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Verizon Can't Do Math
Blogger George Vaccaro recently had a problem with his Verizon based on an unfortunate miscommunication of currency. The crux of the matter was that he was quoted .002 cents per kilobyte for data during a trip to Canada but was charged .002 dollars. Normally this would have been an easy fix, however several humorous calls later the Verizon reps still were unable to discern between the difference between the two rates. You really have to hear it to believe it. Kudos George, you have the patience of a saint.
they did it on purpose; i used to work on one of their dsl tech support contracts and it was a nightmare to say the least.
lose != loose
Looks like decimal numbers just don't make any cents to their customer service reps.
On a more serious note, it also looks like they can't read or spell, since the rep read "$0.002/KB Sent" as "0.002 cents/KB," as evidenced in the call.
The only real issue is: did Mr. Vaccaro know - or have good reason to believe - that there was a mistake made when the rate of 0.002 cents/kb was quoted to him? To accept a contract knowing that it is based on a mistake is dishonest. It's morally on par with keeping the extra money when a clerk accidently hands you too much change.
I'm curious what he would have done if Verizon had quoted him the correct rate, and if he had been the one to make a mistake, perhaps by accidentally making the check to Verizon for 100 times too much. What would he say then if Verizon kept the entire amount?
If he didn't know, then the only story is that lots of stupid people work for the sales departments at cell phone companies. And that is not news.
Appearantly Verizon is trying ignorance.
Sad...
According to his blog, Verizon has contacted him and said they'd waive half of the data charges. They still don't get it.
Was the rep made aware that he was being recorded like we are when we call most type of support department, weather it being bill or technical or whatever?
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
.002 cents times 35893
What I want to know is whether this is intentional on behalf of Verizon. There's speculation on Dude Who Got Screwed's blog that the reps are trained to quote the wrong rate and that now everyone will be checking their Verizon bills, hence their offer to settle for half the amount.
I wouldn't put it past them. They sent the guy an email with the offer that said, "Please respond to this email if you would like to accept this offer."
Now that I think of it, I think I'll be sending out a new round of "Let's go out together!" emails with the aforementioned phrase attached.
Welcome to the new world. Listening to this was downright painful.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
The other day I had to help someone in payroll understand that 0.5 ("point five") hours really is equal to 0.50 ("point fifty") hours.
Don't they teach this stuff in 5th grade anymore?
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
Verizon can do math. When they make a mistake that costs them money because they thought 1 cent > 1 dollar, then I'll believe it's math, and not robbery, that's at work.
--
make install -not war
This is what happens to those who flunked out of.. grade 4 math.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
The problem is the fucking retard reps looks at the following:
.002 cents.
$0.002/min and translate that into their heads as
Verizon should be embarrassed that they hire such moronic individuals. The can't do basic math and are illiterate to boot.
Fedaykin
To make sure the shop doesn't cheat you in the long run, you absolutely need to take the extra money when a mistake is made. (Assuming equal propensity for making mistakes) Second. Most supermarkets and high volume shops have an appalling record on price shown on sales items and what is used when the items are scanned. For supermarkets like Tom Thumb it is like 1 in 5 there is a problem with. They use to have a system so the would double the value of any errors but the stopped this as it became too expensive. Kid you not.
Help fight continental drift.
In your Internet browser (probably an icon with a big blue E in your case) type "www.google.com" (without the quotes) into your address bar (the area near the top of the screen with a funny string starting "http://"). Next type ".002 cents * 35893 in dollars" (without the quotes) press enter and look at the answer.
(In reality, this would not work as you would never be able to get someone this dim to understand what the address bar was, even with patient explanation.)
There is sometimes a legitimate use for lawyers in the US. This is one of them. Verizon must be forced to train their service staff sufficiently that others do not get burnt by this kind of problem.
I'm going to have nightmares. This Peter from Office Space ("Corporate Account [jibberish] speaking, Just a moment").
I bet that customer service rep was a fat redhead too.
Come on people, we don't need a video on this thing. As a user on limited bandwidth, this is the type of bloat I expect from Microsoft.
And I thought I sucked at math when I couldn't remember how eigenvectors work the other day...
Thank you Verizon for lowering the bar for me.
Does Verizon pull the lowest scoring math results to be hired to deal with the bills?
This makes no sense that it someone can't see the difference between 0.002 cents and 0.002 dollars.
WHAT THE HELL IS THEIR MALFUNCTION?
..::ALWAYS : watching::..
Those idiots have quoted exactly the same rate to me in the past: "0.002 cents/kB." I had heard previous reports of them making the same mistake, and thankfully did not believe the quote.
Correcting the Verizon salesboy proved, as you might guess, futile.
of the proverbial fecal matter begin to make contact with the fan blades.
VZW PR managers should soon be seen holding their noses.
It is very simple, well, seemingly so. I would bring an elementary school math teacher and a professional engineer along with a nice big chart/slideshow that shows the conversion from cents to dollars step by step and that .002 cents = .00002 dollars with the whole to convert cents to dollars rule of moving the decimal point two places to the left from an elementary school math book scanned in on the chart/slideshow. And if there is confusion as to that, then have the elementary school math teacher start teaching the lesson on converting cents to dollars and the lesson on how fractions of a cent can be used to calculate a fraction of a dollar. And finally have the professional engineer who is certified by the state (thus needs to understand fraction and decimal place mathematics) certify the correct conversion of the number (or a finance professor from a local college who might be interested in studying the lack of knowledge and understanding many people have when it comes to money).
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
He should have started out the call by asking simply if they charge 0.002 dollars or 0.00002 dollars per kilobyte. Just never use the word "cent" in your side of the conversation.
But here's a way to make it maybe a bit clearer over the phone (or in text): If you are selling apples at 5 dollars/pound, and I buy 10 pounds, then we can look at that like this:
5 dollars/pound * 10 pounds. The "pounds" units cancel out (that's the important part to get across) and you are left with 5 * 10 _dollars_.
With this guy, forget the dollars. Start with cents:
We have 0.002 cents/KB. Then we have a usage of 35893 KB.
0.002 cents/KB * 35893 KB. Just like above, the KB cancel out and we are left with 0.002 * 35893 cents. That's CENTS, not DOLLARS.
And how much is that?
Well do the math, and we get 71.19 cents.
How many cents in a dollar? 100.
So that's ($0.71). Ugh. I have to hand it to the guy for being so unbelievably patient with the reps.
Here's a link to have google do the calculation (complete with units!): Have Google calculate it for Verizon
coding is life
I just love the continuing bemused, dumbstruck silences from the Verizon guy. Every time George tries to explain math, you can almost hear the rep's brain overload...
I thought I'd had some bad 'phone service experiences, but this just takes the cake.
|>
Here be Dragons
I wanted to write Verizon Wireless directly to thank them for providing us with such excruciating entertainment.
Funny thing...The link now leads to a page to purchase new Verizon products instead.
Does anyone at Verizon begin to understand the nature of this public relations fiasco yet?
Sadly, if you don't get it in writing, you can't really prove anything. Even a recording of the original call might help, but if their rates are posted anywhere in writing (or on his contract) he's basically never going to get the allegedly quoted price.
It is hilarious, though, that the CSRs don't know the difference between dollars and cents.
This is the perfect example of why we need math to be taught in elementary and high schools. Anyone who questions the value of arithmetic in everyday life needs to hear this. [kidding] Oh, and this is also a good argument for outsourcing the call center to India. Indians are good at math ;)
[/kidding]
Serves them right for hiring ex US government accountants. These are the same abaccus toting chimps that used to "balance" the military's budget. Come on it's just two bloody decimal places what's the big deal?
It's nice that he recorded the conversations. What he needs to do next is write a letter (not an email) and mail it to them explaining the problem, specifying a date that he expects it to be resolved by, and state that he requests a confirmation letter be sent to very that the bill has been corrected. Document everything. Write down dates, times, phone numbers called, and names. If that doesn't work, follow up with a second letter stating that you feel they are not acting in good faith, give a second date for them to comply, and add at the bottom that the letter is being CC'd to the Public Utilities Commission. Then forward a copy of the two letters to the local PUC with a a cover letter explaining the problem and asking that they investigate. Phone companies HATE the PUC and they will jump when you mention them.
Every time I've had an issue with the phone company this always resolves it. I've only had to write to the PUC about a company twice. Usually mentioning the PUC to the company will wake them up without you having to write a letter.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
You were transferred to supervisors. You should request to be transferred to someone who got an A in high school math. Odds are good there are one or two underachievers hiding in the call center, but there is no way in hell a person like that would get promoted to (or want to be promoted to) supervisor. On the next call, just say "Please go from cube to cube and ask each employee what their best high school math grade was. When someone says 'A' rather than 'huh?' or 'freshman', or anything else: transfer me to them."
