How Best Buy Tried To Whip The Geek Squad Into Shape

The Consumerist site is featuring a follow-up to their Geek Squad porn collectors story, a feature we discussed back in July. According to Consumerist, Best Buy set up their own rigorous internal investigation to catch the culprits soon after these revelations became public. At that point, of course, employee morale went out the window. Draconian interrogation methods were apparently used, and innocent employees lost their jobs. "There were three Geek Squad members fired from my store including myself. The first two were fired for burning a non-copyrighted CD for another employee on a non company issued blank CD-R. I admitted in my interrogation that I was aware of this, and that I stopped these events after that occurrence. I was fired for being aware of this non copyrighted CD being copied. To quote, I did not provide the proper example of leadership. Keep in my mind I removed over 100 illegal tools and pirated discs upon my arrival as supervisor, as well as some remnants of an internal porn scandal."

Comments

Best Buy needs wasps.

[mcmonkey]

You want techs that can look at the data to trouble shoot and remove viruses, etc. but at the same time won't look at the data that may be of a personal nature. The answer is obviously zombies.

Heck, I'll make my own Geek Squad. With hookers, and blackjack...

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[kalpol]

Forget the Geek Squad. And the blackjack.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[SatanicPuppy]

Meh. It's all about their crappy hiring practices. If you're going to have employees dealing with sensitive information, you're going to have to do more than promote morons off the sales floor, and you're going to have to pay a decent wage, and get managers who have clue, and run audits and all the crap professional shops do.

Are they going to do that? Goes without saying, the answer is no. Running a group of techies, especially bench techs, is like herding teenagers. They're all going to think they're smarter than you, they're all going to know the "right way" to do everything, and they're not going to listen to some low tech Bob whose community college associates degree entitles him to a big sexy manager job at best buy.

Just another example of a big corporation trying to expand into a field it doesn't know a damn thing about.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[moderatorrater]

People who need techs from a professional shop should get techs from a professional shop. Otherwise, they should know what kind of tech they're hiring and adjust their expectations accordingly.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, mom and dad are being tricked to think that Best Buy "IS" a professional shop.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[nurb432]

No, it really can be done. You just have to train yourself.

Once you can sit at a desk with a CEO and help him format his confidential IPO document but don't read one word in the process, you have succeeded.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about their crappy hiring practices. If you're going to have employees dealing with sensitive information, you're going to have to do more than promote morons off the sales floor..

I know what they need: background checks!

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[pla]

Once you can sit at a desk with a CEO and help him format his confidential IPO document but don't read one word in the process, you have succeeded. [bolding mine]

...Because you only need to read one number to make sure you buy in (or sell out) at the right time. ;-)

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Penguinisto]

Dunno... most local PC repair shops (from my admittedly limited experience with 'em) seem pretty much the same way - they hire kids who happen to be taking classes/courses in CS/CIS/IS, and throw 'em at it. Not like Best Buy does much different IMHO.

Then again, I build/maintain my own stuff - the local shops are great for the occasional used part, some have some excellent geek types in them, but otherwise I wouldn't trust most local PC shops with repairing a games console, let alone machinery that I actually give a damn about.

/P

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[ZWithaPGGB]

The problem goes beyond Best Buy, and to the tech industry in general. The buyers, be they consumers or the corporate CFOs, really have no idea what they are buying, so they can only distinguish based on price. The result has been a race to the bottom.
Honestly, I blame the consumers, they get what they deserve. Mechanics and Plumbers get paid more than computer techs, yet the computer field is more complex and changes faster. Why does anyone expect anything other than ignorant juvenile behavior for less than a living wage (which is at least $35/hr in CA)?

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Dragon of the Pants]

Ah, screw the whole thing.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[dippitydoo]

I worked at a "big Box" store. The techs used to backup the pr0n, and run cd-key stealers to capture all the awesome programs/games/etc serials. You can download just about any game online. But a valid cdkey? Hard to find... Unless you work in a techshop.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[chromelyke]

I used to work for best buy when they first rolled out the Geek Squad service. I was one of the original techs in my store, alone with a few others who had been there before me. Every one of us were real techs, not the promoted sales bs that was soon to follow. Funny how the higher paid real techs become "poor performers" when corporate realizes it can pay less for sales people to install norton antivirus and do system restores. The idea of actually fixing a problem is gone at best buy. Let the finger pointing begin. 2C

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[insertwackynamehere]

I volunteered the summer between 11th and 12th grade at a computer donation place where we refurbish computers and repair computers that we have sold in our thrift store. There were some kids my age and a lot of people who all were adults learning about technology and knew enough to be pretty damn smart about PC repair, a lot of them were going back to college or needed jobs or were veterans. They were some of the most fun people to work with and they did a good job too. I was humbled by them many times and I considered myself to be pretty good with computers, inside and out (which is why I volunteered there in the first place). The place was community driven and non-profit. My boss and one of the other head guys were from back in the day talking about old computers in the 70s and 80s, showing us old equipment, and setting up Linux (the second guy was trying to start up Linux classes and other open source promotional stuff, although the systems we did has 2000 on them). The point is, it isn't so bad to hire kids or other people from the community as opposed to someone who's gone through 3 different schools to be certified in IT.

Also, I once was doing some sort of virus check or disk check (I forget now) and some middle aged woman had brought this computer in that her son used that they had bought at our store. The file names start flying by and there is tons and tons of porn (I can tell because they are all porn actress names or "boobs" in the filename with video and image file extensions) and it was extremely awkward because the woman was sitting right there.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[billcopc]

But I am smarter than Low Tech Bob!

Seriously though, Geek Squad attracts the low-end techies... guys who would be advertising $20/hr onsite in the classifieds otherwise. You pay a low-end techie, you get low-end work.

I can clean spyware too, but I charge a lot more than the $59.99 you'll pay for the Geek Squad because I don't like doing that crap. I can install a hard drive or video card too, but my minimum charge is $60 because I'll take the time to route the cables out of sight to ensure proper airflow. I even charge $150 for an OS install, but you do end up with a fully tweaked and customized version of Windows with its own recovery partition, so you don't have to pay for it again the next time your teenager fries your system with spyware.

You can't really compare my attentive service to the 13$/hr guys, and many people don't care for the luxury service. Joe Blow won't benefit from my expertise, and I'm fine with that. A lot of people drink cheap beer and I'm fine with that too, but I drink the good stuff because that's what I prefer. Some folks prefer quality, and they're happy to pay for it.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[billcopc]

Having done all sorts of web work for years, I think I've succeeded. This cracks people up (or pisses them off), but I can spend a week putting a site together, and still not have a clue what the damned thing is about. "You know that page about shipping info?" No, I don't. What's the file name ?

Of course, I'm also the kind of guy who can work on pr0n without getting aroused at all (nor disgusted, for that matter). Money is money.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[CastrTroy]

Probably because you can replace the entire computer for $500 (or less). If your car breaks down, and the options are, spend $1000 on repairs, or buy a new car for $15,000, then the choice is pretty simple. However, when you go into a computer shop, your computer is 2 years old, and they tell you it will cost $100 to fix it, the many people will just choose to buy a new one. If computer techs cost $80 an hour like mechanics, nobody would ever get a computer repaired.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[einhverfr]

I know people modded you insightful, but I would have modded it funny.

They key is not what you say. I.e. you *will* be exposed to confidential data. It is just that there need to be 3 basic rules in this area:
1) Don't go looking for data you don't need.
2) Don't copy or otherwise remove data from the customer's location without appropriate permission.
3) Don't go blabbing secrets of one customer to others.

Really, it isn't rocket science.

BTW, I do have medical industry customers (HIPAA, etc) and our privacy policy has to meet the regulations. Basically we say we will not retain customer data unless asked to do so, that we will keep customer data in confidence, and that in medical environments we will train employees to respond to exposure to sensitive data appropriately.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

sure, but what if you want the data? that's usually worth more than the hardware.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[barocco]

or irenicus' golems

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The techs used to backup the pr0n, and run cd-key stealers"

That's a silly thing to do. If two customers exchange data about their problems with stolen keys after repairing their machines, the cops will pay a visit sooner than later. Same thing when a clueless deadbeat perpetrates card fraud with cards he collects at work.
Cheers

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[mcmonkey]

I just wanted to add...my first first post.

Hookers and blackjack for everyone!

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[macdaddy357]

Computers are so mysterious to most people that they might as well be from Mars. They have no way of knowing whether or not the kid down the street who says he knows computers is pro quality or not. All they know is that he knows more than they do.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Z00L00K]

It looks too me like they can sire the whole Geek Squad and start over with a collection of persons with no ability to have any kind of emotions at all.

Employment requirements: Higly analytic skills, no emotions, very logical - Oh what was your name again? Spock?

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[ZWithaPGGB]

Within a matter of weeks, if not days, what you have on your computer is worth more than the machine, and is much harder to recreate than the machine is to fix or replace. Even just getting things set up the way you want them is worth more, in time value of money, to many people than the machine itself. You will notice that all these scandals have been about either misappropriation of personal data, or destruction of it.

How much do you think it's worth to people to not have their nude photos of their wife out on usenet?
How about all that quicken data you need for your taxes?

I'll give you one thing, you have illustrated the problem clearly: people don't value computer tech services, therefore they get services that have little or no value.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you can sit at a desk with a CEO and help him format his confidential IPO document but don't read one word in the process, you have succeeded.

Most CEO's can't type their own letters. Or perhaps type the annual financial statements cover letter for them. Maybe put some calls or puts in on the side.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[nurb432]

Considering i don't ever read content, i couldn't tell you if it was his original work or not.

But it has happened on more then one occasion where the CEO/president/etc has asked for direct document help and i really don't see the words. its all just letters and fonts to me.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[couchslug]

"If computer techs cost $80 an hour like mechanics, nobody would ever get a computer repaired."

Most machines aren't worth repairing at commercial rates. That's one reason those of us who dumpsterfish have free computers aplenty every Christmas. :)

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[DurendalMac]

Since when is $35/hr living wage anywhere? Full time with that kind of pay, you'd be making around 70k a year. You could live in a decent apartment in Manhattan for less than that, much less LA, Sanfrancisco,, or a more rural area of California, where it would be much cheaper. I guess living wage means enough to get by plus money to buy lots of other crap.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[ZWithaPGGB]

Try raising a family on less in CA, especially the Bay Area.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[aliensporebomb]

Here's a clue: Low Tech Bob is often the manager because they would be toast
if they tried to work a tech job. The whole Harvard MBA/Bastard school of
upper management leads directly to the "Middle Manager Ennui robot puppet"
school of employees below the higher-ups and it seems to work fine for
those in charge.

But yet, there are people willing to pay for quality. Personally, it seems
that many of the problems experienced by end users are their own damn fault:
running an unpatched IE browser, visiting "adult content sites" (the big two:
porn, gambling) that seem to be the biggest purveyors of malware, kid sites
that cater to gamers (but push malware when you're not looking) or running
Kazaa or Limewire over a long weekend with the firewall down and no one
watching the machine (again, malware of various kinds). Or simply running a
very old commercial antivirus application that hasn't had a definitions
update since sometime in 2001.

It's sad, but it's true. Very few have any idea of the consequences of their
behavior. When they are a customer you can't exactly call them on the carpet
for this because they are entrusting you to fix their problem, and paying you
for that. So everything is couched in a soft pedaled delivery "you should
avoid that or this site".

However, the social engineering aspects of "getting something for nothing"
are heavily at play. And no matter how much they should know better people
really want to believe it. It is this attitude that often leads to machines
getting infected to the point where a reimage is necessary.

An end user at my company brought a machine in (their own that was authorized
to be on the network, hence they had admin rights) to be looked at due to what
appeared to be a big virus outbreak: her 12 year old daughter had installed
Limewire (without her mothers' knowledge or consent) on the machine.

The daughter found what she believed was a module for her favorite game which
she then downloaded and decompressed which promptly owned the machine since it
wasn't what it said it was. She then did nothing about it for a week or so
while the machine slowed down and acted erratically.

Since it was the parents machine and not a corporate asset, it was the
mothers responsibility to get it cleared (we make "best effort" but just
don't have resources and hours to spend on this kind of thing, it's not
really what I'm there for). That meant spending $ to rectify a daughters
mistake.

The parent was upset and asked how this could have happened despite having
a commercial corporate antivirus solution: facts are facts, decompressing a
trojan and willfully installing it nuked the antivirus install and then
started inviting its malware friends in which invited more in and thus the
machine would have taken hours of dejunking in safe mode to undo the damage.

I personally feel our company has picked a mediocre corporate antivirus
solution but I am not in a position to change things.

The daughter promptly blamed the Limewire install on a neighbor girl and I
could feel the girls' curdling "MUTH-ERRR, you can't call her mother, I'll
just die.." when the parent was going to contact the parent of the neighbor
girl.

The mother was irate since people who nuke their machines in this manner are
their responsibility to have it corrected meaning paying someone to do it.

Anyway, the situation with Best Buy is no different than what I see sometimes
at work - there are people who use corporate assets to surf unsafe sites - when
they are at home on their own high speed network connections they can pull up
anything they want. We have privacy restrictions so we can't examine what it
is they have surfed, but the malware scanners are pretty good about pinpointing
the nature of the site surfed or malware on the machine from a given source.

There have been a few times, however, when customer machines explode in a plethora
of self-launching porn pop-ups. All you can do is laugh, shut the thing down and
reimage it and hope they learned their lesson.

Re:Best Buy needs wasps.

[NateTech]

Same thing with the guy at the local car repair shop.

Smart people find good mechanics through referrals. Idiots get ripped off at Midas.

Nothing new there.

Doing all the right things

[Spinlock_1977]

Sounds like you did all the right things - I'd hire you in a snap. Don't let the micro-managers of the world get you down - their heads will be rolling down the same street soon.

Re:Doing all the right things

[megaditto]

Sounds like the poster has put the wrong spin on things. What he probably said:

I was aware of this, and that I stopped these events after that occurrence What he should have said is:

I was aware of this, and that I stopped these events after that occurrence He also probably went on about how the CD wasn't copyrighted thinking it vindicated him, but honestly they probably don't give a fuck since the keyword here is copying. The takehome lesson here is to know what the PHBs are looking for, and deliver it to them.

Re:Doing all the right things

[Anonymous Coward]

They were mad that they used company property for non-company work, not that copyright law was violated.

Re:Doing all the right things

[Fulcrum of Evil]

who cares if you copy a CD that you're allowed to copy?

Re:Doing all the right things

[kryten250]

Note that he did not mention what was being copied, he just assumed we would think music so he added non copyright. It could have been porn, I'm sure if it were porn he would have been fired but saying it the way he did makes it 'organic'.

Re:Doing all the right things

[davetd02]

who cares if you copy a CD that you're allowed to copy?

Because the whole problem that BestBuy had was techs copying material from customer computers. It sounds like the rule was "no copying of CDs, period" because that's a clear bright-line rule that is easy to enforce. If a CD is being copied then there's a problem. The alternative rule ("no copying unless you can prove it's yours") introduces a nightmare of proof and its own maze of privacy violations: if a supervisor suspects that a CD of personal data is being copied then he'd have to look through the files on it, which could be the employee's personal files or the customer's personal files. Inevitably there would be disputes as to whether the files could be copied or not ("I swear I was just copying software, not documents, from the customer's computers" or "this is my friend Billy's computer and he said it'd be OK") and the problem wouldn't get solved.

In large organizations with a bunch of employees, bright-line rules are fair for everyone as long as they're well-publicized. Employees know exactly what behavior is and is not allowed, and the company can protect the privacy of its customers.

Look for a new job, kid. It sucks that you lost this one, but there are a lot of better jobs out there.

Re:Doing all the right things

[harrkev]

who cares if you copy a CD that you're allowed to copy?

Do you not really know? People who either:
1) do not know better (too many of those)
or
2) people who do not care and are just looking for a scapegoat.

In this case, it could be either 1 or 2.

Re:Doing all the right things

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he should have done 3 things:
1) Realized a corporate witch hunt (happen more than you think)
2) Denied everything, while talking about all the progress made
3) Started looking for a new job while he takes short-term medical leave, then quit.

I'm all for ethics, but if a company is out to screw me, It's important to survive until you got a new job.

Re:Doing all the right things

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem with this rule is, of course, that (at least the way we operate at the shop i work for) copying user data is the only way to stop it from being erased when doing a full restore, etc,etc

we even offer a backup service, direct to cd, or more commonly DVD, a blanket ban on teccies cpying data would render that useless.

Re:Doing all the right things

[einhverfr]

I would second this. Please send me your resume. (Preferably PDF format)

Whips and geeks, oh my

[Anonymous Coward]

rarrrrrr, I'd love for the Geek Squad to whip my naughty ass and punish me anyway they see fit for my transgressions and pirating.

Warmest regards,

CmdrTaco

Re:Whips and geeks, oh my

[mrslacker]

Dammit. My last two mod points expired just about 5 mins ago.

moving to greener pasteurs

[pak9rabid]

I bet those $35k/year managers felt good after getting a chance to swing their dicks around. On a more positive note, I'm sure these guys will end up with better jobs now that there's motivation to look for one. That usually tends to be the case with talented people stuck in shit hole jobs.

Re:moving to greener pasteurs

[strcpy(NULL,...]

dictionary.com is your friend.

Re:moving to greener pasteurs

[CRCulver]

I think you'll find that a great many people would prefer crap jobs with limited responsibility to a job that pays more and yet drains one's youth and energy.

Re:moving to greener pasteurs

[pak9rabid]

It's very possible to find a job that pays well and doesn't drain you. The key is working for a small company, not corporate America. I learned that lesson at a young age.

Re:moving to greener pasteurs

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they won't. Their skills are trivial, they are nothing special. Anyone can now be trained, easily, to do that kind of stuff.

Their future is in floor sweeping, forever.

Wrongful Dismissal?

[Cassini2]

In Canada, you might have a case for wrongful dismissal. You stopped the activity from occurring after it occurred. Your not supposed to fire employees after every small infraction occurs. You need to try remedial action first. If you fired everyone that made a small mistake, you would run out of employees pretty quickly.

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[ackthpt]

In Canada, you might have a case for wrongful dismissal. You stopped the activity from occurring after it occurred. Your not supposed to fire employees after every small infraction occurs. You need to try remedial action first. If you fired everyone that made a small mistake, you would run out of employees pretty quickly.

Sure, but if you're above the people you are sacking, you look like you took corrective action to your own supervisor. The Best Buy around me, whenever I go in there, looks like it is run by kids. I figure those who are on some sort of track stick around for a year to give their resume an entry and move outward and upward.

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[merreborn]

In Canada, you might have a case for wrongful dismissal.

IANAL, but my understanding is: in the US, if you don't have a contract (and it's a pretty safe bet that Best Buy employees don't), then you're employed "At Will", and may be terminated for (almost) any reason at any time -- although it varies by a small. It's very, very hard to successfully sue for wrongful termination of at-will employment, short of cases of gross discrimination -- blatant, documented racism, sexism, or something along those lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[whmac33]

This is an issue of state law in the US and not federal law. Different states will be more or less favorable to the employee/employer. Often it can be about justifying unemployement benefits for the terminated employee rather than direct compensation from the employer or getting the job back. /IANAL

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[Anonymous Coward]

if you fired everyone that made a small mistake, you would run out of employees pretty quickly.

not really. The World is vastly overpopulated, and unless you have a really rare skill that almost no one else can do, then there are 100 people waiting for your job, and that's why they fire you so quickly. In the case of hiring, they want everyone that applies for the job to have the morals of the Pope, the brains of Einstein, and work at a relatively simple job, surrounded by other employees that you wonder how they got the job. All for low pay, all because of the vast over-supply of potential "employees".
You can be fully willing and able to do an honest days work, but due to the large number of people who don't really want to work hard for their pay, then everyone gets treated like they are going to be slackers, thieves and bums.

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[mabhatter654]

In the US you would qualify for unemployment if they just fired you "at will" though. The company has to prove they had a "cause" to fire you or it's considered a layoff and you still qualify for unemployment. Something capricious as firing for 1 or 2 CDs copied under a week-old rule would not qualify as cause. Of course, if you're part time you still won't get anything, but in this case it's a "manager".

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[canuck57]

In Canada, you might have a case for wrongful dismissal. ...

Doubtful. Why is simple. Even in Canada if you do a crime against law you can be fired with cause. In fact, the company may increase their liability if they do not fire you. As by not firing they accept the liabilities for damages done.

Re:Wrongful Dismissal?

[Anonymous Coward]

All employment is under contract. At-will employment isn't exclusive from contractual employment; "at will" is just a contract term, and it's by far the most common type of employment in the United States. (IAALStudent.)

Suggested google search

[SuperBanana]

Suggestion: wrongful termination

Or try "employment lawyer." Beware: the US is largely employment-at-will. So, unless you're a minority, pregnant/a woman, handicapped, over 50, or in the military...you're pretty much screwed.

Shame, as it wasn't always that way, and the US is one of the few places where at-will employment is the norm.

Re:Suggested google search

[Archangel Michael]

"So, unless you're a minority, pregnant/a woman, handicapped, over 50, or in the military...you're pretty much screwed."

You know, there's an easier way to say this .... Young White Males.

Re:Suggested google search

[tooslickvan]

You can choose to sue but you have to figure out first if it's worth it. The time and energy may be better spent looking for a better job. For you career, jobs are better than lawsuits.

Re:Suggested google search

[darkmeridian]

Cute. But if you're a young, GAY, white male then discriminating against you is illegal under New York State law (not federal law). The PC police have everyone under protection.

Re:Suggested google search

[jdray]

"At will" employment is the norm in America because litigation is also. As a small business owner, when I fire someone, I don't give a reason. With the exception of one case, where the person in question was completely oblivious to what was wrong with what she did to get fired, people know by the time I fire them why they're being fired. By not giving a reason for the firing, I protect myself from wrongful termination suits.

The Best Buy situation described here is far different than that of a small cafe owner like myself, and the situation at hand was much more complicated than those that I deal with. For instance, in the case of the oblivious employee I mentioned, I caught her sitting in the sun with her boyfriend when she was supposed to be out on a delivery. It wouldn't have been so bad, except that the other four people back at the cafe were up to their eyebrows in deliveries backing up because she hadn't returned, and we had a line of customers at the counter. This was after several instances of stern discussions with said employee about her insubordinate attitude, being late all the time, and lack of focus. When I fired her, I explained simply that, "it isn't working out," and that was the end.

I, for one, am glad for the at-will employment laws. But, as with anything, they can be abused.

Re:Suggested google search

[rhombic]

The PC police have everyone under protection.

As a straight white male less than 40 years old who is neither disabled nor in the military, I can assure you that the PC police don't quite have everyone under their protection. Some of us have to play the Evil from which the Others must be Protected.

Re:Suggested google search

[Bartab]

Since GAY isn't a claim that can be proven, anybody can claim it. So literally, everybody is protected.

Re:Suggested google search

[KiahZero]

It doesn't work that way. Everyone's protected against discrimination on the basis of race, sex (including pregnancy status), national origin, religion. Disability, age, and I believe military status are non-reciprocal.

If you're fired because you're white, you have a claim, just as you would if you were fired because you're black. If you're fired because you're a man, you have a claim, just as you would if you were fired because you're a woman. If you're fired because you're not pregnant (that'd be an interesting situation), you have a claim, just as you would if you were fired because you were pregnant. If you're fired because you're Christian, you have a claim, just as you would if you were fired because you're Discordian.

On the other hand, discrimination on the basis of age is only actionable for any age over 50 (so if you were fired because the company preferred to have 60 year olds instead, you'd have a claim, but not if you were fired because of your youth below the age of 50). The ADA only covers the disabled, so there's no recourse there if you're fired because you're not disabled, and while I haven't dealt with military discrimination in the past, I believe the law is structured in a similar manner (it would depend on whether it was written as barring "discrimination on the basis of military status" or something similar, or if it was written as barring discrimination against people because of their current status in the armed forces).

More on-topic, at-will employment does indeed suck.

Re:Suggested google search

[ScrewMaster]

Depends. If the attorney thinks he has a good case, he may handle the proceedings at no charge to you, and take his cut when he wins. Either way, you're out nothing, and even though the attorney's fee will be a substantial percentage of any award you still get something for your pain and suffering. That's a lot better than squat.

Re:Suggested google search

[Loki_1929]

"If you're fired because you're white, you have a claim"
"If you're fired because you're a man, you have a claim"
"If you're fired because you're Christian, you have a claim"

And if your wife hits you, you have a claim against her for domestic violence, right?

You're not really that naive, are you?

In the real world, if the guy doing the hiring/firing doesn't like white people, you can be out of a job for any other reason in the world.
In the real world, if the woman doing the hiring/firing thinks all men are rapists-waiting-to-happen, you can be out of a job for any other reason in the world.
In the real world, if the Muslim doing the hiring/firing isn't fond of infidels, you most certainly will be out of a job.

In a world where you can be fired because it's sunny outside, you can be passed up for hiring or fired for being white... because it's sunny outside. It absolutely can and does happen, because the overall mindset in this country is that racism doesn't happen to whites, sexism doesn't happen to men, and domestic violence doesn't happen to husbands. Every bit of it is just as disgusting and wrong as the preceeding opposite (with the exception of domestic violence, which has -always- been that way).

Re:Suggested google search

[Blakey Rat]

At-will employment goes both ways. Sure, the employer can fire you without warning or reason, but at the same time you can quit your job without warning or reason as well. If a fast-moving industry like technology, I see that as a good thing.

Also, if you don't like that, just have your employer write up a contract. If you're employed on a contract, you're not at-will.

Re:Suggested google search

[Arcaeris]

"Since GAY isn't a claim that can be proven, anybody can claim it. So literally, everybody is protected."

Discrimination due to sexual orientation or gender identity or whatever related to it is not protected everywhere. In fact, it's not protected in many states.

http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/gayri.htm/

Re:Suggested google search

[be-fan]

Oh boo hoo, the young white male has such a hard life!

Try being a young asian/indian/arab male. You get most of the disadvantages of being a minority, along with most of the disadvantages of being a high-income demographic. Basically, you're too white enough to count towards "diversity" quotas, but not white enough to blend in at the airport.

