Slashdot Mirror
eBay Australia Makes PayPal Mandatory
An anonymous reader writes "Australian press are reporting that eBay is using Australia as a guinea pig to trial a new policy where all other modes of payment are barred except for PayPal. If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets."
It looks like it is time to look for alternate online auction houses.
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
Well, I guess its definitely time to look for an alternative, and pull my highly rated account from ebay :(
I refuse to use paypal due to having bad experiences with it in the past.
In Australia i'd say paypal for paying for ebay auctions is hardly use AT ALL since in Australia its far easier and quicker and cheaper to pay using direct deposit with netbanking. That is THE standard pay to pay here. Why use a middle man? And now to be FORCED to use one? I don't think so.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
I refuse to use Paypal because I am not convinced it is covered by banking regulations. These may not be perfect (understatement of year to date) but are surely better than nothing. Can anybody explain to me in what way entrusting funds to Paypal offers any real and accessible legal protection against fraud?
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
From a sellers perspective I can see the desire to take other forms of payment, but as a buyer there is massive appeal for the use of PayPal. With how its integrated into eBay it makes conflict resolution much simpler and gives you a means of tracking and proving receipt of funds.
The only thing I would want to see added to the service is an escrow option. But the idea of sending a wire transfer, check or money order to some unknown entity on the internet sounds like a bad idea.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Ebay's success comes because it's a moderator - a broker in a sale. It connects two parties together, and nothing more. When it does that, Ebay is golden. It's UI is nice, it's search feature generally works, and that's why it's a multi-billion dollar corp.
But if they cram paypal down my throat, I'll swallow something else. I'm already at the point where Ebay is my LAST resort, since their ratings have been so thoroughly gamed I have no idea who I'm really dealing with, anymore.
Forcing paypal? No way. I refuse. What's the next halfway decent auction house? Truthfully, I've already moved much of my online purchasing to froogle.com....
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
That's fucked up. So now, not only do I have to pay eBay a fee for listing my item, I also have to pay PayPal a fee to get my money? No thanks.
Except paypal fucks the sellers.
I sold an item for over $1000 USD on ebay. Recieved payment by paypal. Sent item off. Payment went into bank account.
A few weeks later paypal contacts me saying that I was paid using a stolen paypal account, and to please return the money.
How about, ummm, get fucked? To this day paypal still wants to get this money back from me, so I refuse to use them. Its not my fault paypal has terrible security and lets everyone's accounts be phished and sellers get screwed by this?
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Firstly, although PayPal may have a banking license in switzerland, it is not a bank per se and the Australian Reserve Bank will not guarantee my money with paypal if any.
Secondly, As a bank i have recourse to my money when i demand it. Period.
With paypal i have to jump through many of their fraud hoops which assumes, as a recepient, am guilty of money laundering unless i prove myself to be innocent. That is not how a bank operates. And if a bank will not pay a lawfully presented demand for payment, i can force the bank into liquidation single-handedly. (Long before that the Reserve bank will intervene, but that is beside the point).
Thirdly, PayPal does not follow banking laws in opening accounts with it. Not even in fact the [in]famous SNOW accounts of Citi in early 1980s in US (Negotiated Order of Withdrawal).
Fourthly, if PayPal goes under, who will repay my money with them.
I think the ARb should intervene and either force Paypal to be a "bank" (which is unprofitable for them), or close down.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I already canceled my account since they were forcing me to provide PayPal as a payment option. I really don't understand this. There are SO many people that just don't trust PayPal, So MANY horror stories that PayPal has a stigma against it. Even people that have PayPal now and have never been burned complain that PayPal in addition to the eBay fees cuts into their profits margins too much.
I will never create a PayPal account to take money from people. I just won't do it. So now I cannot sell anything on eBay anymore. Well if eBay can survive just from the Power Sellers, then that is what will happen, but it won't be a place for the average joe to sell his stuff.
I must also say that since eBay burned me and pissed me off, I have not even searched eBay for any products in over a month. I use to check pricegrabber.com, pricewatch.com, cdw.com, and a few other sites in addition to eBay. I don't even check eBay at all now.
Good Luck eBay, your going to need it.
I have a bother that worked for eBay from the beginning. He loved it until they bought PaPal and credits the move with his eventual leaving eBay.
What do you think would have happened if it had been purchased with a stolen credit card, check book, etc? Same thing. PayPal is not acting any different then any other group in that position, in fact the have a legal responsibility to do what they do. Ownership of stolen funds or goods does not change when they change hands for a second time. Pawn shops get burned in this manor a lot.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets.
If they roll it out in the EU, this could fall foul of competition laws; the credit card companies/banks could presumably complain of being shut out, given Ebay's near total dominance.
(Obvious the same could apply in other countries, but the EU currently seems keenest on actually enforcing competition laws.)
Sounds good in theory, but the reality is that Paypal sucks. hard.
I'll see your hokum and raise you a boondoggle.
So, let's build a list of alternatives.
Been using it since its inception and have yet to have any problems. On the other hand I have seen bounced checks, fake/stolen credit card numbers etc.
I know people have had problems with PayPal, and I'm not saying its perfect. However I've yet to see a better option.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
If its mandatory, make it free (for use on payment for ebay items, charging for other uses is OK). How can they justify a double charge?
Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
..."monopoly money"?
No. If you receive stolen funds, you are under a legal obligation to return the money.
"If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it."
In this case, you are the merchant. You dont get to keep the stolen money. Sorry.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting. And this is PRECISELY what is the problem with paypal.
