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African Americans and the Video Game Industry
An anonymous reader writes "African Americans spend more money and time playing video games than whites, yet only 2% of game developers are black. This past week, MTV's Multiplayer blog interviewed five black game industry professionals for their perspective on race in the industry. Intelligent Gamer summarizes and highlights portions of this lengthy series of interviews."
Really?
Who cares?
I never knew there had to be any specific percentage of "African-Americans" participating in any activity.
And yes, "African-American" is a downright stupid appellation. Can you call a black child born in Denmark "African-American"?
Why must everything be devolved down to race? I do not care if developers are black, white, green, purple, etc.. as long as they make a good quality product. The question should be, are the developers putting out a quality product? In my honest opinion, game developers fail in this task 60% of the time. It may sound like I do not want Diversity, on the contrary, I want diversity. Diversity is what helps keep things fresh and new. I just think we spend too much time worrying about race and not enough on quality. This is my opinion, like any opinion, it may not please everyone. No offense is intended or meant.
Isn't this the natural result of the socio-econic situation of said racial group in the US, the high cost of college in the US, and the fact that most employers in said industry want a college degree?
I'm "african american", even though I was never alive in africa. I also develop games and program as a hobby.
The funny thing about the geeks of my generation, is that most of us don't really care about race. You're a noob if you don't know how to recompile your kernel, not because you happened to be born a specific hue.
Didn't everyone get the memo that the media doesn't really represent the people anymore? There isn't much to get over.
The difference is - slaves in US were of a specific race, different from that of their masters. So, it is easy to recognize those who descended from slaves, and keep milking the "underprivileged" story forever. Interestingly enough, new immigrants from African countries get to essentially piggyback onto the same story even when they are not descendants of the slaves and were never subject to discrimination in US. Oh well, every groups of people looks for competitive advantage.
Probably first order statistic is that few people from poor backgrounds are working as game designers with the statistic that there are few black people working as game designers reflecting this rather than anything else. Now if you wish to use this as an example that there is economic disparity between white and black americans, then it might be valid to do so though there are vastly better statistics that could be used to show that than number of black game developers (doctors, university graduates, etc). I doubt it's the case that black people are facing barriers in the game industry so much as there's a more general economic reason.
Just to put these statistics in perspective anyway, Wikipedia tells me that black people make up about 12% of the US poopulation. So we're looking at 2% related to this.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
I gotta say, it's VERY rare I see any black people at programming related events. But.. it's also pretty rare to see women. A connection? Perhaps.
More than any other group I've come into contact with, programmers typically seem to be socially-stunted and have personality and mental issues (particularly depression, narcissism, and semi-autistic disorders). Thankfully, these issues tend to translate well into becoming great programmers.
In comparison, most black people and women I've come across, tend to be more outgoing and sociable. If I had the social skills most women and black folks seem to have, I probably wouldn't be a programmer either, because there are a lot more interesting things to do in this world if you don't mind interacting with regular people.
So perhaps we shouldn't lament why there aren't more women, blacks, whatever, in the software industry, but feel some relief that they're not mentally damaged enough to find the industry that interesting in the first place.
So what about all the non American black people, or the non African blacks? If you are going to say "only x% of developers are black" then why not just use 'black' in the headline instead of the PC "African American"
As I read some of the post here "N#$%^ are stupid" etc.... I can't help but to think that the real reason is that the development industry in general is skeptical of a person of color's capability to design and develop software. I currently work as a senior software engineer on a few key development project in the telecom industry and to tell you the truth it has been a battle to get where I am. No matter what I want to believe about merit and talent, there is an underlying "how did you get in, here?!" sentiment floating around the development industry when it comes to blacks doing design and engineering work. It is a real shame that we as an industry can't just be above all of this a hire people based on there capability. Sad world......
... Video games caused gangs, drugs, and gang violence in the Brockton, MA area and throughout Boston in Massachusetts. So the mayor of Boston, Thomas Menino, wanted to outright "ban" video games in many parts of Suffolk County, including Brockton and Boston.
HELLO? Rap music, for instance, would be a much better medium to censor and show your racism.
Don't get me wrong I think this is interesting, but I just don't see it. I live in an area where if I'm not a white minority then we are at a 50/50 split. But when I talk to A. American's I never hear them mention BioShock, Battlefield, Oblivion, C&C, WOW or Rock Band. I find it especially interesting that games like Saints Row which seem to almost be targeted at "their culture" are never brought up. If anything I hear some mention of Madden, but my own observations fall drastically short of the ratio that this article describes. I would love to see where these statistics come from. Now the point of this article is still lost on me. Are we saying that even though this demographic is hooked we still have untapped market potential? Or are we saying that the stigma of being a computer programmer hasn't really crossed that racial divide? Even further are they hinting at some unforeseen racism in the industry? I know people get uncomfortable talking about race and the only thing more certain to get you punched today is talking about religion but I don't care about that these statements have drawn my interest. I wonder would they have posted this if the US didn't have a black candidate for office?
Racism, just like sexism, is so deeply ingrained in most people they're totally blind to it, and even worse, are just like the first commenters to this article- self-centered clueless twits who would rather die than listen to a different point of view, especially from someone pointing out a problem or trying to correct a wrong. (I have to wonder why y'all take it so personally, and always twitch like a gaffed fish when these subjects come up? Guilty conscience?) Nobody is asking for racial quotas, though there is always at least one guaranteed slashtwit to bring it up. Most of us would settle for you fine members of the "there is no problem, just quit whining" club to shut up and keep out of our way, instead of filling the heavens with your complaining over the audacity of anyone who has been mistreated to actually stand up for him or herself, and try to make some changes.
we will end no whine before its time
And? If we truly want to live in a society of racial equality, we need to stop calling attention to stuff like this. Who gives a shit what whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc do. As long as we're not fucking each other over, who gives a shit..
I don't know, but it sounds quite sensationalistic. I have never cared who the person behind a game is, because this is gaming, not a celebrity contest or a model show. If my favorite game is made by man or a woman of whatever race, it's not what's important. What is important are the reasons that made me like the game.
It's like saying that the movie industry needs more midgets...it just makes no sense.
Putting it differently, what matters of a game director/coder is the soul, brain and heart. Having those qualities, the rest is not relevant at all.
I wasn't aware that black people are only supposed to play games made by other black people.
Thanks a million. Push Start to replay.
I personally work with people of all races from all over the world, and though I can't say I have absolutely no prejudices whatsoever I certainly do not consciously discriminate against anyone because of their ethnicity. And I think a very large percentage of the current/next generation are the same - we're growing up in multi-cultural environments with mixed ethnicity and we're learning to value our differences rather than look on them negatively. It is the older generation who still wants to talk about the past, who still wants to talk about stereotyping and martyrdom. TFA does nothing to break from the conventional mold, and it's infuriating to me. In college [Computer Science] courses, I was typically one of maybe four black students, and I was certainly the only black female. In the industry, the makeup is pretty much the same. It's intimidating at times. I'm one of a handful, but I don't let these things hold me back. It's intimidating at times? Is it really? Were you singled out at college, or because you were too aware psychologically of your ethnicity did you single yourself out and limit your interactions between the other black students? Today, do your coworkers look at you funny when you walk down the hallway? Does the conversation stop at the water cooler when you arrive? Do you have to use a specially designated bathroom? No. Why is it intimidating? It's intimidating because you are all too aware of your race and concern yourself with the possibility of prejudice, not because it necessarily exists. On counting the number of black women at GDC: "The grand total was six, including myself, and I hear that [the Game Developers Conference] had an attendance of over 18,000 this year." And how many white women were there? I hazard a guess at not too many, based on the industries history of mainly male developers. Yes, women are still under-represented in certain industries, too. But if they work as hard as men and are equally qualified over time the situation finds a more natural balance. I think a lot of folks are just now starting to see it as a career choice. Young people are starting to realize that game development is something you can make a real living at. It's not like running off to join the circus. There are curriculums that are centered specifically around it, and the industry is looking for talent above all else. A-ha! Some intelligence. There may not be a lot of african american developers because we're only now promoting it to those teens as a viable career choice!
I could go on. If we want to end racial bias and under representation, I support the free market model: Provide people equal opportunities not by artificially advantaging one group above another or by continually highlighting racial under-representation, but through a good education across all people, and simply let things work themselves out over time. The problem will obviously not go away tomorrow, but does that really mean we have to keep highlighting it today, over and over, repeating the same old talking points?
I think it's pretty obvious that the problem is not people pushing themselves to softly... 95% of all characters in any popular media are heavily clicheed. Even though every single game designer, author, movie director, musician and whatnot would really like to do better. But you don't get project funding for better, you get funding for dependable and predictable sales. As "they" say: It's a hit driven business (with "it" being just about everything).
