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Whose Laws Apply On the ISS?
Hugh Pickens writes "Whose laws apply if astronauts from different countries get into a fight, make a patentable discovery, or damage equipment belonging to another country while on the International Space Station? According to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, ratified by 98 nations, states have legal jurisdiction within spacecraft registered to them. When the space station was assembled from modules supplied by the United States, Russia, Japan and the European Space Agency (ESA), partners rejected an initial proposal that US law should prevail throughout the space station. "It was agreed that each state registers its own separate elements, which means that you now have a piece of the US annexed to a piece of Europe annexed to a piece of Japan in outer space, legally speaking," said Dr Frans von der Dunk of the International Institute of Air and Space Law at the University of Leiden. So what happens if a crime is committed in space? "If somebody performs an activity which may be considered criminal, it is in the first instance his own country which is able to exercise jurisdiction," Dr. von der Dunk added."
Didn't he invent the "Coffee and Donut" combination?
a Federation.
..the winner makes the law. Duh.
I think some one has way to much time on their hands.
Insert funny smart-ass comment here.
I had hoped that astronauts would be above this, but, nobody seems to be above anything nowadays.
If a crime is committed in space, we need to execute a nice antique trial-by-fire... if they survive decompression, they must be innocent. If not, they're guilty. It's foolproof!
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
What do you mean I can't have more air?
Let Sealand claim it :)
Bark less. Wag more.
Wait till the first child gets born. They might be the first people able to claim multinationality, or perhaps to be able to drop the concept of nationality altogether.
Ok, unlikely, but would it not rock?
Do not murder
Do not lie
Do not steal
Treat others how you want to be treated
etc.
So when are the Dutch sending up the hydroponics section again?
Still think be more amusing to have it be whoever you're currently flying over. "3-2-1-Not Legal!"
Originally had thought it really didn't matter, seeing as they 'rigorously screen astronauts'...but after the Diaper Psycho incident, this might come to be of importance soon enough. Bugger of a wait for trial if something happens on a Mars mission though.
The vast majority of the cost that goes into the space station is American. Launching the large components, doing the risky spacewalks, delivering personnel. Other countries build some of the components (science labs), and Russia provides supplies the station as well as delivers personnel. The risk and investment in the station though has primarily fallen to the American's. American law should be defacto onboard the station. However, with patentable materials, the organizations responsible for the research of the patent maintain patent rights, so this could include multiple governments. The American government fronts somewhere along the lines of 2/3 to 3/4 the cost of the station, so I think it makes sense that American law should be the precedent to go by.
Urgent! Do NOT GO into the module made by the United States.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Seriously though, if Earth's orbit gets any more populated, this is going to be an issue. If orbiting settlements ever get going, they might wish to break away and become self-governing.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Build another module and have it served as jail-only-functional-module. and punish one according to UN laws(if there is one)
Astronauts don't break the law....
Oh wait...
Keyser Söze is going to have a field day with this.
What happens if you have a joint in the Dutch module and some jolly fellow pushes you over in the Singapore module? Do you get spaced?
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
I foresee the international trial of the century wherein American astronauts are accused of stealing pencils from the Russians after their own space aged pens die.
Maybe this is where some sort of general treaty needs to be defined for situations where sovereignty is ambiguous. The way I would see it:
- any discovery performed in a situation in ambiguous territory should be defined as an international discovery
- if a situation occurs that is considered beyond petty, then diplomatic channels should be used
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Allowing the US to write law for the ISS is a bad idea, especially when the idea of patentable research comes up. That would be far to open to manipulation by less than honest politicians in Washington. The law should be written on a multinational basis through collaboration. If the project is collaborative, then the rules should be too.
Brannigans Law
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
I would think that the rule of law on the space station would be the same as the rule of law on a ship in the middle of the ocean. It's kind of like saying, if a bunch of sailors of different nationalities are out in the middle of the ocean on a UN ship, whose law applies? I don't know the answer, but I'm sure that there are policies in place. Just because the people are in space instead of in the ocean doesn't really change things that much in my mind.
the law of common decency?