But you know what? I don't complain about it. Because in all honestly I could've been born black, and then I'd have to deal with the statistical likelihood that I'd be making only half as much money as I do now. And that would suck more than being stared at when I'm in the airport security line!

Re:Suggested google search

[Rakishi]

Also your employer can fire any of your idiotic coworkers once they show themselves to be idiots not a year later once their clusterfucks have pilled up high enough to block lawsuits.

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

"I, for one, am glad for the at-will employment laws. But, as with anything, they can be abused."

As an employee I'd be glad for them as well, but they are not practiced in Canada.

I find in Canada they don't want to take a chance in hiring people since they are harder to get rid of in comparison to America. (In France, it's almost impossible to fire someone and thus employees are extremely hesitant to hire). This promotes only friends and relatives being hired, etc.

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, a person's sexual orientation can be determined on the Kinsey scale or the Klein grid.

Re:Suggested google search

[Eevee1]

Exactly. I, for example, am a lesbian trapped inside a man's body.

Re:Suggested google search

[Tweekster]

I will take at will over the situation they have in france anyday.
at will basically means you will have a job as long as you do your job

Re:Suggested google search

[agrippa_cash]

To the extent this is true, doesn't the business deprive itself of the majority of the most educated workers? So the extent you (and I) are less protected, aren't we are also less vulnerable? This is small comfort to the people who get screwed, but in broad terms the balance of bullshit still favors white males.

Re:Suggested google search

[Achromatic1978]

at will basically means you will have a job as long as you do your job

Hahahahaha! Ha! Oh, wait, you were serious? Really?

Wow, to be as optimistic/naive/all of the above as you...

Re:Suggested google search

[KiahZero]

Funny you say that, since many of the advances in employment discrimination law have come from whites or men suing. Additionally, courts can and frequently do find women guilty of domestic violence.

At-will employment is problematic for employment discrimination cases, to be sure, but it's just as problematic for the white Christian male as it is for the black Islamic female.

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

Sexual orientation isn't a protected class for federal anti-discrimination law. (Don't ask, don't tell.) (Start by looking at the 14th Amendment, then take a look at the Civil Rights Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, etc.)

Some states have decided to provide more rights by making sexual orientation a protected class in their anti-discrimination laws.

So, sorry to nitpick, but: Whether it is illegal to fire someone for their sexual orientation will depend on which state you are in.

Re:Suggested google search

[Torvaun]

At will means you will have a job as long as you don't piss off anyone who has the authority to fire you. Most people don't get fired because they're bad at their jobs, they get fired because they're bad at dealing with their coworkers/bosses.

Re:Suggested google search

[Fulcrum of Evil]

you're overlooking something: had you been born black, your father would be stuck wondering why his son was black and going over a list of the black people he knew.

Re:Suggested google search

[mabhatter654]

actually, you are doing the right thing, but not documenting it... that's VERY bad for you. That's why big companies are all about "write ups" so that they have a paper trial so when they fire you, you are really gone, and they have documentation to show a judge. They also have documentation for OTHER employees that proves the rules are the same for everyone, again VERY important. In your case you are following the steps, but not putting them in writing or getting witnesses at the end, so if this chick was to sue you for trying to sex her up, you'd have no history to defend yourself with.

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, we live in a society that is much more sympathetic to minorities than otherwise. A white male trying to prove a violation is going to have a much harder time than a minority.

Right before the last time our company did a lay off, the VP of HR accidentally sent the whole company a list of employees, their salaries, their ethnicities, and had a special spreadsheet listing all the minorities they felt would be legally problematic to lay off.

It is definitely not an equal playing field.

Re:Suggested google search

[hung_himself]

If the employee can sue you for wrongful termination then not giving him a reason doesn't mean that he can't still sue you though it's much harder than if you had given him a *bad* reason. In some cases, not giving a reason could actually make it easier. For example, he could claim that you fired him because of his race when you really fired him because he was lazy. When you later raise your defense that you fired him because he was lazy, it is a lot weaker since you initially gave him no reason. He could also use your history of firing people who happen to be of like race for no reason to support his case. So whether you give a reason or not, it is best to document the real (presumably valid) reasons somewhere and this is where your real protection lies.

IANAL, but am right now in the midst of a discrimination case where the employer documented their bad behavior in writing and has very little written documentation to support their defense and will likely lose (knock on wood...)

Re:Suggested google search

[rworne]

Suggestion: wrongful termination

Or try "employment lawyer." Beware: the US is largely employment-at-will. So, unless you're a minority, pregnant/a woman, handicapped, over 50, or in the military...you're pretty much screwed.

Shame, as it wasn't always that way, and the US is one of the few places where at-will employment is the norm.

Believe me, being in the military doesn't mean squat. I was given the boot from my employer shortly after returning from Desert Storm and the JAG told me they were not doing anything about it. I was stunned.

Re:Suggested google search

[Renraku]

And most of the time they are abused. 90% of jobs involving unskilled labor that isn't exceedingly gross or rural will be far more difficult and lower paying because there are 5 people lined up for your position, and the companies know that this is about enough to keep most people in line and quiet. If we ever go back to a more protected employment status, I predict riots. A lot of government jobs are like this, thus, you almost can't be fired from them.

Re:Suggested google search

[$pace6host]

Does that cost you in payments to your state's unemployment insurance program? I am not a business owner myself, and I haven't yet had the need of the UI system, but I've heard from others that you are eligible for UI only if you were terminated without cause, and that employers end up paying more into the system if their former workers file for unemployment benefits -- so the employers often claim cause to avoid it. Of course, since these stories were coming from terminated employees, they all claimed they were great employees being screwed out of their benefits (I imagine their wrongful termination suits were a bit weaker in actuality), but the part about employers paying more into the system sounded true. The law in my state (PA) proved a little more complicated than I was willing to navigate, but I did find this language in it:

"if the department finds that such individual was separated from his most recent work for such employer due to being discharged for willful misconduct connected with such work, or due to his leaving such work without good cause attributable to his employment, or due to his being separated from such work under conditions which would result in disqualification for benefits under the provisions of section 3 or section 402(e.1), thereafter no compensation paid to such individual with respect to any week of unemployment occurring subsequent to such separation, which is based upon wages paid by such employer with respect to employment prior to such separation, shall be charged to such employer's account under the provisions of this subsection"

(It's here if someone with actual business law chops wants to dig.) Or, is it just that UI only covers people who have actually been employed for longer than a probationary period, and you're able to separate the wheat from the chaff quicker than that? Or are the increased payments just worth it to get rid of idiots without potential legal hassles?

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

For more information on what an employment system that is not at-will would look like, see France.

Re:Suggested google search

[Tweekster]

Its worked quite well for me for 12 years now.
The people that bitch about at will are usually the bad employees (or the ones that suck at dealing with people)

Re:Suggested google search

[jdray]

I haven't investigated the situation to the fullest extent I could, but here in Oregon the UI rates are based on some sort of point system. If you fire someone, you're charged a certain number of points to your balance. It may be that the number of points in the hit you take are based on the conditions of the firing. Anyhow, once you reach a certain threshold, your rates go up. But really, the difference in rates aren't such that they justify worrying about it and keeping around bad employees to avoid higher rates. People have suggested tactics to me, such as cutting people's scheduled hours to two per week or somesuch to induce them to quit. That happened to me once years ago, and it sucked. I won't do it to my employees, no matter how much they annoy me. I'd rather be above board and just fire them. The risk of keeping a bad or disgruntled employee around, particularly in a retail business where access to cash is so easy, is a much higher cost factor than the increased payments. If some employee came in to work their two hour shift for the week and cleaned out the till, it would be much worse for me than paying an extra $25 a month or whatever it is in UI rates.

Re:Suggested google search

[Anonymous Coward]

Curiously, sexual orientation does not legally protect you from being descriminiated against. Thus claiming in a lawsuit that you were fired because you were gay won't carry the lawsuit very far.

Re:Suggested google search

[oliderid]

"At will" employment is the norm in America because litigation is also. As a small business owner, when I fire someone, I don't give a reason.

Being a small European business owner...I envy you :-).
Anyway if it wouldn't be mandatory, I think morally you must give a reason. I agree that it is quite hard to explain it without hurting anybody sometimes.

Re:Suggested google search

[darkmeridian]

That's why it isn't protected under federal law, but it is protected under New York State law. Make all the jokes you want aboout NYC.

Holding off on the hate, some thoughts.

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds as though they re-interviewed everyone in an attempt to see who was violating company policy.

I don't know how big Geek Squad is but I've cleaned up several of their messes. The reality is they are attached to a LARGE company and have loads of assets and liability.

My guess is they dismantled by ax and not with a razor.

No, my precious little snow flake, the world isn't fair. And please wipe your feet before you park my car.

Re:Holding off on the hate, some thoughts.

[timmarhy]

that would mean you'd have to leave mom's basement, and your not fooling anyone on that count.

Uncopyrighted?

[Champ]

I'm having a hard time thinking of uncopyrighted things that can be put onto a CD that might be troublesome . . . hmmm . . . confidential business records, perhaps?

Nah, I give up.

Re:Uncopyrighted?

[fizzywhistle]

In two seconds i came up with games saves, custom maps for a game, game mods etc. Some jerk in a tie sees that and assumes employees are playing games constantly. It could even be vacation pictures, the point was that is wasn't work related and wasn't copyright infringement. You're assuming theres a legit reason for canning them. After seeing this type of stuff for 10 years its obvious someone just needed an excuse to look like they were in control and doing something about the problem. Upper management see 4 people got canned and they think somethings been done. Its doubtful that anyone was actually interested in cleaning up the operation, just looking like they were. CYA

Re:Uncopyrighted?

[Anonymous Coward]

All your examples are of copyrighted data. You're thinking of data which the guy was allowed to copy. Not the same thing.

Re:Uncopyrighted?

[Zonk (troll)]

I'm having a hard time thinking of uncopyrighted things that can be put onto a CD that might be troublesome . . . hmmm . . . confidential business records, perhaps?

Nah, I give up. (IANAL) Everything that's created is covered by copyright by default. To not have a copyright the author is required to explicitly release it as public domain (see SQLite for an example).

I think this guy is confused and means freeware, FOSS, etc. It's not surprising with the RIAA, MPAA, and BSA abusing copyright and distorting it's meaning all the time. I hear comments like that fairly regularly it pisses me off. Hell, my former webhost had this message (probably still does) when logging in via ssh:

Welcome to ...

Use of any of the following can result in your Account being disabled
with or without notice:

- IRC/Chat Server or Client Software
- Scripts used for mass mailing
- Programs that could be used to compromise the security of any system
- Scripts that use excessive amounts of System Resources
- Storage or execution of programs that are copyrighted

If you have any questions, please feel free to visit our comprehensive
list of frequently asked questions (FAQ) at http://.../faq.htm

Thank you for choosing ... So, that means no Perl, PHP, MySQL, ssh, rsync, csh, etc? Using any available gpl/lgpl/bsd scripts/libraries? Am I violating that by using their copyrighted BSD-licensed server with a copyrighted BSD-licensed shell (csh)? By using copyrighted BSD-licensed utilities (ls, mkdir, rm, etc)?

Re:Uncopyrighted?

[John Hasler]

> I think this guy is confused and means freeware, FOSS, etc.

He may be even more confused and mean anything not from a commercial publisher, like your former webhoster.

Re:Uncopyrighted?

[CajunArson]

(IANAL) Everything that's created is covered by copyright by default.

The IANAL bit is correct at least. Factual information is NOT copyrightable. There are plenty of things that Best Buy would not want employees copying (customer records, receipt info, etc. etc.) that would not fall under copyright. Copyright covers "creative works", and while the definition of a "creative work" is pretty broad, it doesn't cover everything (good example is the phone directory).

I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case (in fact I doubt it), but there is plenty of non-copyright material out there that a business does not want copied willy-nilly.

Being replaced by...

[Anonymous Coward]

They are all being replaced by... the "Nerd Herd". Same folks, different shirts.

special cases

[farble1670]

when you're dealing with an organization the size of Best Buy, you aren't going to have people taking the time to see if Geek Squad employee intentions were in the right place. To make it simple, they probably just said any employee that knew of wrong doings and didn't report them or fire the responsible party (or whatever) had to be let go ... no exceptions, because that opens the door for every employee to plead their special case.

Re:special cases

[Dan667]

I have worked for a big corp and I bet it went more like this. Big wig, marching orders - minions, thoughtless execution. There is no incentive for most middle managers to be good at their job aside from making their boss happy so you get dumb decisions like these. Best Buy should be doing a better job of collecting feedback for performance reviews, but that takes a lot of effort so you get these kind of results.

I really feel for the author, he is clearly in the right and I hope he gets snapped up by a competent company (they are out there) ...

Re:special cases

[networkBoy]

Yes, but is copying a "non-copyrighted cd" wrong??
I would think not in all honesty. They even did not use BB media.
-nB

Non-copyrighted?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see that in the comments some people have complained about the "non-copyrighted" CD. Was it public domain material, or a CD of stuff that didn't infringe upon copyright? They're not the same thing, but I don't think it's worth nearly as much fuss as some of the commentators in TFA made of it.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[computerchimp]

All this talk about Best Buy rules. Is it being assumed that there was a rule against copying CDs?

Anyone have this Best Buy rulebook for posting?

It sounds like a made up rule to me, as someone wrote earlier, just an excuse a jackass manager (and bad person) used to fire someone. If thats true shame on them (like their conscious void soul cares).

CC

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[timmarhy]

Use your brain. He means they burnt software that didn't have a copyright on them restricting it's copying. freeware,shareware,OSS... there is a huge list.

And i'm sure they could bust everyone using their stupid rule book as well, in a smiilar fashion to we are all criminals who are breaking the law since almost everyone is guilty of some minor infaction during the course of a normal day, J walking being a prime example. Do you also demand every J walker be thrown in jail?

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Ragzouken]

Copyright doesn't last forever.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Use your brain. He means they burnt software that didn't have a copyright on them restricting it's copying. freeware,shareware,OSS

My brain says there's a lot to this story that isn't being told. If it was free to copy why didn't he just say that. As far as jail or crimes, WTF? Are we even reading the same article?

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Blkdeath]

I see that in the comments some people have complained about the "non-copyrighted" CD. Was it public domain material, or a CD of stuff that didn't infringe upon copyright? They're not the same thing, but I don't think it's worth nearly as much fuss as some of the commentators in TFA made of it.

I've seen a lot of head scratching over the "non-copyrighted" comment as well. A CD is a storage medium. Anything can be on it from FOSS software / source code, pictures, public domain music, pictures, documents, spreadsheets, logfiles, videos and on and on and on.

Just because he said "CD" doesn't mean it's a commercial, shrink-wrapped disc. It could be literally anything and hypothesizing about it seems to me to be a glorious waste of time and comment space.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[RickRussellTX]

Honestly, that seems like a rather silly legal distinction. There's a clear difference between "copyright enforced and copying not allowed" versus "copyright not enforced and/or copying allowed". I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that the copying involved material that they were allowed to copy. Doing that on company time may still be against the rules, sure, but it's not the same class as software piracy or duping movie DVDs.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[ZiZ]

Obviously it was a CD full of copies of DJB's software, including qmail.

(Yeah, probably 'non-infringing material' is what was meant.)

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Aladrin]

Use your brain. Those are all still copyrighted. Just because permission is given to copy does not mean it is 'non-copyrighted'.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[timmarhy]

That's not the point, the point is did he actually do anything wrong, and if the copyright on the material allows him to copy it, the answer is no and he should not have been fired. or that logic too much for you?

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[masterzora]

Public domain. A copy of The Divine Comedy, for example is definitely not copyrighted.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Detritus]

Works created by an employee of the federal government in the performance of his duties are not copyrighted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[John Hasler]

The copyright on such works cannot be enforced under US copyright law. A subtle but important distinction.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[kasek]

It's been two years since I worked there, so I dont have the employee handbook available, but if you are burning something on a non-company issued CD-R, that would mean its a personal CD-R. Meaning you are using their machines / time for personal use, which is a no-no.

Re:Non-copyrighted?

[Aladrin]

I make the distinction not from a legal standpoint, but from a 'follow the company policy' standpoint. Multiple violations of company policy will get you fired anywhere. It doesn't even really matter what part of the policy you violate if there are multiple violations.

If he -had- been 'pirating' or helping something to 'pirate' software or DVDs, it would have only needed 1 offense. Breaking the law is almost always instant-fire.

This is not about moral or immoral, ethical or unethical... It's about company policy.

Just so I'm clear on this: I have never worked for BestBuy, though I did apply a few years back. I took their personality test and they never called me... I suspect I was too honest and caring. I didn't care for them before I applied, I definitely didn't like them after, and after they threatened to throw me out of the store for taking a picture of a product I wanted to remember... Well, I certainly didn't like them after that.

But company policy is company policy... You violate it at your own peril.

Ha!

[jskline]

I wouldn't sent my worst enemy to a geek! My standard line to anyone who asks is; "Do go down to Worst-Buy and look over the merchandise and the particular model your looking for. If the price is right, buy it. Whatever you do, don't take any extended warranties, service programs or allow any geek install. And for Gods' sake; don't talk to a geek!" :-)

Re:Ha!

[moderatorrater]

...go down to Worst-Buy... Has anyone ever laughed at that joke? ;)

But seriously, how come people don't realize that Best Buy is the very bottom wrung on the tech store ladder? They're even worse than CompUSA!

Re:Ha!

[ericlj]

I would. I hate my enemies.

Re:Ha!

[Jarjarthejedi]

There's a tech store ladder now? Last time I checked they were all atrocious enough to lump in the same category of 'never listen to these people, they just want your money and have no clue what they're talking about'.

The day I ask a Best Buy, or CompUSA person to try and fix something for me, or even to point me to a computer related item I'm looking for, is the day I know I'll be paying 2x what I need to pay and now having the problem solved.

Re:Ha!

[moderatorrater]

Fry's is, as I understand it, better than those two, and then you get places like Newegg and EBCComputers (a shop in Utah) where things get better. But out of the big store, there are no good choices.

Re:Ha!

[bball99]

newegg's getting suspect IMHO... i was a enthusiastic newegg buyer years ago, but the last few purchases from them seemed suspect (i.e., 'repacks' of returned items)...

but yes, i agree w/you and parent posters that i'd *never* use the services of any *box-Mart electronics store, and especially Best Buy (which has lost my business forever through its refusal to honor newspaper ad pricing in local stores - f*** Best Buy!)

Re:Ha!

[CRCulver]

Probably the same folks who think "Micro$oft" is an ideal spelling.

Re:Ha!

[gEvil (beta)]

They're even worse than CompUSA!

Get it right. It's CrapUSA. Sheesh...

Re:Ha!

[gEvil (beta)]

Fry's is, as I understand it, better than those two...

Hehehehe. You've clearly never shopped at Fry's. The advantages there are that they have inventory and good specials. Otherwise the salespeople are the same caliber as what you find at BB/CC/CompUSA, but they think that they're better than their counterparts. This always leads to moments where you cringe when you hear one of them giving tech advice to other customers. But if you have a question for them, just expect the same blank stares you get at the other places.

Re:Ha!

[Technician]

"Do go down to Worst-Buy and look over the merchandise and the particular model your looking for. If the price is right, buy it. Whatever you do, don't take any extended warranties, service programs or allow any geek install. And for Gods' sake; don't talk to a geek!" :-)

What is funny is while I was shopping for a laptop a while ago, I picked out a model I liked an told them I would like it but I would like extra memory. I asked if it had an empty memory slot, or would the memory need exchanged out for a larger size. They sent me to the Geek Squad to get the answer to the memory question. They tried to bundle the extras and I said no thanks to all of it. Then they informed me they were sold out. Somehow the timing of their discovery that the item was sold out deeply cut their credibility. If it was truly sold out, they should have figured that out before sending me to check into a memory upgrade. I'm wondering if they were sold out simply because I didn't buy any of the bundled stuff.

Re:Ha!

[C0rinthian]

I once asked a Best Buy rep what the difference was between the ATI Radeon 9800 and the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro. (Besides $100) Unfortunately for him, the specs posted on the boxes are identical between the two cards. I think the poor guys head exploded. (The only difference was clock speed, btw)

Re:Ha!

[morethanapapercert]

Actually, I have had reasonable experiences with Tigerdirect.ca. Setting aside the whole Mail In Rebate nonsense, my experiences with them have always exceeded my expectations. My experiences with cartridgestore.ca on the phone have been stellar. I'm not fond of their website, but the people you get on the phone actually work in the store and really know printers and printer supplies.

Oblig. disclaimer: Aside from having purchased products from each of these, I have no connection, business or otherwise with either firm. This is exactly what it appears to be, an unsolicited testimonial from a satisfied customer. IYMMV

Re:Ha!

[brendank310]

I really doubt this is the case. I worked for BestBuy for two years, and despite all the pressure from managers, most floor salesmen that I knew, myself included, weren't out to screw the customer. We get no incentives to sell you more, except we don't have to hear our managers bitch at us (as much.) In the two years that I was there, there was one contest for selling, and the prize was a $20 flash drive. So in your case, I don't think they were withholding stock from you. None of us kept track of stock in our heads, and the inventory system at bestbuy isn't very accurate, nor is it quick.

Re:Ha!

[Stradivarius]

Several months ago I needed to get a laptop on very short notice (i.e. no waiting for a custom-built one). I went to the local Circuit City to see what they had, and while browsing, I eavesdropped on the sales guy helping other customers looking for laptops. Surprisingly, the guy really knew his stuff, and did a good job of explaining things accurately to his clearly non-technical customers. Turns out the guy was the manager of the computer section, but the store did have one competent guy at least. Far better than I've come to expect from the other big-box stores.

Re:Ha!

[pwizard2]

Otherwise the salespeople are the same caliber as what you find at BB/CC/CompUSA, but they think that they're better than their counterparts.

And that's only if you get a good one. When I was younger and more naive, one of their sales reps outright lied to me about a laptop warranty, and I ended up paying $200 (pure profit for them) for what basically amounted to nothing. He said that the extended warranty covered physical damage, (complete with a loaner PC) but it turned out that it only covered software damage (i.e. windows reinstall, which I had been doing myself for years) The sales guy said anything he had to to get the sale, and now he's in the wind, never to be seen again.

The markup on their stuff is pretty bad, and while I've never been burned on their rebates in the past, I know people who have been.

I hope Frys enjoyed that $200, it's the last they will ever get from me. Eternity will come and go before I ever step into a Fry's again.

Re:Ha!

[palantir0]

I bought a laptop from them and an extended warranty and love it. The warranty pays for itself in free battery packs along with fixing problems that occur. Normally I would say extended warranties suck but there are cases where it works. Laptops break depending on how careful you are. Of course, if I had to send the laptop in I would either wipe the data or replace the hard drive.

Cheers

Re:Ha!

[JohnBailey]

There's a tech store ladder now? Last time I checked they were all atrocious enough to lump in the same category of 'never listen to these people, they just want your money and have no clue what they're talking about'. Nobody said that the ladder was all that vertical..

Re:Ha!

[canuck57]

...And for Gods' sake; don't talk to a geek!" :-)

Real geeks and geek squad are two different things.

A real geek can go into the local parts store, order mobo and all the parts. Put one together, load the OS and then program the thing. Setup their own firewall and probably run Linux, BSD or other non-Windows OS. They get into wireless, networking, sniffing and software to depths geek squad could never go.

Geek squad on the other hand is really a salesperson in disguise. The idea is to bilk you for services you do not need.

CBC Marketplace video explains. These are not geeks or nurds, they are modern day snake oil salesmen.

Don't insult real geeks. Real geeks would have all these problems fixed properly in less than 10 minutes or recommend that the system is so old it is cheaper to buy a new one. But real geeks don't drive stupid vehicles and they sure don't work for $30/hr or less.

Re:Ha!

[argmanah]

CBC Marketplace video explains. These are not geeks or nurds, they are modern day snake oil salesmen.

I saw that video when it was posted to /. a while back. There are a number of things in that video that bother me about the reporter. For example, even the companies that diagnosed and repaired his problem correct, the reporter bitches about how the stores charge him $50 for a part he could get for $30 online. Well, no shit. You're going to pay more for someone who has the part on hand and is offering instant delivery than you will from an internet discounter. While I agree that the reporter pointed out some very shady individuals, bitching about the rest of them for their parts pricing only took away from his credibility.

Re:Ha!

[Technician]

None of us kept track of stock in our heads, and the inventory system at bestbuy isn't very accurate, nor is it quick.

It's bad form to have a customer jump through hoops and pick out a configuration, and then tell them, "oh, We are out of stock"

It just looks suspicious. The sale was just fine until I declined the extras. Think how that looks from the consumer side. It leaves them wondering "Are they really out of stock or are they saving it to sell with the profitable bundle?".

With their current reputations, anything going wrong in a sale is looked at with distrust. It's a fact of customer relations. When the reputation is down, everything going on in the store needs to show no signs of possible manipulation.

Re:Ha!

[jskline]

You missed the context somehow. The thing is referring to being INSIDE a Worst Buy store where you don't want to talk to a geek. And when I am talking to people, most of these "people" are lay people who would be more than likely to talk to one of these so-called "geeks" and take their word as gospel.

I do know the difference as I am one of those that went quite a ways past what we all know to be "geek".

"Non-copyrighted"?

[John Hasler]

> "The first two were fired for burning a non-copyrighted CD..."

What do you mean by "non-copyrighted"?

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably was a CD of Mozart's own performances (the porn actor, not the musician.)

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to know that too.

There's "open source" (and other licenses that permit copying), "fair use", "copied by copyright owner" that would all be legal, and very occasionally "public domain".

But the copyright always belongs to someone, even if they have licensed that right widely.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably some random pictures of some guy's wife.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright and Public Domain are opposing concepts. IANAL.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[uniquename72]

Lists of customers' credit card numbers are non-copyrightable. Maybe that's what it was.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

My assumption that it was non-attributed pornography, or perhaps pornography or some personal information stolen from a customer. Since there was no attribution, we assume that it was not copyrighted. If it was just some code or something like that, I think the poster would have fought the firing.