Characters must always meet expectations so that no one changes the channel because they don't understand the plot anymore after fetching beer from the fridge. Consequently any clearly identifiable group is badly misrepresented in popular media.
Also, Slashdot readers, you just have to love this quote from the article:
Knock yourselves out...
You can attach boosters to anything. It just costs more. -
Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 07, @12:26PM
Oh, and all lazy persons must be stupid huh? You productivist.
lol: You see no door there!
"programmers typically seem to be socially-stunted and have personality and mental issues"
Who modded this crap insighful? Where did you get that , Cliched Quotes R Us? I know plenty of coders who are perfectly normal people , in fact I don't think I've ever met one who was the alleged stereotype aspergers and I only ever met one who I'd have called socially stunted.
"In comparison, most black people and women I've come across, tend to be more outgoing and sociable."
Women tend to be more outgoing than men. Black people ? It varies just as much as whites or asians. Are you just making this up as you go along? sounds to me like you've never mixed with anyone and are just going by the lyrics on your Craig David albums,
"because there are a lot more interesting things to do in this world if you don't mind interacting with regular people."
Yeah , like not posting trite made up crap you pulled out of your arse on slashdot.
They'd rather play than develop. Can't say I blame them.
Enjoy Every Sandwich
In the US black people are over represented in the lower class. This means, the percentage of black people belonging to the lower class in relation to all black people in the US is high than compared to the whole US society. In the lower class it is more common that young especially young male humans have an interest in gaming. This does not mean that in other classes young male do not game. It just says that the possibility that you like gaming and additionally do it quite often, increases when you are in a lower class. In Europe you get similar results. In Germany for example you can make the same analysis and you will get as a result: Turkish people are unrepresented in the gaming industry. But over represented in the gamers league. The cause is quite similar. If you are poor you get worse education. This is a institutional problem. Means schools treat you different when you are poor then when you are rich. So you get bad grades, which isn't helpful in getting to university or college. At least their is a way out of it. The Scandinavian found it. They help every kid. And they help the parents. But they are not on the "competition trip" like the USA, UK or Germany.
Didn't realize I wasn't logged in... You can attribute the above to me, however.
So... he's saying that blatant stereotypes are okay, as long as they are not of black people? Am I missing something?
I've seen all three games. I'm Italian. My wife is Latina. And I'm not offended by any of it. But this interviewer seems to be saying that my lack of offense is because there is some fundamental difference in the race portrayals... I thought it was that I can choose to be offended or to be entertained by any of these blatant, joking, stereotypes.
I don't get it.
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
>Interestingly enough, new immigrants from African countries get to essentially piggyback onto the same story even when they are not descendants of the slaves and were never subject to discrimination in US. Oh well, every groups of people looks for competitive advantage.
On the flip side, immigrants of European descent are able to benefit from the system of prejudice that benefited the majority white population. Right ?
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
When I entered the CS course (Brasil), along with me came a guy from Africa. He spent a year on it, and then changed to Law school. I guess they don't want to work "underground" as programmers (it's pretty dark where I work) or something like that, they want to be recognized. Even if you come with the "they are poor", it's a public university we're talking about here. And a lot of the funding goes for students who can prove they are poor.
Apart from that, I don't think anyone should be offended by being called "black" or "white". How would it look if I, being white as a candle, wanted to sue someone for calling me white, or even whitey?
http://derkosak.blogspot.com - That's a blog.
Copied this insightful comment from the article link. I took the liberty to post it here for some additional views (I apologize in advance for any copies I posted by accident as "Anonymous Coward").
Author: Areala
Any time you bring race or gender bias into any particular medium, there's going to be problems. And while I can certainly see that there is a disparity, the first thing one has to look at is that numbers don't tell you everything.
Being female, when I was growing up, I heard all the time about how women were paid less than men, and how terrible this was. And while the numbers are true, they don't tell the whole story. Women, by and large, simply tend to go after jobs that traditionally pay less. Female teachers outnumber male teachers in every school in the US, for example--this is not because men are being "held back" from teaching by an elite group of high-powered females in schools and universities, it's because there are more women interested in the job than men, and fewer males are getting their degrees and licenses than females are. Numbers alone are meaningless without a reason to go along with them.
On the subject of ethnicity, the only counterpoints I can offer to the subject of "bias" against any particular ethnicity are as follows. First, the majority of gamers are male, and the majority of game developers are male; this isn't surprising considering that males (especially in the teenage demographic) are statistically more interested in gaming than females. We're not the rare birds we once were, but we're still not as common. Boys use video games as bonding experiences and social experiences. By and large, girls tend to bond and socialize in other ways. Men are more apt to enter the field of game design because, statistically speaking, they are more apt to be interested in it than their female counterparts are (remember the teacher analogy). It's not that the top-tier of every gaming company is conspiring to keep women out, it's that they're having a hard time finding any who are at all interested in the field period. Black or white, asian or european, it's going to be guys right now who are filling the ranks. And gaming isn't the garage-based hobby it was twenty years ago--with budgets of games in the next generation hovering in the double-digits of millions of dollars for a major, AAA title like Final Fantasy, Grand Theft Auto, or Gears of War, and gaming revenue surpassing Hollywood in terms of dollars generated, gaming companies are only interested in hiring the best people for the right positions. If you can't program, or you aren't as good a designer as somebody else, or you lack the experience a company is looking for, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or whether you have two X chromosomes: the job will not be yours. Plain and simple.
Point two is something that an awful lot of people seem to forget about gaming when this topic comes up for discussion, and that is that video games are all about fantasy. There's a reason why Microsoft has not made a multi-platinum-selling video game about a geeky programmer who works a 9-5 job programming the next iteration of Windows; it's a fantasy that appeals to so few people that those who would be interested in playing the game are already doing it in real life.
Fantasy in games is all about getting to do things that you can't do in real life, either because of physical, social, ethical or legal ramifications or because the universe we inhabit is not the same as the universe of a video game. No matter how hard we might want it, none of us will be able to be Joan of Arc leading an attack on the English in an effort to restore France's deposed dauphin to his rightful place on the throne. Unless we play a video game.
Since gaming is all about fantasy, it stands to reason that the things we want to fantasize about most are the things we will never, ever get to do in real life. There's a reason Madden NFL sells millions of copies with each year's release: there are millions of people all over the world
Ask them! I don't know. I just know I don't want to go near that damn industry. In fact, maybe it's too much like slave labour, and they are smart enough to stay away?
If African American is the term used to identify Americans of African descent, then it is correct to use the label for Americans who are "people of Caribbean descent". As they would be Americans and they are of African descent also, likewise the term is appropriate for Americans who are from Africa. If you were to classify someone as Asian American, you don't indicate when the person migrated, so why is it applicable for blacks ?
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
Quick, do a study about how many blonde-haired people play games vs. develop them. The video game industry is blondeist! Seriously, why do we still use race as a primary factor in surveys when what they're looking for is economic and social factors? That's where the racism is happening, not in the hiring practices of developers.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
Despite the fact that a large percentage of rap music fans are white, only about 2% actually produce rap music! Seriously, who the hell cares? Some people like products of different cultures, whether music or games or anything else. This is a good thing.
"The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
And being a "hacker" has nothing to do with breaking into computers. Give it up. You can't change the definition of a word yourself. The overwhelming majority of English speakers have already decided the definition; and that definition most definitely has something to do with race. :)
Believe it or not, race DOES play a different factor in a society with a huge black minority that's been systematically oppressed for most of the past 3 centuries.
I'm guessing the black people you grew up with, poor and otherwise, didn't grow up in an entirely-black-and-Latino ghetto, weren't marked by heavy urban accents, and probably didn't even have to grow up in an area with utterly failed justice and education systems.
If you honestly think that your initial economic situation doesn't have any impact on educational level and success in life, you're a moron.
Is it just me or are all these "problems" only problems in areas where "white" is the dominant (or substitute "white" for "male" and compare it to female)? Just let everyone do whatever it is they do that they are good at and enjoy. Nothing gets better cause you use somekinda quota to get more people in from different groups just for the sake of diversity.
There's a lot of financial aid available to poor people given on a needs-basis. Most of the people I know, myself included, are barely paying anything to go to college. Money isn't the barrier to education it once was.
The barrier is that people still think that only rich people can go to college. I know scads of poor people in the local high school who don't think they could ever go to college. They come up with a lot of excuses, like how their parents never went to college and ignore the possibility.
I doubt that race has anything to do with it. Attitudes of individual communities and families are keeping people from pursuing higher education. This is the problem that needs to be solved.
African-Americans play so much video games, that they never really amount to much and thus never end up in the video game industry. Simple causation. :)
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
If three grandparents came from Sweden and one came from Kenia, is the person still called an African American?
