Slashdot Mirror
Motorists Sue Over 'Hot' Fuel
i_like_spam writes "Motorists in 13 states have filed lawsuits against big oil companies and gas retailers alleging unfair pricing practices related to fuel-pumping temperatures. From an industry standard developed in the 1920's, the price for a gallon of gasoline is based on the density of the fuel at a temperature of 60 degress F. A gallon of gas at higher temperatures is less dense, and therefore contains less energy. The lawsuits claim additional costs of 3 to 9 cents per gallon without temperature adjustments. The fuel industry claims that the costs of installing temerature-adjustment sensors on every pump would be prohibitively high. These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers."
A couple of interesting tidbits from the testimony: In some states, compensating for the temperature of refined petroleum products being sold has taken place at the wholesale level -- but not at the retail gas pump (diesel included) or for deliveries of home heating fuel. Some states prohibit temperature compensation at retail and some states prohibit temperature compensation anywhere in the petroleum distribution chain. Most states require temperature compensation for certain products, such as for liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) sales, or propane for home heating, but not necessarily for other products. A review of the application of temperature compensation to petroleum volume data showing average fuel storage tank temperatures in the U.S. and possible effect on petroleum measurement. The data on storage tank temperatures, collected by a manufacturer of tank monitoring equipment, over a two year period indicated that the average temperature of product in below ground tanks across the U.S. was 64.7 degrees Fahrenheit.
what i saw on the news was "oil companies said that insulation costs would be prohibitively high" so i said "build a sensor." apparently that costs's prohibitively high as well..... is it really that high??
does anyone else think that gas prices are prohibitively high for me to drive around more than is absolutely necessary?
Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
Because not only would they have to pay for the cost of the installation, but then they'd lose money due to the metering changes based on temperature. Then again, it's not like THEY pay for it. We do.
Business math 101: Their accountants looked at the money they'd lose after installing the sensors and prohibited the engineers from doing it. Ergo, the sensors are prohibitively expensive.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
It might be the case where it really is prohibitively high, if it's the gas station owners that would be paying for it. They sell the gas at very thin margins, making more money on bags of chips and bottles of water.
Shouldn't competition keep the prices low?
I bet the 3 to 9 cents is coming off the price and not out of the pocket. The only place where it really matters is when the temperature swing is large and people fueling during rush hour are left paying more than those at night, of course if the consumers were educated about that it would free up rush hour slots at the station and consumers would still win.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Look on the bright side - the fact that the US companies do this sort thing to a greater extent than in other countries is evidence that they operate in more competitive and less regulated environment where a few cents is noticed. And while you may pay a few extra cents for you petrol, you probably pay less for other things because of this.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Sure there's a small amount of gas (probably less than half a gallon) above ground in the pump that will warm and cool relatively quickly but since it is only half a gallon who really cares?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
It's colder, and we pay more for gas. Yippee kay ay ...
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
If a area is at a certain temperature, and the gas station operators are aware, they could adjust prices accordingly to compete with their local competitors. Or at least thats how it should work in theory...
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
This site give the coefficient of thermal expaansion for gasoline: http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~vawter/PhysicsNet/Topics/Th ermal/ThermExpan.html. For a
20 C increase in temperature I get about a 2% increase in volume or a 6 cent difference for $3/gal gas. So the article seems about right. s -selling-solar.html
--
Get solar power with no installation cost, pay for only what the system produces: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
What if they just put the tanks deeper underground? would it affect it at all?
Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
The Car Talk guys said that temperature should only make an insignificant difference. However, they're not really your neighborhood experts in fluid physics, either.
Just make the standard at 100F instead of 60F, then temperature sensors will be all the rage, as they apparently are in canada.
While I think you meant to type skeptics, I think the actual spelling you used just might be more accurate for the general atmosphere of most gas/oil/fuel discussions...
I bet it costs more than running spell check!
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
Seems to me all that would need to be added is a temperature sensor. Then all they would have to do is lower the cost of gas when the gas is significantly hotter than 60 degrees.
I have always thought that I was getting ripped off by the person before me that used regular gas, when I pumped premium. Are there several hoses in that pipe, or do I get a hose length of 10 cent cheaper gas in my car everytime that I fill up? If the latter is true... someone start up a class action lawsuit... I have a job that keeps me too busy.
robots obey what the children say - TMBG
Am I the only one who first read this and wondered how radioactive gas had gotten out there?
I grew up around big oil. Wells, refineries, etc. and I've heard this premise more than once. On the surface, it makes sense but it doesn't hold up in practice. There are really two problems with this theory:
1. (the most important) gasoline tanks are buried 10+ feet under ground. They don't experience the same temperature fluctuations that the surface does. The temperature of the tank can easily be 15-20 degree below ambient air temperature or more. Also, it doesn't fluctuate as much.
2. In the vast majority of the country, the *average* weather nullifies this. Even in Texas, where I grew up, a lot of the state averaged 40-50 for a few months out of the year. In New York, where I am now... the *average* daily temperature breaks 60 for a few months out of the year. Average is important. If it's only above 60, even 70, for a few hours out of the day that will have *no* effect on the tank which is sitting comfortably at 50 or so. So yes... a few months out of the year you're paying more for gas. But a few months out of the year your also paying *less* for gas and most of the time you're breaking even.
I can see this being a valid argument in AZ, Southern NV, AZ... places that are at 100+ right now. But everywhere else in the country it's just someone else trying to get something for nothing.
You also have to bear in mind that this is going to hurt the station owners, not the petroleum companies. In some cases the petroleum companies own your local gas station (usually only in high profit locations) but most of them are licensed by franchises (still private individuals) or independent owner/operators and they will end up eating the cost of the equipment. Not "big oil".
I'm not a shill and I actually don't care for big oil at all... but this is just a stupid lawsuit. Sue them for not pursuing alternative energy. Sue them for not upgrading to more efficient and clean refineries. Sue them for not managing their waste products.
This is just a petty waste of time and doomed to failure.
What about the fact that the pump components are also expanding? It seems like that would be more significant than the gas its self expanding. The most accurate solution, as mentioned on car talk, would be to sell gasoline by weight as the weight does not change with temperature.
Yeah, it's too expensive because it would cost the oil companies a lot of money.
What they did there is pretty clever, eh?
The spelling of septic was correct in this instance.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Although a class action suit will result in lesser benefits for consumers, i would still prefer it since it involves a higher payout for oil companies.
A simple calculation from 2004-2007 (statue of limitations) of total gas pumped in all of US from all company owned pumps alone would result in excess fleecing of consumers by atleast 35 billion dollars.
A class action suit would probably result in 25% of the amount being paid out to lawyers and consumers being given coupons.
