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Hello, I'm a Mac. And I'm a $248 Win8 PC.
theodp writes "A little birdie told me which Windows 8 machines would sell out fast. 'Cheep' ones! While no official sales figures have emerged, anecdotal evidence suggests that cheap Windows 8 laptops were a big hit with Black Friday shoppers, leaving some Walmart and Best Buy bargain hunters disappointed at missing out on the sub-$250 deals. So, was the Doctor-Desktop-and-Mister-Metro dual nature of Windows 8 and lack of a touchscreen no big deal to these bargain basement 'Laptop Hunters', or did they not realize what they were buying? Or, as a GeekWire commenter suggests, perhaps they were really just looking to score an ultra-cheap Linux laptop!"
They have no idea what they purchased, it was a cheap buy and they will be sorely disappointed when it runs like crap a year from now.
I haven't played with Windows 8 out of the box, but I really hope there aren't first boot tutorials that showcase touch capabilities
People aren't buying "Windows 8" PCs, they are buying "cheap" PCs that, as an amazing coincidence, come preinstalled with the latest version of Windows (which is... Windows 8)
What's the point of this article, and why the comparison with Apple?
They work fine, once you put an operating system on them.
A turd is a turd, I wouldnt touch it even for free. Think about TCO and ROI. I used my Mac for more than a year at my job until they actually bought one "for me".
Well yeah, but the underlying hardware might be decent enough. If that's the case then you can put Linux have the best of both worlds: cheap hardware and an excellent OS.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The summary ascribes far more intelligence than is present in people who buy "rock bottom" priced computers. They're only more intelligent than the person they sell it on to.
Do you see what I did there?
Earlier today, the entire chess club surrounded one of these new $250 Windows 8 machines. They were all poking at the screen, but while it was changing colors on them, it wasn't responding. (Guess what guys? That's not a touchscreen. Those colors are what you get when you poke a normal LCD display.) They were convinced that all Windows 8 machines had touchscreens, though, and so they never used the touchpad.
And then they tried shutting it down. I was mocking them for a while, as an entire chess club couldn't figure it out, so then they passed it to me and I couldn't figure it out either. Turns out the option to shut it down is hidden behind an invisible menu, hidden behind two other submenus unrelated to shutting things down.
We eventually had to look it up online, as I expect many people will have to do.
It was an interesting case study though, in how fucked up Microsoft made the Metro UI.
If it worth the effort dealing with hardware, UEFI, lack of support for Linux, hacking and the overall inconsistency (yet), of the several Linux desktops /: I use and hack Linux servers/and in virtual infra-structures (aka cloud for PHBs), but cant bother to have Linux for my desktop. Time is money.
A Linux VM can be a wonderful dev "box". Lots of tools just an apt-get away. But yes, it can be torture trying to get it to on (say) an old Atom netbook with Intel graphics. For some reason, I couldn't get it to recognise the graphics chip as legit :/
If they wanted a cheap netbook to put Linux on, Google is selling Acer's Intel-based dual-core 64bit VT-enabled chromebook with 2GB RAM and a 320GB HDD for $200.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
it was a cheap buy and they will be sorely disappointed when it runs like crap a year from now.
I know several people who bought very cheap netbooks and were very happy with them for a number of years. Heck, I still use my ageing eee 900 daily.
Cheap doesn't mean bad or badly built. Not everyone needs a 64 processor monster to surf the web.
At home I have a nine year old Dell P4 that was average at the time. It runs Ubuntu 12.04 now, serves as backup host and for my scanning project, batch scanning my slide collection. Browsing the internet is not a problem. Yes it's a lot slower, but still acceptable. Converting a 500 MB DNG image to JPEG takes 5 minutes, but who cares if it's a batch job. I added 3GB RAM and a new videocard four years ago, and just added a 4TB drive. If necessary I can start Virtualbox with XP and run Photoshop and Illustrator CS4 inside. For not too extreme images, it's OK, although that can be sluggish.
That's because Atoms use a licenced PowerVR graphic core from Imagination Technology that provided a binary-only linux driver, and it sucked hard.
Later kernels have the gma500 driver that provides at least basic functionality on those turds.
I bought a $298 Gateway nV series with Windows 8 preinstalled. I played with it painfully for 15 minutes then put Ubuntu 12.10 (KDE) on it. I was amazed to see all of the bloatware still there in tile form. The charm interface is incredibly painful with a touchpad and even more so cause it was a Gateway touchpad which is painful to use in any regular desktop OS.
, but cant bother to have Linux for my desktop. Time is money.
When it comes to installing all the programs I need, keeping security up to date, making sure all the tools run well together, making sure my development environment has access to the libraries I need etc, I can't be bothered with anything but Linux for the desktop. Time is money.
and the overall inconsistency (yet), of the several Linux desktops /
Overall inconsistency? Surely you jest? My window manager config is not much changed from the late 90's. I've not had to adapt to new and more poorly functioning (I've tried, but always revert) desktop environment in a decade and a half.
Linux is the only system that has provided any degree consistency over all these years. Heck, the Window decorations bear much more similarity to pre Window-95 than to 95 and after.
Oh and because of the flexibility of X11, I can configure my window manager to beat poorly behaving applications into submission so thay they behave consistently with the rest of the system. This is some not generally possible on the less good operating systems: if an application programmer thinks they know better you have to put up with their poor decisions. (And now the Wayland folks are trying to bring that to Linux. But that's another rant.)
I haven't even had to give up compositing support. FVWM works side by side with any of the xcompmgr derivatives. I played with drop shadows and transparency and animations a bit for fun, then disabled them because I found they intefere with work.
So actually, if you look at it from another point of view, Linux, or specifically X11, offers a far more consistent user interface than the other operating systems.
Time is money.
Yes and no. I use Linux for two reasons. Firstly it's much more efficient. Secondly it's much, much more pleasant to use. I avoid jobs where I have to use Windows for the same reason I avoid jobs which involve being repeatedly jabbed with pointy sticks. Sure the jobs might pay well, but why do something I disklike?
Time is more than money. You only get time once.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
If they wanted a cheap netbook to put Linux on, Google is selling Acer's Intel-based dual-core 64bit VT-enabled chromebook with 2GB RAM and a 320GB HDD for $200.
I noticed this too. They do seem incredibly good value. I have no idea why Google are not pushing them more. The deal is also unfortunately US centric. I did notice that Google is planning on launching a touchscreen version, which hopefully would bring me Ubuntu with Androids in a virtual machine.
Paranoid much? Watch out, they're probably all out to get you!
On a related note, TFA is extremely biased and anti-Windows.
Conclusion, you are the actual pro-Apple shill. We're not stupid you know.
I find it interesting that this tidbit was glossed over.
However, the scene wasn’t so rosy for Microsoft at the Mall of America in Minneapolis, where analyst Gene Munster of Piper Jaffray and team observed and tabulated traffic and sales at Microsoft and Apple stores. Microsoft saw 47 percent less foot traffic than the Apple Store did, and far fewer sales — 3.5 items per hour, compared with 17.2 items per hour at the Apple Store, as reported by Fortune’s Philip Elmer-Dewitt. Most of the items purchased from the Microsoft Store were Xbox 360 games. During the two hours that the Piper Jaffray team observed the Microsoft Store, they didn’t see any Microsoft Surface tablets being purchased.
