Windows Is Dead – Long Live Midori?

parvenu74 writes "A story from Infoworld is suggesting that the days of Windows are numbered and that Microsoft is preparing a web-based operating system code-named Midori as a successor. Midori is reported to be an offshoot of Microsoft Research's Singularity OS, an all-managed code microkernel OS which leverages a technology called software isolated processes (SIPs) to overcome the traditional inter-thread communications issues of microkernel OSes."

Comments

Prediction

[kalpol]

web-based == subscription model.

Re:Prediction

[dahitokiri]

It would have to be one hell of an expensive subscription to bring in the kind of revenue the other desktop applications Microsoft produces, especially server side stuff.

Re:Prediction

[garcia]

web-based == subscription model.

And quite pointless with people moving to mobile devices instead of desktops. While mobile Internet connections are increasing in availability and bandwidth, they are not mainstream enough to allow Windows to be completely replaced by the model.

Re:Prediction

[jadedoto]

What happens when something like the DNS exploit is applied to Midori?

Re:Prediction

[TubeSteak]

web-based == man in the middle attacks

Can you imagine a MITM on your OS?
Bad guys would no longer need physical access to your box,
Only access to your network.

Re:Prediction

[CastrTroy]

Even if high speed wireless internet access was as wide spread as cellphone access, would that still be enough? There are enough dead zones, that many people would not be able to access their computer at all, which is unacceptable. Also, people seem to forget that the wireless is pretty limited. It works well for now, when people are just downloading email, or browsing a few websites, but I think the amount of bandwidth to run (what would amount to) a remote desktop connection, multiplied by the number of people using windows, would quickly overload any kind of wireless setup we could get. Obviously not everybody would have to use wireless connections, but if everybody who was currently using their desktop on wireless started using a remote desktop on wireless, the system would undergo a lot of strain.

Re:Prediction

[icsx]

Exactly. Microsoft is preparing for virtual computing which means that you have only screen, keyboard and small terminal with internet connection at home. All data and stuff gets placed into Microsoft server and you are using your terminal only to access it - from anywhere that you want.

Re:Prediction

[Hatta]

How does one have a web-based operating system anyway? If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on? Is it just turtles all the way down?

Re:Prediction

[snl2587]

All data and stuff gets placed into Microsoft server and you are using your terminal only to access it - from anywhere that you want.

I'm sorry: I trust no company with all of my data. That's why I don't use Google docs or Microsoft's current document offering. And now they want to store all of my data? I, for one, will gladly continue using Linux.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

If the replacement rate for a desktop computer is 3 years, and everyone buys for $250 and Windows for $130 - that's less than $400 over 3 years... or just over $10 monthly.

If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month... wanna bet I'd have some takers? They'd need 366 million customers to equal their current revenue using this model.

Worldwide, PC sales are supposed to grow to over 250 million/year by 2010, so while their target would be ambitious - it is feasible if they could rope roughly half of new PC buyers into this new model.

Re:Prediction

[geekoid]

web-based=Single point of failure
web-based=loss of market share.

Re:Prediction

[JWW]

Simple. Boot-strap firmware downloaded to your box over the net to your client box when you boot up. The client only needs to have very basic start up firmware to get the os (really os interface - think RDP) to your machine.

Re:Prediction

[sxltrex]

If that's true all I have to say is:

Midori's sour.

Thanks, I'm here all week!

Re:Prediction

[negRo_slim]

If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month...

I concur, there would be probably be tremendous interest. I just wonder if it being a Microsoft branded product wouldn't be a detriment to it's success as opposed to it being judged purely on the merits of what it offers. But allow me to play the devil's advocate for a moment and suggest for gamers this might not be such a bad thing. (Potentially) Less OS on the hard disk could mean lower resource utilization and I'm sure a few enterprising users would find further ways to enhance performance maybe something a kin to tuning current Window's services so as to prevent unnecessary network access?

Re:Prediction

[negRo_slim]

Bad guys would no longer need physical access to your box, Only access to your network.

Any computer connected to a network is a security risk on one level or another.

Re:Prediction

[Dogtanian]

I'm sorry: I trust no company with all of my data. That's why I don't use Google docs or Microsoft's current document offering. And now they want to store all of my data? I, for one, will gladly continue using Linux.

No, no! You're only allowed to use that phrase if you welcome our data-hoarding overlords!

Re:Prediction

[negRo_slim]

Exactly. Microsoft is preparing for virtual computing which means that you have only screen, keyboard and small terminal with internet connection at home. All data and stuff gets placed into Microsoft server and you are using your terminal only to access it - from anywhere that you want.

My we all have such short term memories do we not? The thin client model has been touted as the future in one guise or another since it's hey day.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

I'm sorry: I trust no company with all of my data

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages. If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record. Hell, the big 3 credit agencies have records that are very easy to access.

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

Re:Prediction

[STrinity]

Which is all well and good as long as everything works. If you forget to pay a bill, you're outside a big city, or something goes FUBAR on the server end, you're SOL.

Off site storage is good for backup, but you definitely want to keep everything local in case of an emergency.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

No, web-based == !#%1a120a!@#$!..
CONNECTION LOST

Re:Prediction

[Thyamine]

I'm afraid you may be right. That's the current trend in software and services in general lately. MMORPGs, anti-virus subscriptions, satellite radio, TV (regardless of flavor). For some reason, it actually bothers me that we could end up owning nothing, and renting everything. I'm also worried about the amount of money that is going out the door every month because of all those subscriptions. I'll stick with OS X, thanks.

Re:Prediction

[Ariastis]

Banks are covered by specific laws.

Online services are barely covered and privacy policies are wobbly at best. (They can't even statuate if EULAs are binding contracts for fuck's sake)

Re:Prediction

[baldass_newbie]

They'd need 366 million customers to equal their current revenue using this model.

And that's based on the $10/user model. I'm betting 'corporate' or 'professional' versions would be higher. Look at the difference between Photoshop elements and CS.

Re:Prediction

[Pincus]

If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on?

Microsoft OS? It's gotta be running on Linux.

Re:Prediction

[nizo]

Wanna check your email? That'll be $1. Wanna post to ./?? That'll be $2.

[after searching Clippy pops up]

I'm sorry, I was unable to process your credit card number on file. To see all of the search results, please enter a valid credit card number.

Re:Prediction

[Original Replica]

Can you imagine a MITM on your OS? FBI, RIAA, DHS, your local Police Department, Marketing/Advertising companies, everyone else who wants info about you would no longer need physical access to your box

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

All data and stuff gets placed into Microsoft server and you are using your terminal only to access it - from anywhere that you want.

I'm sorry: I trust no company with all of my data. That's why I don't use Google docs or Microsoft's current document offering. And now they want to store all of my data? I, for one, will gladly continue using Linux.

me too. never!

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll miss my money if you take it.
If you take my data, I have no way of knowing.

Data is personal and private. Money is impersonal and public.

Apples and oranges comparison.

Re:Prediction

[Fozzyuw]

web-based == subscription model.

Yup, first you have to install Linux for free and then logon through Firefox (also free) to subscribe to MS WebOS. =P

Re:Prediction

[Pincus]

The 366 million seems ambitious, but an online model would also curtail some piracy. The equivalent of copying my Windows disk would be to give out my i-Windows login, meaning they would just use my desktop.

Of course, why not, especially if the cost is high, share it between users? Especially if it will support multiple desktops, won't every household maintain one OS for multiple users?

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

# ln -s /usr/bin/firefox /sbin/init

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

[Posting as AC for obvious privacy reasons]

Why do you want to know?

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm usually very anti-government, but...

In all the cases you cite, the business in question is government regulated and data safety is promised by multiple institutions: business, legal, and the federal government.

The case with data stored at Google, Apple (.mac), MS, Amazon (s3), etc. is not nearly as strong.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Money is just money. it is a number between 0 and infinity and indicates only my wealth.

my data is personal and private and hides many felonies I've likely committed unknowingly or knowingly. allowing this data to be housed offsite unduly opens me to the risk of private or government based security breaches.

Re:Prediction

[debatem1]

A very close parallel to what you're talking about already exists- several of them, in fact. Ulteo, for instance, provides a web-based Linux desktop that runs OpenOffice.

If you really want to push the Office-as-a-service idea though, it would be simple enough to do it by taking something like splashtop and put in a VNC, NX, or SSH client, then connect to a grid of application publishing servers. Very simple, pretty clean, and dead cheap to develop. No need for a new OS. The connectivity requirements would be pretty steep, but they always are for systems like this, which (IMHO) is why most people don't use them.

Re:Prediction

[Amouth]

if i remember right Sun has gone to almost all thin client setup internaly.

sure this idea doesn't sound great at first - but in an office environment it is damn nice - it is far far easier to manage a thin client deployment and a cluster of terminal servers than it is to deal with a normaly desktop deployment.

in the past places shot it down cause of the limitations - now days the limitations are few and farther between. and i know Sun for one has been working long and hard to remove the bottle necks and MS is doing better by agreeing to licence citrix's solutions (MS licensing citrix solutions is why we saw such an increase of quality between terminal server 2000 and 2003 and also why you now need to buy a terminal cal for XP pro on server 2003 where XP pro has it's own cal for 2000 - the new call for 2003 is to recover their licenseing cost to citrix)

Re:Prediction

[sheepofblue]

I use multiple banks and mutual fund companies. I also keep cash in the safe. Further I refuse to give personal information on a regular basis. Yes I am that paranoid and I think with good cause.

Re:Prediction

[rho]

They all sucked, that's why they failed. Especially for home use, due to the lack of widespread broadband.

The last decent effort I think was the Javastation (or whatever it was called), as it was introduced around the time that many businesses had robust Ethernet networks. However, it depended on expensive Sun servers, which made it an "enterprise-only" solution. Not bad, but people couldn't take work home with them.

But now, things are different. The home computer spends most of its time fiddling on the Internet, and businesses like controlling what their employees' computers can do. And you can take stuff home with you, thanks to VPNs.

Think of the iPod--it's a very successful thin-client.

Re:Prediction

[Twinbee]

Maybe what he means is that he trusts no one with is data until plenty of other people trust the companies with their data. Jumping on the bandwagon is so much easier/safer (or at least it feels safer) if everyone else is doing it.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Exactly, but full-featured and better-performing.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

If a bank misuses my money, someone goes to jail and there's possible FDIC protection.

If schools or insurance agencies or hospitals misuse my data, they are liable for lawsuits.

If google misuses my data, nothing at all happens to them. There's no precedent for data loss damages, and google's lawyers could break me in half so there's no chance I could set one myself.

Re:Prediction

[DogDude]

Count yourself as one of the few people that want to continue managing your own data. I'm outsourcing data storage as soon as bandwidth is as reliable as POTS. A company that specializaes it knows more about uptime, redundancy, backing up, indexing, etc. than I ever could. Besides, letting somebody else deal with it also offloads a good bit of liability.

The only reason I can see keeping data storage in-house is if it's super-critical, or super-secret. In which case, you've got a whole IT team babysitting it for you, already.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Not apples and oranges. The bank doesn't just have your money. They have information in bucketloads about you... they know everyone you've ever written a check to, everyone you've ever paid electronically, and how much money you make and spend.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry: I trust no company with all of my data

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

One word: porn.

Re:Prediction

[izakage]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money?

At a Credit Union, perhaps?

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

You must be new here.

Re:Prediction

[yukk]

You obviously don't remember the days of Xterms running over 10baseT from a Sun server. Fully graphical workstations playing xtank and so on remotely on less bandwidth than high speed wireless.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Money may be just money, but your transaction history is pure gold.

Re:Prediction

[ivucica]

If there was a free alternative with sufficient compatibility which I don't have to pay for, I would still not subscribe to such a service.

The problem arises when I start being forced to do it. For example, when the machines start using trusted computing to expel a free OS and a free office suite.

Re:Prediction

[infinite9]

Judging form the success of the furniture rental business model, I'd say they can charge $24.95+ a month and still be a huge success.

Re:Prediction

[snl2587]

Yeah, I'm talking about personal data. The "whole IT team" is me alone. And I still would rather do it myself.

Besides, letting somebody else deal with it also offloads a good bit of liability.

Tell that to your customers if they ever sue you. One thing I've learned from handling sensitive information in the workplace is that if you collect it, you are responsible for it no matter where you store it/send it.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the best analogy I have ever seen on this topic. Awesome.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I might be missing something but, I dont think I have seen an article about a major bank accidentally up loading a file, to a ftp site containing a list of every account # and the last year's worth of transactions.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month...

Oh, easily. There are plenty of small and even medium sized businesses that shop out all of their email to hosted Exchange environments. A hosted Office, while I don't think would take off like wildfire, would be a pretty good money maker for someone if done well.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

I think, as you say, some kind of a breakthrough in performance would need to happen or MS is just hitting the crack pipe. It's still interesting that services like Ulteo are starting to pop up despite the bandwidth limitations.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like something Scott McNealy dreamt up . . .

Re:Prediction

[geekymachoman]

"I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages. If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record. Hell, the big 3 credit agencies have records that are very easy to access.

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)"

Banks can do with my money whatever they like, I for one don't give a f, If they give me the money when I want that money. (Of course, its not 'moral' or whatever that they do with my money whatever they like, but... there you go)

With personal data, it's not the same... They can't find out anything about me with dealing with my money, they know only how much I have money. But they don't know what kind of porn I watch, or what im reading, or what someone is writing to me, or something.

Im not a national threat, so i have nothing to hide, but anyway, you wouldn't like to get your mail without envelope, stacked on a pile, where anyone can read it (especially if they WANT to read it), do you ?

My data, my business...

Re:Prediction

[jkabrahamson]

Anybody ever heard of Citrix? This technology and theory has been around for years, dated all the way back to Windows for Work groups. The concept of multiple users connecting to a server through the internet or dumb terminal to serve up Windows or a windows like application is nothing new -- now taking it consumer grade is a different story. If it works like RDP and on the RDP protocol it will be bloated junk...if it works like Citrix and on the ICA protocol then bandwidth would never be an issue. Citrix can work off of 56k modems serving up nothing more than a picture and keystrokes. Sure there is a little lag, but nothing you're not already use to using a modem anyway. Big corporations have gone to virtual computing for quite sometime, especially for travel. I predict they will not only go to virtual computing options for consumers, but probably run the whole thing on VM -- most large companies are doing that now for there employees.

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

You obviously don't remember the days of Xterms running over 10baseT from a Sun server. Fully graphical workstations playing xtank and so on remotely on less bandwidth than high speed wireless.

You do realize that even 10BaseT is faster than most cable modems in the US, right? In fact, the situation is even worse than you'd expect, seeing as how most Internet connections in the US are set up to give downloads more throughput than uploads. A heavyweight application like Office would require a much more symmetric connection than users have today.

Re:Prediction

[mcrbids]

Banks are subject to intense regulatory oversight. Additionally, money in a bank is backed by FDIC which, as we've seen just recently, protected the numerous customers of Freddie Mac. This oversight won't prevent a stupid, but does work to limit the damage to me if my bank does a stupid.

Google is not under such oversight, and if it disappeared tomorrow would take all your data with it. There is *some* oversight a la regulation of a public company, but this oversight is more about stock fraud and the like, not providing any guarantee of customer satisfaction.

Re:Prediction

[SQLGuru]

PSX. Most newer BIOSes have this already. I used it to install Ubuntu on a laptop with no optical drive. Works fairly well.

Layne

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

FDIC?

Re:Prediction

[Tmack]

Think PXE-GRUB. Instead of downloading and launching a minimal kernel and installer (as its used for in most cases for jump/kickstart) it downloads and launches the kernel and other OS binaries needed to run the OS. That the GUI is a browser of sorts isnt much different than if it were a "classic" gui, its just using html/xml/ajax/js/jxta/buzzword instead of the other APIs, and resources are pulled from net addresses rather than localdisc. There are a few AJAX desktops out there already, this would just bypass the need for booting another OS to get an AJAX (silverlight or whatever buzzword this will run on, no I didnt rtfa) capable browser running.

tm

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

Banks are companies, as are brokerages. If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record. Hell, the big 3 credit agencies have records that are very easy to access.

All of these institutions are covered by privacy laws. Example, my school cannot just give my academic record away to anyone that pays. The person asking must either be an employee of the state Department of Education, or a third party that I or my parents have given explicit permission to. Banks, realtors, brokerages, are covered by even stricter laws.

Contrast this with the situation regarding Google, Facebook, et. al. There are no laws covering your personal e-mail. There's no privacy (implied or otherwise) on your Facebook page. If there were, I'm sure that many more of us would be comfortable using these services.

Re:Prediction

[riceboy50]

im in ur netwerk readin ur bits!

Re:Prediction

[phulegart]

You already have the necessary software/firmware on your system. Ever look at your boot device list? Notice that Network Boot option? If your network cable was plugged into an active network, and there was a server you could connect to that would offer you something to boot... you could be booting off your network card now. It has been an option for more than a decade on just about every NIC made... longer for companies like 3COM and Intel.

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

The bank does have all that information. However, the bank is also covered by federal and state privacy laws that prohibit it from disclosing that information to third parties. Many of these online companies, on the other hand, base their entire business model around disclosing the data that you provide them to affiliates.

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

Nah. They just break it up.

Want Windows? Cool! Just $10 / month!
Word? Excel? Outlook? No prob, just another $10 / month.
Project? Access? PowerPoint? No sweat, just pull out another $20 / month each.
You want SharePoint? Exchange? Easy, just $5 / month per seat!

Want each of those? Microsoft is making $90 / month off a single person. For the amount of functionality it provides, plenty of people would pay that. That's over $1000 / year. And no one can save money by sticking to old versions! As software ages and settles, more people are satisfied with old software. A subscription model erases this problem for Microsoft, who sees that trend as probably the most dangerous possible roadblock to growth.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Here's a site you might find VERY interesting.

Re:Prediction

[periol]

or in my case, they know every bill i pay through them, and that i take out lots of cash. they know how much gas i use, because that goes on my credit card. otherwise, they know very little about me.

i have a savings card for the local safeway - i actually have three i use in rotation, with fake names, numbers, and addresses.

at the moment, gmail is the biggest security hole in my life. i'm working on fixing that.

Re:Prediction

[hamid2c]

About a year ago, I read some of the papers published by Singularity researchers. As much as I remember, there weren't anything about a thin client or a web-based OS. In fact, the main idea of their OS is using programming languages techniques (static type-safety and static memory-safety) to isolate different processes. If you look at Singularity from a hardware view , there is just one big address space (and its corresponding process) but in reality there are many Software Isolated Processes managed by something like JVM or CLR (.Net run-time). As a consequence, the OS gets rid of all of those hardware-costs related to management of different address spaces in Memory Unit. To the extent I remember from my OS course, current operating systems use virtual memory to prevent one process from reading or modifying another process's address space (every process has one big address space from 0 to for example 4 GB and there is no way to have any kinda access to address spaces of other processes. i.e. the physical memory is completely hidden from the processes and they can see only their own virtual memory). As you might know, Virtual memory is completely interlinked with hardware and has its own cost. However, if they don't use hardware to isolate processes, what they use instead? To answer this question, suppose that you have a program that you are sure about its memory safety. That is the program doesn't violate its own memory boundary. In such a case you don't have to check this invariant at run-time on every memory access (or give the program a virtual address space). In fact, Singularity verifies the memory safety of every program before running it. Programs are not pure binaries and are some kinda intermediate languages like java byte-code or MSIL that can be easily verified. You may think by this kinda verification you have a bigger opportunity to download and execute codes on the fly something like JVM and java applets. After all, with having these light processes, you can think of a micro-kernel OS consisting of many processes communicating with each other.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

But banks could data-mine your records and find out all sorts of personal details. Then your money is no longer just money - it is personal data.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Laws only get you so far:
Behold

And that's just stuff people have bothered throwing up on attrition.org.

Re:Prediction

[PixelSlut]

But you don't need consistent access to that data at all times of day. Storing your work documents with Google or something (in a non-backup way) strikes many of us as a way to potentially screw yourself over when you suddenly desperately need a certain file and your network is down or something.

Also, in terms of practicality I have to say that I wouldn't know what to do with a few hundred thousand dollars myself. What am I going to do, stuff it under my bed? I feel like there is a purpose in having institutions that make it their business to do with my money what I can't really do myself. For me it's not out of paranoia that I don't store files with Google, but that I don't see the point. I don't NEED Google to store my files, I've been doing it for years myself.

Re:Prediction

[Chris Mattern]

Also, money is fungible. Put dollars in, get dollars out. There's no real problem provided that the bank doesn't do anything to improperly endanger the "get dollars out" part. But your data can be read and put to use by app provider and you'd never know.

Re:Prediction

[Braino420]

web-based == man in the middle attacks

Can you imagine a MITM on your OS?

If only there was a protocol that allowed some type of encryption that prevents MITM attacks over the internet... Man, if there was, I bet everyone would use it.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

But don't you think that there is a big difference between saying, "I won't trust a company that sells my data to house my data," and "I won't trust ANY company with my data."?

Re:Prediction

[UncleTogie]

They have information in bucketloads about you... they know everyone you've ever written a check to, everyone you've ever paid electronically, and how much money you make and spend.

Is that assuming that I'm only using one bank across said time period, or are you positing that my very first bank is spilling the beans on all my business with them to any financial institution that asks later?

If the former, it'd be a good reason to switch banks every few years for the über-paranoid.

If the latter, I'd love to hear details...

Re:Prediction

[iceborer]

They can't even statuate if EULAs are binding contracts for fuck's sake

I believe that you may have envocabularized a word who existence was not heretofore knowledged.

Re:Prediction

[techno-vampire]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages.

Irrelevant. Your bank doesn't need to know about your stock portfolio unless it's also your broker; same goes for your mortgage. There's no reason for it toh have any access to your medical records or employment history among other things. Yes, all this and more is stored in electronic form at various places, but it's spread out, compartmentalized and no one archive has access to anything other than what it needs.

I think that the OP is worried that using an OS like this would end up with some sort of centralized repository where all of his data is in one place, and one security breach can expose everything at once. Personally, I doubt it, but I do admit that Microsoft does seem to encourage people to do exactly that, so I won't rule out the possibility.

Re:Prediction

[croddy]

By no stretch of the imagination is the Ipod a thin client. It is a portable computer.

Re:Prediction

[BronsCon]

I think he means he trusts no company with all of the data he created. The data they create themselves is theirs to lose or corrupt as they see fit.

I know if MS lost my project proposal an hour before a meeting where I am supposed to present it, I'd be pretty pissed. If Equifax, Experian and Trans Union lost my credit report, I'd be overjoyed to get a fresh start.

Re:Prediction

[xrayspx]

Here is exactly that. Banks (Bank of America), uploaded, via FTP, customer data to Acxiom, which got stolen and used by spammers. Could have been worse, this guy seems to have thrown away everything he didn't need to send spam. The original investigation was a different gent who accessed customer info while a contract employee at Acxiom.

Attempts were made to make it a legal requirement to notify the public after such a breach, I don't know the status of those laws.

Re:Prediction

[AtariEric]

Under my mattress, duh!

Oh, wait; crap - Igottagomoveitnow!

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages. If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record. Hell, the big 3 credit agencies have records that are very easy to access.

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

Who said I trust banks with my money? I keep it all buried in my lawn... which is why I want you off of it. Now.

Re:Prediction

[ameyer17]

That might give Linux and BSD a chance to gain significant market share.
Sure, Linux and BSD may not be as interoperable as Windows (Thanks, Microsoft) but $1000/seat/year might be enough of a cost for people not to care,

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Banks are also backed by the FDIC. so when they lose all your money, guess what, you get it back. What happens when microsoft loses all of your files. can the government give you your files back?

Re:Prediction

[Bobb Sledd]

Yes, it is apples and oranges.

If the bank knows they lost $1000 of my money, they can replace it with a similar $1000 and it will spend just the same.

If an online company loses 1000MB of my data, they cannot just replenish it with another 1000MB of similar data. Although I wouldn't put it past them to try.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Personally, I only use Google Docs for collaborative stuff - that's where the value-added is. But if MS or some other vendor came up with some value-added proposition that involved me keeping files on their server, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it out of hand.

That said, I haven't seen this compelling use case yet and I broadly agree with you.

Re:Prediction

[ShieldW0lf]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money?

I don't keep my money in a safety deposit box because that would be against the rules.

Re:Prediction

[rho]

By no stretch of the imagination is the Ipod a thin client. It is a portable computer.

Maybe the iPod Touch is. The iPod, however, isn't much good without iTunes and a desktop computer.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Not much good when all the ISP's are implementing LOW LOW transfer caps.

One ISP in NY has just implemented a 5gb cap

Re:Prediction

[Sandbags]

I also doubt we'll see server OS as a web based model, and a large pportion of their revenue if from servers and server licencing. and I do expect the corporate desktop and advanced business editions of office would cost more as well. Of course, many of the businesses already are on a subscription model (Volume Licence plus Software Assurance = free copies on new release for nominal yearly fees)

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

you already trust banks with all your money, you trust restaurants and stores to prepare food for you, you trust doctors to treat your body, so what is so precious in your data that you won't trust a bit more?

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

It would be simple enough to allay peoples concerns about privacy by simply encrypting the remote storage. Mozy does this already for backup.

But when considering security of your data, you have to think of some other things when making the comparison:
1. Is your box likely to be stolen from your home? If so, what is the risk that the thieves will then pull sensitive data off of the machine - or sell it to someone who does?
2. What is the risk of YOU getting breached by a hacker vs. MS getting breached by a hacker? I've cleaned hacker tools off of enough of my relative's computers to not get too cocky about my security.

