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Valve: Linux Better Than Windows 8 for Gaming
dartttt writes "In a presentation at Ubuntu Developer Summit currently going on in Denmark, Drew Bliss from Valve said that Linux is more viable than Windows 8 for gaming. Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore and Linux has everything they need: good OpenGL, pulseaudio, OpenAL and input support."
post!
He's just angry that Windows Marketplace is going to cut into his donut funds.
I've read alot about companies saying win8 is bad for gaming yet very few are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually produce linux native games (or at least games that work perfectly well under wine). Couple that with the lack of installed userbase with capable hardware and the commercial aspects of linux don't really stack up. As much as I'd love to run mint full time its stuck on its vm currently or on underpowered hardware (where linux really shines as a desktop making old/low powered hardware useable!) neither of which are gaming capable.
The only thing tying a lot of people (myself included) to Windows is gaming. With how much I hate the new ModernUI, I've been taking another look at going back to Linux as a main O/S.
Tell ya what. You release your game for Linux, and I'll release mine for Windows 8. Whoever sells more gets the other guy's revenue? Feel up for that?
But gaming is the one thing still tying me to Windows.
bullshit.
...but Windows 9 might well not be. Valve has seen the writing on the wall and is hedging its bets. Personally, if Windows 9 does end up being a walled garden, I can see desktop Linux or OS X (assuming it remains open) getting popular with developers awfully fast.
"We're deeply upset that Microsoft is moving into our turf".
Look, I love Linux. It's fantastic at a lot of things. But its not one operating system. That's a good thing for a lot of things (No, Microsoft, I don't think my AD server should have the same interface as a tablet...), but it still makes it a pain in the ass for game developers.
This is just Valve being pissed off that they won't be able to take a cut of game sales forever.
What I fear is that Valve will dive deep into Linux, and then suddenly realize that supporting software like steam and games on Linux may be a bit more challenging than they thought it would.
The myriad hardware types out there with myriad sets of less-than-optimal drivers might present myriad problems, even if Valve does master the video-card/opengl end of things. I know I get vastly different experiences with Ubuntu depending on if I install it on one desktop versus another versus my laptop. They all have their own sets of issues, and none of them are remotely perfect.
This whole affair with valve just reminds me of some computer user adopting a new platform with vim and vigor...and then realizing it's not all it's cracked up to be a few weeks or months later. I myself did this with mac, but it took a couple years for me to come to my senses, unfortunately.
There are MANY legitimate reasons why Linux on the desktop has not taken off. I fear that Valve just hasn't encountered the right set of those reasons yet.
I think the reason is because Windows 8 to me seems more like a tablet OS instead of a PC OS. But i would love to see a push towards Linux as the new platform for gaming. But it would require more big names to push that direction also as Valve seems to be pushing.
Windows 8 isn't had for gaming, it's just bad for Valve. Vale has wanted Steam to be a general App Store for a long while, and if regular plebes start using the Windows Marketplace, they'll lose that battle before they even begin. Valve's just concerned with their potential market being at risk.
I'm getting sick of Windows, sick of its crap, sick of Microsoft ditching pros for complete morons and non-business uses almost entirely.
Unless I absolutely have to get Windows WhateverNextCrap version, Windows XP will remain the last one I will use.
Vista is terrible, 7 is literally Vista with less features and slightly faster, 8 is a tablet OS thrown on top of 7 and slightly faster, oh did I mention less features and even more obtuse to use as well?
I've used Linux on and off over the years, and I am a programmer so any possible missing features will be pretty trivial to port over.
Gaming is pretty much the only reason I remain, and laze.
I'm making a new computer now. What becomes the main OS is another question.
I know Linux tends to have noticeably faster graphics in games, and usually better speeds overall because memory.
One day.
Linux has everything they need: good OpenGL, pulseaudio, OpenAL and input support
I think it's always been true that there have been alternatives to DOS and Windows that were superior based on technology and price.
>> Linux has everything they need
except driver support from nvidia
Steam works the same in Windows 8 as in Windows 7 from what I've seen thus far. There is no way most gamers would buy a game in the Microsoft app store if the same game was available on Steam. Seems like Valve is more concerned about the competition from the Microsoft App Store than about how open Windows 8 as an O/S is.
If they move to Linux they will fail. I myself am a gamer and all my friends who also game aren't techies. There is no way in hell they will be installing Linux on their computers.
If they focus their product dev to Linux it will sink the company.
Just so long as you don't have an nVidia, AMD, or intel graphics card.
Or want sound that's in sync and in more than 2 channels.
And as long as you don't need HD full screen video cutscenes.
I guess if you consider editting .conf files to be a game, it's the best gaming platform out there.
Ubuntu has an app store too, as does OSX, so I guess those aren't open platforms either.
Good luck to you, Valve! One day we'll look back and remember when you were relevant, sort of.
Unless I am mistaken, you can install apps on Windows 8 outside of the app store - how is this closed?
It seems that Valve is just bitching about competition in the 'one-stop-download-shop' market. Unless MS prevent valve from installing Steam on Windows 8, I can't see this being anything else.
Valve is one of the most influential companies in the gaming world. If they speak people will listen.
This single statement will cause thousands of gamers to check out Linux.
This is a market that is willing to spend hundreds of dollars and hours of tweaking to gain a few percent more performance. Any rumour about a better system will cause a flood of gamers that want to be the first to get the advantage.
Maybe only Windows 8 is better on Windows 8 than on Linux.
Maybe Unless specifically designed to be the other way around.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Now the interesting question is if Valve will release a standardized system specs and the a steam linux release creating a de facto "Valve Box".
The idea that Windows 8 is bad for gaming is plain bullshit, period.
In this case, Valve's agenda is the lesser of two evils. Either MS gets their way and Linux desktops continue with the relatively sparse gaming library compared to Windows systems, or Valve gets their way and at least Linux gets a lot of the titles that were formerly Windows-only.
I'd rather a viable company scheme be one that operates within the structure of the general structure of Linux based desktops than requiring Windows or wine. Purists can still run their desktop with the same (or even better) selection of truly free software, and the rest of us can use a free desktop without compromising or dual boot to get at a few titles we really would enjoy.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
The problem with Windows 8 is that it isn't the best choice for anything anymore. Want to run old Windows apps? Want to run old games? Want to develop new games (as in TFA)? Want to run current Windows apps? Want a tested, stable Windows platform? Want a minimal hardware Windows platform? Whatever your question, there are better alternatives than Windows 8. Microsoft has really dug themselves into a deep hole at the moment...and the implications for the future are breathtaking.