But i would still prefer it, since lawyers have a vested interest in making sure the case succeeds rather the present cheney task force.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
But lets not waste time on all these diversionary tactics and go straight for what people really want: a per mile charge. Lets say that everyone jsut pays 25 cents for each mile they drive. This will save the junk-status american car company executive from having to come up with an original idea in exchange for their 8 figure incomes. The populous can get what it want, huge cars that they can't afford to maintain, and oil companies can get what they really want, direct huge no-string subsidies and the right to drill anywhere they want, also at the taxpayers expense.
Or we could just keep the entire thing simple. We could drive cars and distances that are within our means. The US congress could rescind the dole payments given to the oil companies by so-called conservative politicians. The added tax receipts could be used to hold down the deficiet instead of buying yachts and servants, servants, who, BTW, are evidently better paid than the average American, for the uber-wealthy. Really, in my dream world, we would not be owned by the Chinese, and have the ability to set trade policy on our own terms, and not fight these proxy battles to keep them from dumping out dollars of decreasing worth in favor of euros.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The fuel industry claims that the costs of installing temperature-adjustment sensors on every pump would be prohibitively high. These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers.
Nutrasweet is harmless! (i.e. cheaper than sugar!)
IE is an integral part of Windows! (wait.. it's not yet... wait.. wait.. wait.. aaahh! now it is. congrats!)
We can offer better price and services as a single huge telecom monopoly, don't split us up! (we'll kinda merge later anyway)
Piracy causes tremendous losses to our industry! (we know this, since whatever our profits, we think they should've been 4 times that!)
Simple, problem solved. Buy gas by the pound.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Sounds more like hot air to me
Don't the fuel injectors in modern vehicles automatically adjust themselves for this sort of thing (indirectly)... meaning that the only real effect is reducing the range on your vehicle, but not how expensive the gas is.
You just end up hitting the gas station more often. (Then again, if the gas station isn't directly on your way home, I guess you're using extra fuel to go in and out)
The gas transfered from a tanker truck to an underground tank will not instantaneously change to the soil temp, obviously, to those that claim the gas should all be the temperature of the ground. It could take quite a long time for such a large mass of liquid to reach equilibrium with its surroundings.
The group presenting the lawsuit should give some data on what kind of temperatures they've measured.
I suspect a bigger problem is gas stations that have pumps intentionally set to pump less than they charge. I've heard of pumps that run slow below the five and ten gallon mark then catch up, in case an inspector is filling a standard size tank for inspection. I have know idea what the extent of that type of fraud is, anyone know?
Most states and even some cities have a 'department of weights and measures' that have a pretty good legal authority to conduct all sorts of testing in regards to the measurement of things sold. I looked up the local ordinances on mine, and they had some fairly nasty teeth to them.
These are exactly the people who you want to get involved to investigate this kind of thing.
My father-in-law (Canadian) used to tell stories about how in the summer gas station owners would pump gasoline into the glass reservoir above the pump, in preparation for the next customer. While waiting, of course, the fuel heated up, and the station owner made a tidy profit from the scam.
Obviously, the official price displayed on the sign would change to compensate. It would go up.
This would exactly offset the consumer's gain, except for two things:
1. rounding, or really anti-rounding, to have more "9" digits (win some days, lose some days)
2. somebody has to pay for the equipment -- that would be them, but ultimately us via the prices
It all looks kind of pointless. Maybe you could argue a safety issue, in case some retail outlets are actually heating the fuel before selling it. (horrifying thought there!)
www.purevolume.com/martyd
How hot can a pump get in the summer heat of Arizona? Maybe 200 degrees? Let's make it that then.
Forget the temperature compensation crap. Let's just require fuel to be served at 200 degrees.
Now that I think about it, this might help safety and environmental issues. Fuel expanding in a car's gas tank gets vented outside. That's awful. If it starts out hot and low density, venting is unlikely.
Interesting to see the truth being modded as a troll. I guess it's true that some people just don't WANT to know, especially when it means there isn't as much to complain about.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
I live in Texas....its hot here. Wouldn't the gas get warm or hot in the gas tank of my car, and therefore nullify having cold gas served from the pump?
Great, so as a motorist, if I win as a member of this class action lawsuit, I'll maybe get a coupon for $5 of gas, while the lawyers will get tens of millions. I can't wait.
The case may well hinge on the whys and wherefores of the decision to fit Canadian pumps with the sensors. If the same companies who balk in the US did indeed put them on pumps in Canada for just these reasons they'll have a hard time defending the decision not to in the US. It'll be interesting to see what turns up in discovery.
Arguments about this hurting station owners is based on the flawed assumption that gasoline has a fixed markup, but that's generally not true: Most states allow market economics (including, of course, wind direction, phase of moon, rumors, lies, and perhaps now ambient temperature) to dictate the price of gasoline at the pump.
So, in a hypothetical dream-world where all gas stations are required to adjust the meaning of the US Gallon based on temperature, all gas stations in a given climatic area will be about equally affected by temperature shifts.
Of course, their margins are already quite slim, and successful gas stations are not operated by fools. Therefore, if the cost of dispensing "One Temperature-Compensated US Gallon" rises above that of "One Old-School Volumetric US Gallon," then they'll just unilaterally increase prices to compensate, by whatever amount the market will bear.
There will be some variable and inconsistent pricing while they learn to compensate for the change, but it the adjustment period will be short-lived. We consumers wouldn't even notice it given the frequent swings in gasoline prices as of late.
Kid-proof tablet..
I'm I the only American on the planet rooting for higher gas prices in the US? Higher gas equals less SUVs and trucks which equals less congestion. I live in England now, and $7.50 gallon gas is the norm. Get over yourselves already America.
so that they need to wait 1 extra week to buy that 100feet yaught?
There *is* a difference between Canada and the US here.
First off, since it is the consumer loosing money the gas companies have a slightly different way of looking at things (and so should you). In our case it *is* expensive to do so.
So, it is costing you up to 6 cents a gallon? OK, how much per gallon is it going to *cost* to put it in (including full cost, not just how much does the physical probe cost - as far as TCO the physical material cost is usually the small part)? It may very well *increase* the price of gasoline to install and maintain them - it would also largely be based on where you live. My guess is that southern Texas would most likely be a plus for consumers but New York is worthless (and maybe even detrimental). In Canada 60 degrees Fahrenheit makes less sense as a good average as our "extreme" end of the cold (most northern) is their most southern area.
My general guess is that most of the US the 60 degree temperature is pretty decent for tank buried 10 feet underground encased in all the stuff the EPA requires, loose in the summer, gain in the winter, and usually by a very small amount. In the southernmost areas you start to find it helping, say southern Texas, Florida, and other southern coastal areas - in the more northern areas probably the opposite.
60 degrees Fahrenheit is a pretty good average for 10 feet underground encased in concrete for the vast vast majority of the US. It makes people feel better to get the "most" in the summer but the reality is that you usually make it up in the winter - even with gas generally being cheaper in the winter. Even should they not simply just pass any extra cost on to the consumer you will, at best, break even. Heck, if we assume that they are breaking even (and that is a fairly valid assumption) then adding this is simply extra cost for no benefit - on *either* side.
