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Which Linux For Non-Techie Windows Users?
obarthelemy writes "Having at last gotten Linux to run satisfactorily on my own PCs, I'd now like to start transitioning friends and family from XP to Linux instead of Windows 7. The catch is that these guys don't understand or care much about computers, so the transition has to be as seamless and painless as possible. Actually, they won't care for new things; even the upcoming upgrade to Windows 7 would be a pain and a bother, which is a great opportunity for Linux. I'm not too concerned about software (most of them only need browser, IM, VLC, mail and a Powerpoint viewer for all those fascinating attachments). What I'm concerned about is OS look-and-feel and interface — system bar on the bottom with clock, trash, info on the right, menu on the left, menu items similar to those of Windows. Is it better to shoot for a very targeted distro? Which would you recommend? Are there themes/skins for mainstream distributions instead? I've been looking around the web, and it's hard to gauge which distros are well-done and reasonably active."
11.2 is very polished and nice and YaST makes it easy to get things done if you are unfamiliar with how Linux configuration files work or are located. It can install software almost as easily as Ubuntu, but in my opinion, does more things "right" than Ubuntu does. It has almost everything you would need and good overall integration. If you install it, I recommend you do it via the install DVD rather than the live CD.
Debian. Its
-simple
-easy to set up
-stable, even testing
-uses apt
-ubuntu tutorials will work with it 99% of the time
-you wont get laughed off of help forums as you would with ubuntu
-includes a large amount of DE/WM choices.
Before you begin, ask the people you want to help if they are willing to try something else than MS software. They are probably quite familiar with Windows, Office, Outlook, and Media Player, and will have a hard time learning something new. That also means you will be asked a LOT of questions, mostly things that you can not even come up with because they are so logical to you. So: know what you get into before you begin!
-- Cheers!
Give them Ubuntu. Out of the box it's similar in look and feel to windows. If you want it to look like OS X then install AWN and Compiz (or if their system is old/slow turn on Metacity instead of Compiz) and the advanced effects thing (I forget what its called but it lets you make those squishy windows and the cube for switching between workspaces and lots of other effects.
Having recently paid for Windows 7 Professional, I can tell you that Linux offers you so many benefits that it is hard to see how Microsoft will be able to compete in the near future.
For example:
If it wasn't for games and some professional software being released only for Windows I would not even think about paying money for a product that is far inferior to the free one.
It took me about 15 minutes to show them how to navigate around (compared to their old Windows XP machine that just gave up the ghost). The only thing I needed to set up for them was flash video so they can use youtube. The system keeps itself updated automatically and they'd already been using Openoffice under Windows.
They've got a brand new Asus notebook and Ubuntu found all the hardware bits by itself (including wifi and bluetooth). Haven't gotten a "support request" in months. I left a bootable Vista partition just in case they decide they want to get back on the Windows merry-go-round, but so far they haven't seen any need.
Best,
I realize Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but why bother transitioning them? If Windows works for them, and they're happy, you're just asking for a LOT of headaches with tech support, questions, and problems. Let them continue to use Windows in peace, unless there's some kind of real pressing issue that leads you to recommend them switching.
Mandriva Linux. Especially if you get the Powerpack. It has all the extras built right into the DVD so you don't have to go out and find it. I would also recommend getting the 32-bit version since it's more stable. I also site this article in Linux magazine: http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7643/1.html
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
I've never used it before, but I've heard good things about http://www.linux-xp.com/ which claims to be "The most user-friendly interface ever made for Linux". I don't think you would have too many problems switching somebody to a distro like Ubuntu or Mint. Since you mentioned that most of your friends and family only need some basic programs, it shouldn't be too difficult to install the software for them through apt-get and slap the icons into the top panel. The Ubuntu Software Center is decent enough as well that they can probably find other things that they may need as well, hopefully without having to call you. :P
Because it works out of box for most hardware out there. Also, many things are very intuitive, such as app installation, system configuration and location of files and folders.
Don't go with KDE3.5 just for that reason or anything stupid like that. Go for Gnome no matter what. Not because it's better per se, but because the distros you want to use will most likely have it as the default, and that is huge.
Which one do you go for? Ubuntu. Why? It's the biggest, easiest to find support for, and it works really well. As long as you do some setup for them, they will have no problems at all with it. Install the necessary software, run the first updates, change the panels to the way windows has it, if you want. That will take about 5 minutes as opposed to about a week for them to get used to the double bars. It really doesn't matter as much as you might think.
My dad suggested I try "my system" on the computer in my parents' room after XP got yet another virus. So I installed Ubuntu with Gnome (instead of my set up of Arch Linux with Xfce). They have had no problems, and they certainly don't know the first thing about computers. They are impressed by the speed, and like the idea of not fearing viruses. (That's not to say that security can ever be ignored on any system, btw.)
Just install software and maybe make some cosmetic changes, but don't try any fancy stuff. It works without fiddling as long as you don't fiddle with it in the first place. Good luck with it!
--
The man himself uses ubuntu.
I also enjoyed Fedora Core.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
Built specially for the transitioning Windows user. Built on Debian 5 stable core and KDE desktop and has all the basics in the live CD and an active support community. Most XP users I've exposed to it had no trouble getting getting things done on their own.
http://www.mepis.org/
6F 9E A9 1E 96 9F 74 27 ED B8 81 6D 0C 4E 1E 78
My other Sig is a 229.
I would suggest Kubuntu as an alternative. The KDE UI is much closer to Windows than Gnome is, and it retains the other user-friendly aspects of Ubuntu (including the parts that Ubuntu inherits from Debian, obviously). I also think it looks more polished, but obviously that's just my opinion.
I started using Kubuntu on my laptop and my media PC a year or two ago and think it's great. I'd be running it on my workstation at home if I didn't have the need for some Windows-only apps.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
Here's why:
The latest incarnation of KDE looks great. You must be warned though that the system your folks must be using has to be "powerful" enough. Here "powerful" is subjective.
Well, there's a Chinese distribution that I believe is made to look like whatever Windows look and feel you want right out of the box. I'm pretty sure it supports English so don't let the Chinese characters scare you away.
... hate to see them pick up a game or some funky peripheral/hardware that don't have drivers in Linux and then keep bugging you about why their GenCorp Brand Wal-Mart purchased Mickey Mouse USB LED Display toy doesn't have software to make it light up on their desk.
Vixta does a good job of looking like Vista.
Of course, these pale in comparison to the standard Ubuntu as far as support goes. Screw the Windows look and feel, that'd be my recommendation. Depending on how much time you want to sink into customizing this for them, there are tutorials for making Linux look like Windows 7.
Hope this helps. I also hope they don't need this distribution to do more than surf the web, get pictures off their camera and create documents
My work here is dung.
you can install Linux even when there are multiple hard drives in your computer (you can only install Windows 7 if there is one and only one hard drive installed)
I have Windows 7 installed on a dual hard drive system right now. It went on with no problem at all, and didn't touch my other drive, which is an Ubuntu installation.
If it wasn't for games and some professional software being released only for Windows I would not even think about paying money for a product that is far inferior to the free one.
There's a lot of stuff that's good about Windows 7 and the story is really, what do you do more. If all you do is surf and do email, with occasional word processing, Linux is just fine. Or, if you do web development, Linux is fine. But if you want to do client development, or play games or do heavy development with a database server, then Windows 7 has a lot of advantages to it. Direct X is a solid API, there's several flavors of sound support, built in MIDI emulation, and more.
To me, the Linux sweet spot really is as a platform for web server development and hosting. Sure, you can do that with Windows, but licensing costs mean you have to have another 800,000 visits per year, assuming a $1 click per 1000 hits, just to pay for each Windows server license, and that doesn't count the cost of SQL Server, if you go that route. That in turn factors to demanding more hardware to support the Windows tax, and that's even more money. Meanwhile, Linux is free.
This is my sig.
Ubuntu or Kubuntu nuff' said
Chris Sheppard
Speaking for myself, I prefer Fedora Linux. I find the look and feel is set up to be pretty close to Windows, enough so that sometimes people who look over my shoulder and see me using it assume I'm running Windows. If your family is moving from Windows, this might be a good choice.
Actually, my wife really likes Fedora, and she's a definite non-geek. It's easy enough for her to use, which (for her) is mostly email, web, text processor, and a few other minor apps.
I used to run Linux at work for several years, and ran Fedora. It's got the tools that replicate the functionality of Windows. (Unfortunately, I've been asked to move to Windows, at least for work. Ironically, I find Windows very confusing to use - Linux just seems so much easier to use.)
I'd say Mint is a good choice, though I'm certainly biased from using it for years now. It is easy to install, comes with everything most users need, and is Ubuntu-based, meaning anything you don't find should be easy to add. The included software manager makes it super easy to pick and choose optional software. At least give this one a look, as it has become quite popular, according to distrowatch.com and some other linux reviewers.
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I'd go for Linux MInt with KDE. It won't quite look like windows, but I've moved three people to Linux Mint this way with no problems. It's based on Ubuntu, but I've found it easier to use.
QT
I'm personally a big fan of Linux Mint. It builds off of Ubuntu, but it comes already setup with a number of proprietary items that other distros don't want to include, such as flash , mp3 and NVidia support. It has the familiar Windows-like setup you mentioned and it's easy to maintain with the mint-update tool, which lets the user know when there are updates to install. (I know other distros have similar utilities, but Mint's never seemed to break anything on an update.) It also has a number of other mint-* tools that make maintenance very easy and gives it a nice polish even over Ubuntu.
*slight crashing sound*
Quick nod to PCLinuxOS here. Out of the box simple, straight-forward, Windows-ish enough that even those relatives who have made the transition from Win2k/XP had minimal issues/adjustment time to get comfortable - seamless and painless, as the OP requires. Has a great built-in assortment of apps [covers all the bases outlined above] and just plain works and very well at that, even on somewhat older hardware. Gets my vote.
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand". -Milton F.
I'm going to jump to avoid the frying pan, and land squarely in the fire, I'm afraid, but...
Forget the distribution question... there are lots of them out there, most of them more than suitable.
The question for non-techie people is really more about whether to use KDE or Gnome... KDE is generally more Windows-like ("start" button, task bar, system tray, widget placement) and Gnome (esp. in Ubuntu) is more mac-like (minus the dock, but there are solutions to that also)
from there, I'd just say make sure to make/point out the easiest place to find the apps your converts will be interested in. Load up their bookmarks with links to repositories of good, easy to install, easy to use software, etc.
And if you are really looking to convince them to convert, be ready to answer a lot of questions. Make one of the biggest selling points the community, and be the primary representative of the community. (in other words, be a good example. be patient, answer questions, and show them how and where to discover the answers on their own. Don't just say "RTFM" or "Google? HELLO?" )
What I'm concerned about is OS look-and-feel and interface -- system bar on the bottom with clock, trash, info on the right, menu on the left, menu items similar to those of Windows.
All you have to do to get this with Ubuntu is to move the task list from the bottom panel to the top, delete the bottom panel, and move the top panel to the bottom. With a little research you could probably do this from the console (or by extension, a script) with the gconftool-2 command. The menu items are already sufficiently similar to Windows.
Making it act like OSX is slightly harder, but not really difficult. Add the AWN testing team PPA (some of the mac features like pinning an app to the dock as a launcher require the new AWN) and install avant-window-navigator-trunk and all the plugins ending in -trunk, remove the gnome-panel from the list of required applications (again, via gconf) and configure Compiz to include the functionality of Expose and Spaces, which is quite simple.
For both Windows and OSX-looks, there are numerous available GTK+2 themes which will provide the appearance of your choice. OSX has three or four different widget sets; you get to pick one that looks like any of them (or variations thereof) and all the GTK+2 apps will look the same, something Apple hasn't been able to manage. Windows-look is much the same; you can find Windows 95/NT4, Windows 98, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, or various other appearances. Making the gnome-panel look like the Windows taskbar is a simple matter of using the right background image, which you ought to be able to download easily enough.
I use an OSX-look; The visual effects of Compiz are slower than the effects on OSX ever since Xgl was killed off. But the rest of the OS is generally more responsive, so the final effect is fairly positive. With that said, you might consider just getting them used to Ubuntu's look. The only big drawback to it is that having two taskbars wastes screen real estate. That's why I'm using AWN with auto-hide; it's very smart in the current release. Also, this is the first version of AWN which doesn't simply disappear when compiz dies, which makes it a valid tool for the average user, who probably doesn't want to have to hit Alt+F2 and run Compiz. Instead, you can give them a menu option. This is still better than what happens on Windows or the Mac when an element of the GUI system dies.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I'ts really very pointy-clicky.
If I can ever be bothered installing and fighting (it literally is) Linux again I would probably give this distro a shot. http://www.linuxmint.com/index.php
Maybe others can lend their experience with it since I can't.
"we've got trenchcoats and bad attitudes" - John Constantine, HellBlazer
What I'm concerned about is OS look-and-feel and interface — system bar on the bottom with clock, trash, info on the right, menu on the left ...
Any distro running GNOME, KDE or XFCE (that is, almost any distro by default) can be easily configured in this manner.
... menu items similar to those of Windows.
For the love of God, no. This is one of the areas where Linux by and large kills Windows in terms of usability. It won't take long for them to appreciate the (mostly) logical grouping of programs in, for instance, Ubuntu's applications menu. The Windows Start menu is a nightmare by comparison.
Are there themes/skins for mainstream distributions instead?
Sure, but I wouldn't recommend them. Whilst I'm all for easing the transition, there's nothing wrong with at least acknowledging that a transition is taking place, so just give them a "normal" GNOME of KDE desktop.
This comment is for entertainment purposes only. Any similarity to real insight or information is purely coincidental.
As per subject.
Cheers,
Do you really need to ask?
Unfortunately (from my point of view) this is true. The average (ex-)Windows user will not give a flying fart about the egregious sillinesses the Ubuntu developers have decided to let loose upon an unsuspecting or uninformed world. But Ubuntu will mostly "just work", which will in most cases be good enough, especially given the prevalence of Ubuntu users in forum postings if they run into trouble.
Years ago, I might have cringed as I said this, but Mandriva might be a good choice for a Windows user without a techie background.
Incidentally, just in case anyone's wondering, my own introduction to Linux was Soft Landing Systems (later Slackware), and I now run Arch Linux. Works well for me, but I'll understand if that particular learning curve is too steep.
See what you think of PcLinux. It's built on Debian, so it's not too "fringey". Here are some screenshots. It compares nicely to the Windows XP User Interface, but not so closely as to be confused with Windows. The descriptions of programs are fairly easy for newbies to understand, and even the front end for synaptic should make it pretty simple for them to add on programs if they want to.
I transitioned a friend to ubuntu recently, he was sick and tired of getting viruses and the like. He is extremely satisfied so far. He recently asked me if iTunes works for linux, because his girlfriend has an ipod. She likes to use the itunes store, so the usual amarok/rhythmbox solution doesnt work. Unfortunately if you look at the wine application page for iTunes the rating is trash. Setting him up with virtualbox is just too extreme, he does not have a windows cd around. The biggest thing is check what software they use regularly, and make sure it works first in wine or has a decent alternative. Otherwise they will just be disappointed.
I'm not that tech-savy and I have XP and Linux Ubuntu partitioned on my PC. I'm happy with Ubuntu, but I would recommend keeping both OS and use a dual-boot, just in case; but Ubuntu has been great to me so far.
Why do people still partition their computers and use dual boot, now that virtualization is so common and convenient? Just askin'...
Windows users expect a familiar control panel to configure their box.
openSUSE puts out great, polished desktops. Their KDE 4 desktop is perhaps unmatched by any other distro, but YaST is what will really appeal to non-technical Windows users.
