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Young Employees Pose Increasing Risk to Networks
buzzardsbay writes "Baseline is reporting on an upcoming survey from Symantec and Applied Research-West that confirms many suspicions about the generation gap in the workplace, namely that younger workers will use your corporate network to run most any device, technology or social networking software they can get their hands on. Dubbed "Millenials," these workers born after 1980 are nearly twice as likely to use cell phones and PDAs at work, and half admit to installing unauthorized software on their employer's computers. On the upside, the Millenials are more security aware than their older co-workers."
isn't it the company's responsibility to control their network?
- Do it but don't admit it
- Or don't it but are way less productive than their peers
I don't know how it is for the rest of the slashdot crowd but almost everywhere I've worked it's impossible to be (decently) productive using only authorized software.
The sad thing is not a matter of cost, but a matter of paperwork. Something as basic as winrar (no, let's not go into why would I want to use winanything) is impossible to get by the official channels.
They are more likely to play on your lawn. Make sure you yell at them from your front window. Damn kids.
only 25% of pre-1980 employees install rogue software on corporate PCs compared to 46% post 1980. If that happened in the bank I worked for there would be hell to pay!
They pose a greater risk because of unauthorized software, yet they are more security aware. Am I missing something that would otherwise make this sensical?
Most people born after 1980 are treated like shit in the IT industry. You are taken on for pitiful wages with vague promises of future riches, squeezed for every bit of knowledge you have, then booted out when the project(s) you are working on are finished. So it is hardly surprising that people treated so shabbily don't have a particular commitment to their workplace.
Most of the highly technical and well paid jobs (system admins and the like) seem to be already taken by well established old folk, and nobody is really interested in training anybody for when they retire. Managers take IT systems completely for granted, consider IT professionals to be lowly peons, and are in for a nasty shock when the handful of people keeping their systems running leave.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
disclaimer: I am a "millenial", whatever the hell that means ;)
From the second slide: It's irritatingly true that many millenials can't pry themselves from their damn phones. Nobody should allow their phones to ring in class or during a date -- unless they're dope dealers, pimps, doctors, or on-call IT staff. That's why I prefer the company of mature women: they say a lot less, but what they say actually counts!
From the fourth slide: Not at all surprised to see that 59 % of "millenial" workers think they can install whatever they want, given that more of them are spoiled gimme-gimmes...but to be fair, I'll bet that older people are far more adept at trashing their home computers than millenials are at trashing any computer. How many times have you all had to reinstall your grandpappy's mangled, crapware-infested OS(which shall remain nameless...*wink*)?
From the tenth slide: how does better access to technology improve work/life balance? Does it enable workaholics to work from home during their offtime? Does it enable employees to feel "home" while fuckin' off on Myspace at work? I doubt that a significant percentage of those sampled were full-time telecommuters who truly felt a better work-life balance(read: they weren't "encouraged" to put in mass overtime just because they worked from home).
Is there any damned way we could stop reassigning people to other generations.
kthxbye.
And also get off my damned lawn.
OTOH, my colleagues around the same age as me most likely don't even know what a PDA is, and installing software of any kind themselves? Out of the question.
Pffft.
No, I'm not making this up. This really happened one place I worked.
My blog
I thought we called these guys "gen y"?
Looks like the title is overblown. The younger works do slightly more risky things than the older workers. However, the older workers (Gen X in this case) still do all the same things, just a little less often. None of the numbers suggest a big change in risk. A lot of the risk factors being described just go from numbers like 47% to 51%. Hardly anything dramatic.
If you want to secure your network, you need to address all the risks that are out there. Adding a little more risky behavior does not really make for any real changes is the risks to the network. Networks are always at risk from the weakest link. A 60 year old employee who happens to do something risky is just as bad for the network as a 20 year old.
On one side letting some random person install any old IRC client is just asking for the office machine to be owned eventually. On the other hand, I hate the idea of being a no good outlaw just because I want to use vim instead of notepad for text editing.
I read the internet for the articles.
First off: Worst article ever. Not just one paragraph per page...1 statistic per page? Jesus. Content to page ratio is like .001:11. And what content there is is vapid and uninteresting.
If you're an admin tasked with security, you have to assume all users are evil, so the question should be more along the lines of, "What is the problem with your process that you are allowing these users to install unapproved software?" Symantec obviously has a big stake in convincing people that they need better security (assuming that this will drive business for their crappy products), but the simple truth is that these sorts of problems shouldn't BE problems in an adequately secured network...Even your basic windows AD setup on XP is capable of restricting software installs and such.
If you're a big believer in allowing users to install whatever crap that they think they need to do their jobs, then you'll need to invest in some solid networking gear because you're inevitably going to have more problems. Otherwise, just lock it down, set up an approval process, and be prepared to deal with a zillion complaints from people who think they're experts because they did their own myspace page.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
give their passwords on the phone to whoever asks. I've seen it happen. Security is an issue that effects us all. Shouldn't single out the young people on this one.
They're also less likely to call IT with problems like "I'm trying to make an Internet on my desktop but I can't get the file to program."
I don't care why you're posting AC
This just in... young people are more likely to use iPods and PDAs than old people. Film at 11.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
A lot of IM software have web-based implementations, and with gmail it's built-in. It's difficult to track them all down because there are third party implementations as well.
those who manage the networks and PCs get ticked off and impose what seem like draconian rules about installing software and locking people down. All that extra cruft takes its toll on network performance and consumes resources.
If you need a piece of software, yes, we will install it for you. You do not need the Gmail notifier constantly popping up and telling you you have new mail or checking for updates. Nor do you need to have Quicktime continually checking for updates. You most certainly do not need any kind of P2P software installed.
While it's nice these "new" people are more comfortable with technology, the downside is the proverbial, "Just enough knowledge to be dangerous".
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What kinds of unauthorized software are people using, exactly? If a company was actually concerned about people installing things on their office computers, couldn't they just keep the administrative privileges away from the employees and/or flag computers they catch using certain software?
I mean, on campus here they block any computer suspected of using peer to peer programs for two hours (which is annoying when you have skype which can get mistaken for a peer to peer program if you leave it running) and my supervisor hasn't given me sudo permission on my computer (although I'm trying to bug him for updates and whatever software in hopes that if I harass him enough he'll get annoyed and let me do it myself). It generally doesn't seem that hard to do.
what's that now?
What exactly does "unauthorized software" mean?
My company doesn't give me administrator privilages, but has IE 5.5 installed. They haven't told me exactly what I can or can't do with my computer (except "you can browse the web in your down-time, but don't look at porn"), but I don't think the people that immediately oversee me know enough about computers to understand installing programs and stuff (really, it's pretty amazing--they don't even know that IE 5.5 is different at all from whatever they use at home).