You're right on target. This is exactly where the whole confusion comes from - it's like an Abbott and Costello routine. The verizon rep is (well, half the time at least) saying "sent", as in, 0.002 / kb sent, while George is consistently saying "cent". So the rep gets confused on and off, but he doesn't really understand why - there's logic to what George is saying, he realizes that, but at the same time, his computer screen seems right too ... and neither one of them seems to realize what the misunderstanding is.
Halfway through, I couldn't take it any more.
This piece is priceless. (no pun intended) I just can't believe ... how both reps (I'm listening at 26 minute point) are so out of touch with basic math. Is this representative of US school system? I sure hope it's not, and I can see that there are lots of smart people from US and who can do 100 times better math than me, but c'mon! These people are worse than anyone who has gone through elementary school in Europe (or pretty much anywhere where schools still teach math and basic conversions).
This tape is at the same time very funny and extremely frustrating. I'm happy he made it available on the net. I hope it gets picked up by mainstream media.
How would someone know if a price is wrong, anyway? I don't know about you, but I don't go make a whole study of an industry to determine if a low price is indeed feasible, economically sustainable, etc. Plus, there are promotional prices, occasionally predatory pricing, someone dumping a product to clear their stock, etc. Even for telcos, how would I know? Maybe they just installed a fatter cable and they can afford to give the bandwidth away, for all I know. If someone displays a price, I'm going to assume that that's actually the price they want to sell the damn thing or service for.
As for stupid people working for the sales departments, I'd say then it's the company's problem, isn't it? If you hire some guy to sell, say, used cars, and he sells a car for $4000 instead of $40,000, then you'd at least fire him, no? Maybe even start making sure you start hiring smarter people, or at least training them, no?
Year after year of quotting the wrong prices and TOS and then switching on the customers is hardly excusable any more. Because that's what the telcos everywhere seem to have already made a tradition of. I'm sorry, but after all this time I'm no longer buying the crap "teh oops, it was out sales rep that forgot to tell you about the hidden charges / right price / kick in the nuts that's not even in the fine print / etc" excuse.
Honestly, while I won't condone being dishonest as a customer either, I see it as equally dishonest to lure the customer with a low price, then demand that he pays a huge extra. Or at the very least baiting someone with one price and switching to another _looks_ so much like a genuine dishonest tactic (on the part of the provider or of the sales rep or whatever) that you just have to wonder if it's real stupidity. Or, you know, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then maybe it isn't fish. The choice of a provider over another was based on that low price. If you knew the real price from the start, maybe you'd have picked another provider, or maybe used the service differently, or whatever. There's a non-zero probability there, and the incentive too, that it wasn't an error there, but a genuine scam.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
He knows it was meant to be $.002, after the fact, but he was quoted 0.002 cents before making the calls so that's what he should pay. He was trying to explain dollars and cents to the guy.
~CGameProgrammer( );
...should teach these people a lesson and pay them their salary in cents!
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
If I were in George's shoes, here's what my reply would be:
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Verizon has been suitably spanked in public and there's no way they are going to actually charge him ANYTHING once this hits more mainstream media. Mainstream media loves preying on corporate incompetence. Now he just needs to sit and wait while somebody with a brain in the organization gets wind of this and they offer him bags of money so he doesn't sue their corporate ass off.
This why not to out source jobs to india. Those poor uneducated people are unable do basic math.
\
I'd pay the correct 72 cents (well, 71.786 cents if you can manage it) on the invoice and then wait for someone from their accounts to phone you up about it.
This is a very patient man, but he needs more experience talking to idiots. He kept talking above them. They kept reciting the seeds of their own defeat, but instead of nailing them on it, he tried to educate them and bring them up to his level. He could have defeated them on their own level. Regardless, Verizon hire idiots supervised by idiots.
The only way this blog campaign is going to be successful is if Verizon realizes they're creating a public relations problem. Therefore I recommend people email Verizon, referencing the customer's blog and name (George Vaccaro), and explain why his bill should be 72 cents instead of 72 dollars. Here's a link to Verizon's email page:
. jsp
.002 cents to .002 bananas. Multiply by 3600 and you get 72 bananas. Now since we switched cents to bananas, replace bananas with cents and you get 72 cents. Which is $0.72. I don't believe explaining the difference without a switch in units has been effective in either the phone calls or the emails.
:)
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email
I really like the bananas explanation: Convert
Good luck everyone!
my blog
I'm listening the recording second time now. At around 7 minutes he asks the rep to multiply the kilobytes and rate and calculate _dollars_. Maybe he should've asked the rep to multiply kilobytes, rate and give him the total amount in _cents_. If he could get that right... Maybe the rep could then convert the ~70 cents into dollars.
This is about 16 minutes in:
.002 dollars and .002 cents? .002 dollars.
George: Do you recognize there is a difference between one dollar and one cent?
Andrea: Definitely.
George: Do you recognize there is a difference between half a dollar and half a cent?
Andrea: Definitely.
George: Do you therefore recognize there is a difference between
Andrea: No... There's no
George: Of course there is.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Pay them the quoted price. Then it would be up to them to try and reclaim the extra. Put the onus on them and take it off yourself.
Here http://www.codepoetry.net/2006/07/07/verizon_reall y_bad_at_math is another case of bad verizon math.
Have you listened to the audio? Trust me, listen to it before you make any excuses for them.
In the unabridged version of the mp3, Andrea leaves her direct line in case George needs to contact her. Note, she did this after he told her that the recording would be posted.
l
I checked the number - it would appear many people have already left her kind words.
http://media.putfile.com/Andreas-Voicemail-is-Ful
This arithmetic educational problem reminds me of the difficulty explaining to people that because there is no year zero, the year 2000 means that during 2000 we were "in" the 2000th year and thus were completing the final year of the 20th century as well as completing the final year of the 2nd millennium, and that 2001 was the beginning of the 21st century and the 3rd millennium. I did acknowledge to those with whom I argued the point that I did not dispute that in 1900 the exact same issue came up and a similar percentage of the populace celebrated the new century a year too early. That other people made the same error did not remove the error. And I also aceeded the point that our modern calendar is quite recent (all of history-wise) and wasn't in use in year 1 A.D (obviously), but that point too didn't change the basis of the simple arithmetic of the 2000-is-the-last-year-of-the-20th-century-and-2nd- millennium issue.
Maybe she has set the limit to .002 days?
That depends very much on the circumstances; in general, companies cannot simply say one thing and then write something else into the contract.
This isn't about a failure in math. This isn't about someone who didn't know the difference between $0.002 and $0.00002. If you think this is a math problem then you are not clearly following the money. This is a larceny problem. This is about a problem regarding a profound lack of honesty. This is about a company with an apparent policy of lying, cheating, and stealing from their customers.
:-)
This is not mysterious. This is not even funnny. Unless Verizon can clearly show me that they've chosen to staff their support teams from tech to top supervisors with the mentally handicapped, then the only sane conclusion is that their customer service (forgive the ephemism), is expressly designed to bludgeon, exhaust, and abuse customers into accepting that they've been lied to and cheated. This is not ignorance. This is not stupidity. This is an utter vacuum of integrity. This is a den of thieves. Let the buyer beware.
By the way, just sharing my own personal experience, yours may vary, but I traded with Verizon a few years back... I received several outrageous charges. I tried to get some service. I called dozens of times, attempted access through all of their phone and online resources. I never achieved a single meaningful interaction with a single employee of Verizon, and to this day would rather french kiss a wall outlet, or spend long hours sitting on a CuisinArt with the frape' button depressed, than do business with them again. Isn't somehow nice to see some things never change
--Genda
This is really hilarious ... but to say the truth my students (the new ones from this latter educations changes) probably would have the same problem.
... it's even better (or worst :) ) ... so, I believe that the operator is not actually ling to the customer, there is the real hypothesis that the operator doesn't understand the difference.
I get mad with many of them because they all think that zero point 15 cents is actually bigger than zero point 6 cents.
And if I get units in the mixture
RTFA, or LTTFA(Listen To The F**cking Article) rather
No wonder people from the U.S. can't handle the Metric system!
http://outcampaign.org/
Verizon can't find it's own ass with two hands, a flashlight, a map, GPS, a sherpa, long range scanners and an ass finding radar.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
If it was $0.002 - or 0.2 cents - then downloading this page (which is 176kB not including graphics), then it would cost you 35 cents. That seems excessively steep to me.
Yes, it's simple math. Yes, all of the Verizon people should have known better. But I can comprehend their mindset, as incorrect as it is. I still find the whole ".002 dollars is the same thing as .002 cents" thing amazing though, especially when the customer clearly then has them differentiate 2 dollars from 2 cents, and half a dollar from half a cent.