In any case, a firm has the right to control over the purposes for which their machines are used. If a firm does not wish the machine to be sued to copy personal CDS, then that is the way it is. Even if it enforced preferentially, there is little that can be done. It is my stuff, and I control what it is used for.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[masterzora]

Public domain very clearly means that there is no copyright as the work belongs to the people.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[vimh42]

Well, it was going to be out of copyright in a few years anyway...

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[isellmacs]

What do you mean by "non-copyrighted"?

I think what he means was that it was a non-commerical CD, such as a Data CD.

It's a common practice among techs that i've met, as well as myself, to burn compliation CD's of drivers, tools and other useful stuff. CAB files for every major OS, even the old ones, can get you far in some situations.

When one of us had compiled a disk that was pretty useful, the others would inevitably want a copy. We didn't head on home to burn the CD, but instead, burned the CD there at the store. It may have shorted the store a few cents, but any real productivity tool like that is worth the cost of a blank CD.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[BrandonBlizard]

I'm sure he is referring to the content on the cd. Differentiating between someone burning their pictures on a cd, and someone duping pirates of the Caribbean disks.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[John Hasler]

> I think what he means was that it was a non-commerical CD, such as a Data CD.

"Non-commercial" does not mean "not protected by copyright".

> It's a common practice among techs that i've met, as well as myself, to burn compliation
> CD's of drivers, tools and other useful stuff. CAB files for every major OS, even the old
> ones, can get you far in some situations.

All protected by copyright unless works of the US government or explicitly placed in the public domain by the copyright owner.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[John Hasler]

> I'm sure he is referring to the content on the cd.

You think? Gee, and here I thought he was referring to the piece of plastic.

> Differentiating between someone burning their pictures on a cd, and someone duping
> pirates of the Caribbean disks.

Your pictures of your kid, no matter how amateurish, are protected by the same copyright law as the equally uninteresting product of some Hollywood producer.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[John Hasler]

> Public domain...

He said "non-copyrighted", not public domain. The only works that so qualify are works of the US government, works explicitly placed in the public domain, and works on which the copyright has expired. I doubt that he was talking about anything in any of those classes.

> ...very clearly means that there is no copyright as the work belongs to the people.

No it doesn't. Works in the public domain "belong" to no one.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[masterzora]

He said "non-copyrighted", not public domain.

In today's America, the two are one and the same (excluding, of course, things that have never been expressed). Even outside of today's America, public domain is a subset of non-copyrighted.

The only works that so qualify are works of the US government, works explicitly placed in the public domain, and works on which the copyright has expired. I doubt that he was talking about anything in any of those classes.

I've had fairly sizable collections of public domain works of various sorts (old texts, public domain images, etc), so it's not unheard of. More importantly, I was responding to the questioning of what was on the CD, but to the statement that everything is copyrighted, which is clearly false.

No it doesn't. Works in the public domain "belong" to no one.

Public domain works are part of cultural heritage and thus belong to the people, even though nobody has a legal claim of ownership.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[masterzora]

Oops, I forgot the important class of "non-copyrightable works" that still qualifies (things like lists of numbers and whatnot). But the post still stands.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, not if the author placed it into the "Public Domain". Lots of stuff done by the US Federal Government is Public Domain, you know...

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Public domain" is the state of NOT having a copyright. A CD full of books from Gutenberg, for example, would NOT be copyrighted.

What the author more likely means is Freeware, Open Source, or Freely redistributable software, but it is possible for a work to NOT have a copyright.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[smellsofbikes]

So who owns the copyright to Hamlet? or Alice In Wonderland? or a book full of trigonometry tables?

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[zakezuke]

But the copyright always belongs to someone, even if they have licensed that right widely. AFAIK you can release a work and wave all copyrights. IMNAL however I learned much from the the Creation Science Evangelism attempt to assert DMCA rights on material Kent Hovind (Dr. Dino) waved copyrights to. It would seem in the US you reassert your rights but AFAIK you can release a work directly into the pubic domain.

But this would not apply to most open source software.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Alice in Wonderland si probably still owned, at least in UK.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the contents on the CD is in the public domain, then no, the copyright does not belong to anyone anymore. In all other cases, it does, though, so "CD full of public domain material" is both a valid and the only interpretation of "non-copyrighted CD".

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[meringuoid]

Alice in Wonderland si probably still owned, at least in UK.

It was published in 1865 and entered the public domain in 1905. In the early twentieth century copyright terms were rather more reasonable than they are today. This allowed the wide variety of different publications of the text you will find today, and also allowed Disney to produce their movie adaptation without having to pay anybody for the rights; this movie was released in 1951, and really ought to be in the public domain itself by now, but for some strange reason Disney films receive far greater protection than the original works they copied.

The book you may be thinking of is Peter Pan, which enjoys a one-off perpetual copyright in the UK; the rights belong to Great Ormond Street childrens' hospital for as long as that institution exists.

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[Anonymous Coward]

wave = big splashy thing that gets you wet, or the thing you do in a stadium or with your hand.
waive = the word you want

Re:"Non-copyrighted"?

[aliensporebomb]

Prediction: material the owner of the PC probably wouldn't want the GS tech to have.

Use your imagination!

Call the Whaaambulance

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy loses his job and starts whining to whomever will listen. That's not news.

Besides, how likely is it that someone who got fired is going to have an objective opinion about the circumstances of his own dismissal? I trust what this guy says is the unbiased truth just about as much as I trust anything Bestbuy says is the unbiased truth, which is to say not very damn much.

Geek Squad CIA as well

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a GS agent as well and in our precinct we went through the same sort of thing, although we didn't have any of those torture session or anything. Corporate confiscated all of our harddrives and external backup devices and said they were checking for SOP compliance. About three weeks later or so we got a message from them saying we were 100% compliant with approved tools and such so as far as corporate was concerned we were angels. Any agent that has the time to look through someone's personal files must either be bored, in need of more work, or just waiting to be fired. I honestly don't have time to look through everyone's personal image files and mp3 caches. I grab your information, associated you with a service order number, and go from there.
I think they were right in sacking the agents who weren't working while on the clock. Our budgets are pretty harsh, so we don't have the service budget to give you hours to burn porn on the clock. Being sacked for being the supervisor trying to fix things is BS though, sounds like upper management trying to disguise the fact these things had been going on under the noses.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Blkdeath]

I think they were right in sacking the agents who weren't working while on the clock. Our budgets are pretty harsh, so we don't have the service budget to give you hours to burn porn on the clock.

Pardon me? If you're representative of a typical GS member I'm glad I've never taken one of my machines to you for any work. It takes all of 2-3 minutes to locate, copy, and initiate a transfer of a media directory. It takes about the same amount of time or less to initiate a CD-R burn of said data.

You're aware that with modern operating systems users can perform multiple operations simultaneously, right? It's entirely possible to copy files to, say, a thumbdrive whilst installing iTunes and re-arranging some desktop icons. I can then burn them to a CD-R on one machine on the bench while I perform a large operation on the machine beside it. Realistically, I'll be burning my stolen porn collection while I'm performing on the clock duties so it literally won't cost the company a dime!

It is, however, morally repugnant to do so and the entire time I was a PC technician often working on as many as three or four computers at a time I would never browse a persons personal documents, images, videos or music files except as required for regular virus/trojan/malware removal.

We've had clients ask about our data integrity policy and go so far as to suggest removing their hard drive prior to or immediately at the start of our repair process. It was always made perfectly clear to them that their data was 100% secure and that there was nothing to worry about. Once our (high school) co-op student connected our bench speakers to a customer machine and began playing an MP3 they had on their hard drive and was nearly sent home for it. Data snooping was simply not tolerated under any circumstances and I wouldn't expect any less from any establishment I'd bring my computer to.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[ducomputergeek]

We trust the network administrator gave the standard lecture before giving you the password, which usually broken down is:

1: Respect other users privacy
2: Think before you type.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[gEvil (beta)]

Pardon me? If you're representative of a typical GS member I'm glad I've never taken one of my machines to you for any work. It takes all of 2-3 minutes to locate, copy, and initiate a transfer of a media directory. It takes about the same amount of time or less to initiate a CD-R burn of said data.

You assume that the computer owner stores their files in some sort of logical arrangement. More often than not, files are scattered across directories all over the system--usually whatever the save window's default was. Typically this includes the root of the C drive, My Documents, the Desktop, the specific application's application directory, and sometimes the Windows directory. If you're going to do a good job (not what I would expect from a BB/GS employee), you'll need to check each of those places and more.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Blkdeath]

You assume that the computer owner stores their files in some sort of logical arrangement. More often than not, files are scattered across directories all over the system--usually whatever the save window's default was. Typically this includes the root of the C drive, My Documents, the Desktop, the specific application's application directory, and sometimes the Windows directory. If you're going to do a good job (not what I would expect from a BB/GS employee), you'll need to check each of those places and more.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I was talking about people fixing computers and troubleshooting operating system issues having some sort of knowledge on how to use same.

Start -> Search -> For Files or Folders -> Pictures, Music or Video. Select all three types, click Search. Alt-Tab or just plain minimize the window, perform other tasks. When search is complete, Ctrl-A (select all), copy, open thumbdrive or similar, paste, minimize, perform other tasks, remove thumbdrive from computer and store your bounty in your pocket. Repeat for documents if desired.

If the client isn't using Windows XP or later with its fan-dancy search tool, you could just search for the likes of "*.jpg;*.gif;*.bmp;*.mp3;*.mov;*.mp4;*.avi" etc. and perform the same copy/paste operation.

I just ran a test. It literally took me longer to type out that explanation than it did to search my entire system - including network attached drives - for all multimedia content.

Safe to say I won't be bringing my computer to you for support my friend. :)

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[gEvil (beta)]

So you'd pull every single gif, jpg, bmp, etc that the search tool finds (including all those associated with help files, caches, etc) and then just give that all back to the client in a big lump, with their real photos and whatever else mixed in? Nice.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Blkdeath]

So you'd pull every single gif, jpg, bmp, etc that the search tool finds (including all those associated with help files, caches, etc) and then just give that all back to the client in a big lump, with their real photos and whatever else mixed in? Nice.

{SIGH!} Ok, let me spell this out for you. Read slowly;

1. The issue at hand is Geek Squad members taking files, specifically pornography, but generally including any and all media files from clients' computers.
2. Anonymous Coward indicated that it takes "hours" to burn such data, and that doing so on company time is wasteful and deserves disciplinary action.
3. I responded that any knowledgeable computer tech could locate and copy said data in mere seconds/minutes and safely burn it while performing other job-related tasks in the meantime.
4. You said that such data would be filed irregularly throughout the file system, therefore making it more difficult to locate / copy / abscond with.
5. I told you that it takes seconds, not minutes, and certainly not hours to do so and in fact guided you step-by-step through the process by which one could assimilate all (multi)media files on a clients computer for later perusal.
6. You responded with some verbal diarrhea about giving files to the client?

I'm afraid, son, that you've wildly missed the point. Try re-reading the thread from beginning to end starting here and come back when you've figured out just what it is we're talking about. Now run along.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[gEvil (beta)]

Okay, you're right. I wrongly thought we were talking about backing up a customer's data before wipe/reinstall. I should've read the post you originally responded to more thoroughly.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[UberDragon]

I'm sorry but every time I hear someone that works for geek squad call themselves an "agent" I can't help but break out in hysterical laughter. As if you work for some elite computer police force, precinct.. roflmao...

I mean it's one thing to be "Agent AC" at work.. but this is the real world.. we are called engineers, technicians, nerds, I'd settle for computer geeks! roflmao gotta luv corporate America brain washing.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Damarkus13]

I think you miss read the AC's post. He never said it would take hours to extract all the media from a client's computer. He said, "I honestly don't have time to look through everyone's personal image files and mp3 caches."

Doing a quick search for all media files on my computer returned 34K files, of which only about 3% is anything other than application resources. Assuming the files average only 100KB (because I think I might have just crashed explorer by trying to get file properties on that many files) that's still ~3.4GB, or about 30 minutes of burn time (and 5 cd swaps) with my CD burner. Not to mention the client's PC is probably already unstable, so even trying to copy that many files could be an exercise in futility. (Have you tried multitasking on a thrashed Windows installation?)

In other words, you would have to do spend some time digging or burning, to get anything useful from a client's computer.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Jahz]

I'm sorry but every time I hear someone that works for geek squad call themselves an "agent" I can't help but break out in hysterical laughter. As if you work for some elite computer police force, precinct.. roflmao... Like how I broke out in hysterical laughter when I read your comment?? The word "Agent" is used correctly. Grow up man... The word "agent" does not imply some kind of law enforcement, CIA or FBI affiliation. Do you laugh at real estate agents? How about insurance agents or sports agents?

Agent (noun): a representative who acts on behalf of other persons or organizations. In other words, almost any employee who interacts with outside customers or representatives.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[senway]

An actual apology?? But...but...this is the INTERNET! You're not allowed to resolve a disagreement on the internet....where are the retorts? The snarky comments? The improper grammar? Good god, where are the straw men? Won't someone PLEASE think of the straw men?!!

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[gEvil (beta)]

Hey, I'm one of those people who actually owns up to mistakes (I do it IRL too). Sorry if that disappoints you.

Re:Geek Squad CIA as well

[Blkdeath]

I think you miss read the AC's post. He never said it would take hours to extract all the media from a client's computer. He said, "I honestly don't have time to look through everyone's personal image files and mp3 caches."

With automated search tools you don't have to look through anything. That was kind of my point, which you've apparently missed. :)

When I run a search for media I can quickly and with a few keystrokes / mouse clicks eliminate most of the junk, clipart, etc. from the search results. Anything below 10K gets thrown away immediately, for example, which would likely eliminate the majority of hits on any system with an installed encyclopedia software, office suite or anything else that comes with "clipart".

Doing a quick search for all media files on my computer returned 34K files, of which only about 3% is anything other than application resources. Assuming the files average only 100KB (because I think I might have just crashed explorer by trying to get file properties on that many files) that's still ~3.4GB, or about 30 minutes of burn time (and 5 cd swaps) with my CD burner.

It's a few minutes and 1 DVD-R(W) disc (do modern computers even have "CD-RW" options anymore?!?), and again, it can be performed while running a genuine work-related task on a neighboring PC so again, back to the original AC's point, it's not taking "hours" of company time, it's taking a few seconds to a couple minutes worth of mouse clicks while you wait for the next "Next" prompt to appear on a clients PC.

Not to mention the client's PC is probably already unstable, so even trying to copy that many files could be an exercise in futility. (Have you tried multitasking on a thrashed Windows installation?)

I'm not sure quite how unstable the machine(s) in question would be; keeping in mind the experiment originally involved GS installing iTunes on a reasonably stable machine.

In other words, you would have to do spend some time digging or burning, to get anything useful from a client's computer.

When I was administering a high school LAN a few years ago we ran into a problem with students out stripping the storage capacity of our RAID array (long story; IBM NetFinity server, Windows NT, no quota support, no upstream support, many Tums later I'm no longer there. :) so I and my co-administrator would routinely run a search across the array for all multimedia content and sift it to find the worst offenders who'd be notified, through their homeroom teachers, of their violation of the schools AUP and the files would be backed up to CD then deleted. (Backed up just in case some were related to a project, but when you have 1700 .JPG PokeMon / Digimon files in a directory chances are that's not a school project, but hey, better safe than raked over the coals!)

"Whip The Geek Squad Into Shape"

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first read the title, I imagined some sort of mandatory exercise program.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

So at Best Buy...

[ackthpt]

So at Best Buy you show your management potential by collecting scalps. How is this different from too many other places?

Re:So at Best Buy...

[timmarhy]

To be fair not all large company's have that kind of corperate culture. When they do though, that attitude always comes from the top.

Where i work now has a really laid back attitude even though our job is actually very dangerous at times (which i think helps since stressed panicy people back bad decisions). I've never known them to fire anyone without a good reason, the number one reason being a saftey violation resulting in a near miss or incident.

I have however worked in other places which prided themselfs on being assholes to customers and staff. I did not work there long, finding another job as quickly as possible.

When considering a career change i suggest googling the general manager and the CEO of the company. Since HR departments have starting doing this to us, i think we should use the same tactic to see if we really want to be associated with them.

Re:So at Best Buy...

[king-manic]

So at Best Buy you show your management potential by collecting scalps. How is this different from too many other places? When I was a part of a big faceless corp you had to do some seriously heinous things to get fired. A firing an employee reflected badly on the manager and hurt their managers future prospects if it occurred too often. But I live in Canada so the big faceless corporate evil likely exist in another form.

One-sided guess

[secolactico]

Based on the side of the story told in the article, I would guess that they couldn't find anybody "guilty enough" to fire. Maybe the one guy they caught with the illegal data and didn't fire had connections of some sort. Still, they wanted to fire somebody to make an example and their numbers came up. The CD burning incident was probably an excuse after the decision was taken.

Still, it is only one side of the story and I don't know the author of the same so I'm basing my speculation on his word.

After an embarrassing corporate incident, it's easier to look "tough on crime" and fire somebody than actually fixing the problem. "Yes, we had a security incident a while ago. 200 employees were fired as a result. We take this things seriously".

Re:One-sided guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Guilty enough to fire? They have screen shots on the webpage. There is clearly a name on one of the files. Go Look. Face it if the guy was good he would have had a BartPE CD, UBCD, or anyone of a bunch of Linux Live CDs and he could have uploaded/downloaded anything and everything or lay a script file out that did everything in the background and echoed bogus messages while off loading the data.

      Honestly, You don't give unsupervised access to your PC to anyone. EVER!

      If you have a server, I hope you have a more professional person than some $8.00/hr tech. Personally I find the whole Geek Squad thing degrading.

      Now you folks that shop there, you deserve the bad karma that comes your way. Isn't this the place that has repeatedly gotten bad press for how it treats customers?

Re:One-sided guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they figured they had enough on there hands with a porn scandal and didn't need the press getting word of the fact that techs are stealing financially from there customers as well.

Re:One-sided guess

[NateTech]

An excuse after the decision is made is how ALL firings happen. People then believe what they want to, after the fact.

As far as your 200 employees thing: It looks better in public than saying, "We found that ONE guy could circumvent all our security measures from inside the company." That type of bad press scares big companies.

Non-copyrighted?

[Aladrin]

What exactly is a non-copyrighted CD? There as -no- artistic merit to anything on the CD? It would have to be raw data and executables, no artwork, no source code... Nothing copyrightable because the instant that it's created is when copyright takes effect.

Even if the original employee was the copyright owner and had given permission, it is -still- copyrighted. And that's against the store policy.

Were the interrogations wrong? Absolutely. Should he have been fired? Maybe... He obviously didn't read the rulebook. (Or didn't care what was in it.) BestBuy was trying to clean up their image after a HORRIBLE scandal for them. They can't afford to have any more of this crap go on. He did the obvious things, but didn't bother to follow all their rules.

I suspect -all- Geek Squad employees are guilty of violating that rulebook at some point or another. So they -should- worry about their jobs.

Re:Butlers

[computational super]

Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

As a computer technician I say yes, absolutely.

There are companies that abide by....

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I dunno things like the Official Secrets Act. And many other things besides. Some people do have integrity you know. We're not all out to get someone.

Honestly

[eyeareque]

You seem like a smart guy. You don't belong working for geek squad. Find yourself an IT computer support job at any office and you will be much happier. I worked for CompUSA for 3 months... it was a harsh 3 months let me tell you. The pay is horrible and the management is bad as well. I quit my job at CompUSA and started an IT support position for a local telephone company. It was basically the same work, but I didn't have to deal with annoying customers or managers as much for almost double the pay. It also allowed me to work my way up inside the company. I only worked in IT for 11 months before I became a network admin. two years after that I was a network engineer.. and its been only getting better since then. Now I work at a large networking company and when my PC breaks I call someone to come fix it :) (if I dont have the means to fix it myself of course :))

Start searching www.dice.com and www.craigslist.org for some new opportunities. You'll be much happier soon, keep your head up.

Re:Honestly

[Anonymous Coward]

You were an IT tech and your PC is STILL BREAKING?

Really, what are you people doing? I'm an idiot and my pc runs like gangbusters.

Re:Honestly

[wgoodman]

wow, I had a friend send me a link to what was obviously a posting for my current job yesterday so I'm very much searching. hadn't heard of Dice.com before. Thanks!

Re:Honestly

[IdolizingStewie]

My computer breaks more often than most of my non-techie friends' computers. Then again, I suspect it has a lot to do with my tendency to play "What happens when I change this random system setting?" Oh. It won't boot now. Oops. ./wanders off to dig up a live CD and fix it.

Re:Butlers

[Richard Steiner]

Some software developers/architects already bill out considerably more than $350/hour.

Not me, sadly. :-(

Could be true

[ericlj]

The fired employee tells us that many Best Buy employees are liars but that we should trust him. I'm missing the paragraph where I learn why I should believe everything.

Are we supposed to be surprised at this?

[Sepiraph]

So let's see... so you've decided to bring in your computer and drop it off to some companies for repair and data back-up, and somehow I am supposed to be remotely surprised that these underpaid techs would actually browse the data content? First of all, I'd never need to bring my computer to be fixed by anyone but myself, but I would NEVER expect the data to be secure if the most basic and important of all security measure, namely that of physical, is already given up. The morale of the story is not one of ethnics, but one of having the common (or rather uncommon, it seems) sense to protect yourself and know what and in what ways security can be compromised. Surely, companies should be better, the government should be better, the world should be better, but one still need to face the reality of what actually IS out there. My 2 cents.

Re:Are we supposed to be surprised at this?

[aurispector]

I'd take it a step further. You WANT the tech looking at everything. Besides, how the hell are they supposed to know ahead of time what to look at? Suppose you tell them ahead of time not to look in your /pron directory. How should they know the problem isn't in there? Computers are black boxes to most people anyway.

This really sounds like typical corporate CYA. Best Buy can't be seen as tolerating illegal activities so they fire anyone who is even remotely tainted as a preemtive defense against lawsuits. Get another job and chalk it up to experience.

missing the big picture

[mcguyver]

People are fired due to a series of events, not one in particular. No one wants to lose a good employee that makes a single bad decision. Given I'm not familiar with this situation, I'm willing to bet there's more to this story than just a CD being copied. Regardless, learn from this, move onward & upward. The worst thing you could probably do is dwell on it.

Not Suprised

[tkid]

Long ago, in college, I worked at Best Buy in Indianapolis. I worked in the Audio/Car Audio departments. So anyways, one night I'm coming into work and get pulled aside by the LP guy (the goofy guys where the yellow shirts that think they're important). I thought he was just going to ask me to watch the front while he took a break but instead pulled me in one of the front offices. Told me he'd be right back after asking me to sit down.

A few minutes later, he comes in with one of the assistant managers with him, they both sit down and hand me a clipboard with paper and pen. They ask for me to write down everything I've stolen. I'm like, WTF? I haven't stolen anything is my only reply to every question. The LP guy kept getting in my face, yelling and moaning that I've stolen something. He gets pissed and threatens to call the police, I say, call them, I'd love to explain to them your false accusations without any proof even if I did steal something.

The LP guy leaves and the manager there has nothing to say. Granted, I was shocked cause it was the only manager I liked. The only thing I said at that moment was, "I've lost all respect for you at this time!"

So the LP guy comes back and then threatens with police and polygraph test, I'm all open for the idea, this just pissed him off more. We exchange more words, he keeps demanding I write down everything I've stolen so I just dropped the damn clipboard and pen. I proceed to tell them, if you have nothing on me as I have not stolen anything, I'm leaving. LP guy walks out again all pissed, comes back in a few minutes and tells me I'm suspended til further notice. He escorts me out.

By the time I get home, I get a call from a co-worker who's pissed off and tells me the same exact story. They pulled him in right after me, same type of interrogation. We later found out they did this to all but 2 employees in the Audio/Car Audio department. 6 out of the 8 that is.

If we go back in time a little, they were opening a new store and had others help out from the surrounding stores. Guess which 6 helped, the 6 let go. While we were helping the store, they said we would get paid retro type pay since the other store didn't have us in their system. So we determined this was just a way for them to just not pay us after we kept insisting on our paychecks from the overnight work and days off we spent at the other store.

Funny to think two weeks later we show up for our final check and they tell us we've been fired, our only response was, "Really, cause we already found other jobs, why would we want to work here after what happened?"

We all talked to a lawyer but the amount owed he said just wasn't worth it to sue.

Moral of the story, Best Buy = Shitty Place to Work

Re:Not Suprised

[TroyFoley]

I've never had it happen to me, but if an employer tried to stiff me out of honest pay that I had worked for, I'd always imagined I'd take'em to court for it if it added up to so much as an hours pay. Just because of the principal that I didn't set out to work for free, and trying to stiff me on the paycheck equates (in my mind) to slavery by false pretenses.

Re:Not Suprised

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you could look at alternatives.

Re:Not Suprised

[ceoyoyo]

Best Buy is a shitty place to shop so I'm not surprised at all that it's a shitty place to work. When I'm really, REALLY bored sometimes I'll go in just to watch how creative they are when weaseling out of honoring their price matching promise when they're 50% higher than everyone else.

Re:Not Suprised

[taustin]

Your first stop should always be your state's labor board. In many states, that's all it takes. California occasionally brings criminal charges against both companies and managers who try to stiff employees out of overtime, and always takes such allegations seriously. The mangers who stiffed the guy would have a permanent black stain on their souls that would follow them to every job they ever have again, because the corporation would get the snot fined out of them (in addition to having to pay the unpaid overtime, plus interest), and be audited regularly for years to come.

Re:Not Suprised

[rossz]

The last time a manager "got in my face" and yelled at me, I quit with the words, "FUCK YOU". It was also my first day on the job. I won't work for "manage through intimidation" types. You want something, you ask for it. You yell at me like I'm your pet dog who shit on the couch, I might hurt you.

Re:Not Suprised

[John Hasler]

> We all talked to a lawyer but the amount owed he said just wasn't worth it to sue.

You should have talked to your state department of labor.