It should be noted that you may need to install a restricted formats package to get Flash, DVDs, MP3s, codecs, etc, and possibly a proprietary video driver. But there are 1-click installers that make this process very simple. After those two steps, you should be in pretty good shape.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Any distro will do, provided you are familiar with it and it works with the hardware. My now 60-years-old parents were using gentoo once, completely oblivious of the complexity of that system. You may even tell them that this is a new version of Windows (my favorite one, I show and explain newbies all the killer features of a linux distro (packet management, middle-click-paste etc. and tell them in a week or so, that this was linux all the time).
Since your needs are pretty simple, there are a few options that you can take:
It's really your easiest option.
Though I'm sure you're aware, I'll close this by warning you of what you might be getting yourself into in doing this. As you know, Linux for the desktop has improved significantly over the years, but it is still not as polished as Windows or OS X. This is important, as a lot of maintenance must be done through command line and your users will probably not put up with that for anything even remotely non-trivial. You will probably also have to be responsible for finding alternative software your friends might want in the long run since we live in a Windows/Mac world; be prepared to improvise when software they want is not available. You will also want to consider installing WINE on whichever distribution you choose, as OpenOffice will probably not be friendly with many PPT presentations. (On a similar note, be prepared to either install Office outright and deal with brokenness that might ensue, or be prepared to ensure that all of your friend's needs are met through OpenOffice.)
Good luck!
Go for Linux Mint, it's based on Ubuntu (*not* Kubuntu, which is usually much less stable and less supported out there). LinuxMint tries to be the prettiest out there and even as a power-user, I love to see and use all the bling. Unlike your usual GNOME environment, the system bar is at the bottom, and doesn't look much different than the windows one. I've never had a problem with LinuxMint stable-wise and the distrowatch.com index seems to agree that it's a very good platform.
Forced with an OS reinstall after my wife's computer died (Windows XP doesn't like the motherboard being swapped out from under it), I started her with Ubuntu this weekend.
With XP she was already using Firefox and OO.org and she's been using Gimp for awhile, so that wasn't a hurdle. She migrated to Gmail/Google Calendar a long time ago, so there was no need to learn how to use an Outlook replacement. It didn't seem to take her much time at all to pick up the file manager, and the "Places" menu allows her to jump around quickly without necessarily knowing how a Unix filesystem is structured. She seemed appreciative of the games included in Gnome (Mahjonng, Minesweeper, Solitare) , Hearts was easy to install, and we had one small Windows game that worked just fine in Wine. Using SD cards from her camera is actually easier due to the fact that it shows up under Places with a recognisable name and has an easier to access unmount function. She was using an older version of AIM for IM, but seems comfortable with Pidgin.
At some point I'm going to have to tackle a VirtualBox install so we can use iTunes to sync her iPod touch (Fuck you very much for locking the music database, Apple). I already have an XP image available on my system that I should be able to easily copy over.
Overall, it seems to be going pretty well. Except for a problem caused by the maliciousness of one device manufacturer (fuck you again, Apple), all hardware worked painlessly (I was surprised to find that even her printer was automatically installed).
...is that Linux is not Windows. Make sure they know not to expect exactly what they are familiar with when they used Windows. I think skins to make it look and/or feel like Windows are dangerous, because other behavior is expected, too.
On most, you can choose between KDE, Gnome, and a range of other desktop environments where you can pick where the panels, (or kickers?) are, arrange the clock to be in the corner, etc.
Ubuntu has a strong community behind it if they want to venture out to support for themselves.
I'm not familiar with other distros and the strength of their communities, but also keep that in mind when deciding which one to give them.
Ok... what gives.. what's that last 5% exactly, and what can we do to fix that?
They ought to be able to run $LATEST_WINDOWS_GAME. There is software to allow this called Wine
Definately Ubuntu. I use Debian myself, but I have recommended Ubuntu to several n00bs after bad experiences with other distros. Generally Ubuntu Just Works and they don't have to bother you for help; n00bs can install it themselves, keep it up-to-date themselves, they can install the software they want and plug in all their peripherals without fiddling with drivers and settings. Other distro's generally just don't have the critical n00b-userbase mass it takes to deliver user-friendly quality all-over on a broad range of hardware.
Having said that, I'll stick to Debian. But I find it much easier to ask my Ubuntu-using girlfriend to print something for me than to fiddle with cups:P
0x or or snor perron?!
I use Linux ALL the time as my main OS and would never consider using Windows again, nor the Mac, having been burned far too often by both of them.
That being said, I use the free MS PowerPoint viewer via Wine to be able to properly view PowerPoint attachments.
OpenOffice has never been able to play those properly, but the free viewer plus Wine combo work absolutely perfectly.
In essence, I suppose what I'm saying is that for closed formats like PP, MS still does it best.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
I think Ubuntu may have the best community. And I think the community may be a big deal to a new user.
Also, I think Mint may be based on Ubuntu. As I understand it, Mint looks a bit more like Windows, and Mint offers more "out of the box."
I use debian lenny and xfce4 myself.
Out of the box it has all the features you describe. Flash, Java, A/V codecs all pre-installed along with the usual plethora of software. The only manual steps would be to install drivers (nvidia, some wifi; you'll be prompted by a notification balloon) and if you're in the US, edit /etc/apt/sources.list and change the ubuntu repos to a local mirror. They're set by default to the main servers which apparently are connected to the net via the AT&T EDGE network... The MintMenu is a very good replacement for the start menu found in XP/Vista/7.
But definitely hit up distrowatch and check out the screenshots and reviews. If the target machines are able to boot off USB stick, then grab unetbootin which will automate the process of downloading the iso and putting it on the stick.
Shift happens. Fire it up.
You obviously don't know that much about Linux yourself, and your friends and family are going to get pissed off when they try to use discs with Windows games/applications in the drive and they don't work. Or when they download programs that don't work. Yes, you can use Wine for some things, but it's still not going to work the same way as running a native Windows box.
Fedora, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Mint, and probably a whole host of others (that I haven't used recently, if at all) with either a GNOME or KDE desktop can easily be configured to look enough like Windows to make the look-and-feel part of the transition relatively painless. Come to think of it, I'd probably opt for a distro with long-term support, say CentOS or an Ubuntu LTS release; something that didn't need constant updating (other than security fixes). As has been pointed out previously, just be sure they're not going to run into any serious gotchas. For example, I do some printing of web coupons, and there are a number of sites that use a coupon printer that's Windows only.
Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
My 8yr old daughter uses Ubuntu without issue. I use mainly CentOS, but am impressed by Linux Mint. All have Windows-ish interfaces with start bar and icons. She bounces between XP on her laptop and Ubuntu on her desktop, and doesn't have any issues; she even tells me what dfferences there are between them.
...or they will scream "Oh noes! OMG!! The COMMAND LINE will eat my brain!!!" and freeze up. Just install Ubuntu and let them think you've upgraded them to Windows 7. Then they'll gripe a bit about the changes and settle down to use it.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
"Having at last gotten Linux to run satisfactorily on my own PCs" - so you struggled and you want to foist it on others? Leave them using Windows. Hell, be nice and buy them Windows 7! Either that or get them a pretty looking distro (Ubuntu) and some unsupported hardware and have them build a driver from source, or better still recompile a kernel, then offer 'stick with this or go back to Windows'. Tl:dr: Ubuntu... for two weeks until they get pissed off and hate you for it
My mother uses Ubuntu and likes it. I've also found Puppy and Sabayon to be great distros to give to grandparents, kids, and other people with no computer knowledge. Heck, I use Ubuntu MYSELF, because I like the fact that it's easy to use on the surface, but lets me hack away at things deep down. Mint is a good alternative to Ubuntu, but I find the Ubuntu guys are starting to outpace them. Good distro though.
Don't go with KDE3.5 just for that reason or anything stupid like that.
Are any major distros still using KDE 3.5? I know it works, but it is pretty old now, and the newest 4.x versions looks and works great.
Which one do you go for? Ubuntu. Why? It's the biggest, easiest to find support for, and it works really well.
Mint. It is based on Ubuntu but is designed to provide a better, more complete out-of-the-box experience. I have to say, it delivers. Supporting it is pretty much like supporting Ubuntu, though the Mint support community is also very friendly and helpful. The software manager, updater, and some other little things are really nice, and simple. There are 32 and 64-bit versions with Gnome, KDE versions, and more.
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
My 70-year-old mom is on stock Ubuntu with no problems. She's happy that her old laptop runs faster now, and she can do everything she needs pretty simply.
--Lee Daniel Crocker : http://www.etceterology.com My life is in the public domain.
[_] some of us aren't cheap - we can buy a second hard disk and devote it to an entire OS;
[_] we don't want to look at that "other OS" more than once every 6 months,
[X] that "other OS" has legal restrictions on virtualization.
[_] What is this "other OS" you speak of? I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
[_] In Soviet Russia, other OS boots YOU!
[X] I don't run "that other OS", you insensitive clod!
Very nice and polished os which new comers will like very much. Not nasty looking like Ubuntu. I know I know its just eye candy but just like ass and titties its sells. My gf has no problems navigating and using it as shes as computer hater and doesn't use computers much. I've also ran OpenSUSE 11 before the last two versions of Mint and this was also a very nice and polished os. Now having sung the praises of Mint I have to say that in the Mint 8 version compared to 7 there are some weird notebook related bugs that pop up once in a while and the Broadcom wireless drivers don't always work that well with my Dell 1720
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Point them to the best places to get good deals on Windows, Office, and decent anti-virus and backup. The $300-400 they would spend, or extra $200-300 on a new computer with all four items, will be far less than the time they lose transitioning to Linux.
If they don't have any money to spend, at least have them invest $50 in a hard drive so they can switch back if they need to.
Until Microsoft totally loses their mind and locks the entire user experience with DRM, there will not be enough momentum in the user application space to make it worthwhile. Either that, or the takeover of the internet applications will make the concept of an OS obsolete. This seems to be the wager of Google's Chrome OS.
If you want to give them KDE, OpenSUSE is a good choice, since it has nice KDE integration of OpenOffice and Firefox. And OpenSUSE in general has good quality packaging and regular releases.
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/?PHPSESSID=ea0f3bea1301c2c17d046d3a4d4ffac0
My karma is not a Chameleon.
Inevitably, they will have question and/or problems. Using the same distro will allow you research issues on your own system and it will be easier should you want to walk them through things remotely. In addition, it will foster a sense that you're all in this together. If you use something different, your efforts will be increased and you'll have to constantly answer questions like, "Why do you use something different than what you recommended."
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
---
Linux Feed @ Feed Distiller
What I'm concerned about is OS look-and-feel and interface -- system bar on the bottom with clock, trash, info on the right, menu on the left, menu items similar to those of Windows.
In this case, a good choice would be Linux Mint. As a whole, it's a rather well-designed system (their motto: "from freedom came elegance."). And it's handy that it comes with the drivers and plugins that Ubuntu leaves to a separate download for (I assume) license or patent reasons.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Looking too much like Windows is not a good thing. Since Ubuntu looks nothing like Windows, people do not expect it to behave exactly like Windows. Less questions of "Where is my Control Panel? I want to add some software!"
I can only agree. I switched from XP to Ubuntu about a year ago, and have never looked back. It's intuitive and easy to use and whilst not a Windows clone the (Gnome) desktop is clear and logical. It really does "Work out of the box". OK, I struggled a bit early on with some aspects (I wasn't used to the Command Line), but providing you set-up the computers with everything your family and friends need, and are prepared to visit them from time to time to install new stuff, you won't go far wrong.
They'll soon get used to the "New Look". Also they will immediately see the benefits (of Linux) such as the quick boot time, and in the long term, other benefits such as the lack of viruses etc will become clear.
Smivs on the intertubes!
Really any of the most popular distros on distrowatch.org should work as long as they come with a GUI. KDE by default is oriented in a way similar to windows, and other DE's like Xfce or Gnome can be configured that way with very minimal effort. Any of the *buntu's, mandriva, opensuse, fedora, linux mint, debian, centos, and simply mepis should be suitable for your purpose. I would recommend that you start them off with something that you are familiar with in case there are issues. (similar package manager/desktop environment/configuration files among other things).
:)
If you are looking for themes they are all over the place.
http://art.gnome.org/themes
http://gnome-look.org/
http://kde-look.org/
I introduced my mom to Ubuntu 2 years ago and she has been using it since without any problems. I do upgrades for her (she doesn't seem to notice otherwise) and I helped her get Google Earth installed. And with SSH access I can help her if something goes wrong from miles away. My favorite part of setting it up was telling her it was all free. She couldn't believe me
Are any major distros still using KDE 3.5?
Mepis.
Mint. It is based on Ubuntu but is designed to provide a better, more complete out-of-the-box experience.
I did try mint a while back, and I agree with you. However, I saw that as being about the only advantage. A quick set up will completely negate the need for that. And after that, you're with a distro that has the largest forum database and is guaranteed to be designed for easy upgrading. The reason I say that is that Mint is based on Ubuntu, so it's either going to diverge from it, attempt to correspond, or else base new versions on new versions of Ubuntu. This could mean trouble upgrading.
Maybe these aren't problems, but I think there's no argument to sway me towards Mint instead of Ubuntu for this.
--
Get KMint Elyssa - aka Linux Minut KDE CE - Elyssa
You will do well to SKIP KDE 4.x till KDE rights the ship back to the stability and features of 3.5.10
KMint includes EVERYTHING YOU NEED:
Java, Sun Java, not the useless openjava
flash
codec
OpenOffice
Everything you need to get up and going ready for you.
http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=28
1311393600 - Back to Black
Ubuntu is the newbie distro. It has a huge community, lots of support, packages for virtually everything, and most tutorials written with it in mind. It is definitely the most user friendly for people who don't want to deal with stuff.
-- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
XPGnome is a XP look alike script that converts a Ubuntu Gnome distribution to look like Windows XP. Personally I don't think making it look like Windows XP is the best way to go, because it is not Windows XP.
I've tried Mandriva and OpenSuse. In my opinion, they are horrible compared to Ubuntu/Mint. Many things are broken, many are counter-intuitive.
Good, polished usability beats eye-candy any day of week.
My first experience with Linux was with SuSE Linux and other distributions in 1994. I've used Linux as a server OS continuously since at least 1997.
Yesterday I tried to install Ubuntu 9.10 on a desktop system. In the end I gave up: Ubuntu just wouldn't let me use any resolution beyond 1024x768. Apparently it had failed to autodetect the monitor, a situation in which all FAQs, HowTos and forum help point to the X11 configuration file ("copy the config file over from an older installation" was frequent advice...). Let's ignore for a second that having to suid-edit a complicated text file to tell the OS about the monitor is an absolutely ridiculous UI failure: None of the manual configuration attempts even worked. Then I tried installing the proprietary ATI driver: Couldn't detect something and just quit. Googled advice: None really, but someone explained something about having to install kernel headers and other X11 devel-packets. Let me remind you that I was trying to set the display resolution. That was the end of the line for Ubuntu 9.10.
Then I installed OpenSuse 11.2. Same thing: Wouldn't let me use higher resolutions. No apparent way to specify the monitor. WTF? At least OpenSuse had the decency to put SaX, SuSE's X configuration tool, somewhere deep into the GUI menu, which then allowed me to choose a monitor and finally use its native resolution.
Is Linux being sabotaged? Are you guys out of your freaking minds? It's 2010! How can configuring the display resolution still be a problem? Which Linux distribution for non-techies? MacOS or Windows. I'm serious. Any hope I had left for Linux on the desktop vanished yesterday.