The computer won't let my upgrade IE, so I installed Opera and Firefox. Is this "unauthorized software"?
Now, let's go a step more complicated.
They said I can browse the web in my downtime, right. So I figured I can also download and view MIT physics lectures (yes, Walter Lewin). My computer doesn't have proper codecs to view these videos. So I had to install codecs, but the computer is very resistant to that--it took a lot of trial and error to find a codec that would install and also play the videos.
Did the larger amount of work to avoid the problems associated with a lack of administrator privileges make this "unauthorized"?
I've also tweaked the registry (this is Windows 2000) because there were several programs starting with the computer that I have no use for. "Unauthorized"?
Typical piece written by a suedo-IT guy.
IT thinks the world can get by with Microsoft office and nothing else. Need a graphics program to put a presentation together? Fat chance. Hell, just downloading and installing convert.exe is a "violation". MP3 player other that windows media? PDF converter? There are a hundred different applications that I need to use, and half the time I use them only once or twice. If I followed the "IT" rules, I'd fill out a form, wait a month, then get denied because the application isn't "business centric" or it doesn't "fit your company position". Even better is that they only support 1 type of PDA. So I use a notebook (paper) instead.
Perhaps the "IT" generation should start being a little more flexible and actually give folks the applications they need on a somewhat timely basis. That would go a long way towards helping. Where's the report saying that the IT folks are the worst offenders when it comes to network security when you need it?
This is complete un-based speculation, and I'm also a "Millennial"(firefox sp) myself. But here's a thought: Do you think that maybe all that electronics and software advertising specifically targeted at my generation is what encourages them to use it?
What's the value of information that you don't know?
And young employees are more likely to use bittorrent/file sharing software using company resources and bandwidth. And it's tough to stop it since the supervisors and IT guys are doing the same thing.
"...namely that younger workers will use your corporate network to run most any device, technology or social networking software they can get their hands on. Dubbed "Millenials," these workers born after 1980 are nearly twice as likely to use cell phones and PDAs at work, and half admit to installing unauthorized software on their employer's computers. On the upside, the Millenials are more security aware than their older co-workers."
Um, no. That they install unverified social software on corporate machines and socialize at work means they are not more security aware. Social access is the number one security breach method.
On the downside, that doesnt really matter when theyre installing Bitlord and Lime(Frost)wire...
That, that really grinds my gears!
I'm in my mid-20's so I think I would fit into this "generation" gap and want to comment on this. And no, I'm not at work presently to post this, in case the inescapable irony strikes some readers.
I know some of my peers feel that simply having access to the Internet means they can use it during the workday either to take a break during the work period, not work at all or use the Internet on breaks. My friends don't do this but I have had co-workers who have and were generally disciplined and eventually fired for not doing their assigned work.
Personally, I feel that I have an obligation to my employer: 1) to do the tasks I am assigned and 2) to protect the information on their networks. I avoid using the Net at work for non-work tasks and social networks for these reasons.
Wouldn't the simple solution be not to give people admin access unless they actually NEED it?
Works for your kids, too.
While I am posting from work, I get the impression that the article is too underdeveloped to even be worth reading by the majority of the /. crowd. (I am aware that most won't read the article at all.) I'm more interested in how they came up with their statistics. If this was a Q&A session as opposed to monitoring employees over a period of time, then the results aren't worth a shit.
I especially love how less than 40% of either category uses their work PCs for personal reasons. Unless you know you're being monitored at any given time, I doubt that statistic.
This article appears to be taking a stupid slant on the statistics that have been gathered. It keeps harping about the "Millenials" (people born after 1980) when really it should say "people in their 20s". My issue is that 20 years from now, the Millenials will be in their 40s, but it will still be the people in their 20s who are the greater risk. The Millenials are not a generation of risk takers, they are currently at the risk taking age.
When I was in my 20s, I was much more risk prone than I am now (in my 40s). Back then I considered it my *right* to be able to install whatever I wanted on a computer, and would be unconditionally annoyed and offended if it was not allowed. Today I am more aware that there are reasons for most restrictions. Yes, some restrictions don't make sense, but a very many do.
This type of thinking was in more aspects of life than just computers. Back in my 20s, I would say that I drove less cautiously than I do today. I drank more heavily, ate poorly, resented having to wear a bike helmet, jay-walked more often, the list goes on. These are all behaviours that I, and most people, grow out of.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
I'm at work right now, and I've installed Firefox, a bunch of extensions, AntiVir to replace the nonexistant antivirus that wasn't installed, Spybot, and Miranda IM.
Exactly how am I posing an increased risk to the network here?
I am 30. So I suppose that makes me a Gen X or NeXt or whatever label should be associated with me.
Anyway we are just better at hiding all the crap we install.
I'll remember this article next time that me, born in 1982 has to go round removing all the shareware games like Kyodai that all the middle age helpdesk women have decided to install on their computers because the 40 yr old manager we have thinks they should be free of security restrictions even if it causes such problems and creates security risks for the network.
Or when I'm dealing with silly amounts of calls because one 40+ yr old colleague is stood outside on their mobile phone arranging with their wife who is doing the cooking and the other is browsing holiday sites deciding where to go on holiday next.
Articles like this are stupid, they're a generalisation and where I work it couldn't be further from the truth. 3 out of 4 of our 1980s+ born workers and 1 out of 12 of our pre 1980s born workers make up our best 4 workers, that's completely out of line with the articles findings and whilst I realise you always get anomalies from statistical samples you should also not try and dress up this kind of bullshit as general fact.
In fact look at TFA, as hard as that is when it insists on jumping to the next stat before you've had chance to check the page properly I don't notice any information how solid a test base they used.
For all I know this could be put together by some disgruntled middle aged worker who actually sucks bad at his job but like many would rather blame someone else and so decided to blame the younger generation for taking his work.
Anyone know how reasonable a test base was used for this study? As it stands I could equally put together a made up study claiming older people are more likely to steal from the work place and pass it off as being fact.
...to use ten animated web pages to display data that could have been presented better in ten lines of text using old-fashioned print media.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Like one other poster pointed out, the older seem to be more likely to execute anything they receive in emails or click on the intarwebs. My brother worked in IT for an engineering firm and believe it or not engineers would still open malicious files and infect the network. It may or may not be generational but anyone can be educated about these things.
The PDA thing appears to me to be resisted by young and old. Yeah it's cool you can get internet connectivity but that means you can be reached potentially anytime to do something work related. Your boss can email something to your phone for you to work on at home or on the weekend. That is blurring the line between work life and home life, and I would prefer not to be bothered (unless it's something extremely important) if I'm not at work with something that can wait 12 hours.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
OK, you seem to be telling us you are in the UK, and you are under 30. That means that the previous generation for you would be people who are approximately 50-60, yes?
Being as that would be the first post-war generation, I'm not sure how you could get off saying they had it "a fuck load easier" than you in the UK. In case you have already forgotten, the UK had the fuck pretty well bombed out of it in WWII. The first post-war generation had to take part in the rebuilding of the country, and playing catch-up with the nations that were fortunate enough to not have lost the bulk of their infrastructure to the luftwaffe.
Your generation, on the other hand, has now that new infrastructure available. You are able to go to school and pursue whatever study you want. Nobody expects you to help bring your country around, because its doing pretty damned well now.
Yep, that certainly equates to the previous generation having had it a fuck load easier, doesn't it?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
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In a C|Net story the other day I commented that I refused to go there, despite the fact that there is the off chance I might learn something that would increase my productivity because of tha two paras per screen and all the ads. When someone mentioned adblock and Firefox I replied that I was at work.
He said something along the lines of "you're a nerd, can't you install it without detection?"
As a 55 year old geezer, today's story confirms my suspicians: he's a 20 something whippersnapper.
What's sad is that the way I read the summary, it says these folks are security conscious but don't give a rat's ass about their employers' security. Guys, look, even I take my cell phone to work, but you should stop installing crap that you're not supposed to. It's not your computer and it's unethical and immoral to install something on a computer without its owner's permission. Would you install a nitrous kit to your employer-provided company car? Shades of Cheech and Chong!
-mcgrew
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I'm not going to give a great deal of credit to someone who can't subtract 60 from 2008. Someone who is 60 now was 5 years old when rationing ended in this country. They would've gone to university in 1966, by which time the UK had certainly recovered from Nazi bombing and they would've enjoyed free higher education in a variety of universities.
This shows a profound ignorance of the subject at hand - the cost of going to university has been constantly increasing for as long as I can remember.
Except we are expected to sacrifice for our country. Pay for military adventures instead of health and education, suffer constant losses of liberty that affect the young and poor far more than the Daily Mail brigade. You don't have a clue about what is going on in the UK right now.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Get off my lawn, you!
Off my network, too! Especially if you run that commie Linucks or Mac stuff! Unamerican!
Seems to me that if younger workers are MORE security aware then I'm not sure how it's fair to summarize them as posing "increasing risk" simply because they use peripheral devices. Those who are mentally unable to wrap their minds around the basic 'safe practices' of network use would seem to pose a higher security risk then those who simply plug-in a peripheral device - especially so if the user of the device is well aware of security and how it relates to that device (assuming, of course, that this individual actively cares about security to begin with).
Non-savvy users are more likely to engage in risky behavior and have no clue. In other words, it would seem to me that ignorance in how to be safe a far more risky.
I am Jack's smirking revenge.
Extra Extra, read all about -- "Young people are more likely to use and know about new technology".
Huge surprise.
What's next... fat people know more about eating? I for one as a fat person do know a LOT about eating but it isn't headline news.
I smell a scape goat......
You're kidding, right? Were you going to school on grants? I'm at a state school at about $14,000/year, books not included (try $500/semester from the bookstore, or $100/semester from online bookstores). Oh, yeah, meal plan is extra. It costs the same per month to live off campus as it does to share a glorified closet with a roommate... really a no brainer (especially for a software development major). I'll rough the five minute drive so I can: play my stereo as loud as I want when I want (studio apartment, no neighbors), keep my gun (no weapons on campus), run 7 computers and have 2 desks, hang two white boards behind my desks (I do the 'L' configuration with the wall to my back, I can swivel my chair to either desk or whiteboard and my bookshelf is within arms length - I recommend it to everyone!) not to mention my own bathroom. Oh, and I can write code in my boxers or naked if I'd like; you can't put a price tag on that!
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
With I'm the Boss / CEO / VP want I want to be a admin / I want this piece of software / I want this cool screen saver that is really a piece of carpware / I want to have My ipod work on my system mindset.
Also it shows up as they can bw clueless about IT when they buy Software for the workplace that does not work them well with out asking IT about it. Push down password limitations / policys that are so limited that uses just end witting then down. Lock things down so much the uses have to hack there own system / department's setup there own domains just to get there work done on time.
Read something in a business magazine that do not fully understand but they want for there business right now and don't want hear why IT says that we can use it like at,
Make getting that need software for someone to do there job so hard that people just find ways to hack it / download it just to get out of the all the paper work / time needed to get it the official way. As it is there ass on line if they miss there deadline.
You don't have a clue about what is going on in the UK right now.
And you do not have a clue that the same shit is going on around the world and has been since before you were a zygote. It will be years before you actually understand half of what you rage against. Don't make the same mistake that most of us make and fluff your way through with piss and vinegar. Sack up and make change (this is the part you are missing). No, your cute little satellite at university does not count.
Can we please kill this seemingly out-of-the-blue generational term now? It is attempting to describe me, and as a steward of people "born after 1980", I would like to kindly request not to be associated with such a nonsensically named group.
I would actually prefer the Fucked Generation, on account of (a) the out-of-control real estate market which came about as many of us were graduating from our four year universities, and (b) the fact that, as implemented, the Social Security program is going to dry up by the time we are ready to retire in the 2040s.
Combine the inability to buy a house with the inability to rely on public help during retirement and you don't get Generation Millenial -- you get Generation Fucked.
*** Other suggestions for what to call the children of the 80s, though I thought the unofficial term was already Gen Y.
Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
I'm due to make something that will, rocket malfunctions notwithstanding, should be in orbit of the Earth by the end of 2009. What the fuck have you done with your life Mr. Anonymous Coward?
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
I'm not a 'milleniumial', I was born in the first half of the 20th century. When I work for a company, they want two things: productivity and security. Security means that I'm not going to harm the company physical property and co-workers. Productivity means that I produce more of what they sell than it costs them to pay me.
Two paracitical factors inhibit this arrangement: the IT department and the human resources (legal) department. The cousin ITs believe that they can build a framework according to their training that will make us all be more productive. The HR believe the same with a different framework. But since neither of them are engaged in the primary productive activity that makes the enterprise profitable, the inevitably screw it up. In a million little and not so little ways. So we fight back.
Case in point, in the USA the politicians and insurance companies have fucked-up the health care industry to the point where most employers will not hire people in order to avoid providing health insurance. They hire people on 'contracts' creating a class of permanent temporary workers. This is especially common in the electronics industry. We work some place for six months, then work another place for six months, etc... If we get sick, we point a gun at the head of some supermarket manager and have him give us the cash in the safe. It's the new American way, it will happen to you, so don't judge me for what I must do. I don't want to hurt anyone.
Anyway, we bring our own tools to new jobs. Our software programs that we customize and modify that will maximize our productivity. Tools like text editors, spreadsheet macros, graphics and CAD design programs. I'm going to spend forty hours learning CADbozoCAD when most of the industry uses BozoCAD, just because your company got it a 10% discount? Fuck that!
I'm going to put BozoCAD my computer that I work with. I'm going to create works and convert the results into standard formats. I'm going to ignore as much as possible any previous work done in any non-industry standard format. Is there a risk to your company network and even maybe the BSA Microsoft thugs? Possibly, but...I...don't...give...a...fuck. If you hire us and provide health insurance like all companies do in the rest of the civilized world, then I ( and the millions like me in this situation) would be more sensitive to these concerns. It's one of the unforseen issues that results from using perma-temps as your workforce.
Most production managers realize this and accept it. Most cousin ITs and dumb-as-shit Human Resources people don't. Because it doesn't fit into the frameworks that they built. But my paycheck depends on the companie's bottom line and as a production worker, I create that.
So it is a constant three-way battle between the cousin ITs (the information technology department of the company who maintain the company network),the perma-temps, and the HR lawyers. They ALWAYs believe that by firing us, they maintain control and security. But they don't provide the product that keeps the company in business. Their departments are not profit centers for the company.
So the game just goes around and around. This is why I have come to hate the IT department in any company. HR people are too stupid to be concerned with, and lawyers aren't human so don't waste emotional cycles on them.
Before anyone complains too much about how these people should completely separate the work place from non-work activities, just remember you're hiring humans not robots. If humans occupy one place for a while, they will try to personalise it. They will also inevitably also perform some non-work activities. If you want robots, then hire robots. Since robots are apparently very rare, be prepared to pay a lot of money. Or accept that they humans you've hired are human, and try to work around the problem. Complaining about human nature will not make it go away no matter how many words like "business", "should" and "professional" you use.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
"Case in point, in the USA the politicians and insurance companies have fucked-up the health care industry to the point where most employers will not hire people in order to avoid providing health insurance. They hire people on 'contracts' creating a class of permanent temporary workers."
That may be happening to you, but I'd say that has far more to so with you than the state of the industry.
I haven't found any of the things in your post to be accurate, and honestly, I'd say you're full of shit.
Of course, you included the obligatory "US healthcare is fucked-up/ blame the insurance companies and politicians" troll, so you'll inevitably be modded up.
But you're lying, and we all know it.
That would be 1948. And your point is?
Someone who is 60 now was 5 years old when rationing ended in this country. They would've gone to university in 1966
The generation time for humans is generally taken to be 25 years. If they are the generation prior to you, then you should have entered university in 1991. Where were you in 1991? Being as the article in question is regarding people born after 1980, you would have been at best 10 years old in 1991. Did you really enter university at age 10?
Or were you just starting to develop misplaced rage towards the earlier generations?
This shows a profound ignorance of the subject at hand - the cost of going to university has been constantly increasing for as long as I can remember.
Your reply shows profound ignorance towards what I said. I never said anything about what you may or may not pay for school. My statement was only in regards to academic freedom of choice.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Mmmmmmmmm goat.
I previously worked in an all-Microsoft IT operation where users did not have Admin and things were pretty well locked down, anti-virus was standard, etc. (this was after a particularly nasty and business-threatening virus event).
The "advanced users" who chafed under the inability to install anything were given the Microsoft Virtual PC, where you could have a safer place to run software you downloaded, and heck even run Linux if needed.
In a perfect world, I'd like to see the Virtual PC locked down to a specific IP that would be firewalled outside the standard business LAN.
In my company, I've noticed that all of the men have locadmin accounts, whereas the women (yes, we actually have some) are stuck waiting for "internal support" to install updates to necessary programs (case management software) or install new programs. Then again, I've also heard many bad things about being a female in my company (and was even told that the only reason that I have my job/pay is because I'm a man! So much for actually being competent; I'll just throw my gender out there and get a raise!)
half admit to installing unauthorized software on their employer's computers. On the upside, the Millenials are more security aware than their older co-workers.
As some other posters have pointed out, this is about age rather than a change in attitude. Millenials believe that they are more security aware, but they're flushing that down the toilet by installing unauthorized software. And by unauthorized I mean those hax0r'd copies of Office and Photoshop. Who knows what keyloggers and other bits and pieces are present in those binary blobs? This sort of attitude sure makes industrial espionage easier.
I agree with your position. In an electronics production lab or factory floor it is insane to be tied to the same network as the rest of the company. And it is unreasonable to expect us to follow the same rules for the omnipresent company network.
Each department or workgroup needs to have a private network so people can load their own WinAmp, personal text editors and productivity-enhancing macros, MP3s, and oscilloscope controllers without having to interact with the rest of the company network.
But I've found that it is nearly impossible to convince anyone in any IT department of this reality. So it goes.
I will step to put a bit of perspective on this flamefest and tell you something I heard somewhere (unfortunately I can not site but someone here will certainly correct me). The paraphrased quote went something like this:
"The difference between Americans and British is that Americans believe their country is wonderful and is the best one in the world while the reality is that it is terrible. On the other hand, Britons are always bitching about their country without realizing their life is actually pretty good".
I can tell you from my experience in the UK (I've lived in the UK for about 4 years, coming form Mexico) is that you people over here have it really easy. Shit, people can just stop working and the government will pay them money. "spare some change mate?" you see people selling the "big issue" and then they go to cash their check to get beer. That is being poor in this country. Let me tell you, you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.
For people in the UK life is really easy right now. It is, really. You have a hell lot of things which you take for granted. You whine that you can not get a free dentist. Oh shit, but you do not see that in other countries and in other times (even in your country) there is no free NHS even for a freaking Nurse.
So as other people already said, stop whining and go back to fucking work you lazy ass.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Overall I found the article biased. It put a negative bend on the fact the the up and coming generation are more comfortable with technology, better connected and networked. They tend to look at the existing corporate IT culture as limiting. Thus they work around the obstacles. The article then presumes that this activity is wrong, just as the RIAA and MPAA automatically assume that P2P is wrong because it doesn't fit their view of the world.
"People in my country have less these days, yet we are told the young are spoilt."
I see why you're having such a hard time understanding this.
You seem to think that "spoilt" = having stuff. If you'd bothered to ask, I suspect many of the people who think you're spoiled think that not because of the amount of stuff you have, but because of the sense of entitlement that is practically dripping off of your posts on the subject.
You see, it's not about the stuff, it's about the attitude that you think you deserve something you haven't yet earned. If your posts are any indication, that may be why people around you think you're spoiled.
So essentially...
Instead of Babyboomers vs GenX, we now have GenX vs Millennials (let us pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that this lame term dies with this article). Yes, there's some new fangled technology thrown in as a MacGuffin, but essentially this is just: "oh there's a generation gap".
Thanks.
News at 11.
Getting the same as everyone else isn't a privilege dipshit.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
"Getting the same as everyone else isn't a privilege dipshit."
Is that really how you want to do this? You get proven wrong about your obvious feelings of entitlement, going so far as to give a textbook definition of entitlement in your post, and now you're going to take issue with what a "privilege" is.
I don't think you could have demonstrated that you're a petulant brat with an inflated sense of entitlement any more effectively if you tried.
I just point out how your post is semantically just plain wrong, and you go on a victory dance. What a twat.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
"I just point out how your post is semantically just plain wrong"
And you were wrong. Crying like a bitch about it doesn't change it, and just proves my point even more effectively. Keep throwing a tantrum while trying to pretend you're not a petulant brat.
"and you go on a victory dance"
See above.
"What a twat."
Why are you introducing yourself now?
Guys, look, even I take my cell phone to work.
But what does your cell phone talk to? That's a real issue with WiFi-enabled cell phones. I haven't seen a report of this yet, but clearly one could create an iPhone-based attack which looked for vulnerable WiFi networks and attacked them. Just carrying an iPhone with unapproved software to a workplace with WiFi creates a security risk. An external attacker might not be able to get inside the building, but with an iPhone as a Trojan horse...
Sounds weird to me ... and to most Milennium generation employees.
As a liberated individual you control whatever you have access to, right? And it's up to those companies to negotiate for whatever they want to happen on their networks, right?
Besides ... if I can't connect to Skype, Facebook, and Youtube I should be compensated! And I should *always* be able to connect my PDA, my IPod, my USB stick, and my own laptop. So there!
I've seen these kids come into the workplace, be given a standard workstation, and then spend half their first day customizing it all to heck. No one wants to hear your odd little noise when you get e-mail, even if all your friends think it is a riot. Animated menus vs standard menus? Does it really matter? And that's just the pieces they can modify.
I've honestly overheard conversations during work hours as the younger folks try to find ways around the various internal update programs that are installed. And these aren't just quick 'Do you know how to do it?' type things. These are hour long rants about how they can't get their slingbox to work over the corporate network so they can watch their shows and how they can't get their chat clients to work due to firewall settings.
At no time do I hear "They won't let me have Application X to do my job." All I hear is the goodies they want to use on the company computers.
And that, my friends, is what I mean by boundries and entitlement. They just don't realize that the company is there to make money and they're working to help the company make said money. The company really doesn't care about their social issues during work hours. Or on the company equipment, which is also in place to help the company make money.
Except "everyone else" doesn't get what you claim, nor ever have.
Lets see..
List of stuffs that is not standard on my machine, and that I have installed myself:
Opera
Firefox
BFilter (ad filtering proxy)
Stickies (http://www.zhornsoftware.co.uk/)
PuTTY (needed for some of my work, and used to connect to my server at home)
Python (great for automating stuff)
NX Client
Notepad2
VIM
Gimp
Sumatra PDF (Because Adobe Reader 6 kills opera and firefox)
We do not have Administrator access, just ordinary user access, and stuff usually need to be installed under our user directory. Most of those tools are used daily.
It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
Since the poster is essentially complaining about older generations, and really demonstrating his own inflated sense of entitlement...
It would seem that he is proving, rather than disproving, the point of the article.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I'm in my mid 20's and am low man on the totem pole where I work. Sick day today so you guys can't rip on me for Slashdotting at work.
During the course of a normal business day I barely get a chance to sit down or take a lunch break; let alone fuck with the rarely-used computer at my desk. My company likes to handle tech support in a face-to face manner. So I'm running around the building all day fixing things on other people's computers. I just find it hilarious that others my age and in my profession have that much time on their hands.
The game.
Allow me to use Putty and don't use a whitelist firewall. Thats all I need :-)
They pose an increasing risk because they'll use all their devices on your company's network, but they're more security aware than older employees?
That's such an oxymoron. It's like the article is likening using open-source and social software with snorting coke off a dead hooker's tits. Oh, but they won't sleep with the hooker!
I strongly disagree!
I've rarely seen anyone under 40 install bonzii buddy or webshots and other such spywares on their office computer. The majority of work comes from fixing the security snafus of older employees. I just don't see how using firefox and pidgin can be a more of a security risk than IE and AOL.
They're using their grammar skills there.
You can create a runas link with a /savecred flag. You manually type the password once, and it remembers the passwor d for later use. No need to include it in the cmd line or in a bat file.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
I have one of them there younguns on my network (receptionist), and she managed to install random crapware onto a terminal server on 3 separate occasions. I don't know how she does it, because it's locked down fairly tight, but I'm sure it's from myspace or whatever friendster clone the kids are using these days. Anyway, she's off the terminal server and running a local Linux now. Her manager wanted me to lock her down to where she couldn't do anything, but I felt bad for her, since reception isn't such a stellar job to begin with. Plus, she's kind of wild and not too discreet, so I sometimes get to see some boobies on her screen, heh. Good times, good times. I actually covered for her the first two times and just cleaned up her mess as quick as I could, but on the third one, her manager started getting popups saying such and such dll wouldn't load, and the dll supposedly existed in the receptionists home directory. I couldn't do much about that one..
In a few days, if come back and re-read this thread, I think you'll realize that generally you've come across as a self-righteous complainer. Frankly, until I read this post, I'd pretty much written you off as twerp with an entitlement mentality. Pays to keep reading, I guess.
If you take a moment to think about it, you'll realize that most people feel like they've gotten the short end of it--just like you do. Us whiney middle-aged guys had problems back in that day, too. Problems that seemed just as big to us as yours do to you.
Take it from someone just a few years older than yourself: stop worrying about what your life situation "should be" and dig in to make it what it can be. Strike out and find somewhere that your skills are appreciated, find a job you enjoy and can take pride in, and move on. Do your best to put aside your anger (however justified) and move on with your life. ANyone can complain about how life's unfair (and life IS unfair, there's no way around that) -- only a few can rise above their circumstances and choose to move on.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
I got told once that by me changing the toolbars in explorer in my own profile I was "changing the configuration of the computer, and therefore violating company policy". With a straight face. Yeah, I didn't stay long.
I'm now a network & system admin for one of the largest and most successful companies in IT. If you don't like where you work, move and quit bitching. If you're good, they'll convince you to stay.
throw new NoSignatureException();
First rule of security design is always to make undesired actions either impossible, or at least very difficult and very obviously against the rules.
Half of the time that companies whine about their employees running unauthorized software, there are very few barriers in place to, you know, prevent them from doing that, maybe?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
When did abuse become Insightful? Try spending a week on the streets in winter, in the pouring rain and then tell me the homeless have it easy. If you're worried about them spending the money on alcohol, buy them a fucking coffee instead, or go help out in a soup kitchen.
The wealth divide in the UK is widening, there are fewer women directors of companies than ten years ago, we helped start an illegal war just recently, so there are plenty of things to complain about. Just because some places have things worse, does not mean I am going to keep quiet.
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
Beautiful.
Maybe... just maybe... you have a point. But if so, the boomer generation should emphatically NOT be saying Gen X and Millenials are lazy self-entitled pansies. Instead Boomers should be saying - We're sorry, we collected more intergenerational economic rents than we should have, and kept doing it for too long. We are the arrogant and greedy generation. Now that we are "rich" on our children, grand children, and great-grand-children's backs, how can we transfer some of that wealth back to later generations and ease your transition into economic sustainability?
kthx
I see...so its ok to have to suffer for your screw ups? You think you are entitled to a tax cut. Well I think you aren't. You haven't given us any money that supports the college education that we are "entitled" to. Do you honestly think that public high schools are "entitlements"? You got it too...so aren't you "entitled"? Why should I support your tax cut that you are "entitled" to. I'm pretty sure that the American dream didn't start with "after you pay your $50,000 college loan". I'm pretty damn sure I work alot harder learning at college and doing problem sets than you do at your job. After all, the average worker screws around for 2 hours a day. Well I'm in class for 20 hours a week and then I'm doing homework for another 30. Seems like I'm "entitled" to a tax cut or an education grant since I "work" more than you? Does that logic sound familiar? Oh, and just so you know thinking you are above someone just because you are older is ENTITLEMENT DUMBASS.
Um, if you're responding to my post, could you try taking your meds first, then try again?
If you're not responding to me, then why are you responding to me?
I really don't see what your point is, since ll you did was throw out straw men (look it up, you have no idea what it means) and insult people.
Any chance you could try again and leave the logical fallacies, insults, and total lack of coherent thought out?
I thought I would share, the AC most of you are ignoring posted the following
"You lose your bet to a degree. Not stupid, you belong with the freaking selfish baby boomer assholes. Just because you claim to be born in 1978 (hey, on the internet no-one knows you're a dog, right?) doesn't mean shit. You're a relic, a dinosaur.
You think you're entitled to MY oxygen? All we want is the same as everyone before us got - that which is OUR RIGHT. Sure, call it entitlement, but only as far as you're entitled to keep breathing."
How can I refute such a quality argument?
First though
"You lose your bet to a degree"
No I don't. As your idiot self said "Just because you claim to be born in 1978 (hey, on the internet no-one knows you're a dog, right?)". So you're not the original AC. Prove otherwise or fuck off.
Second, I would hope that the AC who actually posted originally wouldn't be such a pathetic basement dwelling loser that they would keep attacking me instead of considering they were wrong.
Of course you could be that kind of basement dwelling loser, so if you are, please let me know so I can admit you won the bet.
You need to focus on reading comprehension. I did not say I was bitter about my student loans or my taxes. Those things are the cost of my lifestyle... the one I chose.
"and then you claim victory when he throws the tantrum which you baited him into."
FUCK YOU. Seriously.
That is exactly the kind of thinking that allows people to avoid being responsible for their actions.
I didn't goad his ass into ANYTHING. If he is incapable of controlling himself, he shouldn't be posting. His "tantrum" comes from his childishness and lack of self control, so blaming it on me is moronic on its face. He got pissy because he was wrong, nothing else.
People are responsible for their own actions when they become adults. You and OP may learn that when you get there, but until then, fuck off. Your willingness to blame anyone but OP for that loser's inability to engage in dialog is a clear indicator that your opinion is worthless.
So his generation is people born 1970-1995, say, and the generation before would be 1945-1970 (post war generation = 'baby boomers'). When you do the math right, you find that he could have entered university after 1988 up to and including now (and for a few years). Hence previous generation. There isn't one generation for every year, you know.
I happen to be one of these "young people", so forgive me if I'm unable to remain objective here.
But going from "us[ing] your corporate network to run most any device, technology or social networking software they can get their hands on" does not automatically equate to "Pose[ing an] Increasing Risk to Networks". It's a loaded phrase to begin with and portrays young people as literally connecting any device they can find to the network for no reason whatsoever. Here we actually have more problems caused by older folks. Most of the kids know how to troubleshoot their own "most any device". And personally? I hate myspace and facebook. The only social network I care about at the moment is LinkedIn and it's very low maintenance.
The very story title belies a failure to understand security. The network itself is unimportant. It's what's connected to it that matters. But the headline made it obvious that the submitter is not even aware of this distinction.
I could (and have) just easily described older IT folks as pointlessly draconian for no reason.
Show me the research that conclusively equates networking sites or personal devices directly to security risk. Hell, show me that there's any benefit at all to expiring passwords or blanket bans on personal equipment. Most of the major security breeches I've read about were due to leaving a non-personal laptop full of information somewhere it could be stolen. Not personal devices [cue dramatic music] "connected to the network". I would guess 95% of all employees here have "personal devices" "connected to the network" up to and including the CEO. iPods are scary!
It's not the device connected to the network that matters, it's the person using it. If you don't trust the person to responsibly use personal devices at work, then why do you trust them to use company property? Both likely grant the same level of access to information that should be protected. What difference does it make if they connect an iPod?
I know two developers here that work on personal machines and both are older than me!
If you ask me this article is full of bias and fail - and admittedly, so does this post, but at least I don't try to hide it.
Question everything
I was born before 1980 and I am starting a second career. Last time around paying my dues meant an entry-level salary (that could actually support me) and actual experience and mentoring, even though I only had a high school education. (And compared to my peers, I had a relatively shitty employer.)
Starting out now means an 'internship' where I'll work for less than minimum wage for the privilege of fetching coffee for people making more than market. Nevermind that I have higher education now (4.0, decent school, BS, going for masters). Nevermind that I have experience working. Nevermind my excellent references (which most employers never even bother to call). Nevermind that they talk about me doing IT (where I have years of experience), but don't want to pay me anything for it. (There are exceptions. My wife's company gives kids everything on a silver platter - people with years of experience don't get what they offer there, but then again they're a startup with shitloads of VC.)
I had one employer offer me a position where I would do IT stuff (where I already have experience) for what was obviously an empty promise of experience in my second field, a salary below minimum, stock options (that I could not possibly afford to buy out given the salary) for a 90-day temporary position.
AFAICT, it's a feedback loop where employees were burned by employers (loyalty means nothing anymore) so employees have no loyalty which means employers are better off hiring experience than creating it. The end result is that people without experience are much, much worse off than they used to be.
It's spelled 'Millennials.'
This article reminds me of my network security lecturer. He never used words like "hacker", it was always "teenagers". The man-in-the-middle was always referred to as "the teenager", for example. I was never really sure if he was trying to be funny or if he had some unresolved personal issues.
For the record, I'm 23 and somewhere between your attitude (read: good days) and the OP's (read: bad days, putting out fires that I didn't create, which were the results of fires I did create, so I can get to putting out my own fires).
Lately I've started to take on the mentality that I'm going to do my best in spite of, and sometimes to spite, myself. At the end of the day, I just want to own my technical domain; I want to beat the living crap out of it and own it in every regard, with or without recognition. I've found myself so much more 'free' when I don't expect recognition and I'm only doing it for myself, my principles, and love of the field.
Except when I'm stuck programming VBA. I hate VBA and Access databases. Someone else can own them.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
It's because you're such a fucking moron. Anything you don't want to let others have is "entitlement". FUCK YOU. It's MY RIGHT to free healthcare. MY RIGHT to higher education. Just because you call it "entitlement" doesn't make it so, any more so than you're "entitled" to your rights.
Any chance you could grow a brain before continuing?
Ok, I am 26 and fit into this category.
I am a unix (solaris, aix, linux) systems administrator and my job is being the darth vader of unix land essentially. That being said, yes, I installed unauthorized software on my windows workstation.
The software? Firefox, putty, cygwin, gvim, winscp.
Un-authorized? Sort of, but only if I can't prove it doesn't apply to my job. If your policy doesn't allow people to install tools they know to be useful to their job, your policy is wrong. Now since I am an admin of sorts, i can understand the iron fist reasoning for tracking what is installed and where. But the same reason I need putty is the same reason I as an admin can't sit there and easily judge if user xyz really needs app foo.
A chat client? Yeah, good luck convincing me on that, but installing emacs or gvim to edit files? As long as you ask beforehand why not? Then I know, and more importantly I know who installed app xyz. Isn't IT supposed to be a cooperative venture and not adversarial?
I can't imagine I am alone being my age and with this attitude here. But whatever, flame away.
actully its spelt millennials becuz the 20-somethings have not discovered the shift key on there keybds yet nor punctuashun or how to spell props not to mention the mndlss abbrevn lol chat l8r
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
...your music totally SUCKS also!
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
And whilst I agree with you about the benefits system in the UK is "easy", the fact is that there are several million British shirkers out there sat on their backsides in front of the TV all day spending their "dole" money on cigarettes and booze, never once considering getting a job and actually putting something back into the system.
That means that a lot of honest, hard-working people like me get stung by endless stealth taxes in order to pay for those lazy bastards because the fact is we're an easy target because we haven't got the guts to rise up and do anything about it.
I have nothing against immigrants to the UK (my father was one and I'm only half-English although born here) but where is the sense in a system that pays dole money to native citizens while hundreds of thousands of (mainly East European) migrants come here and fill up all of the empty jobs? And what really gets my back up are the loud-mouthed racist Brits who drone on about immigrants are usually *THE VERY SAME* people drawing dole money???
In my experience, you Latinos seem to be far more adept at just accepting things as being the way that they are and still just get on and have the best time possible....
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Has anyone considered the possibiity of a conspiracy theory here?
After all, anyone with a few years experience in the IT industry soon realises that Symantec products are bloated pieces of overpriced crap that do absolutely nothing apart from stealing CPU cycles and forcing you into a subscription program that is virtually impossible to leave.
Therefore, by furthering the cause of a younger generation of people into the IT industry, not only do they have a multitude of spotty oiks who only peer up from their mobile phones/iWanks into the real world for a maximum of five minutes per day, but also an entire generation of Apple/Nokia-worshipping zealots who can be easily subverted into worshipping another false god at the "Temple Of Norton" also?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
dude, if you need to get something done at work and their retarded bass-ackwards network doesn't do it for you, then plug something in and get the job done! that's what it's there for. any idiot who thinks that's bad is an idiot.
I'm surprised no one's said it yet...
But somebody get those hooligans off my LAN!
He's right - you're an ass. If I saw my parents' generation reap the benefits of free education and dentistry, then stop paying for it when they got old, I'd be pissed too. It's not entitlement to expect the same deal the previous generation got. If it is, then the behavior of the boomers is just rapacious, which makes entitlement downright civilized.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
mod parent up. it's not a troll it's the clearest explanation of the problem with the OP in the thread.
Things change. I don't treat my youngest son exactly the same, nor provide for him exactly the same, as I did his older brothers. Partly because he's different, partly because our environment is different, partly because *I'm* different.
I'm guessing the OP is old enough to vote. Part of the problem then?
Damburger- as to respect. If you require every interaction to prove deserving of respect then you'll forever wander a lost zone where nothing is real. You sense this and you call it cynicism. It is not. It's just simple misanthropy.
Older employees are more likely to forget their passwords, hence locking themselves out of the network.
--- Worst tagline ever.
While I don't 100% disagree with what you tried to argue, there is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning.
Let me illustrate:
Let's say we have 3 countries, country 1 is piss poor, country 2 is moderately wealthy and country 3 has all the shit it could ever wish for. Now a person living could complain about "meh, we have free basic healthcare but no dentical care!". Another person, living in country 2 could argue "don't bitch, at least you have free basic healthcare!"... but then a peson from country 1 could say "wth, you both are idiots... you can have a decent meal tonight!"...
What I'm saying is that, just because UK has a better health system than the US, doesn't mean one can't be critical about its spending or priorities. I live in the Netherlands, and we have excellent healthcare system, one almost all countries could only dream about, but does that mean we can't be critical on how that or other money is spend?
You can't argue "stop whining cos you have it easy" if you are able to connect to slashdot and post a comment... cos the same goes for you... and anyone else for that matter. There will always be someone who is worse of than you... so f-ing what? That's not an argument, it's a diversion.
Anyway, I'm a CEO of up and coming company here and while I like money like everyone else, I more than gladly share my income with the state so that other less fortunate people can eat tomorrow and sleep somewhere dry tonight. And regardless, in the Netherlands the education system has been changed from "state pays for it all" to "you will be in big debts when you are done" just like the UK and I don't support that policy one bit... just like GP.
There is nothing wrong with being critical, regardless of your current state of wealth or that of your country.
"This should be fun, and by fun, I mean a wholly depressing insight into the cognitive ability of some grown adults."
1) if you're going to post AC, why bother referencing your own posts in the first person?
2) you goaded him into it. You reframed his argument and then refused to listen to his point of clarification. Yeah, so he called you a dipshit. Yeah, so you were calling him personally a spoiled brat, when the argument was about his generation and he made valid points. You know, that's the kind of behavior i would have expected from a member of 'his generation'.
3) you're now also a hypocrite. keep going and maybe we'll find something we can convict you of, too..
You should read a book on this very subject called Age of Abundance by Brink Lindsey. It's fascinating.
Libertas in infinitum
And so you refuted none of it? That's what I thought. Fucking moron.
Exactly - all the guy's asking for is the same deal that his parents generation got. They refuse this to him and to add insult to injury, call him spoiled in the process! If that's entitlement, then god help us all for being so "entitled" as to demand equal treatment.
One of the best posts I have seen in a long time, thanks. +1 imaginary mod points.
Barbara Felden claims prior art on the flip phone, sues Motorola, Nokia.
Many studies are geared to mark younger generations as less able in the market place. I believe that older generations like the hippies and yuppies have been targeted the same way in their younger years. I hope that we can stop this nonsense and treat people as individuals.
Sure - but you're a special case. Same goes for almost all military sites I'm aware of. The banking industry is highly regulated. They're concerned about more than just some employee using "unauthorized" software and crashing a PC, or creating/saving files on the network share that nobody else can open or view properly. They have a very real concern that someone might slip software in the environment that's designed to steal or leak out financial information.
In particular, I'm curious about #4, "Right to Choose Software." I just find it very hard to imagine anybody, even today's brats with their dumbed-down SATs and resulting inflated scores, answering "yes" to the question "Do you believe you have the right to use the software of your choice on your work computer, regardless of its source?" I suspect leading questions, dishonestly summarized for your reading enjoyment.
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
"It's MY RIGHT to free healthcare. MY RIGHT to higher education. Just because you call it "entitlement" doesn't make it so, any more so than you're "entitled" to your rights."
That kind of thinking explains why you posted AC.
"Just because you call it "entitlement" doesn't make it so"
And just because you call it a right doesn't make it so.
"Any chance you could grow a brain before continuing?"
Any chance you're going to come up with an argument that isn't "I want it I want it I want it, I'm going to crybaby and call names until I get it WAHHHHHHHH!!!"?
"He's right - you're an ass."
And he's a whiny. petulant brat with a grossly out of proportion sense of entitlement.
"If I saw my parents' generation reap the benefits of free education and dentistry, then stop paying for it when they got old, I'd be pissed too"
Please point to any post where I said being "pissed" about that is a problem? You don't seem to understand what "sense of entitlement" means.
"It's not entitlement to expect the same deal the previous generation got. "
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it means, and saying "nuh uh" repeatedly doesn't change that.
"If it is,"
Oh it is, but I thought you just said it wasn't? Make up your mind.
"then the behavior of the boomers is just rapacious, which makes entitlement downright civilized."
That's just stupid. Someone else gets something you don't, so acting like a brat is "civilized"? A spoiled brat might think so, which explains why you think that way.
"If that's entitlement, then god help us all for being so "entitled" as to demand equal treatment."
You're not demanding equal treatment moron. You're not demanding all the negatives, you're just bitching because you don't get all the positives.
Get it? I know you don't, but you need to try.
That's not equal treatment, and your inability to understand that goes a long way toward explaining why you have such an inappropriate sense of entitlement.
It didn't change my karma one bit. It did, however, reinforce how badly I got into your head. It must suck to know you can't out debate me and you can't mod me away, so you have to sit there in anonymous shame knowing I crushed you.
"Fucking moron."
Mea Culpa, thanks for signing your post, you do appear to be the original AC.
"And so you refuted none of it?"
Why refute it AGAIN? I'd already shut you the fuck up with my previous refutation AC, that's why your loser ass descended to AC-ville, I shut you the fuck up and you resorted to insults.
Once again, no argument, no refutation. You really don't have a leg to stand on, do you?
Oh, here you are again, internet tough guy, hacking at the ACs. You go girl. This guy has a point - it was considered a right in the UK. Now that right has been taken away. And you have no argument. Again.
Chase them down with wifi scanning software and a Palm or smartphone. It's like playing Marco-Polo at work. Actually, it _is_ playing Marco-Polo at work.
"I want the exact same thing that the previous generation got. No more, no less."
You're a liar.
"Guess us black people shouldn't have demanded our "entitlement" to freedom, same as whites, right? "
I see, you really are stupid, I was just using it as an epithet, but you apparently are a moron. If you want what they had, "No more, no less." then you're going to get lynchings. Please give me your address so I can come over and give you what you want.
"So stupid you can't spell you?"
I would much rather that be what you choose to attack, as it makes it clear you can't refute anything else in my argument. OOOH you so got me, I made a typo.
Meanwhile, the best argument you can come up with doesn't even make sense and has been crushed by me repeatedly. I made a typo, and you're intellectually incapable if forwarding a coherent argument.
I'll take a typo all fucking day, as I can use spellcheck, sadly for you though, there's no "idiotic post check" to prevent you from displaying your stupidity in public.
"Now that right has been taken away."
Rights are inherent. They can't be "taken away". So either you still have it, or it wasn't a right.
You decide which situation you want to admit to and thus be a liar, I'll wait.
"And you have no argument. Again."
Sorry, but "They had it and I don't, and I want it" isn't much of an argument either genius, and I destroyed your idiotic attempt to claim the entitlements you're whining about were rights.
So you have no argument, but you're also a liar. And even assuming I have no argument, that's still puts me ahead of you.
The problem is, and you're apparently very stupid not to realize this, I NEVER CLAIMED IN ANY WAY YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE THOSE THINGS YOU'RE WHINING ABOUT. Go ahead slut, check. Re-read the posts you're too stupid to understand, and you'll realize it's true.
What I said, FROM THE BEGINNING is that whining like a bitch about it like you and others have make you appear entitled, which people find distasteful.
See, you were just too stupid to understand it, it was there the whole time. Perhaps if you spent more time reading for comprehension and less time blathering about what you want, you'd have avoided looking like a fucking moron. Again.
See now dumbass?
It's not "you shouldn't have them" it "whining like a 4 year old about not having them makes you look like a cunt".
Which you do.