Look up paypalsucks.com and other related sites.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
I've already emailed a complaint through their contact system. I've had many happy transactions trough bank transfer from both a buyer and seller perspective. This is the ENTIRE reason for the rating system - so you know who you are dealing with before the transaction. I will cancel my account tomorrow and simply buy new over the internet. With the overshopping that goes on on ebay, I'll probably even save some money and get new stuff rather than second hand. Ebay is going the way of Microsoft, way way down under.
consider coffee a lubricant that helps one penetrate the coding zone
"If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets." Of course they'll be successful, all other modes of payment are barred!
Taking a slight tangent, but I think this is a prime example of one the web 1.0 heroes turning evil. The original management have ceased running the show and we have new management wanting to eke out every dime possible using strong-arm tactics like this one.
Contrast this with Amazon, Google & Yahoo whose operating ethos is still relatviely benign (especially when compared to Microsoft or Apple). Getting to my point... I think Google at the moment is not evil, but you can bet your bottom dollar when Larry & Sergey leave the stage, Google will turn evil, just like Ebay.
I'll see your hokum and raise you a boondoggle.
Not exactly. When a credit card holder disputes a debit, the bank contacts the merchant first and asks him to verify the debit he made. It also gives the merchant details about who disputed what, etc, plus a specific time.
Within the time, if the merchant cannot produce proof, the cardholder's complaint is sustained.
At NO time has the bank the legal authority to debit or even block access to the funds in merchant's account.
This is different from paypal, which is under no obligation to contact you, can and will block your account, and withdraw funds from it without due process.
And that is why paypal is different from a bank.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
In the UK (3x as many people as Australia) I got an email to say that Paypal *must* be offered as a payment option, not that it must be the only payment option. So I imagine they are testing different policies in different smaller markets. It makes sense to try to streamline it and get a few more % of each sale - eBay is still complicated compared to Amazon's sales process and Amazon seem to get away with taking almost 10%.
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
blam! the sound of eBay shooting itself in the foot.
.au that they will not dare make the same change to .com .co.uk etc.
as a buyer paypal has some good points - limited protection, traceability, etc.
but as a seller it sucks big time as just adds another set of fees to your sale.
eBay nicks nearly 5-10% of the sale price including paypal.
if they made paypal free and just part of the eBay service then there might not be so many arguments, but to enforce it and then make additional money is such a blatent money grab that this will backfire big time.
buyers may like it, but if there are no sellers then there will be no buyers. it will be interested to watch how the number of items for sale changes in ebay.au after this is enforced. anybody know how we can plot a graph of items for sale vs. date to track the impact?
I'm guessing that there will be such a negative impact in
from eBays point of view they are being pressurized to add more traceability into their system by law enforcement worried about fraud and fencing - so they are really between a rock and a hard place here.
one thing is certain - behind every internet giant is a number if "would bes" who will seize every opportunity to steal business, so eBay will have to tread carefully here.
Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
Half right. Its almost always the merchant.
And guess what, as the ebay seller, YOU are the merchant.
Doesn't eBay -own- PayPal...?!?
Well, forcing your customers to use your subsidiary company (or any supplier, for that matter) sounds pretty anti-competitive to me... and - if the Aussie comtetition watchdog barks loudly enough, eBay may have to play fair again.
I'm sure credit card vendors will scream "Fowl!" soon...
I hope they will do this, and then realise thats its a big mistake when customers go elsewhere. Its a great opportunity for a competitor to steal some of their market.
I understood that by law, merchants are required to accept legal tender to pay a debt. In other words, there's no way they can prohibit people paying cash once a debt exists (i.e. they have one the auction).
Admittedly the above is from my recall of High School business studies, and IANALADHAT (I am not a lawyer and damned happy about that).
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
FWIW, I have consistently found that those who only accept Paypal are the worst sellers, because they are high volume, interested in streamlining a process to the point that
(*) eBay Rule Number One has something to do with overuse of punctuation*****!!!!!!!!! *RARE*
If someone sends you a cheque, you don't send the goods until it clears. Once it's fully cleared, the bank is at fault for clearing a fraudulent cheque so you keep the money.
If it bounces, you don't ship anything, you don't get charged for depositing a fraudulent cheque, you may get investigated for it but if you can prove how you got hold of it you won't have any negative effects.
To process credit card transactions you need a merchant account, it is the merchant's responsibility to verify the legitimacy of the card. If it's fraudulent and they clear the payment, it's their fault and you'l still get the funds.
You can also receive cash in person, it's your responsibility to ensure the cash isn't fake. If you accept it, it's your loss.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
eBay Poland is still dead.
After introducing fees for their auctions, they dropped from their 3rd place with a good chance to become 2nd to being somewhere along with the two last places - auction sites that are subject-specific, collector auctions. Very few desperate sellers use it, and over 90% offers 'from Poland' are listed as 'e-book, electronic delivery only, free shipping world-wide', foreign auctions.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
According to the Slashdot post and TFA upon which it is based:
"eBay is using Australia as a guinea pig to trial a new policy where all other modes of payment are barred except for PayPal."
However, according to eBay's own memo:
"From 21 May 2008, all items listed on eBay.com.au must offer PayPal as one of the payment methods available to buyers."
So which is it?
On the one hand, there's nothing to see here. On the other hand, the response from eBay's Alistair McGibbon (source of possibly the lamest superhero quote of all time) doesn't seem to repudiate the reporter's understanding.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Ebay is pretty much THE auction site on the net, and they own paypal. this sounds like leveraging a monopoly in one market to effect an advantage in an unrelated market and anti-competitive behaviour to me.
the EU has given microsoft plenty of shit over the years for anti-competitive behaviour, it will be interesting to see if/what kind of flack ebay attracts over this.