I found that a new hard drive with Ubuntu (with the latest Open Office and Firefox) ideal for people who are used to Windows XP. New hard drives are usually much faster and also will give the family members to always switch back if they really hate the Linux. But before I suggested Linux, I first I got them used to Open Office and Firefox (with extensions like AdBlockPlus and Delicious) on Windows XP. I also think Linux is not really for everyone...
Lubuntu is very easy to figure out if you're a Windows user, same layout, etc. Plus you get all the benefits of Ubuntu. Super-fast boot as well, even on old hardware. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu
The problem is the default nowadays is not deciding on your own. Your PC manufacturer almost always picks Windows for you.
And you have to be what is nowadays considered an expert (and used to be considered a newbie) to be able to format and install a new OS of any sort, or even to upgrade Windows.
I agree fully. Having slight differences is a good reminder that the user is now unique among their peers, and uses something superior to the average. Like driving a Ferrari, it's got everything, but just a little different than their neighbor's Buick.
However, normalcy is nice. Having a steering wheel is good. This is why I usually just rearrange things a bit. Sure, it takes a bit of effort, but you can rearrange the applets on the GNOME panel and get a decent facsimile of Windows, but with different images. It's enough to match up with basic instructions from less-than-savvy friends, and it's certainly close enough to learn quickly.
Once I've converted folks, I've often put a sheet of paper next to the computer, listing equivalent options between Ubuntu and Windows. If you want to do something and can't figure out how immediately, look at the list. Eventually, that list will disappear from use.
Finally, one of the most important things I've done to convert someone has nothing to do with the OS itself. I always leave my cell phone number and a card listing the hours where I'm not otherwise occupied. For the next week, I'll get several calls, but the user gets someone friendly to help them. It also often serves as a nice introduction to the community in general. If I'm unable to really help right then, I'll direct the user to the Ubuntu forums. Calls drop off rapidly after that.
This turned into an essay. Sorry about that.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Its got to be Mint an out of the box clean ,good looking solution with codecs
a better Ubuntu
Of course, if he just stays with XP then there's no disruption or learning curve at all.
Yes, them not wanting to switch to 7 is a great opportunity to cause them the same new-system headaches but with Linux.
If you want XP, just use XP! I don't understand Windows clone distros. If you want Windows then don't switch to Linux.
One thing that I had a problem with when converting non-tech interested people to linux was the unavailability of apps like google talk and yahoo messenger. I think empathy can do voice chat on google now, but yahoo is still off the table( which is a problem, because most of the people who you're talking about probably still have yahoo ids). As for the distro, don't choose anything that doesn't have synaptic or some other package manager where it is EASY to enable non-free repositories. This is absolutely critical, and the main reason why fedora failed totally with my friends when I tried to get them to use it. As for look and fell, most people just ignore the interface altogether and distill what they want pretty easily, so don't worry about that.
For some reason, our Blue Gene runs suse. And for some VERY unknown reason, someone in tech support decided that our desktops would run suse too.. As suse has the option to run gnome, I didn't complain that much, as KDE sucks hard and it seems it's getting worse.
That would be ok, it at least gnome worked on suse. It doesn't even associate .tar.gz files to anything! Let me tell about the rest.
C'mon, suse was crap, bloated and weird by the time they ran into 7 cds. It didn't get better since then.
This is perhaps the core problem: You seem to place yourself in a position where Linux is bad, and one would have to defend it. The problem is, that people, especially your non-techie friends, will pick this view up and make it their own. That this isn’t good, should be clear.
Why not be honest: Linux really is pretty cool, isn’ it? Runs on pretty much every computer without trouble. Especially on old systems it runs way better than Windows. And look at all the cool things it offers that Windows will never have:
There is no need to be defensive with Linux. None. Different does not mean bad.
There without exception always is a part in every change, that feels bad. That’s how we humans are wired. Like when you start doing something for the first time, and it feels bad without any logical reason. But after a time you wouldn’t want to miss it. That phase would be there too, if one transitioned from Linux to Windows.
Now the important point For people to get over that hill, they have to know and have a safe feeling, that this is a good choice, why that is so, and there is just a transition phase to overcome. So your job is, to be secure in yourself, so that they can pick that up too.
An example:
Wrong:
You: Sorry, I will convert your PC to Linux. Don’t worry about the problems, they are not that bad.
Friend: No! I don’t want to have problems!
You: But it is better because of X. I’ll install it anyway.
(later)
Friend: Hey, that shit you installed me is bad and caused problems! You suck!
Right: ;) ;) :)
You: Hey, I got a great solution for your virus and usage problems! Look here (*show compiz video*), doen’t that look really cool?
And viruses can’t even attack you with it! It doesn’t have all those stupid problems that annoy you on Windows. But I don’t know if you can live without that.
Friend: Hey, sounds great. Can I try it?
Yu: Maybe. If you don’t expect it to be Windows. You know: Just as crappy.
Friend: Please!
You: Allright. I’ll install it, so you can try it out.
(later)
Friend: Hey, I got this problem, but I’m used to it, and don’t want to give up and go back to Windows! Can you help me?
You: Sure. Can you double click on the icon on the desktop that says “Let me look at your computer”, and read the number it shows to me?
Friend: Yes it’s $ipAddress.
You: Ok, I’m quickly checking what’s wrong. A OK, found it.
Friend: Thank you. And hey: Your new Windows Linux is pretty cool.
You get the drift. :)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
The KDE UI is much closer to Windows than Gnome is
That pretty much removes the first question anyone new to Ubuntu will ask, "Where is the Start Menu?". KDE is definitely the way to go here, because the whole desktop looks practically the same an Win7.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
* It has more of the little tools which people expect and use.
* The tools are better integrated with one another. Gnome tools are standalone.
* It's faster (lower latency menus, windows etc).
* It works more reliably. The taskbar for example works, horizontally or vertically.
* It is more like windows XP like than Gnome.
* It's easier to customize/configure than Gnome.
Overall, KDE (3.5, haven't upgraded) just works well. The problem is the application namespace. The "K" thing. Seriously. Get rid of it. I don't need to know that I'm using Kontact, Knode, Karm Kaddressbook or or Kmail. Hide all that bollocks at the filesystem level.
Deleted
I would have to say that, while Ubuntu is a good choice, I wouldn't do straight Ubuntu - I'd pick Kubuntu. Out of the box, Gnome doesn't look anything like Windows - it looks closer to OS X than anything. KDE is going to be a lot more like Windows.
Ask 10 different people which distro to use, and you're likely to get 10 different answers.
Personally, I've been using RedHat/Fedora since it was pre-1.0, and it works for me. Is it the right choice? Maybe- maybe not- but it's my choice. I've also used Slackware, SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, and Debian, but keep coming back to Fedora.
From the standpoint of the look and feel, you're most likely going to be using either Gnome or KDE as a window manager, and with enough playing around, you can make either one of them look pretty much like Windows if that's your goal.
There's a lot of good distros out there, and personal preference plays a major role in which one gets recommended. I'd recommend trying a few out, and seeing which one gives you the best functionality and ease of use based on your specific needs. There's a lot of good options suggested throughout the comments here, so I'd say try out the ones that have the most mentions, and see which of them works best for you.
Good luck!
No. In my experience, Kubuntu is a pretty poor KDE distro. I think Kubuntu quality and ease of setup is about 2 years behind Ubuntu. Do some research and you will find a ton of complaints about it. If you want GNOME, Ubuntu is pretty great, but if you want KDE, try something else like maybe SUSE.
If these folks wouldn't get thrown by a Mac look and feel, Ubuntu should get 'er done nicely. If they will get thrown off by a different GUI, I seriously question whether these folks are smart enough to drive a car in another state than the one they learned to drive in, or when renting a different vehicle than the one they own...
Furries make the internet go.
Their applications are very limited. Leave them with XP since it is working for them. You should only suggest Linux as an alternative if they are considering a netbook. But just suggest it, let them decide. Nothing and nobody is served by becoming an evangelist for Linux. It is just another operating system, nothing more.
Even though I'm something of a gnome fanboy, I'd second this. Windows familiarity is the big advantage of KDE from my perspective.
I'd also mention that you don't need to take the leap all at once. You can start getting them accustomed to alternative software choices gradually with free software that runs on windows like OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, Amarok, etc.
I say go with Ubuntu 9.10, it has been very good and stable for me (the best release yet 9.04 was the worst for me). You can set it up the way you want it with only one bar at the bottom, and have the trash icon and stuff like the way you want. Here is one of my setup (http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/695/notebookjuly09.png).
For such basic use, the distro is not that important. I moved my parents from XP to debian with 1 ten minute tutorial. They are both over 55 and with minimal computer experiance. Then i moved them again to Ubuntu with even less problems. Since everything works the same it dosent really matter if it's at the top or at the bottom, the left or the right corner. Besides you can move the toolbars around. PS: Both my parents agree that Ubuntu is easyer to use than XP, they say it's easyer to lurn because it functions are more logicaly placed. My 2 cents.
http://www.canonical.com/projects/ubuntu/unr
Gentoo of course!
The KDE interface that comes with Ubuntu will be very familiar to Windows users. The only major difference is in the click/double-click setup, but that can be changed in the "System Settings" dialog (in KDE by default, a single click will open a file, which can be annoying if you are used to Windows)
However, you need a fairly powerful machine to run it comfortably. Anything that is "Vista Ready" or "Designed for Vista" will run it just fine. If you have more of an XP machine, Ubuntu can be tweaked to be more "Windows-like"
The Internet has given stupid people the resources of intelligent people.
Malware / trojans ruined my family's Windows routine (most recently BSODs after a security update revealing the Windows rootkit). Ubuntu has worked for them a lot better. It comes with masses of easily installable free software. Admittedly they aren't too picky about exactly which "letter writing" or "picture editing" software they use and don't play games (other than flash games). The best part is I can log in remotely (at their request) to help them out when necessary rather than stopping by after work every few days to remove the latest trojan they got from facebook or yahoo mail.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say: so what. Do tech communities matter to non-techies? Do former Windows users need or want a community? Even though they didn't need one when using Windows? The word from the Linux communities is that it is easy enough for anyone and easier than Windows. It just works, right?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trolling for Windows and it's great that Ubuntu has a community too. There is value for many in having a friendly community to scrape tech tips from. I just wonder if it really matters to a non-techie who is just looking to play videos, send e-mail, and visit Facebook.
I want this account deleted.
Sorry, but your arguments, if one can call them that, are hair raising. ;)
First of all: KDE 3.5?? That’s phased out since what? A year? Why would you even bring that up, instead of KDE 4.4, which in street tests was shown to be so intuitive that people thought it was a good Windows 7.
Then you start the full scale Gnome fanboi evangelism. No arguments why you think it’s god’s gift from the heavens, but just a “everyone does it, and it is TEH BEST per se”. How again am I to take you seriously that way? :/
The KDE or Gnome (OR XFCE, or a ton of other options for that matter!!!) question is one of if it fits your needs. Every option has its strengths and weaknesses.
Gnome’s philosophy is that of making things simple, no matter what. It’s their biggest priority. So big in fact, that they often sacrifice freedom of choice for it, by just leaving no setting to change things. But for users who don’t know it better anyway, this is a great concept. Since they can trust someone with bigger competence on good choices. For a power user however, it’s just unbearable.
KDE, on the other hand, when forced to choose between freedom and simplicity, goes the other way. Freedom to configure seems to be their biggest priority. So big in fact, that sometimes, you get lost in the settings and options, and feel like it’s bloated. But for users who want their system to fit like a glove, this is a great concept. Since they can have exactly what they want. For a Jane Workerbee however, it’s just unbearable.
Of course it’s not that extreme in reality, and there are many gray areas. But that’s the major difference IMHO.
So in conclusion: Only a fool speaks in absolutes.* There simply is no absolute good or bad. Weigh the pros and cons, look at how they fit your needs, and make an educated choice. :)
___ ;)
* Did you get the self-reference?
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
From my own experience, past the first hour of explaining where to find stuff, you'll get a LOT less support to do by using a good linux distro than by staying with Windows, as long as they don't want to play the newest games out there.Linux is way less of a hassle for the standard user, who is going to spend 99% of the time in MSN, Skype or on facebook, and who watches vids on youtube, than windows (and yes, I include even Windows7 in that). Additionally, If someone like that asks you for a certain software ("I need Photoshop, cause my cousin's neighbour's Aunt said it was great to resize pictures"), you can easily log in via ssh and install the foss equivalent, thus saving yourself the effort of being physically present and your "non-computer-type" person either a lot of money/the danger of catching a virus (you'll still end up having to explain how to use the software, but that would have happened with windows software nevertheless).
"DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
Or Mint, if you can't be arsed to install restricted-extras and the medibuntu repository.
Flagging restricted-extras and adding medibuntu (for decss, among other things) is a one minute task.
There is a lot of SuSE promotion in here, but if you compare package management, debian based systems are a lot easier for the newbie. I used to be a fan of SuSE until I switched to Ubuntu after the "peace in our time" Microsoft-Novell non-agression treaty, and I really haven't looked back.
For 32 bit systems I am also rather fond of Pardus. It's KDE done right.
--
BMO
One thing though..
If these friends and family want your help every so often to "fix" stuff that doesn't work with their computer - then they should change to whatever YOU feel most comfortable with.
I've told my family that I Do Not Do Windows. At all. If they've got windows-questions, they'll have to go somewhere else. (If you think I'm being mean, I'm not. I haven't used windows on any of my computers since 1999).
If friends/family/others want my help with computers, they'll have to use Linux.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
Seconded - The only thing stopping me from moving to Linux is games support. I'm a gamer, and need games on the day of release, and need them to just work (admittedly sometimes this is a problem with Windows too, especially with some DRM :P). I don't _need_ fancy graphics to enjoy games (I still play Angband and varients, and am starting to get into Dwarven Fortress), but I'm still a slave to pretties in some ways and thus a slave to Bill.
Man, this has taken me about 1/4 hour to write... Mephedrone FTL
Ubuntu does the best job of a simple consistent desktop, and their installer "just works".
Linux Mint is my favorite - it is 99.9% Ubuntu, but out of the box they install DVD support, media codecs, Flash, Java, and have a more Windows-like start menu.
Don't go with KDE3.5
3.5 isn't even available for current versions of Ubuntu. You have to go all the way to 8.04 to find it (not that there's anything wrong with 8.04)
Indeed. Go with KDE 4.4. 4.4 is nearly god-tier. It's available from the kubuntu ppa.
--
BMO
+1, Sassy
GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
I'm afraid I'd have to say "None of them". Ubuntu just mostly works -- I've never got sound working properly, and the community hasn't been able to help me (and I'm at least moderately techie). I agree that the community is excellent, but I think the non-techie will still be left bewildered. They will get directed to the technical paper addressing their problem, but the community doesn't usually have the patience to completely hand-hold somebody all of the way. At very least the non-techie will need a techie to fully set up the system for them.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Actually I'm the one who's tired with them getting viruses and bringing back their PCs every 3 to 6 months :-p Macs would force them to buy a new, and expensive, computer, that would be too different from what little they already know, so that's pretty much out. XP is becoming a real pain, and since 7 changes things enough to throw off very incompetent users, I'll take advantage of that to transition them to Linux instead, hopefully bringing an end to the quarterly/semesterly de-crappings.
I my self am pretty satisfied with Ubuntu, but it definitely does not look like XP at all. I'm downloading openSuse right now, and will try out the KDE version in a VirtualBox on my PC, since it seems to be what most recommend. My original post included that I quite like PuppyLinux too, but for some reason that was edited out.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Honestly, my advice is to not try it.
Linux is not a beginner operating system for two simple reasons: Command lines and config files.
Sure, you can install Ubuntu and have a slick interface that’s easy to use, but if something goes wrong or you want to customize something you almost always have to go to the terminal and/or edit config files.