Re:Not Suprised

[einhverfr]

When I was in college I had an employer refuse to pay me promised retro pay. I complained to the a) Congress (i.e. you might want to have the IRS see if this is just the tip of the iceberg), b) landlord, c) largest customer. They went belly up the next year, in part because of bad press. I would have gone to L&I too, but for $100 in retro pay due to a raise that I given but never showed up on my paycheck, it didn't seem worth it.

Re:Not Suprised

[cdwiegand]

You should file a format complaint with the HR department - in almost all companies those are added to their permanent personnel files and can be used as evidence in case someone someday does take it to trial. Also, I would send a letter to your state Department of Labor spelling out what treatment you received, that there was no proof, and that you'd like to file a complain against the company - that is available to anyone who requests it (depending on the state, I am not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice!). And finally since it sounds like you weren't fully paid I would mail both the store address as well as Best Buy's HR (anyone in the dept would do, actually) with a certified mail indicating your bill with a reasonable late fee, indicating that it needs to be paid or you will forward future letters to the state Dept. of Labor as well as them. Bug the hell out of them - as you're collecting on a debt there's not a lot that they can do to stop you from calling them and getting paid back (those laws ARE a two-edged sword, hah!).

Just my opinion, I thank G-d that I didn't ever work for any of those kind of companies, although I came very, very close.

Re:Not Suprised

[int21hex]

While the lawyer might of told you it was not worth it, it doesn't sound quite right. It reminds me of a situation where my cousin was fired because she was pregnant while she was working as a security guard. She went to a lawyer in that town. He said it wasn't worth it and would be really hard to prove. She didn't think that sounded right, went to a different town and found a lawyer who said yes. They prosecuted and won.

What's non copyrighted?

[Bartab]

What CD has no copyright? Copyright is automatic, and not released unless expressly done so.

Methinks he means "free to copy", such as a CD full of BSD, GPL, etc license code. All such licenses maintain copyright, they have to.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[PsychoSlashDot]

What CD has no copyright? Copyright is automatic, and not released unless expressly done so. Methinks he means "free to copy", such as a CD full of BSD, GPL, etc license code. All such licenses maintain copyright, they have to. People keep asking that. I'm completely confused as to how it matters. A customer's computer and everything it contains is sacrosanct. A technician should have the ethical responsibility to consider everything on it property of the computer owner, and act only as they've been requested to. If the customer asks you to remove spyware, you're free to delete any files you deem to be spyware. Under no circumstances shy of "hey Mr. Technician, feel free to take a copy of the files I've got stored in C:\COPYME" are you in the right if you duplicate ANYTHING. It doesn't matter if it's the README.TXT for WinZip, or if it's SHELL32.DLL that comes as part of every WinXP install. It's not your data to duplicate, regardless of if the computer's owner has the right to let you duplicate it or not.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[Bartab]

Nowhere in the article does it say the CD came from a customer's hard drive. If you have personal information about the case, please provide it!

If, however, you're just ASSuming something, shut the hell up.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no non-copyrighted CD. This is a euphemism for the collection of pictures and videos the group has compiled from customers' computers.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[masterzora]

A CD full of public domain files, such as transcriptions of centuries-old texts.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[PsychoSlashDot]

Nowhere in the article does it say the CD came from a customer's hard drive. If you have personal information about the case, please provide it!

If, however, you're just ASSuming something, shut the hell up. Good news. Same argument applies. As a technician, you haven't any business using a customer's hardware to burn yourself copies of CDs, regardless of the source unless it falls under the umbrella of the service-actions you are being requested to perform. People don't get fired for duplicating AOL install CDs using customer hardware when they've been asked to "fix my burner". My point remains that we should be respectful of the property of our customers. If that property is digital, so be it. If it's physical, again so be it.

This is the valet car-park argument. You authorize a valet to park you car. Not take it for a spin. Not get it on with his girlfriend in the back seat. Not listen to your in-dash MP3 collection. Not read the paperback book you've got laying on the back seat.

We present ourselves to our customers as professionals. We should act professional. If that assertion offends you... well... it's not my place to offer you advice.

Re:What's non copyrighted?

[John Hasler]

> As a technician, you haven't any business using a customer's hardware to burn yourself
> copies of CDs...

Nowhere in the article does it state or imply that a customer's hardware was used.

Re:Butlers

[Blkdeath]

But there's a reason Doctors and Lawyers cost so much. Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

No, but $100-200/hour depending on the skill levels required sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

I was priced out of the market in computer and networking repair in my area because of every Joe and Sally who'd taken a crash course, read a few books or were just "the smart computer person" in their house opening up shop and charging ridiculously low rates for repair work.

Sure, for on-site work I was billing myself out at $60/hr and they were billing out at $20/hr. Sounds great, right? Sure it does; until you realize it takes them 5 hours to perform the tasks I can perform in 1 and mine won't be a cobbled together nightmare.

Sure, a few clients realized this and called us back in to fix the problems these cheap techs caused them (usually more problems than solutions) but it simply wasn't enough. We couldn't compete with the prices, we couldn't stand (or afford) to contract ourselves out for such low rates and we wouldn't dream of resorting to the tactics these places used to ensure job security (namely "leave behinds").

I've said for years that there should be a standard body for establishing credentials for computer technicians that includes proof of skills and semi-annual retesting to ensure skills development matches the pace of the industry and that a standardized set of fees should be established by this body to be charged by its members. If an organization chooses to have their work done by a non-member they do so at their own peril.

Check your rights

[mu51c10rd]

You may have a case against them. Check your rights and see if you have a case.

not soon enough all the way to the top

[epine]

blockquote>
Sure, but if you're above the people you are sacking, you look like you took corrective action to your own supervisor.


By the logic of this firing, firing the subordinate only after you become aware of the transgression is not soon enough. You my friend, are fired too. Darn, that escalates all the way to the top. Oops, loophole. The CEO recognizes the error of his ways right before it applies to him.

Michael Moore points out in Sicko that fear over loss of health care benefits (severely emphasized in an "at will" employment environment) greatly contributes to the docility of the working middle-income underclass. The big oaf compounds his irritable behaviour by sometimes being right. Baaa, America.

Re:not soon enough all the way to the top

[epine]

Regarding my previous post: that makes two markup failures in the same week. Time to shake the crusties out from underneath the punctuation plungers. I usually click "preview" when I'm insulting 300 million people. Yes, I suspect it's a good policy.

Re:not soon enough all the way to the top

[Anonymous Coward]

Michael Moore points out ...

You lost me right about there.

Re:not soon enough all the way to the top

[Anonymous Coward]

you should have read a little further:

The big oaf compounds his irritable behaviour by sometimes being right.

Boo-fucking-hoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Boohoo, I got fired from my job, and now I'm whining about it on slashdot.

Seriously, what's the story?

Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[JustCallMeRich]

Can we start a union of computer workers so we have a little more barganing table? If Hollywood writers, janitors, garbagemen, Disney employees, etc. can unionize and fight back for some rights, we can too.

Imagine what kind of mess they would be in if there was a strike?

Is there any reason that we CAN NOT have a computer tech or programmers union? Seriously.

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[ducomputergeek]

It's called the Communications Workers of America. Mostly in the telecom industry, but also cover various IT positions as well.

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[jalefkowit]

You absolutely can, and you wouldn't be the first, either. Check out WashTech (represents technical workers in Washington State) and Alliance@IBM (represents IBM employees) for some examples and inspiration.

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Blakey Rat]

At long as I have the option to opt-out, I'm all for it. I've seen what mandatory union membership has done to the American automotive industry, and to education... no thanks, not interested!

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Penguinisto]

Is there any reason that we CAN NOT have a computer tech or programmers union? Seriously.

We could, but the question is - would you really want to?

I mean, Unions are great for certain career fields, but this ain't one of them. While yes a Union would curb management excess, it also tends to retard employee excellence.

Case in point - Seniority. You, I, and pretty much most folks who think it through know full well that time-on-the-job does not equal competency-on-the-job. Problem is, most Union shops (I've worked in a few as a member) eat, sleep, and breathe Seniority. This means that merit no longer counts.

Admittedly, these obstacles are few, but some of them can be rather large ones.

Go on strike? Err, why, because some poor bastard in some other company or division thereof got a raw deal by some jackass manager? Screw that. I saw something similar as a teacher once. The whole damned state union (UEA) wanted to walk out on a week of school days, because they only got a modest annual raise instead of a large one... Meanwhile, I had just got on, and had fully negotiated my own salary and benefits --to my satisfaction-- before I accepted the position; just like each and every one of them could have done (Utah state law fully allows this).

I don't know... I guess I just prefer the free agency of it all. I like the fact that I can advance without waiting for someone ahead of me to die off or retire. I like being able to move into a senior position at a new place without having to pay the dues (both monetary and otherwise), or being locked into something I know I can get a better deal out of - if only I am allowed to negotiate it independently. If I want to do something after-hours, I can (okay, sometimes it's a have-to deal, but I knew that going in and I get paid overtime for such cases, so...)

Anyrate, it's a whole other culture, and not exactly the panacea that it appears to be. Having been in good Unions (Ironworkers, local 493) and bad (Utah Educators Ass'n), I know that it's a whole other world that what most folks expect.

(and if you think outsourcing is ugly now - just wait'll the PHB's realize you gave them a friggin' union to deal with. Your job will disappear faster than grain alcohol in a frat house).

/P

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any reason that we CAN NOT have a computer tech or programmers union?

Yes. It's called "self-respect."

Go ahead and form a union, comrade. I'll be scabbin', and feeling pretty good about it, too.

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[jalefkowit]

While yes a Union would curb management excess, it also tends to retard employee excellence.

Creative people can have unions and still have room for individual excellence. Just look at the writers that are on strike; the fact that most writers are living from job to job hasn't prevented superstars like J.J. Abrams (who is a WGA member) from building empires.

I don't know... I guess I just prefer the free agency of it all.

Speaking of Free Agency, baseball players have a union too, and nobody's sitting around waiting for A-Rod to die so that they can move up.

A union reflects the people who organize it. Creative workers organize unions that leave their members plenty of room for creativity and individual achievement, but that still allow them to pull together when they are getting the shaft (as the writers have been).

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[einhverfr]

For me the larger issue is one of worker/manager politics and dynamics. I just don't see a real payoff for a union in this industry (I didn't when I was at Microsoft and my opinion hasn't changed).

The basic problem is that unions tend to interfere with the already difficult-at-best communication lines between workers and management. I think that they tend to create more problems than they solve because they force large sets of issues to go through the union rather than to management.

Secondly the writers' union is more of a trade union than a labor union. While trade unions are a far better match, they tend to address contractor-type roles rather than employee type roles better.

At the same time, I think there *is* room for organization. One need not fully unionize, but still get industry associations going (IEEE Computer Society is one, CompTIA is a very different one). Such organizations can help address industry ills, and also help promote best practices. (Note that while both the IEEE Computer Society and CompTIA offer certifications, this is not what I am talking about. Membership in the organization is what is desirable.)

Our organizations ought to promote excellence, and thus value, so that the members are in better positions to deal with real problems in the IT world (note that IEEE CS is probably not the place for the Geeksquad manager).

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[denzacar]

Aha..

So teaming up into a state/nation-wide organisation that would have financial and political pull is a NOT a good way to stop your jobs getting outsourced?

Got it!

As for strike...
Can you please list your name, adress, date of birth and any other form of ID here so that when YOU end up as the above mentioned "poor bastard" everyone can say "Fuck you! Suck it up.".
We could also add a kick in the balls, if that is "to your satisfaction"?

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Anonymous Coward]

Count yourself lucky. In many places, failure to follow the unions' guidelines and not go on strike will result in you or some family member having a "nasty accident".

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Penguinisto]

Aha..

So teaming up into a state/nation-wide organisation that would have financial and political pull is a NOT a good way to stop your jobs getting outsourced?

So tell us exactly how successful the Automotive and manufacturing industries has been at that (think NAFTA here).

Can you please list your name, adress, date of birth and any other form of ID here so that when YOU end up as the above mentioned "poor bastard" everyone can say "Fuck you! Suck it up.".
We could also add a kick in the balls, if that is "to your satisfaction"?

Sorry, kid - but if you're not adult enough to suck it up and negotiate the best deal you can in your career, that's your problem. IT is supposed to be a professional career, not a clearinghouse for time-markers and the weak-minded.

/P

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Penguinisto]

True - which says more about certain unions than it does about management.

A good union (like I mentioned before, the Ironworkers) aren't power-hungry and small-minded, and have done a whole hell of a lot to make a dangerous industry relatively safe and attractive. They're one of the few who go out of their way to work with management, not against it. They have a solid grasp of reality. It's one of the few groups that look out for their members' interests without being obnoxious and egotistical about it.

The UEA (Utah teachers' union) OTOH are only after one thing - power. They're ruled by ego and a solid grasp of how to abuse petty authority. I have learned to give no respect to them based on how they interact with school districts and legislatures, and had pretty much rejected them when I was a teacher.

/P

Re:Time for a Computer Workers Union??

[Anonymous Coward]

While yes a Union would curb management excess, it also tends to retard employee excellence.

I agree. The problem is that management abuse exists because they have too much power. When you shift that power elsewhere, you start seeing the same type of abuse on the other side. I don't have the answer as to how to keep a proper balance of power. Sometimes unions can be great, sometimes (most of the time?) they can really make things worse.

Go on strike? Err, why, because some poor bastard in some other company or division thereof got a raw deal by some jackass manager? Screw that...Meanwhile, I had just got on, and had fully negotiated my own salary and benefits --to my satisfaction-- before I accepted the position; just like each and every one of them could have done.

If you're questioning that, you don't really get how unions work. If the poor bastard with the jackass manager can't negotiate himself a fair deal and threatens to quit, the jackass manager is going to tell him to go ahead, and hire the next guy. The only way he has any power at all, is if everyone agrees to protect him by refusing to work. You may have gotten a good deal, but you're not striking because of what *you're* making. You're striking to assure yourself of the protection of the union if you someday get to work with the jackass manager.

Whether having that protection is a good thing or not depends on the situation. I happen to think it's good for unskilled labor, where the pool of workers that can be hired is big enough that employers are always going to be able to drive the cost of labor down to the point where people can't feed themselves, or force them to work an unreasonable number of work hours. The downside is that unions make the labor artificially more expensive, so less people get hired. I have a friend who argues this is worse, but personally I'd prefer not having a job and starving to death rather than working my ass off and STILL starve to death. On the other hand, any job that requires large amounts of training shouldn't have that problem (except EA programmers, I guess), so unions usually hinder more than help there.

Fear makes a bad master

[bzipitidoo]

Best Buy doesn't deserve to have good employees if that's how they handle situations. But they sure need better ones than the ones who made that call. Try to get the job back with sweet reason? There was probably just one fool who made that very bad decision, and perhaps other authorities within the company will feel differently, and may restore your job, and make amends. If there's no willingness to do that, then since fear cost the job, maybe fear can get it back, as in threaten to report them and/or sue. But that's a terrible way to retain a job, and if it goes like that, stay only until you have another job. One point of this is to get that firing off your employment record-- not that being fired for "cause" is the black mark it used to be the way employers act these days, but still, sort of like having a speeding ticket on your record.

Or could skip straight to the suing, and then move on. After all, they pulled the trigger pretty hard with that firing. Why cut them any slack? Lastly, could just move on. I wouldn't for a variety of reasons. Self respect. Don't want to look like some wimp that employers can kick around. And want all companies to think carefully before they up and fire someone. Want the idiot who made the decision to be moved to a position where he can't ruin other's lives. I knew of one of those extremely arrogant managers who loved the power he had over people, and would occasionally fire people on the spot, sometimes seemingly just to keep everyone else scared. It backfired on him. The company lost 2 wrongful termination suits, and blamed and fired him! If he got another job after that, it took him a very long time. Heard he gained a lot of weight, which is possibly a sign he became depressed, but no one felt any pity for him. Just desserts. But most of all, he's no longer making a bunch of underlings' lives into hell. This was in Texas, an "at will" state known for being very difficult for fired employees to win such cases.

Any of us who ever shop at Best Buy (gag), might want to mention to the store management that we heard about this firing, and don't think it's right. Every way that Best Buy can be reprimanded for this should be used. Got to get the message across that they need to behave themselves. But I don't expect that will happen, not with this "mind your own business, move along, don't make trouble" current culture.

Re:Fear makes a bad master

[bball99]

- thank you for your post... it shows that there are some folks out there who realize what a bad company Best Buy is...

- my view is from a consumer... Best Buy will not honor advertised prices in local newspaper ads and will screw the local consumer by charging higher prices when walking in the store!

- i will *never* shop at Best Buy again! i urge everyone to be very wary of shopping at Best Buy and to purchase on-line or at other vendors with better pricing and better treatment of customers...

- the postings in this article only reinforce my determination to never, ever, ever use Best Buy for any product purchases in the future!

- so thank you!

Should try tasing bro

[Anonymous Coward]

"A customer came in here with a laptop full of porn and spyware, and you cleared the spyware and did not charge them for hard drive replacement, reformatting, and sell them Windows Vista? YOU'RE FIRED!" *bzzt*

Excepional

[spleen_blender]

Give exceptions to the exceptional. Regardless of how much we make fun of the people who work at Geek Squad, they are much more intelligent for the most part than any other employee of Best Buy. I'm so tired of people getting denied flexibility when they are indeed very unique compared to the average person.

Re:Butlers

[Penguinisto]

Hell, as a Sysadmin, I'd like to carry that motion... if the box-jockeys get $350.00/hr for working on a home user's rig, then all you motherfuckers at the Enterprise level best be prepared to have your A/R department brace for impact... (evil grin).

(and while I'm dreaming of writing up an invoice big enough to make a DoD contract agent drop his jaw in fear... well, I'd like a pony while I'm at it.)

/P

Best Buy's Loyalty

[hansamurai]

Best Buy has zero loyalty. That's basically a fact. You may do great work, you may be super nice, but if they're looking for a scapegoat or someone to take a fall, you will go down.

I don't know what else to say about this matter except if you haven't yet, head over to BestBuySux.org...

Wait, what the heck? That site is now owned by Best Buy or some related PR company? Tis a sad day that so many great stories are gone.

Re:Best Buy's Loyalty

[helmespc]

I can't believe bestbuysux.org is gone. So much for the little guy.

Re:Best Buy's Loyalty

[pwizard2]

Never fear, most of it seems to be mirrored at archive.org.

Man, the Nerd Herd has been really...

[shihonage]

...getting the short end of the stick at BUY MORE since Harry Tang's departure. That man knew how to keep things in order !

Re:Man, the Nerd Herd has been really...

[Killjoy_NL]

Pineapple :)

Public domain

[Anonymous Coward]

Public domain is the only thing that isn't copyrighted. The rest might not be copyright infringing in some cases.

But yes, public domain IS non-copyrighted. By the time it reaches the public domain, it WAS copyrighted, but ISN'T now.

Re:Public domain

[smellsofbikes]

I believe there are at least four classes of non-copyrighted material:
1. Material that was but the copyright has expired, eg Hamlet.
2. Material that is not subject to copyright, like Federal Government publications ("Copyright protection ... is not available for any work of the United States Government...") eg the Federal Aviation Regulations.
3. Collated mathematical tables or other large groups of derivable data, if not used in the same format as the book from which they came.
4. Materials that lack sufficient complexity for copyright -- I can't write the letter 'A' on a piece of paper and then claim I've copyrighted it and go after other people for use of it.

Within each of these groups, there are at least tens of thousands, if not millions, of instances. I bet there are petabytes of non-copyrighted material out there.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

then all you motherfuckers at the Enterprise level best be prepared to have your A/R department brace for impact... (evil grin).

I would imagine that their Accounts Payable department would be more shocked. But then again, maybe actually understanding the difference between 'receivable' and 'payable' is the reason why the "beancounters" typically make good wages.

Re:Butlers

[UncleTogie]

I've said for years that there should be a standard body for establishing credentials for computer technicians that includes proof of skills and semi-annual retesting to ensure skills development matches the pace of the industry and that a standardized set of fees should be established by this body to be charged by its members.

You mean something like CompTIA?

I've mentioned this guy before; he had graduated from a local technical school and was even a card-carrying A+ tech. As this school had the reputation of "pay to pass", I decided to test him, and pointing at an open box, asked him to point at the motherboard.

He pointed at the case. I repeated the question, wording it differently.

He pointed back at the case.

Standards organizations only work when they're not cash-oriented, and there's always some unscrupulous ninny willing to trade cash for sheepskins...

CWA techsunite.org

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out the CWA's techsunite.org.

Re:Butlers

[Squalish]

So go out there, and start a union/guild.

That's the traditional thing to do when faced with a field where skilled, expert labor cannot compete with unskilled labor doing the same jobs.

I was never a fan of organized labor as a negotiation tool - it's full of lose-lose situations, like whether to allow an airline's retirement benefits to lapse or allow the company to go bankrupt (resulting in those benefits being cut).

But it has two other roles
As a political action group, it can achieve things that no amount of corporate negotiation ever can. Laws can be passed which mandate particular benefits - benefits which two competitors individually would otherwise have incentives to cut in order to better compete.
As a standards organization, it can ensure that its members are respected in a way that no amount of advertising ever can. A level of skill can be assured and a level of job mobility acquired by good performance, when in a corporate setting your expertise only potentially grants you a promotion to a level that your skills are irrelevant.

Re:Butlers

[b17bmbr]

A very funny answer for sure, but it is a simple economics question. not how much do we pay X, but rather how do we get people to put higher value on X's services (sorry, I teach econ.) or more importantly, how to get them to opportunity cost of data loss. My school has a job shadowing program. I like to tell my students that they should not shadow jobs they might want, but rather spend time at McDonalds shadowing a burger flipper. That way, they will learn the cost of not not getting a good education. sometimes, most times, we don't really know the value (really the opportunity cost, that which we give up) of something.

I'd gather that most people who pay $15/hour for tech service have never had a major data/security failure. $350/hr tech service is cheap if your data is worth that much. I'd guess that even for most people, this holds true, though they don't realize it. when they do, it'll be to late!!

Hmmm.

[TheSeer2]

"Keep in my mind I removed over 100 illegal tools and pirated discs upon my arrival as supervisor, as well as some remnants of an internal porn scandal." Just removed? Didn't report? Didn't go further? There may be an implication of reporting the persons involved but I can't see it. You're almost as bad as those involved and were only covering your own arse when you didn't report them in.

100 illegal tools were just lying around, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you came to work and had the opportunity to throw out 100 illegal tools and disks, plus, oh yeah, internet porn, you knew you were working in a cesspit already, dumbass.

Nuke Best Buy from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.

Re:Butlers

[Penguinisto]

I know, I know... it didn't hit me until after I hit the submit button.

/P

Re:Butlers

[hal9000(jr)]

Insightful? You have got to be kidding!

You think you pay that much just for privacy? Hell, pay me $350/hr and I will keep your secrets. Nah brother, what we need are techs who are honest and ethics because that is right.

Welcome...

[repetty]

Welcome to corporate Amerika.

As the years go by, you'll recognize that this type of behavior is normal. The company that I work at reorgs every 12-months with random no-cause firings in between.

Don't try to understand it. "Right" and "wrong" are concepts that cannot apply.

Re:Welcome...

[Grishnakh]

Only every 12 months? My present company (and my last one too) seem to re-org every 6 months!

My present company likes to fire people when things are going well too.

Re:Butlers

[X0563511]

13/h?

When I worked at staples, they paid me 7.70/h to do it. As an actual "easy tech". And I was the "business machines specialist" - AKA department supervisor.

Talk about underpaid.

Re:CWA techsunite.org

[JustCallMeRich]

Maybe we should get that information to the GeekSquad guys that are still left while this incident is fresh in their minds? Or maybe a union rep is willing to do the footwork and get them on board and end this type of non-sense. No reason for them not to fire back in this war.

A little publicity on something like this may have a big impact on all the tech workers everywhere - and maybe - just maybe - a manager somewhere might take notice too and stop using us as the whipping boys.

I know what I am asking Santa for this year....

In becoming the wasp?

[msimm]

Once you can sit at a desk with a CEO and help him format his confidential IPO document but don't read one word in the process, you have succeeded.

Honestly I know what you're talking about. I can do it too, but it still worries me. Our priorities are funny.

Re:In becoming the wasp?

[nurb432]

No, just a sign of being honest.

Re:In becoming the wasp?

[NateTech]

You just know that some smarter geek than you is watching for patterns in the employee's stock purchases, and they'd catch you.

Diploma mills

[Blkdeath]

You mean something like CompTIA?

I've mentioned this guy before; he had graduated from a local technical school and was even a card-carrying A+ tech. As this school had the reputation of "pay to pass", I decided to test him, and pointing at an open box, asked him to point at the motherboard.

No, I specifically avoided mentioning them because I firmly believe their organization and the certificates they provide aren't worth the paper they're printed on (even if they provided PDF files). It's also widely known amongst the technically literate which "schools" are little more than diploma factories (if you pay your $8 grand, hell, here's your diploma! You're now educated!) I've dealt with way too many "I have ${cert} so I'm qualified to make six figures! Hire me or your company will wither and die!" types to mention.

My boss informed one of them that he should be a garbage man. See, he was trying to string together an ethernet LAN without using a hub or switch (because that's wrong, or something) but instead by installing two network cards in each of the fifteen computers and cabling them one to the next to the next in a lovely bastardization of, I dunno, token ring with ethernet with thinnet with ...

What we need is a professional standards body that actually measures skills and mandates periodic skills reviews to maintain certification according to accepted industry guidelines. Practical examinations as well as an apprenticeship period would be preferable to ensure capability.

If I'm not mistaken, one can still go out and buy a CompTIA A+ certification book, schedule a time to take the test and be certified without ever actually opening the case on a computer, which was also the cause of the complete industry-wide invalidation of the MCSE certification when it came out.