I use eBay occasionally but my email address and bank details are barred from PayPal, so if this happens I won't be able to use eBay at all.
I'm barred because I (as a seller) was scammed and left £300 out of pocket - when I tried to complain to PayPal, I couldn't even get through to a human being, and they automatically assumed that I was the fraudster, and shut down my account. Ironically, they were slower at shutting down the scammer's account on both eBay and PayPal, despite my attempted warnings, and they went on to scam a few other people before they were finally barred.
By the way, is there a decent alternative to eBay, or have they got a complete monopoly?
To process credit card transactions you need a merchant account, it is the merchant's responsibility to verify the legitimacy of the card. If it's fraudulent and they clear the payment, it's their fault and you'l still get the funds.
Er... if -I- get a merchant account, -I- am the merchant. So if a fraudulent payment clears then if its the merchants problem, that would make it MY problem.
You are seriously deluded if you think otherwise. Just go ask any merchant... (ie walk into any store or restaurant and ask them who foots the bill if they accept a stolen card. They're ALL merchants with merchant accounts.)
What does PayPal offer over credit card? Other than lacking legally mandated fraud protection...
How is this NOT a violation of the trade practices act?
Anyone know the right way to get the ACCC to investigate this?
I'm just a buyer, never sold anything, but will cancel my account out of principle
Note that "fully cleared" isn't when the money hits your account, it's about two weeks later when the cheque has been presented to the issuing bank.
The cheque fraud scammers rely on this and the bank WILL claw back the money. You're right that you probably won't get charged for depositing a fraudulent cheque in good faith, but you won't get to keep the money. At least that's how it works in the UK and US.
it's = it is
its = belonging to it
Anyone else here in aus have some ideas for good ones?
This was all over the afternoon papers as well.
The big question though - what are the decent alternatives to ebay in Australia?
the merchant is the CC company providing the funds.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
*giggles* hey ebay isn't the only ones using the .au as a testing ground. The .au has been a testing ground for alot of things, such as being dis-armed. We see all the good that has done watching the police videos with the cops being kicked around because they can't even defend themselves. As much as I hate paypal, I do find it useful when everything works. However when issues arise you might as well forget it. Paypal is still the best form of Payment to use on Ebay since it's all interconnected. Using another method of payment on ebay is generally alot of wasted time since ebay won't work with other processors.
Good-bye, eBay. (Once you roll this out here, that is.)
I agree with others above that the fees for paypal are a bit rich, since you pay a percentage to ebay already, then if you sell something small, less than $100 or so they charge you a dollar to withdraw your money! It all adds up.
The other good time for paypal is for foreign transactions where it costs a LOT to do a bank transfer to overseas and you need much information, paypal is very easy (although they rip you off on exchange rates also...) I think it is definitely wrong to make Paypal the ONLY way to pay and doubt it will stick.
like phosphorescent desert buttons singing one familiar song
i simply can't be ass'd doing it again, easier to just use gray's online or something.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
mind you credit/debit card companies do the same afacit and from what I can gather at least in the US money from a check can become availible to you before the check has actually finished it's way through the clearing system and the check can ultimately be rejected.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
If you force them out of business, then what do you do to take payments? I don't know the details of payment processing. All I do know is that if you want to do online payment processing through a bank, that means getting yourself a credit card machine, and that is expensive. I don't know all the details of why, perhaps in part because of all the regulations involved. At any rate, safe to say you don't just do a quick sign up online and start taking credit cards. There is money involved, a credit check, maybe a reserve account, etc.
Ok so, that leaves you no real easy way to take payments online. Checks are very insecure to the seller since they are easy to bounce. Money orders are very unpopular with buyers since it is a pain in the ass to have to go purchase them. There just isn't another system like Paypal I'm aware of.
I remember eBay in the pre Paypal days, and it was a huge pain. For one, it took much longer, since you were having a check or money order sent to you. If you took checks, which many buyers wanted, you either had to risk that the check was going to bounce, or you had to sit on it for over a week while you made sure everything cleared, which of course made everything take even longer. As a buyer, it was a pain in the ass if you wanted things to go out fast because you had to go to the post office or your bank to purchase a money order or certified check.
So, just be careful what you wish for. For all their faults, Paypal has been a nice equalizer allowing individuals to take online payment with no money upfront, no monthly fees, and percentage fees along the lines of a good credit card processor.
Not true in the US.
:(
Here's a US Treasury Dept. link from a comment I recently modded Informative:
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml
I cannot find the comment now, Slashdot's search function is too under-powered
Again people over overlooking the big picture. Search eBay Australia, you will see that most of them are putting their banking information or requesting bank deposit. This payment method has zero recourse, if the seller decides to keep the money and not send you the item, you are screwed. The rest of the world more or less prefers paypal anyway, but Australia is unique in that their preferred payment method is a source of fraud.
Any maybe it wasn't noticed by the feebay crying crowd, but Australia's sellers last year were forced to accept paypal if they offer paypal to anyone because their standard payment phrase was "paypal only for non-australians" which again was because they would sometimes have oodles of payment terms.
Huh? No. The credit card company is never the merchant. They handle money. Merchants sell things. The ebay seller is a merchant, but since Paypal isn't a CC company, things don't work the same way. If they were, the merchant would be screwed more often.