Seriously, think about it.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Saturation, not hue. Everyone's skin is pretty close to the same hue, but the amount of melanin changes the saturation, making it lighter or darker. This has interesting consequences for computer vision, and is also pretty much entirely offtopic.
Interestingly enough, new immigrants from African countries get to essentially piggyback onto the same story even when they are not descendants of the slaves and were never subject to discrimination in US.
What you're saying is that people who discriminate against black people people can tell the difference between american blacks and recent black immigrants, and do not discriminate against recent black immigrants.
I find that highly unlikely.
Recent black immigrants to the USA and their children are far more successful (like Obama) than blacks who have been living in the USA for generations. That strongly suggests the problems of the black community are not primarily due to discrimination.
Oh well, every groups of people looks for competitive advantage.
Aha. It's all about advantage for yourself, not redress of past wrongs.
Oh gosh I don't even know where to start with this one. Black people don't look up to characters like 50 cent, you need to look around more the guy has sold approximately 30 million albums and they were bought by mostly WHITE suburbanites. Anyone who sells that many albums has to have a HUGE white fanbase. As far as education... In many poor HS's (I went to one) you will be lucky if you even have a teacher who knows anything beyond basic algebra, much less calc. These classes aren't even offered and if they are they are taught by someone who just took a community college calc course and barely knows the subject themselves. When I was in HS I was teaching the calc course because the teacher did not know the material. I had to beg school administration for higher level books which the superintendent of schools pulled strings to loan from another school district. You talk as if many of these kids can just waltz into their local high school and get the education that they need. We didn't even have a computer science course in my HS but the three of us who were driven enough once again BEGGED for some access to computers and you know what we got?!? A VAX system and one ratty algorithms and data structures book from the 80s with missing pages in the FUCKING YEAR 2000. The exact same calc teacher who didn't know calc taught our computer science course. When there are two sets of children and one set has access to a higher level education by default but the other set of kids has to beg and plead just to get access to that same level of education which group is going to have a higher percentage of successful students? I grew up with people who were just as intelligent as I was but they didn't improve for one of two reasons. 1.) They didn't even know there was more out there. You may take your awareness of higher education for granted but there are people out there who don't know anyone who has gotten anything higher than a HS education, if that. When the bar is that low and the school system doesn't tell the students that they can achieve more how is a 15 year old suppose to know otherwise? 2.) They could make the cut academically but at the young age of 15 it was too much to ask that they help their parents pay the bills, take classes AND fight just to get some semblance of a decent education. As for women, my fiancée, who went to an equally inept school district and is now published (as an undergraduate) in the journal Advanced Materials says Paris Hilton was the inspiration behind all the work she did in polymer chemistry. The waahmbulance will be out next time masses of slashdotters are crying about H1B visas and offshoring.
I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended
--A wise old fart named SC0RN
All of that being said, I would love to hear a story about a group of black men and women who had brilliant game ideas and started their OWN game development studio in a basement and went on to make millions. It will happen eventually, with these numbers of blacks playing games it statistically must happen, it's only a matter of time. I'm kind of excited now.
And this was how many hundreds of years ago exactly?
It might be the pinnacle of irony to state this in my post, but one of the principle stereotypes in the rest of Scandinavia about Danes is actually that they are racists.
I don't know if you're Danish or not, but Denmark is currently having some serious issues with the recent phenomenon of immigration, and I seriously doubt a black Dane would get off so easily. It certainly isn't that way for Chinese and Middle-easterners' children. There's a significant number of politicians in Denmark whose main campaign issue is reducing the number of people allowed into the country.
One of the effects of this anti-immigration movement is that there are significant number of Pakistani/Somali/etc men who send home for a wife, but cannot get them into the country. Instead, they keep them across the border in Sweden. The social services implications (domestic violence, public health insurance, visas, etc) has risen to the point of a diplomatic tussle between the two countries.
now I'm supposed to know if the person who programmed some game is black or white? I honestly don't care, and I prefer to keep not caring.
:p
I wouldn't mind having more women around the office tho
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
the vast majority of rappers are black, but the majority of rap fans are white.
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
And this was how many hundreds of years ago exactly?
Since the vast majority of American blacks were systematically and institutionally prevented from achieving any real measure of success? About 60 years.
Either you are an American or you aren't. If you aren't, then go back where you came from.
No 'qualifiers' allowed.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So a lot of the people who it actually occurred to are probably dead?
Why is it still a issue today then?
All we have to do to fix the ratio is either sell less Madden/GTA games or get more African-Danes to program them. Either way is fine.
Perhaps, but I know no less than 3 people with their pieces of paper (degrees from engineering, psychology and accounting) who are not WORKING to their potential. My engineer friend makes home pages, my psychology friend works retail and yard care, and my accounting friend manages a gas station.
And that, my friends, makes me sad. Those people wasted their money (and they weren't poor enough or had enough gay fathers to get grants) and are paying off huge debts with 30k/year jobs (if that). If I made what I make now AND I had my piece of paper... I'd put a gun in my mouth so fast.
So a lot of the people who it actually occurred to are probably dead?
You're joking, right? You think your grandparents' economic and educational opportunities have no effect on where you are now? Poverty is usually multigenerational.
Depends on who you're talking to. What gets lost in these discussions is that many of the white (and other ethnicity) people that you see today were not slave owners but rather descendants of immigrants, people who came here with little or nothing. And certainly relatively recently. Many people you see today are only 3rd generation americans, if that, and those immigrant ancestors certainly did not come to a land of sunshine and lolipops. They came to a land of uncertainty, hatred, discrimination, poverty and hard work. But these people managed to rise in just 3 generations and quite successfully. Now of course YMMV and things do not always translate from one group to another perfectly. But one would expect to see a rise at least equivalent to that of most second generation americans.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
The reason you find skepticism in any industry for the capabilities of a colored person is because of the bang-up job the so-called 'civil rights leaders' have done yelling and screaming about how minorities cannot achieve anything without assistance.
It is rather easy to forget about racism when you're white. We like to imagine that there are no racial biases in operation when we get a job or are accepted into a group, but white people, and white males in particular are constantly receiving the benefits of racial bias.
Racism exists, whether we believe it does or not. There is no particular industry to blame, but we live in a society that still makes it more difficult for African-Americans to compete, and the effects of unequal treatment in the past don't just vanish overnight.
As just one example, conduct even the most rudimentary research on housing policy in America and you'll find that the US government systematically denied African-Americans the opportunity to buy housing in "good" areas of major American cities (meaning white areas) after WW II, which led to lower property values for African-Americans. Even after the passage of the Fair Housing Act, it's been an uphill battle for African-Americans who want to move into high-value white areas.
There are a wide variety of other indicators of racial bias in hiring decisions, pay, and so on. It doesn't sit well with white people who would like to pretend that racism has been conquered, and that we all operate on a level playing field, but racism is still with us. It's there staring you in the face if you care to see it.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Here in the UK the same is very much true with people of Indian descent. On the slightly dubious basis of accents, the last two doctors I have seen have been recent immigrants as are some of the software engineers I work with, while typically the Indian people working at the local supermarket speak in a broad Lancashire accent, suggesting their families have been here at least a couple of generations.
It doesn't prove there is no discrimination, just that a lot of recent immigrants have the training and skills to overcome it. This is mainly due to the points based immigration systems and quotas now used in so many countries.
If you assume the 'average' American is European descent and then look at the success of recent generations of European immigrants you'll find exactly the same pattern because you have to have a good degree - possibly even a PhD, just to get in.
Who gives a shit what whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc do. As long as we're not fucking each other over, who gives a shit.
People *are* getting fucked over on the basis of race, so actually it does matter.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
The only reason race keeps coming up as an issue in the US is because PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING IT UP. I don't care what percentage of whites play games vs. what percentage of blacks, and quite frankly I don't care what the distribution is among developers. Why should it matter anyway? I am white, and I play games that are designed and programmed primarily by Asians. So fucking what?
Who ever wrote this story needs to stop putting people into boxes of color. It does nothing but make people feel seperate from eachother.
Homo sapiens emerged from Africa. By your argument, we should call everyone in the US an African American. I don't personally have a problem with that, but I suspect that wasn't your intent.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
OK. So let's ask a few questions: What do they mean by the stereotype of "White"? Do they mean anglos? Do they mean Caucasians? Italians? French? Yugoslavian? Irish? Portuguese? Danish? Did they do a study on the number of Indians who play games and the number of Indian game creators? How about Jewish? What I see here to begin with is the all too typical stereotyping of "whites". I have a light skin, but I am mostly Italian- does that make me white? In New Orleans, at the turn of the 20th century, Italians were lynched & slaughtered by so called "white" folks. And there were a lot of mixed race people there- called Creole. You want to use your race baiting- make sure you have your bait straight. what I see here is a report that is designed to pit the stereotype of Black against the stereotype of White. There is no "white".