Even if you are doing something illegal, the government can bust in and take your equipment just as easily as they can bust into MS. Having your stuff online might even allow you to insulate yourself from the data by doing your bad stuff from stolen Wifi through TOR or some other such thing.

Re:Prediction

[BronsCon]

$150 every 6mo for an upgrade. That's $300/yr.

Even at $24.95/mo, you'd be saving 60 cents a year on OS upgrades by ditching OSX. $25 is the break-even point for you OS X'ers.

Windows users (I'm talking about yoru average user, not your average /.-reading user), on the other hand, what, with having to pay for AV, pay for virus removal when the AV fails (read: they forget to update), pay for electricity while they can't use their computer during multiple reboots each month for updates and crashes, paying for new hardware every time a service pack is released because they insist on buying the rock-bottom cheapest most bare-bones system that can barely run the OS. Well, for them, the break-even point would be closer to $100/mo.

Linux, BSD and Solaris users, well, we're a fun bunch. You see, $0.00/mo is our break even point. Until, that is, you add freedom to the equation. That, my friends, is priceless. You couldn't pay us enough to switch.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

I was referring to the information that they have on you, not necessarily the cash.

Re:Prediction

[evilviper]

Banks are companies, as are brokerages.

I have several years of hard-copies of bank statements, and I make sure I don't go over the FDIC limit, so I'm not losing any money, no matter how incompetent my bank may be.

If you're talking about privacy, there are extremely strict laws that govern banks, while there are none at all for Microsoft and Google. I know exactly what my bank is allowed to do with my information, and should any leak, they'll be facing serious penalties.

If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record.

Should that data be destroyed in a fire, I really won't care in the slightest. I have copies of everything I might need. There are also laws restricting how they can use that information.

But it's all an apples and oranges comparison, anyhow. I don't trust my bank to keep my money physically secure, nor their abilities to keep their computers up and running. I just trust that I'll still get the equivalent amount of money back even if something bad happens.

With online data storage, you can't present a receipt that shows a list of what files you had, and require them to present you with replacements... Money isn't so unique as data.

Additionally, if my bank closes for a few weeks after a natural disaster or similar, I will do just fine with the money I have on hand. With online data storage, there's no such margin of safety. My data is either available to me and functioning, or it's not. In the later case, I'm rather screwed.

Re:Prediction

[Ilgaz]

There is already a running "OS inside browser" thanks to gigantic processing/bandwidth provided by Amazon services.

http://g.ho.st/ (warning flash haters: It is written in Flash)

For such usage, you automatically choose the minimum overhead, most secure and least maintanance needed OS. None of such features resemble Windows.

Let me tell what will happen if MS didn't take their lesson. They will require .NET (something) and it will somehow best work (if not only) on IE.

Another waste of millions or (if you count .NET) billions of dollars trying to re-invent wheel in an evil way.

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

Certainly the home and small business markets will take a second glance. And it's not to say that Windows licensing as it is today will be dead.

Re:Prediction

[cdhgee]

We seem to almost full circle back to the days of thin clients, when the actual Operating System ran on a server somewhere and you just run a very basic piece of client software on your actual computer. Only this time, the client computers and software are much more powerful than they were in the days of thin clients and remote X sessions.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is everyone here just universally paranoid?

And just who is asking?

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Oh, you are referring to data loss. I was referring to the risk of data theft.

In the case of data loss, backup rules still apply even in the online world.

Today you wouldn't show up to a really important presentation without a hard copy - or at least a copy of your presentation on several different media (CD, thumbdrive, laptop, etc) and in the future you shouldn't rely on the internet connection either.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

With online data storage, you can't present a receipt that shows a list of what files you had, and require them to present you with replacements... Money isn't so unique as data.

Yeah, I assumed the original poster was concerned about privacy and not data integrity. In the case of data integrity, it should be a no-brainer not to "trust" MS, just as you shouldn't "trust" your hard drive.

Personally, I keep a local mirror plus I use Mozy offline backup. That way, even if I'm burglarized or there's a fire I have a backup. I'm not willing to lose all of these digital-only family pictures.

Re:Prediction

[djp928]

You don't understand what a thin client is.

Think if your iPod, every time you turned it on, had to connect via WiFi to a server at your house in order to do anything at all. A thin client has just a tiny OS that basically has no functionality whatsoever except the ability to make a network connection to a server and get you logged in. Windows thin clients are usually run off WinCE or Embedded XP, but you generally have zero interaction with the OS burned into the firmware--it's only there to pop up an RDP screen and let you connect to some other machine.

If all your iPod could do was connect via WiFi to your home computer and run iTunes on your home computer and stream the music back to your headphones, then you could consider it a thin client. But the GP was right--your iPod is just a mini computer. It has its own OS and it runs iTunes locally, not remotely.

Re:Prediction

[KGIII]

I believe that Wyse had something along those lines in the works a few years back. They were caching to their thin client. I am not sure if they still do this or not and I think it may have needed to be tied with Citrix.

Side note: I'm not exactly sure how Wyse has stayed in business so long. I've only seen them implemented for one state agency and never in the private sector.

Re:Prediction

[BornAgainSlakr]

Well, you can make academic arguments one way or the other, but the reality is that you have no real choice to keep your money in a bank. I mean, you personally might be able to keep your money in a personal safe. However, the economy would collapse if everyone did.

If you realize that you have to keep your money in a bank, you realize that you have to give up some personal information in the form of bank records and credit card records. Are the laws strong enough to serve the people by protecting that information? Certainly not, but that's a different issue.

We have to make choices to limit our exposure. Choosing not to use Google docs, Gmail, etc. is certainly not inconsistent with choosing to store your money in a bank.

Re:Prediction

[mrdoogee]

I just scan all my cash and then upload it to Picasa.

Re:Prediction

[BornAgainSlakr]

Damn it... "...no real choice but to keep your money in a bank."

Re:Prediction

[zlogic]

But what if the server belongs to the same organization that's using the software (like Sharepoint)? Admins would definitely like this since users won't be able to break, misconfigure or infect their PCs. And things like hardware or software updates or new software installations can be done from a central location without going to every PC and distracting users from doing work.
However when everything is web-based the client OS doesn't matter, and Windows on the desktop can be easily replaced with something else. I think that's actually the direction Microsoft may be heading - selling server software that works with thin clients. Windows 2008 server (and probably 2003 too) usually gets favorable reviews, unlike Vista.

Re:Prediction

[hvm2hvm]

Yeah, this is similar to internet voting. It's not better for the user to vote on the internet but a lot easier for the counters and the ones that fix votes. In this case, it's not much better for users to use this OS but it's a lot easier for companies like Microsoft to hand everyone's computer to the government.
I would never use a web-based OS, it's risky enough to visit a website everyday. Why would I ever want to let my computer run code that comes from the network?

Also, needing a connection to be able to use your computer is 100% retarded. There is absolutely no gain big enough to cope with that.

PS: some may say that my first paragraph is paranoid or just another conspiracy theory. While I agree it's far fetched and I hope it's not true you can't allow for this things to go unnoticed. You have to be cautious about these things because if you stop doing that, the next generation will not even think about them and they'll become very easy to manipulate.

Re:Prediction

[gbjbaanb]

1. single address spaces are more common than you think. Not everyone runs Windows (where virtual memory models - in software - were put in place because of legacy CPU architectures)(read up on Large Memory Model windows programming with near and far pointers).
Such things are obsolete today (on 64-bit architectures), but still around in the form of PAE on 32-bit.

2. VMM access is done through hardware, this is not slow.

3. Often the issue with memory safety is not 1 app overwriting anothers, but one app overwriting the same apps - a lot of code runs in "aggregated" processes (eg a web server running code).

4. Remember that a managed memory model (with a GC) does not guarantee memory safety. You can easily get objects that are permanently used and exhaust your memory as a simple example.

5. even if the managed memory model got rid of all the "hardware-costs", it introduces much more serious software costs. In the singularily overview the authors admit they had to make big changes to the GC and admit it is not suitable for all types of application (quote: For example, a
generational garbage collector may introduce seconds-long pauses in program execution, which
would disrupt a media player or operating system. On the other hand, a real-time collector
suitable for the media player might penalize a computational task)

6. Next do a search for 'Java memory safety' and see the links that pop up.

Singularity is interesting, but I doubt they'd really make an OS out of it, especially a web-based one. Possibly some of it will find its way into Windows though.

Re:Prediction

[debatem1]

Well, the traditional emphasis of services like this has been migrating the computational burden away from the client, but if their emphasis is purely on pushing a subscription model, Midori might be closer to PXE than VNC. The performance of a system like that is pretty much undisputed, but it cuts the usefulness of it too, since you need a beefier client.

In the alternative, since lag has been the big problem, they may have come up with some prefetching mechanism to ensure that a system with a good deal of RAM (easy to fit on small devices) but a sucky processor (common on small devices) connected to your service could approach the performance of systems with a faster CPU/GPU.

Another possibility is that they have simply come up with a great way to lock the hell out of a machine- remotely checksum all the elements of the system, run it all as managed code, and keep it connected so Trusted Computing works, it's pretty much a DRM wet dream.

Re:Prediction

[Bugs42]

Nonesense.
It was a perfectly cromulent word, the use of which embiggens us all.

Re:Prediction

[Lord Apathy]

Well it all depends on how you use it. Back when I was married to The Bitch we had one master computer running linux that we both used. Sharing time on it was a bitch because I used it for work, and she used it for play. To solve this issue I rounded up a old '486, a 20 MB HD, and a 15" display. Piece of crap. I installed a very slimmed down linux, just enough to boot and connect the X server to central host.

She had her play computer and I had a work computer and everything was fine.

Actually there is was a interesting turn on that set up. After we separated her and some of her cult buddies broke in to my house and stole that X terminal I made her. I found out through a friend that they did that because they didn't me reading the email she left on "it" or having access to her icq logs. I found it very amusing that she had stole the wrong computer.

And if you wondering. Yes, I did look through the icq logs and email. I did show them to the judge and use them in court. I found out her nuttiness was more nutty then I ever imagined. I found out she had been abusing my son and what she had planed. So if your going to bitch about her privacy or some such BS, save it.

Re:Prediction

[westlake]

I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages.
.

The banker is not a blabbermouth.

He isn't looking over my shoulder whenever I dictate a letter.

He isn't reading our internal reports and planning documents - and - no matter how richly deserved - he isn't feeding the minutes of our daily conference calls to Scott Adams and The Simpsons.

Re:Prediction

[Exanon]

I am just wondering: If the internet backbone is already stressed (as alleged) in some countries, wouldn't this put extreme load on it?

There is something else to consider: Signed applications. Are we going to be able to run anything we want or is it going to be a "locked box"? Are we going to have all activity logged? How is the DRM going to work?

I am growing more inclined to switch to Linux everyday now.

Re:Prediction

[_KiTA_]

Exactly, but full-featured and better-performing.

For A Microsoft product?

Obviously you're new around here.

Re:Prediction

[TryPingingIt]

Your "virtual browser" is running on top of your hypervisor that's installed into your machine?

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

i guess when they say operating system they really mean just replacing the shell with internet explod^Hrer

bring on the layoffs :\

Re:Prediction

[kramer2718]

If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month... wanna bet I'd have some takers?

Interesting thought...

On the other hand, Google is making their on-line office utils more and more capable every day. Think there might be a price war? How do you undercut free?

Also, companies will feel pretty queasy about their highly sensitive data being hosted on some MS server somewhere...

Re:Prediction

[Tumbleweed]

Exactly. Microsoft is preparing for virtual computing which means that you have only screen, keyboard and small terminal with internet connection at home. All data and stuff gets placed into Microsoft server and you are using your terminal only to access it - from anywhere that you want.

Welcome to the 70s! All that will have changed from the mainframe/dumb terminal model is the method of connecting to the mainframe. Man, all that time and money wasted with personal computer operating system development!

I can't wait for the cycle to turn again so we can go back to 8-bit desktop machines. "They use so little power at 32nm, they're super-green!" You watch...an 8-bit machine made using modern lithography and hardware-accelerated HD video playback is all anyone really needs. :)

Re:Prediction

[dhasenan]

Not to mention that their interest would in keeping you subscribing to the service they're currently offering, with a minimum of support calls, and therefore in improving their product's feature set, usability, and stability.

Re:Prediction

[nxtw]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages. If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency. Schools contain your entire academic record. Hell, the big 3 credit agencies have records that are very easy to access.

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

My bank/education/credit records are about me, but the data itself isn't mine. It's generated by someone else as a result of my actions. Any company who keeps this kind of data is regulated and uses these records to conduct business. The information is valuable to them and valuable to me.

On the other hand, my address book, mail box, and other documents are all for my own personal use. The contents of the documents stored on a hosted service aren't so important to those offering the services. If a service provider loses all my information, they will lose a customer. The information itself is valuable only to me.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to thank you for coming up with something new. Most /.ers would have posted one of two things in your situation: the Simpsons joke seen above, or the Calvin and Hobbes joke about the language-weirding accomplished by verbing. But you said something original, and deserve commendation.

Re:Prediction

[Delkster]

And even if you decided to still use the MS base OS, what would prevent third parties from providing software or services to compete with Microsoft's? $10 for an e-mail client would be quite steep -- why not produce a competing service? If a license for a single utility used to cost, say, $20, and you expect your customers to stay at least for a few months, make it $3 a month or whatever seems feasible. It might well be less than $10 anyway, so you'd be outpricing MS.

But then, I wouldn't imagine MS would push the prices that high, for the very reason that few people would be paying that much if there are alternatives. So no, it wouldn't be $90 per month per customer.

Re:Prediction

[PopeRatzo]

If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month...

If I have to be connected to the internet in order to use the MS Office functionality... no thanks.

In fact, I've got MS Office functionality, whether I'm connected or not, for FREE, because I use OpenOffice.org. That's a better price than $10/month, although I'm sure that there are marketers that can convince people that it's better to pay $120/year than $0/year. Maybe if you use pictures of hip young people paying $10/month and dancing in a groovy way to hip music, you might have a lot of twenty-somethings lining up to give you $10/month, even if all you give them is a laugh behind their backs.

Re:Prediction

[Petaris]

It depends on how your actually doing things. If you are "downloading" office to your computer/terminal and running it there and uploading things as you go you might have constant connections for office. If you are simply viewing a remote display and interacting with it then the only thing you are sending to the server is keyboard and mouse data (short of uploading other data like audio or files from a USB drive) and the only thing you are likely downloading is screen data (essentially live streaming video and perhaps audio). So you *could* be fine with more bandwidth down then up. It all depends on how the system is designed. Those Xterms playing xtank weren't really doing anything local other then sending keyboard data and receiving video data, all the processing and work was being done on the Sun server and it was staying there. That is not saying that you wont hit a road block as far as bandwidth is concerned, just saying that having lower upload speeds might not be an issue.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it will be some firmware, whose sole job is to connect to a server farm that houses the compute resources. This means that all you need on your side is a thin client. Of course with Microsoft you will also need your credit card besides you.

This sort of stuff is not new. I am pretty sure there are some of us who can already set up a similar environment using Linux.

Re:Prediction

[roc97007]

> As software ages and settles, more people are satisfied with old software.

Exactly. It's true for operating systems, applications, and hardware. The biggest aids to the growth of the PC were it's weaknesses. OS bugs. Application issues. Hardware inadequacies. You needed the next incremental upgrade because this one doesn't work worth a crap. And the one after that when that one didn't do the job either.

At some point, the hardware gets fast enough for the average bloke, and hardware sales start to slump. Office tools get good enough, and sales fall off. The OS gets good enough, why upgrade? The companies who became giant players on this growth paradigm will need to adopt new business models. And probably be a lot smaller.

Mind you, I can see a continued although reduced need for bleeding edge hardware. There will always be gamers and others who are pushing the envelope. How fast does my video need to render? As fast as I can conveniently afford.

But I am having a more difficult time seeing an overriding need for another version of Windows, and I just can't make myself believe we need yet another version of Office. To most of my peers, Office 2000 still works fine, thank you very much.

It occurred to me the other day that I was writing a document in a version of Office that just had it's eighth birthday, on a machine built in 2003, using an OS from 2001. And I said to myself "Cool. I am finally spending more time using my PC than I am upgrading it." And that is as it should be. We are over the technology hump, and no amount of marketing can call that back.

Even the guaranteed vendor pipeline, where nearly all new PCs run whatever latest OS managed to escape from Redmond, has to eventually slump, for the simple reason that whatever is currently on your desk meets your needs. (Imagine that?)

Given all that, what, exactly, does Microsoft have to sell? Or, more accurately, how the heck do they maintain explosive growth in a mature market? It's got to be preying on someone's mind.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

"How does one have a web-based operating system anyway? If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on? Is it just turtles all the way down?"

The obvious answer would be that it is a VM that runs as an image, just as Lisp and Smalltalk machines used to be their own OS. Yes, such a thing would need a scheduler, a memory manager, etc. but it would not need multiple address spaces or even the ability to run more than one 'process'. So, seen through the now traditional glasses, it look like an OS-less system. With Java/.Net like binaries, the VM could ship with absolutely minimal features, say just some graphical shell and the ability to load stuff from a MS Server.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

can i moderate this -1: silly argument? please?

Re:Prediction

[Chabil Ha']

However, the bank is also covered by federal and state privacy laws that prohibit it from disclosing that information to third parties.

Even if that third party is the government?

Re:Prediction

[mpeskett]

How do you undercut free? Why don't you ask Microsoft that, they've been doing pretty well despite the presence of free alternatives for some time now. God knows how, but if there's anyone who knows how to compete with free and win, its Microsoft.

Re:Prediction

[westlake]

Nah. They just break it up.
.

Why the hell would they want to do that?

Sun has spent almost ten years and two or three hundred million dollars trying to hammer Star Office and OpenOffice.org into a plausible alternative to MS Office.

Microsoft just keeps moving the goal posts.

The mix will vary depending on the target audience - but there will always be one or two pieces that FOSS doesn't have - at least not in so mature and accessible a form.

The student gets OneNote, the church gets Outlook and Publisher.

The geek always underestimates Microsoft's willingness to compete on price. Microsoft sold MS-DOS for $44 in 1980. Two hundred dollars below the price of CP/M 86.

There are by some estimates a billion Windows users on the planet.

Microsoft doesn't need a $1000/yr/user to maintain its current revenues - it only needs $60/yr. $5/mo.

Think about those numbers and ask yourself how many FOSS developers have a reasonable prospect of extracting $5 a month from their mass-market user base - -
which one hopes that - when you past the marque projects like Firefox and Frozen Bubble -
is not an oxymoron.

Re:Prediction

[laddiebuck]

It's funny that Microsoft can make a desktop OS so utterly abominable and resource-intensive that it actually impedes the normal or optimal operation running of programs. That is the whole raison d'etre of an operating system.

And it will probably turn out profitable for them in the end.

Re:Prediction

[lgw]

SSL provides no protection against man-in-the-middle attacks for a user who blithely clicks past certificate errors. I know I do - I get them in enough legitimate interactions that I've stopped looking at the errors.

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

Good point, the concept is the same but the numbers are flexible.

Re:Prediction

[Kaukomieli]

If the replacement rate for a desktop computer is 3 years, and everyone buys for $250 and Windows for $130 - that's less than $400 over 3 years... or just over $10 monthly.

But alas - the replacementrate for a desktopcomputer seldom is only 3 years - and especially office-software sees an even longer time of use.

Re:Prediction

[Snaller]

"If I had a website that offered full MS Office functionality and compatibility for $10/month"

I would run like hell!

Re:Prediction

[zymurgyboy]

With entrenchment.

I can brew better beer than Budweiser and many micro brews myself for example -- and for much less money bottle for bottle -- but it's so much easier to grab a six from the cooler at the local grocery store. And I don't have to explain what a bottle of Bud is to my friends.

Re:Prediction

[localman]

The data I'd be more worried about giving to a company are my home movies... if you catch my drift.

Re:Prediction

[Ex-MislTech]

Judging form the success of the furniture rental business model, I'd say they can charge $24.95+ a month and still be a huge success.

As far as I know there is no place you can get new furniture
for free, with Open Office there is such an animal.

I think more and more ppl will start going Mac, or Linux.

I say MS's days are numbered, their Vista turd has made a bad name
for them and I get paid to replace it with XP at present so
ppl can just get some work done with their legacy apps.

Some older apps are needed by ppl, and Vista will just not
work at this time.

Some semi-modern apps will not work with Vista without a
pricey upgrade on some software.

Ppl do want security, but not at the cost of not being able
to use their old legacy apps, or the cost of replacing all
their apps that are not Vista compatible at an older version.

Re:Prediction

[orielbean]

This is the Verizon Wireless pricing model, where they forcibly disable bluetooth functionality and gps functionality for extra each month.

Re:Prediction

[petermgreen]

and there is no way to have any kinda access to address spaces of other processes
There are however ways to have sections of memory that map into the address space of multiple processes.

As you might know, Virtual memory is completely interlinked with hardware and has its own cost.
It does, but it is highly optimised in modern hardware. There is a cost at context switch time of course but I'm not convinced a context switch between software isolated processes would be that much cheaper.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Do you work for Citrix?

You describe thin client architecture, or hosted computing. I totally agree, this is known, established technology. But from your comment you don't seem to understand these in any amount of detail.

Both Citrix and RDP clients, and moreover X, can transmit primitives to a client when dealing with a hosted application. However, generally "serving up nothing more than a picture" is slower than issuing higher level commands as far as performance is concerned. In simple terms, telling the client "draw dialog box asking 'Do you want to continue | Yes | No'" is less bandwidth than a bitmap of the dialog box.

X, which I am most familiar with, takes this concept very far. You can run an application off a remote computer (X client), which will still use your *local* video card/computer (running the X server) ((yes, client/server notation is kind of reversed in X)) and run 3-d apps over a relatively low bandwidth connection with fluidity. Imagine trying to do that with a compressed bitmap being pushed over the pipe -- it would be a bad slideshow.

RDP does transmit high level instructions, and can be relatively fast. It even has switches for "bitmap caching" of common things, and can compress data too. In my experience deploying the two, RDP is far from bloated and universally faster when compared to ICA, although ICA definitely offers a greater degree of control and customization in the server environment. We do use ICA exclusively, but I think it is primarily for business and historical reasons.

From your last sentence:

>'probably run the whole thing on VM -- most large companies are doing that now for there employees'

I assume you are not mixing up running a virtual machine on a server to host a Windows Citrix Server / running a Virtual Windows session for a remote client and running a Windows Server to host a Citrix application. The first is a Virtual Machine, the second is just a hosted application. You didn't really separate the two concepts.

My corporation runs Windows Server and has Citrix hosted applications for our main five business apps. I detest our setup for controlling access (which was handed to me and I am in the process of changing) which used a Juniper VPN host to allow clients access to specific servers, but that is a separate story.

Re:Prediction

[jonbryce]

We had Wyse terminals at a place I used to work - in the private sector.

They have a very lightweight OS which runs a Citrix client, an RDP client and not much else.

I found that screen latency was very high, around 0.5s. That was on a gigabit lan. Accessing my own computer over a mobile phone network using Microsoft Remote Desktop for Windows or Mac, or RDesktop for Linux gives me much better performance.

Re:Prediction

[jon3k]

Well, presumably, you'd also get a lot more functionality and support from Microsoft. The same advantages that Microsoft has today.

disclaimer: I use open office, I don't need 90% of the shit in microsoft office, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Re:Prediction

[petermgreen]

Even at $24.95/mo, you'd be saving 60 cents a year on OS upgrades by ditching OSX. $25 is the break-even point for you OS X'ers.
Are there really OS-X realeases every 6 months? and do many people really buy all of them at full price?

Re:Prediction

[jon3k]

Wow, this is literally the textbook definition of a Straw Man Argument.

You literally just made up numbers out of thin air and then proclaimed it costs too much.

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

Is there a telecom that doesn't suck?

Re:Prediction

[TheBig1]

$150 every 6mo for an upgrade. That's $300/yr.

Huh?!? Where in the world are you getting your numbers from? OS X release cycles tend to be every 18 months, not 6 months; furthermore, if I choose not to update, everything still works. I have three machines at home, all of which are still running Tiger (released April 2005). Since I see no killer features in Leopard, I will hold off upgrading until at least 10.6, if not later.

Assuming even a conservative 3 years for an upgrade (for my given situation), you are looking at about $3 / month, not the $25 you quoted. Power consumption on my server alone is more than that!

Re:Prediction

[jon3k]

"how many FOSS developers have a reasonable prospect of extracting $5 a month from their mass-market user base"

Uh, who cares? Why does any FOSS developer need to extract any money at all?

Re:Prediction

[jonbryce]

Microsoft already provide an on-line email client for free, and have done for over 10 years now. You can try it out at http://www.hotmail.com/

Re:Prediction

[BronsCon]

Power consumption on my server alone is more than that!

Yet another reason you might be interested in this. I'm sure the thin client they'd sell for this uses a ton less.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

./? Is that a new thing?

Although you accidentally made a point about charging user for using their own file system ;)

Re:Prediction

[greywire]

Also, companies will feel pretty queasy about their highly sensitive data being hosted on some MS server somewhere...

Thats why I am sure they will still be quite happy to sell you a windows based server to host your stuff on.

Re:Prediction

[Kreisler]

They could also do something like Google and sell hardware OS boxes that companies could "subscribe" to. That might at least alleviate some privacy/security fears. Or maybe that would be too much like an Exchange server license. I've yet to meet an Exchange server admin who liked his job and wasn't worried about security.

Re:Prediction

[candude43]

If you bought a house, there is a stunning amount of personal data stored with your realtor and title agency.