The only way I can think of to explain it better to them is to tell them to get out a pen and pad. Write down the number for "one dollar". What did you write down? One point zero zero? Good. Make sure you have the little dollar sign at the front. Now write down the number for "half a dollar." Point five zero? Good. Again, make sure you have that dollar symbol. Now write it down with the "cents" symbol. The amount was "fifty cents", so you would write five zero cents-sign, right? Now write down the number for one cent. Point zero one with a dollar sign? Good. Writing it down as cents it would be one and the cents-sign, correct? Do you see how "point zero one dollars" is the same as "one cent"? Now half a cent. Point zero zero five with a dollar sign? Good. Is "half a cent" the same as "point five cents"? Yes? Good. So we can write that down as point five with a cent sign. Do you see how 'point five cents' and 'point zero zero five dollars' are the same? That they are the same value, but when you write it as 'dollars', it has two extra zeroes? Now write down one tenth of a cent. Not one tenth of a DOLLAR, but one tenth of a CENT. This would be one tenth of a penny. Something that you can get ten for a penny. Did you write down point zero zero zero one dollars? Again, if you write it as cents, it would be point zero one cents. Two extra zeroes when you are expressing it as dollars, yet it is the same value. So I was charged point zero zero two CENTS. Which, to convert to dollars, would be point zero zero zero zero two DOLLARS.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
In Other News, Verizon is now getting into the sales of Livestock. The going rate is $0.002 for 71.78 Emus. However, Emus are not Gnus, nor are they sold with a GPL.
Lobbyists in Congress were quite happy to slide funding for 71.78 Congressional Libraries, which is how the William Jefferson Clinton library came about. But then, that was cut short, so it became the 0.78th library.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I was going to mod this up (or funny really), but I just have to comment instead. This is the point in the call I about fell off my chair laughing hysterically. It's best if you can listen to it, because you get the unbearably long pause right after George asks the 3rd question. I can almost see the gears in her brain chunking along, desperately attempting to understand how a dollar amount could possibly begin with a decimal point, but just... not... quite... getting... there.
.002 dollars and .002 cents? .002 dollars.
.002 dollars per KB is exactly the rate poor George is being charged by the billing system. I'm not sure I'll be able to make it through the rest of the call, I can't stop listening to that little snippet.
.002 dollars!
George: Do you therefore recognize there is a difference between
(pregnant pause)
Andrea: No.... There's no
Of course,
There's no
The audio is hilarious, sad, and extremely frustrating all at the same time. George has so much more patience than I would have.
They have no will to communicate and they are just trying to get more money from your pocket. I say, sue them.
Kudos to the guy for not exploding. Seriously though, I very much doubt the reps either (a) missed to lesson on decimal notation or (b) had a frontal lobotomy (although the second option is ruled out by the non-slurred speach)... it's just crime, pure and simple.
I think the best way to get them to see the error might be to firstly help them generate the correct $71 from the real $0.002 figure.
.002 dollar rate and multiply it by 35,893KB I get charged 71.786 dollars, just over 71 DOLLARS. That is what your computer system is correctly doing.
.002 CENT rate which you are incorrectly quoting me, and multiply it by 35,893KB, we actually get 71.786 cents... so only just over 71 CENTS for the whole bill - a huge difference.
.002 cents, how much would it cost me for 1KB? .002 cents
.02 cents
.2 cents .2 cents is less than half of a single cent.
.002 CENTS is quoting a tiny fraction of a cent per KB. .002 dollars, which is a pretty big fraction of a cent - a fifth of a cent in fact.
.002 cents, like you have been, you are actually telling them it is dollarsign 0 point 0 0 0 0 2 which is 100 times smaller."
That way they understand where the computer's figure is coming from.
Then show them examples of how it works for cents, starting at a 'multiplied by one' example, focusing on the CENTS unit in the answer.
For example:
"If we take the
But if we take the
I'm going to walk you through some logic to make that clear. Please use your calculator to quote me some prices.
At your quoted price of
A:
how much for 10 KB?
A:
how much for 100 KB?
A:
Ok, so we're almost at a whole cent being charged now.
how much for 1,000 KB?
A: 2 cents
Right, we are now into whole cents, but we are still a long long way from whole dollars.
how much for 10,000 KB?
A: 20 cents
Ok, how much for 100,000 KB?
A: 200 cents
So 200 cents is 2 dollars, so if I used that 100,000 KB, it should cost me 2 dollars - OK?
A: sure
2 dollars - cool.
So when I use less that half that amount of KB you have in fact charged me a whopping 71 dollars!
The reason is that quoting
Your actual charges are
If you see written down in your prices dollarsign 0 point 0 0 2 you need to tell customers it is '.002 dollars'.
If you call it
I ran into this sort of problem just last week, with an otherwise competent employee trying to do some measurements for a recipe. The recipe was given to her over the phone, and the person only specified the numbers. It turned out the numbers were in fluid ounces but her measuring device was labeled in millileters, so she ended up flip-flopping randomly between fl. oz. and ml in her calculations, leading to all sorts of problems.
This audio was definitely good entertainment; just listening to the man's incredible patience trying to unsuccessfully explain to a couple oafs the difference between dollars and cents was both painful and hilarious. He was smart when he called because he was verbally (verbally is key) quoted "point zero zero two cents", and made sure they got that specifically in the contract. It is highly probable the Verizon employee on the other end of the line saw "$0.002" and erroneously read aloud "point zero zero two cents". Now, he did sign the contract, and it probably did say $0.002 in it, but how can you fault him when the Verizon rep said something on the phone and it turns out to be different in the contract? It even says $0.002 (clearly dollars) on Verizon's website: http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/businessSolutio ns/global/globalaccesspriceandcoverage.jsp?section =smallMediumBusine
The problem here is these Verizon reps. Because they see a decimal together with a $, they are inclined to read "cents" instead of the proper "dollars". They probably will end up costing their company a lot of bad publicity, and around $70. (That's dollars:)
I recall a similar case although it was minor: McDonald's (or some other joint) had some deal for .99 cents (they actually had the cents symbol and not $), and a guy went in and ordered 10 of them and was charged around $10 when he should have been charged $1. It was settled in his favor, of course, but this Verizon case is different because he was verbally given something different than what he was given in print. Still, I believe this guy has everything going for him.
Just my two cents. :)
that Verizon supervisor could be making more money then you. The world is a harsh, harsh place.
And George, if they say you were quoted 0.002 cents and insist on it, then capitalize on that dammit!. You keep trying to get them to do the math..don't.
Then show them examples of how it works for cents, starting at a 'multiplied by one' example
.01 times 100 using her desk calculator...
.002, she will tap 10 * .002 in the calculator, get .02 and tell you "2 cents", or at best that will happen at the 1000 * .002 where she will say "2 dollars" for sure. .002 cents how can 10KB be 2 cents") to get around that, because every step is calculated and reasoned independently.
Somewhere in the audio the call supervisor calculates
So, I don't think she would find the results you use as examples by inferring from the previous example.
When 1KB is
No amount of reasoning ("when 1KB is
Well, listening to that was simply painful... however, despite their inability to understand so, they were correct. According to this link: http://www.hp.com/sbso/wireless/MNY50079-VZAccessP ricing-V1b.pdf
.002 dollars.
.002 cent/kb, by 30,000 kb (whatever it was), and they come out with 71.## dollars. He should stop there, and say, where did the dollar come from. I know he did it somewhat, but he'd go into complaining about it, saying they forgot the translation. Although they SHOULD have realized that when he complained, since they didn't the first 2 times, he should have just stuck on that part. .002 cents/kb times X kb, gives an answer in cent's. therefore the calculator answer of 71.## is 71.## cents. thus 0.71## dollars.
.5 cents and .5 dollars? (immediately) yes. So you see the difference between .002 cents and .002 dollars? (Long pause) No. That's just beyond silly. Same number, different unit, if the units are not equivalent then they MUST be different, irrelevant of whether you understand the number, as long as it is the same.
The going price is INDEED $0.002. So yeah, it was
But still, wow... I don't know how they didn't get it. There was only 1 flaw in his explanations, but that flaw should not have affected their understanding. The only problem I see, is that after they multiplied
Not to say he didn't do that to the point that any college grad would understand, but the only thing I can think of is trapping them in their own reasoning. You multiply cents per kb, by kb, and what do you get? You say dollar, but that means that means that you multiplied by dollars per kb. Math isn't even the problem there, its their inability to keep track of a unit. Now I have trouble with that on my engineering stuff, but that's Coulomb-seconds per amp-meters or something, you get into multiply numerator and denominator terms it gets all screwy. The best plan would be to explain, you multiply cent's per kilobyte by kilobyte, you get the amount of cents that correspond to your kilobyte usage. So even though 71.## may look like a dollar notation, you have just calculated cents.
What made me wince was the how they respond to the examples. You know the difference between 1 cent and 1 dollar? (immediately) yes. You know the difference between half a cent and half a dollar, or
Sorry... just when I see something like this.... I worry about the human race, that somebody who controls part of a powerful company can't even keep EXAMPLES straight, much less currency.
tech support no matter where you do it has its share of problems. i have a feeling if you had an Indian guy with an accent he would have undertood the problem. it his high time that we look at where is our education system going.
anyway very hilarious
Let's assume that the person just hasn't comprehended the numbers, and isn't lying.