Republican leadership = Idiocracy
nobody cares.
If you want to talk about statistics about where black people are in society, I would say this has a lot to do with how many more black people fall below the poverty line or go to substandard schools. You could say that resultingly not many black people end up as game developers, but still this article is redundant IMO. It puts racial questions where they ought not to be.
I am beyond appalled that Slashdot.org had a such a bad news day, that this kind of story made it on here.
...and just how in the hell can five black gaming industry professionals have any kind of 'general insight' on the opinion of African Americans as a whole?
You have GOT to be kidding me...this is an even more trivial digression than that kid who got his precious signed xbox 360 cover taken away when he sent in his xbox for repair.
Who cares how many white, black, yellow, pink, purple or orange people are playing video games as compared to some other ethnicity...? Why does that fucking matter? This was the last website I expected to peddle this kind of establishment driven statistically segregating fundamentally trivial bullshit.
What an incredibly racist and ignorant article, and again I am blown away that something this stupid, childish and utterly useless made it on a site that prides itself on information technology news. How in the HELL is this news for nerds?!
You can call me what you'd like, but this is the last of it for me...slashdot has gone to shit, and this is the pinnacle of the bullshit pile.
ArsTechnica has my eyes for tech news.
Please, slashdot editors...get back to the steering wheel...quick.
It's interesting to compare the state of things in the video game industry to the movie industry. These complaints are very familiar to anyone who followed action movies in the eighties. Robert Townsend's Hollywood Shuffle satirized the industry at a time where the bulk of roles for blacks were pimps, criminals or, at best, the gruff sergeant. The leads were always white. Times changed, of course, and no one is surprised when movies like "Serenity" can give nonstereotypical rolls to nonwhites or when Will Smith carries a movie. From what I can tell, the videogame industry quite simply hasn't advanced as much. It's still stuck in the bad old days with the street talkin' black man. It is a bit sad that the best the industry can do is have a black man in a supporting role in something like Halflife 2 (and that is remarkable in its uniqueness) yet the summer is full of movies starring Will Smith or Denzel Washington or Wesley Snipes or a Halle Barry or...
The cake is a pie
yet only 2% of game developers are black.
And the correlation between the two is? That's right there is no correlation and neither should there be an expected correlation.
So black people play games predominantly written by whites, great, white people consume cocaine predominantly manufactured by Latinos and white people also consume heroine predominantly manufactured by people that get the raw ingredients from exceedingly poor farmers in Afghanistan. Should I be expecting most of Columbia to be crack addicts and most of Afghanistan to be Herion addicts? No, so why should I be concerned that there is a disparity between consumption and creation of video games? Jeez, the level of thinking here is *REALLY* poor.
This is a story about nothing.
Breaking news today a Martian arrived on Earth that can play Pacman really well. We fully expect an invasion of Martians that can play Defender, Mr Do's Castle and Robotron equally well.
The mere fact that you refer to Irish, Russian and Italian immigrants rather than European, highlights the difference in how the two groups have been treated, the ease with which they can be identified, and the extent to which they are separated. While there was prejudice, it decreased with subsequent generations and it rarely reached the points where the Blacks, or even the Amerindians, were better off.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
Also, I think there's an osmosis issue. Women are just now fronting their first legitimate Presidential candidate 80 years after getting the vote. It takes time for people to push through barriers and trickle into career fields they previously had no access to.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Fifty years ago, purple people were the staple food of a visiting alien, so presumably they at least made a decent lunch.
-- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.
Yes. But we are talking about video gaming - and a game is more than code. That is the fundamental reason why anything new out of iD looks and plays like a tech demo. Why the original Half-Life remains in print after ten years.
Chinese are producing 99% of world textiles, yet they are only 1/5th of textile product users. Something should be done about this; perhaps rest of the people, e.g. Danish Afro-American programmers should be permanently naked?
/. ?
Who let this dumb article on top page of
can't we all just get along? There is no need for any race/ethnicity to be treated any differently than any other. We are all just people and should be treated as such.
There's a dark side to it, though. Most geeks I've met seem to think you're weird if you take any particular pride in your ethnic/racial heritage.
The only 'obsession' Americans have in regards to classification of ethnicity is the resurgence of pride certain ethnic groups feel in regards to their heritage. Back in what I would term 'the good old days' of immigration (Ellis Island as gateway to America) everyone did what they could to fit in, and adapt to their new country. Today it seems, everyone does what they can to differentiate themselves to show how special they are relative to everyone else. This has gone way overboard, in my opinion.
The classic example of this is the term 'African American' becoming more prominently used and preferred (due to politically correct thinking) in the United States. This choice of words is more acceptable the thinking goes, than simply using the term 'black'. I believe black people prefer to use this term as it somehow sounds better, and gives the sense of some special, unique classification, or entitlement. In contrast, even though I have a varied European background (half Slovakian, part German, French, and Scottish) I have no issue with being called 'white' and wouldn't expect anyone to call me 'Slovakian American'.
I think it's silly.
I can't say that is my experience. In my experience, people love to talk about their heritage if they know about it.
Unless you are talking about off-the-deep-end types that trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower and try to find other Mayflower ancestors to marry. Yeah, they are weird.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Not a single black person I know has ever said "African-American." They say "black." They will actually laugh at you if you say "that African-American guy" instead of "that black guy."
That is not to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of historic white America, either, but you would be hard pressed to convince me that those past injustices played no role in this current situation.
Your brain is not a computer.
As you say, the conditions are not the same. In the 50s you could find a good paying factory job and be a good hard-working middle-class family. You could probably pay for your kids to go to college.
Just try coming out of the ghetto with no degree and see how far you get in life today - no matter what race you are.
I'm not trying to romanticize the 50s or anything, just trying to point out that the economic situation is much different. The service jobs available to poor inner city workers today are not anything like the factory jobs available in the same cities 50 or 60 years ago.
Also, there ARE a lot of blacks in the US who are in the middle class now - been to Harlem lately? It's a multi-million dollar neighborhood these days. Very expensive and still very black. The black middle class is growing very, very quickly. This is, I believe, because institutionalized racism is finally on the wane.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
When is MTV going to address the lack of white rappers? Entertainment is often produced by one group of people, and consumed by another. How many rap/hip-hop CDs are purchased by white kids? It's tragic.
Interestingly, 99% of people who purchase gasoline received from Big Oil aren't as rich as the people who "provided" it. Aren't statistics fun!
I agree, although as a straight, caucasian man I would like to add that having friends who are being discriminated against tell you of their experiences can also make you more aware of it. I believe that's why talking about this stuff is important - because in my optimistic opinion, when most people are made aware of their prejudices and the effects they have on other living, breathing, individual people (as opposed to "black people" or "lesbians" in general), they will work to change their ways.
Your brain is not a computer.
Not only that, but white male protagonists abound in almost all games. Blacks are significantly under-represented even though they play a significant percentage. There are many Asian people that play and program as well, and they are significantly under-represented in videogames.
Are white people more racist that they can't play anything else other than a white man?
Well going online only affirms the assumption that white people are more racist - not genetically of course, but we live in a society that accepts white people as the center of the world. Nothing in the world happens without a white man.
(You can see this in movies and TV shows too - how many blacks/asians did you see in NYC in Seinfeld or Sex in the City?)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
=)
Your brain is not a computer.
Since 1995 I only have come across 1, 2, 3... actually 3 black guys only who are working as programmers. Not a single black woman programmer. I really wonder sometimes are there any black women programmers?
Does anyone know?
At the end it doesn't matter who programs the software though, it's either working or not working but who cares who wrote it?
You can't handle the truth.
Usually, but not always. Neither of my parents graduated high school and 3 of 4 of us children have advanced degrees (1 is a dentist). No, I'm not the 1 of 4 with just a high school diploma...fortunately I'm not the dentist either (I'm not putting my hands in anyone's mouth, except my kids' to pull a loose tooth).
Look at how they collected the data and how old the study is. Also, I don't and will never buy into the idea that every industry has to reflect the overall gender/age/racial breakdown of a country, state, city, whatever. Could the game industry use more diversity? Sure, but like any industry it's up to people that want to work in that business to step up and get jobs or create companies that reflect what they want to see in games.
On the flip side, immigrants of European descent are able to benefit from the system of prejudice that benefited the majority white population. Right ?