If your realtor loses your data, your house won't suddenly vanish from existence. However if you have a business, and you keep your business information (customer, orders, shipping, billing, etc) on a 3rd party data storage service, and that service fails, your business may very well vanish.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

M..m..M

Many mumbling mice are making midnight music in the moonlight. Mighty Nice.

Re:Prediction

[Tumbleweed]

Also, money is fungible.

I don't know what that means, but it sounds dirty, so I'm in favour of it!

Re:Prediction

[Tumbleweed]

How does one have a web-based operating system anyway? If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on? Is it just turtles all the way down?

Wow - that means LOGO was the first web-based operating system!

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

I proclaimed it costs too much?? Sorry, that's probably implied by my word choice and forum (Slashdot comments) but I didn't intend to do that. Random numbers, yes, completely, but if they do end up going with a subscription model, the cost will likely be reasonable. They've got people who make sure their pricing is sane.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

this is obviously many years in the future. highspeed internet access is becoming more available and in the next 10-15 years will be pretty much ubiquitous. there will still be those without, but there will also still be windows 7 and probably windows 8 kicking around.

Re:Prediction

[TheBig1]

I have no problems with thin clients, and in fact am researching different approaches to this. However, it is generally considered counter productive to use a thin client as a server ;-)

Cheers

Re:Prediction

[zuperduperman]

> And quite pointless with people moving to mobile devices instead of desktops.

I actually disagree. When I have a legion of devices from tablets, to desktops, mobile phones etc., many of which get replaced rather frequently, I'd much rather have a single deal with MS that says *I* am licensed to use Office and all I need is to put my key in on any device and it will load whatever version is appropriate over the 'net and I can use it on that device.

Of course, I rather doubt MS will be so kind as to do what I want, but I don't think it's pointless - if it happened it would be better from my point of view.

Re:Prediction

[ch33zm0ng3r]

Right, but currently one could simply disconnect from the network and remove a lot of risk if they wanted AND the computer would still be useful. But really...what good is a computer without the RickRoll?

Re:Prediction

[Allador]

Uh, to pay for a house and food and lifestyle?

Free Software != Free House

Re:Prediction

[DamnStupidElf]

Of course, why not, especially if the cost is high, share it between users? Especially if it will support multiple desktops, won't every household maintain one OS for multiple users?

They can easily restrict concurrent sessions on the server side. Or just limit the number of documents you can have open during a given period of time.

Re:Prediction

[SanityInAnarchy]

I can brew better beer than Budweiser and many micro brews myself for example -- and for much less money bottle for bottle -- but it's so much easier to grab a six from the cooler at the local grocery store.

So, question: Can you brew and distribute better beer, for less money? If so, why isn't someone already doing that?

Re:Prediction

[Matey-O]

Funny. That's about what folks pay for an all-you-can-eat internet connected cellphone plan.

Re:Prediction

[Nethemas the Great]

You obviously don't remember the days of Xterms running over 10baseT from a Sun server. Fully graphical workstations playing xtank and so on remotely on less bandwidth than high speed wireless.

You obviously must be living in the third world because here in the US we really don't have anything resembling the slow speed of a 10baseT.

Of course if you're one of those poor fools who fell for a service "advertising" such slow speeds you'll often find them doing fun things like randomly dropping or delaying packets on you.

Rural American service though is by far the most exceptional. In fact if you're a part of rural America you have two really nice options. A dial-up modem over high quality copper cables capable of letting you zip along at 24.4Kbps (note the small 'b') or a snazzy 1Mbps down 200Kbps up (give or take) satellite rig with ultra-low 700ms - 1500ms latency.

This new OS from Microsoft is definitely ready to take center stage! I can hardly wait to wait.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

depends on the implementation...if it's a fragmented, distributed, encrypted file system, it's probably safer than having it on your home machine, assuming you don't share the indexes and keys necessary to rebuild files. On the other hand would I just store an unencrypted whole file on a remote server if it were important just because a company said I could trust them....hell no.

Re:Prediction

[ozphx]

Free? You mean ad-supported?

The value of ads would plummet if businesses were using google apps as their LOB products. Probably wouldn't keep up with the hosting cost - and then where would they be?

Re:Prediction

[IndigoCarbuncle]

Why a mistrust for Google, but not these other services that people use so regularly? Or is everyone here just universally paranoid? :)

'Cause its're free, and as a result, they're not liable?

Re:Prediction

[omkhar]

A very close parallel has existed for years. Ask your parents about green screen terminals that were hooked up to a mainframe back in the day

Re:Prediction

[snl2587]

if it's a fragmented, distributed, encrypted file system, it's probably safer than having it on your home machine

Depends on the user ;)

But good point. If I was ever forced to use this, I would most certainly encrypt all of the "important" files with GnuPG or the like (preferably something that encrypts large groups of files easily) and keep the key on a flash drive. I would still prefer to keep everything locally, though, especially since I already encrypt things like tax records.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

I like OpenOffice well enough, but people send me MS Office files all the time that just don't import correctly. Additionally, I sometimes have to make changes that involve (bleh) VBA, and I don't feel right sending them back unless I've tested them in the same environment that they are going to use.

So I'm stuck with MS Office on my hard drive. And, once I've got it on my hard drive, why use something else that may or may not be as good?

Besides, an online application might give you benefits that you wouldn't otherwise have - your files available from anywhere, editing from any computer, all your applications available from any terminal, etc. I can see that being worth $10/month.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

Hey, cut me a break :) These were just meant to be off-the-cuff, back of the envelope numbers to show that the numbers could at least work theoretically.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

If you aren't running backups, then you are asking for trouble. This will still be true when MS is hosting your data, though probably less so than today when you are hosting your own data.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

That's my wife's favorite page.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

It worked out well for Paris Hilton!

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

A website with Office functionality and compatibilty... hmm... isn't it called Google Docs? OpenOffice costs $0 a month too...

Re:Prediction

[nko321]

If I could mod in this thread, I'd mod you up. It's just a cell phone with a miniturized version of the Internet, yet people will pay these kinds of numbers for this kind of service. You're absolutely right.

Re:Prediction

[StingRay02]

Brilliant, sir. It may just be the bourbon, tequila and kahlua talking, but I found that wildy entertaining. Cromulently embiggened, indeed!

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

All your bases belongs to LOGO.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

A...web-based...server OS?

Re:Prediction

[candude43]

If you aren't running backups, then you are asking for trouble. This will still be true when MS is hosting your data, though probably less so than today when you are hosting your own data.

So then you agree that you wouldn't trust Google or Microsoft or whoever with the only copy of all your data?

The original premise was that you're storing your data on some 3rd party service somewhere in the cloud. The question was why wouldn't you trust that third party with all your data. The answer is that when that third party goes out of business, so do you. Sucking the data out of the cloud to make a backup an a local hard drive sorta defeats the purpose of putting the data out to the cloud in the first place.

Re:Prediction

[skerit]

Oh no, there's no judging here! I had a similar experience with an "old friend" of mine last year. I always felt awkward for "violating her privacy" but, dammmmnnnn, the things I found out were totally crazy. After that we lived together for another 6 months in complete silence.

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

By getting there first? Yes there's linux now, but MS had DOS out the decade before. People knew the name Microsoft before the Linux kernel was even a single line of code. MS also talk corporate. I recently visited one of my first corporate level clients, and simple they don't care at all (exagerating slightly; it's definitely lower down on their priority list) about which is technically better, they care about what happens if you die, a machine breaks, a supplier drops out; are there any potential non-redundant parts to what you provide that they shouldn't rely on. They wanna see financial reports, know you have a roadmap, know there's at least two people who can do any one job. It's one of those self perpetuating reverse-of-a-catch-22 things; Microsoft are successful because they're successful. So many people will pay them money because they're going to be around for quite some time because so many people will pay them money etc etc. Like money, the only reason everyone wants it is because everyone wants it. (don't say "I don't!" cuz you so know what my point is!) :-)

Oh, and they put their product in schools so when kids grow up, that's what they know how to use, that's what they're comfortable with.

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

OS's are hardly just OS's anymore tho are they? They provide many services to the software and to the users in the form of a common interface. As the number of things done with a computer increases, the benefit of having common interfaces that cover those things increases also. Games don't need to include their own graphics cards drivers anymore as many used to (eg those for voodoo cards), a lot of networking code that used to be in the software is now in the operating system allowing much more software the ability to use it etc etc. They provide millions of ways to ask a user if they're sure, but never if they have any regrets... and loads of useless stuff too!

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

I'm so not old just because I know what you're talking about without having to ask my parents! I'm a whippersnapper! What do you mean "that word's so last century, grandad"?

Re:Prediction

[theurge14]

(Potentially) Less OS on the hard disk could mean lower resource utilization and I'm sure a few enterprising users would find further ways to enhance performance maybe something a kin to tuning current Window's services so as to prevent unnecessary network access?

You mean like... a console?

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

"If I have to be connected to the internet in order to use the MS Office functionality... no thanks"

Not me! I often use Google Docs, sure functionality is pretty low compared to desktop word processors, it's a little clunky, but ability to share documents with just a link is invaluable.

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

"I would run like hell!"

Gentle walking speed is plenty sufficient; the internet has no legs.

(insert Al Gore and 'tubes' jokes here)

Re:Prediction

[debatem1]

There's a bit of a difference between running a remote terminal session and running a grahical desktop in a web browser, but yeah, basically, this appears to be the latest reinvention of the thin client. Having said that, as I mention, there are other alternative interpretations of the limited data provided here: 1) that rather than being a true thin client, Midori merely represents a mechanism for pushing Windows into a subscription model, 2) that the goal is more to exert a greater degree of control over the end users than it is to provide improved performance, or 3) that this is aimed at the embedded and UMPC markets, with an emphasis on prefetching and cache performance rather than processing power.

Re:Prediction

[Delkster]

Did you read the context? The e-mail client (maybe I should have said Outlook clone) was an example based on the GPP of my post. If the e-mail client as an example disturbs you, substitute it with anything else from his list of examples, and adjust numbers accordingly.

Re:Prediction

[Darfeld]

Banks don't care if you're buying porn (or pepsy rather than coca for that matter). Their business is money, not ads.

And anyway, you can always pay sensible stuff in cash if you don't want it to appear in your bank record. (The first reason I see is you don't want your girlfriend/boyfriend/mom to know if they read it.)

So maybe they can data-mine, but they won't bother (except exception) because they have better things to do.

Google business, on the other hand, is ads, so they are interested by your personal stuff. Then it's a matter of balancing bad publicity for selling data and money made with the data. I have no way to know witch weight more on google "morality"(actually more "good reputation")/business balance.

I don't really mind google ads because in exchange I get good free services, and mostly I don't really care if they know I prefer Lucy Liu over Natalie Portman. But if I have something to hind I don't put it on the internet, and I certainly don't want to have to.

Re:Prediction

[oliderid]

How do you undercut free?

Well free may be important for private use, but when you do business and you truly depend on something... For example, there is a an account manager responsible for a big account (like $20 millions/year)...Frankly $10, $30 or $100 per month...WTF. $10 or $0 is almost the same in that case, what differs is the service per see. the SLA (Service Level Agreement). For $0 you can expect nothing.

Re:Prediction

[PopeRatzo]

Yeah, there's not much you can do about Microsoft making it's documents non-standard and non-open format.

I have MS Office at work (where somebody else is willing to pay for it) and OpenOffice at home. I won't spend money on another Microsoft product until they make a product worth buying. And I've already paid for XP Pro when I bought my last computer.

Re:Prediction

[dk.r*nger]

Want Windows? Cool! Just $10 / month!
Word? Excel? Outlook? No prob, just another $10 / month.
Project? Access? PowerPoint? No sweat, just pull out another $20 / month each.
You want SharePoint? Exchange? Easy, just $5 / month per seat!

Never having to worry about virus, spyware, upgrades - basically, never having to call that rude freelancer support guy that most sub-20 employee non-IT companies rely on? Priceless.

If you're an IT literate, or have one on hand, Linux is a very real alternative, but if you don't and consider IT infrastructure like water and electricity, I know plenty of people who'd be happy to pay a few hundred bucks a year for rented software.

OpenOffice is great, but it's just not there yet. Every second spend trying to figure out why you have no idea what the client is talking about (because his Word annotations aren't showing) or nudging things around because the layout is slightly screwed up, or asking for a PDF or at least a non-docx copy, is a nickel in the "Get Microsoft Office" jar.

Re:Prediction

[Tim C]

In the UK, without a warrant, yes.

Re:Prediction

[PFI_Optix]

MS doesn't put their product in schools, not that I've seen. That was Apple's gig in the 80s, and it failed miserably. It took OSX to save the Mac, and Intel to make it mainstream.

Schools buy Microsoft products, just like everyone else. We get them at a discount, but we still pay about $150 for Vista (downgraded to XP as soon as we get it) and Office on every new PC.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

So then you agree that you wouldn't trust Google or Microsoft or whoever with the only copy of all your data?

Well, you just changed the quote! The original statement was that he would never trust a company with all of his data - now you are adding the qualifier of "the only copy".

You'd be a fool to be without backups.

As to defeating the purpose of the cloud, I don't agree. If one of your advantages to cloud computing includes lack of local storage, then no problem... just use a 3rd party backup solution. Personally, I'd like a local copy in case the internet goes down.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

So maybe they can data-mine, but they won't bother (except exception) because they have better things to do.

I suppose that all of those ads that come in your bank statement aren't targeted... but I highly doubt it.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't remember the days of Xterms running over 10baseT from a Sun server. Fully graphical workstations playing xtank and so on remotely on less bandwidth than high speed wireless.

You obviously must be living in the third world because here in the US we really don't have anything resembling the slow speed of a 10baseT.

Of course if you're one of those poor fools who fell for a service "advertising" such slow speeds you'll often find them doing fun things like randomly dropping or delaying packets on you.

Rural American service though is by far the most exceptional. In fact if you're a part of rural America you have two really nice options. A dial-up modem over high quality copper cables capable of letting you zip along at 24.4Kbps (note the small 'b') or a snazzy 1Mbps down 200Kbps up (give or take) satellite rig with ultra-low 700ms - 1500ms latency.

This new OS from Microsoft is definitely ready to take center stage! I can hardly wait to wait.

dont think you though it through.

ur obviously a m$ fanboy. U probably have a picture of bill gates in a dress on ur wall.

no point in even having a conversation with you.

(if microsoft goes down for whatever reason, even for a minute, everyone is without their pc's/data? mmmm, yes that sounds good....)

Re:Prediction

[Darfeld]

The ads in my bank statement are usually for service in my bank so they don't need data-mining for that.

But now that you say that, I come to think the situation must be different for different bank and/or country. (but really, they shouldn't)

Anyway you can always buy stuff by cash, the real problem is the bank don't want to give you cash anymore.

Re:Prediction

[MightyYar]

My bank (Chase) is pretty good about checking/savings statements, but the credit card statements are just chock-full of ads, including stupid cheap watch and jewelry order forms. It's amazing how much garbage is in there.

But even for internal services, I'd wager they use data mining to figure out what to send in the envelopes.

Re:Prediction

[Lodragandraoidh]

At a large corporation, using a remote internet based OS would be out of the question for several reasons:

Sarbanes Oxley -- financial data must be secured from loss and theft - definitely not something you want to go out the internet facing firewall.

24/7 uptime -- given the limitations of the internet, web based applications can not be considered mission-ready unless they are hosted locally (with DR, redundancy, and geographical dispersion - for a large company).

Security -- we can't control what software is loaded and when it is loaded. Key loggers, trojans and viruses could be on the back end, and there is nothing we can do to secure it.

There are probably more things I've forgotten to mention...

Re:Prediction

[CrazedSanity]

... for the very reason that few people would be paying that much if there are alternatives.

• People pay $100-$300 for Microsoft Office, and there have been many FREE alternatives (OpenOffice, etc).
• People pay $100-$500 for Microsoft Windows X, and there are many FREE alternatives (Linux, BSD, etc).
• People pay $(?) for Photoshop, and there are many FREE alternatives (GIMP/GIMPshop works for Windows, too).
• People pay THOUSANDS OF $$$ for Oracle when there are FREE alternatives (PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc).

People will pay because they're scared of change, because they're scared of "little" companies that give out free software without any apparent way of making money... they're just scared. I think you'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't even realize there's another operating system available for their computer (many claim they do, but eventually admit they're lying). Some can't even distinguish programs like Office and Winamp from their OS.

I find the funniest part about people being scared of Linux is that they're worried that the company that makes it isn't going to be around forever... and they say it with the undertone that they're worried they won't have any support. Those very same people are the ones that call me or a friend to fix their problems, like they're avoiding calling Micro$oft like the plague... so even if there weren't support...

(*sigh*) /soapbox

Re:Prediction

[suggsjc]

and for much less money bottle for bottle

Really? You mean to tell me that you can actually produce a superior product in micro quantities to a highly sophisticated and (almost) fully automated continuous brewing process that can also buy their raw resources in bulk quantities?

You might be able to produce a similar product at roughly the same cost that ends up costing almost the same amount to you the consumer, but you are negating both their (and the retailer's) markup as well as ignoring your time as a monetary resource.

FYI, I know exactly what you meant but that particular statement is either wrong or you've got a multi-billion dollar process at your disposal...either way, I'd love to try your brew. Cheers.

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

"MS doesn't put their product in schools, not that I've seen"

School I went to, as I was leaving, got involved in some MS funding project that saw a big injection of Windows machines (where previously using BBC Micros and a bunch of machines running Risc OS)... maybe it doesn't happen much and it's just that it happened very close to home, but it definitely happens (this would've been mid-late 90's)

Re:Prediction

[laddiebuck]

That's fine, but it's still no excuse for why other OS makers can do all that and more, and far more efficiently and securely than Windows, whether 98 or 2000 or XP or Vista.

Re:Prediction

[Fred_A]

That's ok, the server will just run on Linux. Joke aside, it's easy to multiply the number of servers, and the capacity of the systems will grow.

On the other hand, is it useful to access an online desktop from a handheld unit ? If one considers that iPhone or HTC type of terminals are setting the trend, can you actually do something with a "desktop" system from one of those things ? Or is a eeePC the minimum you're expected to be using ? Presumably you're supposed to use some kind of embedded system, since you don't have a desktop system any more...

Not yet convinced.

Re:Prediction

[ConceptJunkie]

We've been coming full circle since forms were originally incorporated into HTML. Basically, the Web for the last 20 years, has more or less been reimplementing X Windows from scratch.

Re:Prediction

[Lord Apathy]

I felt awkward at first till I got to the parts about my boy. Then I stopped giving a damn about her privacy. It was a good thing too. I was going to agree to giving her partial custody and unsupervised visitation rights. I gave them to my lawyer, then he showed them to the judge. I got full custody and a restraining order.

I still find it kind of funny that she stole the wrong damn computer. If they would have bothered to turn it on and read the display it would have requested the host be on for it to boot. I still wonder why they didn't just take both of them. They had the time. They took my swords, bow, 400+ cds, the stereo, and emptied out the freezer.

Re:Prediction

[Delkster]

My point was that there's still price pressure, even on Microsoft. The original grandparent of my post gave, perhaps unintentionally, the idea that a subscription model would give MS the opportunity to rise their prices from high to really high (which something approaching $100 per *month* for the basic software of one workstation would, IMHO, be). That isn't necessarily the case.

Other than that, I'd mod your reply up if that were possible.

Re:Prediction

[jon3k]

I'm not sure if you're being pedantic or you're just ignorant so I'll clarify.

Obviously they need to make money, my point simply being it doesn't have to be derived from their open source projects.

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

There's a huge difference. In the case of the bank, I can sue (or even call the police in some cases) if the bank gives away my data in violation of their privacy policy. In the case of Google, I have no recourse.

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

At the very least, laws give you a form of recourse when the organization you have trusted your data to loses it or gives it away. In fact, the only reason we even know about a lot of these data breaches is because state and federal privacy laws have made it mandatory for companies to report possible breaches of data to the public.

Again, contrast this with Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, or most other e-mail providers. If they suffered a breach that caused loss of security, they're under no obligation at all to tell you, much less take corrective action.

Re:Prediction

[quanticle]

Even if that third party is the government?

Well, at one point, even disclosures to the government (without a warrant or court subpoena, of course) were illegal. However, these days, given the increasing prevalence of things like National Security Letters, who can say?

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

Other OS's could do what Win98 could do, far more efficiently and securely? And I suppose user-friendliey and fully-featurey? And you list 98 as an example? Remebering of course that back pre-Y2K, Apple hadn't even released an operating system with protected memory or full preemptive multitasking, features windows had had for quite some time? Linux installation (both system and application) was hardly as friendly as it can be now or provide much of a common interface to the end user (with command line often required for much system configuration, with a host of applications written using a host of different widget libraries that interoperated at a very hit-or-miss level)...

Don't make out that other operating systems have had everything windows has had for as long as windows has, because different OS's have won different races at different times in different areas of the technology, you're blatantly biased. One of my Linux workloads at the moment keeps hitting temporary deadlocks where multiple cores are sitting around doing next to nothing waiting for internal kernel/FS locks to release and allow the system to continue running, causing massive IO stavation and everything to grind to a halt, a problem I do not experience with Solaris or Windows kernels. Linux is still not even completely rid of its BLK. Windows doesn't have one of those! So why am I using Linux at all? Because it has plenty of other advantages, and I know the developers are working on the locking issues.

So seriously, quit making stuff up.

Re:Prediction

[laddiebuck]

I didn't say user-friendly. Besides, Unix and X11 have been around since the 70s. Granted they weren't as well marketed or idiot-proof, or simple to configure, but I wasn't claiming those. I just said two things -- efficient and secure -- and did not make anything up in claiming that. I think that those things ought to be priorities above desktop-friendliness.

Re:Prediction

[westlake]

Uh, who cares? Why does any FOSS developer need to extract any money at all?
.

The programmer tends to be one dimensional.

He may understand the mechanics of an RPG - on a purely technical level, he may know how to craft the illusions of an open world in a game like GTA.

That does not make him a master of dialog, character, and action,
an actor, an animator, a prop modeler, a background artist, a specialist in visual effects,
a composer, a musician....

The problem becomes one of scale and complexity.

You need to keep the project on track. You need management. Legal advice.

You need to recruit and motivate talent outside your own field. You need to offer the familiar - and mundane - rewards of a weekly paycheck.

Re:Prediction

[Gr8Apes]

So, question: Can you brew and distribute better beer, for less money? If so, why isn't someone already doing that?

Because there's this perceived "quality" associated with cost in the consumer's mind, and free can't possibly be as good as something that costs, say, $4. (I like Brugge and Westmalle Tripples, they are almost $5 per bottle, even in Belgium, their country of origin) If they were to offer their beer for $1/bottle, it's doubtful their clientelle would increase, and might even decrease, due to the perceived "value" of the beer. Sad, but true.

Re:Prediction

[SanityInAnarchy]

Because there's this perceived "quality" associated with cost in the consumer's mind, and free can't possibly be as good as something that costs, say, $4.

Actually, free is something with a low barrier to entry -- so even if it's crap, why wouldn't you try it?

But alright, suppose you're right -- why isn't someone offering them for the same price as the competition? Brand recognition helps a lot, but I don't think the beer analogy applies as well for real vendor lock-in.

Re:Prediction

[baldass_newbie]

A...web-based...server OS?

What OS would they host it on?

Re:Prediction

[darkpixel2k]

If the replacement rate for a desktop computer is 3 years, and everyone buys for $250 and Windows for $130 - that's less than $400 over 3 years... or just over $10 monthly.

You're totally missing the figures.
You buy a computer, you buy Windows XP Pro (which is specifically designed for a Microsoft network)...then you buy CALs even though you already bought a product specifically designed to talk with windows server. Then just after a year, the motherboard fails on the machine and you have to replace it. ...and because Microsoft is so forgiving with their license practices, technically you have to buy Windows XP again and throw away the old copy. Then a few weeks after installing WGA freaks out and says you don't have a legit copy. For some reason your license key won't work to reactivate Windows, and you're left with having to plead to some indian guy to reactivate your box or just buy another copy of Windows XP. The same goes for Office. Sharepoint too--and if you use them together, buy another CAL or two. Maybe standard or advanced, etc...it never ends.

I guess what I'm saying is that even if the web service cost you $100/mo for one computer or user, it'd still be worth it.

Re:Prediction

[Blackhalo]

I think a small brewer is hosed no matter what they do. At least in Texas, if you are not one of the 3 licensed distributors (Coors, Miller or Bud), you are breaking the law. Fact, it is cheaper for a bar to buy beer at the grocery store than from one of these distributors, but illegal to do so , in Texas. Same thing for auto dealerships they have bought off the politicians such that it is against the law for an auto manufacturer to sell direct to a customer. So, you would never be able to go to, say the Ford web page and order a car or case of beer, like you would a Dell computer. These guys are the RIAA in spades.

Re:Prediction

[x2A]

"I think that those things ought to be priorities above desktop-friendliness"

They are... to some people, and in some operating systems... other people have other priorities, and so will choose operating systems designed with similar priorities. I have a different set of priorities for my laptop as I do my NAT/firewall/media machine... so guess what... they run different operating systems.

Also... the X protocol... efficient?!! Sure there are cases where it can be, but there's a bit fat many cases where it's far far from it. How many context switches does it take for an application to just draw a line in X? While modern extensions are finding their way into the codebase to allow more efficient drawing to the screen, that which "has been around since the 70s" by no means fits the description of efficient. But that's not what it was meant for, network transparency was the higher priority there.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Yap, yap, yap..... Now Linux basement dwellers are crying because Microsoft is creating Midori to build THE one and only virtual machines' OS.
What will you find here to criticize?
You are losers and always gonna be losers.
Linux is dead, was dead and always gonna be dead.
Midori forever! Death to the Linux fanboys!