But yes, it can be torture trying to get it to on (say) an old Atom netbook with Intel graphics.
On Intel's own graphics, Linux works fantastically well.
That netbook must have had one of those wretched PowerVR derived ones.
Intel releaed them then basically shat on all the users with poor drivers. The Windows drivers were terrible and badly supported, the Linux ones were even worse.
I had a project a while back which involved using a Toughbook CF-U1 (a super hardened macine for which there is basically no substitute). My team (Linux) had terrible trouble. The other team (Windows) didn't fare much better. Intel's OEM customers must have been furious after developing products based on that chipset and essentially being handed a huge, steaming turd for their troubles.
Eventually the Windows drivers stabilised and stopped crashing at the slightest provocation. They were still flakey, but one could ifnd a subset of things to avoid to prevent hard locks or reboots. But the performance went way down with the lack of crashing and it didn't come any where near the performance that it was supposed to, or the crash happy performance.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
WTF? Slashdot is referencing a comment on Geekwire as a basis for people installing Linux? How low can it go? Idiot submitters like theodp and symbolset are turning Slashdot into a anti-Microsoft tabloid rather than any place for serious discussion. Not surprising that people with half a brain are ditching Slashdot in droves in disgust.
Same for me. I've had to use my own Porsche for months on the job now, my boss just refuses to buy me a decent car! I just won't touch that Prius they bought me, a turd is a turd and I wouldn't feel safe driving it. SO I have requested all employees to recieve only Porsche company cars from now on, that will increase speed, efficiency and therefore save a lot of money.
A Linux VM can be a wonderful dev "box". Lots of tools just an apt-get away. But yes, it can be torture trying to get it to on (say) an old Atom netbook with Intel graphics. For some reason, I couldn't get it to recognise the graphics chip as legit :/
I'm quite surprised that someone would be brave enough to make this comment today. What your saying is not just untrue, Linux has dedicated distributions just for Netbooks, and light Linux ones too. If for some reason you still need to force the "intel" driver. There are many ways to achieve this (forcing the intel driver with an /etc/X11/xorg.conf, removing the xserver-xorg-video-modesetting and/or xserver-xorg-video-fbdev, but if your capable of running a VM you are more than capable of these solutions. I have a slew of expensive hardware that won't work with Windows7 including scanners and wireless adapters...and several computers. Linux has a whole host of problems...hardware support isn't one of them.
I am pretty sure making a few tens of thousands of machines(lets be real about demand for such a device) with the all the above features will cost much much more than the $500+ per each machine you're offering.
but cant bother to have Linux for my desktop. Time is money.
Are you kidding? Tell that to my windows 7 installation that spends more than 20 minutes in endless updates and reboots, every single time I turn it on.
SImple. They were buying what they thought was a great deal and the cheapest computer around, as this is the only computer christmas present they could buy while thinking it is a real computer.
Just spent a weekend linuxing one of these - a Samsung NC110p with (I think) GMA3600. Linux Mint 13, after updates and reboots, now goes quite nicely. Uses the cedarview packages, fwiw.
Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
I love seeing posts like these where someone explains how great, easy, and trouble free their custom config of Linux is, but not where said distro can be downloaded on ISO.
Yes, I know Linux is wonderful if you spend 50 hours getting everything just right (I had to do it many times in the course of upgrading through the Ubuntu line), I just dont have that kind of time anymore.
People who can afford real laptops buy them, and the rest buy cheap netbooks. So who is the buyer MS has in mind for the $800 Surface with a netbook-size screen? If I have $800, I can get a primo Asus laptop with a big screen and nice specs. If I can't afford a laptop, I can't afford a Surface. I can't figure out Microsoft's target audience, who they think is going to buy the Surface. If I want a status gadget, I'll get a $600 iPad.
Endless reboots=youre doing it wrong.
Also, IIRC, with Windows it only interrupts the process (cleanly) if you do a reboot as its downloading / applying updates. As I remember, doing so on Linux tends to mess things up. (dont you have to run dpkg-clean or some such after interrupting the apt process?)
95% or more really only want to connect to facebook, yelp, twitter, instagram, etc. email as a stand alone application is dead. Web browsing is dead. In so far as consumers actually need to find something, all they want is the first hit they see when they type "Gimme hurrp durrp whars Twilight playing?" in the Bing search field. And EVEN THAT is going away because MS will put what it thinks you should know or want or need on a crawl that you can stab at with your sticky fat finger.
I am hoping Windows 9 does away with words entirely and uses icons like the cash registers at McDonalds. You want pizza, stab the pizza button. That's all people want anyway. Larnin's for them funny Asian people, bubba.
They bought a computers cheaper than you and your making out your more intelligent. The irony burns. I would be very surprised if any are disappointed with their purchases.
They were really just looking for a cheap Windows laptop, and that's what they found. This summary seems needlessly snarky and I fail to see why this is news at all.
I mean, it might be news that Windows 8 isn't crashing and burning as it looked likely to, but it sounds like this exists just to make fun of people who bought 250 USD PCs.
Endless reboots=youre doing it wrong.
Also, IIRC, with Windows it only interrupts the process (cleanly) if you do a reboot as its downloading / applying updates.
Not sure how I can be doing it wrong. I only boot Windows to play a few games, but when I do I instantaneously stop feeling like playing games due to the endless waiting due to the updates. Didn't know I could interrupt the updates, the updating screen seemed pretty clear to NOT shutdown/reboot the computer. Though I would I want to reboot? Wouldn't that postpone the update process into the upcoming boot?
As I remember, doing so on Linux tends to mess things up. (dont you have to run dpkg-clean or some such after interrupting the apt process?)
No idea, I don't use Debian. But if you are updating from the terminal, you can always ctrl+Z and pause the process...
In Gentoo though, things are installed into a alternate disk image which is merged in one shot into the real system if the installation succeeded.
Moving the cursor to a corner of the screen is incredibly painful?
Well, Mac or whatever your name is, stop trying to sell me shit. I don't care about your windows 8.
*shuts door in your face*
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
>7 slowed down on the first SP.
Does anyone have any objective benchmark or reference for this? This is not true at all on the 4 machines I used daily (Work PC/Home Desktop/Laptop/HTPC). The last OS that slowed down with more patches and usage was XP.
Also, XP didn't start off fast for me. It was slower than ME on the machines at the time. Of course, Vista was much more bloated in the beginning though.
I believe there are people that would just like an up to date laptop as a secondary pc and this inexpensive one will work great because at that price it really does not matter.
Run Linux on it.
It'll be faster.
I may grant that it's not as bad as Vista, but XP started off fast and as it was patched to less than a virus laden whore it got bigger and slower.
Vista started off big and slow.
7 slowed down on the first SP.
8 will do the same.
I find Linux is faster, but I am not sure that this isn't just because it doesn't need antivirus rather than being faster in itself.