Like the irish (aka white nigger), right? How about the italians? They weren't officially white until recently.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
How am I to know that someone is american at all? They may not be a citizen, and they may not care either - better to go on visible characteristics. Black covers the a.a. thing as well as avoiding the question of where they're from, which I often don't know. Asians are fairly easy to identify by physical characteristics, so why not?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I dont't know how many black guys are in IT at all, not only in gaming, but I guess there aren't that many. I suppose it's because they just don't like it and their brains are not wired for this. I know this sounds racist - but I think it is true - poverty and lack of education is no excuse - there are many young russians, for instance, who are very good programmers with a very poor background, so why blacks are not? Because they don't like it and prefere to play various sports, various video games and do other stuff.
So what percentage of the above do each race participate? Now take that list and throw it away because nobody cares.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
that one race can successfully program for another race.
Okay, here's the complete story on skin color: First for the base. Human skin in and of itself is fairly translucent. Blood, however, is fairly red, leaving a pinkish hue. There's a brown pigment (melanin) and a yellow pigment. It's the presence of the yellow pigment that changes the hue between east Asians and Europeans, and the degree of melanin that changes the saturation.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Finding Mayflower ancestors to marry seems like a fool's errand. They're all dead. Or did you mean "descendants"?
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Heh, yeah. The people seeking to mate with Mayflower ancestors are even more disturbing :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
As you say, the conditions are not the same. In the 50s you could find a good paying factory job and be a good hard-working middle-class family. You could probably pay for your kids to go to college.
You can do that today too. The problem is, we've changed what we perceive as necessary. In the 50s, chances were you shared a room with your siblings, your house had one bathroom, your family had one car. There was one TV, food was made at home rather than eaten out, and things weren't bought new every 2-3 years. Also, most people owned their homes for longer than the 6-8 years that people these days do, when you got too much shit, you didn't move into a bigger house, you sold some stuff.
It's not so these days. Your average house has 2 TVs, 2 cars, a minimum of 2 computers, gameboys for each of the kids, a Wii and an Xbox 360. The home audio system is a brand new surround sound system and oh by the way, all those cars, tvs and toys were bought on credit.
Middle class living today doesn't correlate with middle class wages. And the problem isn't the wages, its the people trying to live above and beyond their means.
Just try coming out of the ghetto with no degree and see how far you get in life today - no matter what race you are.
I didn't come out of the ghetto, but I did come out of a lower class family (one working parent, the other sunk a lot of money into a failed business). I have no college degree (dropped out) and in 3 years I've gone from bringing in $8/hr part time to a full time middle class income. It really isn't difficult, it just takes proper budgeting, proper living and dedication to your job and task at hand.
Also, there ARE a lot of blacks in the US who are in the middle class now - been to Harlem lately? It's a multi-million dollar neighborhood these days. Very expensive and still very black. The black middle class is growing very, very quickly. This is, I believe, because institutionalized racism is finally on the wane.
And yet there are so many who aren't. Racism has been on the wane for quite some time now, the problem is applying one self to things. Bill Cosby goes around the country talking about this, and he's right. There are some great videos of his speeches up on line, but it boils down to one main point, no one is holding anyone down these days except themselves.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
It's time we descendants of slaves brought to the United States let go of the term "African American" and go back to calling ourselves Black - with a capital B. Modern America is home now to millions of immigrants who were born in Africa. Their cultures and identities are split between Africa and the United States. They have last names like Onwughalu and Senkofa. They speak languages like Wolof, Twi, Yoruba and Hausa, and speak English with an accent. They were raised on African cuisine, music, dance and dress styles, customs and family dynamics. Their children often speak or at least understand their parents' native language. Living descendants of slaves in America neither knew their African ancestors nor even have elder relatives who knew them. Most of us worship in Christian churches. Our cuisine is more southern U.S. than Senegalese. Starting with ragtime and jazz, we gave America intoxicating musical beats based on African conceptions of rhythm, but with melody and harmony based on Western traditions. Also, we speak English. Black Americans' home speech is largely based on local dialects of England and Ireland. Africa echoes in the dialect only as a whisper, in certain aspects of sound and melody. A working-class black man in Cincinnati has more in common with a working-class white man in Providence than with a Ghanaian. With the number of African immigrants in the U.S. nearly tripling since 1990, the use of "African American" is becoming increasingly strained. For example, Alan Keyes, the Republican Senate candidate in Illinois, has claimed that as a descendant of slaves, he is the "real" African American, compared with his Democratic rival, Barack Obama, who has an African father and white mother. And the reason Keyes and others are making arguments such as this is rather small, the idea being that "African American" should refer only to people with a history of subordination in this country - as if African immigrants such as Amadou Diallo, who was killed by police while reaching for his wallet, or Caribbean ones such as torture victim Abner Louima have found the U.S. to be the Land of Oz. We are not African to any meaningful extent, but we are not white either - and that is much of why Jesse Jackson's presentation of the term "African American" caught on so fast. It sets us apart from the mainstream. It carries an air of standing protest, a reminder that our ancestors were brought here against their will, that their descendants were treated like animals for centuries, and that we have come a long way since then. But we need a way of sounding those notes with a term that, first, makes some sense and, second, does not insult the actual African Americans taking their place in our country. And our name must also celebrate our history here, in the only place that will ever be our home. To term ourselves as part "African" reinforces a sad implication: that our history is basically slave ships, plantations, lynching, fire hoses in Birmingham, and then South Central, and that we need to look back to Mother Africa to feel good about ourselves. But what about the black business districts that thrived across the country after slavery was abolished? What about Frederick Douglass, Ida B. Wells, W.E.B. Du Bois, Gwendolyn Brooks, Richard Wright and Thurgood Marshall, none born in Africa and all deeply American people? And while we're on Marshall, what about the civil rights revolution, a moral awakening that we gave to ourselves and the nation. My roots trace back to working-class Black people - Americans, not foreigners - and I'm proud of it. I am John Hamilton McWhorter the Fifth. Four men with my name and appearance, doing their best in a segregated America, came before me. They and their dearest are the heritage that I can feel in my heart, and they knew the sidewalks of Philadelphia and Atlanta, not Sierra Leone. So, we will have a name for ourselves - and it should be Black. "Colored" and "Negro" had their good points but carry a whiff of Plessy vs. Ferguson and Bull Connor about them, so we will let them
Higher education here is really easy to get. The problem is this belief that you need to go to college to succeed. Also there's this unfortunate belief that going to college means you need to go to Harvard. When I was being pushed into college, I looked into the bigger schools because the idea of going to a small school, or god forbid a community college, was unthinkable. If I wanted to succeed I needed a degree from a college with prestige. In the end, I wasted 3 years pursuing that degree before I realized it was a waste of money and dropped out. I then went a got myself a nice middle class job, and now I take classes at various higher ed places not to get a degree and get a better job, but to actually learn things that interest me. And even better I can pay for it in cash because I worked my way into a job that gives me that sort of income. And as I continue to work my way up the ladder, when I reach a position where I "need" a degree, they will pay for it.
If you want to go to college in this country you can. And almost without fail you can do it without paying for it yourself. Someone will always pay for it, you just have to work for it.
This belief that somehow college is unattainable in the US is false. In the absolute worst case scenario (too rich to qualify for aid, assistance and other programs, too poor to get parents to pay, too lazy to fill out scholarship apps, too unemployed to get payed by your company, and too "privileged" to qualify for minority scholarships) there are multitudes of banks all willing to lend you all sorts of money at reasonable interest rates that you don't need to pay back until you graduate. And you might say that isn't a solution because then you have to pay back the loans, but I say if getting your degree didn't enable you to pay back those loans, then it was a lousy investment.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
One of the custodial guys where I used to work works a day job assembling umbrellas in North Philly for a whopping $9/hour and no benefits. He then commutes out to the 'burbs by bus for 45 minutes to clean the office at the same rate. The man is lucky if he pulls in $28k/year. He doesn't have a car, and he rents a place in a crappy part of town.
I'm not saying his situation is impossible, but it's much different than having a factory income with benefits that let your wife stay home to raise the kids. it just takes proper budgeting, proper living and dedication to your job and task at hand. You are a success story, and that's great. Statistically, though, you are probably in the minority. Even you have the distinct advantage of not having to grow up in the ghetto. You were surrounded by role models who showed you what could be. You (presumably) did not have to support kids while making $8/hr. And yet there are so many who aren't. This isn't as true as it once was. Only 1 in 5 blacks live in the city anymore. Much of the blame for the dismal earnings statistics lies in demographics; blacks disproportionately live in the poor Southern states. When compared with whites in the same demographic areas, they fare quite well - actually surpassing whites in many areas. For instance, 15 years ago in Queens. no one is holding anyone down these days except themselves. That's not entirely true, but is becoming more and more true every day. I think that is why you are seeing a huge spike in the black middle class. It's not like there is something about black character that makes a black person more or less likely to be impoverished than someone descended from potato-famine Irish. And it's not like the Irish have completely shed their stereotypical image of being lazy alcoholics - even all these years later.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
African Americans spend more money and time playing video games than whites...