As I discovered to my cost recently, if you accept PayPal payment you are effectively also accepting Credit Card payments (via PayPal). Unless your sale qualifies for seller protection (mine arbitrarily didn't, and unless you check it's not easy to realise you're not covered), then you are totally open to something called 'chargeback'.
Chargeback is basically fraud protection - if someone's credit card is stolen they can recover any lost money. But where do you think this money comes from ? From the credit card issuing company ? From PayPal ? Nope - the fraudulent transactions are reversed, so the person who originally received payment ends up footing the loss. That's maybe all well and good when you are talking about large companies and small levels of fraud, but now with eBay we are talking about literally millions of small time sellers, and probably hundreds of thousands of fraudulent transactions.
What this means is that if you accept PayPal payment, unless you are very careful about being 'protected' (and even then, who knows how far that protection covers you) you will be totally liable for any credit card fraud that transpires when someone purchases from you. The chargeback can (and does) occur MONTHS after the original transaction.
I strongly advise everyone NOT to accept PayPal payments at all. If eBay is forcing PayPal onto sellers, then I recommend ditching eBay - the risk of fraud is too big. You might as well leave your items on the street with an honesty box.
So far, ebay has gotten away with running PayPal like a bank, but without having to meet the numerous and stringent restrictions and regulations that operating a banking institution demands (or even come close to them).
My hunch is that they haven't gotten the screws put to them yet because PayPal, so far, has been totally optional - there are other ways to pay.
The instant they force you to use PayPal, I'm betting the FDIC, SEC, maybe the IRS, possibly DHS (because of the money transfer service options), and hell, pretty much every federal financial agency, will come down on their head like a ton of bricks thrown from the fist of an angry God.
If they're smart, they'll abandon this and pretend they never thought of it.
my god you people miss the mark by a long shot. the merchant is the CC company providing the funds.
... but the *merchant* is ALWAYS you.
No. Sorry. You are the one way off the mark.
As someone who has owned a business I can assure you, the merchant is the *business owner*. The other party is typically called a "bank", "merchant bank", "merchant account provider", "acquiring bank", or "acquirer"
Now, from the "merchant account providers" point of view...
"In the Visa and Mastercard rules, the merchant's processing bank [merchant account provider] is 100% responsible for all the transactions that the merchant performs. This can leave the provider open to millions of dollars of potential losses if the merchant operates in an illegal or risky manner and generates many chargebacks. The providers pass this cost on to the merchant, but if the merchant is fraudulent or simply does not have the money, the provider must pay all the costs to make the card holder whole."
Which is probably what you are talking about. So, Yes, its absolutely true that THEY (the merchant account providers) are liable for any fraudulent charges, and THEY must cover it. If you, as a cardholder phone Visa and ask who pays if your card is stolen, they'll just tell you 'not you'. If you persist they'll tell you that (according to PCI DSS [Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard]) the cost is borne by the bank providing the merchant account ["merchant account provider"].
However, as it says in the above quote, while they are responsible, they *invariably* try to recoup that cost, plus fees, plus fines, from the merchant (that would be YOU). They only get stuck holding the bag and taking a loss, if they CAN'T get the money from you...and that only happens if you're insolvent, or you've fled the country, or something equally drastic. If you are an upstanding reputable business in good standing, they WILL pass that cost on to you, and you WILL pay.
So as far as your card issuer or VISA is concerned yes, the liability rests with the merchant account provider. But you're daft if you don't think they in turn pass that liability to you via your 'merchant account' agreement/contract, and collect on it vigorously.
Look it up.
... because they require a credit card to open an eBay account. I do not use credit cards and only have PayPal. So I have do my shopping at non-eBay sellers.
Duh!
... not repudiate.
I would strongly urge all OZ Ebayers to lodge a complaint online to the ACCC. I wouldn't be so worried if Paypal/Ebay didn't have carte-blanche to my accounts. But when they create a monoply like this and also increase the costs at the same time, while reducing the risk of financial security i think they really need to be taken to task and regulated just like any other financial institution's.
Lodge a complaint at (general complaints form):
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml?itemId=54217
This is what i (very hurriedly) wrote to give some an idea of what to lodge if they want to complain but aren't sure what to write:
Ebay as of 17th June 2008 is removing all forms of payment from being allowed in almost all auctions and is forcing all sellers (and buyers) to instead use their Paypal online debit/credit system. This not only creates a banking and auction house monopoly for Paypal, and by extension Ebay, it also greatly increases the costs to all sellers who then are forced to partially subsidize the payments from buyers in the new multiple fees introduced. More worryingly though is the fact that while all other forms of payment, including direct bank deposit, arguably the most popular form of fast and fee-free payment system used in Australia, will not be allowed, Paypal is not a regulated bank, and as such we are literally at the mercy of Ebay/Paypal with absolutely no guarantees of security for our accounts.
While Paypal and Ebay insist this is done to increase the safety of payments made for items purchased, there exists a long history of abuse from Paypal with regards to account freezes with no reasons provided, numerous cases of buyer fraud where items have been force ably and automatically refunded by Paypal to customers routinely claiming non-receipt of goods, debits for non-existent fees, etc. There is also virtually no form of arbitration when these events occur, with Paypal arbitrarily enforcing their will onto the consumers/sellers. Paypal also has the ability to withdraw funds from accounts and credit cards on a whim at any time, with no protection whatsoever to the consumer.
It seems that with this, and the Amazon news from a few days ago, some of the companies that experienced rapid growth during the first .com bubble by offering what the customer wants vs the old model of trying to control the market are now switching to the old model. They control enough of the market now that it probably seems safe to their board to do this, but they are forgetting how rapidly they themselves were able to grab market share, and seem to be missing the fact that if someone new moves into the space they are vacating, the market share that the new company takes will come almost entirely from their customer base. They should also keep in mind that it won't necessarily be a startup that moves into their space; Google, Yahoo and Microsoft are all contenders that could jump in and cause a massive shift in the market almost immediately.