Take for example Cisco certs (yeah yeah); the CCNA means nothing in a practical sense, but it does indicate that you have some grounding in networking fundamentals. Ok. So you can assist our network techs and troubleshoot problems at the LAN level. After a couple years experience you write the CCNP test. Now you're able to move into the bigger office and assist our WAN techs and touch the real routers. A few years of this and you enroll in the CCIE program. Combine that with 10+ years in the trenches and suddenly four letters mean you can pretty much write your own ticket.

However if you somehow do manage to aquire even a CCIE but don't have a decades worth of relevant experience you may as well have saved yourself the few grand and just written your CCNA because, hey, you're our new tape switcher.

Combine all this certification nonsense with HR people and management who don't understand anything about the computer industry but who do recognize "industry recognized certification body" and associate it with "skilled professional" and make the leap to "qualified for this position" and you have a very large disconnect from reality, compound that a million fold and welcome to today.

Re:Diploma mills

[Wonko the Sane]

he was trying to string together an ethernet LAN without using a hub or switch (because that's wrong, or something) but instead by installing two network cards in each of the fifteen computers

That setup could be made to function with the right routing tables (assuming he was smart enough to use crossover cables). As long as no more than one machine (or one set of adjacent machines) is shut down at a time...

Re:Diploma mills

[sgarringer]

For one, most decent/new/fairly new/not ancient network cards are auto sensing so crossover cables are pointless.

And for two, do you have an understanding of over complicated? It wouldn't work. Windows patches would shut the whole network down, not to mention the fact that any time a machine is imaged/worked on/replaced all the routing info would need to be carried over and the network interfaces kept separate. Thats a recipe for disaster.

Its like the Mac OS X Server class I walked out of. They told us we were going to build a server which could provide network services to a Mac connected to firewire. And, if we had time, we'd get to Windows networking. Talk about having your priorities bass ackward.

Re:Diploma mills

[CastrTroy]

The problem that I find with most certifications is that even if they are well intended, and are supposed to be all the things we want them to be, they still end up letting through people who don't really know anything. I knew a guy who was an MS Certified DBA who couldn't write a simple join query. He also couldn't configure log shipping, and generally didn't know how to administer a database in any way whatsoever. The tests on just about every certification I've seen are written such that anybody with a good memory and a little common sense can pass the tests, and get certified.

Re:Diploma mills

[Wonko the Sane]

And for two, do you have an understanding of over complicated? It wouldn't work. Windows patches would shut the whole network down, not to mention the fact that any time a machine is imaged/worked on/replaced all the routing info would need to be carried over and the network interfaces kept separate. Thats a recipe for disaster.

I said it would function, not that it was practical. Certainly a recipe for disaster in a windows environment.

Re:Diploma mills

[urcreepyneighbor]

"I have ${cert} so I'm qualified to make six figures! Hire me or your company will wither and die!" Dude. I'm so stealing that. Hello new slogan for my business card!

Re:Diploma mills

[einhverfr]

First, there *are* cases where one might want to do such a thing. Hypercube Beowulf cluster topologies come to mind. However, it is definitely in the category of "if you don't know why you want to do this, then you don't want to try" category,

Re:Diploma mills

[scrambledhelix]

What we need is a professional standards body that actually measures skills and mandates periodic skills reviews to maintain certification according to accepted industry guidelines. Practical examinations as well as an apprenticeship period would be preferable to ensure capability.

If I'm not mistaken, one can still go out and buy a CompTIA A+ certification book, schedule a time to take the test and be certified without ever actually opening the case on a computer, which was also the cause of the complete industry-wide invalidation of the MCSE certification when it came out.

Take for example Cisco certs (yeah yeah); the CCNA means nothing in a practical sense, but it does indicate that you have some grounding in networking fundamentals. Ok. So you can assist our network techs and troubleshoot problems at the LAN level. After a couple years experience you write the CCNP test. Now you're able to move into the bigger office and assist our WAN techs and touch the real routers. A few years of this and you enroll in the CCIE program. Combine that with 10+ years in the trenches and suddenly four letters mean you can pretty much write your own ticket. Thanks for the idea, but you can still take it much further. The main issue seems to be the use of a standardized test for qualifying new techs. I can tell you from personal experience, that a test is all it takes to become a licensed stock broker, via the series 7 exam, and perhaps that should be warning enough. But in the case of doctors and lawyers, the MCAT and LSAT are still very good indicators of how someone will perform in training or school. Blkdeath mentions the value of the CCIE label when 10 years of real-world experience follows it, but the value of the CCIE, or any such standardized test, is also invaluable in getting the experience in the first place.

What we need is a technical certification program that pre-screens its applicants and presumes a minimum facility for technology and background. Maybe even a practical test of a physical assembly, given unlabeled parts. At the minimum they should know how a CPU works, if only to demonstrate they understand the concept of a computer better than a lego set. We might even get a higher level of performance and design out of people, if they had a place to break their teeth that wasn't a job in our own departments.

At least then we could trust that the kids calling themselves techs would know what a motherboard looks like.

Re:Diploma mills

[rbanffy]

"My boss informed one of them that he should be a garbage man."

The garbage men are very clever people. Every Dilbert fan knows that.

Re:Diploma mills

[mrhartwig]

Couldn't agree more. While my getting my RHCE was reasonably difficult, I had a co-worker who got his RHCE during the same class. I wouldn't have trusted him to properly empty the trash of one of the guys that didn't even qualify for a RHCT during the same test. And the guy next to me, that "only" got enough points for an RHCT? He was more capable than both of them put together. Strangely enough, he had more years of experience than the other two put together; I wonder if that has any bearing?

Years ago, I became a "Legato Certified" backup admin. After a 2-day course (from some Windows guy that didn't seem to know how to do basic Unix tasks), I took a 1-hour, open-book, test. That "certificate" never made the wall of my cube. May not have even made the file cabinet; I don't recall.

Anyone that thinks a certification should be the sole grounds for hiring someone, or is any indicator of someone's ability to do a technical job, only has the capability to be in...wait for it...HR or management. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Re:Diploma mills

[HouseArrest420]

Its like the Mac OS X Server class I walked out of. They told us we were going to build a server which could provide network services to a Mac connected to firewire. And, if we had time, we'd get to Windows networking. Talk about having your priorities bass ackward. Not to be an ass/troll (but Ill prolly get modded that way lol)....but their priorities seem to have been in the right order. The class for Windows networking was down the hall....where they'd teach Mac networking if they had the time, maybe you should have signed up for that one.

Re:Diploma mills

[Eskarel]

Here's a better question? Why if you have decades of experience do you need to give 20 grand to cisco to get certifications to prove what you've been doing for decades. If a certification isn't worth anything without a level of experience that should indicate competence in the first place then it's not worth anything at all. Cisco certs are better than some(at least the higher level ones), but you still end up with the end problem. Certifications are supposed to be an instant indicater of competence (ie. Cert == knows stuff) so that folks without 20 years of experience can actually have a hope in hell of getting a job these days. The problem is they aren't and never have been, so why do we still bother with them? A+ and Network+ aren't worth the paper they're written on, they're not even worth getting as far as I'm concerned.

The flip side of this whole discussion of course is the fact that most of the nightmares of home user support come from the nature of the game as opposed to the incompetence of the people doing it. I've done home user support(usually for friends or family which made it hard to price accurately), I've done enterprise support(3 of us supporting about 500 PC's). I'd rather support a thousand properly run enterprise systems than 1 shitty unbacked up, spyware infested home PC. The 19 year olds can have it as far as I'm concerned.

Re:Diploma mills

[Insightfill]

See, he was trying to string together an ethernet LAN without using a hub or switch (because that's wrong, or something) but instead by installing two network cards in each of the fifteen computers and cabling them one to the next to the next in a lovely bastardization of, I dunno, token ring with ethernet with thinnet with ...

You had me crying... that was priceless.

Re:Diploma mills

[NateTech]

The only way real certifications ever get started is by liability. I am all for it, but people will bitch and moan loudly if they're personally named in a lawsuit the next time they release shit software.

Sadly, that's the best thing that could happen to the industry.

Re:Diploma mills

[sgarringer]

They cover how to add an OS X server to Active Directory for single sign on in Microsoft classes? I guess I would have figured that since apple developed the stuff they'd teach me about it. Stupid me.

Back up and Delete

[olddotter]

Basically this is why external usb drives are so nice. Using one you can cheaply and easily back up fairly large internal drives. Back up and REMOVE (reformat with the original install disk) securely any data you don't want to get out before taking a machine in for repairs. Now granted the average Geek Squad customer isn't that tech savvy.

So they should at least practice "safe computing". Viruses are probably why most people are taking the machines in in the first place. That and Vista.

The other thing is that the virus and trojan laden PC is already owned, and those pics of owner and his/her honey are already on a Russian hosted porn site.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

God I hope so.

I'm only making $12/hr at the university, fulltime with benefits. Granted I only average about 2 hrs of work a day, but thats not the point now is it.

I have people skills!

Dude I feel for you, BUT

[FlyingGuy]

It is quite difficult to tell from your remarks how far you went in stopping this. Point of fact, you were in a supervisory position, it was YOUR JOB to nail anyone to the corporate cross for doing anything that even remotely resembled breaking the privacy rules or repeating the previous behavior.

The bottom line is this: When someone hires you to work on their computer, your job is to fix it not snoop around, not make copies of anything unless it is to preserve their data, and then you hand the customer the CD!

I am consultant. I work on large systems and networks which frequently requires me to have ROOT passwords, all access, ect. I don't peek, I don't poke, I don't even ponder what might be hidden away on some corner of the corporate hard drive. I do the job I am being paid to do and wrap it up.

If you get another job in a supervisory position of technical people who work on other peoples computers, especially if its ala GeekSquad, I suggest that you immediately, if not sooner, burn anyone you catch doing something like that, tack their hide up on the wall as an example for others and do your job.

My guess is that the people who found their shit other then where they kept it are hiring or have hired lawyers and that Best Buy / GeekSquad are going to be dragged into court and taken to the cleaners for a lot of money.

Re:Butlers

[Technician]

Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

As a computer technician I say yes, absolutely.


I don't. It is for the same reason we don't use $100/hour TV repairmen. It's cheaper to replace it than fix it. I used to fix VCR's and Camcorders when they were well over $500 items. Now that many of them can be replaced for about 2 hours of labor or less, I have found other employment. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it and have no work.

Re:Hmmm. Moron

[Anonymous Coward]

He did not say that he did or did not notify his superiors, but I would suspect he maybe he did, if only in vague terms and not giving names. Superiors do not care about these issues until they're employees are caught by customers or perhaps local news investigators.
Do you ever worked for a retailer? Are you 14 or perhaps a trust-fund baby?
you use the term arse- guess you're one of the English aristocratic twits Monty Python jokes about.

Re:Butlers

[chiefbutz]

Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

As a computer technician I say yes, absolutely.

I am a computer technician as well, and I would love to get $350/hr but I do think that is in excess. I have never encountered anything worth that much an hour. I personally found the course I took to learn the stuff very enjoyable and I find it fun to fix people's computers (so long as it isn't too severely messed up to the point of it needing a baseball bat to fix it). I dunno, maybe I am just some weirdo who doesn't like money that much... ok actually that is true... well the not liking money that much part anyway....

Re:Butlers

[Yvanhoe]

I would also like to add that doctors and lawyers are protected by the law when they need to keep secrets private. A doctor can tell to his boss that a given practice goes against medical secret or medical ethics. There are no such things in IT.

Re:Butlers

[JustOK]

My boss says to just use your back button and that will delete the comment.

Typical actions of a retail chain from the midwest

[asm2750]

All management types know what to do is how to kiss their superiors ass, and blame/fire the guy who isn't the problem. Target management seems to act the same way at most stores.

Re:Butlers

[slyn]

But there's a reason Doctors and Lawyers cost so much. Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

Have you checked Best Buy's prices lately?

What is worse...

[YaroMan86]

The problem with the reason the person here was fired was now its opened the door for something that will only aggravate the situation. If Geek Squad ethical problems were bad before, it'll get worse now for a reason.

The boss fires the employee who didn't come forward who admitted he indeed knew there was a problem.

So what happens? News spreads, employees learn that one of their colleagues was fired, even if he wasn't technically involved. Those that were in the same position as the fired employee suddenly get very tight lips and shut up. They protect their jobs, but now there's an underground system of copied data that could run through any Geek Squad.

Firing an employee for holding back this information looks to me more like the boss was trying to keep his own job protected. But that's my opinion. Take it or leave it.

As someone who does Tech Support for real $

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

I'd like to add a few things.

1. I charge $35/hr to people I know and friends, I charge $75/hr firm to others.
2. I look for crap data right off the bat! If I find offending material (pron, P2p, bonzi buddy), well, I know where the infection came from, and how to stop it from happening again.
        a. If a wife directly asks me if her husband is looking at pron, I tell them that is a question for them not me!
                  (both before and after I get the pc.)
        b. If I am asked to investigate a minor's computer I don't bill for the 2nd hour of searching for *.jpg, *.avi, *.mpg,
                    *.slt, *.sex, *.zip, and I give the parent a report of where all the stuff is located i.e C:\system\hidden\momdontlookhere\SuperhotMILFS and usually the kids have the best stuff. (at least w/ music)
3. If I find P2P software on grandma's computer I tell her that her grand children shouldn't use it when they come over, and explain why.

The fact is doing these searches early clearly tells me that 1. whether the user is being straight with me about thier situation 2. They are going to deny it if they are not. 3. Explain to them what life is like when your bank account is drained to $0.00, and why they need to clean up their computing "lifestyle" 4. That I can make serious money if I "make it go away" and tell them it's confidential, and that upon referral, I'll reduce my rate, and they will be a repeat customer!

Because when you fix these kind of mistakes professionally, people gain serious respect for you!

Lastly, when I do fix a bad spyware infection, it often takes far longer than what the customer will pay for. I let them know asap if this is going to be the case. Then, if I have to remove their computer from the site and do software repairs @ home, then a small copy of c:\windows\CD's I've ripped\noreally\sorryriaa\limewire\*.mp3 should be a friggin perk! Hell, I even ask if it's o.k., and 9 times out of 10 I get a yes, or "Sure, if you can fix it". (once a guy tried to tell me it was all legit, despite the fact that they had bit rates all over the place.)

Haven't seen anything good lately though. Anyone got a spyware infection in WA that needs a uh cough cough, inspection?

My point w/ all this is simply that it's extremely useful to find out how an infection gets on a computer, especially if they have a virus scanner and a firewall. BestBuy just wipes it clean and hands it back to you. Sometimes it comes back a little dirty on the outside though (ewwww)

Re:As someone who does Tech Support for real $

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. Mods seem to be harsh on you today. I figure that insightful would have been a better mod.

Haven't seen anything good lately though. Anyone got a spyware infection in WA that needs a uh cough cough, inspection? Do you travel to Chelan? Didn't think so... Anyway, I do know some other businesses in Western Washington you may want to talk with either about referrals etc. Please send me an email (better to sent to chris.travers@gmail.com).

BTW, notice you are from Oly. Are you a Greener too?

Re:As someone who does Tech Support for real $

[einhverfr]

Posting again because I meant no karma bonus, not anonymously.

Interesting. Mods seem to be harsh on you today. I figure that insightful would have been a better mod.

Haven't seen anything good lately though. Anyone got a spyware infection in WA that needs a uh cough cough, inspection? Do you travel to Chelan? Didn't think so... Anyway, I do know some other businesses in Western Washington you may want to talk with either about referrals etc. Please send me an email (better to sent to chris.travers@gmail.com).

BTW, notice you are from Oly. Are you a Greener too?

Re:As someone who does Tech Support for real $

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

Greener as in from Evergreen State? No.
Greener as in have solar on my house? YES
Greener as in bad stereotype that says I should have Dreds and smell like patchuli (sp?) NO.
Nor do I do any drugs

I'd love some new referalls, it's that time of year when anyone can use an extra $ or two.

Was interested in why I got a troll on that too. Odd I must say, first one since what? 97? ten years? crazy.

Re:As someone who does Tech Support for real $

[einhverfr]

Greener as in from Evergreen State? No. THat is the school I went to. We are/were not all hippies, you know :-)

Greener as in have solar on my house? YES Kudos to you.

Greener as in bad stereotype that says I should have Dreds and smell like patchuli (sp?) NO. Never had dreds myself. Didn't smell like patchouli much either....

Nor do I do any drugs Alcohol and caffeine are about my limit there :-) And even there I have to be careful or else my ability to program drops. Most drugs don't mix well with strenuous mental activity (even caffeine can be overdone here).

I would contact The Advice PC Group. They are based in Puyallup but work throughout Western Washington.

Re:Butlers

[shamer]

the funny thing is Best Buy contracts there Enterprise IT needs... to the company I work for. They will not let the geek squad touch any Best Buy corporate machine.

Re:Butlers

[Brian Gordon]

I work at my university's computer repair department, and it's free for students and faculty. So no matter how cheap computers get, unless you can buy them for $1 from a vending machine in your dorm, they can't beat free. Of course, this isn't my career...

Best Buy/Geek Squad!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not attempt to get a job there. If you are not corrupted, you will be. Where I work, four months ago, I answered our IT door only to be faces with two plain-clothed cops.

They were standing there with a warrant to confiscate two computers,the (President's PDA) and another laptop. These items was his work desktop machine and other machines or devices that could reach the internet or be used to communicate.

This went down because of an ex-Best Buy guy we hired. Don't get me wrong, the guy knew his shyt, but not right upstairs.

He had been arrested the night before...guess why? Anyone ever see the show "To Catch a Predator"? Yep, he went down like that. I saw in the County court system, that he was on bail for $75,000.

So all the while he thought he was talking to a 15 year old, when it was the cops pretending to be. Another one that should not be allowed to breath our air.

Stories like these...amazing they (Best Buy) can keep there doors open!

I know that one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, however, the bad apple started a domino affect on the rest of the organization. So, it looks like a place I would never spend my money or refer....EVER!

They also mounted a car CD player for me once and it cost me $256 dollars to restore a portion of my wiring harness under my dash...Installation wasn't free!

Re:Butlers

[xSauronx]

...because the geek squad will find all the porno.

Re:Butlers

[TheGeneration]

Dude, you know you're talking to Americans right? American tech workers would rather die of starvation then pay a measly $100 a month (or less) in union dues for a union that gets them an additional $1k-2k more income.

OH HAI can you find my music?

[rustcycle]

An acquaintance found some of my music in a porn with Pamela Anderson and Brett Michaels. Another adult film used the same track. My friends can only troll so much of teh interwebs to satiate their...needs. I would pay geek squad a buck for each place they found my music illegally inserted (eh, sorry) without my permission. Geek squad = distributed search algorithm for music placement....

How about...

[56ksucks]

.. technicians that actually know how to fix problems instead of charging $200 to format the computer to fix every problem.

Re:How about...

[MoneyT]

The reason that reformat is done on a regular basis is that really fixing the problem (and explaining how it happened and setting things up to keep it from happening again) takes far longer to do, and usualy doesn't help keep the customer from coming back with the same problem. Even worse is, in my experience, most people aren't interested in their computer being fixed, they're interested in it working, which are two very different things. Doing a format and install does many things:

  It means EVERY customer gets their computer back in 2 hours. Since the process is almost entirely automated, I can take in 100 machines a day and have them all done by the end of an 8 hour day. $20000 = happy tech. By comparison, let's say I really work at fixing the machine. Research the problem, clean up the files, double check the work, set up some safeguards. Let's be charitable and say I do all of this in only 30 minutes per machine. That means in 8 hours I do 16 machines. $3200 $20000 = sad tech. Even worse, both sets of customers will be back in 3 months because instead of virus.exe they installed thisisnotavirusreally.exe, but with the first set, I've made more money for the same result.

It means I don't have people bitching at me because I can't fix their computer RIGHT NOW. There are too many people who want their shit fixed now, and to hell with anyone else, and god forbid you tell them to wait their turn, they will eviscerate you.

It lets you quickly eliminate any stupid things your customer might have done without having to ask them if they did anything stupid, have them deny it, and waste your time solving an unsolvable problem because you took them at their word.

There are some customers who do want their stuff fixed, and are interested in why it broke and what not to do in the future. For those people they get their computer fixed, everyone else gets a working computer, and everyone is happy.

Re:How about...

[56ksucks]

Where I work reformatting is a last resort. Reformatting for every little problem is considered a cover up for the lack of technical skill. It takes too long to reformat. If you spend an hour and a half reformatting and reloading software to find that it was a bad nic card you've wasted an hour and a half of the customers time and money. Customers also don't want their computer to look or act differently than it did before you got there. You don't want a million calls saying that it did this or that before you reformatted it and now it doesn't. If they did something stupid like download virus.exe from seebritneyspearsinherpanties.com before you reformatted it, then they'll do it again afterwards. Stupid is stupid. So, to my boss formatting is a LAST resort. You do it only when its the only option. And rarely do we spend more than 2 hours on a problem.

Re:How about...

[kasek]

the technicians likely know how to fix the problems...however, when i was on the GS, and I'm sure is still the case, turnaround time was key. It could take you an entire day or longer to clean out a heavily infected system, and often times there were still major issues, and you could still end up needing to restore the machine. The pricing was something like $40 for virus removal, $40 for spyware removal. Alternatively, charge $60 for a system restore that will take an hour or two. In either case, you also tried to sell AV & Anti-Spyware software, software installs & a 'system tune up' that would run about $120 for the package. So either way, the customer was in for almost $200, but the system restore was a sure thing and took far less time, obviously meaning more computers going through the system and bringing in more revenue.

Not long before I left, they did install a bunch of 4 port KVMs, but prior to that, bench space was at a premium. We could have maybe 10-12 systems hooked up at a time. You didn't want 6 machines running virus/spyware removals, as that would take up 1/2 your bench space for the entire day. That hurts revenue, which in turn hurts the amount of hours you get the following week / month.

People are quick to bash the geek squad techs, when at least at my store, probably 13 of 15 were competent techs. We were just hamstrung by the corporate bullshit that comes along with working in an environment like Best Buy. You have to give the customer enough service to keep them happy, while bringing in enough revenue to keep the managers happy.

Re:How about...

[einhverfr]

I would hate to have your customers.

Most of the time, if I am on-site doing Windows support (not so frequent anymore), I spend 1 hr, maybe 2 (current rates for consumer tech support are $60/hr). The computer is fixed and they are happy.

Reformatting/reinstalling all of the software takes a minimum of 2 hours, sometimes more (depending on the amount of software to be reinstalled, what needs to be backed up, etc). Sure, when the computer is brought in, not all of that time is billable, but when I am on-site, it is.

I reformat/reinstall on specific cases;
1) Confirmed security breach.
2) Virus or trojan which offers system-level compromise.
3) Suspected virus or trojan which I cannot detect or confirm.

When I do this, I know why I am doing it and I explain it to the customer. Most of my customers do want to have their computers fixed.

Re:How about...

[einhverfr]

There are times and places where you should reformat. Unfortunately, most techs reformat when they shouldn't and don't when they should. Hence we have botnets...

Suppose, for example, that you find a virus which opens up a back door to the computer allowing system-level compromise. Reformatting is the right thing to do in this case because you cannot guarantee that someone hasn't used that to put another back door into the system.

Suppose you are able to find good evidence that someone has broken into the computer? Reformat. For reasoning, see above.

However reformatting because it is fast and easy is a real problem and points to a real lack of ethics in the GP.

Re:How about...

[MoneyT]

Truth be told, I would have loved to have an hour or two to fix a problem for my customers, but where I worked it was mostly walk in/walk out service, which meant that I had at most 30 minutes before I had to move on to the next customer, and when it came to software troubleshooting, that was barely enough time to get started. I was more than happy to spend the time with any customer that was willing to wait for real solutions, everyone else typically got a reformat.

I'm not trying to defend the state of things, just state why it is in many shops. Good, thorough service takes a long time (relatively speaking) and a lot of people don't want to wait or don't want to answer your questions about the problem (whether it's because they're in a hurry or just think you should know everything already). It's part of the reason why I got out of shop work and did field work instead. Counterintuitively, when they paid me by the hour, they understood the problem could take an hour or more to fix, and were surprisingly more willing to spend time with me than when they paid me a flat rate (or nothing as the case may be)

Re:Butlers

[Blkdeath]

I don't. It is for the same reason we don't use $100/hour TV repairmen. It's cheaper to replace it than fix it. I used to fix VCR's and Camcorders when they were well over $500 items. Now that many of them can be replaced for about 2 hours of labor or less, I have found other employment. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it and have no work.

Oh. At which retail outlet can I replace the last decades' worth of financials and client data for my company? What's that worth, the cost of a CD-R and some shrink wrap?

It's not the cost of the vessel that matters, it's what's contained within that's worth $350/hour. I have nothing critical in my television set, however I would like the DVD back when I throw away my DVD player.

At Will employment actually decreases unemployment

[cryfreedomlove]

At Will employment laws, contrary to initial gut level thinking, actually raise hiring levels and job creation. Hiring managers in At Will countries know they can fix a hiring mistake easily if the person they hired is not right for the job. Hiring managers make mistakes sometimes in their hiring decisions. It happens. Just like any of us make mistakes in our other job functions. The risk of a bad hire is low because there is an available remedy. They can fire the person who is not working out.

Hiring managers in non At Will countries also make hiring mistakes. However, their available remedies are quite restricted. That means there is a lot of risk associated with creating a new position and hiring someone for it. The result is that fewer positions are created. Employers looking for new office locations take this into account. They are far more likely to bring jobs to your state if your state is an At Will employment state.

This is why Silicon Valley happened in California and it will never happen in France. California is an At Will employment state.

Never lose the fire in your stare

[Gazzonyx]

As a former manager of a fast food joint (it was good money for a high school student), I've seen a good number of managers who pull this crap. They're all talk. And they take themselves seriously. If you're ever in a situation like this again, push the envelope. If he says he's going to call the cops, and then doesn't, pick up the phone and call. Ask them to come down, as there is an issue that needs to be resolved. If they threaten to take it up to the store manager, suggest they call the regional manager and ask someone to get you the number (actually calling is a matter of politics that cannot be covered in a short message - but they won't let you anyways, so it's a moot point).