That's absurd... I hate wasting time configuring things, I want things to just work - and whether it was Ubuntu (which I abandoned to unity - and yes, I gave it a valiant effort and just didn't like it) or now Debian... download the ISO and install. As someone else mentioned, all my productivity tools are just an apt-get away - a lot easier and faster than hunting down, downloading, and installing all the various editors and scripting and programming languages I use. I had given up on Linux, too, up until about Ubuntu 6 - installed and it just worked. It's true that some releases broke stuff that was already working, but by and large I spent less time tweaking Linux than Windows at that point.
I still have windows, and I am one of the ones that got an inexpensive (but not sub $250) notebook... I'm a cheapskate, my current laptop is over 7 years old, and I want any new one I buy to last just as long, so I spent the extra to get blu-ray and USB 3.0, and also discrete graphics with it's own memory. It comes with Windows 8, and I will try to repartition and dual boot. If push comes to shove, I'll just use LInux, but I would love to try out Windows 8 - so I'm not some rabid anti-MS guy, either. I use what allows me to work the fastest and least aggravatingly. I have all the options - Mac, Linux, and Windows, and I even gave the Mac about a two month trial to see if I could get used to the UI. I still use LInux, currently debain, where I downloaded an ISO and installed it and it "just works." No "custom config," it just works.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
I love seeing posts like these where someone explains how great, easy, and trouble free their custom config of Linux is, but not where said distro can be downloaded on ISO.
Why? Custom configs can be applied to basically any distro. Window management schemes are elmost entirely distro independent. That's one of the joys of unix/Linux .
I currently use the same FVWM setup on Arch and Ubuntu. I've also used an older version (sometimes much older, since this goes back some way) on OSX, Cygwin/Windows, OpenBSD, Solaris and AIX, not to mention various flavours of Linux (Arch, Ububntu, Suse, Redhat, and probably a few others on the way).
I can't point you to my config file because it's not online anywhere, and you almost certainly wouldn't like it anyway.
Yes, I know Linux is wonderful if you spend 50 hours getting everything just right
There are two points: .bashrc, .bash_login, .fvwm2rc, .vimrc, .Xdefaults and .Xmodmap files, which takes around a minute. Oh and I have to generally apt-get install or pacman -S or zypper a few packages, taking perhaps another few minutes. Then get noscript and flashblock for firefox.
1. A new machine is easy to set up. The install takes however long these things do these days. Customizing is a question of copying my
The total setup time is well under an hour including the base install, and a significant fraction can't be avoided even if I "didn't have time" because I can't do my job without (e.g.) a compiler.
2. Who cares? If you lost 20 minutes per day to a sub optimal configuration, those 50 hours are paid back in well under a year. Though given that it takes less time to set up Linux than anything else, the payback time is strongly negative.
I just dont have that kind of time anymore.
Interesting, so you don't have the time to work efficiently any more? I mean I know "work smarter not harder" is a bit of a cliche these days, but you might wish to consider it.
It's funny that computer people have this odd attitude. I can't imagine a carpenter mashing away with a blunt or inadequate saw claiming that he doesn't have time to sharpen the tools, even though payback would be measured in hours.
Or a semi driver hauling a semi trailer along at 5 mph using a compact car in first gear. No, I don't have time to go out and get a tractor because it's already taking me too long to get where I need to go, and I have lost too much time already to having the clutch replaced. I just don't have time to get a tractor.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Well... it sounds like you have the same problem I do - boot into Windows once every few months and get inundated with updates. At the same time, I have the same problem with Linux - up until recently I rarely used my laptop for work, and might grab it once every couple of months. That was frustrating because I would only use it when I was going to be waiting for a long time somewhere and only had wifi (often tethered to my 3G phone); at least it would ask me if I wanted to update before downloading, though - Windows was very frustrating that way because it would automatically start downloading things even though I was on a slow connection. Yes, in either case you could go out of your way to turn that off, but then you have to remember to do it manually when you had a good connection.
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier in another post, I did get a BF laptop (ordered online, though). Not quite that cheap, but comes with windows 8 and I'm actually looking forward to checking it out although, at minimum, I will try to make it dual boot. I'm agnostic about OSes, but for the kind of development I do, I the least frustrated with Linux at the moment.
On a side note, about these people claiming Linux takes too much time, I was doing a peer session with another programmer using a Mac. At every step we found he was missing something we needed (his laptop - it was our first session on a new project using Django, a small project just to learn about it). Every library we needed was really annoying to get and install... he was getting mad at me because I just kept smirking and saying "apt-get install mysql-server," "apt-get install MySQLdb" while he was trying to find a download. Windows would have been worse. So I really don't get how any developer could possibly think they need to "waste" time on Linux when my experience has always been the opposite - but I suppose it depends what kind of work you do.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Windows8 can still do everything Windows7 do, stop being lame with posts like that
I should add though, for people with morals and ethics, a mac is never the right choice.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
No Xcode with Linux... No free professional help in every major city in the world... so the op pays 300% more for those two things.
Don't get me wrong - Apple Laptops are great. Just not worth the price tag for me, and I really gave MacOS a valiant try (I have a mini at work... it's currenlty powered off and I'm using Linux on an ancient PC - although if they'd give me another network drop I'd leave it on and play with it occasionally).
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Precisely! Since we are telling stories I would also like to share mine..
My current Gentoo installation was performed around 2004. At the time, I lost around a week with trial-error learning my way how to install the damn thing. Well..it has been 8 years, I changed laptop meanwhile and with successive updates, the same installation persists.. When I first installed it, Gentoo was one of the few Linux distributions supporting the new amd64 architecture. My laptop was an Athlon64 beast that would take all the space of my backpack. Around half the way, I bought a Turion64 X2 laptop; because the system was binary compatible between these two CPUs, I copied the whole system into the new laptop. I changed the compilation flags to use a few extensions that new CPU supported and let the system update (the newly compiled stuff will benefit from the flags) over time.. I did however, perform a fresh Gentoo installation very recently because I decided to turn into x86 (the binaries are smaller, takes less RAM).
Currently, the laptop is certainly old by today's standards but my system has been fast and stable as it has always been, I don't see any reason to upgrade.
I believe there are people that would just like an up to date laptop as a secondary pc and this inexpensive one will work great because at that price it really does not matter.
Exactly. Even as an IT professional, that's what I do.
- A solid desktop for my main needs: gaming, programming, database-work, etc. Large screen, comfortable use, fast speeds.
- A cheap portable laptop for when I need to do something mobile or I just need to do something casual while sitting on the couch.
Sure, if money AND space were an issue I'd consider just a solid / expensive laptop to fit both needs. But in my case, having both is quite fine.
Admittedly, when my laptop died my tablet filled "most" of the void left by the loss of my portable machine. But sometimes in IT you do need a portable rig.
The support for your hardware, too? (See 7th line)
I also wasn't aware that Linux comes with hardware swap warranty (see 5th last line).