The heading is somewhat misleading. I think that this should be clarified that Linux provides a better environment for game development. Linux has not actually hit that tipping point of having more available games.
http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
Steam is already an effective and popular app store on Windows. And they hope to become the proprietary app store on Linux. That's why Valve is so dead against Windows 8 - Microsoft could take away their status as the app store.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Roll another Debian-a-like, tailor it to games, market it through Steam to Windows users and say "Why update to Windows 8? Here's a free OS. Live boot it and see if you like it."
Disclaimer: the author is tired of keeping a creaking XP partition going just for Steam, and would bite their hand off to get in on a beta and help out.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm running windows 8 right now with with your piece of shit bloatware steam running constantly in the background. If that's not an open platform maybe I don't understand what an open platform is. Just because MS has a program exactly like your program, but not as intrusive, you have to go around name calling? I'm not a fan of the Win8 market program, and I'll most likely never use it, but that doesn't "close" the OS. The OS works just like every other windows OS. You can install still anything you like on it.
Oh good! It's the Year Of The Linux Desktop all over again!
Or rather, here we see Valve trashing Windows 8 but not genuinely because it's worse than Windows 7 for games (because it's not, as it basically supports everything Windows 7 did) - but because it challenges Steam's revenue stream. Windows 8 has it's own app deployment store which could theoretically challenge Steam as a method for emptying people's bank accounts. That's what this is about - money, not platforms and how good they are or aren't. In any case, Windows 8 is no more open or closed than Windows 7 - there's nothing seeming to stop me running Steam on my copy, anyway.
Windows has inertia and incumbency behind it and this cannot be underestimated. Linux has, let's be generous and say a few million gamers, World Wide, absolute tops (wikipedia seems to think there's about 13 million Ubuntu installs, not all of which are game rigs by a long shot - Windows has like 1.5 billion installed systems). Which platform are gaming companies going to code for, first, do you think? *Even* if Valve makes games for Linux (and they probably will), what's the bet they will make more money on Windows for the next generation or two *at least* (if not forever - unless we include Android in the Linux camp). If you don't include mobile OSs and stick to desktops, Windows remains at about 92% of the install base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Usage_share).
Not that I particularly care which platform "wins" - if games start coming out on Linux, I will happily use Linux to play the games I play (which admittedly, isn't a lot). I just cannot see the hundreds of millions of kid gamers out there switching to Linux on their gaming rigs (some of which are shared family PCs) and losing their back catalogue of games. A lot of these guys aren't as computer literate / adventurous as they like to think they are.
One of the things I'm worried about is that Windows has traditionally had better backwards compatibility, from the point of view that you may well want to fire them up again in a decade or so. For instance, Rune (Lokisoft) and RTCW (Id/Raven) from 10 years ago are a pain to make work and in the case of Rune do very odd things like the trees being bent over or upside-down.
On the other hand, I had a far easier time making Morrowind, SS2 and even Thief 2 run inside WINE than I did in Windows.
I get to add another OS to my MacBook. It was so difficult to find games worth playing on OSX that I installed Win7 with bootcamp. Now I'll feel morally obliged to install Linux too.
Interesting that Windows 7 continues to be the most stable operating system on my early 2012 MBP since I upgraded OSX to Mountain Lion. I wonder if I'll have as much luck with a Linux install? I wish them every luck, and will certainly show my support as I do my best to stay away from awful walled gardens, but it seems like a big ask compatibility-wise for Steam, which on both OSX and Win7 is already a programme with multiple bugs and infuriating crashing habits in my experience.
There's no good gaming APIs to use. Where is the DirectX equivalent?
If you think developers are going to spend the resources to learn entirely new set of APIs in a completely unfamiliar environment, then you need to get out of your basement more. The guys from Valve need not worry about the Windows app store, because the only thing in there will be casual games that run on ARM. Your shit has to run on ARM (WindowsRT) to get in the app store. That excludes like 99% of Steam games.
So where will I go for my non-casual x86 games on my Windows 8 box? Steam. The Windows 8 app store and Steam are completely different gaming markets. Valve needs to stop getting all the nerds' hopes up acting like all the great games are going to get ported to Linux. Most of their shit will just run Win32 in wine or whatever you call your Win32 subsystem these days. Who knows how fucking many forks and versions and different recursive acronyms of that shit you have now. It's sad, really. Like a guy showing up with a ram mascot head at a Microsoft product launch.
My guess is they will do exactly that, plus in addition setting up dual boot linux from steam and probably also an OpenGL-based API for developers as a replacement for DirectX. Whether they succeed depends on how many developers they can move away from DirectX.
A console could also succeed right now (before PS4 and next XBox come out), but its very risky business.
If you want to make tons of money, just ship another AAA game.
Windows 8 people will buy it and they will pay for it whether it is on Steam, Xbox live, Windows Store, what have you.
Put your resources and talent where it belongs.
Half-life was the bees knees way back when. I remember when the first head crab jumped out at me. almost shat meself, me did.
HL2 was rip-roarin fun.
HL episodes were like dancing naked in a filed of posies.
Focus all of your resources on HL3. Make it epic. Why are you still reading this, Valve? Off with you, then...
-badford
Everything I have heard is that win8 desktop mode will run programs the same way that win7 does. So....steam will run and games will run same as they always have. It SEEMS (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the only large change is that Microsoft is introducing a competing digital store for games. So it sounds like win8 isn't bad for gaming as much as it could be bad for Valve since they will now have competition. That opens a whole new issue: Is it unethical / Illegal for Microsoft to support their own store over valve's store? But isn't that the current state of macOS, which Valve is currently moving into?
If only they had realized that everyone uses mice and they're faster than touchscreens.
I agree with you that a mouse is superior to a capacitive multitouch screen for some applications, such as those requiring pixel precision. But how is, say, zooming or rotating faster on a mouse than on a capacitive multitouch screen that can use two-finger gestures?
Seriously, learn the shortcuts.
I was as upset about the loss of the start button as anyone, but having come across a list of the new windows key shortcuts, I'm now able to get things done faster than ever. The final version of Windows 8 is a 10000x better than that buggy POS preview edition.
Steam is full of crap as far as Windows vs. Linux goes for gaming. They're just shooting their mouths off like Acer did because they're afraid of any competition. I've got Steam and all my games installed on both my pc and notebook on the Windows 8 desktop and they run just as well, if not quicker now than they did under Windows 7. It wouldn't take Steam more than half an hour to turn their storefront into an "app" just so they're searchable in the marketplace. PC gamers aren't so stupid that we can't find the desktop or the site that sells PC games.
