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What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection?

WPIDalamar writes "I'm currently working on a piece of commercial software that will be available through a download and will use a license key to activate it. The software is aimed at helping people schedule projects and will be targeted mostly to corporate users. With the recent Windows Vista black screen of death, it got me thinking about what sort of measures I should go through to prevent unauthorized users from using the software. While I don't wish to burden legitimate users, I do want to prevent most piracy. How much copy protection is appropriate? Is it acceptable for the software to phone home? If so, what data is appropriate to report on? The license key? Software version? What about a unique installation ID? Should I disable license keys for small amounts of piracy, like when there's 3 active installations of the software? What about widespread piracy where we detect dozens or hundreds of uses of the same license key? Would a simple message stating the software may be pirated with instructions on how to purchase a valid license be sufficient?"

561 comments

  1. None at all by Ckwop · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I don't wish to burden legitimate users, I do want to prevent most piracy. How much copy protection is appropriate?

    This may not be what you want to hear but any copy-protection will burden legitimate users. Pirates will remove the copy protection from your software and the unprotected version they create will be more usable than the version you offer.

    It doesn't just hurt your customers, it hurts you too. The time you waste trying to create some copy-protection and losing the arms race with the pirates (which you will lose) is time you could have spent making your product better.

    The way to beat the pirates is to provide a better service to your customers than they do. The commonly advocated business model is to provide support on the software to paying users - and since your target is business customers this makes a lot of sense.

    Businesses, by the way, tend not to pirate on the scale of the private user. Piracy is a big risk to business because businesses have very deep pockets.

    In short, the answer is to have no copy protection at all and trust your customers. Trusting the customer is hard but they'll appreciate it.

    Simon

    1. Re:None at all by JohnFluxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree.

      In the work place, most people might enter a fake installation code for example, but won't go as far as to apply a crack. If the software requires you to apply a crack to use it, then I think most people at work will get their company to buy it. If it just installs anyway with just a small nag screen or something, then most people won't buy it.

    2. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Some examples of companies which are successful and include no copy protection:

      - Mysql, Trolltech (they both rely on open source software, and they're still alive).
      - Paradox Entertainment (no copy protection on their software at all, and they're successful). I've got the impression they support their community quite well. And I'm already looking for a shop where I can get Europa Universalis 3.

      Anybody got more examples?

    3. Re:None at all by lukas84 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I disagree, even though just on a tiny bit.

      Businesses tend to purchase software they need, yes, but extending of software licenses is often overlooked.

      e.g. they buy 5 licenses of your software. A year later, a team member is added to the team using said software. Now there are 6 users. Over time, many more people than the original number of licenses will use the software.

      This doesn't happen in all Businesses, but the smaller the more often.

      A good idea would be to add "soft activation". This means customer have to activate your software, and the number of currently active machines counted. Deactivating machines should be running a simple tool that removes the software and decrements the activation count on the server. Activation should never fail (even if the activation server is unreachable), but the customer should be reminded if he is running unlicensed software. This way, you can make sure that users don't mistakenly use to many licenses.

      Criminal elements will of course find ways around this, so i wouldn't bother with making the activation process very secure - it's essentially just a license counter for your honest customers.

    4. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily. If this is fairly specific market stuff, it's unlikely any release group crackers will know or care about it. In this case, some average copy protection may be enough to keep the license enforced.

      I cracked restrictions on a couple of specialist apps we used to use at work, mostly for the fun of doing it but in one case - where data files were rather unfairly "timing out" despite still being perfectly adequate for our purposes, which was NOT mentioned by the vendor - we got some benefit from it. If it had been packed by a copy protection wrapper (that I couldn't find a generic unpacker for) it would have been more trouble than it was worth.

    5. Re:None at all by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 2, Informative

      My recommendation would be Elicense or similar.

      With Elicense, you get an order ID. You enter that, it contacts their server and "unlocks" the software. You can choose how many installations are allowed as well. For example I have a few games that use it that come with two licenses, so you can run it on two computers. Another title only gives you one.

      The install is painless (it installs a license control service that in many years of using I've never had any sort of issue with), and it stops a LOT of piracy. It IS possible to "unwrap" the executable, but of all the Elicense protected software I've used, I've only ever seen one game cracked. (Ironically it is the most obscure of the ones I own.)

      I am vehemently opposed to DRM, copy protection, call it what you will, but I find Elicense extremely inoffensive due to it's ease of use. DRM should not impact legitimate consumers, and this one is the only one I've come across that has never caused me any sort of negative experience.

    6. Re:None at all by struppi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Good points, but I can not completely agree with you. I personally never found it much of a burden to enter a license key. Even a one-time online activation is OK IMHO as long as it's painless. And I can understand why software companies put these measures in, not to stop pirating at all, but to keep the honest people honest.

      I know that piracy is not so much of a problem when it comes to businesses, but consider the following: A company purchased 50 user licenses of a product, but the product has no copy protection whatsoever. Probably the people in charge won't even notice if more than 50 employees install the software - at least not in the companies I have worked so far. OTOH, if this software would have told the 51st user "Your company has no more licenses for you to install the software. You can use this program for another 30 days, but please contact your system admistrators to buy a license for you", the company probably will buy another 20 licenses.

      So, IMHO, one-time activation is OK if it doesn't get too much in my way, but phoning home at every start or some annoying procedure like the Vista phone activation (I went through that once - took me more than 1.5 hours to activate a copy of Vista) is not OK.

    7. Re:None at all by jamesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In short, the answer is to have no copy protection at all and trust your customers.

      It depends on how the product is distributed. If it's downloadable then I think a one off registration key is probably a requirement - it doesn't have to be very complex, just a step so that people won't download the product and not get around to paying you.

      I'm all for trusting people not to be intentionally dishonest, but I think you'd go broke trusting people not to be slack.
    8. Re:None at all by rolfc · · Score: 1

      I second this opinion. One of the reasons I favor GPL is that I don't have to hazzle with licenses. If Oracle can sell software without copy-protection, so can you. Those who dont want to pay, wont pay anyway.

    9. Re:None at all by aliquis · · Score: 1

      They better have an Internetconnection then.

      I doubt they will love to phone or send snail mail.

    10. Re:None at all by xtracto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      f it just installs anyway with just a small nag screen or something, then most people won't buy it.
      I agree, you just have to see the hundreds of computers I have seen in several different government offices that use WinZip, they invariably show the startup nag screen telling you how many thousands of files have you compressed and asking you to buy it... of course, you just have to click the continue button and keep using it..

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    11. Re:None at all by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A good idea would be to add "soft activation". This means customer have to activate your software, and the number of currently active machines counted. Deactivating machines should be running a simple tool that removes the software and decrements the activation count on the server. Activation should never fail (even if the activation server is unreachable), but the customer should be reminded if he is running unlicensed software. This way, you can make sure that users don't mistakenly use to many licenses.

      Any system that requires an active deactivation through a tool on the machines where it is installed is badly designed, because the host might not be available for deactivation. If a PC dies, and is replaced with a new one, you can't deactivate the old installation. Similarly if a PC is restored to a point before the installation occured -- then it's impossible to deactivate. (This is part of what bit the Biosphere users -- some people installed the software, ran into problems, and rolled back to pre-install, and tried again.)

      Plus, then you have a potential loophole in that people can install on one machine, back it up, deactivate, install it on a second machine, et cetera, and then restore all the backups, and you have a park full of activated copies.

      The only sensible approach that I can see for large scale installations is to count concurrent usage through a network server or appliance, and bill according to peak usage. Anything else is going to create a headache for the admins who have to deal with broken machines and reinstalls on a daily basis, and can't reasonably be expected to hang over people's shoulders to count who is using software either.
    12. Re:None at all by Half+a+dent · · Score: 1

      Taking this just a little further, rather than having an uninstall routine that then contacts the vendor/server and frees the license (like Adobe Acrobat and others now do which is a PITA if a hard disk gets corrupted), have a license file on the server that allows for a set number of concurrent users (like Autodesk's License Manager).

      You then can simply make the installation part of the standard build (if necessary), although you may get the problem of someone forgeting to log out of the software hogging a license and no one knowing his screen saver password!

    13. Re:None at all by FlyveHest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, in short you recommend using a piece of software, that installs another piece of software, that stays on the system after uninstalling the first piece of software (How else could it work, if you have multiple pieces of software that uses it?), and, as you say service, I assume it runs while the original piece of software is not.

      Even though you say that you have never had any problems with it, I would absolutely HATE using anything of the kind, and would actively avoid using any piece of software that uses that kind of activation.

    14. Re:None at all by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      Yes, a downed machine will need to be decremented by support. I don't see this as a big problem, because reinstalling the application will work fine.

      The loophole is not a problem - criminal elements WILL use your software REGARDLESS of any protection.

      The license server thing is bad for Small Businesses (though an option for bigger companies).

    15. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Stardock's Galatic Civilisations 2 :

      No CD copy protection. Once you install, you never need your CD again. You can even use the included serial # to re-download the entire game from us years from now.
      It got very good reviews too, definitely worth a look if you're into deep strategy.
    16. Re:None at all by mmarkusro · · Score: 1

      I second that. I hate it to type in serial numbers. It is not a protection at all. The people who don't want to pay won't pay anyway. Just make the installer big enough so that you can't email it.

    17. Re:None at all by Leebert · · Score: 1

      I personally never found it much of a burden to enter a license key.


      Spoken as a person who has apparently never lost a license key.
    18. Re:None at all by rucs_hack · · Score: 3, Funny

      I doubt they will love to phone or send snail mail.

      Oh I dunno, that used to work in the seventies and eighties. What'd'ya mean that was years ago, eh? Come 'ere you young hooligan, say that again! Get off my Property!

      ZZZzzzzzzzz whut?

    19. Re:None at all by inflex · · Score: 1

      I have to agree here - I'm also a software developer (commercial and OpenSource), the time/effort/money you put into coding up protection systems probably will outweigh your 'savings'. Unless you're an extremely widespread/popular package you'll probably find that piracy/copying tends to do you more good than not (more exposure).

      One side step around pirating though is to provide some sort of updates facilities which then allows you to close the loop on knowing who's got your software installed. Make the update service known, don't try to hide it or be sneaky about it, turn it into a honest feature.

    20. Re:None at all by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah but Oracle and IBM DB2 get away with that because their software is so hard to use that casual users won't do it themselves. Most of their business is based on support anyways.

      Having worked on DB2 internally, even *I* needed to get help debugging error messages, and sometimes even the IBM veterans didn't even know what they meant.

      This is what happens when you only have 16 error codes that read like "network failure" or "database failure". Ok I'm exaggerating, but in all honesty, most of their error codes map to at least a half-dozen DISTINCT and often MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE problems.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    21. Re:None at all by Zeio · · Score: 1

      No copy protection. Dongles get cracked, everything popular gets cracked and keygenned, and activation schemes are a violation of our rights and liberty. Licensing programs with Spirent and Ixia and other test gear right now disgusting. The software is more unreliable than ever before and they charge more and nanny-sit you and you paid for the hardware and have to keep paying for horrible software.

      Another bunch of jerks is Xilinx, you buy FPGAs , and they try charging for basic tools like ISE, ChipScope and HS Serial IO kit. I don't mind paying for IP/cores, but to pay for basic tools, it just SUCKS.

      Copy protection is a waste of everyone's time, and if the software you make doesn't have huge exposure, like Ixia IxExplorer, then pirating almost never occurs, and if your software is super-high-exposure, like Office or Photoshop, thats a GREAT problem to have, you're making billions!

      --
      Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
    22. Re:None at all by teh+moges · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've always considered the best method is a combination of none and some. Have a license key that activates the program. Link the license key to the purchaser. If >x licenses are activated, notify the purchaser. If they didn't know about it, void their last serial number and give them a new one. If this happens too many times (like twice), stop issuing new serial numbers.

      This removes the problem of false negatives (since all activations count) and eventually copied serial numbers will be found as the pirated software spreads.

      You can then do as Citrix does, freely deploy the client software (helpful if you loose the CD) on your website, and sell only licenses instead.

    23. Re:None at all by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      Even though you say that you have never had any problems with it, I would absolutely HATE using anything of the kind, and would actively avoid using any piece of software that uses that kind of activation. You don't work in a corporate environment and/or I doubt you deal with many systems.

      --
      Deleted
    24. Re:None at all by Fuzzypig · · Score: 1

      I'd have to agree with that. No matter what you do someone will make a crack or worse I think, build a keygen. A lot of companies wriet software but use the same license key system for years and years, so once the Mr Cracker has built a keygen, it works version after version. Heaven's above, I've seen cracks and keygens for $5 shareware titles, how cheap and nasty is that?! Don't waste your time making to too complicated it's not worth it. I always liked the "nagware" / "try it for 30 days full" software locks, after 30 days it locks up the most useful parts like save and print that sort of thing, you can still use it to view and operate and get used to it, but it's next to useless until you pay, that will at least make most businesses pay up if their staff want it that badly.

      Like the parent says, spend more time making it better, if it's any good the right people will buy enough to offset the bad people "stealing" it!

      --
      Windows guys please stop pissing on everyone and the Linux guys stop pissing in the wind, hoping to hit Windows guys!
    25. Re:None at all by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      I think you'd be surprised by the amount of piracy that "accidentally" happens in businesses because of users who misunderstand their software's licensing.

    26. Re:None at all by Chelloveck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't work in a corporate environment and/or I doubt you deal with many systems.

      Maybe he doesn't, but I do. And I completely agree with him. Installing a background task just to deal with license keys is bad juju. You recommend Elicense. How many other services are there? This isn't the only program I'm likely to install. How many different license key monitors do you think I want running on my machines? How are they all going to interact with each other?

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    27. Re:None at all by daeg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If WinZip had forced purchases, I doubt it would have become so pervasive. Out of the many millions of installations of WinZip, few probably purchase the software.

      Also remember, I think people tend to pay more willingly for obscure or specialized software. I don't buy WinZip (or WinRar) because I find them to be basic utilities. If I didn't use WinZip, I could just as easily use some other compression utility and be just as happy. However, I'll drop $25 for a well-built, quality SQL browser/editor. Why? It's more obscure, and more likely written by someone just like me.

      If you write your program well, it performs well, and is targeted to corporate users, I don't think you'll run into much piracy that would've otherwise been sales. If you want it deployed in a corporate environment, market it as such -- make it easy for IT to deploy, update, and validate serial numbers or whatever other protections you enable. With any big sale (more than a few licenses) it'd do you well to communicate regularly with the IT department that deployed it to make sure they have no issues, no major user complaints, etc. While it may take time to make those calls, you can find great ideas from users that use it every day and don't think like a programmer.

    28. Re:None at all by DarkMantle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not familiar with ELicense but this sounds similar to what we used at a shop I worked at before.

      Basically the user entered a "product key" and then the system generated a "unique" install ID and contacted the web server for an activation number. What was cool with the one we used was if your product key was 1234-5678-0123-7890 then the first 5 (or 6 I don't recall) characters of the activation request was based on that product key was the same. the last half of the activation request was all hardware ID based. The activation server stored this in the database. So if request with the first 5 digits being the same constantly came in then we'd cancel that key. We sold shop licenses so that quiet often they were installing on at least 5-10 computers so we had the cut off high. Like 30 in x days (lets say 30) or 100 overall. This allowed for them to reinstall after system failures.

      Since it was done just like entering product code and the rest was done in the background, no one ever complained.

      --
      DarkMantle I been bored, so I started a blog.
    29. Re:None at all by mce · · Score: 3, Informative

      ... that stays on the system after uninstalling the first piece of software (How else could it work, if you have multiple pieces of software that uses it?), and, as you say service, I assume it runs while the original piece of software is not.

      You obviously have no clue what you are blabbering about. There is no reason whatsoever why you can't have multiple independent products protected by the same third party mechanism without linking said products together. I know, because I've done it.

      In short: Nobody interested in anti-pirating wants the licensing to be in a dedicated dll, since those are easy to locate, break, and replace. Licensing code should always be fully merged into a key component of the product you're protecting and as such be "invisible". That automatically means that you can have multiple copies of it that are not aware of each other and that are automatically uninstalled together with the product they protect.

    30. Re:None at all by Stevecrox · · Score: 1

      Why did it take you 1.5 hours? I've had to go through the whole windows/office activation dozens of times the longest its taken me is 20 minutes. You know the automated "enter your product key" thing won't work so jab buttons until a phone operator is put on, you'll then get asked how many machines this copy is on? (always say 1) is it the retail or OEM version (say retail as it saves a speech), they'll ask if its your first time (pretty much always going to be no, at this point I'd say "no, I installed a piece of software/hardware it caused the machine to go wonky so I've reloaded it" this response means you skip the next question) next your asked "whats your reason for the reinstall?" (see previous) and finally would you like to take their satisfaction survey (always say no cause its pointless.)

      Sure you can answer the questions honestly but if what your trying to activate is perfectly legitmate I've found it best not to explain what your actually doing, they like to lecture you if you admit to an OEM license but they can't tell if its retail so by just saying retail you save yourself a lecture. Finally for the is this installed on one machine, unless your a business you can't install it on more.

      The activation step is annoying but I've used far worse systems

    31. Re:None at all by GPL+Apostate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have registered a lot of shareware over the past decade and more. In fact, I have ended up with a whole CD-R that I label 'registered shareware' that has folders with all the shareware installers and the cd keys, license files, etc. that are collected with them.

      One of the things I will not do, and it's something that causes me to no longer consider registering or paying for a piece of software, is if it has one of the complicated 'validation' schemes like you describe. I will NOT run a piece of software where I have to pass numbers back and forth from a live server somewhere to generate a 'key' and 'validate' the software. When I see that's how a piece of software works I drop it and move on to consider other packages. I've did so in several instances and it's always turned into money sunk down a hole that was a waste.

      Don't tie my use of your software to your ability to stay in business. I can and will send you money for to register a piece of software. After doing so, I do not want to lose use of it because you happened to go out of business or changed your business plan.

      When Microsoft started using this scheme for 'validating' software is when I decided Microsoft had ceased being an entity I wanted to do business with.

      --
      Microsoft says legacy (serial/parallel) ports are bad. They don't obfuscate the hardware enough.
    32. Re:None at all by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      I do. And I hate these things. At any place that I've worked that uses these background daemons to control licensing, due to the proliferation of various similar programs, we've had to run a special license server -- and usually more than one. FlexLM, LUM, proprietary license solutions, etc., with multiple daemons usually. A typical box might run 25 different license processes. And management is usually a big PITA, because these processes almost always break in some way sooner or later.

    33. Re:None at all by Ender77 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you guarantee his business will be here in a couple of years? Do not put anything in where you have to contact somewhere to get a key/permission. If the company goes down and you have to reinstall the software, you are screwed.

    34. Re:None at all by LarsG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Paradox Entertainment

      One thing to note about Paradox is that they make complex strategy games. Their entire 'copy protection' seems to evolve around providing an excellent printed manual.

      What kind of 'copy protection' to use depends in part on what kind of software it is. Ideally, you want to give the paying customer some sort of advantage over those using the cracked/pirated version. That can range from a cd-key that enable online multiplayer in games to a good printed manual to access to support/community forums on the manufacturers website.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    35. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      FlexLM is a joke. We used to have node locked licences for a number of compilers and other tools. To FlexLM, node locked meant tied to the hard disk volume ID, which was also present in the licence files in clear text.

      The problem was that every so often, someone's computer would get replaced (upgrade/malfunction etc...) and after reinstall, none of the FlexLM locked tools would work. Understandable - FlexLM was 'working', but a major PITA as it would take a couple of days to get licences re-issued from the distributors. Some distributors would also only allow a licence to be reissued once a year, complicating the matter on a number of occasions. At one time, all systems in the company were upgraded/refreshed, meaning almost 400 licences would need re-issuing.

      We got bored with re-licensing very quickly, so decided to use volumeid to change the HDD IDs to match licences. After a reboot, FlexLM knew no difference and we could get on with work.

      The 'node locked' mode of FlexLM is so utterly retarded. Waste of time.

    36. Re:None at all by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      >> I personally never found it much of a burden to enter a license key.
      > Spoken as a person who has apparently never lost a license key.

      Spoken as a person who has apparently never learned to find license keys on the internet.

    37. Re:None at all by MartinG · · Score: 1

      And if it was even slightly more restrictive than that, what do you think people would do?

      Buy it, or opt for one of the better (free of charge, free software) alternatives (7zip for example?)

      The WinZip authors know that by having this free to use version, people will download their version which gives them free advertising and keeps up their market share. This means that when someone decides to spend money, they most likely will go with WinZip.

      It's the same way Microsoft works. They know a lot of the pirates, if stopped completely from using windows for free would not buy it. They would use something else. Bill gates once said that he would prefer people who aren't going to pay anyway to use windows for free rather than use software from competitors.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    38. Re:None at all by EvanED · · Score: 1

      My suggestion? Write the key on the CD itself. If you lose the CD, you've also lost the installation media and are screwed anyway.

      Actually, I never understood why companies don't just print the key right on the CD to begin with. They manage to make unique copies of the cases or manuals or whatever has the key, it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult to put it on the CD too. I would notice that and think "hey, that's pretty nice." (Just provide a second copy of the key on paper so that you don't have to copy down the number before putting the CD in the drive or open the drive once the installation is underway.)

    39. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate MS Project? http://www.agileagenda.com/ Yes, that's why I use Gantt Project which is GPL licensed and multiplatform (Linux, Windows, OS X). What does Agile Agenda offer than Gantt Project doesn't?
    40. Re:None at all by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't know what version of FlexLM you used, but every version I've used does nodelocked licenses by tying to a machine's 'lmhostid', which typically matches the MAC address on the machines first Ethernet card. Hardly unique, to be sure, but AFAIK, faking the MAC address with software doesn't work (but changing it using firmware that allows the MAC to be changed does.)

    41. Re:None at all by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      and the easy way to get around this is have a setup written in english in the form of single license =$ group license =N*Y*$ (where N is the number of copies and Y is a discount factor rigged according to the number of copies say 0.9 for the first group and 0.25 for the 100,000 range). Server authentication is wrong if its more than once
      (i will give you a push on auth during updates)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    42. Re:None at all by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      This may not be what you want to hear but any copy-protection will burden legitimate users. Pirates will remove the copy protection from your software and the unprotected version they create will be more usable than the version you offer.

      I could not agree more. I'm going to give a real life personal example of how I stopped using a commercial product that I bought because of the copy protection and general "all our customers are thieves" attitude of the company that made it.

      I am not going to go into too many details because I have a lot of negative stuff to say and companies are very litigious these days. I bought a computer translation program that can translate each way between English and an Eastern European language that speak and read very well, but not fluently. I had a relationship with a girl who spoke this language and her ability to speak English was very poor, so we communicated in her language. She wrote to me in her language and there were always some words I didn't know. To save time, I used the translation program for quick and dirty translations of her email into English, which I would then compare against the foreign language original to be sure the translation made sense and I'd look up in a dictionary anything that seemed wrongly translated. It saved me a lot of time to have English language translations of her email available, plus, when I wrote to her in her language, I would run in through the program to translate back into English and any words that didn't translate at all were misspellings by me in her language, so it was a nice way to spell check what I wrote to her.

      This program runs under Windows, of course, so as often happens with Windows, I had some serious problems and I had no choice but to reinstall everything from scratch. The problem with the translation program is that it has a key that gets activated after you purchase a license. It's a one time activation. If you reinstall the software and use the same key, it won't ever activate. I contacted the company and explained how I had to reinstall Windows from scratch (and I had to do so because my PC had become inoperative) and they told me to buy another copy. They offered me a marginal discount on the price, but they were adamant that I would buy another copy and it was too bad that I reinstalled, but they wouldn't help me to make that original copy work again. I was very unhappy, but I bought another copy of the program. I really did not like at all the implication that I was a thief, but that's what I thought they were thinking. Some time later Windows screwed me over again and I had to reinstall everything from scratch. I didn't buy another copy of the program. I just used the free Babelfish translator instead. It's not as good as the commercial product I was using and it has limitations as to how much text it can translate at a time, but it's free. Windows is so sucky that I know that I will eventually have to reinstall everything from scratch again, so I'm tired of wasting my money buying a product that will cease to work on my next reinstall. The company in question has lost me forever as a customer. My relationship ended with the girl and I have no need for such software now, but even if I did, I would never buy from the company again.

      If you treat your customers like thieves when they are not, you will lose them. The more you protect yourself against thieves, the more likely it is that it will actually encourage people to try to crack your software so they can use it properly. Since my experience, I have been told by somebody how to reactivate an existing license of the product after a reinstall of Windows so I could, in theory, reactivate my old purchased version of the product since my most recent reinstall. I just don't care anymore to use the product because I don't like the attitude of the people who make it toward their customers. I can tell you all that their attitude of "the customer is always wrong" is very typical of the country where this software is made.

    43. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't tie my use of your software to your ability to stay in business.

      If he can't stay in business why would he care if you use the software. It is supposed to be a self serving circle of mutual benefit.

      I can and will send you money for to register a piece of software.

      I highly doubt it you would pay the premium price for software with absolutely no protection, that would be needed to offset the cost lost sales. See I woulnd't mind releasing software with no protections whatsoever, my sales would be 10x less, i'd have to charge 10x more, and nobody would buy a piece of software for $199 where it should have been $29. So the cycle continues.

    44. Re:None at all by daenris · · Score: 1

      Exactly. This is one of the most effective, and least invasive methods of copy protection I've seen. I use a software program called Presentation at my job (www.neuro-bs.com) that uses exactly this method and we've never had problems with it. Once we did have a computer die with it on, but a quick call to support and they were able to deactivate the license for us. Assuming you don't have computers dying everyday and support starts getting suspicious, this works very well.w

    45. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      In the work place, if you don't offer licensing that allows site-wide installation without putting a bookkeeping hardship on the IT manager, and without requiring an internet connection for every install or reinstall, they are going to buy your competitor's product.

      Even Microsoft caves in to this pressure.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    46. Re:None at all by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

      In the work place, most people might enter a fake installation code for example, but won't go as far as to apply a crack. If the software requires you to apply a crack to use it, then I think most people at work will get their company to buy it. If it just installs anyway with just a small nag screen or something, then most people won't buy it. Really? You can get your company to buy the tools you need to do the job? That's amazing.. I've had no luck at all at the companies I've worked for. In fact, one company even suggested I find a crack on the Internet for the software I needed. Other companies just tell me to use the software they provided, even though it doesn't have the features I need. Thank for OSS.. Without that, I wouldn't be able to do my job...

      It's amazing that companies will pay thousands for licensed copies of Windows and Office, but won't spend a few bucks on usable software like WSFTP, SecureCRT, etc...
      --
      XenoPhage
      Technological Musings
    47. Re:None at all by struppi · · Score: 1

      Hey, good tips, thanks!

      To be honest, part of the 1.5 hrs was that I tried to do an activation over the internet. Since 30 days had passed Windows would not let me log in anymore and it also would not let me use the PPTP connection I had already configured. So I tried to configure a new connection in the activation dialog, which didn't allow me to turn off password encryption (which is not supported by my ISP). Then I went through the whole phone thing (automated thing didn't work), and there were some additional questions because the Windows License is part of an Action Pack Subscription.

      Anyway, this is too much of a hassle for me, this is beyond the point where I accept copy protection as "Hey, they want to earn money too..."

    48. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >I have registered a lot of shareware over the past decade and more. In fact, I have ended up with a whole CD-R that I label 'registered
      >shareware' that has folders with all the shareware installers and the cd keys, license files, etc. that are collected with them.

      '
      1. I've outlived more than a couple of developers, both in the sense that individuals died and that companies vanished. I may or may not ever use their software again, but that's my decision not theirs.

      2. I've used software in emulation of 20+ year old hardware, and not just for games.

      I will buy software that gives me a license key which I am responsible for keeping.

      I will not buy software that's tied to some specific device (e.g., Synchrosoft or ILok dongle, don't even assume "USB" or current architecture), nor will I buy anything that has to "call home" (will you still be answering in 20 years? I'm not willing to take the chance that you'll answer *tomorrow*.)

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    49. Re:None at all by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bing bing. Give that man a dollar.

      Working in a larger environment, the ONLY software we allow ANY kind of phone-home / activation shenanigans is from large vendors that have a proven business record - you know they will be around tomorrow / 3 years from now. Not thrilled about it in any case, but we will deal.

      Any smaller vendor is required to put source code in escrow for any such eventuality, and none of that activation crap. We need to be able to move software from one machine to another without someone's blessing in order to handle EOL replacement, swapping out failing hardware, etc.

    50. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better yet, DON'T distribute something in the first place if you don't want it copied.

      Sheesh, it's like these Web designers who put crap JavaScript on their pages to try to keep you from saving their precious copyrighted images on the page. If you didn't want me to have it, why did you let me download it??

    51. Re:None at all by samkass · · Score: 1

      In the work place, most people might enter a fake installation code for example, but won't go as far as to apply a crack. If the software requires you to apply a crack to use it, then I think most people at work will get their company to buy it. If it just installs anyway with just a small nag screen or something, then most people won't buy it.

      I think this is exactly right. Look at WinZip. I've seen places that use it in a "trial" mode for years. If it disabled itself and required a "crack", companies would just buy it rather than trust a hacker on their company's network.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    52. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 1



      >Spoken as a person who has apparently never lost a license key.

      I still consider a license key, which I am given responsibility to keep track of, to be the only acceptable form of copy protection.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    53. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Why did it take you 1.5 hours? I've had to go through the whole windows/office activation dozens of times the longest its taken me is 20 >minutes.

      I've had MSDN activation take six weeks. It would have been longer, but my organization threatened to sue. That is, they actually went as far as filing the suit in Federal District Court. Only then did someone with decision making authority at Microsoft contact us, and give us license keys that would activate.

      I thought it would be fun to sue Microsoft and win :-)

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    54. Re:None at all by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      It's a big issue when you need the software to complete a project, working against the clock, and you have to re-install for whatever reason. I actually prefer using the cracked versions of most software at work just to avoid this hassle. Again, it's a case of the illegal version offering improved functionality.

    55. Re:None at all by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      You obviously didn't read what i wrote - even with failed activation, the software will still work, just reminding the user that he is not licensed.

    56. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      >Having worked on DB2 internally, even *I* needed to get help debugging error messages

      I worked in a heterogenous IMS/DB2 mainframe shop where we literally had a full time person just to organize the DB2 documentation.
      One whole shelf was devoted to messages.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    57. Re:None at all by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Sad but true. It's all done on purpose though. If they put helpful error messages then you wouldn't have to call IBM support to sort out why you get a 4621 error or whatever. I lost entire days due to not knowing why a benchmark run would complete.

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    58. Re:None at all by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      --In the work place, most people might enter a fake installation code for example, but won't go as far as to apply a crack. If the software requires you to apply a crack to use it, then I think most people at work will get their company to buy it. If it just installs anyway with just a small nag screen or something, then most people won't buy it.--

      I agree some corps will buy one and install many if you don't have something. I have heard of a hardware lock that doubles as usb memory device so that you can take your work home and just have one license.

      Here is a link to one that is used on many CAD systems.
      http://www.aladdin.com/

    59. Re:None at all by pjr.cc · · Score: 1

      I agree, none at all.

      But as someone stated, most companies do work hard to stay 'legit' when it comes to software, at the consumer level its an entirely different story for the most part. Being that i work 20% of the time as a project manager (on average) your looking at a number of people who your aiming

      1st is the company project manager, he'll use whatever the company dictates and he may look around for alternatives and propose the ocasional piece.
      2nd is the consultant PM - he will often use what ever his company dictates of whatever the client wants him to use
      3rd is the contract PM - he will typically use whatever the company he's contracting at will want him to use.

      But piracy is a tool you can use to your benefit (im not going to quote obvious examples here!). If some cheap contractor decides to head out to a company with a pirated version of your software, that's eyes on your product. The otherside to the story is that if your product is worth pirating, it'll be pirated. Show me a piece of software that you cant find a crack/serial number for and i'll show you a piece of software that is either so niche that only a select group use it or a piece of software that no one wants.

      If you can understand why the old RIAA/MPAA music pirated = lost sales argument is flawed then maybe you can see why its as valid for software as well.

      As for what i would implement (and i wouldn't, but if i did) i'd go for a custom online-activation solution with some call-home code in it. it doesnt get more intrusive than that for users (assuming they're pirating), but if you are going to go to the effort of coding in an anti-pirate solution, it had better be something near unbreakable because your otherwise just wasting lines of code and time which = $.

      Now you can either implement something yourself or you can use a pre-existing solution and both have pro's and con's. Pre-existing API's tend to have known work-arounds and as such make it easier for the would-be software cracker to break it and custom means your going to spend alot more time implementing it.

      The most effective tool i've seen used though is nag screens, all the utility-style applications use them to good effect (winzip, winrar, etc). But hey, if your a software developer you probably have a better idea about it than many of the people here.

    60. Re:None at all by InvalidError · · Score: 1

      I would opt for minimalist protection: just enough to be able to count active licenses so the users would know when their license limit has been reached.

      Since the software is intended to be used in project management, I'd hate to have to fight a flaky copy-protection scheme to access critical project details while deadlines fly by. If such business-critical software had a WGA-esque outage that cost my company $100k in delays and wasted time, there is a good likelihood that lawyers would be summoned to seek some sort of relief and guarantees that this will never happen again from the software provider.

    61. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huge problem with the 'sell support instead of software' model if you are the developer of the software. You have a large disincentive to make the software user-friendly and bug-free.

    62. Re:None at all by Ragein · · Score: 0

      You have no idea how many users got annoyed when i told them their department had to pay to use winzip, In the end I just kept a copy of 7zip on my USB key!

      --
      They fitted George Orwell's coffin with rollers so he could turn over more easily years ago.
    63. Re:None at all by woboyle · · Score: 1

      The problem with services like Elicense or any other sort of online validation is the fact you have to be on line. I travel to and work with people in the hinterlands of central America where there is no reasonable internet connection, yet people do have and use computers in their daily lives and do use various sorts of commercial software. If I have to maintain a connection to the internet to run a software package, it automatically is eliminated from my portfolio. If it needs a connection just to install it, I am 75% likely to eliminate it as well since I may need to re-image my system while out of contact with the network and then would not be able to reinstall the package that I am relying upon. My take is, no DRM or other license restrictions is the only good (acceptable) DRM. Trust your customers and they will trust you...

      --
      Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real-time.
    64. Re:None at all by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      The point about obscure software is a good one. Being poor, (and unethical) I tend to buy very little software. Obscure software, so obscure that very few people have any use for it, rarely has any published cracks or keygens available. It is the only software that I have ever had to crack myself (which was actually a lot of fun). However more sophisticated copy protection would not have been worth the effort for me. If it were really a matter of life or death to use the software I would have bought it if it weren't too expensive. Usually, however, I just live without the software since there are few software packages that are priced for unemployed people. I'm not sure what software could qualify as being so important however. Pacemaker control software perhaps?

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    65. Re:None at all by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Businesses, by the way, tend not to pirate on the scale of the private user. Piracy is a big risk to business because businesses have very deep pockets.
      And business generates user-piracy, where employees pirate the software to use it at home. This increases their proficiency with the software, and they are more likely to suggest using it if they change jobs (or to other companies they deal with).
    66. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Past performance is a poor indicator of the future. It's a throw of the dice. We should demand that ALL vendors of protected software put the code into escrow, and, as long as copyright remains on the books, we should codify a fixed set of circumstances(such as response time from the vendor. Three days sounds good to me to prevent "hostage taking") when a program becomes abandonware. The real solution of course is to abolish copyright and tell people they will get paid for performing work and not simply squatting on information and collecting the rent. It's an equal rights issue to us who actually have to live under those conditions.

      --
      What?
    67. Re:None at all by Frumious+Wombat · · Score: 1
      Having dealt with licensed software over the years, as a lab manager, in order:

      • None. Hardest on you, as you have to trust your customer. Offer pricing in reasonable increments to encourage compliance.
      • Activation Key. Not much better than none, but still reminds customer of unique nature of each install
      • Activation Key, Phoned Home. Deltagraph does this one. You can install the same copy twice, but it will tell you the second install is already registered to "Name". This is also a gentle reminder that you know how many copies they're running under that one license key.
      • Activation Key, Node locked. Hash some detail of the machine and license key, store that as a unique, and be done with it. Photoshop does this. Allowing a second install, not running concurrently, is a good policy in case a machine goes down, and they can't contact you, or someone uses both a desktop and laptop, but not both simultaneously
      • License Server. Macrovision FlexLM seems to be the dominant one in technical circles. For the end-user, pretty unobtrusive and installs are simple. Someone has to maintain the server of course, but adding new users is just installing the new key and making it reread its database. Note, I tend to despise this one, but mainly because of early experiences on SGIs. It's become more stable, but it's still an avoid where possible.
      • Dongle. Never do this. It eats USB ports, and current versions are the size of a chiclet. I get indigestion worrying about the fate of a $1000 chiclet plugged into end-user machines.
      --
      the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
    68. Re:None at all by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      In the US anyways, that's a sure way to get fired. You haven't had the pleasure of a BSA software audit called down upon you by a disgruntled (former) employee, have you? It's loads of fun, and at $200K or so per piece of violating software, not something you'd want to risk as a business owner.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    69. Re:None at all by FlyveHest · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote at all, if three pieces of software are installed independently, and they all use the same licensing service on the PC, which again is installed and/or upgraded with each new piece of software, if you uninstall the first, and it then removes the licensing "engine", the two programs installed later will break.

      So, in effect it will have to leave the licensing engine on your system, but, if it WAS the only program installed that used it, you will effectively have a garbage process running, for a program you no longer have installed on your system, and I think we can all agree that this benefits absolutely no one.

    70. Re:None at all by mce · · Score: 1

      No, I did read what you wrote, but I see that I only typed half the reply I initially had in mind. A separate service can be duplicated and shielded juat as was well as anything else. Not exactly superefficient, but it can easily be done. All your first application needs to work is a port number to talk to. Idem for the second. The applications don't care whether those numbers are the same and/or served by a common process.

      Anyway, even if you share the service process between multiple applications, it is trivial to track whether or not an ongoing uninstall is the last one. All it takes on Windows is a single registry key.

    71. Re:None at all by Littleman_TAMU · · Score: 1

      I was with you up until "abolish copyright". Paying people for services, i.e. only when they perform the work doesn't work for most of the industries that use copyright most. I'm as opposed to the Mafiaa as the next guy, but that's the dumbest idea I've heard in awhile. Take an author for example, he could get paid for writing the book only, but who would pay him? A publishing company is only going to publish books it thinks will make them a profit. If they can't protect their books from being copied and published by some cheaper publisher, when they're the ones that paid for the writing of the book, why publish at all? They won't recoup their payment to the author, much less make a profit. They'll either publish cheaper authors/books or none at all. All of which leads to fewer ideas and less creativity. I'm for reducing the length of copyright, its length in the U.S. is ridiculous now, but abolishing it just ignores the good it does simply because the RIAA and MPAA abuse it. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    72. Re:None at all by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      > I personally never found it much of a burden to enter a license key.

      I actually don't mind, as long as the license key can be copied and pasted easily. There is nothing more annoying than a serial not pasting because the text field is the wrong size and the cursor doesn't jump, or it DOES jump but it reads spaces as "valid" characters, argh, that sort of thing.

      I suppose the same effect could be accomplished by more diligent operation of serialz web sitez.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    73. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      One counterpoint. I once worked for a small game developer. Our 3D artists used various pieces of software protected by dongles and other methods of copy protection. We purchased licenses for all users of the software, but making all the copy protection stuff behave was a nightmare. The dongles would interact with each other and programs would "de-register" themselves on a regular basis making it impossible for people to work.

      The solution? We tossed the dongles in a drawer and downloaded cracked versions of the programs. Everything worked fine. The EXTENSIVE copy protection on these programs accomplished NOTHING except making it tough for us to use the software we'd paid for.

    74. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The water is poisoned and the baby is the devil incarnate. Out it goes. All of it. The business model for the author will be different, not necessarily less profitable. Publishing companies are no longer needed, as self distribution is now within anybody's reach. You are making the same argument that was made against the printing press because of its threat to the writers guild, or for that matter the argument against the video recorder. The idea that copyright promotes the flow of creativity is completely off base. It is pure spin. It only promotes speculation and hoarding and enables censorship. It completely perverts the motivations behind any creativity. All work is built on another's. Copyright can only impede that process. It has set us back possibly 50-100 years. It is based on animal territorialism. It is irrational for sentient beings to maintain such a system.

      ...but abolishing it just ignores the good it does simply because the RIAA and MPAA abuse it.

      Without the exclusivity provided by the copyright privileges they enjoy now, they would cease to exist. Their undue influence would evaporate.

      Paying people for services, i.e. only when they perform the work doesn't work for most of the industries that use copyright most.

      That would be correct. And I say let those industries die off. Good riddance to them. Other model will replace them. That would be a good thing.

      Now, having said that, I repeat my willingness to compromise my beliefs with the reinstatement of the original duration of 14-17 year duration of the copyright for the time being as an exploratory measure. And no "grandfathering" older works. Anything else is unacceptable.

      --
      What?
    75. Re:None at all by esarjeant · · Score: 1

      I have to agree -- service is your differentiator. In fact, in a corporate setting I would suggest considering giving away your software and selling maintainence. Customers must buy a minimum annual subscription level (eg: 3 years) at which point they can choose to renew if they have found this product useful.

      Maintainence also has the advantage that you can establish a licensed install base for consumption of your application. There are different costs associated with 10 users, 50 users, 100 users, etc. With a product that requires a server, it's certainly acceptable to track the number of users connecting.

      The key here is to trust your users, and from my experience in a corporate setting the support aspect is far more valuable. Some level of flexibility is needed and since most companies want to be legal then by validating their usage on a yearly basis you can keep them on the right track.

      --

      Eric Sarjeant
      eric[@]sarjeant.com

    76. Re:None at all by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      The time you waste trying to create some copy-protection and losing the arms race with the pirates (which you will lose) is time you could have spent making your product better.

      It's quite possible to prove that copy protection is a net financial win, incidentally. The copy protection vendors know perfectly well that a game or app will be cracked eventually, but especially for games by the time it's done not many people are buying it anyway.

    77. Re:None at all by hackstraw · · Score: 1


      It seems as though by now with multiply billion dollar industries out there that supposedly care about this stuff have come up with a viable solution to software licenses by now (think movies, music, software, and now things like ebooks, etc).

      Personally, I'm in favor of a hardware device (think lika an Atari cartridge), but there may be a better solution. I've talked with multiple software companies and told them that I feel more like a criminal for buying and licensing their software than by "stealing" it. I think I'm done buying any software that makes me go through hoops to either make it work or keep it working. I've got like $1000 worth of software that I would like to transfer to another computer some day, and its like a 50/50 shot that it will work. I would gladly pay a nominal fee to trade in my old cartridge and get an updated one to work with my new computer. I refuse to pay another $1000.

    78. Re:None at all by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 1

      Where I work I was provided a copy of dreamweaver, which costs several hundred dollars. I hated it and offered to trade it for textpad, which cost $17 for a license (that was before I found jEdit, which better than textpad in many ways). What do you think happened to my request for a textpad license? Ironically, it was rejected because textpad is classified as freeware. So, the answer went something like this: you can't pay for it because its freeware, but you can't use freeware because we won't pay for it. Logic loops like this are the very engine of bureaucracy.

      --
      blah blah blah
    79. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, I'll bite.

      I'm a programmer, I make my living writing applications for various companies, and I get paid pretty well to do it because I posses specialized knowledge. I should point out also that at this time I don't work for a "software" company, but I'm writing applications for internal use. Assuming copyright was abolished, this would effectively kill off the entire software industry. Without copyright you would need to recoup the entire cost of an application on its first sale, which in the case of anything major could run into the millions. Effectively this means the only software that would ever be developed would be business applications. Take something like Halo 3, expected by all concerned to be a run away success, and with a huge development budget backing it on the assumption it will easily recoup all the invested money. Without copyright no one would be willing to fund it, because no consumers would be able to afford it. What's that, you want a Halo 3, no problem, just find a way to pay Bungie 10 million dollars, and you'll be the first kid on your block with a copy. Of course, after that you could easily just hand it out to all your friends for free, or you could try to sell it to them for I don't know, maybe 2 million a copy, but odds are they would then either resell it or give it away cheaper than you. It would ultimately turn into a pyramid game, first person to pony up the cash takes the biggest hit, tries to recoup by reselling, but ultimately gets undercut and never recoups the loss. Pretty quickly the ability to sell any given piece of software for more than $0 becomes impossible. Oh yes, this sounds like an excellent system.

      Going to a system without copyright would quickly destroy any motivation to provide works not directly beneficial to major corporations (who could afford their huge development costs), or that aren't simple hobbyist pieces. The only thing of value would be physical goods, returning us to an industrial civilization. Way to bring back sweatshops. As an added bonus, medical research would be pretty useless as well. No point researching a drug to cure cancer, you couldn't sell it for more than 10 cents ultimately, so why bother. You seem to forget that people are greedy, and without motivation they don't work. There must be at least a reasonable hope of profit (either in the traditional sense, or as some sort of personal gratification) before someone is willing to undertake the effort.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    80. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our license server was nodelocked FlexLM on Solaris. Then it went down. Reinstalled the license server software and keys on a backup machine. Set backup machine to spoof the MAC of the original until we got our licenses officially transferred. Worked just fine.

    81. Re:None at all by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I can understand if you're not satisfied with the current system, and I think it leaves much to be desired. However, when advocating replacing the system you need to come up with something better. You're suggesting that it's fine if, say, the movie and music industries crashed and burned because they would have a hard time (if it would even be possible) to create these works in a copyright-less society, and I think that the vast majority of society, including me, disagrees with you on that point.

    82. Re:None at all by mlts · · Score: 1

      When coding a game, developers spend a lot of man hours making the game run reliability. Copy protection does the opposite. It is intended to ruin the reliability of a game. People will pirate a game no matter what methods you use unless you use methods that upset legitimate people so much that its not purchased, or you make the game only for consoles.

      IMHO, the best copy protection is none on the local end. Instead, have a CD key where the game uses that for online content, be it additional maps or levels, a way for players to find other players to play against others online, or just additional content.

      Bioware did this right with Neverwinter Nights 1. They eventually patched out the CD-ROM protection, and piracy did not spike at all after they did this. What keeps people from pirating NWN1 before NWN2 came out was the fact that to access any online content, a unique CD key was needed, and two people couldn't use the same CD key to go online.

      Of course, CD keys are not perfect. They can be stolen (maybe less so if "bound" to a player's account), but if one has to have some form of copy protection, this probably sucks the least.

    83. Re:None at all by torkus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      See, you assume your version of the hypothetical future is the only outcome. Society has proven that if there's a way to make money, someone will. If you can't see any POSSIBLE way for someone to make money...someone you can't see WILL make money.

      How about this scenario. Abolish "copyright law" as it stands. Allow companies to develow a REAL, EFFECTIVE DRM system. To take your laughable Halo 3 ... do honestly thing that *copyright law* will prevent illegal duplication of the game? Erm...i don't think so. I think MS's DRM and ability to prevent updates, online play, etc. via their XBLive service will keep FAR FAR more people away from copied games than copyright law.

      Abolishing copyright laws would kill off many companies. Many others would take their place. How about a company (companies?) to provide real-time DRM, authentication, etc.? This way, if it's yours you're guaranteed to have access to install and use it where ever you go. Internet connectivity is not universally available yet but... i'm also not going to solve copyright/DRM for the world in a /. post.

      Basically copyright has managed to re-direct the task of protecting a companies work from the company itself to the court system. "Well your honor, yes we made a full version available to download but it specifically stated that you had to pay $50 up-front or $50,000 after 60 days. As such, we're requesting $50,000 in damanged plus legal fees plus $billions in penalty.

      Or how about "our laughable drm depended on microsoft's autorun feature in windows so we're going to sue someone for posting in a forum that holding the shift key 'breaks' our DRM. It's breaking encryption/DRM and thus illegal to publish via the DMCA."

      The thought that an idea or information can be illegal is...just beyond stupid if you ask me.

      Copyright is useful to some...in some ways...sometimes. It also has many bad aspects and could be replaced.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    84. Re:None at all by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      W/r/t dongles, I have about $3000 in software (Pro Tools, plugins and support software) on my system right now authorized with iLoks. The iloks store your licenses on the dongle, and you can use ilok.com's web application to back up your licenses and restore them if you dongle ever breaks or is stolen:

      • If it's broken, they front you a new temporary license(s) and you load it onto a spare ilok (blank ones cost like $30) until they receive the broken one from you, when they make your licenses permanent.
      • If it's stolen, you give ilok the serial number of the stolen iLok, and though the stolen one will still work, it'll get lojacked if it ever tries to contact the mothership.

      ilok users can even use the web app to sell licenses to each other, which is quite handy, though ilok charges you $20-$30 for the privilege of transferring from one user to another. When someone buys your software you have your online store call up the ilok web app and have them dispense a license to the buyer, our you can sell your users a SIM-style card that iloks can read and the xfer the licenses off those.

      It's quite a good system, I've looked into it for some projects, but it's really expensive from the developers end, and only starts making sense if you charge $400 or more for your product.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    85. Re:None at all by pclminion · · Score: 1

      The products I work on have a web-based registration method, but that's not the only way they could be licensed. If you want protection from our company going out of business, you are free to purchase a "physical license" which will work in perpetuity. It doesn't cost anything different. It's your choice.

    86. Re:None at all by pclminion · · Score: 1

      I agree, you just have to see the hundreds of computers I have seen in several different government offices that use WinZip, they invariably show the startup nag screen telling you how many thousands of files have you compressed and asking you to buy it... of course, you just have to click the continue button and keep using it..

      Somebody actually wrote a program that would automatically click the Continue button for you. The guys at WinZip got around that by making the Continue button actually CHANGE POSITION on the dialog -- basically, switching places with the Cancel button at random -- so that the clicker program couldn't click it reliably.

      I've always thought that was hilarious.

    87. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      Allow companies to develow (sic.) a REAL, EFFECTIVE DRM system.

      I cannot believe you have the balls to advocate DRM in of all places, slashdot. It has been shown time and time again that DRM can NEVER work, as it's inherently flawed. DRM is the answer to nothing. Copyright law, although being terribly abused at the moment (and the DMCA furthers that abuse), is at least a workable solution. Ultimately it depends on the ethics of the consumers backed by the teeth of the legal system. Abolishing copyright would not only prevent atrocities like the RIAA, but it would also destroy the good of things like the GPL.

      The thought that an idea or information can be illegal is...just beyond stupid if you ask me.

      I agree. It's not the idea of information that's the problem though, it's what people do with it.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    88. Re:None at all by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > I'm a programmer, I make my living writing applications for various companies, and I get paid pretty well to do it because I posses specialized knowledge.

      Same -- knowledge is traded for money.

      > Assuming copyright was abolished, this would effectively kill off the entire software industry.

      Nonsense. Copyright is only a RECENT invention, and other industries where it costs ZERO to copy something, are still around.

      People would still pay (gasp!) for software, because most are under the moral law of supporting the authors. (There are a few above it, and a few who think they are above it, but that has always been the case.)

      The whole concept of "ownership" is based on a system of greed, because people can't treat others how they want to be treated.

      > Going to a system without copyright would quickly destroy any motivation to provide works not directly beneficial to major corporations

      Did you forget the fact that BEFORE copyright, people CREATED because they ENJOYED it? Famous works such as The Bible, we written not because of some corporation, but because people wanted to share a different outlook on how to live.

      I see tons of open source programs created because a developer found it interesting. Heck, myself I work on one, precisely because I find it fun.

      > As an added bonus, medical research would be pretty useless as well. No point researching a drug to cure cancer,

      So now you are going to put a price on SAVING a human life?! Yay for capitalism! Screw the long-term thinking of doing things for the greater good, and focus on the short term solution of making a quick buck.

      > You seem to forget that people are greedy, and without motivation they don't work.

      You seem to forget that money is not the only motivation.

      > There must be at least a reasonable hope of profit (either in the traditional sense, or as some sort of personal gratification) before someone is willing to undertake the effort.

      Tell me, do you have any hobbies? And you do them for profit??

      Someday, the human race will look back at copyright for what it was, a necessary step along the way from when people were focused on controlling their expressions and thinking they determined the "value". I have a dream where someday people will willingly share their creative expressions, and the value of that is not only thought in terms of financial gain, but also by the lasting value it creates in people's lives.

      Laws are created BY people, and by the number of people sharing music, videos, etc, more people are ready to acknowledge copyright is an archaic hold-over from when physical things (let alone information) was a form of power; its time to stop being so greedy and short sighted, and look towards the long term where people enjoy sharing (positive) things with each others, and not just focused on what they can get from others.

      Peace

    89. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Before there was copyright, people were motivated to create something out of need for the creation. So motivation will not go away without copyright. Copyright is a government protected monopoly. It has two specific purposes. One, to protect established industries from competition and new technology(the printing press being the original sinner). It creates a gatekeeper who assures that only approved works are produced and distributed. The lack of diversity in mass media is a good example of how this works. And two, to silence the critics of said industries and their methods of doing business. With everybody saying that "only the government practices censorship", it provides that government deniability. That a creator may benefit in some way is quite secondary and is in no way part of its intent, other than PR value, and to get said creator to go along. Placing an artificial value on property, physical or otherwise, serves only those with enough resources to acquire that property, denying access to all others. Yes, people are greedy. Copyright and all its extensions are a result of that greed. It is a prohibition similar to that against drugs whose only purpose is to increase profit margins for the sole benefit of those who make the law. Without copyright creation will become a community effort, where developmental costs are distributed, the way they are now through purchase, and in which the entire community will benefit. It would cease to be the trickle down business it is today. It is saying, let's grant these giant companies unearned rights so that they might leave a few crumbs for the rest of us. It serves to create a hierarchal order of the creative "high priests" or mystics to rule over the rest. On a side note, the reason your ISP limits uploads is strictly to limit self publishing. Under your belief system about copyright, freeware and OSS cannot exist. So, maybe not everybody is so greedy after all. Copyrights placed on those programs are defensive in that they prevent others from using the law to acquire exclusivity. Though I still believe that placing it in the public domain would serve the same purpose. And that would help put an end to the licensing madness we are all bearing on our shoulders. To mangle a famous quote by a famous person, sharing your knowledge won't make you any dumber.

      --
      What?
    90. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The abuse of copyright is exactly why i think it should be reduced to 14-20 years in length. That length works out pretty good for patents, and even patents have huge flaws and abuse. The longer you enforce an artificial monopoly the more abuse of it, or at least it seems that way.

    91. Re:None at all by jamie(really) · · Score: 1

      Er, so I'm guessing that if you wanted to buy a licensing solution you would look for a supplier who had a first clue about Microsoft MSI files so that the licensing package is reference counted?

    92. Re:None at all by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "It's an equal rights issue to us who actually have to live under those conditions."

      Ah. So someone who works for IBM works for nothing for a year or more, in the hope that their efforts will please their employers enough to pay them for it? They pay for their own health insurance and retirement funds? They have no paid vacations, sick days, and/or personal days? Huh.

      Because a typical author works on a book for a year or more before it can be sold, in the meantime personally paying for EVERYTHING out-of-pocket.

      Sorry, it's not an equal rights issue because the situations themselves aren't equal. And you see them "sitting" on their work, whereas I see the amount of effort and time and money and skill and training that it took to create that work in the first place. On spec. In the HOPE that the market will reward them for their efforts.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    93. Re:None at all by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm in favor of a hardware device (think like an Atari cartridge), but there may be a better solution.

      I've seen quite a few pricey packages use those security dongles, but they're also not 100%. I was tasked to find a replacement key once {they wanted a spare, go figure} and found this company, who maintain they can create a software solution for a hard dongle. I'm not sure if it's 100% legal; has anyone used a firm like this?

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    94. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      I really like how you cherry picked some of my comments while ignoring others entirely, and then took most of that out of context. Yes people do things sometimes because they want to, but even that is a form of profit. They do it because they gain a sense of personal gratification, which I mentioned previously. However, because the production of any given piece of software (this applies to things other than software as well) requires the talent of many different individuals, as the size of the initiative increases the odds of it being seen to completion shrink.

      So now you are going to put a price on SAVING a human life?! Yay for capitalism! Screw the long-term thinking of doing things for the greater good, and focus on the short term solution of making a quick buck.

      Yes, welcome to the real world. Best get started working on that cure for cancer if your so giving. How about aids, made many breakthroughs there have you? What, people are dieing, don't you care, why aren't you studying biology right now? What do you do for a living? Does that help save lives? Do you donate all your money to charity? People will do things to help others out of generosity, because it makes them feel better about themselves, but don't be confused, it's still self serving. The world is not fair, and not everything is rose colored. Resources are limited, and peoples wants are unlimited. If you don't believe that, go try communism for a few decades and see how it turns out.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    95. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the HOPE that the market will reward them for their efforts.

      It's time to find another way besides the prohibition against distribution. And no, you don't have to wait for the work to be completed before you get paid, so the analogy you put forth is incorrect. However applying my analogy to copyright would mean that I should receive a royalty payment for 75 years after I change your oil. I could retire after five years of work. I can dig that.

      --
      What?
    96. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      Before there was copyright, people were motivated to create something out of need for the creation.

      Under your belief system about copyright, freeware and OSS cannot exist.

      I'm not saying motivation will not exist without copyright, but that it will be severely reduced. Programming will cease to exist as a profession and will become a hobby. OSS is great, I have contributed to several OSS projects myself. But that doesn't pay the bills, and I couldn't work as a programmer without copyright (well, I might be able to, but with a severely reduced job pool [only large corporations would be able to pay for programmers to create in house projects] the odds of being able to find employment would be slim). Also, with few professional programmers in existence the quality of software in general would be greatly reduced. Look at for instance all the hobbyist JavaScript sites that exist and the quality of code on those.

      Copyright, as it was originally intended (although it's been severely modified since then) exists as a way to give an individual a temporary monopoly on an intangible work in order for them to be able to earn a monetary profit from it. Without copyright the only profit possible on an intangible work is one of personal gratification, and the quality and quantity of works created would be reflective of that.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    97. Re:None at all by esme · · Score: 1

      The case of mass-market computer games is somewhat hard for a system without copyright. But I'm guessing that most of them could be preserved by giving away the software, and charging for services (such as online multiplayer play). At the extreme of this, software developers could only offer online access to their games (Flash/Java/AJAX/whatever are very capable right now, and will probably become more capable over time). This kind of development is accessible to small developers, since decent webhosting can be had for very little these days.

      Medical research, on the other hand, is completely unrelated to copyright. They use (well, mostly abuse) patents to protect their business model. I haven't heard anyone argue for abolishing patents or trademarks (though they could use some reform).

      -Esme

    98. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      At last, someone making intelligent counterpoints. You are right about the medicines using patent law rather than copyright, although I think going back to the origin of all this the guy pushing for abolishing copyright would be equally against patents. My mistake for not properly thinking through the difference between patent and copyright.

      But I'm guessing that most of them could be preserved by giving away the software, and charging for services (such as online multiplayer play).

      That is an excellent example of one way of handling things, but it doesn't solve the problem of stand alone software. If the only way to make a profit off something was by services, everything would turn into an MMO. Or companies would go to 100% pure hosted applications, with all the nastiness that entails. No way for someone to redistribute your application if they never actually have a local copy of it.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    99. Re:None at all by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      I consider it another aspect of the same phenomenon that it seems impossible to know if a complicated J2EE program will compile and deploy and run, without trial-and-error.

      What's the exact syntax for that annotation? What's the actual JNDI name going to be? I know what this configuration file should contain but WHERE should it go? Will the classloader see this jar in the lib directory of this .ear? No matter how well I think I understand J2EE, I always run into something, and then I try to figure out whether I could have learned it from a book or online. Most recently: I have a MDB that spawns a long-running process in a thread. That process is not allowed to use the EntityManager from the PersistenceContext that's visible to the MDB. The error message that I got was about Transactions. Very frustrating, and I don't find anyplace that could have told me this limitation ahead of time. Okay, maybe I could have read the JBoss source. Sheesh.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    100. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying motivation will not exist without copyright, but that it will be severely reduced.

      It would be different. That does not have to mean reduced.

      Without copyright the only profit possible on an intangible work is one of personal gratification, and the quality and quantity of works created would be reflective of that.

      To me, it would be better. Right now we get pretty shabby and sometimes dangerous products because of copyright. The profit motive does not necessarily provide for high quality. Especially these days where long term thinking is the exception rather than the rule. "Knock it out, take the money and run"

      The hobbyist usually has to reinvent the wheel to get around a copyright, so yes, that would reduce the quality. We are seeing the damage that copyright is doing. OSS is becoming a tangled mess of licenses, such that it's just not worth dealing with from a business standpoint, unless I operate a corporate law firm. And I still insist that you have it backwards in regard to its original intent. It's a redux of Britain's Red Flag law. It's time for something completely different.

      --
      What?
    101. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      However applying my analogy to copyright would mean that I should receive a royalty payment for 75 years after I change your oil.

      You're analogy doesn't work because you actually had to do something in order to change that oil, you performed a service. And presumably you got paid for it as well. A more accurate way of applying your analogy to changing oil would be to say no one is allowed to charge anything for changing oil. Lets see how many JiffyLubes or equivalent are in existence after that law goes into effect. Better be prepared to be doing your own oil changes.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    102. Re:None at all by TClevenger · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Broderbund has done this both with Print Shop and American Greetings CreataCard. My wife has a Creatacard installation CD that is worthless, because they've shut down the activation server, and there's no other way to activate the software. In fact, Broderbund's tech support site says that reinstallation from the disc is not possible.

      Activation sucks--Broderbund ripped off a paying customer.

    103. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in a medium sized IT department for several large hotels. I have a pretty good grasp of what we will use and wont.

      We have one main program that used a key server. We own 300 licenses and use approximately 240 of them (it can go as high as 280 pcs in the summer). It was nothing but trouble. The key server crashed and NO ONE could work. It was a huge lost of revenue for us. We restored a backup, but the way the software worked, it puked on all the old license keys and we had to re-install the program on all 240 pcs. Then about a year later, we had a similar problem again. The key database got corrupted and no one could work again. My company already paid 18k for all the licenses so they did not want to change to another piece of software, plus there really isnt another software that does what we need. Instead, I just patched the software so it didn't actually need the key or the key server. We haven't had a problem since and we still make sure we do have enough licenses for all the clients.

      If someone wants to pirate something bad enough, they are going to find a way to do it no matter what. You wont stop it by loading your program down with multiple copy protections. You will just drive off your client base.

      Most of our pcs do not have internet access so call home programs are definately a No No. Plus, if I saw that something was calling home in our firewall, I would block it and remove the software. We have a lot of confidential information about our guests (name, address, telephone number, credit card info) and want to keep it confidential. If your software calls home, I could never be sure that you are not transmitting info that I do not want you to have.

      Serial numbers aren't bad and are probably the only software that our IT department would go with now after our bad experiences. The more hoops you make me jump through the less likely I will use your software.

    104. Re:None at all by arminw · · Score: 1

      .....They better have an Internetconnection then......

      Requiring and Internet connection in order to use or install software is a singularly bad idea. We bought some software for the controlling of some equipment. The worst thing that can be done to a control computer is for it to even get within shouting distance of an Internet connection.

      If your software will not run or install COMPLETELY stand alone, you better rethink that. It should come on CD/downlaod image, and the Install Code, if any, be printed on the CD or emailed to the customer. If the customer is a business, they will likely order as many copies as they need. Consider a Site licensing scheme. A consumer is less likely to order several copies and may install that one on several computers. Allowing for two, one at home and one for travel may work for you.

      True pirates are the ones that try to make money with what you create. If enough money is to be made, ALL your gyrations to protect your software by technical means are mostly futile against those kinds of crooks. (Microsoft are you listening?) All these technical shenanigans only are a burden on the paying customers. The only way to fight that kind of wholesale crookedness is to have a good legal department. Even then, it may not be worth it.

      --
      All theory is gray
    105. Re:None at all by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      This is what happens when you only have 16 error codes that read like "network failure" or "database failure".

      You had 16 error codes available? Pah.

      I once wrote an entire database system using only zeroes.

    106. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      You're analogy doesn't work because you actually had to do something in order to change that oil...

      ??? So, creating a work is doing nothing? okay...

      ...you performed a service.

      And due to copyright, the performing arts has become just that. A service

      Better be prepared to be doing your own oil changes.

      Always did :-) And with the application of IP law, I could prohibit anyone from changing their own oil. Break the seal on the plug, go to jail.

      --
      What?
    107. Re:None at all by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe he doesn't, but I do. And I completely agree with him. Installing a background task just to deal with license keys is bad juju.

      I also agree -- Working for a hardware company that also sells support software, we've found a very elegant solution that has worked quite well while not being too cumbersome:
      1. Tie the version of the software you're using to the hardware they have -- basically, sell more than one part of the solution, and make them depend on each other.
      2. Provide a "serial number activation" field during install. Any number entered will work as long as it fits the right hash and is the right length. The number is encoded in such a way that it contains the product version, date of sale, and some piece of information about the customer (eg. last 4 digits of contact phone number). This information shows up in the about box of the installed software.
      3. Whenever anyone calls in for support, we ask for the serial number. If the phone number doesn't match, we ask for further verification that the person is a legitimate customer.

      So far, the "enter a serial number" step seems to be enough to keep piracy down, when combined with the hardware+service model. If we ever went out of business, the software would continue working. No serial number (old Apple style) tends to not stop the average person from pirating, but making licensing more than a simple step will cause at least one person to decide it is easier to crack the software than to jump through all the hoops -- at which point you lose control.

      Think of it as "newspaper box" level security. Sure... someone could put in their money and take ALL the papers, but they have little incentive to do so. Make it difficult to get that first paper (sign up and provide SSN, credit card, etc.) and someone will break into the box and take the whole stack. This seems to be the human condition.
    108. Re:None at all by walt-sjc · · Score: 1

      That would be a good thing, and is not in contrast to my comment / point in any way. Unfortunately, that is the exception rather than the norm for a lot of software.

    109. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      ??? So, creating a work is doing nothing? okay...

      It's an apples and oranges thing. Performing a physical service entails an expenditure of effort on your part, and is a one time thing. Just because you changed the oil in one car, doesn't mean suddenly every other car gets its oil changed. Creating a work such as a program or book is also an expenditure of effort, but is not a one time thing. Once the effort of creating it has been done, it's effectively free to everybody else baring some kind of legal provision against it's free distribution. The whole idea of copyright is to try to put creative endeavors on par with physical ones so that both can be equally profitable, and thus both make economic sense to pursue.

      And with the application of IP law, I could prohibit anyone from changing their own oil. Break the seal on the plug, go to jail.

      IP law, which at this point is mostly just the DMCA, is wrong, and I'm in no way advocating it.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    110. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      Note to self, preview more. Maybe the next change they could make to slashdot would flag unmatched tags and reject the post? That seems like something useful to do.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    111. Re:None at all by tharger · · Score: 1

      In the work place, most people might enter a fake installation code for example, but won't go as far as to apply a crack. If the software requires you to apply a crack to use it, then I think most people at work will get their company to buy it.

      I agree. To take things one step further, use a hardware key. They plug into a USB or parallel port and don't get in the way. The software has to check for the key from time to time so a user can't keep passing it around to launch the app on multiple computers. If you don't find it, warn the user to put it back or you'll shut down. If they start the app without it then it should run as a timed demo.

    112. Re:None at all by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

      That's a commonplace practice which is mainly aimed at making people inadvertently click the button which takes them to the registration website, and also makes it more annoying to click through the dialog.

    113. Re:None at all by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      Another thing to consider is how copy protection affects the behavior of a program. More sophisticated schemes will do stuff that is bad for business environments and bad for customers who actually manage their security well.

      So, you really have to choose. If you want to sell your software to businesses and professionals, you really can't do several things; scan the hardware for something unique, write to "hidden" areas of the system, write to anywhere a normal user can't write, initiate random and/or non-standard communication streams. This means that at most you can do an install key, and maybe you can get away with online activation or online key validation. Anything else makes your software harder to manage and forces admins to reduce the security on their system just so your software can run.

      If you want to sell to consumers, then all of the evil and sloppy techniques are on the table; tying an installation to a hardware signature, periodic re-validation, maybe even special services or hardware. The movement of a lot of users to Vista over the next few years is going to make that change a bit, however. The most egregious violations are going to cause support issues for even home users.

      Probably the simplest method is to compile each distribution specifically for each customer. When you find it on the Internet, you'll know who put it there. Make it very clear to users at purchase or install time that their copy is unique and traceable and then the users will become part of your police force.

    114. Re:None at all by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 1

      I'm a programmer, I make my living writing applications for various companies, and I get paid pretty well to do it because I posses specialized knowledge. I should point out also that at this time I don't work for a "software" company, but I'm writing applications for internal use. Assuming copyright was abolished, this would effectively kill off the entire software industry.
      As I interpret the above, you are using your position as a member of the software industry to support your claim about copyright, essentially saying, "I write software, so you should believe me when I say that abolishing copyright would kill off the entire software industry." This is a logical fallacy, namely an appeal to authority: the fact that you are a programmer is irrelevant to this argument.

      You may be right that abolishing copyright would eliminate much of the existing software industry, but it's entirely possible that other business models would grow to fill these new "gaps." Models like software-as-service and OSS+support already exist, so they are clearly viable; and in cases where those models do not suffice, there would be great incentives for people to come up with new, functional business models. In any case, given how much open source software already exists despite the existence of copyright, your claim about returning to an "industrial civilization" is pretty ludicrous.

      As for games specifically, it's quite possible that the market would shrink significantly. Indeed, it seems unlikely that a game the scale of Halo 3 could exist under a no-copyright system. Is that so bad? Clearly there would still be games, and in any case I don't see why "there would be fewer games" is a compelling argument for a system as broken and invasive as copyright.
    115. Re:None at all by DarkMantle · · Score: 1

      You mis-read. It is only one number you enter. It generated the rest automatically. It's not different then entering 111-1111111 in an Office 97 install window. It was all transparent to the user.

      As for the comment about "if you go out of business or change the model." It's a valid point I won't contest. In the environment I was working in with a Yearly update schedule (do to the nature of the industry we were targeting) It was not a big deal because most of our customers (about 90%) were paying the yearly fees for updating regularly.

      I'll use the example of Tax software for annual income tax. This year I buy QuickTax, next year I buy it again and I get a discount because I used it last year and registered. So Later when our business model did change (yearly fee required, software was on an Application Service Provider (ASP) server (like citrix or Terminal services) they always had the latest version, and rolling out updates was easier. When this happened it was simply keeping their login active by them paying. If they decided not to renew, the login only had read only access to the data for old records.

      Not all solutions work for everyone. That shop last I heard has dropped the ASP model and went back to a key based system. Using the transparent one we used before. Again, too many rapid "activations" will kill the key. But no lifetime limit (like BioShock,) at user level, they don't see the activation at all. Put in the key, like you do your shareware and wait a few seconds while it politely says "validating your key" then continues installing.

      --
      DarkMantle I been bored, so I started a blog.
    116. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > People would still pay (gasp!) for software, because most
      > are under the moral law of supporting the authors. (There are
      > a few above it, and a few who think they are above it, but
      > that has always been the case.)

      I disagree. Not to be overly pessimistic about humanity, but I don't think 'most' or anything close to it applies to people who would pay for software if they didn't have to. My experience (I have released both shareware and donation-ware software titles before) suggests that I'm right. I did get some donations for the free software, but nothing close to the revenue the other title produced. Just my 2 cents.

    117. Re:None at all by ultramkancool · · Score: 0

      Having some cracking relations myself, I know that there is no 100% effective way to stop someone from cracking your application, and, if it's good enough, it will get cracked quickly. Crackers can make an easier to use version of the program (think of all the re-pack releases that don't require you to apply cracks, use keygens, etc) and it will not require the user to even perform some annoying task, such as enter a 200 digit serial number or to activate the product online. The best way to prevent cracking is to make your program suck.

    118. Re:None at all by ozphx · · Score: 1

      You should have some form of copyright protection and it shouldn't be intrusive. I was trying an orm/data layer product the other day (diamond binding) and I was impressed by how the licensing didnt piss me off. Got a license file which looks like some signed xml, and the installer. Installed the product. Everything worked. Forgot about the license file which was still sitting in my email until like a week later.

      Then I go to build in release and I get "Not licensed - go to dunnchurchill.com etc"

      The only thing that it was doing was putting #warning pragmas into the code that I was using unlicensed software, and #error in release mode. So I found the license file used the thingo in the about box and I guess it jammed the details in the registry somewhere. Everything was working again.

      The other thing is that i'm using the free non-commercial version (you have to register for the license file) - and its completely identical to the paid version - so they trust me not to abuse the terms. Also what surprised me was that the runtime didnt need any licensing - which for anyone familair with third party .net stuff you generally end up fucking around with licensing issues when you deploy.

      I think thats basically a good way of doing things - its acceptable i think to remind the user that they havent got a license. Don't restrict how they use the product though , just rely on the agreement you have with them. I'm guessing everything is covered by the EULA I probably agreed to (non-commercial use etc), but the important thing is that it hasnt pissed me off yet.

      Wish bloody MS would do it like that. :/

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    119. Re:None at all by ozphx · · Score: 1

      > People would still pay (gasp!) for software, because most are under the moral law of supporting the authors.

      They would! They would be paying a reasonable sum for OZPhx Windows Vista, and probably getting a bundle deal with OZPhx Word, from my totally legitmate online store. They would feel happy that their money was going to the author. Everyone would be happy, except that bgates@hotmail.com guy who wouldn't stop sending me links to goatse in my email.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    120. Re:None at all by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Anything that has to phone home is unacceptable. 1) There are several reasons a company would install software on a computer not connected to the Internet. 2) The software company's licensing servers won't be available always and forever. 3) It's an extra step that doesn't need to be there.

    121. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Well see? Don't complain about DMCA. It goes with the territory. That's part of my point. You want copyright? Well then, You gotta carry the baggage that comes along with it. All this nonsense with that and all the extensions, etc, etc, etc, is part of the show. It's a matched set, baby. It's evolution at work. It can't go any other way. That's what nature is alllll about. Follow through on the thought, and maybe you might understand where I'm coming from. Sorry...

      Don't worry about the preview crap. The buttons are too close together anyway. But if they were any farther apart, I would be complaining about having to move the stupid mouse so far across the screen. Damn! "Tab" key maybe?

      --
      What?
    122. Re:None at all by Hooya · · Score: 1

      > Assuming copyright was abolished, this would effectively kill off the entire software industry

      I often wonder about this. If we were to put aside the differences in 'Patents' and 'Copyrights' for the sake of the argument and just consider both as a means to 'protect the inventor' in one fashion or another. Then consider the fact that the single greatest invention of humankind, ever -- the wheel -- came about without patent protection...

    123. Re:None at all by vuffi_raa · · Score: 1

      nothing irritates me more than "internet copy protection" for 2 reasons:
      1. working on a laptop is a pain since I don't usually leave it online and
      2. In my work we work with our client data on a network that is offline due to client security measures in order to protect confidential material.
      I spend more time at work and have more slowdowns due to stupid copy protection that requires internet access on machines that have the installations where I either need vendors to create an entire new build of the executables or have long assed registrations that have to be entered periodically to keep the software alive- half the time it makes us drop licenses and develop internally or just crack the protection ourselves to be able to even use the software.

    124. Re:None at all by pppppppman · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you don't have that much money.

    125. Re:None at all by mpe · · Score: 1

      It doesn't just hurt your customers, it hurts you too. The time you waste trying to create some copy-protection and losing the arms race with the pirates (which you will lose) is time you could have spent making your product bet.

      There is also going to be a cost to both you and your customers troubleshooting situations where the "copy protection" causes problems.

      The way to beat the pirates is to provide a better service to your customers than they do.

      A concept that the entertainments industry dosn't appear to yet understand...

      Businesses, by the way, tend not to pirate on the scale of the private user. Piracy is a big risk to business because businesses have very deep pockets.

      If the program contains troublesome copy protection it isn't unknown for a business to buy but actually install a cracked version.

    126. Re:None at all by mpe · · Score: 1

      Assuming copyright was abolished, this would effectively kill off the entire software industry.

      Until about the mid 1980's it was unclear if copyright applied to software at all. With the exceptions that printed source code could be considered a "literary work" and data stored on compact cassette tape could be considered "music". Yet there already existed a sizable "software industry".

      Without copyright you would need to recoup the entire cost of an application on its first sale, which in the case of anything major could run into the millions.

      This wouldn't affect the "entire software industry". Whilst it might be bad for the secondary section, it wouldn't really make much difference to the tertiary section. If the task is "set up a system for me to do X" the major cost is someone's time and you simply can't assume there will ever be more than one "customer".

    127. Re:None at all by mpe · · Score: 1

      Copyright is only a RECENT invention,

      Copyright applied to software is an even more recent invention than copyright in general

      and other industries where it costs ZERO to copy something, are still around.

      Do you have some examples...

      People would still pay (gasp!) for software, because most are under the moral law of supporting the authors.

      You also have what is known as "tertiary industry", here you are paying for someone's time, which is a scarce resource. Especially when you need people with a specific skillset.

      Did you forget the fact that BEFORE copyright, people CREATED because they ENJOYED it? Famous works such as The Bible, we written not because of some corporation, but because people wanted to share a different outlook on how to live.

      People still do JK Rowling didn't create Harry Potter so she could become rich, famous and her grandchildren would never have to do a day's work in their lives...

      I see tons of open source programs created because a developer found it interesting. Heck, myself I work on one, precisely because I find it fun.

      Being creative is part of human nature, which is just as well, because otherwise we'd all still be "cavemen".

    128. Re:None at all by mpe · · Score: 1

      The abuse of copyright is exactly why i think it should be reduced to 14-20 years in length.

      Depending on what the rational is for having copyright this period might be excessive for the 21st century.

    129. Re:None at all by uncledrax · · Score: 1

      Incidently, I have a FlexLM protected software that tied itself ot my Cisco VPN Client Adapter...

      I only found out after I disabled the adapter for some reason or another, and my software stopped working..

      Ergo.. if you -really- wanted ot make a FlexLM app portable, you could install a virtual adapter, ensure it's #1, then install your app.. then just create the adapter with the same MAC on any/all machines you want to have your license 'ported' to.

      Not that I would condone such actions..

      --
      ----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
    130. Re:None at all by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      How much is "enough"?

    131. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a software company I would not buy from, and would tell people in explicit terms to avoid and find another vendor. Stop regarding the people who pay YOUR bills as criminals. They are customers; treat them as such. Stop treating them like garbage too stupid or too amoral to understand what a software license or basic laws are.

      Want an example of a utility done right? Look at WinRAR. Its all over the place. Its licensing is simple and secure, but it doesn't kill the computer its installed on if the 40 day demo runs 41 days. Yes, there are cracks and patches for it, but pretty much most people end up paying the relatively small cost to register it sooner or later.

      Heck, even Stuffit Classic for the Mac over 10 years ago did it right, with a single nag screen showing how many days the product was unregistered.

      The pirates are not going to pay for it, and no matter how much time you put into your copy-protection, someone will crack it. If your program causes data loss either by accident or design, even more customers will be ran off or be turned into people castigating your product from blogs, web pages, and news sites.

      All the enhanced software DRM measures do is run off legit customers, so you lose more money in the end.

    132. Re:None at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to see a concept like that, but more like a SIM card that goes on a motherboard on a machine, but is removable, so software that is licensed to that SIM card can be moved to a new machine when upgrade time comes around.

      For example:

      I buy a copy of Windows. It activates by having the MS activation server copy a certificate onto the SIM card. Then, when I need to reinstall, since the certificate is present on the SIM, it doesn't have to reactivate. This also removes the need for WGA checks. If someone cloned the SIM card or is abusing the license, its easy to find it and push out a revocation cert via OCSP.

    133. Re:None at all by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "The way to beat the pirates is to provide a better service to your customers than they do. The commonly advocated business model is to provide support on the software to paying users - and since your target is business customers this makes a lot of sense."
      Just a quick question? Have you ever written a program and sold it for a living?

      Your idea which I have heard many times before just doesn't work. It is at best a myth.
      If you write your software well and create a good enough on line help system you will decrease the need for support. So your model actually increases the profits from a program if it is hard to use, has poor user documentation, and is full of bugs..

      If a program is intuitive and well written then why do they need tech support?

      The simple truth is if the program is cheap enough you then you probable just want to put some kind of minimal copy protection like on line registration. Just to keep honest people honest.
      If the software costs enough you may want to look into one of the hardware dongles. If you do then you are going to have to have some kind of replacement policy for when it fails and some of them will fail and some kind of bypass code to let them run for a limited time without a dongle.

      None of this will stop sophisticated pirates. But sophisticated pirates would probably never buy your software to start with.

      I tend to think that just living with fact that some people are just dishonest is usually the best course. Charge a fair amount for your work and live with the fact that some people will not respect your right to control how your code is distributed and used.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    134. Re:None at all by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "And no, you don't have to wait for the work to be completed before you get paid..."

      Tried getting a book advance recently? And even if you do it's an ADVANCE (hence the name) against future sales. You get no more money until your payment has been recouped.

      "I should receive a royalty payment for 75 years after I change your oil."

      Convince me you should. Other than the fact that there are millions of mechanics out there doing exactly the same identical, relatively unskilled work, and that the "service" you performed took five minutes, and if you're working in a garage or shop you're already getting paid by the hour, and the customer is paying immediately for value rendered.

      Other than that the situations are nearly identical...

      "It's time to find another way besides the prohibition against distribution."

      Why? The current system enables millions of creative people to create a ton of work on spec that I can examine after the fact, decide if I like it and if it has value to me, and if so pay a miniscule fraction of the development costs. No other system I've seen proposed (contracts) accomplishes the same thing, and covers the range in scale between books, music, and movies.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    135. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Other than the fact that there are millions of mechanics out there doing exactly the same identical, relatively unskilled work, and that the "service" you performed took five minutes...

      Ahhh, the arrogance of the "artiest", alive and well it is. Yes, the little minions who clean your toilet don't deserve such special privileges reserved only for those of creative genius. You shall walk on rose petals.

      The current system enables millions of creative people to create a ton of work...

      And denies millions of more that are just as worthy. Your belief that copyright exists for the benefit of "creative people" is flawed. It exists now and has always existed to protect the old from the new. Now it needs a stake through the heart. The free ride is over. The overwhelming greed has exposed its true intent for what it is. It is a gate, a toll-road between the creator and the public, paid for by both to a middleman who now benefits neither. It is the railway monopoly between the farmer and the market. It is the oil cartels between the crude and your gas tank. Their common link is the heavy government protections and subsidies. Privileges designed to create and control a business.

      If you want to write books, put out samples and see if people will pay you to write more. You will get paid for writing, not distribution fees. If you want somebody else to manage it, that will be between you and him/her. For a steady stream of writing, you will receive a stream of income. Just like us dumb, unskilled mek-uh-nics. And furthermore, any Jiffylube that can get you in and out in five minutes would definitely be worth your continued patronage and a nice bottle of brandy every Christmas... at least.

      --
      What?
    136. Re:None at all by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

      I've came back to this story and noticed your comment as it is the most recent. Maybe it will help if I try to put together some thoughts about what you have written. Unfortunately, I have to begin by mentioning that I find the parody lyrics which you linked absurd (in a bad sense) and (mildly) appalling.

      Now to the oil changing metaphor: the previous poster seems to me to be wrong about the metaphor's meaning. The point is that if the act of changing oil can be instantly replicated in unlimited number of instances, there might possibly be some negative consequences (it's difficult to develop this idea futher, isn't it?)

      I'm also not sure if we wouldn't be able to find quite a number of reasons why, actually, the anti-intellectual property propaganda is the attempt to protect the old from the new. For example, if a person can't afford writing a book, only old books are available.

    137. Re:None at all by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "And denies millions of more that are just as worthy..."

      Interesting choice of words there. Worthy. As in "deserving effort, attention, or respect". They DESERVE it. Not a far leap to they're ENTITLED to it, is there?

      I'll let you in on a little secret. They're not. I worked one summer as an intern for a publishing house, reading the "slush" pile of unsolicited manuscripts. And there are most certainly not millions more who're just as worthy. The majority of submitters, for whatever reason, couldn't even put a coherent paragraph together, much less an entire book. You see, in any field you care to name the number of truly creative people number a few handfuls at most.

      And as such you have it exactly backwards. Copyright doesn't exist for the benefit of the creative people, it exists for the rest of us. Because we, as a society, are the ones that benefit when our most creative one tenth of one percent are working on new works for us to read, to hear, to watch, to ponder, to wonder, to discuss, and to enjoy. Because true creativity is a rare gift, and because finding it combined with knowledge and skill and dedication is even rarer. Because we want those people writing and singing and directing for us, and not spending their time begging for money or working at Wal-Mart.

      The founding fathers understood this, even if you do not.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    138. Re:None at all by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "Just like us dumb, unskilled mek-uh-nics."

      Actually, you're probably not dumb, nor unskilled (nor a mechanic). But again, changing oil is a task that millions of people can perform, and even more can do so with no training whatsoever. Heck, even I can do it. But I pay for the service because I have better things to do with my time. I don't pay a lot, because there's lots of competition, and there's a limit to how much that service is worth to me. Supply and demand.

      Now, does my mechanic deserve my respect? Sure, to a certain extent. But do I have even more respect for my doctor, who's undergone nearly a decade of advanced study and training and sweated bullets to get his degree? You better believe it.

      Respect is not just deserved. It is earned.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    139. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Answering both posts:

      It sure is funny to hear pro-copyrighters talking about entitlements, because that's exactly what they demand through copyright law. Special privileges because they feel their work is special. Above all others. Creativity is not a rare gift. It is a learned trade. It's no different than anything else. When I regularly engage in creative activities, I become more creative. So screw all that. You deserve nothing that anybody else can't have. And I tend to appeal to the one founding father who briefly made arguments against such entitlements, Thomas Jefferson. His was most logical. Like you said, "Respect is not just deserved. It is earned." Well, hear hear! I couldn't agree more. That little jewel applies equally to the creative trades as it does to any other trade. And the exact same rules should apply. I can learn to write music, too, but I have better things to do with my time, so I'll happily pay someone to perform music for me. I will pay for the service of the performance. But I won't be told what I can do with my recordings of his performance any more that I would expect to get paid for distribution of a movie of me changing somebody's oil. Copyright is not made any more valid simply because the market will bear it. It only means that people believe what they are told whether it's true or not. They believe it because it comes from an authority, not because it's a fact based on any truth.

      Because we want those people writing and singing and directing for us, and not spending their time begging for money or working at Wal-Mart.

      Then, by all means, pay them for it. I never said you shouldn't. Everybody is entitled to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

      I don't pay a lot, because there's lots of competition, and there's a limit to how much that service is worth to me. Supply and demand.

      Same would go for the creative arts if not for the artificial shortages created by copyright and all other IP law. I can reduce the competition amongst mechanics, too, by creating or demanding all sorts of restrictive rules as to who can practice the art

      But do I have even more respect for my doctor, who's undergone nearly a decade of advanced study and training and sweated bullets to get his degree? You better believe it.

      Well, I for one, have more respect for a good mechanic than a bad doctor. How he got his license means nothing to me. It's about the quality of his performance and the love he has for his work, which usually go hand in hand.

      Actually, you're probably not dumb, nor unskilled (nor a mechanic).

      :-) Uh, Okay...

      --
      What?
    140. Re:None at all by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "Special privileges because they feel their work is special."

      As I've repeatedly attempted to point out, it's different because the circumstances are different. Most of the people out there have jobs, go to work, get paid by the hour or have a salary, have benefits and get paid vacations. In other words, barring the failure of the business their level of risk is low. They go to work. They get paid. EOS.

      They're not self-employed. They're not paying their own benefits. They're not spending a year or more producing work, often entirely on spec, in the hope that others will like it and pay them for it. Higher risks, higher "potential" rewards. No guarantees.

      And I also suspect that we have differing definitions of what it means to be creative. If it were something that could be easily and simply learned I suspect that we've have millions of best-selling novels and platinum albums and award-winning movies and shows.

      We don't.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    141. Re:None at all by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of self employed people who take similar, and even greater risks who don't enjoy these privileges. So your points still don't hold up. Higher rewards should come from higher success, not a government "guarantee". You're not entitled to any more guarantees than I have through medicare, social security, or the welfare office. The circumstances are NOT different, and shouldn't be treated as such.

      If it were something that could be easily and simply learned I suspect that we've have millions of best-selling novels and platinum albums and award-winning movies and shows.

      We sure would have a lot more if the gatekeepers weren't locking people out by controlling self publishing and distribution. That would put the decision into the hands of the public, where it belongs, instaed of the media cartels, who are the only true beneficiaries of the present system.

      --
      What?
    142. Re:None at all by 0p7imu5_P2im3 · · Score: 1

      There's this book. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's the best selling book of all time and has never been copyrighted. It talks about not being a member of this "real world" of which you speak. Perhaps you should read it sometime. It may give you a better outlook on life, and a better understanding of humanity. It may even help you develop an attitude that attaches some value to life, other than that of just continuing to live or living better than someone else.

      Again, you should read it sometime. It's usually listed under the title "The Bible" though you may be able to find it with the "The" attached. It's usually in the religious section of most libraries and book stores. Is that surprising? Depends on your point of view, which is, ironically, something else that may be changed by reading it.

      --
      Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
    143. Re:None at all by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      Read it, and wasn't impressed. No self consistency, and it totally ignores several well founded principles of physics. Also I understand it's been heavily edited over the years, and there are several contradictory versions floating around. Sounds like it needs more peer review to me.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    144. Re:None at all by JoelKatz · · Score: 1

      "So, in short you recommend using a piece of software, that installs another piece of software, that stays on the system after uninstalling the first piece of software (How else could it work, if you have multiple pieces of software that uses it?), and, as you say service, I assume it runs while the original piece of software is not."

      There's this really sophisticated technology. It's so sophisticated, all I can tell you is it's code name, "reference counting". As I understand it, and I don't have codeword clearance so this may not be quite right:

      1) Each program checks to see if the module is already installed. If not, it installs it and sets the reference count to 1. (The reference count is usually stored in the registry on a Windows machine.)

      2) If the module is already installed, it checks if this installer has an upgraded version, if so, it upgrades it. Either way, it bumps the reference count by one.

      3) When a program is uninstalled, it decrements the reference count.

      4) If the reference count hits zero, the module is uninstalled as well.

      Now, this is all secret stuff and I have no way to verify it. But my aunt's cousin was once uninstalling some software, and it said something about whether she wanted to remove files that were no longer in use or leave them there in case something else might use them later.

      I think this is evidence that this is not just a rumor or myth, but that they really are@#07a239-29u
      CARRIER LOST
      > OK

    145. Re:None at all by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Someday, the human race will look back at copyright for what it was, a necessary step along the way from when people were focused on controlling their expressions and thinking they determined the "value". I have a dream where someday people will willingly share their creative expressions, and the value of that is not only thought in terms of financial gain, but also by the lasting value it creates in people's lives.

      Why, Mr. Jefferson ... fancy meeting you here. I guess the reports of your demise were exaggerated.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    146. Re:None at all by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      your method relies on having confidence in your ability to lie convincingly, not everyone has that ability.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    147. Re:None at all by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

      Actually, many people compose and perform music in their spare time for no profit at all... I don't expect you to expect the people who designed the formula of the motor oil to personally make the oil specifically for you, because such oil would be bad and expensive...

    148. Re:None at all by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

      However, what about using the received talents wisely, about justice, and encouragement of good? It seems the book doesn't help, say, so easily.

    149. Re:None at all by 0p7imu5_P2im3 · · Score: 1

      Everybody's a critic! ;)

      But seriously, have you read the same book? I've read it a couple of times and I haven't seen these self-inconsistencies or any ignorance of physics. The manipulation of one's surroundings which can be performed in conjunction with a firm knowledge of science will seem like magic, or ignorance of "several well founded principles of physics," to an underdeveloped society.

      As to it being "edited over the years," this is unfortunately true. The most complete records of the Bible were stored by scholars who removed the punctuation and spacing in order to save space and parchment. So we have the original letters and we have plenty of documents in the original language to which to compare the original letters in order to space out the words. There's no real hope for the punctuation except for translations which did survive all this time. Because of this, today's English translations of the Bible are as close to correct as any translation before them, except maybe the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) or maybe the Latin Vulgate (Latin translation).

      --
      Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
  2. What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Thondermonst · · Score: 1, Insightful

    None.

    1. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by pilaftank · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the question is how much should I beat the customer over the head, the answer is none. However, the question is wrong. The really question is how can my licensing mechanism best help legitimate customers track their licenses and stay compliant within the licensing agreement. The customers you want have no desire to steal your software, but they'll get annoyed if you make it laborious to maintain license compliance. Forget about the people who want to pirate your software. You add no value to your product when you waste time on them.

      --
      dna.js
    2. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      wow, what awesome insight. you sound like you are answering the question "what is the right price for my software?" to which the slashdot crowd will answer "Free!".
      You will not get a sensible answer here on slashdot, as this post above me clearly illustrates. there are far too many people in the "stick it to the man!, lets torrent everything!, all software should be free!, information wants to be free! MAFIAAAAA! is dinner ready yet mom?" crowd on here.

      Yes, copy protection will annoy a small fraction of legit customers.
      Tough.
      That's the price of doing business. Do security guards irritate people in shops? does having to get a security tag taken off clothes at the till slow down the sale and irritate the end user? We get sued to a small amount of hassle in return for businesses preventing casual theft in the real world, the software world should be no different. I'd like to see most of the anti-DRM people on here try to extend your theories to the meatspace world. Try leaving the right money on the counter and walking out of a store next time you go shopping, after all, that guy at the till is just an irritating bit of theft prevention in this case isn't he?

      As for this lunacy that you should make it free and charge for support, that gives you zero incentive to ship a bug-free product, and makes you a wage slave again rather than a creator of new products.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    3. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Rik+Sweeney · · Score: 3, Funny

      None.

      Wrong, everyone has the right to protect something that they've worked hard on. What if the product you made was your only source of income and no-one bought it but everyone had a copy of it? You'd do whatever you could to protect your livelihood.

      Get out of your fucking tree, cut your hair and get a job.

    4. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Technician · · Score: 1

      None.

      Close answer. It should be the same as a newspaper or magazine. It should be cheaper to simply buy your own copy than the time and effort requried to rip, crack and burn a duplicate. You can do a copyright violation on an entire newspaper. What's stopping you? Other items with artificial high prices and low manufacturing (duplication) costs are the most pirated items. Low cost items are rarely duplicated.

      You could ask you neighbor to videotape the season of (name your show) so you don't have to pay for a premium channel, but the labor and delay is enough of a burden that it is simply easier to add the channel to your package.

      Over done copy protection on the other hand burdens not the pirate, but the customer. Do you or your kids have an MP3 player. Ever try to rip a DRM'ed CD or DL purchased track to the wrong player? iTunes to an RCA Lyra or a protected WMA to an iPod? DRM kills sales. High prices encourage piracy. See where I am going...

      Drop the artificial high prices and DRM and sales goes up while piracy goes down. Inexpensive DVD's are priced at the sweet spot. The drive to either DL or copy a rental is diminished by the fact I can simply pick up many of them at 4 for $20 at Blockbuster.

      CD sales on the other hand are suffering artificial scarcity, excessive DRM, high prices, and massive piracy due to the above. Finding a few pirates to make examples of hasn't slowed down piracy much. The record companies need to find a new business model to face the cost to fill a 40 Gig iPod. Demand is there for bulk content. They dribble it out like it was high priced Champagne. It is easly duplicated at prices less than cheap beer. Do the math. The incentive to beat the high price is extreme.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    5. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many people only take the cost of creating and distributing the media into account when discussing artificial high prices, but fail to consider the amount of labor and risk that go into the true product conveyed through that media. As someone who participates daily in the creation of custom software, I can tell you that it is extremely expensive by the time you factor in the cost of a development team, project management resources, business subject matter experts, quality assurance testers, etc, etc. Additionally, this expense is taken at a great risk because a large portion of software projects never make RTM and are simply abandoned as sunk cost (hopefully to be offset by gains made on anything that actually does make it to market). It's wonderful that people exercise their freedom to make their software free (both as in beer and as in freedom), but it's also great that people who choose to take the risk in producing commercial products have the freedom to be rewarded for their effort as the market sees fit.

    6. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We get sued to a small amount of hassle in return for businesses preventing casual theft in the real world, the software world should be no different."

      Damn right! Those pesky users should pay the price for messing with u... Err, wait a second...

    7. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by mh1997 · · Score: 1

      None.
      If you choose none, then you will have to estimate total lifetime users, a "fair" cost to use the software. Then factor in a percentage for pirated copies/users and charge your legitimate customers the "fair" price plus the lost income for pirated copies.

      If your software becomes popular and becomes the default software package, like MS Office, you will then have the pleasure of reading slashdot comments about why your software is so expensive and that the only recourse they have is to pirate the software. You will implement some kind of copy protection to keep profits up and software at a certain price, and then they will complain there is copy protection and now the only recourse they have is to pirate the software so they don't have to put up with the unfair/intrusive copy protection. Then....

    8. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd do whatever you could to protect your livelihood.

      Please do. But don't consider it your god given right to earn a living however you see fit. The market will decide whether your software is worth purchasing, and when put up against viable free alternatives, you're going to have a hard time of it. Considering that the quantity and quality of freely licensed software continues to increase, shrink-wrap license vendors are going to have an increasingly hard time of it.

      You could copyright and license your handwriting skills also, and sell your ability to write to the illiterate. As free software licenses continue to increase the reserve of literate programmers, you'll eventually have as much luck trying to sell software licenses as a scribe trying to sell his ability to write.

      Shave your back and step into the 21st century.

    9. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see this differently. Free software continues to drive down usability and reliability expectations.
       
      Because of this, shrinkwrap vendors are still able to position themselves as the "premium" polished product - and users continue to accept a small amount of hassle to prevent piracy of that product.

      Linux: Free if your time is worthless.

    10. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by schon · · Score: 1

      Wrong Mu.

      everyone has the right to protect something that they've worked hard on. And for software, you *have* it.

      It's called copyright - and I'm sure your particular jurisdiction has some laws regarding it.
    11. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Floritard · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yea those darn security guards. Wouldn't be so bad if they just stayed in the shops, but they insist on moving in with us and making sure we use the product appropriately and let no one else use it who didn't pay for it. My kids really hate them. They like to "crack" jokes at the guards and have silly nicknames for them like "dongle." I know, my kids are weird. Those security tags are a pain too, I wish they'd just take them off at the store and not leave them on my clothing to get snagged on every thing I walk by. They itch too. Price of doing business I guess. But hey there are real thieves out there!

    12. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      *sigh*
      Have you run a software business? If so, you will know that if its trivial to steal your product, people do it, and you end up flipping burgers for a living. The topic poster is trying to run a business, not some sideshow hobby. Businesses need revenue, and you only get that by taking steps to prevent people taking your product for free. its not complex. If you don't like the way capitalism works, feel free to move to n korea.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    13. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by MartinG · · Score: 1

      No shop can make a profit if too many people take products from them without paying.

      Many, many companies make a profit from software without charging for the product itself.

      See the difference?

      Yes, I find security guards annoying. If some shop found a way to make a good profit without them I would shop there.

      Similarly, if a software provider found a way not to need copy protection, I would buy from them. Oh wait! They do. They have adapted their business model to better suit lots of their customers and as a result they are getting more customers.

      I'm sure shops would do the same if they could, but traditional goods and software are not the same. In the past lots of legal framework has been set up to try and crowbar software (which is a fundamentally abundant resource once created) into the old economic model of physical goods (which are not) but it is failing, and failing badly.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    14. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free software continues to drive down usability and reliability expectations.

      Oh, come on. I could just as easily point out as many crap proprietary applications as free applications. Well, maybe since anyone who can type can start a project on sourceforge, maybe the numbers don't match, but it's really besides the point.

      Compare the linux kernel to either the Vista kernel or OS X, for example. OS X is still using old mach technology that can't properly take advantage of multiple cores or handle massive concurrency well. Vista, well, who knows where the kernel ends and the viruses begin, but there's certainly no reason to say it's better in any way whatsoever. Playing mp3's virtually halts networking?? Please.

      The showcase core central apps are what we're talking about - not all the frilly cruft on the edges. You can argue theory all you want, but the proof the free software model is right in front of you. Just look at the real world applications being produced. Apache. Java. Tomcat. PostgreSQL. KDE. Gimp. Blender. OpenOffice. And on and on. You can do your point by point feature comparisons with proprietary equivalents, and some features will win on one side, and some on the other. The more important point is that the free software model empirically works, works well, and has the momentum. Look at where free software was five years ago and where it is today - the amount of progress has been amazing. Look at where proprietary software was five years ago and where it is today - umm, what changed?

    15. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by carterson2 · · Score: 1

      I put your message as my gmail signature! (w/ cliffski credit of course)

    16. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by johnthorensen · · Score: 1

      While I agree that people should pay for software that they use, your argument has a critical flaw. You fail to take into account marginal cost of production. It's like this - if you make something you have the cost to develop the product, then the cost to copy that product.

      If someone who WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT YOUR PRODUCT ANYWAY steals a purse, you have lost the cost of creating the copy that they stole - i.e. the marginal cost of production. Put into numbers, say purse costs $50,000 to develop, and $5/copy then you lost $5.

      Software and other 'virtual' items have *zero marginal cost of production* (unlike your clothing store example). If someone (again, who would not have bought your product anyway) 'steals' your software, you lose nothing. Zip. Nada. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to get their heads around, but it's true.

      The caveat here of course is that not all pirates never buy software. Some people will steal your software who might have bought it anyway, and it is in these cases that you have tangible losses. Of course, we go 'round and 'round over how many pirates would have bought the software had they not pirated it. Probably someone has good numbers somewhere, but for sure they're not going to share them.

      Copy protection should be an economic decision, not an emotional one. On one side list the costs of copy protection (development/licensing, lost sales, et cetera) and on the other list the benefits (how many additional sales will be made). If column B > column A, put on copy protection.

    17. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Judebert · · Score: 1

      Yes, copy protection will annoy a small fraction of legit customers.
      Tough.
      That's the price of doing business. Do security guards irritate people in shops?


      Yes, they irritate me, and I think they irritate a LARGE fraction of legit "customers". I think the "small fraction" refuse to accept that it's just "tough" or "the price of doing business".

      Thanks to Michael Righi for testing if the "rights" of those businesses trump his Constitutional rights. He was on Slashdot not long ago, you remember: he was arrested for refusing to show his ID after refusing to be searched by the store manager.

      Why not go leave him a donation to his legal fund for defending your rights?
      --

      For geek dads: Contraction Timer

    18. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      There are two legitimate business models ...

      Charge for software, force the customer to get a licence and enforce it somehow

      Give the software away fro free, and charge for support

      The new style works for products that need support (note support, *not* maintainence/fixes they should always be free) and people are likely to actually pay for the support

      The old style works for products that do not need support or always need support (i.e. what you are buying *is* the support contract not really the software), the customer will only put up with this if the product is good and the licencing requirements are not too onerous, this is the problem with "Product Activation" in windows, it is onerous, it is annoying, and it does not seem to give you anything you have not already paid for ...!

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    19. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      The basic problem (and it saddens me that people cannot clearly see this) is that people are not honest, EVEN WITH THEMSELVES when it comes to whether or not they would have bought something after they got it free. That's just the way our brains work. Nobody likes to consider themselves thieves. Even people burgling houses justify it to themselves as being 'only fair'.

      The vast majority of people making software want to prevent theft of that software by using copy protection. the jury is not out, businesses every day make this call, and overwhelmingly choose copy protection. No surprise to see people who are not running a business trying to get stuff for free, but don't think that will change anything. Software developers need to eat.

      BTW I did a degree in economics and run a business, I understand the concept of zero marginal cost. maybe you should look up fixed costs and explain how they are paid back when the product is stolen by everyone?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    20. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Technician · · Score: 1

      Many people only take the cost of creating and distributing the media into account when discussing artificial high prices, but fail to consider the amount of labor and risk that go into the true product conveyed through that media.

      Fully agreed. On the flip side is the market and percieved value of the product. You may have spent 15 years working on a totaly bug free super app for my old Kaypro CPM machine and you think 15 years of hard labor is worth 100K per year for 15 years and try to sell me that product for 1.5 million, but I will realise the Kaypro CPM is obsolete and I can make do with a buggy copy of Excell on Windows XP for a small fraction of the cost.

      The end user could care less what effort went into creation. All they want to know is what good is it to me and what does it cost. From there they look at all the vendors offerings and pick something suitable. A good many software engineers lose sight of that. It may be better to sell at $30 a copy and go for volume to sell 1,000 copies instead of holding out for a retail price of $300 per copy and selling 2 copies.

      Your choice.. $600 or $30,000. Jacking up the price does not always maximize profit regardless of how much blood sweat and tears you pump into a product.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    21. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by popejeremy · · Score: 1

      If you've decided to base your livelihood on the hope that people won't use a computer, a machine whose primary purpose is to copy bits, not to copy your bits, then you don't have a very good plan to begin with.

    22. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by skeeto · · Score: 1

      everyone has the right to protect something that they've worked hard on

      My right to do whatever I want with my computer and my duty to share with my neighbor trumps your "right to protect" your software. Freedom is too important.

      What if the product you made was your only source of income and no-one bought it but everyone had a copy of it? You'd do whatever you could to protect your livelihood.

      I believe the proper response would be "Your failed business model is not my problem". If you want to shit in a paper bag and sell it in your store, no one is obligated to give you money even if everyone started to make their own shit-bags.

    23. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Floritard · · Score: 1

      Nope. And I was just pointing out how oversimplified your analogy was. I don't think anyone is complaining about simple serial number activation, but when you start adding dongles (hardware or software) and other software that pollutes an operating system and remains even after said software is uninstalled, you're crossing a line. And such software still inevitably fails to avoid being pirated. But keep on fighting that good fight you magnificent red-blooded American! Yeehaw!

    24. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      If so, you will know that if its trivial to steal your product, people do it, and you end up flipping burgers for a living.

      No. If your software is trivial break and impossible to maintain, then you'll be flipping burgers.

      I worked for small time developers as support whose software costs $10,000 a pop for their entire facility. We sent them discs and upgrades on CDRs. There used to be CD keys, but it was decided that to be done away with since it was trivial to xerox them.

      They made a pretty good profit even without support and training up sales because in order for fixes you had to talk with us directly. There were no forums, no nothing unless we knew who you were, and were paying for support and had also purchased the package. Of course for $10,000 a facility package, you can bet your ass that we had customer damand immediate software fixes taken straight to the coders that day and overnighted to them (this was late 90's)

      Software copy protection will annoy your customers to no end and they will get highly pissed especially since they are paying for support and go to another software package.

      However, social protection (support and fixes) is the only sure method people will buy your software once and over and over again. Of course most of your developers talking about stuff they sell on the net are often shareware developers who no one has a real niche for their software anyways.

      Thats why you flip burgers... Not because people pirated your software.

      Speaking of which there was a CAD program company who had horrible dongles who went out of business simply because everyone hated their dongles which was through a Parallel port system and would break if you went to a newer operating system.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    25. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by elgatozorbas · · Score: 1

      Even though this is not the answer the question submitter was looking for, Kudos to you for at least being true to the general /. spirit (which, btw I do not share).

      It is refreshing and an eye-opener to see how the /. crowd (and yes, I know this is not a Borg-like continuum) that's always shouting "information, music and everything else copyable 'wants to be free'", is now more or less collectively on the other side, when it concerns 'one of their own'.

      Respect!

    26. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      No, what he was doing was refuting your assertion that you can "try to extend your theories to the meatspace world." The previous poster did just that, but it didn't work because these are different types of situations. I often don't like it when people, say, "try to use a car analogy" or "imagine the same situation in a store.." Your examples that you used about security guards or tags on clothing don't fit the current situation because those are all pre-sale restrictions. Once the sale is made, all restrictions are released. In the software world, however, modern copy protection systems hassle the user well after the product has been sold, whether it be some 3rd-party protection program, license keys/servers, or online activation. The only offline comparison you can make are to objects which are easily duplicated.

    27. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by paj1234 · · Score: 1

      Excellent post, pilaftank. Succinct and totally right.

    28. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Have you run a software business? If so, you will know that if its trivial to steal your product, people do it,

      True, some people do it.

      and you end up flipping burgers for a living.

      Complete and utter bullshit.

      In a functioning society the vast majority of people want to do the right thing. Piracy mostly occurs amongst those who are time rich and money poor. Mainly people who wouldn't have bought the product anyway. Meaning no loss to the producer and a net gain to society.

      Fanatics like you who instantly equate could copy with will copy are a large part of the DRM problem.

      ---

      DRM'ed content breaks the copyright bargain, the first sale doctrine and fair use provisions. It should not be possible to copyright DRM'ed content.

    29. Re:What's the Right Amount of Copy Protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bullshit., this " wouldn't have bought it" crap is often spouted by retards on slashdot that think its some catch-all to justify theft. grow up you fucking thieves.

  3. Give it away for free by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    First of all, you need to open up the source. Get those customer eyes working for you!

    Second, you don't have to charge for the software or limit the distribution of the software in any way. You wrote the software, so you have the most/best knowledge of it. You can make tons of money on service contracts.

    --
    All I need to know about life I learned on /.

    1. Re:Give it away for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You can make tons of money on service contracts. Spoken like somebody who has never run a software development company.

      The fact is most companies will not make tons of money on support. If people are not willing to pay for the software up front, they are not willing to pay for support. I will take my former employer as an example. They purchased one copy of RHEL and had a support contract in place for that one copy. They installed it on over 200 machines.

      My current company charges $100 per agent and $20 per agent/year for support. We often get requests from people asking if we have a free or open source version. We have had people make comments that they would gladly pay for support if we had a free version. Based on experience, that is a lie and these people want something for nothing. We have business expenses to cover and cannot rely on support fees that may not show up.
    2. Re:Give it away for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yep, this theory works so well, that's why every open source person is rich.

      Hrm.

      Ok how about most of them make a great living from it.

      Hrm. That's not right either.

      Get customers eyes working for you!

      Hrm..wtf does that mean. Oh right, that theory that people actually take the time to look at your source code. Right. I do this for a living and I don't care much for looking at other peoples code even at $75/hour. So of course I'm going to do it for free on your software. We won't even get into that at least half the 'coders' out there shouldn't BE coding. The other half are pretty busy trying to make a living at it....and of course they come home from 10 hours of coding at work to look over OTHER PEOPLES source code, correct and/or improve it and send it back to them. For free. And those improvements are actually worth a crap.

      Yeah. Right. I laugh everytime I read about this BS. Does happen? Sure. Is it ANY sort of motivator when you are trying to write software? Not really. What usually happens with open source is that someone will get pissy that you change some part of the code, so they'll take your code, make it work the way THEY want and then publish it. Yah, that works out great for you, doesn't it. So if your software is popular, expect a lot of clones with minor changes. If your code sucks, no one is going to look over the source. Yep, I can see the money rolling in already.

      Keep in mind most people pushing open source are either 'toy' coders (i.e. they toy around and code in their spare time while announcing to their family what great developers they would be if someone would just notice them ) or are college students that don't live in the real world yet. Ignore them.

      So forget the open source. It's great for community projects and things of that sort, not for commercial software. Not that you are going to write something someone else can't write - that's just crap too - I give my code to my friends and co-workers all the time. But to place it out on the website where you are attempting to sell the software is just insane.

      Put enough protection on it that coworkers can't share it by just copying it - otherwise they will. This of course assumes your software is good enough they want to copy it. IF your software happens to actually NEED a service contract, then you might not need copy protection (notice how I don't assume it will). That's another bogus assumption you get from open source people - this idea that all software requires some sort of service contract and that you'll profit from that. Right - how many pieces of freeware did you purchase a software contract for after you downloaded and used it?

      Anyway, anything more than stopping causual copying is a waste of time - you aren't going to stop the real pirates. That said, unless you are about to write some really successful software, you probably aren't going to draw their attention anyway. If you do, you've done well enough it won't matter.

      BTW, this wasn't a very good place to even ask a question like that. This place is full of people that think linux is some sort of gift from God and that it's virus free because it's open source (not because, well, so few people have it on their desktop it's a waste of time TO write a virus for it) You aren't going to get real world answers from them, much less actual answers to your question.

    3. Re:Give it away for free by ThirdPrize · · Score: 0

      1) If it is a half decent piece of software then you won't need that much support. Then again I could put some bugs in just to drum up business. 2) As a developer I would rather be paid to write code than take phone calls from clueless customers. 3) I am sure the customer has better thing to do with their time than going through the code looking for my bugs.

      --
      I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
    4. Re:Give it away for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, I couldn't said it better. Hats off to you!

    5. Re:Give it away for free by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      99% spot on and funny to boot. But Linux actually IS more secure than other OSs. Of course it is also less secure than other ones, but overall it does pretty well in the security department both because it is open source and because the most important packages (and the system design that goes along with those) are written by pros.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    6. Re:Give it away for free by MartinG · · Score: 1

      Spoken like somebody who has never run a software development company.

      Spoken like somebody who only has experience in a small part of the software sector.

      To give you an example, our largest customer brings us several million pounds a year in support, and a few thousand at most in "license" fees.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    7. Re:Give it away for free by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The part I don't get about the whole selling service thing is that it provides an incentive to the developer to make software that needs service to make it work. Quality software comes with good documentation and does what it says, so any service contract would be extraneous.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Give it away for free by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Really powerful, flexible software projects of a large enough size have so many options and edge cases that companies have full-time technical writers for particular product lines. If someone's writing the docs full time, are you going to hire someone full-time to read them, or call support?

    9. Re:Give it away for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, S3, cc:Mail, Lotus, IBM, NetManage, Sun, Intuit. No, I think I have worked in a large part of the software sector.

    10. Re:Give it away for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, S3, cc:Mail, Lotus, IBM, NetManage, Sun, Intuit. No, I think I have worked in a large part of the software sector.
      Working at a handful of large (or well known) software companies does not mean you have worked in a large part of the software sector. It means you have worked in a small part of the software sector that is well known.
  4. Copy Protection is a Myth by gambolt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just like any kind of DRM. Dedicated individuals will find ways around it and likely have some fun in the process. Cracking copy protection is practically a game to a lot of people who will never even use the software. The only people who will be inconvenienced are the people willing to pay for the software.

    1. Re:Copy Protection is a Myth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like any kind of DRM. Dedicated individuals will find ways around it and likely have some fun in the process. Cracking copy protection is practically a game to a lot of people who will never even use the software. The only people who will be inconvenienced are the people willing to pay for the software.

      When I was in the University, I cracked software, as you said, for fun. I made some keygens for WinZip and cracked mostly programs that where not mainstream (I am from Mexico and usually cracked software in Spanish). Once, someone from a government office [doing biological research, who knew I cracked software] asked me if I could crack one piece of software (an specialized version of statistical analysis software for ecology, made in Mexico) and how much it will cost. The issue is that they had to pay something like $500 for *each* license (PC).

      I told the guy to give me the disk and after playing around with IDA, wdsam and softice I asked him $200. He very gladly gave it to me and I had the cracked version for him the next week. The guy was very happy because he told me everyone in the office were very glad that they could now install the program in every PC...

      I really did not care then, as it was really entertaining to crack the software (and I had too much time in my hands... as the University was to easy).

      Nowadays, although I do not program software for a living, I *do* like programming. But, from my background, I know that adding any kind of protection to an installable application is a waste of resources. Even if they phone home. In fact, the best piece of "crack" software I have ever seen IMHO, and the cleanest (in the cracking circles, modifying the executable is a dirty crack, a keygen is a cleaner crack) is when some group *created* a server which you ran in your computer and then when installing the applicaction you pointed your proxy server to localhost and the app will gladly register as legit after talking to the server... talk about reverse engineering!

      Therefore, in my opinion the only way to prevent illegal copying, and I have said it before in slashdot, is to provide Software as a service. Sure, you *need* to be connected to the internet but as the saying goes, *never* trust the client. There are advantages as well as disadvantages, but if you have all the logic of your application in *your* servers, then you can make sure that only the people who *really* need to use it will be paying for you and using it.

      As someone else has stated here, the correct amount of copy protection is NONE, but that is not the complete answer, the software provider *must* modify its buisness model in a way that their profit is not proportional to the number of copies sold... that does not work. Copy protection will only make the software developer waste money... And you will be caught in that vicious circle that a lot of software companies have...

      Darn... this comment is very good to let it go anonymous...

    2. Re:Copy Protection is a Myth by J+Story · · Score: 1

      An alternative approach would be to use weak protection methods, and look at software piracy as a form of marketing in order to gain mind share. Businesses, especially successful ones, will have as a matter of risk abatement a policy of licensing their software, and it would be that segment where you would get the bulk of your revenue. However, to get into the corporations in the first place, get it into the hands of starving students who will be working in these corporations.

      I think it may have been WordPerfect that did some variation of this many years ago. And one might argue that Windows would not have become the monopoly it is today if it had instituted WGA back in the day of version 3.1.

  5. And the is answer is none. by srussia · · Score: 0, Redundant

    None more black.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:And the is answer is none. by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      +1 Spinal Tap reference.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  6. Don't phone home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Use a license key, make constant improvements to the product and each new version needs a valid key, disable disclosed keys in new versions.

    To use your product a pirate would either have to settle for an old version, or constantly get a new hacked version and new hacked keys. It's enough to eventually get them to be legal.

    Remember if you make your product hard to use with lots of negatives like phoning home, them you'll learn the lessons the Record companies are learning. Nobody is bigger than their customers.

    1. Re:Don't phone home by FlyveHest · · Score: 1

      While a good idea on paper, you place a lot of faith in your customers, and give them a constant hassle when they want to upgrade the software.

      Should they upgrade the key themselves, maybe as part of the download process, should they get it via email, or maybe via a forum?

      I know I would be pretty annoyed having to enter a new key every time I upgraded a piece of software, even though the update cycle would be a month or two apart.

    2. Re:Don't phone home by Technician · · Score: 1

      It's enough to eventually get them to be legal.


      Bzzzzt! Right answer, but not in the way you are thinking. If the price isn't right, the anti-piracy stuff making it difficult does get them to be legal. Often getting legal is simply using a competitor's product.

      When MS Office started introducing copy protection and CD Keys (early versions of Works didn't use a CD key), I moved to Star Office by Sun Microsystems. Now I am almost completely on Open Office on Ubuntu and Freespire. The days of picking up a pirated copy of the newer version of DOS are long behind me. I've gone legal. I've also gone away.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    3. Re:Don't phone home by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Agree, this may be the best balance of protections I've seen so far. It doesn't intrude on the OS or anything else running on it at all, and don't require a functional Internet connection. Phoning home is among the worst ways of doing it, as you introduce so many points of failure -- someone not being connected, or maybe even your own license servers having problems.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    4. Re:Don't phone home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use a license key, make constant improvements to the product and each new version needs a valid key, disable disclosed keys in new versions.


      There was one Mac developer that used polynomials so that their serial numbers would "expired after some time.

      You downloaded the software, purchased a serial number, and entered it right away to have the software unlocked. If a serial number was posted publicly it wouldn't matter, because after a couple of weeks / months the software wouldn't accept it anymore since it had the date of generation encoded into it.

      If you had a hard drive crash and needed to re-enter it, you would simply have to contact the software publisher. They'd look up your name / e-mail address / contact info, and if it jived with a valid purchase they just sent you a new one.

      Another option would be to send license files that are actually RSA-signed data. The publisher has the private key, signs some data, and sends the text file to the purchaser. When the purchaser tells the program to import the key, the software has the corresponding public key embedded in the code and can tell if the license file is genuine or not.

      Combine RSA-signing and polynomial data and you'll have files that are hard to forge and can't be distributed for long periods of time. Short of modifying the software code it'd be a challenge to have break things.

      Of course the most important thing is to not hassle your customers too much because otherwise they'll simply not use your software.
  7. Phoning home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I will not use closed source software that phones home. I'm sure others feel the same.

    1. Re:Phoning home by somersault · · Score: 1

      Others yes, everyone no.. lots of people use Microsoft Office

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:Phoning home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OS X also phones home downloading stuff that can wreck your settings.

    3. Re:Phoning home by DanQuixote · · Score: 1


      OK, time for a car analogy.

      I buy a $40,000 car. It is running great, I drive it home, I play with all the juicy add-on features, very fun. Woops, it is late, shut it off and go to bed.

      Wake up the next morning, expecting to drive it in to work and arrive at my scheduled time. Turn the key in the ignition and SURPRISE! I get a message telling me to call the dealership and they will activate my vehicle. I call and read them the riot act, and they "patiently" explain that it is to prevent theft.

      To HELL with THAT!!!


      What we really need is a way to deactivate our payment every time someone deactivates software out from under us. There is a real and pressing need to be independent of the supplier after the software is installed.

      I don't like pork-barrel politics, and I don't like vendors who believe they have an entitlement to ongoing payments.

      (no I DON'T live in my mother's basement, and yes I DO write software for a living)

      --
      "We think people rightly feel that once they buy something, it stays bought," --Suw Charman, Open Rights Grp
  8. Phoning home is _not_ an option by gunne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Prompting for a license key upon installation could be ok, since most users are used to that hassle anyway (though it's still a hassle).

    "Phoning home" should never be done. Keep in mind that internet connection isn't flawless, sometimes it doesn't work for one reason or another, and would you really want to get a bunch of angry customers mailing/calling you when the software won't work/install because their internet connections went down for a while.
    On top of that, if your main user base is business users, most of them will sit in a protected environment which probably won't let your program phone home even if it tries.

    This is just an aside from the real problem with programs "phoning home", though. Integrity and privacy should not be taken ligthly.

    1. Re:Phoning home is _not_ an option by anboni · · Score: 1

      Also, if your main user base is business users, most of them will have some sort of software distribution mechanism. Whatever you decide upon, make very sure it'll work with any form of packaging. Also keep in mind that it's often much easier for the packager to be able to enter just a single license key for all installations, so don't make the software check license keys on the local network either. If you insist on counting concurrent users, you could consider adding a simple licensing server to be installed to the local network where each running copy can fetch their license (and fail to run if the license count is exceeded)

    2. Re:Phoning home is _not_ an option by Technician · · Score: 1

      On top of that, if your main user base is business users, most of them will sit in a protected environment which probably won't let your program phone home even if it tries.


      My home LAN hands out DHCP address that are blocked at the router. It is one of the few things I do to keep leaches off the wireless by dropping them in unroutable space. Only machines with a proper static address can get through the gateway. This has caused problems with many software packages that phone home before permitting you to set up the network connection.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  9. A license key is enough. by Draconix · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A license key is enough to discourage the casual pirate (custom encryption and multiple variables helps, such as name + password instead of just password) while, from my experience, not being enough to discourage regular users. Entering a key once and not worrying about it ever again is normal enough, and not bothersome. Going beyond that is asking for some glitch to cause legit customers to be calling you up to ask what the hell just caused their copy of your software to invalidate, or why they can't install it on their new computer, etc. Most importantly, it will also encourage people to crack your protection, thus making the pirate version more appealing to the end user.

    --
    By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
    1. Re:A license key is enough. by jamesh · · Score: 1

      I agree completely, and would also add that by releasing updates (with new features) often, you'll also avoid the pirates somewhat, and give paying users a sense of value for money (assuming they are entitled to free updates). It doesn't take long to break a registration key system (I used to do it when I was a kid on games I owned so I didn't have to futz around with code wheels which invariably got lost or wrecked), but it does require some effort, and to have to do it every 3 or 6 months is a bit of a pain, as well as for the users who have to go over to the 'dark side' of the web to find the latest keygen and risk exposing themselves to viruses etc.

      A few games have come out in the past with CD based copy protection which just flat out didn't work under some setups. This pissed off quite a few customers

      Also, if your software isn't really that useful to a home user, you probably don't have a lot to worry about. The company I work for has a few products which are used in schools. I ask google about serial number cracks for it every so often and have never turned up a hit yet.

    2. Re:A license key is enough. by jamesh · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Also, if your product is a popular one in the home user market, flood google with fake keygen apps which produce keys that initially look like they work (eg for a week or so) but then either:
      . chastise the user for trying to break the copy protection
      . if your program produces any output to the printer, always only print out an order form for the product
      . overwrite the systems windows product activation key so that they have to re-activate it - I'm just waiting for a virus to do this causing a huge overload for Microsoft as people have to manually re-activate their keys for the nth time.
      . email you (that way, someone will report you to slashdot and you'll get even more publicity for you product, and then you can claim that it is only the fake keygen that activates this function. flamewars and hilarity will ensue)

      (some of the above options are only offered in jest... see if you can guess which ones!)

    3. Re:A license key is enough. by initialE · · Score: 1

      Please do not provide trialware and call it freeware. People are sick of that, since they download it, install it, only to find that it's not what they were told it was.

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    4. Re:A license key is enough. by Vornzog · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could use one of those schemes where you have to type in the fourth word on page 27 of the manual - you'll avoid all these problems with cracked keys...

      --

      -V-

      Who can decide a priori? Nobody.
      -Sartre

    5. Re:A license key is enough. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      You don't want to make the copy protection so complex that the cracked versions end up being buggy. There's this gray area where your paying customer ends up using the cracked version because the legitimate version is impaired by the copy protection. This used to happen all the time, and was actually instituted as a policy for one product in a place where I worked (complete with opinions from the corporate attorneys in support of the idea -- turns out it wasn't illegal, at least not at the time.)

      Another problem is that you have to consider the cracked version that WILL be out there (if your product is interesting enough to be noticed), will serve as a form of advertising. If the crack is too hard to do, the cracked version will be buggy as hell as a result, and the advertising you get from the cracked version being out there will harm your reputation.

      Another thing to consider is the fact that, as the very first line of your sales pitch, you are saying "we don't trust you, the shitbag customer." That's what *I* hear when I find out I'm supposed to have a synchrosoft dongle or that I won't be allowed to try out the program on an isolated machine before putting it in production because activation is required and will disable the program if I put it on another host.

      Another thing to consider is that software activation is really "de-activation." You are putting a system in place to disable the software, with a hard cryptographic scheme to keep it disabled. Why do you imagine your prospective customer wants that? No matter how hard you try, there's no way you can spin that as a benefit to them. It benefits the distributor, in theory, but only by presenting the idea that the customer is considered a hostile party, even a criminal, which cannot possibly help the marketing.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    6. Re:A license key is enough. by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Your fake keygens will likely be recognized as such. Most P2P networks have validation strategies that will thwart any such effort to place viruses on your invalid user's computers. Needless to say any such attempt could also backfire by encouraging the cracking community to work even more strenuously at making updated and effective cracking software available for your application. There may also be some users who were fence-sitting as far as paying for your software but who would never even consider buying a product from your company again due to the bundling of virus functionality. Spite has a long memory.

      There was a particular software app that I didn't use often, but which I liked. There was no easy to find free alternative and it was not too expensive. I only had a trial version. So I seriously considered purchasing it. However I noticed that the (small) company seemed to be seeding P2P networks with viruses disguised as bogus keygens. I will never do business with that company. Ever. Out of principle. Out of spite. Nor would I ever recommend it to others. I would advise people to stay away from anything from that company as they obviously cannot be trusted.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  10. Phone home to what? by mist · · Score: 1

    If you want your software to phone home, are you going to provide a fully resiliant highly available infrastructure for it to phone home to? If not, what's going to happen to your customer base when they can't use the software they have legitimately bought?

    Every piece of protection you add to your software burdens the legitimate end user. It tends not to burden the pirate, because he/she will have downloaded the version that someone else cracked for them ages ago.

    Your software will either be good enough for people to pay for, or it wont. If it is, then people will buy it, you don't need protection for that, you just need to write a good piece of software, that people want.

  11. Don't require a connection by dargaud · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I worked with equipment that was 3000+km and 10 months away from the closest internet connection, so anything that requires a net-activated key is an absolute no-no. We are still using Win2K for that purpose, and more Linux all the time (although you have to select a distro that won't try to download itself all over again once a week).

    You don't need to go this far: I spent the last 3 weeks on the road with my laptop: Matlab ceased to function as soon as the license key manager got out of touch of the license server. I hate that macromedia shit.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:Don't require a connection by nietsch · · Score: 1

      [quote](although you have to select a distro that won't try to download itself all over again once a week)[/quote]
      Showing your lack of skills are you? Some distros might include a desktop program that reminds the user that there are new updates available. If it can't find any repository (or you create a cdrom repository), it can never find any updates so it won't bother you. Just turning off the nagging program works too. Was it too hard to figure that out yourself?

      --
      This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
    2. Re:Don't require a connection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. Where were you at? Atlantis?

    3. Re:Don't require a connection by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      matlab is from mathworks not macromedia and i'm pretty sure you can get nodelocked licenses that don't require a license server. If you really need matlab on the road then your company shouldn't have bought a floating license for you.

      Windows XP corp and big brand OEM don't need activation either and even whitebox OEM and retail can be phone activated.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:Don't require a connection by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      Then you bought the wrong license. You can get node-locked matlab licenses that don't require any connection. Funnily enough the shared floating-licenses require a connection to the license server...

      --

      jh

    5. Re:Don't require a connection by zlogic · · Score: 1

      It's not Macromedia, it's Macrovision.

    6. Re:Don't require a connection by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Sorry about the mistake. Probably because I have a high dislike of either company...

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    7. Re:Don't require a connection by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Get off your high horses. There are some distros that are basically unusable after a CD install and that require a lenghty internet connection to get everything patched up and running. If you need to do a reinstall of Gentoo on the field, you are basically screwed. Similar with a personal copy of XP, the minute of satellite phone connection was 7$ so the first words of any support call were a screamed "Don't put me on hold I'm calling from Antarctica!".

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    8. Re:Don't require a connection by nietsch · · Score: 1

      So maybe your conclusion should have been that Gentoo is not the right distro for you. Not because it does what you alledge it does(what actually?), but because you are lacking the skills/time/motivation/foresight to learn how to use that particular tool/distro/package/screwdriver before you use it in a critical situation. It does not matter what product, if you refuse to invest time&effort in it to be able to use it in a high-stakes mission, you deserve your own-devised failure.
      If you need to reinstall any linux distro in the field, it is not the distro's fault. You could have tested your setup before you left, you could have learnt more skills to repair it properly instead of the windos 'solution' of reinstalling. If you need to reinstall, it shows that you did not have a good backup.
      If questioning your willingness to learn is a high horse, then please let me thank you for trampling you. It was a real pleasure.

      --
      This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
    9. Re:Don't require a connection by dargaud · · Score: 1
      I don't know why you're so strung up. I'm not criticising Linux, or even Gentoo which is my distro of choice for most tasks. I was merely answering the original poster by stating that in some cases having software phone home, even for as good a reason as an install or an update, can be highly undesirable.

      And when you are on the cold field, no matter how well you plan, shit happens regularly. It's Murphy's law incarnate.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    10. Re:Don't require a connection by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      And it's actually MathWorks.

    11. Re:Don't require a connection by zlogic · · Score: 1

      I've used Matlab and I think it uses a third-party licensing service, probably FlexLM.

    12. Re:Don't require a connection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you phone the MathWorks customer support line, they can tell you how to configure the license server to allow users to 'suck down' a temporary standalone license to their laptops that is valid for a certain amount of time (1 or 2 months?) without any contact with the license server. The license pool available on the server will then decrease by one until the license is returned from the laptop.

    13. Re:Don't require a connection by greed · · Score: 1

      FLEXlm, the license manager used by many products including MATLAB, is now from Macromedia as they bought Globetrotter a few years back.

      Good luck on the budget for a nodelock key; they're usually much more expensive than a floating license.

      What he does need to look into is a little thing called 'lmborrow'--but that only helps if the vendor allows licenses to be borrowed by offline workstations.

      Still, the only thing worse than FLEXlm/FLEXnet is the stuff people come up with because they don't want to license FLEXlm or FLEXnet. At least once an admin knows how to deal with FLEXlm, adding new vendors to it aren't that big a deal.

      My favorite is still no runtime licensing, count users by support contracts.

    14. Re:Don't require a connection by nietsch · · Score: 1

      I am not strung up, but what irritates me is your tendency to blame your faults on other things/people (Linux distros and Licence servers in this case). You are also evading criticism instead of responding to it. Nice ingredients for a flamewar, don't you think?

      --
      This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
  12. As little as it takes... by pla · · Score: 4, Informative

    Is it acceptable for the software to phone home?

    As a member of a small corporate IT department, I can tell you that (except for Microsoft itself), software phoning home for anything other than updates means instant banning of your product.



    If so, what data is appropriate to report on? The license key?

    If you insist on going down that path, what information would really help you reduce piracy? Keep in mind that, merely during the initial evaluation of your software, the same license may get used a dozen times without any intended piracy... "Yup, works on XP. Yup, works on 2k... Oops, blows a gasket on 98... Doesn't seem to like server versions...".



    Should I disable license keys for small amounts of piracy, like when there's 3 active installations of the software? What about widespread piracy where we detect dozens or hundreds of uses of the same license key?

    That gets tricky... IANAL, but only the big boys like Microsoft can get away with that BS. If you try it, you should probably prepare to get sued.

    Now, you do have one chance to block it - At installation. Even I'll allow (grudgingly) most products a one-time online activation. If at that time you deny activation and give an EASY way to contact you to resolve the problem (you can expect them to lie, and should probably just give them a new code, but it might serve as a reminder to the users that they shouldn't make too many more copies), okay, fair game. After-the-fact, though? YOu'll just piss legitimate users off.

    1. Re:As little as it takes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you guys don't use Adobe or Google products?

    2. Re:As little as it takes... by pla · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you guys don't use Adobe or Google products?

      Google, absolutely not (except directly, as a web page).

      Adobe, you can "break" its phone-home aspects simply by replacing the updater executable (the name of which seems to change with each version) with a stub exe that simply returns 0 (the standard Unix "true" program, if I can say that without causing an argument about true vs. Posixly-true).

      And believe me, if I could ban Adobe products, I most certainly would. For supposedly high-quality, nearly-ubiquitous software, that crap causes me more headaches than just about anything except a POS POS (both interpretations intended) program we use. Unfortunately, at least Acrobat falls into a category approaching my "Microsoft" exemption for importance to the company.

    3. Re:As little as it takes... by swillden · · Score: 1

      except for Microsoft itself

      Why do they get a pass?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:As little as it takes... by pla · · Score: 1

      Why do they get a pass?

      Because IT exists to serve our users, not the other way around (though don't take that as my believing "the customer is always right" - If I didn't know my job better a whole lot better than the majority of my users, the company wouldn't need me; at the same time, if I always played the BOFH, they wouldn't want me).

      Blocking people from ill-behaved programs with a dozen alternatives, I can justify as "for your own good". Forcing everyone to learn an entirely new base platform, only to trade one set of problems for another, would not help anyone (including me).

      Like it or not, most people know how to use Windows and MS Office - Not to mention far too many "productivity" and enterprise apps only come in a Windows flavor. And since the company already paid its MS tax, I can't even offer a strong financial incentive to switch to Linux (though if Vista keeps sucking so hard, perhaps in a few years when XP goes EOL). I may use it at home, but at work, I choose the solution that will work best for everyone, not just myself.

    5. Re:As little as it takes... by swillden · · Score: 1

      To summarize your answer: "Microsoft gets a pass because they have us over a barrel". So your rule isn't that software that phones home isn't allowed, it's that software that phones home isn't allowed if there's an acceptable alternative that doesn't phone home.

      In other words, it's a selection criterion that ranks somewhere below cost and feature set, not a strict security policy. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a good idea to be clear on what your IT policies actually are.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:As little as it takes... by MadonnaC · · Score: 1
      Is it acceptable for the software to phone home?

      As a member of a small corporate IT department, I can tell you that (except for Microsoft itself), software phoning home for anything other than updates means instant banning of your product.

      Does that mean that you're going to drop Microsoft, as shown by their WGA servers failing over the 08/27-8/28 weekend and marking all the products as pirated?

  13. That's Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Easy. Make a it a crappy, buggy program so that it won't be worth pirating. Fool proof!

    1. Re:That's Easy by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Easy. Make a it a crappy, buggy program so that it won't be worth pirating. Fool proof!

      Nope. For instance, it hasn't worked for Windows.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  14. IF it's any good, it'll be stolen like hotcakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IF, and that's a big if. Unless you have alternate exposure (in other words, not online), most of your "users" will steal it. You can count on that. If they can use google, they can and will seek out the "free" (as in piss) version 100 to 1. It may well be true 99 of those 100 would not have bought it anyway, so consider that. Also, if you're only available for download/online, chances are slim you will see any real return on your investment. If you want to make a little extra money, you WILL do better at Mickey D's, with a lot less effort.

  15. Not strictly true by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    Some copy protection stops the casual pirate. The people who don't know much about computers and may email your app to friends.

    But using dongle protection is pretty stupid, especially when in some cases it cripples performance (Steinberg's use of dongle copy protection on Cubase has been rumoured to do that).

    1. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, those casual people will just download a copy, that someone else has already cracked and put on the Internet. Better to have no protection so current customers will not find the cracked version more convenient and stop being customers. Better still provide the source so your legs don't get cut out from under you by a competing open source project.

    2. Re:Not strictly true by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      and you can easly get a cracked copy of Steinberg's Cubase.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    3. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When a competing open source project emerges, you still can open up your source (you should, however, be careful from the beginning that you don't close up that possibility by using third-party proprietary code with no open source equivalent).

    4. Re:Not strictly true by clayne · · Score: 0

      However, Steinberg's use of the particular dongle method and provider (http://www.syncrosoft.com) took the last group 1000s of man hours to crack and they vowed to not even bother with the next release (the actual group was "H2O" and they provided a small background summary in one of the Cubase release NFOs). So in reference to the OP's question? Well, that far, if he wants it to stay uncracked for a decent amount of time. Otherwise, much like an average size vs space analogy, it's convience vs security in this context.

    5. Re:Not strictly true by cliffski · · Score: 1

      how many profitable software companies have you run? because if you have not done so, you aren't in a position to say what will keep his business afloat. If you aren't a software biz owner, you are posting entirely from a 'what the customer wants' POV, which is generally "I want it all, free, with no inconvenience."
      Giving the customer what they want is important, earning enough money to pay the bills is even more important. If irritating 0.1% of your customers is what pays the rent, that's the choice you 8have* to make.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    6. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't give the customers what they want, someone else will.

    7. Re:Not strictly true by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *sigh*

      So if the customers want the product for free, you work for nothing?

      It isn't that simple. Customers want unreasonable things. I want every pizza I ordered to be free, delivered instantly by a dozen naked supermodels. But just because my local pizza company will not provide such a service does not mean a new company will materialize to do so.

      throwing out glib comments you read on some web forum does not equate to actual business experience. You cannot pay employees or bills with glib expressions, only profits earned from PAYING customers.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    8. Re:Not strictly true by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if the customers want the product for free, you work for nothing?

      It isn't that simple. Customers want unreasonable things. I want every pizza I ordered to be free, delivered instantly by a dozen naked supermodels.
      See, that's because you are unreasonable. Most people will gladly pay a fair price for a good product. It's when we have to pay exorbitant prices for buggy products that we get upset and go to your competitor. And when you throw in "get treated like a thief", that just about guarantees that we'll rush to your competitor.

      I would also like a pizza delivered by a dozen naked supermodels (if only to make my neighbor green with envy), but I'd expect to pay quite a lot for that service.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to me that if your neighbour gets to see the delivery then he gets as much out of the deal as you do...?

    10. Re:Not strictly true by xarragon · · Score: 1

      Well, if they are prepared to pay for high quality software, why force them to do so? By forcing them with technical means, you make your products less useful and show distrust towards your customers. Give me the same quality level on the software that pirates get, and I will gladly pay for it. But if you ASSUME that I will pirate your software, and punish me with phone-home software if I run a legitimate copy, why shouldn't I pirate it?

      It's a deadlock; someone will have to take the first step and show trust. We must start trusting our users. The pirating cheapskates would hardly ever buy the software anyway, so why bother with them? At worst, they'll give us free marketing of the product.

      Just give paying customers a support ID, and only provide support for those registered users. You can't crack tech support.

    11. Re:Not strictly true by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >The pirating cheapskates would hardly ever buy the software anyway

      In the past there have been many counterexamples to dispel the perception of who the "pirate" is. There have been cases where the "Zero-day warez" was released as an inside job. There have been countless situations where the cracked version of the software works better, and is being used by the paying customer as a way of working around a limitation.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    12. Re:Not strictly true by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Steinberg wants to put the crypto key of Syncrosoft in between me and the means of production of *my* creative work. This is unacceptable to me as an artist. The result has been that I seek (and find) alternatives to their products from their competitors.

      In Steinberg's case, this was especially bad. At one point, their branding and marketing had me convinced that they were the only serious choice for certain kinds of audio production. However, their loud and shrill insistence on copy protection was a whip that made me seek out alternatives.

      Their very expensive marketing got me to the till, and their requirement of a dongle turned me away. I'm sure that had a cost.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    13. Re:Not strictly true by hitchhacker · · Score: 1

      throwing out glib comments you read on some web forum does not equate to actual business experience. What on earth does the GNU Library (glib) have to do with this?

      Anyway, your argument flew out the window the second you mentioned naked supermodels delivering free pizza..

      -metric
    14. Re:Not strictly true by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I want every pizza I ordered to be free, delivered instantly by a dozen naked supermodels.

      It gets old, trust me.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    15. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't get the pizza.

    16. Re:Not strictly true by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I want every pizza I ordered to be free, delivered instantly by a dozen naked supermodels. But just because my local pizza company will not provide such a service does not mean a new company will materialize to do so.
       
      Is this close enough?

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    17. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Twelve Naked Pizza Delivering Supermodels

      One to feed me,
      One to blow me,
      One to massage my back.

      One with soda,
      One with napkins,
      One to lick on my sack.

      One to kiss me,
      One to burp me,
      One to finger my crack.

      Two to make out,
      Yes, two to make out,
      And one to help me jack.

    18. Re:Not strictly true by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      oh dear, you again.

      face facts, you think all software should be free and have fuck all respect for people who would make a business out of writing high quality software.
      I don't use cracked software, nor do I expect any professional product for free.

      Somehow, I'm able to make a good living from my "intellectual property" without having to use DRM, patents or copyrights. Creative Commons is plenty good enough for me, and as consumers become educated, I'm learning that customers really take to being treated with some respect.

      I've lost income from my work being copied without permission and distributed without payment. At first, I reacted like you, cliffski, and assumed everyone was out to rip me off and that I could only make a living if I played the RIAA game, lock everything down and treat the customer like a thief.

      But after a great deal of thought about the morality and ethics involved in making a living from the commercial value of my ideas, I set out to find a better way. The more I looked carefully at the failures of our current, outmoded model of "intellectual property", the more I realized that there was an underlying ugliness and hostility running through the whole system. I had saved a few bucks and decided that I would do it differently or I wouldn't do it at all. Well, before I had to dip into our nest egg, I learned that there were a lot of people who felt the way I did. I met people from the EFF and Creative Commons and others who also believed that we were taking an approach that was already obsolete at the Industrial Revolution.

      I'm not at all sure that you'll understand this, cliffski, but I also learned that by taking a more enlightened approach to the value of ideas and by using a more progressive method of dealing with my customers, I'd also be a lot happier and less bitter about the entire enterprise.

      From the tone of your comment, you might benefit a little from changing your outlook. You don't sound like a happy camper.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:Not strictly true by bit01 · · Score: 1

      you think all software should be free

      He didn't say that. You're a fanatic.

      ---

      DRM'ed content breaks the copyright bargain, the first sale doctrine and fair use provisions. It should not be possible to copyright DRM'ed content.

    20. Re:Not strictly true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      grow up you dork.

    21. Re:Not strictly true by AdamKG · · Score: 1

      You cannot pay employees or bills with glib expressions, only profits earned from PAYING customers.
      What? Oh man, my boss has so been screwing me!
      --
      groupthink: It's good for self-esteem.
    22. Re:Not strictly true by macndub · · Score: 1

      Agreed. This thread is insane! "Customers will pay you if they like your product." Not fucking likely. I create and market a product unlike any other in our industry. We charge a shitload for it. Our customers want the product, but they'd rather not pay for it. So we track every single version. About half of our usage is pirated, and that's just the pirates that we know of. Because we charge so much, we give customers access to our experts when they want it, fly in to see them (no charge)... our service is lights-out fabulous. And still motherfuckers steal our shit. "It's too expensive waaah!!! If it were half the price, you'd get more than twice the users." And if we cut the price to zero, we'd get an infinite number of users and retire rich. Or something.

  16. I May Get Lynched for This, But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a fan of including some sort of unique identifier (serial number or some such, probably encrypted) embedded into the software so that if the software does get loose, you can at least trace the problem back to its source and potentially take appropriate action. In other words, you'll have more evidence that a specific someone committed copyright infringement than otherwise.

  17. Code Wheels by ameoba · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've been waiting for code-wheels to make a comeback.

    --
    my sig's at the bottom of the page.
    1. Re:Code Wheels by IndieKid · · Score: 1

      Ahh the good old days, when you had to take the weird paper rivet from between two sheets of card and photocopy them so you could play your pirated (*snigger*) copy of Monkey Island 2.

      I quite liked the copy protection in Sam and Max Hit the Road, where there was a picture of Sam and Max in fancy dress on each page of the manual and the game asked you to dress them on screen to match page X of the manual. Maybe this guy could take a load of photos of himself in different fancy dress outfits and put them on a section of his website that required registration! :-)

    2. Re:Code Wheels by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Maybe this guy could take a load of photos of himself in different fancy dress outfits and put them on a section of his website that required registration!

      Hmmm. Is this what you are suggesting? (SFW... sort of) [runs away]

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Code Wheels by iknowcss · · Score: 1

      Oh dear God, WHY?!

      --
      Life is rarely fair. Cherish the moments when there is a right answer.
    4. Re:Code Wheels by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      I have a codewheel from the days of yore that was also protected against photocopying... the wheel has matt black text on a shiny black surface... and absolute nightmare to read... and you had to use it EVERY time you ran the game...

      I far preferred the ones where you were given a page number, paragraph number and line number and had to type in the first word on that line...

      then I discovered how to hack the executable to non-op out the comparison check. Usually a branch instruction. Then I could type in anything...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  18. Personal Delivery by clickety6 · · Score: 4, Funny


    Have each copy personally delivered(*) to the client and you will find that they never pass on copies and will faithfully purchase every upgrade you make available.

    (*) Personal Delivery service to be carried out by Marco and Guido who have their own, very smart uniforms (Gucci suits, dark glasses) and will also provide their own baseball bats. A personal message from you to the client will also be delivered with every copy of the software with a reassuringly soft, menacing undertone. Contact Marco and Guido DRM(**) Services on 555-NO-REFUSAL.

    (**) DRM = Delivery with Real Menace

    --
    ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  19. Do unto others by TheLink · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As you would have them do unto you.

    FWIW, I think license keys are fine. But phoning home is not a good idea.

    If you can link a license key to a mailing address or email address then that's good (could be yahoo mail doesn't matter - it's a matter of getting some stats).

    If you're planning to have future versions of your software then you might as well decide on how upgrades and patching is to be done - key upgrades, discounts etc :).

    --
  20. As long as it's fully transparent, most don't care by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Companies usually don't apply cracks. At least not anymore in this climate of "we sue the pants off you if you crack our shit". But they care about productivity.

    What I would do is this: Have your software, upon installation, create a keyfile. This file can be saved and, should a reinstall be necessary, be reapplied to the software. That way, you can requrest that your user enters a few key informations about himself upon installation, even a lot, because he will only do it a single time. This keyfile can then be sent to you. Inform the user that this will happen, so his license is personalized, and do not transmit any data beyond what you told the user. This way he can review what data is going to be sent to you.

    This pretty much does it, in corporate environments. The company will certainly dread to see their corporate license appear anywhere else, because they'd be liable for it, so they will store that keyfile somewhere safe.

    And that's pretty much it. I wouldn't require constant phoning home or similar. If people want to spread software, they will. Remember that most bosses don't know too much about computers. The existance of such a file that can link their license to them is often already more than enough to ensure they won't spread it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. embed protection into features by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Companies tend to short-buy their software and install single copy on several computers, if they deal with small fry software providers. Since this is a program for corporate users, furthermore a program which assists coordination and cooperation, make it produce as much confusion as possible if there is duplicate identity (license key) in company. E.g. require user details to generate license key and have program output put stationary with that details (e.g. name, function, department) on each printout.

  22. Let some fall through the cracks by otter42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who was it that said to always make sure to leave a spot in the fence where children could sneak through? P.T. Barnum, perhaps? The point is, people used to understand and accept that a certain amount of "losses" will occur, and that sometimes these "losses" are in fact good for profits, by driving more paying customers to the business. It's only recently that we've evolved the technology and capabilities to ensure that EVERY person gets charged for EXACTLY what they consume. As if we could even know that for sure...

    Don't apply macro-laws (movement of fluids) to micro situations (individual molecules in a fluid). Focus on the macro violations-- widespread corporate use without a license-- but let the little people slip through the cracks. Those of us who install and forget, and never really get much use out of the program anyway, are very unlikely to buy the program in the first place.

    Explaining to people how to pirate but appealing to their goodwill might go a little far, though. I would report only the serial numbers used in the registration, along with the IP address that contacts your server (not the IP address of the machine itself). The rest of the information is None Of Your Business (TM). Try to find a happy medium between accepting a couple copied serial numbers in the wild, and noticing that a large number of computers coming from similar IP addresses are using the same serial number.

    Definitely do NOT disable the program if it cannot phone home. I *hated* that about Bioshock, when my crappy firewalled network made it almost impossible for me to activate the software. Since you're aiming at corporate networks, you're certain to have lots of people with this problem.

    Good luck with it.

    PS: What are the current laws on downloading a program and using a serial number to unlock it? We all know that EULAs have yet to be proven in court, with many cases existing that both support and reject EULAs. So is there a clear case where it's illegal to use a serial number to unlock freely given content?

    --
    www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
    1. Re:Let some fall through the cracks by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >What are the current laws on downloading a program and using a serial number to unlock it?

      In most places this is legal; *distributing* the program is the offense. Copyright is all about distribution.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  23. Some ideas by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

    Any copy protection will affect legal users.

    Short and simple, that's it, take it or leave it. If you want copy protection, you must understand that you cannot "hide" it from legal users.

    As for the right amount... it all depends on the situation.

    Since you are going for businesses which would have multiple installations; make it centralized. Make a small central "activation" server app that all installations contact at some interval and manage all registration from there (just use single multi-seat keys or something). Atleast this spares trouble for the end-user. Just count the number of currently active installations and give warnings to the users and/or server admins (make sure it works with common admin reporting tools). Most importantly; allow grace periods. i.e. Allow 10% more installations to be used for some short period or allow the product to be used 1 month more than licensed. Think of something that won't affect continuity of the companies buying your product assuming the make honest mistakes. Businesses generally want to be legal; help them, don't force them. Provide them with tools to make it easy for them to comply.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  24. Use nothing, or hardware by Alkonaut · · Score: 2, Insightful
    If I was really worried, then I'd skip the hassling of customers, and instead try to gather data on wether there is any real piracy going on. For example, let the setup program phone home and log itself as a unique installation. You can even skip the license number then. Of course, if the phoning home fails, it fails quietly. Noone should need an internet connection to install the software. And if the software is denied an internet connection (by means of a firewall for example) the installation should succeed anyway.

    Be open about the phoning home. Noone likes a closed source software that phones home for no reason. Don't hassle customers, even the ones who install a copy that is known to be pirated. You can't really tell who's the legitimate customer and who is not.

    If you discover that there is widespread piracy of your product, and you want to do something about it, then make the leap to hardware protection. Bear in mind that dongles are quite a hassle for the customer. But at least the hassle is effective. Other means of protection means a hassle for paying customers, and just a fun challenge for pirates.

    1. Re:Use nothing, or hardware by Technician · · Score: 1

      But at least the hassle is effective

      Ever lost a dongle off a laptop? Dongles are very effective. A dongle is the prime flag that a manufacture is way over proud of his creation and will protect his baby at all costs. By the way, if you want to use that baby, it'll cost an arm, a leg, and your firstborn.

      In a nutshell, a dongle sends me packing to the other guys. I don't do dongles. They almost always come with very high price software for a niche market with a poor support staff. The dongle is another built in point of failure. I want software that works, not easly broken low reliability software.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    2. Re:Use nothing, or hardware by Alkonaut · · Score: 1
      Agreed, dongles provide a point of failure, which is why you should never use them just "because you can".

      And if you have competition that does not use dongles, then you can't use dongles either, at least not if you fear that customers will feel that that difference is enough to choose the competitors product over yours.

      Also, if you suspect that the customers computer will be used for anything other than as a dedicated workstation using your software, then don't use a dongle for that product.

      Our viewpoints combined gives this my viewpoint exactly: copy protection is for expensive niche products, with a small userbase.

  25. Protected Environments. by burnttoy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Spot on - I know plenty of people who use PCs (usually laptops) in their music and/or art studios who never connect those machines to the internet... EVER! The muso types will often strip back everything on a PC leaving a bare OS + drivers + sampler/sequencer + ASIO drivers. It's all they need and they believe they get better performance and more security without it.

    I also know, and have worked for, companies where information is so secret (mission critical biz stuff or military) that you have to use a provided laptop in a room with no windows that's shielded from radio wavs... paranoid, yes, but "phone home" software is simply not an option in that case. Also. no phones were allowed in that room so manual "phone home" wouldn't have been possible.

    Also, some of us are so paranoid that we don't let anything in/out of our firewalls except our browser application. Mind you, I can still use the interweb and I've never been trojan/virused... except this damn cold I seem to have but I can't blame the internet for everything!

    --
    Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
    1. Re:Protected Environments. by deftcoder · · Score: 1

      It's all they need and they believe they get better performance and more security without it.
      s/they believe //
      --
      Peace sells, but who's buying?
    2. Re:Protected Environments. by Sinistar2k · · Score: 1

      But even in that environment, you could do "pick up the phone and phone home" where the software generates a challenge code that you can call into a company's support line and receive a response code that will activate the software.

      The activation on our software products even allows you to print this information for faxing should you wish to have a hard copy of it.

  26. Very little, but some. by Fross · · Score: 1

    The key is to make the protection a slight annoyance/reminder to the user (but not enough that stops them using the software), but not worth the effort for a cracking group to spend time ripping it out and distributing it.

    The best example I can think of is Windows Commander ( http://www.ghisler.com/ ), which is a program I both use and love. It has a nagware screen each time you start it up, but otherwise functions fully for free. I did actually buy it, as it's a great program, but I found that out by using it for a year or so - the protection didn't get in the way of that.

    Of course, this is a balance in that windows commander only costs $30, if it was a piece of software that cost $300, it may have to be a lot stricter as there is more incentive for a user to never register it.

    1. Re:Very little, but some. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like WinRAR who make an excellent product I've been using for years. And I haven't paid for.

  27. A couple of things to think about by StaceyRey · · Score: 0

    A lot of people have said it is unacceptable to phone home. However, I haven't seen too many explanations as to *why*. First, if it requires an internet connection to register, and you don't have a connection at the time, the software will fail to register and then you have the problem of software that will not function. Also, will it validate itself over and over or just the first time. And, what happens when the user inadvertently blocks communication through a software firewall? In that scenario, your software will be blamed for the problem even though the firewall is what prevents the communication.

    Don't do nag screens. A lot of people despise nag screens and will not use software that implements them.

    There's a lot of truth in the argument about pirating. There *will* be a lot of theft of your stuff, especially if the trial and "full-up" versions are the same. Think carefully before going this route. That said, if you do, consider using email registration, which ties a code to an address (but make sure you avoid anonymous addresses such as Yahoo, gmail and mailinator).

    You *could* go with two distinct versions, but that also becomes a maintenance headache. Not an attractive choice, but it will give you the most control and will allow you to "fingerprint" every registered copy that goes out the door, especially if you have a unique identifier that can be traced to a specific user.

    Good luck.

    --
    This sig is offered AS-IS, with no warranty express or implied. Risk of using this sig rests entirely with the user.
  28. Unnecessary by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
    As you say it's "targeted mostly to corporate users", you don't need any software locks. Just a simple serial number activation. Doesn't matter if it's easily cracked or shared. That market doesn't use cracked software. It may irritate you to see it traded on warez groups, but none of them will actually use it, even if it were free. Don't use sneaky phone-home tricks, but you can be up-front and have a default option to check in, for the purpose of seeing if there are any updates, but of course at the same time you can use that to keep track of your installed base. But let the users turn it off if they want.

    If it were a Photsohop plugin or the like, that market is more likely to just copy, but corporate types will just fill out a requisition form if they want it.

  29. A rapping black guy by Ash-Fox · · Score: 4, Funny

    The only copy protection you need is something to detect you're inserting a disc/disk into the system, then have a black guy which raps with artificial intelligence to interact with the user.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    1. Re:A rapping black guy by cortesoft · · Score: 1

      No more Oregon Trail!??! Nooooooooooooo!

  30. Corps want their licence so let them have one by paj1234 · · Score: 1

    You don't need any copy protection if you're after corporations. Why?

    1. Corporations are terrified of the Business Software Alliance.
    2. Corporate IT departments have an incentive to search the company for unlicenced software - it gives them something to do. Licence compliance is a nice, simple, easy-to-explain and wonderfully time-consuming activity. It provides a marvellous way for the IT department to justify its own existence and be seen to be busy bees.

    So, just let them get on with it. All you have to do is issue nice licence documents that says "X copies of [your product] licenced to [company name] at [address]" followed by the product key. Then, the typical corporation will spend ages doing all the licence checking for you. Some won't be very good at it but do not worry, just ignore it. If they make mistakes with their licencing, the worst that can happen is they might get into trouble and you won't.

  31. Companies won't use unlicensed software by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 1

    If you have any kind of marketing and sale infrastructure at all, you have nothing to worry about. No company in its right mind will allow software piracy on its premises, especially not for the benefit of the company. Don't bother with anything fancy; just give your prospective users an easy hoop to jump through. The more red tape and annoyance you add, the less likely you are to gain customers.

  32. Think like your customers by ricegf · · Score: 1

    Caveat: I'm speaking of corporations in the USA here - I know nothing of how corporations in other countries approach software licensing, but I deal with it on a daily basis where I work. If I sound like I believe corporations are mostly about lawsuit avoidance when selecting software, then I'm coming through clearly. :-)

    If you choose to go the fee-per-user route, corporate customers will expect the ability to easily manage their licenses conveniently from one or more central servers. The value you are adding to them is that they can easily prove that their copies are licensed by running a simple report, and that report is an affirmative defense against any claims of illegitimate use. It also gives management confidence that their employees are not making copies without their knowledge and exposing them to legal risk.

    The best approach if you choose this route is to license an existing license manager - ask your primary customers which ones they use, and go with the most popular in your business sector. Of course, the license fee will come out of your profits, but that's the solution your customers will appreciate.

    Alternately, you can offer a reasonable "site license" fee based on the number of users of your software that they believe they will have (*not* their employee total). At annual maintenance renewal time, each customer counts up how many people are actually using the software, and the renewal fee is based on that. This adds the burden to your customer of tracking installations, but also provides an affirmative defense ("we have a site license!"). Of course, you'll need to trust your customers more with this one, as a dishonest customer could "miscount" to save money. Legitimate corporations, though, would never intentionally game the system out of fear of legal repercussions.

    In NO case should you pull a stupid stunt like phoning home. Where I work at least, we reject any candidate application that discloses spyware-type behavior in the license agreement (unlike home users, corporations have lawyers that read license agreements - and modify most of them). If an application phones home without disclosure, it's blacklisted at a minimum. A lawsuit in your direction is certainly a possibility as well.

    The "correct" answer on /. is to open source the code and sell support services, of course. This may work quite well, too, although in some sectors corporations consider open source to be less desirable than commercial code because of the cost of verifying that you actually own the code you're licensing. Smart corporations audit the source code of open source applications before deploying them, and correct any illegitimate code inclusion (e.g., mixing code with incompatible licenses); it proves "due diligence" in the event of a lawsuit. They don't have this expense with closed source apps, because they can't - and that means they can't be accused of lack of due diligence for not examining the code. The law is just like that. :-(

    The good news with the open source approach is that you're well-positioned competitively - once validated, the application can be deployed and used extensively, and then comes the "Who can we pay to support this?" opportunities. Code auditing can work in your favor here - once you're proven "clean", you'll be everywhere, diminishing the value add a competitor can offer.

    Personally, I would open source the app and provide a detailed audit of all the code at the same location you host the source code; this proves the code is "clean" and safe to use, and provides optimal value from a corporate perspective. Offer custom services built around the free code, and that pays the bills (if you're good). ActiveState is one successful company that uses this approach (they wandered into the fee-per-user area with Komodo, but that's now moving toward open source as well - another indication that this may be the best approach in the long run).

    Hope this helps, and good luck!

    1. Re:Think like your customers by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      If an application phones home without disclosure, it's blacklisted at a minimum. A lawsuit in your direction is certainly a possibility as well.

      Really? And on what grounds would you even possibly try to claim grounds for a suit?

    2. Re:Think like your customers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an application phones home without disclosure, it's blacklisted at a minimum. A lawsuit in your direction is certainly a possibility as well.
      Really? And on what grounds would you even possibly try to claim grounds for a suit?

      If people needed grounds for a suit, what would SCO have been doing with all their time these past few years???

    3. Re:Think like your customers by ricegf · · Score: 1

      ...on what grounds would you even possibly try to claim grounds for a suit?

      A scenario such as: You implement copy protection to prevent "theft of intellectual property". Your copy protection scheme malfunctions, and exposes private / proprietary data. Lawyers jump your hide based on various state anti-spyware statutes. Lawyers profit, you don't.

      Like this, for example: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051121-5605.html.

    4. Re:Think like your customers by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      Possible. Highly unlikely. It would also actually have to happen, not "the potential of".

    5. Re:Think like your customers by ricegf · · Score: 1

      Possible. Highly unlikely.

      A lawsuit in your direction is certainly a possibility as well.

      Bingo.

  33. Phoning home is counterproductive IMHO by Solandri · · Score: 1

    If your app requires an Internet connection or can die if it can't phone home, my experience has been that the user will often go out of his way to find a pirated version which doesn't have that annoyance. When it comes time to upgrade, the user then thinks, "Hmm, that pirated version worked pretty well last time. Do I really want to pay for an upgrade when I'm just going to be downloading the pirated version again?"

  34. Golden Hawk's CDrWin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone remember it? Man it is the first a software fought back. I lost tons of creative works. Ah...2gigs of porn... then pufff...gone.

  35. A few vital pointers by CharonX · · Score: 1

    A few vital pointers: First of all, I'd recommend using a serial as the core method for authenticating your software. Preferrably a key somehow based on the name & e-mail address should be used, having your name on "the record" is a deterrence to casually releasing the key on the net. I do not know if you plan to offer a "trial/demo" functionality (something I'd recommend, as try-before-you-buy is always good) but if you do then I'd suggest an additional "hardware-fingerprint-hash", displayed when he installed the trial version, of maybe six letters that the user is asked to add in his activation e-mail. Make no issue out of it if he wants to re-activate the key using a different hash, only if there are over two or three dozend of activations from the same user you should raise a red flag and take a deeper look why he changes his PCs that often. As an additional defence against piracy be certain to monitor the "Serialz" websites and maintain a blacklist based on the serials that appear there (and to put the heat on the guy who purchased that serial). Release updates on a regular basis, and include the blacklist in them. Also, with each update, slightly alternate the way your program checks the serial against the username, and make sure "old" executional files are not compatible with the new updated version, so if they want to bypass the serial check, they at least have to do it over and over again with each update. I'd use a slightly sloppy way to check for serials, i.e. a way that allows slightly more serials than it should, to make it harder to create a keygen (and to create headaches for said keygen once the key is used for a newer version). Alternatively do only a partial check on the serial upon entry / program launch, and perform additional check if certain important functions are used. Throw an obscure error message if the initial check is passed but the laters checks are failed (usually sign that someone tried to crack the program, bypassed the initial check, but failed to crack the later checks). Recommend that the user contact the creator for a bug report, for the offside chance that a legitimate user manages to fudge up his serial "just right" to trip it. Once a keygen surfaces (that is a once, not a if) change the key-generation scheme in the next major revision, be sure to apologize for the inconvenience caused for your registered users (both in the update and e-mailing them) and send them new keys.

    --
    +++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
  36. The right amount of copy protection is none by Bozovision · · Score: 1

    BUT. You should provide benefits for registration and you should let people know clearly that they are using unregistered software, and that you know.

    Why is the right amount none? I don't believe that we were unique when (in a past life) on removing copy protection on our software, our sales grew by about 20%.

    I think people want to test software before they pay for it, and copy protection stops them from using a try-before-you-buy approach. I think that most people who can afford the software and who think it's good value will pay for it whether or not there's copy protection. The others won't, but they may be an advert. I think it's more likely that companies will pay than private individuals, particularly if they are worried about sanctions posing a risk to their business.

    So, include no active copy protection, but do include measures that let people know the status of the software very clearly. A nice bright - 'Unregistered software' on startup + a similar notice on screen + a similar notice on print outs + these notices should change so that they don't become background that is filtered out of consciousness + a help link to your registration page + a note in the help about why they should register the software [make a point of saying that it's not just their company that is breaking the deal, but them personally] + a record of the IP address on screen + a note to say that the software phones home to say it's being used, with a note of what it tells + a note about benefits of registration - e.g. registered software gets automatic update notices + whatever extra benefits you can think of that are only available to people who have registered. The point is to embarass people into paying if they are on the borderline, but not to annoy those who will pay.

    If you are being clever, track the number of times a particular copy is used, and let the user know. And let them know that you know.

    Also make provision for unregistered, old versions of the software to become free - i.e tone down the notes when they are 2 versions old, but replace with a sign that says 'Version 1 is now free for use provided it's not used with projects of more than 100 steps. Version 3 includes many useful features and is only $150.' Old versions become adverts: after all, you aren't selling them anymore, and if someone hasn't paid after 2 years, they aren't likely to start now.

    You also have to make it ridiculously easy for people to register, and even more importantly, for people who have previously registered, who change their machine, or who lose their hard drive (or whatever) you have to make it incredibly easy for them to retrieve their registration.

    Put *NO* barriers in front of people who want to pay you, or who have paid you. These are the people who need your love because a major portion of profit on commercial software comes from upgrades.

    Hope that's useful.

    Jeff

  37. You can do a couple things... by fbartho · · Score: 1

    If you can guarantee internet access in most circumstances:
    Provide value added web only services tied to a user account. These services could be embedded in your application, but be subscription or a 1 time fee. The base application you could give out for free, but depending on what services you provide on the user's online account they'll want to pay you the fee to have an account. No license keys! But you do then have to provide some web-based services, and if your site goes down, all your paid users lose their paid functionality.

    If you can't guarantee internet access, or can't identify services that would work well attached to a web account, you could go the route of the "phone home" license key. tie the serial number to a simple e-mail address db, and track the number of computers on each key. The app doesn't immediately degrade if it can't get online, but if it does get online, it adds to the count using that key, beyond some arbitrary number, the system notifies you, and you can reissue the original user a key via their stored e-mail address, and then you can blacklist the old key (degrading any future machines and any old machines as they ping home). In this case truly determined people can block internet access from your program, or they can keep the computer offline or they can go through the effort of patching out the license key call and they'll still have a free copy of your software.

    Really it's a question of how much effort it takes to get around things vs how much annoyance things become for the real users if something small goes wrong.

    --
    Gravity Sucks
  38. Don't even bother... by Kwirl · · Score: 1

    Assuming that your program manages to differentiate itself from the 255 million other software programs that do that exact same thing, the answer to your question is none.

    If the piracy community wants your software for free and considers it worth having, then they will have it. You can't do anything about it. Ask Apple or Sony or Microsoft about how much money they spend protecting their software from piracy. Ask the 16 year old kid from New Jersey how many episodes of Pokemon he had to miss to destroy that protection.

    Is where I'm going with this making itself clear? You are already jumping into a small pond full of big fish, why waste your energy and resources attempting the impossible? Use an honor system, and hope that enough honest people use your product to justify your expenditures.

  39. Use a serial number by KingofSpades · · Score: 1

    Use a serial number scheme and post a non functional "crack" on p2p networks.

  40. Unrealistic expectations by Peeteriz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "While I don't wish to burden legitimate users, I do want to prevent most piracy."

    This will not happen. Cracks for very heavy-handed measures will be available to exactly the same people in exactly the same ways as a cracks for a simple serial-number check on installation, ergo a simple serial-check will get you 99.9% effectiveness of any other software system.

    The only things I have seen that seem to work are the hardware usb-dongles; the earlier ones were cracked but the new versions seem to be quite safe. (but they cause a number of other issues and don't qualify as non-intrusive).

    1. Re:Unrealistic expectations by ddrichardson · · Score: 1

      Dear lord no! Not more USB dongles!

      I use a number of diagnostic laptops provided by seperate manufacturers (I work in Military Avionics). Each one is different and has different passwords and most have a USB dongle.

      This works fine in some environments - such as in a hanger where you know you need, say a diagnostic laptop for a thermal imaging fault and you can pop to the toolstore and pick it up. If you need something to diagnose the bus then get the bus diagnostic laptop - all fine and dandy (except for the need for yet more power strips but that's a whole other issue).

      However when it comes to field use, then the single ruggedised laptop with multiple software installs becomes much more practical but the limitation is that:

      • There are typically only three USB ports - so only three systems can be in use.
      • Two or more dongles often cause problems with each other.
      • A USB dongle sticking out can snap off, not only requiring a replacement in an environment where time delays are unacceptable but also dangerous (you don't want a small piece of plastic and metal falling into the first stage compressor on a million pound engine, especially when pilots lives are at risk).

      The simple fact is that IMHO the only time they are required is when there is a genuine security issue not covered by standard operating procedures - for example flight recording systems, where you can be held accountable for listening to other people's conversations.

      While I appreciate this is a specialist environment, many businesses have field engineers and many businesses are involved in manufacturing environments.

      --
      A thistle is a fat salad for an ass's mouth...
    2. Re:Unrealistic expectations by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

      Your software must be very good, unique and important to get away with something like a usb thingy.

    3. Re:Unrealistic expectations by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      I too would use USB cryptographically secure device, *IF* creating the software represented a huge investment in personnel time. I would only require the dongle for install, but not for *every* time run, just occasionally for validation, and allow the user to say "not this time,I'm not at home" provided they had previous successful validations. Replacement of broken dongles would be done for minimal fee (basically, at cost).

      The idea is to prevent piracy without upsetting the user or preventing them from using the software at any time unless the were persistently abusing it.

    4. Re:Unrealistic expectations by CryoPenguin · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't work.
      If the program merely checks for the presence of a dongle, that can be cracked as easily as anything else, and only increases the hassle for legitimate customers. A cryptographically secure dongle just means you can't impersonate the dongle. You can still delete all the dongle-related code from the program.
      Dongles are secure if and only if they actually contain part of the program logic, and the executable on disk doesn't contain that logic. (Bonus points if you use a custom chip to accelerate some computation.) Then a potential cracker would have to reimplement that code in order to remove the dongle. But that eliminates any option of only sometimes using the dongle; the program can't run without it.

    5. Re:Unrealistic expectations by speculatrix · · Score: 1
      in a move uncharacteristic of /. I'll say you're completely right that not tightly coupling the usb device to the executability of the program weakens it to make bypassing it easy. hmm. I guess if the USB dongle only cost a dollar, it might prevent some casual copying, but then your customer only needs to get fed up with it once and download the crack, and thus help them discover piracy.

      I only discovered bit torrenting and p2p when I couldn't rip my legitimately owned copy-protected Sony music CD to listen to on my mp3 player, so I know from personal experience that you don't want yr customers to consider a crack as a legitimate business tool!

  41. Unique ID by JonyEpsilon · · Score: 1
    Of all the commercial software I've used that's had "strong" copy protection (i.e. you'd need to use a cracked copy, not just find a serial number), I've found Wolfram Research's Mathematica to have the best system. It generates a unique ID for your computer, and then you need to go online/call to get a password that works with your licence number and unique ID. I think the secret to making this work smoothly, and Wolfram have got this right, is to make sure that it takes no more than a second, and that there's always someone on the end of the phone who doesn't make you feel like a criminal if anything goes wrong. They're also very tolerant towards generating new passwords if you change your hardware enough to change your ID.

    The only other real "strong" option seems to be hardware dongles. I hate them! I don't have a parallel port anymore, or a floppy disk drive, and I hate carrying extra crap around if I want to use stuff on my laptop.

    1. Re:Unique ID by SirJorgelOfBorgel · · Score: 1

      You got to be kidding me - Mathematice the best system? I've never had so much crap from a program I tried to install (yes, fully legal, university license, you tend to get one when studying astrophysics). And not just the first time. Every upgrade, every time I got a new PC, etc. Absolutely HORRID system. If it wasn't Mathematica but a program that has real alternatives, I would ditch it immediately and never look back.

    2. Re:Unique ID by JonyEpsilon · · Score: 1

      Wow. I guess I've been lucky then. I look after a large number of licences for a physics department and we never seem to have any problems. What sort of difficulties did you have?

    3. Re:Unique ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wow" to both of you. I've used both pirated and legal versions of Mathematica. Both were easy to install.

    4. Re:Unique ID by SirJorgelOfBorgel · · Score: 1

      Well this was a couple of years ago, and I don't _exactly_ remember (aside from it taking hours, and in the end calling Wolfram), but IIRC it had to do with there being several sets of keys used for multiple steps in the registration process, with never an indicator which set you needed, and that generated a new bunch of keys that had to be put into Mathematica itself. Apparently, the installer / license manager / whatever could do most of this stuff automatically, but that failed everytime for some reason, so everything had to be done manually. After that experience (there were a fair number of my fellow students who had the same 'experience') we just started downloading and using illegal versions :) Much easier.

  42. I once had a great message... by toQDuj · · Score: 1

    The license key I entered was "unoriginal", and the software knew.

    I believe it said something like: "You do not wish to pay me for this software huh? Well, fine. But please then donate some money to UNICEF."
    And the software continued to work with that code.

    I liked that. Some people can't afford to pay for each bit of software, but still need it. It shouldn't be made easy for those people, but it shouldn't be impossible either. One day they'll pay.

    B.

    --
    Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
  43. Don't provide an unlockable version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to have an evaluation of your software, simply don't provide it with full functionality. If you allow a fully-functioning version of your program
    by simply entering a code then it will look very tempting to reverse. Instead, compile a demo with the certain functions and data completely removed. Then, on your
    site, have a downloadable full-version with no restrictions. If you feel that you need to protect your investment and your company is willing to invest the money it
    would take to do so then you could look into binary watermarking.

  44. Know thy customer by Minupla · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Consider your potential customer:

    You're writing project management software, so we're probably talking 150-200+ employees. Companies of this size are going to have some sort of security policy in this day and age, and potentially (depending on your market segments) may be on closed (meaning no or extremely limited external internet access) networks.

    There's a good chance at the low end of your customer base that they will have some variety of managed software push in place where IT pushes down software and licenses to the workstation users, and it's almost a certainty at the high end of project management using companies (my primary contract fits into this category, and uses centrally managed software).

    I'd therefore recommend a model that allows for central licensing, preferably with no need for IT management to install a license server (lower barrier to entry for your application) and does not need to phone home. I'd suggest a license key mechanism with an optional ability for volume licensees to share a single license database via a network connection.

    Will it be hacked? Yep, naturally (but you sound like you're clued enough to have worked that out without my help) but you're trying to keep honest people honest here. Let's face it, do you really care if you have one or two users install it for free at home to hone their skills if you just sold 500 licenses to the multinational who employs them?

    Large organizations have busy IT depts who appreciate it when software developers make their lives easier. Having an IT dept pushing your software over your competitors can only be perceived as a good thing, so take advantage of it! IT can put up very effective roadblocks if they perceive you as making their life more difficult and impeding things such as system imaging. The last thing you want to be is branded "incompatible with our environment" by your customer's IT dept.

    Cheers,
    Minupla

    --
    On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    1. Re:Know thy customer by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Maybe give the customers three options

      1: simple serial number but if you leak it then it will get blocked in the next update.
      2: online activation (preferablly with the ability for IT to generate single activation keys from thier volume license, to deactivate machines that they belive were installed without permission to free up the licenses and to restrict the IP ranges from which activation on a key is possible)
      3: internal license server doing the same as above but under thier control.

      For options 2 and 3 I would also add in an emergency mode which would increase the licenses by 50% for say a month while they sort out purchasing more from you.

      As others have said you can't stop the determined crackers all you can do is try and stop casual piracy (defined here as illegally copying software without the help of a cracker or cracking group).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  45. "Appropriate"...? by kripkenstein · · Score: 1

    How much copy protection is appropriate?

    Define 'appropriate', and you will have your answer immediately.

    If you want to maximize immediate profits at all costs, use the most powerful copy-protection you can - phoning home, disabling suspect keys even at the cost of inconveniencing paying users, etc. etc.

    If you believe the project has long-term possibilities, then you need to start worrying about pissing people off. Don't phone home. Minimal product activation once at installation.

    If you believe the product has world-domination possibilities (i.e., that every product manager or whatever in the world will use it) then remove all copy protection. People pirating your software are part of your market share. Also, consider opening the source in an appropriate manner.

    And if you are asking about 'appropriate' as in ethics, then certainly open-source the app. Note that this does not mean abandoning copy-protection! GPL (even GPL3) apps can have copy protection... it is just possible to remove it. 90% of users won't care about removing it (or know how); 10% of them might. Not a big loss considering the advantages.
  46. I think you should have to by Boomer_Zz · · Score: 1

    Turn to page 46, what is the first letter of the first word in the second paragraph? Bring back photocopying!

    1. Re:I think you should have to by servognome · · Score: 1

      I miss Code-wheels or bad sectors on floppies that made your drive make horrible sounds when you tried to copy.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  47. FLexlm by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Informative

    License management software. Very common.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:FLexlm by simong · · Score: 1

      Common, but an incredible pain in the arse. You need to make a licence server available, make sure it can be seen by all instances of the application, or that different instances are kept in sync, that clients are talking to the right servers... I think Sun have more or less given up on it now for Forte, that or everyone has given up on Forte for gcc. It doesn't work too well at an individual machine level either.

    2. Re:FLexlm by Stele · · Score: 1

      We use RLM, written by the same guys from the original FlexLM. It's cleaner and less expensive, and has internet activation features now.

      http://www.reprisesoftware.com/

    3. Re:FLexlm by Acidangl · · Score: 1

      I hate FLexlm, and completly refuse any software that uses it to be purched in my shop.

      --
      I'm a cucumber
    4. Re:FLexlm by Wolvey · · Score: 1

      1. Very expensive
      2. Standard copy protection software = standard cracks
      3. Not really all that flexible

      We made a home brew solution in just a few weeks that is far more flexible and still supports standalone installs and license servers w/ borrowing for offline use. It has worked great for the last 3 years and saved us over $40k in Macrovision license fees.

  48. Vista "Black Screen of Death" is a hoax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the recent Windows Vista black screen of death, it got me thinking about what sort of measures I should go through to prevent unauthorized users from using the software. I can't believe Slashdot readers continue to believe this hoax.
  49. Too good to be true by fastest+fascist · · Score: 1

    I can just see the grin on the editor's face as they noticed this one...

  50. It is not only india by Dominican+Code+Monke · · Score: 1
    You know guys you are talking about India all this time but have you forgotten that like India other countries (a lot) that have people living the golden dream on a salary that you guys would see as charity.
    • Argentina
    • Chile
    • China
    • Pakistan
    just to name a few. Granted, number one outsourcing is India but by far is not the only one. for companies looking to outsource it the world is their oyster and us is the part that gets thrown away(the shell)
  51. No copy protection is good copy protection by linebackn · · Score: 1

    Since you are talking about corporate software, I don't think any copy restriction measures are needed at all. In fact, make the full uncrippled version downloadable freely for personal/evaluation use. Of course charge $$$ for full licenses and "support". Companies need the ability to evaluate software before buying, do not want to be encumbered by crazy copy restrictions, and they almost alway will pay for the software because they always have to have "support".

    Oracle lets you download much of their software for free for evaluation purposes. And they are doing ok.

    This reminds be of back in the day when ID software made episode one of Doom 1 available as shareware. Where did giving this away get them? At one point, reportedly, Doom was installed on more computers than Microsoft windows! And enough of those people bough the full version that ID was laughing all the way to the bank.

    They didn't learn anything though. I bought Doom III but haven't even played it because it requires the Cd to be in the drive at all times. Complete unusable crap. And I won't buy other games these days because of the stupid stuff game makers think they can get away. Games are supposed to be fun. When they root my system or inconvenience me with restrictions, they are not fun.

  52. There is no spoon by Stumbles · · Score: 1

    and there is no "right amount of copy protection". Its a waste of your time and money to even try and implement it. If someone wants your program bad enough and you have some form of copy protection, they WILL find a way around it. Any argument it is intended to deter the casual user, etc is complete and udder bullshit. So forget about it.

    --
    My karma is not a Chameleon.
  53. Re:As long as it's fully transparent, most don't c by ch0ad · · Score: 1

    Have your software, upon installation, create a keyfile. This file can be saved and, should a reinstall be necessary, be reapplied to the software. That way, you can requrest that your user enters a few key informations about himself upon installation, even a lot, because he will only do it a single time. This keyfile can then be sent to you.
    data protection act would surely prevent this (holding information that you do not need/ is not relevant/ will not be updated)
  54. What to remember by rjwoodhead · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As a veteran of the first copy protection wars, let me give you one simple insight that should guide you:

    "Thieves don't buy"

    Software thieves will not pay for your software, no matter how much you lock it up. If they can't get a cracked copy or code, 99.44% of them won't use it. It doesn't matter if they still live with their parents, or are the CEO of a big company; thieves don't buy.

    Thus, you must tailor your strategy towards supporting your non-thief customers, while minimizing the parasitic cost of the thieves.

    Consider doing this:

    * Require registration for support, not for running the program. If they run an unregistered copy (ie: no serial number), give them full functionality but remind them how to pay on startup, gently. Perhaps do it only when you do the weekly update check, or whatever. Support is your major marginal cost, so you want to try and avoid giving support to the thieves.

    * Phone home to check for updates, but continue to run no matter what. If the phone-home does detect a registration conflict, alert the user ("someone may have stolen your registration number") but continue to run.

    * Explicitly disclose what your phone home does, and allow the user to disable it, or the registration check, if they so desire.

    * Provide a way for your legit users to get logs of the phone-home information. Say their laptop gets stolen; the IP address logged on the phone-home could mean it gets recovered, you're a hero, and have a customer for life. But have strong data privacy rules about the information and how long it gets retained.

    * If you have a product with low/no marginal costs, consider letting your users decide how much to pay you (works best with small ticket items). See http://tipping.selfpromotion.com/ for an essay I wrote on this some years back.

    * Always remember to add the clause to your software license that makes Bill Gates promise to become your towel-boy.

    The easier you make it for your honest users to pay you, and the more helpful you are to them, the more you will be paid.

    --
    "World Domination - a fun, family activity"
  55. There's always a faster gun by bl8n8r · · Score: 1

    The problem with digital media; it's digital and can be reproduced and transferred easily. Non-standard CDROM formats are just as ill fated as the physically damaged floppy sectors of the early 90's. The spell books for entering RPG games were easily xeroxed or scanned, and anyone that can trace a program through softice, or ida, can circumvent dongles and just about anything else. Copy protection is a false sense of security that will cost you a lot of money. There are plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there to sell you neet whizz-bang hardware and software libraries that don't really work like they told you. I read something in a Louis Lamour book once that said "There's always a faster gun" and it's true. You can put all the copy protection you want on something, and there is always someone who can undo it. Don't you think windows, with it's infinite pool of money and software budgets, would have figured something out by now? A lot of people argue M$ hasn't because they want their product plastered all over; pirated or not. I think that's BS. It's a convenient answer for a problematic question.

    --
    boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
  56. Microsoft Project by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never heard of it I see...

  57. The answer is... by Dumbush · · Score: 1

    Short answer: nil
    Long answer: none

  58. How important is your software? by 15Bit · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Any level of copy protection is an inconvenience to the end user:

    1. Install keys are a pain, but we're all used to them now and we accept them. Very few users send the software back or refuse to upgrade just because of install keys.

    2. Phone home activation is a bigger pain. It gives you some control but can cause headaches for the customers IT dept. It can also make cracked versions more appealing, and makes non-internet connected computers impossible to activate. In general though, it is acceptable if its a once only affair. However, regular phone-home checks are more than enough to sway the purchasing decision against your product.

    3. Locally installed license servers can be a pain, but they offer both you and the end user complete control over whats going on. They do represent an initial setup hurdle, but after that they offer considerable flexibility in that the end user can install your software on all the computers on their system and then there is a limit applied on how many clients can run at any one time. Your customer can then buy a small number of licenses and upgrade to more if necessary. Obviously this still needs the customer to have a decent internal network, but not necessarily internet connected, which is an issue in some places.

    4. Hardware dongles are just a menace and a guaranteed way to drive your customers away.

    At the end of the day i think you need to evaluate how important your software is to your customer. If its critical, and they have no alternative, then you have the option of going the Microsoft route and pissing them off as much as you like cos they need you more than you need them. This may come back to bite you in the arse.

    If your software has little or no value to the home user (i.e. they have no use for or it or wouldn't pay for it anyway) then you can probably get away with just a license key activation cos business customers tend to be a little more honest by nature. This also makes your product appealing to small companies cos they can buy one license (so they feel honest) and use it on 3 or 4 computers. This *is* technically "stealing", but you've still sold one more copy than you might have done.

    If you really want to have total control, and you think your customers will accept it, then the license server is a good choice. Your sales people should be able to dress it up as a convenient way for the IT staff to manage their licenses and if some sort of phone home is needed then only one hole needs to be drilled through the firewall. In future revisions you could also expand its role into an update server or something.

    It is possible to do some mix and match. For instance, Intel distribute the free versions of their C++ and Fortran compilers with both a phone home activation code AND a license key file. I find this to be quite convenient (though admittedly it doesn't stop the software being replicated across several machines). You could for instance sell single or double licenses to small companies (in the expectation that they will use it on more than one or two computers) and sell license servers to larger companies (who might be more strict about license accounting). This sort of flexibility (not adopting a one size fits all approach) would reduce the chances alienating whole segments of potential customers.

    So in summary, you are selling a product and that product has to be acceptable to your potential customers. If its not, they won't buy. Consider your target market and implement your controls accordingly. And if you can afford it, don't be afraid to offer flexibility in the licensing systems.

  59. gentle reminders by devonbowen · · Score: 3, Informative

    A while back I wrote an app that was key activated. The key had two components. The first was the name of the person that it was sold to (from the credit card) and the other was a hash of that name, the version number, etc. The user needed to enter both in order for it to work. (And the two needed to match, of course.) My thinking was that using the name in plain text would make it personal and encourage the user to not give it away while still allowing them to do what they thought was reasonable (running on both a laptop and desktop, for example). Basically, a gentle reminder to help honest people stay honest. The dishonest people are just going to hack your binaries anyway.

    Devon

    1. Re:gentle reminders by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      A variation on this which I suggested once was a license code which would brand the software w/ the name and credit card number used to purchase the software --- inform customers of this up-front and tell them to protect the license code as they would their credit card.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    2. Re:gentle reminders by Ynot_82 · · Score: 1

      "brand the software w/ the name and credit card number used to purchase the software"

      Using the credit card info would be very foolish, for obvious reasons...

      but simply branding the firms name would probably be enough to discourage casual copying
      No firm wants the embarrassment of being linked with piracy

      If the purchasing company's name can be derived from the key, then any copied keys would brand the copy as belonging to the same firm

  60. Delete customers documents when validation fails! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah that's what I said buddy! I mean if you are going to protect your software by phoning home, requiring online activation or disabling license keys, you might are well go all the way and completely screw over those pesky paying customers! That'll learn 'em! Muhahaha! :-/

  61. Camorra Hit Team, DIY Sniping/booby-trapping by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    I've heard a Camorra Hit Team is quite effective. Have the software phone home the IP, track down it's position with Google Maps and some IP-to-map service and fork off some of your revenue to pay the mob to take the licence offender out. Your local Camorra Joint might even offer a subsciption which could come you cheaper if there's a lot of rippers distributing you software.
    Maybe you want to try it yourself. The Steyr AUG Sniper Rifles are good for this sort of job, but you can resort to a bomb under the carhood if target is active only outside workhours (which hackers and crackers often are). Good Luck. ...

    Jokes aside: Honesty, Fair Pricing, Good Service, Licence Key Generated from licencee name, no phoning home, Website to refetch the key if the customer looses it/can't find it/is to lazy to look for it. As a rule of thumb you can say it should be easier to refetch the key from the web/email than to open the drawer and rumage out the booklet where the licence key is written down. If you follow these simple rules it's likely you'll have the lowest possible piracy ratio.

    My 2 cents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  62. Seattle City Light by Qrlx · · Score: 1

    I have no idea how, when I hit Ctrl-V, "Seattle City Light" came up as the subject of this post, but:

    Your corporate customers will, on the whole, pay for your software.

    You're wasting your time coding vs. the miscreants, why are people so perpetually clueless about this?

  63. "tons" of money on service contracts? Not quite. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I beg to differ. Your time is a finite resource; it does not scale. You take a successful grass-roots open source project and the only hope in Hell you have in making money is attracting some investors, hopefully enough in the first round or two to build up that support business, if it exists. Niche home application? No big support contracts for you.

      Until then, you're going to be holding down a day job, a family, and supporting your project at night, goading your users for PayPal donations to pay for new features.
    Thankfully, most of the great open source projects were never created with "tons of money" in mind, or they would've been jettisoned a long time ago.

  64. Re:As long as it's fully transparent, most don't c by brown-eyed+slug · · Score: 1

    If the personal information was just used to generate a hash sum then you wouldn't need to worry about data protection, but I'm still not convinced that the solution is a good one.

  65. Keep it simple by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    Most people are going to be reasonably honest but a little bit lazy. They'll copy it without really thinking about it so you need to prevent this behaviour. Very few people are going to go to extreme lengths to hack your copy protection out, and there's no stopping those that are so you'll just have to tolerate this.

    I'd suggest going for a simple registration key system. Installation produces a random number and this is used to generate a key for the specific installation. Don't require the software to phone home. Way too much hassle dealing with use-cases (what do you do with unreliable network connections? Can you be sure your servers will always be available? What if your company is firewalled or your IP address changes?).

  66. Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    how can my licensing mechanism best help legitimate customers track their licenses and stay compliant within the licensing agreement

    A much better question is, how can we maximize the rewards to our paying customers for providing us with the income we need to pursue our chosen path of software development?

    The answers are:

    • Provide them with a software key that is uniquely theirs so they have the means to protect their investment in us, not so we can attack them.
    • Archive that software key so we can give it to them again if they lose it.
    • Never, ever disable, restrict, or otherwise cripple a customer's product.
    • Provide a means so they can legitimately share our software so as to spread the word.
    • Price software reasonably; if the market is large, price low. If small, price higher.
    • Be valuable: Provide strong functionality. Remain valuable: Fix it, improve it, be helpful.
    • If someone wants a key and can't pay for it or wants to look before they leap, just give them one. Really. Doesn't hurt a thing. People who won't or can't pay aren't going to anyway. Better they use our stuff than our competitor's; better to make them happy than annoy them; better to see to it there's no value to an underground trade, because hacked software presents a security risk to us all.
    • Last, but not least, don't burden our customers with "agreements" or "licenses." We wrote stuff, they paid for it. Done deal. Now it's up to us to add value to the product so they'll continue to boost our positions by using our support; spreading the word, the demo, the results.

    You know the people who will insist on paying you when you mom their lawn, carry groceries, etc.? Those are the socialized, economically stable majority. They'll pay for good stuff as long as you price it sensibly and shovel value at them like it is going out of style (it actually seems to be in some cases, so use that instead of being part of it.) There is simply no need to go to war with everyone else - be a leg up instead of an obstacle to overcome.

    I've done extremely well using this approach, as have my loyal employees. The only thing I would raise a flag about is you actually have to have something worthwhile; if you hand customers (and non-customers) bloated, cpu-hogging bugware, no amount of good will can counter the negative effects of the software itself.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I assure you I actually meant to write "mow their lawn", not "mom their lawn". :-)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by inflex · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, that pretty much summed up everything I could have said. The first few times I encountered people who insisted they paid 100% price for each and every licence completely shocked me - of course, that was a long time ago and I'm more than happy to have them roll up for more sales :D

      Well done.

    3. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Price software reasonably; if the market is large, price low. If small, price higher.

      How about you price it based on it's value, not the size of the market? Just because the market is small, that does not make your software more valuable. Just because the market is small, it doesn't mean you should try to gouge your customers. It only takes one good competitor to destroy you. I would say, "Price software reasonably and competitively regardless of market size". Get rich by making and selling a good product to lots of people, not by trying to gouge in a small market. If the market is too small to be profitable with your product, you need to rethink your business strategy and expand into other markets.

    4. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by jak10900 · · Score: 1

      A much better question is, how can we maximize the rewards to our paying customers for providing us with the income we need to pursue our chosen path of software development?

      Someone get this man a cookie... that's the best philosophy I've heard in years.

    5. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the advice, really level headed thinking.

    6. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by knewter · · Score: 1

      I find this silly. He should price the software based on whatever he feels like. The market will respond. I've written a piece of software that provides a service to a niche group. It's not inherently 'nicer' software than other services I've written that come at a lower price, but there's a fixed cost associated with developing it (not just 'how much can I live off of?,' but 'how much profit am I willing to make this software for?'). If both pieces of software cost $n to make, and the size of market 2 is twice that of market 1, under my pricing scheme it's clear that the software should cost twice as much for market 1. Of course, if they don't want it at that price then market research before development should've suggested that the market doesn't want the software enough to justify making it.

      --
      -knewter
    7. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      Of course, if they don't want it at that price then market research before development should've suggested that the market doesn't want the software enough to justify making it.

      This is my point exactly. The market itself will decide whether your price is right, not the size of the market. If the market is 5 people and they are willing to pay $5 for your software, or if the market is 5000 people and they are willing to pay $5 for your software, in both cases your software is worth exactly $5 and that's what you should charge (or less), regardless of how much you spent to develop it. The size of the market doesn't matter, it's what that market will bear. If you charge $10 for your software, regardless of market size, someone else will charge $5 and kill you. Like you said, though, proper market research should put you on the right track from the get-go in terms of balancing costs and price. I would say basing the price on "whatever he feels like" would be what's silly.

    8. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by VanessaE · · Score: 1

      The only thing I would raise a flag about is you actually have to have something worthwhile; if you hand customers (and non-customers) bloated, cpu-hogging bugware, no amount of good will can counter the negative effects of the software itself.


      Shhh... Don't let Microsoft hear you say that, next thing you know they'll actually release something trustworthy!

    9. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by swillden · · Score: 1

      How about you price it based on it's value, not the size of the market?

      LOL. "Value-pricing" is all the rage in enterprise-level software, and it means something very different from what you're talking about. It means "Avoid publishing a fixed pricing model so that you can charge each customer just as much as they're willing to pay, plus a little".

      Just because the market is small, that does not make your software more valuable.

      No, but a small market means prices have to be higher to recoup development costs and make any profit.

      Get rich by making and selling a good product to lots of people, not by trying to gouge in a small market. If the market is too small to be profitable with your product, you need to rethink your business strategy and expand into other markets.

      So your advice is to leave small markets unserved? Those markets would prefer to pay more and have something rather than simply doing without. There's good money to be made in serving small niches, and while you might think the prices are exorbitant as compared with mass market software, everyone involved is quite happy with the situation and they don't care what you think.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    10. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by E++99 · · Score: 1

      Price software reasonably; if the market is large, price low. If small, price higher.


      How about you price it based on it's value, not the size of the market?


      Same thing. Value of software = price of software * paying users.

      If the value of the software is a million bucks you can either have one customer who pays a million bucks, or a hundred thousand customers who pay $10.
    11. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by MontyApollo · · Score: 1

      Last, but not least, don't burden our customers with "agreements" or "licenses." We wrote stuff, they paid for it. Done deal.

      It depends on the situation, but it is always good to have something signed on paper. I had a guy sue me claiming that he owned the copyright to a software package that I had licensed to him 3 years earlier because I later did some part-time work for him. Even though it was three years later he claimed that it was written as part of my duties as an employee. He even sued my other clients claiming he was entitled to their profits. It didn't matter how weak his position was, he was willing to spend a few hundred thousand trying to bully everybody. You can only keep paying $20K in legal fees every month for so long.

      Lawsuits are disasters, even if your position is strong; a judge is usually willing to give a guy his day in court. You usually end up paying off the aggressor before trial, and you have to eat your own lawyer fees. If you have a signed piece of paper, you have a much better chance of moving for summary judgment, recovering legal fees, and maybe heading off the whole situation to begin with.

    12. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by iqeaten · · Score: 1

      How about this: make software an investment, like office furniture or heavy machinery. Offer users a way to get a (depreciated) refund on their license if they decide to stop using the software. By doing this, you are artificially creating a second-hand market where users can sell their licenses. Make it *really* easy for users to cash in their used licenses after they are done with the software. So they can actually count the license that they purchase as an 'asset'. If they loan out their software to someone else, they're basically giving away an asset. Because if the person who pirates the software decides to cash in on the refund, the person who is sharing the license is throwing away his own asset. It's just that people who buy software nowadays don't see it as an asset, like they would a washing machine -- they see it as paying the guy who delivers it, and paying the guy who services it.

    13. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by knewter · · Score: 1

      The price must be right, given the SIZE of the market. If I'm a horse proctologist and I reallllly need a piece of software with the same costs-of-development as a similarly-complex project that car salesmen need, the price of EquineProctoLive MUST be higher per instance to recoup the actual costs. My point is the value (or at least justifiable price) of a software to the members of the market might be inversely proportional to the size of the market itself, if the software is truly needed.

      Sometimes no one will come along and charge $5 and kill you, because some markets fall under the radar. Those are still hella profitable.

      --
      -knewter
    14. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I had a guy sue me claiming that he owned the copyright to a software package that I had licensed to him 3 years earlier because I later did some part-time work for him.

      Why did you have him do that?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    15. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by MontyApollo · · Score: 1

      I had a guy who did sue ... (though that sentence probably needs more work than just this)

    16. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by pclminion · · Score: 1

      I would say, "Attempt to maximize my profit." Let's be real here. This is business, not a conference with RMS as keynote speaker. The goal, obviously, is to make truckloads of money, not "offer value" or "act competitively." These are merely CONSEQUENCES of the quest for money. So you price your product so as to maximize this profit. Sometimes this price is high, sometimes low.

      It's hard to apply basic supply-and-demand thinking to these problems because with software there is really no "supply" problem. A company can't "run out of copies" to sell. Therefore, price must be based entirely on demand. It would be insane not to set a price which maximizes profit. The GP was simply pointing out that in general, this "maximum point" is reached at higher prices when the number of sales is low, and lower prices when the number of sales is high. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.

    17. Re:Speaking as a very successful vendor: None. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thankyou sir. I'm saving your reply. You're exactly right.

  67. Not enough information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What type of software is it?
    Who are the typical users?
    How much money is charged for this software, if any?
    How widespread is the user community that will really get any value from it?

    Ok, if you have the latest - gee wiz movie collection manager, a simple license key, if any protection is used at all, should suffice.

    If you have the next Oracle DBMS system - who doesn't have any license protection BTW - then perhaps a network-based license server should be employed. Be careful about expecting the software to be able to "check in" with your license server. That shouldn't work inside most corporate environments.

    And finally, I'd wait until piracy actually becomes an issue before adding license key overhead.

    For example, I worked in a small company writing client server software to help manage parts and supplier selection for engineers based on price and the capabilities of each component. We didn't have any license management or protection for a few years. Most companies that bought our product really wanted a license server to help them ensure they were completely legal and following the terms of our agreements. They really did. Then there was a company in Japan that was different. They had purchased 50 licenses, but had installed the software on over 5,000 computers. Our license was by concurrent user, so this could be completely legal. I implemented a commercial network license manager and we deployed it with a major release. Included in that deployment were usage graphs that anyone could use AND we included the manuals for the key server in whatever language the software was included. All license-based error messages were carefully crafted to explain exactly what the issue was and we deployed redundant, voting license servers. Only this Japanese company had any issues with the license servers - and only they actually tested our software for Y2K compliance out of 200 customers (isn't that scary!!!!). I know because changing the date drastically on a computer system was considered an attack against the license key servers and it would stop issuing keys.

    Anyway, it seemed most than 3x the licensed users were using our product ... or about $8M in license fees. That's a bunch of mortgage payments, if you ask me.

  68. Some advice by skeptobot · · Score: 1

    >> I'm currently working on a piece of commercial software that will be available through a download and will use a license key to activate it. The last thing anybody needs during a busy project is a scheduler that can't be reinstalled because the email with the license key has been lost or the activation part of the software craps up. >> The software is aimed at helping people schedule projects and will be targeted mostly to corporate users. Don't make assumptions about who might use your software in what setting. Your customer may be a project engineer or construction manager who uses your software in the field on a laptop and can't get to a useable internet connection or call IT support staff when the license activation craps up. >> With the recent Windows Vista black screen of death, it got me thinking about what sort of measures I should go through to prevent unauthorized users from using the software. Microsoft is the last company you should emulate if you want good long-term relations with the end-user. Their reputation as a company has gone down the toilet with the "activate me", "gotta check if I'm genuine" nonsense they are piling into their software. >> How much copy protection is appropriate? Is it acceptable for the software to phone home? If so, what data is appropriate to report on? Would you use a project management software that transmits unknown quantities of data over the web on a serious project? A lot of people wouldn't.

  69. Odd place to ask about this by Robotech_Master · · Score: 1

    I mean, really.

    When you ask this sort of question on Slashdot, do you honestly expect to receive any answer other than "none at all"?

    --
    Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  70. Sometimes less is more by bhmit1 · · Score: 1

    IBM flat out removed license keys from some of their software. It was used by big businesses, everyone that needed it had a key already, and it made it easier for people to setup labs and learn the software so they would want to use it. Of course, their software is big enough and visible enough that the risk of someone reporting a pirate install is too high for most. And they make sure to get paid well for support. In the end, they simply looked at their customer and realized that stopping pirates does more harm to their business than good.

    When you get into the personal market, that model changes. But since you are targeting businesses, the most I would do is call home from time to time to let you know where your software is being used, but not to disable it. Then you just use places with an unusually large number of machines reporting back as an opportunity for a sales call to help them get in compliance. Tie the call home in with an update notification service, and most businesses won't have a problem with the connection.

  71. Deployment by OrangeSpyderMan · · Score: 1

    Remember also if your targeting business and a client deployment is required, many will want this to be feasible automatically, and that means no manual activation (e.g. using a licence server which handles site licences, or just using trust).

    In many corporations requiring individual serials or activation per client will get your product bad marks in the evaluation.

    --
    Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
  72. Really simple by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

    If you plan on using the "pay me after I release the software" business model, the solution is simple. Write quality software, that is abundantly useful, and provide shit all no service to unlicensed users. If people really need your software and need help they'll pay for it.

    That being said, a simple one-time CD key entry combined with online activation is probably enough to stop most casual pirates. Doesn't have to WGA style, just a simple one-time "is this key taken" check.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  73. simple, no hassle software protection 100% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just run it as a web service. no software to install, no worries about piracy.

  74. The number of illegal copies isn't important by tomrud · · Score: 1

    Remember that it isn't important how many pirated copies it's out there. It's just your sales that count.
    Selling 40,000 with 1,000,000 pirated copies is better than selling 35,000 with 1,000 pirated.
    Make copy protection as simple as possible. Make it also as easy as possible to administrate for your customer base (as have been pointed out above).

    --
    For a nice date: Call strftime(3C)!
  75. just a label by i_b_don · · Score: 1

    which reads "please do not copy this software/movie/music"

    d

    --
    all language nazi's will burne in heil!
  76. That trick never works. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, by way of example, I wrote an un-copy-protected software package and released it as "guiltware" - I asked them to click on the paypal link and make a donation to MDA through me. 5 years on, I know people are still using it because I get help requests.

    But not one person ever, ever, ever clicked the link.

    1. Re:That trick never works. by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 1

      In contrast I've paid for software once it became freeware as opposed to shareware.

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    2. Re:That trick never works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll second that - I have some software I've bought because I really liked it, and because of the great support and great way I was treated, I've continued to pay for upgrades even though I hardly ever use it any more.

      I also bought a program from another vendor, then bought two other variations of it (these are DBs for DVDs, CDs and Books), even though one has never been used (haven't got around to using the CD database yet).

      Ok, I'm weird, but there are a FEW of us who will pay you.

      Captcha is "misuse"! Too funny...

    3. Re:That trick never works. by Judebert · · Score: 1

      I've done the same sort of thing with my GPL Palm software, Contraction Timer. It isn't nagware or anything, but there's a request for donations in the About box.

      I've made a little bit of money from it, mostly when I first released it, but an occasional trickle even today. Not enough to pay my bandwidth bills, but enough to get a few DVDs. Perhaps it just depends on your audience: maybe parents or pregnant people are more generous or honest than others.

      Of course, I quickly gained a commercial competitor who released a crippled demo. His program was originally $20, but he dropped it to $10. Perhaps Contraction Timer was stealing his business. But I'm always bitterly suspicious that he made a lot more money than I did.

      --

      For geek dads: Contraction Timer

    4. Re:That trick never works. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've done the same sort of thing with my GPL Palm software, Contraction Timer.

      Whoa, hey, back up. Contraction Timer?

      Husband: Honey, can you just hold it a second longer?
      Wife: STOP PLAYING WITH THAT $#!$(@)#$! PALM AND GET YOUR ASS IN THE CAR!
      Husband: But I almost have it uploaded!
      Wife: You have no chance to survive make your time.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:That trick never works. by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      From my experience:

      Kid one

      Scream, time ... scream, time ... scream, time "Honey, you're going through false labor. Can I get you something to ease the pain?"

      Kid two

      Scream, time ... scream, time ... scream, time ... scream, snore ... scream, snore ...

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    6. Re:That trick never works. by pclminion · · Score: 1

      I've done the same sort of thing with my GPL Palm software, Contraction Timer. It isn't nagware or anything, but there's a request for donations in the About box.

      There's no harm in asking. But really... Why would a person pay for a piece of software that they will probably use ONCE? My wife used a web-based contraction timer when she went into labor. It never would have occurred to me that there are for-pay products out there that do that.

      This is not a dig on you or your software at all, btw.

    7. Re:That trick never works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've done the same sort of thing with my GPL Palm software, Contraction Timer. It isn't nagware or anything

      ALERT: You have been using this product longer than the 30 day limit. You MAY want to consider having a C-section at this point.

    8. Re:That trick never works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had registered a palm conctraction timer a few years back, and my wife broke her water without going in to labor, so we had to go in and get induced. So I never got to use the timer.

    9. Re:That trick never works. by Judebert · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's usable a lot more than once. (Besides the edge case where people have multiple kids.)

      Not only can Contraction Timer be used for actual labor, it's useful for detecting Braxton-Hicks contractions (sometimes called "false labor"), timing kicks (10 kicks in an hour is a measurement indicating a healthy child), and keeps a record of significant events (so you can brag to/pester your kids later).

      And you don't need to be somewhere that has web access, nor do you need to carry your laptop around. You just use the PDA that you probably carry all the time anyway.

      Finally, several people are willing to pay for these conveniences, even if they only use them once. Or not at all. It's nice to know something is around to make labor coaching easier.

      --

      For geek dads: Contraction Timer

    10. Re:That trick never works. by Judebert · · Score: 1

      From experience, I can tell you that the third kid has even more snoring. :)

      There wasn't quite so much screaming at my children's births. Lots of grunting and gasping. I can personally attest that using a program on my PDA made it possible for me to pay more attention to my wife. She appreciated it.

      --

      For geek dads: Contraction Timer

  77. Central licenses like FlexLM by j_sp_r · · Score: 0

    You can do something like the big scientific programs do. You have a flexLM license server running on a server (the computer the software is installed on), for 100 concurrent users for example. A business can have as many installs as they like, but only use 100 copies a the same time. You can "lease" a license for a while if you like (laptop) if the server is configured to allow that. This is beneficial for the business because they never need more licenses then that are used (for example, shifts with different computers), but never exceed them (legal problems!).

  78. Case Study. by bronney · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am not as knowledgeable as most replies here but I can tell you which software I bought and which I didn't. Maybe it'll give some insights.

    ===

    1. Fraps. Bought.

    Copy protection: reg key

    Tried the trial version many years ago, cool to record your games, not much games needed recording, and youtube wasn't out. Forgot about it. Later when youtube hits the web, there're some stuff I wanna post up. Insta thought of fraps. Googled it, wow this guy's still at it! I can easily crack it, but bought it instead because it's "worth" it and the dude is still working hard on it. Lifetime upgrade, smooth running program. Would I've bought it if it was $3449 usd? Probably not. Even if fraps didn't require a reg key, I would donate to it. Why? It does what it says it does, and it does it in a quick, smooth, no BS way.

    2. Steam. Bought.

    Copy protection: online registration (MMO account style), clean, works instantly after format, no backups necessary

    When I felt like playing CS again, it installs steam by default. Thought nothing of it. Later when HL2 came out, pirated, played first map, blew me away. I emailed dev and asked if they will earn more money if I buy it off steam or the box. The answer is "same". But I skip the publisher anyway and bought off steam while I already had a copy in my hdd. The game was so good I didn't mind the $50 to show props. Again, smooth running, works as advertised. Doesn't cost $4k.

    3. Famous photo editing software. Pirated.

    Copy protection: activation key

    Can't afford, but need to use. New version every year (not sure, maybe 2 years). With newer version files non-importable back to older version without losing some data. Cannot afford every new version upgrade price. Would I pay for it if it were the same price of a PC game? Definately. Would I pay for it if it were the same price range as some less reputable photo software? Yes. Would I pay for Winning Eleven 8, 9, 10, 10 Evolution every year just cuz the jerseys changed? No.

    4. Famous OS. Pirated.

    Copy protection: activation key

    Can afford, however doesn't always do as advertised. Requires tremendous attention and work to make it work smoothly. Makes me nervous when people need to use my computer as little voice says they will screw it up and it'll cost you another 3 hours of my finite life. Not sure if I will get MORE support by paying for it. Worst, not sure if MORE support will make this experience "better".

    ===

    I guess what I am trying to show is, and my general direction towards CP is that the the best CP is no CP. Instead, make something that is truly fun, good, happy, addictive, smooth, sexy, that people want to pay for it. Your software might not be at the Ferrari level, but at least make it so that people feel like pirating a Mercedes is teh ghey. Pirating a Hyundai is less so, you agree? It doesn't have to be cheap, look at Smart car. Nice, cute. But if you see a pirated Volkswagen beetle, you'd immediately think it's ghey. Pirating ipod? Ew. Pirating a famous memory makers' mp3 player? Sure.

    I generally agree with the fraps direction. Pay once, use it for life. Lifetime upgrade, lifetime URL to download the upgraded version, quick, fast, and malware free. Pirate it? you gotto search for the seeds every single time, read comments, and virus scan it every time buddy.

  79. Site license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think bigger. Look at the size of their company and just sell them a bulk site license. Don't bother counting the licenses on a per machine basis. Likely at most a fixed percentage of the people would be using it. Renew the license once a year or whenever and charge based on size of the company.

    1. Re:Site license by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      This makes sense for non-specialist products, but not for specialist products.

      Let's assume we have a very complicated piece of software that is used by few people (e.G. CAD or something like that). In that case, Site licenses don't make much sense.

      Of course, from a technical standpoint, site licenses are cool because you won't have troubles with anything - no license server, no activation, no hassle.

  80. Ideal copy protection by eknagy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The answer is, as for any good questions: depends.

    A few rules what not to do:
    A) "Phoning home required" and "online registration required" means "won't use this".
    B) Crippling unregistered versions is a bad idea for business software - they need to spend more on IT support.
    C) Time-limiting your software is a no-go - the limit will be exceeded in the middle of an important meeting/negotiation, and your software will be eradicated in two days.
    D) No matter what you add, pirates can remove it, but legitimate users will suffer.
    E) Never take your client's data as ransom - you will lose your customers if you do (in this particular case, a read-only access for unregistered clients could be acceptable).

    A few rules what to do:
    A) Printing nice license certificates will get you more money from typical business users.
    B) "Phoning home for updates if accepted by user" and "online updates are available only for registered instances, offline updates are available only for registered cusmtomers" is OK - they feel they get support.
    C) Giving volume licenses will save some headache for Business and for you (if they need 7 license, they will likely to buy a 10-pack for a price of 8 licenses).
    D) Offer site licenses based on the size of the company, if they ask you about the price/discount - that way, your software has a chance to become "the internal standard".
    D) Unique ID is a good idea, as long as it is visible to the user and the software is working even if not capable to phone home (a red "unregistered" label is a good reminder for legitimate users).
    E) If you add time-locked registration codes, you should make it possible to load multiple codes and continue if at least one of them is valid.
    F) Consider building customised instances for them - like embedding a background image of "Licensed to company X, for 10 seats".
    G) Offer them absolutely copy-protection free versions for double-price.
    H) An automated version check in the background (no serial, just checks an txt file via http) will give you some info if you have access to the web server logs and will be considered as a feature.

  81. I'm late, I'm late by Solra+Bizna · · Score: 1

    People who would pirate your software will do so anyway. Rather than being deterred by copy protection, they will simply be annoyed that your software doesn't allow them to pirate it without a fight.

    People who buy your software will also be annoyed if your copy protection gets in their way in the slightest.

    Copy protection seems to be lose-lose. If only people in general were honorable enough not to pirate software...

    -:sigma.SB

    --
    WARN
    THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM
  82. Businesses are the BIGGEST pirates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Game companies will have one legit copy of 3DS Max. And twenty copies of a japanese-sourced cracked version.

    Then whinge when people crack their SecurROM protection on their games...

  83. Wheee, my first slashdot article! by WPIDalamar · · Score: 3, Informative

    Thanks for all the comments everyone. I've been reading through them and have some ideas. Here's a scheme I had been considered that might address some of the concerns brought up.

    1) Upon purchase, user gets a license key.
    2) When installing, the software generates a random (somewhat) unique installation id
    3) The license key is checked locally, with no net connection required.
    3) Upon app startup, if there's an internet connection, the software phones home with the software version, the license key, and the installation ID
            The phone-home also gives a version-check to let the user know about any updates.
    4) We log the license key and installation ID

    Someday, we do some data analysis and find any license keys with a large number (maybe 5, maybe dozens, not sure) of installation ID's. The data analysis should look for interwoven log records of installation ID, because the user might have uninstalled it on one machine, and installed it on another. Then a person (not automated process) would get a report and be able to investigate and flag certain keys as compromised.

    What happens next?

    Do we cause the software to stop functioning? (I don't like that)
    Do we cause the web service-portion to stop functioning? (I don't like that either)
    Do we pop up a window saying, "SOFTWARE PIRACY DETECTED!! YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL IF YOU DON'T STOP!"
    Do we pop up a window saying, "Hey, this might be pirated. Go to http://xxxxx/ to purchase additional copies"
    Maybe the software does nothing, and we deal with it through customer support. A friendly email to the original purchase agent?

    I guess the goal is make honest people stay honest. As many have pointed out, it will be impossible to prevent someone who REALLY wants to pirate the software.

    1. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      Great, two #3's, there's gonna be 50 comments about that now...

    2. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ideas though seem to help presume guilt, something I would definately find insulting as hell.

    3. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by mlk · · Score: 1

      Maybe the software does nothing, and we deal with it through customer support. A friendly email to the original purchase agent? I'd go with this one I think.
      --
      Wow, I should not post when knackered.
    4. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      I certainly like it the best for the smaller infractions. Someone bought 10 copies, and they're using 12, or 15 or even 20.

      Maybe the nag-screen version would be ok for a key that's WAY over? Someone bought 10, 150 are being used. Because in that case, it's likely that the key was just posted publically somewhere.

    5. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      Someone suggested:

      >> B) "Phoning home for updates if accepted by user"

      That sounds like a good idea, yes?

      Means a "pirate" can avoid detection by simply turning off updates. But an accidental license breach would likely have left it on and see the problem?

      p.s. Yes, I was the article author.

    6. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by sacrilicious · · Score: 1
      Do we pop up a window saying, "SOFTWARE PIRACY DETECTED!! YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL IF YOU DON'T STOP!"

      fyi, this option will motivate people to take up the challenge. They'll make it their mission to crack the software and distribute the crack as widely as possible, just out of principle.

      --
      - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
    7. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      Talk to you sales people first. They might decide to let a given account slide, just so they'll be able to sell version 1.1 or a completely new product that works with the old one.

      Even a friendly reminder could make life difficult in the future for your sales people.

      I work for a company that pays 90K a year for support for a product that is licenced on 7 machines for 5000 people. When we install it on a test server preparing for an upgrade, or the 5001th person uses the software, the company that sells that software doesn't care, because their sales people are always trying to make the next sale.

      The problem is that *any* contact with the customer that might seem negative might get the accounting people looking into whether they really need the product at all, or whether a competitor's product might do the same job for less.

      The sales folks are generally not very honest themselves. They have zero interest in keeping the clients honest, as long as they can extract the maximum amount of money from them. Ask yourself, do you want honest customers or high paying customers? The two might be mutually exclusive.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    8. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by MartinG · · Score: 1

      Honest people are already honest, and it's not your business to keep them so. That's what the law is for.

      Thanks for your URL though. I'll add it to the "never buy from these guys" list.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    9. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by bj+bignell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What happens next? Nothing. Don't disable the software, don't handicap the software, and for chrissakes don't you dare email me to tell me I'm pirating your software. Even if it's true, I don't want to hear it and I sure as hell will not do anything about it.

      What might be appropriate is a simple email once every six months thanking each customer for their purchase of X number of licenses, and asking them to please get in touch if they have any questions at all. Make sure to prominently display the emails and phone numbers for sales and support. If you suspect someone might be pirating your software in a big way, include a special one-time offer to expand their licenses and/or support for a very good price. But don't suggest that they're pirating; it will be viewed as insulting and invasive even if it's true.

    10. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by demi · · Score: 1

      The question is, who cares about your software? You're trying to enter a space with well-established mature standard solutions already in place. I can't run your thing on free platforms, any form of software-enforced licensing invites downtime for no legitimate reason, and if I wanted those restrictions I'd already be using MS Project and Outlook.

      The idea that your software would somehow be so in-demand that people would be copying it everywhere is a fantasy. You should love to have that "problem." The problem you'll face in entering a market is that no one will want to use your software, licensing or no. You're discovering that there are no good options for being in the business of selling retail desktop software--essentially, either you are Microsoft, or this is a bad business to be in. You need to be in a somewhat different business (perhaps involving this software you're talking about); this isn't really a question of what licensing restrictions are appropriate.

      If you're going to go the proprietary software route, follow the model of Oracle and allow administrators at your customer companies to set the license restrictions in accordance with whatever they bought from you. Write your license to reserve the right to audit for compliance, but the software itself should do nothing. No license keys, no phoning home, no downtime because of your artificial decreases in the quality of your product. You should be doing nothing to discourage adoption of your software within a company or without.

      It's true that not having these restrictions may mean you get paid less. If you put a bunch of restrictions in, you're making it more likely you won't get paid at all.

      --
      demi
    11. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      Someday, we do some data analysis and find any license keys with a large number (maybe 5, maybe dozens, not sure) of installation ID's. The data analysis should look for interwoven log records of installation ID, because the user might have uninstalled it on one machine, and installed it on another. Then a person (not automated process) would get a report and be able to investigate and flag certain keys as compromised.


      This is a flawed metric. You presume that pirates will distribute leaked/cracked keys - they will not. More likely, they will distribute a key generator, reverse engineered from your key verification code. It will most likely be identical to the one you use internally.

      Activation doesn't work. Dongles don't work. You cannot stop or even really slow the pirates. The more you add, the more of a challenge it becomes to the crackers, and the more "cred" they will get by cracking it. These people are really good with a disassembler. Code obfuscation doesn't even slow them down - they're used to it.

      The more you add, the more incentive there will be to pirate your software.

      Use a product key. Let the user copy/paste it in (e.g. don't use separate text boxes for the different parts of the key).

      Don't tie the software to the machine. It will create a support nightmare as users upgrade their PC/reinstall/buy a new PC and are unable to use your software.

      Consider offering very cheap multi-license packs. For example, 1 for $99, 2 for $139, 3 for $169. This will discourage (some) users from multi-installing and will probably net you additional sales as users "pool" together to buy your software.

      Store the user's info (name, address, last 4 digits of CC number) along with the user's key in a database. Remind the user when they obtain the key that they should not distribute the key, and that distributing the key may result in it being blacklisted in future versions (with no refund). Check warez sites frequently for leaked keys. Blacklist the ones that you find.

      Your objective with the key & blacklist is twofold:
      - Prevent casual (users who do not normally pirate) users from using your software without paying.
      - Force users who pirate to download and execute a keygen.

      Don't bother trying to go after websites that post keys. You will only further the distribution of the key. Disable it (silently) in a point release, and don't offer the old release for download. This will make it more difficult for users to find a version of your software to work with their leaked key.

      You cannot stop software piracy. The best you can do is to keep honest users honest, and not piss them off in the process.
    12. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From reading all the posts here, there is one thing that is very obvious - there is no one solution that will fit all. You will need several solutions - a dongle for those in the super secret controlled environment, a local server for the nothing can phone out of the corporate firewall crowd, and a phone home at install for the rest.

    13. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by paj1234 · · Score: 1

      Dude, the corporate IT departments are on your side. In my experience, the top three favourite IT department activities are:

      1. Searching company PCs for unlicenced software. It makes the IT dept feel important.
      2. Collecting reassuring official-looking licence documents that show the corporation has bought licences for X copies of Y product.
      3. Compiling spreadsheets that show the number of software licences purchased versus the number of installed copies.

      So dude, don't get in their way, don't give them unpleasant jobs to do, let them concentrate on what they enjoy and they will love you.

    14. Re:Wheee, my first slashdot article! by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      I guess the goal is make honest people stay honest. Ah, I think I've found the problem.

      Is that really your goal? Does your boss know and agree with that?
      It seems like an oddly high-minded thing for a business to be doing.

      All the businesses I'm aware of have only one goal and that is to make more money.
      The question you should be asking yourself is will this course of action put more money in our pockets or not?
      If there is not a significant likelihood or guarantee of more money at the end of the day then you are wasting your time.
  84. Aforementioned NFO by SoloFlyer2 · · Score: 1

    This the the Relevant Section of the NFO Mentioned by the parent
    --
              H2O does it again.........!!!

              Although everybody thought that Syncrosoft and Steinberg had found the
              ultimate protection, we prove otherwise.

              We admit that it's getting harder and harder to do and this one may
              possibly be the last one we do.

              Due to the complex nature of the protection we thought of approaching
              it from another direction.

              The Emulation is now done on driver-level, which means that the Emu
              essentially mimics a dongle, look in the License Control Center to
              view the applications the Emu supports. By writing the Emu at driver
              -level we probably went beyond cracking an application. The amount of
              effort invested in this project is staggering , estimated at over 1500
              manhours during cracking, developing & testing, and probably will
              never be done again.

              We hope u enjoy this release and the motto "if u use it alot then buy
              it!" applies

              PS1

              Note to protection coders :

              Unbelievable way you transform an application. We estimate that
              between 30% & 40% of the application are wrapped in the script
              protection. Protection is one thing but this surely effects an
              application performance. You probably could get a performance gain of
              50% without the protection!!

              Think about this : Once broken, the protection is , what ????

    --
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own" - Adam Savage
  85. Speaking as an IT Director by weave · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Some tidbits... my personal opinions, not necessarily those of my employer.
    1. When evaluating software, if all things are equal between software products being evaluated, the one with the least or no copy protection always wins out.
    2. If a product requires a dongle, either on a client or server, unless my back is up against the wall from users and there's no other product to meet the need, it always gets rejected.
    3. A product requiring a license server is tolerable in some cases, but see #1 and #2. There's also the issue of disconnected laptop users to address.
    4. A product requiring a unique product key is a royal PITA for multiple automated deployments. This means while we might buy n number of copies and install n number of copies, each copy is going to end up with the same product key via ghost image or scripted install. Would you shut us down even though we have purchase enough copies?
    5. Activation during install is OK if it can be automated during an install or first run (and if the latter, doesn't require admin or power user rights). However, be advised that machines are regularly reinstalled and software can move around as users move around. (If they move their office, their desktop probably won't go with them, they'll just get a new install at the new office and their old office will get re-installed for the new person there)
    6. I can be held legally liable if I know about copyright abuses where I work. Think I'm going to put myself at personal risk if my employer is too cheap to be legit? Think again.
    7. IT shops *want* to do the right thing. Don't fight us, help us. That means give us tools to help us remain compliant that are non-intrusive. Like something I can go to to see what copies are installed where and deal with non-compliance on my own. Yes, a lot of shops have tools like this already but many don't, so also make it optional. Just don't treat us as an enemy. Also remember rule #1
    1. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      Take a look at my comment a couple above.

      Would that scheme, utilizing the email method, be a "good idea" to someone like you?

    2. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by weave · · Score: 1

      I have meetings most of the day, I'll look for it and comment later today.

    3. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that, very helpful I'm currently evaluating what sort of licensing to use for a new product and your post has clarified a number of thoughts about licensing I've had. On line activation has been a consideration but it seems like it causes more problems than it solves, will cost me more time and money and won't stop piracy anyway, and your points are well taken. An online registration service is something I hadn't considered but after reading your comments it seems like a valuable service to my clients, but one that doesn't deactivate your software - just an optional service - very good. thanks again.

    4. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      I agree with all of the above and I'm gonna add my $0.02.

      I like floating or network licenses. In other words, install a single license manager app on a server somewhere, and then have all of the clients authenticate against it. That way you only have one machine to maintain and to 'call home'. Once all licenses are checked out, no new clients can connect. You can install the software on as many machines as you want with no restrictions and no individual keys, but the number of concurrent users is limited to the number of licenses you have. This also means you don't need to tie an expensive license to a single machine.

      If the software is expensive enough, consider short term leases; say a full license costs $10,000. I need to add one user for 6 weeks for a short term project; I'm not going to buy a license for him/her. I would like to lease a license for that duration, for, say, $1,200. Now you've made some money, the company stayed legit, and everyone is happy.

    5. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      "IT shops *want* to do the right thing. Don't fight us, help us" One of the best statements in years. I'll pay for software to be in compliance, but I hate to wrangle licenses. Best example, Antivirus. I used Norton for years on every machine, paid up. Than came the single activation key. Unlike an OS install where the license key is done once and locked away, Norton wanted an individual key every year, and in about 10% of installs the activation key failed at some point, and disabled the upgrades. Also, for small businesses, Norton did not offer any kind of decent volume program. I switched to Avast, purely for licensing issues. They offer - volume program with great discounts for multiple installs - one key for all machines - the key is good for 3 years Yes, I probably could install more than the 15 licenses I bought using that key, but why? For $13 a year I don't expose my business to liabilities, one meeting with an attorney to straighten out something like that costs more than the license in the first place. And for something as big as project planing software - no business that needs something like that (which usually aims at multiyear use) would risk being caught with their pants down due to unlicensed software that might go puff one day and leaving multi-million dollar business up in the air.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    6. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      If a product requires a dongle, either on a client or server, unless my back is up against the wall from users and there's no other product to meet the need, it always gets rejected.
      I was going to suggest a dongle, but I see you and some other posters vehemently against it. Could you explain to me why?
      It eliminates the need for all other systems, and you could be floating on a raft in the middle of the Pacific and the software would still work.
      It allows for ghosting the software to any machine, no need to run any online activation, store a key, remember passwords, run an activation server, or any of the other hassle.

      To me it looks like the easiest reasonably secure copy protection, if your users can be trusted to not steal the physical dongle.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    7. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by Atragon · · Score: 1

      Oh snap, I just lost the dongle.

      Oh snap, I stepped on the dongle.

      Oh snap, I left the dongle at home.

      Oh snap, my new UMPC doesn't have a serial port.

      Oh snap, the dongle is mysteriously incompatible with some specialized hardware that I HAVE to use.

      Oh snap, now I have to keep track of 4598 dongles.

    8. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by pacman+on+prozac · · Score: 1

      IT shops *want* to do the right thing.

      Why do so many of them use unlicensed versions of WinZip as if it was free software then?

    9. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      You have some valid points, but as I like dongles because:
      - They do not need any key/passphrase
      - Do not need to phone home
      - Are not easily copyable/sharable
      - Are flexible in allowing the software to be installed on multiple machines

      So I will at least give my perspective on your points, so the reader might be informed more. (the purpose of this ask /.)
      I used to work somewhere where we used dongles to protect our software. Most application were only sold maybe 100-400 times, so we did have a reasonable overview of our customers.

      Oh snap, I just lost the dongle.

      Oh snap, I stepped on the dongle.

      Oh snap, I left the dongle at home.

      I used to supply software for outdoor maintenance workers (utilities: water/electricity/sewage) and all kinds of industrial automation and monitoring. Most people would just keep the dongle on the computer on which the software ran, sometimes even glued to it, or with a wire. I think in the four years I worked there, we had one out of several thousand users who actually lost the dongle.
      We did provide a few new dongles also to some that had it glued to their laptop, and then dropped the laptop 80m in an electricity plant, and some accidents like that.

      Oh snap, my new UMPC doesn't have a serial port.
      They usually went on the Parallel port, but nowadays usually come as USB. If you have a PC without any ports, then yes you would have a problem, I can see your point. In that case the machine might not have ethernet or keyboard or a CD/DVDROM drive either, so some of the other protection methods could also be a headace.

      Oh snap, the dongle is mysteriously incompatible with some specialized hardware that I HAVE to use.
      I've never seen that problem. Only thing I have seen is needing to use multiple dongles, when running more than one application that required one, which did give trouble detecting the right one.

      Oh snap, now I have to keep track of 4598 dongles.
      I think that by the time you have 4598, you're probably big enough that you can.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    10. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by thirty2bit · · Score: 1

      Also as an IT manager, but just opposite of "weave", I'll gladly take a dongle first! I reject anything that requires ANY kind of activation bullshirt. I've had activation go awry twice now, and take down a production (manufacturing) system, costing us hundreds of times the price of the software in the 45 minutes it took to figure out the problem. Along the same lines, a license server is NOT tolerable. We've been though that- and had a formulation system go down. There's no Genuine Advantage to that anywhere, as M$ users are learning.

      Yes, I'll push for software that's not copy protected first, or take a simple serial or key file. Then a dongle. But my DRP say that if it's anything we can't guarantee recovery from at 2AM from a Snapshot backup (or Ghost), then f--- it. That rules out any activation codes or disks.

      (Our formulation system uses a USB key today. We have a spare key for immediate recovery. The most hostile thing I've held briefly was a SCADA package that had a dongle, a reg code, and required phone-in activation. It was never installed, but made a nice thud as it hit the bin.)

    11. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by weave · · Score: 2, Informative

      My users often steal dongles, sometimes just to be pricks. As for servers, I try to virtualize as much as possible. Dongles complicate that, or often don't work in that situation.

    12. Re:Speaking as an IT Director by weave · · Score: 1

      Good example about winzip since when I took over a site a long time ago, that was everywhere and I had to force them to uninstall or pay for it.

      A lot of people equate "free to download" as free to do whatever. :(

      That's more an education issue than a problem needing a technical solution IMO.

  86. finding compromise by v1 · · Score: 1

    The goal of most copy protection is to prevent "casual copying" - where you can just drop it on your flash drive and shuttle it home and pop it on your machine.

    The use of license codes to prevent CC has never been terribly effective, but it's on the "too easy" side of the fence, so most people don't mind. It doesn't take it quite as far as it maybe should, but doesn't take it too far, so it's tolerated.

    When we start talking about license codes you get that are tied to your business name (where the Name and License fields have to agree with each other to install, and then they plaster the name on the opening banner when the software is launched) is where we start questioning the invasive nature of the software.

    At the far end of the scale is the online activations. These have been addressed in this thread but most of them missed the most important point. The software will be installable (or in extreme cases, usable) only as long as the author is around. If the author's business closes and a year later your HD crashes and you pull out your restore disk, you cannot 'activate' it anymore because the activation server is down. We have not actually seen this problem come up too much yet which really surprises me, but it will happen. Actually, most of the "honorable" authors have released a crack that strips off some or all license requirements after they go out of business. I've seen several other software that many years after release, the final software update the software offered removed things like requirements for the CD to be in the drive to play the game, etc. Even though most authors seem to be good this way, it's in no way required and I really loathe buying software that requires activation for this reason. It pisses me off to think that if a business in California closes it could render a piece of software that I depend on useless, after I have paid for it.

    Some companies are notorious for having viscious systems Quark comes immediately to mind. DP is another. I spent almost four hours assisting a customer last year trying to get DP reinstalled following a HD crash because he'd owned it since version 1, and had purchased upgrades all the way up to something like version 4.5. So we had to dig up his FLOPPIES, find a floppy drive, and install version 1 on a different machine (that could run the version of OS that v1.0 would run on!) Then upgrade to version 2. Then crobar it onto a newer machine in a usable state. (it wouldn't run but it was enough for the upgrader to accept it) Then upgrade to version 3. Then 3.5. Then 4. Then 4.5. Had to find the upgrade codes and software for each and every one of them. (we could not find one set of older media and I had to go find a copy elsewhere) Frankly I'm amazed we pulled it off, I was almost certain we were not going to find everything we needed. But he did keep all his goodies well-organized which is the only reason he wasn't left to buy another full version of DP.

    This perfectly illustrates why software should not be aggressively protected. For any nazi software developers reading this, take note. If you make an upgrader, make it be able to accept the typed in serial number of the previous version as an alternative to detecting the previous installation on the HD. And if they put the previous number in and it's an upgrade, for gods sake don't ask for the next older sn. We don't always keep those things back to the 80's. I've deal with thiat both ways in the past, one of them we had to dig up four sets of SNs to get something installed, but at least we didn't have to hunt for ancient media. Another stopped at one upgrade level and just assumed you had all the prior licenses.

    Problem is they already have your money at that point, and there's no motivation to make REinstsallation painless. Some of them I think could really care less.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  87. Good point, but... by Fross · · Score: 1

    I am in exactly the same position actually :)

    But WinRaR is something I use very sporadically, twice a year perhaps. Windows Commander is something I use every day. Ironically, I don't use WinRaR so often as Windows Commander has really great built-in rar handling :)

    I wouldn't expect to pay, or HAVE to pay, for software I use once in a blue moon, but for something that you use regularly and often, nagware is often enough to get you to pay.

    1. Re:Good point, but... by blackest_k · · Score: 1

      Why use zip programs as examples of Programs people don't pay for.
      The ability to unzip archives is built into XP, There are a bunch of free archive tools for Linux and Windows. Winzip would get near zero use if most people had to pay for it. Winrar is a better product anyway, probably windows commander would have greater sales if winzip and winrar were not available. Or maybe rar and zip files wouldnt be universally used.

      Copy protection generally is a practice which turns paying customers into ex-customers and is off putting to potential new customers.
      Rule number one has to be keep your customers happy.

      If you want paying customers focus on getting paying customers, focusing on piracy will generally mean problems for your paying customers. consider which is better for you a user base of 10,000 of which 5,000 paid you or a user base of 100,000 of which 10,000 paid you. Those 90,000 free copies are raising the profile of your software. It's worked pretty well for microsoft and adobe. Maybe it's worth having a support forum for your software, the feedback will help you improve the next version and those 90,000 pirate users may actually help your 10,000 paying customers. You may even get some converts for the next version.

  88. From the 3D software side by imashination · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The best method I've really seen is at the company I used to work for, Maxon Computer, they make cinema 4d. The only stuff you can really protect against is casual opportunistic pirating. Ie a company that buys a copy and puts it on several machines at once instead of buying several licences; which by the way is extremely common amongst smaller 10 man studios. C4D uses a serial number, this is very little burden for you or the customer. The serial is not tied to the hardware in any way; its freely moveable and installable on any machines you like. The check is simple, it checks the network to see if someone else with the same serial is already running the software, if so then it just doesn't load, that's it. Yes, you can in theory start yanking out network cables before you load it and so forth but this isnt really an option for most, crawling under the desk, losing shared network drives of media etc several times a day. Just make a personally identifiable serial number to scare some away from giving it out and add a network check to stop people casually spreading it around the office. If someone wants to copy your software for free, they will do it, no protection will save you, just accept this and don't burden your paying customers with annoying crap. - Dongles cost money, you'll have driver/os issues, they'll break, they'll get fried and corrupted, they take up slots, they get stolen, they are truly crap IMHO. - Tying your serials to NICs is a hassle and you will be forever sending new serials every time someone upgrades their computer, you don't want to set yourself up for this eternal headache - Online checks, lets not even go there.

    1. Re:From the 3D software side by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      The check is simple, it checks the network to see if someone else with the same serial is already running the software, if so then it just doesn't load, that's it.

      Oh yes? And how exactly does it check the network for other copies with the same serial?

      Does each copy send broadcast packets containing the serial? Does it portscan your entire fucking network looking for other copies?

      If it works like you're describing then it's almost certainly one of those two options, and neither are remotely attractive. On my network that shit would be blocked very quickly, not to enable piracy but to disable mental retardation.

    2. Re:From the 3D software side by imashination · · Score: 1

      I have the programming skills of a peanut, I can't tell you how it works, All Im doing is telling you what it does.

      The serial you enter to activate the product is ###########-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX

      Your personal number is the first 11 digits, this is all that is ever used or sent to identify someone, the next 16 characters are just the hash, this is only ever entered or seen during installation, so youre not sending a full usable serial number over the network at any point.

      In the 7 or so years theyve been using this system (I spent 5 years doing tech support, and continue beta testing for them) this system has never cropped up as a problem in any shape or form. Seven years and some 50,000 customers (the last sales figures they released 2 years ago) and not a single problem with this system nor complaint. It works, no matter how much you might like to froth at the mouth.

      The other options are hardware dongles, tying to NICs or performing no check whatsoever

    3. Re:From the 3D software side by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      The Mac version of MS Office does this, too. Just sayin'...

  89. Haha. Doublespeak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "how can my licensing mechanism best help legitimate customers track their licenses"

    Yes, because legitimate users have nothing better to do than track their licenses. They thrill to the thought. They bought the software to save time, but it comes with the "long tail" of now needing better help to track this new software. Thank goodness you were right there to help them with that new license tracking task you've given them.

    Just be honest. Say "you need a way to remind otherwise legitimate, fair people that they have to pay for every copy they use without pissing them off".

    There. Doesn't it feel better to be honest and not resort to stupid marketing doublespeak?

  90. (nearly) None at all by andy61 · · Score: 1

    Though it is hard to accept, pirates are better than us; they have to concentrate on a very small piece of code, while you are investing all your business on a lot of functionalities.

    Invest in the quality of your software and of your support services; if the software is good, pirates will play your game: your software will go round and round, and you will save a lot of money in advertising.

    You could also prevent piracy: just adopt a non-commercial free licence, so that you will push on the user responsibility; the more people uses your software, the more you save money in training and support, and more companies will feel confident with your product.

    But, when a user calls for support, you can ask an installation code provided by the installed software, so that you can link the license to the customer. Then you can get money for problem solving, for a prompt response time for bug correction and patch and upgrade distribution, etc.

    And you can always change your mind about DRM in the future: please remember that for a company the bigger cost is not to adopt a new software , but to switch from an existing to a new one: start as soon as possible to get new users, and do it before your competitors do.

    Andy

  91. And another one .. by cheros · · Score: 1

    Another feature: make a reasonably functioning copy available for 'educational' use (depends on what it is if you can use this). This means people can use it at home, play with it and get familiar with it. Any commercial use requires a license.

    In that context I like the previous idea as well (although there are security risks associated with uncontrolled data sharing between machines - it's an open question if a decent Windows firewall will let you!), because it would allow you to offer an 'as a book' license which is IMHO the fairest license possible. It means a copy is only ever used by one person, like a book, even though installed on multiple systems (desktop, laptop and PC at home). The 'as a book' idea came (AFAIK) from Borland in the days of 'Turbo' (Turbo Pascal, Turbo C et al).

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  92. right amount by micktaggart · · Score: 1

    Customers should feel that they are not paying the price for pirated copies in the wild. They should have a vested interest in keeping an encryption key safe. If you sell your software for $30, they might not have that, sell it for $900, and they might think they are paying the price for pirated copies, and will think your copy protection is mute as well (unless you sell speciality software). Sell somewhere in between, and use a key infrastructure where the key is tied to a customer's account.

  93. The best anti piracy from my perspective.... by whistlingtony · · Score: 1

    ... would be to make it cheap enough that I just don't care about stealing it.

    Other than that, everyone is used to having to put in keys, and having it check for authenticity before updates is plenty of incentive to have a legit copy.

    -T

  94. Corporates don't like copy protection by hellsDisciple · · Score: 1

    If you are thinking of having your software deployed in a corporate environment - think again! A lot of places use tools like Windows SMS, AD Windows Group Policy and the system used in the undergrad labs in college here - Novell Zenworks. With all of these, an application that installs in a simple way (using a properly made MSI or NSIS installer) is a breeze for the admins. Once you add things like license checking then you're in trouble. Any host-based license checking isn't going to cut it and end-users should not have to 'activate' it.

    Also many businesses don't allow direct access to Port 80 (or any internet port) from workstations that don't need it, and many do not still routinely give WWW access through something like a proxy. Having to make special rules for your specific software isn't going to endear you much to sysadmins. Often too, desktop support is a different branch of IT to things like proxy and networks - more prevelant in big companies.

    One very well sold example of commercial software is a jukebox app called Touchtone. The author distributes the limited version freely and you buy a license file to use it. The license file has your name and an activation key encoded, so that if you spread it it's clear who you are. If you buy for multiple machines, same file does them all. No phoning home, and great support, so I bought his software. Do like that and you will do well.

  95. Best form is NONE... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    I have lost more "licensed" software due to stupid "registration" type crap. It's annoying. What does it do?

    Simple, it makes me not care about pirating the software.

  96. That's so cute by flyneye · · Score: 1

    My dear friend,your delusion that ANY amount of copy protection is enough.
    Let's review a little history.
    As long as I can remember serialz get cracked and even key gens.
    Dongles get bypassed.
    Nag screens get bypassed or if nonintrusive enough,ignored.
    Some crackers do it just to do it.
    everything gets cracked.
    The thing you have going on most for you is that your software is so boring and undesirable to all but a targeted userbase,that no one cares.
    Some users WILL crack it,most won't.Whats your worry really?
    Consider OSS and just support and modify for cash.Maybe charge for the help file.If its good maybe a big corporation will pay for a private version.The cream will rise.

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  97. Water-mark it by Lord+Graga · · Score: 1

    Simply watermark your applications before they are sent out - this will not prevent large-scale piracy, but let your customers know that the applications that they recieve are watermarked. That will scare off most of the possible pirates. Also, you could create unique keys easely from the MD5 of the watermarked program + the username.
    Alternatively, send out patches through the customers mail, and not through the program itself - and maybe, you could even go as far as making them work *only* with the watermarked applications that your customer already has received.

  98. use a serial number by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    use a serial number.

    keep an eye on the usual places for leaked keys and disable them when you have verified they are leaked and disable in next version.

    This also gives you a good reference for who to support and who not to support.

    and honestly, if you can't keep up with a key you probably shouldn't be using computers. Why do people get to whine about a key on software when they willingly accept them for cars and houses? oh, wait, that's right, it's OK when it's protecting THEIR property.

    but definitely stay away from phoning home and any kind of asshatery.

  99. elicense marketing sucks by Snibriloid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really, really bad marketing.

    So how do i get the creepy feeling that this guy isn't entirely honest, but actually an elicense marketing stooge?

    The install is painless (it installs a license control service that in many years of using I've never had any sort of issue with), and it stops a LOT of piracy.
    Err, yes. I have original software too, but somehow the companies failed to send me regular, detailed newsletters about the LOTS of piracy they stopped with their particiular brand of DRM.

    It IS possible to "unwrap" the executable, but of all the Elicense protected software I've used, I've only ever seen one game cracked. (Ironically it is the most obscure of the ones I own.)
    Yeah, shure, I too make regular searches on the web for cracked versions of the originals i own, especially when the DRM is soooo good that i dont't want a no-cd crack.
    And by the way, what are the multiple(!) games that haven't been cracked? I would really like to buy them, if only for rarity value. After all, in the whole history of mankind they are likley to be the only pieces of software ever that weren't cracked....

    I am vehemently opposed to DRM, copy protection, call it what you will, but I find Elicense extremely inoffensive due to it's ease of use.
    Yeah, i'm opposed to DRM but happy to install extra software on my computer that monitors me. But i am vehemently against everything else DRM-related, trust me.

    DRM should not impact legitimate consumers, and this one is the only one I've come across that has never caused me any sort of negative experience.
    Software where you have to enter a code ONCE is really a pain in the ass, believe me. But elicense is soooo easy to use, i have to mention it five times. Please buy our product.

    DRM-Companies, i beg you, if you let your marketing division run loose on slashdot, at least stop them from taking drugs. Thanks!

    1. Re:elicense marketing sucks by cool_arrow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This guy has a good BS detector.

    2. Re:elicense marketing sucks by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >the companies failed to send me regular, detailed newsletters about the LOTS of piracy they stopped with their particiular brand of DRM.

      They didn't itemize the losses and claim them for tax deductions, either. That's what I want to see.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:elicense marketing sucks by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      Except for one slight flaw. I have absolutely nothing to do with Elicense except experience with using software protected by them. I also have experience of TryMedia (used to protect the great race sim rFactor. Oh wait, I just spoke positively about TryMedia and rFactor. I must work for TryMedia and ISI as well.)

      The guy asked a question, I gave an answer based on years of interest in software piracy and copy protection schemes. That makes me a shill does it?

      You people are fucking idiots.

    4. Re:elicense marketing sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it does. And no we aren't, but you are.

      There. As powerful an argumentation as your own. You really think that calling someone an idiot will persuade them into agreeing with your point of view? You sir, are the idiot here, and I don't give a flying f*ck whether I win you over or not. You are a source of annoying noise. Please go elsewhere. Twit.

    5. Re:elicense marketing sucks by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      Says the oh so brave AC hiding behind his anonymity. Grow a set, then we'll talk.

      And yes, you ARE idiots if you immediately believe that because someone has something positive to say, they must work for the company.

      You believe what you want. Sadly my bank account shows how very wrong you are in your accusation. But if you want to a be a typical idiotic Slashdot neanderthal who assumes "Positive comments on a commercial product = shill" you go right ahead and keep living in your brightly colored dream world.

  100. I'd go for none aswell. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As many have previously posted, none sounds about right.
    I absolutely detest copy protection systems because I feel that all the do is screw me over. I was serriously considering returning Bioshock because of their hairbrain activation debacle that they decided to keep secret until forced to tell people about, there is _no_ info on the box or in the manual about the activation restrictions for that title.

    Anyways, what I'm allways thinking is "what if this fails? Then I'm screwed!". I was considering Vista before I heard of this black screen lockout but what if that subrotuine or what ever it is that handles that part of the system fails on my genuine copy? I dont want to run software like that!

    Copy protection systems also seem dead set on mucking things up in the system they run on. I recently downloaded process explorer from microsoft to see what all those anonymous svchost processes was up to on my machine, guess what? Anything requiring SecuROM (like Bioshock) will _not run_ if you have run procExpl. The only way around it is to reboot.

    Long ranty thing this post. As others have said, trust your customers and spend your time and money on making the software so good that they will want to give you money for it.

  101. Product activation is not appropriate for buisness by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If your target is buisness users, this sort of "phone-home product activation" scheme is going to cause you and your customers a lot of grief. The install might be "painless" on someone's home computer (assuming the someone isn't ethically opposed to product activation), but it won't be in a corporate environment, where your product may have to traverse a proxy server (or even an authenticating proxy server) to reach the internet.

  102. Requiring an internet connection. by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2, Informative

    One of my first assignments was to configure a database for a product demonstration. I had to do it outside of my home country and the software/customer could not provide a connection to the internet to the server.

    One of the pieces of software required a connection to do its activation. No phone or snail mail supported. It was so backwards where we had a tech from the software company online and they didn't know how to activate the software w/o an internet connection. We had to wait for them to send us a patch disk that included the activation files.

    --
    Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
  103. Mod me redundant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't read the other comments, but I'm sure most of them are saying the same thing. The answer to your question is none whatever.

    targeted mostly to corporate users.

    These are normally users with budgets for software and policies in place that say they should pay for it.

    While I don't wish to burden legitimate users

    Any copy protection burdens legitimate users. In fact, the #1 reason I switched to Linux was to avoid entering the God Damned Product Key (TM) when reinstalling Windows.

    I do want to prevent most piracy

    You can't. Like someone else has said, making bits not copyable is like making water not wet. I would not want to buy software from anyone ignorant enough about computers that they would not know this. Even if you finally decided to do without copy protection, I would still not use your product, let alone buy it, because your post convinces me you know little about computers and computing.

    Is it acceptable for the software to phone home?

    NO NO NO NO NO NEVER ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED????? JESUS H. CHRIST I WOULD NEVER USE ANY OF YOUR SOFTWARE, EVEN IF YOU GPLED IT!!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?????

    You are going to have casual "piracy". There will be folks who use your software without paying for it. If you can't deal with that, go into another line of work.

    -mcgrew

  104. Bah. Same problem as always... by Wooky_linuxer · · Score: 1

    The legitimate user - or someone who practices what people call "casual piracy", and some people see as fair use - are the only ones to be nagged. Real pirates will crack the key authorization process and disable the phone home "feature". BTW, while you had the sense to allow for phoning home only if there is a internet conn, I don't like my software (I bought it, remember?) using my resources without adding value to me. This process only helps the seller, not the costumer.

    So, only the costumer may see the pop-up screens or get that phone call - right in the middle of a very important project or meeting, smells good. The people who will use a crack never get to be annoyed with it. Perhaps someone who bought a one machine license and installed it in two or three may be caught - and you loose a costumer forever, provided he has any options.

    If you don't want people to pirate your software, add some value to your product that the pirates can't. I know it sounds like PHB speak, and it is, but providing you actually do it instead of using it as a buzzword, it works. Give them a liberal license, let them install it on a fair number of machines, and be opened to negotiate discount licenses. Provide a decent support. Release a demo that gives good functionality to spread the word about your product, and encourage its sharing. Don't treat your costumer as thieves, and most of them will be happy to work with you. You will always loose some copies to piracy. If you do it right, most of them wouldn't buy them anyways so the fraction of actual sales you loose is very small.

    --
    Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
    1. Re:Bah. Same problem as always... by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      A phone home would also server as a version check, that's some small value.

      Some have argued (on this very article) that knowing about licensing issues is a valuable service for the customer since most people want to be legal.

      A solution to the legal customer annoyance if something goes wrong... What if you could turn off the version check, and never be annoyed again.

      License terms and license enforcement are two different issues. I was planning some sort of home+work installation is a-ok scheme to provide some flexibility. Probably have some kind of volume license scheme. But there's liberal, and there's absurd in what you allow.

    2. Re:Bah. Same problem as always... by Wooky_linuxer · · Score: 1

      Some have argued (on this very article) that knowing about licensing issues is a valuable service for the customer since most people want to be legal.

      I assume some people may buy cracked software from some resellers thinking it is the real deal. I believe this doesn't happen often within the enterprise market, where you usually have respectable resellers. Even then, annoying the end user will not help you here.

      But there's liberal, and there's absurd in what you allow.

      Of course, and deciding which is which is part of the game. A high end 3D modelling program might sell well with a per seat license of a couple of thousand dollars, it might even be a bargain, since the market expects this kind of pricing and licensing. The secret is in discovering what your potential clients expect from you, and providing something more, that will help them in their business. As long as you keep that in good balance, most people will be happy to pay.

      --
      Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
    3. Re:Bah. Same problem as always... by LarsG · · Score: 1

      A phone home would also server as a version check, that's some small value.

      What kind of 'copy protection' to use depends in part on what kind of software it is.

      Ideally, instead of inconveniencing the paying customer you should try to look at ways to give them some sort of additional benefit compared to those using the cracked/pirated version. To give some examples - a cd-key that enable online multiplayer in games, a good printed manual, access to support/community forums on the manufacturers website, access to updates/fixes.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    4. Re:Bah. Same problem as always... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't want people to pirate your software, add some value to your product that the pirates can't. You mean something other than software?
      So if you only know how to code, you are not allowed to make money. Makes sense. Not.
  105. Fascinating. But Back on Earth, It's Like This: by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where do you work? A Deli? 1996?

    You run cracked software on a workplace PC here in 21st Century Corporate America, you'll be lucky to get away with a strictly worded warning. Get caught again and your employment will be terminated for sure.

    On the other hand, install some nice new DRM-free software in the corporate workplace and wave it around enough and it will get copied and brought home by hundreds of non-paying users.

    The answer to the man's question lay in just exactly how good and unique his software is. If he's created the new spreadsheet-like paradigm for which their is no competition, he can attach a big ball and chain to the floppy and Corporate America will still make him rich (God Bless the USA!). If it's "Yet Another [fill in the blank]" for which there are better marketed (e.g., MS) or free open-source versions of, then he'll need a friendlier DRM scheme, or folks will just go with what they know/what costs less.

  106. If it were me by mattr · · Score: 1

    If it was really useful software I'd urge the company to buy it.

    If there was any way it could be made to stop working, I would not.

    The companies now who are your target market actually have strict rules in place that do not allow cracked software.

    I would recommend making it possible for it to be copied from one computer to another, and not to check on how many copies are installed. Allow the corporate IT dept. to automatically install it on new computers that get started up (sell them a separate autoinstall tool if you really want, so they can keep track of which machines have it - but don't base any kind of charge on that number).

    Once you sell it, you sold it to that company.

    This is because license management is a royal pain and it seems unlikely that a company will buy from you more than once. Also, it becomes more useful the more people are using it. So companies using more of it will be more enthusiastic about it and tell people about it. You can feature those companies on your website with recommendations perhaps (if they say okay).

    If you wish to make a lot of money selling seats, then consider a site license that will be a lot cheaper than the ordinary version if they have a large number of users. But do not even think about sneaking something onto their network. In fact don't do it even if you tell them about it.

    Why not rely on honesty. No company will make this a part of their infrastructure if they may suddenly not be able to add a new employee, or have it stop working. Just figure on the general size and sell them it once. This is the model best suited to a scheduling app which is what yours sounds like. No sane company would base their scheduling on cracked software.

    If you want later maybe you can add things that will let companies that work together schedule together. That kind of a bridge also is a one shot thing, deploy it on one of the companies and it will work.

    Make it easy for them to keep on deploying. It costs you nothing for an extra seat to be made at the same company, but it will be a big merit if they can tell people in house that deployment is unlimited and they can back things up, virtualize, or do whatever they want. At the moment you have no clients. I recommend you make it easy to get it used and don't be greedy. The Internet equivalent of per-seat dongles only makes sense on expensive engineering software. What you need is the opposite model, make it easy for success stories to grow, build value-added products and an online community site, and get it so popular that it is regularly featured in magazines and word of mouth. If you have a good product and eliminate the barriers to it I expect you'll do well.

  107. Depends on product & marketing by redelm · · Score: 1
    How you choose to protect a product must depend very much on what it is and how it is sold. Some schedulers are only worth $50/seat. More specialized/detailed ones may be worth $50k/seat. Obviously you don't protect one like the other.

    Second, have you decided how you intend to licence the product? Per seat or per company? There is a fairly high risk of intra-company copying, but you should decide whether you wish to stop this or consider it marketing.

    In short, there is no one answer. Thinking there is is not thinking at all.

  108. shareware method (and what not to do) by farker+haiku · · Score: 1

    I just recently ran across a problem with a shareware program I was evaluating. This may help you determine whether or not to use this particular method.

    First, some brief back story. I set up my laptop with 3 user accounts, one for me, one for my wife, and an administrator account. I had my privs set to power user, and hers set to non admin. She kept trying to open the system clock for the calendar functionality - and was getting denied. She finally came to me in disgust and said fix it. I was lazy, made her a power user, and went on with my day instead of doing the right fix.

    About two weeks ago I installed CMud, which has a 31 day trial period. Two days ago, I noticed that the system clock time was changed, inappropriately, to January 17th 2008 or something like that. I changed it back, and now can no longer open the program because the system clock has been updated during the evalution period. No work around available - I can't just decide I liked the software and purchase it even. This last part boggles the mind - if I liked the software enough to try and bypass the copy protection, wouldn't you still want me to be able to purchase the software?

    The answer: Uninstall CMud + go back to zmud. (zmud is good enough for me, once upon a time it was so good that I bought two copies of it - one for me, one for a friend).

    --
    Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
  109. Consider games by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    I agree completely. There is no reason to waste time and effort on copy protection. Just require a license key, and, if it is shareware, disable or nag after the trial period. The point of any "protection" should be to remind the user to pay, not to force him to do so. Look at games - there is not a single one out there that isn't cracked. Not one. Bioshock, with its phone-home activation? Cracked in three weeks. Half-life with steam? Cracked in a month or so. Search for any game, and there is a crack available. All the games I have installed on my machine are cracked, even though I own them legitimately, because I don't want to swap CDs all the time. Trust me, there is nothing you can invent that a pirate can't crack, so just don't bother and concentrate on improving your software.

  110. Re:None at all - or maybe nagware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have to agree. You will probably find that the majority of your support incidents will be related to your software copy protection scheme. I have been involved in projects using hardware and software based licensing systems for over 20 years. I can never recommend using software based copy protection - it is too easy to break for those determined and too much of a headache for legitimate users.

    Unfortunately, your distribution model prevents the use of hardware based protection. You would find the failure rate of these systems to be at least an order of magnitude lower than software systems (maybe 2 orders of magnitude lower).

    I think your only option is to release your software as nagware. If it isn't licensed, then hit the user with delayign splash screens on launch, file saves and exit - with a nice link to your web site to buy a legit copy.

  111. Your range by scubamage · · Score: 1

    Ok, well, look at your range:
    At the most draconian end, you could use USB dongles, and phoning home to servers on a periodic basis (both of which can be circumvented).

    At the most liberal end, you can leave the software open and charge a nice low price.

    I personally would reccomend a low price which makes the software appear easily attainable, combined with a small, very light copy protection if you abesolutely must have it. No matter what you do there will be pirated copies. Accept it, smile, and ask for seconds.

    The real solution lies in why people pirate software - most people can't justify paying lots of money for something they can't even hold. So if you make your software as accessible as possible, theoretically you should see a boom of usage.

    Or you could skip the copy protection alltogether, make it free (as in free beer) software and then just make money off of advertising.
    *shrug*

  112. Don't surrender MY copyright in favor of YOURS by fishbowl · · Score: 1

    Here's the deal: If the software is used in the means of production of my creative work, I will not tolerate YOUR cryptographic control in that process unless I have all keys.

    I can accept something like a license key, where I am responsible for keeping the key and keeping the installation media. If I lose one of those, and cannot use the software in the future (e.g., long after you are dead, perhaps even on emulated hardware), that was my responsibility.

    However, I cannot use dongles, challenge/response, online or telephone or snail mail activation, or anything else that serves to disable the software.

    This is particularly true of any music production software. If there's a mechanism to disable the software as some sort of license protection scheme, I can't use it. I can't use it, partly because of my position on copyright (putting your cryptographic controls in the path of my own creative work abridges MY copyright!), and I can't use it because I'm risk averse (I can't perform with a software instrument that has a USB dongle, I can't record with software that decides it needs to call home, and I can't really use anything that does not allow me, with no communication with anyone else required, to put together a spare host and re-install hardware on a moment's notice.)

    Maybe I'm the only person in the world that wouldn't buy your software because of your copy protection scheme, and maybe I'm not.

    But I urge you to consider whether you are putting your interests ahead of your customers' (e.g., elevating the need to protect your copyright to the level that it abridges theirs), and to walk a mile in your customers' shoes and consider how your position will be regarded by them.

    My reaction to some copy protection schemes is to be fundamentally insulted, and to be entirely unable to enter into any kind of relationship because the company has asked me to surrender my rights and treated the whole thing as though it were reasonable. My position has nothing to do with the right to make copies of software, and everything to do with the right to use the software as the means of production to produce my own creative work and to reproduce it in the future.

    Here's an idea: If you *must* use a dongle, make the dongle something that's (1) eminently useful, and (2) essential to the operation. Most dongles are just there to disable the software; that's their only function.

    My suggestion is to just distribute a license key, and provide a trial version that works well enough that it's worthless to crack. You'll see keygens and cracks out there anyway, no matter what. Think of it as feedback metrics on the penetration of your product into the mindshare. If you make your copy protection scheme too good, the cracks will be buggy, and will serve as bad advertising, ruining your reputation.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  113. Be prepared by Stele · · Score: 1

    No matter what you do, no matter how hard you work on it, if your software is decent, it WILL get cracked. There is nothing you can do about this.

    That said, some simple kind of system to "keep the honest guys honest" is needed, because without that, you'll sell no more than one copy to most businesses.

    It's a MAJOR catch-22, and we spend a great deal of time dealing with "licensing" issues. In fact, most of our support problems are due to people who either can't read, see, or type, or apparently can't hear if you end up trying to help them over the phone.

    I've implemented several licensing systems over the years, from simple serial-number based stuff to more advanced floating-license systems using rlm (Reprise Software) on our high-end products, to magical "activation" stuff using Nalpeiron. All of them cost money somewhere (don't forget about your development time). If you're going to be in a corporate environment a floating system like rlm would probably be worth it, and it's not that expensive.

    Another thing you might want to look into is a product called Themida (Windows only). It's a software anti-crack "wrapper" and you can do simple licensing with it. We have one piece of software we wrapped with it that is the only software I have worked on that has yet to be cracked.

    Licensing is a HUGE rats-nest, simultaneously something you HAVE to do (unless you want to just give your software away) and SHOULD NOT do as it's a huge waste of time. Probably the part of commercial software development that is shortening my life the most.

  114. Any amount, but... by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    A manufacturer can apply whatever amount of copy protection he wants. He just should not be able to form illegal cartels, like RIAA to force those copy protection rules in 99% of the market.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  115. Shrug. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 1

    Eventually, that's what I did with it; it's hosted on Sourceforge because I didn't want to see it die, but I'm hardly motivated to update it, am I?

  116. the solution by e70838 · · Score: 1

    For unlicensed users, just put a big nag screen with a delay (5s or 10s). For licensed users, do not put any copy protection but gives them a different registration key for each user. This key shall clearly contain their name. Tell them that they are responsible if their key is divulgated to internet. There is no burden for legitimate users, this should frighten illegal users and it is really trivial to implement.

  117. One in thousand by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    In my experience, about one in thousand downloads will result in a payment, whether the code is Free or restricted. That means that either 999 people found they don't really need the program, or they found a patch for the protection system. So, copy protection simply doesn't work in practise and is only a nuisance for the legitimate users.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  118. The ultimate copy protection plan by Prototerm · · Score: 1

    Make the program so difficult to use that the user needs to purchase a maintenance agreement in order to get help running it. You should also consider making training classes available (for a substantial fee, of course). This will provide additional revenue streams. Finally, you need to mount a FUD campaign against your competition pointing out all the bad things in their product (make some up if you have to).

    This is the only copy protection that will work. Any other solution will be cracked in days (if not hours) by pirates, leaving only your legitimate customers to suffer through the protection scheme. Copy protection doesn't work. It didn't work 25 years ago and it doesn't work today. Note well that, when Microsoft's Genuine Advantage servers went down, the pirates were the only ones *not* inconvenienced.

    --
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
  119. None at all-Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "And if it was even slightly more restrictive than that, what do you think people would do?"

    What they're doing presently.

    "Buy it, or opt for one of the better (free of charge, free software) alternatives (7zip for example?)"

    Well if they were all that then people would be using them instead of Winzip in the first place?

    "The WinZip authors know that by having this free to use version, people will download their version which gives them free advertising and keeps up their market share."

    Market share is useless if no one's paying you for it. I think you ment mind share.

    "This means that when someone decides to spend money, they most likely will go with WinZip."

    Spending money on a free version? Perish the thought.

    "It's the same way Microsoft works. They know a lot of the pirates, if stopped completely from using windows for free would not buy it. They would use something else."

    Different dynamics there. I doubt the OP is a monopoly.

    ---
    Heh. My captcha is "uncaught".

    1. Re:None at all-Money by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      7Zip is better, but it's not as well known. Most everyone I've met that can turn a PC on has heard of WinZip. When they hear a recommendation for 7Zip and try it, most of them do stop using unregistered WinZip.

    2. Re:None at all-Money by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well if they were all that then people would be using them instead of Winzip in the first place?

      They are all that. People aren't using them in the first place because of the 'MindShare' aspect that you mentioned.

      Spending money on a free version? Perish the thought.

      The GP was right. I've now worked at two large corporations and one small one that all had site licenses to WinZip. They install them on all desktop systems automatically. Most large corporations have policies in place such that pre-installed software must be licensed. This is for audit reasons and so they can claim support if they need to.

      I, of course, promptly uninstall it from my machines and replace it with 7-Zip. Last time I checked, Winzip still didn't handle several major file-types (like RAR).

    3. Re:None at all-Money by Danga · · Score: 1

      I, of course, promptly uninstall it from my machines and replace it with 7-Zip. Last time I checked, Winzip still didn't handle several major file-types (like RAR).

      I use 7-Zip too but your comment about Winzip not handling RAR is no longer correct. WinZip 11.1 added RAR and BZ2 support which you can verify directly at the WinZip website:

      http://www.winzip.com/prodpagewz.htm

      Now that those types of files are supported it can handle the majority of popular compression formats available so it no longer is lacking in that regard. I still will stick with 7-Zip although it is nice to know that if I am on a machine that only has WinZip available I will be able to use it for RAR archives.

      --
      Hey, there is only one Return and it's not of the King, it's of the Jedi.
    4. Re:None at all-Money by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Is it full rar support?

      The nasty thing about rar is they keep bringing out new versions of the format. From what I can gather there are a lot of tools arround that will read the older variants of rar but very few that will read the latest variants.

      zip technically supports a variety of compression methods too but i've never seen a windows zip tool that didn't default to producing basic deflate based zips that can be read by a huge variety of software (if you have a deflate implementation availible and are a reasonable coder working out how to deal with the zip headers should not take you very long).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  120. No to phone home and elicense by gravis777 · · Score: 1

    I do not mind some copy protection. While it can be broken, and pirates will crack your software no matter what you do, I must agree with earlier posts that say that this will probably be a limited amount of your audience. I think the key thing is while I do not care if people profit from their software, you should think about not making the price so high that it invites piracy. This can be difficult if the software is highly specialized to a small corner of the market.

    I hate the idea of phoning home and e;icenses, which once again, can be cracked. In this case you are punishing legit customers. And, OMG, what if you do not have an always on internet connection? I have seen these, these are absolutely annoying, the software pops up every few minutes, demanding to phone home, and you have to dial in. OMG, that is SO annoying. And the elicense thing is flawed too. We actually had this problem had an issue with someone who looks like they stole our serial number (or some hacker used a keygen or something), and so we just bought licenses for this software two days ago, and we cannot install a single product becuase its saying the code is already in use. We are having all kinds of problems with their tech support, where they have tried calling us thieves and everything else.

    Oh, and what happens if you have a harddrive crash, and have to reinstall the software, and did not get to check in your old elicense before you lost all data on your harddrive?

    No, phoning home and elicenses are evil. Do not use them, you only end up punishing legit customers and not hurting the piraters at all

  121. Just a few ideas and suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should definitly have something that would make it more irritating for pirates, but no to any degree where legit users get into any more hassle.

    One idea could be something like (if access to internet is available)
    - User installs software and enters his license-key that was issued to him, and only him.
    - Software updates are done from within the software and uses the license-key to validate that he is allowed to download any updates.
    - If 2 machines registers then disable them both from receiving updates and display some message about this.
        One way to check for this could be to check if any other machine tries to fetch an update without their id has been validated.
    - For security i would recommend you to use some proven encryption for generating the keys to get away from people writing their own key-gens
    - For software updates to customers without network access to their production-systems have a page that requires registration and a valid registration-key.
        If a web-page would be available then you could have an automatic key-reset function for companies also where they will be required to write a valid response to
        the reset. (this should NEVER happen if they did not do anything out of the ordinary)

    And always keep in mind, keep things in the clear and trust the customers.. Maybe even have a good documentation on how the license-check works so they know what do to.

    And you will never get rid of 'pirates' since they will just crack the software from contacting the update server, and disable the key-check. Better will be to keep the paying customers happy and the pirates unhappy by not allowing them to get updates.

    I have seen a quite cool copyright-protection that works quite well if done correctly. It was some type of external binary blob that the application itself loaded/reloaded to many different checks on anything from checksums to the date on the system.. And it would have been next to impossible to get around this since it was so intertwined into the rest of the code and all it required was to update the 'binary-blob' once every month..

    Quite secure, and don't create any big load on the customer.. But i would suggest not to use anything less than 6 months between the blobs, and those should be delivered via the automatic-software updates.

    And yes, I'm a anonymous coward for this post since i don't want to get hated for putting these ideas out there.. :D

  122. Annual software maintenance by LinuxDon · · Score: 1

    The best way is to provide software maintenance to your users and have them log in to a web page to download it.
    To download new versions etc. they will have to pay you annually and don't have to explicitly decide on whether an upgrade is worth the money. You then might as well skip the entire license activation thing.

    As a system administrator I tend to like the idea to be able to provide people with the newest versions of software without the entire license hassle.
    New versions tend to fix a lot of problems, so I'm not keen on supporting old software. Also I do not support any unlicensed software, so the barrier is very high for people to use it.
    When software vendors make it easy for me to support their software for my users I will be more than happy to sign the bill when it arrives. On the other hand if the software we already payed for inflicts a lot of license pain on me, I will actively encourage the user to stop using it or switch to an alternative of a different vendor.

    If you insist on using some kind of activation thing, just issue a license file and tell the user where to put it.
    BTW, always make it possible for users to pay for your software by -paper invoice- / bank transfer. Very few employees have access to the company credit card!

  123. No piracy enforcement at all by viking80 · · Score: 1

    Just do this:
    1. Register the name, company and address and other info (IP, MAC? etc0

    2. Display this licensee information every time the program boots up.

    3. Write a standard EULA that allows use on 1 CPU
    If someone wants to pirate the SW, they will just have to live with the Owners name and company. You will get no corporate piracy. Only limited individual distribution.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  124. Not strictly hit or miss. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "See, that's because you are unreasonable. Most people will gladly pay a fair price for a good product"

    Wow! A website full of unreasonable products.

    "It's when we have to pay exorbitant prices for buggy products that we get upset and go to your competitor. "

    Except they're having the same problem.

    "And when you throw in "get treated like a thief", that just about guarantees that we'll rush to your competitor."

    Yeah, sure. Much like Saddams "human shields". You're not being treated "like a thief". It's just that the thieves will not stand up and take it "like a thief".

    "I would also like a pizza delivered by a dozen naked supermodels (if only to make my neighbor green with envy), but I'd expect to pay quite a lot for that service."

    Until it becomes available on Pirate Bay. Then all bets are off.

    1. Re:Not strictly hit or miss. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that we should pay exorbitant prices for buggy products and be happy about it?

      You must work for Microsoft.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Not strictly hit or miss. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      wow you just dont get it do you kid? how does the writer of a piece of photo editing software compete with people offering photoshop, pirated for free? you think that adobe should drop the price to $0 to compete with the pirates? how do they get money to pay the developers? for fucks sake take off your anti-business anti-drm pro-piracy bullshit blinkers and think it through.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    3. Re:Not strictly hit or miss. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      how does the writer of a piece of photo editing software compete with people offering photoshop, pirated for free?
      How did cable television compete with free TV? By offering something better, or more interesting, or targeted to a specific audience.

      I'm sure there were lots of people saying "how does the operator of a cable TV service compete with people offering known-quantity, big stars, popular shows offered for free?". Yet, somehow they managed.

      Cliffski, I think you just may be looking at the problem too narrowly.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  125. "Phoning Home" activation sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a big problem with Software that requires that you 'phone home' to install/activate it, etc. The problem is that, unless the software *is* an online service, I should be able to install and use it even if, for example, *you* have gone out of business. The problem with 'phone home' activation server technology is it leaves your customer's up a creek if the activation server is not available. Maybe it's a temporary outage due to a natural disaster, like earthquake, hurricane, or fires. Maybe it's a power-grid failure (blackouts/brownouts) that takes your data center off the net. Maybe somebody cuts your data center's data-line, taking it off the Internet.

    Maybe the customer is trying to use your software somewhere where they can't get Internet access, like a military user in Afghanistan or Iraq, or somewhere in Africa (yes, I know there are plenty of places in Africa that *do* have internet connectivity, but there are also plenty that don't), or even just somewhere extremely remote and rural in North America.

    Activation schemes that require both the customer and your company to be online at the time of installation means you could leave some people now, or in the future, unable to install the software they legitimately purchased.

  126. That download always works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what's the lesson here? That the majority are selfish and would rather do something that would benefit themselves over doing something that would benefit others? Conflicts with too many people's self-image.The sad thing is that otherwise intelligent people don't realize you can't build a society upon a purely selfish population, and that's were humanities headed. Half selfish? Sure. Completely altruistic? Definitely. But a population were the predators outnumber the prey soon goes extinct.

  127. Just enough . . . by Dausha · · Score: 1

    Contact a competent IP Law attorney with experience protecting software. He will instruct you about how much protection is enough to enforce the appropriate copyright law. For example, in the U.S., you need DRM to be safe. Asking /. is like asking a virgin what's it like not being a virgin.

    --
    What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
  128. Speaking as a very successful downloader.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The answers are:

            * Provide them with a software key that is uniquely theirs so they have the means to protect their investment in us, not so we can attack them.

    Apple does this and they took some slash-heat for it.

            * Never, ever disable, restrict, or otherwise cripple a customer's product.

    Except for demos.

            * Provide a means so they can legitimately share our software so as to spread the word.

    Or provide a link to our homepage and we do all the work.

            * Price software reasonably; if the market is large, price low. If small, price higher.

    There's that word. "Reasonably" should be an athlete considering all the twist and turns it's put through.

            * Be valuable: Provide strong functionality. Remain valuable: Fix it, improve it, be helpful.

    Well that's a given.

            * If someone wants a key and can't pay for it or wants to look before they leap, just give them one. Really. Doesn't hurt a thing. People who won't or can't pay aren't going to anyway. Better they use our stuff than our competitor's; better to make them happy than annoy them; better to see to it there's no value to an underground trade, because hacked software presents a security risk to us all.

    It's called a demo. It was created to address this very issue.

            * Last, but not least, don't burden our customers with "agreements" or "licenses." We wrote stuff, they paid for it. Done deal. Now it's up to us to add value to the product so they'll continue to boost our positions by using our support; spreading the word, the demo, the results.
    "

    We're talking about business software. The very idea runs on agreements.

  129. I would pay for your product (if I'm not already)! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know the people who will insist on paying you when you mom their lawn, carry groceries, etc.? Those are the socialized, economically stable majority. They'll pay for good stuff as long as you price it sensibly and shovel value at them like it is going out of style (it actually seems to be in some cases, so use that instead of being part of it.) There is simply no need to go to war with everyone else - be a leg up instead of an obstacle to overcome. You are very perceptive! I paid for multiple copies of Red Hat versions 4 through 9; I went out of my way to get the box sets instead of just downloading it for free.

    I didn't pay them because I had to, I paid them because I wanted them to succeed! Their products were helping me succeed, and I wanted them to continue to provide value to me, so they needed to stay in business. Paying for value received is enlightened self-interest.

    Unfortunately, in the case of Red Hat, their "Enterprise 5" version has increased the registration nuisance level so much that I will probably jump ship to something that doesn't make me generate giant code number bullshit. It's a waste of my time and I won't pay people to waste my time. I'll probably go to Centos for compatibility reasons, but if I can find a vendor that works like Red Hat used to, I'll happily pay them.
  130. Re:As long as it's fully transparent, most don't c by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Hurm? The US has some law against telling me that you're company X, using my product with license key Y?

    Ok, time to move to another country.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  131. "Most"? by seebs · · Score: 1

    Define your terms. Put numbers on them.

    How many paying users are you willing to inconvenience, and how severely? How much do you want to discourage pirates?

    Here is the blunt reality: Whatever you think you are doing to pirates will happen to legitimate, paid, users. It will. You cannot prevent this. No amount of trying to avoid it will make it not happen. It won't happen to every user, but it will happen to some.

    So, first off: Pick something that will not piss people off too much when it happens to them.

    I recommend polite nagware. A key component of your strategy should be letting users get the functionality they paid for until you have time to fix the problem with your copy protection; nagware resolves this.

    You cannot prevent people from copying software if they really want to; what you can do is encourage them not to want to. Treating your customers like thieves won't work; treating your pirates like customers might.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  132. Pragmatically Speaking by lib3rtarian · · Score: 1

    I think that pragmatically speaking it is acceptable for your product to phone home with only information that is relevant to your product (the license key and installation ID). You can then compare that to your database, and include a mode to lock functionality if a certain signal is received on the client. I see this is acceptable means of protecting your investment and hard work. I also think you should be up front with this in your license.

  133. What's the Right Amount of Blame? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Software and other 'virtual' items have *zero marginal cost of production* (unlike your clothing store example). If someone (again, who would not have bought your product anyway) 'steals' your software, you lose nothing. Zip. Nada. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to get their heads around, but it's true."

    Oh Lord! Even when you provide a clue in your own post, you miss the truth. Let me refresh your memory "It's like this - if you make something you have the cost to develop the product, then the cost to copy that product.". Marginal cost doesn't address the first cost. The selling of copies does however aka mass manufacturing aka distributing a large cost over many items equaling a low cost item per a person (sheesh! I can't believe I'm explaining economics). Also your "marginal cost" doesn't address entertainment on a physical media.

  134. You've Got to be Kidding by kilgortrout · · Score: 1

    Asking the slashdot community for advice on copy protection is like asking the KKK for advice on racial harmony.

  135. Not doable by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

    There are legitimate reasons to copy software ( use it at different machines, at different places, making backups etc.. ). If you allow that then it will be trivial for people to copy the software without permission, and if you don't allow it then you have restricted your users from doing something they normally would expect to be able to. The only way to get around this would be to have someone or something constantly monitor what users do with their software, and that would be a gross violation of privacy. Thus if you plan to respect your user's privacy you won't be able to have an effective copy prevention scheme. It really does boil down to that.

    Solution? Rather than trying to make life hard for people who doesn't want to pay, add in some form of service or other cookie to advantage those who does, thus providing an incentive to go legit. If you're making a game, consider making it on-line multi player and charge people for using your servers. If you are making development software for business, include support or other goodies in the contract. Accept reality and adapt your business model.

  136. No copy-protection by dskoll · · Score: 1

    We sell commercial software. It requires a license key.

    However, our software ships with source, so it would be trivial for anyone to disable the license-key check. Basically, the purpose of the license key is to remind honest customers when it's time to renew maintenance/support.

    We recognize that anyone determined to rip us off will rip us off, and we're not about to make our honest customers' lives more difficult because of a few crooks.

    Phoning home if it's not prominently disclosed up front is completely unethical. So is remotely disabling software (and that might even be illegal in some circumstances.)

  137. Do what your customers expect by Exp315 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lots of good comments here already, but what the heck - always room for a few more. I was a shareware vendor for many years, and now I run a small software company offering commercial products. I've dealt with this issue for a long time, so I can offer a few observations. The first thing I would say is "do what your customers expect". In some markets, people expect to have to enter a serial number, but nothing more. In other markets, people expect to use a hardware dongle with the software. If you find out what others are doing and do the same, you won't violate your customers' expectations. They will perceive you as a responsible, professional vendor, while accepting a modest amount of inconvenience. Most new software vendors tend to err on the side of too much copy protection, because they over-estimate the value of their work and they get really pissed-off at the thought of people stealing it. You should be so lucky! Cut whatever you had in mind in half, and do what must to deal with piracy later if you are fortunate enough to have your software widely copied and used. Most business and professional software users are pretty responsible about paying for the software they use. A very modest speed bump that lets them notice if they are using a non-legitimate copy is generally sufficient. In every successful company I have ever worked at, there's a clear policy that all commercial software in use must be properly licensed and paid for. Not that there isn't some unofficial copying going on, but it has to stay below the level that comes to anyone's official attention. My company is very careful to protect the value of its commercial products, but never in a way that gets beyond customer expectations. In various markets we use registration codes, timeouts, permanent personal registration of software copies, and even hardware dongles. All have their value, but it's never worth losing customers over this issue. Any legitimate customer complaints, and we would back right off and offer an acceptable alternative. That's business. Personal software is another matter. As a shareware author I always made sure that my trial versions remained useful even if never registered, and I always encouraged users to ask their support questions even if they weren't registered. Based on the support questions and the number of downloads versus paid registrations, I would estimate about a 10:1 ratio between users and paying customers. Did that make me unhappy? Not at all! Most of those unpaid users would never pay for the software anyway, but by using it they are spreading the word and helping me test and improve the product. Plus I don't mind doing a little bit to improve the world for free as long as I'm getting an adequate return on my personal time investment.

  138. E-license makes ti easier by poetmatt · · Score: 1

    Pleasse note that all you have done with Elicense is that instead of having to unwrap the program, you simply have to impersonate Elicense. Done and done. Look up DAMN Elicense Proxy - Sometimes called DAMN Eproxy. All it does is tells your computer to use a local proxy that "automagically" was able to provide the proper E-License authorization. Auth servers somewhere around 192.168.1.1,hmm?

    The crack is just as painless as the "install" was.
    Therefore, man in the middle attack wins when you cannot have things 100% secure on both ends. Also, DAMN Eproxy/etc has been around since the days of the CRT programs that used it, which no longer do.

  139. Another answer by optimus2861 · · Score: 1
    The project & time management suite we use in our firm is a server-client setup. All the data is stored in a SQL database on the server, and accessed through client tools. The client tools are unrestricted; we can install them on as many machines as we like. It's the server that handles the licensing, and it does it by number of employees stored in the database. If the license only allows 20 employees, then you simply can't add employee #21 to the database. Call up the vendor and order some more licenses.

    I think this is a good compromise - we can't go over our licensed limit but we can wipe/reinstall/move the client software around as much as we need. The software has enough value to us that we'd never consider trying to work around the restrictions by doing something like accessing the SQL database directly - too much of a PITA. We add more employees, we add more licenses. Easy.

  140. My opinion by Spazmania · · Score: 1

    Give each installed copy a registration number and deny updates with a message about "Your copy has a registration problem. See your system administrator or vendor for assistance." Also provide a "update attempt history" button which shows a log of date/time/ip addresses which have attempted updates. Let them know you're watching. Otherwise leave it fully functional with whatever updates have already been installed.

    Nothing you can do will stop folks from pirating your software if that is their intention. A mild message like the above will help keep the honest people honest without causing nasty headaches.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  141. Our approach by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

    I work for a company that sells -very- expensive software. As in 6 figures/year in licensing fees for a single installation. We use a license key that is generated as part of the build process. When customers install, they are required to contact us for a valid license key, which is then hidden in the libraries. This works well, and is reasonably non-intrusive. It does not prevent the customer from making copies, though I have an enhancement request it to hash the key with a CPU ID to require use of the install disk and re-request of a license key on an install. I asked for this, because I caught a customer installing the software on multiple machines in violation of the license.

    In three years, I have NEVER had a customer even squeak about this process. However, we provide very high touch support, in sharp contrast to many companies out there.

    --
    I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    1. Re:Our approach by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      And three years is *such* a long time. What happens when your company goes out of business? This happened to me at a company I was working for. Bad timing on our part I guess. Our $15,000 USD/seat software was bought out by a large foreign company and not supported after that. Tough luck right? Would you understand if that same company now hesitated to purchase your software in favor of a competitor with less restrictive licensing methods. Or, if there are no competitors, just not purchase it at all if they have that choice? At the very least there should be a method for freeing such licenses when a company goes out of business or is purchased (or whatever).

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    2. Re:Our approach by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry I struck a nerve. Our company is a fortune 500 firm with 9 figures of net income. Not sales, income. I think our customers are OK. Not to put too fine a point on it, I was responding to the fellow who was looking for advice from other software vendors.

      There aren't any other vendors who provide what we do. If there were, we wouldn't be able to charge what we do. Since the software provides extremely high value, the last thing on the list of procurement criteria is an assessment of whether the GPL weenies in the basement approve of our licensing scheme. The folks who cut the check don't care. The folks who use our software don't care. And if they write the license code down and save it, they can always reinstall from the media, even if we disappear from the face of the earth.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    3. Re:Our approach by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      And if they write the license code down and save it, they can always reinstall from the media, even if we disappear from the face of the earth.

      Actually that seems reasonable. After our particular software vendor went out of business some of our computers failed (over time) and there was no point in replacing or repairing them since the unique install ID would change. I wasn't objecting to your price actually, just to the practice of requiring a unique install ID and callback for a license in order to do a fresh install. Especially when you are paying that kind of money. There aren't many software companies that can guarantee to stay in business forever. Once you've been on the wrong end of that scenario it kind of changes your perspective. The idea is not to punish paying customers for being customers. None of the purchasing decisions were mine. I didn't take any heat for the loss of the seats and the inability to ever upgrade the hardware that still worked, but I saw the frustration and disbelief from what resulted. You can bet that if I had had the skill at the time to crack the license manager, I would have. The company was no longer in business. There was no one to complain about such cracking. My manager would have been ecstatic (small company).
      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    4. Re:Our approach by RMH101 · · Score: 1
      ...for *really* high value (read: specialist software, written to give your business enough of an advantage to be worth paying a lot for) then there's not usually much of a market for illegal copies. Joe Punter at home doesn't have much use for an Enterprise Resource Planning application, for example. The corporates are terrified of using unlicenced software, and so possibly in these situations you don't need any protection.

      Things are very different if you've just written a really cool app that home users would like, though...

  142. Examples of to much by sheepofblue · · Score: 1

    When I pay for music and cannot put it on the device of my choice it is to much. When there is a scheme that requires your company (which may go out of business) to activate it is to much When I must insert the CD/DVD to use it despite having plenty of harddrive space it is to much When it is easier for a pirate to use than me a paying customer it is to much

  143. Less is more. by notthe9 · · Score: 1

    You've come to /., so of course you expect to hear this, but the less, the better. Whatever you write can be pirated if someone puts forth the effort. Since your target group is corporate users, you aren't likely to run into too much piracy. In the event that a corporation is going to pirate your software, there's really not much you can do to to prevent that.

    For this reason, provide enough copy protection to enforce your license without trying to prevent intentional piracy (a futile effort). Do not let it regularly phone home and do not require a license daemon (Elicense or what have you). You do nothing but hurt legitimate users that way. Flag everyone when it looks like something has gone down (so that there can't be "accidental" piracy), but don't affect the day-to-day working of your software.

    I don't know how many customers you'd lose with overly-annoying licensing—I really haven't been around enough to know. I do know I've seen nasty stuff with invasive license managers and have told the IT department here about software with more reasonable licenses. I do know that I've installed inferior software on my workstation because I was tired of periodic license SNAFUs. I do know that on the company machine I admin, there is some fairly old, expensive software I still use for the sole reason that the license is a piece of paper sitting in the filing cabinet.

  144. Zero by Tom · · Score: 1

    Personally, I think zero is the proper amount of copy-protection.

    A good cracked copy will have all of your stuff removed or disabled. In other words, it will be more convenient for the user. Is that the message you want to give? That copying your software gives you a better experience than buying it?

    If that's an option, you should look for a solution in the opposite direction: Added value for the honest customer. Add a quick-reference sheet into the package. Free support (at least for a limited time). A good, printed manual. Stuff that makes a bought copy worth more than a cracked copy.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  145. Depends by unck+nown · · Score: 1

    In the practical sense, the point of copy protection is to keep the honest users honest. Those properly motivated will certainly find a way around it. What you probably want is to find the sweet spot between no copy protection and pointless or too strict copy protection.

    This will probably vary depending on the popularity of your software and other business concerns. For example if Winzip was to enforce their copy protection, users would just flock to WinRar or other competing applications (some freeware) who don't enforce as strictly. In Windows' case a full internet activation suite is suitable because of how big a target they are for piracy.

    For small markets/developers, you'll probably only need an enforced activation key. You move into a question of diminishing returns - how much coding time vs. money you make from more complying users.

  146. What type of corporate software do you mean? by dfsteen · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Really there are two types of machines that corporations use - employee PCs and servers. These have different requirements. While a nag screen may

    work on employee PCs it definitely won't work on servers that need to be able to reboot by themselves (and if the nag screen does not halt booting of the program than you have not accomplished anything as in many cases no-one will see it). In the same way you *MAY* get away with phone home software on a PC, but it definitely would not work on a server - especially one that may not have any direct internet access.

    I would agree with previous posters that a one time installation code would be acceptable, and even perhaps one that expires over time (though that would certainly be annoying) as long as the process to upgrade is easily scriptable.

    For employee PCs you might be able to get away with a call-in-on-boot type scheme as long as it uses standard protocols like http or ftp. But I would certainly understand people balking at this sort of thing.

    It depends on where your software is intended to be installed.

  147. This is a business decision by edraven · · Score: 1

    Put together a cost/benefit analysis. How much money do pirate copies of your software cost you? Spending more than that developing a solution just isn't good business.

    The tricky part of course is estimating how much piracy costs your business. You have to have some idea of how many pirate copies exist (and pirates aren't known for reporting these figures), but more than that you have to know what percentage of those users would buy your software if pirating it were not an option (again, difficult numbers to do more than guess at). Because really the mere existence of these copies costs you nothing (unless they provide access to a service for which you maintain servers, bandwidth, etc.).

    It's a little bit apples to oranges, but one industry example that's interesting to look at is the restaurant industry. The old dine-and-dash definitely costs the restaurant money: they consume food which has a measurable cost in purchasing and labor for preparation. At the low end, fast-food restaurants avoid this cost by requiring the consumer to pay before receiving their food. Above that level, however, restaurants seem to rely mainly on the honour system.

    At the end of the day, I personally would recommend a less is better approach because I'd estimate the kind of people who pirate your software aren't the same kind of people who buy your software. Remember that your software doesn't exist to enforce morality or punish the guilty. It exists to make money for you. You don't profit by reducing the number of pirate copies. You profit by increasing the number of legitimate copies. If the approach you take to increasing legitimate copies also increases pirate copies, keep in mind that that doesn't cost you money. If the approach you take to reducing pirate copies costs you money and ends up reducing legitimate copies, that's a lose-lose.

  148. Site Licensing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about selling site licenses instead.

  149. some thoughts by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

    1. Any form of breakable anti-copy, anti-crack protection will add value to any cracked version that is eventually released. This means that even your paying customers would be well advised to actually use the potentially faster and more efficient software that lacks the protection.

    2. It is not easy to determine how effective the protection will be before release into the wild. A dongle is usually presumed to be the most effective form, however the major inconvenience of such a tool will strongly encourage hackers to work on an emulation or a cracked binary, if necessary as a long term project. Requiring callback activation is another form that is so intrusive that again you are strongly encouraging it to be cracked eventually. Also the cost of such systems can be prohibitive depending on the cost per unit.

    3. Some software desperately needs a form of virtually unbreakable protection in order to be viable. Complex (PC) computer games with long dev cycles are one example. Many of these games simply cannot recoup their costs at the current pricing model of $30-$60 per unit (especially with modern levels of P2P distribution), but at $100 to $200 per copy could do so without problem. Most development has simply stopped on such games in favor of simpler or more mainstream oriented games (pretty Doom clones mostly). And console development is favored by such a market since such games are both cheaper (with short dev cycles) and often have more difficult copy protection features that often require the use of a hardware mod in order to 'pirate'.

    I would happily pay $200 for the release of an Arx Fatalis 2 for instance. Or a sequel-in-spirit to Planescape:Torment or an Ultima Underworld III. I realize that not everyone is willing to pay that much for such games, but consider that cutting edge graphics cards are getting around $600 per unit, whose only purpose is (generally) to play games and which will be obsolete within 1-2 years, and consider that at such high prices you could afford to lose half your customers and still make twice as much back on your investment. Although dongles do add quite a bit of cost per unit sold. It is possible that with this additional cost, plus all the additional dev costs involved in such sophisticated copy/crack protection, game developers would again not be able to recoup their costs. And even after all of this there is still no guarantee that it wouldn't be broken. Just look at Cubase to see an example of how far crackers can be willing to go at times.

    Perhaps with something extremely intrusive like server or telephone activation combined with individually customized USB dongles along with random word challenges from the beautifully illustrated 300+ page leather-bound (ahem) user manual at install time. Perhaps the software would require a so called "secure computer" with a TPM on the motherboard and a TPM enabled OS in order to run. Although god knows how you could prevent the binary from being cracked to just leave out the TPM checks. Selling a long binary number for a price does not seem like it's going to get any easier.

    I dislike copy protection and will nearly always download and use the cracked versions even if I have bought the legit one in order to keep the original copies in good condition (still shrink wrapped) and for the ease of use and often speed of the cracked version. However what I am talking about here is a type of software that is on its way to extinction as an indirect result of the lack of sufficiently robust anti-crack/anti-copy systems. Actually, even in the case of a $199 computer game, preventing the distribution of cracked versions is even more important than copy protection per se. Anyone who buys a $200 game is going to want to be able to back it up without worries. P2P is the primary threat to such a business model these days, not the possible sharing of copies with friends.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  150. A word to the wise by sjames · · Score: 1

    You have it somewhat easy since the product isn't "fun" or targeted to home users or one man businesses. You'll have less problems with unlicensed copies in the first place.

    If you must have some sort of protection, a simple word to the wise should be enough. That is, an activation key to be entered one time. If the key is missing or incorrect, simply open a dialog with a place to enter the key and a phone number (preferably toll-free) to report problems or get assistance. The program should operate normally even if the user clicks cancel. The key could be as simple as an RSA encryption of the MAC address. If you key it to MAC, the dialog should display the MAC so your support people will be able to generate the correct key.

    That will be enough. Corporations are risk averse when it comes to license violations. If they cheat, they will know that any disgruntled employee might call that toll-free number to report the problem.

    If your copy protection is much more bothersome than that, it will either be cracked by admins tired of getting support tickets on it or it'll get a bad reputation and a competing product will be used instead.

  151. Better Solution: by fast+turtle · · Score: 1
    Provide the software as a live CD that's encrypted with a single use code. Require the CD be in the drive as many apps now do while keeping the data files either local or network stored. Further more, ensure that legitimate customers can easily use it from a CD Jukebox (network based) as this provides the Simplest solution to enforcing per/seat liscensing. Include a simple counter in the application that +/- during use by employees.

    The advantages is an easy to maintain license agreement and if people start having problems, the network admin can investigate who's using the program and leaving it running unneccessarily. If it's an unauthorized employee, they can then deal with the issue internally while not having the threat of activation or other issues. It also ensures that they will purchase upgraded license without having to scream about use.

    As part of this seat base license, sell something like a 25 seat license with that as the soft license but don't be afraid of setting a hard license check of 30. This allows for the system issues (lockups/crash/dead) while ensuring that if the company finds the product to be useful, they will be willing to purchase an upgraded license at a reasonable cost.

    The main thing is to ensure that you have a useful product and that any business has an easy time managing said useful product without issues.

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  152. Two groups by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    There are two groups of people out there today: those that will pay for your software and those that will not. There are some fence-sitters that might pay or might not depending on who gets to them first.

    The people that are going to pay may try to cheat you a little on the number of machines it is installed on. This needs to be guarded against as the difference between selling 10 units or 10,000 units is quite a bit. You will find this sort of thing pretty common, even with companies that officially decry any use of pirated software. They may think they aren't really doing anything wrong until you tell them and/or make it difficult.

    The people that aren't going to pay are not going to pay you no matter what you do. They will find some way of getting the software for free. Obviously, you would like to prevent that. It is probably a waste of time. They have far more resources than you do and they aren't going to give up, ever. Hope for legitimate customers that pay.

    The fence sitters are difficult to identify. If your software ends up on the "OEM Software Sales" web sites this eases everone's mind - it isn't stealing when you pay for it. This would be something to avoid at all costs because it makes the fence sitter's mind up for them. If you have any kind of customer outreach you need to make it clear that the only real source for the software is to buy it from you. Buy. Not steal. I don't believe in any community there are more than 10-15% of "fence sitters". The rest fall into the two groups described above.

    The comments about making the software too difficult to use without support and training is pretty funny. The people doing that aren't doing themselves, their customers, or anyone involved with software a favor. They give the whole software development community a black eye.

  153. Re:As long as it's fully transparent, most don't c by ch0ad · · Score: 1

    i have no idea about the us but i imagine they have similar laws. i study computing in britain and we are taught about the data protection act, which includes forbidding companies to keep personal records about anyone unless they have a specific reason to; for example a garage wouldnt need to know how many children you have, and so has no right to keep that information about you.

    just the company name and the key would not be so bad but you (or whoever the original poster was) said key information about himself, implying personal details

  154. Bloodthirsty License Agreement by linear+a · · Score: 1

    Use this. --- Bloodthirsty License Agreement --- This is where the bloodthirsty license agreement is supposed to go, explaining that Interactive Easyflow is a copyrighted package licensed for use by a single person, and sternly warning you not to pirate copies of it and explaining, in detail, the gory consequences if you do. We know that you are an honest person, and are not going to go around pirating copies of Interactive Easyflow; this is just as well with us since we worked hard to perfect it and selling copies of it is our only method of making anything out of all the hard work. If, on the other hand, you are one of those few people who do go around pirating copies of software you probably aren't going to pay much attention to a license agreement, bloodthirsty or not. Just keep your doors locked and look out for the HavenTree attack shark.

  155. So naive... by KingSkippus · · Score: 1

    If he can't stay in business why would he care if you use the software.

    With that attitude, I hope I'm not using your software. As weird as you may think this is, whether or not your software can outlive your company is a major concern when big businesses buy software. (Fortune 100 company here.) Maybe you're used to dealing with nickel-and-dime outfits, and if that's who you want your customers to be, then more power to you. Thanks, buh-bye.

    my sales would be 10x less, i'd have to charge 10x more,

    Boy are you naive! Because as it is, if your software is remotely popular, pirates will crack any licensing scheme you come up with, you'll still have "10x less" sales (I'd love to see your evidence for anything remotely close to that), you'll be selling the software for the same amount of money as you do now (unless you want your competitors to undercut you in a major kind of way), and the ONLY thing you will have accomplished is that you will have spent a ton of money on a useless licensing scheme, ticked off your customers, and kept from selling software to people who care about these things.

    Of course, that sounds like your goal, so congratulations, you're probably meeting it with spectacular success...

    1. Re:So naive... by itwerx · · Score: 1

      whether or not your software can outlive your company is a major concern when big businesses buy software.

      I've seen numerous cases where a Fortune x00 company simply bought out a small vendor, lock, stock and barrel, just to ensure long term continuity of development and support for some key business application or unique hardware component.
            Similarly, we have a couple of clients that do classified work for the DoD and while cost is no object, for some projects they are required to provide business operations and support continuity plans with up to a 30-year time horizon!

  156. None and some by shaitand · · Score: 1

    'How much copy protection is appropriate?'

    Digital Watermarking with sufficient warnings and notification. Preferably something visible that identifies the owner of the software. Depending on the function of the software, you might even have it check for other copies on the local network to make sure they have unique footprints and complain if they don't (I wouldn't have it deactivate though).

    Any key code, registration, activation scheme is obtrusive to the users. Watermarking is not obtrusive to a genuine user, especially if it displaying their own information. That same user isn't going to let someone else have the software in that case either.

    The pirates will remove the marking, just as they would remove any other scheme you setup. You don't want to get into a battle with the pirates anyway, its a serious waste of time and resources that could be spent making new products or improving this one. It doesn't matter if a billion people pirate the software as they are a billion that wouldn't have purchased the software. If they wouldn't have purchased the software or its unlikely they would have then they are free advertising. Because the pirate copies won't have marking (pirates do the minimum to remove the protection, they won't bother with faking marking to replace it; they will probably replace the user info with a warez distributor logo) they will be easy to distinguish from legitimate copies and businesses will want no part of them.

  157. Re:As long as it's fully transparent, most don't c by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Key information as in "enough information to identify you as you". In case of a company, that would most likely be company name and some UID number (tax number or whatever). In case of a person, most likely name and address. I don't care how many kids you have or how much you earn a month. Appearantly enough to buy my software, that's all I care about. :)

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  158. Stamp the users name on the copy. by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

    Have them enter their reg info on your website and get their license key, where you insert the users info encrypted into the software via the key such that it identifies the legal owner on startup. That can discourage legal owners from letting copies get out, without hampering the actual software operation. While pirates can patch it out, and it may be possible to register with bogus info, this is a pretty easy thing to do and does not impair users as the code does not otherwise restrict the usage of the product.

    Users who do not have web access can get a license code over the phone which will input the same info--- it is often done with a combination of a license key and name information which are tied together so the license info they have will only work if they enter their name correctly into the products licensing screen. For example, the license code can contain a CRC of the customer info for example-- the customer calls in wanting to turn on the software, you have them fill out the reg info in the product itself and give you the key that *it* generates based on the entry of their name info. You then input that key to your system, validate their info and give them a license key that only works on the system that has the user info entered as they did.

    I think you get the general idea. Check the web for similar schemes and fine tune it to your product, but this is probably the best way to discourage the use of casual illegal copies. The crack will likely end up being to patch the startup screen to say "Licensed to TheCrackCrew" which will advertise that it's a cracked copy on startup...

  159. Make it work by ^_^x · · Score: 1

    Whatever you go for, say a serial number, make it absolutely integral to the function of the program - don't bolt it on at the end. That way if something circumvents it, it's still broken. Perhaps make some controls on the main window manifest through a mathematical equasion on the serial. After that I shouldn't have to say this, but - make absolutely certain it works reliably.

    I hate programs that phone home, but if you just activate it online - no - if you just REPORT its activation online so you can keep tabs on it, I would not mind OS version, IP address, program version, and a timestamp. That way the program will not break if it cannot get a license from an online source, but if lots of people start using the same serial, you will know and can trace it back to the first user with some degree of success.

    The modern move (Securom, Adobe, Windows) to requiring online registration to work, and in some cases using up a finite number of activations is totally wrong. Secure, yes. Good for the user? I think most of the time it just blows up for legitamite users. True pirates will find a way around it if they want it badly enough, and it's important of course not to catch the valid users in the crossfire in the war on piracy.

    Then again, also consider what you're protecting and how much effort is required. I've seen programs with nice elaborate systems that are small $20 shareware apps that probably didn't warrant that kind of defense or rather the time and effort to implement it.

    Just some opinion and food for thought for you...

  160. Web Service by bitspotter · · Score: 1

    Copy protection (DRM by another name) doesn't "prevent most piracy".

    What you want is not a software application, but a website. Run the service on your own systems, that way you can retain control over it, instead of your users. It works for countless applications.

    Web services effectively end runs the freedoms advocated by the Free Software movement, and effectively eliminates the piracy problem without resorting to proprietary licensing or futile DRM or copy protection. That's why every business that still operates by resorting to user lock-in is moving to it.

    I might sound a bit bitter and hostile here, but them's the facts as I see them. I also don't know if it's feasible to make your particular application a web app, but them's the breaks.

  161. Customize by HiThere · · Score: 1

    It's more expensive for you, but customize each copy, and embed a check-sum so that it won't work if the user's name is altered.

    This means that if someone's copy is copied, then the copy contains that customer's id.

    At start-up time, flash a brief dialog that includes the phrase "This copy licensed to ...", so they'll know that if they share it, the id of the sharer is included.

    You also need to include in you contract that you have the right to cancel all further services without additional payment if the copyright is violated. (Phrase it better. IANAL.)

    This exposes the customer to threat of copyright violation suit if their copy is distributed over the net. OTOH, you've got to generate each copy separately. For best security, each copy should be separately compiled, with the name and check-sum included in the main body of the code (under mild encryption, rot17 might be good enough, or rot17 & byteswap).

    N.B.: This doesn't interfere with copying. It shouldn't impinge on any legal use. And it allows multiple backups. It's more trouble for YOU. (That's fair. You're the one being "paranoid".)

    FWIW, I'd also be sure to include a copyright notice, and a brief statement that distribution of copies to others is prohibited. This isn't legally necessary, but it seems to be what you are after, so it would be kind to tell people how you want them to act.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  162. user's name in software by spirit55 · · Score: 1

    I write software for teachers and schools on a very small scale. When I sell a copy I put the buyer's name or school name in an encrypted file with the software. The user is free to install on as many computers as he likes, but his name will appear on all printouts. This is very unobtrusive for the legitimate user. It is not perfect. I watched a vice principal white out the name of another school on all the mark printouts he posted in his classroom for a whole year. I occasionally get a call from a teacher who asks innocently how to get rid of the name of another teacher on her printouts.

  163. trust your customers by chenski · · Score: 1

    For corporate customers that buy a single user license you'd want to audit them for upgrades. That is, if they want to upgrade, they need to prove to you the have the correct number of licenses. Corps tend to buy one license and use it everywhere. Aside from that, just the simple "here's my order number, give me an activation code" type of online thing would be most appropriate ihmo.

  164. Something that requires a crack, not a key by jamie(really) · · Score: 1

    Bottom line, if hackers can just create a key generator, or even just leak a key, then your application wont sell.

    If an end user can just type in a key from the internet, they will, and they know that they are safe. If they have to download a crack, i.e. an executable from someone who is already engaged in illegal hacking activity, then they will think twice before installing it on their system at work. They would be criminally liable for any loss of business to their company. Don't worry about a black screen of death: Any penalties you could implement will be removed by hackers, while chances are the hackers will deliver the real penalties for the lucky user.

    Once that decision is made, it doesn't matter what protection you use. They are all utterly defenseless against hackers. As long as the protection cannot be circumvented within a few hours by a typical end users, its good enough. For example, if its just a matter of dumping the jar file, looking at the output, and writing a new "licensing class", then it probably wont get purchased by many java programmers unless its less than $50.

    OTOH, your customer may force the choice upon you. One major American automotive manufacturer requires that all licensed software uses FlexLM. We have no choice to support it.

  165. How about... by torkus · · Score: 1

    How about skipping the phone-home-to-install and going with 'authentication for updates' scheme?

    Require a CD Key like most do for installs. Anything more than that becomes a headache for both the owner and the seller. it highly depends on your target audience and you have to consider that SOME piracy is a good thing. Call it advertizing and you break even. If your product is so good that 500,000 people will steal it then want updates and bug fixes...then you can add a big chunk of those as new sales.

    Giving things away is not always the same as giving away profits.

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  166. How 'bout some words? by JBHemlock · · Score: 1

    I'll just speak from personal experience here, without bringing in any of my philosophical views on DRM and copy protection.

    I'm a programmer for a large software company, mostly working on various versions of a well-known encyclopedia. Piracy has been a concern of various manager-types off and on over the years. I've personally worked on three different copy protection schemes for the encyclopedia, and have experience with a fourth, a timed trial system. Each of those schemes has caused headaches for legitimate users - some did not validate correctly with certain drives, some did not work with certain systems, some simply did not work for no reason I could figure out. One, using a well-known copy protection library, failed so often that I had to write a special "unlock" program at the last minute, to be shipped on the CDs with the encyclopedia, so that our product support folks could just tell people "run this program from the CD".

    At the same time, I saw no evidence that any of this did more than slightly annoy [i]real[/i] software pirates. I recall seeing a cracked version appear literally the day that our encyclopedia came out in stores.

    In the end, after all of this, I'm convinced that the most effective copy protection we ever did was to simply print "Please do not make illegal copies of this disc" on our CDs.

  167. Already forgotten about Oblivion have we? by greyfeld · · Score: 1

    I think the first few posters had the right idea. If you spend your time making the product fantastic instead of worrying about your mediocre product being copied, it will sell. Look at Bethesda's Oblivion. It was a fantastic product and they obviously spent a lot of time making it. What they didn't do was copy protect the PC version. You can make a straight DVD copy of the disk and it will play just as well as the original without having to use any fancy software to break the copy protection. Bethesda still sold millions and I actually own copies for both PC and PS3. As they said, spend your time making it a killer product and they will be happy to pay.

  168. Paypal? *I* wouldn't click on that link! by KWTm · · Score: 1

    If Paypal is the only option to pay, then I'm one of them people you'll never get any money from, even if we are willing to pay.

    I've donated to completely free (as in speech) programs before. One particular one had a Paypal button. I finally figured, hey, what the heck, let's try Paypal. Their web site said we could make credit card payments without setting up an actual Paypal account. I tried that. Didn't work (the web page looked broken --maybe they needed to run Javascript applets from five different domains or something). I finally contacted the author and said, "Hey, look, I want to give you money. Give me an address to mail the cheque to."

    So Paypal without account didn't work, and there's no way I'm going to actually set up a Paypal account. Give them some PO Box to mail a cheque to.

    --
    404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
    [GPG key in journal]
  169. yer funny by Deadplant · · Score: 1

    While I don't wish to burden legitimate users, I do want to prevent most piracy. That is very funny. BTW, I want to sleep with lots of beautiful women but I don't want to have to talk them and form relationships. What are my (legal) options?

    Snarky comments aside; here is your fundamental problem: There is no way to detect the legal status of a software licensing contract using software. It is not a property of the system you or programming on.

    Things like WGA and license key systems are an attempt to add a property to the system that represents the legal status of the user and then try to keep that flag in sync with reality.
    The only practical way we know of to keep this flag in sync with the actual users contract status is to force the user himself to keep it in sync. Usually this means manually copying a key from paper to the system when installing, re-installing, upgrading or moving the software.

    There really is no hope.
    Don't waste your time on it.

    oh wait, i thought of a way to do it!
    Just write software that nobody wants!
  170. Go ahead by paj1234 · · Score: 1

    You believe your customers are thieves. I suggest you treat them accordingly.

  171. Take a lesson from the big boys. by DJFM · · Score: 1

    Project management software? Who the heck wants project management software at home? Your target, as you say, is large-ish companies. Maybe it's different in the US (the news suggests it is), but here in NZ companies big enough to need project management software tend to have developed ethics, and will buy the software they need. They trade on their reputation, and doing illegal things tends to tarnish reputations. Don't worry about controlling, or even checking, them. Do every damn thing you can to make it easy for them, they're the ones paying you the big bucks. If you have a good product with no pain, they'll pay for it.

    So do a tiered approach - small numbers of copies get individual license keys. Large customers, wanting large numbers of licenses, get "site licenses", ie no controls. It works for a lot of "corporate" software I've come across. It even worked for Microsoft - they didn't get as big as they are on the back of the mess that is Vista's activation scheme; they got big on Windows and the key code you have to enter in, along with "corporate licenses" which just install without any of that nonsense. A big IT department rolling out 327 PCs doesn't want to muck about with individual license keys, they just want it to work.

    Sure, eventually a site license will leak out and become generally available. But by then you'll have upgraded your software and the old version will be out of date. Sure, there'll be cracks and bypasses and whatever, some people will be using your software without paying for it. Just figure it into the price and ignore it - it works for retail shops.

    For your peace of mind, sure, implement some sort of count-up if you feel you have to, but DON'T rely on it working, DON'T disable or alter the bahaviour of your software in any way if it fails. If you piss off the big companies, you're losing your big payers. Best thing is probably ask them to count how many users they have whenever they upgrade, and sell them that many licenses. Chances are you'll have a 1-10, 10-100, 100-1000 style pricing scheme anyway, so going from 327 users to 402 users won't make any difference anyway.

    Now if you were writing a game, something for the home market... *grin*

  172. Try a different business model by GWBasic · · Score: 1

    Try a different business model. Perhaps you can sell services or a server-based function?

  173. The only game to ever not be cracked by senigami · · Score: 1

    The only game that I have EVER found to not be copyable (and I have tried every method) is the old mac game called Transylvania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania_(computer_game) We owned the game but as it was on a floppy disk I always wanted to make backups. Every copy I made with various copy methods (which seemed to be a successful copy) would allow you to play the game. However when you kicked the stump, (which you had to do,) you got trapped underground with no way out. I have no idea what scheme they used but it was damn good.

    1. Re:The only game to ever not be cracked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's called a lie. (Laser Induced Error) If a specified track/sector on the disk returns an expected error, then do the next valid step; otherwise operate as if it's a pirated copy and quit working properly.

      Many software titles from the late 80's and early 90's used this method of copy protection. With CD installations and later downloaded installations, this method was no longer feasable.

  174. Hell yes by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I absolutely refuse to use it - make it FlexLM and I'm finding a new package, even if it costs me twice the package cost in training.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  175. Does Not Matter, But..... by markh.id.au · · Score: 1

    Really you are better off putting as little effort into it as possible. You will NOT beat the real pirates, it is too easy.

    However, one thing to look at is being compensated when your license / copyright is violated. If you put some (meaning minimal) protection in, it provides enough ammo for the lawyers to do something about. Most commercial organizations have some sort of IP lawyer that will work out if infringements are worth chasing down pretty quickly.

    Another important note, it should NEVER be the developers decision to put in copy protection. If the code is for your personal use, grow up, open source it. If the code is for commercial use, it is a business decision, not a technical decision, weather it is worthwhile to track down license violations

  176. None, and here's why: by avaspell · · Score: 1

    If your target audience is business customers, the simple answer here is none. And to rebut some of the other comments to the contrary, here's why: Businesses care about being legal It has been proven, time and time again, that it is cheaper for a business to have licenses for all software they use than the risk of not. Many of the major software companies recognize this, and also recognize that maintenance of a licensing system is both technically bad and bad for business. To back up this with evidence, look at software companies that don't put technical protection measures in place for business software: - Oracle - Computer Associates - Microsoft (This is a special case. Business customers get one key that always works, and that is only there because they sell the software in other markets). Now, here's what you do to help keep people honest and take care of your bottom line: - Make sure that your program installs and uninstalls itself correctly (I don't care what platforms you use), and make sure that your platform knows about it. There are lots of software solutions out there that let companies track what software is installed. If you make yourself visible to those solutions, then the IT department at that company will thank you, even if not vocally. - Occasionally look at how big some of your customers are, and periodically ask a couple of them to do software audits for you. You, of course, need to make sure that the right to ask for such an audit is in your EULA. - If a customer doesn't have enough licenses, ask them to settle up with you. Give them a discount, something to make settling up a relatively inexpensive operation. - If a customer refuses to settle up, hire a lawyer. Remember, at the end of the day, it is up to your customers to abide by your licensing terms. If they don't, they are breaking the law. That means little to a guy at home who isn't aware of the issues, but businesses of any meaningful size do care. Also, to go to some other comments noted here, make sure your software is the best. If businesses are stealing it, it's more than likely because there isn't enough value in the software for them to pay for it.

  177. How about.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None? Is that not even an option?

  178. What's the Right Amount of Crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    A book I recommend you read.

    This is the first book to explore in detail crime committed by the general public. Thomas Gabor challenges the prevailing stereotype of the criminal by documenting the extent to which ordinary citizens (those who are not habitually in conflict with the law) violate the law, exhibit dishonesty, or engage in actions harmful to their fellow citizens. He shows that so-called respectable citizens account for a large proportion of many kinds of crime: theft, fraud, tax evasion, assault, sex offences, business scams, political and corporate crime, environmental crime, technological crime, and mass lawlessness such as looting and vigilantism. He also discusses crime by police and other authorities in the justice system. Case studies provide concrete examples and raise crucial questions about law enforcement.

    By discussing the justifications and excuses ordinary people provide for their transgressions, Gabor draws a parallel between those justifications and the ones provided by chronic or hard-core criminals. He shows, through experimental and other evidence, that members of the public are often not firmly committed to society's laws or the legal system. Using existing theories in conjunction with an original, interdisciplinary theoretical model, he shows why criminality is so widespread, and why it varies from person to person, and from one milieu to another. He shows why some crimes are more prevalent than others, and why some people are more immune to being labelled and processed as criminals within the criminal justice system. He concludes with a discussion of approaches for dealing with widespread criminality.


    There's also a review of the book (non-free)
  179. phone home = download a crack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If your product phones home, I will download a crack. Doesn't matter if it is at work where I paid for it or for my home copy that I use 5 times a year. I won't be inconvenienced by copy protection. If it gets in my way I go around it. I bought Half Life 2 and yet played the cracked version. Next time I won't bother buying it, I won't go through that crap again with them.

  180. Not strictly on target. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must get lots of practice missing points. I'd tell you what you must be, but I'd get modded down.

  181. copy protection will lose you sales by MikeFM · · Score: 1

    I don't like entering activation codes and I do not allow software to call in. This kind of behavior is a large part of why I'm converting my work place to open source. It's time consuming to have to deal with these issues on a daily basis and when you have dozens of workstations spread out through several locations and each runs several applications that use these techniques you do end up dealing with it on a frequent basis. Being limited by the number of seat licenses we have is also a concern. Our expensive enterprise software just cut the number of licenses we had in half during the last upgrade because of a change in the publishers policy - a fact they didn't tell us until after we made the upgrade. So now we're developing our own front-end that will let multiple users share a license since they won't need to stay logged in when they aren't directly using the server.

    If you use copy protection schemes then most likely I won't use your software which means I won't buy your software. The best copy protection is to offer excellent service and manuals. That gives me a reason to give you money on an on-going basis.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  182. Don't phone home. Phoning around is OK, though by tillerman35 · · Score: 1

    I wrote a small app for a niche market and sold it with an activation key. To activate, you entered the order number, customer number, number of seats sold, and the key (which was a relatively simple hash of the first three). You could install as many copies as you wanted. The software broadcasted its licence over the local LAN as the payload of a custom layer-2 packet and listened on the LAN for that same packet type. If the number of distinct MAC addresses with the same licence exceeded the number of seats sold, you got a dunning message when you started and exited the program as well as when you tried to open or save file.

    The code to do this was trivial on the Sun pizza-boxes it ran on. It was damn near impossible to implement on a Windows box due to the variances in the dozens of primitive IP stacks of the time, which is why I never ported the app to a Gatesian OS.

    The license check was unobtrusive, used nearly no bandwidth, and didn't pose a risk to security or privacy since it neither phoned home (an idea that was really quite infeasable since widespread access to the internet wasn't in vogue at the time). It let the IT admins manage their licencing their own way, and if they wanted to invest the time to crack the hashing algorithm, well those were the sorts of folks who wouldn't pay anyway.

  183. Enough to stop trvial copying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would suggest just barely enough copy protection so that someone just giving a copy to their million best friends won't work.

    I don't suggest trying to get in an arms race with the pirates. However, I have seen lots of shareware and commercial software used FAR beyond the liscence terms, by a mixture of clueless users and people who will find a way to not to pay if they dont have to. So, in due fairness to you, I can't advise you to have NO copy protection.

    Personally, I don't see any easy way to do it; If you have to give the user the key, and they have the software, then you have trouble stopping them from giving both to all their friends. But you were asking for how much, rather than how-to, so I'll leave you with the above opinion.

  184. Sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know this is not an easy message to take to the business people but "Change your business model"

    If your model is based on selling someone a particular sequence of 1's and 0's (aka: software), you're as dead as the record industry.

    No matter what you do, at some point that sequence is copyable.

    You can make it up in enterprise level customer support, consulting, maintenance, backend storage, features not possible on the client. Things that cannot be copied.

    I think the reason the old SW model is *so* attractive is that it's *so* easy. Write a program, sell copies at negligible cost, offer effectively no support with a license that says the software doesn't even have to work and you have fat margins.

    Like all fat margin markets, their time passes. SW has passed.

    A nice model is to release a "light" version for free (or minimal cost), a "pro" version for more, with support for more and a simple serial number tied to an online password that allows the person access to support/updates.

    Price the SW reasonably and pick a good feature set for it and the market works fine. Free markets actually move to remove fat from the system. People tend to forget that.

    People who will steal in that situation were never going to buy it anyway. Spending all your time addressing the edge case is foolish.

  185. Easy... by diwolf · · Score: 1

    Here's what I'd do..

    Each person who buys the program downloads a *customized* download. It has their name, company name and address EMBEDDED in the program. No serial #'s, etc.. just a download that will install cleanly; but, with the contact info of the purchaser nicely embedded in the program. Look, no piracy.

    vBulletin does something similar with their product BTW...

  186. A CD-key. Decent pricing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A CD-key. And a big blank rectangle on the disc where your customers can write it down with a Sharpie if they choose.
    (Don't print "Write your CD key in this space!" though or you'll be responsible a lot of clueless users' scratched discs.)

    Decent pricing. Obvious sticker-rape breeds piracy out of spite.

    That's it.

    No. Matter. What. D.R.M. You. Use. There. WILL. Be. A. Crack.
    Pirates who want it will get your software. PERIOD.
    Customers will get your software after they have paid you for it. Don't abuse them. Please.

    Oh, one more thing! Please think about the font you'll use for your CD-Key as well. Codes like 0O1l2Z5S are rough on squint-eyed people like myself.

  187. Why don't you have your BAs draft requirements? by Snotman · · Score: 1

    It is imperative that the business understand security so they can make educated decisions and know how to measure it to determine if security is meeting their needs. After all, this is their product that they make money from and they should know their options and how to measure the success of those decisions. Otherwise, they are making a decision in a vacuum and that wastes money. There should be business value associated with every feature in an app because there is cost associated to implementing the feature.

  188. The proper amount of copy protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is NONE. I've been involved with PC's since the days of the Commodore PET and the Apple ][. Everything that came with copy protection was cracked easily. And it still is. My advice is to address the REASON for the piracy in the first place:

    * High pricing

    Price the product fairly and people will buy it. Give volume discounts for 5+ copies and people will pay for it.

    Make it EASY to download and pay for. No bullshit license codes to enter. Sell me a license code if you want, but don't make me key it into the software before using it.

    And I absolutely won't use software that forces me to "activate", "authenticate", or futz around with license daemons or hardware keys...

    Just trust the users and take care of them. Forget about the piracy - you can't stop it anyway, so the only thing you can compete on is customer service. Those who are licensed, get customer service. Those that don't, can self-support.

    That's the long and the short of it...

  189. Copy Protection... by goffster · · Score: 1

    Look at MySQL's model. They license under GPL. They *trust* you to pay up when
    use use their product significantly.

    Saves everyone a giant headache.

  190. How can you live there? by BarnabyWilde · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Well, very nicely, thank you.

    Don't bother coming here.

    That is, if it bothers you.

    We're doing just great without you.

    Thanks.

  191. THANKS! I can stop reading now. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks fyngyrz for the excellent post whcih is now printed and taped to my wall. :)

    To add something where little addition is necessary. There are those few apps that perform some trivial yet necessary role in the office. They often get copied past the number of licenses not so much to save money as to expedient things. The combination of a limited number of uses unless a key is entered combined with a reasonable price to purchase a new key, seems to be the most successful.

    If the price is low enough people will buy a new key rather then ask for the original to be re-sent. The price of a new key simply has to be more attractive then the hassle of finding the receipt from the original purchase. IMHO anything less then $100 fits that category for most businesses, and less the $50 for most individuals.

  192. Don't get ahead of yourself... by JavaIsCool · · Score: 1

    Do you have a name for your product? How about a marketing strategy? Superbowl ad?

  193. So you don't want business with big companies then by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    If your software calls home it will not be in any company with professional Systems Administrators.

    The moment I notice your product is calling home I would uninstall it and demand a refund.

    Look, you can screw the little guy that can't use Google (how many of those are left?) but with companies that are serious about security, any unknown shenanigans going on in the background, no matter the reason, will be met with firm rejection and may mean you losing business.

    In other words, as an IT person administering hundreds of computers: please, don't even try.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  194. Software protection a neccessary step by codeplay · · Score: 1

    You cannot stop software piracy, but you can add enough barriers to deter casual piracy as well as make it time consuming to maintain cracks for your titles. The first step is choosing a licensing system. You can do it yourself or acquire it, but make sure what ever system you deploy it contains a tamper proof license format. Without it, the first cracker to reverse engineer your software will create a key generator that any non-tech savy person can use to obtain your software illegally. Tamper proofing can be achieved via a system using digital signature of the license file. The next thing you will need is software protection technology, its purpose is to deter reverse engineering and tampering of your binaries. Without this the cracker would simply create a patch for any licensing/activation scheme you come up with by bypassing functions in assembly code. Some software protection solutions having been intrusive (i.e., Sony, Microsoft SSP), but there are others out there in the market that don't break customer environments.

  195. Don't bother with "the desktop" by bandmassa · · Score: 1

    Provide the software as a web service, subsidise it with adsense and have a subscriber model. It works for Google, people can't pirate Google, can they? ;)

    --
    "I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
  196. Code escrow by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    Standard agreement with us for high-value software from a vendor is that they place source code, manuals, etc into legal escrow. We have an agreement that if they go bust then we get the code - then we at least have a fighting chance of either fixing it ourselves or paying an external specialist to support it from that point onwards. This is really common...