To me I interprete this is as a sign of lazy design. After all, it’s easy to make a OS look nice and to make it easy to use, assuming nothing goes wrong.
Even something as easy as changing a display setting in Ubuntu requires the user to issue a gksudo command. Want to install a Windows Media 9 codec? That’s command line work.
I think the FOSS community does not understand that the major hurtle is not making Linux easier to use, it’s that it is still a GUI interface on top of a command line driven foundation and only hard core users want to have that sort of losely integrated approach (ask most mac users if they ever had to mess around with BSD). To most people the ideal OS is one where you never need to go to the command line or modify a config file for any reason—including to adjust settings or fix problems.
I have been attempting to convert anyone and everyone that will listen since the release of Vista.
In my experience the best distro that provides an easy transition is
Simply Mepis
Through trial and error I have learned that the non-techie is not concerned with updating their hardware often and that may cause an issue with ubuntu and other flash versions of Linux.
In which case Simply Mepis as a neat little cousin called AnTix designed to give a better experience on older hardware.
I would wait for either Ubuntu 10.04 to come out or wait until the Linux Mint that is built off of 10.04 to come out. I say this because as it will be the LTS, they won't feel like they need to upgrade (you can tell them that they get free support for 3 years). Linux Mint, although I have not used it myself, has gained a lot of traction as an easy-to-use distro because of all the preinstalled software and proprietary drivers and such. You can teach them how to use the Ubuntu Software Center, Evolution, maybe even install Boxee for them as a media center and call it a day. The reasons I say to wait on Ubuntu 10.04 is because the GDM in 9.10 doesn't have the "click on user" to login UI, you must type in username and password (I've received complaints from Windows users about it) and there is no "easy" way to fix that and stability. Generally speaking LTS releases tend to be a bit more stable (at least in theory). If you don't wanna go with Ubuntu, OpenSuse has a very good KDE implementation (for the "Windows feel") and a nice control panel, that would be a better option if the look and feel of Windows is slightly more important than ease-of-use.
"The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is at 9.8m/sec^2" -Marcus Dolengo
If you configure (And you should) the Packman repository
I second that. Packman is a must have repository.
Given weird IP laws, there is a lot of stuff which Novell isn't allowed to ship inside openSUSE (MP3 support, DVD support, etc...). Packman is *the* place to get all the stuff one needs (in addition to providing a nice location for some more up-to-date software and software which weren't available in the main repo).
Though one gotcha with openSUSE 11.2 : the latest opensource drivers for ATI and nVidia aren't included out-of-the-box (no nouveau at all, and the out-of-the-box radeonhd had problems supporting my 3800 AGP, though it works perfectly with older cards), so no automagic updates of kernel along with corresponding video drivers.
Will probably come with the next release (11.3)
Until then, you'll probably have to :
- either use the proprietary drivers and assist your friends re-installing them in case of kernel update
- or use the opensuse repositories with latest opensource drivers (might require also the latest kernel which is updated quite often)
- or use something like the vesa 2D-only driver with vesa or shadowbuffer 2D-acceleration. (it's much faster than XP's vesa driver and *IS* actually usable for a user wanting only browsing web & checking mail)
- or hope the target newbie user have intel-based gfx cards (real intels, not powervr-rebranded-as-intel).
Good thing: Since 11.2, Novell tried introducing continuous update into openSUSE (so you can also "dist-upgrade" 11.1->11.2 the way you do it with Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc.)
The only advantage I see for Ubuntu is a much bigger and visible community around it.
(Easier to find ubuntu-specific answers when googling around)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I would start them off using Firefox and OpenOffice under Windows, if they aren't already. If that's about all their using on the computer, then you can transition them to virtually any KDE or Gnome based distribution later with minimal hassle -- assuming you (the tech expert) are on hand for those inevitable questions. Remote access helps. For example, configuring the printer, installing some browser plug-ins that you forgot to setup, telling them that a pop-up ad really is just an ad and not a virus notification (yes, I know someone that was tricked by those), etc.
I've done this for two family members (who are at the computer=browser level of experience) already and haven't looked back. I used Ubuntu in both cases, but realistically if your there to help any distribution you are comfortable with maintaining will work. The non-tech user isn't likely to use any linux applications or functions you don't tell them about or maintain for them, and is inevitably going to turn to you for the usual tech questions no matter what. Ubuntu is nice though because as you train them in the ways of Linux, there's enough user-friendly GUIs for them to navigate.
It's true Ubuntu will probably end up on the machine in question.
It may also be a good idea for the articles poster to try out a bunch of live discs to see whose distro works out best for him.
http://www.livecdlist.com/ would be a good place to start. Live disks are a good introduction to linux anyway. Most have installers and it gives you a fair idea whose driver installers work on the box in question.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Or if you want KDE, I suggest any KDE distro except Kubuntu, which may just be the worst KDE distro, if not the worst distro of all time.
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
Thanks. DLing it as we speak. I'm using Ubuntu myself, and it certianly looks very different from XP.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
If you want XP, just use XP! I don't understand Windows clone distros. If you want Windows then don't switch to Linux.
They DON'T want XP though, thats the whole point. They were forced to use windows because of their monopoly on software and mindshare (where people think microsoft = = computers) and now they just don't know any better than to realize that viruses and bluescreens aren't just "part of computers", but part of windows.
GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
I know the feeling :-p
I'll try out a Live CD before final install, just to make sure the hardware is recognized. I've also had numerous issues installing Linux, and found the tools very lacking, the doc mostly non-existent (or outdated), and the forums very hostile. After literally wasting days on some issues, my take now is 'if it's broken, try to fix it for 1hr max, then give up".
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I can buy a 250GB laptop drive for $55 at Fry's, or a 500 GB drive for around $70, and new laptops typically come with a lot more than 30 GB, so, for many users, the recommendation to just dump the entire DVD onto the drive seems quite sound.
Sounds like a nice sane approach.
Have you considered posting your list online? I'm sure it would help even techie converts to Ubuntu out when getting started.
I'm finding the vast majority of issues I've run into trying to setup a Linux box is getting partition sizes right on the first try. The documentation I've found for this online is fairly dated, and re-partitioning is not something that should be done on a regular basis.
Just a thought.
I wouldn't consider the mad hatter mad. Just reality impaired. He sure can make a mean cup of tea.
Mint is based on the Ubuntus, so it has access to the same software repositories.
The installer is pretty much the same as Ubuntu's, which means it's easy.
The one thing that Mint has over regular Ubuntus is that the Mint builders have included all the non-free, somewhat-proprietary stuff about which most FOSS purists get their panties in a twist. Having been a Linux user since the beginning, I agree with and fully support the idea of FOSS, GPLs and the like. In theory, it's wonderful, and it's brought a great set of computing tools to the world. But the Richard Stallman-influenced world of "only fully free is acceptable" makes no sense in the real world (well, maybe in Stallman's world), especially among the people the poster is attempting to assist.
Most Windows users/converts want stuff to just work. Leaving out multimedia codecs because someone has a copyright on it or because you're offended by the license restrictions doesn't help the user who doesn't understand those lofty concepts. Yes, people can learn about and and decide for themselves, and yes, hopefully, someone will come along and develop fully-free, GPL'ed versions of all the offending tools. But, in the meantime, people want their shit to work.
Mint comes as close to this environment as you're going to get. You do a basic install, and everything works out of the box, including just about any multimedia content you can throw at it. And the standard install has all the things you need: a messenger tool, Thnderbird for mail, multiple browsers (including Firefox), and office suites for all the Powerpoint stuff (OpenOffice is there by default).
I can recommend the KDE Community Edition for a number of reasons, the most important of which is that the KDE 4.3 setup in Mint 8 will provide a very comfortable interface for someone transitioning from Windows. Yes, people will have to learn a few things, like which app does which thing, but even the menu design will make that simple. The familiar toolbar is there, pretty much the way you described it, and adding desktop and toolbar widgets is a snap. This is a feature that will be a kick to a lot of new users.
There's no question that you might run into some issues with really exotic hardware, but those instances are becoming rarer by the day. As for customization, well, there's a lot built in for changing the look-and-feel around, and there's a lot of skins and themes available with a simple download.
With a very active on-line community, there are few issues that can't be solved.
Have a look at the LiveCD and see if you agree. I believe most of these users will be very pleased.
http://www.linuxmint.com/download_ce.php
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
If they were on Vista or 7 I would agree, but he's moving them from XP. I would suggest that Kubuntu isn't much (if any) closer to XP than Ubuntu is.
Too complex. You better know CLI if Wine doesn't set it up out of the box, and for those cheapo Walmart games folks pick up that is most of the time. It works great for things like TF2, but the casual games that folks pick up at Best Buy? Not so much. I would suggest Crossover Games with their nice GUI over Wine myself. Much more noob friendly.
And as for that 5%? That too can be summed up in one word-Walmart. Non geeks actually do a LOT of their shopping there, and I have found through my own informal tests that you are looking at maybe 35% of the stuff in Walmart being "supported" that is if you count doing three pages of CLi to get it to work. Otherwise you are looking at more like 22%, and of course since there is no penguins on the box the users has NO way to tell what will work and what won't. That is the "gotcha" that convinced me not to sell Linux boxes at my shop.
I have a feeling this guy, who sounds like he is just slightly less clueless that those he is gonna be expected to support, is gonna spend a lot of time staring at bash and reading forums trying to figure out how to get the latest piece of junk they got from Walmart to work, and for all his trouble they are just gonna bitch anyway. Better to just leave them on XP if he doesn't want to be full time tech support.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Windows 7 preserves almost all the metaphors and usage traits people are used to from XP, and introduces new convenience features. I think a transition to Windows 7 from XP would be a much smoother process than an introduction to a new platform.
Is there a good reason to switch the family to Linux, other than for ideological reasons?
// -- http://www.BRAD-X.com/ --
The reason is: I'm tired of XP getting broken, and since there's a transition to 7 looming on the horizon, I'd rather transition them to something that may be, if not more reliable per se, at least less virus-prone. I've tried every trick in the book, from antivirus to firewalls to non-admin User account to alternative browsers/office suite (my bad I guess, I never did anything about PDF and Flash)...
Most of my users are not really qualified to use a computer, let alone decide on their own what OS+Software they should use :-)
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
First, you can make any distro look any way you want. Next, PCLinuxOS IS a good distro but it is based on Mandriva, not Debian. Mandriva was originally based on Red Hat. Second, it's been my experience that "regular" Windows users don't know what an operating system is and don't even know the difference when you spring on them a different OS. The only real concern you should have is security fixes. So then you have to go with an OS that will tell them something needs to be updated, and then guides them through the update. Ubuntu does have an automatic update feature now, but that seems like it could cause problems. This all being said, I just did a minimal install of Ubuntu and then installed LXDE and a few other useful "normal user" apps on a box for family members who don't really know how to run a computer. They aren't having any problems and haven't said anything about the difference between that and Windows XP.
The issue with minor distros is drivers, especially video drivers. I like PuppyLinux a lot, too.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
It will not matter to them. Any distribution will be OK. Perhaps better focus on GNOME or KDE. Next see what you are comfortable with. Is that RPM or DEB based?
As you will be the maintainer, see that auto-update is configured.
Now if you are going to do a lot of installs and you want to configure them in a specific way with some software installed and other software removed, take a look at http://susestudio.com./ You can easily make your own distribution and even already add things like MPlayer and codecs so that they will have a fully operational system. If you have the rights to use and/or distribute e.g. codecs is another question. No idea about YOUR legal situation.
SUSE studio lets you test it and also build live CD, HD images and the like.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I've migrated several people to OpenSuSE with success over the past years. Everything works, all nedded software is in the repository.
Because
[X] that "other OS" has legal restrictions on virtualization.
Any details and examples?
Or if you want KDE, I suggest any KDE distro except Kubuntu, which may just be the worst KDE distro, if not the worst distro of all time.
Any specific reason(s)?
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
Install Ubuntu, then head over to Phrank's Ubuntu Blog article "XpGnome - Make Linux Look like Windows XP" (http://ubuntu.online02.com/node/14): download and run the script, and voila! Ubuntu XP. Note: Karmic Koala (Ubuntu 9.10) made changes to gdm, so the script doesn't change the login wallpaper, but if you're setting up single users then set up the machine to auto login and your user wont mind.
I've used Puppy, Ubuntu, and Mint recently, with a laundry list of other distros over the years.
Mint is your hands-down best out-of-the-box choice. The reason is simple -- it comes with a Flash player already installed. That means that facebook, youtube, twitter, and every other flavour-of-the-week website is going to just work as soon as installation is completed. If you're using other distros, you're going to have to enable the universal, guess about which open-source player and version will work, and cross your fingers. (Remember, if it fails ONCE, Linux is too complimicated.) It is based on Ubuntu, so you get a lot of support PLUS all the proprietary functionality that the average user will want.
Puppy is faster, and by a long shot. Even though it's not as polished, it is usable, so much so that my daughter can use it. (She is six.) I've got another copy running on my ancient P2 366 laptop, and it's actually usable.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
benefit = me not having to clean viruses so often. And it's either Linux or 7, no that XP is nearing EOL. I'd rather go with Linux if I can get it to be not much more painful than transitioning ot 7, for the sake of minimizing maintenance headaches.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
You wrote: "Having at last" Means a lot of work before you got it working, only satisfactorily, for your own self. It would be same for each person you deploy for. Unfortunately the lesson is only learned after you have tried for yourself. In the end it gets clear that Linux is not ready for non-techies.
The main reason I install Linux on (other's) computers is because I want to get some peace and I get it by giving the owner of the computer a reliable system.
And because I know people have special wishes I give them KDE as it is Konfigurable.
Basically, to get my continuing support you'd better not be running Windows as it takes way too much support time.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
or maybe I'm asking now to get a headstart ?
I've already got Ubuntu up on a couple of PCs, managed to get the susual stuff, and even VLC after a bit of tweaking, running... I'm just missing a good IM client and Skype, and I'll be up to speed with what 'my' users need. I'm still having issues with NTFS-to-NTFS disk/directory synchronization (timestamps seem borked ? I miss xxcopy and SyncToy badly :p ), backups/restores (linux seems to spread its config files even wider than windows ?), and RDP remote desktop (VNC is very slow).
they don' know much about XP either, and less about Vista. The only place they go for help is me... It would be a good laugh to send them over to technet...
Mac is expensive, different from XP, requires a new PC...
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
And then you still only have second-hand access to certain hardware.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Seriously.
Yes you will have to learn something and won't have something you claim as "usable" right away but I feel everyone should learn the basics from the UNIX world when delving into the Linux world.
I started on SuSE (8.0 at the time when it was still spelled SuSE - little 'u') and didn't really learn anything until I started compiling software not in the repo's... then I moved into compiling my own kernel for better driver support then I eventually made the switch to Gentoo.
As I was learning to use and configure it I realized I was completely blinded by the click-et-y-click-ness of SuSE. GUI config tools ruin the mood when it comes to learning and loving Linux.
If you don't learn how to fix issues manually you will have a bad time. GUI tools can fudge the config if you somehow install the wrong version for the version of the software. In that case the GUI tool will break and you will be stuck with an unusable mess and may have to resort to CLI to fix it.
Learn the basics first or you will regret it.
(footnote: if you remember the old SuSE config tools - YaST I think - in version 8.0 and the way they operated in the day, they had a lot of serious issues and frustrated me on a regular basis.)
Can you really call Mepis a major distro and keep a straight face though? I personally know several people that use either fedora, debian, ubuntu, gentoo, opensuse, or even arch. I don't think I've ever met or heard of a single Mepis user though.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
I've never been able to make kde really look like Windows.
Gnome on the other hand...