We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
So if an astronaut brings his dope from one module to another would that be considered smuggling?
I thought this was already covered. I once wondered about this, if a Canadian took his American friend out on a boat trip into the pacific, inter-national waters, and then killed him and dumped his body over board but got caught later where is jurisdiction? I was told, that the Canadian would be charged in his home country, whereas if the American was famous or such his country may ask for extradition.
Usual IANAL disclaimer.
There are documented cases of people born on airplanes who were able to claim citizenship in four countries at once - their home country, the country where the plane took off from, the country where the plane landed, and the country whose airspace the person was in when they were born.
Whose Laws Apply On the ISS?
You could say, whichever nation the ISS was above when the alleged crime was committed.
In reality though, it will probably come down to the astro/cosmo/whatevernaut that smuggled aboard the biggest gun.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
You have heard of ambulance chasing? Now we are spacecraft chasing. The scarey part is that they lawyers may be able to do what politicians could not; take apart NASA.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Law? As in rules of civil society? How bout acknowledging the fact that there is no society on a space station and not giving in to lawyers who are trying to con people into thinking that their contribution is necessary in a situation where "law" is, in fact, the least efficient way to solve problems?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
there are at most a dozen people up there at one time.
one dozen people in a floating school bus don't need laws about drivers licenses, aircraft operation, housing codes, or logging regulations (maybe one day we'll have Treeees Innnnn Spaaace, but not today)
it's not as if anyone can anonymously commit crimes up there, and if anyone gets really rowdy they can have a nice, cold, explosive time "out".
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Why wouldn't they just follow protocols used by ships in international waters?
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
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In Space, no one can hear you scream Habeus Corpus. :)
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
We used to joke that, technically, cosmonauts who launched from Baikonur and landed at Canaveral were exactly that.
- Putting on diapers and driving nonstop across the country to kill your romantic rival with a hammer will get you arrested pretty much anywhere.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
You will often see it called 'The NASA Space Station Project' in a great many news sources and thats how NASA refer to it...
So I guess U.S. laws would apply since its obviously a NASA project...
Oh wait, that would be in U.S. news sources... and in press releases from a U.S. space agency...
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
1.) Provide each astronaut a handgun of personal choice
2.) Place astronauts back-to-back in the center of the longest capsule on board
3.) If velcro boots are provided, order each astronaut to take ten steps toward the edge of the capsule. If not, approximate 10 seconds of floating in opposite directions before turning and firing.
4.) In the event the space station is still intact and both parties are still alive, review tape footage and declare the astronaut with the most matrix-like moves the winner.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
In Soviet Russian module, the Party determines the laws.
Have gnu, will travel.
Well, it's going to be really difficult to get away unnoticed after the crime...
So far its only tenent is that "No one can hear you scream," but they're working on it.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
I can hear it now. Better yet, what if I stand in my module, throw a missile through a second module, and hit you in a third module? Then what?
It would be cooler if your domain was registered in Belgium, or if your domain was Calcium, instead.
:)
Then it would either be beryllium.be or calcium.ca
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
wel put the lawyer in the toilet compartment the one who owns that owns the station in the end :)
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
I think it should apply to whomever can cut off the other persons head and gain the quickening. :P
-Reed
The ISS has an illegal modded "region-free" DVD player, purchased by NASA and shipped up in 2001.
Properly, the ISS should have a Region 8 player. Those are for aircraft, cruise ships, and "international venues". Airlines have to buy Region 8 players and discs for in-flight entertainment. Why isn't the MPAA pursuing this? It sets a bad example.
We bought this defribulator in Cuba so, as a US citizen, it is illegal for you to use it.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The applicable law is the law of the country whose module generates the oxygen.
Evil is the money of root.
When the first rape happens in space, they should just make sure they do it in the Japanese compartment. Then the crime wont be reported and they'll likely blame the victim anyway.
Chuck Norris is the law. Everywhere.
I can see a problem where something is done that's legal in one country (and that country's module) but not legal in another country. That would be a nightmare for the diplomats & lawmakers.
Whoever has the biggest vacuum tube on their ray gun.
