Should Apple Give Back Replaced Disks?

theodp writes "As if having to pay $160 to replace a failed 80-GB drive wasn't bad enough, Dave Winer learned to his dismay that Apple had no intention of giving him back the disk he paid them to replace. Since it contained sensitive data like source code and account info, Dave rightly worries about what happens if the drive falls into the wrong hands. Which raises an important question: In an age of identity theft and other confidentiality concerns, is it time for Apple — and other computer manufacturers — to start following the practice of auto mechanics and give you the option of getting back disks that are replaced?"

Comments

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who really cares what a bunch of hipsters at starbucks record about themselves anyways.

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful of your wanton heresy!

Always?

[mastershake_phd]

Do you always get your part back at the mechanic? Aren't some parts "cores" used to make remanufactured parts? Just like PC drives?

Re:Always?

[JesseL]

In cases like that you should have the option to pay the "core charge" and get your part back.

Re:Always?

[beyonddeath]

you can pay the cost of the core to keep the core, if for some reason you had sensitive data in your.. oh say water pump. If apple is going to keep your drive as a core for a remanufactured drive, they sure as shit better give you the value of that part as an auto mechanic would.

Re:Always?

[darkhitman]

Do car parts have your social security number on them? No? Bit different, then.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

Do you always get your part back at the mechanic? Aren't some parts "cores" used to make remanufactured parts? Just like PC drives? Core charges, as with automotive parts, only apply to refurbished components. For example, when I replace my brakes in my car I buy calipers pre-loaded with pads making replacement a matter of
1. removing 4 lugnuts x 2
2. removing two bolts x 2
3. removing one hose x 2
4. Disc removal + machine shop x 2

Financially it's on par with with pad replacement at a shop, but assurance of new rubber seals, and downtime is far less. If I wanted to keep the old ones, I'd buy new calipers which are often not pre-loaded. But I'm not a master of pad replacement and I support re-using of everything.

For an HD, if i'm buying a new drive I would expect to have the option of keeping the old one. I would support recycling if it was an option.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

I forgot to add in my state, or at least the stores I shop at, new tires and batteries cost more without the old ones, but this is for environmental reasons. But it's not called a core charge but rather an environmental fee or some such.

Re:Always?

[eli pabst]

I'm not sure how true that is. Every time I've been charged a "core charge", it's on something that has expensive (and reusable) material in it that can generally be made into a re-manufactured/refurbished part. For example the metal in batteries and distributors is inherently valuable, hence they charge you what amounts to a "deposit".

Re:Always?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Do you always get your part back at the mechanic? "

Do your car parts contain sensitive data?

Re:Always?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Core charges are on things like brake pads, alternators, and water pumps. Replace the worn bits, and the 'core' can be reused/rebuilt into an almost new part. Tires and batteries carry an environmental disposal fee.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

I'm not sure how true that is. Every time I've been charged a "core charge", it's on something that has expensive (and reusable) material in it that can generally be made into a re-manufactured/refurbished part. I do things my self, so my shop experience is very limited. But I can defiantly say every place I shop for parts the rule is this, if it's new there is no core deposit with the exception of tires and batteries. If it's rebuilt, there is a core charge.

Re:Always?

[InvalidError]

For example the metal in batteries and distributors is inherently valuable

It depends on the battery type. Lead-acid batteries contain kilograms of lead which is rather toxic and practically banned from use anywhere beyond automotive and industrial batteries... the only reasons lead batteries have not been banned yet under the RoHS/lead-free banner is the lack of economically competitive alternatives and the countless equipments in those two categories that depend on lead batteries and their very few technical advantages.

Lead is also rather worthless as far as metals in are concerned: nickel and silver are currently respectively ~10X and ~12X more valuable than lead... so the environmental charge/refund on lead-acid batteries is really not much more than that. The costs of de-constructing lead-acid batteries and refining their electrodes+electrolyte is probably close to on-par with the cost of "new lead" from refining by-products from refining other more valuable metals. Selling lead is one way ore processors can lighten their hazardous waste disposal burden.

While I understand and agree with the general intent behind what you said, I just wanted to make you aware that the "valuable metals" recycling argument does not apply to lead-acid batteries since recycled lead competes with "fresh" by-product lead.

Re:Always?

[pyite]

Wait... what? You replace your calipers when you change your pads? So you bleed your brakes every time you change your pads? That's crazy. Wow.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

As has been duly noted, a "core charge" has traditionally been a charge designed to incur the return of some significant "core" component of the part in question, one that could be refurbished and/or incorporated into the next iteration of the component in question.

Otherwise environmentally problematic components such as old batteries and tires that lack a clear financial or economically valuable "core" component worth returning, are as a consequence often wantonly discarded. Thus charging a deposit to either induce return or fund its environmental mitigation is reasonable. This is a new, though non-traditional ussage of the term "core" charge.

Once it just meant a charge intended to ensure the return of a given parts "core", now, by extension it may be applied to mean a surcharge on environmentally problematical parts that may not be inclined to be returned or recycled properly. Core return v. core disposal. It now depends upon the product in question.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Do you always get your part back at the mechanic? "

Do your car parts contain sensitive data?

Yeah, if I think there's a possibility of some scamming going on. Like if my drums or rotors are really not so worn that they had to be replaced with new ones, I might want to get a second opinion. Could they just pull a couple of really shot ones out of the debris pile to return to me, then turn and resell mine? Sure, and maybe I'd never know, unless they screwed up and gave me ones an inch too big for my car. Or unless I had unobtrusively marked the parts with a punch or soapstone before taking the car in.

As a possible case in point, I just had my brakes done. They said I needed new drums and rotors. I'd let things go way too far and could see the rotors were toast, but the drums appeared not to be scored. They said the drums had already been turned once and there was not enough metal to turn a second time.

Before leaving to await completion of the work, I told them I wanted the old drums and rotors. I made a point of saying that it was not because I didn't trust them, but because I had other uses for the parts. (I really did -- as I explained to them, I have plans for making a small blacksmithing forge out of a drum and wanted to use the rotors as buried anchors for guy lines for a vertical antenna).

Funny that, when I picked up the car and parts, the job had come down by $200 -- it turned out the drums had been mis-measured and they were able to turn them after all, instead of needing new ones.

I can't be sure, but it crossed my mind that they might have thought I was really going to take the drums elsewhere to be checked for usability. Or maybe not. I'll never know.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot to add in my state, or at least the stores I shop at, new tires and batteries cost more without the old ones, but this is for environmental reasons. But it's not called a core charge but rather an environmental fee or some such.

Same with engines. You buy a short block and you're expected to return the old one for rebuilding.

Re:Always?

[Gordonjcp]

I suspect you're paying over the odds for parts. The most expensive brake discs I've bought recently were a set for my Citroën CX (which are massive - you need a lot of brake to stop two tonnes of car from 130mph), at £22 each for front discs (13" vented discs about 1.5" thick) and £17 each for rear discs (11" vented discs about 3/4" thick). So, £78 all in for the discs, and about 15 quid an end for pads. Total parts cost including VAT is 254 of your American Dinar.

Why do people get brake discs and drums machined? It seems to be an American thing - I've never heard of it being done here, except in very unusual cases. Surely it would cost much more to have someone faff about with a lathe and then give you back slightly more worn-out discs than just to fit new ones?

Re:Always?

[BasilBrush]

That makes no sense at all. Replacing pads is far easier than replacing the whole caliper.

1) Undo one caliper bolt
2) Loosen the other caliper bolt.
3) Swivel caliper
4) With a pair of grips pull out the old pads.
5) Push the pistol back into it's housing with a good old fashined woodworking G-Clamp.
6) Insert pads
7) Put bolts back in.

OK, I listed more steps than you, but only because you missed things out like replacing brake fluid and bleeding the system, which is a two man, time consuming process. In reality you do far more work than I do.

Re:Always?

[msim]

ive never heard of trading in calipers like that either, alternators yes, engines, yes, gearboxes yes and even air conditioner compressors, but never calipers!!!!

Meanwhile, bleeding/renewing the brake fluid at LEAST at when you change the brakes is the minimum you should be doing. Hell knows what condition the fluid is in. Oh and something people dont thing of that often is bleeding/renewing the clutch fluid, that stuff is closer to the motor and can get pretty disgusting pretty quickly.

oh and merry fricking christmas!!!

Re:Always?

[msim]

to get even MORE off topic there are some one man bleed kits out there which consist of the hose (and a y adapter for those of you with dual piston brakes), it consists of a long hose going to a bottle with a spring & ball bearing in it, the fluid forces its way past the ball bearing/spring pressure, but the spring ensures no air is able to make its way back to the caliper. It meant i could bleed my rear drums (yeah my car has rear drums :-( ) in under 10 minutes per side (not including mucking about with jacking the car up, taking the wheel off, blah blah blah).

I got it for maintaining my bikes, but it has proven itself useful time & time again whenever i've needed to do any brakes/hydraulic clutch.

Re:Always?

[msim]

i have no idea where you get your brakes discs from, but i suspect that they are a helluva lot cheaper than they are here.

"skimming" the brakes is only really done to remove any irregularities in the disc itself, unless some gravel gets caught in there the only time you'd ever have to worry about such a thing is either a) by wearing them down smoothly enough that there's a lip or b) you let the pads get down to the metal.

if you want expensive brake discs, then you should try motorcycle brakes, now THOSE things are expensive at AT LEAST 5x the 22 quid per corner you have to fork out for your citroen, and thats just for a average performance bike with 5-7mm thin discs, perhaps with the floating mounting, but usually not including them.

man this has really gotten off topic.

Re:Always?

[dubl-u]

Do you always get your part back at the mechanic?

Under Michigan law, yes:

Requirement. Customers have the right to receive back all parts replaced, except those that must be returned to a supplier or manufacturer for warranty or rebuilding purposes, which the customer is entitled to inspect (MCL 257.1333).

This seems like one of those duh-so-obvious consumer protection laws, as well as good business practice for anybody trying to appear on the up and up. Doesn't every state do this?

Re:Always?

[lucifuge31337]

Mine are $359 each for the real ones. Yes, each. And there' is a noticeable difference with the after market stuff. And that's a German car so I doubt it's just an American thing. I can get them resurfaced for about $20 each - which is important when you have a new set on that you just glazed at the track (I know this doesn't alloy to everyone, but it's the most common reason I would need to do it)

On my Ford pickup, I just toss them in the scrap metal pile that goes to the recyclers on occasion. They are too cheap to bother with resurfacing.

Maybe if you drove more expensive/higher performance cars you'd be familiar with this. It's not really all that uncommon, even in Europe.

Re:Always?

[Gordonjcp]

Maybe if you drove more expensive/higher performance cars you'd be familiar with this.

I do, and I don't count a Porsche 924 as expensive or high performance ;-)

I regularly tow at the maximum outfit weight of 4.5 tonnes, I know how good my brakes are...

Re:Always?

[lucifuge31337]

I do, and I don't count a Porsche 924 as expensive or high performance

Nor do I. But a 951 is most definitely high performance, and fortunately not all that expensive overall.
But that's hardly my point. On many vehicles, it's simply too expensive to toss rotors that can be machined back within factory tolerances. Even rotors off of a 25 year old 924.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

ive never heard of trading in calipers like that either, alternators yes, engines, yes, gearboxes yes and even air conditioner compressors, but never calipers!!!! I had to phone around to find pre-loaded calipers. I'll agree they are more rare than any other automobile part, but in the past 15 years that's what I've bought.

Re:Always?

[Gordonjcp]

Hm, a 951 is still not that quick. Better than a 924, though.

I just plain wouldn't take the chance on skimmed brake discs, for much the same reason I wouldn't take a chance on remould tyres.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

That makes no sense at all. Replacing pads is far easier than replacing the whole caliper. ....

OK, I listed more steps than you, but only because you missed things out like replacing brake fluid and bleeding the system, which is a two man, time consuming process. In reality you do far more work than I do. That's true, I missed that step, however your list of steps is dependent on the type of caliper. Some cars you can swap pads without removing the caliper. Others the you can dismount the caliper from the bracket which holds the pads via two bolts. My prior car it was, near as I'm aware and according to my Hayes manual, not possible to pull the pads while one bolt was mounted on the car, and I failed at getting pads back on and had to resort to phoning the friendly neighborhood tree mechanic who would complain how tedious my calipers were. My current car, I didn't bother to look, I needed brakes, 4 bolts, one hose, machine shop, bleed, done. Gross motor skills only, no fine detail required.

My current car, what you propose might be possible, in fact I thought unbolting the caliper bracket. But spending an extra $25x2 to save my self a tedious dirty task is most excellent.

I accept criticism that I spend too much on brakes. I could save my self 50% by buying pads only. But of the things on my car I'm willing to invest extra money in, it's brakes. But I don't accept criticism regarding bleeding the brakes every time they are replaced, in fact I probably should flush the lines every 30k miles. Moisture in the lines reduces the boiling point of the fluid and can result in a serious condition.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

Replace the worn bits, and the 'core' can be reused/rebuilt into an almost new part.....Tires and batteries carry an environmental disposal fee. Tires and batteries I was confused on as one can take a tire and use it's 'core' to make retreads. I don't know what my shop does with used tires. Batteries it's the core that is toxic. Where I live there is defiantly a charge for not returning your old battery, and at least at Costco a charge for not returning a tire when replacing them.

I'm sure I pay a disposal fee, just i've never seen it itemized, where others I imagine pay a fine for not disposing at the place of purchase.

Re:Always?

[eli pabst]

After looking at several online parts suppliers, it does appear that only the re-manufactured parts have core charges while the "new" models do not. So I stand corrected.

Re:Always?

[Pherlin]

In Michigan, at least, even if the Repair shop doesn't return the part to the consumer, they are reqired to let the consumer at least inspect it.

Re:Always?

[Smallpond]

CORE is short for "Cash On REturn" (of the old part). You should not get charged it in a shop, where they have your old part already. Only when you buy a part and don't have the old part to exchange.

Re:Always?

[zakezuke]

After looking at several online parts suppliers, it does appear that only the re-manufactured parts have core charges while the "new" models do not. So I stand corrected. My local parts shop had to explain it to me. If a company is in the business of manufacturing new parts, they don't want the old core back as they don't rebuild them. But if their business is rebuilding parts they need the old cores.

I'm willing to be corrected on shops, rather than parts suppliers. It may be possible that shops ask for the core even if they are replacing a new part. They might have a deal with parts builders, they might be getting extra income that way. To me, I think that's dandy. Reduce, reuse, recycle. But just so long as it's clear they are recycling your old parts rather than sending the old one back to the manufacturer.

Re:Always?

[mabhatter654]

the key to the comparison is that it's still your CHOICE to return the part or not.. and lose the core deposit refund.

In this case Apple is simply charging for the full cost of out-of-warranty replacement part.. there is no "core charge" here. While it's good to recycle, Apple isn't really using that excuse. They're more than likely returning the part for warranty. After all, to offer Applecare warranty they probably demand a 3-5 year warranty even though they only pass on one to the end users... This is probably simple double-dipping, charging YOU for the full cost, and then getting warranty claim as well. Nothing to see here... move on.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

Running an average consumer-type magnet over a hard drive doesn't do a thing. I tried it once. There are powerful ones that are intended for erasing (usually in a powered device I believe). Unless he was using that, he just wanted to immpress you as a "genius" a/o shut you up.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

except those that must be returned to a supplier or manufacturer for warranty or rebuilding purposes I suspect that any part replaced under warranty is returned to the OEM for warranty purposes. That does leave the question of why do they have the same policy for out-of-warranty parts. Even though the parts costs are high, there are restocking procedures and inventory control that would drive the prices higher if the parts were released. I know this does not make sense if you think of it as a DIY retail business, but as a service business, there are bureaucratic issues of which you may not be aware. The whole Apple retail chain is only about 6 1/2 years old and changing constantly. In typical bureaucratic fashion, the people making policy decisions are far removed from the folks on the front lines.

Something I don't understand is the number of people who insist on taking their frustration out on the guy behind the bar. These are still basically retail employees. Does anyone really believe they have any power over setting policy? They are charged with following policy and not really equipped to defend it. If someone has a problem with policy, they should take it up with corporate and get out of the way so I can get my iPod replaced.

Just as a general observation of people going in to any service environment, watching someone whine for 10 minutes about how long they waited for service might be funny if it wasn't adding 10 minutes to the time everyone behind them has to wait.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

"But I can defiantly say"

Wow, why so defiant? Nobody is putting you on the spot here. Unless you had a mini-seizure trying to type "definitely"? I know, it's one of the hardest words in the English language.

Re:Always?

[plague3106]

If I paid for a brand new replacement part, I can certainly ask for the broken part back. It is mine after all.

Re:Always?

[Anonymous Coward]

AFAIK, if the auto part is too large, or if it needs to be returned for core parts value, you still have the right to inspect the part. Likewise, if Apple claims core part value, you should have the right to inspect the part. Upon inspection, if the core part contains more than the core (in this case data), you should have the right to demand that portion back.

Re:Always?

[couchslug]

I've traded in truck and car calipers, but it is becoming less common nowadays. If your casting is less common a core will more likely be required.

Re:Always?

[QuasiEvil]

Likewise, never heard of trading out calipers. Usually I just give them a visual once-over for any problem seals or corrosion, slap on some new pads, and bolt everything back together. I have taken to just putting on new rotors, though - turns out new cheap rotors ($7) are less expensive than machining the old ones (local shop wants $10/each). I usually change out the fluid about once a year, but I drive a lot and most of it is in the mountains, and the DOT3 that pours out is usually pretty disgusting.

But hey, whatever works for you on those preloaded calipers. Bleeding an ABS system can be a bitch, though, so personally I try not to do it any more than I have to.

it's a parsing issue

[User 956]

Dave Winer learned to his dismay that Apple had no intention of giving him back the disk he paid them to replace.

Does not compute. He paid them to replace it, not to replace it AND give back the old one.

/sarcasm

Re:it's a parsing issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Does compute. He paid them for a new part. How does that translate to surrendering ownership of the original part? If he had purchased the new hard drive by itself they probably would have never asked for his old drive in return.

Re:it's a parsing issue

[Anonymous Coward]

I see the concept of sarcasm is lost on you. Congratulations.

Re:it's a parsing issue

[runningduck]

I had a similar experience but thought to ask about the processes in detail up front. I was on a three week business trip when my hard drive started clunking. Apple would not give me the option of sending my disk to a recovery service or allowing me to buy the replacement--they have strict rules about the warranty processes and doing anything outside of their process voids the warranty for the entire notebook. Being the value of my few weeks worth of work was worth far more than this silly little MacBookPro so I stopped by BestBuy and replaced my clunking 120gig with a 250gig disk sent the old disk off for recovery and got back to work.

The really odd thing is that we are evaluating desktop video conferencing solutions at work and had discussed making a shift to Apples due to the great video integration. When I shared my story Apple's name was immediately removed from the list for being too business hostile.

netapp and ibm give you an option to keep failed..

[Anonymous Coward]

disks if they contain sensitive or secret data

but its weak you have to pay extra for it?!??? wtf

Curious

[Sorthum]

I was just thinking about this today. I'd expect that this would be the case for a warranty drive repair, but when the customer bought a new drive? The old part should definitely remain the property of the customer...

Re:Curious

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, it is the property of the customer, but you signed a contract!

Same thing happens at concerts where they take all your cool knives before you enter, yet never return them :(

Re:Curious

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't know how to hide a knife properly! (next time, try hiding it in the guard's eye socket. Always works for me)

Re:Curious

[Anonymous Coward]

At least I still have my self-respect

Re:Curious

[jimicus]

There's no such thing as warranty drive repair - either if the drive alone is sent back under warranty (eg. if you bought the hard disk on its own) or as part of something else (eg. a laptop).

The unit is replaced (sometimes with a new drive, sometimes with a reconditioned one), and the manufacturer keeps your old disk.

Guess where the reconditioned drives come from.

Re:Curious

[pipatron]

So what was the $160 for?

Re:Curious

[AmberBlackCat]

Keeping the old drive opens up the possibility to claim the drive was the problem when it was really a loose connection, or to claim the drive cannot be repaired while it actually can. In either case, the repair shop could charge the price of installing a new drive while keeping the money and returning the iPod with the old drive working.

Re:Curious

[LocalH]

So, if I buy a new drive from you and have you replace my old one with the new one, you're suddenly entitled to the old one for some reason? Remember, Dave *did* pay, $160 for 80GB. At that rate thy should give him the old drive back on a silver platter.

Re:Curious

[whit3]

>So what was the $160 for?

Yes, that's the key to the whole transaction! The Apple store
offered out-of-warranty service on the same terms as warranty
service, but at the customer's expense. This means they use
Apple repair parts (possibly rebuilt, not new), under Apple
repair warranty (not too good, 90 days parts and labor),
and send the 'faulty' part to Apple for possible rebuild (or
more likely, pass-off to the disk manufacturer for factory rebuild).

Because the part is swapped, this also means that the option to
upgrade to a larger disk is ruled out. Apple repair warranty
only applies to disk-original-size-shipped-with-unit, after all.

So, getting memory or hard disk replaced on an Apple computer
by the Apple store will result in ripoff part price (because the
part prices were set when the computer was manufactured and not
readjusted later), small capacity (because that's the exact-replacement
for what was available when the comptuer was manufactured) and
inflexibility about exchange (because warranty repair agents have
to show the dead part or they won't get paid/credited for doing
the repair).

I worked for an Apple dealer, and we had flexibility to use
normal retail-channel parts for repairs. So memory replacements
had lifetime warranty, hard drive replacements could be any
size you wanted to buy, you can keep the old drive, etc.
The Apple store doesn't deserve any particular respect for
how they treat this kind of 'repair', because they aren't really
trying to do a good job for the customer. They're just grudgingly
redoing service-as-usual-under-warranty because it makes money.

There are car companies that offer long (even ten year) mechanical
warranties on their cars. To me, that means that my car, at age 11,
becomes unserviceable except by the dealer. Who else ever
worked on that model in the preceeding decade? Who except the
dealer ever had parts stocked for it? It sounds like a sweet warranty,
but it's ALSO a major anticompetitive action by the manufacturer.

Re:Curious

[trolltalk.com]

"See... that's the difference between people who understand the "warranty repair" concept, and those who don't."

It wasn't a warraty repair. that's why he had to pay $160.00 for a new drive. And THAT is the difference between people who understand the concept of RTFA and those who don't.

Apple was 100% in the wrong. He should sue.

Re:Curious

[TypeMRT]

He should just sue Apple for not returning his property and exposing him to identity theft. The judge will make the decision and all of this silly commenting on Slashdot will become a gigantic moot point. Right...?

Option on returned parts?

[taustin]

In most states, the consumer does not have the option to have the old parts returned, they have the right to have the old parts returned. Where laws are properly enforced, it's a rather big deal if the mechanics doesn't do so.

And yes, the laws regarding computer repair should be the same.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[Planesdragon]

Most auto parts stores will quote you a price that includes the buy-back of the replaced part. You pay, say, $20 for a new part, and a $80 "core deposit."

When it comes to shmucks like me who have no place to maintain their cars, well, the local garages charge an arm and a leg because they can, and we're more worried about "how much will it cost" than "can I get my beatup fender back."

Re:Option on returned parts?

[iocat]

I've only been a resident of three states (Michigan, Massachusetts, and California), but in all of them, you will get back any parts they replace unless you specifically tell them you don't want them. Even tires! (And if you don't want the tire back, they charge you extra, since they have to pay the disposal fee). It's basically a law that theoretically keeps them honest, because you could call them out if they replaced a working part.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[zakezuke]

Even tires! (And if you don't want the tire back, they charge you extra, since they have to pay the disposal fee) Where I live it costs extra to keep the old tires, at least at the shops I've received quotes from. It's rather nutty when your car only comes with a donut sized spare and you buy a used rim and want a tire, but in those cases I've asked friends for surplus tires like from an old tire swing or some such. In most cases it's not an issue.

Some applies to batteries. It costs me more to get a new battery without an old one, but again people are happy to give up their old batteries, esp those who buy used batteries.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[zippthorne]

Not only that, but you also have the right to inspect the part, even if they're sending it to be re manufactured to save you a bit of money. Now, whether or not you have the ability to usefully determine anything with your inspection, they must let you see any parts removed.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[thegrassyknowl]

I'm guessing this is to help with fraud in the motor vehicle repair industry. There's a lot of lay people out there who wouldn't know what a carb-e-magig is let-alone why it needed to be replaced.

The exact same applies to computers except nobody wants to give the parts back. There's a lot of lay-people out there who really only know how to drive them badly and wouldn't know why they needed a new motherboard to fix "dll is missing" error.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's basically a law that theoretically keeps them honest, because you could call them out if they replaced a working part.

Of course "theoretically" is the working concept here, since most customers leave their replaced parts behind for use with the next customer. :) I suppose if you know what the part will be and it is accessible, a secret mark could be put on it - but even then, if you call them on it, "Oh we must have mixed it up with another customer's...". Well, at least you'll know not to go back to them.

Re:Option on returned parts?

[volpe]

Just out of curiosity, what's the operational distinction between having the option to have it returned, and having the right to have it returned? In each case, I get to choose whether I want it, right?