If Valve wants to invest in making Linux a more consistent experience for millions of different hardware configurations with a slick interface, that's super ! I don't think they can do that, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
- tensions in our lives that are attacking our minds, unite themselves together to make our consciousness blind - op'ivy
By 2016, Android will outsell windows.
Provided Microsoft's and Apple's patent lawyers don't kill it first. GNU/Linux with X11 has been around longer than Android, long enough to trigger laches (estoppel on grounds that a patent holder has delayed legal action specifically to harm the alleged infringer), and it implements an API that's been around long enough for patents on many of its core concepts to have expired.
And you need to recompile the kernel for each game you install!!!!!!!
The last time this happened Microsoft was accused of being a monopoly, of tying, and managed to secure 5 nice years of growth-stunting dominance with IE6.
With the highly glaring exception of WinRT applications, which must come from Microsoft's store.
I see all the Microsoft fans who are terrified at the thought that Linux could become a viable platform for gaming and draw users away from Windows are here, defending Windows 8 and Microsoft's future roadmap (and their leverage of their monopoly) from its detractors.
The only thing Steam needs a hard drive for is storing cached game data, savegames, and profile data cache.
There's no reason why they couldn't just set up a "SteamOS" LiveCD to mount and troll all attached storage for their Steam cache. It shouldn't matter if it's on NTFS (and thus available from Windows as well) or ext4 or zfs for that matter.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Steam does not make games "run in Linux". Steam does not offer an API to construct games upon. Steam is just front end DRM for launching games that can be easily installed without steam. There's nothing magical about Steam that's going to make major publishers all of a sudden start supporting Linux. If dozens of actual game creators started supporting Linux, that might be a story. It seems to me that all Valve has is their tired "source" engine games, and source is nothing but a modified Quake 2 engine. Quake 2! Seriously? So I guess we can all play L4D7, TF Comicon edition and Half Life 2 on Linux, great. But if you want to play the latest ID engine, you had better ask ID what platform they're going to support, because Steam has nothing to do with it.
It's kinda odd this hasn't been explicitly said yet. But while Linux has everything for developing games, what it DOESN'T have is a massive library of games to play on it. As opposed to Windows, which does. Every windows gamer out there owns a pile of games that only runs on windows. More than likely, those simply won't run on Linux. And historically, gaming meant Windows. Now, Windows might not have as big of a library as you might think. A LOT of older games need to be run in DosBox or other emulation, which is frankly above the heads of most gamers. Same goes with Wine. Linux has a much larger library of games if you include Wine, but that's really only an option to geeks. Last I saw, it takes a lot of tweaking and fiddling. (And personally, fuck the non-geeks. I'm really not that motivated to help gamers who won't help themselves.)
If Valve is serious about pushing games on Linux, they need to make some serious contributions to the usability of Wine for gaming. Even though every hour played on Wine is an hour people aren't paying Valve. Which, come on, companies don't do that.
They also need to lay down the law and state that they (and their LinuxSteam games) only care about a limited set of hardware. With new hardware being added as it comes out. That would help a lot.
First, Windows 8 is just as open as Windows 7. The only difference this time is that it ships with a built-in competitor to Valve's Steam platform.
Second, while Linux gaming may or may not be as good as PC gaming, Valve alone isn't going to make up the market, and they will continue to support Windows regardless. They have only a handful of games nowadays; Counterstrike, DOTA 2, Team Fortress, Portal, and Half Life (though everybody has already beaten those).
They have to convince everybody else to do the same thing. So they need to get Call of Duty, Battlefield, and all the other big franchise games to port to Linux. This likely won't happen unless they see a monetary gain in doing so. The only company that truly benefits is Valve, because of their platform. Porting to Linux is their hedge against the MS App Store. While I could see that down the road in Windows 9 or 10 that the app store becomes the primary way to deliver apps, most developers are going to embrace that model. The developers don't make money on the distribution, unless they are a distribution platform like Valve. What EA has done with Origin is more a DRM scheme than a distribution model, and I don't think they will mind switching.
Ultimately while Valve and I'm sure a few other major developers will hate this model change, a lot of people are going to embrace it, and be successful with it as well. You don't think Angry Birds did so well because it was a Triple A title distributed through Steam, do you? It was an indie title distributed through the Apple App Store. And with the dev tools for MS software being pretty easy to use and learn, I think we will see some more success stories of people adopting the "new way" of doing things vis a vis MS's OSes.
And if they don't.... we'll see what the future holds. But Valve isn't a big enough player to corner this market on their own, and right now, there's no indication of any open support for them to make this move either.
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
So why am I getting cognitive dissonance about the tune that John Carmack sings these days? Judging from the repeated success of Humble Bundle on Linux and Valve's credible statements, it would seem that, to put it bluntly, than John is wrong. So what's up? Intentionally wrong or inadvertently wrong? If inadvertently wrong, maybe the effect John detects is, not much interest from Linux gamers in yet another marginally playable Quake sequel. If intentionally wrong then what's up? Is John a closet Apple fan?
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
You've created a false dichotomy. There are a lot more choices than Windows and Linux. Even if Windows fails (no evidence it will other than Gabe's wishful thinking) it doesn't mean Linux will then succeed. Developers might just go to all-console.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
In a presentation at Ubuntu Developer Summit currently going on in Denmark,
Wake me when he says the same things at a Windows conference. Until then, I'll file it under "saying what your audience wants to hear".
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Apparently, the special cases of maps and image manipulation are common enough that touch screen fans consider them important. If image manipulation were not common on a PC, why would there be GNU Image Manipulation Program, Inkscape, Adobe Lightroom, and the entire Adobe Creative Suite?
With the highly glaring exception of WinRT applications, which must come from Microsoft's store.
WinRT is a tablet-OS. Windows 8 is as open and free as Windows 7 ever was.
I've been running the windows 8 consumer preview for a while now. Every application that I used on windows 7 is working just fine.
From my point of view, Windows 8 is just as open as the last decade of Windows OSes. I think the "windows store only" nature of Windows RT is being abused to imply that Windows 8 will not run your old applications. Windows 8 and Windows RT have the same code base but are separate products.
As of now, I prefer windows because of the choice it offers. On Windows I can run FOSS or I can buy an application. Either way, I can run most of the software on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and YES, Windows 8.
If Microsoft chooses to make the next installment of Windows a walled garden and only support the new application format, that choice will disappear. At that point one of the main benefits of running "windows" would be gone. Apple and Linux would be much easier to consider, because the loss of the application library has already occurred. Might as well try it out.