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
As if Europe even was a single country with a common law. (Err, a law in common, that is.)
Things seem to be going that way, unfortunately (EU, get out of Sweden now, please!), but we're not there yet.
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
Flag the Ship is sailing under.
Country of Departure.
Country of Location if they were born in the territorial waters of a country.
Parents Country of Origin/Birth depending on how that country treats citzens dependant children.
I think Aunty Entity's "Two men enter, one man leaves" is sufficient...
He's done it before you know.
"That machine has got to be destroyed...."
Don't worry the Aussies are working on a thunderdome module to go up in a few years.
Show them the airlock!
In Space, no one can hear you scream Habeus Corpus. :)
At least not in the US where I believe Habeus Corpus has been suspended in a few instances, or am I wrong? Its difficult to keep abreast of the US's slow descent into a police state...
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
"In space no one can eat ice cream" from KKFOS
or the more critically acclaimed
"In space no one can hear you scream" from Alien
ZERO ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ONE! Just brushing up for my next big invention: Ethernet over Voice (EoV)
You will find that I am not knocking NASA. I am saying a bunch of lawyers will kill it by trying to play with issues that are not an issue at this time.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Astronauts tend to be military officers of their respective country. This makes things slightly more complicated to analyse (but possibly easier to resolve) because the ISS countries almost certainly have Status of Forces Agreements with each other.
These agreementds basically say that military personel of the Sending country who commit crimes within the Host country will be held subject to the Sender's military law. So if a US austronaut screws up in a Russian module, he will be Court Martialed under US Military Law and not subject to Russian Law.
IANAL (IAALS), this is not legal advise, if you go to jail because of it, it's not my fault.
but there's no way in Hell we're using your laws. I don't wanna see what happens when a bunch of astronauts get way fucked up off a zero-g bong rip and munch out on food in tubes and freeze-dried ice cream. *shudders*
What I wonder is if you commit a crime in a part of the space station where they have the death pelanty, will you get thrown out of an airlock?
Privacy is terrorism.
faith in God and sexual releases. Yes, I said them on the same sentence. Clearly, it is time to provide restraints to vulgar and animal impulses, and what better way to do it than by an internal, self policing belief instead of books upon books of laws. We see from history that the most efficient way of succeding is to not only bring faith, but a way to curb the #1 need from Men, female sexual partners, either in the form of wives, girlfriends or shared sexual female partner. As dumb and as simple as it looks, it is needed because humans are controlling the space shuttles. Now, if you still want to send your stereotypical single MIT/Harvard/WestPoint geek to control your $$$ equipment without sending any kind of restraints, we should not be surprised of the success of our space colonization and research. Just like we had to pass an art class in order to get an engineering degree, we need more than engineering and science know how to sucess from this point forward, and the lessons learned from theology and physiology should come handy here.
Well, son, the good news is you're not bound by traditional nationalities. The bad news is that it doesn't matter, because having been born and raises in space, your bone structure can't handle Earth's gravity and you can never go down and enjoy life like everyone else. Well, me and your mother are off to see the oceans and forests and breath the fresh air and feel the warm sunlight and cool breezes of Earth for the next 18 months! Have fun in your pod, there's plenty of dehydrated ice cream for you to eat, stay away from that one astronaut. Yeah, guy who's been offering you candy.
Such individuals should go on trial in every country in alphabetical order. If they die before completion then all remaining countries should leave the case open in the event the defendants are ressurected by futuristic technology or divine beings.
So if I'm in, say... the American module and I shoot someone in, oh... let's say the Japan module, where did the crime occur? In America where I pulled the trigger or in Japan where someone was shot?
Bonus: Would this be considered an act of war?
A bunch of diaper-wearers in a cramped space, all with diplomatic immunity...
-
sig sig sputnik
The same must be considered on the Internet...
Space and Internet has this point in common, has different rules from their original dimension
Maybe astronauts must decide on space travels rules, and Internauts must decide Internet fate..
Many behaviours are not equal so many rules must not be equal...
Or can you kill someone inside a chat?