If you're going to lose your job anyways over something you didn't do, take the time to put a black mark on their record as well. If you don't get fired (as you've put them in a place where all eyes are looking to see if they do the right thing), it's the last time anyone will accuse you of anything you didn't do. Ever.

These type of people are bullies, and they get away with whatever they want until someone calls their bluff and one-ups them. They always pull you aside since they have no authority in a group; the more public you make the whole ordeal, the less power they have. Even if it's a crap job, the experience will pay off later down the road.

Re:Never lose the fire in your stare

[NateTech]

Best advice I've seen in a long time on Slashdot. If someone's hell bent on taking you down and you didn't do anything, take them with you. They won't enjoy the ride and maybe they'll think twice before doing it again somewhere else in the future. If they have a future.

Gotta Love Geek Squad

[xrobertcmx]

I can't even count how many machines I've been asked to fix after they have "Tuned them" or "Protected them"

Re:Butlers

[billcopc]

These types of associations exist in other practices, and they usually end up hurting the members because there will always be lowballing bastards ready to do a poor-quality job, and clients usually don't know any better. The sweet spot is usually in the middle, higher than the cheap morons, but lower than the pros.

This calls for an anecdote :) A while back, I was working for a pretty big computer supplier, and the boss was sharp as a tack. We had three basic power supplies: a cheap one, a decent no-name and a quality brand-name . The cheap one cost us $5.00, the no-name $15, and the fancy one about $60, yet we sold them at $40, $80 and $100 respectively. Being a naive, un-greedy Canadian, this seemed odd as my instinct at the time was to price things relative to cost, like maybe $10, $30 and $85. Note the biggest difference is in the mid-range prices. I priced it $50 cheaper than the other guy, and even my mid-range was lower than his cheapie.

His logic was sound: only gamers will buy the top-end unit, and contractors will buy the cheapest one. Everyone else will buy the mid-range unit, so make it the most profitable of the bunch. Even though the Antec (with the better warranty) is just $20 more, very few people would go for it. In Canada at least, $20 is the the mental dotted line for most people. Below 20 they don't flinch, but above 20 they think long and hard about their choice. It's kinda weird how currency denominations affect people's spending habits!

It did mean that his high-end stock wouldn't move much, but that's okay because he didn't really care about that clientele, they are few and far-between. Unfortunately for me, even though I got stuff at cost, it didn't benefit me much at all because I've always been a high-end kind of guy. Even on a budget machine I splurge on the power supply; nothing sucks worse than blowing up $300 worth of motherboard, ram and hard drives because you tried to save $20 on a cheap power supply. Well, nothing except blowing up $1500 worth of gear on a cheap power supply. That would be a damned shame!

Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[Colin Smith]

What we need is a professional standards body that actually measures skills and mandates periodic skills reviews to maintain certification according to accepted industry guidelines. Practical examinations as well as an apprenticeship period would be preferable to ensure capability. Sorry that isn't enough to give high salaries. It is a good beginning step though. You want to know what the ??? step is towards profit? Scarcity.

1: What you do is persuade your local representative that government contracts require the professional certification.

2: You persuade your representative that certification is required to practice at all.

3: That's when you hit paydirt. Profit!!!

The key to profit is scarcity. Induced naturally, by law or by whatever means you can arrange. It's how the doctors and lawyers have arranged to become wealthy.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[QuantumRiff]

Ahh, we could be like plumbers.. Want to be one of us? You'll have to be an "apprentice" for x years, for bad pay, and crappy work (yeah, I know). Then, you can take the test, but only you have the x000 hours of "apprentiship". Then you can be called a plumber, and learn how poop should always run downhill, or else it backflows

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[Blkdeath]

Sorry that isn't enough to give high salaries. It is a good beginning step though. You want to know what the ??? step is towards profit? Scarcity.

That's part of the problem with not having any sort of standardized governing body from the start. The cost of entry to IT is effectively the cost of either a home PC setup and an Internet connection, a couple books, the cost to sit for an A+ exam, etc. In other words, the cost is practically nil. Hence we have every high school/college kid or every burger flipper with a home PC and broadband (or dial-up in the beginning) thinking they're qualified to be a computer / network technician.

Then comes the dot-com era. Techies are suddenly glamorous and anybody can make $75k/year out of high school, or if you graduate college/university you can walk into six figures straight away! Dilute that to include anybody with an MCSE, A+ et al. and you've got this massive influx of students into any educational facility or diploma mill that's accepting tuition cheques and we have this enormous surplus of "graduates" who now believe themselves qualified.

In a way that killed us. HR departments and hiring managers never really, truly knew what to look for in terms of certifications. Experience was up in the air because so much technology was so new who could put a time frame on it, and how well did you learn it in the time you had with it? Remember back in '97 all those ads requiring "Minimum 5 years experience with Microsoft Windows'95"?

QuantumRiff mentioned plumbers and I'm afraid in a multitude of ways he couldn't be more wrong. The prescribed method to gain full journeyman status in any skilled trade is exactly what he said and it's there for good reason. First you have to prove yourself educated and intelligent enough to gain entry which narrows the field right off the blocks. Next you have to gain your hours of apprenticeship working in the field with actual, experienced professionals. Yes, you have to earn your stripes doing B.S. work which will include coffee and lunch runs, sweeping floors and all the other crap jobs that come along. But hey, some day you'll have your own apprentice to do the same exact thing. Everybody went through it, new people are no exception. During the course of your apprenticeship you have to attend mandatory school sessions teaching gradually more and more advanced materials which you can now relate to your actual on-the-job experience so what your experienced bosses are telling you starts to make sense.

After your 4-5 years and your x000 hours of service (with increasing pay every year, mind you) you're now a full-fledged plumber, electrician, mechanic, glazier, mason, etc. Now, if this were the case with computer / IT professionals - don't you think there'd be much fewer of [us|them] out there, namely the unqualified sort? The few who remained would logically command a much higher pay scale and who knows, maybe this (digital) world would even be a better place for it. :)

As a side note to QuantumRiff; have you ever experienced a house with improper plumbing/venting? Ever experienced sewer gas creeping into the building, killing all the residents? Ever had a toilet back up so severely there is literally 8" deep raw sewage covering the floor? Ever taken a shower and been scalded to the point of permanent disfigurement?

Yeah, didn't think so. Next time you have a problem with your skilled tradesman, keep it the hell to yourself.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[kongit]

Well to be honest, if a plumber didn't know what he was doing the shit might hit the roof. While I can understand the essentials of plumbing, water runs downhill, you need airvents, etc. I know that could not put plumbing in a house and expect it to work correctly all of it all of the time. That training in the little things and the experience to just know in most every situation where pipes and drains and everything should go is what makes a plumber worth his pay. If I tried to do it correctly I would need stacks of books and have to measure every single thing I did because I do not have the experience it takes to do it quickly and with quality.

Other fields that concern technology that is central to our lives should have the training for X amount of years to be considered a professional in their field. Since computer tech is becoming central to so many lives and companies it makes sense that in order to be a professional in that field you should have the experience

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[bigstrat2003]

Yes, you have to earn your stripes doing B.S. work which will include coffee and lunch runs, sweeping floors and all the other crap jobs that come along. But hey, some day you'll have your own apprentice to do the same exact thing. Everybody went through it, new people are no exception. That doesn't justify it, though. I don't have a problem in particular with a newbie doing BS work (usually they're too inexperienced to really handle much of anything, so there may not be a whole lot else for them to do), but the justification you gave is terrible. The fact that a) everyone else had to go through it, and b) you can put someone through it in the future is no excuse for treating people unreasonably.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[HouseArrest420]

The fact that a) everyone else had to go through it, and b) you can put someone through it in the future is no excuse for treating people unreasonably. There have been countless ppl who have thought the same way, which is why in most fields/schools hazing has been "outlawed" and ppl talk about it in hushed whispers. BUT they talk about it that way because everyone (exept the ppl that made these rules) know hazing was, and still is, a very big part of belonging to almost ANY community.

As examples: While in the marine corps, where hazing can lead to the brig or worse, when we hazed it usually ended up with someone having multiple bruises on thier body. But then again, the marines are the marines and if you sign up with the thought that hazing isn't an acceptable pracftice (even though everyone will tell you otherwise) you're a fool. Take that experience and throw it at a green carpenter. While I was new to that field (I've since gone back to my technical background), my hazing usually took the form of me having to pull 3 sheets of OSB at a time up 2-3 floors on a ladder while the foremen allowed the use of a forklift for everyone else. 2 different examples of 2 different forms of hazing (there are many forms of hazing), that still happen everyday.

Hazing is as much a part of every community now, of course in different ways as in my example, as its ever been. And many communities (trades where you have "ladder rungs" you must climb up to achieve mastery) have grown stronger because of it.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[bigstrat2003]

hazing was, and still is, a very big part of belonging to almost ANY community. Er... be a part of non-shitty communities? Sorry, but any community I've ever been a part of didn't do stupid things like that. We treated people with respect and dignity from day 1, imagine that!

Regardless, the fact that it goes on still doesn't make it acceptable. By your logic, and Blkdeath's logic, beating your kids should be ok, because everyone does it, and one day they'll have their own kids to beat, and that'll make up for the fact that they got beat when they were kids.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[HouseArrest420]

Regardless, the fact that it goes on still doesn't make it acceptable. By your logic, and Blkdeath's logic, beating your kids should be ok, because everyone does it, and one day they'll have their own kids to beat, and that'll make up for the fact that they got beat when they were kids Doesn't the bible say spare the rod spoil the child? I am not a religous man, but I do believe in disciplining my child, because 1. look at all the lost cause's that weren't disciplined and 2 my mother did the same to me and I turned out to be a decent law abiding citizen with no quirks worth noting (note I'm not saying that ALL ppl that have been beat as a child grow up law abiding citizens, but a large portion due...and the oppsosite is true as well)

Er... be a part of non-shitty communities? Sorry, but any community I've ever been a part of didn't do stupid things like that. We treated people with respect and dignity from day 1, imagine that! Be a part of a non shitty orginization you say? Treated fairly from day 1? I call bullshit. Doesn't matter what kind of community it is, working environment or school yard.

Here are only 2 of the reason I'm pulling your card on this. NO job, then-now, here-there, big-small treats its new emmployees like its sessioned veterans REGARDLESS of experience....ever heard of new hire training? Yes, this may be a very weak example of a form a hazing, but yet it is...because to all the "long timers" you are not an equal and are not treated as such. Pay scales are another perfect example of a form of hazing that an ordinary person wouldn't classify as hazing-hell I dont...but yet it is, I've held at least 2 jobs in which my starting pay was reduced from what I should have been getting, and after a set amount of time (usually 30 days) went up...and if it wasn't the pay then it was the chance to enroll in one or more of the benifits available to all employess. I probably should have found other work (today had this happened I would), but it happened...and not only to me.

Any time your treatment as a "newbie" is different than your treatment were you otherwise...you've been hazed. Regardless of wether or not you feel you've been harassed/ridiculed, if someone else feels you have...you have. Most sexual harrassment issues, at least one's I'm aware of, were put in by someone that was within earshot when the harassment took place.

What you may consider harassment/ridicule, I might not (and probably don't considering the forms I've been thru lol). As I said before they're are countless different forms of hazing...not all leave bruises. I used those two examples to show a stark difference between the types of hazing one could be put through. Obviously it didn't hit home....so I had to elaborate more.

But all of this is just a moot point. Because whether or not you agree with it, whether or not you accept it, hazing does exist in everyday life for the majority of the world. Feel as though you've never been hazed...count yourself lucky.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[bigstrat2003]

Doesn't the bible say spare the rod spoil the child? I am not a religous man, but I do believe in disciplining my child, because 1. look at all the lost cause's that weren't disciplined and 2 my mother did the same to me and I turned out to be a decent law abiding citizen with no quirks worth noting (note I'm not saying that ALL ppl that have been beat as a child grow up law abiding citizens, but a large portion due...and the oppsosite is true as well) There's a difference between discipline and beating. I don't confuse the two. While a spanking can sometimes be in order while raising a child (I got spanked growing up a few times, and deserved it I might add, and didn't come out any worse for wear), that isn't beating them. Beating them would be hitting them in the face as a method of saying hello (not necessarily that extreme, but you get my point about abuse being different from ordinary discipline).

Be a part of a non shitty orginization you say? Treated fairly from day 1? I call bullshit. Er... go ahead. It's still true. I have never joined a club, group of friends, started at a job, or whatever, where I wasn't treated like an equal from day 1. You have the right to not believe some random dude across the interweb, but I'm not just lying here.

NO job, then-now, here-there, big-small treats its new emmployees like its sessioned veterans REGARDLESS of experience....ever heard of new hire training? Yes, this may be a very weak example of a form a hazing, but yet it is... No, it is NOT. With any new job, it's obvious that you won't know the ins and outs of that job, even if you're a seasoned industry veteran. Recognizing that fact, however, does not mean you aren't being treated as an equal. Educating someone is different from hazing them, much as discipline is different from beating. When I start a new job, I (as well as any sane person) expect to be brought up to speed on the way things are done around there. That does not mean (and never has, for me) that my co-workers should look down on me, or treat me as an inferior, because I'm new. I'm their equal, merely one who doesn't know as much as they do yet. Their job is to teach me what I need to know, mine is to learn it. This is NOT hazing in any way, shape, or form.

Pay scales are another perfect example of a form of hazing that an ordinary person wouldn't classify as hazing-hell I dont...but yet it is, I've held at least 2 jobs in which my starting pay was reduced from what I should have been getting, and after a set amount of time (usually 30 days) went up... That's unfortunate, and wrong. I'm sorry that you were treated badly, and hope that your current employer treats you better (I mean that sincerely).

Any time your treatment as a "newbie" is different than your treatment were you otherwise...you've been hazed. Regardless of wether or not you feel you've been harassed/ridiculed, if someone else feels you have...you have. Not true. Training is the ultimate example of treatment as a "newbie" not being hazing. Moreover, you aren't being harassed if you don't feel you're being harassed, imo. I consider the target of "harassment" to be the ultimate arbiter of whether it was harassment or not. If they don't have a problem with it (whether or not they voice it), it's fine. It's only harassment, and a problem, if the person being affected by it feels it is.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[HouseArrest420]

There's a difference between discipline and beating. I don't confuse the two. While a spanking can sometimes be in order while raising a child (I got spanked growing up a few times, and deserved it I might add, and didn't come out any worse for wear), that isn't beating them. Beating them would be hitting them in the face as a method of saying hello (not necessarily that extreme, but you get my point about abuse being different from ordinary discipline). QFT. Apparently we use different words for the same ideals. My form of beating is your form of discipline on steriods, my form of getting the shit beat out of you by your parents is your form of beating. KK we agree there for the most part. I guess we know which one of us has been beat with a switch and which of us got off lite with a slap on the hand as kids, j/k lol.

Educating someone is different from hazing them Not necessarily, add in a mocking or belittling tone (no matter how small or unintentional) and bam...your being hazed.

Moreover, you aren't being harassed if you don't feel you're being harassed, imo Seeing as its your opinion it can't really be wrong, but I can point out the flaw in that opinion. For example: If I feel you are being sexually harassed at our place of employment (hypothetically of course), could I not file a sexual harassment complaint on your behalf? or even without putting your name in it at all, putting the harassers continued employement in jeopardy? The answer....yes. And you don't have to feel harassed at all. Matter of fact, short of you sticking up for the individual who supposedly harassed you in this example, your feelings on the subject don't even matter.

I consider the target of "harassment" to be the ultimate arbiter of whether it was harassment or not. If they don't have a problem with it (whether or not they voice it), it's fine. It's only harassment, and a problem, if the person being affected by it feels it is. I feel the same way, but just like most things in life, what we feel is right doesn't matter to the lawmakers and doesn't affect what they perceive as right.

I think for the most part we agree upon the same "ideals", we're just arguing over terminology

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[bigstrat2003]

For example: If I feel you are being sexually harassed at our place of employment (hypothetically of course), could I not file a sexual harassment complaint on your behalf? or even without putting your name in it at all, putting the harassers continued employement in jeopardy? The answer....yes. And you don't have to feel harassed at all. Matter of fact, short of you sticking up for the individual who supposedly harassed you in this example, your feelings on the subject don't even matter Unfortunately, this would likely be the case. To me, it's a travesty, that someone could do such a thing. Now granted, the ability to report something that didn't happen to you does have its merits (if someone was legitimately harassed and can't/doesn't want to stand up for themselves), but it's a damn shame that it can also happen in a case like you described. I'm not sure what can be done about it, though, except to make sure that if someone gets accused of harassing you and you feel they didn't, you stand up for them.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[HouseArrest420]

I'm not sure what can be done about it, though, except to make sure that if someone gets accused of harassing you and you feel they didn't, you stand up for them. To bad this doesn't always happen :(

My example that you quoted came from a real life experience. I was working with a company that did in home computer repair (we also took walk-ins but that's not the point). 3 of us had gone out to some server farm down in maryland. 2 guys 1 girl. Now myself and the girl had formed a tight relationship in the short 2 weeks we'd known each other...the other dude had worked there longer than the both of us. This wasn't the first trip me and this girl took together in the line of duty, and we had been on joking/horsing around standards since training day 1. So the blond jokes, the gay jokes, the dirty ones and all the rest had already been discussed and laughed about at length.

I go to tell this dude one of the jokes she had told me before:

A blonde gets pulled over for speeding on the highway. The state trooper asks a couple questions, peers into the car and tells the blonde she'll have to take a breathalizer. To which the blonde replied, "Can I do it from my seat....my knees have been killing me." and don't you know, a week later I got a piece of paper in my mailbox telling me to collect my laptop and tools from my workstation because I am being let go for sexual harassment. Gargh! lol

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[evil_aar0n]

I can't count how many college graduates I know - in the tech field - that could be certified as nincompoops. I've come across doctors who were absolutely horrible at what they were supposed to do. Right now, we're working with Sun "experts" - these were guys sent to us by Sun themselves - who have made such a mess of our project that it will take more effort to get the project back on track than it would have to do it ourselves from the outset (which I suggested, but that's neither here nor there, now). Are all lawyers automatically perfect because they pass the bar? Hardly.

On the other hand, I've come across folks who were NOT college educated, or board certified, or automotive industry "approved" who knew what they were doing and provided a level of satisfaction that their customers or clients or friends had no right to expect.

Bottom line? Another level of state-sponsored certification guarantees nothing if the person holding the cert is fundamentally worthless. Past performance is probably the best indicator of future capability. Caveat emptor - always has been, always will be.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[Blkdeath]

Bottom line? Another level of state-sponsored certification guarantees nothing if the person holding the cert is fundamentally worthless. Past performance is probably the best indicator of future capability. Caveat emptor - always has been, always will be.

That's kind of the crux of the problem; how many years' experience should an applicant have in maintaining a Windows Vista network?

Atleast with a board/government certification body there would be a minimum set of skills / achievements required to call oneself a professional. There'd also be a place where industry people and managers could file formal complaints when one of their certified members royally fouls up a project and doesn't know enough to fix it (ie; when they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they fudged the certification exams).

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[evil_aar0n]

I'm still not sold on the benefit of state-required certifications, but I do like the idea of a central reporting agency. That might actually be better, if it could be fairly implemented. Much like credit reporting agencies - not that they're fairly implemented, but the concept, in general. I'd like to know what other folks thought of Joe Fix-it, but it's somewhat hard to find that out without doing some investigative work. Almost seems like an opportunity for some enterprising individual to set up such a registry.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[afedaken]

Yeah, didn't think so. Next time you have a problem with your skilled tradesman, keep it the hell to yourself./quote
Oh hell no! If you have a problem with your skilled tradesman, and after reasonable attempts at arbitration are unable to come to satsifaction, by all means BITCH AS LOUD AS YOU CAN. I wanna know which plumbers, carpenters, general contractors, etc to avoid.

Re:Sorry, wouldn't be enough

[Blkdeath]

That doesn't justify it, though. I don't have a problem in particular with a newbie doing BS work (usually they're too inexperienced to really handle much of anything, so there may not be a whole lot else for them to do), but the justification you gave is terrible. The fact that a) everyone else had to go through it, and b) you can put someone through it in the future is no excuse for treating people unreasonably.

Actually that wasn't justification of any sort it was a flip comment that what comes around goes around in those situations. I didn't know I had to justify it, but now I will because you apparently don't have understanding of what real trenches work entails.

First and foremost tradesmen, military personnel, fire fighters, police officers and others who do hazardous work for a living literally put their lives in the hands of their co workers every day. This helps to form very strong bonds between them that will often extend beyond the job site. Moreover a lot of that work is blue collar and that's how blue collar workers earn the respect of their peers. Take your licks, earn your stripes and don't go crying to the boss about it and you're all right. It's not detrimental, it's not dangerous, it's a coffee run here and there, lugging the heavy gear in to and out of the job site, it's driving the crappy truck, it's cleaning the employee bathroom, it's all kinds of camaraderie that you apparently haven't the first clue about.

When I was in construction even my boss exclaimed that it was good to have a green pea around again because it saved his back for the first week (while I lugged all the gear around). It served to show me that they don't get the good pay and choice hours because they're good looking - it humbled and reminded me that they had to go through the rough stuff and when called upon they can do it again if need be even though they're more than a decade my senior on the payroll.

It has nothing to do with disrespect, in fact quite the opposite it builds a great deal of respect in a very short time.

Come on, in the tech office you can't tell me you don't have any form of differentiation between new and seasoned employees. New guys make cables, they crawl through the ceilings and crawl spaces stringing wires while the veterans plan the runs and call the shots. It's a natural part of evolution for every employee and it will always exist whether you like it or not. From what you're saying you simply wouldn't fit in to a lot of job sites anyways and you'd likely be the one who sits on the sidelines scorning those vulgar cruel bastards while they're out in the blazing heat, freezing cold, fierce winds building our roadways, sky scrapers, sports arenas, etc. as a unified team. If you can't understand any of that then stay in your white collar office with your political correctness and leave the real work to the men and all will be well.

However you have to remember the other side

[Sycraft-fu]

The supply. That drives up prices too. If it costs more, both in monetary terms and non-economic things like time and intelligence, to do a given job it will raise the end cost of that position. If it costs more in terms of schooling and licensing, you have to charge more to make all that worth it. Nobody is going to take on $250,000 in university debt for a job that pays $6/hr, you'll never earn it back. Likewise the more skill something requires, the more options the people in it have and thus if they pay isn't high enough they won't do it.

So it isn't just "They can charge more because people are willing to pay it," it is also a situation of if they couldn't charge a certain amount, they wouldn't do it. As such if you raise the cost of becoming a computer tech, the cost of services will go up. If it goes past a level people are willing to pay it won't result in lowering of prices, it'll just result in the disappearance of that job.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[CastrTroy]

How many people really go into debt for $250,000 to go to university? That sounds like an extremely high amount of money to me. Maybe if you became a doctor, and you went to Harvard, and you didn't make any money during your schooling at all, and you had absolutely no scholarships, and drank a case of beer every day, and... Anyway, that seems like you would be going into quite a bit of debt. I know people who went though school funding the whole thing with no help from their parents, and still came out debt free. You have to work a little harder, and you can't go to the fancy private schools like Harvard, but it can be done.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[QuantumRiff]

Nobody is going to take on $250,000 in university debt for a job that pays $6/hr, you'll never earn it back.

Please use google to lookup "Liberal Arts Majors"

What do you call a liberal arts major? "Check please!"

Badabing!

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[ktappe]

Nobody is going to take on $250,000 in university debt for a job that pays $6/hr, you'll never earn it back.

Please use google to lookup "Liberal Arts Majors"

If you paid a quarter million for a liberal arts education, you overpaid. Sure, you can pay that much but paying more doesn't mean learning more.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[Valdrax]

What do you call a liberal arts major? "Check please!"

That would be, "How do you call a liberal arts major?"
"What do you call a liberal arts major?" would be answered, "Waiter!" or "Waitress!"

Geez. Those who can't, criticize.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[NoMaster]

That would be, "How do you call a liberal arts major?"
"What do you call a liberal arts major?" would be answered, "Waiter!" or "Waitress!"

So, you majored in Lit. Crit. too?

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[Anonymous Coward]

Although its nowhere near as bad as 250k , in the UK students end up with an average debt of £15,000 ( $30,000 with current exchange rate ) immediately upon graduating. Usually this is despite having a part time job as well.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[blincoln]

CastrTroy at www.kibbee.ca wrote:

How many people really go into debt for $250,000 to go to university?

Just to give you some perspective on how much more expensive university can be in the US than in Canada, I am an American who went to SFU. My non-citizen tuition there was about the same price as in-state tuition at the University of Washington would have been. My roommate, who had Canadian citizenship, paid closer to what community college costs here in the US.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[an.echte.trilingue]

I've been to universities in 3 countries: the US, Belgium and Germany. In the US, the school I went to (University of San Francisco) is a second tier school, and I was a mediocre student. The two universities I've been to in Europe (UCL in Belgium and the Humbolt in Berlin) are both considered their countries' best schools in the field I am in.

The school in the US was very expensive... but you know what? It was really better. The class sizes are smaller (and I am comparing undergrad school in the US to grad school here), the course work was more demanding, the professors actually taught and counseled, the school had better facilities (the library, for example, had more books and journals, not to mention quality of life facilities). The result is that I am better prepared than any of my European peers to do just about any academic activity. I am one of the best students, without having changed my habits particularly from when I was in the US and despite the fact that none of my course work is in my native language and/b> that I have a full time job.

This may be a hard pill to swallow, you really do get what you pay for, even in education.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[Valdrax]

Actually, no -- Computer Science. I'm just a fan of irony.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[dookiesan]

Interesting. I checked out the tuition for University of Toronto and it's about 20k per year. Pretty steep.

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[NateTech]

No no, that's...

"What does the Liberal Arts major say the day after graduation?"

"Do you want fries with that?"

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[computational super]

• The engineering major asks, "How does it work?"
• The science major asks, "Why does it work?"
• The liberal arts major asks, "Would you like fries with that?"

Re:However you have to remember the other side

[computational super]

Obviously not as much as you think.

Re:Butlers

[paitre]

If it were 1-2k/more a MONTH, sure, I'd happily pay it.
(seriously).

But it that's annualized? Oooh. We're getting enough more to pay our dues. YAY!
Not.

Both ways and as equals

[Teran9]

I am in the tech industry and have used this to my advantage often. The last time was an employer that assigned me additional responsibilities. I said, "Sure, it will cost you an additional $1800 a month". They decided that half of what they were wanting me to do wasn't important and I decided it would only cost them an additional $1000 a month.

Re:Butlers

[fireboy1919]

(and while I'm dreaming of writing up an invoice big enough to make a DoD contract agent drop his jaw in fear... well, I'd like a pony while I'm at it.)

Keep dreaming.

True.

[SatanicPuppy]

But no one who knows the difference would go to Best Buy for tech support anyway. Either you know enough to know that they're crap, or you know so little that everyone is the same to you, and you won't be able to tell if someone is screwing you over or helping you out.

A lot of people will gop to Best Buy, just because they see some dingy little local shop,a nd some big shiny store, and they immediately think bigger must be better, so as far as they're concerned, they ARE going to the nice place.

Not much you can do about it.

Re:True.

[kencurry]

a lot of posts on hourly rates etc.

but people here are missing out on two facts:

1) Best Buy charges $250/service in home. That's a lot, and mom&pop types who would call them (vs. knowing enough to fix it themselves) have no clue that the tech is only getting a small fraction of that.

2) Best Buy aggressively promotes service contract at point of sale, so again, naive mom&pop types tend to fall for this because they fear the unknown and think of this as some sort of safe insurance.

bottom line, Best Buy is making tons of cash off of naive consumers,- same old story.

Re:Butlers

[Gr8Apes]

Just ask any of those companies that made the news about losing laptops with sensitive data.

I'm sure they wish they could go back in time and hire that $350/hr technician for an entire year, paid in advance.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's like saying that Webcor employs steelworkers and not their facilities guy to construct their skyscrapers even though hey they both know something about welding. The average home that geek squad goes into probably isn't running a 5,000 user Exchange server or optical switches for their SAN fabric.

Re:Butlers

[SatanicPuppy]

And gets your job sent overseas.

Unions are cute and all, but if other people outside the union are willing and capable of doing the work for less, you better learn to starve. Lot of union people have been learning that lesson lately.

Sounds Totally Objective

[sker]

I always believe single-sided accounts from the fired party to be 100% accurate. I am sure no details were left out.

"Lost Prevention"? I am sure he was very diligent.

Re:Sounds Totally Objective

[tsstahl]

So you're the person who buys all those papers in the supermarket check out line!

I'd like to have a chat over coffee someday. See, there is this bridge in Arizona... :)

Re:Butlers

[slashbob22]

My boss says to just use your back button and that will delete the comment. So does my Accounts Receivable Department; at least they did until the computer crashed and they lost all account information.

sad, but not surprising

[bender183]

The story told by the geek squad supervisor is a sad an unfortunate one. However, (im sure you could see that "but" coming ;) what do you expect from a company who holds interviews for potential employees through a human voice translator? I know this because a couple of years ago while i was in college (circa 2003) I needed a job and someone told me best buy was hiring, while apprehensive, I went for it anyway. It turns out the interview was conducted over the phone via a human like operator, and if you pressed a wrong key you would fail the interview. I was told this ahead of time and of course I still did it, and it cost me getting the job. How could of made that mistake even though I was told ahead of time? No idea, maybe it was fate intervening. I'm a nix admin now 4 years out of college, not making bank, but doing ok, and I gotta say I'm happy that i pressed the wrong key that day. I'm glad i never worked for the technology sector's wallmart. It also makes you wonder how many future managers or talented employees they have lost due to someone getting a case of fat fingers during those "phone interviews". My advice to this poor supervisor; absorb the harsh lesson laid upon you. You didn't do anything wrong, but dude, its best buy, just avoid them in any way you can in the future, they don't deserve anyone's business or career.

There were three Geek Squad members fired from my store including myself. The first two were fired for burning a non-copyrighted CD for another employee on a non company issued blank CD-R. I admitted in my interrogation that I was aware of this, and that I stopped these events after that occurrence. I was fired for being aware of this non copyrighted CD being copied. To quote, I did not provide the proper example of leadership. Keep in my mind I removed over 100 illegal tools and pirated discs upon my arrival as supervisor, as well as some remnants of an internal porn scandal

Re:Butlers

[Technician]

Oh. At which retail outlet can I replace the last decades' worth of financials and client data for my company? What's that worth, the cost of a CD-R and some shrink wrap?

Data Recovery services is another specialty. That can command high prices for data that is a lot more valuable than the hardware. Often computer repair is wipe and reinstall. You pay more for data recovery.

Re:END MODERATOR ABUSE

[Anonymous Coward]

"Good idea. Can't say that I'd miss your insight."

PWNED!!! :-DDD

Re:Butlers

[Tacvek]

Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

As a computer technician I say yes, absolutely.

Well, I know that small businesses often have to use an external firm for IT, which can cost significantly in excess of $100 per hour. Much of it is simple technician/"repair" work (get the computer working again), although some of it is is a tad bit higher level (Set up a complete windows based domain, including installing the OS on all the systems, choosing the server, setting up the networking system, including securing the wireless network, etc.)

Re:Butlers

[hedwards]

That's true to varying degrees depending upon how much needs to be done. A clean room examination of the drive, if that's required is not going to be cheap.

But by the same token the cost of a repair largely depends upon how much work beyond just the hardware is done. While it is easier to reformat and reinstall than fix the problem, there are plenty of times when for one reason or another that is not the preferred solution. In other cases, that's over kill for the effort that five or ten minutes with the registry editor can do.

Just about anybody can do the reformat and reinstall routine, it isn't exactly hard, but to take a nearly completely incapacitated computer and bring it back to full function in a reasonable amount of time is far harder. Plus you can often times prevent any more data from being lost.

Re:Butlers

[rtb61]

It is not the cost of the computer, is has never ever been the cost of the computer. It has always been and will always be the cost of the data you have created. It is the cost of lost time, nothing is more impressive then seeing a whole office sitting there idle until the network is back online.

Computer techs at $350/hour versus a hundred staff members at $15/hour sitting there idle for a couple of days while some $25/hour numb nuts plays nero with the network, all whilst your customers burn.

Re:Butlers

[ehrichweiss]

$150/hr here for my time. Seems a bit harsh though to charge $350/hr...not that I don't want it but as they say, "It's not what you can charge for your work that counts, it's what you can GET".

Re:Butlers

[CastrTroy]

Also, we have enough problems with crappy IT workers who don't know what they are doing without introducing a union. If there's a union, it would be almost impossible to fire these morons, and the morons would keep getting raises simply because they are in the union.

Re:Butlers

[ceoyoyo]

Hey, I did that! I job shadowed a guy in IT (except it wasn't really called that then) at a pulp mill. That made up my mind that I didn't ever want to be an IT monkey.

Re:Butlers

[ehrichweiss]

"Sure, for on-site work I was billing myself out at $60/hr and they were billing out at $20/hr. Sounds great, right? Sure it does; until you realize it takes them 5 hours to perform the tasks I can perform in 1 and mine won't be a cobbled together nightmare."

That's exactly what I use to keep my clients, and you may want to do this as well. I have a blurb that appears once a month on a local mailing list that basically says that I charge more than the kid down the street, or their family member, etc. but I also don't take 4 hours to do a 1 hour job and my work is guaranteed(plus 25+ years experience helps as well). This inevitably lands me the people who are tired of taking their computers into the shitty shop in their neighborhood, or dealing with Cousin Joe and when I wow them with my expertise, they never go elsewhere. I have to say that I do one thing that few people in our field would want to do though...I offer everyone, not just my regular clients, free over-the-phone/email diagnosis AND if it's easy and they are skilled enough to do it, I tell them how to fix it free as well. This means that they don't get charged if all they need to do is enter safe mode and do a system restore. Sure, I get a few calls that don't make me money but I get clients that trust me enough that they'd pay $600 for a laptop that cost $750 3 years ago because they know my support is worth it.(and yes, I have a client that did buy a laptop like that)

Re:Butlers

[JesseMcDonald]

American tech workers would rather die of starvation then pay a measly $100 a month (or less) in union dues for a union that gets them an additional $1k-2k more income.

I don't know about you, but adherence to moral principles is worth a whole lot more to me than a measly $1-2k extra annually. You misrepresent the anti-union group's arguments by casting the issue in purely financial terms.

Anyway, $100 a month ($1200 annually) for $1000 return would be a rather poor deal even without considering the strong moral and ethical arguments against coercing others out of work for your own benefit.

Re:Butlers

[phantomcircuit]

The value isn't in the hardware it is generally in the data.

Re: Acct Departments

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that the Accounts Payable Dept that has to pay your invoice?

Confessions of a freelance computer repairer

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a freelance computer repairer. I go to people's houses to sort out their home computers. Yes, I have been in women's underwear drawers. Yes, I have found their vibrators and sex books. Yes, I look at people's email to see if they are swingers. I once found some photos from a couple's suburban wife-swapping party they had hosted, and the emails that arranged it. Yes, all my porn and MP3s are from customers' computers. No, I don't steal money, even though I often find it lying about.

At will does have benefits though

[Sycraft-fu]

It makes jobs easier to get. Take a look at France to see a country with the other problem, who's looking at going more at will. With the heavy job guarantees over there, hiring an employee is taking on a fairly major commitment. As such companies are gun shy, because there's nothing like hiring a jackass that you can't get rid of. Young people have some real trouble getting jobs as a result and their politicians are looking at moving to a more at-will model.

Also if you've ever seen worthless coworkers and though "man those guys should be fired," realise you get even more of that in a situation that's not at will. My current employer (state university) is like that. Their rules are that after a 6 month probation period (during which you are at will) you are pretty hard to fire. It's not impossible, but your boss has to do a good bit of work and documentation. As a result, there's an awful lot of dead weight. There's a lot of employees that really just don't do their jobs. However it would be too much hassle to fire them, so they stay.

It also can be seen as more fair to the employers since at least your side of the employment is at will. What I mean is, you can't be force to work somewhere. If you want to quit, you just quit, they can't do anything about it. Given that, it does seem a little unfair to say that they then can't do the same thing in reverse. In some ways it would seem if you wanted a guarantee of employment, you should have to sign a binding contract guaranteeing that you will stay.

Regardless, it isn't an all bad (or good) proposition. When you got canned for what you see as no reason at all, at will employment seems to be bad. However if you are qualified and have been trying hard to get a job, but companies won't hire you because they don't want to take on that kind of commitment, at will employment can seem like a really good idea.

Re:At will does have benefits though

[Reservoir Penguin]

I agree that at-will system can be abused by the business owners and worker rights can shield incompetent employees. So it's a balancing act, which I believe in the end should tip more towards workers rights. Because if we ask the question who's more likely to abuse the system the answer will be whoever has more power over the other party is more likely to abuse that power.

Re:END MODERATOR ABUSE

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a Burger King worker smiling emoticon, isn't it?

"thieves", "stealing"?

[1u3hr]

Why the hell are these stories headlined "porn thieves", "Stealing porn"? Nothing was "stolen" from anyone. Files were copied. The customers very likely downloaded them free. (I know I can find gigabytes of free porn in minutes; I don't know why anyone would actually pay for it).

So what was the "crime" committed again? Invasion of customers' privacy? Why not say that? No one is talking about the losses of the poor porn producers, so why even mention it.

Re:Butlers

[einhverfr]

Well, when we were doing computer repair, we found the real limiting factor was that when we fixed computers, they generally stayed fixed. Hence we did get repeat business, but not a lot (referrals were where we really get going).

IMO, computer repair is an area where $40-$60/hr is entirely reasonable. Even a bit more. I still do a little (just because it is nice to have variety).

Re:Butlers

[Torvaun]

How about doctors? My grandfather was recently diagnosed with cancer that, while operable, will likely kill him if not removed. $350/hr is a bargain when the other option is a funeral.

Not supprising

[Combat Medic]

As a member of Geek Squad Iv seen alot of this stuff go down, from fellow members downloading music, movies, pictures, and programs to flash drives (cant they just download them through bit clients like the rest of us?). And on more than one occasion Iv brought it before my supervisor, even my managers, and the only response I ever got was "We will look into it". Problem is my supervisor never did anything, and my managers don't know the difference between a computer and a toaster. And of course when I brought this up the others would make my job harder. Not to long ago corporate did a scan on our computers, and ordered our managers to send out the hard drives. And now, a few months later, nothings happened. No ones been let go, no ones been asked questions, nothing. It was a PR move to make people happy and to scare us.

Oh, for Pete's sake..

[the_rajah]

It's Best Buy. WTF did you expect?

Re:Butlers

[torkus]

That, and on a serious level it's another sign of how little BB trusts their employees (read: not at all).

They'll have seminars, classes, training materiel about honesty, respecting the company, having pride (sic) in your job, and they essentially treat you like a criminal. Oh, and the pay is crap too.

Does anyone really wonder why geek squad "techs" have little to no interest in their jobs and would rather look for pron (or pics of the guy's wife even better) then do what they're supposed to.

Honestly, i have access to every file, every email, every profile, every hard drive in my company. Want to know what I do with all that power? I check my CEO's calendar to see when he'll be traveling our of the country (international blackberry swap) or in a different office (start up and log in that computer) and let my techs know so we stay ahead of the curve.

Re:Butlers

[balloonhead]

I am a doctor. Not yet a consultant, but a fairly senior one in the sub-consultant grades. I get $45 (australian, so much less in USD) an hour, with some extra for antisocial hours (15% evenings, nights, 50% sat, 100% Sun). When I finish my training, you can probably double that.

If they rearrange the pay scale, I'll move over to the US and work for Geek Squad.

Re:Butlers

[Fulcrum of Evil]

yeah right. You can't support a network from india and you can't build a payment processor/competitive advantage using random guys from halfway around the world.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

But there's a reason Doctors and Lawyers cost so much. Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

  Well I don't know about lawyers, but the reason doctors cost so much is the A.M.A.

Here's an article on the last Great American Health Care Crisis, when health care was too cheap and freely available:

  http://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html *

  Long story short: doctors were numerous, and working class people got their health care through local "lodges" -- fraternities like the Shriners and such. Then a group of hoity-toity doctors got together and declared that it was an affront to the dignity of the medical profession to have doctors at the beck and call of sweaty underclasses. Heck, some of these "fraternities" that young doctors were scrambling to work for were made up of WOMEN, or even (*gasp*!) NEGROES!
  These doctors formed the A.M.A. and lobbied the government. The government, always a friend of the wealthy and important, granted them the power to license doctors, and backed it with a threat of prison for any doctor who practiced without the A.M.A.'s approval.
  It got sold as a way to protect people from lousy doctors, but among the A.M.A.'s first acts were to refuse licenses to doctors from less prominent medical schools (shutting them down overnight) and to immediately revoke the license of any doctor who accepted a "lodge practice" for one of these fraternities. (Formerly considered a good job by many physicians.) This meant that a lot of poor folks were suddenly without health care, and the price of such skyrocketed. (It was still relatively cheap compared to today's monstrously inefficient HMO system, though) Screw you, little guys! Health care should be a luxury for the wealthy, so people appreciate doctors properly!

  * The article, while otherwise excellent, does incorrectly use "socialized" for government intervention. OTOH, few people in the U.S. seems to know what socialism is these days.

  - mantar

Re:Butlers

[torkus]

Well it used to be the cost of the computer...back when a decent computer was 3500 and a basic one was 2k. Then it was worth paying someone 500 (or more) to fix it. These days the hardware cost has gone down, but the data value has gone up substantially.

Back when my computer cost 3500 i honestly didn't have so much data that i couldn't print it out or save on a few floppies. Now, i save my data (mostly) but many people do not because of the hassle. Why do you think someone i work with just payd 1300$ to have ARD recover his trashed hard drive? Because he had so much data on there that it was basically his job (and worse) if he didn't get it back. I've seen people pay way more than that too.

Now the problem is, people trust big stores BECAUSE they're big stores...which i think is a horrible mistake. In my experience, the majority of Big Box/chain/franchise stores are simply horrible when it comes to customer service and how they deal with empoyees to boot. But small companies and individuals scare people even more...go figure.

Re:END MODERATOR ABUSE

[noc007]

I thought you were going to stop trolling with this account: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=365035&cid=21424579

Apparently copy and pasting this whiny posting is the remains of this account.

Be in business for yourself undercut them

[gelfling]

I'm sure you could make $20/hr with a Rolodex of small businesses and home clients and do a credible stable job with a fairly steady cash flow. Of course you have to do it all yourself, marketing, promotion, paperwork, scheduling and collections but there are tools out that make that stuff pretty easy. In fact for some of the more glorified services that GS charges for you could easily undercut them in price. Why? Because you don't have to load your overhead with managers and LP officers.

Re:Be in business for yourself undercut them

[kasek]

If you could make $20/hr doing the job yourself, you could make $13-15/hr doing it as a member of the geek squad, and not have to worry about all the headaches and hassles of running things yourself. A big box retailer is also fully insured, so if a tech fries your system, they have insurance to cover that sort of thing. You may not have the managers and LP officers to pay, but you also don't have the economies of scale. Not saying it isn't doable to undercut them and make a living, but i don't think it is quite so enticing when you think about all the other BS involved.

Re:Be in business for yourself undercut them

[chmod a x mojo]

13-15$? where did you get that from? At least here in wisconsin i have seen the ads they sometimes put out in the papers, highest I saw was $10.50... I just laughed when I read that.

Re:Be in business for yourself undercut them

[gelfling]

I meant $20 as an arbitrary figure with little effort. In real terms hands on work like this can easily command $50-65/hr. Even if you have to travel (a lot) and your time is only 50% utilized that's still something like $6000/month gross before expenses, taxes. Look at what GS charges. It's 4x what they pay their labor.

Re:Be in business for yourself undercut them

[ErikZ]

I'm sure you could make $20/hr with a Rolodex of small businesses and home clients...

Oh. Is THAT all you need to be good in sales? Just a list of good customers? Christ man, you make it sound like it's the easiest thing in the world to get.

Re:Butlers

[vonsneerderhooten]

That's why you should use ctrl-z or the backspace key. They always works.

Back button = Mouse faggotry = Fail.
Keyboard FTW!

Re:Butlers

[hacker]

But there's a reason Doctors and Lawyers cost so much. Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?

It's not because of what they KNOW, it's because of what they DO NOT KNOW (i.e. malpractice insurance).

There's a reason they call it PRACTICING medicine, and PRACTICING law.

Something tells me...

[smitth1276]

Something tells me there's another side to the story, and this guy is actually nothing more than a whiner who was fired for something more reasonable than the crap he is expecting us to believe.

Re:At Will employment actually decreases unemploym

[Fulcrum of Evil]

regarding your last statement, one of the main drivers is the favorable employment laws for employees - you can't really stop someone from going to another company and competing except in narrow instances. The cultural attitudes and good schools in Silly valley help too - you won't find a silly valley in kentucky.

Depends on focus

[Fencepost]

I do support and consulting as part of a small group focused on a specific set of small businesses. We do work for that category of business, plus serving a few others that also support that industry, and as a result we get referrals because we know what we're doing and get results.

From what you're describing you were trying to be all things to all people, and I suspect that that's what killed you in the end.

Small world

[WindowLicker916]

Funny reading this. I believe I know who the poster of this story was and my girl was fired along with him under the same circumstances after working there over 2 years and being MVP and employee of the month time after time.

Re:Butlers

[moosesocks]

...and while I'm dreaming of writing up an invoice big enough to make a DoD contract agent drop his jaw in fear... /blockquote
The past four years have proven this phenomenon to be physically impossible.

Re:Butlers

[mabhatter654]

The PMI (www.pmi.org) professional managing projects cert is for that... but only at the high level CIO/manager level. It seems to have solid requirements for doing real project planning and delivering results, but it seems useless for independents/consultants because you have to have your work "approved" by somebody higher up (i.e. corporate ladder only). I don't see how it's going to not be like plumbers where you have to have really long "apprenticeships" at a big IT firm before you can qualify. Unlike plumbers it doesn't seem to promote "independents" the group that could benefit most from the cert being mobile and going to smaller businesses because if the reporting and structure processes.

It's not just for IT people, but because many enterprise projects that are high dollars involve IT, it's IT people that seem to be getting on board first because truly professional IT managers are tired of the treadmill too and want to get management respect and deliver results.

With med school or law school

[Sycraft-fu]

It's not hard. Takes a hell of a lot of years of schooling, and it is competitive so the schools are generally high dollar. I work for a state university and our tuition is fairly average, which in this context means around the mean or median tuition. For an out of state undergraduate, it is about $13,000 a semester. That's over $100,000 just for your undergrad assuming a normal 4 year. Law school is more, $14,000 per semester. I don't know how many semesters it is, but it is at least 4 and I think it is closer to 8.

Now please remember that we aren't high end. We are a good state university, not a top private school. You can easy quadruple those semester fees if you try. Also this is tuition ONLY, no books, housing, anything else, just what you have to pay the school for the privilege of being allowed to attend.

So ya, really, people can accrue a quarter million (or more) in debt getting certain degrees, especially law and medicine. There are more than a few people who fall in to the category of having parents that make too much money to qualify for need based aid, yet either don't make enough to pay for it or just aren't willing to (there are many parents who believe their kids should earn it on their own). If you are in that situation your only option is student loans. Even if you get some scholarships or aid, it still can leave a large gap to cover.

I rented a room to a guy in his last year of law school here. He wasn't quite that high, having gotten some undergraduate aid and a bit of family help, but he was well over $100,000 in debt when he finally passed the bar.

You add in the amount of money, plus the years of your life, plus the hard work (law school is an amazingly heavy course load), plus the fact that you have to be fairly smart to do it and you end up needing a reasonably large payoff at the end if you want a lot of people to do that.

Re:With med school or law school

[blitziod]

well law school cost my friend( she just got done last year) 80K. That was the principle of her loans. Using a couple of web based tools, assuming a 454.00 a month note and a 30 year repayment,at 5.5% compounding interest quarterly...she pays 828,507 total. That does not count her undergrad. Now she can pay this off sooner but her note will be bigger.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already here. Ten minutes of data backup and fifteen minutes of ghosting solves 80% of computer problems. The other 20% are hardware problems resolved with a component swap-out. The need for actual diagnosis in many (but not all) environments is going down as far as I can tell - probably along with wages. I'm kind of saddened. I liked the diagnostic phase. Now most any idiot can "fix" a PC.

According to Slashdotters this "frees" me to do more meaningful work. Thus far all I can tell it "frees" me of is a decent living doing what I liked to do. *cue 20 something crowing about social darwinism*

I don't go there...

[chemindefer]

...figuratively or otherwise, haven't been in a BB for years. Or a CC for that matter. And no AA either, just in case you wondered...&^)

Re:Butlers

[mabhatter654]

along the same lines you PRACTICE IT as well. There's no book that has every situation in it. You can be an expert in systems, but how they all interact is very much like a doctor or lawyer because systems are so complex and new things always come up. IT really isn't engineering anymore, you figure the average desktop PC probably has more "interactions" (in terms of discrete program pieces and how they're put together) than a city skyscraper... and people don't rebuild skyscrapers every 5 years. I'd argue Vista took more engineers to build than recent construction projects.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue isn't the hardware so much as the data. Hard drives are cheap. The data on them might represent years of painstaking work.

Re:Butlers

[coolGuyZak]

The members could grant the union the ability to vet applicant. The matter then becomes setting the bar.

Why is this guy hard to believe?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but I find this guy hard to believe- fired because he knew about a legitimate ISO (such as a free Linux CD) being copied on non-company issued CDR's? Something is unbelievable there. Maybe its that he doesn't file a lawsuit for unlawful termination.

Re:Butlers

[coolGuyZak]

The main benefit (the way to "sell it", if you will), is that you're ensuring a competent (and hopefully ethical) technical staff. Higher competency, higher wage. Obviously some will act merely in self-interest. However, if the founders are competent and act in enlightened self-interest, the effects of the former group could be alleviated, if not eliminated, for a time.

Er...these are geeks?

[penguin_dance]

"The first two were fired for burning a non-copyrighted CD for another employee on a non company issued blank CD-R."

Make them turn in their geek card! These guys don't have their own CD burners at home???

"I admitted in my interrogation that I was aware of this, and that I stopped these events after that occurrence. I was fired for being aware of this non copyrighted CD being copied. To quote, I did not provide the proper example of leadership."

Of course being a supervisor at Best Buy is like being the chief fry cook at McDonalds! What actually amazes me is how people will be put up with interrogations and being treated like criminals all for a minimal-paying job. (And yes I've been in a similarly, unpleasant job situation--until I walked out. You find it really doesn't matter if you quit--because if you put up with their shit and stay, they'll just find a way to fire you anyway. Either way, you probably won't get unemployment benefits unless you can prove you were fired illegally, which is tough.) You'll also find that life is better when you quit digging the hole deeper and just climb out.

Best Buy is evil according to my experience

[Daniel Phillips]

What I know about Best Buy is, it's pretty much a Microsoft lap dog, and when the keyboard on the Vaio I bought from them failed, they failed to honor their warrantee that cost me $300. Enough data for me. I do not patronize Best Buy, I do not recommend anybody patronize Best Buy, and I take great pains to steer my friends and associates clear of Best Buy.

Re:Best Buy is evil according to my experience

[ErikZ]

Amen to that. Only buy things from Best Buy that are:

A. Disposable, like printer paper.
B. Indestructible, worthless, or both. Like rocks.

Re:END MODERATOR ABUSE

[DiscipleN2k]

Anyone else beginning to think Taco Meat's true goal is to establish a massive link-chain that will eventually tie every article ever posted on Slashdot back to the original post of him acting like a giant douche bag? Just a theory.

How much should an airline pilot be paid?

[TarPitt]

When an engine fails at 35,000 feet, you start emptying your bank account

Re:How much should an airline pilot be paid?

[Richard Steiner]

I don't begrudge commercial pilots a dime. Even though I wrote software that provided their takeoff and landing performance numbers via ACARS, it was *their* butt on the line if something went wrong, and they always doublechecked the stuff we gave them.

Routine flights are easy. A pilot is there for nonroutine incidents ... and they can have them, IMO.

Wrong attitude

[einhverfr]

Before I quit to go into business for myself, I never cared who I pissed off. I did my job and I brought up concerns to management (even fighting to a point with mid to upper level management when there were problems). I have done this as a contract, as an employee, and as a consultant.

I found something interesting: doing this as a contractor was seen as good. I figure I got hired at Microsoft partly because I got involved and tried to fix problems. However, doing so as an employee was a two-edged sword-- it alienated my immediate managers but did help to get real problems solved. Now, as a consultant, it is part of my job. The point is that in all cases, my loyalty is unquestionable, and people know I am *trying* to help. I would add that if I were to be fired, I would suggest that such a company is not one I would want to work at.

Best Buy sucks, including every single employee

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care that you got fired. You suck too if you choose to work with such a shitty company. I hope best buy goes out of business.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

While I did smile at your joke, I would mod your post insightful. As I said the last time this got brought up, techs are like doctors or lawyers, without the years of rigorous training or state ethics boards.

The problem is you assume geek squad "techs" are actually Techs and not highschoolzombies. Otherwise, I'm in total agreement.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do I get the feeling that you didn't bother reading the post you decided to respond to?

That is what industry associations are for.

[einhverfr]

This way you are not coercing others out of work but are helping to build a recognizable presence which helps ensure quality.

For example, I am a member of the IEEE and the IEEE Computer Society. I have found that my membership has helped me become a better software engineer, and there are standards of membership. And I am quite happy with how it has helped me and my business. Of course computer repair is outside our scope, but if a viable industry association doesn't exist for that, perhaps it is time to form one.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

How about 350 rupees an hour instead?

Re:Butlers

[mcrbids]

Until we perfect that whole zombie thing, you're SOL, no matter how crazy Best Buy goes on their $13/hr technicians.

Do they pay them that much? I'd figured on slightly over half that....

Re:Butlers

[mcrbids]

You need to move upscale. Forget "fixing das 'puter" - move into "information management services", where $150/hour is cheap. If you can't easily differentiate yourself from the neighbor's "smart teen" then you don't offer much of value. Change careers - you are doomed in the one you are in.

If you have trouble differentiating your services, then get better at differentiating your services, or move into a market where you can make obvious your differences!

Re:Butlers

[phalse phace]

OMG! Poniez!!!!1

Re:Butlers

[dave562]

I don't. It is for the same reason we don't use $100/hour TV repairmen. It's cheaper to replace it than fix it.

This is very true. The company that I used to work for charged $150-200 an hour. During the height of the spyware nonsense that swept the Windows world, there were many times when we suggested to a client that they simply scrap their old spyware infested P3 box and just buy a new P4 and let us create a disk image of it. Once you factored in the cost of backing up the user profile, paving the box, reinstalling Windows + Office + various apps and patching all of them, it was easily a 3-6 hour job.

I never had a network that I cleaned up get re-infected, but I sure did deal with a whole slew of infected networks from about 2004-2006.

Re:Butlers

[vuffi_raa]

but rather spend time at McDonalds shadowing a burger flipper. That way, they will learn the cost of not not getting a good education. sometimes, most times, we don't really know the value (really the opportunity cost, that which we give up) of something. I did not receive a "good education", I have a GED and am a college drop out (didn't have much choice- I grew up on welfare and was pretty much guaranteed not to go to college due to $ once I was in college I couldn't afford to pay my rent and go to school and one had to go) - I have worked as an investments manager, post graduate studies teacher at a university, an investing house DBA, contracted for many high profile clients during the .com boom and for the last few years have been working in corporate law doing forensics and database integration for corporate litigants.....yes I spent time doing construction and bartending and warehouse work when I was out of high school, but it wasn't a dead end.
It is not a lack of education that makes you flip burgers, it is a lack of motivation and thirst for self-improvement. Rather than trying to "scare a kid straight" you would do better to encourage them to expand their base of understanding and knowledge and follow their interests and talents and most of all- learn to take risks. Telling a kid- "go to college or you will end up like this" puts in their head "If I go to college I will have a good job waiting when I graduate" and they end up on their parents' couch.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, it is to laugh. Your comment is probably the funniest thing I've seen today.

My background? My first job out of school was being a sysadmin for a pathology lab. I got to deal with, first hand, what happens when a doctor tries to use a computer. It isn't pretty. I've been in the industry in a variety of roles. Ten years later I'm a software developer working for a medical company and I can tell you that in all of my experience I've yet to meet a doctor who knows his ass from his elbow when you sit him down in front of a computer.

I've no clue what it takes to become a doctor in Australia but adjusting to US dollars.... Well, I'm glad I chose computer work instead of becoming a doctor in Australia -- looks like you folks get shit pay.

I also have no clue what it takes for an Aussie doc to become a doc in America but: if you've got the computer skills you're claiming and became a medical doctor in the eyes of American law as well... To put it simply there are easily a hundred biomed companies who would love to hire you at whatever you care to charge.

Grr..

[Anonymous Coward]

I know my shit, and then some. Things are changing constantly in PC Support & IT, I don't want to learn some prescribed method and be forced to stick to it by regulation when I'm inventive enough to be ahead of the curve and do it more efficiently or just plain better.

Worst yet, what about the many who know their shit but never apprenticed? Why should I have to work under somebody for a few years in one particular field when I am multi-disciplinary? The field is narrowed too much with these regulations. Don't limit the opportunities of others so the sheeple can continue to grow dependent on the government. People should shop around and find someone with a reputation, or someone certified with a respectable private body, which may or may not require apprenticeship. Don't tell someone they can't do work because they haven't jumped through your hoops. If a license is what it takes to trust someone, if you don't know enough to make the judgement yourself, then fine, just don't put able bodied people out of work by requiring them.

bestbuy

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude

You got canned from BESTBUY who gives a rats ash. The people that hire and fire there are just as clueless as the person that applied for the position to work there.

Now chalk this up as a learning lesson in life and realize where you go to work and the type of people you work around and attempt to change that and not cry about it on the internet.

GOod luck growing up

That really depends on the IT person

[PotatoHead]

doesn't it?

I've walked more than once, when called on to do unethical things. Ordinary law covers more than you think as well. Will walk again too. It's just not worth it.

Re:That really depends on the IT person

[Yvanhoe]

Scenario 1:
Boss : "We sell them this drug, it is expensive and useless but tell them it will solve their cancer"
Medic : "No sir. This is contrary to medial ethics. I could lose my license for that so you have to understand that I will do no such thing"
Boss : "do that or I'll fire you."
Medic : "for what ? being professional ?"


Scenario 2:
Boss : "We sell them this software, it is expensive and useless but tell them it will solve their network problems"
Techie : "I'd rather not, I don't want to make my whole profession look bad by spreading lies.
Boss : "do that or I'll fire you for being unprofessional."

Re:That really depends on the IT person

[abb3w]

Scenario 2:
Boss : "We sell them this software, it is expensive and useless but tell them it will solve their network problems"
Techie : "I'd rather not, I don't want to make my whole profession look bad by spreading lies.
Boss : "do that or I'll fire you for being unprofessional."

Techie: Well... I'll consider it over my lunch.
(after lunch break...)
Techie: OK, boss, I've detailed my complaint in a letter I just posted registered return receipt mail to our company legal department. I also sent one to myself the same way in case I need to mention this conversation to the local assistant DA. So, if you fire me without specific reason, I now have grounds against the company and you personally for unlawful termination of employment. Doubtless you'll screw over my performance reviews to get those grounds within a few months, so I'll be looking for my new job between now and then... unless you resign or get fired first. Oh, and mention this ever again and I'll contact the customer, explain the problem to them, say they shouldn't buy that product for that purpose but that there are a few good apples here -- but warn that YOU aren't one of them.
Boss: Bastard!
Techie: No, if I was a real BOFH, I'd have taped the conversation about it so I could blackmail you over trying to involve me in conspiracy to commit Federal wire and mail fraud.

Remember: sometimes you need to burn the bridge you're standing on, but be ready to start running instantly before you start the flames.

Re:That really depends on the IT person

[Yvanhoe]

Well I don't think that the techie would have a legal foot to stand on even in that case : by not lying he does damage the company and is potentially liable of this. And that is my point : no law says that a tech should not be constrained to act contrary to ethics. There are however such laws for medics and lawyers.

Re:Butlers

[Maserati]

I'd argue Vista took more engineers to build than recent construction projects.

By the 'construction project' standard, exactly zero engineers worked on Vista. In terms of what you can legally put on a business card there are vast (legal) differences between a software engineer and an engineer engineer. Any construction project has a "professional engineer", state certified (strictly in at least 38), to sign off on and assume legal responsibility for all working documents. Microsoft doesn't even know how scared they are of that kind of standards being held to operating systems. Neither does Apple, Sun, Red Hat... Pretty much everything with the possible exception of some embedded OS or another and maybe the NSA's Linux distro.

Re:Butlers

[rbanffy]

"But there's a reason Doctors and Lawyers cost so much. Do we really want $350/hr computer technicians?"

You bet.

As a side effect, more robust (as in "non-Windows") software will get a huge boost.

Re:Butlers

[chiefbutz]

For a doctor that is understandable (and really is a bargain), he must save someone's life. For a support technician it is kind of up there.

What dya expect

[gilesjuk]

You wouldn't leave a builder in your house alone, so why leave all your personal files stored on a computer with a tech guy?

Anything sensitive should be encrypted, password protected or simply not on the computer.

Re:Butlers

[Phoobarnvaz]

spend time at McDonalds shadowing a burger flipper. That way, they will learn the cost of not not getting a good education

Used to teach high school where I would hear on an hourly basis how so & so's parents were going to buy the kids a new house for the kids & their girlfriends/boyfriends...car & such...as well walk into a job making $100K a year right out of high school. Because I couldn't tell them what would really happen to them (hooking both male/female...porn actor/actress to make the money for the nice clothes/house/cars)...let these brats live in their make-believe world & think whatever they wanted to think.

If you think I'm delusional about what these kids think...can't remember the study I read about the expectations & the reality of these brats as the big cold world destroys their dreams & illusions.

Re:Butlers

[Isauq]

You call that funny? I think my first thought was, "Well, that seems sensible." Frankly, less than being interested in their jobs, I've not yet found a GS member who had even half of the requisite knowledge to pass the A+, let alone do actual administrative work in any capacity. Most of them strike me as rank novices that are simply too anti-social to be cashiers. What does BB run their servers on, actually?

Re:Butlers

[vertinox]

Anyway, $100 a month ($1200 annually) for $1000 return would be a rather poor deal even without considering the strong moral and ethical arguments against coercing others out of work for your own benefit.

In the city that I live in, the bus drivers get paid more than techs due to unions. I think you would get more than $1,000 annually.

Re:Butlers

[bbbbbblog]

First there ARE laws that make what the employees did illegal and Best Buy liable. It varies from state to state, but Washington, DC has both Consumer protection legislation that requires Best Buy to adopt reasonable safeguards against the theft of personal information and a privacy breach notification law that requires Best Buy to notify customers of potential security breach as soon as they become aware of one. 39 states have similar legislation, including Minnesota, where Best Buy is headquartered. Best Buy itself claims to adhere to these in its privacy policy. That said, I unfortunately have learned the hard way that policies and laws do no good not enforced, and believe that Best Buy has not done enough to clean up its act. The short story is that a laptop that I entrusted with Best Buy DC store for repair was stolen from the store (I believe by an employee). I endured 3 months of lies about its repair status before one employee finally saw fit to fess up and tell me that there was no record it had ever shipped from the store. Not only did Best Buy fail to protect my property, but they failed to disclose that the computer was missing and that I was risk of identity theft the entire time. Now I'm stuck paying for identity theft protection and credit monitoring for years ahead. Despite Consumerist's efforts, Best Buy's privacy protection system is broken across the board. I filed a lawsuit and have launched a blog detailing the background and motivation for the lawsuit, if anyone is interested. http://bestbuybadbuyboycott.blogspot.com/ RC

Re:At Will employment actually decreases unemploym

[jonatha]

The cultural attitudes and good schools in Silly valley help too - you won't find a silly valley in kentucky.

Of course you won't. We call it Silicon Holler....

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah as a tech that does over the phone support for end users (I'm working in north America, we can't all be in India) I could go for a $300/hr pay hike.

The truth is, as we have seen in the automotive repair industry, you can have cheep and corrupt or you can have bloody expensive and totally ethical. We have to get the populace to realize that we are not the geeks we used to be, now we are grown up and in control of the information.

Hell if there was an IT union and it went on strike in a major city how fast do you think the business that they were fighting would settle?

Really?

[olddotter]

I went back and read all of the related articles for the heck of it. And the thing that strikes me about this is who on slashdot ever believed that the geek squad is made up of "most uber of computer savvy people you've ever seen"?

Re:Butlers

[AusIV]

You think you pay that much just for privacy? Hell, pay me $350/hr and I will keep your secrets. Nah brother, what we need are techs who are honest and ethics because that is right.

Paying more means you can attract more highly qualified applicants. If you're paying someone $13/hr to do tech support, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel as computer technicians go.

Suppose you were a $13/hr tech, and the computer you're repairing has 3,500 songs on it. Presently, that's about $3,465, or 267 hours of work. There's probably not much chance you'll get caught if you just copy those files over to your external drive, and it's more music than you could buy with 7 weeks of work.

Sure, you and I might say it's not worth it, but I could likely find a job for at least $30/hr, and I've not yet finished my degree. If you're paying $350/hr for your technical work, 3,500 songs can be bought on a week's worth of work, so the risk probably out weighs the benefit.

Valuable personal information is probably a better example than music. If a low paid tech runs across some financial information or a file full of passwords that they could sell or abuse for a big chunk of change, their job can be damned - they've got a quicker source of income. If you want to keep people honest, they need to have a lot to lose if they get caught, and a $13/hr job probably isn't a huge incentive.

Point is, if you want people who will "act like professionals," you need to find skilled people and pay them like professionals. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ex BBY Employee

[Kranfer]

I was a tech at best Buy before it became the gay squad... I mean geek, yes geek. Anyway, I have been witness to this before, myself, and more. One thing that we as consumers need to keep in mind is that Tech services is mostly 100% profit. So it Service Plans. When you buy a PC from Best Buy, contact the manufacturer for info on their service plans, they are usually cheaper and cover more. Plus in home service most of the time. Managers, on the other hand will yell/scream/threaten employees if they cannot sell these lowly Service plans to the customer. Managers are of the opinion that they are God, and they are untouchable. Now, as my experience as a tech in Albany, NY and Saratoga Springs, NY... I have witnessed techs harass, lie to, and yes, even purposefully break customer machines. Don't buy a service plan? The tech would have busted the CD Row drive on that nice $2000 SONY laptop. Whoops, sorry! I have also seen techs take porn off customer machines too. While you always see it when trying to fix a machine, I never really cared for it. However, I did have a nice man arrested for child porn. The managers didn't care, thought it was bad press for the store. Whatever though. But, as other techs stole porn, they also showed it to yes, under age employees (16, 17 year old) who were sales guys or cashiers... Best Buy has always had some major issues with SOP/policies/ethics/morals/being human... I hope some day they change. But, then again I also hope that someday the beast dies off and a more worthy technology store rises from the ashes.

Re:Butlers

[HouseArrest420]

QFT

Electronic Equipment Service and Repair seemed like such a good idea for a small business back when personal cd players where made of metal with windows made of plexi (sp?) glass. Oh how the times have changed....and relatively quickly too.

Re:END MODERATOR ABUSE

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Most of you are a bunch of mindless sheeple.

Translation:

Everyone is crazy except me, I tell you, except meeeeee!

Re:Butlers

[heinousjay]

If you think I'm delusional about what these kids think...can't remember the study I read about the expectations & the reality of these brats as the big cold world destroys their dreams & illusions.

Well you certainly cleared that up.

Re:Butlers

[bluefoxlucid]

If there was an IT union, 5% of us would have 20 times more pay. Well, 3% after we took down a few companies by refusing to let them fire us and then only taking pay cuts after hefty and expensive medical insurance improvements well beyond what any normal high-paying job gives.

Ford wanted to close 16 factories to scale back their production costs to meet demand; the unions forbade them from closing more than 6, and won't let them fire anyone. Slight pay cuts come at the cost of more expensive medical insurance. On top of paying 60,000 more workers than they'd like (they have 300,000), they have 10 more of the million-dollars-a-month-to-run production facilities to scale back to produce cars slower. Result? Ford mortgaged 100% of their assets, and since they can't PROPERLY reorganize (their owners know how to do it right) they are in danger of collapsing horribly (this hasn't been said yet; Ford likes to claim they believe they can get out of it. They can, it's just going to be very HARD and slight market force problems can cause major problems for Ford).

I work in IT, and I make damn near nothing. As time goes by my pay will go up, I'll probably be making 5 times what I make now in 10 years, and I think within 3 years I should be making more than I can spend. Fuck you and fuck your unions.

Liberal arts majors

[hawk]

Actually, if you look at the studies, liberal arts majors do *better* than business majors in business. Sure, their chances of getting a reasonably paying job in their major field are close to the proverbial ice cube's chance, but . . .

(No, I don't have the cites to those articles handy. Also, I believe that the business majors had higher starting salaries, but were "passed" by the liberal arts majors.)

hawk

Re:Butlers

[blueskies]

American tech workers would rather die of starvation then pay a measly $100 a month (or less) in union dues for a union that gets them an additional $1k-2k more income.

100 measly dollars a month * 12 months = $1200 a year.

And Americans are the idiots for not spending $1200 to make $1k more income?

And they don't have to answer to a stupid union that encourages everyone to work less and lazier.

Liberal Arts != Humanities

[TerranFury]

Did you know that someone who studied math or physics is also a liberal arts major? The phrase "liberal arts" refers to a well-rounded course of study that is not simply training for a vocation. It does not mean "just touchy-feely humanities."

Someone who studied "Gender in Icelandic Literature" and can't differentiate a polynomial did not truly pursue a Liberal* education.

(* Obviously, 'Liberal' has a different meaning here than it does when we talk about politics. I wonder if that political association damages "Liberal Arts" by making people incorrectly assume partisanship from the name itself.)

The prototypical real liberal arts major is probably someone with a philosophy major and a math minor who took some courses in Classical literature. That person is probably capable of more than waiting tables!

Re:Butlers

[abb3w]

No, but $100-200/hour depending on the skill levels required sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

The problem with Best Buy's Geek Squad is not primarily the level of skill, but the level of ethics (like doctors and lawyers) about Confidentiality which practitioners should have... and demonstrate. The problem with Best Buy's methods seems to be that they're more worried about having a bad reputation than bad performance, and are focusing on compliance with company policy rather than on the actual ethics of the conduct. They'll end up with people who don't get caught or admit to breaking the rules, but who don't care about doing the right thing for the customer.

Quietly trying stings like The Consumerist did would work better. Consulting a professional ethicist rather than lawyers or PR types on how to fix the problem might work better.

Re:Butlers

[Door-opening Fascist]

Unions are probably a big part of that, but it might also be a result of the cost of mistakes. Except in medical, military or aviation industries, when a tech screws up people don't die. When a bus driver screws up, lots of people can die.

Re:Butlers

[Brandybuck]

An additional $1k-2k more income ...at the cost of limiting entry into the field. That's what unions are for, to limit the competition. Back in the days when you had a lifelong career, it may have made sense. But we change careers far too often these days, an the technology is changing too rapidly. Unionization would mean continual recertification, always working your way up from apprentice.

Sorry Bob, we can't hire you. We really do need your extensive ASP.net knowledge, but at $350 an hour, we just can't afford you. We can start you out as janitor, though. After ten years of sucking up to the senior architect (who has a law degree and can't write a "hello world" program, btw), we might be able to promote you to level I code maintenance tech.

You also get the associated drop in product quality. Fix the bug I created last commit? Hell no, that's not in my job description!

Draconian, Best Buy hasn't seen anything yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Their new CIO will run the company into the ground. She hasn't left her last 2 jobs on good terms, and who knows how many others. Draconian would be a step up on how she treated employees at her last 2 engagements. Rumors of kickbacks, extravagant spending on the companies dime, etc. all hidden behind deflection of her mistreatment, and bad decision making, which is costing her last company millions. The high geek squad prices will probably be used for her shopping and limousine addictions.

Re:Butlers

[Technician]

Plus you can often times prevent any more data from being lost.

Keep a live Ubuntu CD handy. You might be surprised at the ease of recovering some data to a USB drive can be.

Fighting the Owned machine is often a waste of lots of un-billable flat rate time. Boot it with you owning it, recover data, scan it for junk, reformat, reinstall and ship it.

take a nearly completely incapacitated computer and bring it back to full function in a reasonable amount of time is far harder.

Why waste the time. It often takes more time than can be billed.

10 hours of trying to eradicate a polymorphic virus is a waste of time and money.

Re:Butlers

[Technician]

Electronic Equipment Service and Repair seemed like such a good idea for a small business back when personal cd players where made of metal with windows made of plexi (sp?) glass. Oh how the times have changed....and relatively quickly too.

Skip consumer products. Go industrial. The servo systems are the same. The automation is the same. The hardware is bigger and networked. This isn't the cheap stuff. It still pays to maintain these.

http://www.asyst.com/products/fsol/amhs/sahms.asp
http://www.robots.com/
http://www.robots.com/parts.php

They still are made of mechanical parts that wear and go out of tolerance. They need mechanical parts changed and repaired. They need tested to see if they are within specifications for placement accuracy. It's good work and these are rarely simply trashed instead of repaired.

Re:Butlers

[PopeJM]

ideally unions and the owners of ford shouldn't be at odds, they should be both involved in the profit margins directly and the expenses, that way they would realize when the company would be hurt by something they wanted to force on it and that they would see postive monetary results when they improve the company's standing.

Re:Butlers

[blitziod]

the whole purpose of a union is the fact that in some areas employers and employees are at odds. take salary as an example! The problem in the US is that the vast majority of people who need unions have NONE! Ford can say FUCK YOU and move the factory to china( at some point) but walmart can;t move it's stores to china ...nor can best buy move geek squad.

Re:Butlers

[blitziod]

that is funny...i dropped out of college...lack of funds. I make more than a lot of people with BA's and at every job I have ..I have a few work for me. If I had an 18 y/o son I would not tell him to go to college. There are FAR better career paths one can take that are paid training. One example: a friend of mine started working as a plumber when he was 18( well a helper) by the time everyone else( well not me) was just getting out of college with 100k of loans to repay he was licensed MASTER plumber making about 60k per year with 0 loans to repay. As a master plumber he really did not have to touch a tool, just hang his license on the wall and answer questions when other ( younger) guys needed help. by age 29 this cat had a house halfway paid for and was a plumbing inspector making 6 figures. I bet he works less hours than most guys in IT do for the same bread.

Re:Butlers

[blitziod]

it still does....right now in my area( 150k pop. ) there is 1 guy that will do warrantee work on big screen tv's. My store( one of maybe 25 in the area) send him about 1000 dollars a month worth of work. We would send him more but he will not take it.

Re:Butlers

[Anonymous Coward]

Well - since your sample size is one, I will counter with my sample size of one...

I did do the college path, took 6 years to graduate (to much vodka) and got a crap job making about 38k doing stupid work... less than four year later (i am now 28), I am now a (software) architect, own real estate investments, and bring home over 6 figures myself (and do my own plumbing, so there MASTER plumber) ...

i think that is a matter of passion... while my friends are out at the bars spending their dough, I am reading MSDN, studying for my master's degree, reading up on the lastest buzzwords (can't sell software that does not adhere to the lastest buzzwords), etc...

AND - i also figured out how to get married

Re:Butlers

[Technician]

We would send him more but he will not take it.

Warranty work is just to fill in on regular business. When I was in the industry, it was common for the brands to set flat rates for repairs, often way below going rates. To make matters worse, it was common to have about 10-20 percent of the claims rejected. You don't make a living doing warranty repairs. You do warranty repairs to learn the new tech so you are trained and have the manuals, parts, knowledge what sets are in the market and of various failure modes for when it goes off warranty. This gives you a leg up on the competition who is trying to troubleshoot the stuff cold turkey. You have already seen most of the common failures and can turn repairs at a profitable rate.

Just for grins, ask the shop about what I just stated. I am wondering if anything has changed in the warranty repair business. It paid poorly.

Re:Butlers

[Meski]

I used to fix my own. Until it got too hard to get spares, and I imagine that applied somewhat to companies that were doing it. Rubber pinch rollers seemed to be the real killer. When they split, they were no longer available.

Re: Parts sources

[Technician]

I used to fix my own. Until it got too hard to get spares, and I imagine that applied somewhat to companies that were doing it. Rubber pinch rollers seemed to be the real killer. When they split, they were no longer available.

For DIY, it can be hard. For dealers and shops, there is many aftermarket parts sources for the LNA rubber parts. It's much like the auto parts industry. If you can't find the genuine Mopar replacement headlamp bulb, you go armed with make and model and hit the cross refrence. You may find the Sylvania 9004 bulb is an exact replacement.

Check with Diversified Parts and Consolidated Electronics. They used to be dealer only, but with the world going online, you may be able to get orders filled. I wouldn't know the current situation as I left the industry over a decade ago.

http://www.ceitron.com/
http://tacpservice.toshiba.com/ConsumerProductSupport/consumer_parts.htm

Re:Butlers

[NateTech]

Hell, yes. And you can require licenses and place liability on me for my work (including liability insurance) too. Just like a Doc.

I'll gladly jump through the hoops and watch the idiots leave the industry. And make the money.

The rest can get out and go play Wii or whatever they want. Some of us are pros and would love to see this industry grow up, finally.

Re:Butlers

[bungo]

I would imagine that their Accounts Payable department would be more shocked. But then again, maybe actually understanding the difference between 'receivable' and 'payable'

Speak for yourself, I have all of my payments put through as AR credit notes, that way I can get past the approval limits set up in AP!

Now, so long as those pesky SOX auditors don't notice ......