The right gaming portal in the wrong OS can make all the difffffference in the world...
Yeah, more fucking distros, that's all we need. Please no.
... the man who's the epitomy of taking away gamers rights and pusher of permission based software and closed platforms, dislikes Microsoft copying his business model. If anything the game industry is like the pot calling the kettle black. They and apple are the ones who first pushed the model (MMO's, free2play, steam DRM crapware).
Given that I need pixel perfect precision, why won't I just zoom with the scroll wheel on the mouse and keep my hand comfortably rested on the desk, instead of lifting it all the way up (and I got 3 30inch monitors) to touch my screen, then wipe it off finger marks and rest it again on the mouse?
As for rotating... you might be amazed at how often I have felt no need or desire to rotate anything whatsoever on a computer screen. I have however felt the need to hit small links, select text quickly and easily and right-click on stuff.
Please, can one of the people with a touch screen and a screen setup that is NOT on laptop heights but work-safety recommended heights with large multiple monitors (and there are no affordable large resolution touch screens or even "oh my god I could buy a car for that" ones) tell me how holding my hand above eye height for input is easier, faster and more comfortable?
I will even accept that lots of smudges on your screen might have some kind of desirability to some.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
And as long as you don't need HD full screen video cutscenes.
For one thing, since when does 1080p video not work on a PC? I thought even YouTube got that to work. For another, a lot of games especially from Valve do cut scenes with the game engine, so if the game works in 1080p, so do the cut scenes.
Ubuntu has an app store too
Unlike Windows RT and the WinRT environment of Windows 8, Ubuntu does not prohibit home users from permanently adding third-party PPAs.
Last time I checked, IE6 was the reason people stopped using IE. It's was never a monopoly, and it should have never been even accused of being one. I'm curious, without IEx how you would even go about getting another browser? Thank goodness it's on there or how would you ever even replace it!
Well, that's just false. You don't have to use the app store to install a WinRT program. So either you're ignorant or a liar. There is no third option.
You keep saying in other posts that WinRT will replace Win32. If you have some sort of citation that proves that Win32 will be phased out, I'd love to see it. But knowing it doesn't exist, please stop stating it as if it was a well known fact. Since Win32 isn't going anywhere I don't know how you get off contradicting me that Win8 isn't an open platform. It's not like game publishers are going to start using WinRT as a replacement for Win32. And even if they did, it's still an open platform.
The most important thing that this article just glosses over is the fact that Steam isn't a game API. It doesn't help run games in any way on Linux. The people responible for creating the game must make the game work in Linux. Steam is nothing but a DRMed front end launcher. I would much rather launch my games by running the game's executable and not have some TSR bloatware that acts as some sort of shortcut to the game executable.
Gaming companies need to release titles for Linux, and this will greatly help. The problem is, Windows is still the most popular OS even though Linux can do a lot of things better. More market share is where the software will be developed for now. The Wine project has made many milestones which have helped closed this gap of Windows & Linux game titles. Let's hope it continues this way.
My knee-jerk reaction to that would be 'yeah, right, MS isn't that dumb'
What about "Microsoft is dumb enough to have it already be the case on ARM"? The only applications that run in the desktop part of Windows RT are IE and Office.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
The thing I hated about Linux Desktop, is that the lesser things did not work. Wifi didn't work for quite a long time, I never expected sound to work, printing was troublesome, and I never tried to get webcams or scanners to work. Linux was great for programming. For all that extraneous stuff, let Windows take care of it.
That is why when I installed steam recently for the first time, I encountered two errors, both with extensive user provided workarounds involving rebooting in special mode to get around rights issues. On perfectly normal PC with perfectly normal Windows 7 64 bit.
Companies like Valve maintain expensive banks of PC's just to test all the countless configurations possible and STILL fail to deal with all of them as the extensive work arounds available to deal with a INSTALLER show.
Compared with that, Linux is FAR easier. With Linux Valve gets EXTENSIVE support from volunteers eager to help Valve out. With MS they can go die.
The fact that Ubuntu for FREE just works so often when paid for Windows so often does not, shows this. Linux sure has its moments but I can always find help to fix it and so can Valve. With windows? re-install. That is your payed for MS support.
I think Valve will be smart enough to create a default distro which works on listed hardware and for everything else, the community will find an answer. If they can get Linux running on a GBA, everything else is simple. Linux community is one who takes "doesn't work, can't work, the universe will explode if you try" as a challenge. Hell, right now, with no official support, you can run many games just fine with just Wine thanks to users helping users.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
That's why they are doing it. They aren't concerned about Windows 8 as it is now but what it will be after a service pack or three. Suppose DirectX 13 (as part of Windows 8 SP2) and other features are restricted to RT applications only because win32 is being slowly depreciated over the life of Windows 8 so that 9 will be RT only. Given the lead time required why wouldn't Valve want to start working on Linux support now? They could even start doing "cross-buy" deals (i.e. buy the Windows/Mac version, get the Linux one free) to make it easier to work out any issues.
Think about it this way, if by Windows 8 SP3 all win32 code ends up running under virtualization through Microsoft's VirtualPC technology (updated to include Direct3D/OpenGL passthrough) would you want to use it for gaming given the huge performance hit?
I haven't seen a lot of Windows 8 action, but Linux is awesome. More games need to support it.
If you have some sort of citation that proves that Win32 will be phased out, I'd love to see it.
It could just be Valve building a backup plan in case Windows 9 actually does this.
It's not like game publishers are going to start using WinRT as a replacement for Win32.
They are if they want to reach Surface and other Windows RT tablets.
Windows 8 isn't a walled garden. It has a walled garden, but you get a choice. I haven't heard anything that says that you have to release applications through the Windows app store or else it won't run on Windows 8
Look, great on expanding the platforms you're on (I commend putting Steam on Linux), but I'm pretty amazed at the complete lie being told about Windows 8. It makes you look like, well, a liar. Steam is going to do just fine on Windows 8. I'm on Windows 8 now and except for a hiccup with one game, I've had no problems.
....that Novell acted in pretty much the same way - don't offer something better, just bitch about the competition. And watch your market disappear whilst doing it.
In this case, there's even a bonus - unless MS go beyong Steam's fuck-you-we've-got-your-money policy, it's game over; another example of a company resting on their laurels for years (Commodore, Blackberry etc) and then acting butthurt when they might just have to design something new to compete.
But what do I know? I'm sure Linux will actually become common instead occupying the niche it's lived in for twenty years just because Gabe says so.