So.. Vote for Kurt for Internet President must be a valid motion... Countries rules aren't needed...
Are the fights that serious on the ISS?
With the possible exception of the temporary visitors, all the crews onboard the ISS, the Shuttles and Soyuz ships that service the ISS are all extremely disciplined professionals and have to behave as such at all times, especially since they are kept busy so much of the time, and their safety depends on their professionalism. These folks have been trained their whole careers to exercise great patience that it is second nature to them. I seriously doubt there are any "fights" more involved that something along the lines of "Awright, which one of you knuckleheads ate my last package of butterscotch pudding" or something like that. There have been some rather heated exchanges between the ISS crews and their mission control counterparts on the ground, and those are well documented, but so far there's been no widely publicized arguments between the ISS individual crew members themselves.
Why don't they simply carry their passports around, making sure that they get a stamp everytime they enter or leave a compartment? They should also set up extradition treaties in case the American murderer of the Russian cosmonaut hides in the Japanese compartment. Of course, if he manages to reach the American compartment, where he can't be extradited, the Russians may decide to decompress the station, which would force the murderer into the Russian escape pod. Sounds like a space soap opera, and more beneficial to humankind than all this research jabberjibber that noone understands.
For example, should stem cell research (legal in some countries, illegal in others) be permitted. Could it be done in, say, a european module, but not an american one. How about growing GM crops
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
So which countries allow file sharing again?
Right. Okay, Bob, take that server and my laptop over to Module G.
You got a problem in the ISS, you come to me. I'll straighten it out.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What would *that* be then? These are things we need to know for scientific progress!
This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
Since primates were in space before humans, space is obviously under Ape Law.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
So if each module belongs to it's respective country, is a passport needed to go between rooms? What if someone can't go to Japan for what ever reason. Are they banned from entering a room owned by Japan?
Because!
with a military to protect them. the funny thing is is how ridiculous it sounds. but then there are thoughs that would create some bad guys and then tell you that they will protect you from them, thats why you need them. Gee? why wouldn't the world just let the US have jurisdiction over it?
Literally. Right over.
Infuriate left and right
Archangel's Rules to live by ....
#538) Always sail the seas under the flag of a pirate, especially if you're pregnant.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Whoosh. Right over. By several hundred miles.
Infuriate left and right
I propose building a wall around our ISS modules. I am tired of illegal space men crossing our borders to steal our resources. Although on the upside at least we do not give them drivers licenses.
$diff terrorists hippies
$
$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapp_Brannigan#Brannigan.27s_Law
Whoever has the most money and political influence is "right".
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
What happened in the ISS stays in the ISS...
If Alice kills Bob at sea (in international waters), her home country's law would apply.
Since the nappy wearing stalkernaut incident, I've not been so sure.
I think, if they ever really do have such a fight on the ISS, they should be made to take it outside.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
If humanity will have trouble reconciling disputes in outer space, interplanetary colonization looks pretty bleak.
Then again with humans on the path to rendering an entire planet uninhabitable, a space capsule wouldn't stand a chance.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
There's no such thing as "European law", as such, in this context.
Which specific country is it that has a little piece floating in space?
My guess is France, because the French are pushy about issues of nationality and sovereignty, and the rockets will have been launched from their bases.
We need law in space that's a great first step.
How about we cross that bridge when we get to it. Could you imagine how many frivolous lawsuits there will be once something like this is decided.
"The coffee on the ISS was too hot, that's a good 60 million"
"The toilet sucked my pee-pee too hard and left me with welts, should be 100 million"
"Ouch I stubbed my toe on the Iss, 20 million"
Fuck that shit.
Does each nation have embassies in the other nations' parts of the station?
So if you run around the station yelling "uh huh huh his name is Vader Dunk" do the Germans get to shoot you?
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
easy one to answer, the decider decides
"It was agreed that each state registers its own separate elements, which means that you now have a piece of the US annexed to a piece of Europe annexed to a piece of Japan in outer space, legally speaking".
Ok, anybody besides me that see an obvious question regarding this: which European states law apply in ESA's sections? There is no "Europe" when it comes to laws - each country have their own.