Re:Option on returned parts?

[falconwolf]

Just out of curiosity, what's the operational distinction between having the option to have it returned, and having the right to have it returned? In each case, I get to choose whether I want it, right?

This is my opinion so it may be wrong but to me the right to have a part returned would mean you don't have to pay for it but with an option you have to pay. In this case though, the person bought his own replacement drive therefore he should get the old one back without paying for it.

Falcon

Re:Option on returned parts?

[lsatenstein]

Here in Quebec Canada, the repairman, by law must return all replaced parts. It came into effect when garages were changing parts on the whim, or were not changing the parts and charging for replacements. What was imposed on garages was imposed on all repair shops operating in the province. The consumer has the right to not pay if the old part is not returned.

If the repairman knows that to remove the old part he must damage it, the customer is supposed to be advised before the repair is initiated.

Tin Foil Hat

[davidc]

...Hand me mine, please.

Re:Tin Foil Hat

[cheese-cube]

That's a good idea however a better one would be to wrap the drive in tin foil before you send it back. It seems that there is not much you can do to stop Apple from stealing your data however the tin foil coating will at least prevent the Russian spy satellites from stealing the data while the drive is in transport.

Dell Already dose this.

[Forge]

Right there on the "customize your system" page for many (if not all) Dell Machines is the option to keep your defective disks after they have been replaced.

It costs a little extra and coming from the field support arena I know why.

Whenever you replace a part under warranty they take the old one. Not because they have use for it but to make sure you don't. Imagine an unscrupulous person who would call in "My drive is broken" then when the tech replaces the drive, he just turns around and sells the old one (which was fine anyway).

The same logically applies to other components and Dell only makes this special exemption for Hard drives because that's where the data is stored.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Breakfast Pants]

But the guy in the story was paying, *out of warrantee*. Or did I read it wrong?

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Forge]

Sorry. Just checked.

This only applies to Servers. Desktop and Laptop users are screwed. Looks like your best bet is to degauze the old drive with a big magnet before the technician arrives if you are paranoid.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Hacksaw]

I can imagine the "unscrupulous person" scenario. However, my company use Dells, and has a support contract, and they have never replaced anything that they didn't essentially make our tech prove was broken first.

It's more likely that Dell is taking the drive so that they can get some money back from the manufacturer when the drive is under warranty. They are, after all, a business and if it wasn't their fault the drive failed early, they shouldn't have to suck up the cost.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[John Courtland]

I believe the real motivator is that the damaged drive is a usable core for a remanufacture. When you buy a new/reman auto part, you get a discount if you return your defective core. Note that I said "if". It is by no means mandatory to return a core.

This system Apple has is backwards. The core should be returned to the customer by default, and the customer should be able to opt-in for a discount. It should be plainly written on the repair contract.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Tmack]

... Whenever you replace a part under warranty they take the old one. Not because they have use for it but to make sure you don't. Imagine an unscrupulous person who would call in "My drive is broken" then when the tech replaces the drive, he just turns around and sells the old one (which was fine anyway).
...
Right, but if he payed for the new drive, then it was not a warranty replacement, it was a new purchase + install, so the old *dead* part should still be his. Basically, apple is doing what you described, but they are the unscrupulous person in this case, taking your money and the drive, then either getting the warranty $$ from the manufacturer (or more likely credit for another drive), or are simply wiping it and re-using it in the next victim's computer.

I know when I worked in a computer shop, we left the dead parts on top of the computer to give to the user when they came back. Most would just tell us to toss the parts, so we had a big bin full of "dead" stuff, most of which truly was dead. We never kept things unless it actually WAS an issue covered by warranty, and then the customer got the savings passed to them. If this is truly happening, Apple has a nice scam going on.

tm

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Nimey]

Uh, no. I can buy Latitudes and Optiplexen with my uni's account & they give us the option to keep the bad hard drive. The price is generally something like $18 for three years, and you can pay a few dollars more for four and five years. We usually get 3-year warranties plus keeping the bad drive for that period.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Forge]

Ohh...

Where I come from (Jamaica) that's simple theft. If I bought a new part and payed you to replace it the old part is still mine.

I may choose to have you dispose of it or to sell it to you as reusable scrap. The choice is mine however. And again the reason is simple and has nothing to do with personal data.

If you have a loose IDE cable and I tell you "The drive is dead" then sell you a replacement and keep the old drive, I can then sell that old drive. My profit would be 100% of the sale price.

Screwing over the customer so you can sell his stuff? Most jurisdictions discourage that :)

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[jo42]

Before I sent in my Dell laptop that went tango uniform, I replaced the HD in the unit with another one (of the same size) that was wiped clean. Dell service, being so good, found this 160GB drive to be 'defective' and replaced it with a 120GB unit and restored the OS. When I got the laptop back, they included the 'defective' 160GB drive in the box. When I figured out that they had fubared, it took several phone calls and a remote session to convince them that they had installed a smaller drive. They then sent me out a 160GB replacement. Still having to return the 'defective' drive, or else get billed for a new one, I sent back the new 120GB and 160GB drives. Today the 'defective' drive continues to work just fine running The Pile of Poop Known as Vista.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[diskis]

No. That's not it. You have to do troubleshooting first. Do you know which error code your computer gives for a broken HDD, the code you have to give to the tech to get a new drive? You know that the HDD replacement is logged, and too many replacements call for suspicion?

The real reason is taxes. A returned part is classified as a sparepart, and therefore taxed less. That is true for all computer manufacturers.
The keep your drive- thingy is to cover the sales takes for when they have to sell you a new part.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[speedingant]

Apple has two routes to go down if you want an out of warranty part replaced. There is exchange, and there is replace. If you choose exchange then Apple takes back the original part for refurbishing, and it costs less to replace the part. If you choose replace then the part costs more, but you get the old part back. This procedure is completely standard for many companies.

The guy's an idiot for replacing the drive through Apple anyway. It's far cheaper to get a Seagate/Toshiba and get the tech to install it. Again, more sensationalist rubbish about Apple. He should have read the EULA.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[geekboybt]

I am not 100% positive that this is the case, but it's definitely possible that Apple (or Dell, HP, etc) gets a deal on the drives for purchasing them from Seagate/Maxtor/etc without a warranty from the manufacturer. Therefore, it's Apple/Dell/HP that's providing the warranty on the drive as part of the system as a whole, not a component.

Don't believe me? Try replacing your OEM drive through a drive manufacturer's RMA process. It'll get denied.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[thomas.galvin]

Ohh...

Where I come from (Jamaica) that's simple theft...

Screwing over the customer so you can sell his stuff? Most jurisdictions discourage that :) Welcome to America.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm...and you forgot the opposite scenario? (intentionally perhaps?)

If I don't get back the 'defective' drive, how do I know that it actually needed to be replaced?

This is much like the old mechanics tricks of saying, 'yep, you need the entire drive train replaced', when actually all that is needed is a bolt replaced, or something very small, etc.

So, yes, you should definitely get the 'defective' drive back, with an explanation as to why it is defective, etc.
Otherwise, you just have to take 'Apple's', Dell's, Microsoft's, word that it is 'defective'.

And personally, I have found on numerous occasions that people have been told their computers were 'defective', requiring expensive replacement parts, etc., when all that was really wrong was a virus infection, etc.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Cally]

The insidious principle which is being violated here is the notion that you don't actually own your hardware, you're renting it from Apple. They can take it back and give you an equal replacement at their discretion. Kind of like Microsoft et al not selling you Windows, just licensing it... or Sony, et al, with music...

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Far more likely that the defective drive is thrown in a pile and eventually recycled with other parts. Which they would still make *some* money off of. Yes, the parts should be returned, assuming the customer is willing to pay for the additional shipping.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Forge]

1. Usually the diagnosis is done over the phone where someone with a good memory of an actual failure will know how to convince phone support that he has the same symptoms again. I.e. "My hard drive is making a funny clicking sound. The BIOS doesn't even detect that the drive is in the machine."

2. Often the field techs are the least competent engineers available. I once had a guy on my teem replace several major components (Motherboard, Power board, 1 of 2 PSUs, 2 of 6 DIMMs) on THE WRONG SERVER. Understand what this means. He was repairing a machine that was not failed while the failed machine was sitting right next to it, And we used to screen and train our guys.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[trenien]

Yeah, but this is the US of A, where corporation are only there serve their customers to the best of their abilities, and it's Apple whose stated holy goal is to set planet Earth to a higher level of evolution.

What? Oh,right...

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[james968]

My thinking is it was this guy has a laptop and he sent it to Apple as out of warranty, for repair.

The OP might have avoided the problem, spent less money, and gotten a faster return, if he just took the laptop and purchased a HD upgrade. Of course if the problem was with the logic board, it wouldn't have solved it.

Re:Dell Already dose this.

[Bobartig]

The guy was paying for a service, which was to diagnose the problem and return the computer to a functioning state. The cost of service was includes of parts used, which are swapped for bad parts. There was no point in which he purchased a hard drive.

In fact, since I happen to know Apple's repair pricing, I can even tell you that they comped him the installation cost (since the install is trivial, but try getting that service from any other service provider).

So basically, the SERVICE was performed as specified, but the guy felt entitled to something that did not fall within the description of what he paid for. Then he whinged about it on his blog.

File reports.

[NNKK]

* File a police report detailing how your drive was stolen from you.

* Complain to your state attorney general.

* Complain to the BBB.

* Make sure the Apple Store manager and Apple HQ gets copies of all of the above.

I'll bet you have your drive back in a few days.

Re:File reports.

[pthor1231]

It's not exactly stolen if you signed it away. It may be a shitty / un-enforceable clause, but you should treat it as such.

ironic: captcha = external

Re:File reports.

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

You forgot

*Complain on SlashDot

I'll bet you have a un-deserved sense of accomplishment back in a few days.


(not trolling, just wondering what this guy is *actually* doing to get back his property - or if he just cares about his righteous sense of outrage)

Re:File reports.

[mike2R]

* File a police report detailing how your drive was stolen from you.
- Not stolen, so can't do that.

* Complain to your state attorney general.
- Dunno the US well enough to know who this is.

* Complain to the BBB.
- Possibly worth it, since it should really have been made clear to him beforehand that he wasn't getting his old drive back.

* Make sure the Apple Store manager and Apple HQ gets copies of all of the above.
- Listen to the sound of yourself being ignored.

The best he can hope for is some kind of financial compensation for not having the service explained to him properly. Let's face it that won't be much even if he can be bothered to got through the BS he'll need to before getting to this point; what's the value of a used 80GB drive? Apple will take responsibility for his data when Satan skates to work.

He'll never get his drive back - even if they wanted to they're not going to be able to be certain who's drive is who's and the potential liability of giving him the wrong drive makes it a non-starter.

Moral of the story is don't use Apple for out of warranty repairs. They price themselves out of the market, and as this demonstrates their Ts&Cs are pretty shitty.

Re:File reports.

[Anonymous Coward]

if he just cares about his righteous sense of outrage

But now we all know what shitty contracts Apple has, and not to use their techs to service any of our machines with important data on it, lest they take the drives.

Re:File reports.

[Windom Earle]

He'll never get his drive back - even if they wanted to they're not going to be able to be certain who's drive is who's and the potential liability of giving him the wrong drive makes it a non-starter.

Clearly, then, they need to have an auditable video recording to give the customer showing the old drive being removed from his machine and shredded. A timestamped video burned to DVD would probably be adequate.

They can't have it both ways and claim the drive is 'too secret' to potentially give him another customer's drive, and yet not have a chain of evidence proving his drive wasn't shredded.

Re:File reports.

[mike2R]

I can see your point, but they've not been paid/contracted to wipe the data, so they're not really responsible for that. But handing over the wrong disk is a bit more of a bad move (they're very unlikely to have tracked it, so how are they meant to work out which disk is his anyway).

I'm not saying this is good service, and certainly not value for money. But if you are offering a basic drive installation service (which is all Apple do regardless of the price) that really is all you're offering. The problem was not explaining to the customer what the service entailed - it's quite reasonable to expect to get your drive back after all - not the actual service they are offering.

Dell already does this

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called Keep your Hard Drive

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/services/client_support/keep_harddrive?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

Pretty much all companies should do this, I know mine does, keep your information out of the wrong hands. Maybe Apple does something similar?
For Dell if I remember correctly, it costs an extra $5-10 per machine to subscribe to this program -- and you can specify you want to subscribe to it when you order the machine.

Re:Dell already does this

[Anonymous Coward]

You can even purchase the Keep your Hard Drive service once you realize your drive needs to be replaced so that you don't have to send it back to Dell.

Re:Dell already does this

[thogard]

Too bad the hard drives in apples are not easy to get at. It takes me about 1/2 hour to swap a disk in a laptop I know and its taken about 2 hours for one I couldn't find good take apart instructions.

Agreement

[The Step Child]

According to the excerpt, Apple owns the drive, not the data on it. IANAL, but they don't have any legal right to distribute your data that's contained on the drive. If they accidentally give someone the drive with the data still on it, then it seems like that could equal a big lawsuit. That's why they'll most likely wipe the drive. If you're that concerned with a middle man digging through your drive, then you probably should have been more careful with 1) signing forms without reading them, and 2) using PCs or notebooks where you'll invalidate any warranties by breaking the case seal.

Re:Agreement

[Cally]

(I'm not an Apple customer but) I'm sure Apple do sensible things to make sure a disk never goes back out without being scrubbed; it's the principle. (a) they could make a mistake. (b) an attacker with physical access to old disks at some point in the process finds a way to copy the data off. (c) all the other attacks I haven't thought of.

Re:Agreement

[big_paul76]

then you probably should have been more careful with 1) signing forms without reading them, and

I'm so sick and tired of people playing this 'blame the victim' game. As if it's fair for companies to ask you to sign ten pages of six-point text and buried in the midst of it is clauses giving them permission to rape your dog and sell your firstborn into slavery. I don't know about your jurisdiction, or how it works in the jurisdiction of the guy with the drive, but in Canada, the courts have figured out that nobody reads these agreements, and they've found that you can only fall back on the "it's in your contract" bullshit if it's reasonable to assume that a person would've agreed to the actual terms, had they read them. So it doesn't matter what's in the contract. You don't have to read them. The contract needs to be basically 'fair' in the eyes of the court to be enforceable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilden_Rent-A-Car_Co._v._Clendenning

Re:Agreement

[Klaus_1250]

2) using PCs or notebooks where you'll invalidate any warranties by breaking the case seal.

Not sure how it is in the US, but in the Netherlands, such practices are not allowed by law. Opening up a PC to replace parts or add extra memory is a normal and expectable practice during the lifetime of a PC. Hence, manufacturers are not allowed to place warranty voiding seals which prevent you from opening the case to replace or add parts.

Sames basically goes for laptops. Replacing the drive or adding memory is normal practice and cannot void your warranty.

Well, another victim of "lese majeste".

[Anonymous Coward]

N/T.

Yes

[lostngone]

I had almost the exact thing happen to a friend I was helping. His system was under warranty when the drive failed but he needed to recover some data on the drive that failed wasn't backed up. Apple would not give the back failed drive. So he ended up having to buy another just so he could send the broken one to Drivesavers. I still don't know what that did to his AppleCare extended warranty, I'm sure it voided it.

Encrypt

[Anonymous Coward]

Or STFU

Call it tough love

(still, if you paid for a new one, they should give you the dead one)

Absolutely.

[bigstrat2003]

If there's sensitive information on the drive, you have every right to want it back (especially if it wasn't warranty work). Apple deserves the highest possible mark of shame for this disregard for the security of their customers' information, it's absolutely not permissible.

Re:Absolutely.

[RealGrouchy]

If there's sensitive information on the drive, you have every right to want it back If there's sensitive information on the drive, and it's not securely encrypted, then it is vulnerable as soon as you send it in--whether or not you plan on getting it back.

- RG>

Re:Absolutely.

[bigstrat2003]

Very true, but that doesn't, in my opinion, negate the consumer's right to have their drive back if they so choose.

Re:Absolutely.

[mike2R]

Very true, but that doesn't, in my opinion, negate the consumer's right to have their drive back if they so choose.

While I think Apple needed to make it plain to the customer he wouldn't get his old drive back, I don't think you can say that Apple should be obliged to offer a drive replacement with old drive back service. They're a private company after all.

Re:Absolutely.

[commodoresloat]

Very true, but that doesn't, in my opinion, negate the consumer's right to have their drive back if they so choose. It does negate data security as a valid argument in favor of this "right."

Re:Absolutely.

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true, but that doesn't, in my opinion, negate the consumer's right to have their drive back if they so choose.

Well then why didn't you just say that instead of inventing reasons and tossing in the hyperbole of "highest possible mark of shame" ?
If you're giving out your highest mark of shame for not returning a defective disk that doesn't leave much room for things like baby-eating.

Re:Absolutely.

[falconwolf]

If there's sensitive information on the drive, you have every right to want it back

If there's sensitive information on the drive, and it's not securely encrypted, then it is vulnerable as soon as you send it in--whether or not you plan on getting it back.

Ah but he didn't send it in. He went to what Apple calls the Genius Bar in an Apple store. If I have a problem with my MacBook Pro I can go down to an Apple store and have a genius look at it, which is what TFA writer did. You can sit there while the work is being done, actually it's a good idea you stay. That way they can ask you questions, or you can ask them some yourself. Many tymes they are able makes repairs right there, only occasionally will they have to send whatever is being worked on into a repair center.

Falcon

...and cell phones?

[AySz88]

I recently encountered a similar situation - my mother had dropped her cell phone into the pool, and it wouldn't recognize any SIM cards anymore. She had "insurance" that sent her a replacement refurbished phone in exchange for sending the old phone back (but the premiums plus "deductible" would have been enough to cover the cost of the refurbished phone, and far too expensive to trade in the almost-working phone, so it was a terrible deal).

Unfortunately, she apparently had credit card info inside the phone somewhere (no, I don't know what she was thinking). I wasn't really comfortable with sending the phone like that through the mail, so we tried to get AT&T/Cingular to give up a way to unlock the phone to delete the card info or give us a way to perform a master reset (assuming that the functionality exists), but they refused. We sent it anyway, but I wish we could have at least reset the phone, if not kept it in its broken state (or maybe shown it to our local store that it was indeed broken or something...).

Re:...and cell phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ever need to wipe anyting like that, and you are going to send it back anyway because it is fragged...

Just EM it. Get youself a nice electro-magnet and fry it.

OR, The Cheap method: put it in your microwave for a few seconds!

That outa take care of it!

Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[phantomcircuit]

Why did he send them sensitive data?!

WHY?

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[Rosyna]

If Best Buy copies the porn off of HDs of PCs that go in for repair, just imagine what Apple does with your sensitive data.

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[harlows_monkeys]

Why did he send them sensitive data?!

Maybe his disk drive was broken, so he could not take the sensitive data off it?

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[Anonymous Coward]

As a new iMac owner it crossed my mind after the fact... What if my Mac breaks? Or it doesn't boot for some mysterious reason which makes me feel like I need to send it in for repair... What about the drive and my data? Regardless of the contents, it is sensitive to me. I don't want anyone going through my shit. So then what? I heard if I break the seal (like to replace the HD), it will void the warranty... So what good is the warranty then? Will they refuse to service it if you send it to them without a HD? or put a new one in and charge you a sick amount extra for that? or a sick amount of extra labor cause you sent it back without the internal drive? Void your expensive extended AppleCare contract cause you pulled the drive?

I keep finding little things that nag me that seem minor to most people but sometimes really piss me off about Apple. I'm starting to think that maybe I should sell this machine before I ever have to deal with those questions personally. I mean if I knew the HD failed, I could just replace it myself I think it's not hard and there are HOWTOs out on the net. But if something else goes, then what?

Or try to encrypt everything and take the performance hit? Blah... I just installed Leopard today. It's really nice in some ways. It makes me want to love Apple and OSX. But there's always something else to make my blood boil about it. I just haven't wanted to take the financial loss on the depreciation to try and sell the damn thing. I made the switch. I'm a switcher. And I regret it. Nice as some things are. I wouldn't do it, or recommend it, unless you have to have the style/fashion, or have to have some OSX specific application and it's mission critical to you. I probably won't ever buy another Mac again. Even so, there are a lot of neat little things about it...

And I think this question extends beyond just Apple. Aren't there PC makers and maybe laptop makers trying to squeeze tech into smaller spaces and getting more interesting proprietary solutions that make disassembly/re-assembly a nightmare? or is that just Apple (like trying to replace a HD inside a MacBook Pro)? I'm starting to feel nostalgic about my old big clunky PC box right about now...

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[LurkerXXX]

Or try to encrypt everything and take the performance hit? Blah.

Your computer could be stolen out of your home on any random day.

Take the performance hit. Encrypt anything you don't want thieves or the world to see.

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Take the performance hit. Encrypt anything you don't want thieves or the world to see.

I have to agree with you. That makes the most sense. But in real life I tend to find encryption causing a lot of extra pain, enough so I start to choose the risk over the protection it would provide.

But it's rough now, if you sent cheesy love letters to some girl you like, or IM chat, and tons of stuff traveling around and stored unencrypted through various web services, and even innocent sounding stuff, could theoretically come back and bite you in the ass if the wrong someone saw it. To try and extend the hypothetical story, maybe a jealous boyfriend reads the messages stored on gmail/yahoo/outlook/mail.app/etc and hunts you down and kills you, or breaks your legs, etc.

One possible solution would be to dedicate some silicon to encrypt/decrypt your data on the fly, but doesn't that almost sound like an advertisement for Vista? Hahah DRM everything, and don't you dare forget your password or your whole digital life is gone in an instant.

Right now I try to keep my passwords and accounts hidden, but most everything else is normal un-encrypted. Now imagine trying to run a virtual machine from an encrypted disk, I've heard it is horrendously slow. Now maybe your virtual Fedora, Kubuntu, SuSE, and CentOS aren't really that sensitive, but I'd still not want someone else to mess with it while it was in the shop...

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[ToBeContinued]

Someone posted a comment on slashdot a while ago on how they would prepare for such a situation like this by doing something along the lines of buying a new hard drive whenever they buy a new system and then cloning the hard drive that was included with the new system onto the new hard drive they bought and then using that separate drive as their primary drive in their new system. If their system ever needs to be sent for repair for any reason, they could just swap back in the original hard drive that it came with and the repair shop would not have any of their personal information, not even in the free space of the drive all without the overhead of using encryption. Although, it still might not be helpful if it is your new, separately purchased drive that needs to be replaced.

Re:Sent them Sensitive Data?!

[falconwolf]

Why did he send them sensitive data?!

He didn't send them anything.

Falcon

It's an option

[Maeric]

I work as a Tier 1 agent for AppleCare and I can assure you that getting your hard drive back for a mail-in repair is an option; however, most Tier 1 agents do not know how to put this request in so it's not often done correctly. It's definitely not a standard, and if a hard drive is replaced through a mail-in repair the minimum price would be a flat-rate repair which is at least $249 but oftentimes it is more than that.

Re:It's an option

[Maeric]

Something I should add is that this option is for out of warranty work. Something we call either a flat rate repair or tier level repair work.

Re:It's an option

[toddestan]

What kind of flat rate is that?

It's like the Mighty Mouse. Atleast one button, but oftentimes it is more than that.

Re:It's an option

[ColdWetDog]

... the minimum price would be a flat-rate repair which is at least $249 but oftentimes it is more than that.

What kind of flat rate is that?

A Reality Field Distorted flat rate (kind of all curvy, that sort of thing).

Re:It's an option

[LoverOfJoy]

That was my initial reaction, too, but I'm guessing that there is a separate flat rate price depending on the product. So for a desktop there might be one flat rate to fix whatever problem, large or small. There might be a separate flat rate to fix any problem a laptop might have, yet another flat rate for an ipod fix, etc. If that is the case, it makes sense to call it a flat rate even if it varies by product. If I call in for a repair on my ipod and they say the price will depend on what the problem is...unless I choose the flat rate option, in which case there is one price and they will do whatever it takes to repair it, including replacing it entirely if necessary. Would it make sense to not call it a flat rate simply because they charge differently if I were to send in an emac?

Re:It's an option

[mr_matticus]

A fairly typical one?

Flat rate repair does not mean universally unitary rate repair. It just means that for the kinds of repairs that are covered, the same price is charged. It can be separated by nature of problem, product family, or level of service based.

For example, you could have desktops at $249, notebooks at $299. Or iMacs/Macbooks at $249, Pro products at a different price. Or replacement of non-display hardware components at one price, LCD replacement at another, and complete system replacement at another. I have no idea how they do it, but it could be any of these.

It's like a prix fixe meal--you might have one set of options at $45 and another at $60. It's still prix fixe, even if it's not the same fixed price for any possible choice. It only means you know ahead of time what you're going to be paying and there's no further hemming and hawing.

If, for example, it goes in because it shuts down randomly and it seems to be a bad thermal sensor but turns out to be the power supply, you've already paid. Whatever surprises happen in the tech's hands are irrelevant. There are no additional labor, diagnostic, or repair charges. You've paid the flat rate for that particular repair.