Value: Great
Linux: Great
AMD Graphics on Linux: Arg
You don't have to use the app store to install a WinRT program.
If you're not using Windows 8 Pro or Enterprise on a domain, you do if you don't want to have to get a new developer license every month and re-sign and re-install all your sideloaded applications every month, as I understand it.
Because lots of computers don't have optical media drives any more, because that would be a shitty place for saves?
A better idea would be a 32 or 64 gig memory stick.
So when can I install steam and download my gaming library onto my linux gaming box?
"Windows 8 ships with its own app store and it is not an open platform anymore"
So Microsoft is blocking out Steam as a distributor?
Yay!!!!
All the games now force you to have a live internet connection. This forced online to play and be monitored is crap.
I've been reading Slashdot from the beginning, and this story is one of the most ridiculous. What does viable mean in this context. Might it have anything to do with market penetration? Whatever issues Windows 8 might have with gaming it will be fixed.
What about customers?
WinRT is the new API that was introduced with Windows 8 and Windows RT. WinRT is locked down on all platforms. I have to keep reiterating this to enraged Microsoft fanboys because they miss it every time.
They have everything except for the games.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Bring them on, please! And no Steam DRM bullshit either, thanks. Give me a Buy-And-Download like how the humble bundle stuff works or ship me the game on a DVD! I can't wait to buy my first real Linux game!
Windows lost the monopoly case because they were using hidden APIs to ensure that their browser ran better than competitors, not because they preinstalled it in the OS. Because of the nature of how shopping for programs works, I don' t think that is a valid comparison (the marketplace performance is not really a concern, the purchased application is what matters.)
I do belive the the WinRT is still by deffinition closing the system. If it becomes their only method for accessing features of the OS, then it is indeen becomming a closed platform. For now, as I understand it, it's still Open ... for now. However, I won't be touching Win8 with a 10 foot pole precisely because of the threat of locking it down in the future.
Yay Linux! I have been meaning to switch from Windows to Linux for months. Now I have an even better reason to do so.
I wrote this. Please don't hate me.
IE6 had over 90% adoption and sat unchanged for 5 years, it took the slow rise of competition that users pushed by word of mouth to get Microsoft to actually create the turd that was IE7, something I doubt they would have done if they had been able to suppress Firefox. That's the definition of a monopoly, and a perfect example of the damage they can do.
Oh, are you going to call in the special Enterprise exemption? Or are you going to show me how it's possible to install a WinRT application without being a developer or enterprise user?
Except on WindowsRT it's already gone. There's more evidence in my favor than there is in yours at this point; and given how much Microsoft has wanted this level of control over end-users for a long time, I don't see any reason to believe they won't pursue it as hard as they can.
The most important thing that this article just glosses over is the fact that Steam isn't a game API. It doesn't help run games in any way on Linux. The people responible for creating the game must make the game work in Linux. Steam is nothing but a DRMed front end launcher. I would much rather launch my games by running the game's executable and not have some TSR bloatware that acts as some sort of shortcut to the game executable.
No, it's not an API. It's a store front-end and distribution service with a minor DRM component. But Valve is also a game studio and are willing to put their money where their mouth is and port their games AND distribution platform to Linux. And if they can draw enough users over to Linux as their primary platform, they could probably draw publishers as well. I imagine they'll have more success with that than OS X, given that users don't need to buy all new hardware to adopt it.
Again we hear Valve bemoaning Windows 8, yet the breakdown of relevant points comes down to "Gaming Companies" wanting to be stores and not a gaming company. Electronic Farts with their Origin debacle or Valve with their mixed pressure Steam offering aren't focusing on Gamers, they're focusing on Wallstreet investors who want a return. They put their "Stores" ahead of their customers, then limit their offerings through their Store, DRM their content, break up products to those that use their store and those that don't - who won't get the "premium" downloadable content.
Companies like this and spokesmen like this should be driven out of the industry to make way for Startups focused on actual customers - no matter what platform they want to play on.
Since you're probably equipped with a mouse and a keyboard, you can just hold a key while moving the mouse for any special actions
GIMP already does this, but users have enough problems figuring out click and Shift+click to draw a straight line segment with the current brush. How should a program let the user know what modifier keys are available at any given moment?
similar to how some Linux distros let you move and resize windows by holding Alt+[L][R]Click and moving the mouse
Which I always disable where possible because it interferes with GIMP's use of Alt+click.
It is pretty much identical to Windows 7's gaming performance, with some minor exceptions (which will likely be fixed with driver updates or game patches over time). Don't just take my word for it either, check out the conclusion to this article from TomsHardware:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,3331-13.html
William George
Personally, I do not want to see "the year of the linux desktop." I want to see the year where there are more than two desktops with no one having a monopolistic advantage. The year of many desktops sounds like a much better world than the year of two desktops.
Seems like this sets the stage and draw a thin gray line between fair competition and anticompetitive practices. Guess since Apple has gotten away with it for so long and justice $, DoJ will look the other way. Of course, I haven't played with Windows 8 yet, but Appstores and app reviews leave a sour taste in my mouth.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
greed is good
...comes when Windows destroys itself? Hardly feels like an achievement...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Gaming is one of the few activities on a computer that requires Windows. Getting support from a high profile Developer and buisness like Valve seems like what is needed to finally break that requirement, or at least to get the process going. It seems like a lot of people are skeptical of the viability of this, but I certainly am happy to support a move away from Windows, especially given the direction Windows 8 is taking the OS. Valve is probrably one of the most respected companies and leaders in the gaming industry, and hearing them promote Linux like this is really fantastic. Steam moving to mac is great and all, but it would be a shame if valve put a lot of effort into getting onto such a restrictive platform after taking the effort to get off of another restrictive platform. I really hope Linux becomes their primary focus to move people too. Linux for desktop still may have a future after all!
I think they are just mad because the cannot get their beloved (and big cashcow) steam on the Windows RT platform.. I'll bet you a dollar that they turn a 180 when they can sell Windows RT games through their steam.. (mind you, it's not Windows 8 games that's the problem, it's the windows rt games that are the problem, for windows 8 itself there is no need for windows store as it's a regular windows application..
You can get a Wacom Cintiq 24HD touch for $2600.
Yes, it's only 24" and 1920x1200, so you could argue if it counts as "large".
They claim something like 98.5% piracy rates on PC as well, so if you were to take both statements as true, the numbers still look far better.