And how does Linux provide you with a ridiculous resale value? (3rd last line)
I'm really glad that you brought up these points, Apple have recently got in trouble for fitting their [not your] overpriced electronics [not computers] with refurbished parts..in China no less. They also got in trouble in the EU for only offering a 1Year Guarantee...When EU has a mandatory 2Year Warentee. As for resale value, cheaper machines drop less in price, Apple used to have good second hand value...but that was before the move from a computer company to an electronics company where upgrades to old hardware extended the hardware life...an option available to other manufactures.
Apple rip-off their customers :)
The irony of discovering Linux isn't BSD
Seriously you are really going to make this a which is what is a free licence, I personally didn't think it was worth pointing out the differences. Lets be honest I don't care about your license snobbery, but the pragmatist in me would argue strongly that the Linux kernel has a happier ecosystem than the BSD one, and the reason is GPL...in the "tit for tat" Linus version not the "Free" Dick verison.
I cannot think of any advantage that Apple has over any Genetic White Box, but them I'm not interested in having a logo. I want [and need] a computer.
I'm typically on Linux, when I do boot under Windows 7 for my kids, once in a while, it's update time! can last a good hour sometimes. Yes, many reboots
In parallel I maintain a fleet of compute Linux servers, they are not on the internet, but of course I update them every time the compute load goes down a bit. I may have hundreds of packages to update every time, but there is only one reboot.
Seriously the W7 update scheme is not ideal.
I did that, and most everything worked except for wireless. After several hacks, that started working.
Upgraded to 7.04; whoops, X is broken. Several hacks later, its working again.
Upgraded to 7.10; whoops Wine is broken, your G15 keyboard is broken. Several hacks later, its working again.
Upgraded to 8.04. Whoops, sound, flash, G15, and Ventrilo are all broken. X customizations ignored. Several hours (days?) later, we're back in business.
Upgraded to 8.10. Whoops, sound is broken. Several hours later we're back in business.
Upgraded to 9.10. Whoops, I got fed up and stuck my Windows 7 install disk. Hey look its working again.
No free professional help in every major city in the world
Your seriously arguing that there is no help for Linux...or that Apple support is free [hint: its not stupid], and they also break the laws in the EU/China for offering less support than is mandatory. http://www.ubuntu.com/support Personally though if you really need greater support pay for it its $105...but the vast majority don't.
Interesting, so you don't have the time to work efficiently any more?
I find the Windows 7 GUI to be quite efficient, along with its multi-monitor keyboard shortcuts, thanks. I had a bit of fun with Compiz and the cool multi-desktop things you could pull off, until I realized how much time I was spending trying to get things right.
At this point, Id rather have sane defaults than spend chunks of time trying to fix sound. Its great that others like Linux-on-the-desktop, and I am a fan of *nix on the server, I just dont want to deal with trying to get my favorite program or device to cooperate any more. Between hacks to get Logitech devices (G15, G9) working, hacks to get Ventrilo working, hacks to get my wonky Motherboard wifi working, hacks to get sound working, hacks to get Blackberry working, I kind of had enough. It would be great to live in a world where Linux had all the drivers for all these devices because the vendors played nice; tell me when we get there (and when they stop breaking the sound system every 6 months).
Just a follow up: it occurs to me that it would be kind of nice to run Linux on my home computer for a few days until I decide to install Win 8, and for the moment at least my only "killer app"-- VMWare Workstation-- runs natively on Linux.
What distro do you recommend? Im no dummy with Linux, I just dont want to spend hours trying to get things to a sane place.
The pre-installed Windows 8 bloatware was still there in KDE?
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
You claimed that customizing tools was a waste of time. You haven't done much to convince me of that. So, I have a question for you:
Given a brand new, totally blank PC, how long does it take for you to install Windows, and set it up how you want (including all the programs you need/want and all the customizations you like)?
And how much time do you think it is worth spending "tweaking" if it improves your workflow? How much of a modification to your environment do you think is acceptable?
Onto the specific points:
I find the Windows 7 GUI to be quite efficient, along with its multi-monitor keyboard shortcuts, thanks. I had a bit of fun with Compiz and the cool multi-desktop things you could pull off, until I realized how much time I was spending trying to get things right.
I've never used Compiz for anything serious. It'a probably not very good. But you can still hardly argue that the Windows experience is more consistent since Windows 7 is clearly different from Vista or XP in this regard.
I've been using more or less the same shortcuts since the early 00's.
And by the way, just because you can tewak things endlessly doesn't mean that you have to.
At this point, Id rather have sane defaults than spend chunks of time trying to fix sound.
I'd suggest not breaking sound in the first place. Sound went through a rough patch a while back (I'm sure if you cared, you could dig out some of my /. rants about pulseaudio). These days it just works.
hacks
Well, I have a few random devices and bits of software, like some random logitech wireless keyboard and mouse etc. They all work. I have a webcame which works fine under Linux but has no drivers for anything other than XP. Your point is that if you're careless with purchases then they won't work with your OS of choice (including your favoured one). I won't disagree with that.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
My window manager config is not much changed from the late 90's.
Mine has. Since the late 90's, I picked up another monitor, then rotated one of them 90 degrees, then set that up for both (and upgraded monitors here and there along the way). I got tired of fiddling with X config files to do this kind of thing. I think one thing Windows does really well is support multi-mon, allowing different sized monitors and different resolutions (at least on Vista and later, I remember in the Win2000 era both monitors had to run at the same rez), and dealing with screen rotation.
I'm a regular linux user (at times) so if this is straightfoward to do on Linux, it sure as hell is hidden away somewhere.
I've been steadily virtualizing my linux machines (although to be fair I am doing that to my Windows dev boxes as well).
I use Linux for two reasons.
One other reason I use Mac and a Windows PC is for DVD playback. Is there a legal way for a U.S. resident to play back encrypted (commercial) DVDs? Last I tried a few distros all the codecs were "download from overseas, use at own risk" kind of disclaimer things. I remember a slashdot article not too long ago about how the FBI still considers linux dvd players illegal.
Bitch and moan about how screwed up that is but it doesn't change the situation right now.
What distro do you recommend? Im no dummy with Linux, I just dont want to spend hours trying to get things to a sane place.
I've never used VMWare workstation, so I don't know of it's a bit picky with respect to distros.
I, personally, like Arch. You probably wouldn't. It's designed to be simple from the point of view of someone who expects to make modifications, rather than "just work", though once set up it does that rather well. It meshes well with my idea of how a computer should work.
Ubuntu gets a lot of shit these days but it seems to pretty much just work. I'm running 11.10 since that was current when I bought the laptop, and I haven't taken the time to upgrade.
Modern ubuntu variants some with unity which many people have a strong dislike of. I have no particular love for it, but I'm very picky.
TBH, I'm mostly out of the loop with respect to desktop environments these days since every time I try one, I prefer my own, so I've more or less given up on experimenting.
From what I've heard, Mint is pretty good. It's basically the "just works" bits of ubuntu coupled with a more conservative desktop system. You can always install unity if you like, and it's marginally easier to install unity on mint than mate or Cinnamon on Ubuntu.
TL;DR Probably mint, but I've not tried it myself. I've heard good things about it.