Re:Prediction

[Cutie Pi]

What about Shiner Brewing Co.?

Re:Prediction

[mikael]

A web-based operating system simply gives the BIOS enough functionality to set up the network card and download files using "simple-ftp". This allows you to get rid of the few things that aren't essential - basically the massive hard disk drive required to store every possible device driver that might be needed, system manuals with multi-language support and anti-virus definition files (the latter alone is currently running at 250 Megabytes in size).

When the system is switched on, the BIOS setups the network hardware enough to implement basic file transfers (sftp). This allows the kernel and necessary device drivers to be downloaded. Then the window manager, widget sets, and API DLL files are also downloaded off the network. It's no different from having a server for sharing executables and storing home directories.

Re:Prediction

[zpunk]

AMEN

Re:Prediction

[MindStalker]

Depends upon what you mean by WebOS though. Cloud computing refers to services not really OS level stuff. Meaning your computer will be local, simply that the main direction will be towards using services from the web. They also talk about virtualization, imagine instead of running Google Write, you run a protected virtual machine that runs a remote or locally caches version of Google Write, depending upon if your connected or not?

Re:Prediction

[Gr8Apes]

Thanks to your ever helpful Supreme Court, interstate commerce regulations are the sole province of the feds, and states cannot regulate out of state sales. So feel free to directly order that beer/wine/alcohol/car from an out of state manufacturer. (Those with in-state plants may be subject to state regulation)

Re:Prediction

[Gr8Apes]

The problem is that even the $3/bottle micro and not so micro-brews around here are little better than fermented swamp water.

There are tons of breweries, brew houses, and micro-brews about, even in TX (for a later poster) and most are crap. (Note to future brewers - throwing lots of hops into your beer does not a good recipe make. Brewing excellent beer is a quest for balance. Any idiot can throw in two handfuls of hops)

Now, in a place like TX, there are further artficial barriers to entry, in the form of a forced middleman. The breweries have to sell to a distributor, who can only sell to stores. No direct sales allowed. Yet, somehow, Costco still manages to buy directly from (out of state) manufacturers and sell directly to consumers - yeah Costco!

But, to answer your first question - I've tried a lot of crap. I no longer have an interest in "free" beer, as there's usually a reason it's "free" - mainly, no one in their right mind will pay for it. You know you have a problem when someone takes a sip of a "free" beer, puts it down, and buys a $5 beer and walks off.

Re:Prediction

[Gr8Apes]

Ziegenbock?

Re:Prediction

[Blackhalo]

I had heard but can not find with Google, that Gambrinus Brewing Co. (The owner of the Spoetzel Brewerey where Shiner is Brewed), has a distribution deal with Miller (Owned by SABMiller)

Re:Prediction

[Blackhalo]

http://www.anheuser-busch.com/

TLA conflict

[Bryansix]

There is a Three Letter Acronym conflict with SIP as SIP already means Session Initiation Protocol.

Re:TLA conflict

[Saint Stephen]

It also stands for Software Input Panel on PocketPC.

Re:TLA conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

You may be interested to know about homographs.

A homograph is one of a group of words that share the same spelling but have different meanings.

Many English nouns have not yet been monopolized, and thus are still public domain.

Re:TLA conflict

[gad_zuki!]

TLA is itself in conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLA

Perhaps some kind of fight to the death will resolve this.

Re:TLA conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

It also stands for Shorthand Irritates People.

Re:TLA conflict

[Grimbleton]

It also stands for Suck It, Peon.

Re:TLA conflict

[Red Flayer]

Perhaps some kind of fight to the death will resolve this.

Meh, it's a tie.

Re:TLA conflict

[fintler]

There's a reason for that edit button on top of the Wikipedia article.

Re:TLA conflict

[Applekid]

Perhaps some kind of fight to the death will resolve this.

Meh, it's a tie.

That means everyone dies. :(

Re:TLA conflict

[randyest]

It's also System In Package to us hardware types.

Re:TLA conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

Or System in Package (multiple chips stacked on top of one another)

Re:TLA conflict

[Anonymous Coward]

? Why is making TLA fight TLA relevent? Better googlefight. Though it would probably be more accurate if it were "Session Initiation Protocol" +SIP vs. "Software Isolated Processes" +SIP. But googlefight does not, aparently, like "" or +, just treats them as part of the search terms.

Re:TLA conflict

[Grishnakh]

I thought that was a MCM (Multi-Chip Module).

Windows is dead?

[Dunbal]

Personally I will wait to see what netcraft has to say about that.

Re:Windows is dead?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I will wait to see what netcraft has to say about that.

Netcraft does not confirm it.

In related news, I need a slashdot account.

Thin Client?

[Bryansix]

Remind me again how this differs from a Thin Client?

Re:Thin Client?

[ninjapiratemonkey]

Midori is going to be coded to crash at least once every 24 hours to ease regular Windows users into this "new" technology. Other than that, it's the same.

Re:Thin Client?

[eebra82]

Midori is going to be coded to crash at least once every 24 hours to ease regular Windows users into this "new" technology. Other than that, it's the same.

Oh, shut up already. These jokes are getting old and redundant. My Windows XP has not crashed a single time in months. Windows is no longer associated with BSOD.

As for the thin client claim, yes, this is the exact same thing and the post you replied to is also a bit redundant in its tone. Let's discuss the implications of Microsoft's move instead of bitching about things you don't know.

Re:Thin Client?

[Akaihiryuu]

It doesn't...they are describing a thin client. While I agree that thin clients are nice in a lot of situations, there is no way in hell I would use a thin client as my primary OS. And I will not use a thin client at all (well, outside of a corporate/work environment anyway) unless *I* control the server for it. If I want to put a couple thin client terminals around my house that run off my Linux server, fine. I'm curious how they think a thin client will work as a primary OS anyway. It won't...you have to have SOME OS on the computer. And I really don't think anyone is going to be using PXE over the internet.

Re:Thin Client?

[Hairy Heron]

Windows is no longer associated with BSOD.

Exactly. During the early days of Vista it was the Red Screen of Death.

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

I notice you aren't using Vista? Well I am, and in addition to having to reboot several times a week for updates and software installs, it crashes if I leave it up for more than 2-3 days.

My Windows XP install at home runs fine, but I don't install anything on it other than a couple video games. I would be surprised if it held up under much more than that.

Re:Thin Client?

[mlts]

It seems that every ten years, someone re-invents the thin client.

First it was dumb terminals connected to a mainframe, then to a serial port box so one can connect to a UNIX box.
Then came XStations which used various (direct, indirect, broadcast) forms of XDMCP to find a host to download microcode and run apps from.
Then, it was JavaStations where people talked about fast broadband access to stuff on the ISP's server, and not to worry about all their private documents being stored offsite.

This just seems like more of the same, perhaps an offshoot of cloud computing. It will work for a couple niches here and there, but as a whole, Net based operating systems will fail, as people want to keep their stuff private on their own systems.

Same disadvantages apply. Security of stored files for example -- I trust my external TrueCrypt encrypted drive that uses both a long passphrase and a set of keyfiles a lot more to securely store my Word documents than I do some random ISP's computer.

Re:Thin Client?

[sm62704]

These jokes are getting old and redundant. My Windows XP has not crashed a single time in months

I'd have modded that "funny", it made me laugh! I read it as "Windows only crashes every few months!"

Mine crashed repeatedly, while its Linux partition was rock solid. Now the computer itself is like a rock - the power supply had been going out, causing the crashes. I'm using an old box I dragged out of the basement until I get the energy to replace the power supply.

Re:Thin Client?

[Legion_SB]

The "crash" jokes may be old, but depending on usage patterns, Windows XP still requires a healthy regimen of "reinstall and start fresh" for long-term use.

In my XP usage lately, I have been unamused at how my torrent client starts throwing "insufficient resources" errors, and the entire XP windowing system starts failing to draw windows correctly, even though there's absolutely no lack of free RAM or hard drive space. Looks like it's time for me to dig that XP disk out again...

Re:Thin Client?

[jcr]

My Windows XP has not crashed a single time in months.

Lucky you. (Don't kid yourself, that's luck.)

Windows is no longer associated with BSOD.

Sorry to break it to you, but your experience is a single datum, which doesn't counter decades of suffering by millions of other windows users.

-jcr

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh, shut up already. These jokes are getting old and redundant."

Ah, did someone called your baby UGLY?

Re:Thin Client?

[kaizendojo]

Remind me again how this differs from a Thin Client?

Remind ME how this differs from a Mainframe...it's "central scrutinizer" control all over again.

So I guess we can expect to see the old Apple "Big Brother" commercial dusted off and the "personal computer revolution" started all over again.

Well if history is going to repeat itself and I'm going to go through puberty all over again, I'm getting laid earlier this time.

Re:Thin Client?

[jcr]

This just seems like more of the same,

It is.

There's a reason why we moved to personal computers, and there's a reason why none of the "back to the mainframe" schemes ever caught on.

-jcr

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

I concur with the parent post that

These jokes are getting old and redundant. My Windows XP has not crashed a single time in months. Windows is no longer associa [NO CARRIER]

Re:Thin Client?

[Lumpy]

Actually midori works great. I have hacked on it for over 3 years now.

http://midori.sourceforge.net/

It has been a embedded linux distro that Linus himself helped form for nearly 5 years now...

I see that microsoft has even started stealing other names, or they are fully embracing linux and OSS finally.

Re:Thin Client?

[Amouth]

Mine crashed repeatedly...the power supply had been going out, causing the crashes

and exactly how is this windows fault?

software can only be expected to run as stable as the hardware it is on.

same with alot of things in life.. one can only expect to breath as well as the quality air around them.

Re:Thin Client?

[bigstrat2003]

Yeah, but the almost-universal experience of Win2k and WinXP users does. Sorry, but Windows just doesn't throw up BSODs all the time any more. Sometimes? Yes. Frequently? Hell no.

Re:Thin Client?

[sootman]

To help answer your question, check out this early demo version of web-based Windows here.

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're just trying to be confontational.

Yes Windows XP still has its problems, but it is quite stable if you're not stupid about it.

I keep my work machine up for weeks at a time, hibernating about twice a week during that and I have never had problems. Some things start going a little weird at times, like I recently silently lost my sound device after an up times of 35 days.

I have 3 home machines, one is a windows xp media centre machine hosting 1.5TB of data, movies and music that I share and stream out to the other 2. The "server" stays up for weeks at a time with nary a problem. Heck the mythTV box (standard install and nothing else) that hooks into my TV has memory issues if I leave it up for longer than about 8 hours. Upon normal boot it can play a high-def (720p) movie streamed across my home network just fine. After about 9 hours, it has trouble playing a 320x240 video clip without stuttering. (It has 2GB memory, E6550 core 2 duo). I suppose its entirely possible that I need to tweak some configuraton, but I didn't have to do that for the windows machines.

The other machine (a small windows xp media centre laptop I move around the house) stays on or in and out of hibernation for weeks at a time. It always comes back and chugs along with no problems. I often fall asleep and wake up to it playing along just fine; sometimes it stays playing for a day or two at a time with no problems (the stereo sleep timer is on so I usually forgot to turn the computer off, until I notice it is on).

At work, I administer about 400 windows xp machines. I can go through our help logs over the past 3 and count the number of blue screens on one hand. The number of times windows has screwed up by itself, the user hasn't done something stupid or installed some crap that screwed it up, is about 43 for the last 3 years. And over half of those coincidently happened whenever we got a power bump through the building. Notebooks on docking stations always have trouble with power bumps.

Yes its anecdotal, but Windows has progressed nicely enough that it handles itself well enough.

Of course whether you count viruses and potential security problems directly against Microsoft or not will change that.

Re:Thin Client?

[Tim Browse]

'Stealing names'?

I would have thought that names are information, and information wants to be free.

And how can it be stealing unless you deprive the original owner of the name?

Re:Thin Client?

[Danse]

"Oh, shut up already. These jokes are getting old and redundant."

Ah, did someone called your baby UGLY?

I think someone called his baby buggy.

Re:Thin Client?

[Buelldozer]

Never caught on? How can you say that?

A TON of companies are using either straight TS or TS with Citrix on top. It's a dynamite solution for remote workers, helping to secure data, keeping a standardized environment, and providing usable desktops to low power users.

In the SMB space I see clients with as few as 4 people in the office with some kind of TS server installed because of how well it allows you to work remotely.

"Back to the mainframe" has caught on in a HUGE way.

Re:Thin Client?

[gmb61]

The "crash" jokes may be old, but depending on usage patterns, Windows XP still requires a healthy regimen of "reinstall and start fresh" for long-term use.

Well I've been using the same installation of Windows for 13 years now. I started with a clean install of Windows 95 and it has been upgraded to 98, 98 SE, and then XP. It has had literally hundreds of applications and games installed and uninstalled on it over the years. I've had to repair the OS several times, mostly due to hardware failure-related crashes, but it is still going strong. I will occasionally use a registry cleaner app to de-clutter the registry. Maybe my experience is not typical, but it IS possible if you are willing to maintain the OS properly.

Re:Thin Client?

[divisionbyzero]

Did you even RTFA? A thin client simply displays the output of some centralized application running on a server somewhere. This article is referring to an OS where the applications can run anywhere and be moved anywhere. They are basically portable applications.

Re:Thin Client?

[BlackSnake112]

The "crash" jokes may be old, but depending on usage patterns, Windows XP still requires a healthy regimen of "reinstall and start fresh" for long-term use.

In my XP usage lately, I have been unamused at how my torrent client starts throwing "insufficient resources" errors, and the entire XP windowing system starts failing to draw windows correctly, even though there's absolutely no lack of free RAM or hard drive space. Looks like it's time for me to dig that XP disk out again...

Maybe your torrent client has a few leaks or you downloaded some 'extra' stuff with those torrents.

I have an old win2000 machine running my torrent downloads. It was up for 11 months (when I started it). If the power didn't go out from those storms it would have been up for over a year. I know this is nothing in time. Just stating that if you do set things up correctly you can get good uptime even with a windows box. This machine is my file server and torrent box. Nothing more (it is a PIII 500 with 512 MB ram not a fast/big machine). It is running the torrent program as a non admin user. Not all torrent programs like non admin either on windows.

Everyone's machine setup is different. The hardware I am using is old but very stable. Every OS that I have installed on it has not had hardware related crashes. Driver related, yes. Getting the correct driver fixed the issue. I wish people would check the hardware to make sure the drivers are there before they install the OS. It could save you some headaches in the long run.

Re:Thin Client?

[divisionbyzero]

It seems that every time a new innovation is mentioned on Slashdot someone says it's already been done without even RTFA.

This is about portable application that can be moved between devices. Local storage shouldn't be an issue. It's not necessarily a thin client.

Re:Thin Client?

[drsmithy]

Lucky you. (Don't kid yourself, that's luck.)

I find that the better quality my hardware, the "luckier" I am.

Re:Thin Client?

[Heshler]

It seems that every time a new innovation is mentioned on Slashdot someone says it's already been done without even RTFA.

I know! If all these things "unoriginal" things have already been done before, then: a)why have few people ever seen it b)why would someone be trying to reinvent the wheel.

Re:Thin Client?

[JEB_eWEEK]

Why not store your Word documents on some random ISP's computer in encrypted form?

Re:Thin Client?

[phulegart]

"The "crash" jokes may be old, but depending on usage patterns, for me Windows XP still requires a healthy regimen of "reinstall and start fresh" for long-term use."

There. Fixed that for you.

And I'm sure you don't depend on Norton 360 for protection, nor do you skimp on daily spyware scans... right? Because almost everyone who uses Windows is picking up spyware/malware/grayware/adware to one degree or another (hey, if you aren't then I'm not talking about YOU.. so get your finger off that reply click there) and needs to be regularly cleaning their system for things OTHER than just potential Virus infections.

I mean... I had to Install WinXP when I finally moved away from Win2k... about 2 years ago. Haven't needed a reinstall yet. I'm using XP on my laptop and I've never had to reinstall it.

And I use them both for Gaming, Surfing, Office type apps, movie encoding and editing, graphic work and more... including testing software friends ask me about that they want to know more about.

I can almost see a vision of game companies allowing a mini-OS construction kit online, then a customized download of the game that when burned to a CD/DVD will boot to an OS that detects and uses only your hardware (detected when you purchase the game online, and drivers for just that hardware included in the build). This way, you maximize the resources. NO, it;s not the same as the old DOS games, {sarcasm} unless you mean those old DOS games that each came with their own customized version of DOS that was tailored to your specific hardware.{/sarcasm}

Re:Thin Client?

[sm62704]

It wasn't windows' fault, it was a hardware fault. My point was that Linux is fault-tolerant, where Windows is pretty fragile. It takes a lot to make Linux crash, very little to make Windows crash.

Re:Thin Client?

[Amouth]

that i will agree with - wasn't trying to critize you - sorry if it came out that way..

but the way you said windows crashs all the time and linux is rock solid.. just game off as the typical MS basher you see around here..

and i get tired of reading it.. sorry to win the gold metal in my sig

Re:Thin Client?

[Legion_SB]

Maybe your torrent client has a few leaks or you downloaded some 'extra' stuff with those torrents.

I could buy the leak argument if my available memory wasn't over 2GB (I've got 3.5GB in the machine). And maybe if I ran into disk thrashing when trying to open a new application in this state (nope, it just uses the RAM that is said to be available)

As for the suggestion of a malicious client, the client is uTorrent, as in the basis of the official BitTorrent client. I think you'd be hard pressed to back the idea that uTorrent isn't on the up and up.

But the important point here is that a userspace application, no matter how ill-behaved, should not cripple the window manager. Of course, I fully expect it to be "back to normal" again after that fresh reinstall. :)

Re:Thin Client?

[Bryansix]

If the application moves then where is the data?

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no luck involved per the OS. My XP system was fine until capacitor leak caused random reboots. The XP was fine. The problem was another, known systemic mode of failure. That XP worked was not luck. Knowing how to operate the PC kept it free from common attack vectors.

Re:Thin Client?

[Red Flayer]

Lucky you. (Don't kid yourself, that's luck.)

Or perhaps just usage habits that don't lend to crashes. I'm currently over 3 years without an XP crash on a system that is used daily by two users.

Sure, just another datum...

But if you can't keep an XP system from frequently crashing, I would assume that the issue is PEBKAC or hardware, not with XP.

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. During the early days of Vista it was the Red Screen of Death.

So, Vista crashes in patriotic way. The Party loves Vista, even when it crashes. I'm sure the Father of the Revolution would have accepted Vista in an instant. They are probably installing it on the Jin-class boats as I write this.

Re:Thin Client?

[Grishnakh]

Why not just store them on your own computer, instead of trusting some random ISP to not lose them? Many ISPs can't even keep their connections up, or their DNS servers running reliably. Only an idiot would trust an ISP to store sensitive data (even encrypted); if their server crashes, and they didn't do proper backups, you're screwed.

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

Midori is going to be coded to crash at least once every 24 hours to ease regular Windows users into this "new" technology.

Other than that, it's the same.

So it's more stable than Vista?

Re:Thin Client?

[In hydraulis]

Good for you. Want a lolly?

Mine insta-rebooted about ten times last night. I was trying to install a printer driver, of all things.

The jokes are old, but as relevant as ever.

Re:Thin Client?

[jcr]

Yes Windows XP still has its problems, but it is quite stable if you're not stupid about it.

Maybe, if you never let it connect to the net.

-jcr

Re:Thin Client?

[jcr]

I would assume that the issue is PEBKAC

Sure, if the keyboard and chair you're talking about is in Redmond, WA.

Blaming the user for shoddy work is a time-worn gambit that more and more people aren't willing to accept anymore.

-jcr

Re:Thin Client?

[jcr]

"Back to the mainframe" has caught on in a HUGE way.

Nope. Look at the proportions. How many millions of PCs, and how many thousands of thin clients.

-jcr

Re:Thin Client?

[Dog-Cow]

I recently replaced a computer that was running on the original XP install for years. Only true idiots have to reinstall XP during the life of the computer. And my PC was used for gaming, browsing an all kinds of stuff. I had to clean out spyware once in a while, but otherwise I never had any problems. I only replaced the hardware because it was too old to take mult-core CPUs or PCIe.

To reiterate: only clueless idiots, such as most slashdot posters, need to completely reinstall to maintain a performant system.

Re:Thin Client?

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista is even capable of the BSOD. Every version of Windows still has the same legacy code in it from just about every previous version, so until they do a complete ground-up rewrite it will ALWAYS be associated with BSOD.

Re:Thin Client?

[divisionbyzero]

Obviously there is too little detail to be sure but it could whatever is the local host at the time. Sure it means transferring (potentially a lot of) data between hosts but this thing is being designed for a network infrastructure that is far superior to the current one.

Re:Thin Client?

[benwaggoner]

Remind me again how this differs from a Thin Client?

Processing gets done at the "optimum place" depending on the available mix of CPU power, access to the data, and bandwidth.

For example, with Windows Mobile, if I want to search for a particular message, it'll do the search on the server if I have access. Much faster to just deliver the results than have to pass all the messages down to the phone to do the search!

Flip case, look at YouTube. Why do I have to upload a large file over a slow upload connection so that server-side it gets converted to a small file? For any reasonable scenario, it'd be a lot faster to compress locally and upload the small file, and would save a whole bunch of server-side compute power.

Today, building apps such that different parts can differentially happen on different hardware is really hard. But when it's done, it provides a lot of value.

Re:Thin Client?

[Bryansix]

Because YouTube is going to offer hi-res versions of those videos later. That's why they want the big file.

Re:Thin Client?

[benwaggoner]

I don't think that's what it is; YouTube was server side transcoding long before they had more than one output format.

Even with multiple formats on their server, it'd be faster to transcode locally and upload given the usual user's bandwidth. A typical DV file is 25 Mbps, while all flavors YouTube delivers is probably 2 Mbps at most.

For example, I've got 12/1 updload, download, so uploading a 10 minute DV file would take me 4+ hours.

With a web based OS...

[Thelasko]

what am I going to do with all of that fancy hardware I bought to run Vista?

Re:With a web based OS...

[ivan256]

You'll need it to render the silverlight apps.

Re:With a web based OS...

[Austerity Empowers]

It makes a great ottoman. On a cold day, plug it in, voila, warm feet!

Re:With a web based OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

Midori will eventaually end up as a task running under Windows. They still need Windows to properly run all the DRM, virus scanners, adware blockers and handle the software updates that people expect.

Re:With a web based OS...

[UnknowingFool]

Obviously you haven't seen Solitaire in Midori. This high resolution version allows you to see the giggle of the Queens' assets and whether or not she's cold. The bad side is you can see it for the Kings and Jacks.

Re:With a web based OS...

[gacl]

So i'll be able to run Duke Nukem Forever on Silverlight while on Microsoft's web-based operating system?

Can't i just stick needles in my eyes and get it over with?

Problems

[elemnt14]

I dont see how this would ever work. Wouldn't there be privacy issues with this, seeing it would be web based? Also since it is web-based, if the storage device(s) that are holding the OS crashes, what would happen to those people using it? I think a OS on your base computer is the best way to go, that way you can tweak it to your liking and do whatever the hell you want.

Re:Problems

[Anonymous Coward]

The ideal situation is to have the CPU execute the managed bytecodes nativly essentially handling all the isolation in hardware.

With 64-bit addressing there is a huge huge opportunity for hardware support of packed data structures or hardware based compression.

With native execution and some form of data packing there may actually be the possibility of fast execution, reasonable memory use and a more forgiving managed environment.

Now if only we can do something about exception handling essentially goto statements and allowing assured execution of functions can't fail (for example _everything_ shouldn't have to allocate memory) unless the cpu/northbridge melts it would interest me.

I think there is a basic opportunity for new directions...

More intelligence in the CPU - offload higher level instructions

Generic hardware interfaces - DMA, out of order/scatter gather, queues, interrupt handling..etc. Hardware includes interface specification in its firmware...think bluetooth like hardware profiles.

But the devils in the details and there are reason zillions of hours of time have been spent on todays computers. If you can get rid of all legacy software and hardware concerns... there is a lot of opportunity..given how cheap hardware is and how flexable source code is or can be made to be via an automated process a totally new direction might both be affordable and worth trying.

Huh?

[circlingthesun]

I though Midori was an open source web browser

Re:Huh?

[symbolset]

I though Midori was an open source web browser

It's a linux distro

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

or a flavor of linux

Re:Huh?

[bigstrat2003]

No, she's an anime character!

Re:Huh?

[R2.0]

Porn star http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(porn_star)

Japanese shibari expert and author http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(author)

Re:Huh?

[Reverend528]

or a flavor of linux

Melon-flavored linux.

Re:Huh?

[jason.sweet]

I think the spelling has confused you -
We're discussing M$ Mi-DOH!-ri.

Inside sources say the most compelling feature is that the BSOD has been replaced by that bouncing ball toy you get when uploading files to SkyDrive.

Re:Huh?

[JazzHarper]

No, she's an author. I've got an autographed copy of one of her books.

Re:Huh?

[flyboyfred]

And I thought Midori was a violinist

Re:Huh?

[Eli Gottlieb]

But I wanted strawberries!

Re:Huh?

[DMUTPeregrine]

"Midori" is green in Japanese.

Re:Huh?

[BlueRockGirl]

She's a violinist: http://www.gotomidori.com/

A Link to the Print Version?