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I say let's come up with a video for new linux users that is similar to the scene in the matrix when Morpheus first loaded the construct for Neo. Let it be a guided interactive tour where the user can learn more about the tasks they're interested in as it compares to the"other" OS.Let it show what other distributions can do. After a short time the users will drift towards a particular distribution they want to try. I believe something like this could leave a new linux user walking away from the experience with a sense of confidence instead of being overwhelmed and confused. At the start of the video, guide them through all versions of windows and show the progress of microsoft. After that, point out the barriers and then break through them by letting them do the breaking through. Show a 10 minute video with a visual representation of what goes on behind the scenes as linux installs - from moving the kernel into memory to first boot. The show how linux is all around them in various devices and on various servers across the internet. Sow how microsoft puts up the barriers users don't see. Show how exploits have become integrated into Os's - focus stealing etc... Let's show how microsoft has had to bow down to open source - what open source does to free the strangle hold. Many people learn visually, let's not neglect those folks. Many people have had so much hell with microsoft that they're afraid or unwilling to try anything new. Let's get off our asses and put the final nail in the microsoft coffin!
I installed Linux Mint on my father's laptop last summer, after years of resentment "Linux? what's that, I need to use programs others use as well!". There was Vista preinstalled, but it seemed alienated to him and bloated (couldn't even connect to my wireless network), that he agreed to change it to "whatever". He uses it only for web, email and some office work (Firefox, Thunderbird and OO did the trick).
:)
...
I had to leave early after the installation, so I didn't get much feedback, but I didn't hear any cry for help. In the holidays, he expressed gratitude, and "how can unorganized people make so good a system?", hehe. He looked skeptical, when I started to upgrade the machine, as he is used to Microsoft's shenanigans (New flashy GUIs he doesn't really need!). But after the update from 5 to 7 (was pretty hard though, should probably have done a 5-6-7 and ATI closed source driver isn't supported any longer), I changed the theme back, and he went on using it, as nothing has happened
Apparently he isn't a total non-techie, since he managed to installed some programs, since I have been away. And this was without showing him. But he didn't do any updates (I don't know why Mint uses a Lock as a update-symbol, it doesn't do the trick in my book (as a M.Sc. Interaction Designer and a study of visual design especially).
On a side note, I am pretty annoyed about Ubuntu's screwups of the audio system though! On my laptop (Mint), I need PCM at 90, so it would sound ok, but Pulseaudio puts it at 100 at every use (so I use alsamixer instead). On my mediacenter (Ubuntu minimal), the AUX is making a hissing noise, so I have to turn it off at every boot, since it doesn't save alsa settings (and since it is minimal installation, it is not even pulseaudio that screws up this time). Both issues has happen recently at an update, but I have read on google, that many more have had this for years
(yes this can be compared with sex)
They (and I) are tired of viruses, and face at least an upgrade to Vista in the near furtue. Don't use non-web games (except Scrabble).
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I repeat eonlabs' request for a list posting. That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Post-rock/Ambient/Drone and other noise.
I think your argument is a Red Herring. You're looking out for number one to the extent of switching them to another OS for your own benefit but you're too shy to tell them you don't want to help them with their computers any more.
Once I've converted folks, I've often put a sheet of paper next to the computer, listing equivalent options between Ubuntu and Windows. If you want to do something and can't figure out how immediately, look at the list. Eventually, that list will disappear from use.
Can you post that list here? Sounds useful. Thanks.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
I agree with you about the hardware. On the software side, I've been watching over them for several years, so I'm fairly confident I can anticipate issues.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Personally I like OpenSuse, but don't want to argue distros here. One think I would suggest is to try out the Live CD's first and settle yourself on one and then distribute that one across the board. It's a lot easier to diagnose things if you have the same distro and version. I do have to disagree with the gamer comments above. I think that the poster has "clients" like mine that just want to surf, email and write the occasional word and excel documents. Open office is fine for this. most people i do this fine are fine with the games that come with linux like solitaire and frozen bubble. One thing to really look at is the desktop. even though people argue about distros the real difference is the desktop. Personally I prefer KDE to gnome but that's my preference. In my case the main reason to do this is updating an older pc that windows is getting slower and slower on. The reason I love linux is the fact that it doesn't suffer from windows registry rot. The linux machines i've installed are all still running. The windows machines all seem to get slower after the first shareware and games get installed. (Not to mention installing anti-virus software which is really necessary but an overhead on some already ancient machines. Just my 2 cents.
I've never taken Suse seriously - it bothers me. We used it in school and it was like the Mac version of KDE. Freaked me out : )
Really though, you're better off giving them Windows. There's always something. I decided against installing Linux on a newbies computer because what little they had actually managed to learn was seared into their brain from years of suffering from misunderstandings, and they will most likely refuse to unlearn them. They WON'T go looking for the control panel, as I'm pretty sure only people who know what theyre doing go in there anyways.
The problem is that illiterates are ruled by fear, intimidation, and live by routine and predictability.
Just give them 7. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the OS, and yes, it is way better than XP.
If you want to give it a shot for the sake of the experiment, let us know your results! Give one Kubuntu, one Suse, and one 7 : )
-Red
Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
That might be true. However, at least the start menu is in the same spot.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
I think that you should give PC-BSD (http://www.pcbsd.org) a try. It is working really well for me.
Thank you for all the answers, especially the more constructive and helpful ones. They can be categorized as follows:
1- Don't do anything: not really satisfying.
-> XP breaks regularly, even with antivirus, firewall, router, Firefox, non-admin user... must be PDFs or social engineering.
-> XP is nearing EOL, so there will be a transition, either to 7 or Linux
2- Not your choice, let them choose: Mmmm... non-techies ? Someone has to choose for them. Most of 'my' users already use OOo, firefox, thunderbird and VLC, so on the apps side the transition should be OK except for games and very specific apps.
3- You're an incompetent idiot, crawl back to your cave and don't pretend to be able to support anyone: kinda true, and helpful forewarning about the atmosphere on many Linux forums. I'm trying to get better though, and think Slashdot is a good place to ask that seminal question. I will of course work on it myself before rolling it out. Right now I'm on Ubuntu 9.10, seems OK, Basic software OK, VLC a bit cranky to setup, need to look for IM and Skype, and a backup/dir synch solution that works well with NTFS (RSYNC has issues), and a remote desktop solution that works well (VNC is ugly and slow, the nx-desktop has issues)
4- PCLinux, PuppyLinux, Vistx, and other minor distros: I myself talked about PuppyLinux in my original 'Ask', but for some reason it was edited out. My concern with those is driver support: I'd like to use the same setup everywhere, and with 'lesser' distros, I'm afraid of drivers problems.
5- Use KDE 3.5 instead of Gnome: thanks, that sound like a very good idea. KDE 4.4 seems now stable, but may actually bee too much for my needs.
6- OpenSUSE seems the consensus, with honorable mentions to Ubuntu, MEPIS and Mint. I'll try that out, since my latest attempt at switching Ubuntu to Kubuntu fubared my PC (i'm sure it was fixable, but couldn't find how to, and didn't get helpful help on the forums). SUSE seems natively KDE, so that's better.
7- XP themes from gnome-look or KDE-look.org: I'll try them out. My concern i similar to the 'minor' distros: long-term evolution, and support. I'd much rather use a distro that works for me out-of the box, with very minimal tweaking nor extensions.
Again, thanks for all the answers and feedback.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
For newcomer I would pass one of my netbooks with default OS, most likely Acer Aspire One variant of Linpus (actually growing to act so).
It has best simplification of interface, I have seen so far. To be warned, on the harder side there are adding your own applications to interface (sadly, Skype was not there) and limited choice of international input methods built in (though main variants are supported out of the box, sure, my specific).
Also EeePC was not bad, at all, regarding interface of Linux variant - you have even choice of switching between simplified and not.
If not these, I would recommend Ubuntu today (effectively focused distro), though have preferred SuSE some time before, also to consider.
Servant of karma
Ubuntu with this:
They'll soon be completely done in - if you don't pile on too many alternative applications.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Your family and friends know NOTHING about Linux and the different distributions. They will be looking at you to fix everything,
You said it.
And because OP is the one doing the work he wants something low-maintenance and we all know Windows isn't that something.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
IMHO Elive is the best at the moment. The latest one even has a nanny mode installer and all the necessary things that you mentioned are there except for a Microsoft Office replacement but that can easily be rectified if you install that latest version of Openoffice.
I have used tons of different distros and the distro i put on m y wifes and kids computer is mintlinux it works good and i get very little complaints. Its based on Ubuntu but they seem to get a bit more right and it doesn't look like they pooped on your screen on boot up. rody
I agree that Ubuntu and/or Linux Mint (which is based on Ubuntu) are both great, strong, popular distributions. Also, Xandros is an interesting choice for Windows converts in that it has a GUI interface with designed with those kinds of users in mind. PClinuxos is also a simple distrobution which could work well. There is also a piece of software called XPDE - http://www.xpde.com/ - which stands for XP desktop environment. XPDE is a linux desxtop environment which mimics the look and feel of windows XP. So perhaps if you installed Ubuntu or Linux Mint plus xpde, the xpde could act like training wheels for windows users in the world of linux. Good luck, and enjoy this FOSS consecration!
I would rather recommend Kubuntu (KDE4 desktop) instead of Ubuntu (GNOME desktop). As far as I know KDE4 is mature now. Regardless whether you choose GNOME or KDE4, I would definitely recommend to get the desktop effects (Compiz) working.
Can't type "windows vista virtualization eula" in the pretty box?
Here's one
Let me guess ... you're also the type who leaves one square of toilet paper on the roll rather than change it.
Contrary to what most basic users think, they can make the switch to Win7 or Ubuntu pretty easily. Especially for basic internet and e-mail (which realistically is the extent of most people's computer use). I just switched my parents to Windows 7 and asked them what they thought. Their comments: "We didn't really notice anything".
The problem with switching family to a *nix solution is still going to be software. There are certain programs that your family will want to use that is simply unavailable. First that comes to mind is TurboTax. If you plan on switching family's OS, make sure you're not making more work for yourself down the road.
And really, with the Win7 family pack (3 upgrades for $149), Win7 is a realistic alternative to Win XP.
First off, I don't have any skin in the game and don't care which OS you select. There are a number of fine choices. Of course, the topic itself invites a lot of trash-talk, but I would say most of it without proper context. I'm not hearing a whole lot about why one solution is better given that it will be run by non-technical people, and yet supported by you.
In an effort to be constructive, here's what I suggest. Assuming you run Windows now, if you don't already have a copy, download (for trial at least - but I think a purchase would be money well spent) a copy of VMware Workstation. Then you can install and compare a number of different Linux distros from the comfort of your own PC. I will also be good to have a reference version of the OS you choose installed and available to you if you'll be supporting folks who run it. I'd stick with mainstream distros purely from a pragmatic standpoint and a belief that popular distros like Ubuntu and OpenSUSE will continue to get a lot of care and attention. The top 3 or 4 distros are usually on most vendors hardware or software compatibility lists.
If it's not about cost, then Windows 7 is still an option you should keep on the table. Look and feel only speak to 'where is the calculator icon' type of questions. Where I find most non-technical people struggling is lacking in concepts and therefore lacking in context. The basic ideas behind Windows remain unchanged.
Anecdotally, in the distant past I helped migrate a small office of about a hundred folks from Mac OS 6.x to Windows as part of a larger corporate initiative. The Monday morning following the migration, one of the users had created a folder called "System" at the root of C:\, and dragged as much of the Windows folder as possible over to the new System folder. Thankfully, those were the days when you could still boot to DOS and clean up fairly simply. Still, we had never anticipated someone doing that, because we were focused on simply teaching them how to use the new systems. And yes, it was evil to migrate 100 Mac users to Windows, but that is beside the point.
THIS!
http://gnomestyle.blogspot.com/2007/05/make-ubuntu-look-like-vista.html
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Did you go out and find that same hill to photograph?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
In all my experience of converting people from Windows to Linux, the real n00bies (the ones that tell you things like my computer is to slow to run the internet) aren't the problem, it's the people that think they know what they're doing in windows that are the problem. For example, I've tried converting a few of my kinda tech savvy (as in they know the parts of the computer and could probably put together a desktop) friends by having them dual boot... It was a disaster. They were asking all the questions one would expect: Why can't I run exe's, where's the C drive, why should I unmount disks before I pull them out, ect.
... fix it" I respond "How about I install something called Linux which will fix all your problems". After 10 minutes of helping them understand the basics of computers they're sold. I've done this with at least 5 people and I have had maybe 7 questions in the last 2 years. I check in every once in a while and I hear the same thing "My computer is still fast!", "I haven't had a problem with it", "Why doesn't everyone use Linux?" , "I can't believe I was going to spend 1000 on a new computer" ... the list goes on.
After giving up for a bit I changed the crowd I was trying to "convert" to people that had never conceptualized that Windows isn't the computer that it's just software to help (some would argue) the computer to run. This went over incredibly well. It usually works the same way every time: Person comes up to me, says something like "My computer is really slow, I think myspace gave my a virus
It's my personal hypothesis the less someones knows about computers the better the are to learn to use gnu/Linux because they are already used to being uncomfortable with computers and have no preconceptions of how the interface should look or where the "C" drive should be. So don't worry about the look and feel of the OS, just make sure you explain it's different, and why it's different then you should be fine.
As I understand it, Mint was based on Debian, switched over to being based on Ubuntu, and then switched back to being based on Debian. So what it's based on depends on which version you get.
N.B.: As I understand it, Mint is a shallow alteration of either Debian or Ubuntu. A bit of eye-candy change, a few codecs, etc. When it's based on Debian it's based on either unstable or testing (forget which) and then hand tuned.
I used one release for a week, but I didn't notice any major improvement over Debian (I think that was what I'd been using) and switched back. Perhaps if I'd been into audio or video I'd have noticed more difference.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I have deployed Mint Linux several times as a replacement system for non-techie Windows users.
Mint Linux is built on Ubuntu, They have tweaked Ubuntu, added various "non-strictly-free" codecs, drivers and programs. The start menu us on the bottom left and former Windows users just love the 3D effects, desktop cube, wobbly windows ...
One caution, do not install from the Live CD because they did bork those default choices because of the limited space. Also, don't waste your money on the PowerPack Edition as you can add the full repositories via PLF above (sans the 3rd-party apps the PowerPack provides access to).
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
My wife didn't need any panel rearranging, but she did ask for a blue 'e' to open her web browser for a couple years.
This space intentionally left blank.
Why isn't alsamixer saving your settings? Any idea? Or did you just not know about alsamixer?
After all, I am strangely colored.
Ubuntu is a safe bet for now. (though quality of the product is slowly moving in the wrong direction IMHO) Debian "testing" is a close 2nd. Suggest adding VirtualBox and re-installing any XP License that they may own..just in case they have a small need. Also, since you will be supporting them I suspect bit..set up a reverse SSH command, so they can hit your system for when you need to access their system. (you do have a static IP right? ) :-)
regards
js
Malware isn't just a part of Windows. If the user is stupid enough to run malicious code with elevated privileges then their computer is going to turn into mush like you describe, regardless of the operating system. Hiding root inside a cryptic shell doesn't really count.
Also, bluescreens haven't been a real complaint against Windows since XP pre-SP1. Any lingering problems are due to drivers, and Linux has much nastier drivers than Windows. Crashes are rare and Windows handles dying programs better than Linux. Badly written X applications occasionally cause my X to freeze up but I've never heard of such a thing on Windows.
I am pretty sure 2pac just trolled here with a "How Do You Want It" spoof. There is internet after death! Yippee!