Anyone else got a recommendation?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Not kidding anyone, if you read further up the thread, I am a Mac user. And deleted the Windows 7 emulation, couldnt be bothered to have it updating everytime I thought I needed it.
Caveat: I'm a 99% windows user with just about enough unix experience to traverse a directory structure.
I'm not sure how you quantify faster, there are a lot of things which mean 'faster' to me:
From the initiation of the OS boot process to when my scripts start loading VHDs it takes about 15 seconds. (I use that as a benchmark because that's approximately where the system becomes responsive to a user on a clean install) I've not yet timed Ubuntu for booting, so I can't compare that directly (I don't think loading from the USB is a fair comparison since my OS is loading from RAID0 SSDs)
However, in terms of actual performance once the OS is up and running or installed on a machine... It doesn't seem nearly as fast. Certainly not the freaking Dash application search thing. The UI design on that is horrible. I find myself wondering if I actually clicked it, I assume yes because the rest of the screen dimmed, but I've been having nothing but trouble with it so I typically just launch everything from the terminal now.
I'll be installing Ubuntu directly to the machine later today, so I'll get a good comparison on boot times and a clean install, but in terms of pure 'faster' performance from the user perspective, not based on what I've seen. Anecdotal evidence, but that's all that matters to me because I don't care if it works better in theory or in general, I only care if it works better for me.
The thing is: I WANT to like linux. It's why I have a semi-annual install fest on my machines (which slowly migrate back to Windows over several months), but there is no way I can consider it 'faster' if the instant I run into an issue there isn't an intuitive way to correct the issue. That eats up my time, and that colors my perception of the speed of the system. Right now, Linux seems to be much like a F1 race car. Sure, when it goes, it goes fast, but in between those periods of speed are significant chunks of time where a team of experts is rebuilding, tuning, and prepping the system for it's next sprint.
I know this is probably pretty obvious, but I run into an issue with a machine that is running an ATI R300x video card. Unity does not play well with it. So right now I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with it, and reading the tech threads mentions things like "This issue is known, and may be worked on" Of course, these threads are 2-3 years old, so I wonder if I'm just missing the obvious fix/patch/update/setting which resolves the issue. I haven't found it yet, I haven't looked hard though, but it's already taken up more time than I care to invest when I KNOW I could just install XP and have the system running well in 90 minutes. I'll probably toss some more time into it this weekend, but in the meantime that system will just be my hobby/learning system and that's a big issue for the perception of linux. Again, I bet it will be fast... after it's running (which may just involve me buying a whole new piece of hardware)
Heck, I wanted to install a python environment/stack (enthought), and it took me a good bit of time to just get it to install (chmod to make it executable, proper syntax to run the .sh file) Then I had to double check the appropriate path since that isn't intuitive to me yet (do I put it in /bin? Or somewhere in home?) So I install it, and then I'm told to make sure my PATH is updated... do I do that in .profile, .bashrc, somewhere else? How do I make I make that stick? Once I do it, I'll know it but...
Remember I'm a newbie to this, and thus all of this tweaking around the backend just to get things to the point where they would be faster costs me time, and every minute I spend looking up arcane error messages, or wondering how the hell do I do..., is a minute that I'm thinking "I could be done already if I had just stuck with Windows"
So faster comes to mean a lot of different things, and the fact that a mail client or firefox loads up 0.3s faster than the windows equivalent doesn't mean much (to me).
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It's because SuperFetch data was cleared and had to be rebuilt after SP1 was installed. This was CLEARLY documented in the release notes. At the top no less. A new (better) algorithm was implemented, so it had to be cleared.
Funny. Fucking dumb ass neckbeared (not you) doesn't even understand the application prefetching tech (which linux has no equivalent of) and doesn't read release notes. Then parrots on about how he knows everything and "M$" is shit. Sums up the readership on slashdot.
You complaints are about Unity or Ubuntu not linux.
Maybe once try another distro?
Don't torture yourself with the wacky decisions made in stock Ubuntu. It's not representative of what any experienced Linux user would call "Linux". Try a more sane version like Xubuntu. Heck, try ANYTHING else.
Protect your browser with the Force Safe Search add-on
Do you think that the GP having to uninstall and install various distros and try them out is going to make him feel like linux, as a whole, is somehow FASTER?
Your laptop running Linux (Ubuntu), Chrome (Google), and Flash (Adobe) is unstable and you blame whom exactly?
Just because Google and Adobe do not have their shit together while developing for Linux, does not necessarily mean that Microsoft can take credit for a fine OS.
That said, I run Mac OS and Windows 7 just fine on a dual-boot Mac Pro. Adobe products do suck pretty much anywhere though.
-ted
Their prices seem a bit high, though. Once you start speccing those machines with something other than a Celeron, and adding Bluetooth and reasonably-sized hard drives, you're up in Apple territory.
Their no-monitor desktop comes out to within $50 of an iMac, but with slower CPU and video and no monitor, and their all-in-one is $700 *more* than an iMac with a slower CPU and *much* slower video.
Don't most Linux distributions support Apple hardware these days? (I'm actually asking - I've never tried.)
See, this is exactly why linux/unix are annoying to setup. There's always some hack that needs to be done since I have a dozen different wireless adapters, video cards, etc, etc.
In point one serviscope_minor says:
"A new machine is easy to set up. The install takes however long these things do these days. Customizing is a question of copying my .bashrc, .bash_login, .fvwm2rc, .vimrc, .Xdefaults and .Xmodmap files, which takes around a minute."
No it does not take a "minute." I have no idea where those files are, what they do, how to open it, etc in a linux environment.
Personally I would learn to figure that out but the average user will not.
Unity definitely had a shaky launch. There is much hatred for it, whether it's warranted anymore or not.
Ubuntu's driver issues aren't purely a Linux kernel issue (although it might be in some cases), because they have their own installers to detect what drivers should be downloaded/installed.
The one thing I've always had issues with was sound. Not directly drivers, but in the past PulseAudio was a pain to keep working. This was mostly fine for about 5 years, before the 2010 editions broke things for me on the desktop again. I've had a much more pleasant desktop experience once things are installed properly in a VM. Using VM auto-installers always left me with really broken locale/keymap settings, and manual installations still give me a US keyboard layout during layout, which is bloody useless for the majority of the world.
It's all fixable, but sometimes searching for the solution will give you conflicting threads. It helps knowing how it all works in the background. I'd say Ubuntu was easier to install and use than Windows at some point (several years, in fact), but the quality of the installer has dropped lately. Internationalisation issues, sound and possibly older hardware are the weak points suddenly. Linux has historically been the best solution to squeeze new life out of old gear, so this is a sad development.
If you're installing a server version of any distro, you'll rarely have any issues at all. Of course, if you are doing that you hopefully have the knowledge to sort out the few issues that could crop up ;)
I'll typically start with just a bare server version of Ubuntu for a new computer, then apt-get the desktop environment+package manager frontends I like (both command line and GUI) once I have it recognising the sound hardware. But you shouldn't have to :/
No, Mac is a Volt. Windows 7 is the Prius. Windows 8 is a concept car with two different steering wheels, seven wheels, and two gas tanks -- one for petrol and one for diesel.
I cannot even fathom how shitty a $250 Windows 8 PC must be.
That's the problem.
Despite trying to be efficient by extending the life of old hardware, running a P4 or Sempron 1.8Ghz will consume so much more power than a netbook or nettop over the course of a yr or two that it's actually less efficient than just replacing it with a nettop.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
That's what the Microsoft store is selling, vs 17.5 per hour at the Apple Store in the same location.
That's not consumerism for Microsoft. It's a subsidised operation.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
"I actually like [new_windows-1] - it was a shame what they did to it in [new_windows]."
Facts take all of the premium out of arm waving - T. Reynolds
You're guilty of a massive case of double standards. You're also either very badly mistaken or intentionally misunderstanding.
There's always some hack that needs to be done since I have a dozen different wireless adapters,
I'm talking about configuring user preferences for programs, not setting up hardware. User application preferences and obscure hardware configuration is a totally different kettle of fish. The former is done by the operating system at install time, the latter has to be set up by the user since they are by definition preferences.
No it does not take a "minute."
You're right! It takes even less. I just typed the following:
scp remote_host:{.bashrc,.bash_login,.fvwm2rc,.vimrc,.Xdefaults,.Xmodmap} .
and it took 38 seconds.
I have no idea where those files are, what they do, how to open it, etc in a linux environment.
There preferences for my shell (bash) my window manager (fvwm), my editor (vim) and for old style X11 programs. If you're using bash and vim, you almost certainly know what those files are. If you're not you almost certainly don't need them.
So, it takes 38 seconds to get most of my user preferences from my old machine to my new one. How long does it take to do that under any other operatying system?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
If it'd be possible to get the cost of windows removed, it'd be a good buy for a laptop...I don't want a red cent going to Microsoft.
I know it's hard for people on here to believe, but Windows 8 is actually pretty amazing. I would never go back to Windows 7 at this point.
Same with XBox: Popcorn, check. Wine, check. Snuggled up to wife, check. Lights down, check. Fire up Xbox to watch a movie on Netflix, Xbox needs to be updated, Netflix needs to be updated, no way to skip. WTF?
Thank god I got the Wii fixed. I don't need to buy some stupid subscription to use a service I'm already paying for either.
Most people don't know or don't care about any perceived issues with Windows 8. TFS honestly sounds like nothing more than clickbait. They aren't buying Windows 8. They're buying a want a laptop that comes with Windows 8. If they actually care enough, they can take their existing Win7 license if they have one and put it on the new laptop, or just buy a license.
Most likely wont.
That has got to be the stupidest rationale I've heard thus far.
That actually sounds kinda cool.
See, this is exactly why linux/unix are annoying to setup. There's always some hack that needs to be done since I have a dozen different wireless adapters, video cards, etc, etc.
....
I have no idea where [.bashrc, .bash_login, .fvwm2rc, .vimrc, .Xdefaults and .Xmodmap] are, what they do, how to open it, etc in a linux environment.
They are user profile files that live in your home directory, normally, or in /etc.
Configuring a new system is an exercise in frustration, whether it's Linux or Windows. (Macs may be different?) I chalk this up to my personal preferences being complex, and different from the defaults in _both_ operating systems. It tends to take a day+ for me to configure a new version of windows, since I need to research the tweaks that need to be done (registry changes, helper programs, etc) in order to enact the changes that I want. (I like focus-follows-mouse, don't raise windows, and install a virtual desktop system that doesn't suck.) It took me a while to figure out how to configure Windows 7's interface so that it made more sense to me, but there were always things that frustrated me. (I still haven't upgraded at home.)
In comparison, I now use Ubuntu at work. When I installed it, it had Unity as its interface, and I couldn't stand it. Some like it, but there's lots that I dislike. After spending a week trying to get one alternative desktop interface to work, I switched gears and switched to XFCE (another desktop environment for linux); installing it was simple, and ran overnight. I'll never be able to modify Windows' desktop experience as thoroughly or easily. From there, I had to configure my personal settings (menus here, mouse behavior the way I like it, etc), but __in the future__ I know it will be easier: I know the window manager that I like, and can either copy or recreate my customizations more easily than in Windows.
Wait, how is rebooting being that hard? The "normal" approach is to go to one of the right corners with the mouse (bottom will be closer), then move up to the Settings button, click it, click Power, and click the option you want. That's a gesture and three clicks - not ideal, but a hell of a long way from the claimed level. If you like keyboard shortcuts, you can open the Charms bar (what the gesture does) using the chord Win+C, reducing it to a key chord and three clicks.
Locking the screen can be done using Win+L, as it always has been, or by clicking your name/icon in the upper right of the Start screen, and then choosing Lock. Logging off can be done using the same click on the Start screen, but choosing "Sign Out" instead. Counting opening the Start screen, that's three clicks either way (or one keyboard chord).
There are other approaches, too, including a bunch of old ones that have been around for literally over a decade:
* Put one or more shortcuts / scripts to shutdown.exe on the desktop (with command line specifying the desired options for rebooting or whatever).
* While the Desktop is selected (press Win+D if you have a maximized app open), hit Alt+F4. This will bring up an (circa Win2k) old-style shutdown option list.
* Actually just run shutdown.exe with parameters (from any command line or the Run dialog, which can still be accessed anywhere using Win+R).
* Ctrl+Alt+Del, then click the Power button in the lower right and select your shutdown option.
* Win+L (to lock the session), then click once (to dismiss the lock screen) and click the Power button in the lower right. Only works if using a password.
I'm sure there are some that I'm missing. You can also find scripts and such that will add the power "buttons" to the Start screen as tiles, including some from Microsoft themselves.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
You don't even need to use a corner. Win+C opens the Charms bar. You can (still) use the keyboard to do anything you want in Windows, and while some things take longer than before (the change to Start search, where "Settings" now require an extra action, annoys me), others take the same amount or less (try managing WiFi or volume on Win7 using the keyboard...).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
So wait, am I a twit/moron that should stick to Windows, or should I use Centos?
I started mucking about with Ubuntu because it had one of the larger (largest?) userbases and thus I'm banking on the fact that someone else had the issue before I did, posted, and got a response. You know, what people on forums rant about, I like to use the Search function.
(actually I started mucking about with linux from scratch, then pretty much every major redhat release, some suse, and so on. As I mentioned earlier, I've tried this many times only to discover some personal roadblock like an unsupported card, etc)
I'd like to take the time to learn Linux, and it is my goal because I want to learn it so I can help improve it, even if improving it is just documenting my experience of trying to learn it and using that to improve the user manuals. Ideally I'd love to get into working on drivers, but I'll keep it realistic for now and plan for just improving the documentation.
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My understanding is that Microsoft is working real hard on preventing that.
Also cheaper laptopsmean cheaper BIOS which mean less options, most of those options are probably the ones you most want if you are going to install an alternate OS.
I spent 3-4 hours and about $20 in parts this weekend getting a "cheap" Win7 laptop back into decent condition and it's still not quite right. Not worth the money. The worst issue seems to be the hinges but this one also had crappy heatsink design (requiring a full teardown and a shim). Keyboards and screen connectors also seem to be weak spots. These days I spend the extra money and buy something that will last. I'm liking the Thinkpads but there's other brands too (Dells Latitudes seemed to be pretty decent).