Of course Win8 have a Metro app store that Valve don't like, but it don't prevent to still keep going with a Steam desktop app as before. Valve did test with an old engine running in DirectX9. OpenGL is not better than DX10-11. Source engine is now too old to count. Linux is also not a platform that have "everything we need". It just don't. Valve, don't go crazy. You have a good fanbase, stick with it, don't do stupidities.
I must have some weird Chinese knock-off version of Windows 8, it seems to run Steam exactly as well as Windows 7.
hi
You do realize that the "fully locked down store" of Win8 supports such horrific lock-in features as unrestricted app sideloading, right? Even with the RT versions (such as on Surface) where third-party desktop apps are supposedly banned (people have already worked around that), you can sideload apps to your heart's content, using nothing but official functionality.
Valve is nothing but a crybaby whining that Microsoft is re-creating the benefits of Steam without making people go get Steam. It's not as if Valve has ever been in support non-lockdown. Steam is a fucking DRM platform! It's more locked down than even Windows RT, much less Win8...
Slashdot seems to be giving them a pass, even supporting them, because they're saying good things about Linux and bad things about Windows. OK, I like seeing more games for Linux, and more commercial support in general. But you don't think they're going to drop the DRM just because it's on a "free" OS, do you?
Some serious reality distortion going on here. I wouldn't have picked Gabe Newell as a likely heir of Steve Jobs, but apparently I'd have been wrong.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Of course they're going to complain. The Windows app store pretty much does away with the need for Valve, Steam, etc.
DX8, 9, 9a, 9b, 10, 11, 12.
Oh, by the way, running a game on OpenGL on Linux was 20% faster than the same game run on DX and Windows.
I think what Valve is really trying to say is that the Windows Store is terrible for the Steam business model and their revenue stream.
I guess that is easy to conflate that with terrible for gaming in their minds. ;)
It's not games that keep Windows as a dual boot on my computer. It's Adobe's DRM for ebooks. When the publishers adopted it, Adobe promised to implement it on the major platforms, including Linux. But the Linux one never materialized. Anyone know why?
Publishers like TOR and Baen have a significant advantage when they're trying to sell me ebooks -- I don't have to reboot to Windows to buy them.
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm running windows 8 right now with with your piece of shit bloatware steam running constantly in the background. If that's not an open platform maybe I don't understand what an open platform is.
Windows 8-style apps use different APIs than traditional Windows applications, so Windows 8 actually consists of two "platforms". One of these platforms is still open, the other is definitely not: Apps using the new APIs have to be distributed to end users through the Windows Store.
Right now Steam will of course run fine on Windows 8, like any other legacy application. And we will probably not see major games written as Windows 8-style apps anytime soon. But I believe that you would be mistaken to expect that Microsoft will continue to develop two sets of APIs in parallel forever. Eventually, avoiding the new APIs will be no longer be a viable solution - not unlike like the transition from "no developer in their right mind would develop any game except Solitaire using the Windows APIs" to "no developer in their right mind would still develop a game for DOS".
At that point, Steam for Windows and all other distribution models for Windows applications except Windows Store will be dead.
From my experience with Windows users, many have a completely irrational attachment to Windows. They use it because they "know" it and they don't want Linux because they "don't know" it, even though their Windows installations are full of crapware and they could be fooled by any random Linux distribution with a Windows-themed splash screen.
Try telling that to Walmart which spent the better part of ten years trying to make a go of OEM Linux ---- a merry-go-round of Linux desktop hardware and software bundles which supposedly had mass market appeal and a Windows-like UI.
None struck a spark.
Apple sells an upscale urban lifestyle. Microsoft solid middle class values.
That is why MS Office Home ---a first tier productivity app which consistently tops the retail software bestseller charts --- is bundled with Windows 8 on the ARM platform.
Linux tends to project a geek's ideal of technological perfection, ideological purity and political correctness, no matter how poor a fit they may be to the needs and values of other users.
Or maybe you just keep re-iterating it because you're wrong, and are nonetheless trying your hardest to spread FUD.
It's entirely possible for "Metro"-style apps to use the normal Win32 APIs; developers figured out how to do this long before Win8 even went RTM. That's just the nature of C++, which is what WinRT is actually written in (although it has bindings in all the supported languages). Microsoft may (or may not; I haven't checked) prevent any app which does so from appearing in the store, but that's not a huge problem. Windows 8 and even Windows RT fully support sideloading of Metro-style apps; it's free and requires no hacks of any kind (official, though rather quiet, feature).
Of course, the apps still run in a low-permission sandbox. That's hardly a problem for games, though. In fact, it's by far the preferred behavior; most games have absolute shit for security. For things like productivity apps, you'd probably want to use the WinRT file open and file save APIs, although you don't need to; there are other ways to get acess to the rest of the filesystem if you don't mind having the user run a script (which since an automatically-built Powershell script is how you sideload "Metro"-style apps, could be easily done by just adding to that script). Just change the ACLs to give the app access to whatever locations it wants.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
The title should be 'Valve declares Windows 8 store is a better opportunity for distribution than Steam'.
For the majority of games, the optimisations we are talking about aren't required. The Windows 8 store doesn't require installing separately to the OS, meaning mainstream users now have a store and brand they trust with their credit card, leading to more downloads. There is a reason why games on Steam are already in the Windows 8 store, being marketed by those brands above their Steam presence. Broader reach, zero barriers for Windows 8 users.
It wasn't a pleasure for me. Kylix was a slow, unworkable mess. And Borland made the mistake of targeting particular versions of WineLib and QT and then not committing themselves to the necessary maintenance when those libraries changed. Borland did a half-assed job and then dropped it immediately instead of nurturing it. Not that there was ever much of market for it. QT was already in place and a wonderful development tool. To compete, Borland needed to have been as smart as Trolltech.
The only thing tying a lot of people (myself included) to Windows is gaming.
A lot? According to this interview with Ubisoft representatives, only 7% of Ubi's 2011 revenue was generated on PC and 5% of Activision's revenue:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/05/ubisoft-drm-piracy-interview/
That means that >90% of gaming happens on other platforms anyway (consoles, smartphones) and for those users gaming is not what's keeping them on Windows.
Erm 100% of Blizzard's revenue is generated by PC Gamers, so therefore I extrapolate from my dataset that 0% of gaming must be happening on other platforms.
Picking Activision or Ubisoft are bad examples as they primarily produce console games with PC as an afterthought. Fortunately they are not the only game manufacturers, nor are they representative of the gaming industry in general.
You may wish to become better informed.