Why can't they? because the misunderstanding is based on the known figure of $0.002 is the same as 0.002 cents, they know that figure to be true, so because they don't recognize the difference between 0.002 dollars and 0.002 cents, you have to build up from what they know is true, you sadly can't do the reverse, i.e. go from what you know to be true and incrementally prove that the final step, which proves them wrong, is true as well, because they know that what they know is the truth, so you can't prove that something they know to be true is false.. But, you can show them that what they've derived from their truth isn't true.
What do they know is true, they know that 0.002 cents is the true number. As we humans are a visual lot, we have to start with writing down the truths.
This is what I'd have asked the representative to do:
1) Write down on a piece of paper: 1KB * 0.002 cents/KB = 0.002 cents
2) Write down under it: 5KB * 0.002 cents/KB = 0.01 cents
3) Write down under that: 50KB * 0.002 cents = 0.1 cents
4) Write down under that: 500KB * 0.002 cents = 1 cent
5) Write down under that: 5,000KB * 0.002 cents = 10 cents
6) Write down under that 50,000 * 0.002 cents = 100 cents. And 100 cents = 1 dollar
Then step 7 would be to see if you can explain that 35,000 KB is less than 50,000 KB, thus your bill should be less than a dollar.
Of course, you have to verify each step to be true, and see if they would disagree at any stage. I would be very interested to know if they would actually disagree at any step, maybe step 2 would be a hard one, as you have to perhaps explain that 5*2 = 10 (and thus 5*0.002 is 0.01), but he could use a calculator to verify that, and after that it should be easy..
K.
People DO actually need to know how to do math in their everyday jobs!
Don't worry if you're a kleptomaniac, you can always take something for it.
Well, if reading $0.002 as "0.002 cents" is such a common mistake, then using prices less then 1 cent should be avoided. "$2 per Mb" would not have caused any misunderstanding. But probably Verizon marketeers need some misunderstanding...
Did anybody else notice, late in the call while talking to the female rep, he was extremely close to getting her to understand, but he missed the chance. When he was doing his 1 cent, 100 kilobytes example and she was using a calculator, he said "use the calculator to multiply 1 cent by 100 kilobytes". She then said "OK, so I enter .01 into the calculator". At that point there he should have stopped her and said, "why did you enter .01 when the rate is 1 cent?" He did get her to admit that half a cent is .005, but then he dropped it there. I think she might have figured it out if he'd continued on this line ... ultimately getting her to enter .00002 on the calculator instead of .002 (just like she entered .01 instead of 1, etc). -Sigh- It was painful to listen to, but not terribly surprising. In my mind the root problem is that most people blindly accept whatever the computer is telling them.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
I wanted to see how far this story has spread, so I googled "verizon bad math." The first hit was this. It looks like Verizon goes out of their way to hire the cheapest programmers they can. Which brings up a question: Which of you slashdotters work for Verizon? : p
This guy's the limit!
You know, over in the http://www.cheapassgamer.com/ forums, we have a word for the type of price break this guy was going for. It's called a "scam".
He's attempting to take advantage of the fact that Verizon CSRs aren't the sharpest, and that if you repeat the word cents enough and show someone a weird value in dollars, they're liable to call it cents. He -knew- it wasn't really 0.002 cents/KB, or else he wouldn't have gone through that whole (apparently useless) effort of having them note it in the file.
Yes, Verizon's employees are being rather uniformly dense, but he's being extremely disingenuous about this whole thing. As was noted earlier in this thread, the prices are posted on Verizon's website. Were I him, I'd take the $36 offer and thank my lucky stars I managed to put something over on Verizon.
He owes Verizon about $0.72, and should pay them $0.72 and no more. If they already hit his credit card for $72, he should call his credit card company and play them the recording he made. Credit card companies sure as hell understand money.
My favorite line has got to be that they were having a difference of opinion.
I completely agree.
In fact, all of my incorrect answers on every math test I ever took need to be retroactively changed to correct as I was obviously having a difference of opinion with my teachers.
In addition, I will be petitioning my congressman to propose legislation to change the meaning of calculus to correspond with my own personal perception of reality.
Thank you, thank you, Verizon rep for inspiring me to believe in myself and not these self righteous eggheads that think logic and reason can prove anything.
I am writing in regards to the incident recorded at http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/ for the charges of George Vaccaro. He was originally quoted at a rate of .002cents/kb, and this was confirmed multiple times by customer service reps as the rate he was expected to pay. In doing the proper math, his bill should result in a charge of 72cents, not the $72 he has been billed.
What concerns me is not that he may have been misquoted, but that the quote was confirmed to be correct multiple times, and yet, the billing charge remains the same, stated multiple times, due to a simple math error. I fear this lack of proper math skills in both quoting and billing will be applied to my account. I will not continue to have an account with a company that cannot rectify its own math, as I fear this incorrect math will be applied to my account, and it too will result in a bill that is *100 times* larger than it should be.
Verizon needs to correct this math error, charge him the rate he was quoted, and repeatedly confirmed, which results in a charge 72cents, or $0.72, and also publicly apologize not only for the frustration and time loss it has caused to Mr. Vaccaro, but also to assure other customers that they will not be treated the in the same fashion.
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
This is a particularly blatant and well-documented example, but it's not surprising. Verizon regularly lies to consumers, actively or by omission.
When I signed up, I had no credit history, so they charged me a large deposit which was to be returned after a year. When I called after over a year asking where my check was, they told me that I had to request the deposit to be returned. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Why didn't they mention this when I started the account? They were simply hoping I would forget that I'd paid the deposit or wouldn't be willing to fight them for it. How many deposits have they just kept in this way? Or put another way, how much of other people's money became Verizon's because of deception? How much money did they steal?
But what can you do about it? There's no accountability. "George" and "Andrea" are either absolutely incompetent or dishonest, but they don't even tell you their full names. You can't link the voices on the phone to actual people. Even if you could, there's no channel to complain about them. And there's certainly no way to link the absence of an action to a specific person, so there's certainly no way to hold them accountable for not sending my check. And unfortunately, you can't just switch to a more honest phone company, because I don't believe such a creature exists.
I think the most that can be done is to take them to small claims court each time. If you go through all the work to do so, you'll almost certainly win. But they're betting most people don't have the time to fight them, and...well, they're right.
Mmm, yes. Cingular is nice. They're often willing to forgive half or all of an overage charge if it's your first month with a new service and you underestimated your usage.
ttuttle is a rankmaniac
Bub if you are gonna take on a major machine like this dont screw up your own math when you reply.
BTW. Good luck. Your gonna need it.
Procrastinating life a way at a rapid rate of speed.
Who ARE these people? How can they be allowed to operate a computer or have a job? This is the simplest problem that was strung out to 23 minutes! Now, one innumerate idiot may slip through the net, but a string of them? Working in the same place?
This is the funniest thing I've heard in ages. I sincerely hope that the bill is yet to be paid. The google answer of typing ".002 cents per KB times 35893 KB" is just superb. He should ring back and ask them to do that for a response. Really, can someone in the US PLEASE do this??
... ask Revenue Canada how they charge interest on income tax owing and they'll tell you they charge "8% compound daily interest"! (If you owed $1.00 today you'd owe $1.03 million in just over six months time!!!)
When in fact Revenue Canada only charges 8% annual interest compounded daily. (or ~0.02% compound daily interest).
I refuse to pay my taxes until they stop lying to the public and trying to intimidate people by threatening insane interest rates that they do not actually charge.
As they say, hindsight is 20/20. However he should not be forced to hand over more then he was originally quoted. As he was given a quote over the phone (and not only did he clarify the quote but he had it written down which COULD be written down as "0.002 cents" rather then "$0.002") he couldn't realize Verizon employees were trained to be so fucking stupid. As such he should be allowed to pay what he was quoted.
But as we all know 0.002 is a universal number that cannot be changed by adding a unit to it. So therefore 0.002 is an infinite amount of time (or at least a really long amount of time as there is no difference between 0.002 millennium and 0.002 days), so it shouldn't be full yet. At least in Verizon's world.
Someone has already mentioned this, but it seems to have gotten lost in the mathematics misunderstanding frey.
.002 cents per Kb?" "Uhh, yes, sir, per Kb sent."
What the 1st supervisor actually said was ".002 per Kb Sent". He didn't say if the ".002" was in dollars or cents, nor did he denote if it was a "$" attached to the front of that number, or if there was a "c" on the back of it. He may have assumed that the called knew that there was a $ on the front.
So, assuming there was a $ in front of the per Kb rate, the company was correct. Perhaps the caller heard "cents" rather then "sent". I could understand that happening, even under further questioning; "That's
Even thought this may have been the case, the phone reps were still a bit silly in their calculations.
props to george for first of all recording this to show the simple stupidity of some people to do a math conversion. dollars != cents, yet this "supervisor" can't even realize that cents is 1/100 of a dollar when he's converting. and props to george for his patience. i'd have been yelling at these people after two minutes of their pure stupidity, but that's just b/c i'm not really that patient. i love how the manager is like "what do you mean .002 cents and .002 dollars". he explains it clearly but they still don't get that a partial cent is "possible" but you know that you aren't just going to use ONLY 1kb. it takes several hundred or thousand kb to even connect to a mobile network [at least on my phone]. these people need to go to take a math class every once in a while.