As an IT person looking at a client, yes, that would be something I would consider. As someone not wanting to have two jobs (one at home and one at work), I dont really care what the issue is, I care that installing Windows made my life easier.
For this same reason I am entertaining trying Linux rather than Windows 8 on my new build.
You don't have to download and install the updates every time you boot up. Here are the 4 options: 1) Install updates automatically 2) Download updates and let me choose to install 3) Check for updates but let me choose to download and install 4) Do not download or check for updates automatically
You should change your Windows Updates settings to not force a reboot, and to download but do not install--only notify. That way you could have the updates apply when you are done, do a reboot, they will finish installing, and you can shut down.
My understanding is that if you pause the updates ctrl z, and then reboot, you will possibly break the update system. Certainly dpkg doesnt like it, and I assume yum doesnt either.
Again, my own personal experience, but what got me into some binds was the 'autopilot' nature of it all. Some drivers were loaded which weren't quite compatible with my hardware. The result was that while everything appeared to be working out of the box, it really wasn't something I would consider 'up and running'. Figuring out which devices were working well (and not just reporting well) is my next task.
I also got into a hell of a bind during the install when I installed to the wrong HDD. The first time through I enabled LVM and the installer balked at removing or overwriting the installation on that HDD. My understanding is that GParted can't handle LVs yet, but it completely blocked my installation until I booted up the liveCD, learned how LVs work in linux, and manually removed them via the terminal. After that GParted could finish the process.
It's just a trick of guided installation vs autopilot installation. Autopilot is great when it works, but when it doesn't it can be really intimidating to fix.
I suppose the real issue is that Ubuntu is the first exposure to Linux for a lot of people, and while I'm willing to put up with it since I'm doing this because I LIKE troubleshooting problems to learn a system, it's really easy to turn off someone who isn't really into it.
Ironically I've found some of the feature-sparse versions of linux a lot friendlier to start out on. Sure, it isn't a "windows alternative desktop", but simple functionality with the capability to gradually add in features as needed seems less risky than the Ubuntu everything at once approach.
I may try Mint tonight, since I hear that's a much more configurable or simpler environment.
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> I still spend a lot of time hunting for answers to questions that start "How in the fuck do you...."?
That's pretty common. I bail out Windows users over that sort of thing. I even end up bailing out iPad users over the same exact sort of thing.
You are probably confusing "it's different" with inherent flaws. You are also discounting whatever effort you've put into what you are already using.
The product you cannot avoid gets a lot of slack that no other product would (including Macs).
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Your entire post sounds like a wannabe power user looking for problems where none exist because most of the rest of us don't try to over complicate things. That even goes for long time Unix users.
Unix means lazy, not masochist.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The installation is just an example from my experience as a new user.
The issue I had with the command line installation? Trivial once you learn how to use it, but a 30 minute time investment the first time I needed to do it. The question is, how many of those 30 minute investments is a typical user willing to accept before they run out of patience and revert back to Windows?
There are a lot of reasons why I'm forcing myself to learn Linux, and it is important to note that I said "Forcing myself to learn Linux". There is a real cost for anyone learning to use a new OS. If they give up before fully invested in the new OS, it's a downhill frictionless path back to Windows. So when people advocate switching to Linux because it is 'Faster' or more 'Secure', or configurable, it isn't just enough for them to be slightly better; it is important to show that not only is Linux better, but that it is so much better that it's worth investing a significant chunk your time to make the switch stick.
Hell, it's why I won't touch the new versions of MS office and the damned Ribbon. I'm quite sure that if I stuck to it, I'd get used to it, but I have work that I know how to do now. If it isn't sufficiently broke...
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"Live tiles turned start screen into “incessantly blinking, unruly environment that feels like dozens of carnival barkers yelling at you simultaneously."
"Give me the zen garden calm of Steve Jobs' "less is more" approach to interface design any day."
These are two best quotes from this article and the comments section.
Unity Dash is the slowest Linux UI I know. Try Kubuntu, Lubuntu, or Xubuntu instead if response is essential. This info is readily available to newbies on StackExchange & Ubuntu forums too.
Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
Wannabe power user? Well yeah.
But a normal user would have quit when the first install failed at a blinking cursor after POST. Many first time Linux installs are on handmedown hardware so proper handling of a bad disks or outdated cards is kind of important.
If a newb shouldn't try LVM because it can mess up the installer, it shouldn't be listed as standard install option. Stick it in the advanced options like custom partitions.
So yeah, I'm a wannabe power user. Who the hell else sets out to learn Linux?
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Mine has. Since the late 90's, I picked up another monitor, then rotated one of them 90 degrees, then set that up for both (and upgraded monitors here and there along the way). I got tired of fiddling with X config files to do this kind of thing.
Are you talking about X configs or window manager configs. They are ver different things. I'm sure the X11 config on the SGI and IRIX machines is nothing like the almost nonexistent xorg.conf on my Linux machine.
My WM config hasn't changed much. It did mostly the sane thing already when xinerama was introducd, and I modified some shortcut keys to shove windows to a specific monitor.
I'm a regular linux user (at times) so if this is straightfoward to do on Linux, it sure as hell is hidden away somewhere.
Really? If you have an nvidia card, then run nvidia-settings, otherwise run your faviurite xrandr gui. Like arandr, for example.
One other reason I use Mac and a Windows PC is for DVD playback. Is there a legal way for a U.S. resident to play back encrypted (commercial) DVDs?
No idea, I'm not American. The way the law is written, you probably do 5 illegal things before breakfast anyway. Why worry about this one which never even been ruled on definitevly.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
wouldn't Windows 8 be something like this?: http://bit.ly/QK6L7M
"the fax machine is nothing but a waffle iron with a phone attached to it." - Grandpa Simpson
The python thing was for a class, and they use a very fickle grader, so I was trying to use the exact setup they directed.
But yeah, normally I'd have just used the built in stuff. I'm glad I had to do it their way, to learn, and hell, I'm glad they listed a Linux install as an option in the first place. Otherwise I'd have just stuck with doing it on Windows to avoid complications.
The work spaces are a pleasant way to code over windows though.
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He's right - to an extent - I had similar problems, where working things broke on new releases and you had a lot of WTF? moments, but I chalk it up to always wanting the latest and greatest without letting other people "beta" test it. Ubuntu has their six month release cycle, ready or not. I did switch to Debian and I'm a lot happier.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Here's a windows counterpart.
1. how do I change the look of the login screen in windows xp? vista/7?
2. how do I get the network adapter names in network neighborhood to line up with the actual hardware devices?
3. How do I get windows to enumerate ALL of the capabilities/modes/refresh rates of my monitor?
4. How do I get windows to quit being so chatty on the network?
5. How do I track services dependencies so that I can know which ones I can safely disable and which not? with each release this has gotten harder and harder.
6. How do I track changes made to the system by installers and the programs they install? (hint it's not system restore).
7. How do I manage directshow and vfw codecs in a sane manner?
8. How do I clear ALL history from the entire system?
9. How do I get drive letters to hold to specific devices? (especially removable drives)
10. Why does directx 9 app 1 work in vista, but not 7, while directx 9 app 2 works in 7, but not vista, yet both work in xp (with the same hardware)? the compatibility tab is a nice feature, but it doesn't always work. That leaves me with juggling dlls around to build an environment the executable likes. In linux, it's generally a recompile away...maybe some simple code patching.
See these are some of the things that a unix guy would want to know, and in windows, they're non-intuitive pains in the ass. Some of these are solvable with a little tweaking in the gui, others require little utils to be searched for and downloaded off the internet and/or a ton of clunky registry editing. Editing the registry makes editing config files in vim easy by comparison, even for a newb who's never touched either. In the most extreme cases, major tweaking requires a custom install disk just like linux. Windows really isn't any more or any less complex than unixlike systems, but it is different. It boils down to what you're used to putting up with.
I'm not even saying it's flawed. I've run into issues to be sure, but that's the nature of the beast.
I was just saying that "It's faster" isn't really so true as to be a selling point people should use to advocate using Linux. There are plenty of other points that are a lot better to use instead.
I like to tinker, and thus eventually break things. So for me, an OS that let's me get down into the nuts and bolts is great! For my parents? Not so much. For them I'm actually going for a just works approach. I'm hoping to get a VM running, and let them be hardware agnostic. Basically a slightly more formal version of a liveCD.
If someone criticizes Linux, don't take it as a personal attack. It's a necessary part of the improvement process. Even if a criticism is off base its still important to understand why someone had that perception. Maybe the guides work for experienced users but mislead neophytes? I've certainly made that mistake in the past.
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The fact that Homer looks eerily like Steve Ballmer is the icing on the cake. I tip my hat to you, sir.
I agree completely. However, we aren't trying to convince Linux users to switch to Windows. Right now, Windows has no learning curve from the windows user perspective. You can't really say one side has problems of a similar scale than the other when someone is already ON one side.
It doesn't really cost the Windows user anything to maintain the status quo and remain a Windows user, so the eventual payout of switching to Linux has to be great enough to offset that initial investment.
It's the exact same situation for almost any product that is better, but not ubiquitous. Consider geothermal heating for my home. That would be great to have, I'd love to install it, but is it worth a $30k investment right now?
And thus Linux. Great once you get invested, but a high cost in time now.
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right but you paid in the time spent learning windows/dos. if you don't want/need to upgrade or change your toolset, that's fine. most people are like that, but don't think for a minute that windows is perfection just because it's popular. then there's also the question of whether time would be saved in the long run by switching environments (to/from windows to/from something else). That depends on what you're doing with the machine.
For me, doing stuff with python is FAR easier on linux. In fact, most of the opensource toolsets and libraries simply work better there. The win32 ports are inbred cousins by comparison.. There are exceptions, but this seems to be the case.
You're in serious need of some courses in reading comprehension. I'm actually a little uncertain as to whether you are being serious.
Let me help you out here. Did you see ANY mention of licence in what I wrote? BSD=Berkeley SOFTWARE distribution, it's refering to the bsd operating system. I'm guessing you missed the irony part, since linux is a kernel and BSD is the whole package.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Given a brand new, totally blank PC, how long does it take for you to install Windows, and set it up how you want
Just did this on my laptop back in june-- dont remember why. Took all of about 1-3 hours to get completely in my zone, and it WASNT for things like "trying to get sound working"; it was mostly for installing the programs I want which takes about as long on either OS. Cant recall any major customizations I did other than SSD opts, moving the taskbar to the right and switching to mini-icons, changing the power policy, and changing what stuff is always visible in sys tray.
Again-- I actually like the Win7 interface, thats the reason I went for the upgrade from XP.
Bull. Blackberrys require installing a program off of sourceforge called barry-utils. G15s require a different program. G9s require yet a third to fully access all the buttons. Many wifi cards historically required downloading the firmware. ATI graphics are notorious for not "just works"-ing. Even Intel NICs had huge issues (I believe kernel?) in Ubuntu 2 years ago (but if it was kernel as I recall, it would be all distros that shipped with that kernel before it was fixed).
Youre calling the wrong guy a "redmond hack"-- I love linux in many ways, but Ive used it too much to have any of these naieve "its perfect and has no flaws" assessments of it.
Im going to bet you reboot your desktop linux system to install new kernels, and to test new bootloader installations.
Im also going to bet that you dont have the ability to selectively apply patches using the default package manager. For better or worse, Windows does updates quite differently which allows programs to keep just working regardless of what updates are done to the system. It has downsides, but I rather like that a random apt-get upgrade wont break my music player or vmware client.
If it's shiny, new, and looks cool - it'll sell in the USA, no matter the product. All it took for me was the plethora of YT vids showcasing the
crappy "Surface" technology, and 1st time firing up of the machine taking 8-12 minutes or more. Then I read that the clickon keyboard is tearing apart
with less than a month of usage.
What did M$ do? They "tried" to jump in on the Apple and Droid bandwagon and sorely missed. W8 SUCKS!!! and the consumer doesn't know how to use a PC
anyway, so why and the hell would they know how to use it with a touch interface (not intuitive, slow and clunky)
Better options under the tree this year are a Nexus or iPad4 (skip the iPad Mini) - and forego the wave of surface and W8 toys.
IF you want a rock-solid laptop on good technology(OS-wise) & hardware, try a MacbookPro or get a cheap W8 PC and fire up Ubuntu or another flavor of Linux -it'll save you the pain.
Microsoft's big clients who buy millions of dollars of licenses are in the drivers seat at Microsoft.
If you've ever been a large enterprise client of Microsoft, then you know that they treat you like gold.
If you have a nice shiny new computer from a major manufacturer Windows 7 runs just fine. That's what the enterprise clients are running. So will Windows 8.
There is no reason at all for them to support your cobbled together old PC at a rock bottom price. They don't need you.
If you honestly believe they built Windows 8 strictly to appeal to consumers, you need to go back to business school. Most likely, a large enterprise client (The Military perhaps) is why we have Windows 8, and the whole consumer hoop-la is just another revenue stream - but not the primary one...
It's not the size of the processor, it's how many units it plugs into.
I've thought about it, and I think Windows RT and the restrictions are all about Office, and really nothing else.
Microsoft sees OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice taking market share from the real linchpin of the Windows monopoly, Office. The reason is simply that it's cheaper. So, they find a way to preserve their Office monopoly by making a version of Windows that will only run Office. In order to compete with a regular PC with OpenOffice.org, they make the hardware cheaper, thus squeezing the hardware margins, but leaving their software margins largely intact. Now the consumer can get a machine that does everything they really want (Office and Internet) for cheap, and it supports Microsoft Office formats "perfectly." Because of API restrictions, users can't get OpenOffice.org to run on these new, cheap computers even if they wanted to. (Not that they would want to, as "real" Microsoft Office is included "for free.")
Windows RT is about monopoly maintenance for the Office monopoly, plain and simple.