PC game revenues have been higher for over 2 years now despite selling fewer units. Per unit, PC games sell at a lower price point than console games and make more money. PC gamers play more than console gamers and there's also a lot more people with PC's that can play games than people with consoles.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Win8 is no more closed than Win7. You can still build / sell Win32 apps. Win8 *adds* a new way to distribute software. Regardless of whether the Windows Marketplace / Store / whatever is good or bad, that's completely independent of the fact that Win8 is still *Windows*, so you can still install Steam, Firefox, or whatever other software you want to download or create.
Linux isn't a popular gaming platform because it lacks capability or features to support great gaming. It's not a popular gaming platform because game developers can't economically support the myriad of Linux distros in a way the consumer expects to be supported. Supporting even the "most popular" or "most common" Linux (however you want to define it) is a developer death by a 100 paper cuts spending time, effort and money fixing all the little edge cases.
Mainstream consumers want to "get Linux", then "play games" that "just works" not fiddle around recompiling source code or waiting for a package maintainer to get around to creating the package for their particular strain of Linux only to have it stop working 6 months later when the next 0.0.0.1 release comes out of Linux Distro XYZ. Imagine waiting two weeks for a yum update of you favorite MMO game client while everyone on Windows simply clicked an icon the moment the game update was released from the developer, the game updated itself auto-magically and connected and you were playing that evening.
It stands to be seen how well Windows 8 actually turns out as a gaming platform, but, from a veteran MMO developer's perspective, Windows has been a dream to develop, distribute and support games for compared to Linux. Windows prior to Win8 may not have been open source but it was open in the way consumers and developers care: you could build and distribute anything you wanted without approval from anyone.
Runesabre
Enspira Online
Microsoft hindered the potential of browsing with Internet Explorer.
We have learned from that mistake.
Microsoft hindered the potential of gaming with DirectX.
We have yet to learn from that mistake.
Which combination of APIs am I supposed to use again on Linux? Which distro am I targetting again? Unless they are aiming at selling you a locked down console, it won't work. And none of the freetards will want a locked down console even if it is Linux-based, will they?
Wow windows 8 is like steam - they both suck . and are simple chains to bind the user ,looking in the mirror can be quite a shock indeed. Which reminds me to remove the bathroom mirror
There's always someone who says "sound has worked just fine for years!"
Obviously it works well for some people. It probably works well for the developers, since they can fix their problems, and it probably for some people who coincidentally have similar hardware...
It seems my copy of Linux Mint has no OSS support whatsoever by default. I was trying to play some NSF files the other day, but my NSF player wouldn't work as there's no "/dev/dsp" for it to access. So I tried to find another. Couldn't find one that worked. Eventually had to just use my Windows laptop to play the files. ...and while one might say that I'd have no problem if my NSF player used ALSA instead, I have to point out that there are a lot of simple little utilities that prefer OSS simply because the ABI is far simpler to learn and use than ALSA. Indeed, I used OSS from some simple little things I did in assembly language. (ASM is no good for large projects.) It isn't even possible to use ALSA from assembly language as it doesn't have a documented ABI, only a C library API.
Honestly, if they'd just start doing audio mixing in kernel space instead of treating the idea like it's some sort of sin (for fuck's sake, it isn't like Linux is a microkernel), and simply create an API (or better yet an ABI) that doesn't require so much effort to learn that the few people who successfully learn it immediately think "I should create a wrapper for this" while the ones who find it to be too complex simply use one of the many (typically broken) wrappers, Linux audio would be a lot less painful.
If you don't believe ALSA is just too complicated, look at this "simple" example:
http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/_2test_2pcm_8c-example.html
I can hear people now saying "so what if it's complex, people can always write wrapper libraries to create simpler interfaces." ...but the problem is that that is exactly what's happened. There are far too many wrapper libraries for audio in Linux and they cause a lot of problems. So one has to ask, why should playing a simple bit of PCM data require hundreds of lines of code?
Why do you keep an XP partition for games and Steam? I use windows 7 and it works fine. It doesn't creak at all. I'm definitely not pro-windows, but there is no reason to keep XP around anymore, just upgrade to 7.
Linux could be a good gaming platform .... but unless we are talking about simple games, it will never be.
The main reason: X-11 is a HORRIBLE performance hog. On top of that, you have crapware for video drivers (even the ones developed by the vendor).
So NO. It is not better than anything else. It's not even at the bottom of the list. It is not even in the list. There is very little chance Linux can be a good gaming platform the way it is today. It has LOTS of things to fix and replace before it can even make it into the list.
I guess quite Valve will sell quite some games to Linux gamers, but it will not change anything about Windows being the main gaming platform for PC gaming.
First, there is the HUGE amount of previous games, which still won't work correctly on Linux. That would mean gamers would have to set up a separate Linux installation, maybe by dual booting or getting another PC, just to be able to play both new and old games - which would also mean having to reboot if you want to play a game only installed under the other OS. Combine this with the second point - that game developers will not suddenly switch to "Linux only", because they still want to sell games to all those WIndows users, and there really is no incentive for gamers to switch to Linux. They still have their Windows OS which can play all old and new games, so what REASON would there be to switch to Linux? There would have to be an IMMENSE advantage to using Linux to play newer games, like either some new AAA games only available for Linux (which won't happen), or the performance difference between the two OS so big that you could get away with a PC a generation or two older than on Windows to play the newest games - and even that would only interest the hardcore gamers, normal people do not really care about benchmark numbers.
Your type of *NIX supporters can suck a ****, you're nothing but fanbois. Your loyalties do nothing but destroy the OS and the distros to the point where you can't even release something worth using. As a Slackware user since ver. 2.5, I've seen how destructive you assholes are on a regular basis. It's getting grating and annoying, it's been nearly 20 years now, drop the hostility.
Yes, I said it.
Did I insult a Linux fanboy or a Windows shill? Inquiring minds think you're a punk.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I'm using steam with wine http://www.winehq.org/ ... No stupid MS OS here, no sir.
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
Windows 8, on my old c2quad processor and my GTX 570 video card, gives me 5-7 more fps than Windows 7 does.
Valve will make money with OpenGL games, etc, under Linux, for those that decide to code their stuff for it and make it compatible - simply because there's no real alternative other than WINE (and it's ilk)
Would be awesome if Windows users stopped buying their games to show em who's boss...
I have a feeling that this will be a really good thing for Linux, gaming and the community. Valve are at least focusing on an Ubuntu LTS release and they might have a few bugs/issues to start with, but the biggest thing that will drive this forward is that the community itself will rally round and help too and the possible standardising that Valve can bring to the table, as well as the games themselves. Other Linux distros will jump on board as it gets more popular and the big question of "does it run Steam?" will hopefully be another incentive to drive Linux forward.