[phantomcircuit]

A link to the print version in TFS? This cannot be slashdot... damn DNS must have been poisoned!

Re:A Link to the Print Version?

[Oidhche]

My questions is, what is the damn completely unrelated picture and the dumb banner doing on a PRINT version? Do those people think I piss ink?

Re:A Link to the Print Version?

[commodoresloat]

Wow slashdot's running on a Mac now?

Leverage your ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Useless business speak filter score = through the roof.

Here's hoping....

[Jaysyn]

... that it doesn't suck! Linux still needs competition to keep us on our toes!

Re:Here's hoping....

[Anonymous Coward]

Like Tux, I'm sitting, and smiling... pondering a world where microsoft leaves all the desktops for a strange new world wide web... and then never comes back. Then linux will remain to fill the void: The cold cold operating systemless void.

L

Re:Here's hoping....

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that was the reasons for 1,000+ versions of Linux & BSD (noted as being sold by LinuxCD.org, see right sidebar).

In all honesty, from popular to niche, Linux should well provide it's own competition, but not in the same form as the FUD Factory of Microsoft press releases.

Re:Here's hoping....

[Anonymous Coward]

As has been pointed out above, the only "Midori" that many people are familiar with is the porn actress and, er, "singer".

Sucking was certainly a factor with one of those careers.

Why?

[Darkstorm]

I don't get it, why would I want to trust Microsoft, or anyone, with all my files?

I think I like the current model, I buy a computer and it is mine, I can put whatever I want on it, and I can use it with or without the internet.

I guess when my unreliable comcast cable modem drops offline I guess that means a worthless terminal till it comes back up. This is an improvement....how?

Re:Why?

[PingSpike]

I think your last point is the crux of it. Assuming your average home user even has broadband available, there's a good chance its crap. And with all the talk of limiting broadband bandwidth usage by ISPs instead of expanding it, it doesn't look like its going to get any better any time soon. I fail to see how using the often clunky and unreliable broadband connections that are present in only some of your average American's households as the backbone of a new operating system is going to be much of improvement for consumers.

I know Microsoft is eager to move to a different revenue model, as are a lot of software companies...but quite frankly, they are putting the cart before the horse.

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

I think you are missing the point. The point, in my opinion, is not that every machine must be connected to the internet, but that each machine uses the same interconnected "hypervisor" model. A machine can still run interdependently, but running in a virtual environment that can scale infinitely and be "hot swapped" to other machines and devices. Using web based technologies allows all applications and even the entire OS itself to exist anywhere be it on the machine or on the web itself.

Re:Why?

[langelgjm]

I think your last point is the crux of it. Assuming your average home user even has broadband available, there's a good chance its crap.

You're right. I'm thinking of my parents, who live in a rural area. Dialup is currently their only affordable option. Satellite and long range wireless are theoretically available, but too expensive. If they were to get a new computer that came with a web-based operating system, it would be unusable.

Re:Why?

[Hairy Heron]

Can you translate that to English from buzzword-laden marketing speak, please?

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

And not only that, but each application exists in its own "hypervisor" which allows it to exist independently of the underlying infrastructure. Which minimizes security risk and maximizes portability.

Re:Why?

[alexgieg]

I don't get it, why would I want to trust Microsoft, or anyone, with all my files?

For most common people out there, specially the younger ones, privacy isn't a concern. They favor convenience. Not having to do backups, not having to transfer specific files somewhere else, not having to worry with system maintenance, not having to call a technician to solve configuration issues, having everything you're interested in immediately available anywhere, all of these are too much of a temptation (provided it actually works) for most people to prefer privacy over it.

This of course doesn't apply to enterprises with their own servers and IT department. But home folk would love this.

That put, I must say that, even though I run Linux exclusively at my home computer, I trust my files to Amazon S3 via Jungle Disk as my remote backup service. Everything goes in there encrypted, obviously, but even so the files are still "out there".

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

I'm not sure how to explain that any more clear without getting into the technical aspects of the technology. The term "Hypervisor" itself is not some cheesy MS coined marketing cliche. Its an acutal term used to describe a virtual machine environment, in which a process (os, application, or otherwise) can run. Independently of the underlying hardware or actual operating system.

In other words, everything would run in a layer on top of the os and hardware that can move and scale to any device, machine, or location.

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

The long term goal I think is that the hardware itself becomes an operating system simply supporting an virtually infinite number of hypervisors.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess when my unreliable comcast cable modem drops offline I guess that means a worthless terminal till it comes back up. This is an improvement....how?

You are forced to stop playing Diablo 3, which means you can eat and use the bathroom.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

So it is like writing everything in Java, except with even less access to system calls?

Re:Why?

[DogDude]

I don't get it, why would I want to trust Microsoft, or anyone, with all my files?

I dunno. Maybe because your data is backed up in probably 10 places for you?

Re:Why?

[Danse]

The long term goal I think is that the hardware itself becomes an operating system simply supporting an virtually infinite number of hypervisors.

I haven't really worked with these virtualization technologies, so maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't there only be one hypervisor running on the hardware or within a host operating system? That hypervisor could support many virtual machines. Am I misunderstanding it?

Re:Why?

[wiremind]

>why would I want to trust Microsoft, or anyone, with all my files?

omg, like seriously, paranoia isnt cool, its sad.

normal people (the target market) dont give a shit about security or privacy, they want an appliance that turns on and 'Just Works'.

If a 'normal person' could pay 10 bux a month for a dumb terminal appliance, they would be happy! No Viruses, No Adware, No tech support, no patches or windows updates, no installing software.

Almost everything already IS web based.
Photos: done. (Flicker or Facebook).
Videos: done. (youtube and others)
Email: done. (gmail, hotmail, yahoo)
Instant Messaging: done (Meebo and others)
Web Browsing: done

Gaming can be moved to a console. I'm very happy with the Xbox360.

EVERYONE always talks about office suites.. but seriously, its probably been years since i've written a document in Word.

Even your taxes can already be done online.

>when my unreliable comcast cable modem drops offline I guess that means a worthless terminal till it comes back up

How is that different from now? without an internet connection my home PC is basically useless now.

What are these magical special documents and files you have that are so freaking private???

(this message is directed at EVERYONE who is freaking about about online storage, not just parent)

Kyle

Re:Why?

[wiremind]

With things like Foxmarks, even the browser itself is semi-web based already.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

"and I can use it with or without the internet."

Sure about that?
All my Windows audio software stores it's arrangement data in proprietary formats, and I can't install it without an online call and response for the copy protection.

I never though about this until I had to take a computer on tour, then realised there was no possible way to repair or replace my laptop without having an internet connection.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read EULA of Microsoft Windows? Now, they can read your files, if you connected to the Internet.

Re:Why?

[Kelbear]

Basically, the desktop stays on MS's side and we all just remote desktop into it.

MS would do all the upkeep and hardware upgrades on the desktop on their end, with no change for us who are just using remote desktop.

There's a difference in the implementation, but in practice for the user, that's what would be going on.

Re:Why?

[drsmithy]

In other words, everything would run in a layer on top of the os and hardware that can move and scale to any device, machine, or location.

Is it called Ceylon ?

Re:Why?

[Darkstorm]

I have had fun playing with VMWare, and I even played with Microsoft's VM software as well. Sadly, while they are nice, I wouldn't want to use one as my main os. While I wouldn't classify myself as a gamer, I do play them sometimes. So far the vm's aren't up to playing 3d games.

To port a vm from one machine to another requires a bit of abstraction, and the video suffers for it. This might be something fixable, but so far I'm not impressed with the capabilities of vm's and games.

Ok, I'm sure minesweeper works just fine.

Re:Why?

[Darkstorm]

What files are private? Hmmm, the writing I do, in a word processor. Even if it is technically protected under copywrite I being the one to have written it, still, it is my creation. Will the world end if someone else were to get it without my permission? No, but since on my computer, behind my firewall, in my home, I have a certain level of confidence it is far safer there than on some server of someone else who may or may not have a security hole. If I have one, shame on me, if they have one...I have no control over it.

I may not have top secret files on my computer, but they are mine. Things I create shouldn't be available to some sys admin of some company I may not trust. In today's world of sell everything you can for a buck, my personal info, my web browsing and buying habbits, are all being sold without my permission, or me getting a cut. I'd rather not ad my own work to it as well.

I won't even get into the source code that I write for my own toys. Even if I would give most of it away to whomever wanted it. That is, and should always be a choice I control...not someone else.

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

Not even close. Re-read my previous post.

Re:Why?

[ZenDragon]

Its very much like the JVM yes, except think of it from a much lower level. Its like building the JVM into the hardware itself. And allowing each instance of every application and your "GUI" to run in its own little virtualized environment, communicating with each other via a virtual network within your system.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in Java 5, a friend of mine rewrote the Thread class (it was called threadX). It was exactly the same as Thread (well, every class in the package had been renamed to have an X on the end) except that every line that dealt with the SecurityManagerX had been commented out. We never tested it, but we had a lot of laughs.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

you might own the box and peripherals, but always remember: Microsoft retains ownership of the copy of Windows you use, and you are their plaything, as are your files

Worms will soon find a home @ MICROSOFT

[KozmoKramer]

These new worms will infect the entire MS user base via the subscription servers.

>>>>GAME OVER

Re:Worms will soon find a home @ MICROSOFT

[cp.tar]

To be honest, what kind of backwards compatibility can we expect from Midori?
I know Microsoft is not known for secure software, but we've been bashing Windows for ages. And now they are abandoning Windows.

They are doing not only what we have long known they should do, but they are doing it after milking their users for every penny they could. Now that Vista doesn't seem to be the success they wanted, now that Apple and Linux are on the rise, they are pulling out a weapon they have started working on quite a while ago.

They are big, wealthy, and well prepared. They seem slow and inert, but do not underestimate their arsenal. If they ditch backwards compatibility, they should be perfectly capable of designing something rather lean and stable. And even secure, re-inventing Unix or not.

So while this is funny, there is a lot to think about.

Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[3seas]

Midori Linux from Transmeta - Linus T.

Guess MS will just have to change the name....

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[linuxpyro]

I always thought it was a Web browser.

Re: Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[edalytical]

And a liqueur! Midori.

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[TorKlingberg]

It's Japanese for "green".

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[tm2b]

No, no. They named it after the rope bondage Diva. Sounds appropriate to me.

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really... it's just the codename. Windows 2008 was Longhorn, 95 I think was Chicago. It doesn't get released under that name.

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[HellYeahAutomaton]

I, for one, will not be drinking any Microsoft branded melon liqueur.

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[edalytical]

Hmm. Windows 95's code name was Chicago, the name of the system font on the Macintosh at that time. What next Windows Lucida Grande?

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[edalytical]

I purpose this be a new meme, instead of I don't drink Microsoft Kool-Aid it is now and forever: I don't drink Microsoft Midori.

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[Caption Wierd]

Users will be midorithorians?

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[ChrisCampbell47]

The Gateway AOL Connected Touchpad ( google / images ) ran Midori Linux. I bought one for my Mom and she used it successfully for a few years until we upgraded her to a used iMac. It's in a box in my basement now.

I've also got a 3Com Audrey :)

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[Mex]

Microsoft will just not care, and 5 years down the line they'll sue Linus for copyright infringement on their Midori OS. =)

Re:Midori is a Linux distro from Transmeta

[Anonymous Coward]

"Windows" is English for "clear panels".

This is great news!

[Channard]

I hope this is the first of many operating systems to be named after porn stars.

Re:This is great news!

[Wiarumas]

They named it after a porn star because of its gaping (security) holes and abundance of viruses.

Re:This is great news!

[Arionhawk]

I hope you're being sarcastic, because Midori is just a feminine Japanese name meaning green.

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool! And they can name the next release of Windows "Linda Lovelace", cause, you know, it REALLY sucks!

Re:This is great news!

[Rakshasa Taisab]

Err.... Obviously they named it after the color blue/green.

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm gonna name my distributions off of asian porn stars. Not only will they attract the asian market for linux, but they will attract more slashdotters to ultrasecure asian porn sites. No pop-ups, no mess.

(The author apologizes for the last remark and begs the forgiveness of the slashdot community)

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention backdoor worms...

Re:This is great news!

[Bob-taro]

Err.... Obviously they named it after the color blue/green

I haven't noticed "midori" being used to mean "blue", but I have noticed "aoi" (usually translated "blue") being used to mean "green".

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tentacle porn references begin in 3...2...1

Re:This is great news!

[Vexorian]

Linux Mint has already taken that approach long ago.

Re:This is great news!

[Bobb Sledd]

No that can't be right. Pornstars are usually clean and cum with some form of protection.

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooooor they named it after the famed bondage expert and Pro Dominatrix Midori (http://planetmidori.com/) because it's incredibly restricting and leaves you feeling all tied up in knots?

Re:This is great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

They named it after a porn star because of its gaping (security) holes and abundance of viruses.

And that all things associated with it are really sloppy..

Windows dead? Dobut it.

[loconet]

They can't even manage to get out a decent web based mail service and they want to have a whole OS on the web? Really?

I'm not too familiar with MS's services on the web but is there one that displays MS's competency on a web environment?

Re:Windows dead? Dobut it.

[vinividivici]

I dobut it too, man.
I dobut it too.

Re:Windows dead? Dobut it.

[eulernet]

Now, you understand why they want to buy Yahoo !

Re:Windows dead? Dobut it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever tried Outlook Web Access? It sounds like a likely answer candidate

Re:Windows dead? Dobut it.

[asylumx]

SharePoint.

Not Likely

[Arionhawk]

all this talk about web based applications just sounds like a lot of hype to me. I can't see anyone in a home environment actually willing to put up with that crap, it might work for businesses, but I could never see something like this taking over in the home.

Re:Not Likely

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see anyone in a home environment actually willing to put up with that crap, it might work for businesses

More than unlikely businesses will want to put with that either, privacy being far more important to most business than to most individuals.

I hate people who mod indescriminately

I hate people who spell "indisciminately" incorrectly.

Re:Not Likely

[daveime]

Why not open your mouth a little wider, so you can get the other foot in there ?

indiscRiminately

browser

[kellyb9]

And (of course) it all runs on Internet Explorer! Yeah... this is going to turn out GREAT.

Re:browser

[DrDNA]

And (of course) it all runs on Internet Explorer! Yeah... this is going to turn out GREAT.

Wait a minute. Is that their plan? The courts said they can't force people to use their browser because of monopoly issues. But now they can say it's not a browser, it's an OS!

People will move to Apple.

[jgarra23]

I can't imagine my mom wanting to shell out money over and over to Microsoft a la subscription just to play solitaire, check her email and play flash games, can you envision your parents wanting to do this?

Furthermore, I can't imagine my mom wanting to bother trying to set up wireless in ANY Linux distro, can you envision your grandparents doing so? My mom will likely buy an Apple, my sister & her husband will buy an Apple, everyone I know will by one instead of wanting to put up with another monthly bill. Really. Steve Jobs marketing machine will win this one.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[AceofSpades19]

I can't imagine my mom setting up wireless on any operating system by herself

Re:People will move to Apple.

[linuxpyro]

Hmm, I could see my mom getting a Mac. My dad might get into it too, but I think that both could get used to Ubuntu. Chances are whichever they chose I'd end up helping them get it going, so setting it up wouldn't be an issue. My brother uses both an Ubuntu PC and a Mac and does fine.

I could see this as being a great opportunity for both platforms. Maybe we'll even see more native Linux versions of commercial apps with a bit more competition.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've only recently found out how much of a mac appreciation lesson Vista is... they've broken all the good bits that were left in Windows and failed to fix the other stuff. It's a nightmare that, thankfully, I don't have to get my head around too much...

Re:People will move to Apple.

[jgarra23]

Yes, because it is so f'ing difficult to turn on a computer, click on the little icon, select the wireless network to connect to and then enter the password. So so difficult. I had better tell my computer-phobe in-laws that they need to stop using their Linux laptop which a guy on the internets says is impossible.

That statement is so laden with sarcasm, out of touch with the general public tat either you are just trying to agitate people or are truly clueless to the lack of patience and harsh reality the the user-friendliness of Linux to the worldwide general public is at best laughable. The word impossible was not only absent from my post but is inflammatory on your part but then, I've had better luck getting wireless on Linux to run than convincing zealots on the internet who refuse to see things for what they are rather than some disheveled maniac mathematician's rhetoric.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[sm62704]

I can't imagine my mom wanting to bother trying to set up wireless in ANY Linux distro

I haven't set wireless up at all, but with a wired network I found Windows was a pain in the ass; I had a 98 box and an XP laptop and had a hell of a time getting them to talk to each other. I put Mandrake (this was over five years ago) on both of them, and the Linux partitions were a piece of cake to network; it pretty much did it attomatically on installation.

Windows' vaunted "ease of use" is a myth, as is Linux's complexity. Windows' only claim to superiority to Linux is that it's prettier.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[pshuke]

My grandparents are dead, so I can't really speak for them (insert bad bsd joke here), but I know my mother has no problems clicking on the wifi icon in ubuntu. Really, while wifi can be nuisance in some distributions, ubuntu has come a long way. Even a generic acer laptop which one of my neighbors uses, complete with a (reputedly horrible) broadcom wnic, worked out of the box on. While I'm sure there are still some black spots on the linux wifi map, you have to be pretty unlucky to get something which doesn't work out of the box on said distribution. And if you want to eliminate luck as a factor, you can spend five minutes extra the next time you buy a computer, and make sure you get one with atheros or intel chipsets.

While Apple hardware may be excellent, their macbook line is still overpriced by $3-400 compared to a similarly spec-ed Lenovo. This I believe, is the biggest rationale for not choosing apple. If you can get a similar or better non-Apple computer for less price than an Apple, why would you go with the Apple? Especially if all you do is play solitaire and flash games, which you can do on ubuntu just as well as on osx (easier according to my mother, as the dock confused her).

On a side note, as I'm sure some will suggest installing OSX on non-Apple PC's. When I recently installed 10.5.* on my T60, the wifi (iwl3945) refused to work. I don't think the drivers were ready. On the other hand, ubuntu immediately recognized the card and configured it; so I can only assume that the whole OSX "just works" experience only applies to Apple produced PC's.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[TheSpoom]

Then you have either not used Ubuntu or have had a really weird hardware setup.

Either way, it's not the nightmare you make it out to be; it's actually a lot easier than messing with Vista's wireless in some instances (and I have extensively used both).

Not everyone who uses Linux is a zealot, but you have proved yourself to be an asshole.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[R3d M3rcury]

Suppose someone set it up for her? Like, say, the cable company? They came out and set up her TV, so they'd come out and set this up, too.

So she calls up the cable company and has them install TV and "Computer Service." She pays $9.95 per month for the "Computer Terminal" (She has to buy her own monitor or use her TV or something). Her system is managed by the cable company, she can read her e-mail, surf the web, etc.

Best of all, when something goes wrong, she doesn't have to waste her son's time to come over and fix it.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[rufus t firefly]

I can't imagine my mom wanting to bother trying to set up wireless in ANY Linux distro

I haven't set wireless up at all, but with a wired network I found Windows was a pain in the ass; I had a 98 box and an XP laptop and had a hell of a time getting them to talk to each other. I put Mandrake (this was over five years ago) on both of them, and the Linux partitions were a piece of cake to network; it pretty much did it attomatically on installation.

Windows' vaunted "ease of use" is a myth, as is Linux's complexity. Windows' only claim to superiority to Linux is that it's prettier.

True. I can use iwconfig with the best of them, but NetworkManager is nice, clean, and incredibly simple. Been using it with Ubuntu since it debuted, and haven't wanted to go back to anything else.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[Joe The Dragon]

More like having to pay $20-$30+ for the internet then paying the $9.95 Computer Terminal basic with Computer Terminal expanded and Computer Terminal premier costing even more. With you having to wait for the cable guy to fix it. In a 4+ window just to come out to look at it.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[fmobus]

my main gripe with Network Manager is precisely its simplicity. It doesn't tell me when a connection to some wifi network failed. E.g., I tell it to connect to a given network (clicking its entry in the applet's popup)... it then tries something (it doesn't tell me what it is doing) and fails silently. I just fucking hate this. I have switched to using just iwconfig, and having a couple of scripts for the networks I access the most. Just works.

So far, I haven't seen a perfect wifi network GUI. I'd go for a larger dialog, showing me the available networks in a list and a console-like box telling me what is going on when it attempts to connect.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[sm62704]

Once when I first got XP it borked its own network, replacing a perfectly good ethernet driver with one that didn't work at all!

It had informed me that there were "updates" so I let it do its thing, and went to bed. When I got up the cat had knocked the cablemodem off the desk, and it wouln't get on the internet. I figured the cat had broken the modem. The cable company's tech support said no, the modem was good because he could see the modem from his end, but he couldn't see the computer, so my LAN card was probably bad.

I figured it was probably a cable, but changing cables had no effect. I was all ready to shell out ten bucks for an ethernet card, but reinstalled Windows for an unrelated problem, and lo and behold I was on the internet again - until I updated it.

That was the last time I let it update automatically, I'll tell you.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[Captain DaFt]

"Furthermore, I can't imagine my mom wanting to bother trying to set up wireless in ANY Linux distro, can you envision your grandparents doing so?"

Your mom can't handle point and click? http://picasaweb.google.com/captain.daft/WirelessInternetSetupInPuppyLinux
Some distros are way easier than others.

Re:People will move to Apple.

[Eli Gottlieb]

Since I helped my mom configure her new machine to have an Intel wireless card (Linux compatible natively), my mom's gotten used to Ubuntu Linux and now takes time from her computer work to tell me how awesome it is compared to Windoze.

Not going to happen.

[vinividivici]

I personally can't forsee this happening. Even Microsoft isn't stupid enough to adopt a platform that everyone doesn't have the ability to run. Sure, Vista needed a hardware upgrade on most systems in order to run, but with a web-based OS, a decent high speed connection is needed, which the majority of users don't have access to. Sure, DSL and cable are available to the majority, but that won't be sufficient to provide a good end-user experience. The only viable options for internet that I can see would be fiber optics or a fast T-carrier. In order to kill massive amounts of latency in this application Microsoft would either have to compress everything going to and from their servers. Also, how does MS plan to deal with huge amounts of traffic?

Web-based Apps

[Dripdry]

I don't know if this is going to be similar, but my company recently rolled out some web-based software, replacing programs held locally.

While the concept is nice, the system is terribly slow, takes up an enormous amount of virtual memory (don't ask me why), and is prone to serious fatal errors. This program is supposed to be a lynch pin (sp?) of our business over here. Plus, if the web is out, it's tough to do business. If there are serious server issues sometimes we can't use it. If our internet connection is out, we can't use it.

I'm sure the technology is there to do this, but I still question the inherent flaws in a web-based system. is Windows going from bad to worse?

no need for netcraft confirmations

[alxtoth]

Have you noticed the trend: the Novell deal, Zune failure, pushing water uphill with OOXML, refusal by Yahoo, platinum sponsorship for Apache, faking Mojave as a better Vista? Somewhere in between they make a toy research OS and publish it's source code. Fast forward few years, and they'll be running Linux

Keeping in true Windows tradition

[Tibor the Hun]

Keeping in true Windows tradition it will require a 12 terabit connection to your ISP.

Here's the problem with an online OS...

[Bin_jammin]

You're limiting yourself to people that have internet access. Sure, the internet is available widely these days, but how well with that work with dial-up access? Will it slow the machine down? I think what Microsoft needs to do is come up with a WATER powered OS, after all, everybody lives near water, even in the desert. It's crucial to existence, or perhaps an AIR powered solution? They can tie in with all the major utilities, that way you can get your broadband AND os over powerlines.

Re:Here's the problem with an online OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

The latency on water powered packets is insane, it just wouldn't work. (Its the underground aquafers that kill you)

Re:Here's the problem with an online OS...

[daveime]

Well now 18km2 chunks of the polar ice cap are falling off and melting, I'm sure there'll be plenty of water for everyone soon.

Midori is dead, long live XP

[petes_PoV]

Show me the killer app. Make it worth my while to upgrade from XP and I'll do so. However it's got to be worth the pain of beefing up my hardware, possibly renewing my applications and changing any incompatible components. In short, I'll have to toss all my existing stuff and start from scratch, whatever comes next will have to be pretty dam' good (and I don't mean with more restrictions, spped bumps and changed ways of doing the same things) for it to be worth the hassle.

Win8, codename Midori

[Dracos]

If MS kills Windows as we know it an replaces it with Midori, it'll take at least 5 years to happen, and Midori will still be called Windows.

MS is a slow, lumbering marketing company, not a fast, agile technology company. They'll never walk away from the Windows brand.

Re:Win8, codename Midori

[Ngarrang]

If MS kills Windows as we know it an replaces it with Midori, it'll take at least 5 years to happen, and Midori will still be called Windows.

MS is a slow, lumbering marketing company, not a fast, agile technology company. They'll never walk away from the Windows brand.

But they will call it something fancy, like iWindows, or Windows: Internet Edition.

Re:Win8, codename Midori

[CambodiaSam]

Windows has become Classic Coke. If they try to replace it with New Coke, there will be rioting in the streets.

Also, as long as something still acts as a conveyor belt of piles of money, they won't turn it off.

Information encapsulation

[headkase]

The medium is the message as some wise guy once put it. It makes sense that in the future Information will also encapsulate the functionality to manipulate it and these units will zip around the network on demand. It is a paradigm shift in that monolithic applications with a bagillion features will be obsolete - the units will contain just enough functionality to manipulate them and mash them together. The OS in this role sinks to the level of what the BIOS is today - essential but unnoticed.