"High School diploma required" is probably all this job requires. I know plenty of people who barely passed h.s. math that could probably figure this out. how stupid.
I listened to your recording (part of it), and it is like Verizon reps are confused by any number below 1. So, maybe this will work:
.002 cents/kb
:)
1) make then acknowledge the rate is
2) ask them to calculate the bill in cents (make them say cents)
3) ask them to convert that number in dollars
4) say that you have been charged $71 instead and ask for correction (without mentioning where the error come from)
and tell us if that works
It took me some time, but I understood what was the cause of the confusion. They have in their mind only dollars, so when they write 0.1, they mean dollars, BUT if the 0.1 dollars gets to be some cents and not a full dollar they think they should write it as 0.1 cents. For example, 0.002 cent/KB actually means to them 0.002 dollars/KB which of course is less than a dollar (it is even less than a cent), so they write it as 0.002 cents. They mean 0.002 dollars/KB cents...
I don't know if I made myself clear, this is really some wacky logic verizon has...
"Are you calling to complain about a mathematical error in your billing? If yes, press 1 now to speak to a representative in a country with a more effective educational system than yours, if no, press 2."
I was wondering if school kids here understood the difference, I tried this with two 6th grade students and both of them knew the difference.. I am amazed that more than a couple of adults at Verizon could not figure it out.. not exactly a scientific study but I seriously feel that the US needs to work on its education system, particular schools and high schools. The US universities are of excellent quality but I figure only a very small proportion of your population would be eligible to study there given their understanding of basic school education. Vasanth
I have had this very same problem over in the UK. Orange mobile quoted me in pence/kb for their Orange World internet (free for evening and weekends, charged at fixed rate in the day). I got my first months bill in at nearly £300. They made exactly the same 100 fold conversion error in the quote. Unfortunately for me they wouldn't recognise the error, and had to pay.
Forgoing the fact that they misrepresented the Orange World internet completely by saying it was entirely free, it's still a poor show on Orange's part.
I guess I am just lucky it's free in the evenings and weekends, I would hate to see my bill otherwise.
This is a lesson to UK Orange customers, buy an unlimited Vodafone PCMCIA card. It's much cheaper.
Signature v3.0, now with 42% less memory usage.
Verizon has stated for all to hear that .002 dollars=.002 cents. We should all use Verizon's math and pay all of our Verizon bills in cents.
-FlashFan
Here's the information for Andrea. At the time of posting this, her voicemail box is already full.
Andrea: 1-888-581-1070 (Ext. 2234)
Try actually thinking for yourself. It's quite refreshing.
Yes, it's funny. Yes, it's scary.
No, it's not at all surprising.
This is the result of a whole generation of schoolkids who don't know how to do arithmetic. All they know how to do is work a calculator. These are not the same thing.
And it must be said that the customer here is really not very good at explaining the arithmetic. I understand that he is impatient, angry, resigned, but what he mostly does is repeat himself. He does not explain himself well at all.
Liam P. ~ "Intelligence is a lethal mutation." (me)
Here's my 0.0002 cents, not dollars!!
/. readers probably know. They don't exactly have the best working conditions. There are really a few problems with this call:
While studying at university, I've had the experience of working in call-centers in different positions - all but supervisor (because they were afraid I would actually do a good job!). A lot of tech support is outsourced as many
1) data charges in Canada aren't any higher than the US - though with cross-border use the data rate generally skyrockets, for some reason I don't understand.
2) Employees in sales, support, and supervisor positions in call centers are a mixed-bag. I've seen some only HS, some post-secondary students, some with degrees/diplomas..... and some you never really know if they've been educated. You'll find among these (like the general population) some really smart and some not so smart. And don't forget math is a different type of IQ from language. Though this is really basic math for most of us here, a smart person might not be math smart.
3) I agree the math of the caller is right. Verizon's is clearly in the wrong. If the agent on the phone though credited $70 I'm sure Verizon management or the supervisor in the call center would question the employee. Since some wouldn't understand the math, I'm sure employee would be disciplined or fired. Esp. if an outsourced company is doing the disciplining, I'm sure it would work more to Verizon and not the employee's favor. Don't forget they probably have to handle a lot of credit complaints. Is suddenly every customer right? Not debating the ethics, but I'm sure Verizon would question them.
4) Ever had a bad day at work? Didn't perform as you should? Working in call-centers, most employees get de-motived and don't care about the work. Caller was a nice guy. But in many cases, as I have been, you're not motivated to actually helping people. You don't get extra money. Less time and less credits on call means more job security. Had it been me, I would have credited the guy, but probably passed it onto a supervisor for further 'investigation'. Just to CMA (cover my ass!).
And, like many other jobs, working in call centers is a tireless loop. It was impossible for me after long time trying and with a honours degree in university to find work. My current employer gave me a chance and I'm greatful. Think of those, similar to me, that might be stuck in the same loop. They're not under achieving, they're just not getting other job offers no matter how hard they try. At least think of those people when calling in. Not everyone picking up the phone should be labelled 'stupid'.
that he didn't flip out on the Verizon rep(s). His patience in explaining the same thing over and over again is just incredible. I still doubt he'll get his money back, though.
You need to remove the fractions of a cent first and get the unit of measure in cents (or pennies).
.002 cents per KB. Then 1000 KB would be 2 cents. Make sure person agrees this is correct.
.002 cents/KB, there is a reasonable chance that a judge in small claims court would agree. It would be fun to watch Judge Milian listen to the tape and try and teach the Verizon folks math. That would make for some good TV.
If the rate is
If I used 36 * 1000 KB, that would be 36 * 2 cents = 72 cents.
Sadly, people are easily confused by decimals and fractions (part of our no fractions in a child left behind program -- which 5 out of 3 children fail),.
The solution is to get the unit of measure to FULL CENT values first, and then calculate the result in full cent increments.
You may need to provide a written proof to show how it works, step by step. Sigh.
On the legal front, if they quoted and verified numerous times (which they did) the rate of
I wouldn't involve a lawyer unless your goal is to actually try and prove fraud (a tough fight since clearly they have stupidity as their main defense).
People in India would definitely do the math right.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
http://www.codepoetry.net/2006/07/07/verizon_reall y_bad_at_math
The unseen backdrop to this lamentable problem is the Human Resources Department,
which is yet another corporate bastion that seems devoid of all common sense.
Any applicant for employment at Verizon will be relentlessly prodded with the
latest and greatest theoretical tools for personality assessment, which have all
been carefully designed to reveal the presence of desirable characteristics -- or
the complete lack thereof. Only those few who survive this rigorous vetting will
be permitted to serve the grand ideals of the company.
But yet from these candid examples of employee ineptitude that can be presented
by virtually anyone, there seems to be much trouble within that theoretical paradise.
If you listen to the recording, it suggests that Verizon's reps quote wireless data rates in terms of cents instead of dollars as a matter of routine. I wouldn't be surprised, then, if a large slice of Verizon's wireless-data customers were given bogus, cents-for-dollars quotes. If so, a ton of people -- perhaps even all of Verizon's wireless-data customers -- have been charged 100 times more than they were quoted for data usage.
If cents-for-dollars quoting turns out to be widespread, prepare to see class-action suits.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
The caller should have resorted to fractional reasoning, which is easier and more intuitive than decimals for people without math training, and more easily avoids the cognitive interference from the unit conversion:
.2 means one fifth? .002 means one five hundredth? Divide 1 by 500 on the calculator to check, please. ...Profit! (Obligatory)
1. Can we agree that
2. Can we agree that
3. Can we agree that you've quoted me one five hundredth of a penny for each kB?
4. Can we agree that every 500 kB should therefore cost a penny?
5. Therefore, let's find out how many pennies I owe by dividing 35893 by 500.
6.
I believe this approach would have been more successful.
Y'all know if you get two friends to quit V, and they get two friends to quit V, and so on and so on... well, the problem won't be a problem for long.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Question: is it legal to record and replay this conversation without Verizon's permission?
I, too, was surprised not to hear him using this method, though I would stick to multiples of tens so as not to confuse her. How much for 1kB, 10kB, 100kB and then 10000kB. By continually forcing this method, you should be able to get her to say that 10000kB should cost 20 cents.... repeatedly.
Most CSR's were employee family members working to avoid being leaches. No enthusiasm.
The probation/parolees were the best workers. They did not want to get in trouble and tried to be the most reliable!
Telemarketers were another story!
The only thing new in this world is the history that you don't know.[Harry Truman]
Fractions are difficult for some people. I worked in a deli in high school and people would come in and request 'three fourths' or 'half' a pound of meat or cheese, but the scale read in decimal numbers. We had the following sign hanging behind the scale for one of my coworkers:
one and a half = 1.50
1 pound = 1.00
three quarters = 0.75
two thirds = 0.66
one half = 0.50
one third = 0.33
one quarter = 0.25
What amazed me the most was after working there for a year he still needed to use the sign. And if someone was around he'd typically ask to save time from looking it up. He would frequently ask "What is one pound, point zero one?" Amazing.
Looks like their web designers have had similar issues.
Thanks to everyone for the words of support. So you know, at this point the $72, if I decide to pay it, would be well spent for all the laughs this has provided.
.002 cents?" That just seemed to be the root of the issue so I figured with the management level people I should cut to the chase.
.002 cents/KB, confirmed the rate, the one who wrote the first note in the account. .002 cents/KB on my notes, but then left me a voicemail saying the charges were correct and there would be no credit. Conveniently she never mentioned units in her voicemail, just "point zero zero two." .002 cents/KB but didn't realize I was being billed 100x that rate so I escalated - after asking twice for a supervisor, the third time was a charm.
Thanks also for correcting the people who accuse me of being less than sincere. I'd have to have Jerky Boys skills to have pulled that off not being sincere. After re-listening to it, I wished I had realized how funny it was, and thrown in "oh god, god and baby Jesus help us!"
To clear one thing up that people don't seem to understand, I have the unlimited data plan in the states, and no concept of per KB cost. I was heading to Canada so I called verizon to find the voice and data rates. The rep told me the rate, and I actually worked out roughly in my head and out loud the per megabyte cost - I didn't nail it down to $.02 cents per meg, I just roughly estimated it at $1 per meg - thats the degree of accuracy I cared about. I would spend a few bucks, but I wouldn't spend closer to a hundred. I did think the rate was low enough to think something might be wrong, so I reconfirmed the rate with her - ".002 cents / KB?" - "Yes, thats correct." Then I had her note the quote in my account to be sure.
Also, in the states, since the plan is unlimited, and as many posters have pointed out, you could easily use gigs/month, if you were streaming video or audio ala SlingBox. So the thought that I could pay less than a dollar per meg, even $.02 (if I had computed it exactly) didn't seem impossible, or crazy, just slightly suspicious.
I make a great hourly rate, and this clearly hasn't been worth the hours I've spent for the $71 thats in dispute. It's been about false advertising and the principle that if you quote something at a certain price, you should really charge that price - certainly not 100 x that price, and certainly if the mistake is on your side. And its been pretty hysterical following this thing.
Also, to those who think I could have done better or planned this - I was blindsided by 3 levels of customer service rep thinking that 2/1000s of a $ is the same as 2/1000ths of a cent. I did the best I could while in disbelief, and even confused myself at times. I had talked to 2 other reps, one on a different call, and one before the first supervisor (the handoff is in the beginning of the audio), and they all seemed incapable of understanding basic math, so I thought to myself of the AOL cancellation guy Vincent Ferrari, and said to myself "you better record this."
Also, I had tried other approaches - I didn't always just jump into "do you know the difference between $.002 and
I am really surprised that I haven't gotten any resolution at this point from Verizon, it seems like it could be a huge can of worms for them, but hey, I guess I should't expect much.
Anyway, thanks again for the support, kind words, funny comments etc. I'll keep the blog updated so anyone interested can see the resolution.
Finally, here is the wrap up:
1. Rep who quoted me initially
2. Brie: rep I called first, went through the same stuff, she seemed to get it, even noted
3. Trent: First rep on 1st call, same nonsense, quoted
4. Mike: Supervisor - first guy I battle on the mp3 - as you all heard ".002 cents/KB"
5. Andrea: Floor Manager - ".002 cents/KB... its a matter of opinion"
All 5 confirmed the rate as ".002 cents/KB", the last 4 "thought" this was the same as "$.002/KB" and claimed my bill reflected the quoted rate.
Thanks for playing.
It is for reasons such as this that you should always ask for things in writing. At least this way they can't claim that it you misunderstood what was being offered, since it is written in black and white.
You should talk to a small claims court and find out whether there is any action you can take, in this case. You should also find out whether the recording is suitable evidence, given you didn't tell the operator that the call may be recorded.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
A friend of mine worked for a Verizon call center here in Canada briefly. He hated it and ended up quitting. Anyway, basically what he said was that Verizon felt it was not economically beneficial for a Customer Service Agent to be on the phone helping a customer for more then 12 or 13 minutes. So when a call was reaching that limit they were basically instructed to do whatever it took to end the call and move on.
He said that many of the phone calls he had to deal with were customers who had previously called in and been lied to by the Customer Service Rep so that they could get off the phone with them within the time limit. The customers were understandably confused and/or angry, and I'm certain it would be hard to fix the lie and fix the problem within his own 12 or 13 minutes.
Interestingly enough, having listened to Georges recording I noticed that he wasn't on the phone with 1 single Rep. for any decent length of time, but rather, just kept getting transfered on.
Additionally, my friend said that Verizon would basically do whatever it took to make a sale and that often he would have people phoning in who had been sold a High Speed Internet package at a really great price, but nobody had mentioned to them that they needed a computer to use it.
I myself will never, ever, ever, do business with Verizon. I think they are the shadiest, dirtiest company around. They even out rank MDG.
-hps
Well I finally got to talk to them. They didn't want to tell me how much it would cost
because I was not the authorized person on the account.
So I went and got my girlfriend on the phone so she could ask them how much the
cancellation penalties would be. The answer is $175 per line.
They way we feel right now, we just might pay it. Maybe I can go to small claims to
get the $160 for the phone they gave to somebody else.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
Sorry to spoil some of the Verizon-bashing, but I think people are forgetting a core issue:
The problem here is that $0.002/KB is the *correct* rate. It's what Verizon actually charges as a data rate. So the bill is correct. Having a blind faith in their billing department, especially when it comes to math and calculations, I see where the reps are coming from: we know the billing is right, this guy is trying to blind us with science, so let's stick to our guns.
What is incorrect is that this person was *quoted* 0.002 cents/KB. His whole argument should've been focused on saying that he was told it would be 100 times cheaper than it actually was.
Math stupidity: yes. Intentional "larceny": I don't think so.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
I think Verizon should use a little bit of that grant money on their own employees!
Verizon grant helps teens learn math, science at CEET
Boss Hogg to work there. He really understood his percentage.
Rosco: "OK Boss, I want 50 percent of the cut from this plan."
Boss: "I'll do you even better, I'll give you 50 percent of 50 percent"
Rosco: "Oh goody!"
of Verizon putting his "BistroMathematics" into real world use. (Yes I posted this on the other blog, but thought it was funny enough to share here)
nearly unbelievable really gotta stop hiring people based on what they look like and how agreeable they are i really think the verizon conspiracy theories are funny too
He says the difference is 1:100 Bravo!
To clarify with the advertiser how much he will make from embedding the advertisement. Is it $.002/view or .002cents/view?
>
IF you go to a Target store check out the tuna fish. The pack of 4 cans is more expensive than the separate cans.
If you want to see a "what, who me? response", point it out to a "sales associate".
Usually the same is true of the catsup, also. (big bottle more expensive/oz than small bottle)
I have a Verizon landline. Every tax calculation in the bill is a few cents higher than it should be.
35897kb *.002$=$71.794 but morons that they be it should have been 35897kb*.00002$=$0.71794
0.002 and 0.00002 - Calling Prof. John Allen Paulos: the Verizon morons are Innumerate!
This use of Youtube is great!!!! Just give us the idiots' telephone numbers so that we can call them and tell them to please let us have $0.002 of every paycheck, please.
I have no doubt such conversion problems occur from time-to-time, and my general experience with customer service across virtually all telecom compaines has been awful. Nevertheless, I honestly have to wonder if the recorded "Verizon conversation" linked to YouTube for this article is just a staged/scripted performed by pranksters. It has all the classic pacing of a well-done Chris Guest mocumentary and sounds nothing like an actual customer service call (in my experience). Or perhaps my satire threshold has been lowered to the point where real life and staged comedy start looking the same...
i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
Of course they're is charging him in dollars. Verizon doesn't have any cents.
I can hear the Verizon rep's pre-pubescent voice echoing through the years from primary school math class.
"Ms. Smith? Are we ever going to use decimals in real life?"
http://www.coastal.edu/math/mathcontest/Level2_04. pdf it is a math contest co-sponsored by Verizon.
The cellular customer service reps are trained to state that it is a "one time only courtesy" any time they credit an account. I know this from very recent dealings with both T-Mobile and Cingular. Nobody else can insist upon receiving the same refund because their circumstances are not exactly the same, and because a "courtesy" refund is not an admission that the billing was incorrect.
Also I have a recommendation to anyone who has been unable to settle a grievance with a cellular service company. Send them a letter. An honest to God paper, snail-mail letter. Explain your problem as objectively as possible, mention your failed phone or e-mail based attempts to get it settled, and offer to file complaints with the BBB and the FCC if you don't receive proper assistance. This worked wonders for me with T-mobile. The 20 minutes it took to write that letter were far better spent than the hours I wasted on hold, being transferred between reps (each requiring a brand new explanation), and performing pointless troubleshooting steps with my phone. E-mail is worthless for this sort of problem with companies this large. You will receive an auto response every time. A real human will read your paper letter and will almost certainly respond.
A perfect example of how efficient the American educational system is.
Calculation and interpretation are being done independently of each other.
They do the math, and come up with a number that is two digits, decimal, three digits. When dealing with money in the U.S., basically the ONLY time we use numbers that look like this is when referring to dollars. So the brain immediately says dollars. But when referring to amounts that are zero decimal a few digits, our brain knows that we are referring to cents. The brain is making this leap, and because the people see that the bill confirms what their instinct tells them should be right (the total charge,) they don't bother TRYING to make the (correct) logical leap. They see a very small number, so it must be cents. But because it is, indeed, smaller than one whole cent, they again know that it is measured as "point something cents". So they know "point something cents," and they see "point zero zero two,", so they make the (faulty) logical leap of "point zero zero two cents." Then they do the math, and get "seventy one point seventy nine," and see that as dollars, since, silly caller, only DOLLARS are phrased as "something something point something something!"
It's horrible. I see the faulty logic, yet I see no way of getting them to understand. (The caller most certainly tried a lot harder than I would have. I would have gotten frustrated to the point of hanging up well before he did.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Talk about stupidity. How the hell can these reps not know the difference between dollars and cents, especially with the caller providing so many different examples. But, when he was talking to the last supposedly qualified supervisor he had an opportunity to drive his point home, but he missed it. At about the 18:19 time mark in the call recording, she starts talking about using the calculator, but fails to recognize the difference between dollars and cents (again). However, at about the 18:58 time mark in the recording he asks her a 'what if' question using 1 cent, at which point she says something like "so 1 cent, that would be .001 on the calculator". Here's where he should have said something like "Why did you just change 1 into .001 ?" to point out the fact that a conversion is required to change cents into dollars. But, unfortunately, he missed the opportunity.
- James
At least that didn't affect your pay. I used to work at Sonic where the timeclock printed out your hours in hours.minutes format per day. This was to my detriment as the proprietor would just add up the hours per day on his calculator, making 59 minutes worth .59 hours.
So if I worked 3 hours and 59 minutes every day for five days (it was a part time minimum wage job) the proprietor would stiff me for nearly two hours of unpaid work.
3.59+
3.59+
3.59+
3.59=
17.95 (hours? I don't think so
3 hours and 59 minutes per day times 5 days = 19.92 hours
Someone tell me the employment standards are better on nuclear attack subs.
Please?
I have often seen signs advertising something on special for ".99 cents" and the like. One of these days, when I'm feeling cocky, I'm going to ask for one, lay a penny on the counter, and insist that I get my 1/100 of a cent change back.....
Innumeracy is rampant, and I don't even mean advanced algebra or calculus -- I mean simple, basic arithmetic. I guarantee you that if the machines go down, most retail clerks couldn't make correct change to save their lives.
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
Everyone let them know how great they are :)
. jsp
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email
--
Nic
1) Instead of spending a half hour, an hour or whatever wading through automated support and going through various levels of customer service trying to resolve an issue simply fill out a complaint form on the FCC's website. The form is available here. Within a few days a representative from the phone company will call you and politely ask what they can do to take care of this problem. I have used this succesfully several times in the past. I think once you get the FCC involved the phone companies are generally much more interested in resolving the issue quickly and to your satisfaction. Of course this probably won't do much if your problem arose in Canada.
2) If you can't get your problem resolved and want to switch providers there is a way to weasel out of your contract with no obligation. This is absolutely the last thing the phone company will ever tell you and most people aren't even aware it's available. Tell them you moved to an area where you no longer have service and they are required, by law, to terminate your contract for you. I myself have never used this but I have several friends that have done it succesfully. Some providers may require you to provide some proof of relocation, like an apartment lease or something. Not that I'm advocating this [ahem], but many apartment companies post their leasing agreements on their websites where you can simply print it out, fill it in and fax it to the phone company.
Their EVDO network speed tops out at around 2.5 Mbps. You can burn through 10 MB ($20.48 at $0.002/kB) in about 40 seconds. So with that in mind, which sounds more reasonable rate for less than a minute's worth of data: 20 cents or $20?
A friend of mine was trying to buy something at the local Wal-Mart and after the cashier rang it up, the total came out to roughly $3.50. My friend reached into her wallet and pulled out a $5 bill, thinking that this would clearly be enough to pay for something that costs less than $5. Unfortunately, the cashier seemed to be unable to understand that $5 is a larger amount of money than $3.50 and wouldn't accept the money, stating that it wasn't enough. After arguing for a bit my friend finally had to go to another cashier to pay for her goods and leave. People who can't understand that 5 is bigger than 3.5 shouldn't be allowed to leave their houses in the morning. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THAT STUPID??
If the charge were 0.02 dollars per kilobyte, a 5-meg iTunes song would cost $100 to download, which is clearly not only outrageous but beyond any normal expectations. A cost of $1 would be expected for this sort of mobile service, ie. charged at 0.02 cents/KB.
So I think he's being quoted 0.02 cents/KB correctly, but the billing department is over-charging customers by a factor of 100 times the correct figure!
Any time now, Verizon is due for a *MASSIVE* class action for reibursement!
Sure there is.
Back when the dollar was worth more than 30 seconds of skilled labor, people reckoned prices in dollars, cents, and mills. If I recall right, the early United States even had mill coins. Gasoline is still reckoned in dollars, cents, and mills per gallon, rounded to cents at the end of the transaction. That's why every fueling station gives you the prices as "$1.549/gal" or some such -- those nine mills per gallon add up after a while...
Eventually, the CEO will notice, and it will be a joke on Jay Leno, then the supervisor will get the ass.
Verizon Communications
Corporate Headquarters
140 West Street
New York, NY 10007
Telephone: 800-621-9900
Airfone
2809 Butterfield Road
Oak Brook, IL 60522
Telephone: 630-572-1800
Fax: 630-572-0506
Verizon Internet Solutions Texas
P.O. Box 152212
Irving, TX 75015-2212
Telephone: 800-567-6789
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Well, this would not be too so outrageous if it did not happen to so many people all the time: talking to a customer rep that just does not understand the problem. So I feel identified with this call. And since they can't hang up on you, they just try your stamina.
Ironic how they give grants to other people trying to help them in learning math when they cant even deal with there own problems. http://www.niu.edu/northerntoday/2005/july5/smile. shtml
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:lTu87wP-zNgJ:w ww.cartoys.com/cartoy/webpages/ShowTerms.cfm/term_ id/42+verizon+.002+scam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
If you look at the bottom of the contract it says $.002/KB , which is what they billed him. It seems the problem isnt with their policy/contract or software , its with the enterpretation of the text by the employee's.
I was in a nice and not expensive italian pizza cafe, the large pizzas (thin and plain 2 toppings at most), were about 8euro or so each, so that was
close enough to back home prices I thought cool. They noted on the side prices in British Pounds, at 14 pounds which equated to about 25 euros. Man
those italians either were bad at math, or hated the british or the british were dumb enough to pay 14pounds.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Before your currency reform, the price would have been quoted in farthings per demi-hogshead sterling, and all billing problems would be routed straight to the math department at Cambridge.
actually, get a sound board online and call them to play it.
But the CEO himself is a big dick any way, ever read interviews with him defending his companies policies and charges.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
and just said "I was quoted .00002 dollars per KB, but you charged me .002 dollars per KB", that or just faxed the results of the google query above to the idiots.
Buh. This caller gets at least an A-, probably an A for patience. But he gets like a C+ at best for communication. You aren't going to overcome an understanding gap by talking over people. You have to listen to them work it out and then point out the problems with the analysis. The people are being slow, or unclever, or obstinate, but they're not being given much help to comprehend the problem. If they're honestly looking at 78.12 and assuming that's 78 dollars and 12 cents or whatever, his exhortations won't really overcome that.
Not that he should be expected to have these skills. And customer service types should absolutely have these skills, but it makes a really dull and annoying recording.
The guy should have explained X per Y is X / Y, therefore when you multiply by Y you get X. A few images on a website and them pointing the browser at it would have driven the point home in a way that can't be ignored, if they really wanted to understand. Telling them they can't do math is accurate, but doesn't really help.
-josh
While we had our laugh, it is statistically improbable that a successful corporation like Verizon can have so many people that fails grade school math. My guess is that they have been handing out A LOT of these 0.002cent/kb deal to users, and they will not admit to a single one of them. A mere $72 lost to a customer is nothing compare to paying up everyone who received this quote. Then again, I think 90% of us would not be so smart to ask the rep. to write a note when it was first quoted. This is a well-learned lesson for the a consumer like me.