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
Ew... Pulseaudio :(
I'm a Lniux/Unix user, enthusiast, evangelist etc etc but I must say this guy from Valve is clearly misunderstanding what Windows 8 is. Yes, the RT (formerly "Metro") side of windows 8 has its own app-store for WinRT-based apps, and is less of an open platform, but such is not the case for the "classic desktop" mode which is where the .NET, Win32 and COM based binaries run. The RT 'experience' only supports apps written in the Win8 RT sdk, packaged for WinRT kernel, distributed via their app store and subject to their UX and performance rules & guidelines. All "traditional" windows applications run in the desktop mode, are NOT distributable through the windows app store, and are not subject to the rules & guidelines of the RT apps.
Now, that said, ARM based devices will only be able to run the "lightest" version of Windows 8 which supports only the RT mode, no 'classic desktop'. Of course, this being the first Windows OS supporting ARM, this can be seen as an 'additional' windows platform, not a shift from one to another.
I think more than anything, this shows that Microsoft hasn't done the best possible job in making the RT/"classic" distinction clear to the consumers. Being sued and having to drop the "Metro" title after consumer previews were out in the wild probably didn't help either.
"the desktop" -- you mean the thing that MS got rid of and put
a push-button smart-phone interface in place of? That thing that MS made impossible to boot into?
Yeah, MS was forced to leave Win8 booting up in "unlocked mode" as an option for Win8-ready computers, *this time*... but win9?... Windows will be about as viable of a gaming platform as an iphone or a closed console.
While game manufacturers are currently ripping off Win customers by subsidizing console licensing fees, don't think that MS isn't going to notice this and -- well, since the fee is already being charged, it makes sense that MS will start charging a PC-licensing fee in order to run a program on the PC -- Win9, win10? Everything is setup to turn the PC into the same closed model as a verizon phone. The new UEFI bios checks the serial numbers of each part and checks whether or not you bought a license to upgrade that part -- and rejects parts you didn't buy a license to upgrade! This feature is ALREADY in the current UEFI bios's it's just not activated -- I know this due to a fault bios in one of my machines that randomly fails to boot due to my having upgraded the memory in my machine from the 4G it came with to 48G. Now it complains half the time when I boot about one of those chips having a serial number that has changed (they've ALL changed -- I said it was a faulty bios) and refuses to enable the memory chip preventing the machine from booting. The computer and bios are under warrantee, and the license check code, I've been told is being run due to a fault BIOS -- it's not suppose to be active "yet".... But all the pieces are being put in place so that you won't be able to upgrade your PC, let alone boot a non-approved OS, in the future.
Of course this all is kept with encrypted keys in the 'paladium' TCM chip that will ensure no HW/SW tampering has been done in a machine before allowing it to boot in secure mode (if it allows it to boot at all).
All the pieces are being put in place to take complete control of our PC remotely by multiple players who buy into the corporate control structure.
BTW -- the memory chip error comes up from the BIOS -- and disallows any boot -- (the machine currently runs linux, NOT windows).
Everybody knows Windows is bloated beyond comprehension.
This is funny, you got it completely backwards. Leaked Windows code on bittorrent shows it to be of very high quality, says those who looked at it. Whereas Linux code is of bad quality, as several developers say (including Linux developers).
Linus Torvalds:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/22/linus_torvalds_linux_bloated_huge/
Citing an internal Intel Corp, study that tracked kernel releases, Bottomley said Linux performance had dropped about two per centage points at every release, for a cumulative drop of about 12 per cent over the last ten releases. "Is this a problem?" he asked.
"We're getting bloated and huge. Yes, it's a problem," said Torvalds.
"The kernel is huge and bloated, and our icache footprint is scary. I mean, there is no question about that. And whenever we add a new feature, it only gets worse."
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Linux-Linus-Torvalds-kernel-too-complex-code,14495.html
"Torvalds recently stated that Linux has become "too complex" and he was concerned that developers would not be able to find their way through the software anymore. He complained that even subsystems have become very complex and he told the publication that he is "afraid of the day" when there will be an error that "cannot be evaluated anymore."
Andrew Morton, Linux kernel hacker:
http://lwn.net/Articles/285088/
Q: Is it your opinion that the quality of the kernel is in decline? Most developers seem to be pretty sanguine about the overall quality problem. Assuming there's a difference of opinion here, where do you think it comes from? How can we resolve it?
A: I used to think it was in decline, and I think that I might think that it still is. I see so many regressions which we never fix.
http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Active_Merge_Windows
"the tree breaks every day, and it's becoming an extremely non-fun environment to work in. We need to slow down the merging, we need to review things more, we need people to test their [...] changes!"
BSD developer Theo de Raadt
http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
"It's terrible," De Raadt says. "Everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, 'This is garbage and we should fix it.'"
Lok Technologies, a San Jose, Calif.-based maker of networking gear, started out using Linux in its equipment but switched to OpenBSD four years ago after company founder Simon Lok, who holds a doctorate in computer science, took a close look at the Linux source code.
"You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' "Lok says. "What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch."
Linus Torvalds yells at Alan Cox for complaining about Linux being broken making it difficult to write software:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/7/28/375
"You should have tried to fix the problem immediately, without arguing against fixing the kernel. Without blaming user space. Without making idiotic excuses for bad kernel behavior."
http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html
"Last year Dave Jones told everyone that the kernel was going to pieces, with loads of bugs being found and no end in sight"
Regarding the "superior" Linux design:
Well, it has no design, it evolves randomly, rewriting large parts all the time just at biological evolution where Homo Sapiens come from. Surely that must be better than a design plan? New fresh bugridden code are always present in Linux.
http://www.datamation.com/open-source/linus-torvalds-tells-all-as-linux-hits-20.html
"Kroah-Hartman noted that Linux has taken an evolutionary approach as opposed to some kind of intelligent design approach."
The problem with Windows, is that until recently the design was a huge mess (b
Ditto.
HDMI audio works like a charm in ALSA. I did have to choose the right HDMI channel for my surround type, but that was it.
Pulse... well I never did get more than stereo to work and it came out rather screechy.
I also had a lot of issues with Pulse and Wine, particularly with microphones and input devices. ALSA worked fine.
Pulse used to be good if you needed to mix multiple input sources without having one monopolize your sound device, but ALSA hasn't had issues with that in years on any device I've used. Pulse may still be useful for some bluetooth or distributed-audio stuff, but for most people it seems to be just excess baggage.