Re:Information encapsulation

[hal9000(jr)]

The OS in this role sinks to the level of what the BIOS is today - essential but unnoticed.

This would be an engineering feat worthy of study. A truly thin OS that offered access to hardware and provided th GUI primitives + modular applications that only loaded the necessary components quickly on demand. The key is thin.

Re:Information encapsulation

[Ngarrang]

This would be an engineering feat worthy of study. A truly thin OS that offered access to hardware and provided th GUI primitives + modular applications that only loaded the necessary components quickly on demand. The key is thin.

BeOS? QNX? Windows Embedded? PalmOS?

I think we've seen this before under many other names.

Re:Information encapsulation

[Captain DaFt]

BINGO! http://isd.usc.edu/~karl/Bingo/ Woot, I win!

Re:Information encapsulation

[Fallingcow]

Holy god, BeOS was great.

Nothing to add to the conversation, I just feel compelled to say that every time it's mentioned.

Re:Information encapsulation

[Bj�rn]

The medium is the message as some wise guy once put it.

That wise guy would be Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian philosopher who also coined the term "the global vilage".

"Marshall McLuhan, casual viewin', head buried in the sand." -- Genesis, Broadway Melody Of 1974 - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.

prior art of a sense...

[deft]

And here i thought it was a tasty melon liquer.

Re:prior art of a sense...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was a porn star...

Windows Midori?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just hope nobody goes and googles "Midori" from behind a corporate firewall, that's all I'm sayin'.

Defense against Linux boxes?

[Sockatume]

The Eee and its ilk have shown that people are willing to buy Windowsless boxes, which is an affront to Microsoft's business model. You have to wonder if Midori is a "plan B" to allow them to continue to get revenue from Linux users. Alan, Bob and Clarence may well be willing to pay $10 a month for "Windows access" on their Eees if it lets them use Office, and this way Microsoft have a guaranteed revenue stream whatever OS people actually buy with their machine. Especially if it's agressively marketed and bundled.

Re:Defense against Linux boxes?

[Neil Watson]

If I had to use applications owned by Microsoft, accessing them via a browser agnostic website could be very useful. I could work with a UNIX based computer yet still have access to applications like Visio.

Re:Defense against Linux boxes?

[Marshillboy]

The Eee and its ilk have shown that people are willing to buy Windowsless boxes, which is an affront to Microsoft's business model. You have to wonder if Midori is a "plan B" to allow them to continue to get revenue from Linux users. Alan, Bob and Clarence may well be willing to pay $10 a month for "Windows access" on their Eees if it lets them use Office, and this way Microsoft have a guaranteed revenue stream whatever OS people actually buy with their machine. Especially if it's agressively marketed and bundled.

That may be all well for Alan, Bob and Clarence; but I'm sure ol' Steve has a thing or two to say about that.

Re:Defense against Linux boxes?

[Sockatume]

Alas, in light of the better description of Midori provided below, my speculations are proven incorrect.

Re:Defense against Linux boxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

hang on I thought Alice was busy doing cryptography with bob?

No longer associated with BSOD?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

Oh, shut up already. These jokes are getting old and redundant. My Windows XP has not crashed a single time in months. Windows is no longer associated with BSOD.

Sorry, but Windows will always be associated with BSOD in my mind. I never forgive, and I rarely forget.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[eebra82]

In that case, I suggest that you install one of the first Linux dists and see how much you are willing to forgive and forget. That kind of thinking is just silly as everything sucks at some point, which is why improvements are being made.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Lunix Nutcase]

I'm forced to run Linux .01 you insensitive clod!

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

but. . . you're not Anonymous. . .

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[kabocox]

Sorry, but Windows will always be associated with BSOD in my mind. I never forgive, and I rarely forget.

And Linux will always be associated with a very painful user experience that just isn't worth the amount of effort involved. Those that like pain love Linux. I can say that I've encountered a BSOD in XP but it must have been less than a dozen times spread across 5 years and over 80 computers. To me, Win98 was BSOD. Linux is painfully annoying. Win2000 was the first really solid MS OS. WinXP made Win2000 shiny. We've not tried Vista yet.

Linux and open source has been useful but annoyingly painful.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not have a lot of friends.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[MyLongNickName]

I never forgive, and I rarely forget.

That is a sure way to live a sad, lonely, disgruntled life.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those who hate Microsoft enough to run linux will accept the faults of whatever linux distribution they choose, yet continue flaming Microsoft.

"At least it's not M$"

Hypocrites.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[vux984]

I can say that I've encountered a BSOD in XP but it must have been less than a dozen times spread across 5 years and over 80 computers.

Agreed and in my case it can almost always be invariably traced back to either:
1) bad network drivers, particularly wifi
2) bad video drivers
3) faulty ram
4) faulty hard drive

I've had linux kernel panics about as often, and for generally the same reasons.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as a sado-masochist, my favorite activites after flogging and caning are re-installing Linux and installing Linux for other people.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot, as is everybody who modded you "Insightful". Linux, or any other operating system in history, hasn't (isn't) always been sunshine and happiness, either. Around the time that BSOD issues were still frequent (vastly in the pre-NT kernel days), every other consumer OS had just as many, if not more problems.

It's OK to hate Microsoft, but to hold a grudge about BSOD nearly a decade after it's been an issue, it's time to find new things to gripe about or you should expect to be called an idiot.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Thelasko]

I never forgive, and I rarely forget.

Your last name wouldn't happen to be Hatfield or McCoy, would it?

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can say that I've encountered a BSOD in XP but it must have been less than a dozen times spread across 5 years and over 80 computers.

Agreed and in my case it can almost always be invariably traced back to either:
1) bad network drivers, particularly wifi
2) bad video drivers
3) faulty ram
4) faulty hard drive

I've had linux kernel panics about as often, and for generally the same reasons.

And when Windows crashes for those reasons people still blame Windows not the drivers/hardware.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[silent_artichoke]

The "almost always...invariably" phrase gave me a headache.

My experiences with BSOD are now solely the result of inserting a poorly-made USB drive into a computer in our student lab. This causes crashes in both Windows 2000 and Windows XP on a successful d20 roll against THACO 14.

I think I channeled my AD&D childhood for a moment there.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you didn't spend at least 100$ for the first Linux distributions. Why should we have to pay for beta software? This is the same reason I don't by any bleeding edge electronics. I also wait for several months before purchasing any software. I let the suckers try out new products before I waste my time and money.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

It's Dantes. Edmond Dantes.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

So in this case that makes you... a moron?

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[dedazo]

Clearly you never used RedHat 5.x

Oh wait, that's not the point here, is it. Carry on then.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, after all, there is no other reason to run anything non-Microsoft besides a seething hatred of Microsoft. Obviously.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

You think that's bad? I remember back on the ol' Apple II, you had to put in a 5 1/2" floppy and then hit the Apple-Control-Reset keys and wait a minute for it to boot. And that was every time! I refuse to buy any Apple products for that reason.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[vux984]

The "almost always...invariably" phrase gave me a headache.

My typing keeps up with my thinking... and if i decide to change a phrase midstream I don't always realize the first version has already been written.

(e.g. In my head I'd changed "almost aways" to "invariably", but didn't realize I'd actually typed both.)

-cheers

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[nabsltd]

I ran Windows 2000 and XP on a machine for a couple of years and averaged one BSOD a month.

Considering that it was running on an Intel motherboard that had been recalled due to memory controller errors (one of the 810 series, IIRC), that's not too bad for an OS that supposedly crashes "all the time" on good hardware.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's THAC0, not THACO. Now get off my lawn! :P

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[silent_artichoke]

Hehehe I do the same thing. And as you can see from the AC below, I screwed my post up too.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Plugh]

Quoth Lolith's:
Arioch! Arioch! Hookers and blow for my lord Arioch!

Thanks for your .sig
Now I have a new mantra in life.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... except LINUX IS FREE.. so.. yeah.. not exactly the same bucket of apples there buddy.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yesterday I made the mistake of trusting MS and updating a computer at work. Double mistake, I let windows update chose which updates to install (after all, I trust apt-get at home). After reboot, 640*480 and 8 bits colors. Strange, I though. My least favorite OS out there asks me if I want to let him optimize the display to use the new driver. Yup, it had decided to change my graphic driver (for a geforce 5200). For a new MS-one. Don't know why. I say, hell, why not ? BSOD. Reboot. BSOD.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Tim C]

Well I'll never forget the times Mandrake's X server locked up on me forcing a hardware reset, but I'm still willing to forgive.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[CrazedSanity]

Seriously. The same argument can be made against Windows. Try installing one of the first Windows dists and see how much you are willing to forgive and forget (Windows 3, anyone?); Microsoft hasn't always created great operating systems either. In fact, install the first version of almost anything, and you'll get a big steaming pile of flaming donkey poo.

For the non-gamer, most of the Linux distributions that have been around for as long as XP are very incredibly stable and very user-friendly (with exceptions, of course). The biggest curve to using is the curve itself: suddenly, there's no Microsoft logo, no start button, and the desktop looks... remarkably similar (take a look at KDE).

So let's talk about painful and annoying: connecting a USB hard drive.

Windows (30 secs - 2 minutes):
    1.) wait for the drive to activate
    2.) wait for the OS to find/install the new hardware
    3.) wait for the OS to mount the drive

Linux (10-20 secs):
    1.) wait for the OS to ask you want to do with the new device (or, if you've connected one before & selected to always open in a new window; wait for the window to appear)

Nobody likes a fanboi. Windows has many downfalls, just as Linux does... wait, I just said something bad about both M$ and Linux... am I going to be assassinated now?

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok I will bite. I am not a fanatic Microsoft hater like most here (Steve Jobs rulez forever! Yeah!). I agree that Windows is not so bad, but as someone who has used Linux since end of 1994 I will say that even back then it simply did not crash.

Considering that this was BEFORE Windows 95 and at the time of Windows for Workgroups, Linux has had a long head.

And KDE 4.1 crashes waaaaay more than Windows. It seems that Linux is getting worse as far as the GUI is concerned.

Re:No longer associated with BSOD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you never have installed one of the first Linux distributions. They might have been light on desktop features, but I never saw a BSOD. (Extremely rare to even see a program segfault, for that matter, and these were brand new programs, such as KDE 1.0, under heavy development, in use and tested by only a handful of people.)

Yes, Susan, there is such a thing as well written software.

And a drink

[T-Kir]

A green liqueur called Midori® and is a noted brand, it would be very interesting if MS did ever release an OS under that name but I think their legal team would do their homework on that one.

Re:And a drink

[dch24]

This is a transcript of MS Legal discussing a new name: (ok, it's a joke. laugh.)

SBalmer: Developers! We need a new chair, I mean a new name for the Vista code. It can't start with a V -- people already think virus with that. And it should go to eleven.

BSmith: Why don't we call it Door?

SBalmer: That's a good idea. But a web service should start with "my."

BSmith: Then call it MyDoor.

SBalmer: Web 2.0 starts with an 'i.' How do we add an 'i' to it?

BSmith: MiDoorI?

Assistant Paralegal to BSmith: Sir, that name is already trademarked.

SBalmer: Buy 'em out, boys.

Re:And a drink

[Ashtead]

I don't suspect that there would be a problem with that. Just as it isn't a problem with the Microsoft brand of synthetic pillow material..

Drinks, pillows and operating systems are sufficiently different.

The Linux distro or the web browser are more likely points of conflicts. Something will have to give here.

Re:And a drink

[lifesizeactionfigure]

I remember at the official launch party for Midori Linux at Transmeta in 2001, They served Mellon-Ball Midoris. They were tasty.

Re:And a drink

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like Apple had better trademark the iDoor quick before MS figures out their mistake!

Not Web Based

[ThinkFr33ly]

Midori will *not* be "web based", whatever the hell that means.

Being "internet centric" and connected to "the cloud" is not the same has being web based.

Midori is being designed in such a way that components of the OS communicate with each other in a location independent manner. API calls to a local machine are no different than API calls to a remote machine. These calls will also be "message based" (there are lots of ways to interpret that) and be transactional in nature.

Above these kinds of low level things, there will be a much tighter and more integrated connection to the network. Your profile will roam with you no matter where you are using P2P style communications similar to how Live Mesh works, although supported by core OS components instead of via RSS synchronization.

So if your idea of a "web based" OS is like what I've described above, then yes... it's web based.

But if you're thinking about a subscription-based model where a user must boot their OS "from the web" like a dumb terminal, then you're way off.

Lastly, this thing is at least 7 to 10 years off. Windows 7 will ship sometime next year (or perhaps early in 2010), and Midori isn't even out of MS Research yet. If we saw something like this before Windows 8 / 2015, I'd be damn surprised.

Re:Not Web Based

[madman101]

This is Slashdot. Don't confuse the issue with facts...

Re:Not Web Based

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Mod up. The articles talk more about it being a hypervisor with each app isolated from the others in its own vm and the ability to run or move these vm's on a network (most likely a lan).

Re:Not Web Based

[ZenDragon]

I dont think you're looking at the big picture either. See my comments above about Hypervisor. Actually ill just copy an paste them here so save you the time wading through all the comments...

The point, in my opinion, is not that every machine must be connected to the internet, but that each machine uses the same interconnected "hypervisor" model. A machine can still run interdependently, but running in a virtual environment that can scale infinitely and be "hot swapped" to other machines and devices. Using web based technologies allows all applications and even the entire OS itself to exist anywhere be it on the machine or on the web itself. Each application exists in its own "hypervisor" which allows it to exist independently of the underlying infrastructure. Which minimizes security risk and maximizes portability. The long term goal I think is that the hardware itself becomes an operating system simply supporting an virtually infinite number of hypervisors.

The technologies you speak of, already exist. Remote API calls, web services, SOAP, etc. Midori as I understand it will be the layer in which everything will be run on top of the hypervisor itself. It is essentially detaching the software and its dependencies from the hardware itself.

Re:Not Web Based

[IMightB]

It sounds to me like Plan 9, I've never used it, but from what I've read it sounds very similar.

Re:Not Web Based

[geekoid]

"Being "internet centric" and connected to "the cloud" is not the same has being web based."

Somebody swallowed the web2.0 kool-aid.

Psst, back in the Good ol' days, web-based meant the same thing.

Of course saying something like 'connected to "the cloud"' when no one can even define it is just stupid and leads to confusion amongst customers, and more importantly, the design team.

Re:Not Web Based

[ThinkFr33ly]

I don't think that these things ever were synonymous with being web-based.

The web is the World Wide Web. It's that thing you look at view a web browser. It uses HTTP as its primary protocol. It's connectionless. It's meant primarily as a mechanism for viewing content, although it has been co-opted as an application communications mechanism due to its simplicity, ubiquitousness, and easy of development.

None of these things has anything to do with the design of Midori.

Re:Not Web Based

[Aphoxema]

Ohh, so after copying everything else from other operating systems now they're copying the UNIX server/client model?

Re:Not Web Based

[ThinkFr33ly]

How is this copying the "Unix server/client" model?

Do you even understand the most basic aspects of what they're attempting?

Re:Not Web Based

[ThinkFr33ly]

Thanks for laying that out. I do understand what Microsoft is trying to do with Midori.

I didn't talk about these aspects of the project because I wasn't trying to explain Midori as a whole, just that Slashdot's article summary was stupid.

Re:Not Web Based

[BlackSnake112]

microsoft is going to release the next few version fast. It wants to get to version called windows X. Seeing as how OSX did so well for Apple. Even endnote (citation program) is keeping the X in there name. They are up to endnote X2 now. Maybe microsoft thinks that an 'X' in the release name will be good?

most people here will call that version windows XXX

Re:Not Web Based

[Aphoxema]

I really don't, I just wanted to say something stupid because I wanted to get abused.

Re:Not Web Based

[pohl]

Midori is being designed in such a way that components of the OS communicate with each other in a location independent manner. API calls to a local machine are no different than API calls to a remote machine.

This strikes me as being similar to a design goal shared by Plan 9, and its spiritual descendant Inferno, both of which were based around the 9P protocol.

Re:Not Web Based

[Mipsalawishus]

"Midori is being designed in such a way that components of the OS communicate with each other in a location independent manner. API calls to a local machine are no different than API calls to a remote machine. These calls will also be "message based" (there are lots of ways to interpret that) and be transactional in nature."

Oh, so they took the same principles X is based on, and bastardized it enough to call their own. Gee, that's pretty innovative.

Re:Not Web Based

[supernova_hq]

Windows 7 will ship sometime next year (or perhaps early in 2015)

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Not Web Based

[jonadab]

> Midori is being designed in such a way that components of the OS communicate with each other in a location
> independent manner. API calls to a local machine are no different than API calls to a remote machine.

Sounds a lot like Plan9. It's an old idea now, but it never caught on in a mainstream OS.

It's a theoretically interesting approach, in the sense that a lot can be learned from it, and some of what is learned may potentially be applicable to more mainstream systems. It's good for Microsoft to do this kind of research, because even if the product itself never goes to market, some technologies that come out of the research may make their way into other products.

But hey, maybe if the next Microsoft OS is called Midori, the open-source world can put together a distro called Murasaki.

Proprietary Javascript

[c0d3r]

This probably means that M$ is going to add a bunch of proprietaries to Javascript through IE and start adding language features to make a proprietary platform. Even so more, probably access to the win32 api via javascript. Even more so, probably JITed c#, wait.. wasn't java supposed to do this?

Re:Proprietary Javascript

[Anonymous Coward]

What an odd idea. The MS future strategy for the Web is XAML and C# in the form of Silverlight 2.0. This aligns perfectly with their desktop strategy which is also XAML and C#.

However, javascript can interact with competitive controls like Flash or Java, so MS actually hates it and has let their IE implementation rot with its horrible slowness and memory leaks. Ever wonder why firefox javascript is 10 times faster than IE's? Now you know. MS does not want it to work well.

No, the next strategic will be to sabotage javascript completely in IE so MS oriented web developers are pushed away from javascript/AJAX into their CLR on the browser, with the reward of instant 10 to 100X performance increase. If MS manages to get a significant installed based for silverlight 2.0, the compelling features it offers to MS oriented web developers will be a tremendous incentive to abandon html+javascript completely and migrate to silverlight 2.0.

Re:Proprietary Javascript

[c0d3r]

What was that new keyword that M$ added to java that made it illegal for them to use the language.. oh yeah DELEGATE. I wonder what their first proprietary key word for javascript will be.. wait... they already have jscript.

What's old is new again...

[_Knots]

This is almost exactly the same thing, in spirit at least, as Inferno (http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/), which started in 1995 and has been under continuous development since. Managed kernel, runs on real hardware, uses software isolation between managed threads... oh, and has code flying, for real, right now. :)

Re:What's old is new again...

[daveime]

And after only 13 years ... miraculous.

Perhaps now it's actually flying, they could finish up Duke Nukem Forever ?

Re:What's old is new again...

[Pinky's Brain]

That was a blast from the past, but indeed this is very close. It's also close to RMoX (Raw Metal Occam, yet another language which allows isolation without intervention of the hardware MMU).

This Slashdot discussion would have been more interesting without the whole misguided web angle attached by that clueless Infoworld article.

Re:What's old is new again...

[laddiebuck]

I may be mistaken, but didn't Plan 9 offer all this and more even earlier?

Re:What's old is new again...

[Ex-Cyber]

Inferno started as a fork of Plan 9. The basic concepts, semantics, and protocols were hashed out in Plan 9, and Inferno took it in a vaguely Java-like direction by introducing a new high-level language (Limbo), a bytecode-based runtime model, and the ability to run hosted on another OS or natively on MMU-less hardware.

Re:What's old is new again...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is almost exactly the same thing, in spirit at least, as Inferno (http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/), which started in 1995 and has been under continuous development since. Managed kernel, runs on real hardware, uses software isolation between managed threads... oh, and has code flying, for real, right now. :)

I thaught I smelt "plan9 from outspace".. I knew someone would mention Inferno...

Scratch and sniff...

[fahrbot-bot]

Midori is reported to be an offshoot of Microsoft Research's Singularity OS,...

And will taste like Muskmelon - yummy!

alternate idea

[larry bagina]

OS X and Desktop linux are gaining mindshare and deskshare. Microsoft needs the rethink their role and what an operating system is. I occasionally run windows via virtualbox (in seamless mode) on my Macintosh. Many others use parallels, VMWare, Wine, etc. Much like NeXT transitioned from an operating system to an API/Framework (running under NT, HPUX, Solaris, OpenStep 4,2, etc), I think MS needs to provide a wine-like solution allowing windows applications to run under other operating systems. This would allow them to keep their Win32 API as a majority standard even as their core OS shrinks into irrelevancy.

Vista taught us something

[ClosedEyesSeeing]

As long as people and companies complain about it enough they'll just announce a newer version and allow users to use their legacy OS until it comes out.

1. Release OS that people accept
2. Release OS people hate
3. Re-release old OS for more and charge for downgrade to old OS
4. Profit!

I see one BIG issue besides M$ being useless

[VEGETA_GT]

Se we all know M$ could not code there way out of a paper bag. I will say after a while XP became decent enough to use, but looking at there track record or lack of security and general crap web apps, I don't see this happening or at least being a big hit.

But lets say they do actually pull this thing off and make a stable working system there is one BIG thing they have not figured out yet, Bandwidth CAP. That's right in Canada most ISP's have caps, depending on how much you spend they range form 30 to 95 gigs. In the US some ISP's have them and some like Comcast are looking into some, but at least Comcasts 250gig cap is somewhat resalable. But now not we want a OS online, um how much of the bandwidth cap will that chew up considering we are already dealing with caps while still download movies and music (legal stuff assumed here by general public), toss in updates and anything else and um lets enjoy some overage cap fees. So M$ wants to make a online Os while its becommign more expensive to have a large bandwidth. In Canada each gig over costs so much cash tell a specific point I think 254 then they stop charging and you effectively get unlimited internet but say you have a 40$ account now its a 75$ account not including extra fees like the modem. That's a big extra especially since a OS like this will also end up being a monthly fee which in the end NO ONE LIKES. MAC will get a big boost, Linux will see some and this could even kill the game industry for pc as it will have to move to MAC or Linux and at that point they may just go console, ya sins of solar empire on a console, not my idea of sum

That's my 2 cents plus 5$ more

Don't Kid Yourself

[smackenzie]

To believe for a moment that the "days of Windows is numbered" is idiotic. Consider a few points:

1. The PC continues to be a dominant gaming platform which will never fly with a thin client OS or internet OS.

2. 9 out of 10 (my guess, might be higher) businesses out there will never consider an OS that is entirely dependent on a working internet connection. (And don't counter with "well, what about web services companies?" I mean top to bottom activities in a single company such as accounting, HR, project management, security services, legal, design, PR, etc.)

3. There will be a relative correlation between productivity and your internet speed. Not exciting.

4. Most of us would like to remain reasonably productive in environments where there is no internet connection (planes, trains, parks, beach, over seas, etc.)

5. People seem to forget that the browsers themselves as well as many of the browser features that they depend on (Flash, Movies, ActiveX, PDF, Java) all depend on some version of an OS with a "more than thin client and more than kernal" layer to begin with...

Singularity OS is a smart move (managed code, new process security measures). And you'll see a MAJOR uptick in SaaS and "cloud computing" (whatever the hell that means these days) from Microsoft, but we will not be rid of a client OS from Microsoft in this lifetime.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[Red Flayer]

2. 9 out of 10 (my guess, might be higher) businesses out there will never consider an OS that is entirely dependent on a working internet connection. (And don't counter with "well, what about web services companies?" I mean top to bottom activities in a single company such as accounting, HR, project management, security services, legal, design, PR, etc.)

A lot of those functions already require web access for most large companies. SAP and Oracle are making sure almost all those systems are going web-based... though for smaller companies, it can be hosted on local servers and dodge the internet.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[Brownstar]

> 9 out of 10 (my guess, might be higher) businesses out there will never consider an OS that is entirely dependent on a working internet connection

But many more would be willing to do use it if all they need is a network connection, and the servers are controlled by that specific company. And I'm sure MS is more than willing to sell super expensive server licenses to support those companies.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[peas_n_carrots]

In an enterprise environment, a network-based OS doesn't necessarily need *internet* access, it just needs *network* (LAN) access. The master server can be located within the building. Only a catastrophic failure with a network switch would cause problems with the network OS from running. Of course, this is conjecture about how M$ will model "Midori", and brings to argument the thin client failures over the years.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[SparkleMotion88]

I don't think the Web OS paradigm (ugh!) necessarily requires an internet connection. A company would probably have a web server on their LAN that serves the office-style web applications and saves the data to the users' network shares. Even a home or small office user could conceivably run a web server on the local machine and just save all the data locally. I don't think any of this going to significantly reduce hardware requirements, but there will be significant interoperability benefits.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[jimicus]

In an enterprise environment, a network-based OS doesn't necessarily need *internet* access, it just needs *network* (LAN) access. The master server can be located within the building. Only a catastrophic failure with a network switch would cause problems with the network OS from running. Of course, this is conjecture about how M$ will model "Midori", and brings to argument the thin client failures over the years.

You've obviously never tried administering and troubleshooting VPNs for large numbers of users.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[peas_n_carrots]

Nope, I haven't. I've used VPNs plenty to at least understand their issues from the user side. Anyway, a server on the LAN in this case does not involve VPN, which is intended for secure linkage over internet. If you're doing VPN, you're going to need another solution.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[hemp]

I mean top to bottom activities in a single company such as accounting, HR, project management, security services, legal, design, PR, etc.)

My company already outsources 2 of those to Asia and South America.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[jimicus]

Nope, I haven't. I've used VPNs plenty to at least understand their issues from the user side. Anyway, a server on the LAN in this case does not involve VPN, which is intended for secure linkage over internet. If you're doing VPN, you're going to need another solution.