... This statement is totally transparently bullshit. So why is it a Slashdot headline?
This is a bullshit statement. African Americans in the USA are only 9-12% of the population and half of them are in the very low-income bracket. In the target demographic (15-34 year old males), 5-10% of African Americans are in jail. They don't have Play Stations in their cells.
Whites (including Spanish speakers) are 80% of the USA population. They are concentrated in the high income brackets. The highest percentage of video game media and equipment
So how the hell could a population that is only 12% be spending more money in an area where the other 88% has more money to spend? Even if all the blacks were spending ALL their time and money they wouldn't be spending more money and time on video games than all the whites.
The statement must mean that African Americans spend a higher percentage of individually disposable money and time playing video games than white people do. But it doesn't say that. It says African Americans spend more money
No you can't... A job at Denny's as a bus boy will simply not pay as much as a job at "Generous Motors" did in the ol' days, despite the educational requirements being the same.
A job at Denny's isn't a job at GM either. People got into GM to make a career. Very few people, even those poor and down and out look at Denny's as a career. If you don't intend on it being one, it won't be. But if you put yourself on a career path, you will have a career.
One of the custodial guys where I used to work works a day job assembling umbrellas in North Philly for a whopping $9/hour and no benefits. He then commutes out to the 'burbs by bus for 45 minutes to clean the office at the same rate. The man is lucky if he pulls in $28k/year. He doesn't have a car, and he rents a place in a crappy part of town.
And if he sets aside a little bit of money, he can save up, and in the mean time he's building experience. As long as he pays attention, he will move up in society. But if he spends all his paychecks on toys, and just does enough to keep his job, of course he will never move up. You don't move up by doing the same thing you've always done.
You also don't get anywhere in life if you settle for the status quo. If he's not happy with the jobs he has and money he earns, he should always be on the look out for something better, and take it when it comes. During the time that I worked part time (with no benefits I might add) I spent some time every day looking at other openings out there. If one came up, I put my name in. Did I always get a call? No of course not, but I was guaranteed to not get a call if I didn't put my name in in the first place.
You are a success story, and that's great. Statistically, though, you are probably in the minority.
The only reason that's so is because most people don't try. You don't get born into management, you work your way there. I didn't do anything remarkable or amazing to get where I am, I just kept pushing forward. That whole saying, "you make your own success" is perfectly true. Opportunities don't come knocking, you get off your ass and find them.
Even you have the distinct advantage of not having to grow up in the ghetto. You were surrounded by role models who showed you what could be.
I was also surrounded by people who showed me what I could be if I screwed up. Ultimately parenting and role models play a large part sure, but at some point, you as a person have to look around you, see the people who are miserable and decide you don't want that for your life, and then do everything you can to avoid their mistakes. I didn't learn my financial management from my parents, they weren't any good at it. What I did do was see that they weren't good at it, and vowed not to be like that, and then sought knowledge elsewhere.
At some point you have to stop blaming everyone else and take charge of your own life. If where you are, or who you associate with or what you do isn't working, then change it. Yeah, working denny's in a dead end town living out of a hole in the wall shit box sucks, so get out of the dead end town. What do you have to lose? Every town has a denny's and shit hole boxes, so move somewhere else, try for new and different opportunities. If denny's isn't paying you enough, ask for a raise or look for another job. It's not like your Denny's job is some prize that you couldn't get again. IF hanging out with the druggies is bringing you down, stop hanging out with them.
You (presumably) did not have to support kids while making $8/hr.
No, I didn't, but I did support an out of work, disabled fiance. But that, and kids are choices. No one forces you to have kids, and no one forced me to get engaged, but if that is a choice you make, then you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of that choice.
Look, if you're pulling $8/hr part time while trying to support a kid on your own, I don't feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for your kids, but obviously you're messing up
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
That is all well in good but if a handful of kids can get something (even if it is shit) then imagine what the parents could get if they actually pulled together and demanded those sort of things.
I'm more than happy to admit a lot of the problem lies with the parents as well as the individual.
But this constant finger pointing at the businesses (who, funnily enough, have the most money) is a load of BS. Yet people demand they do something about it.
Well they don't have time to wait for high schoolers to graduate high school and uni. So they import people.
If parents are happy that poor countries have a superior education system than they do then their kids will never be any better. That's their fault and in fact I think you'll find a lot of things are the fault of parents. They're mostly incompetent these days.
But the individual still has to want to do something and from my experience, the presence of a math class doesn't all of the sudden make girls want to be math geeks.
Your lady loses a lot of points for saying a Paris Hilton is inspiration for anything.
Err, there is more power and wealth to be had for the average programmer as a non-game programmer then as game programmer. The game industry is not a path to power or riches for most who work in it (sure that isn't to say there aren't some folks who do make it big, but they are the exception not the rule). From my own personal experience there simply are not a lot of folks of African decent in the software industry at large in the US and again from my own personal experience this goes back to college. If the percentage of degrees relevant to the game industry among degree holding Americans of African decent is lower then that of degree holding Americans of Europeans decent why does it even matter?
Software Inventor
I suspect that in many cases one of the reasons they require it must be for limiting the social mobility of those who cannot afford one, ie blacks with no wealth.
You are also ignoring the fact that people DO try just as hard as you did, but fail. Sometimes trying isn't enough. Have you ever considered that you may be a bit lucky? That some of your choices were fortunate as well as smart? That you were born with an IQ that enabled you to make good choices? That your parents didn't abuse alcohol or drugs while you were in the womb? That you didn't like in an area contaminated by lead, mercury or other chemicals?
Try hard is good advice, but sometimes it fails. Sometimes people aren't strong enough to handle the pressure. Not everyone is physically equipped to handle what life throws at them. Depression and despair are emotions that all people are susceptible to.
I'm not talking about a magical force. I'm talking about a very real force, measurable, called racism. If you have not experienced it, you are not looking or you live in a homogeneous place. Can you honestly say you don't know any racist people? When I've complained about neighbors, I've had people ask me if they were black.
The very fact that we all seem to accept that Obama is "black" when his mother is white indicates a sick society - on both sides of the color spectrum.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The FIRST slaves, sure. Later, less privileged ex-Europeans, and Chinese, were used as what was the rebranded slavery of "indentured servitude" where your meagre salaries were eaten up by the company store you were forced to buy goods from - and that you got a hefty debt to.
Imagine you're running a marathon, and one group of people get a 300 year head start. Now we let the rest of the people start running and we try to call it a fair race? It's not enough that we're all running, the people who were held back need an opportunity to catch up.
That's what affirmative action is. It's much harder to change economic classes than it is to stay where you are in them. Affirmative action is about letting people catch up so they can advance beyond their parents' social and economic class.
And if you think your parents' socio-economic status has nothing to do with your own, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
That's easy for you to say if your man hasn't run out on you and he was the breadwinner while you stayed home with the kids.
Move in with friends, family or co-workers. No one has to do this on their own. Again, we're talking about choices, and yes, you can't control people but don't you think its odd that a substantial number of children are being raised in single family homes? Do you really think that all of these people were just abandoned by their spouse with the kids? That there are that many people who are psychotic enough to do that? I think its choices. If you put yourself into a bad relationship, you chose that. If you have kids with someone who is untrustworthy, you chose that. And when they do leave you, if you don't move or rearrange your life to make it so that you can succeed while caring for your kids, those are again choices you make. There are always warning signs about these things. It's high time we started taking people to task for ignoring them. Yes I feel sorry for the kid, that doesn't mean I have to feel sorry for you too.
Hows this for a true story. Teenage girl from a broken home followed her husband in the military overseas. Her husband was abusive, and a drug addict, and then abandoned her with a toddler. She continued to make mistakes, got in with a bad crowd and had another child. Then she realized what the hell she was doing, and turned her life around. She got her ass back to the states, and moved in with her ex's parents. She busted her ass, worked many jobs to the point where the doctors told her she needed to cut back or she would kill herself. She put herself in school, made friends with a co-worker and moved into an apartment with said co-worker. She never stopped, always looked for that next rung to grab. She's now a paralegal and both kids are grown up and healthy.
The point is, I've seen a lot of varied situations. But I have never once in my life, seen a situation that could not be improved by choosing to do things a little differently. Perhaps such situations exist, in fact, I'm sure they do. But to say that it's so rampant that so many people across the country for multiple generations can't overcome it? That I just don't believe.
You are also ignoring the fact that people DO try just as hard as you did, but fail.
The only people that fail are those that give up. Again, you're suggesting that so many people around the country are making good decisions and something is just keeping them down. I don't buy it. Find me your worst sob story, and I can find things that you can change to make it better.