I only by from local (same city) sellers and pay direct deposit of cash so this is just useless interference from the stupid suits upstairs. I think I'll be buying through the Quokka(local classified ads paper) from now on
I find I can usually find the item cheaper at a fixed price at amazon.com than I can at the current going "auction price" on eBay.
And with Amazon, I pay with my CC *DIRECTLY*, no shifty PayPal in the middle.
If some of you will recall, ebay doesn't allow you to use paypal for the Mature Audiences section. Does this mean they are planning to get rid of adult items?
I just found http://www.oztion.com.au/, but I dunno...
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Rule #1: Always try Craigslist (or similar) first. If you can't sell or buy it locally, try a targeted classified (special-interest forums sometimes have a "for sale" section with buyers and sellers who generally know what they're doing). Then and only then, resort to generic nation-wide services like ebay if you have to.
If you can find the item you want to buy locally, or sell your item locally -- meaning you can actually exchange cash with another human being in person -- then obviously this is the easiest, safest, most hassle-free way to go. No fees, no wait, no pointless bidding (I still can't understand the point of that), no signing up for anything, no spam, no time wasting, no disclosing your bank account to third parties, no chance of getting ripped off. How could this not be a superior solution to ebay?
Australian law makers aren't entirely beholden to corporate interests. So we have legal avenues to pursue against anti-competitive practices before they allow a company to become a monopoly.
Oh and btw, I wouldn't be suprised if eBay and PayPal had enough of a market share to be declared monopolies. I don't even know the name of another generalist online auction service, or online payment service.
========
CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
Complain to the BERR Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory (Previously the DTI).
What you describe is illegal in the UK. A dominant supplier may not do any of the following, tying in (forcing you to use one service to access another), prevent entry by competitors or mandate exclusive deals.
Have you noticed that you can't unselect paypal as an offered payment method in the US Ebay? I got into a fight with some asshole on Ebay because he wouldn't write me a check even though I specifically stated on my listing that the buyer would pay by check. He said that I should take paypal. Ebay says that you can take any form of payment you want, except theres no way to unselect paypal.
Paypal is just a scam to get the seller to pay two listing fees.
ebay india has already been doing this for a while. They call is paisapay and it is mandatory for all the sellers to have this option in their listings. For new sellers, there is no other option possible.
Tell em they're dreamin...
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Far from being bullshit, the post you replied to was entirely correct. If you accept payment by credit card for customer-not-present transactions the CC companies always insist that *you* take all the risk. They can at any time decide a transaction was iffy and it's always the vendor who bears the cost.
I have always used postal orders, made out to CASH, when paying for goods bought from eBay. I feel this is the safest form of payment because of all the gaps in the trail. The seller doesn't need to know any more about me than where to send the goods, and I only need to know where to send the money. The clerk at the post office where I bought the postal order doesn't know where I am going to send it, and once the PO is in the post, there is nothing to link it back to me. The clerk at the post office where the seller cashes the PO doesn't know where it came from; and once the goods are in the post, there is nothing to link them with the seller. If any unauthorised party intercepts either transaction, the recipient can reasonably say they know nothing about it. After all, I have no control over some stranger who decides to put something in an envelope and write my address on it! Sometimes, that level of plausible deniability is very important.
.....
If they start insisting on PayPal, I will cease using eBay. I do not want my transactions monitored so closely, thank you very much. Part of me is even surprised that eBay have not started a delivery company {or bought up an existing one} and started trying to strong-arm people into using that
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
You don't seem to have any idea about this payment and banking business. It doesn't work like that with credit cards, and to a certain amount, bank transfers. You also overstate the advantages of PayPal. Frankly, I'd trust the banking system and the local law enforcement a lot more than PayPal and eBay's toothless enforcement abilities. The bottom line is, for Australians, it's a lot more convenient, cheaper, and safer to use the local banking system to transfer funds than to use PayPal. Report fraudulent transaction to eBay/PayPal, and you're lucky to even get a reply. Report it to your bank and the police, and at least you have a fighting chance. Plus it's a hassle paying via PayPal.
... and then they built the supercollider.
http://gunbroker.com/ - eBay doesn't let you sell weapons
I will stick with craigslist. at least there I deal with most people in person and there are no fees.
What really sucks is that ebay has a monopoly over the entire online auction business. They can pretty much do whatever they want and force all their users to go with it since there is no competition offering anything better. If you do use an alternative to sell your product, you won't find any buyers since so many buyers visit ebay.
What we need is a fundamental change in the business model, we need competition. I don't understand why online auctioning couldn't be done by many companies competing. You might ask if site A, B, and C are all offering online auctions, how would the buyer have time to search them all? Well, There could easily be a search engine set up to search them all. They would all be competing for the lowest fees, giving the buyer the option of who to go with.
I'm not sure what has to happen for the online auctioning to change in this way. But something really needs to happen, we really can't have one company bullying everyone.
The burden of proof on any chargeback is on the merchant always. I worked for a CC support here in the states before my job was relocated without me. I would hear 100's of chargeback cases from merchants a month and out of those cases only a handful would actually get to keep there money. It could be anything from a claim of fraud to I don't like this item. The merchants don't get their items back typically and they are usually forced to eat the cost. You have to have a signed receipt and said receipt has to both match the signature on the back of the card and test positive for the signature on file. You could have a blood sample and it wouldn't be enough sometimes.
because we all know how great paypal is, and how often that they want to talk with you in case of problems, most people can't even find their contact phone number, let alone get someone worth while on the phone who knows what they are doing....
My experience and friends experience with them, makes this one of those things that saddens me.
If they could up their regulations and communications with their clients, then maybe but they do everything to avoid talking with you about the problems you may be having. NEVER KEEP LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNTS, THEY CAN FREEZE IT AT THEIR DISCRETION AT ANY TIME WITHOUT NOTICE.
My friends sells batteries, as a powerseller, and whenever he has problems with credit cards, he can usually get info from the card company, even if he has to swallow the charge, however if there is an indiscretion with someone else's paypal used to purchase his item, he gets frozen until they can figure out what happened, and they are very slow, almost retarded...so he waits and waits, he has a few accounts set up in case of such thing, that way he can still do business..
but what a hassle, it isn't his fault someone frauded someone else's account, so why does he pay
in lost revenue etc....?
...not impressive.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
That's funny, I refuse to buy from sellers who don't take something other than paypal. Paypal is a straight up con, they can take your money, never give it back, and you have no recourse. The fact that they haven't taken yours yet is just good luck on your part.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
A month ago I got an email from Paypal to update my credit card details as my card went out of date.
I proceeded to update the details, when I was informed that people can pay me with paypal, but I couldn't withdraw any funds unless I fax them 2 forms of identity.
I immediately baulked at this. They are asking for details reserved for Banks etc when they are not a bank. In fact they are a private escrow company without complying with anything.
But my problem is that I do commission sales for people who have no idea how to sell on-line. Big, single items worth hundreds or thousands. So now I have to prove my identity with these documents, just to be able to draw money out of the account.
The whole thing sucks and I'm definitely going to say "PayPal NOT preferred" from now on.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
This would have been a ridiculous transaction to do on PayPal - why would we want to pay hundreds of dollars to them for there percentage cut, and not have control over the financial transaction?
At the consumer level, being forced to use PayPal is an annoyance - but for the buying and selling of big ticket items, it's simply unworkable.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
Marketing 101: Offer choices, consumers always love that.
Business 101: Remove choices, consumers always love that.
Asking sellers to offer it as an option is one thing, disallowing the classic direct deposit payment method is pure greed. They skim 3% on all payments (found this out the hard way when a guy offered to pay for an $1850 motorbike through Paypal).
They are really testing the limits of their monopoly power with this, hopefully it'll open the door to competing sites (eg. Oztion) reaching critical mass.
eBay is a good way to get rid of unneeded items though so I guess I'll have to sell as much as I can now and give eg. the Trading Post more serious consideration.
Nice move Ebay, first you start to alienate your sellers by giving them less and less appropriate feedback mechanisms. Then you alienate your buyers with your shady practices and inappropriate responses. Now you make the ultimate and ultimately suicidal sins of both removing the feedback system and forcing Paypal on everyone.
I am surprised that no one in this forum has mentioned (at least as far as I have read) that Ebay OWNS Paypal. They bought Paypal a number of years ago and try to act like it is still a separate company. Are you kidding me??? This is a blatant act of anti-competitive behavior and combine that with the fraudulent way that Paypal is run and Ebay's auction dominance and you have one huge monopoly... that will ultimately fail.
Ebay has been bleeding customers for years and with this move I think the final death stroke isn't too far off. My father used to sell things on Ebay all the time. But things got worse and worse until finally a year ago he gave it up permanently (though other events helped lead to this as well). This was after earning over 30,000 stars on Ebay. Do you have any idea how much you have to sell/buy to reach that number? And he was with them from the beginning. They started off as a good company, but slowly, over the last 8 years, became a greedy corporate pig of a company that created so much bureaucracy that it is next to impossible to get them to take any kind of appropriate action in any kind of complaint or concern.
Ebay is wrought with fraudulant auctions, identity theft, and just general criminal activity. Do the world a favor and let this giant die quickly.
The Mind Is Speculative and Interpretive. So speculate all you want and interpret this 00101101 01001110!
After researching the dispute, the customer's bank can issue a chargeback. Then your merchant bank will issue a chargeback fee on top of the chargeback!
Depending on your merchant provider, before the dispute stage a customer will request a receipt or information. Greedy merchant account banks will charge a fee for this - which you MUST comply as part of your credit card agreement.
Yes, you can get screwed by a merchant bank just as you can with paypal. The difference here is time to react. A merchant bank will at least give you respect and time to research and resolve the situation before laying down the hammer.
Google "chargeback" (I refuse to post wikipedia links)
From someone who had a merchant account...
Hopefully someone in Australia will get smart and open up a competing "eBay" that offers other payment methods. This is clearly just a way for eBay to make more $$$ off their purchase of PayPal.
I seldom use PayPal--I only use one credit card on the net (not a debit one either) that comes with protection. Even though I seldom use PayPal, I've had two problems with it.
One came when I worked with a client to get her list of purchasers ported up to her newsletter subscriber list so she could announce new items, features, upgrades, etc. After various attempts I was able to download some of the list, but then got a message that I needed to call an 800 number. I did--I could have (and probably should have) just lied and said I was her, but I told them who I was, what I was doing and had all the pertinent information, account number, etc. All I got was the run around, they'd say I had to call X, X would say I needed to call Y. It became pretty obvious that no one wanted to allow anything and so they just passed the buck between the two numbers. After an hour of this I gave up and called my client. Even she didn't want to deal with them and decided to go with the information I had been able to pull as it was the most recent. I found PayPal to be highly unprofessional and decided if I ever had that type of business I wasn't going to use them.
The other came when I most recently purchased something. When I logged into may account, PayPal said my credit card wasn't "verified". When I clicked to find out what that was about, they want you to either list a bank account with them or to apply for their PayPal Visa Card. Now, there's no effing WAY that I'm giving those clowns my bank account number! (I believe this is illegal if they're using bank accounts as a backup to make any payment not met by a credit card.) And I certainly don't want their, no doubt, high interest credit card. But if you don't do that then they say they'll put a limit on your spend, although they don't say what the limits are. I was able to make my purchases, but again, unless I have to I'll prefer to just use my credit card or a different payment method.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
This sucks. Too bad Yahoo shut down their auctions. Andy
One big concern I have with Craigslist is, eBay apparently invested heavily in them already. I used to wonder why they'd possibly see any benefit to dumping a bunch of money into what's essentially a free version of newspaper classifieds. (I mean, Craigslist has pretty much NO mechanism to collect money, and no rating or "feedback" functionality on the site, seemingly making it useless to something like the eBay business model.)
But now I'm wondering if this was a "plan B" for them all along? If eBay goes "sour", they could leverage Craigslist as an alternative? They probably bet, all along, that most of the people who'd defect from eBay over issues like "mandatory PayPal usage" would wind up on Craigslist. They could institute policies of charging monthly subscription fees to post on Craigslist or something - and keep on taking money, even from the people who thought they were dodging them.
...When eBay was new, and shiny? Whatever happened to Bidpay, Paypal's less-intrusive cousin? It didn't ask for bank verification, and required far fewer clicks to just pay for the stupid auction.
Possible. However, craigslist does deserve to make money any way they can. If Craigslist charges a nominal fee for each listing (say $0.25), good for them. If it is too expensive, somebody else will pop up and take away Craigslist's business.
In the end, the biggest complaint (as far as I know) is that people can get ripped off using paypal. Well, I have dealt with craigslist many times. There is no chance of getting ripped off if you keep your eyes open. You can drive over and see the merchandise before you pay, and if you sell, insist on cash. It's really that simple. Of course, buyer beware and inspect everything closely before you buy.
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
I guess the government needs to step in and regulate ebay, otherwise it will probably more onto other monopolistic behavior.
1) Create online auction site
2) Buy largest processor of auction payments
3) Wait for Google to roll out competing payment service (Google Checkout)
4) Use your auction site monopoly to create an unfair advantage for your auction payment processor.
5) Lawsuit!
paintball
You love it more apparently you stuck your dick in there, was it like a sausage down a hallway?
ebay owns 25% of craigslist and so far they've stayed away from messing with the CL business model. I don't think they could if they wanted to. CL rarely charges for ads and if they wanted to make more money, they could do something simple like start running google ads. But they make enough money doing what they go. It is not a profit driven company at all. eBay started off good and very quickly turned evil. For CL to turn evil, Craig himself will have to die. I wouldn't put that past eBay though, so Craig watch your back!
Those are certainly concerns, but that doesn't mean that you can't use Craigslist until such time as those fees become mandatory.
Ebay is so large now they can afford to shed thousands of sellers and buyers and still improve profits for themselves and their partner, Paypal. The fraud fees alone will more than make up for any loss due to losing people as a result of the change.
I'm not sure how much money Paypal has to kickback to the Ebay officers for this sweetheart deal but it must be impressive.
I'd like to see RevolutionMoneyExchange (referrer link) get some traction. Paypal could definitely use a competitor. I signed up with RME for the $25 incentive, but I don't really use it much. If they succeed in growing their user base, though, perhaps that could change.
Maybe i was not clear. And i work in a bank.
The customer's bank issues a chargeback/credit to the customer's account from its OWN money.
It then contacts the merchant with your details and tells them to confirm the transaction.
If you had signed a charge slip, the merchant will refer back to the bank as a CP (Card Present) situation and the auth code.
The bank will dig out the charge slip (from its records) and contacts you with the information.
The bank CAN and WILL charge you money to retrieve the information from its records.
The merchant duty is to sustain a CP with a chargeslip within 10 days to the bank.
So if your merchant fails to present the chargeslip to his banker WITHIN 10 days, the charge on your card is revoked and the merchant can't get any money.
In a CNP (Card Not present) scenario, like web, the merchant gives details to the bank processor and processes it.
Banks charge a higher percentage (> 2.5%) for CNP.
If you contact your bank with a chargeback for a CNP, the merchant obviously can't produce a chargeslip.
Instead the merchant will dispute it with an invoice or someother way (by contacting you too).
Your card issuing bank's main duty is to you. If you say you dispute a charge, the bank's duty is to give your money back.
The merchant bank is different. They don't know you and care a shit about you.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Yes, merchants are screwed. But this is still better under the credit/debit card system than under PayPal. With the cards, the merchant can at least continue doing business on other transactions, even while the disputed ones are in dispute. With PayPal, the merchant's account can be completely frozen. Money can still be sent to a frozen PayPal account, but it is still frozen. The merchant gets no money coming in at all from any of the undisputed transactions.
Someone who is just unhappy with the product they got might (inappropriately) dispute the charge and force a chargeback with the merchant account passes on to the merchant (often through deductions on the settlement transfers, since disputes tend to be a small percentage of total transactions). While PayPal could do that, they too often do a whole account freeze, just because of a handful of idiot customers.
Many regular EBAY sellers have to have multiple PayPal accounts to handle these issues better. EBAY may eventually disallow that as it ties things closer to its PayPal operations.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
If any payment method is mandatory, the system is broken and no one should use it. Choice is what provides variety and security for both ends of the transaction.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
And yet, over my 6 years of selling with paypal (though none of that on ebay), they've informed me of each and every disputed, charged-back or suspected-fraud purchase, given me weeks to tell my side of the story (not that there's anything I can say when the buyer's payment was fraudulent), and they've never frozen my account. I'm always hearing stories, but they've been great to me while processing about $90,000 incoming and quite a bit outgoing (since I use my paypal debit card for about anything I buy) over the years.
On the other hand, my credit union checking account managed to ding me for huge fees and bounce checks once when I forgot to transfer from savings to checking, even though both accounts are under the same login. I'll take paypal any day.
Totally, absolutely wrong. Do you have direct deposit at your job? Have they ever screwed up the deposit amount? They can take it right back out again and it's perfectly legal for them to do so. There is no security on ACH transactions, if you have someone's routing and account numbers you can drain their bank account dry. As long as they can demonstrate they had the right to do so, which is trivial, there are no repercussions for doing so.
Ah, but you're not receiving stolen funds. PayPal is. That's not sophistry either, it's how PayPal has deliberately structured things to get around banking laws. You have an individual contract with PayPal. You do not have a contract with anyone else. When you make a transaction you agree to perform X service (be it pay X dollars or deliver X goods). When you perform your end of the deal faithfully, such as sending out goods, you have completed your contract and PayPal owes you money. PayPal has a separate agreement with Joe Schmo to receive X dollars in exchange for some goods (which they have purchased from you). When someone pays with stolen funds, that person has broken their contract with PayPal. You are not involved in that transaction in any way.
I've had my PayPal account for a long time and I have not run into any problems whatsoever. I have done so many transactions (including $1,000's) with it. I do not know how all those things paypalsucks.com happened, but none have happened to me, and it has been years.
What I have changed over the past year or so is to stop doing stuff on eBay and just use craigslist. Most of the time, people pay in cash and are very friendly. I have not had problems with it, although I still get nervous every time I decide to do a delivery (I deliver if they live within 15 miles of my house). I allow people to pay with their credit card using PayPal, and I have not had a problem with this either.
In my opinion, to get bidders and/or buyers on eBay with anything, the listing costs are pretty expensive in comparison to free (craigslist). It's now $20 extra to have your item on Featured items. I understand the cost but at least on craigslist my item is first right after I post it. That's "featured items" to me. eBay is going the way of the dinosaurs because of places like craigslist IMO unless it changes its ways. And due to negative feedback altogether about PayPal, I think this is sure to hurt them a lot more. I have never minded paying or being paid with PayPal, but it seems MANY others have.
More recently I've been selling a book I wrote (plug: http://www.progressiverock.com/) and you know what, I start an auction on Saturday, a week later it ends, I sell the book, receive $$$ through Paypal, and ship via USPS which is debited from that same Paypal account. The day after payment is received (usually Sunday), the book is in the mail to the buyer. What an effortless transaction.
Here's the kicker: In my auction text, I have a link http://www.lulu.com/content/604953 which allows the interested party to buy the book a) immediately, b) for less $$$ and c) for less shipping. But every book I put up on eBay sells, and has multiple bidders. Whatever one may think of eBay and Paypal, it works for me...
www.itjerk.com
eBay charges your list, PayPal charges you per transaction. They are forcing another fee on on us. It could aslo be considered anti competitive.
But yes, there's a reason they ask, not debit.
Very, very true. Fund availability and check clearance are two different things. The former is a function of financial institution policy and your (or your account) standing with them, as to whether they'll make you wait, make all funds available immediately based on history, or funds up to $1,000, etc. Especially if it's an international check, clearance can take up to a month (usually up to a week domestically, a few days for the major institutions).
Previously eBay australia was usable in a safe browser (javascript disabled). Now the ebay "Pay Now" button takes you to the paypal site with a list of payment options, but the only one that's selectable without javascript is paypal.
I still haven't worked out how to tell ebay that I've paid for the item.
iOFFER.com is another. Instead of selling in an auction format, items are sold in a best price format. They also allow you to import your feedback and items from ebay, so it's no extra work to have your items both places.
There's also no listing fees.
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/
http://www.oztion.com.au/
http://www.xoobie.com.au/
http://www.bidsell.com.au/
http://www.dola.com.au/
There's certainly no shortage of alternatives.
I have to say, as an Australian Ebay buyer, I don't appreciate being restricted in my payment options. Paypal was fine when buying from overseas sellers, but from local sellers, bank deposit was by far the most convenient way to pay. Oh well, at least they're not removing C.O.D, which I've done a few times.
I joined ebay with a account for someone and we wher promply send msgs telling us of paypay restrictions also
So let me get this straight. First i have to use credit card or back account to transfer funds to paypal account and then i can use paypal to pay what i want to buy. Why can't i just pay with credit card directly? Makes life easier.
It's hard to tell just how bad PayPal is, because they are very large, and there will always be some problems. Also, people tend to bias their side of the story when something happens -- it wouldn't surprise me if many of the merchants complaining were actually doing shady stuff. No doubt some people get screwed over.
I wish there was more transparency in these disputes. It's all behind closed doors so both parties could be up to no good. I'd like to see a third party handle arbitration in an open manner.
I recently gave up my ebay account and no longer use paypal for anything. These people are scary. I would not be surprised when they offer you a mark on your hand or forehead to help you buy and sell items.