In short, they are still mostly around where the supply and demand curves meet (and taxes screw with that more than anything - go complain to your govt) so additional cost will simply be pushed onto the consumer. In fact, should we assume that the oil companies are evil and milking the people for everything that their greedy little minds can comprehend, this would only give them something else to artificially increase the price of gas. Yay - a real win for consumers!!!
Really, there is probably WAY more "cost" with not counting a gallon as a gallon than there is with this, even assuming the gas stations aren't being intentionally dishonest. Unless you live at the fairly extreme ends of the temperature world you are breaking even for the year and this can only increase cost, but that has never stopped the feel good get evenism crowd - lets stick it to the oil companies!!! They are Evil (TM) and we have to do something (even if that something is counter productive).
Oil companies definitely aren't the great neighbors of world, but this would only make things worse even assuming they are looking out for the consumers - lets look more towards getting rid of the oil dependency and reducing our consumption. But that doesn't make the Oil Company haters *or* the Oil Consumers happy.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
But outside the realm of argument, stating the obvious is one of the most basic elements of small talk, which is almost always the first step towards having meaningful conversation with another human. Unfortunately, we can't just walk up to strangers and ask them about their thoughts on the nature of the soul... it's socially unaccepted, but for a good reason. Subjective issues (religion, politics, musical taste, etc) are the most touchy, and when conflict and disagreement erupt around them, people become upset. A new person you're interested in starting a conversation with has no interest in getting into an argument with a stranger. Conversation based around deep thoughts and strong opinions and radical ideas doesn't occur until after you're fairly well acquainted with someone (unless you're part of a society similar to E2). Prior to this, you're confined to asking innocuous questions ("What's your major?" and "Have you seen such-and-such movie?", once you've been talking for a few minutes), and stating the obvious ("It's a scorcher out here today" or "That's a cool shirt") to show that you're willing to engage in verbal communication and exchange a little vulnerability for the possibility that the other will respond with something interesting ("Yeah, I was born in such-and-such, where the weather is...", "Thanks, I bought it from NORML, which meets the first Tuesday of..."). -- www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=164319
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I lift the loop a little because you must lift the nozzle to get it out of the car. Being a short-arse the recovery from the lift leaves the nozzle lower than it was when pumping in to the car. So if I weren't to lift the loop a little, some petrol would dribble out the end before I put it back in the dispenser.
So I lift the loop a little first.
Mod me Troll if you want, but I think that my parent's right!
/., wouldn't it make sense to think that as long as Joe NextGuy can afford to drive a 15mpg car and take a 1-hour plane to go shopping, fuel prices are damn too low???
For every global warming discussion that we have here on
Anyway, please continue to think that fuel prices are high, give all your money away to rogue/commie states and wait for them to decide that 10$/gallon is still not expensive enough!
I can bet you'll look good, with your Humvee running out of gas, 2 or 3 Katrina's a year and terrorists' wallet full of petrodollars!
In the calculation below I often take the most near numbers, since there are many unknown it does not need to be precise.
One need to calculate the number of gallon sold in hot weather, and multiply by 1.2% of 3$ cents.
Taking this fuel consumption in gallon US 2002 for passenger car motor vehicule there was 75000 million gallon and for all motor 167000 million gallon over 2002 (likely more now). Taking ALL motor, 167000 million gallon, and assuming a constant consumption over the year (not true but bear with me) that is 450 million gallons per day. Since most people buy their fuel during day time (at least here around...) I will asumme 100% was bought during the day to simplify. So for EVERY hot day we have roughly 450 million gallon per day bought. But in reality this is for the whole US but not all state will have a very hot temperature. Looking at the population of california, texas and a few other hot state, I come to a population estimate of roughly 70 million people (texas 29M+california 36M+ a few southern bordering 5M). Naturally this is likely to be a bit of an overestimate but I do not went to write a thesis, so unless somebody has better numbers... OK so the proportion is 70/299=~24%. So the fuel consumption for those people per hot day will be 24% of 457 =roughly 105 million gallon per day
. If there is a difference of 1.2% in volume, that means consummer paid 0.036$ too much at 3$ per gallon. This means for oil company a benefice per hot day, for ALL oil company taken together : 3,7 million dollars. Now I do not know the reparition per company, but assuming saomebody knows the % that could be done. repartition.
Still for each individual the loss of 0.036$ might not be that big, but the oil market per HOT day seems to get a few millions dollar, with maybe as much as 30 hot days per years, that would make roughly 100 million dollar. Multiply by 60 years. Sum mount rreaaaallly quick. This is not a BIG sum, but this ain't small chump either.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It really would be rather expensive to install temperature sensors in every pump, because you would also have to change the computer in the pump to be able to read them, and install firmware to use that, and probably change communication back to point-of-sale systems and fuel reconciliation processes. But as people have mentioned that is almost certainly not necessary; the temperature of the fuel will be basically the same as the tank, so just measure the tank.
But it's not as simple as that. Once you've got a temperature, what do you do with it? Fuel pricing is carefully controlled, and setting up a whole new pricing process to cater for end-user temperature would make for a lot of work. Accountants won't just let you calculate a number, it would have to be by a schedule, based on the prices determined originally (e.g. by the oil company). Finally someone or something has to be measuring, calculating/looking up, checking the result, and changing all the prices on the pumps AND on the price signs. For centrally controlled prices, this would likely be a complete nightmare.
In the end it is probably irrelevant. As others have said, the average probably comes out to roughly the same. In any case, it's obvious that the oil companies will have already built the factor (if any) into their pricing, and so forcing them to install sensors will just a) cost them a lot of money (which they will pass on to consumers) and b) result in slightly different APPARENT prices which will not practically be any different, per energy, in the long term.
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
... And I say with with vehement disgust in lieu of stronger words. I like stronger words, but those to whom they'd refer have their heads someplace where they couldn't hear them clearly, so I'll save them.
) . The expansion of the small portion of gas above the riser will be negative for more people than not, more of the time than not. It'll be a contraction.
When I was crawling in and out of underground fuel tanks in a space suit (not really, but we called it that; the air supply was via a hose, not an air tank) I picked up more than a couple pertinent details. And after reading this article I went and looked up a couple more.
The underground temperature at the depth most tanks must reside is between 54 and 58 F depending on location (and varying 1 to 2 F over a year), not 64.7. That figured was arrived at by a company that sells the same kind of equipment this article talks about. They have a vested interest in the data. Not stated is when the measurement is taken -- just after a 5,000 gal. tanker dumps its load into a 20,000 gal tank?
Tanks need to be more than just under the surface. They need to have enough ground covering them so they don't float up out of the ground through bouyancy. Many are tied down by steel straps to a concrete cradle for this reason, but the depth underground is a fail-safe and still adhered to. They also have to be well underground anywhere a vehicle has to drive over them, or a concrete apron will cover them, so the weight above will be spread out and not collapse the tank. Thus, they're almost invariably below the level where variations will be more than a degree or two.
The average annual temperature temperature where I am, Dallas-Fort Worth, is 64.5 F. The expansion of gasoline from 60 to 64.5 is ~0.3% (0.00069 per degree F; diesel is less, 0.00050 per). The amount of gas above the ground in a piping and pump system is the only part of a fill up that'll be affected by air temperature, and then only if it sits long enough to equalize. The volume involved is from 0.5 to 1.5 gallons depending on distance from riser and style of pump+hose. The rest of what's pumped will come right from underground and will be at or less than 60 F.
If this passes, the average US driver will lose the benefit they're already getting due to the average temperature being less than 60 F. The average temperature from 1900 to 2000 is less than 60 over almost all the US (according to plots from data at NOAA's Earth Systems Research Lab http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/USclimate/USclimdivs.html
They'll also pay even more because they'll foot the bill for these devices and their installation; the big oil producers will just plow these costs into the price, and it'll never be noticed, because they can raise the price 10 times that amount, then drop it 9 of that 10, and people will think the price is so close to what it started at that they won't think about it twice.
I had more than a passing familiarity with the issue. Besides going into tanks to inspect them, I also did the annual volumetric testing of gas pumps. I had to apply the correction factor. Where I was, the upper peninsula of Michigan, the average air temperature was very much less than 60. It was 32 F when I moved there in 1976. However, we applied the correction, or rather tried to, based on measuring the temperature of the fuel in the testing can. There was a thermometer built into the glass tube on the side of the can's neck where we also measured the gas level in 0.1 in^3 increments (one part on over 10,000 for the 5 gallon testing can). The temperature was never, as far as I can recall, ever outside the 50s F range.
I'd like to hear from someone up in the Great White as to exactly why they have those temperature sensing devices installed. Whose idea was it, the gas companies' or the peoples'? The article(s; I've looked at several elsewhere) seems to imply the former, but I can't find anything explicit on it.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
On a serious note isn't it ironic that global warming will actually make oil companies additional profits based on fuel expansion. It'll be small but even a degree change would probably mean millions when you consider the volumes involved.
... welcome our old non-metric-using Overlords.
Let the horde of calculations using gallons, miles and fahrenheit march !
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Just want I wanted to hear. Law firm will get another payday settling for a chump change payoff for them and nothing for the consumers supposedly harmed.
When you guys in the States start paying our 'gas' prices then you can complain, otherwise please be quiet
(cheapest around my area at the moment is $7.37).
And yes it would make a difference to how much you get in the tank, F1 used to do it and was banned.
The Australian CSIRO studied this problem about 10 years ago, at a cost of around $3million AU.
:)
.. so the commercial dealings between retailers and oil companies already take this into account.
.. but really, there is a lot of good science and logic and economics in the way of that sort of law being introduced here. Anyway - Here is to hoping that they defy logic and introduce such a law in Oz !!
(The paper with the results can be found here
http://www.aip.com.au/issues/temperature.htm
"On the basis of the CSIRO study, Federal and State Consumer Affairs Ministers decided in 1996 that the costs, both capital and ongoing, of temperature correction outweighed any potential benefits.
The extra costs involved in temperature correction would put additional upward pressure on petrol prices.
All the oil companies have in place procedures for addressing claims of fuel losses by service station operators."
However, this was based on adding temp compensation equipment to the price of each fuel bowser, which at the time cost around $2000 US to add to each fuel bowser. (A fuel bowser typically costs around $10000-20000 each), and based on the price of petrol in 1996 terms.
Given the dramatic increases in the cost of fuel, AND the newer (cheaper) technology available in fuel metering -- we might see this whole situation be reviewed in Australia, especially if this lawsuit grows legs and takes off in the US.
As it stands, petrol stations and fuel deliveries in Oz are already heavily regulated to take temperature into account whenever fuel is loaded from a road tanker into a petrol station tank
Disclaimer: My major customer is an Australian linux-loving company that makes fuel bowsers and all the electro-techno stuff that connects to them. IF a new law was introduced here that suddenly demanded Temp Compensation inside each fuel bowser, then we would all become insanely rich overnight, at the expense of the average joe consumer who would pay WAY MORE at the pump
I think that Alaska and Hawaii have regulations in place that require temp compensation metering devices in fuel bowsers though.
and if they can't, I bet the crew at Mythbusters would have a great time testing gasoline at various temps/pressures/volumes.
Hey people... we're talking THE OIL COMPANIES... YES?!!!
I mean this isn't brain surgery... these are the same folks that just this year charged U.S. Citizens record gasoline prices nation wide, even though global pressure was actually down, price per barrel was down, and surplus stocks of gasoline were heading for a high (i.e. Their not even bothering to make excuses any more... they're just gonna charge us whatever they bloody well feel like... screw supply and demand and if you don't like it their good buddy the President will try to ramrod another bill through DC giving them another 20 or 30 billion more of your tax dollars for an encore!)
It's like getting pissed off at your rude neighbor because his dog uses your yard as a toilet. You have two choices. You can fume in impotent rage, obsessed by your neighbors lack of consideration and responsibility... or you can call animal control, and quietly laugh to yourself as your neighbor has to put a sizey chunk of change down to cover Spot's neutering, immunization, and getting sprung from animal sing sing. Your choice, your problem or theirs. Notice which one makes a difference.
Oil companies are a business. Make it really expensive for them to be cheesey, politico buying, scum sucking, dirty rotten, cheating pigs, and they'll stop. No profit. As long as we in this country worship at the altar of the almighty dollar, and sell our government to the highest bidder, expect no different. Again, your choice... always has been, always will be.
Like is said... not brain surgery.More specifically, most counties have a County Auditor whose job it is to inspect that the pumps are properly calibrated, and it is reasonable to point your Auditor to an NIST report. Generally, there are stickers on the pump with information on how to contact the County Auditor. A friend of mine got billed for 16 gallons pumped into his 15 gallon tank a couple months ago and raised hell about it. I imagine this type of manipulation is more common than people notice.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Gee, the cockney slang police have turned this whole discussion septic.
£0.81p per litre unleaded 95 in UK?!! Lucky bastards!! In Denmark it is more like £1 per litre and I think Norway is even worse. So USA can't have any whining rights at $0.50-£0.26 per litre. :)
That was either the start of something bad or the end of something stupid. -Bun Bun
The sage advice has always been to buy gas before 10am. Of course, being forthrightly compensated for warmer less dense fuel would be better. As Michael Moore repeatedly suggests in his new movie - and this is rightly the subtitle of the movie - it's long overdue for Americans to be MORE like the French and make our government and corporations afraid of us rather than the other way around. It's the French (and Canadian)people screaming "Jump!", and the French guv'mint and big biz meekly asking, "How high?"
Sorry about the movie spoiler. Or not.
I have no idea which world you live in, but I live in the real one. At some point common sense has to kick in.
Go work out the difference in volume of gasoline at the two temperatures. Then take a look at the acceptable accuracy of the pumps themselves.
Deleted
Please, we like it that way!!!!!
Thats how I describe the temperature of the fuel I usually get. I love filling my motorcycle's tank on a burning hot day. Sitting in the sun the seat and tank can get quite toasty, but fill'er up and sometimes its a little cold.
-John Fenley
Because Hybrid technology will preserve, if not exaggerate, the number of larger vehicles on the road. GM is coming out with hybrid TAHOEs and other large vehicles. Not the fake hybrids of the previous generation but real hybrids.
As the tech advances even large vehicles will get better mileage than many midsize cars of these days and as such people will have even less inclination to buy a baby car.
Also, whats wrong with SUVs and trucks? Many familes can afford two cars and one has to pull double duty. Own a home and loading garden supplies into your civic isn't going to cut it. Want to pull a boat or trailer (we are allowed to go on vacations aren't we???) and your little car won't cut it.
Honestly all the SUV/Truck hate is misplaced. It comes down to perception, you only get to see how someone else uses a vehicle how much each day? 15 minutes or so on the expressway? So the wife/husband drives the SUV to work by themselves, when they get home its hauling kids, the dog, going on camping trips, taking the neighbors kids to the ball game, etc... you don't see that yet in your selfish world you still want to pass judgement.
Look, quit trying to guilt America. People like you need to GET OVER YOURSELVES. This is a free society and as such people should be free to do as they please provided it does not deprive another of life and liberty. Just because you cannot justify a SUV for yourself or someone else does not mean they cannot justify for themselves. They know their needs you do not.
So, grow up and realize you don't know everything, let alone everyone.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Why is this a troll? I always feel the same way when Americans are being dramatic when the rest of the world pays at least twice as much "a gallon". In Belgium it is atm 1.3EUR/liter,
which is (3.7 * 1.3) 4,81EUR/gallon
which in turn is (4,81 * 1.3) 6,25USD/gallon.
I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
Remember when merchants had to SATISFY the customer? In order to ensure they didn't short-change customers, bakers would sell you a dozen loaves and give an extra one, in case the batch was a little underweight.
.1% change in revenue wipe out their profit? No? So there's no problem. It's just that Joe Average is ripping off Texaco an insignificant ammount.
So if this is a miniscule problem, as the Oil companies state, why not set the temperature of petrol at 80F rather than 60? Will a
I can tell you we received the "correction" and it went both ways. We'd break about even spring/fall (very little correction)with summer/winter( making a little more in summer vs. winter) giving us an small overall gain. For the whole year it was on the order of about $.005 US/gallon. Our market would have have adjusted retail prices to compensate had we not received the correction. When one makes 5 cents per gallon 1/2 cent can be the difference between staying in business or not. This is a non issue.
Steve
If he really thinks we're the Devil, then let's send him to Hell.
The problem is not the cents per galon, but the thousands of galons you could save if gas was more expensive.
It is roughly the average temperature.
In any case, even if we changed the standard to "favor" consumers, oil companies would just adjust their prices accordingly and nothing would change...except for that consumers would be stuck paying for a bunch of sensors that pointlessly increase the accuracy of dispensed gasoline.
So they say it's too expensive to modifiy the pumps. Alright, how much does it cost to put a 5$ thermometer in the fuel tank, and give them a spreadsheet with the cost difference, and a 2$ calculator. They can lower their prices when the fuel volume changes enough to affect the price by more than say, 3 cents per adjustment. Wouldnt that be fair?
~~ Please keep your arms, legs, and outright stupidity inside the ride at all times. Thank You ~~
Anyway, global warming is only BS. Look! It's cold outside, even though we're in July.
So gas in canada, without the temperature sensing devices, contains more energy per gallon than in a generally hotter environment down south.
.... what amounts to nothing in comparison to the real problem.
But that can be compensated for in grade of fuel you receive for the dollar. There are generally three grades of gasoline.
However, IS NOT THIS ALL REALLY JUST BITCHING ABOUT PENNIES WHEN COMPARED TO THE DOLLARS OF PROFIT GAINED FROM GAS HIKES???
Lets ignore the gas hikes, I remember when gas was 25 cents a gallon (how would Tempature relate to that?)
And Lets ignore ALSO the Auto Industry who just can seem to get hardly any more miles a gallon out of technology....cause they really don't want to.. We should today be getting like over 100 miles a gallon...
So instead lets pull this distraction of bitching about
However if this penny thing can lead to helping the bigger things change... then maybe.. but I doubt it.
i wonder how much the fuel actually changes... in my 12 years of driving i've never heard people complain about heat affecting gas pumps until now - and we've had a very mild summer this year compared to summers in the past.
i do know the lawyers are going to benefit. the citizens in the class action lawsuit will likely not see much, if any, money - but i guarantee you the lawyers are gonna get a nice check.
just remember that.
. . . I can tell you that the c-stores are much more interested in making sure they don't run out of gas. Fuel and cigarettes have become commoditized to such a point that retailers can't grow their business with the stuff anymore and are actually expanding through things like newer, larger store formats and food service programs. I never heard anyone making a big deal out of temperature fluctuations -- the retailers certainly don't gain / lose significant amounts of money because of it.
They are, however, very concerned with having a tank run out -- meaning they can't sell any gas, period. Typically, they already have in-tank sensors for fuel levels, even on moldy old pre-IP equipment. I was onsite at an install last December at a rather large store and this happened for about 15 minutes -- the forecourt controller went down and had to be rebooted -- and *everyone* in the store dropped what they were doing and attended to the problem. The retailers' margins are razor-thin with fuel so they have to make money by selling a ton of it -- and they can't do that when they don't have any or when the dispenser-related equipment is down.
in the state of Hawaii.
So there!
I have difficulty to belive that canada gas companies added any sort of sensors to compensate. All the pumps i ve seen are tagged "price/volume based on a 20 degree Celcius average". And i can assure you the price isnt going down when its hotter in the summer.
Sure, sure. File a lawsuit because you heard on the news that liquids expand when hot so that when you buy gas on hot days you're getting a tiny percentage less gas than on cool days.
Then drive your car or SUV , that you haven't had tuned up or replaced the air filter on in years, around with under-inflated tires and 150 pounds of unneeded crap in the trunk and backseat.
Really brilliant idea. Penny wise, pound foolish.
Normally I'd be one of the first to take umbrage at posts bemoaning the litigousness of my fellow countrymen but these lawsuits even get my goat.
Sell it by the kilo
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
ensures a standard temperature, what's the big deal?
Meddle thou not in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy and with most anything.
Same here. In Ottawa all the pumps claim to be volume corrected to a specific temperature.
That means in Canada, the liter is a measure of mass.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
So do the spiked shells help regulate the temperature, or are they just for show?
Yeah Mythbusters!! Because I'm a fat tard too who would rather see a bunch of half-baked idiots perform flawed tests to get data that is already well represented in published literature@!!!!
Am I the only American on the planet rooting for higher food prices in the 3rd world? Higher prices for food equals less surviving adults and children which equals less world congestion. I live in the US now, and $10-$20 a day for sustanance is the norm. Get over yourselves already poverty stricken countries. /end sarcasm
Wanting others to suffer because it fits into your world view is pretty short cited if you ask me...
My car gets 23.3mpg during the winter months and 27-30mpg in the Summer. I always get gas from the same station (Except for when I played Russian Roulette at a Costco) around the same time in the day. Whatever they put in/remove during the winter kills it. I smell a conspiracy!
doh!
Evidently I'm not the only one with the same world view, so please don't credit me for it. Trying to get everyone to conform to the US-way is no less short-sighted.
They're even right. Consumers have accepted it so far. Heck, they don't have much of a choice, do they? Now if this were a real industry, you know with competition and stuff, one of the players would offer a choice, a better deal to the consumer, and in exchange gain a higher market share. Since it isn't, he won't.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
You "blogged" about it.
BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAA
Holy crap you're a loser.
The Ford 460 was a common truck engine a couple of decades back (I once worked a summer job for a guy who had one with it and you should have seen people's faces when we passed them at 90 mph while pulling a medium/small tractor going up a hill!)
Currently, Chrysler (and maybe Ford too) have V10 gas engines available that are probably even more powerful. In addition to that, you can get a turbocharged diesel engine in most full-sized pickups for some serious pulling capability and get (relatively speaking) decent mileage. Trucks have an edge because they don't have all the extra weight of RV and are specifically designed with compromises in favor of carrying/pulling vs an RV which is more slanted toward comfortably driving retiree's and vacationers to the next campsite.
I am really curious about what will happen when they throw hybrid technology into the mix (ala diesel elctric locomotives) as far as pulling power and efficiency. If they can use lightweight battery or some kind of super capacitor technology, it might be a big win.
Of course it's already done in Canada (and done so voluntarily by the big oil/gas producers/sellers) as it is in "their best interest." That's how most large corporations run, not in the interest of the people . . . not even in the interest of fairness and honesty. They operate solely to line the pockets of the top executives and board members. They need to pay for their arrogance. I think the regulating government agency in the U.S. should require that these corporations install temperature sensors in all fuel pumps or tanks (whichever is more economical, since we the people ARE fair) at the expense of the big oil/fuel producers/sellers. They should have been installing them as a matter of course. The temperature sensors should be integrated into every new pump that is manufactured/installed, and pumps older than a given factor should be mandated to be replaced with one of these new pumps.
Simple, problem solved. Buy electricity by Amps.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
But in another more accurate way, Barney is the winner.
Someone asked the Car Guys about this just last week to settle a bet. I wonder if that set off the lawsuit. Some people are so quick to call their lawyers. Anyway, Tom and Ray said that technically fuel did expand when warm, but they guessed that the temperature of fuel in a large underground tank didn't vary enough to make more than a fraction of a cent of difference per gallon. That sounded reasonable to me, since I can keep my house much cooler just by closing the curtains.
Those darn oil companies. In summer, they screw you by serving you hot gasoline. In winter, they screw you by reducing the energy content of the gasoline. Someone should do something about it!
Seriously, what would be accomplished by accounting for expansion? If they install the sensors, then they would adjust their prices to compensate for temperature. Does it really matter that the volume is inexact, as long as all gas stations consistently use the same inexact method of measuring the volume?
Odd thing about the Canadian gas market -- the prices posted at gas stations are almost always identical when driving around town. The government claims that it's simply the result of an efficient market, but I notice that prices don't converge like that in the US. I know, US prices are per gallon, and Canadian prices are per litre, but still... in the US, it's common to see two gas stations at an intersection with wildly different prices, and that never happens in Canada.
current pickup trucks (none of these engines are available in the SUV's normally) with V10's are getting around 400-480ftLB in torque. the Ford 460 generated a little over 560ftlb in torque stock unleashing another 85ftlb in that engine was easily done with small bolt on upgrades. The 460 is an incredible torque monster because ti was designed for low rpm high power and still is today as ford still makes and sells the 460 (gen III) in the big delivery vans and straight trucks (box/flatbed not pickup) Current motorhomes are geared for economy and "comfort" but if you disengage the 2 speed rearend (usually fixed in high gear for economy) to be in the lower gearing and turn off overdrive you can easily pull as much as any big truck as the frame and guts are still there. they are built on a box truck platform.
I have one friend that has a newer (1998) 26ft class C motorhome that easily pulls a second 24 foot trailer (old steel one not the light aluminum trailers of today that anything can pull) without seeing more than a loss of 1 mpg.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Some of the stress on food prices might be reduced with this kind of plant: http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stori es/2007/07/03/0703bizrange.html. Their process works like this: http://www.rangefuels.com/conversion_process. s -selling-solar.html
--
Solar: The fundemental alternative: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Why the tag "greedybastards" is on this story? Unless the greedybastards tag is referring to the gas companies.
If they're going to screw us from behind every chance they get, why shouldn't we get to do it back? This is a legitimate claim, IMO. There really is less coming out of the pump when the liquid is hotter. Gasoline as a liquid is especially susceptible to this.
I'm not a greedy asshole.. I'm pissed off because I don't really believe that the gas price should be as high as it is, at all. Not just in the USA, either. Something is awry.
Internet: Serious Business
Oh really, temperature sensors installed in Canadian gas pumps? All the pumps I've seen here in Ontario bear a small label stating "Volume corrected to 15*C".
Aikon-
Not that I disagree entirely, but when the price of fuel goes up, the price of anything transported by truck goes up as well...like food, for instance. See: Meat Poultry & Egg Prices On The Rise.
Although some of this is from feed prices going up as farmers switch corn production to ethanol, you can't say that price gouging and anti-competitive collusion at the pump - which is what we are seeing now - is anything but bad for consumers, drivers and the real economy. If costs rise to transport goods, than those cost will be reflected in prices that WE pay.
Free market...riiiight. Profits for Exxon, $4.00 a gallon (which is less dense than a gallon that is 20 degrees cooler) for me. Or, even if I junk my car and hang-glide to work, $4.00 for a loaf of bread at the supermarket. Wait, let me pinch out a tear for our corporate overlords...
i am the opposite of tom_good, i am the XOR of ]=9fÆ"ÝÕ and ÖÆ\KF, i am 746F6D5F6576696C00.
Remember that if hot fuel is piped into a highly insulated area, it will stay hot. It will not automatically cool to the temperature of the surrounding earth. Also, remember that solids have a high thermal capacity. A cool rock won't heat up very easily because you have to pump a lot of energy into compared to what you'd have to pump into a similar volume of, say, water. But once it's warm it won't cool very easily either, because it has a lot more energy it's holding.
Thus, if you pump hot fuel into an insulated underground tank (likely), it will stay hot, regardless of the surrounding - because it's insulated. But assuming some heat bleed, once that surrounding area is heated, it will stay warm and continue to warm the fuel - probably a good reason to insulate the tank. Finally, are these tanks pressurized? I have to imagine that would also affect things.
[Ego]out
One problem is if we force them to use temperature sensors what do you think they will do to make up the lost money? Raise gas prices to make up for lost profits.. so I dont think the consumer will win either way. Its like the catch 22 what do you do? What we should do is allow US companies to drill for oil in the gulf (the gulf is international waters so other countries can, and are, without having to conform to US law..) that way we dont have buy it from other countries that dont care to sell it to us for tons of $. Heck we have tons of gas right in our own back yard and our neighbors are getting it and selling it right back to us. Whats wrong with that picture?
Moreover, gas is priced competitively. Some gas stations sell the gas cheaper than others and this competition drives the price lower. If there were temperature sensors the gas would just be more expensive to compensate PLUS pay for the temperature sensors.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Umm, has anyone checked the temperature up here lately? Yesterday we hit 36 Degrees Celsius (that's around 96 Degrees Fahrenheit) and it supposed to go higher still. Colder? Not by much!
Okay... so I'm selling you a product for an arbitrary price. .007 cents per gallon.
I have to make $500k to stay in business.
I want to make $100k more to keep me working in the business (since that gives me $80k take home). Say that works out to
Now you change the law- make me install new sensors- etc. etc.
I'm still going to want $80k take home pay. I still have to make $500k to keep the business going. Who is going to pay for the sensors, installation, and monitoring? Me? The oil company? No.
Of course-- you are going to pay for installing the sensors, installation, and monitoring. So the price is going to be more accurate- but it is going to be higher.
It's part of the reason cars that are $10,000 in some countries are $23,000 here. A long series of "well this is only $200 so we should require it" laws has grossly inflated our car prices. It inflates our labor costs too.
So you can be over charged and pay $1.08 for $1.00 of gas and spend $525 a year on gas or you can be accurately charged for the gass and spend $535 a year on gas.
Your call. People should let this particular issue go in my opinion.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Once in a blue moon our legislators actually do work and they came up with a solution to this issue. Instead of installing new equipment they just adjusted the price. It used to be $0.XX 9/10 per litter , now is $0.XX 7/10 per litter (thats XX cents plus some fraction of a cent). So they just reduced the price a few fractions of a cent to compensate.
Not much but at least is something.
The best test environment is production. - Me
chrome://browser/content/browser.xul
Obviously if you buy gasoline from the "James Brown Service Station" it is going to be hot gas. Ow! Hot gas!
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
So someone's proposing that gas be priced according to the temperature outside... even though the temp of the gas (far underground) is still quite cool. Anyhow, what would stop oil companies from changing the price throughout the day? Say, crank up the price right before/during rushhour or saturday/sunday mornings? If the electric/phone companies can charge you more for using their services during 'peak hours' why not the oil companies?
/. crowd, How low do gas prices need to go before the american public will be satisfied?
I watch people water their lawns at 2pm (I'm in Calif) where its 90degrees out, or one lady down the street washes down her sidewalk every day with the garden hose. would she care if someone raised the price of water $.01/gal? doubt it. But god help those that raise the price of oil $.01.
My larger question to the
WFT is that? Even better, they don't round off in the typical =.5 is 1
Sheesh...you pay by the gallon, you are getting a gallon. If that means that gas prices are slightly higher in the summer because gas pumps are calibrated for a temperature that is slightly less than ambient in the tank, then so freaking what?
Some sleazy class-action lawyer thinks he can make a cool couple of million by getting consumers riled up over gas prices, and everyone here is falling for it. All this means is that the lawyer(s) handling the class action suit get rich, gas customers make an extra hundred bucks when the lawsuit is finished, the gas companies eat a few million dollars, but raise gas prices even more to compensate, gas stations install expensive temperature compensating devices to make sure the pumps are metering "fairly" and the cost of the new equipment forces gas stations to raise costs even more. Besides, in the winter time, when temperatures are well below 60 degrees F, aren't you getting more than you pay for from the gas pump?
So what exactly do we accomplish by all of this???
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
What you said got me thinking. What if these guys were hired by Big Oil to force this into effect in order to raise their profit margin. Make it look as if the lawyers are fighting for the little guy, when in fact they are shills for the industry...
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
There is nothing wrong here. The price advertised is for a gallon. You pay for a gallon, you get a gallon. If it bothers you that the amount of energy in a gallon changes based on the temperature, find someone who will sell you gas by the pound.
paintball
Yup - I've never seen a pump here in Canada that didn't have a temerature-adjustment sensor, and a government-mandated sticker on the pumping saying so. Hard to believe we're getting screwed less than the Americans on this one!
New Music!
Actually, one major problem in many 3rd world countries *is* low food prices (generally caused by cheap imports). The problem is that a large portion of their population are subsistance farmers, and low food prices means little/no income. Which in turn means it becomes economically infeasible for them to continue to farm, (it costs more to raise the crops then they can sell them for). This then leaves a large population without jobs (or useful skills) who now cannot afford even the cheap food, and a loss of local food production, making the countries more dependent on imports.
I burn a LOT of fuel. I mean a lot. And it's almost all for fun. I don't care how high gas prices go, I'm still going out to play EVERY chance I get. I'll just charge my employer more. While I miss the days of 97 cent gasoline, I wont object to higher prices forcing all the damned commuters, who don't really want to be driving, off the streets so I can go play without you getting in my way at 15 under the damned limit. Maybe you'll start paying for your owned damned bus passes and help force our cities to setup realistic public transport. If there were a bus from anywhere near my home to anywhere near my office, I'd take it, despite the fact that I LOVE driving. I hate putting commute mileage on my cars. But alas, in order to make a trip that's 15 minutes by car, I'd have to spend over an hour on the bus, so I, and everyone else who makes similar trips, drive to work. While I would much prefer cheaper fuel so I could go drive MORE, I'll accept more expensive fuel if it help clear up the roads so I can have more fun doing the same amount of driving. Who the hell cares how it's measured. In colder weather the air charge is colder and your burning more fuel, and in warmer weather it's the other way around, so in the end, just STFU.
All I know is I live in Florida and on a day where the temp is 100 or so I can pump gas, put my finger in the stream and the gas feels pretty chilly. Matter of fact, I've never felt a warm stream of gas. I call BS on all of this. This is about some lawyer wanting to take advantage of a broken tort system. Tort reform! Let me hear ya! Tort Reform! Say it with me now! Tort reform!
Further, the market is so efficient that there are alternatives which don't require you to do business with these people if you feel you're getting ripped off. Capitalism is working well in this case.
I see three obvious issues here: 1.) It's going to cost money to regulate the temperature of the fuel. You'll get different amounts of fuel depending on the temperature, but it averages out on the long-term. If you force regulation of the temperature of the fuel, you've raised the cost of dispensing it regardless of the temperature. 2.) The price you pay is related to the price the stations pay plus their operating costs. As long as all stations in a local market experience similar temperature/volume changes, competition keeps the long-term profits roughly consistent. 3.) Temperature is one of many factors affecting the actual mass of fuel you get. How far does one want to take this? The meters on the pumps have accuracy limits too. There's some fuel left in the hose when you shut the pump off. Some fuel is spilled. Some evaporates (which is why it's best not to fill up in the heat of the day). Some fuel is probably annihilated by those pesky, rare collisions with neutrinos. Etc. It's the same for any product. A 5 pound bag of potatoes is not exactly 5 pounds. I'd give this credence if they thought stations were deliberately heating their fuel to increase the volume, but otherwise this is a waste of resources with a net cost to consumers, and a drain on the legal system. I rather suspect the aforementioned stations in Canada monitor temperature to prevent the fuel from gelling in cold temperatures, not to improve the mass-accuracy of their volume-based meters.
Gasoline temperatures will affect the energy density of the fuel sure, but it makes no significant difference in engine performance.
Do you see why this is the height of stupidity now?
Christ, if your tyres are the wrong pressure or you leave your window open while driving there's a bigger loss.
Deleted
That's basically background noise this close to this large of a mass.
To put it in perspective, you can apply one newton of force on the surface of the earth using earths gravity and 102g of apples, gold, etc.
To apply one newton of force on the surface of the earth using Jupiter's gravity, you would need 5,100 metric tons of the stuff.
(with apologies for the abuse of ambiguous terms)
This is a steaming hot load of something...
Seriously, fuel companies can afford to put them in Canada with nary a complaint, but threaten to upset the status quo in the US and it's a horrible, industry-ending event?
It's pretty simple. Us Canadians made some noise and said "If we're paying for a litre of gas, we want the same litre of gas, every time". And because that just plain makes sense, it was made so. Now I get the same litre, whether it's -50F like it was this winter, or 95F like it was yesterday. It didn't bankrupt the industry or screw over little mom and pop shops.
Ya'll need to stop fuckin around and just do the things that make sense. That'd solve a lot of problems.
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
They don't just say they want to make $80k take-home, they'll take all the money they can get. Oil companies continue to generate record profits, yet spend less on new refineries that would lower the cost of gas to us. Why did the price of gas go up $0.20 the week of memorial day, then immediately go down $0.15? The companies knew that people would be driving more and they would have to buy more gas for their cars so they could gouge a little more from our pocketbooks.
Of course if they want to do this, they should really be charging for amount of energy in the form of gasoline. That would cause the price of ethanol blends to go up since ethanol only contains about 70% of the energy of gasoline by volume. It should go up about 3% or 9 cents a gallon.
Does this imply that buying gas at a certain time of day (ie, early morning, or before it starts warming up again) could be beneficial?
SHUT UP EVERYBODY!
:)
I really don't want to see this problem on my next math exam.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
This is something I've been aware of and have thought about for years, and I do what I can to get the most gasoline per X money by pumping gas during the evening or nighttime. This doesn't bring it down to 60F during the summer, of course, but it's less expensive than pumping during the mid-day heat, and I save even more during the winter months by pumping when the sun is down.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
Great, here comes another dance/song stage performance by Robin Williams sining "BLAME CANADA" for our gas! For crips sakes, just eat less beans!
Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things. - Peter F. Drucker
Are you kidding? FAVOR CANADIANS?
Our price is 1.03$CAD / LITER.
I just came back from Florida, the price there is 2.899$USD / US GALLON.
Do the math. Please.
> These sensors are already installed in Canada, however, where the colder temperatures favor consumers."
Funny, that. If the company loses money, suddenly it's cost-effective to do it.
Reminds me of EverQuest, and why I will never again play another Sony MMORPG. They make a mistake that hurts the customer, say, necromancer pets are suddenly all being cast 3 levels lower than they should be, well, that can wait for the next update in two weeks.
But if something is to the advantage of players, like necros can suddenly cast 2 pets simultaneously, the servers are ripped down that afternoon.
Speaking of this kind of filthy behavior, anyone realize banks and credit card companies want you to get into financial trouble so that they can charge you outrageous interest rates and/or "overdraft" fees. "Oh, we'll cover your $7.50 lunch charge on your debit card, but we'll charge you $36 as an overdraft fee."
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Wasn't it around 45 in Las Vegas yesterday?
Here in Australia, our consumer protection department sorted this out about 4 years ago. The 'consumers' they were protecting was of course in this case the independent fuel station operators.
The solution here was to define an Australian Standard Measurement. All fuels must be measured (or compensated) at the temperature of 15 degrees C, everywhere in the country.
Interestingly, the temperature they have chosen also seems close to what you'd expect the natural underground temperature to be in most parts of the country at the depth where fuel is stored. Another win for Aussie common sense?
Be my friend.
They're earning record profits, so they can afford to underwrite the cost of gas stations installing this equipment.
Laziness does not excuse delivering less fuel than the customer purchased.
Today:
They charge $3.00/gallon, with the density being 6.0 pounds/gallon. (real gallon, no matter the temperature) You pay $0.50/pound.
Future:
They charge $3.20/gallon, with the density being 6.4 pounds/gallon. (fake "gallon", computed as if the fuel were at 60F) You pay $0.50/pound.
Note that your $/pound cost does not change. This is simple economics. You won't be getting extra fuel for nothing! Currently, they don't get extra money for nothing. There are competitors you know, subject to the exact same rules. There is no gravy train for anybody. Got it?
Let's see - $1.1 million divided by 350 million gallons = 0.3 cents per gallon. You can be assured that whatever dimwitted scheme a bunch of ambulance chasing consumer advocate lawyers can think up to supposed save the consumer from paying an extra 0.3 cents per gallon to The Man will cost far more to implement than 0.3 cents per gallon.
Never mind that there are consumers who live in cold climates who get their gas delivered at less than 60 deg - whoo hoo they owe The Man big time!
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
they say that we "lose BTU's in the summer but regain them in the winter" (paraphrasing)
however, has anyone taken into account that people drive more in the summer? think about it, when are kids off of school? when do people take vacations? it's tourist season!
Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
Though out most of the midwest, ground temps are fairly stable at around 55F.
I'd like to see how much the density of fuel actualy varies in the U.S.
Oil companies make more money when they have LESS raw material.
How is this not prima-facia proof of unfair market manipulation?
regards.