'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
Looking too much like Windows is not a good thing. Since Ubuntu looks nothing like Windows, people do not expect it to behave exactly like Windows. Less questions of "Where is my Control Panel? I want to add some software!"
my assessment of linux mint v. ubuntu is that they both look substantially enough like windows for someone to wonder where their control panel is. linux mint has a control panel, though. so i think it's a slightly more windows-user-friendly OS. but factor in the community, and i vote for ubuntu.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Puppy is faster, and by a long shot. Even though it's not as polished, it is usable, so much so that my daughter can use it. (She is six.)
I actually think a six-year old is far more qualified to use a new OS than an adult.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Two things:
Mint is based on Ubuntu, but comes with all the post-install crap already done for you. It has the bottom panel with menu button (not bar). It's nice and green, not brown.
My recommendation for older machines is LXDE on Ubuntu or Mint. It can run nicely in 128-256MB RAM.
Put identity in the browser.
If you were asking me personally, I would ask you two questions -- and that would determine what I would recommend.
Before the flames let me explain...
* If you were looking towards the 'Enterprise' environment, I would recommend CentOS. There is reasoning for this -- while it's geared towards more Linux central users, it's also the most compatible towards Enterprise applications.
* If you were looking towards the Enterprise 'Desktop' I would recommend Ubuntu; with the caveat to understand that some packages that people understand as standard (i.e. MySQL) have historically have had problems with the versions that were included in a distribution. Historically, I could name MySQL and Ubuntu 8.10->9.
* If you don't have an infrastructure that already depends on a common distribution -- look at SuSE and Redhat. The (dis)similarities are somewhat minimal but there. If you have a Windows (TM) infrastructure already present, give a serious look to SuSE's offerings; good or bad with what they have done to the community.. they are in bed with Microsoft and do have some compelling offerings with integration with the SuSE Enterprise Server/Open Enterprise Server lines.
* If I was starting from scratch with infrastructure -- look at (and evaluate) FreeIPA/Samba/CUPS. Think about your client desktop however -- Windows? SuSE? Ubuntu? It makes a difference. If you have disparaging Linux distributions you have to reconcile the naming/user conventions in your LDAP directory.
Pick one distribution for the server and one for the desktop -- hopefully they are the same derivative. For example, Debian for the server and Ubuntu for the desktop -- or CentOS/RHEL for the server and Fedora for the desktop. This way you maintain the user/group LDAP portability between the distributions.
You don't need to run code with elevated privileges to allow malware to completely permeate into every aspect of the software you use or gain access to the data you deal with in Linux.
The title names it. Ultimate Edition is the cream of Linux distros and it has a very familiar GUI. Based upon Ubuntu it obviously carries with it the ability to use programs in the Debian repositories. I have run every major version of Linux as well as many less known distros and to date Ultimate Edition rules the roost. In second place Mint is nice but the latest Mint releases don't seem quit as nice as some earlier ones.
This is modded funny, but it's not untrue. Between work and home, I use Ubuntu and Windows 7 about equally... and I have to admit, my Windows experience in the last few years (with quality hardware, and well-supported drivers) has been excellent. The only bluescreens I've gotten in the last ~4 years were just recently, due to an old failing hard drive. Removing the drive fixed that.
I think both Linux (Ubuntu in my case) and Windows have each come a very long way in the last 5 or so years. Neither is perfect, but both are pretty good. The biggest problem with Windows these days is its popularity -- more malware gets written for it than anything else, much of which doesn't even require exploits (other than exploiting the user him/herself).
Pretty much all the popular distros are relatively easy to use these days. If "look and feel" is simply a matter of where the task bar is place and where the clock is, then rest assured that can be set with pretty much any.
If they really only need a handful of apps you could just leave them with a default Installation of anything and be done.
But there again, anything more than that may take getting used to. Things like mounting drives or even just using the package manager can be trouble, but Ubuntu certainly seems to have got it to the point that it *just works*. You can't go wrong with recommending Ubuntu.
So you are telling me that you are using a linux distro for 16 years and still has no idea about how to fiddle with X config? I don't get that
Ok here my take on this subject. The average person who is not a tech-geek-know-it-all Trusts the opinion of the tech-geek-know-it-all which is why they ask us what is the best way to go. Now lets look at whats happened since Windows XP.. Microsoft has decided to come up with last time I counted 7 different versions of Windows 7, and although there are so many versions, in the end are the different versions really that different? The Menus/Options bars etc is pretty much the same. So you can pick a version of Windows 7 depending on the budget and hardware and off you go. Now lets look at Linux, I've read through almost half of the comments posted here and I'm more confused from when I read this topic and I thought I knew a bit, and I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Computers and Operating systems. The problem with Linux is, there may be 7 different versions (distros) or more, but they all look different and install different.. compared to all the versions of Windows 7 which in the end look very similar, and work similar. What the Linux Community needs to do is come up with a Unified Distro a sort of Linux Windows. A distro that when someone asks which Distro of Linux to use, you simply say USE THIS VERSION and be done with it. Everyone in here has named at least 4 different distros and thats according their tastes. Well a Non Linux User, doesnt know what flavour they will like... they expect an expert to tell them which flavour is the best. If Linux enthusiast want to convert people to Linux they need to come up with a Single Distro that you can simply recommend and would be the defacto standard. Sometimes too much choice is not a good thing, its like how people go into a sandwich shop and they see all these options on the menu but in the end they order the same thing they always do. I've installed Ubuntu, Red Had, KDE and even played around with Knoppix and in the end I didnt know which one to stick with, because I dont want to invest the time one one Distro to later find another Distro is better and I'd have to re-install etc.. Look at MAC OSX (I dont own any apple products), thats a good example of having not too many versions.
you can easily log in via ssh and install the foss equivalent
That was my first thought too, but if you're going to enable SSH on a publicly available port, make sure you use public key authentication and disable password based authentication. Relying on the user to have a decent password is never a good idea.
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
A possibility is to run linux on your laptop and keep your games machine dedicated to games (I'm presuming here that your games machine is a desktop and not just your laptop)
That's all there is to it. Ubuntu is easy. You have to put all the proprietary multimedia stuff on yourself, but that's pretty much a matter of installing one package from synaptic: ubuntu-restricted-extras.
Brown is ugly, so change the wallpaper. Honestly. Why people act like this is a showstopper beats me.
Last and far from least, put the panel where they're used to it, with the trash over there and the Start over here. And you're all set.
I set up laptops recently for my brother-in-law and his niece, both of them Windows users of the type who don't know a browser from a desktop. I figured I'd have no end of support, but that would still be better than the even bigger infinity of sorting their machines out after their daily virus infections.
In over six months, they've had no problems. None. There was one question: how to make the panel transparent because they were using different wallpaper.
They're not the type to use forums for questions, but if they were, the ubuntu forums are the most informative and friendliest to noobs of the lot.
I haven't got a laptop, but I did create a partition specifically to dual boot linux, and Ubuntu borked at my fakeraid stripe (well, it would have fucked everything up, but I was knowlegeable enough to stop it from trying to sort out my drives - I'm not claiming any expertise of linux here, I just knew from the partitioning it was trying to do that what it was planning would be a bad idea for my stripe).
I've since filled that partition with crap (1tb of storage should be enough for anyone my arse), otherwise I'd give OpenSuse a go - it supposely plays nicer with fakeraid, according to other posts here. At some point I'll grab another HD and do it, but it's not really a priority ATM. I do have my old win2k installation on a separate old fat IDE HD, still bootable, which I guess I could delete, but it'd be not too much use installing something that cannot see the stripe.
This has taken me about 3 minutes... Mephedrone FTW.
I've found that Mint is slowly trying to break away from its initial Ubuntu base. They use alot of the code, but they throw in enough customization that it feels better overall. I love it. I just grab the torrent and the windows installer from pendrivelinux.com and persistent install it on a flash drive in 10 minutes.
The list may never disappear. It might morph from "translation" into "Oh yeah,that's how I do X".
I'm exactly midline - passably solid user on Win XP, a few holistic instincts, and ... utterly new to Linux. I tried Ubuntu and had some bad experiences. Known problem in 6.06 Drake, random problems with one or other of the new builds etc.
The other distro that keeps popping up is that OpenSuse 11.2, and I finally took a whack at that. I got it about 60% working, with video, sound, flash, mp3's, Nvidia drivers, etc. I even cobbled up a Terminal Svc client to remote into work.
You want the distro to "sorta" look like Win XP because there's an exhaustion factor. It really is like learning a new forign language. It's nice to get a burger, beer, and rest stop before tackling the next 10 things.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
interesting you say that. I I remembered using gtkpod for copy audio file to play on my laptop . the process was so simple that the owner of the ipod wanted ubuntu and gtkpod on his computer.
You want to move the family to a new Linux Distro - Mint and Ubuntu are very nice, easy to install, and have a nice array of included/installed software. You can use dual boot with an old XP partition and show them how to load their old files.
If they want to just surf, watch videos, type papers, etc. then Ubuntu/Mint is a great choice.
If they want to play games on the PC, then Windows 7 is the best choice.
If they want a terrible headache-PITA, then OSX86 may be the ideal choice (it's not, lol).
If they want to add/subtract/multiply/divide, then a TI-36 Calculator is probably for them.
Give them the choice, and show them the +/- of each. Although, if you show them Compiz effects they'll be hooked like I was some 5 years ago.
In Soviet Russia, road forks you!
It's been a dream of mine to have a universal easy-to-use Linux instruction manual... e.g., exactly what you described: a "this is how I do this in Windows, can I do that in Linux" or a "This is the program I use in Windows, what do I use in Linux?"
The problem is, all the Linux distros are so different it seems they can't decide on a common way to do something. That's something Windows has as a major advantage. The Start menu is still the Start menu. Programs use Add/Remove Programs. Right clicking usually gives quite consistent results... etc.
Puppy is awesome with old hardware. My parents have used it successfully as well... the most difficult part is wireless connections, but the wizard has gotten better lately. It's still a little confusing if you don'mt know what you're doing (e.g., what's DHCP, etc).
Here's the simplest and best answer, and it worked for me. Not all Linux distro's work equally on different machines. If they did, there would be a need for so many specialty ones. Just download a variety live boots (that install) and try them out. In general, if they work from live boot, they will work when installed. BTW, my autistic daughter really resisted Linux when it was installed on her netbook (a step needed when Windows trashed itself just updating), but after a couple of weeks grumbling she really likes it now. So, expect some complaints anyways. Better yet, why not get these people involved in the selection process?
Come on, throw Ubuntu on and put Mac4Lin on it and tell them its a Mac. Ubuntu is definitely easy enough to use. Its what I use and I've switched several family members over to Ubuntu because they were worried about keylogger spyware and internet banking. Songbird is a wonderful Firefox based music player that is very close to iTunes (minus the store) that syncs with many portable devices including iPods. If you already converted them to Firefox and/or OpenOffice on Windows then the experience isn't much different on Ubuntu and makes the transition much easier.
>>> Their KDE 4 desktop is perhaps unmatched by any other distro
Perhaps? Does it have a cashew nut in the upper right corner?
I always use a linux mint live cd for a week, telling them that it is a little slow because they are running off of a cd rom, but this way they can reboot and still get to windows if it doesn't work out.
After a week they should know if they can use Linux or not.
Work bio at MMWD
You can have some fun with your project with bootable Linux distributions installed on USB memory sticks.
The thing Windows simply cannot do is not be the #1 Internet hacking target of all time. A Linux distro moderately tweaked for security is potentially quite robust.
The memory sticks cost $8.25 each for 2 gigabyte size and loading a Linux distribution is dead simple. The only problem is which distribution out of so many good ones?
The USB memory stick advantage is: Much less futzing with the hardware. Just plug it in, maybe twiddle the BIOS boot settings and go.
The disadvantage, so far for me is some USB Linux distros are intended as intermediates for a hard disk install, other distros are intended for troubleshooting the guest hardware. I am not clear yet on which one is best for long term use from the USB drive.
What I have been looking for is a Linux desktop distribution optimized like this:
Designed for the operating system to stay on the USB drive.
Has a browser, user capabilities, and file system already tuned for security.
Has a tripwire system to spot any operating system modifications.
Secure enough to connect directly to the internet without a home-router type front end, i.e. not hackable even by a determined intruder and not compromised by the legions of browser exploits.
Has ability to set up proprietary wireless driver devices without a temporary physical ethernet cable.
Runs flash and the problem video codecs, or allows you to add them as needed.
Will not let a Windows program erase files from the USB memory stick.
There is a utility program on sourceforge called unetbootin-linux that makes burning memory sticks a 3-click process.
So far here are my favorite bootable Linuxes: ... offers to set up a user file on the hard disk at boot time. Really neat graphical desktop.
Knoppix
Mint... as mentioned by others it is pretty neat.
Slax a bootable desktop version of the venerable and famous Slackware.
CentOS needed a live version downloaded manually by me. Comfortable, conservative and solid.
See? Your simple Ask Slashdot question really means you can become your own distribution architect/connoisseur in your spare time.
Because
[_] some of us aren't cheap - we can buy a second hard disk and devote it to an entire OS;
[_] we don't want to look at that "other OS" more than once every 6 months,
[X] that "other OS" has legal restrictions on virtualization.
[_] What is this "other OS" you speak of? I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
[_] In Soviet Russia, other OS boots YOU!
[X] I don't run "that other OS", you insensitive clod!
I am pretty sure that there are know restrictions on installing windows XP, or Windows 7 in a VM
I have been trying virtual machines since about 2000 and the first usable VM for desktop use that I have used was KVM on linux with qemu. I keep windows 2k with IE6, xp with IE7 and win7 with IE8 as VM images that I use for testing websites, I tend to forget that I can run other windows programs on them, because IE is the only application I have to use that I need windows for. As an aside, I find that the startup time for win2k in a VM is not that much slower than IE6 on wine, and much more reliable for multimedia sites.
Work bio at MMWD
If someone like that asks you for a certain software ("I need Photoshop, cause my cousin's neighbour's Aunt said it was great to resize pictures"), you can easily log in via ssh and install the foss equivalent
If there is a FOSS equivalent.
You have to understand your users very well if you plan on making choices for them and installing apps by remote control.
The clueless user who "spends 99% of the time in MSN, Skype or on facebook, and who watches vids on youtube" is a geek stereotype. The user can surprise you.
Your family doctor doesn't take family members as patients. It is stressful and corrupting.
You motives are suspect. It is hard to be objective. It is even more difficult for the family member to speak up, to fight back - to resist being taken in a direction he does not want to go.
I'll skip the "why do you even think it's a good idea?" routine, and get straight to the point.
In my opinion, a newbie Linux distro must have these things:
1. It MUST have decent graphics out of the box. This means proprietary ATI/NVidia drivers.
2. It MUST play MP3 out of the box.
3. It MUST play Flash out of the box.
None of points 1-3 should require any mucking with packages (much less third-party repositories).
With all that in mind, the only distro that provides it out of the box is Mint. Its "start menu" and overall layout is also more Windows-like, so it might look more familiar.
Also, when showing plain Ubuntu to people, the reaction to the default brown theme is almost overwhelmingly negative. Sure, you can show them how to change it, but first impressions count. Mint's green/black isn't perfect, IMO, but it's much better looking at the first glance.
It sure looks like Windows
If there is a FOSS equivalent.
I wrote it in another post, but I always ask first whether they are heavy gamers or absolutely NEED some very specific software (although it often turns out they don't need it as much as they don't know of any other choices)
More often than not, after asking people what kind of software they would need, I find out that there is FOSS that actually covers that, even though the person in question never found any windows software covering their special interest (of course, there is nearly always a windows alternative, but ti's often prohibitively expensive and very hard to get due to the speical interest factor.)
The geek stereotype has been quite accurate so far.