So which is it? English? French? German? Dutch? Italian? Spanish? Or another European law?
...or has the professionalism of astronauts diminished from what it was years ago?
Oh wait..... Woman astronaut stalks.... http://sfbayguardian.com/entry.php?catid=77&entry_id=2903
Yeah I guess it has...
On another front, if you are born in space in teh space of combined space station parts from numerious countries, which country do you have citizenship in?
Which country owns the airlock to the shuttle? Let's say it is the U.S. You can't enter or exit except through there. So, they have control. Otherwise, I commit murder in the Russian section and flee to the U.S. section. There's no court up there that exercises jurisdiction, so no extradition... The perfect crime. Oh, wait. Taxation is the perfect crime.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
It's even worse than that. The ESA sections really muddy up the waters. The ESA and the EU have no legal personality in international law. Which member nation of the ESA would have legal responsibility? All, or none? Who the hell knows.
they would be Moonies.
Tech Support: "No, sir...clicking on 'Remember Password' will NOT help you remember your password."
I seem to remember somewhere that the laws of a boat in international waters depend on the flag being raised, the flag it's sailing under. Now, tell if I'm wrong, but I would bet this holds something in space... So whose flag "flies" (or is painted) on the ISS? A lot of flags, to my knowledge. Well, this comment went no one. Let's put it this way: Bad things are bad.
Only laws common among all countries should apply. This should rule out murder, adultery, theft, and all the other moral-based laws. If problems arise then they can add to or change them as needed and they will apply in space only.
OR...
they could also use the 10 commandments. Although I doubt everyone will be able to agree on that, it would be a good starting point.
There would be much bigger issues to worry about than nationality!
http://lis.arc.nasa.gov/lis/Experiment_App/C1514_3.html
http://research.hq.nasa.gov/Spaceline_WEB/SpaceLine/nasa/pdf/Space_Flight_Studies_Explor.pdf
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
There are no laws in outer space, or on the Moon and Mars for that matter. The X country can declare that there own space ship has there laws and rules. Then it is fine for them. But if I did go to the Moon and did declare this piece of moon land my own country nobody would be able to stop it, so to speak (other nation can always invade). However there is a U.N treaty that declares that no nation can declare that they own part of the Moon or something along those lines.
But I don't know how it goes if where dealing with space that is x,y,z big or some other planet that my not fall under the U.N treaty, like a asteroid.
but i believe only the guilty survive
In the end space travel was killed by the many laws human lawyers drafted to make themselves look important. Thus leaving the earth vulnerable to extermination by the Shiny Red Robots of Vortis.
While other species across the universe were able to protect themselves from the Shiny Red Robots of Vortis by having space colonies to re-populate their homeworlds in case the Robots decided to pay them a visit, the Humans had none so they died off quite easily.
The ironic part is that the Shiny Red Robots of Vortis had no qualms about wiping the life off homeworlds because they knew they would be re-populated from space colonies and in a couple thousand years they would provide them with a fresh batch of brains to suck out of intelligent beings living there.
The Shiny Red Robots of Vortis were sad when they visited earth a thousand years later to find no intelligent life, maybe, they thought, there had never been any.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
What? I have 5 billion dollars and I can't do whatever I want on my satellite hotel?
Nobody's!!! Har te har har har!
This means that the Italian-built module Harmony will be ruled by Italian justice, which is reputed to be extremely inefficient in bringing criminals to jail.
If you want to commit space crimes, that's the place to be!
A good start.
Since the artificial borders between countries are starting to fade, we need an international law which covers all these problems.
It's no coincidence that sci-fi presents the future Earth as one big country. Our differences are petit and artificial, and the sooner we realize that, the better.
...which actually takes precedence over member states' national law in cases of conflict. It also makes up over 50% of codified law in most, possibly all member states. Whether you like it or not is another matter; that is the way it is.
Nuff said.
Guns are for wimps... Use a crossbow.. this way you can pin them to their chair when you go postal.
I think it's important to note that Haliburton has already negotiated the rights to the duty-free concession on the ISS.