Sometimes trying isn't enough. Have you ever considered that you may be a bit lucky? That some of your choices were fortunate as well as smart?
Fortune and luck are only small parts, and often what seems like luck is just making the right decision. I mentioned before my fiance was disabled. She can't work jobs that are physically taxing. She also has no degree, so for the most part, physically taxing jobs (serving, retail etc) are all that's available to her. The problem was though, we kept making the wrong choice. For 2 years all we did was look into those jobs, because that's what she had in the past. Then we decided instead to try a different tack, and on the first hit landed a job that not only pays better than all of the previous jobs, but is less physically demanding and more her style. It's not luck, it's different choices.
That you were born with an IQ that enabled you to make good choices?
Even the smallest child knows that if what they are trying doesn't work, that they need to try something else.
That your parents didn't abuse alcohol or drugs while you were in the womb?
How long should one be allowed to use the failings of their parents as the reason they fail?
That you didn't like in an area contaminated by lead, mercury or other chemicals?
And how many of the people currently living in poverty can lay claim to all of that? As I said, I
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
And if he sets aside a little bit of money, he can save up, and in the mean time he's building experience. As long as he pays attention, he will move up in society. But if he spends all his paychecks on toys, and just does enough to keep his job, of course he will never move up. You don't move up by doing the same thing you've always done.
That is just flat out wrong. Janitorial work does not move you up in society, it doesn't give you enough money to buy toys, and it certainly does not reward good work. I'm guessing you came from a very privileged background.
Move in with friends, family or co-workers. No one has to do this on their own.
They do this. Their friends and family are also dirt-poor and can't really help with the childcare. I think that you'll find a large number of single moms living with their single mom. Poor-as-dirt mom doesn't exactly have a nest egg herself.
Do you really think that all of these people were just abandoned by their spouse with the kids?
No. A lot of them are teenage mothers. There are exceptions, but teenage pregnancy is largely a problem with parenting. A teenage girl is simply not equipped to be thrown out into the world. Having a baby at 14 or 16 severely crimps your career choices.
Yes I feel sorry for the kid, that doesn't mean I have to feel sorry for you too.
I'm asking you to feel sorry for the kid. Or at least understand that a kid with little or no parenting is not going to have as good a chance at life as an adult.
She's now a paralegal and both kids are grown up and healthy.
That's great and even inspirational, but not statistically likely. A lot of people would not be able to handle that situation - simply not equipped. Expecting everyone to be able to do that is like expecting everyone to be proficient at guitar. Also, you make no mention of her background. Someone with a good background might be better equipped to pull themselves out of a hole than someone who has never been exposed to the "good life".
The only people that fail are those that give up.
That is simply not true. That is a platitude. Lots of people fail. Bad luck, no brains, bad health... lots of reasons. Not everyone is equipped to succeed at making money. Making money is just like any other endeavor. I can practice as much as I like - I'll never play ball professionally or play an instrument in a major orchestra.
But to say that it's so rampant that so many people across the country for multiple generations can't overcome it?
Who isn't overcoming it? My mother is the generation that saw the civil rights movement in the US. In her generation, she saw blacks go from so completely marginalized that they couldn't even use the same bathroom, so who knows... maybe President? In one single person's lifetime! I'm 2nd generation, and I've seen a black middle class emerge where none existed. My grandparents would have been absolutely shocked to see a black doctor or lawyer in any mainstream setting, and in just a few decades it's now so commonplace that people wouldn't even look twice. If this rate of progress continues, my daughter may see people stop talking about black vs. white incomes altogether. How can you possibly argue that blacks aren't improving their lot in life?
EVERYONE can do better than abject poverty.
Maybe at a Tony Robbins event, but not in the real world. Be careful with absolutes.
I've known plenty of racist people. So what? It's just another obstacle to avoid or overcome.
An obstacle that, in general, whites don't have to overcome.
If you find racism is harming you, move somewhere else. Get out of there.
Away from your family, friends, and support structure? Does that sound like the type of thing an impoverished person can easily do?
A racist manager doesn't stop you from succeeding at another job.
But it reduces the number of jobs you can be successful at by one per racist manager. A competing white employee rarely sees this impediment.
A racist landlord doesn't keep you from finding another place to live.
A whole neighborhood full of racist landlords might keep you from finding a place to live - at least anywhere nice. Thankfully, this seems to be on the severe decline.
As Bill Cosby put it (paraphrased) "When you tell a black kid who's studying that he's 'acting white', what are you telling him about black people?"
Nerds are
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blacks are over represented in sports and music and entertainment in general. i guess they should not exceed the 10% or so they are of the total population otherwise it smacks of unfairness and depriving others of opportunities.
They do this. Their friends and family are also dirt-poor and can't really help with the childcare. I think that you'll find a large number of single moms living with their single mom. Poor-as-dirt mom doesn't exactly have a nest egg herself.
You don't need a nest egg, you need something to lower your cost of living so that you can build a nest egg.
No. A lot of them are teenage mothers. There are exceptions, but teenage pregnancy is largely a problem with parenting. A teenage girl is simply not equipped to be thrown out into the world. Having a baby at 14 or 16 severely crimps your career choices.
Take away the child. Teenage pregnancy has always been a problem, but years ago, the child was taken away and adopted, either by family or by strangers. These days we let teenage girls ruin their lives and then wonder why they live in poverty. Look, I know it sounds cruel, but if a mother isn't equipped to be raising her child, then she is abusing that child and the child needs to be taken out of that situation.
I'm asking you to feel sorry for the kid. Or at least understand that a kid with little or no parenting is not going to have as good a chance at life as an adult.
Which is why I say take these kids away. Get them into a home where they have a chance. Let's stop pretending that if we throw money or laws at this that it will change the fact that as you said, these people aren't equipped to be parents.
That's great and even inspirational, but not statistically likely. A lot of people would not be able to handle that situation - simply not equipped. Expecting everyone to be able to do that is like expecting everyone to be proficient at guitar. Also, you make no mention of her background. Someone with a good background might be better equipped to pull themselves out of a hole than someone who has never been exposed to the "good life".
I said broken home, but if you would like to know what that means, try an abusive alcoholic father, who didn't want a girl in the first place and made her sleep on a cot in the kitchen because girls didn't deserve to have their own rooms.
And really what is so remarkable about that story that no one else could accomplish? I'm not asking people to become overnight millionaires, but simply moving from unable to feed yourself to self supportive should not be this difficult.
I don't expect everyone to become paralegals. I do expect them to better themselves, and if they CHOOSE to bring offspring into this world, set those children up for a chance to be better.
That is simply not true. That is a platitude. Lots of people fail. Bad luck, no brains, bad health... lots of reasons. Not everyone is equipped to succeed at making money. Making money is just like any other endeavor. I can practice as much as I like - I'll never play ball professionally or play an instrument in a major orchestra.
Making lots of money isn't required to make you more successful. You don't have to play ball professionally and you don't have to play in a major orchestra, and you don't have to be CEO of a company. When you are on the bottom rung of society, ANYTHING is an improvement, so when you're sitting there wallowing in the same filth that your grandparents, and your parents before you wallowed in, the only realistic explanation is that you have allowed yourself to fail.
Maybe at a Tony Robbins event, but not in the real world. Be careful with absolutes.
And it is with this defeatist attitude that people are defeated. Look the real world is harsh to everyone, some people get more second chances than others, but everyone can get somewhere in life if they work at it. Not try, but actually do. Does it mean you might have to make sacrifices? Sure, but name for me a single success story you've heard where the protagonist hasn't had to make a sacrifice. They don't exist. It's no coincidence that every success story you hear follows the same basic pattern, someone crawling hand over fist to make the
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World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Whole families DO leave, but it's not as easy as you seem to think it is to just pick up and leave. The child is not hers. Well, it's certainly not yours. Generally, the guardianship of the child would become whoever is the guardian of the mother. So if a 14-year-old has a kid, the mother of the 14-year-old becomes its guardian.
Still doesn't help with the poverty situation. We all deal with it in some way or another, and only those that give up are ever truly held back by it. Right, so EVERYONE has to deal with favoritism. We are all equal when we have to deal with general favoritism. However, blacks have the ADDITIONAL burden of racism. In aggregate, this is going to serve as an obstacle, even if certain individuals can overcome it. The fact is that, on the whole, there are fewer opportunities available to blacks than to whites. ESPECIALLY when you consider that blacks are over-represented in the poorest states, where whites are also poor as dirt. But running around saying that you can't make it in life because you got lead poisoning or have asthma is just making excuses. A population with lead poisoning will be at a competitive disadvantage compared to a population without lead poisoning. You can shout "work harder" all you want at the disadvantaged population, but it won't change the fact that they have a disadvantage. Take the child away, and tie her tubes if you have to, castrate the guy. I'm beginning to think that you are very, very sick. But when they tease the nerd, they don't tell him he's betraying his white brethren. There's a very important distinction between calling a black kid a nerd, and calling him a whitey. As I said, our society is sick. In studies, black children prefer white kids to black kids. Our society is sick because we can't have an honest discussion about poverty, race and personal responsibility. Agreed. Because when anyone suggests that what is happening may go beyond simple racism, they're ostracized and cast out of the discussion. But you are doing the exact same thing on the other side - arguing that racism should not be an impediment at all. I agree that poverty is not caused by racism alone, but to ignore it as a component is pretty ignorant of reality. Racism is alive and well. We are going the right direction, but it is not yet extinct. How can we in this country have an honest discussion when this is the result of honesty? Agreed. Or when Obama talks about his white grandmother and people fly off the handle. It doesn't make any sense.
But I think you really need to think through the consequences of you "solution" involving forced sterility and taking away people's children. That is scary, scary stuff if you've studied history. You may not be happy with the people who share your opinion.
I think we can end the cycle of black urban poverty in the US by doing what we are doing right now:
1. Improving education
2. Improved housing programs (don't just "stack the poor")
3. Improving the environment
4. Programs such as affirmative action to identify and help combat racism.
I'm probably missing something, but the progress that blacks have made since the late 60's is stunning.
I'm not sure what to do about rural poverty (black or white).
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Lower your cost of living? Below ghetto poverty conditions? I don't think you are being realistic.
Rent / 2 Now you are just being silly. Even if I agreed that it was a good idea for a government to take away people's children as a precautionary measure, it is politically impossible. I can hear the "cultural genocide" claims right now.
Why am I being silly? What's silly about taking a child out of a neglectful situation? Why is neglecting your child somehow less bad if you do it because you're poor rather than lazy? As far as politically impossible, america needs to get over feel good bullshit and get back to doing the practical thing. The one measure that we can get hard numbers on when it comes to being a parent is being able to afford to be a parent. Why then shouldn't we as a society take the practical approach to preventing poverty?
I know it doesn't sound like it, but I'm the last person in the world who wants more government programs and intervention, and I certainly don't relish the thought of the government determining who can be a parent. But if you are going to tell me that it's the government's job to help eliminate poverty, then we need to go all the way, none of this pussy footing around bullshit. We will stop poverty by not making more poor people. And don't give me this bullshit about reproductive rights. You have a right to reproduce if and only if you can provide for your offspring. Otherwise you are committing CHILD ABUSE. Starving your child because you are poor is no morally better than starving your child because you are a psychopath.
You can't force other people to do what you want? Each of those people also has a support system which is different from yours, and they would have to do the same.
If they aren't improving their lives, then certainly one would think they would want to move on too. Again it comes down to choices, if your support system is any good, it will help you, not hold you in the same place. But if you choose to make your support system a system of people that aren't helping you make your situation better and vice versa, that is your choice.
Whole families DO leave, but it's not as easy as you seem to think it is to just pick up and leave.
And living in abject poverty, wondering if you'll be able to afford food next month is easier? Of course it isn't easy but we're talking about your life here. What is your life worth to you? Why isn't your life, why isn't the life of your children worth that hardship? You're just making excuses again.
Well, it's certainly not yours. Generally, the guardianship of the child would become whoever is the guardian of the mother. So if a 14-year-old has a kid, the mother of the 14-year-old becomes its guardian.
Still doesn't help with the poverty situation.
If the mother can't afford to care for the kid, then she doesn't get the child either. Don't you understand? The reason these people remain poor is we allow them to continue to choose to be poor AND to add more poor people to the mix. If 14 year old Jane has a kid because she's raised in a crappy home and her mom Paula can't afford to raise her own kid let alone Jane's then you get the kid out of there. A child shouldn't have to choose between their own family and a family that can support them. They should be able to get both. And if they can't, then the family who can't support them is abusing that child. Surely you agree that children should be removed from those that abuse and neglect them, so why is this any different?.
Right, so EVERYONE has to deal with favoritism. We are all equal when we have to deal with general favoritism. However, blacks have the ADDITIONAL burden of racism. In aggregate, this is going to serve as an obstacle, even if certain individuals can overcome it.
And this is where you and I very much disagree. I find that on the whole, racism is limited to very select and specific instances and individuals. That being the case why would you think that these sel
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World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Nope. I didn't. Nothing I can say will convince you of that I'm sure. But I did come from a background where I was told no one will make my life easier. My life is my responsibility and if I want it to get better, no one else will make that happen except me.
As far as janitorial work, goes, monster.com seems to show that janitorial work across the country, entry level, not senior/management level, brings in between 20-30k/ year depending on where you live (20k being places like alabama, louisiana, and 30K being places like california, new york).
Now, that isn't much to be sure, but for reference that's ~$9.50/hour on the low end and ~$14.50/hour. It's better than flipping burgers and serving food, and when you consider the median incomes in the country, its as good or better than the median for people with a highschool diploma. For a single person it's more than enough to support yourself and put a little bit away. Get a roommate to split the costs of living and you will live quite comfortably if you manage your money right.
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World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
The government should help lift people out of poverty - not eradicate it at any cost. People should always be able to reject government intervention. I mean, you could end poverty by killing all of the poor people. But just because it is effective doesn't make it the right course of action.
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Okay, I'm having trouble getting past the castration/child removal thing.
Thats OK. I figured you would, most people reasonably would. Like I said, I don't like government intervention, so when the government has to get involved, it should be a horrible experience, so that people will do everything in their power to make it so the government won't be involved.
You are castrating/taking away kids without proof of harm. This violates innocent until proven guilty.
Bringing a child into this world you can not financially support is proof of harm. Take them to court if you want, but seriously, this is probably the only part of being a parent we can reasonably quantify. We should use that to our advantage.
You are giving the government permission to determine what kind of people can and cannot have kids. Do you really need me to go into why this is a slippery slope?
No, I'm well aware of the slippery slope, as I said, I don't relish the thought, but we're sliding down other slopes that are less effective at solving the problem and more dangerous to our rights.
Cast aside ideological objections for a moment. As a practical matter, this will force the people you are trying to help into hiding their kids from the government. That means no health care, no school, etc. They will be worse off than they were before.
They already have no healthcare or schooling. Besides, as I said, if you're bringing a child into this world unable to support them, you're a criminal, we don't stop pursuing criminals just because they go into hiding and try and make it more difficult to stop them.
Your "solution" is completely untenable politically. Never in a million years will people sign on to this... why pursue it?
To force people to pay attention and shape up on their own. Gun rights activists police their own very carefully because the threat of government stepping in for them is very real. Same with the ESRB. Society should view reproducing when you can't support kids the same way. Something to be policed carefully because the government solution is worse.
The government should help lift people out of poverty - not eradicate it at any cost.
And what better way to life them out of poverty than remove them from it at birth?
People should always be able to reject government intervention.
They can reject government intervention. Don't become a child abuser and the government doesn't intervene.
I mean, you could end poverty by killing all of the poor people. But just because it is effective doesn't make it the right course of action.
Well, abusing yourself isn't a crime, so killing poor people doesn't make sense, nor does it acknowledge that those people can change their lot in life. But as you said, kids are different.
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World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
People don't die in the US from starvation. At least, it's not common.
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The only way you could effectively find these kids would be mandatory government inspections, probably every year. The inspections would have to be random, or people would just hide the kids. I suppose you could sweep entire neighborhoods, like they do in Iraq when looking for guerrillas.
Now then, what do you base the ability to raise a kid on? Income? What if you live in a rural area and grow your own food? How would you prove that you can grow enough food?
What if a man loses his job? Do you take his kids away until he gets another job?
Have you really thought this through? Is this a government you want to live under? It sounds like some Orwellian nightmare to me. but we're sliding down other slopes that are less effective at solving the problem and more dangerous to our rights. How is providing housing to the poor dangerous to our rights? How is improving schools dangerous to our rights? How is cleaning up urban environments dangerous to our rights? Fighting racism? You are wrong - our rights are not being eroded by our current approach to fighting poverty. You may be right that it isn't happening as quickly as it could, but I won't give up my rights just to fight poverty. I'm willing to help people, but not live under authoritarian rule. They already have no healthcare or schooling. You are wrong. They get free prenatal care. They are born in a hospital, where they are properly documented. They get free inoculations. They can walk into an emergency room at any time and not be denied care. They get free schooling through the age of 18, and the overwhelming majority stay through at least their 16th birthday.
All of that would disappear. You would have thousands of undocumented, uneducated kids living with no inoculations in hiding. What a public health nightmare! Talk about sustaining the poverty cycle!
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