The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
The fact that five Verizon representatives could not tell the difference between .002 cents and .002 dollars says nothing about their intelligence or math skills. The fact is, they have to follow a script. If the script says the rate is .002 cents for every kilobyte, then that's what it is, and they cannot say anything different. If they do, the legal liability faced by Verizon is enormous. That is why, in the email sent by Verizon, they still refuse to recognize the error.
The irony is, now that Verizon's error in its script has been documented, Verizon is open to a huge class action so that everyone who was charged .002 dollars/kilobyte (not the .002 cents per kilobyte in the script) is refunded 99% of those charges. I don't know how much of Verizon's customer base uses this data service, but it could represent many tens of millions of dollars, not to mention interest and attorneys' fees-and all the publicity. This is a no-win situation for Verizon, and they know it. I am sure their counsel is working late tonight, as are their accountants to assess the magnitude of the damage, effect on quarterly earnings, share price and the like. For those who do get the refund, Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa!
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I've tried telling the reps I get that I will be recording the call (after getting that canned message), and they protest, and state that if I continue the call, they will disconnect. And under the law where I live, both parties must consent. They are as free to hang-up as you are.
Keep in mind that laws vary from place to place, and in the US, it's a per-state thing.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
The parent post was moderated incorrectly. It should be "+1, Scary", not "+1, Funny".
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
This could really be a benefit for everyone. Anyone here who uses Verizon should pay pennies on the dollar for next month's phone bill. After all, we have recorded statements from a Verizon rep that $0.002 is the same as 0.002 cents. So if your phone bill is 36.23, you should be able to pay 37 cents. Be nice, tell 'em to keep the change!
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
This comment may only apply to a small subset of readers here, but allow me to make the point that as frustratingly obvious as it may be to the numerically literate that "99 cents" is not the same as ".99 cents," so too is it frustratingly obvious to the , erm, literally literate that "cents" is not the same as "cent's." Those of you who are comfortable with numbers but not with grammar: this thread is what it feels like to have to wade through the commas and apostrophes that get thrown around by those who were under the bleachers when their proper usage was being taught.
Evil is the money of root.
For bonus points, he should have pushed to be billed in CANADIAN cents. After all, he was in Canada. That takes his data bill down to ~0.63 USD at current rates.
± 29 dB
I often hear people recommend small claims court, but what about the Better Business Bureau?
I too used to have Verizon service. They made a few mistakes when I first signed up -- charging me for 2 lines instead of one (plus overcharging for that extra line). They agreed to resolve things on the phone, though I had to fax in copies of my contract. Sadly, none of the reps could do the math for the refund correctly. I tried to make it simple, asking to refund just the flat monthly rate (ignoring the taxes and such, figuring it wasn't worth my time arguing). I still spent hours on the phone.
Frustrated, I wrote a letter to the BBB. The resolution with Verizon was immediate. I received a letter, refund, compensation for my time, and a direct line to an upper manager. I was very satisfied with the result.
in long math, like you'd do to show a child.
.002 cents per KB.
.002 of a cent?
.002 cents per KB x 35893KB?
What is a cent?
One hundredth of a dollar.
1x0.01=0.01
What is
Two thousandths of one hundredth of one dollar, or one hundred thousandth of one dollar.
1x0.01x0.002=0.00002
Now what is
Two thousandths of one hundredth of one dollar multiplied by three thousand eight hundred ninety three equals seventy two hundredths of one dollar.
1x0.01x0.002x35893=0.71786
Not because I really care that much.
I just think it would be funny to call a middle school maths teacher as an expert witness.
I scanned through the first page of the many comments and did not notice if this had been brought up so if it's redundant I apologize..... But what about taking them to small claims court? Surely a judge could do the math?
It's only paranoia if your wrong...
Okay, so I listened to all of the conversation between a person who was quoted a price in cents/kilobyte, and several Verizon representatives, all of whom are so addled by reliance on their computer screens that they are unable to grasp that they are mis-quoting a price by one hundredfold by failing to convert between dollars and cents. Then it got me thinking about why they should find it so difficult to multiply and divide by 100. It's not that that can't perform the arithmetical calculation, it's just that they are experience a disconnect linking this operation with their intuition about how much something should cost. What we call "numbers" are in fact two different things: symbols that we manipulate using mechanical and representative operations, and sensations that we intuitively experience and comprehend.
Why should it be so difficult for these Verizon people, all apparently USians, to handle such a simple operation as taking powers of ten? I think it's to do with a lack of basic Metric education in the US. It seems obvious to me that in a culture where Metric conversion techniques are not routinely taught to schoolchildren, then the casual manipulation of powers of ten and powers of a hundred must become (when compared to other cultures) significantly less easy, common and apparently mind-numbingly abstruse and esoteric for a significant proportion of adults.
The unusual resistance of the U.S. to Metrication is both a symptom of and a driver of adult innumeracy.
Metric instills a basic intuition about powers of ten and orders of magnitude. Or at least, it will tend to, relative to indifferently scaled arbitrary measurements. Once you build this mental framework, it can be easily integrated into novel experiential learning.
I am unfortunately old enough to have begun primary school in a country using Imperial measurements that then switched to Metric. I can still recall being taught arithmetic as a young child, and being shown how to convert between ounces and pounds, and pounds and stone. That sucked, and made no sense.
Being indoctrinated into Metric within a few years reduced my cognitive load apppreciably, while enlarging my ability to estimate weights and measures. By exposing children to tanglible object weights such as 1g, 10g, 100g, 500g, 1kg, 5 kg and so on, one forms a consistent appreciation of mass. The same is true of learning distance.
I had to re-take basic physics and chemistry in a US university recently. I was quite shocked at how a significant proportion of the students had little conception of how much 1 ml was, or 10g, or 1m. It makes them even less able to relate the scientific measurements they read about and note down in lab to their own experience. Seriously, it's a problem. Many of them had less cognitive ability to deal with weights and measures than a typical 10-year-old European child. USians now have the worst of both worlds: thanks to globalisation, pretty much all their commodities now carry measurements in grams and litres, but they are not really taught how to think Metric in school and so have little idea of how to work with them.
Powers of ten make life easier. I now saying that being taught Metric would have avoided this Verizon arithmetic abortion, but I think it might have increased the probability of finding a rep who got it.
Some might say that the basic reason for the communication disconnect is that dollars and cents are "different", but I think comment in and of itself betrays a lack of Metric education.
I think the problem is that the Verizon people were incapable of intuiting on a fundamental level that the two are in fact the same thing, currency, but that the $ sign is a 100x multiplier of the unit. Or that the sign is a 100 divider of the $ unit.
As a pedagogy, Metric is based on the idea of as few fundamental units as possible, and everything else being created through powers of ten. It sim
Da Blog
1 cm3/ of water is of course 1 gram, or 1 mL, a cube of water 1cm on each side which, when absorbing 1 calorie of energy, will exhibit a temperature raise of 1 Celsius.
Da Blog
Verizon PDF:
w ww.hp.com/sbso/wireless/MNY50079-VZAccessPricing-V 1b.pdf+NationalAccess+Roaming+in+Canada&hl=en&gl=u s&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=firefox-a
"NationalAccess roaming in Canada will be charged at a rate of $0.002/KB.
For more information on roaming in Canada, visit www.verizonwireless.com/naroaming"
Where were the CustServReps getting their rate?
From http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:KyZN3Harj0UJ:
he failed to explain that the problem was they should have multiplied the kilobytes by .00002 instead of .002, he never made that clear. Not that he is to blame for anything that happened here.
http://www.google.com/search?q=.002%20cents%20time s%2035893
I want my 0.002 dollars!
I work for a Fortune 50 company that has to send out quotes to at least 3 vendors when purchasing anything over $5000. For networking equipment, one of those vendors is often Verizon. Our purchasing department no longer sends quotes to them, because the times that they would win the bid, they would fuck up the order. Things would show up missing parts (How do you forget to send the 3 power supplies on a Cisco 6513?), or broken. Or we'd get used gear instead of new. I can't easily recall a time we ordered something from them and it actually showed up on time and correct. So it's no surprise that Verizon is giving consumers the shaft, if the don't mind shafting a $50 billion company.
:))
(Posted anonymously so my comments don't reflect poorly upon the corporation I work for
If you steal from a source, make damn sure you don't copy their errors as well.
It gives you away
(Yes, the blogger actually cited his source as
Side note: I seem to recall that a major English dictionary (Oxford English?) introduced a few non-existing words in order to catch fraudulent dictionary editors copying their work illegitimately. I can't find a reference, does anyone else know anything about this?
Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors!
I just called Verizon's customer service 800 line. George, you have had some effect. However, they still don't quite get it. The price I was quoted for usage in Canada was two cents per Kb.
I work with a repository of teaching materials (among other things). I just took a look through it and found that the difference between units is generally taught in second grade. OSIC code Y2003.CMA.S02.GPK-02.BE.L02.I03, for anyone who cares about that.
Check this out.
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone. "I wonder where Rob got the plutonium" is better than most get.