Yes I know.

But what I was thinking was, if you're doing all the hard work for your business on a server on your LAN, you're likely to want a VPN for staff who aren't always in the office so they can connect to the server.

And such a solution would have two major problems off the top of my head:

• "I can't get on the VPN" translates into "I can therefore do literally nothing useful" (rather than just being a minor annoyance)
• Goodbye to doing anything useful on a flight.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

1. The PC continues to be a dominant gaming platform which will never fly with a thin client OS or internet OS.

Runescape has over 10 million players *precisely* because it works as a 'browser program'. Quake Live will probably have similar success. You are probably right about mid to high end games though.

2. 9 out of 10 (my guess, might be higher) businesses out there will never consider an OS that is entirely dependent on a working internet connection.

You'd hope, but there were quite a few business who were rather upset when google docs went down because they were entirely dependent on it.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is to create a LAN version rather than an internet version. The LAN version would have a server deal to manage most everything and client kernels on all the boxes.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[RoFLKOPTr]

The parent makes fantastic points that I would like to add to.

FTA: "That report paints Midori as an Internet-centric OS, based on the idea of connected systems, that largely eliminates the dependencies between local applications and the hardware they run on that exist with a typical OS today."

I see a major problem with this. The very large majority of software that would require powerful hardware are things that absolutely CAN NOT function over the Internet. Gaming is one example of this. You're telling me that I need to handle the lag between me and the "processing server" AS WELL AS the lag between the "processing server" and the game server? No thanks.

Other examples are things such as Photoshop, video editing and CAD. These kinds of software require a high-speed (as in 6 inches of printed conductivity, not as in 6Mbps of Internets) connection between the monitor and the processing unit.

This new model of Microsoft's might be usable for making spreadsheets and writing documents, but I already have Google for that.

Re:Don't Kid Yourself

[Narcogen]

Dominant gaming platform? Compared to what, OS X? Linux?

That is not saying much. Sales of console titles absolutely dwarf PC gaming. PC gaming drives a certain segment of hardware sales, but if you're saying that the Windows OS cannot be unseated because the gaming industry depends on it, you're dead wrong. The biggest names in PC gaming are already making plenty in the console market, and if Windows wasn't there for them, they'd manage to do fine. The rest are niche players.

There may be plenty of reasons why it may not happen, but that's hardly a good one.

Trivia ...

[Bob-taro]

"Midori" is Japanese for "green". It is also a common female first name.

I don't know how either would apply to an OS, unless it has some connection to this.

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't forget an especially delicious melon liquor.

Re:Trivia ...

[readin]

Midori Ito: I'll never forget when she ran into the cameraman. She was so polite afterwards, bowing and apologizing before continuing her performance. One of the best sports moments ever. I believe she was also the first female to perform the triple-axle.

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then we are definitely in trouble. Green hair is Windows ME's thing.

- ASM

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that MS has been marketing a lot of things with the color green lately. Windows Mobile is one of the most visible examples of this. Many of the skins are green by default.

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

How about 'green', as in "not ready yet"?

Re:Trivia ...

[querist]

You are correct. She was the first female known to land a triple axel (note the spelling) in competition. She was well known for being very polite, kind, and an over-all nice person. (She was also quite cute in her day.)

Re:Trivia ...

[rossdee]

Midori-san was Omi-san's wife in James Clavell's novel Shogun.

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

2k-tan meganekko is moe~!

Re:Trivia ...

[Anonymous Coward]

What's Japanese for "Soylent"?

Midori liquor

[jhines]

I remember being shown an ad in French magazine that showed a couple in hi fashion tux and dress, and
the girl was barfing green puke all over the guys shins and shoes.

I was told the ad text translated to "Midori: the feminine way to vomit".

Midori, huh?

[midnitewolf]

So they go from making a Lemon of an OS to a Melon of an OS?

The acronym brains at MS have been working overtime.

Ugh

[readin]

I've waited so many years to hear that Windows is dead, and when announcement is made we find Windows is supposed to be replaced by something worse. A "web-based operating system"? So I have to be logged into the internet just to use my computer? I have to pay a subscription so I can continue using my computer? Of course maybe "web-based operating system" is not the right term. From reading TFA it sounds like what they're really promoting is a virtual machine environment that all your apps run on rather than having dependencies on the physical machine. That wouldn't be so bad. But please keep the web out of it.

Doom!

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see here. I run Firefox with NoScript and CookieSafeLite, so that no-one can run scripts or drop crumbs on my system without my prior approval. I pay for secure anonymous proxies because my research sometimes leads me into strange corners of the net. I hate (and don't use) Vista because, among other reasons, I trust my own judgement of what to run on my system much more than the OS vendors'.

I despair of ever teaching my family an appropriate mistrust of the net.

And now, we have a Microsoft OS that is likely *designed* to have a big 'ol pipeline to the ISP that can only be "managed" by vendor-approved apps, and will leave a trail of user-identifying info behind it for QOS purposes.

We're all doomed.

once again slashdot readers just don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

good job guys...you people are the prime example of how internet discussion groups are worthless.

Utterly Useless

[HermMunster]

Does anyone really think this is going anywhere? Does anyone even remotely remember Microsoft Bob?

Does anyone understand that people are totally unwilling to give up their security and control to anyone else, especially a convicted monopolist?

Does anyone not realize that there are so many other viable alternatives to switching to such a grossly incompetent idea as this?

Time to move on. Let's get some real newsworthy stories.

Re:Utterly Useless

[Stanislav_J]

Does anyone understand that people are totally unwilling to give up their security and control to anyone else.....

Have you been living in a cave since before 9/11?

Problem with this model: Windows is a hidden cost

[the_rev_matt]

For a significant number of people Windows is a hidden cost in the total price of buying a computer. They aren't used to having to pay for their OS directly and suddenly having to do so may prove to be a psychological barrier to a lot of them. Just something to consider.

Booze Cruise?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just shocked that MS would name their OS after an alcoholic drink.

It strikes me as just a bit funny that they'd actually invite alcoholic comparisons to their developers or operating systems.

Granted, it makes sense...

Sorry, digitally divided....

[Itninja]

...but Internet based means you cannot even play freecell without paying for an ISP. And for the millions (or billions when speaking globally) who couldn't get affordable net access even if they could afford it, well, bummer.

Re:Sorry, digitally divided....

[Lumpy]

Think of it this way....

Nintendo-Wii take it home, plug it in, play online.

Xbox 360 - take it home, plug it in, take 1/2 hour giving it all kinds of personal information to get it to even get online, accept the free silver membership, get blasted on how much cooler you are if you PAY them for a gold membership, etc...

Microsoft depends on milking money out of you. Even their xbox360 is designed as a constant revenue stream while the competition is not.

Just wondering...

[elguillelmo]

Does this mean the days of bullying OEMs are soon to be over?
I doubt MS is going to find an alternative source of revenue in subscriptions: they would have to be outrageously high. Unless they disguise OS cost in such a clever, if evil, way as they do now.
Advertisement as a business model is also in doubt nowadays...
Who are they gonna bully, then?

My Prediction

[Spy der Mann]

With Windows 7 around the corner, it'll be another 2 or 3 additional years at least for Midori to start going mainstream.

By that time, I predict that either GNU/Linux will take over the desktop, or that ReactOS will reach version 1.0 and people will start migrating to it.

Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Making it easier for Homeland Security to read your email, daily.

It will be a great idea turned upside-down

[jfbilodeau]

It's not the first time Microsoft creates a new OS from the ground up, NT being the prime example. However, I think that based on history, I would like to predict two things:

1. To ensure that it doesn't suffer from lack of software, a 'Windows' compatibility layer will be added.
2. To ensure lock-in, the clean and efficient design will be turned upside-down to ensure that only Midori is compatible with Midori.

Thus, at the end of the day, what you have is just another Microsoft product.

Knock Knock. Future calling. Knock knock candygram

[Anonymous Coward]

Here are some other emperical observations to go along with Moore's law (transistor density will double every 18 months, or alternatively prices will halve). Hardrive capacity doubles every 12 months. Network bandwidth doubles every 9 months. Now Moore's law craps out around 2020 where features are atomically fine. Lasers in fiber on the otherhand might keep doubling performance into the 2050s.

So what are we left with as a picture of the future? Clearly the network is where it's at. Everything on demand everywhere. Clearly you'll need a terminal, the network isn't much good without access. But the real power, as ludicriously powerful as 2020 sillicon or gallium arsnide or diamond will be, will be the cloud. It'll have all the centralized power and storage no person could afford to have, but everyone will be able to afford the connection, and it's hard to imagine how at that point they'd be able to saturate the connection. You can only watch so much ultra holo-porn at once.

Yeah, maybe you will buy Apple. But they'll be doing exactly the same thing with a similar tierd pricing model. Probably something like ad supported, subscription, flat per socket fee, site license, etc. Linux. It'll either be run by IBM or be for old people. Woo! FUTURE!

Windows is not dead

[Enderandrew]

Microsoft would be foolish to completely ignore the potential of a "web OS" or desktop cloud computing.

However, Microsoft isn't going to ignore their enterprise customers, many of which don't want all their desktop users to have internet access, nor do they want to necessarily have to pay for extra bandwidth just to have a less secure system.

404

[Dancindan84]

Desktop not found...

The name Midori is in use

[istartedi]

Midori is a Linux distro developed by that all-but-dead CPU company, Transmeta. It seems unlikely MS would have anything to do with this. Either that, or they named the project without realizing it might cause confusion. Since it's just an internal code name, I don't see that as trademark violation (IANAL); but they would certainly have to change it before they release anything.

Re:The name Midori is in use

[Animats]

Transmeta still has a live trademark on it, too. In category "Goods and Services: Computer Operating Systems".

Re:The name Midori is in use

[kallisti5]

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=d21in9.5.6 Midori linux is trademarked by Transmeta as: "G & S: COMPUTER OPERATING SYSTEM SOFTWARE."

OS Based on Whatever They're Smoking

[ks*nut]

I think they've hit on something here. If you can't get an operating system to work properly just revert to smoke and mirrors. At the same time turn the business model that has served you so well on its head. And the brains behind the company is where?

*Not* web based

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Gotta love idiotic rumors. Midori (and Windows 7 as well) both put an emphasis on *enabling* cloud computing, accessing your data anywhere, etc. In neither case is there *any* intent to turn your machine into a dumb terminal or anything like it. Midori+WPF will make for some fairly impressive app remoting, if desired, but don't expect local apps to disappear.

Disclaimer: Former MS Employee, my information is a few months out of date

Get real

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is a "web-based" operating system??? Seriously, if you can't answer that question, then don't throw that term around. Which I'm pretty sure means that in my ideal world, nobody would be allowed to use the term ;-)

WoW

[Anonymous Coward]

So now WoW = World Of Windows?

You've never done IT support for real people.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is your crummy attitude that turns them off from even wanting to try something new.

I can see you, exasperated, sighing, grabbing the mouse in frustration, click click click done then sneering, "SEE?! What was so hard about that?!"

85 on the Bullshit Meter

[sexconker]

"A story from Infoworld is suggesting that the days of Windows are numbered and that Microsoft is preparing a web-based operating system code-named Midori as a successor. Midori is reported to be an offshoot of Microsoft Research's Singularity OS, an all-managed code microkernel OS which leverages a technology called software isolated processes (SIPs) to overcome the traditional inter-thread communications issues of microkernel OSes."

"Infoworld": +10
"days of Windows are numbered": +20
"web-based": +7
"code-named": +4
"microkernel": +4
"leverages" +8
"a technology called ..." + 10
"overcome": +7
"traditional": +5
"communications issues": +10

An 85 on the bullshit meter. Impressive!

Re:85 on the Bullshit Meter

[Six Nines]

You should add some points to that plus-ten for it being from InfoWorld, since they picked it up from sdtimes.com, I believe.

Re:85 on the Bullshit Meter

[sexconker]

The meter only goes so high...

Some confusion about Singularity / Midori

[argent]

With the ability today to run an OS, applications -- and even an entire PC desktop of applications -- in a virtual container using a hypervisor, the need to have the OS and applications installed natively on a PC is becoming less and less, said Brian Madden, an independent technology analyst.

Brian Madden is either talking about something else, or he's confused by references to hypervisors elsewhere. Midori will run under Hypervisors... but as one possible deployment of the OS, not as an essential part of the system. Singularity is more like ".NET" taken to the next level, with the entire OS running without hardware memory protection (let alone hypervisors), so it can run anywhere... even as a module inside another application... without any specific hardware support.

Re:Some confusion about Singularity / Midori

[ZenDragon]

Finally somebody gets it. My previous comments aren't being modded up for some reason. But I'm just glad I'm not the only one here that sees the big picture.

Re:Some confusion about Singularity / Midori

[cryptoluddite]

Singularity is more like ".NET" taken to the next level, with the entire OS running without hardware memory protection (let alone hypervisors), so it can run anywhere... even as a module inside another application... without any specific hardware support.

Unfortunately it's really more like .NET taken to a previous level. With no JIT and no dynamic class loading, it's losing a lot. JavaOS is a better example of a typesafe kernel. Even though it didn't catch on, it was a production OS that had the features of Singularity and more before Microsoft "innovated" them.

Interesting part is not that it's web-based...

[NittanyTuring]

...but that it is based on a new programming model. Many ideas are coming from the programming languages research community. All code will be type-safe and memory-safe. Interaction with the OS and other processes will make much more use of immutable data structures. Concurrency will be pervasive. It will be like one giant Erlang environment.

This is RIAA/MPAA talking

[slashdotlurker]

Once they take the OS online, no prizes for guessing what is next.

Sign me up

[Pincus]

The reduced cost of a computer means I can upgrade more often to a higher performance machine, meaning I can keep up with cutting edge games and software. All the hardware is still my own. I choose if and when to upgrade the video card, the RAM, the hard drive, etc., but now I don't need to go through the hassle of reinstalling all of my favorite programs when I switch from one box another. It also means sharing between my desktop and laptop (and TV set?) is easier than ever.

Re:Problem with this model: Windows is a hidden co

[Forbman]

but not if they can package it along the lines of Xbox Live, which I'm sure is part of the plan.

Midori is a good name for an Indian restaurant ..

[Anonymous Coward]

... prepare to be served a lot of crappyware directly from Mumbai.

Wireless?

[DogDude]

Granted, I'm not in IT any more, but I've never seen anybody using wireless for anything remotely important in a business. I know I certainly won't. I'm paying electricians a good bit of $$ to run Cat 5 in a new location right now. I can't imagine there'd be a lot of Office users who'd use wireless.

Re:Wireless?

[spxero]

Maybe not in your business, but in my industry wireless is the only option. Between forklift operators, runners, and other misc. warehouse crew, there is no way to run cable.

We do have wired phones, wired servers, etc. But the core of the business is warehouse distribution, and in order to track product our warehouse employees need wireless.

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but telematics and the like are low bandwith applications, and many are burst rather than constant data.

Compare that to booting a whole OS like Windows remotely, or an MS Office. Yes it can be done but it's a much bigger amount of date which will probably need bigger batteries etc etc.

Right now I pay $60 a month for 5gb of EVDO data. That's fine for me and my web and email uses. My Macbook is not trying to boot over that connection nor is MS Office for Mac trying to load that way. Thankfully. I'd gobble up my monthly allowance in maybe one or two boots and about as many days.

The premium price for data DOES need to be fixed. It's honestly ridiculous that it cost so much for a wireless connection. Perhaps making wireless the de facto standard will force prices down. I hope so anyway.

Re:Wireless?

[DogDude]

Sure. Wireless makes sense there. Are there lots of forklift operators working on Office documents?

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are these things called electronic forms. Office today is more like an SDK for business process applications.

Wouldn't really work outside of America

[shdowhawk]

I mention America specifically as a generic example that everyone understands for one reason. "Unlimited Internet Bandwidth". This type of a model (even if it is a model where MOST of the OS is on current hardware but then randomly checks the internet for it's main "modular" pieces, vs having it all on the Hard Drive as we current do) cannot work well because other countries actually have to pay for speicifc amounts of bandwidth.

And even now, I've read random articles talking about ISPs (in america) which are considering moving to the "Pay for Bandwidth Tiers" models. WTF is the point of getting an OS that eats up all of your bandwidth just to stay turned on and be running a screen saver? It would need to randomly connect out and update things after all...

Some might argue that this is already being done, and that "caching" would solve the problem ... except that caching would negate the whole purpose of an online-OS (it needs to always have the latest thing to work well). Currently windows ALREADY connects out and randomly checks things and uses bandwidth, but it's NOT downloading entire modules as something like that would require.

Sorry, but if I lived somewhere with Pay-As-You-Go internet (I'm considering moving to Australia) I sure as hell wouldn't pay more money to an ISP on a monthly basis just so that I can use the "latest and greatest" windows.

New, improved Citrix?

[Rob Y.]

What'dya wanna bet that this is really just a new, better platform for deploying apps to a thin client a la Citrix?

Replace the fat, buggy Windows desktop with a new, proprietary thin client and host those traditional Windows apps on a server (not necessarily owned by Microsoft) with per-seat pricing.

Solves a lot of the deployment (and maybe, security) problems with the current MS architecture. And Microsoft still gets the lock-in and per-seat licensing.

Sure, you can kind of do this today, but Citrix doesn't really scale that well. So, if they can build a new platform designed to work this way, could they really make a go of it? Plus, doesn't Citrix get a cut now? Isn't it about time for Microsoft to stab their 'partner' in the back?

I can't log off! I'll lose my OS!

[CaptSaltyJack]

Parent: "Timmy, I'm grounding you from the Internet! You can still use your computer for other stuff, just no more surfing and online games." Timmy: "B-but.. that's impossible!" Parent: "No, it's not! Your grades have dropped, you--" Timmy: "No, I mean it's literally impossible!"

Intenal code name

[Xtifr]

I'm pretty sure "Midori" is an internal code name here, like "Longhorn", so that shouldn't be a problem, as long as it's not an official marketing brand. Not the smartest code name they could have picked, perhaps, since they may have to be a little more careful in how they use the term than they would have otherwise, but not really a problem.

Is Transmeta even around any more? I kind of lost track after Linus left.

Vaporware

[rsmith]

Anyone remember Cairo? ;-)

So...

[PRMan]

They want to repeat the EPIC FAIL that was DCOM?

I mean, yeah, that's just what we want. Machines that run code from other machines as if it's our own machine...

No hacker will EVER exploit that.

And given the long timeframes you've referenced, I'll expect to see it just after the Object-based Filesystem and Duke Nukem Forever...

Re:So...

[ThinkFr33ly]

How as DCOM/COM+ a failure?

Your attitude is pretty silly. Obviously security of connected systems is important.

Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do so

[elrous0]

I guess theoretically you could build a BIOS that automatically connected to the net and downloaded your OS at every bootup. But that would be about the dumbest, most inefficient, and most laughably bandwidth-intensive computer setup I can possibly imagine.

Digg

[heffrey]

When did Slashdot turn into a pale imitation of Digg?

Doeas anyone actually want this?

[Un pobre guey]

No sane person would want to keep all of her data offsite, or risk losing access to essential software at the momentary whim of the vendor.

Get real, folks. Personal computing hardware, their OSs and application software, and the data physically residing on them are not going away. They'll change, and perhaps change a lot, but they are definitely not going away.

This is vendor hype-push on consumers. We aren't exactly clamoring for it.

Re:Doeas anyone actually want this?

[nyctopterus]

The way people went for web-based email suggests that they don't give a shit where their data is stored, as long as they can get it. Not that they really think about it, but their data is probably safer (from accidental loss) with a big service provider than on a local disk they don't back up (yes, most people still don't back up). I think your argument hold true for nerds and certain power-users, but that's not the majority of the market.

Web based = Insecurity

[unity100]

think. we already are having a lot of problems with this level of integration we have between a pc and the internet. browse, surf, use mail, and still helluva amounts of viruses, identity thefts, scams, phishing and whatnot.

we would have larger, more varied and considerably more problems on our hands if we go with a web based os.

Just a bad idea

[mlwmohawk]

First: The internet is an "external" medium. A hard disk and OS is an "internal" medium.

I can use my laptop during a power failure or out in the field without the internet. If the power goes out in my house, I have a generator and can run my TV, refrigerator, or computers. If I have a web-based thin client system, I'll be dead.

Second: Security is horrible. No matter how much an entity promises not to turn over your private information, they can not and will not take that responsibility as seriously as you would. It is best just not to let them have it.

A thin client system will inevitably expose your behaviors and actions to the hosting system and anyone in between that can spy on your packets.

I periodically run wireshark on my router to monitor what is connecting to whom and am sometimes surprised and have to block ports. Can you imagine what Microsoft would phone home with?

Re:Just a bad idea

[nyctopterus]

No matter how much an entity promises not to turn over your private information, they can not and will not take that responsibility as seriously as you would.

Depends who "you" are. Most people just don't care that much, and are pretty insecure in the way they run their computers.

I would hazard a guess that most people would be better off having their data stored on (back up, properly patched) servers, than store it themselves.

Product Puff Piece Promo from Gates-Balmer

[BoRegardless]

Have you actually listed all the things Gates and Balmer promised to deliver?

"Industrial Strength Computing" on the desktop was promised for Window in the early 90s, plus at least a dozen other "revelations" from El-Presedente.

How many have even come close to what was promised (Longhorn, Zune)?

Why does anyone believe ANYTHING that comes out of Balmer's mouth?

I know some want to believe, but I think Microsoft would be better to announce things after they are developed. Whoa, wait, Balmer just announced he is going to emulate Apple by concentrating on the 'whole user experience'.

Sheesh!

yea yea yea...

[quincy451]

Microsoft is trying to put a new spin on the old shit so the messes will pay for it again. It has been working for them so far. Vista has become an obvious backstep like Windows ME, but other than that things have been rolling along for them. The concepts here are nothing new. Reduce the users machine to a teminal and pay them for access to the hosted computers doing the real work. That is a return to the 1960's. But people will buy into this. Now the web was truly something new. It took a while to get there. First some web pages showed up and the white books of webaddresses sold for as much as $60. They where like phone books for the web. But yea back then search was primitive to hopeless and webaddresses where covented like fine wine. Google changed all that and made the web this huge searchable thing, and wiki made condensed versions of that viawable on one page. Both are huge assests to daily life. But what next...making somoenes personal data centralized and even anonomously searchable..is NOT it. The thing with what google did is they only give public search results for public webpages. You don't want people using google to search your data don't post it on the web. But something in mydocuments...being searchable by whom...big brother maybe. No microsoft has huge engineering resources. They need to turn them towards things like virtual reality, and other fields where there remains real work to be done. And that is not just buy someones stuff or reverse engineer it and give it away until the real intovator gives up. I am talking hard research...where the solutions are not buyable because nobody has them. Only downside it is might mean mcirosoft takes a 5 to 10 year slump in earnings while windows goes flat on sales and research becomes the focus....well, wait they will never do that...too much risk too little gain.

Hardware for Vista you say...?

[BertieBaggio]

Simulate a nuclear explosion, a hurricane or the Big Bang. Down to the particle.

Or, get it to work on the Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.

If you need more suggestions, find out what your local University/ies is/are running on their cluster.

Re:EAT SHIT!

[Jaysyn]

It's ok Bill, we still love you too!

Duh

[commodoresloat]

If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on?

emacs, of course.

Is Midori some foreign word for glacial?

[tjstork]

Because that's what it sounds like. You know, all of this hypervisor managed memory ala C# XML centric crap sounds good, except that, we now have a computer capable of executing @2 billion instructions in a second take 2 minutes to load up the web 2.0 equivalent to notepad.

You grandma's can have your cushy memory safety. I'm in favor of speed.

uh...

[Gary W. Longsine]

"Can you imagine a MITM on your OS? Bad guys would no longer need physical access to your box, Only access to your network."

And this is different from the security situation with Windows today in what way?

Re:uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because there's a huge possibility you'd never find out that your data was compromised. If you get pwnt right at the machine, you have a lot more checks, between your machine and over there, you have a lot less resources to watch what is happening.

Re:uh...

[Sabriel]

And this is different from the security situation with Windows today in what way?

The difference is magnitude.

you don't need to wait

[commodoresloat]

There's an easy way to confirm this yourself with empirical data; just count up the number of posts to Usenet that mention Windows....

Wouldn't matter the other way around

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows != Lindows.

MS Still shopped around until they found a court in the world that didn't think the lawsuit stupid.

To take it away from MS, what about Intel's actions against a geological survey company called Gentium (latin for ground): too close to the new Pentium name, so threatened out of business.

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[CopaceticOpus]

Oh yeah? Well, how about if it downloaded your OS at every bootup... twice?

forgetting

[Anonymous Coward]

You are all forgetting that even if you completely cut out (assuming other parts don't fall with it for the time being) ALL of Microsoft's home / personal PC usage, they are still making a BOATLOAD of cash with:

Businesses & volume licenses
Supporting these Businesses
Server Products, Exchange, AD, etc etc etc.
XBOX division.

the list goes on...

Hell for a quick example, a State University I worked for shelled out 100k+ to Microsoft for support and consulting to get their High availability Exchange server set up correctly and all the kinks worked out of it. (last I heard it wasn't going to well...haha)

Yes of course without their hold on the personal / home user businesses would start migrating to *unix OS's, but it would still take time.

Re:Problem with this model: Windows is a hidden co

[Thelasko]

They aren't used to having to pay for their OS directly and suddenly having to do so may prove to be a psychological barrier to a lot of them.

So, your saying that Microsoft will use an ad based business model, like they do for Windows.

Re:all the way down...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Turtles(TM)!

Feeling a little green

[Anonymous Coward]

So i take it from the name this os is going to green screen like the xbox instead of blue screen.

MIDichloORIans

[ChristTrekker]

This revamp of Windows will go over about as well as Lucas' revamping of the Force...

Re:MIDichloORIans

[Cro Magnon]

I dunno. It smells more like Jar-Jar than Jedi to me.

That's not a moon, its an OS....

[coresnake]

ITS A TRAP!!

we already have that

[nguy]

When Java came out, one of the first things people did was to write kernels with isolation provided at the language level. As you can see, it was a complete failure. Even the more modest attempts of running untrusted code inside Java is largely out the window; few applications really rely on Java sandboxing anymore. The only sandboxed code that everybody runs is Javascript.

Java failed at this because it just couldn't give reasonable backwards compatibility with the probably trillions of lines of source code out there. Microsoft isn't going to fare any better. Any system like this needs nearly universal adoption of the underlying virtual machine, and that's not going to happen with either the CLR or the JVM.

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[Metasquares]

But that would be about the dumbest, most inefficient, and most laughably bandwidth-intensive computer setup I can possibly imagine.

This is Microsoft we're talking about.

OS-tans

[ISoldat53]

See "Engineer's Dreams" below.

midori

[alxkit]

correct me if i'm wrong - midori means "green" in japanese. and its also a beer. so this new os is underdeveloped and powered by hops? friggin' sweet.

Whatever this is, it is the wrong way around.

[Qbertino]

Whatever this is, you've got it the wrong way around. It may be just some hype from some obscure MS department or the next big thing. But it won't be the future. Fat Clients and even fatter clients are what's coming. The Netbooks are possible because they can run hideous performance hogs of operating systems on top of now-cheap compareatively super-fast hardware.
The Psion Netbook, just about 10 years old and the Grandpa of all Netbooks, had an uptime of 40 hrs per battery load (with an ancient DSTN display!) and ran Java 1.1 on top of Epoc. It was and still is the superiour concept IMHO.

But now we have 1,6-f*cking Gigahertz Atom CPUs pimped out with a sysClock of somewhere around .5 Gigahertz and upwards of 1 Giga-f*cking-byte of RAM (I remember calling my friend insane for buying a 1 GB HDD!) and upward of 4 Giga-f*ckin'-Bytes of drivespace on chip (!!) with an access time of somewhere around 60 nanoseconds. At the cost something around 400$ a piece. And *only* *now* are the people using it because it runs KDE three-point-whatnot or a current flavor of Windows with system requirements that would've seemed beyond bizar at the time the original Psion Netbook was released.

And you're trying to tell me the future is some thin client internet computer? Forget it. In five years from now we'll have cellpones running Linux with KDE 5 and Cedegar on top of that to play "World of Starcraft" when we're on the go. It's comodity all around coming in on us and if MS thinks it can dick around with that by imposing synthetic barries with online subscription OSes and crappy runtime enviroment concepts, it's not all to unlikely that a horde of asian cost-aware cellphone and netbook manufacturers may teach them a lesson or two with help from the OSS community. I for one would welcome that.

Shared library in a shared VM?

[Anonymous Coward]

At the moment, if you want to create a virtual appliance, you basically need a VM with a mini "OS" containing the kernel and all the userspace tools such as libraries and programs required by the application you are running. See for instance JeOS.

What if you could move such "dependencies" (libraries, files, other programs...) to another VM? A "shared library" in a "shared VM"?

What if you could make such migration "transparent", as in X, so that the actual application does not care whether the "dependencies" are local (within the same VM) or not (other VM on the same machine or even a remote one)?

What if any required modification to the "system" (shared VM) is done (optionally) to the local VM in a COW style?

What if you could adapt legacy apps to this new way of working without recoding everything? By translating on the fly library calls and other resource requests into messages to be dispatched to the appropriate target? And in an efficient manner?

Microsoft has completely lost it

[nguy]

Look at this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163603.aspx

Aggressive interprocedural optimization is possible because Singularity processes are closed--they do not permit code loading after the process starts executing. This is a dramatic change, since dynamic code loading is a popular, but problematic, mechanism for loading plug-ins. Giving plug-ins access to a program's internals presents serious security and reliability problems (did you know that 85 percent of blue screens in Windows are caused by third-party plug-ins and device drivers?). Dynamic loading frustrates program analysis in compilers or defect-detection tools, which can't see all code that might execute. To be safe, the analysis must be conservative, which precludes many optimizations and dulls the accuracy of defect detection.

Java has had full safety and sandboxing, dynamic loading and interprocedural optimization for more than a decade, and it wasn't even the first.

oh yeah, over everyone's dead body they will

[Ancient_Hacker]

Oh yeah, cause web apps are so great.

I think about 800 million has already gone down that particular rat-hole.

Every try using Citrix or simlar for real work? Would you use it if your company did not force you to do so?

Expect another disaster of Vista-like proportions.

Re:oh yeah, over everyone's dead body they will

[po134]

I tried it and citrix is a good replacement if you have the speed. Our only real big issues has been in cities where they alternative ways to connect to the Internet, but when you're close to the central and have decent internet speed (3mbps or more), this isn't a problem.

Just try Microsoft Office 2007 test-drive or Windows Vista test drive. I would personally use office 2007 version if it were integrated into my OS directly, as for windows vista well their server are sometimes overloading but I'm sure the experience from a closed central would be much better.

If someone can kill windows

[Vexorian]

... For sure it isn't MS. Just take a look at the windows XP deal...

The new Apple OS

[lelitsch]

Motoko Kusanagi is going to kick Midori's ass.

Simple Reason This Will Fail

[Anonymous Coward]

Introduction of a notoriously unstable single point of failure: the ISP. If my internet connection is down, or slow, my entire PC is useless? No way. Thanks for playing. Please try again.

Duh

[theskipper]

If you're running your OS inside a web browser, what is the web browser running on?

vi, of course.

seriously....

[EChapple]

Please, there will always be debate over new products, especially Microsoft's, and the arguments are valid for the most part depending upon your perspective. The key point is not whether the product/concept is the best thing ever but rather where can we deploy it responsibly. In this case I can see the value for home and student users as well as smaller businesses that do not require advanced security features. Other than that use of this and really any other product is conditional and subject to the meeting the needs of the user/business.

Remember CICS?

[Anonymous Coward]

The days of 'inteligent terminals' are finnaly back!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CICS

How Far Away Is This?

[director_mr]

Judging from what I read in the article, this new OS model seems at least 10 years away. I anticipate Microsoft offering this in addition to its normal OS's, probably focusing on businesses first who would have less of a problem with a subscription model of software purchasing.

What do other slashdotters think about when we will see something like this?

open source alternative

[Deanalator]

For those that haven't looked into it yet, the JNode project (jnode.org) is attempting something very similar. They use the same basic SIP model where everything runs in its own VM.

It's GPL and built on java instead of .NET

If you are into that sort of thing, I encourage you to go check it out.

My personal theory: xbox will keep microsoft on life support with it's content distribution system, and midori will bring it back as a superpower in the software world.

wow

[darrenkopp]

if you believe this... well, lets just say you and the editor who let this massively speculative story and audaciously ignorant of the money microsoft would lose should probably start writing your obituary so that the darwin awards have something nice to say about you.

Sounds like Hailstorm

[Dan667]

Or whatever that Marketing driven, but poorly architected solution to a non-existent problem that Customers did not want (Passport).

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[maxume]

This will not end well.

It can still be hidden

[phorm]

Think "prepaid licensing/signup code" included with the PC.

I wonder if MS would then allow vendors to preinstall their own crapware in the user's online "cloud" associated with the code?

Really?

[symbolset]

But that would be about the dumbest, most inefficient, and most laughably bandwidth-intensive computer setup I can possibly imagine.

Some people really like it.

It's called PXE boot. It's real popular in some circles. My mythTV boxes all PXE boot from a common system image. It saves custom configuration time and makes certain things easier.

Re:Really?

[elrous0]

Yeah, but a thin client usually connects to an internal network with a 10/100 or gigabit connection, not through some 1.5-6 Mbps connection on the frickin' INTERNET.

Midori liqueur

[CmdrPorno]

They named it after an ingredient in some varieties of Sex on the Beach. Tastes nice with Chambord, vodka, and fruit juice.

Security is less of an issue

[symbolset]

When the purpose of your thin client is to play media content on your TV or laptop or other device from your home media server and let you browse the internet from your couch. Maintaining security of a PXEboot client is also much easier as the core operating system files are read-only. It also solves the problem of downloading and installing things like Firefox on all your boxen, since you update the server once and you're done.

Online Games?

[Inquisitor911]

How will people play online games such as World of Warcraft, if everything is hosted online? Will there be a flash memory storage drive included with the computer?

More shit from the slinger

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you microsoft, I'm opening an egg farm in honor of the microsoft=corruption ballmer lover.

fuck you, microsoft, fuck you.

bitch

Great! Yet another transition

[cecom]

This is exactly what all Windows developers need. After they had to move from one incompatible API to the next greatest one DOS->Win16->Win32(+ODBC)->OLE(+ADO)->DCOM->GDI+->.NET (or whatever), now it is time to abandon all that and start over with yet something completely different. This time it will be perfect, I promise !

Of course the submission itself is full of sensationalist crap. When I read "web based", "Windows replacement" and "virtualization" in the same article, it all becomes clear ... The only thing missing is XML! Hold on ... I've got it ! The micro-kernel will use SOAP for inter-process communication. There you go. Now it is perfect.

It's Cairo all over again.

[leoxx]

This is all just the re-animated remains of Cairo, the "revolutionary" Microsoft OS that was going to leapfrog all competitors and was due at different times during the 90's and then was never actually released. Looks like it has been dug up, renamed and is now being trotted out as the next next big thing AGAIN.

IBM was actually convicted of exactly this kind of behaviour back in the 80's and was forbidden to announce products until they were close to actually being produced. It is a fairly effective way for dominant companies to lock competitors out of the market and has been used since the early part of this century.

Re:It's Cairo all over again.

[ThinkFr33ly]

Except that a large number of the features in Cairo made it into various Microsoft products over the years.

And that's kind of the point of a research product... to come up with ideas, see if they work, and then incorporate them into commercial products where it makes sense.

Anybody noticed...

[forty2botha]

That as of today, YouOS has been pulled by it's developers? Amazing timing, no?

I keep my Windows safely away from the net

[Skapare]

How would I be able to do the same with Midori?

This is the best news evar!!

[zmollusc]

Since it won't be possible for the user to dick around with the OS and apps in order to fix or work around its many flaws, this means that Microsoft must be going to make sure the OS and apps actually work properly before releasing it. Woo!

Or maybe they won't, and M$ will just blame all user problems on ISP QOS.

Black Sites

[rjschwarz]

If true it sounds like Microsoft has given up on defense contractors and government sales.

can their servers host my brain for me, too?

[tonytraductor]

You mean I could use my computer as a thin-client, using software kept on M$ servers remote from me, and entrust all of my applications and documents to their care? and I have the privilege of paying monthly subscription costs, too? Where do I sign up? (not) I don't even like extra toolbars in my browser, let alone any other web-apps. I want my software here, on my machine, where I can secure it, and, modify it to my needs, thanks.

It is japanese

[tknd]

And it means green.

Go here to understand how to read hiragana. If the characters don't appear right you may need a japanese font installed.

But if there is no internet?

[Wingsy]

I need Windows for just one application that only runs on Windows. Used to, I had it running on a PC here but never let it connect to the net, not even for 1 nanosecond. Then I used my MacBook with BootCamp, and today it runs under VMware Fusion on my MacPro. But it never never ever got wired up to the net. So what shall I do years from now (many years most likely) when windows, or whatever it is by then, IS on the net?

Re:But if there is no internet?

[ThomConspicuous]

I would add to this, what about networks that restrict Internet access? Hospital workstations for digital imaging are considered diagnostic devices and considered medical devices. Banks would be another example. The obvious alternative would be to use a *Nix platform and go with software vendors who build such applications, but the point is that Microsoft will lose customers in such scenarios. I doubt they will go the path of making a product that is so prohibited to some of their large business markets.

not modded funny?

[blargfgarg]

well, i saw what you did there

Still uninteroperable

[Anonymous Coward]

What really amazes me about all this is how M$ still has its head so far up its ass, that it makes no effort to verify that users of Firefox can readily access off-site linked content. They use some IE intrinsic JavaScript that sends me back to the page from which I clicked.

The future is near (and will always be)

[po134]

Just yesterday my father, retired CS teacher after 25y, asked me how far away are we from having web OS (It's a topic that has existed since the beginning of the Internet so no real news there!), what a coincidence :)

There are already many web OS, a link(in french, but just clicking the webOS's name souldn't be that hard !) with 65 webOS so far. I personally recommend http://www.mygoya.de

Are network infrastructures ready to support full-time streaming information from the Internet? Probably not at the scale we, as geeks, would like it to be especially with all the bandiwth limitation our ISP seem attracted to. Also, we probably would need to all jump to fiber-optic or at least 100mbits cable (with much better upload speed than we can get today) and that should to the trick to anything but videogames or other applications where 100ms is way too long. I can really imagine myself booting on a mini-os like XpressGate wich would be used to run games and such and for anything else there would be my WebOs available from anywhere in the world.

Is this the future ? Probably yes, at least part of it. e.g. At the department of fisheries & oceans canada where I worked they are moving everything away on their "virtual desktop" wich is acessible across canada (but still require a physical OS to connect to the distant one, but that problem could be solve with quick-bootable-os like asus XpressGate), onboard any coastguard ship or chopper wich will make everybody's life easier.

I would really like to see a prototype of some sort at next-year (or the following at least) microsoft's tech fest

You won't take my pointers ...

[Pinky's Brain]

Unless you rip them from my cold dead hands!

Seriously, something like this makes a lot of sense for fine grain parallelism with many interacting of processes on a processor with a brain dead MMU (there are practical designs for MMUs which can support lots of individually protected process spaces). In the end though for performance sensitive code I'd still rather have a real language, safety be damned.

Safe is slow.

Midori is a porn star

[Cannelloni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Evette_Watley

Re:Midori is a porn star

[Beer Drunk]

Nah! Midori was that cute little girl that used to work at the anime store.

Re:Midori is a porn star

[Cannelloni]

Jup, but now she's turned 18.

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[Eli Gottlieb]

Not sure why you would want a BIOS that boots into protected mode for you. The whole point of a BIOS nowadays is that it contains real-mode drivers for certain hardware, thus granting the user (and any operating system that allows V86 mode) access to a minimum level of functionality.

Actually, AFAIK a BIOS is completely useless on non-x86 systems, but that's another story.

The network is the computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is dead. Gee who told us that years ago?

I'm still waiting.

Awesome ... hope they really find themselves

[sam_vilain]

Doesn't this just sound like one of those Navel-gazing projects that programmers get into that take up all their time? You know, like Yegge's 'teenager' project. If so, isn't it great that MicroSoft are betting on these teenage ideas? They're sure to fall flat on their face, and then they'll have no choice left but to switch to basing their products on something stable like BSD or Linux :-)

Ahh Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot: You will never find a more wretched hive of Microsoft hatred and mockery. We must be cautious.

Jay

[jaykali]

I see all these posts ab having your own data, could you not run a web based client but still store date on your personal hard drive? I would think so. I realize this is different than how web-based apps work as they store your data in a server database but this new kind of web-based operating system would probably be a new paradigm where you could have data stored remotely of course but probably also store data locally. And of course the apps and OS are going to have to be smart enough to work offline. Microsoft already has some technically for things like live excel spreadsheets where it syncs itself up when you online - I think under this new paradigm your apps would behave in a similar way.

Wasn't this called "applets"...

[curious.corn]

... back in the Java 1.3 days? Something like late '90 or so... e

money banks vs. "data banks"

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this a lot on Slashdot, and I wonder... where do you keep your money? Banks are companies, as are brokerages.

My money in a bank is insured, so even if the bank goes under, money money will still be there. My money also does not contain sensitive facts about me (love letters/e-mails, medical stuff, photos--a properly designed encryption system is a must); my "money" is just a number in a database (though my debit and credit card transactions may show personal habits).

Also, if I want to "download" my money, it takes seconds for large amounts (credit card purchases and ATMs); with large data objects, how long will it take me to get (say) a birthday video from a "data bank"? (Especially with caps most ISPs are instituting.)

broadband caps?

[netean]

what a great idea. Create a web based OS... So what happens when I reach my broadband usage cap.... err no computer!

Re:EAT SHIT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you repeat that, my linux based parental controls blocked your antilinux rant shortly after stinky. Thank you.

Re:Prediction I like Midori...

[davidsyes]

SOUR. I suspect/expect theirs will be even SOURER...

I'll believe that...

[Beer Drunk]

when I see the stake through its heart.

What about like a terminal?

[SteelFist]

I can see this as basically a terminal application. With hardware so inexpensive and software so expensive, places where you need a lot of computers yet relatively low computing power this would be ideal. Simply buy a few computer shells, hook them up to a server running the OS and various word processing apps, and go. Kinda like a new approach to an old idea.

Midori

[ninken]

Google Image search "Midori" with the safe search off to find what Midori OS is all about!

Taking a cue from poorly engineered plot devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember how stupid you thought it was when all it took was Anakin crashing into the droid control ship, thus bringing it down and deactivating the might of the Federation's military? Or how about how stupid it was when Will Smith plugged his old Mac laptop into the mothership in Independence Day and saved planet Earth from destruction? Super stoopit we all thought. There's no way anything like the poor engineering of these alien civilizations is ever going to infect us literal Earthlings! Think again. This is where it starts.

But this isn't new...

[ekhben]

All current Microsoft operating systems run application code direct from websites already... often without the user even knowing!

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever heard of PXE?

Data Center

[uassholes]

It sounds like a Unix competitor for data centers doing cloud computing and search engines: 1) GUI not integrated into OS (like Unix) 2) Tasks movable around the cloud (like Google) This is not an OS for Granny and Junior with a dog scratching at the ground while you search. It's intended for real work (like Unix).

Yeah, but.

[crhylove]

You can do everything a Win + MS OFFICE machine does NOW, and for free. It's called Ubuntu and Open Office.

Who will pay $10 a month for something they can HAVE that's FREE? I don't really get it.

black hole or microsoft?

[muzicman]

Well which one sucks more?

hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I get it. Make an OS vulnerable to viruses and pay Norton to make viruses then an antivirus to sort of fix it. Make a good OS (XP) that everyone likes but has a long history of issues (95,98,ME). Then replace it with a horrible one (Vista). Then an even worse (7). Then kill of the PC all together and limit choice giving people dumb terminals running Midori. Everyone everywhere connects to Microsoft servers and Microsoft rules the world becoming the umbrella corp.

The Neverending Scam

[Doc Ruby]

Hey, wanna bet this new MS "Web OS" promises us a "database filesystem"?

Wanna bet it never arrives?

Self-inflicted wound

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft claims Midori can run applications in isolated containers like a hypervisor runs virtual machines, allowing for easy portibility and no dependencies on other apps. Wasn't that what 32-bit protected mode on the 386 processor was supposed to deliver 20-something years ago? Last I checked it wasn't the processor's fault, either- Microsoft deliberately writes their programs to be co-dependent by choice, not because the state of technology dictates it. So why will Midori be any different?

I believe windows is indeed dead

[Turiko]

Just look at it... xp has been killed off in it's prime, microsoft's doing. They released the abomination called vista and tried (and are trying) to force us to use it by, for example, killing xp Honestly, i use xp for games, but whenever i get a pc that isn't for games, linux it is.

Trust?

[KlausBreuer]

Web based OS?
Look, we can argue back and forth about thin clients and whatever - but let's look at something important: security.
All your stuff goes over the web. Do you trust your ISP? Your gouverment? Microsoft? With all your data? Yes?

I don't.

Oh great!

[lxs]

Now IE isn't part of the OS anymore, the OS is part of IE.

Let's all file an antitrust lawsuit to unbundle the OS from the browser.

Latency?

[the entropy]

A very interesting presentation(that took place at microsoft and that was done by a microsoft engineer): http://www.nwcpp.org/Meetings/2007/09.html

Latency is becoming more an more of a bottleneck in today's computers. Which mostly explains the ever-deepening memory hierarchy(L1 and L2 cache, DRAM, flash, HDD and finally the network). Playing a flash-based game or using an online application for a quick job is one thing, running an OS is...

Bah..FUD

[bryce4president]

Do you really think that the video game industry will sit around and let this happen? How is someone supposed to play Crisis or whatever new and shiny hardware crusher comes out?

You can't possibly support this with a web based OS. Not to mention there are a hell of a lot of other things that won't let this happen. Do you think that Dell, HP, Sony et al are going to let M$ just switch the platform that dramatically that no one will be buying newer and faster machines? The only thing they would need to get is new and faster interwebs connections.

Nope, there is more money to be lost by the hardware and software vendors than what M$ could make with a new subscription based and web based OS.

If this does happen then watch for games and other software start being created with full Linux support.

Let then pursue this, it is great for Linux.

Re:Problem with this model: Windows is a hidden co

[BlueRockGirl]

Exactly: Windows is free (http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free), which is why Linux hasn't overtaken it yet.

Article wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Windows is not dead
2. Windows is very much alive
3. Anything web-based IS NOT A FUCKING OS!

OK? Now would you like to go rewrite your tripe article into something that less resembles mental diarrhea?

Re:Could do it in BIOS, but stupid as hell to do s

[elrous0]

True that.

Midori?

[Anonymous Coward]

...well, if you mean the web browser based on WebKit, then yes, long live Midori :)

Microsoft knows how to keep dominant position

[setatakahashi]

Bundle Windows with new hardware so that the cost of Windows doesn't show up. Microsoft will have to hide the subscription cost and I would like to see how they will do it. I believe that's very unlikely that we'll see Midori become a product.

leverage

[Anonymous Coward]

did you seriously use this word

The missing pieces of the puzzle

[westlake]

In fact, I've got MS Office functionality, whether I'm connected or not, for FREE, because I use OpenOffice.org.
.

What you have are the components integrated into OpenOffice.org.

"MS Office" is a bundle of products and services which can take many different forms.

OpenOffice.org isn't Outlook or Sharepoint. It isn't OneNote or Publisher.

OpenOffice.org isn't MS Office Online - with its tutorials, templates, clip art, etc. OpenOffice.org isn't supported by the countless third party apps which integrate more or less seamlessly with Office.

Midori?

[MerlTurkin]

Translation: Midori is Japanese for "Windows Vista sucks buffalo ass".

Anyone heard of Midori Linux?

[Fjodor42]

http://midori.sourceforge.net/

SD Times: First, and Most Detailed

[j.j.jameson]

SD Times is the ONLY news organization that was able to see Microsoft's internal documents regarding the Midori effort. Its coverage was first, and has more detail than any of the other stories that have been picked up from this original coverage. You can read it here: http://www.sdtimes.com/link/32627 There also are stories on Microsoft's work to migrate people from Windows to Midori, and all about concurrency. It's all at www.sdtimes.com

Think more inside the box...

[th3rtythr33]

The common assumptions seem to include: 1. This system will be aimed at personal users. 2. The system will run on a major mobile network hosted by the service provider or MS. 3. A subscription model will be used. The article does point us this way, but I think since the article all but admits it's extremely speculative, we could assume the following could just as easily be the case (and would be much more practical): 1. The system will be aimed at corporate use on a private network, but with VPN access. 2. A particular instance of the system will be hosted on a private server. 3. The system will be sold as an IT managed server OS with client licensing for individual devices. Essentially, a move by MS to a redefined and re-purposed mainframe/terminal model.

Problem

[Spring182]

Wow. I can point out so many flaws in the logic of the boys in Redmond, for one, what if there's a slight internet outage? your computer would be braindead. Imagine trying to play Halo over a glorified VNC connection, or do anything that requires alot of bandwidth. Until the day comes that internet connections are typically 20+ MBits, this would be unfeasible for so many reasons. And even if speeds werent an issue, just think of security, how easy would it be for someone to park their car outside your house and with the right knowhow/programs see everything you're doing because it's going on an unencrypted WiFi? Not to mention that this idea would be putting too much power in the hands of the few, absolute power corrupts absolutely. But on the other hand, the only functional use for this would be a corporate intranet, and I believe they tried this with dumb terminals In summary, this will be the death of Microsoft, and this will never work

Computers are cheap, Bandwith is not

[skeptictank]

That is the main problem with this business model.

It's not a classic "web operating system" AT ALL !

[fr33zcz]

Microsoft has been inspirated by the best virtualization model, like IBM AIX has and uses Citrix-like service to allow remote access to its locked up applications, after you pay.

1. You get the operating system, that has been developed *only* to connect to M$.
2. All your data are stored in virtualized OSes and virtualized applications of M$.
3. Your box contains only access keys to your data on those boxes, that's why it's so portable.
4. It's not designed to make you secure, it's designed to make Microsoft's software "secure" in a way of enforcing payments for usage of M$ software.
5. Software runs on foreign M$ servers, applications accept remote connections and control, that's made by something like Citrix.
6. There will be no need and no way to download your copy of Office, nor a copy of any other application Microsoft produced.
7. You just pay per month for online access to it, all your data will be stored online on foreign PCs of M$ and your PC will be nothing, but a lighweight client.
8. What I described is what I strongly believe and what the facts I found contain.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/sep07/09-11VirtualizedDesktopPR.mspx
You can access the virtualized version of Office already today, just download Citrix-client, or wait until M$ makes an OS from it.