You motives are suspect.
Not at all. I'm upfront with my motives : I'm sick and tired of having to maintain windows installation that are slow/unstable because people installed the latest cracked version of Norton Antivirus which they got from their really trustfull neighbour who got it from some 15 year old their niece knows. I'm just lazy like that and I explain it, I also tell them of the drawbacks of using Linux ("no ... you won't be able to get software from your pupils at school. Same as if you were owning a Mac for that matter, just way less expensive and you DO get my support"). If they don't want it, no problem. I just stop helping them out when their desktop's background starts flashing in red and yellow to tell them that their computer is infected and that they need some shady av from a tinyurl site. Nothing suspect here : I'm lazy.
It is hard to be objective. It is even more difficult for the family member to speak up, to fight back - to resist being taken in a direction he does not want to go.
"DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
If you remote in you should have your own account with a strong password and only allow ssh to that user.
That avoids the whole issue.
A decent firewall or log monitoring that blocks ips based on failed login attempts would be a nice addition but not strictly needed if your own password is strong.
I'd agree if they are happy with Windows then leave them with Windows. The annoying part is most people aren't happy with Windows. They get infected, things break, etc but they just accept it because it's what they know and they expect it to suck. If you switch to a new product it has to be better than the original product to justify the effort. That means it not only has to not have the problems Windows does but it has to not have it's own issues. Linux isn't there and it isn't even going in the right direction. I used Linux as my primary desktop for more than a decade. Today I use OS X. OS X still has problems but they aren't nearly as annoying problems. I mostly use Windows in a virtual machine for the few apps that require Windows which is luckily not many (one really) since I'm not a gamer. I know a lot of geeks think the iPad sucks because it's more sandboxed than they like (which I don't see why they care since they can jailbreak it if they want to hack around) but I think it's exactly what the majority of users need in an OS. It's reasonable secure and easy to use and has a limited number of options to worry about. There are no directories full of thousands of mysterious files to get lost in. Only one app is visible at a time so no digging through a stack of windows for the right one. Mo pop unders. There is a single place to find and install apps. No dependency hell and no viruses. It's damn hard to get yourself in serious trouble. Complain if you like but that is the way the desktop experience needs to go and is going to go. When Linux desktop follows the example of the iPhone OS it will see more success. Android does to some extent, and is seeing success, but still offers to many choices and is somewhat awkward to use due to poor UI design. I'm curious to see when they fix these issues. Chrome OS might be interesting as it sounds like it is learning some of these lessons. Ubuntu Netbook Remix is probably the closest major distro I've seen to getting it right. Some apps don't work well with the design, it still feels like a beta, the UI needs some work, and some other Linux issues wiggle in but it's a step forward. The hard part is deciding to scrap existing apps and start from a new, more iPhone/Android sandboxed task oriented design. Enforce good policies with all new, or adapted, apps and clean up a bit and they could be on to something.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Ubuntu with xp theme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Gl-2wK444
Hi, I have "transitioned" my own family, in-law, and a few friends to GNU-Linux, including complete Noob. I had the best results with Ubuntu LTS, it's really an important point to stick with LTS, and Mandriva (be careful to stick with official repository, no "testing" or "backport", it would be nonsense for Noob).
As for Kubuntu, it used to be borderline crappy, but since 9.10 it's getting in good shape and it's now up to Ubuntu standards, I have good feelings for the coming LTS "Lucid Lynx" if the transition can wait until then.
Don't try to make it "windows-like", you will lose your time in stupid customisation, it will break on upgrades, and the user will always be looking back with the feeling that "it ain't the same". Linux is NOT Windows, that's why it's so much better, just go with it and don't try to sell it as a Windows placebo.
Other good choices are OpenSuse (I avoid it for "ethical" reasons, not technical ones), Debian Stable (but will take longer to configure to your needs). Lesser known distro are often to avoid for new users (less assistance, on-line resources, fewer packages...), one exception I used is Mepis.
Hi! I wanted to discuss this for a long time, so thank you for asking this question! I have been thinking a lot about the question, if Linux is ready for non-techy people. I came to the conclusion, that it is not. I lately started writing two wikis about installing Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Aspire1810TZ/Karmic and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBook4-1/Karmic Both the MB and the Aspire Netbook are very popular laptops. The size of the wikis tells you, how much tweaking you have to do, to get it half-descent to work (The mic of the netbook won't work anyway). After discussing the subject "documenting Linux installations" in the Ubuntu forums, I had the impression, that most people (or kids?) really think that a discussion thread in a forum serves as a installation documentation. What makes Linux not recommendable for non tech-interested people is for example, that when you have to compile drivers manually into the kernel (like for the Intel GMA 450 on the EeePC), your system will be broken after a kernel update. Also, the quality of Linux software is often not that good. This is true for both free and closed source software (Flash is lame, skype has a lot of problems with audio and video devices, the login screen after hibernating the system is buggy, ...)
In conclusion, I am not recommending Linux at all to the real world people.
Friendly regards, beauman
I just want them to stop cramming more stuff in the space (2+TB is plenty for most people) and instead split the disk into two smaller disks that fit inside, leaving the form factor unchanged, and are RAID-1. If one fails the drive should become read only and alert the user to go get a new drive and copy their files over. Many a heartache and headache would have been avoided if this small amount of redundancy had existed.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Menu at the top AND the bottom...?? Guaranteed to freak Windows users out.
Last time I did a "Linux for Windows users" installation I used SUSE. It was in a cybercafe (the most casual of users) and nobody seemed to have any problems.
Sorry, Ubuntu, but there it is...
Browser: FIrefox
Messenger: http://www.amsn-project.net/
Email: They're not using web-based email??
No sig today...
He wants to make it look like Windows because the users want a consistent computing experience no matter where they go. This is a good thing for non-slashdot types.
No sig today...
Reading between the lines: It doesn't sound like the OP has a good reason for making this switch, it smaks more of religion than necessity.
If the users are happy then let them be. You can probably do more good by teaching people not to run as admin than switching them to a different OS.
No sig today...
They will probably use it only at home, so nobody will care about copyright.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
Linux Mint is the way to go. It's like Ubuntu, but with all the stuff non-free stuff everyone ends up installing already bundled in.
Same layout as Windows, imports Windows settings, includes the non-free software that Windows users usually want - installs similar to Windows (except the user can play Solitaire while installing).
Point and click installs, solid single source support etc.
Forums are not useful to basic Windows users, and tend to create more problems than they solve.
I've tried Ubuntu (and Kubuntu), Mephis, Mint, PCLinux and others, as an OS for basic Windows users - and, unless I totally locked-down the machines... they broke them just as quick as they broke Windows.
Caveats: any *nix is ideal for Windows users - if you:- lock it down; and, are there by your phone 24x7 to help them before they, um, start learning (by their mistakes).
You get what you pay for. Generally, the more it costs the more value you get. With GNU you pay by learning (and contributing). So the paid version of Xandros will give Windows users a similar level of support to Windows. Paid support from SUSE and Red Hat is more business oriented than Xandros.
Malware isn't just a part of Windows. If the user is stupid enough to run malicious code with elevated privileges then their computer is going to turn into mush like you describe, regardless of the operating system.
Wrong
Hiding root inside a cryptic shell doesn't really count.
And - wrong again. Unless you are referring to UAC.
Also, bluescreens haven't been a real complaint against Windows since XP pre-SP1. Any lingering problems are due to drivers,
Oh really? Windows approved drivers??
and Linux has much nastier drivers than Windows.
You forgot to preface your post with the "Emotional Rant" tag...
Crashes are rare and Windows handles dying programs better than Linux.
Please direct me (us) to this new research that supports this claim.
Badly written X applications occasionally cause my X to freeze up
Does that somehow equate to a "crash"??
but I've never heard of such a thing on Windows.
Spend a lot of time supporting Vista do you? Is Aero your dancing bear of choice?
An imformative if somewhat stupid post - please don't be offended by my opinion. I am sure other Slashdotter readers are also keen to read your next post - "Week #2 - Learning Micro-computers".
Cheers, and "thanks for playing"
You don't need to run code with elevated privileges to allow malware to completely permeate into every aspect of the software you use or gain access to the data you deal with in Linux.
Uh, relevance?? Let me guess - if I dig deep enough I'll find some specious support for your claim.
Perhaps a theoretical exploit? Or, maybe one that has only happened a couple of times?? Neither of which would be relevant.
Cheers Dick.
I would respectfully disagree here. Desktop Linux is a moving target and will be for the foreseeable future. There are too many applications that are considered part of the operating system in the Linux world that have meaningful upgrades within that time frame, upgrades that even for a fairly basic end user are highly desirable, or even mandatory (at least to some users), such as newer browser packages. Highly technical users actually have it easier keeping on an LTS release (even though they are the least likely to do so), because they have the technical know-how to upgrade packages to versions that aren't part of the OS release (either via third-party repositories, repackaging the applications themselves, or via manual installation.) With this in mind, six months really does seem about right on the desktop, especially when you consider that for Ubuntu's regular desktop releases, there's an 18 month (N+2) support cycle in place. This gives enough time to delay upgrading or to even skip one release without losing vendor support. In practical terms, considering that upgrades generally won't happen the day of a new release, the average user will upgrade every 6-14 months - once or twice a year, and the upgrade itself is comparably painless to the processes that exist for Windows - even a major upgrade can be done in place, with the system still usable before, during, and after upgrading.
Pick two. Oh, wait...
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
I saw it on a website yesterday. Therefore the correct answer is a difficult to use, obtuse unix variant: Therefor, try a BSD variant. Tell em it runs VMWare (an OpenBSD if I'm interpreting some of the config files correctly.) How about PC BSD.
Seriously: go to Distrowatch.com Scroll down the right-hand side & look at the current page-hit ranking. Try the top ten & see how they work for you & offer to install one for your users. You will be the ONLY tech support for converted users & will have to train people who no nothing about computers how to google for themselves. Be aware of what you are getting into.
Of course, if he just stays with XP then there's no disruption or learning curve at all.
I fully agree.
Why force the change at all? It seems to me that many Linux people - especially those who just got it working and are still fresh in their enthusiasm - feel the need to convert everybody they know, whether they need it or not. More often than not it becomes some kind of crusade.
I've been happily using Linux since almost five years, never looking back. But I wanted that change. Shouldn't we leave the people who are happy with their Windows installation alone?
What's more, in this case, if staying with XP is not an option (which I doubt), Windows 7 is still more similar to Windows XP than any Linux distro is, no matter how much you try to make it look like Windows.
If a user is willing to run untrusted code, then it's trivial for it to read any data in the home directory (which is where most users keep confidential stuffI reckon) and report it back to a central location. Also trivial to have an application quietly start in the background whenever the user logs on. Also trivial to add a replacement for sudo and similar commands in the users path so the next time the user elevates his permissions, the malware can piggy-back off the back of it and install itself system wide. The relevance is that however effective the security model for Linux (or any OS is) if the user runs untrusted code with impunity, their data will be compromised and their machine is liable to become part of a botnet.
You don't have to dig deep at all to understand this, it's a pretty simple and self-evident that users are the weak-link in any and all computer security. Would be happy to demonstrate it if you're a moron though, where should I send the malware to?
give them FreeBSD and the handbook and tell them to actually do something instead of giving in to the needs of all these picky and pretentious computer users nowadays.
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
Sorry, I don't think I spelled that out in simple enough terms for you.
a> Knowledgeable computer guy like yourself suggests Linux because it's more secure
b> User mistakenly believes he is immunised against mal-ware
c> Lack of mal-ware infestations reinforce this belief in the user
d> In reality lack of mal-ware infestations are caused by lack of mal-ware targeted at Linux
e> Knowledgeable computer guys like yourself don't see this, so continue suggesting Linux use for security benefits
f> Mal-ware attacks of the type I describe above targetted at Linux increase proportionally to the number of Linux desktop users
g> Large swathes of non-technical Linux users, who neither have any form of Virus Protection or concerns about good security hygeine are ripe for the picking.
I love the Linux Distribution Chooser. I've recommended it to all my friends. It's great!
I continue to use Ubuntu, which for me has the best, most reliable installation and setup. I have several machines so I have tried other distros but stick with Ubuntu for my main machine. Suse 11.1 installed flawlessly. I tried 11.2 and it would not find my wireless - and I gave up. Mint now resides on the desktop - for the time being, but I still prefer Ubuntu.
Once I've converted folks, I've often put a sheet of paper next to the computer, listing equivalent options between Ubuntu and Windows. If you want to do something and can't figure out how immediately, look at the list. Eventually, that list will disappear from use. I always leave my cell phone number and a card listing the hours where I'm not otherwise occupied.
Can you post that list here? Sounds useful. Thanks.
Don't forget to include your cell phone number!
My vote goes to openSUSE. It is well integrated and has the best finish, because they make sure all packages work well together. And administration could not be simpler than with YaST. Soon there will be a secure web interface for YaST and you will be able to service these converted machines remotely, if you need to.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk?
Linux will never be windows nor should it be. Linux does take a little time to get it working. I've used SuSe since 6.1 and use it just for fun, for work and personal, I use Windows. Windows has it's own support, who do you call for Linux
The great thing about openSUSE is that with KDE it is super stable, great for programming, plays well with Windows (if that's what you want), and is easily upgradeable in place. I use it on a 1999 and 2001 machine on top of my current i7. Highly recommended. Check thegsblog.com for helpful links.
I agree. Novell turned evil when it sided with Microsoft against all linux distros other than SUSE. Novell must die, and SUSE supports need to understand they are playing with the Devil.
In choosing OSX or Windows you are spared recruitment into the geek's holy wars - and that is something worth thinking about.
I even told you that I use Xfce. I also have used Fluxbox and Awesome quite a bit. KDE4.4 is installed on my computer. Gnome is not.
I think that Gnome is the best choice for someone who doesn't want the computer to get in the way. This is because: ...") rather than conceptual ("the problem is this: ...").
-> as you say yourself, KDE gives you more options than the average user cares about and it DOES get in the way in that respect, because the advanced options are mixed in with the vital ones.
-> its popularity results in the most consistent and tested experience for the n00b.
-> If there IS a problem, and the user is on either Ubuntu or Fedora, the answer can be given in a way that is direct ("do this:
Sorry about the KDE3.5 comment, which caused people such grief. It was just an example, chosen specifically because of how ludicrous it would be to go for looks over substance...
Finally, you say "Only a fool speaks in absolutes."
Well, I did NOT say that Gnome is the best in itself. I specifically said it isn't. However, we have already established that you didn't read my post [correctly] and only an absolute idiot takes apart the arguments his adversary didn't make. Furthermore, the OP question was what the best setup for his friends/family would be, and there IS one correct answer to that question. Whether that is the one that I suggest is another matter, but I will suggest one which I believe to be right.
--
The first step is training them to use Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, and VLC on their Windows machine. After a month or so of smooth sailing....
After a month or so of smooth sailing with FOSS apps running under Windows, why do they need Linux?
More than anything, I believe this is a "look" problem. Non-techie users that are used to WindowsXP would never even KNOW they were using a Linux back end if it "looked" like XP. I remember reading on Slashdot about a Chinese company shipping out Ubuntu with a very good XP theme. That's all this is about folks. What it "Looks" like. I've dealt with XP users who move a different machine, also using XP, that might be set up a bit different. They inevitably freak out. My advice (which might be illegal, and I would never do myself and all that other stuff): find the XP lookalike theme for Ubuntu, and they WILL never know the difference.