Re:It's an option

[RedBear]

I see this kind of stuff posted a lot in discussions about dealing with Apple for service. I'm sure it's the same with other manufacturers also. You have to know the right things to say to the support people in order to actually get problems solved. Is there some reference material online that succinctly explains how to talk to AppleCare personnel to make these kind of requests in a way that will be listened to, and how all the different levels of support apply to different sizes of businesses. Because I do support for Macs and I am totally in the dark on how to avoid getting the short end of the stick talking to the lower end people (which has unfortunately happened in my past experiences).

I'm sure there is a library of non-succinct information on the site, but if there is some area that just boils it all down to the essentials for those of us who are out of the loop, that would be awesome.

Re:It's an option

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the apple flat rate: iRate.

Re:It's an option

[Anonymous Coward]

I work as a Tier 1 agent for AppleCare Careful...

Re:It's an option

[Tablizer]

[the minimum price would be a flat-rate repair which is at least $249 but oftentimes it is more than that.] What kind of flat rate is that?

Your wallet is flat after you pay

Re:It's an option

[pimpimpim]

I'd mod you insightful if I could. With 250 dollars for a hard drive replacement you might as well just get a corporate support contract (I know I know, these are even more expensive).

Re:It's an option

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of flat rate is that? It's an iFlat iRate, which makes you irate. But it's in white and makes you say "ooh shiny".

Re:It's an option

[Midnight Thunder]

Because I do support for Macs and I am totally in the dark on how to avoid getting the short end of the stick talking to the lower end people (which has unfortunately happened in my past experiences).

You need to remember that non-standard request sometimes get handled badly is because they are non-standard. Support staff are usually trained for the most usual set of requests and anything that could get missed by your run of the mill 'lower end' person would probably warrant a confirmation from their manager. I would probably approach this by telling the guy that since you realise that it is an unusual request that you just want to make the procedure is right.

Re:It's an option

[joel8x]

It seems pretty much correct for me. If the part costs $75.00, the shipping is about $20.00 each way, the packaging another $5 plus it also had to be shipped one way to the customer, so tack on another $5. Add in labor costs (including phone and service technician time) and $250.00 is very reasonable, if not rather cheap.

Re:It's an option

[Cally]

A different kind of flat rate.

Re:It's an option

[Achromatic1978]

Uhhh, why is shipping the package one way to the customer $5 at one point in your example, then magically jumps to $20 "each way" after that? Each way where? And as an aside, there is no way you'll pay $20 for shipping a HDD.

Re:It's an option

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's true, Apple has an even better scam going: $250 for parts and labor on a 80gb drive. Hardware cost about $40/45 at retail. But hey, isn't asking ~$200 worth the price of a warranty sticker? XD

Re:It's an option

[falconwolf]

I work as a Tier 1 agent for AppleCare and I can assure you that getting your hard drive back for a mail-in repair is an option;

And what if you take it to the Genius Bar?

Falcon

Don't give them the drive in the first place.

[LurkerXXX]

Why in the world did he send them the drive in the first place. If I have or at any time had anything I consider sensitive on a hard drive, it NEVER goes in with the machine for repair. I take it out myself and have them test the box with a fresh drive. Who knows when you will get some snoop perusing your hard drive. Identity theft would be easy with the information available on many computer. Either back up your data and reformat (after a 7 pass rewrite) or don't give them the drive.

Most companies that sell servers have hard drive replacement policies available that let you keep the old drive with confidential data on it. No one should consider less security with their own machines.

Re:Don't give them the drive in the first place.

[falconwolf]

Why in the world did he send them the drive in the first place.

He DID NOT SENT them the drive. He went there and they fixed it there.

Falcon

some genius's at the bar..

[m1ndrape]

I ran into a similar problem. Once I found out that my apple care warranty also forces me to forfeit my drive, it also came to my attention from my attention that it would most likely be a refurb. Plus, I wasn't allowed up to upgrade to a higher capacity drive. My fault for not reading the AppleCare warranty. The "geniuses" at the bar insisted that the entire process of replacing the drive would take 2 weeks and that it was much too hard for mere mortals. Since they didn't have any stock that matched my drive (but they had countless higher capacities laying around), it had to be sent out of state. I was like bullshit, took my drive and my broken hard drive. Replacing it myself took only 15 minutes. don't get me wrong, love my mac, but the warranty plan could improve.

Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem solved.

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[notanatheist]

Because if it is an Apple laptop it is an over engineered piece of crap. I will NEVER take apart another Apple machine unless they improve serviceability. Desktops and Mini does not apply. My favorite is the Mini. Tools needed - a putty knife and small philips screwdriver.

Do yourself a favor, compare as many laptops as you can and find out how quickly you can remove the hard drive. Nearly every 'PC' based requires between 2 and 5 screws to remove the hard drive taking all of 3 minutes if you're completely incompetent. Now, find an Apple and do the same. FWIW, the newer Sony laptops are designed as badly as Apple machines with the only exception being they limit the number of different sized and types of screws.

/rant by hardware snob

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[BlakeReid]

I'm no service tech, but you can replace the hard drive in a Macbook by removing the battery and 3 screws. It's about a 5 minute procedure, as has been noted on further up on the thread.

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[bigstrat2003]

I haven't worked on Minis at all, but the desktops didn't get good (imo) until the G5. The G5 PowerMac is a *dream* to service, I love it. G4s and G3s, on the other hand... pure crap. I once fought with a G4 PowerMac to get the optical drive out for 20 minutes, I kid you not. After that experience, I tried to avoid them as much as possible... and of course, servicing an iMac is something you'd only wish upon someone you really hate.

At least the G5 PowerMacs are good. I approve of those computers, even if I don't use them.

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct about Apple and Sony. I've never seen an easy one of either brand, and I've replaced about 400 of them. Around 100 of them were in G4 PowerBooks, then 1998 tiny Pentium 266 Sony Vaios (great machines that we're still using in the field after almost a decade of daily use, except the display brackets typically only last three to six months), and the rest in G4 iBooks. The Apples were a complete pain in the neck even with the Apple service manual. Even the Apple techs that do this all day every day take 45 minutes to replace the drives. The PowerBook keyboards are even worse. They're glued to the case.

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[greg1104]

You think you're a hardware snob...I won't buy any computer unless I can obtain the full service manual necessary to take everything apart in the case of a failure and the parts to do such a repair are easily available. This means the two laptops around here are a Thinkpad T23 and Lenovo T60 here. For desktops, I build everything myself, not because it's cheaper (you can't beat Dell on raw price) but because I can fix them with completely standard parts at any time.

Re:Why would anybody not replace it him/herself?

[leamanc]

One doesn't have to be a hardware snob to replace a hard drive in an Apple product. They just have to be reasonably competent and print out the guide for their machine at iFixit.

It seems somebody who is technically inclined (i.e., writing source code for something) would have the skills to follow instructions, use torx screwdrivers and open a case.

where is it?

[xubu_caapn]

wait -- i have a harddisk in my car?

Re:where is it?

[sumdumass]

Why not, I have two.

Encrypted FS

[Matt Perry]

This is a good reason to use an encrypted filesystem if you can.

Warranty Service

[linuxbert]

I have certifications to preform waranty service for Apple, IBM, and Toshiba.
All 3 have a procedure to deal with sensitive data on Bad HDD's. - You typically can ask to not send the drive back.
I have never done it with Apple, but IBM and Toshiba have a Affidavit you fill out certifying the drive was destroyed, signed by the tech and the Customer IIRC.

If its non waranty service.. the drive should be sent back.

Encryption is the only way

[Anonymous Coward]

Once your hard drive is under anyone else's physical control, you should assume its bits are compromised. Having you disk returned only increases the number of individuals who have physical access. The only solution if you work with sensitive data is to encrypt your disk. Next time turn on FileVault. And be sure to use a strong passphrase, such as Diceware.

Apple stores always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

$160 for an 80GB HDD? I don't know who is more stupid, the Apple store for demanding it, or this guy for paying it.

Back when I was stupid enough to own a Mac notebook, I had the cable that delivers signal to the screen fail. The Apple store tried to tell me that it was the LCD, and that I would have to pay $1200 for a new one. They categorically refused to order the cable (which was a restricted Apple part, otherwise I would have ordered it myself).

I eventually found an independent shop with an Apple contract that ordered the cable for me (it was something like $30), and I did the replacement. Problem fixed. I then sent the Apple store a demand letter for my $50 "diagnosis fee" back, otherwise I would take them to court for consumer fraud. They paid it.

My subsequent notebooks were PCs, and I never looked back. Apple is a typical 1970s hip ripoff.

Apple should ASK

[Tablizer]

It would be good customer service to ask. I can understand the risk of abuse by giving customers 2 drives for the price of one, but at least one's options should be given up front. They could offer a transfer fee or a keep-old-disk fee or the like. Find a decent compromise.

There ought to be a law

[zakezuke]

Seriously, this is a case where someone needs to construct a good letter to be distributed and sent to our respective congressmen. While matters of property are vague when dealing with warranty repairs, matter of ownership of the data is not. Consumers should have the right to opt for new equipment and keep old drives. I applicate any attempt to reduce, reuse, and recycle but in this age of identity theft that can often not be practical.

Let's work together to make this happen.

hp does it with certain warranties

[philo_enyce]

hp has media retention with some of their extended warranties, at least on the proliant line.

philo

Kind of a whiner

[giminy]

From the story, a few things appear evident:

This Macbook was not under warranty, or the hard disk replacement would have been free.
The $160 that the author is scoffing at isn't that outrageous if you consider that he paid for a hard disk and the labor to install it (though if his generation of macbook is anything like mine, replacing the hard drive is a snap. Still, using his auto analogy, mechanics get to charge you $100 labor to install your brake pads, even though it takes them only a few minutes).
If he had demanded the old disk and made a scene, he probably could have gotten it back.

I agree that saying that the old hard disk is theirs is lame as hell, and he's rightfully angry about that. It's probably the only point of the author's that holds water. There are alternatives to the Apple Store for repair, though. CompUSA was one (though it's now going out of business). There are other Apple Authorized Service Shops, like Ikon Solutions, and the old-skool Apple stores (privately owned ones, of which many still exist).

I once decided to have an old iBook's hard disk upgraded. I took it to CompUSA (please don't snicker, the iBook was under warranty, CompUSA is/was apple authorized so it meant saving my warranty, and this was around the year 2000, before Apple Stores were everywhere). When I took it in, I simply asked to keep the old drive and they were happy to put it in a static bag for me.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

Still, using his auto analogy, mechanics get to charge you $100 labor to install your brake pads, even though it takes them only a few minutes). I don't know of many cars where it only takes a few minutes. Drums perhaps, but disc, I'd wager 30min to an hour plus testing.

I listed here the basics that need to be done for caliper removal. Add to that

1. Lift
2. Inspection (fluid leakage / rotor thickness)
3. Cleaning (asbestos brake dust where applicable)
4. Rotor turning (sometimes you can get away without doing this, but really)
5. Pad replacement (even decent mechanics have trouble with those clips)
6. Reassembly
7. Bleeding
8. Testing (typically on the road)

Me, I give my self two hours to do the job. I would be worried if the job took less than 35min.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[giminy]

I did it myself a few years ago on my Subaru, and it took me maybe a half hour for both front brakes. This with only the tools that came with the car (crappy jack plus standard issue box wrench/screwdriver), no lift, no a priori knowledge of how to replace pads (Haynes manual in hand). Here's a blog entry from when I did it: link.

I found it to be incredibly easy, though perhaps Subies are easier-than-your-average-car. It took me about 25-30 minutes plus driving down the road/washing my hands with orange cleaner time. I didn't bleed the brakes at the time (I ended up doing that a few months later, more for learning than because anything was wrong). I simply unbolted one of the caliper bolts, swung the caliper up, used a c-clamp to squeeze the piston down, removed pads, replaced, swung caliper down, rebolted, and went on a test drive. It's been a few years, and the brakes are still happy. Next time it won't take me so long, as I'll remember to mark which way the shims go in :).

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

I found it to be incredibly easy, though perhaps Subies are easier-than-your-average-car. It took me about 25-30 minutes plus driving down the road/washing my hands with orange cleaner time. I can't say i've worked on a suburu, but 25-30min is pretty stellar for a first time out. I can say buying pre-loaded calipers and having one come unassembled it took the mechanic 12min to re-assemble one without a work bench.

Missing from your estimate is rotor turning, which may or may not be needed, bleeding and at least 5min on the road.

I take longer because I tend to clean very throughly.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[Anonymous Coward]

You're insulting him by calling him a whiner, and then suggesting he should have made a scene at the apple store (ie, whined REALLY loudly)? His complaint is entirely legitimate and not a whine at all...

Re:Kind of a whiner

[Anonymous Coward]

they were happy to put it in a static bag for me

Wow! That's pretty poor service! I would have asked them to put it in an anti-static bag or at least just give it to me uncovered. :)

Re:Kind of a whiner

[Tran]

Doing it that quick the first time is pretty unusual; probably means you have a knack for understanding mechanical devices. But also, while I do not know about the current Subarus, the Subarus of the 80s where definelty set up to be easily self serviceable. Iirc, they even won consumer awards serveral years for this "feature".

Re:Kind of a whiner

[VeteranNoob]

The $160 that the author is scoffing at isn't that outrageous if you consider that he paid for a hard disk and the labor to install it (though if his generation of macbook is anything like mine, replacing the hard drive is a snap. Still, using his auto analogy, mechanics get to charge you $100 labor to install your brake pads, even though it takes them only a few minutes).

I don't quite understand your logic. Because he paid normal price for parts and labor, he is obligated to give up his old, paid-for drive and all the personal data on it? So he should only get mad if it wasn't a great deal for him?

As you said, this was not warranty work or it would have been free. Apple acted as a service center and installed a new hard drive for the guy. Unless they worked out a deal beforehand, they have no more right to take his hard drive than they do taking his battery or any other piece of hardware.

If he had demanded the old disk and made a scene, he probably could have gotten it back.

That shouldn't be required at all. If you don't believe that people have an inherent right to their own property, then I politely request your home address. We'll see whether your views on ownership or established laws on theft take precedence.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[sootman]

A bit of clarification: the drive in a MacBook is super-cinchy to replace: take out the battery, loosen three captive screws, take off the cover, slide out the drive. MacBook Pros (MacBooks Pro?), on the other hand, are a huge PITA--you've practically got to take apart the whole machine. Awesome guides for these and many other Macs are here. (I have no connection to them, I'm just a happy reader.)

Re:Kind of a whiner

[giminy]

For sure the Subaru is easy. The one I have is from 1994. My first real mechanical experience with the car was several weeks prior to the brake job -- I changed out the alternator and it was an equally easy job (twenty minutes or so...forty if you count the fact that I had to go to a hardware store to buy some sockets). I also worked on my dad's a bit (his is an Outback from 1999) and it is still quite easy to work on. As for 'having a knack,' I beg to differ :). My girlfriend owns an '04 Honda and it is not nearly so easy to work on (changing the oil requires putting the car on a lift, as the ground clearance is too low, and the jack points are too small and low for a standard jack, for example). I bought an oil sucking pump and tried changing her oil that way a few weeks ago -- the pump's hose broke off and fell into the oil pan, and I ended up taking it to a mechanic (he had to pull the motor up in order to drop the oil pan off).

My guess is that if a mechanic is skilled, trained, and has a lot of equipment, doing a brake job on most cars would be pretty easy -- comparable to replacing a hard drive for a computer geek (pull apart case, plug in, boot up, format disk, reinstall os/mirror old disk onto new disk).

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

My girlfriend owns an '04 Honda and it is not nearly so easy to work on (changing the oil requires putting the car on a lift, as the ground clearance is too low, and the jack points are too small and low for a standard jack, for example). I would usually use ramps for oil changes, but I have experienced cars where the front end dipped too low so driving onto ramps resulted in the ramps getting caught and dragging them forward. I don't know the 2004 honda, but usually there is a scissors jack that one uses to change the tires.

I bought an oil sucking pump and tried changing her oil that way a few weeks ago -- the pump's hose broke off and fell into the oil pan, and I ended up taking it to a mechanic (he had to pull the motor up in order to drop the oil pan off). I feel your pain here. to do a clutch in a 1986 Camry requires removal of so much stuff such as a front end stabilizer bar. It was such hard work I wondered whether it would be easier just to pull the engine. On a side note, the oil pan nut was stripped which I recommended replacing the pan, which was rejected due to cost. I then recommended pulling the pan and tapping the bolt a larger size requiring only a gasket replacement, that was rejected. Too bad as well, the vehicle was loosing at least a quart every two weeks, and you can see how that could add up fast.

I consider my self mechanically adept, but given my experience with my first car I found it easier to just buy pre-loaded calipers. I'm comfortable replacing a clutch, pulling an engine, but pads are where I draw the line.

My guess is that if a mechanic is skilled, trained, and has a lot of equipment, doing a brake job on most cars would be pretty easy -- comparable to replacing a hard drive for a computer geek (pull apart case, plug in, boot up, format disk, reinstall os/mirror old disk onto new disk). I would rank the mechanic profession as requiring much more in the way of investment. As you might expect, a mechanic provides their own tools, and not the cheap ones you or I buy, brands like Snap-On. Buying the manuals isn't cheep either, there are often libraries on CD-ROM/DVD to handle most every symptom. On top of that emission requirements.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[giminy]

I would rank the mechanic profession as requiring much more in the way of investment. As you might expect, a mechanic provides their own tools, and not the cheap ones you or I buy, brands like Snap-On. Buying the manuals isn't cheep either, there are often libraries on CD-ROM/DVD to handle most every symptom. On top of that emission requirements.

This I didn't know. I sort of figured that whatever shop a mechanic ends up working for would provide the tools. My brother is a carpenter, though, so I guess I should know better (I've been buying him good tools for christmas just about every year while he "makes ends meet," -- I wonder if carpenters ever do that these days ;-)). Got to love the programming business -- pretty much the only tool I've had to buy is my laptop, the development environment is free for home use for putzing around, and my employer pays for my tools at work. Well, that, and the pay and the hours are better. I guess I'll stick to my day job...

Re:Kind of a whiner

[mabhatter654]

I think the store was clearly wrong not to return the drive upon demand as the customer paid full price. From other posts Apple has a policy to handle this situation some PHB at the counter wasn't willing to pull out the right "contract" and make the customer's request right.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

This I didn't know. I sort of figured that whatever shop a mechanic ends up working for would provide the tools. Most of my experience base comes from a shop class, a really bad shop class. I think it was the woodshop teacher who got suckered into the job because he took one glass on the college level, one which he said he didn't remember. But I have talked to mechanics and being employed at any shop you are not only required to provide your own tools, it's often preferred by the mechanics. There is this mind/body/tool connection that needs to be achieved which can't happen if you swap out tools. Easco, Snapon, Matco, Mac, and SK are some of the popular mechanic grade tools. They really are not cheap, $10 to $20 for an average wrench.
SK offers a basic body set for about $2000 same with a 227 piece starter set. A master set is close to $10,000. Snap-On I know more about, and they offer some installment plans on their tools. Not so bad if this is your trade.

The shop only really provides a lift, air power, and in rare cases a PC with a library of manuals. In some cases a machine shop on site. I'm sort of vague on the site/mechanic relationship, I would wager many mechanics essentially rent shop space, where others actually are employed by a company.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[jridley]

Whu? I've done my own brakes since I was a teenager. DISCS are the simple ones. Drums always take longer; you have to get an adjuster in there to back off the tension just to get the drum off, once you do that there's a bunch of springs and levers, all of which are probably half rusted up so you need to clean everything, etc.

Discs are a snap. Take the wheel off, loosen a couple of bolts, the caliper is out, squish down the piston with a presser tool, snap in the new pads, dab on some lubricants on the sliders and a few other points, bolt everything back up and you're done. Sometimes the rotors need turning, but I haven't had to do that for years now, at 125000 miles my rotors are still dead flat. I can't remember the last time I saw any leakage, etc but I don't use aftermarket parts either. I don't have to bleed them since I don't take any hydraulics apart.

I'd guess maybe 10 minutes on a tire, working with a floor jack in my driveway and hand tools. If I had a lift and air tools, I could certainly knock a few minutes off that.

I've had it take an hour just to get a single drum off a pickup if things were really gummed up.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[jridley]

ISTM that buying "preloaded calipers" would be a huge increase in time. It takes all of about 15 seconds to put the pads in the calipers, maybe another minute to press down the adjuster too.

Problem is, if you replace the caliper, you have to bleed the system. I don't know why you'd want to replace the caliper anyway if there's nothing wrong with it. I've probably only replaced 3 or 4 calipers in my life.

I've never even seen a place selling "preloaded calipers". Seems to me this is like buying a refrigerator preloaded with milk and eggs.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

Whu? I've done my own brakes since I was a teenager. DISCS are the simple ones. Drums always take longer; you have to get an adjuster in there to back off the tension just to get the drum off, once you do that there's a bunch of springs and levers, all of which are probably half rusted up so you need to clean everything, etc. I've done my own brakes since I was a teenager, and I can say discs always take me longer. Even taking into account the tension to get the drum off, you have two shoes held together by two springs with the tension thing in the middle. I imagine if my old cars had calipers with easier systems of removal and replacement I would modify that statement.

I don't have to bleed them since I don't take any hydraulics apart. The only way you can KNOW you have to bleed them is to test the fluid. Test strips cost as much as a pint of fluid. I'm sure there are other ways to test the system, but really it should be part of preventative maintenance. Water saturation does decrease the boiling point of the fluid, and this can result in a serious condition.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[zakezuke]

ISTM that buying "preloaded calipers" would be a huge increase in time. It takes all of about 15 seconds to put the pads in the calipers, maybe another minute to press down the adjuster too. It certainly takes more than 15 seconds. In the past I've had others load pads on my calipers for me, and it took them at best 12min. On YOUR car it might take 15sec, but my last car, not even. I don't know about my current car as I didn't have a manual handy when I needed brakes.

But needless to say, trained mechanics that helped me with my pads recommended pre-loaded calipers as it would be what they would buy for my car at the time.

Problem is, if you replace the caliper, you have to bleed the system. I don't know why you'd want to replace the caliper anyway if there's nothing wrong with it. I've probably only replaced 3 or 4 calipers in my life. You should be replacing the brake fluid anyway, or at the very least testing. Given the cost of test strips vs the cost of a pint of brake fluid, might as well flush the system. Technically one probably should consider flushing before a brake job. Ford and BMW and Suburu say about 30k. Fluid boil is a legit concern.

I've never even seen a place selling "preloaded calipers". Seems to me this is like buying a refrigerator preloaded with milk and eggs. Not exactly. Odds are if you need a caliper you should consider pads as well. There clearly is enough of a market for pre-loaded calipers for me to be able to buy them. The added cost is $25/side and assurance that you get a new set of rubber seals. I will consult a Hayes auto manual on the subject to see if pad replacement on this car is as easy as other cars, but either way I wouldn't do a brakejob without flushing the system.

Re:Kind of a whiner

[jridley]

Not sure what brand of car you're working on. I've only ever worked on Ford and Chevy. Once you have the caliper in hand, replacing the pads is, well, grasp pad, remove, grasp new pad, insert. Done. 15 seconds for both pads.

I guess I'm driving dangerously then. I generally drive cars 200,000 miles, I only bleed them if I replace a caliper (which isn't often - I've taken a couple of cars to the grave at 200K+ with all original stuff and never bled the brakes) and I've never had a problem. If there was much water getting into the fluid, you'd think I'd have had a piston seize on me or something by now.

Of course, I'm a very conservative driver in an area with flat terrain, so boiling the fluid just isn't an issue for me. Heck, on my current car, I replaced my brake pads for the first time at 100K, and they didn't really need it, I just was replacing everything else and a full set of pads was $40.

Sure he should get it back, but...

[caller9]

What was his plan if the device was lost or stolen?

Encryption goes a long way in remedying this particular dilemma. If you're worried enough about it to freak when they don't send the drive back, you should be worried about loss or theft. Use TrueCrypt or your favorite encryption software for those files.

I find that surprising

[Cracked Pottery]

I would expect that somebody as gross and belligerent as I would be in that situation would get his damn drive back or end up in lockup. It might be failed, but still have recoverable data. There is no legal claim to that property that I think should ever prevail in court. If they are offering an exchange price, fine. If they are refusing a full price sale with return of the old drive, they are out of line.

My experience with Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

I also had a drive go bad on me with the iBook G4, only when I called them to replace it, they wanted to charge me $702 (Yes, you read correctly) to replace the drive. I told them the laptop itself is only $999 to begin with. I had also paid for my Mac software -- and unfortunately I was forced to either pay to have my hard drive replaced, or lose my near $1k software investment. I chose to abandon Apple products entirely (iPod, iSight, iBook...) and now have first hand experience on what it means to avoid proprietary software.

Apple is worse than Microsoft -- tying your data straight to the computer you own. OSx86 is not a solution either.

Re:My experience with Apple...

[reidconti]

So you bought commercial software, threw out the disks, then when your hard disk died you got pissed at Apple for it? I'm sorry, but you're just stupid.

A lot of the comments on this topic are fairly pathetic apologists; there's no reason for Apple to not give back the drive if you're paying for the repair, but your comment is even more ridiculous.

I also have a hard time believing they wanted to charge you $702 to replace the drive, especially when all of the other people commenting who have had drives replaced by Apple paid 1/5th or less.

I also completely fail to see how your experience would have been any different with anything other than F/OSS that you could re-download later. But then again, you'd still lose your personal data.

Fail.

Re:My experience with Apple...

[kannibal_klown]

I also had a drive go bad on me with the iBook G4, only when I called them to replace it, they wanted to charge me $702 (Yes, you read correctly) to replace the drive. I told them the laptop itself is only $999 to begin with.

I find this a little hard to swallow, unless they also found something wrong with a mainboard. I had a new PowerBook G4, and around that time I was also building custom rigs. I purchased myself a lot of hard-drives (including high performance 2.5" drives) and they were never anywhere NEAR that. Granted Apple has a premium on their stuff, but even with that in consideration there's no way.

So either there was more to this story (like a lightning strike fried mostly everything) or I smell troll.

Re:My experience with Apple...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have the media from your "$1k software investment?" You're too stupid to be allowed to keep a computer.

Re:My experience with Apple...

[Dr. Evil]

Don't be so quick to judge. The difficultly of replacing the HDD in the iBook G4 is a design flaw. It's all labour.

Here's how you do it yourself: http://www.faqintosh.com/risorse/en/guides/hw/ibook/g4hd/

Warrantied Components

[secondhand_Buddah]

Having owned a small dealership for a while, I can tell you that the manufacturers require faulty goods in warranty to be returned for swap-out. If the component is under warranty, then you don't get it back. Out of warranty, we always used to give the client back the old components. They belong to the client. Our service was to replace them, not to claim ownership of them.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

What?

[SuperBanana]

If there's sensitive information on the drive, you have every right to want it back (especially if it wasn't warranty work).

It's so trivially easy to encrypt data on a Mac, any decently saavy user gets exactly what they deserved in this kind of situation. Public service announcment: It's FOUR clicks to turn on FileVault, (seamless encryption for your entire home folder.) STOP BITCHING AND USE THE SECURITY FEATURES GIVEN TO YOU. BY APPLE. Oh, and did I mention it's just as easy to create a secure disk image, just for your "code" to live in? Protip: look in Disk Utility.

If it wasn't warranty work, why didn't the guy hire someone to replace the drive himself, since drives are dirt cheap @ retail prices? The drives are NOT (despite the tags on this article) proprietary. If it's that big a deal and it WAS under warranty, why didn't he do it outside the warranty? An hour's labor and the cost of the drive, and he's done- could probably even have it done on-site. On most macs save the Macbook Pros, it's a few screws at most to get to the drive. A child could get to the drive on a Macbook, flat panel iMac, G4, or G5/Mac Pro. Apple can't deny a warranty claim unless they can prove you did the damage or your drive caused the problems you're having, thanks to the Magnuson-Moss Warrant Act.

Apple deserves the highest possible mark of shame for this disregard for the security of their customers' information, it's absolutely not permissible.

Um...what? This is standard practice in the industry; components replaced under warranty have to be replaced, even if you're a big-shot enterprise comapny with a several-thousand-dollar 4-hour 24x7 support contract. "Highest possible mark of shame"? Jebzus, save the drama fo you momma.

PS: If you're that bothered about your data, and the drive failure is not complete- use dd to write /dev/random to the drive (with the skip-on-errors option) before you return it. If the failure is serious enough that such a method doesn't work, then your data is most likely not retrievable by a casual user- someone would have to go to the trouble of ripping apart the drive and repairing the mechanism, and guess what? You're one guy with "valuable code" in a sea of hard drives with nothing more scandalous than some racy photos in iPhoto and maybe some hot & steamy emails to old flames...

If you think someone will go beyond casual efforts because your stuff is that important/valuable/risky, why didn't you encrypt it?

Re:What?

[hyades1]

As somebody with a pair of velcro trainers, I deeply resent your comparison.

Re:What?

[bigstrat2003]

It wasn't warranty work. Furthermore, if you'd read TFA, you'd have noticed that they told him his drive wasn't his anymore AFTER they replaced it and he signed the paper.

In any case, Apple owes it to their customers to give them their drive back, if it isn't warranty work. If it is, and Apple really wants that drive back so bad, they owe it to their customers to offer the option (at a small cost, obviously, although bonus points if it's free) of a thorough data scrub. Anything less than this is ludicrous.

Re:What?

[EvanED]

This is standard practice in the industry; components replaced under warranty have to be replaced...

Except that this was replaced beyond the warranty; it cost him $160. At that price I would expect to actually be buying a drive, not trading in an old one. 80 GB laptop drives on Newegg range from $55 to $88, which means that, at $160, installation is between $72 and $105. That's already fairly high, but I'm willing to grant Apple that they have to worry about breaking more, and need to have a profit too. But that price plus the old drive? That's voluntary highway robbery!

It's his loss for signing the contract without reading it, but that doesn't mean that we can't sit back here and berate Apple for being stupid.

Re:What?

[bigstrat2003]

Don't hate velcro, man. Not everyone who wears velcro shoes does so from lack of knowledge how to tie shoes. I wear velcro shoes, for the sheer laziness factor. Velcro is the unintelligent man's shoe, yes, but also the lazy man's shoe.

Re:What?

[trentblase]

No, they told him the drive wasn't his anymore BEFORE they replaced the drive. This happened when they gave him the terms in WRITING. This guy bugs me.... "wah wah wah, I knew I was getting ripped off but I have so much money that I figured it wasn't worth buying a cheaper drive on the internet. Apple should give me the same customer service on my $2k laptop as BMW does on my $80k car. Also, I have so much money I don't need to read contracts before I sign them because I figure my lawyer will handle any problems for me. Or my publicist will get slashdot on my side". Sure, Apple should be required to wipe the drive. But that one legitimate point is hardly addressed/pursued in TFA.

Re:What?

[Achromatic1978]

I love it. You rail against "people are so stupid they shouldn't sign papers saying 'I will be ripped off'". You make no complaint, whatsoever, about the rip off practice at all. No sir, fix the symptom, not the problem.

As an aside, what in blue fuck justification does Apple have for "We'll require you to buy a new drive from us - at greater than normal pricing - AND you will not get your old drive, that you paid for, back - it's now our property, so we can get even more money out of you by virtue of then returning that drive to manufacturer for credit. Our profit goes up, everybody* wins!"

*everybody being a synonym for "Apple shareholders"

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not required to buy anything from Apple. If your computer is out of waranty, you can have anyone work on it. If you want Apple to work on it, then yes, they will require you buy the drive from them, and they will require that they keep the old drive, but that's also because they waranty the part and labor when they do the work, But in the end he didn't have to have Apple replace the drive. What good is consumer choice if people don't use it?

Re:What?

[trentblase]

If you know you are getting ripped off, and choose to complete the transaction without coercion, then it is by definition NOT a rip off. As an aside, what justification does anyone have for making any profit in what they do?

Wait a second...

[VValdo]

What if the data on the drive can be recovered? What if there are credit card numbers and other personal information on the drive? Source code? Trade secrets? Does Apple really want to treat their customers privacy so shabbily? For what? Don't they already make enough money off the $160 price for the new disk?

Here's another question for ya-- why didn't you use FileVault? Y'know apple throws it in OS X for ya for *free* for a reason...

W

Re:Wait a second...

[lmfr]

FileVault didn't work for me. I keep my /Users in another partition, and FileVault successfully encrpyted my home, but OS X was afterwards unable to mount it.

I tried then to restore a backup of my home (not encrypted), but OS X kept trying, and failing, to mount a FileVault home, so I had to reinstall OS X.

Re:Wait a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

Was this Leopard or Tiger? And was this an Archive and Install from a previous version? Or did you just turn it on one day? Just out of curiosity...

I've had no problems (not across partitions, but I don't see why it should matter), but there was a change from Tiger->Leopard in that Leopard now uses sparsebundles rather than sparsefiles...

Re:Wait a second...

[Killjoy_NL]

Ah, the Windows Experience :)

Re:Wait a second...

[dreamchaser]

What exactly does that have to do with Apple not returning the damaged drive? What if I want it as a paperweight? The reason for wanting it back shouldn't matter. Of course, that won't stop the fanbois from avoiding the issue that Apple was wrong in this instance.

Re:Wait a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

File vault can be unreliable. It has a few security problems. And it slows down performance on your computer.

Re:Wait a second...

[VValdo]

What if I want it as a paperweight?

Sorry, I was responding to the original article poster's concern about data loss. I forgot most people don't RTFA or even the quoted exerpt from TFA, so accept my apologies for failing to address your random concern about paperweights.

W

Re:Wait a second...

[VValdo]

I mean data privacy, not data loss. Too early in the morning to be posting I guess.

W

Re:Wait a second...

[lmfr]

I think leopard. I had just installed it from scratch, with little data in my home partition, and decided to give FileVault a try.

Note that I wasn't able to mount my new, protected home, either with my password or the master one. So I couldn't even find a way to revert the change except with a reinstall.

Re:Wait a second...

[Just Some Guy]

Here's another question for ya-- why didn't you use FileVault?

Because it's incompatible with Time Machine. OK, technically that's not 100% true, but the deficiencies are big enough (won't backup your home directory until you log out; can only restore whole files at a file and not individual records) that I won't be using it.

Re:Wait a second...

[TheSkyIsPurple]

I've read several posts, and I still don't get it.

If you want your stuff back, make sure that's part of the up front agreement.
Maybe they're able to lower their prices (doubtful seeing their prices, but hey, for sake of argument) by factoring in their ability to refurbish the replaced part. If that's the theory at all, the difference in price is effectively what they're paying you to make your old drive theirs.

Or more concretely... why is that drive still yours? Contracts require consideration. You have entered into a contract with them, trading the consideration of "making my computer do something useful again" for "some money and and whatever parts we replace". Doesn't seem patently unfair, as long as it's understood up front.

Others have mentioned the car analogy... but failed to mention that in most cases you have to ask for the return parts "UP FRONT". If you don't make that request at the beginning of your transaction, the shop is under no obligation to save your parts for you. And as I understand it, that's more or less Apple's policy as well. So, it's really no different. (And the "UP FRONT" part largely disclaims anyone's idea that it's your natural property rights that caused this law to come into effect... it was entirely a way to deal with constant fraud on the mechanic's part)

The only thing I'm seeing that Apple would have to do to come in line with the auto-repair law would be to post a sign in their shop (that you're not going to read anyway) informing you of the ask/deliver policy on parts.

Re:Wait a second...

[rhizome]

Here's another question for ya-- why didn't you use FileVault?

Here's a question right back at you: what good does advice given after the fact do?

Re:Wait a second...

[dookiesan]

thank you

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus dude, I can smell your karma burning from here...

No Mac for me!

[jigyasubalak]

I have always been enthralled by all the comparison of Macs with Ferraris
and the sorts. For long,I've stopped myself from purchasing a Mac though I can
afford it because of its proprietary nature and of course the wife feels
that we are doing fine with the good old windows(or sometimes linux) desktop.
But after the release of leopard i convinced myself and my wife for atleast
an entry level Mac i.e. a Mac-Mini.
After reading stories like this I've again made up my mind not to purchase
a Mac. Apple, enough of your hedonistic practices. It surprises me that Apple
is resorting to such practices in the midst of a place which we cite for
unmatched consumer friendliness.

Re:No Mac for me!

[ColdWetDog]

Maybe next time you could splurge and get a system with line wrap...

Just a thought.

Re:No Mac for me!

[SeaFox]

After reading stories like this I've again made up my mind not to purchase
a Mac. Apple, enough of your hedonistic practices. It surprises me that Apple
is resorting to such practices in the midst of a place which we cite for
unmatched consumer friendliness.

Playing devil's advocate here: Have you ever had this situation happen to you with your existing pre-made PCs (assuming you have one, maybe you build your own)? You assume this is some special Apple experience, where I imagine a Dell customer would have the exact same problem.

Re:No Mac for me!

[mr_matticus]

Hedonistic?

You use that word, but I do not think it means,[sic] what you think it means.

Re:No Mac for me!

[cerberusss]

Amen, brother. After having read the story, I think to myself: if as an office manager, you have to point the customer to the fine print, have you done well?

No, of course not. The point is NOT that you are legally in your rights. The point is that the customer is dissatisfied. The office manager should've said:

"Look I know you're disappointed. This is the way we work and I can clearly see that it had been better if it was explained to you before hand. There is no way I can get your old drive back, but do you already have a webcam for your laptop?"

Re:No Mac for me!

[jigyasubalak]

If I were getting a replacement of the broken hard drive for "free" I'd still be able to understand them keeping the old one. But after paying a bomb for the replacement hard drive I WANT my old hard drive back. No question about it.
In my windows/linux desktop i just go out and purchase a hard drive if my old one is out of warranty and shove it in. I don't have to worry about proprietary shit getting out of warranty!

two points

[edwardpickman]

Did he make it conditional up front to return the defective drive? If he didn't it was probably thrown on a pile with other drives making it impossible to return. The other point is I've dealt with surplus and most companies don't recycle intact drives the first thing they do is drill or punch a hole through the drive making them impossible to recover data from. I'm guessing that's Apple's policy like most major companies. There's an outside chance of people in the repair department pocketing the defective drive for recovery but that's a risk anywhere and has nothing to do with Apple.

Re:two points

[thegrassyknowl]

It's almost never impossible to recover data - it really depends on how much the data is worth to you and the damage to the disk or how well it was overwritten.

First mistake

[lordsid]

His first mistake was letting Apple replace the hard drive he wanted to keep.

Re:First mistake

[Anonymous Coward]

No, his first mistake was buying an Apple after the Woz left...

LONG LIVE THE APPLE ][gs!!!!!!

Several things to add here...

[jht]

First of all, there's a problem with an awful lot of 80GB Seagate drives that are (mainly) used in Macbooks. Apple has been acknowledging it to a limited extent, and even though the laptop was out of warranty, the drive would likely been covered if enough of a stink was raised.

Secondly, if he paid for a replacement, he should have been allowed to keep the old drive. Once you're paying, you are buying the new part and the labor involved. Although, if his drive in fact has the same problem the Seagate 80s are coming up with, data snooping is not a problem... (the failed drives are, in fact, causing platter damage)

Third (and most important, perhaps), he should likely have been aware that on a Macbook the drive is a user-replaceable part. You remove the battery, unscrew the three screws that hold the memory/HD in place, and just pull the drive. Put the positioning screws on a new one, slide it in, and all is well with the world. I did a swap-out for a customer of mine two weeks ago who had a Seagate die, and the new 120 I put in cost about $100. The work took 5 minutes, most of which was spent looking for my screwdriver set!

Apple should get things clear though, and also step up and start a warranty extension for these drives. They've been pretty good about it with other hardware issues so far.

Re:Several things to add here...

[Swampash]

If you (and I mean "you" in a general sense) have an Apple laptop with a factory-installed Seagate hard drive, and you

a) haven't backed up every byte at hourly intervals, and;
b) keep sensitive data on that hard drive, then

c) you deserve no sympathy when the drive dies. Because it will.

Google "seagate+macbook" for hours of fun.

Re:Several things to add here...

[SiliconSlick]

Third (and most important, perhaps), he should likely have been aware that on a Macbook the drive is a user-replaceable part. Unlike some PowerBooks which require almost total disassembly.

Re:Several things to add here...

[mabhatter654]

I think the issue was more customer service than an Apple problem. The guy COULD have replaced the part on his own, he knew he was being ripped off price but it was an "apple certified" replacement, so they couldn't blame him later for a non-apple part like support likes to do. They already had the laptop on the bench for testing, they had the tools and he could walk out with a fixed laptop right now, so the extra $$$ was worth it.

He is at fault for probably not paying careful attention to the fine print, but it's management's fault for not getting the customer the CORRECT fine print after he indicated he wasn't satisfied.. They could have obtained the Correct contract for $20 more dollars and he'd have been all set. the deal's not done until the customer walks out the door!

Auto Mechanics

[Nom du Keyboard]

Auto mechanics don't give back your used parts out of the goodness of their hearts. They give them back because consumer law forces them to do so.

A similar consumer law should force the return of replaced parts on computers, and don't expect Apple to change their mind about it until such a law is passed. And while they're at it, they should forbid under pain of long jail sentences, computer technicians from rifling through your hard drive for files of interest. I'll let the occasional child porn collector slip past this barrier in the interests of increased privacy from young geeks in the process. And I'd test them from time to time with decoy systems with files too interesting to resist by anyone who is pursuing through your personal data.

Seriously?

[c0d3h4x0r]

If a hard drive dies in your Mac, you have to ship the machine to Apple and have them replace it? You can't just order a new drive off NewEgg or buy one down at Fry's and put it in yourself?

If that's truly the case, I'll stick with the dumpy boring guy in the ugly brown suit, thank you very much.

Re:Seriously?

[kannibal_klown]

It depends on the model and revision. Some Apple laptops aren't too bad to swap out, some (maybe most) are a pain. Such as instead of a simple bay or screw you had to take apart the whole enclosure. Which isn't too bad, just intimidating and you have to google for instructions.

Bear in mind that I had PC laptops that weren't too old (P4 2.0 GHz) where the hard-drive was encased in a similar manner. So Apple isn't really the only one that does it this way.

Since he was out of warrantee I don't see why he didn't do it himself. My brother had to do that with a 5 year old PowerBook and it wasn't that bad. Bought a nice Seagate from NewEgg, installed the drive, and installed the OS. No problem. The hardest part was just taking the extra care to make sure he put everything back together correctly.

Re:Seriously?

[dn15]

On any current Mac laptop it's trivial to swap out the hard disk. It's literally a five-minute operation on a regular MacBook; no harder than adding RAM. It takes a little longer on a MacBook Pro because you have to take the topcase off -- but even that would take any half-decent Mac techie 20 minutes to do. Either way, it was totally unnecessary to send it in to Apple. it should have just gone to a local Mac specialist rather than being sent away to Apple.

Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[D.A. Zollinger]

I cannot count how many times I have heard this advice, yet it bears out repeating over and over and over again - do not sign ANYTHING without reading it first. This is the person's mistake, and he willingly admits to his mistake. It is a shame that it happened at an Apple store, but to be honest, it could have been anywhere, even an automotive repair shop.

The only reason automobile mechanics must give you a replaced part if you ask for it is so that you can get a second opinion afterwards, thus hoping to reduce fraud that tends to run rampant at some questionable automotive places where either through technician ignorance, negligence, or through purposeful managerial policy, a part is replace that does not need to be replaced.

Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold. As a paying customer, you are a part of that economic system. If you do not wish to participate, that is your prerogative, and with standardization of components, you are more than welcome to find an alternative (which ironically the consumer considered and should have pursued).

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[diskis]

> Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold.

Almost. Spareparts (parts that are returned) are taxed differently than regular parts. Apple pays less for a drive that is returned. So do _ALL_ computer manufacturers. Some do have 'keep your harddrive' fees, pay that and you'll keep the drive. The cost is to cover the taxes.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[adolf]

The only reason a mechanic gives you the option of retaining your failed car parts is because they are your property. You own them. You can do whatever you want with them. Make them into paperweights, industrial art projects, second opinions, sell them for scrap - whatever you want. They're still yours. Core charges or not, "Remove and Replace" != "Remove, Replace, Recycle."

When I have my car serviced, I fully expect that all of my old parts are sitting in a pile somewhere, waiting for me to claim/disclaim them. Of course, my mechanic doesn't have me sign anything with annoying fine print on it before he begins work, like it seems that Apple does.

But signed agreement or no, it seems like bad business. When a customer gives me a computer, or a TiVo, or whatever and asks me to fix it, every part (screws, dead fans, hard drives, bulging capacitors, whatever) I remove goes into a box. After the repair is complete, I offer whatever remains in that box back to the customer.

Usually they decide that they don't want it, but until that decision is made then those extra/failed parts remain theirs.

There's a couple of exceptions to this:

Warranty work. Like exchanging a screwdriver at Sears, there's no expectation that one will retain ownership of the old item if it is being replaced under warranty.

Contracts and agreements. In the audio business, years ago, we sometimes sold substantial upgrades to commercial PA systems which weren't at all broken, but which the customer just wanted to have work better or be more flexible. It wasn't uncommon to have verbiage in the quotation which would permit us to remove and dispose of all upgraded/displaced equipment in a manner we saw fit. The potential to re-sell (or re-use) some of this old gear was definitely a factor in the price of an upgrade, and it would generally save the customer some money if they'd let us keep the old gear. But without being upfront and telling them that it would be part of the deal, taking these old components would have been theft

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Kadin2048]

I think you're ignoring the real reason why the mechanic offers you the parts back: it's the law. Not even just general property-law (which it ought to be) but -- in most states, anyway -- part of very specific laws governing automobile repair.

Frankly I think it's time to see this generalized out to include computer repair as well, or at least to devices that can contain data, but I don't expect to see it happen until there are a few more high-profile cases of misuse or abuse of confidential information by technicians (or people further down in the refurbish/refuse cycle).

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[djupedal]

Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold.

Bullshit - they get $$ - credit from the manuf. Apple sends it back.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

In some of the past/historical circumstances cited keeping old parts has or hasn't been the right thing to do.

HD's or any other memory/data retentive devices (cell-phones, PDA's, thumb-drives) negate all the past rules by simple virtue of the fact that they now contain content added since the manufacture/sale of the device. It's now more than the simple sum of its parts.

Trade-secrets/proprietary commercial data, personal info such as SS and CC numbers, banking data exist on literally all said devices,. Acceptable, uniform and standardized protocols need to evolve to address this universal and growing problem.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[pimpimpim]

You are totally right with this advice, BUT:

I don't know how fast you can read, but reading through the standard EULA is a hard task for most of us. It also depends on the product. When considering a DSL, server, or mobile phone contract I'll check first to see the rules on ending the contract (because this will be the most expensive part), and if they mention a Fair Use Policy or a way to cap data transfer above a certain limit, not to get into huge costs. The rest of the text I'll leave it for what it is. And the only reason why I read these things is because I had bad experiences in the past, otherwise I wouldn't have known about them.

When consider buying a 8 euro headset, would I read the standard eula? Would you?

Reading EULAs is a time-consuming activity that sometimes doesn't even help you further in knowing what you're up to because of the "encrypted" legal language. And you really need to know what you are looking for. In that respect, it is actually useful to read slashdot and especially forums on the product of your interest and get info on cases like these.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[nullhero]

...do not sign ANYTHING without reading it first. I work in a call center for a bank, and I don't know how many times I tell people that they signed a particular agreement binding us and them to something. And that they should have read it prior to signing but people really don't take the time, usually five minutes, to read anything.

If you don't want to do it then take the consequences, and shut up. I like when people tell me you can't possibly read everything. Here's a story:

When I was buying my house I was scheduled to meet with the lawyer for the closing at 3:00pm. They made me wait till 5:30pm which I was okay with because it seemed they were busy. When it came time I looked, and read, every single piece of paperwork, and found that my monthly payment had an extra $300 tacked to it. I looked at the paralegal, who just wanted to be done and go home, and told her to call the bank because I didn't agree to that in my original paperwork that I was given. She was not happy because it appears it was her mistake. It took an hour for her to correct but if I hadn't read it the consequences would have meant that I had a mortgage I couldn't afford. BTW: she wanted to be done by 6:00pm that night. It was 8:00pm when we were done. She blamed me but it was her fault for scheduling so much to do, at then not doing it.

Read everything that you sign because you will agree to things that you didn't realize if you don't.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[172pilot]

There are two issues here - One is whether or not the customer owns the drive, and the other is what happens to the data which was on the drive. In regards to hardware ownership, presumably Apple can refurbish this drive, and in doing so, is keeping the upgrade/replacement cost lower than it would be to buy a drive outright and have it installed. One test for this would be to send Apple a device without a drive in it at all, and see if Apple would install the new drive for the same price - I doubt it, as I bet Apple considers the bad drive as having some kind of "core" value. As for the sensitive data, this is irrelevant, since as soon as the device left the hands of the data owner, anyone from the mailman to the dock worker at apple who signed for the device from UPS could have spent a couple minutes getting at your data. If this is not an acceptable risk, do what the government does, and write off the dead drive as not salvagable, and destroy it rather than let it get out of your hands. You may pay a bit more for replacement parts (see above: core value) but your data is safe, and apparently this is important to you... The bottom line is that when you return your item, there is some implied contract (which you probably accpted through a EULA or in the process of obtaining the RMA), so complaining about the terms of that contract AFTER the fact doesn't make a lot of sense, and I dont have a lot of sympathy.. Learn how to replace your own hard drives, and then find a fun and creative way to destroy the old ones.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

"I work in a call center for a bank, and I don't know how many times I tell people that they signed a particular agreement binding us and them to something"

What a great point. Contracts are jointly binding. Consumers (generally) are ignorant and even when "ultra disclosure" is made, they like to plead ignorant.
I contract and obtain retail contracts for consumers for a living. I hear all the excuses, "I have a right of rescission", "I changed my mind", "I can't afford the payment", "You charged too much", "You never told me that", amongst many other (mostly lame) excuses.

  I generally tell them that I am as obligated to the contract as they are(and we don't accept returns). In addition, the preponderance of your signatures on my documentation shows full disclosure.

  We are nice and try to "work" with the customer, until it's no longer convenient (or funded.. which ever comes first) ... then we tell them to get the fuck out and thank them for letting us do business to 'um :-)

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[whoda]

You won't get your parts back if they are replaced under warranty.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Registered Coward v2]

The only reason automobile mechanics must give you a replaced part if you ask for it is so that you can get a second opinion afterwards, thus hoping to reduce fraud that tends to run rampant at some questionable automotive places where either through technician ignorance, negligence, or through purposeful managerial policy, a part is replace that does not need to be replaced.

Yes, and that's why most parts have a core charge - if you decide to keep it, you don't get that money back. In the auto business, many parts are recycled - you can buy rebuilt brakes, starters, engines, etc. There, the profit from the rebuilt product, which isn't obsoleted by a newer model since a 06 Chevy needs an 06 starter, not the newer higher RPM version from an 08 (I made that up), is enough that reusing the old part makes sense; especially since you can rebuild based on anticipated demand. You know how many cars of a certain type are on the road; when it drops low enough you stop making very many replacement; and those you have become special order (which could be build to order or from a tiny stock level).

Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold. As a paying customer, you are a part of that economic system. If you do not wish to participate, that is your prerogative, and with standardization of components, you are more than welcome to find an alternative (which ironically the consumer considered and should have pursued).

I agree. Computer parts, however, have a short lifespan. Even if your MacBook had a 40g drive and it failed after 2 years, you may find, your only replacement choice is an 80g. While newer parts may be fixed, I'm guessing most are scrapped and shipped to China to be recycled. A smart intelligence agency would be looking for ways to ID potentially interesting drives, but the sheer volume would make it tough.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Karl Cocknozzle]

I work in a call center for a bank, and I don't know how many times I tell people that they signed a particular agreement binding us and them to something. And that they should have read it prior to signing but people really don't take the time, usually five minutes, to read anything.

It is possible (even likely) that the customer DIDN'T sign anything binding them to whatever objectionable terms you're referring to... The reason for this is that banks, credit-card issuers, and other financial institutions usually bury a clause in anything signed by any customer that says something to the effect of:

"And we can change these terms any time we see fit, and are only required to inform you after the change has already happened. IF you do not accept the new terms, your only recourse is to cancel your account and stop doing business with us--which also incidentally makes 100% of any amount owed INSTANTLY due for payment. Also, you're agreeing to be bound by those new terms from the date they are implemented until you cancel your account, because by opening the account you're "pre-agreeing" to these terms taht we haven't made up yet."

And that, my friend, makes the agreement meaningless and worthless. If one party can change it AT WILL, you really don't have a contract... You have extortion. It also, literally, means that nobody can read everything... Because even when you GET informed about the changes, they don't send you the modified agreement in its entirety--they send you the changed portion. so unless you made a photocopy of the original, you are being informed of the changes to an original YOU DON'T HAVE. Once, I received an "Amended customer agreement" from a credit-card company that was one page, inded only one SENTENCE long, and it said the following:

On Page 2, Section 1 of the original, paragraph 1 sentence 2, clause 3 is hereby amended to include the phrase "And all others as we see fit."

And before you say "Well, you should have saved a copy" I challenge you to immediately produce for me every copy of every agreement you've ever signed with your creditors. If you can't, you're a rank hypocrite defending an indefensible corporate swindle.

Now, that's not to say that I don't read everything. I do, and I even make an effort to strike through patently objectionable clauses (like the one above) and initial them, but 1) Some companies will not accept modified/amended agreements and 2) I don't always see/grok all the objectionable clauses right away because I AM NOT A LAWYER. Should I really be required to keep an attorney on retainer so I can accomplish something as simple as opening a checking-account? Or getting an oil-change?

When it came time I looked, and read, every single piece of paperwork, and found that my monthly payment had an extra $300 tacked to it. I looked at the paralegal, who just wanted to be done and go home, and told her to call the bank because I didn't agree to that in my original paperwork that I was given.

Unless you are an attorney, you violated the cardinal rule of real-estate... DON'T DO A CLOSING WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY WHO REPRESENTS YOU LOOKING OVER THE PAPERS. That $300 "miscalculation" likely wasn't a "mistake." Mortgage brokers are some of the sleaziest operators around--you will not find a more wretched den of scum and villainy than their annual convention. If a layman like you spotted this "error" there were probably tons of other "junk fees" in there too that you weren't really obligated to pay... I have done about a dozen property closings over the years and I have always gotten more "junk-fees" taken off the tab than I paid the lawyer to do the closing. I have come out like $5k ahead over the last decade doing this.

Further, I'd guess since you work in a call-center, you're not very old/life-experienced just yet... Chances are they saw your DOB on the papers and decided to see how much extra they could screw you out of... Chances are the payment

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[dubl-u]

I cannot count how many times I have heard this advice, yet it bears out repeating over and over and over again - do not sign ANYTHING without reading it first. This is the person's mistake, and he willingly admits to his mistake. It is a shame that it happened at an Apple store, but to be honest, it could have been anywhere, even an automotive repair shop.

People should read the stuff, sure. It can be informative. But that's not what's in play here.

The tiny pale-gray print on the back of a form is what it will come down to when you end up in a court of law. If you think some transaction might end up in court, then you should not only read the contract, you should get a lawyer specializing in that area of law to read it carefully and translate it for you. Amateur contract lawyers are worth approximately what you pay them.

But for these simple transactions, you don't need a lawyer, because you will just say "fuck it" before you spend the money on going to court. Instead what's going on here is about a company's brand reputation, which is mostly built and destroyed outside the realm of litigation.

If some company screws you over in some consumer deal, you go to the BBB, the state attorney general, your local consumer reporter, consumer-focused blogs, and other areas where you can make a big noise. But first, you politely threaten to go there to successively higher levels of management. up to and including the board of directors.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Hutz]

Ignoring that they only claim to keep parts for warranty repairs and this wasn't one (why can't people read?), there is another legitimate reason to keep parts. I run a self-maintainer repair shop in a school with hundreds of laptops. Certain valuable parts must be returned. Things like hard drives, memory, motherboards, processors, LCDs. It would be very easy to start building extra computers if we didn't send back all the broken ones. Just start filing claims that things are broken, right?

That said, we did send a tablet to HP to get the trackpad fixed and got a call from someone a month later saying he had our hard drive with all of the teacher's files on it. HP never could explain why they took the HD out of our computer and put it in someone else's.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Cally]

Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold. I don't get this. A disk that can be recovered economically enough to be resaleable presumably only needs a reformat or suchlike. That is *not* a broken HD, it's a broken filesystem! Surely telling the customer the HD is broken and needs to be replaced implies a hardware failure, ie it's never going to work reliably again and is scrap. Do Dell,say, or other PC vendors swap out drives if NTFS gets corrupted or the OS breaks badly enough to need reinstalling?

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Cally]

This certainly isn't standard practice in the UK, IME anyway; so is this a US only thing? Sounds like that rare and precious flower, a useful law...

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[duffbeer703]

Yeah, I feel for you.

Shocking that consumers who typically don't see the contract until the very end of the purchasing process, and typically receive a copy of their 10-page contract, written in highly technical legal language on a tiny, folded piece of paper in a 3 point font don't know what they're getting into.

And if they read and can understand the contract, they find that the terms are non-negotiable, require that you agree to waive right to sue in court, and allow the vendor to arbitrarily change the contract.

So I hope your customers/victims screw you out of every dime possible.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

Manufacturers refurbish drives. When I sent a couple of non-working hard drives back to Hitachi under warranty, I got two refurbished drives back as replacements, since they aren't going to refurbish new drives they must be fixing the broken drives to use as warranty replacements. Sure Apple aren't likely to have the tech to do this themselves, but presumably they have some agreement with their manufacturers to send back the drives which the manufacturer then fixes.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Divebus]

I've had several hard drives returned to me from Apple because I ASKED FOR THEM. Even if they were replaced under warranty, I was able to "borrow" them back for a day or two to recover data. They want the ones under warranty back.

Although a computer warranty may be a year or so, the hard drives inside may have a 3-5 year warranty, so yes, they get sent back for a new one by the OEM. Hard drive makers only let the OEM do that if it's an OEM drive. Us civilians can't claim anything other than the warranty to the computer manufacturer.

What do you suppose the Chinese are doing with all those returned hard drives [pronounced "goldmines"]?

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[vijayiyer]

I have successfully made a warranty claim on a Maxtor OEM drive directly with Maxtor. At least in my case, it was possible.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Sillygates]

Thats nice for some parts, but Hard Drives should be an exception.

Unfortunately, I ran into this same problem a short while ago: http://www.joshlange.net/blog/?p=8

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Enlightenment]

Wow. You had me at "You're a rank hypocrite defending an indefensible corporate swindle." Great to know. ...Now I feel a little better about my paranoia. Maybe people are out to get me!

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Divebus]

I have successfully made a warranty claim on a Maxtor OEM drive directly with Maxtor.

I've also done that with a Maxtor from a dead LaCie external drive (LaCie=1 year, drive inside=3 year). Tried to do that with a Fujitsu from an Apple laptop and the Fujitsu web site said it was an OEM serial number - go talk to the computer maker.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

I trade stocks. Short term, and sometimes ultra-short term (minutes). I remember once, I was in a trade to make 1%. I made the trade, and went to exit. The brokerage companies servers exited part of the trade, but barfed on the remainder. Bernenke spoke, and the market plunged. I was on hold with a rep who also was unable to exit the trade. He escelated. The next person was able to exit the trade, but at the current price, which was now a 20% loss. I asked to speak to their boss. She pointed out, that even though they were in the business, that I had signed an agreement that they were not responsible for error, as a result of their computer failure. I took the loss. Instead of making $500, I lost about $10,000. Needless to say, I do not trade with that company any more.
    I recently received a letter from them stating that they did not have enough memory to accurately calculate my cost basis of my positions, which might result in future errors.
      I had also pointed out previous errors on days of extremely high traffic (Feb 27/28).
      In case you are wondering, that company is Fidelity. I probably should have pursued the server caused failded execution with the SEC, but it just wasn't worth it. I eventually recovered the money in future trades.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Shocking that consumers who typically don't see the contract until the very end of the purchasing process, and typically receive a copy of their 10-page contract, written in highly technical legal language on a tiny, folded piece of paper in a 3 point font don't know what they're getting into.

You still have to read the copy you've signed to make sure it's the same copy; my contract was 10-12 pt and fairly plain.

And if they read and can understand the contract, they find that the terms are non-negotiable, require that you agree to waive right to sue in court, and allow the vendor to arbitrarily change the contract.

We still talking about mortgages?

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Fulcrum of Evil]

But first, you politely threaten to go there to successively higher levels of management. up to and including the board of directors.

No, you start by complaining to the BOD or CEO, but offer a resolution that doesn't require court and can be handed to a subordinate.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

So whats your point?

Just made people read some stupid drivel..

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[podperson]

If the hard disk was indeed the problem, Winer should have been able to figure that out himself in about five minutes, save himself the $160 and any other headaches. Is Apple going to resell the disk without scrubbing it? Hell no -- if they did that kind of thing they'd be liable for huge lawsuits for identity theft or whatever.

Sadly, Winer is doing what he does best and, apparently, was named for. Sorry, making fun of his name is unfair.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[mabhatter654]

exactly, Apple is probably swapping out a "used, serviceable" (not guaranteed new!) part for the cost of a new one, because the "customer" warranty ran out... then claiming warranty costs against manufacturer anyway. That's probably why the PHB in charge was told to be such an ass and didn't simply correct the paperwork as Apple has an option to return parts if requested.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[nullhero]

Well, considering this is my second house and I'm a bit older than you think because the reality is I was brought up to always read anything before you sign it. Don't care who it's from if you can't take the time to read then maybe you shouldn't be buying it, or agreeing to it period.

Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple will charge more for the drive if there isn't a drive to send back. There's a "stock price" and an "exchange price" for most parts on a Mac. Hard drives are exchange parts.

Now, I work for an Apple dealer, and we do things a bit differently than an Apple Store does. If the computer is in warranty, then we follow Apple policy and ship the drive back, unless the customer wants to pay for labor and a new drive. If it's an out of warranty repair, we install a new retail drive, and hand them back the old drive. It's less expensive for the customer, we don't have to worry about customers being upset about their data being shipped back. It's also against Apple policy for us not to push the official Apple repair part, so I'm posting as AC, but I think most dealers are likely to do this, and all dealers can do it if the customer specifically asks for a non-Apple part - and saying "is there a less expensive option?" is a request for it to be offered.

Just another reason to support your independent Apple dealer and avoid the Apple Store...

Warranty no help in this situation

[turtle graphics]

This happened to me, too. In September, I had a complete hard drive crash in my MacBook. It was still under warranty, so I took it to the store, and was offered the same deal (only w/o the $160 charge). The bulk of my data was backed up, but there were some things I was worried about losing and a few others I knew I'd lost. I wanted to keep the possibility of sending the drive to a recovery firm while still getting my computer back, but Apple makes no provision for that. They insist on keeping the dead drive.

It was worth it for me to just buy a new (and bigger) drive so I could keep the old one. I still haven't decided if the lost data is worth the effort of recovery, but at least I have that option now.

Re:Warranty no help in this situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Most professional data recovery services have deals with drive manufacturers that their services specifically do not violate warranty. You should have the option of sending the drive off for data recovery, and then afterwards get a warranty replacement. Though really it's up to you to know that or find it out, especially if you're taking it to a retail store, where they may not even know that themselves.

They should give the disks back.

[posterlogo]

I've had three friends who didn't want to screw around trying to fix things themselves, and they ended up going to Apple. It didn't work out well for 2/3, and they didn't get their disks back. The thing is, I am not confident enough to mess with data recovery unless I know they feel comfortable (or desperate as the case may be, since they've already gone the "official" route). I'm certain I could have given it a good try (after all, it is actually pretty difficult to really delete data). So ya, I wish Apple had given them their "bad" disks back. I have a couple Macs myself, and all know now is that I've try every trick in the book myself before I even think about giving a disk over to Apple. They should give the disks back.

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[thegrassyknowl]

Apple can't claim the manufacturer's warranty on the disk if they can't return the failed unit after they replace it. It would be sensible if they'd charge a token fee to cover some of their costs and just return the failed disk. Of course, it's been out of his hands by just taking it to the service centre; who is to say they didn't recover some data *checks tin foil hat*.

This is why I encrypt my disks. Everything. I've been doing it for a long time and I pay a considerable performance penalty for it. As disks get faster I need faster hardware to keep up. If a disk ever fails (or goes missing) I can live (mostly) safe in the knowledge that the data on it is junk to the next person without access to my super secret key.

Why wasn't he using File Vault; it's standard and part of OSX. Sure, Apple probably have back doors but it's one step in the right direction.

Im a computer geek so I know better but...

[cyberjock1980]

I'm sure everyone here remembers the geeksquad incident with people looking for porn and trying to compile a collection of all the porn they could. Or the guy this week that got arrested because a rep at CompUSA(I think) found kiddie porn on his computer while looking for pictures to put on a DVD to test the drive they just installed. It is in the nature of some people they are going to spy on other people's drives. Especially so here in the USA. Not sure why but people seem to be addicted with getting into everyone else's personal lives.

Now, just because you got the disk back doesn't mean they didn't look over your data anyway. I always encrypt my drives completely with a FDE program. That way if it does fall into the wrong hands they can't do anything with it anyway. My personal opinion, if you don't want someone going through your drive, you should either:

1. Take it to a repair center and watch them do the repair.
2. Take it to a friend/relative whom you know won't go fishing through your stuff.
3. Learn to fix it yourself.
4. Replace it yourself and use those handy dandy backups(you did do backups right?)
5. Suck it up and accept that some minimum wage freak is gonna go through all your stuff with a fine toothed comb looking for goodies.

Now, #5 might not be a big deal if you have something like source code, they might not know enough about programming to realize what they have and how valuable it is if they wanted to use it against you. In the end, it would be great if the IT industry had some kind of checks and balances to keep everyone honest and separate those who are honest from those who are lying kniving thieves, but this is the world we live in. Until someone can come up with an effective way to keep everyone honest, FDE is needed.

Me personally.. if I had a drive that wasn't encrypted I'd value the data and the cost of the replacement drive. If losing the data to the wrong hands could cost you millions of dollars, a $200 drive isn't too much to throw out yourself and replace. If it has no real value then why not RMA it? The choice is yours, so make it a good one.

Re:Im a computer geek so I know better but...

[Anonymous Coward]

And just remember that the second Average Joe User is using FDE and brings his system into a repair shop, all his data will be gone as the first thing they will do is format the entire thing so that they can boot into whatever OS to test the unit.

Re:Im a computer geek so I know better but...

[mabhatter654]

the point is that like auto parts, return of defective parts should be systematic... not some fine print "catch" you have to ask special for. Auto repair centers did this for years, replacing OEM part with knock-offs so they could sell "originals" at higher prices, it was so bad we made laws about customers always getting their defective parts back.. in a worst case situation an auto owner could take the "bad" part to a friend to have a "second opinion" and due to the law, the mechanic has "done no wrong" because the customer has the original part, they only "stole" the value of labor.

You shouldn't have to be a computer tech to get fair computer repair, just like not everybody is car mechanics... that is this guys point! He ASKED for the drive to be returned and they refused! THAT is the point. He wasn't willing to "take their word for it".. his point was that they refused "because it's always that way".. that's a piss-poor answer, just like auto parts, customers should always get the option of returned parts as a matter of good business ethics.

Re:Im a computer geek so I know better but...

[Anonymous Coward]

5. Suck it up and accept that some minimum wage freak is gonna go through all your stuff with a fine toothed comb looking for goodies.

If they didn't pay people minimum wage and treat them like freaks reduced to # of butts in seats maybe they wouldn't behave like it.

Funny question

[jandersen]

He owned the old disk, right? Did applt buy that disk from him in any way, eg. by exchange of money? No? Then they should of course give the thing back, no doubt about it.

Re:Funny question

[mr_matticus]

He owned the old disk until the new disk was installed, at which time he owned the new one and surrendered the broken one. A condition of the installation was that installer got the old drive in the process. The user paid for a replacement unit, labor, and repair warranty (at least 90 days). Customer did not pay for the return of the old unit, the continued title to the old unit, or the continuous possession of the unit; he did not specify he wanted the old one back, did not condition his acceptance on that return, and did not ask whether he would be receiving the old unit.

If he wanted the old drive, he should have said so up front. He may or may not have had to pay extra for such an option, and they may have informed him that they did not offer the option. In such a case, he could have had the replacement done anywhere else--since he paid for it, the machine is out of warranty anyway, so there's nothing to lose by going somewhere else.

Re:Funny question

[Achromatic1978]

Then if it was a trade, where is the 80GB drive they said he'd have to purchase for $160, cause it seems to be missing out of the equation...

You don't get warranty parts back

[mrmeval]

for consumer electronics. I worked at a warranty center for 35 brands and to keep fraud to a dull roar the wanted the parts back. We'd fill out all the paperwork, stick it and the parts in a bin and wait for the field rep to audit them. Then they'd take them back or tell us to dispose of them.

I assume it's similar in other industries. It's way too easy to claim you replaced a set of brake pads or that microprocessor and not do it but get the money for the part.

Since the party paying is the manufacturer then they get the old parts back.

Re:You don't get warranty parts back

[KZigurs]

Warranty parts - yes. But what about the case where you pay for the new drive, pay for the labor (aka "service") and are not allowed to request the broken part back? Sure this also smells like fraud - charge the customer and then charge the manufacturer too?

Re:You don't get warranty parts back

[mrmeval]

That definitely would be fraud. Several local companies lost their contract because they'd tell a customer it was lightning or some other drivel and then charge them then turn it in under warranty. Yes, they were that incredibly stupid and criminal.

Sony contacted 100 percent of the warranty claims. Others did a percentage but would put a service center on 100 percent if they smelled a rat.

At least one service center got a surprise. Ever time they fraudulently billed a warranty claim they broke the law. It's kind of fuzzy if the document or every line item can be considered a seperate offense. It's wire and/or mail fraud and of course the US district attorney went for blood. Since they'd marked their computer with a code saying they'd lied. It was easy to come up with 2000+ offenses at 30 years and 250,000 fine per each offense.

Re:You don't get warranty parts back

[mabhatter654]

he paid for non-warranty repair... another caveat is that he SHOULD have paid for NEW parts, not "used serviceable" for the price. Either way it was not a "warranty" repair and he should have gotten the parts back. In fact other posters have said Apple even has an option to return user parts, the PHB just refused to offer it or we wouldn't be talking about this!

What?

[VonSkippy]

Who pays someone to replace their hard drive?

If you know which end of a screwdriver is pointy, you can pretty much swap out a hard drive. //betting the guy wears velcro trainers.

Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

This article should be tagged appl0wned.

Let's put this in perspective

[Matt Perry]

Quoting the article:

He got his supervisor. She insisted that the drive belonged to Apple, even though I had paid an inflated price to buy a new one. She showed me the language on the reverse side of the form I signed. It was even worse than she had said. There was no guarantee that the drive they had just put in my Mac was new! It might have been someone else's defective drive.

I just can't sympathize with this guy. It's always important to read and understand the things you sign. He says "I think they should tell you up front, before they do the work, that you're not getting the old drive back." yet they did tell him up front. He didn't choose to listen, or in this case read. Who in their right mind signs a legal contract without understanding, or even knowing, what they are agreeing to? My parents taught me a lot of life lessons and two that come to mind here are:

1. If you don't have an agreement in writing, you don't really have an agreement.
2. Never sign anything without having read and understood what you are signing.

Making excuses about "fine print" is just a way for lazy people to justify their laziness when it comes to reading a contract. This guy has no one to blame but himself.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[LoverOfJoy]

I agree with you to an extent, except that I hope that the contract he signed had some indication that something was written on the reverse side. There have been times I've taken the time to read through a contract thoroughly only to learn that there was something written on the other side. I've since learned to check but I think all contracts ought to have some indication that more is included on the reverse side if that is the case.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't have an agreement in writing, you don't really have an agreement.

Because of the loss of trust, handshake deals are all but dead. :(

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[mcsuper5]

There really isn't enough info in the article. You need an itemized invoice to see what he paid for.

If the tech/clerk told him he had to buy a new drive, they weren't repairing his old drive, and warranty wasn't applied. If he was told he "had to buy a new drive", they had to provide a new drive if paid. (You can sell a refurbished drive, but selling it as new would be fraudulent. I know it's done, but they really don't want to go to court over it.) If told he had to buy "another drive" or a "replacement drive" they could probably get away with a refurbished one.

For a contract to be valid, there must be consideration, so the invoice should show the price of the drive, the credit for the old drive, labor and misc fees and taxes. If the invoice doesn't show the credit, couldn't you argue that the customer had not received consideration for their old disk, thus invalidating at least that clause?

IANAL, but I wouldn't want to try to convince a judge the contract was valid, let alone applicable if the customer's invoice didn't show a credit for the drive.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[mikelieman]

Isn't burying things in "Fine Print" evidence of Bad Faith on behalf of the party authoring the contract.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[Confessed Geek]

Even if the agreement _IS_ in writing it doesn't mean squat unless you have the ability to enforce it.

I learned this one the hard way doing a closing. We had secured an agreement from the developer regarding some compensation. We had it written up and he signed it. At the closing (which the seller almost never attends) we produced the signed agreement but the attorney would not honor it with out consulting the developer who was of course not answering his phone.

That left us the options of calling the whole thing off at the last minute, taking him to small claims court, or just eating the cost.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[SeximusMaximus]

The fine print is designed to protect Apple and the technicians indeed, but when something looks inherently unfair - it usually is. This gentleman signed the contract with the intent to receive a new drive and installation. If there was a sale or a release of the old hard drive, where was the consideration? I see none. What you call lazy is really a case of a large organization hiding behind a standard boilerplate.

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[TheSkyIsPurple]

That's an excellent point.

There are many situations where the threat of dragging someone into court is just a cost factored into the dealings... They figure there's a limit under which most people will just say "Aw screw it, let's get this over with", and move on.

If you're getting involved in something important to you (and losing your data would be to me), always consider what it would take to enforce your agreement, and factor that in against what you'd be willing to do, your likelyhood of success, your tolerance, etc...

Re:Let's put this in perspective

[mabhatter654]

other posters have said Apple does have a policy to return parts upon request... the guy hadn't left the store (or finished paying), the transaction wasn't "complete" he was "requesting"!!! The whole thing could have been moot if the PHB in charge had simply re-printed the receipt per the customer's wishes and produced the drive.

It's the fact that it was so "final"... that pissed the guy off. Pointing to the fine print for an option they didn't notify him up front for. Like many other posters have said, auto shops did this for years until the law make them put a separate box on the receipt you must initial so the "details" don't get "forgot" and you the customer always are informed of your choices. The behavior of the PHB implies that they know there is the option, but management wants them to "hide" the facts from the customer ... that's FRAUD.

Astounding

[DynaSoar]

What could possibly possess someone "In an age of identity theft and other confidentiality concerns" to have a drive replaced and leave sensitive information on it?

Drawing a parallel to mechanics offering parts back doesn't apply.
If a mechanic changes disk pads, they might offer them.
If a mechanic changes a motor, they damn skippy don't offer the old one.
If Apple changed just the platter, they could offer that, but that's not how drives are changed. The entire drive mechanism and electronics is changed.

Even IF Apple (or anyone) offered the old drive back, the information has already passed through their hands, and so should be considered compromised. I can't see how that should be considered anyone's fault but the owner's.

Re:Astounding

[Fulcrum of Evil]

If a mechanic changes a motor, they damn skippy don't offer the old one.

Says who? They're required to do so.

If Apple changed just the platter, they could offer that, but that's not how drives are changed. The entire drive mechanism and electronics is changed.

Since the guy owned the drive and paid full price + labor for the new drive, how is it even Apple's to offer? If I get my brakes replaced, I still own the old brakes.

Even IF Apple (or anyone) offered the old drive back, the information has already passed through their hands, and so should be considered compromised.

This does, however, limit the scope of the breach.

This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why learning to build your own is the Jedi way. Trust no one with your data. No One.

You don't know who has your data.

[confusedneutrino]

I had an interesting experience with this several years ago. The hard drive in my parents' new HP failed, and being under warranty, they offered to replace the drive. Within 48 hours, a package arrived with a replacement. I pop it in... and it boots into Windows NT. It was an old drive of a recycled computer (or something) and had not been wiped or formatted. It was a fully-functional install of NT, complete with all of the previous user's data. Brief inspection revealed quite a bit of personal and even sensitive information still on the disk.

I called HP about it, they apologized profusely and sent yet another replacement drive (this one in factory packaging). Still, I was scared sending my mum's drive in with everything still on it, so I took an industrial magnet to it before I returned it. Not a month later, I had a Seagate external drive fail under warranty. Needless to say, I was nervous then. Nervous now.

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[bigstrat2003]

Hmm... I never said "MAC IS TEH SUCK", I said that Apple isn't serving their customers well, and should be properly shamed for it. That isn't a statement about the quality of their products, you know. What was the term you used to apply to me? I feel like it could be applied to you for your lack of reading comprehension. Oh, yes, that's it... "idiot". What an idiot. You didn't read TFA, and didn't read my post, apparently. Hey, whatever. Your time is yours to waste on unintelligent discussion.

Im in urz support center stealingz ur data

[Anonymous Coward]

Data so sensitive it can't be backed-up but can be sent to Apple...

Mod parent up

[mr_matticus]

With the small, truck-sized caveat that axiom number 1 is entirely untrue, this is good advice.

Number 1 should be rephrased to say "If you want to secure an agreement, do it in writing." As written, the converse is not true--an agreement without writing does indeed exist and has consequences all the time. It's like the mythical "it's not a contract unless I signed it" that also isn't true but will never die.

Still, unless he requested the part back up front, that drive became Apple's property as soon as the replacement was installed. Also, unless it was requested and required that the drive be returned, there's likely no way it can be recovered. It got binned with the other bad drives.

This is a simple case of whining because the customer didn't really know what the hell he was doing, when all he needed to know was right in front of him the whole time, not bound in some dusty, obscure location in an archaic form of legalese.

Re:Mod parent up

[Matt Perry]

Yeah, that didn't come out right. What my dad always says is that, "if you don't get it in writing, it doesn't mean squat." I didn't mean to imply that there can't be legal agreements between parties without having something in writing. But in general, if you don't know someone and they are promising a lot, it doesn't hurt to say "write that down and we have a deal" to see if they are serious or not. Both my dad and myself have run into numerous occasions with sales people who talk big and promise everything but then backpedal when you want to get everything documented before purchase.

DESTROY the drive

[rice_burners_suck]

If it's really sensitive information, I would send the darn thing to a professional drive recovery company that does only this (if recovery is needed) or simply destroy the drive otherwise. Why risk letting it fall into the wrong hands?

My Powerbook HDD crashed last year.

[Anonymous Coward]

My Powerbook HDD crashed last year. (Out of warranty) All I did was going to Microcenter, buy new hdd, a set of torx screwdrivers, and replace the drive myself. In less than 6 hours, my Powerbook was up and running again. The thing is that my crashed disk contains bunch of sensitive information. Even if it was under a warranty, I would have done the same thing.

If your data on HDD is sensitive, don't send it out. Don't let anyone you don't trust touch it, period.

I had a Fujitsu laptop. The laptop itself & tech support were very good on this aspect. The LCD hinge cracked, and I want to send it in for a repair. They confirmed that I can send the laptop in without the harddrive. The customer service guy even talk to their tech and called back with HDD removal instructions.

MacBook HDD = DIY Part

[feyd.rm]

Apple considers the Hard Disk Drive in a MacBook to be DIY. You will not void your warranty by replacing, upgrading or repairing whatever slides into that nice little slot. If he had such a hard time with not only the price but also the fact that they were keeping his HDD maybe he should have clicked around their support site for like 2 seconds... http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/MacBook_13inch_HardDrive_DIY.pdf ~me

Aptly named

[jpetts]

Dave Winer, huh? Sounds as appropriately named as that Sodomsky guy a few days back...

Replevin.

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

You could always sue for replevin if the hard disk is your property.

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[SvnLyrBrto]

Well, you ARE singling out Apple and bashing them for something that's pretty much standard across the entire industry. That speaks to your personal agenda, even if you were civil about it.

Oe perhaps you know of a few consumer electronics companies that DO, as standard procedure, send back the defective parts that are replaced by their warranty/service departments. I know IBM will... if you're a big iron customer, make sure it's written into your service contract, and pay them extra for the privilege. But that's not exactly their consumer electronics division (Which I don't think they even HAVE anymore.). And other than them, I've never had it happen to *me*.

cya,
john

Was Dave fucking born yesterday?

[Buscape]

They're going to resell his old drive as a refurb if they can. If privacy was a problem he should have bought a new drive.

No meeting of the minds

[etymxris]

Contracts require "meeting of the minds". And again, there was a reasonable expectation that he would be able to keep his old drive, given that he was paying way over retail for the new one. You can't impose any condition you please just by burying it under 10 pages of fine print. Imagine buying a new car and getting ready to drive off when the salesman says, "Oh yeah, the ten page contract you signed stipulates that we get to keep your old car," when nothing of the sort was mentioned before. While it is typical to get trade in value for a car you are replacing, no one is going to accept such a trade in unless it is explicitly mentioned and negotiated beforehand. Maybe you had planned to give the car to your son, or sell it yourself.

Similarly, it is typical that the trade in value of the old drive factors into the price of replacement and repair, but it must be made explicit. The exception is when replacing a drive under warranty. It is generally understood that a warranty guarantees you a working set of components, and so it would be expected that in replacing a component, the warranter keeps the broken unit to recover any possible remaining value and to discourage warranty fraud. However, this did not happen under warranty. The price for repair was much greater than the cost of typical drive, so there is no way that the customer could have reasonably expected that the $160 was based on the store keeping his old drive. I think the customer could easily win this in small claims court. He'd get his old drive and money back, and the store would get the replacement drive back. He could then his laptop to another store and renegotiate the repair of his laptop.

Re:No meeting of the minds

[mr_matticus]

And again, there was a reasonable expectation that he would be able to keep his old drive, given that he was paying way over retail for the new one. You can't impose any condition you please just by burying it under 10 pages of fine print. Moderators notwithstanding, this is simply not true.

Reasonable expectation? That a defective device would be returned without any indication to that effect? That simply does not make sense. The condition wasn't buried anywhere. It was on the back of the form he signed--less than one page, end-to-end, containing clear and plain English terms.

"Oh yeah, the ten page contract you signed stipulates that we get to keep your old car," when nothing of the sort was mentioned before. That is contrary to industry practice and therefore unconscionable. It's not the same. Industry practice here is that you get your repaired system back. There is no standard practice that involves you getting the bad parts back--it's not even standard in the automotive market. The option to request return of replaced parts exists, when you ask ahead of time. That's really the best you can shoot for here.

The price for repair was much greater than the cost of typical drive, so there is no way that the customer could have reasonably expected that the $160 was based on the store keeping his old drive. I think the customer could easily win this in small claims court. He didn't have to reasonably expect anything. A reasonable man standard is not applied to what that customer expected, but what a fictitious straw man in that position is expected to know. You are talking "honest belief" and that's simply not a factor. "Reasonable man" also applies in contracts to fill gaps and to judge jarring, surprising terms.

Neither of these things exists here. The repair form is less than a page and is consistent with industry practices--you don't "automatically" get bad parts back, ever. $160 doesn't even cover the typical labor and retail price of the job--not at $85 typical minimum labor charge and a drive with a price markup of at least 100%--you're looking at a fairly standard retail repair rate. Take it to an independent shop for a lower price, or replace the stupid thing yourself.

You don't need a "reasonable expectation" when it's spelled out in front of you. Yours is an absurd conclusion and a tragic misapplication of contract norms.

Re:No meeting of the minds

[etymxris]

It doesn't matter if it was one page or ten pages, what matters is the reasonability of expectation. For example, selling a picture of an xbox in such a way as to fool bidders into paying the price of an actual xbox, is fraudulent, even if you put the fact that it's a picture at the end of a one page description.

I've done plenty of computer repair work myself, and known many people that do such work for different places. $160 is a ridiculous sum, even including labor. The average tech makes less than $15/hr, charging $85/hr is near fraudulent. Not only this, but most of the time for a job such as this is letting the OS installer run with minimal input. So that $10-$15/hr tech is typically triple charging his time as he lets multiple machines install at once. I don't know where you heard that %100 markup is fair, but I've never heard of anyone engaging in such markup for parts used in computer repair. As far as I've seen, parts are charged the same as if the customer walked into the store to just but the drive. Taking replaced parts out of warranty, even when the customer wants them back--this is just completely new to me, and I've been in the computer field for over a decade.

In the end it would come down to what the reasonable expectation is as considered by the small claims court judge. Personally, I would feel quite confident making that case myself.

Re:No meeting of the minds

[mr_matticus]

It doesn't matter if it was one page or ten pages, what matters is the reasonability of expectation. No, it does not.

When the contract terms state the procedure fully, in a concise, non-obscure form, there is no "reasonable" gap to fill unless you're arguing unconscionability, which in turn would require indication that it is standard practice to return parts when conducting a service repair. Such is not the case.

"Meeting of the minds" is a component of the Objective Theory of Contracts. It does not fail to be satisfied because an idiot customer didn't read the terms or had unusual expectations.

It cannot be said--cannot--that the return of broken parts is customary practice on the part of retail repair establishments or that the expectation that the defective parts will be returned is typical of the course of trade. The absolute best you can hope for is a provision that the repair facility should honor an express condition to return the old parts if initiated by the customer at the onset of repair.

The practice is not unusual, was not concealed in any way, and certainly fails far below any threshold standard of unconscionability used in the law.

Your experience is with independent repairs, not large firm retail/OEM repairs. This is precisely the sort of place you should take your machine for a better deal when it's outside of warranty--something any smart customer should also know. A small repair shop charges lower labor rates and something approaching the fair market value of the drive. A vendor does neither. This is not news.

Even the Geek Squad bills out at $75 an hour. Your obtuse comment about charging the customer the price for the drive that it would cost for them to buy it in the store also shows you're not talking about a retail/OEM repair. You know how the 40GB upgrade in your laptop was $100 extra even though the drive itself is only $15 more online? That's how it works. Vendors often charge 100% or beyond on their components and upgrades--this too is a known, standard practice. Of course you're going to pay an outrageous sum for the drive and for the labor if you take it back to HP, or Dell, or Apple, or Toshiba. Still, the cost of the repair is wholly separate from the issue of the return of broken parts. Unless there is a surcharge of some sort being applied that directly modifies your understanding, it is not conventional to return parts.

The outrageous frequency of your misuse of legal terms simply goes to show a lack of expertise in the subject, as does your bizarre take on labor rates--what you pay the employee is not the sole basis for a labor rate charge.

Apple not alone. Lace screwed up too

[Anonymous Coward]

Once Lacie repaired one guys drive with another persons drive. Two external disks one had a bad power supply. The other had a dead drive. They guy with the dead drive got a used driver full of someone else's data. The guy with at bad power supply got a new drive and supply. Opps.

Tired of hearing about Apple

[syousef]

If any other company behaved like this /. users would be almost unanimously up in arms. I haven't liked Apple since my initial experiences with them in the early to mid 80s. It seems to me they're getting much more customer hostile. They certainly aren't alone but isn't it time we stopped cutting them so much slack?

Re:Tired of hearing about Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I am tired of hearing about apple too, especially when every other OEM does the same thing! He got his hard drive replaced with an apple authorized service exchange part. All manufacturers do this, IBM, Toshiba, Gateway, HP etc. I work in a service department and service all of these brands. To get around it we need to sell a customer a 3rd party hard drive and install that. If you order a service hard drive from the manufacturer of the computer it requires the bad one to be sent back, even out of warranty, or you can pay twice as much for an outright purchase. Trust me $160 is not that expensive for a service part. They are marked up really high from all manufacturers.

Re:Tired of hearing about Apple

[Achromatic1978]

That's utter crap. The Seagate 80GB HDD /retails/ at $65. You don't pay $160, as a RESELLER, for that same device that they're selling at retail for FORTY PER CENT of that price. "We'll sell these to the peons for $X. For the peons who're actually already our customers, that simply won't do, let's gouge. Let's go with $2X, hell, $3X!"

Re:Tired of hearing about Apple

[whit3]

>The Seagate 80GB HDD /retails/ at $65. You don't pay $160,
>as a RESELLER, for that same device that they're selling at retail
>for FORTY PER CENT of that price.

Ah, but the Apple store is selling a drive of three-years-ago manufacture
that was put into inventory as a warranty-spares drive, and which
was purchased when an 80G drive probably DID cost that much.

For warranty (1 year) and extended warranty (3 years) and for
some educational service contracts (5 years) the spares drives are
all stocked somewhere, and Apple protects their stock level by
pricing it all well above reasonable retail.

An Apple store employee is tied to the single-supplier Apple repair
depot for such parts. Buy your replacement drive elsewhere if
you want to see fair-market pricing. What Apple is doing is
intended for obligations to replace exactly the original, as
in a warranty repair.

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[bigstrat2003]

Actually, I wasn't aware Apple's practice was standard. I assumed that it was standard to give people their parts back if they wanted them, because that's what makes sense... hell, it's what I did back when I worked at a computer shop. If Apple's way is the standard way, then they all deserve to get punished for treating their customers like that... I simply had no idea that the industry made poor customer treatment a standard. *shrug*

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

On a tangentially related note, Macfixit was for years a great book and later website for sussing out my Mac's occasional problems. However, in the months leading up to and now following their sale to CNET, they seem more a venue of noting, even over-stating, every single possible technical misstep on Apple's part. Kinda' makes you wonder about a new unspoken agenda, one other than helping identify and address the practical Mac-user's occasional operational issues.

Macfixit was an icon, its being bought/co-opted by CNET should've been "New for Nerds" months ago. (Although a regular /. reader, I never saw it noted. Perhaps I just missed it.)

All replaced parts should be givin back!

[TavisJohn]

When I worked for a computer shop, we gave the customer all the old parts!

The only time they did not get the parts back was when they purchased and upgrade and they were trading in their old parts.

So if it is not warranty work, the customer should be givin ALL old parts back! And I feel that should go for ALL repairs, not just computer ones.

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[speedingant]

"Why wasn't he using File Vault; it's standard and part of OSX. Sure, Apple probably have back doors but it's one step in the right direction."
Because if he doesnt have a backup and his drive did happen to fail, then he looses all data anyway. Plus, filevault is buggy and slows down everything.

Hmm..

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

So, in the contract he signed to get his computer worked on by Apple, the one what said "WE KEEP YOUR OLD PARTS" he didn't see a reason to question that?

It's your responsibility as a person to make sure you actually agree with all the contracts you sign.

Re:Hmm..

[Achromatic1978]

Interestingly, and I've only seen one person mention this... that condition was on the /reverse/ of the signature page. Did that signature page mention that there were further conditions on the reverse? Usually, a "reasonable person" (an important concept under law) would expect that the signature comes at the end of the contract. Imagine being handed a piece of paper, having someone say "just read through this and sign", you doing so, and that person turning the page over and saying "hey look, more conditions you just agreed to!"

Re:Hmm..

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

It is your responsibility as an adult to READ the contracts before you AGREE to them. If he DID read it and didn't bring up his issues with certain parts, it's still his fault.

If he DID bring up the parts he didn't like and he DID try to get the contract changed to something that both he and Apple could agree to, it's STILL his fault for signing a contract he did not like.

Cannot remove HDD from iMac...

[blankoboy]

I had planned to purchase an iMac for the wife but was quite dismayed about the fact that you cannot easily remove the hard drive (only the memory). If there was a problem with the system that required sending it in for service I would certainly not send in the hard drive for the apple folks to have their way with. Data security much?

I have spoken with a few of my Mac pals about this and they didn't seem to see any problem with it but they are of the type that don't give a rat's ass about their data. I would seriously suggest that Apple allow for the hard drive to be easily removed (without voiding the warranty). I can't believe that the Apple user base aren't making a stink about this already.

Re:Cannot remove HDD from iMac...

[Typoboy]

I'm not sure about the iMac, but the Macbooks (unlike the PBG4/iBook before it) can finally take the HD out without cracking the case+voiding the warranty. Yay! However, to my dismay, apple won't accept a HD-less mac for warranty (applecare) repair. Which is too bad, because I'd be happy to just leave the disk at home, even if it means eating a charge if it turns out to be a 'software problem'. So, what it means is, whenever mac has to go to Hospital ( not too often, a few times in the many years of ownership of various machines ) I have to backup everything, wipe the disk, reinstall a basic OS. With the HD interchangeable, it does become easier to just wipe a smaller 'scratch' disk and install something on it. Sure it's hassle. But, it makes questions like this become non issues. I can say, Wipe the disk, do whatever you have to do.

It would be nice, though, if they had a way to just accept the mac w/o a disk.

As to the original issue, I don't see why they couldn't just give the person back their original disk, void the purchase of the new disk, and start over looking for a different option. Then the user could weigh their various options -- buy a disk from somewhere else, use an external, wipe/smash/degauss the original, etc... something like this

Re:Cannot remove HDD from iMac...

[blankoboy]

Wow, I did not realize that apple won't accept a system for service without a disk. Why would this even be an issue if it is not disk or OS related? Hrm....

Re:Cannot remove HDD from iMac...

[Typoboy]

They said that their procedures/accounting requires them to accept a 'whole system', so that if they have to replace everthing, they replace it as a 'whole system'. Yeah, I'd think they could just note that it was 'whole minus disk' (just like they note 3rd party RAM / HD in the first place).

It's a minor, not a major annoyance. Besides, I don't have to repair hardware that often.

Bad Apples

[tristian_was_here]

People say Microsoft are bad, but at least all they did was make crap software.

PS. I'm probably going to get -1 Troll for this...

Absolutely - Here's why

[GymW]

There are two parts involved with a disk replacement: The cost of the drive and the cost of labor. Both are incorporated into the final cost of the replacement. Since I have never had Apple replace a drive, I am not sure as to how they price it out. However Apple has historically charged a premium price for a drive. That is why, at least with towers, and other Mac's with easy accessible drives, most customers 'in the know' buy the minimum disk with the product and either 'throw it away' (perhaps by reselling it on Craig's List), or using as an auxiliary drive after replacing it with a better and less expensive unit(s). In any case, if the repair is replaced under Applecare, your screwed, as you pay only for AppleCare and not for the repair or parts. Under its policy, Apple can do just about anything it wants to, so long as they return a working machine. However if it is outside of warranty, then you should have some negotiation room. If they are charging you their going price for a drive and a fee to put it in, they they should be either returning the bad drive to you or refunding back a 'shell' fee if they insist on keeping the drive, After all it is your drive, not theirs. You should be informed of this in advance or at least it should be indicated in the fine print. If you don't bother to read the fine print, they one can argue that it is your fault. However with the way companies bury important consumer info in legal gibberish on purpose to get away with things (when did you last fully read a EULA) and shaft the consumer, you still might have a valid complaint, if the company (i.e. Apple) did not clearly state the disposition of your drive in plain obvious English. In any case if it happened to me I would seriously consider filing a complaint with my State Consumer Protection Agency and the local BBB. In any case if I was paying for the repair and drive, through Apple, and they refused to guarantee that I would have my original drive returned, (I would have recorded the SN from Apple Profiler), I would find someone else to fix it. Unfortunately large companies are not generally known for insuring that their customers personal info is protected. One of the 'scare tactics' used by companies like Apple is to put the fear of God into you by warning you that if you get an unauthorized repair done, your warranty or Applecare agreement will be voided. However if you are paying for the repair, then there is no warranty or Applecare agreement involved and they are making a useless, empty threat which you can comfortably ignore while you laugh at it. So if you are in this situation, I suggest using common sense and try and work something out with the representative before you agree to the repair. Many times you can negotiate a win-win situation. Otherwise find someone that will do the work the way you want it done. Remember it is your machine, your drive and you are the customer that is paying for it. In regards to drive costs, I bought retail 2 -500GB SATA drives for under $200 and just plugged them in to one of my MacPro's. I RAIDed them together for 1TB of space for Time Machine. If you are buying a new custom MacPro, I suggest you compare that to Apple's installed price for additional 500MB drives.

Re:Remember kids.

[pelorus]

Actually for a smart guy, Dave Winer (and Robert Scoble) seem to have terrible judgement.

First off, with going direct to Apple - retaining your disk is but a phone call away and a credit card charge. Really. Speak to Customer Services.

If you decide to go to an Apple Authorised Service Provider (disclosure: I own one) then it's entirely at the discretion of the Service Provider. They can withhold the disk and ask you to pay for the charge Apple might levy for an "official Apple part" or you can go for a "third party" disk (cos, yes, they're all third party!) and get a new disk, at retail prices AND keep your disk!

This isn't so much as a YRO item as a "Why didn't you ask for your disk back when you handed over the machine" item? Shouldn't Slashdot have a Bozo Alert category?

Dude, this is a MACBOOK...

[nweaver]

I've yet to find a system which is easier to change the drive on than a MacBook...

Three screws and the drive carrier slides out. Four Torq screws to move the carrier to a new drive. Pop the new drive in and go. I know, I just upped mine from 80 to 160 GB.

Its the kind of repair which should never have been sent in at all, either a Do It Thyself or do it in a shop, as it really is a 5 minute job.

Re:Dude, this is a MACBOOK...

[Zathras26]

That's what I was thinking, especially since I did the same thing on my own MacBook a few months ago. That having been said, however, on Thinkpads, it's even easier -- the drive slides out of an externally-accessible bay, all you have to do is remove one screw and then you can replace it the same way you'd replace a PC card.

Re:Dude, this is a MACBOOK...

[stewbacca]

I didn't read the TFA, but what about those people who don't want to void their warranties? Or is it THAT wrong to not know (or care) how to do what you described?

SHOCKING!

[sgant]

Dave "Whiner" complaining about something Apple did! (that is, when he's not patting himself on the back for inventing everything on the Internet)...SHOCKING! Stop the presses!

This guy isn't an industry pundent like Dvorak...he's suppose to just be a developer. Just about every decision that Apple has made in the past 20 years has been commented on by him as gloom and doom for the company.

Re:SHOCKING!

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy isn't an industry pundent like Dvorak...he's suppose to just be a developer "Just" a developer? I'd put a developer about 2 million rungs further up the ladder than "an industry pundit like Dvorak". A developer at least theoretically does something useful some of the time.

Re:SHOCKING!

[sgant]

Ok, granted...but my point is that he's been wrong about every decision that Apple has made. He was complaining about how they when with their own in-house scripting language instead of taking his. Said they were wrong for making clones...said they were wrong when they cancelled the clones. Said they were wrong when they went from 68000 to PPC...said they were wrong when they went from PPC to Intel...said they were wrong when they went with NeXT....said they were wrong with OS X blah blah blah. He's proclaimed Apple dead and buried so many times it's hard to take this guy seriously anymore.

He's still pissed that they made Applescript instead of buying/licensing Frontier from him all those years ago I think.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[Anonymous Coward]

>Apple can't claim the manufacturer's warranty on the disk if they can't return the failed unit after they replace it.

If the drive was under warranty, then why did he have to pay?

dealing with sensitive data

[Anonymous Coward]

If your willing to switch systems and go to a certain amount of trouble in the interest of security consider trying the following steps: 1. buy Scott Mueller's Upgrading and Repairing PCs [latest edition]. 2. get Linux which to my knowledge is the only os that will allow you to build an isolated system [ie: not hooked up to the net] 3. never hook your device up to the net 4. avoid wireless anything in relation to your secure development platform; this includes but is not limited to: wi-fi, bluetooth, wireless keyboards/mice/routers, etc. 5. use a second [unsecured] system to download any updates/newer software versions that you need then burn those to a cdr or dvdr [never use a thumb drive or other writable media] then after burning never let those disc come back into contact with the unsecured system since despite being read only it is possible for spy ware to write to the cdr/dvdr via stealthed multi-session 6. remember that though step 5 will prevent spy ware from being able to send data back to base these steps will do nothing to protect you from a data destruction/corruption virus or other downloaded nasties. 7. make frequent backups of your data on to cdr/dvdr especially before installing updates. 8.do any hardware replacement yourself

Give the disks back

[joaommp]

If a company would keep the replaced parts in Portugal, it would be in a lot of trouble. The owner/attending employee would either be hospitalized or the company would end up in court. Or both.

Never Give Away A Disk

[gig]

Once you write data to a disk you should never give it away to anyone. Period. If you're turning a machine in for servicing, take the disk out. If the disk itself is bad, then just replace it from your own pocket, which typically will cost less than $100 no matter what computer it is. Once you take the internal disk out of a computer, it becomes a generic item that you can safely service or replace.

No problem here. This is Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course Apple's attitude is defensible. Everything that Apple does is defensible. Apple is always to be worshipped, honoured and obeyed.

But if Microsoft retained peoples' hard drives, that would be prima facie evidence of a conspiracy to remove your freedoms and sell your children into slavery. That's just common sense.

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[happymark]

I was required to give the Admin password, when I sent my Macbook for a warranty service (hard drive failure). Isn't this defeat the purpose to have File Vault turn on?

Whine whine

[Anonymous Coward]

As if having to pay $160 to replace a failed 80-GB drive wasn't bad enough

Oh give me a break. It's a 2.5" sata drive. It's not like it's a 500GB 3.5" unit. The 2.5" drives are more expensive normally. Plus, he paid for someone to replace it for him. He could have always bought his own drive, replaced it himself, kept his old drive. Of course, then he wouldn't have a reason to whine on his whinyblog and submit it to slashdot/digg/reddit. I hope he's got good ad revenue from this faux-complaint.

Paranoia

[eiapoce]

I know this souds paranoic, but my passwords, vital documents and logins are cripted on any machine I own. This way when my backup harddrive was fucked up and going to assistance I didn't have to worry too much on this issue.

BTW I wrote on that on epinions and got a very rought feedback from the "advisors" team...

Apple *does* give back replaced disks

[deja206]

At least in Turkey they do.

I had the failed HDD on my PowerBook G4 replaced, and all my data recovered about a year ago. They charged me almost nothing for data recovery, since they recovered my data without asking for my permission first (which I would have given anyway, but they forgot to ask me =)).

So for $100-something I got a brand new 120 GB drive with all the data from my dead HDD on it, and my old HDD back. I don't know if there's a Turkish law that says replaced parts must be returned or if this is just a company policy, but when I take my car for a repair, they always ask me if I want the replaced parts back.

P.S. WOW! First comment in over 3 years.

Re:Remember kids.

[neillewis]

Put some money aside for the fallout of the class action suit when someone's data gets into the wrong hands. This is a stupid way to treat your customers.

I got mine back when I asked for it

[PetrusMagnusII]

I have an older PowerBook and had to get he hard-disk replaced out of warrantee after I dropped my PowerBook off the table.

When I turned it in at the Apple store for service they gave me the standard warning that my data may be lost (may be? the drive is being replaced). I said I just wanted the drive, and that I would get the data off it myself which they promptly refused. I asked why, since I paid for the drive when I bought the computer, it's mine, not theirs. He said that's the way we do things, and I told him that's the way a criminal does things and started to pack up my stuff to go somewhere else for service. Wait, he says, I'll see if we can lend you the drive after service is done, but I won't know until you come back to get it. Fine.

I go back to get my computer with a new drive in it when they tell me it's done, and immediately asked about the drive. They had it ready for me in a nice box and everything. They never said anything about me having to give it back, and I've never received a call for it back over a year later today.

I still haven't dissected the drive to try and get the data off, but I was glad in principle that I got the drive back.

Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Did it ever occur to anyone that Apple might need the defective drive to claim warranty by their suppliers (Maxtor, etc) ?

Ever hear of a core charge?

[nurb432]

If you want your old part back, it costs you. You shouldn't get it back for free. Its how the automotive world works too.

Stupid move on Apple's part.

[rindeee]

Let's suppose for a minute that this drive is from a doctors computer. On this drive are a couple of patient files that Doc has been updating after doing rounds. In doing what they're doing, Apple is at least taking on liability under HIPAA (if they're planning on doing destruct) and at most they may be violating HIPAA. Not smart Apple. I can think of half a dozen scenarios off the top of my head where various regulations come into play that could easily burn Apple in this. Oh well...

Offtopic, but...

[Gordonjcp]

Wait, what? You replace the calipers as well as the discs and pads? Isn't that a bit expensive and time-consuming?

Re:Offtopic, but...

[edward2020]

That's what I was thinking. I just use some c-clamps to keep the calipers open and change the pads that way. Maybe he doesn't have c-clamps...

Re:Offtopic, but...

[Gordonjcp]

Yeah. I actually have a tool I made for pressing the rear caliper pistons back so I can change the rear pads without splitting the caliper, so all I need to do is pull the little bolt that goes through the eye at the back of the pad, pull the old ones out, knock the pistons back, and pop the new ones in. A set of rear pads takes literally 10 minutes per side. I need to split the front caliper anyway to get get the pads out (the caliper is in two halves with a rubber seal for the port to the "outer" pistons), so obviously the fronts need bled and it's a bit more involved. Including doing the handbrake adjustment I can do the front brakes in about an hour and a half if I don't stop for teabreaks too often ;-)

Stuff paying someone to change my brakes. I'll do them myself, in a couple of hours, and I know they're right. It wouldn't be any quicker to take the car to a garage.

Re:Offtopic, but...

[zakezuke]

Wait, what? You replace the calipers as well as the discs and pads? Isn't that a bit expensive and time-consuming? $25x2 is what it costs me above and beyond the cost of the pads.

I expect to spend $100-$150 for

1. A pair of pre-loaded rebuilt calipers
2. Rotor turning
3. misc cleaners, fluids, etc... etc...

This is something in my last car, and I would do this between 75k and 100k. I could do the job for 1/2 the price if I didn't go for pre-loaded calipers and rotor turning, but given I'm not very likely to keep a car much beyond 300,000 miles, we are talking and extra $300 for the lifetime of a vehicle.

DIY

[bkr1_2k]

Replacing disks isn't particularly difficult. Save yourself the $180, look online for some instructions and do it yourself. It takes about half an hour if you've ever done it before and maybe an hour and a half if you haven't.

Bulk purchase contracts

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a place that gets such a deal. We pay according to the number of failed drives we return, with the contract specifying an acceptable failure rate. The discount we get for this is reasonable (acceptable failure rate is based on time since drives delivered; from one batch, our contract allows a total of 25 failing in the first year, 50 failing in the first two years, and 100 failing in the first 3 years, for around 10% off wholesale price), but escalates rapidly if drives start failing (once we're up to 250 drives failed in three years out of a batch, we don't pay at all).

We still have to return failed drives to get our discount to go up, and there are penalty clauses in place to prevent us returning working drives, or drives not bought through this scheme. We're also obligated to return drives in batches of at least 100, reducing the manufacturer's handling costs.

So, although we're providing the warranty, we have an incentive to retain faulty drives and return them to the manufacturer.

Re:Bulk purchase contracts

[Forge]

Wow. Interesting. I never knew that.

HP ships disks with previous owners data..

[johu]

Couple years ago HP sent me replacement disk for NC6000 laptop after old one died. Disk they sent was in sealed package and looked like new. However when I installed it to laptop and turned power on there was some odd boot-loader present. Little more investigating with recovery tool revealed previous owners files among diagnostics report showing serial number of computer disk was previously used. There weren't much files on disk, but enough to reveal name of company in Asia that had sent it back to HP for warranty work. Disk itself was just fine so it looks like HP ran some tests and repackaged it after passing tests but didn't wipe old files. Previous owner probably just had corrupt OS install or some other hardware problem incorrectly diagnosed as harddisk fault.

I complained to HP and included all serials and information about previous owner so they could check what went wrong with their warranty process. They weren't interested and just said they're very sorry and disks are usually wiped. Further they also said there's no way for them to track history of spares sent nor check computer warranty history based on serialnumber. It's pretty clear that they can do both, but just don't care. Great, so when I send broken disk that I can't wipe myself back to HP they might fix it and forgot to wipe and it's no problem.

Hrm

[scubamage]

Does it make as much sense to give back a failed drive though? With a car, getting back a core (a failed part) makes some sense because with a little bit of machining knowledge you can remachine it and turn it into something usable. With a hard drive, you'd need an anti-static clean room, and a whole lot of advanced degrees to get anything even remotely usable off of the drive. I understand the privacy concerns, but it doesn't seem to have a lot of practical purpose to give back the drive. My main concern would be privacy however most companies tend to destroy the devices, or run them through a degausser.

Receipt

[fireheadca]

We we see a copy of the Apple agreement but what did this guy
actually pay for?

Let's see the receipt.
Did he pay for warranty replacement?
Or did he pay for immediate service?

If you replace anything under warranty then usually labour and parts are free.

If his system is out of warranty then the $160 fee seems nominal - it is
Apple after all.

---
Kermit the Frog is my Girlfriend too.

Under Automotive Repair

[fast turtle]

Laws, mechanics are required to return the old parts as proof they've been replaced (anti-fraud measure).

In regards to hard drives that fail, the only option that comes into play now is the usage of disk/file encryption such as truecrypt. So use encryption for those sensitive files and data instead of leaving them wide open.

Broken iPod Exit Plan

[DrScottyB]

So, the best option if your iPod fails is to just burn it (or blend it)! If Apple is going to charge you extra money to ship the old drive, with your personal information on it, back to you and they have no intention of ensuring you that your information will be protected...just distroy the iPod. Hell, with the price for the repair and the return shipping of the drive you might as well have bought a new one. Is it worth your identity to save a few hundred dollars?

Re:Broken iPod Exit Plan

[compulsiveguile]

I don't know how much info is really on an iPod unless you've used it as an external drive... right? But I definitely feel your pain in regards to iPod repairs. I have never been more furious with a company in my life. Conveniently my iPod's drive died just weeks after the warranty expired. When I found out how much repairs were going to cost, I figured why buy a hard drive for $150+ when I can get the new video iPod for a bit more? My friend suggested buying a drive online and doing it myself. Sounded brilliant so I went bidding, got a drive, and popped it in my iPod. Bad move... (Just so ebay doesn't get a bad rep or whatever, the guy offered a full refund if the drive didn't work).

My iPod still didn't work, so I figured I could take the iPod to the Apple Store (I have an hour drive to get to one, mind you). To make sure I wasn't driving up there for no reason, I explained my problem to an Apple rep on the phone. They told me to bring it down, and they'd take care of it. After waiting for a half hour or so, the tech guy called my name. I walked to the counter optimistically, and handed him the iPod. He told me my drive was bad, as expected, and I pulled out the other drive to ask him about it. He looked at it disapproval. I asked if he could at least test it for me or something. He asked me if I had taken the iPod apart ever, and I had to answer with an honest "Yes, I did." He looked at me as if I had just handed him the plague. He set the iPod on the counter immediately, and basically told me it might make a good paper weight. I argued to no avail, and ended up selling my dead iPod on ebay in case anybody needed parts. *sigh* a mere $50 for a $300 electronic device... have to love the tech industry.

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting this reply AC in order to avoid the obvious liabilities.

I work for an Apple store and to the best of my knowledge, we have no recourse with regard to customer's who want their drives returned. It's just not an option. On top of that, we won't even work on computers, in or out of warranty, that have a 3rd-party hard disk installed. YMMV.

If you need to bring in a computer that has sensitive data on it, my reccomendation to you is this: back up EVERYTHING you might need from the drive and use Disk Utility to securely erase the drive. You're pretty much boned if the drive has failed. If you're really this paranoid I would reccomend not storing this type of data on your internal hard disk; at this level, you are being paranoid, no matter what you've been told/think. No one at Apple or Apple's partners has any desire/motive to recover data from your failed hard disk.

I do not personally agree with this policy; however it is what it is and this policy has stood up to legal trials before (believe me, I know).

Sensitive information? HELLO....?!

[MindPrison]

Why on earth would you send it to them if the information where so sensitive, as for getting the disk back - I can certainly understand and appreciate your woes, but if you really did have sensitive business information in there you'd better re-evaluate its worth if you are weighing this up against 160 bucks. I'd just buy a new HD and get my older disk checked up with IBAS or some other harddisk-recovery organization if my information was that valuable to me. I would NEVER - EVER - send business sensitive information, development papers, blueprints etc. into any repairman etc. I know this is Apple...but an Apple repairman is just like any other repairman - no one of these can keep a too-good-to-hold-secret true unless their morals are WAY above human nature (do you believe in this...or translated --are you naive enough to trust your data to just any nameless repairman? If you are - then your data isn't worth more than 160 bucks...sorry to say). Reality check!

Re:Remember kids.

[Professor_UNIX]

If you really have something sensitive on your drive then they should be using Filevault or create an encrypted disk image. Apple gives them the tools and if they're too ignorant to take advantage of them then that is their own problem.

this Sh1t's me about apple warranty work

[marxz]

Working at a university I look after 60 or so Macs most of them with important and/or confidential stuff like exams and research data on them.
When ever an Apple computer starts to display signs of a dying hard drive I make sure it's backed up before it goes in for warranty work and if I have time I'll do a 7 pass erase and install a new OS (though I've had drives die during the install, the erase, and even during the backup (in which case we fall back to our backups system)).

Unfortunately many of my academics and researchers decide to bypass their IT department and take their machines straight to the on campus Apple service center (not helped by the fact that they are closer than the IT department (the Apple center is about 30 meters from their building we're about 100 meters) . Of course they never get their disks back, I don't know how many hours I've spent on the phone to Apple trying to get them to send the disks back or to guaranty secure destruction, in every case with out success. For some reason it's us that the academics get shirty at! Buh sorry bud, but we're not Apple so not our fault.

How do we fix this?

[SanityInAnarchy]

I've been asking this for awhile, never really able to come up with an answer...

The problem is, essentially, legalese has become too complex. I actually have, as part of my insurance, the ability to contact a lawyer for 30 mins consultation about anything -- they see it as a loss leader, in case I get hit with something big -- but that's probably enough for me to email (or fax) an EULA for them to interpret for me.

But it's to the point where it bothers me as much as taxes. Every citizen is required to pay taxes, but taxes are so complex that you really need a specialist -- thus, H&R Block.

In very few instances, it works. The GPL, for instance, is perhaps too long, but is written in text which is both human-readable and legally valid. Creative Commons has simple "deeds" which explain, in almost less than a paragraph, what that license is about, with a link to the absurdly long legalese which essentially says the same thing.

Essentially, I would like that 8 euro headset to have a document which I can read in less than two minutes, maybe less than five, and understand without being a lawyer -- if, indeed, it contains an EULA at all. But I'm not at all sure how to turn that into a law requiring it.

Re:How do we fix this?

[Al Dimond]

How do we fix this? That depends on who exactly you mean be "we". We slashdot readers can talk about laws we'd like to see passed, but lawmakers are more likely to listen to companies whose lawyers draft long EULAs than us.

One thing that I do routinely is actually read contracts put in front of me. Especially if someone is waiting on me. People waiting sometimes get annoyed or impatient, but I explain that I like to know precisely what I'm agreeing to when I sign my name.

I've never actually walked out without signing a contract because I found its terms unreasonable, even when I thought some of them were stupid. My dad did once, though. He was buying a car, and the guy in the office was putting papers down in front of him, one after the other. One was an arbitration agreement. Most people wouldn't know what it meant or its significance, but as a lawyer he did. It meant something like agreeing to take any complaint against the dealer to arbitration rather than court, and of course the arbiter would belong to a group appointed by businesses and not consumers (I think there's a fair case that something must be done to cut down the cost of lawsuits, but impartiality is necessary; this isn't a topic I'm personally an expert on, and it's just a tangent). When the dealer wouldn't let him buy the car without signing he walked straight out.

Either you've got recoverable data or not...

[Glasswire]

There's only two cases here and neither depends on Apple:

1) Sending the drive to Apple is silly if a wonky drive contains data you really need - you want to send it to a professional recovery facility like OnTrack or others -and they'll certainly send you the pieces of your drive back (along with DVDs or other drive with your data) after they've taken it apart and recovered the contents you need. (This isn't cheap, but when you really need it...) Then do step 2) and send the parts to Apple.

2) If you don't have data you need to recover, but want to keep data secure, put snap the broken drive onto a big industrial magnet for a day or so. The drive should be devoid of data at that point and you can ship it to Apple. (Probably should let Apple know you did this or their diagnosis about what's wrong with your drive will be quite different than your original complaint :-) )

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[Anonymous Coward]

apple fanboys are so predictable in how they react to any criticism of apple, justified or not.

Re:Remember kids.

[SanityInAnarchy]

True, but at the same time, you really shouldn't have to.

On my laptop, I encrypt everything I can, because that can be stolen. On my desktop, I don't. Fortunately for me, neither machine is a Mac, and with my desktop, I would probably just have someone drill holes in the drives before buying replacements.

Your responsibilities are NOT transitive

[gelfling]

If you are legally required to protect data and you give that device to someone else your responsibilities don't transfer to that third party.

The Bigger issue though is cost. Apple or anyone should give you a small rebate if they keep your drive.

Removing a Mac hard drive is a snap?

[Zaphod-AVA]

I don't know what kind of Mac you have, but the latest Macbook has the easiest drive replacement Apple has ever made. This means removing 24 screws, (not counting the rubber drive mounting screws)completely removing the top cover of the machine, and disconnecting several ribbon cables. Older ones are a complete nightmare.

www.ifixit.com

While this may be a 'snap' compared to other Apples, it's a far cry from the one bolt and pull the caddy designs standard on other laptops.

Re:Removing a Mac hard drive is a snap?

[Zathras26]

I have a Macbook, and I don't remember having to go thru that when I replaced my hard drive. You remove the battery, undo three or four screws (IIRC), remove a metal cover, and pull the old hard drive out. Put the new hard drive in and reverse the procedure. Done. It took me less than ten minutes. I may be overlooking a few screws -- it's been a while -- but I definitely did not have to disassemble any portion of the case or deal with any ribbon cables. You may be thinking of the older laptops. Hard drive replacement on those *was* a major league nightmare.

Re:Removing a Mac hard drive is a snap?

[giminy]

From the website you sent, here are the instructions, which back up what I've stated:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/MacBook-Core-Duo/Hard-Drive-Replacement/86/5/Page-1/Battery

You're probably thinking of a macbook pro, which I agree has a PITA installation procedure (hence it's definitely worth the $160 to replace the drive, even for geeks like us). The original author said that he had a 'black macbook', and I can only assume that this means a non-pro model (which has the very easy and straighforward removal process linked to above).

Reid

Re:Removing a Mac hard drive is a snap?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what kind of Mac you have, but the latest Macbook has the easiest drive replacement Apple has ever made. This means removing 24 screws, (not counting the rubber drive mounting screws)completely removing the top cover of the machine, and disconnecting several ribbon cables. Older ones are a complete nightmare.

I assume you're limiting yourself to portable Macs, because for example the Mac Pro takes approximately thirty seconds to add or replace a drive and involves a total of four screws, all of them holding the drive in place.

But even when it comes to portables, you are wrong. The titanium PowerBook was extremely easy when it came to drive replacement. You removed something in the neighborhood of 8 screws to take the bottom cover off, removed maybe two more to get the drive out, and disconnected the ribbon cable. Then perform the reverse with the new drive. Not as easy as certain PC portables but pretty simple overall.

The reason they don't make them as easy to replace as they are in PC portables is the same reason there's no user-serviceable battery in iPods and iPhones: such things add weight and take up space. When you're in a market there weight and space are at a premium, optimizing those at the cost of making a rarely performed maintenance procedure slightly harder is generally a good thing.

If you want to see a bad hard drive replacement, try an original-model clamshell iBook. Even with precise step-by-step directions complete with photographs it still took me three hours from start to finish, and resulted in the permanent death of my trackpad because I had neglected to disconnect a thin ribbon cable before pulling out a part, and the thing just ripped in two without offering even the slightest resistance.

160 bucks for an 80 gig drive?

[Chas]

Uh no. They essentially (over)charged this person for a brand new hard drive. At that point, the old drive WAS STILL HIS PROPERTY. As such, they needed to return it.

From an Apple service tech...

[v1]

I've replaced maybe 250 HDs for Apple, and of those, about 18 have been sent to drivesavers. If you ship your computer TO apple to get it repaired, they will replace the HD if they believe it's bad. (even if that's not why it's being sent in, so back up your data!) Apple will also often refuse to repair a computer with "missing modules" such as HDs. I personally find this annoying with respect to macbooks. I would like to be able to send a macbook in for say, a bad logic board, but remove the HD prior to shipment to insure apple does not replace it. Sometimes they flat out refuse to repair the laptop if you send it in without the HD. (presumably becaue it may be involved with the problem you're sending it in for?)

If you take it to an AASP (apple authorized serivce provider) you can have them ship the HD to drivesavers for data recovery if necessary prior to shipping to apple. We also offer the service of backing up the contents of the HD prior to doing a mail-in repair. (the time for which is not covered under warranty, and you will get charged again if a restore is required)

It's not unreasonable or even uncommon for a manufacturer to keep all "modules" replaced, be they hard drives, power supplies, motherboards, or whatever. The only modules apple is not interested in having returned are cheap cosmetic ones. Sometimes they even change their minds. I'll find that a part they wanted back they no longer want back, or sometimes I'll find a part they didn't used to want back they do now. Macbook top cases (which include the keyboard) used to be NRET (non return) but are now returnable. I'm guessing it's not a matter if them wanting them back, but that they are trying to discourage AASPs from fraudulently ordering them as a method of obtaining free stocking parts. (you could file a false warranty claim on a top case, and not have to send anything back, so you could just shelve it or sell it)

If you are worried about sensitive information on your HD, hit it with a bulk tape eraser before shipping it in. If you are interested in data recovery, send it to drivesavers (or total recall, there are several that apple allows to open their drives) before shipping to apple. Otherwise, what you get should not come as a surprise.

The only drawback to this system is that if your laptop is say, a week from leaving warranty, there may not be time to send to drivesavers and get it back before you can start the repair before it leaves warranty. I'm fairly sure if you talked with apple you could get a waiver on that though, they've got a pretty high "customer satisfaction" level they try to maintain.

refurb drives with data and OS intact.

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work at an authorized service center that serviced IBM, Compaq, HP, (I am using names so i post AC). Anyhow, so many times we would get refurb drives fresh from the factory that we would take out of the shrink wrap and plug into a computer we were servicing only to find that the computer would boot up right into someone's operating system complete with desktop background of dogs and kids.

Moral:Never Never Never send a hard drive back to the factory with any data on it that you would not like the entire world to see.

Re:Remember kids.

[Cally]

This isn't so much as a YRO item as a "Why didn't you ask for your disk back when you handed over the machine" item? Shouldn't Slashdot have a Bozo Alert category? If you refer to the fine article you'll see that that's exactly what he did. The vast majority of Apple owners who take their machines to a service centre when it breaks are, by definition, paying for an expert to fix it; they're very very likely to nod smile sign and not really see a problem (so long as they have backups, of course.) To be fair this is just one specific example of a problem with media disposal when so much personal data is on end-user computers of all sorts. The stuff happening in the UK in the last month about loss of child benefit, drivers' license and now NHS medical records is, hopefully, going to kick the ball rolling in the private sector too. I'm sure this sort of thing happens all the time, everywhere. Public sector orgs are not uniquely inept, they're just obliged to start reporting it. (I've no idea *why* they've just started publicising it... there's no new law. Perhaps they're just enforcing the DPA now, under the new Brownite Politburo.

This happened to me. But...

[sugapablo]

..I had the Apple "Genius" grab a magnet from the back room and, in front of me, wipe it all over the HD. He was very cool about it, understood perfectly, and was more than happy to do it for me.

Re:This happened to me. But...

[timeOday]

I'll bet that magnet didn't do a thing.

My profit would be 100% of the sale price.

[Chas]

Possibly more. Depending on the value of the data on that drive.

Re:This happened to me. But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Guaranteed. I've tried that experiment with small and large handheld magnets, and finally an AC-powered bulk tape demagnetizer. It didn't affect the data in the slightest.

Winer surcharge

[sakusha]

I suspect that Dave got the "whiner surcharge" that many techs apply to customers who act like assholes. He could have replaced his drive by himself, but instead, chose to pay extra for a speedy Apple replacement (remember, Winer is a multi-fucking-millionaire, he can afford it). Then he gets all pissy at the repair techs. This is exactly how NOT to get cooperation from the techs. If Winer wasn't such an asshole, and if he didn't go out of his way to prove that to the techs, they might have found a way to return his drive. But he was an asshole that clearly couldn't be satisfied, so they didn't bother. As the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Re:Winer surcharge

[Anonymous Coward]

As the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." http://www.xkcd.com/357/

Re:Winer surcharge

[falconwolf]

If Winer wasn't such an asshole, and if he didn't go out of his way to prove that to the techs, they might have found a way to return his drive. But he was an asshole that clearly couldn't be satisfied, so they didn't bother. As the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

How do you know he was an asshole? Were you there?

Falcon

Re:Winer surcharge

[sakusha]

How do you know he was an asshole? Were you there?

I don't have to be there to know how Winer acts, I know him and have worked with him, and Winer is always an asshole. He wrote at length on this very subject, describing how he acted like an asshole to the Apple techs.

Re:Winer surcharge

[falconwolf]

I don't have to be there to know how Winer acts, I know him and have worked with him, and Winer is always an asshole. He wrote at length on this very subject, describing how he acted like an asshole to the Apple techs.

Ok, you know him then. My mistake and I apologize.

Falcon

Yeah - happened to me

[Anonymous Coward]

A few years ago I had a faulty laptop and sent it back to the vendor (Gateway) for warranty repair.

I also asked them if they could upgrade the drive and _specified_ _in_ _writing_ that I wanted the original one back (it still worked fine, it was just a bit small).

They didn't do it. All I got back was the laptop with a new drive.

It took me several days of argument before they caved and admitted that they couldn't locate the original because it had gone back on the shelf in their service department for use repairing someone else's machine.

To their credit they did send me another drive (new) in accordance with my original request.

However, I was very surprised (read disgusted) that they would explicitely agree to an arrangement to return my drive, renege and then try to fight me over it. Fortunately, I backed it up beforehand and didn't lose data, but I doubt they did much to wipe it before giving it to someone else.

Dell already does this

[psych-major]

If you need a warranty replacement of a hard drive, all you need to do is tell the support person that there is sensitive data on the old drive and it cannot leve your posession. They will gladly tell you to go ahead and keep it, and personally dispose of it in whatever manner you deem appropriate. Also, if you Dell is going in for non-hard drive related repairs, they will remind you to pull the hard drive and send the computer in without it.

Read the fine article, friend.

[argent]

He didn't "send it to them". He carried it to the Apple store, gave the laptop to the guy to diagnose. The tech said the drive was bad, replaced it not under warranty, and refused to give him the drive back.

He PAID the $160, straight up. There's no question of this being a warranty situation where he was trying to avoid paying for the drive. He needed his laptop working and had *no idea* that Apple was going to do this. Why would he expect that... this wasn't a warranty drive replacement, this was a drive he was flat out buying.

Re:Read the fine article, friend.

[MindPrison]

No matter, carried, sent, delivered - it still goes into the repairshop in the back. I absolutely agree that he should get his original drive back straight up, but still - I would never bring sensitive information to untrusted sources. Heck...most places I've worked have a strict IT policy - no harddisks, usb drives, pendrives, cellphones leave the premises under any circumstances because of the danger of industry espionage, and that my friend - is very real, even in a small 10 man company that turns around millions and make a living of innovations - can't really afford risking this. We have it personnel that separate private computers from work computers and the private computers are NOT allowed at work (well not my current position, but thats irrelevant) but my previous workplace, they even had their own screened it specialists that would take care of ALL issues and where qualified service personnel even by most IT companies we bought computers from, same reason - you do NOT bring sensitive data with you to the repairshop - period! If you do - you either trust these people with your job, career, money and everything you hold dear (hope its your friend) or the stuff you're carrying aint all that hot.

Re:Read the fine article, friend.

[argent]

Yes, most large companies have their own support guys, and I've had the fights with accounts receivables over paying for replacement drives instead of getting them replaced under warranty, too, but if someone's getting his laptop repaired at an Apple Store he's NOT working at a place that has that kind of resources, and he's not a security geek, and at least he's aware of the problem... compared to most of the non-security-geek people I've worked with, including people working on software where that matters, he seems ahead of the pack to me.

If the stuff on his disk was as critical as you're talking about, I would expect it to be encrypted, but that's a whole other ball of flames.

And for that matter I've taken my computer to retail outfits for warranty repair, and I haven't had them get in a tizzy over them working on it where I can see them, or my removing the hard drive ahead of time. When I took my Macbook to the Apple store for warranty replacement of the hard drive I had already wiped it and had to boot it from an external drive to show them the SMART output, and they didn't have a problem with that.

So having them right at the end refuse to give the drive back when it's not a warranty return, that's not expected and not anticipated and if I'd actually paid for the new drive I'd be pissed that they hadn't given me the old one back even if the most important data on it was my music collection.

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a question. Why did you pluralize "customers" with an apostrophe but not "drives"? Shouldn't you also write drive's? What is it with the apostrophe pluralizing? And even worse, why aren't you consistent? The mind boggles. Or boggle's. I don't kno'w.

Wait

[sigzero]

He does have the option of getting the drive back. You have to say that up front though. They aren't going to just send it back because that is an extra expense.

If you want something done right

[Anonymous Coward]

do it yourself. it is really easy to replace the drive in a mac on your own, and a hell of a lot cheaper. its just kind of stupid to pay them to do it (and to pay their exorbitant prices for what is nothing more than a commodity hard drive).

and yes they should have given him back the hard drive, but they will probably wind up refurb'ing it and pawning it off on some other unsuspecting sucker for $300.

slashdot needs a new tag

[jonpublic]

slashdot needs a whiner tag. it seems like we get a couple of these each month, where people are outraged over some injustice that on closer inspection is the person posting being an idiot and making a series of bad decisions.

this dude is an idiot, but i still bet apple gets him his drive back somehow because of all his whining.

This happened to me...

[Wonderkid]

...My Macbook hard drive crashed due to a KNOWN fault with the drives, although I did not know it was a known fault at the time. Apple refused to replace the drive unless I sent it to them - despite me getting an Applestore to validate the drive had crashed. I refused to send it to Apple to protect my privacy in case they were able to recover any data. So, I had to pay for a new drive - and have kept the old drive. However, now I have read this article and learned that the specific drive model has a known fault, I am going to drop Apple a line. To be fair to Apple, I have no problem with providing evidence that the drive is unusable.

Re:This happened to me. But...

[jajimo]

We have large magnetic devices used for deactivating theft sensors in our stores. When one is placed on top of a workstation... non-system disk or disk error.

Heh heh

[real gumby]

So here's the joke.

Setup: Dave Winer is a pretty smart and generally clued-in guy, so if this really happened to him, his bad. (If it happened to me it would be my fault; if it happened to my mum who's smart but thinks about other things, it wouldn't be so much her fault). I'm pretty sure he knows that an posting like this one ought to generate plenty of page views...a nice year-end gift from his advertisers!

The punch line: since slashdot readers never RTFA he won't get the page views after all!

muahahah!

R & D

[Curlsman]

Maybe reading replaced drives is how Apple gets new ideas?

Did I really say that out loud...

Sean

Everybody

[bill_mcgonigle]

Who in their right mind signs a legal contract without understanding, or even knowing, what they are agreeing to?

Everybody. I went in to Jiffy Lube a few days ago to get the oil changed in the plow truck. They presented me with a 3-page contract to sign before doing the oil change. I estimated the risk of signing such a thing was low enough to not bother reading it. For once they were on the ball, and I got out of there in 10 minutes. It would have taken my that long to read the contract. I traded theoretical security for convenience/efficiency. Lots of people do this all the time and it generally works out.

If, however, you get burned, like Winer thinks he did, then you decide not to do business again with a concern that treats its customers shabbily.

The case in point is perplexing though, it's more efficient and secure to spend $200 on a hard drive and install it yourself if you have security concerns. Why just worry about getting back secure data if you've given your computer to somebody else (it's digital). Seriously, turn in your Geek Card if replacing a hard drive is too hard, even in a MacBook.

In reality, a low-wage tech at Memphis International probably replaced it after doing 20 others that day and he had 20 more to do to meet his quota. The old WinerDrive is almost certainly anonymously in a bin headed for a scrap heap.

Give back the disk

[PacketScan]

I see no reason why this disk shouldn't be returned to the user. They purchased a replacement drive..
This is why when i do work for anyone any old parts they go in a box.

winer or whiner?

[Xoth]

I have friends who are obsessed with warranties. Me, I dont care that much unless the item is brand new. Whether hard drives fail or I upgrade I do it myself and have the old hard drive.

Its computing 101! Made a mistake and to whine about it like its not his responsibility is the epitome of pretense and bravado. I'll repeat the same thing... encrypt sensitive data. What if the macbook was stoled or lost? Backup your data too. As a programmer it would be a bad career choice to make public to my clients that I write code with authn data and give the data away. Then say OOPS apple is at fault. Too much :)

Caveat Emptor

[tcampb01]

Unfortunately the article is light on details. While $160 is overpaying for an 80GB hard drive (esp. if it's only 5400 rpm), it's probably NOT overpaying if it includes the cost of installation as well as the cost of re-installing the OS. While the article certainly implies that they did, in fact, include the cost of installation, he doesn't mention if they did any other service or whether they broke the price down for him.

I have upgraded the hard drive on one of my old MacBook Pros and there's external compartment to access the drive. There's no quick-access panel to make this easy. The bottom case of the laptop has to be carefully opened. An experienced person could probably swap the drive in maybe 20 minutes, but then it also has to be tested and get an OS installed and that'll take longer.

Everyone jumps on the auto-parts law, but remember that law only applies to parts that can't be reconditioned. There are a number of car parts that can be reconditioned and when you have these replaced you generally do not get them back. But typically you'd know up front if you were getting new vs. reconditioned parts and if there's a deposit, etc. for the failed part. If you buy a new car battery -- even if you intend to replace it yourself, the parts store is generally required by law to charge you a 'core deposit' fee, which you only get back when you return the failed battery.

I'm amazed that this person writes that they felt they were being overcharged but then did not ask about the price before agreeing to let them do the service -- then made assumptions.

All that aside, I too would be very worried about my data falling in to the wrong hands. But isn't that ALL THE MORE reason why he should have asked questions resolved any doubt BEFORE agreeing to the service?

Re:Caveat Emptor

[MacDaffy]

You have it exactly right. Apple doesn't pay for recovery of data or installation of the operating system. A good Apple Authorized Service Provider makes every effort to retrieve the customer's data. That can involve a lot of time and money. Once the drive is kaput, there's nothing to fear from sending it to Apple:

First of all, they've got more than enough to worry about without taking the time to scour every customer's hard drive for useable tidbits--as I said, it's usually a moot point by the time it's sent in.

Secondly, they've probably got a warranty with the manufacturer just the way users do. Apple believes in metrics; a provider comes up with too many faulty parts, there's a price to be paid.

There's a case to be made for having the drive re-formatted (if possible--which is rare in these situations). If the drive is viable enough to survive the procedure, it could be re-formatted as MS-DOS, then formatted back to Mac OS Extended. Again, a drive wonky enough to bring in for service probably isn't going to render much.

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[ToasterMonkey]

It's usually part of the warranty agreement.
Even EMC will do the same thing with disks. The customer has the option to pay extra (not cheap) to keep failed drives though.

I don't understand why this guy didn't ask up front if he can keep his old drive, especially if he knew the repairs were under warranty.

You dirty perverted bastard

[Anonymous Coward]

whenever mac has to go to Hospital ( not too often, a few times in the many years of ownership of various machines ) I have to backup everything, wipe the disk, reinstall a basic OS.

Just admit it, you have loads of KIDDIE PR0N!

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[bigstrat2003]

The thing is, this work wasn't under warranty. That's why it's an especially bad case, the Apple store was keeping a part they replaced during non-warranty work.

The U.S. Federal gov gets their drives from Apple

[Danathar]

It's the Law for the U.S. Federal Gov. And they (Apple) comply. You have to go through the federal sales rep to make it happen, but as I understand it all the secret 3 letter agencies don't have to give back the drives that are bad.

Um... Apple Does give back your drive...

[Nabeel_co]

I work for an Apple authorized service provider in Canada, and there are two options (with two different prices)... there is an exchange option for hard drive replacement (cheaper) and there is a non return hard drive replacement option (more expensive)...

Requisite Local Computer Company Story...

[DCheesi]

Years ago, my employers used a local computer shop to supply and service our office computers. This shop was somewhat unique in that they dealt with both new and used computer parts.

Once, an engineer's hard drive went bad, and it was replaced by said shop. A few months later we had a new hire, and ordered a new computer for him. Imagine our surprise when the new guy's "new" computer turned up with the other engineer's data on it!

Re:Remember kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Policy may be flexible, but some store employees clearly don't know that. See here and here. I had an Apple store Genius deny me my drive, even when I offered to pay.

Do not store it there

[dindi]

Or keep it encrypted.

Not an option?
External drive. Just keep them there. I am really not comfortable of giving out anything with possibly restorable data.

Wonder why not just swap a new disk in at a place where you can keep an eye on it.

cos tof repairing cars

[falconwolf]

When it comes to shmucks like me who have no place to maintain their cars, well, the local garages charge an arm and a leg because they can, and we're more worried about "how much will it cost" than "can I get my beatup fender back."

This happened to me the first tyme my tranny went out. I was on my way to class went the car stopped moving. I had it towed to a repair shop I knew of and asked them to call me with an estimate. A week later, after not hearing from them I went down to the shop and asked. The guy said he had it fixed 2 hour later. The total was $300, $150 for the work and $150 for the clutch which had collapsed. That's $75 an hour, and later that day I found out I could have bought the part for less than $100. After that I did all the work on the car it needed, with one exception. I had to rebuild the engine and when I did the cylinders had to be drilled out. So not having a machine shop I took the engine block down to one to have them do it.

Falcon

Why wouldn't you replace it yourself?

[TofuDog]

Unlike the MacBook Pro, the MacBook allows HD replacement as a "user-serviceable" part (i.e., doesn't void the warranty; one thing that keeps me from buying a MBP -the hope of eventual better MB graphics being the other...). Now, not everyone is a geek and up for installing the OS, restoring from backups (?!) etc. -but you could buy a big, fast drive for the same $ -and this was posted on Slashdot...

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[thegrassyknowl]

This is a reply to a few posts...

The admin password for file vault is different from the system's admin password is it not? It's been ages since I enabled it so I don't recall.

Paying for warranty service is not unusual if you purchase extended warranties for some things. I have seen some extended warranties that make the consumer pay for labour to replace certain parts (like disks, which are most likely to fail) after the manufacturer's statutory warranty expires.

As for backups; the whole point of the article is not that he lost the data. It's that he lost control of a disk containing sensitive data. Backups don't help in that situation.

As for file vault being buggy and slowing everything down; It has its faults. The biggest I notice is that it won't auto-shrink the file system as large chunks are removed. Your encrypted volume can quickly grow to fill the disk even though there's nothing in it. The only way to get it to shrink the volume is to log off and wait for a potentially long time while it shrinks the volume for you. That is particularly annoying in my line of work because building software and storing the intermediate files in the FV means that it grows by a huge amount and shrinks fairly quickly.

I haven't run into any bugs with FV and I'm a pretty heavy user. I don't doubt that it has its bugs though.

There is a slight performance penalty for using it but everything is a trade-off between performance and security. I'd rather sit safe in the knowledge that if my laptop (mac or not) goes missing that whatever person gets hold of it can't easily access the highly sensitive data that's contained therein.

Re:Remember kids.

[pelorus]

I work for an Apple store and to the best of my knowledge, we have no recourse with regard to customer's who want their drives returned. It's just not an option. On top of that, we won't even work on computers, in or out of warranty, that have a 3rd-party hard disk installed. YMMV.

One more reason to support your Independent Apple Authorised Service Provider. We can get disks back from Apple, even under warranty. I know this cos I've done it.

replacing the drive

[falconwolf]

.While I think Apple needed to make it plain to the customer he wouldn't get his old drive back, I don't think you can say that Apple should be obliged to offer a drive replacement with old drive back service. They're a private company after all.

But they didn't offer to replace the drive, as it was out of warranty he paid for it.

Falcon

Re:replacing the drive

[mike2R]

What I am saying is, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with offering a service (as a standalone service, no warranty issues involved) where you replace a disk for a fee + cost of parts, but keep the old part.

There is a problem if you consider it reasonable for the customer to expect to get his disk back absent obvious information to the contrary (which I do), it is then the company's responsibility to make sure the customer is aware of this non-obvious clause.

Re:replacing the drive

[falconwolf]

What I am saying is, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with offering a service (as a standalone service, no warranty issues involved) where you replace a disk for a fee + cost of parts, but keep the old part.

I think there is something wrong with it unless the customer is made aware of it before the service is rendered.

There is a problem if you consider it reasonable for the customer to expect to get his disk back absent obvious information to the contrary (which I do), it is then the company's responsibility to make sure the customer is aware of this non-obvious clause.

It was the writer's own fault he didn't read the agreement if he got it before the service was done. But fault lies with Apple if they didn't explain prior to the work and didn't provide the agreement that they would keep the old drive.

Falcon

returns on replacement

[falconwolf]

Oe perhaps you know of a few consumer electronics companies that DO, as standard procedure, send back the defective parts that are replaced by their warranty/service departments. I know IBM will... if you're a big iron customer, make sure it's written into your service contract, and pay them extra for the privilege. But that's not exactly their consumer electronics division (Which I don't think they even HAVE anymore.). And other than them, I've never had it happen to *me*.

I have had it happen to me. First, the hdd in a laptop I bought from Gateway. Less than a year after I got the laptop I had trouble with it and called tech support. The tech walked me through some tests then said the hdd needed to be replaced. He arranged to have one sent and said I needed to pack the old drive and send it into them. Later I replaced it with an HP. On the HP both the hdd and the motherboard died and had to be replaced. I got neither one back.

Falcon

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[falconwolf]

I don't understand why this guy didn't ask up front if he can keep his old drive, especially if he knew the repairs were under warranty.

Ah but as he paid for the new drive I doubt the repair was under warranty.

Falcon

How I handled my MacBook drive replacement

[DTemp]

I'm entering this conversation late, but here it is, how I handled it when my MacBook's 80GB drive died:

I sat down for my appointment at the Genius Bar. I asked him if I would get to keep the drive, since I was worried about my data. He said no, since they have to return the dead drive to the manufacturer. Fine, I agreed with that, so I asked if he could certify that the drive was indeed "dead" and worthy of replacement, so I could take it home and sandpaper the platters. He said that was fine; I didn't take his word for it, and made sure the manager was okay with it, in case his shift ended and there was no record that my drive was officially declared under warranty repair.

So I went home, and completely took out the platters, and put back together the case of the drive (sans platters) and took it back to the Apple store.

They put a new drive in my MacBook without fuss, and took the old drive's metal shell to give back to the manufacturer. I don't know if this scenario is officially endorsed by the corporate office, but it worked at the Cambridge, MA Apple store.

replacing the drive

[falconwolf]

If a hard drive dies in your Mac, you have to ship the machine to Apple and have them replace it?

If I have any problem with my MacBook Pro I can go down to the Apple store and have someone look at it, though it's better to make an appointment first. As I've seen the guts of a Mac all lain and spread out on a counter and saw Geniuses, techs, replace bad hardware I'm pretty sure they'd have no problem replacing an hdd. I did see once a Genius tell someone who brought his Mac in that it had to be sent in as the motherboard had to be replaced. The guy said he was concerned about the data on his hdd and the tech offered to back it up for him. So he bought an external hdd then the tech took it and the old hdd into the back to transfer the data.

Falcon

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[lmpeters]

FileVault does have problems. To add to what others have said, apparently some applications (such as iListen) run into problems with FileVault. I'm not entirely sure why, but I'm guessing it's because of the performance penalty (and I noticed a pretty heavy performance penalty even on a Mac Pro!). It's actually a bit strange, because I've used dm-crypt on Linux and didn't have any noticeable performance penalty (even on slower hardware).

Personally, I keep all sensitive information on an external hard disk, which has an encrypted disk image on it. And I ALWAYS wipe hard disks before getting rid of them, regardless of whether I'm getting them replaced under warranty (if there's important data on one, I copy it BEFORE I let anyone else near it). The only times I make an exception is when a disk has failed so completely that it's totally unreadable (and at that point it's impervious to casual snooping anyway). No problems so far.

Re:Remember kids.

[mabhatter654]

He was at the fucking store!!! Why can't the APPLE STORE be just as reasonable? as the mail order repair. It's a fucking hard drive! He sounded willing to pay "extra", but they didn't even OFFER that option to his complaint!!!

There's a bunch of stuff he COULD have done differently, but he'd have preferred APPLE to do their JOB and make it right for HIM on the first try, not after he carefully negotiates with them 1 hour over a 5 minute repair. He didn't ask for it back up front because he was still in the store and expected them to act ETHICALLY and inform him of his choice as a matter of quality service he valued enough to pay extra for!!!

Returned by LAW

[gd2shoe]

I second this.

By law, the computer repair shop I work for must offer the replaced part back to the customer.

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Not if you don't save the password for the volume on a keyring.

Re:metamoderation's a bitch, mods.

[ToasterMonkey]

So why did he highlight the warranty section of his agreement? I assume he read it to highlight it, and it's quite clear that it applies to repairs done under warranty. Maybe he really dropped it, but didn't have the balls to admit to the whole internet. He also picks on the pricing but doesn't understand notebook drives cost more, and doesn't mention whether that price included the diagnostic or installation services. If out of warranty, those are surely not free.

Parts of his story smell fishy, but I've read elsewhere that it is Apple's policy to keep drives replaced out of warranty for a number of good (mostly for Apple) reasons. The best recommendation I found was to tell them it contains medical data, and they'd be violating HIPAA regulations.

A court might disagree.

[Reziac]

A court might see it differently -- the court may say that your right to get your old parts back has been established in law already, and overrides Apple's illegal contract. Just as an auto repair shop can't unilaterally decide that they're keeping your old parts, because the law says they have to be offered back to the customer.

But I think another poster may have it at least partly right -- sometimes people are more interested in having Righteous Indignation than they are in actually rectifying the situation.

Re:This happened to me. But...

[jridley]

Agree with other posters here. I can pretty much guarantee that magnet didn't do squat. If he'd use a really large AC electromagnet (bulk eraser) then maybe, but I've put very strong magnets right up against hard drives before without bothering them at all.

If you want to make sure that the data is gone, you need to run a data scrubber like DiskZapper. If the drive isn't working, you need to PHYSICALLY wreck it; drilling a hole straight through the drive and platters is a good start. For extra bonus points, put it on top of a pile of nice hot charcoal, then blow air in until it's hot enough to melt the case.

Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile

[jridley]

Why wasn't he using File Vault; it's standard and part of OSX. Sure, Apple probably have back doors but it's one step in the right direction.

If it has back doors, it's a step in the WRONG direction. Encryption either works or it doesn't. Using broken encryption isn't helping at all.

warranty

[falconwolf]

So why did he highlight the warranty section of his agreement? I assume he read it to highlight it, and it's quite clear that it applies to repairs done under warranty

Ah, the first sentence says "warranty" but the second says "If repairing parts out of warranty or extended service contract", so it obviously applies to out of warranty work as well. The log doesn't say anything about a warranty, "warranty" does not appear anywhere in TFA itself, but it does say he bought the new hdd.

Parts of his story smell fishy, but I've read elsewhere that it is Apple's policy to keep drives replaced out of warranty for a number of good (mostly for Apple) reasons. The best recommendation I found was to tell them it contains medical data, and they'd be violating HIPAA regulations.

I wouldn't say it sounds fishy but I would say he should have kept a backup, and he knew that. Thanks for suggesting the HIPAA, I'll have to try to remember that. If anything like this happens to me, correction, if my hdd goes bad and they say they will replace it I'll make an appointment for them to do it later then at home stick it in the oven on low or something to wipe out the contents. If the hdd doesn't work, but if it does I'll try to scrub the hdd as well as I can. Now for backups, I've got one 500GB external hdd but I haven't made a backup yet. I also want to get a second external drive to store somewhere offsite.

Falcon

Yes, certainly Apple has to return the old drive

[walter_f]

In my view Apple has absolutely no right to keep Dave Winer's drive old drive as it had not been replaced on a warranty basis (instead, he paid a hefty price for the new one).

IANAL, but it seems clear that Dave has perfect legal ownership to both drives as he has paid for both of them (supposing labor costs for the drive exchange have either been charged separately or were included in the new drives price).

California law

[conureman]

In the olden days, when I was a kid, I repaired televisions. I don't recall the name of the government entity involved, similar to the Bureau of Automotive Repair, but for electronic repair, and we had the same law regarding customer's old parts. I would assume that applies to computers as well as radios and television. Isn't Apple incorporated in The People's Republic of California?

Re: Should Apple Give Back Replaced Disk Brakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I listed more steps than you, but only because you missed things out like replacing brake fluid and bleeding the system, which is a two man, time consuming process. In reality you do far more work than I do.

I still didn't quite get the difference. Could you give a car analogy?

Your Fault.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do car parts have your social security number on them? No? Bit different, then.

It's quite different... which is why one should be careful never to send a hard drive back for OEM service. Especially not when the terms of the contract explicitly say that they do replacements and not repair.

If, knowing your drive contains such delicate information, you ship your computer off to Apple for "repair" the loss is your fault. You should have sent the computer, or at least the drive, to a data recovery specialist.