Newbie? Tired of Windows security failings? Crave stability? Want better comprehensive and smoother upgrades? What more choice; for free? This is my guide: Prerequisites: 384MB of Ram or better; basically. Else see Puppy Linux to replace old 98 machines. You will also need to make a CD (or DVD if you have one). Else you can order a free one, and wait. Just be sure to "burn" the ".iso" file, as an image and not as a file. You might start with your carefully selected version of Mint. Such as the new KDE version. There less to set up and you can install and play with ease. This will show you, what you are missing. To cut to the chase, I still recommend www.Kubuntu.org with KDE (Yes, over Ubuntu unless you just prefer "Gnome", it's good too.) With Kubuntu you have to add a few things that Mint does, out of the box; but it's not hard. The trick is, you just go on the internet and find the quick commands and learn the "switches" to check off; that let you add what politics didn't allow Kubuntu to do automatically; out of the box. In the end and after you are familar with the system, Kubuntu will better branch out and do more tasks taht people want to get done. Now why would you add an extra step, even if easy. Because Kubuntu is better mold able to you exacting tasks and yet still represents taking care of the ground work, with it's progressive upgrades, better than anything else. It's also closer to the Windows UI, than anything else, right out of the box (Yet all that's customizable). Kubuntu, like all systems, has it's cons. I my opinion it's the less of all evils, including Windows and OS-X. You can go all-out and just run Kubuntu (to maintain just one thing) or you may dual boot with you old Windows. You can do both. Find a good on-line tutorial; on how to pre-partition your Windows system (after backing your stuff up) using something like a "gparted" CD.
HI, I recently switched a 83 year old ex-mother superior from, gag-me win vista to Ubuntu 9.10 with out a hitch, she immediately fell in love with the interface, the philosophy behind, menu location everything, only issue we had was getting her ipod to work, took me a day, only cause I know so little about ipod and apples hold on the hardware, anyway gtkpod works like a champ now and I have one very happy Lady using Ubuntu
Try out Linux Mint. It's a more user friendly version of Ubuntu (which is pretty user friendly itself). You can get skins for the GNOME desktop to make it look just like Windows 7 or XP, so your non techie buddies don't have to get used to a new desktop. Check out Gnome-look.org for themes.
Wrong.
Hiding root inside a cryptic shell is a good security practice to rely on, and brag about over Windows' user-friendly elevation prompts?
There's even such a thing as Linux approved drivers??
What. A lot of hardware like video cards and peripherals are supported only in Windows, and if Linux users want it they have to deal with second-best vendor drivers or reverse engineered drivers.
See my comment about X crashes
Yes, when X becomes unresponsive and I have to kill it with zap or alt-sysrq-k then that's a crash.
OK then, share your experience, if you managed to upgrade enough machines in your Windows ME environment to have any.
Windows has many significant flaws, but these aren't any of them.
The list is custom and generally written on-the-spot based on what the user says they do. However, there are some lists already made by others:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsApplicationsEquivalents
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromWindows
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
wow, somehow I've missed these O_o
Thanks for the links!
I wouldn't consider the mad hatter mad. Just reality impaired. He sure can make a mean cup of tea.
1. Flame the OP
2. ???
3. Profit
Currently, the iTunes Music Store is only accessible from Windows/MacOS-based Systems. As Apple seems to be open-source-friendly, we would really like to see a native Linux port of the iTunes application. I really think there are people who use Linux and who would like to buy songs or listen to DAAP-streams via iTunes, but right now there are no (or only insufficient) solutions for that. So, please port iTunes to Linux! Sincerely,
The Undersigned
...are my choices for usability from a Windows perspective. Everything just works. Caveat: Both use KDE 3.5 and the kopete instant messenger won't connect to yahoo, but Mepis has a very promising beta out with KDE 4 which does connect. Alternately, install pidgin from the PCLOS repositories. Linux Mint is another fine choice, but I'm partial to KDE.
Hi,
Many users who have come from Windows find KDE not to hard to learn. I have moved my mum and relatives over to KDE based systems and they are very happy with it. So far they are only on 3.5 but they find it nice and easy to use. I need to push one of them to 4.x at some point to see how well they handle it. Since moving them to Linux/KDE (on Kubuntu) they have called me for support only once.. rather than every few weeks with windows.
If you look closely you can still see the Teletubbies on that hill.
Wrong.
Hiding root inside a cryptic shell is a good security practice to rely on, and brag about over Windows' user-friendly elevation prompts?
There's even such a thing as Linux approved drivers??
What. A lot of hardware like video cards and peripherals are supported only in Windows, and if Linux users want it they have to deal with second-best vendor drivers or reverse engineered drivers.
See my comment about X crashes
Yes, when X becomes unresponsive and I have to kill it with zap or alt-sysrq-k then that's a crash.
OK then, share your experience, if you managed to upgrade enough machines in your Windows ME environment to have any.
Windows has many significant flaws, but these aren't any of them.
See the button marked "Quote Parent" - use it. That way your posts are less unintelligible.
Once more for the tired and emotional...
My post (where I quoted your response), with more detailed responses (for the overly sensitive). What - you're outraged at the description 'overly sensitive'? Well you can always add me to your "foes" list - again. Yawn.
Malware isn't just a part of Windows. If the user is stupid enough to run malicious code with elevated privileges then their computer is going to turn into mush like you describe, regardless of the operating system.
Wrong - read the original story - hint: it's about basic Windows users. Basic users tend to run Windows as Administrator... most Linux distribution actively prohibit that. What you "meant" is correct. What you wrote is - hyperbole, rhetoric, and a sophism.
Hiding root inside a cryptic shell doesn't really count.
And - wrong again. WTF are you 'trying' to say?? Unless you are referring to UAC.
Also, bluescreens haven't been a real complaint against Windows since XP pre-SP1. Any lingering problems are due to drivers,
Oh really? Windows approved drivers?? First sentence is the equivalent of saying "yes, no". Intentional or not - it is "weasel speak". The original article (did you even read it before you went off on a tangent?) is about moving people away from XP. A crash under Windows XP that generates an error report is not substantially different from a blue-screen - mere cosmetics. "lingering problems due to drivers" are something that I have seen a lot of - all due to Windows "certified" drivers. In a corporate environment we only use certified drivers in our SOEs.
and Linux has much nastier drivers than Windows.
You forgot to preface your post with the "Emotional Rant" tag... Did you mean - some Open Source drivers for hardware which the manufacturers have not released either the code or a Linux driver? "Nastier" is a poor choice of a description.... Relevance?? How many, how often? Given that Linuxs support a much wider range and history of hardware of than Windows (386dx+).
Crashes are rare and Windows handles dying programs better than Linux.
Please direct me (us) to this new research that supports this claim. Two hyperbolic statements for the price of one!
Badly written X applications occasionally cause my X to freeze up
Does tha
Most of the really helpful people I saw around the forums when I was using Ubuntu were from other distros (Arch, in particular, seemed to have a lot of evangelists). I think that they just got worn out dealing with people asking the same questions over and over and went back to their own forums.
have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
Sorry, I don't think I spelled that out in simple enough terms for you.
Clearly you misunderstand the processes involved in "thinking" - though you appear (having read all your previous posts) to have fully embraced "simple". Moving along - did you read the original posters question? Or did you just jump in so that you could threaten to "demonstrate" how Linux is insecure - if you can just find someone dumber than yourself and get them to run malware. Perhaps you think that is original.
a> Knowledgeable computer guy like yourself suggests Linux because it's more secure
I'll ignore the 4chan speak - I did not suggest Linux (for any reason). RTF original question - hint: it's at the top of the page.
b> User mistakenly believes he is immunised against mal-ware
Oh - a "scenario"... plucked from where?? In this case an "ass-umption".
c> Lack of mal-ware infestations reinforce this belief in the user
blah blah
d> In reality lack of mal-ware infestations are caused by lack of mal-ware targeted at Linux
apropos of... what?
e> Knowledgeable computer guys like yourself don't see this, so continue suggesting Linux use for security benefits
Don't let reality get in the way of your righteous diatribe. Please show me where I suggested anything of the sort.
In response to the original question (have your read it yet? or did your lips get sore?) I "answered" Xandros.
f> Mal-ware attacks of the type I describe above targetted at Linux increase proportionally to the number of Linux desktop users
Specious, at best.
g> Large swathes of non-technical Linux users, who neither have any form of Virus Protection or concerns about good security hygeine are ripe for the picking.
If, if, if. if. Are you a professional pedant?
If a user is willing to run untrusted code, then it's trivial for it to read any data in the home directory (which is where most users keep confidential stuffI reckon) and report it back to a central location. Also trivial to have an application quietly start in the background whenever the user logs on. Also trivial to add a replacement for sudo and similar commands in the users path so the next time the user elevates his permissions, the malware can piggy-back off the back of it and install itself system wide. The relevance is that however effective the security model for Linux (or any OS is) if the user runs untrusted code with impunity, their data will be compromised and their machine is liable to become part of a botnet.
You don't have to dig deep at all to understand this, it's a pretty simple and self-evident that users are the weak-link in any and all computer security.
Perhaps you could invent a name for this? PEBCAK??
Would be happy to demonstrate it if you're a moron though, where should I send the malware to?
Why certainly - try my homepage.
Mint is your hands-down best out-of-the-box choice. The reason is simple -- it comes with a Flash player already installed.
So, by this definition, any other distribution that ships flash player would also be "hands-down best out-of-the-box"?
However, I wonder, does Mint have a license for redistribution of Flash Player? According the the Adobe Flash Player EULA, you may not re-distribute without a license. Nowhere on the Mint site can I find any details about whether Mint has such a license.
As far as I know, Mandriva does have a license, which is why they include Flash on One and Powerpack distributions (but not "Free", which is composed only of free software, and not in the non-free online repo ... apparently this is not allowed by the license terms they got from Adobe), so I guess that would make Mandriva "hands-down best out-of-the-box", but then again, I already knew that ...
(BTW, apparently Adobe isn't allowing redistribution of the the Flash 10 alpha - which is desirable for x86_64 systems)
Now, according to the Mint site, Mint doesn't include proprietary drivers, and I wonder how it can then be the best out-of-the-box distro.
What Linux distributions need is a reliable way of pre-checking which hardware items are and aren't supported. It's a waste of time going through the installation process and then finding that you can't print, scan, use a USB device unless it was connected at boot, or even middle-click to close a tab in Firefox, ffs.
You might want to consider adding Mandriva to that list. OOTB, a number of different browsers can be ready for YouTube, Flickr, etc. Not to mention games like Spring, Second Life, Quake 3, and PySol. Kopete or Pidgin for IM. HP printer drivers, including for networked printers -- even supporting the scanners on multi-function devices through JetDirect connections. Burning software, torrent software, graphics software, and many of those other things moderately skilled PC users have come to expect just work out of the box on several distros. Mandriva is one of those.
Whoah, you know I replied to a guy saying:
"If the user is stupid enough to run malicious code with elevated privileges then their computer is going to turn into mush like you describe, regardless of the operating system."
By saying:
"You don't need to run code with elevated privileges to allow malware to completely permeate into every aspect of the software you use or gain access to the data you deal with in Linux."
What the guy said is literally correct (though you can dispute the relevance in Linux systems where it is not trivial to elevate your privileges glibly), but doesn't realise that running *any* malicious code is enough to seriously undermine all the data you keep readable in your home directory, and liable to cause malicious software to start unnoticed whenever that user account is logged into (doesn't matter if it's run with elevated privileges or not). In any discussion around the relative security of desktop OS's for non-technical users, the fact that the users themselves are the biggest security issue should always be at the forefront of everyone's minds.
That's really the start and end of it. The original question doesn't even mention the relative security merits of one OS over another, so why even bring it up in a section of the conversation it spawned which does?
I spend one sentence asserting that users accidentally running malicious code are liable to severe security lapses regardless of the security context the code is run in - in response to someone who implied that you must run code with elevated privileges to experience security issues - and you jump back questioning it's relevance (I assume to the original post, as questioning it's relevance to *the comment I replied to* would be insane), assuming I'm talking about an obscure exploit rather than overly-trusting users, and a cheap shot about my name. Would you have been happier if I didn't mention Linux? Sorry, it was at the forefront of my mind given the context here.
Seriously, I have to go on the assumption you don't understand the importance of context (difficulty understanding that a comment must be relevant to what it is replying to, not necessarily the original /. post) and are a prick (ref. ad hominem). As always when judging someone harshly, happy to be proved wrong.
dynamic disks is a disk partitioning scheme that is incompatible with regular disk partitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_disk
IOW: Don't use them unless you absolutely need a certain feature.
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
Fucking idiot fanbois.
Wrong
It's not wrong. Ever heard of the dancing pigs problem? It doesn't matter how secure an os is if you can trick the user into running rm -rf / as root.
And - wrong again. Unless you are referring to UAC.
NO, it's not wrong. See above. UAC is nothing special here.
Oh really? Windows approved drivers??
Why are you even nitpicking this? NO, most likely not windows approved drivers.
You forgot to preface your post with the "Emotional Rant" tag...
Or, you know, as accurate.
Its an inevitability of having to reverse engineer the hardware, it results in less thoroughly tested code with less functionality. Fact.
Please direct me (us) to this new research that supports this claim.
New research? No. Just the experience of people who have experience with both platforms and dont have an emotional attachment to a particular one.
Does that somehow equate to a "crash"??
Well, DUH.
Spend a lot of time supporting Vista do you? Is Aero your dancing bear of choice?
That doesn't even fucking make sense.
An imformative if somewhat stupid post - please don't be offended by my opinion. I am sure other Slashdotter readers are also keen to read your next post - "Week #2 - Learning Micro-computers".
Cheers, and "thanks for playing"
Stop spreading FUD you damn useless zealot.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Ubuntu is normally the go to distro. However recently Linux mint (very much ubuntu/debian based) has surfaced as a good user friendly OS. That being said, there is a little known flavor called Zorin OS, which is targeted for the big OS move from Windows to Linux. Happy hunting.
Both my mum, dad, sister, girlfriend, mother in law, girlfriends granddad(!) are using Ubuntu now. This is what I did.
First let them use Firefox and Thunderbird (if they use POP/IMAP mail) and maybe OpenOffice.org for some time. This will give them a hands on experience with alternatives to MS software. For most of the users the introduction to Firefox was a blast. They quickly noticed a much better web experience compared to Internet Explorer.
Then I offered them to try Ubuntu LTS. Installed it on a small partition on the disk, so they had dual boot. Then I told them to use Ubuntu for all their web surfing needs, etc. and only start up Windows, if they had to do something that would not work in Ubuntu. I also made them write down what didn't work, and we would look at it next time I visited.
Some of the users soon just stopped ever booting in to Windows.
So here is the status:
* mum: using Ubuntu LTS, but still has dual boot to Windows Vista because of a special application she needs at work.
* dad: only using Ubuntu LTS. I have had one support question about how to find imported pictures from a digital camera.
* sister: only using Ubuntu 9.10, but recently she needed a Windows application for school, so I installed Windows XP in VirtualBox. Apart from installing Win XP in Virtual Box, i have not had any support questions for over a year.
* girlfriend: only uses Ubuntu 9.10. I never have any support questions.
* mother in law: using Ubuntu LTS, I do not have any support questions. She primarily uses Firefox and OpenOffice. It Just Works for her.
* girlfriends granddad(!): Using Xubuntu LTS. Font size has been increased a bit from the default. I had one question about how to install a very old printer. Turns out the printer did not work on the computer (did not have parallel port), so he got a new printer.
thomasdamgaard.dk.
I've been using TurboTax online version for a few years now in Linux with no issues, using Firefox.
The only issue i had was a few years ago, when TurboTax was only supporting FF2 when FF3 had come out, so my FF3 was determined to be an "Unsupported" browser.
But for the last 2 or 3 years it's been fine with both Gentoo and Ubuntu.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel