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School Shooting Prompts Legislation To Study Violent Video Games
New submitter seepho writes "Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) has introduced a bill directing the National Academy of Sciences to lead an investigation to determine what impact violent video games have on children. Senator Rockefeller commented, 'Recent court decisions demonstrate that some people still do not get it. They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better. These court decisions show we need to do more and explore ways Congress can lay additional groundwork on this issue. This report will be a critical resource in this process.'"
This legislation was prompted by reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was a gamer. A draft of the bill is available online.
When you have an anti-religious, secular bureaucracy and secular judiciary seeking to drive God out of public life, something fills the vacuum. And that something, you know, I don’t know that going from communion to playing war games in which you practice killing people is necessarily an improvement.
Huckabee:
We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability?
My work here is dung.
its not fake pretendy guns that are killing ppl, another fine example of answering the WRONG question
And watches the same movies, and listens to the same music. Yet we're the only ones with a mass murder fetish, and the shittiest mental healthcare. Media isn't the problem.
Is Rockefeller going to distribute copies of his driver's license with a Batman photo pasted over his face, too?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
...right along with gun owners, we are at the twilight of those two industries unless we put this to a stop. Logical people know video games and guns don't cause violence - crazy assholes do. But as long as we're willing to be vilified, we will be picked to pieces in the chaos.
Endless war, militarized police, drone strikes, torture, gangster lifestyles, and overall general violence, it is all a contributing factor to devaluing life.
But let's ignore the real problem: mental illness. Lets blame guns and video games.
Adam Lanza's mother received nearly $25,000 a month in alimony, maybe the should study the connection between receiving ludicrous amounts of money for no reason and violence in children as well.
The shooter played Star Craft. Not a FPS, not some blood and gore style of game, but a strategy game. Its about as violent as chess (ok, it has a bit more blood then most chess games).
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
The investigation into video game effects on children is based on the acts of a twenty year old?
We need to stop extending childhood into mid-adulthood before "think of the children" applies to AARP members.
There have been reports that Adam Lanza obsessively played Call of Duty and Starcraft before he went on a shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., last Friday.
Starcraft? Seriously? That breeds killers?
A tragedy gets played out across the news for days on end, providing a unique window to grab the collective attention of the American people and enact meaningful change ... and THIS is the best this douchecanoe can come up with?
...of why these mass murders are not being caught by the mental health system? Before we jump to conclusions and condemn the tools used by these insane criminals, we need to find out WHY someone would want to commit mass murder and WHY the mental health system is not catching these people long before they commit these acts of murder.
"They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons."
Classic literature and Saturday morning cartoons are, in many cases, bloody as hell. And people have gotten plenty hysterical about them in the past.
But hoarding guns and spending your time on a shooting range apparently isn't.
This looks more like a case of "shit happened, we need to blame somebody" than actually trying to solve anything. If a violent video game is going to turn someone violent it's more likely as a result of a preexisting condition.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
is how nobody understands that in roman times, medieval times, heck, even just 100 years ago, mankind was peaceful and loving
ever since these video games came out, murder has gone through the roof /sarcasm, for the sarcasm impaired
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It's not guns, not games, movies or anything else like that. It's (a) people with mental problems that are so bad that it drives them to kill, and (b) stupid decisions that increase the chances of exploiting those drives (like the mother of something with problems specifically teaching him to use guns, and not adequately securing them).
Good, so we can finally put that myth to rest. Or by "study" do they mean "find some evidence that shows a correlation between them no matter how faulty the logic may be"? I'm guessing it's supposed to be the latter. After all, you can't earn many political points by commissioning a study that doesn't allow you to create a scapegoat or enact some laws to crack down on the "problem", and the fact he is proposing this now means it is, most definitely, a political move to create the appearance of action (never mind most of the time what should be done is nothing, because bad shit happens sometimes).
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
If there is an actual link between real world violence and violent video games (and I am skeptical of that) then maybe the violent video games merely reflect the world we live in. Saying violent video games cause real violence might be like saying that Brain Injury causes Football. (American type football.) After all, a link has been established between football and brain injury.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Really? Julius Caesar played violent video games? Ghenghis Khan? Al Capone?
Legislation passes, researchers arm themselves to the teeth, accidentally snuff themselves during oral hygiene operations.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Hey America, what if we started censoring movies that air on daytime TV with a kill count on the bottom of the screen. Sex is bad, but violence is OK. That's the message we send our kids. Video games are the least violent form of entertainment you can choose from. Our National sport is bashing people's heads in.
has anything better to do. Who cares about the fiscal cliff?
Preventing events like this is equivalent to trying to stop lightning strikes. In fact death by lightning is more common.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
We have bloody idiots who are standing in the way of actually dealing with these problems by promoting ridclous scapegoats to push an agenda that doesn't even make an ounce of sense when even remotely scrutinised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers
1949: Unruh, Howard Barton, 28; 13 killed, 3 injured
1958: Starkweather, Charles, 19 & Fugate, Caril Ann, 14; 10 killed.
1984: Huberty, James Oliver, 41; 21 killed, 19 injured.
Violent video games, right?
> Parents, pediatricians and psychologists know better
Right, that's why circumcision is still routinely practiced in the U.S.
Like everything else, follow the money, honey
Aren't you past karma whoring with a sub million UID?
Your comment will get a shit load of comments from the peanut gallery and you'll be mod'ed up to +5 something.
But you offer nothing. Nothing to this thread. No real facts - just comments from moronic politicians..
The fact is that no one knows why this disturbed person or any of those fucked up people really did what they did. All there is are two bit opinions from video games to assault rifles to religion to whatever the bug-a-boo the the author doesn't like.
And yet, no one can make a difference.
You know what? Shut the fuck up. And the rest of you too. Just shut the fuck up until you have data and a real solution.
Fuck you.
... as long as it does not stop the gun industry from selling assault rifles to any crackpot that walks through the door. Some things never change.
See also: list of books not allowed in school/public libraries
Yes, the rest of the world plays the same violent video games, same movies, same music. And yes, the rest of the world may actually take care of their mentally ill. But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world.
We have the mostest, biggest, baddest guns.
(Baddestest?)
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
...by funding a study that determined how the Rockefellers have conspired against humanity for their own greedy and nefarious purposes.
Not an entire culture of the glorification of violence. Start paying attention to how much violence, murder, idolization of 'evil people', fighting, and general confrontational activities people are subjected to every day. What movies have you watched, tv shows, news, music and yes, video games in the last year? How many of them had violence, killing (even animated or non human) and conflict? I bet the vast majority because that is what makes 'interesting' consumption to the masses. It's hardly a revelation that constant bombardment of killing wouldn't affect people.
Of course, showing a boob would cause instant drama, huge fines, wailing and knashing of teeth about how to protect our children. Usual remedies are to attack or kill the people who caused it. See a pattern here?
Of the many contributing causes to American violence, I don't think video games are an especially high priority. But neither do I think the possibility can be ignored. These attrocities have to end, and we should all be willing to consider all potential causes. I love video games, but if a thorough and valid scientific inquiry shows a causal or aggravating relationship between violent video games and real-world, violence, then I would be willing to accept restrictions on sales to minors.
I will be insistent that the NRA and other pro-gun groups contribute constructively to the debate and possible solutions, and be willing to compromise, and gamers need to be part of the conversation too.
By all means, let's not over react, and knee-jerk reactions are not helpful, on either side of the question. But there are no sacred cows.
Cue every ghoul who wants to exploit a tragedy to further their favorite agenda. In approximately the order I've heard them, it was...
Have I missed any?
[*]They didn't have that class when I was in school.
Why aren't we looking at keeping the crazy people themselves off the streets? As someone who has known someone that was mentally unstable and worked with their doctors to have them committed it's next to impossible to have an unstable person committed involuntarily. Typically the best you can do is 3 days, and beyond that nothing can be done unless they are an /immediate/ risk to themselves or others.
The standard needs to be changed to indeterminable risk to themselves or others, as this would make all the difference in the world in keeping unstable people off the streets and the rest of society safe. The standards are simply too stringent and by closing the institutions we have gotten rid of all of the economies of scale that allowed unstable people to have access to the physical and mental health care that they need. The result now is that the mentally unfit are homeless and society isn't protected from the unstable. The idea that this is somehow more 'humane' is ludicrous.
Yes, because video games are totally the only thing violent in our society. /news/, totally don't display graphic violence at all. Nope.
Books, movies, cartoons and hell, even the
The problem is never what's on the screen, it's the mental idiot that decides he should bring fantasy into reality.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Children in Britain play exactly the same video games that American children play and they don't run around shooting each other all the time. America has a culture of gun violence and until that changes these terrible events will keep happening.
media is the problem alright, only - it's not the videogame media. the media which really is to blame is TV and the so-called "News" programming they run.
Let's try to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of crazy people, hmmm?
Even the NRA shouldn't have a problem with people properly securing their firearms.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Utmeskiten.
As a gamer, I would welcome any real study that examines the link between video game violence and real world violence. That said, a study that has as its aim the goal of finding such a link is worthless. And I suspect, based on Rockefeller's quote, "They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better," tells me that the answer has already been decided, and that any study undertaken at Rockefeller's behest will not accept "there is no link" as a possible outcome.
It's like watching a broken record player.
Here's an idea... How about researching what drove him off the deep end? Or how he managed to amass such crazy weapons so easily?
But no, instead we just get another round of political masturbation where Politicians try to make it look like they're doing something without actually doing such.
*facepalm*
Yes, the religious right does that -- and the extreme left does it too. You don't have to look at only one extreme to see all the hate being generated. Your post is an example of yet another one-sided hate spewing viewpoint.
... or both.
Our recent politics on all sides have generated the idea that anyone who disagrees with the One True Viewpoint is either Evil or Stupid
A pox on all your houses.
The way to combat such stupid, ignorant hate is to stop doing it!
But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world. We have the mostest, biggest, baddest guns. (Baddestest?)
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age. The type of weapons that are incredibly difficult to acquire in the US (for those of us not obscenely wealthy, anyway)
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world.
Indeed, and you already pointed it out:
the rest of the world may actually take care of their mentally ill.
There's the real issue at hand.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Every time something like this happens, they try to blame video games for it. Other things too, yes, but one of the main targets is video games. I know the point is to pretend they've accomplished something, but people see that, right? It's like professional wrestling... we all know it's mostly soap opera mixed with some jumping around in speedos. How long can they keep this up? Imagine the time and money wasted for these people that are doing this. Think about all of the other issues that have been ongoing that they are ignoring to rush for the attention grab. I would like to think these people are not really that out of touch with the public that they think something like Starcraft would make him want to murder innocent children. If they are that out of touch, it's time they retire from politics.
FTA:
"'Recent court decisions demonstrate that some people still do not get it. They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better."
If all the parents, pediatricians, and psychologists already *know* that violent video games are causing violence in children, why bother wasting money on a study to show what we already know?". I am not sure the Senator or most politicians in general realize what the point of a scientific study is. You do it when you *don't* know they answer and want to find out, not when you have already decided what the answer is and fabricate a study to support your prior conclusion. You have to use like real science and real statistics and stuff to ensure your study is as objective and free from bias as possible so that the answers are somewhat close to being true rather than merely supporting your position.
What is shocking to me is not that people would try to use BS science for political reasons. It is that they are not even trying to make it look like real science. The only reason I can think of why they don't is that they don't even know what real science looks like, so they can't even fake it.
It's like we have a bunch of people running the country that are at the intellectual level of mediocre high school students practicing to be adults through mock trials and model united nations.
Aren't you past karma whoring with a sub million UID?
Yeah, man, one of these days I am going to hit the bank with all this karma I've accrued and do ... um, buy that ... uh, what exactly does that get me again? Screw it, moderate my post to -1, I don't care. I do care that some people are informed of more batshit insane politicians. I would love to see Jay Rockefeller, Gingrich and Huckabee never hold office again.
But you offer nothing. Nothing to this thread. No real facts - just comments from moronic politicians..
The origin of this story is moronic comments from politicians. Here are more. They are full of them. What I didn't do was attach my own two cents to that post in the interest of just presenting information about our elected officials who will, in the end, set these laws.
And yet, no one can make a difference.
What kind of attitude is this?
You know what? Shut the fuck up. And the rest of you too. Just shut the fuck up until you have data and a real solution.
You hear that, everyone? You cannot discuss solutions. No discussing whatsoever. Do not repeat what your politicians are saying so people are informed. You can only talk if you have a 100% solution and therefore no one can talk right now. Solutions will just magically appear with no discussion and you should not know what your elected representatives are saying about the matter!
Fuck you.
Ah, sweet sweet rebuttal from presenting statements and information. I love you too!
My work here is dung.
America's first and deadliest school massacre - in 1927 - no games or guns involved. Games don't make people crazy, and if guns are "controlled", mass destruction can still be utilized, and it will make it harder for law abiding citizens to stop them.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Saying this man killed his mother and then a bunch of children and teachers because he played video games is about and logical as saying he did it because he ate fatty foods, so we need shut down all McDonald's. There is no link whatsoever, beyond the fact that somebody wants to milk the events and the heightened emotions it is generating for their own crusades. Tighter gun control would not have stopped a determined and unstable man from stealing guns to go killing. Even if there had been no guns, Im sure he could have found another way. Hell, this was the 2nd deadliest elementary school killing because the deadliest used a bomb.
This really is getting ridiculous. I am getting really tired of all the politicians and lobby groups trying to spin this tragedy to their own agenda.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
As a philosopher, I would assert that some pieces of classic literature can be very dangerous: children may learn how to think.
Not that I have a high degree of confidence in the Federal government's ability to assess threats. After all, even without this massacre, statistically one person dies to gun violence every 20 minutes in the USA. That's one Sandy Hook massacre worth of people before I get up for work, every day. But I can't buy buckyballs because 0 children died after swallowing them. Good going there, Federal government! Way to "protect the children!" I'm sure filing a suit against the buckyballs guys will surely save 0 more children over not filing that suit! Oops! 20 minutes have passed! I guess that means another person just got shot!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The cause wasn't that the shooter played video games, the cause wasn't that the shooter had shot a gun before. The cause was that this guy seriously had some mental issues. You can't fix humanity.
Look at China, they've got some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They've got censorship of nearly everything and yet this happens: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248054/China-stabbing-22-children-elderly-woman-stabbed-outside-primary-school-Chinese-knifeman.html
You've got to strike at the root cause which is the mental issues. Not guns, not knives, not baseball bats, not video games, not comic books, etc.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
And so is another billion people in the world that don't go outside killing each other.
Actually, psychologists know better... only the ones that know that is better a kid that relieves its anger on a shooter than the one that keep it growing until they find a real gun.
End of line...
Guns don't kill people!.
But more guns will help kill people who kill people.
So we need to legislate fewer games where people use guns to kill people who kill people! Also those games where people don't kill people, because they're gatway games. We also need to allow people to carry guns to kill the bad guys!
But movies are okay. It's a different kind of violence. As long as they don't show a woman's nipple.
I think I understand the position now.
We have an unhealthy fascination with guns in America. It stems from our enshrinement of that oh so important "right" to own a gun. We will never touch the 2nd amendment but we keep chipping away the 1st 4th and 9th.
This is yet another case of certain people using a given tragedy to push their agenda.
The folks who already have an anti-gaming viewpoint are always going to use a given media event like this to push for bans on / studies on video games.
Last time I checked, it wasn't a troubled teenager taking out their peers, it was a legal adult slaughtering defenseless children. You can study the effects of violent video games on children all you want, but it's not going to address a situation like this. Maybe someone might have legitimately wondered about the connection between the Columbine shooters and video games, but I believe the studies that came out then pretty much said that "batshite f-tards will be batshite f-tards with or without video games" (I may be paraphrasing a little)
Ok, so I don't know either, but just really??? sick bastard ADULT shoots children and someone's proposing studies of video games effects on kids? Yeah, yeah, this guy was a kid once, but honestly - it's pretty obvious that this is yet another "We gotta do SUMTHIN'" knee-jerk response that politicians feel the need to whip out so they can seem like they're taking action... without actually threatening the interests of their donors.
For the record, it's my opinion that anti-gun folks are pretty much doing the same thing - they're going to take every opportunity to push gun laws regardless of the actual situation - they do it because it's how you move an agenda forward - throw it up against the wall enough and something will stick sooner or later.
The Digital Sorceress
Move to Iraq, anon.
School shooting have occurred every few years right back to 1853 in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
Violent computer games are less than 20 years old. Study complete, now where is my government grant... :)
IMHO anyone who wants to "blame" something that has no will of its own for the acts committed by something that does should not be included in the conversation.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Canadians manage to watch movies and play video games without shooting each other. Regardless of the reason why someone picks up a gun, the problem is that they are still able to get one when they are not fit to have one. Issues about mental health and culture SHOULD be addressed, but I think the NRA and other pro-gun people are going to use those things as diversions to the real issue.......keeping automatic weapons away from most people.
Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) is introducing a bill to beat dead unicorns.
Besides, research has already been performed. Unless there's some real need to conduct yet another study, the funding is better placed elsewhere.
Who cares what effects violent games have on children? If you don't want your kid playing such a game, then don't buy it for them! It's that easy. Plus it's not like they can do it in secret.
The Internet King? I wonder if he could provide faster nudity.
As grisly as the Newton shooting was, more children die each year from non-therapeutic, infant circumcision. These are deaths that could be completely eliminated if parents stopped subjecting their healthy children to genital mutilation.
Furthermore, there has been no research to determine how this barbaric, unnecessary, sexually diminishing surgery psychologically impacts the men who survive it. What are the long-term ramifications of subjecting newborns to excruciating pain on their genitals? How does it affect their ability later in life to trust? To love? To empathize with others? To express their emotions?
Is it sheer coincidence that we see so much violence come from the two largest groups (Americans and Muslims) that subject their children to genital mutilation?
Instead of people taking responsibility for their actions, let's blame something else! Its the high cap magazines! No! Its video games! No! Its movies! Its all guns! Its assault rifles! Its the Democrats! Its the Liberals!
For fucks sake, talk to your kids. Teach them hobbies. Show them from right and wrong. If they have mental issues, sort them out. Take the proper precautions like locking up weapons they may use to hurt themselves and others. I have a four year old at my house. The Mossberg is locked up separately from the ammo. My handgun is in a place he can't reach. When he gets a few years older he will be taught the guns are, at least where I live, a way of life. We all open carry. We reload our ammo. We go to the range often. Teach them the responsibility of owning a firearm. It all start with the parenting.
Instead of gun control or video game control, how about we just focus on lunatic control?
Someone needs to stop this research!
The first study of violent video games was never completed because the researchers ended up killing each other after being exposed to just one minute of play.
Think of the researchers!
"This legislation was prompted by reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was a gamer."
Surprisingly, there aren't any reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was carrying guns.
I suggest getting people to watch this video. That, among other things, is brought up.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
"Oh no, not again."
So you blame the tool instead or the person using the tool?
I play a lot of video games, listen to loud music, watch violent movies, and all of that.
I also own a goodly number of knives and swords.
You don't see me going around stabbing people.
It has nothing to do with the tools available and everything to do with my own mental stability.
Blaming gun availability is still an attempt to avoid the real issue.
If guns were not available another tool would have been found. It's the mind behind the tool, the intent driving it, and not the tool that is to be feared.
If you want to rail against gun ownership and push for more gun laws, I suggest you consider putting your energy elsewhere as incidents like these, though tragic, are rare and there are many more deaths caused by other things like traffic accidents you can advocate to reduce more deaths than stopping civilians from owning guns would.
Then Video Games, but nothing said about violent movies. When Video Games are banned, they will ban toy guns, or any type of violent toys. Will they just give everyone a pill to remove violence from out thoughts?
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
as long as it comes with a 100% ban on personal gun possession.
While at one time they used to issue 50 rounds of ammunition along with it they no longer do. And 90%+ of the ammo that was issued has been returned when requested. You can't buy more, and purchasing another firearm of that type is impossible, and handguns are very difficult. Hunting rifles and shotguns are about it. So a society that has been shown to be responsible is given a gun, and one that is showing it isn't should not be. Trust is not only something you have to earn, but you have to be able to keep. Our forefathers earned it, the current batch not so much.
This has nothing to do with video games. The kid was mentally unstable and his mother trained him in the use of firearms. If that is not a recipie for disaster I don't know what is so stop blaming video games. Maybe not teaching a mentally challenged individual how to use firearms is the message to take away from this tradegy.
Chris Sheppard
If you want to have a reasoned debate you cannot selectively use facts.
Wikipedia tells me that for the past five years, Switzerland has only permitted 2,000 of those with military issue weapons to store ammunition at home. Prior to that the ammunition was strictly audited. It's hard to kill using a gun with no bullets. Prior to 2007, the auditing requirement would make use of the weapon rare.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese. Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
When bringing up Switzerland in a discussion about gun control, you're being dishonest unless you also point out a few things:
1) For someone to have a gun, they need to serve three months in the military where they'll be evaluated and trained
2) The population of Switzerland is smaller than that of New York City. Sample size matters.
3) The poverty in Switzerland is half that of the United States.
And finally, Switzerland's voters are increasingly in favor of tighter regulations and ending the military-gun-at-home policy.
I'm also a bit unclear about some of the ammunition laws in Switzerland. While guns are easy to come by, it seems the ammo is more controlled than it is in the United States. And, the free ammo that the militia get only contains 50 rounds, sealed and numbered.
-David
Switzerland issues fully automatic weapons but not ammunition (with some exceptions). In the event of an emergency the citizens need to get their ammo from an armory.
Everyone seems to leave that important detail out when discussing the Swiss.
Where have you found an extreme left even existing in the United States? The Communist Party USA has like, 50 members.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Ban video games with guns, while letting everyone keep real guns? Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm not American, but I've worked there for a while. And back home I keep up with the news about the US.
I fail to see that hate-spreading-left you talk about. All I see is crazy people from the Republican Party spreading hate and intolerance, promoting ignorance, forcing their warped puritan religious views on others, but promoting extreme selfishness, against the very basis of the religion they claim to love so much.
Most of those people would be considered mentally ill where I live.
Precisely because they joined the military/militia, which is a voluntary but prevalent aspect of their culture. The rifle they keep is the rifle they were issued. The ammunition is also issued, audited and regulated by the government in relatively small quantities. Carry permits require additional justification and are generally issued to only those in personal security.
The Swiss do have a high percentage of gun ownership, but they also have a culture of responsibility. You're not going to walk into a "Carrefour" and pick up a rifle.
I played a lot of Carmageddon in high school. I had better just hand my keys in...
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
Oh, and if you look at the list of homicides for 100k people with guns Switzerland is the next highest "western" nation after the US. 2.97 to .77. ~ 4:1. Granted, not too bad. Now compare that to Japan which has about the most strict laws of .01, or 1:77 of Switzerland. Which is the larger impact?
http://bluntobject.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/violencegraph1.jpg
anyone got a continuation of this famous graph?
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age. The type of weapons that are incredibly difficult to acquire in the US (for those of us not obscenely wealthy, anyway)
Switzerland's gun control is very different from ours, but is more strict. For one, while they issue automatic rifles to militia members (generally at the age of 20), those weapons are either returned or converted to semi-automated at the end of militia service, at the age of 30. There is no longer any at-home government-issued ammunition. Purchase and distribution of ammunition is highly controlled; for the most part it's only available at shooting ranges and only for use at those ranges. A carry permit is required to have the gun in public at all, and generally you can only get those if you work in security.
I find the school shootings to be similar to the rashes of teen suicides that follow the media coverage of a teen suicide. There are lots of other teens that decide to copy the first suicide to get the attention that they did. The media got smart and rarely covers teen suicide like it used to to help cut down on the copy-cats. The school shootings are just the new version of that. The person is thinking of suicide and wants the attention. Regular suicide won't get it, but the shooting spree suicide gets lots of national coverage, which one would you choose. When the media stops covering the school shootings, then the homicidal/suicidal people will need to find a new way to get attention. It doesn't solve the underlying problem though, the mental health of the suicidal person. I still think it would go a long way to keeping young people in school safer though. You can't ban the news coverage though, as that's a first amendment right. It needs to be a decision of the news people themselves.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
i see a lot of posts on good old slashdot here saying that "the real issue is clearly mental illness" (to quote one of many).
so but, .. male.
according to Mother Jones,
of the counted 62 U.S. Mass Murders in the past 20 years,
38 of the 62 (61%) showed signs of mental illness,
while 61 of the 62 (98%) were
which correlation do you think more strongly deserves attention.
The idea that our society is incapable of handling violent videogames or media, but infallible with regard to possessing and handling professional military weapons is beyond absurd.
They should do a study on overbearing legislation and its effects on mental health. I'm sure they won't like what they find. When everyone except criminals are living in a padded box because doing anything is illegal... well, what do you expect?
So how many rights are we going to have to give up this time? Did we even have any left?
Violent crime in the US has flallen through the floor since '94
That turning point is when Doom II was released, therefore the popularization of violent first person shooter videogames is correlated with a reduction in violent crime.
Despite our alleged enlightenment as a society we do our best to throw out anyone who is slightly different. Maybe if we as a society were inclusive of all human beings no matter how "weird" they would be able to maintain their connection to us. That means we need to give up "making fun", gossiping and excluding.
I don't think that will happen anything soon but that would prevent incidents like this more than any form of censorship or arms control ever could.
Yes, the religious right does that -- and the extreme left does it too.
What 'extreme left'??
Whatever happened to crazy?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
The current violence over there only began when you guys invaded it, so AC has a point.
I don't think video games are the problem. I've enjoyed playing shooters and rts. But what they and hollywood do, do is give a romanticized unrealistic rendition of war and shooting guns. Real life war and guns are not like the video games, they sucks hard. It does feed the gun culture though and makes morons like on congress man think that the answer is more guns. Arming teachers is the solution they. As if a teacher would be able to take one shot without missing to take the guy down. Don't restrict video games and moves. Restrict military grade weapons. No civilian on the planet needs one for anything.
Recent comments demonstrate some senators just don't get it. I don't understand why he thinks "Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better" I've never heard of a single study that indicates games cause violence. In fact I've seen studies that claim the exact opposite. That is violent video games give people a release valve.
The real problem here is drugs, how about drug control. If video games are the problem then we also have to regulate movies, internet, etc, etc.. Has nothing to do with games. One word; DRUGS We need to adopt Singapore drug laws and be done with it. Wake up people
One recent example: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/12/data-helps-rebut-the-violent-video-games-cause-shootings-argument/
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
What I really find weird as a European is that gun loving Americans always tend to point to Switzerland. I think there is a lot of misinterpretation regarding swiss gun politics as it totally different of the situation in the states.
* There is mandatory yearly training for people that are a member of that militia.
* As of 2007 they don't issue personal ammo. Only special rapid deployment & military police has ammo stored at home.
* When a person service is ended and he wants to keep the weapon it is first sent to the factory to remove the automatic feature. * The sales of automatic weapons and silencers is forbidden.
* To carry a gun you need to have a "Waffentragschein" permit which in most cases is only given to private persons working in security
* To buy a weapon as a private citizen is regarding permits and background checks not that much different as in most European countries. Switzerland is also a Schengen country.
The swiss gun politics in no way is that similar as in the States.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong:
List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
What do you mean you can't buy more?
If you can buy hunting rifles which can be chambered in the same caliber how do they know if you are buying it for the SIG or the varmint gun?
How about they do an actual worthwhile study to show:
A. What effects religious brainwashing have on people (ie. members of the WBC); and
B. How the underlying psychological effects of these mental cases (murderers, religious loons) can and do alter a person's behavior and sense of reality without ever being exposed to video games--just shitty parents, maybe combined with some kind of "hidden" mental problem.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other First Worldcountry on earth.
FTFY
citation
But not all is bad. In homicide rate, you're right below Zimbabwe. Take that, Zimbabwe! Festering shithole you!
...and I am as surprised as you, but I am almost completely serious now. We need NRA for gamers. We need:
No. Because. Fuck You. Association.
Only then we can have some peace. For the record, as a kid, I played most of the violent games of the day. I am hardly a violent person; in fact, I am mildly derided for not being aggressive. Maybe I had a proper outlet..
But what do I know. I am just a mass of inluences in the culture that propagates violence at every turn.
I know. Maybe we could ban wars. Wait, I know. People cause wars. Maybe we could ban people. That would prevent wars and violence. No people. No violence. No problem...
This post is provided without warranty as to reliability, accuracy or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose.
Isn't there something about an armed militia? Sounds like the Swiss are living to all the amendment, not just part.
They also issue knives to their army with corkscrews and magnifying glasses....
Lets see, classics: Romeo and Juliet: Massive family feud between two wealthy "merchant" families, resulting in street battles and pub brawls with deaths. Ending with two main characters committing suicide. King Lear: King splits up kingdom to his daughters based on who loves him the most. Two of the three daughters conspire together and lie to get the largest shares. King disowns daughter who didn't lie. Once having the kingdom, the 2 daughters proceed to treat their father like crap, and plot to kill him. The good daughter goes to war with the other two. Good daughter is executed. King finds out his good daughter was executed, dies from grief. King's good servant commit suicide to continue serving the King in the afterlife.... Hamlet: Brother of King, kills the King, and then marries his now dead brother's wife. The son of the original king confronts his mother and can't believe that she would marry her former husband's killer. Girlfriend/lover of the son/prince commits suicide because the prince declairs that marriage should be outlawed in rage of what his mother has done. Oedipus Rex: Son/prince kills father/king. Marries mother who he is in love with.... No, there was no violence in classic literature, as long as you don't consider child molestation, incest, rape, murder, and suicide violent....
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Why is that not a requirement?
Esp if:
1) You have a semi auto
2) hi cap magazines
3) children
4) any mentally challenged occupant in the domicile.
Make the owner(&next of kin) liable if that cabinet is accessed and its contents used by others.
H.
Games are an activity that you can play solo, so perhaps socially isolated children resort to videogames. Being socially isolated is a symptom (cause?) of emotional issues. This does not mean that healthy people cannot play games. Its the old correlation does not imply causation. There may be a connection, but the danger is that videogames will make a handy scapegoat regardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Don't get me wrong, I think the way the Swiss (and several other Nordic countries) handle their gun laws is probably the best way to go about it; however, considering the US government's recent track record, I don't trust them to enact such measures in a fair and even manner.
Which is, ultimately, the issue American firearm aficionado's have with restrictive gun laws - history has shown us that men with power ought not to be trusted.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I've been playing call of duty since it came out, I've played almost all of my friends also have played these, I also play paintball where you shoot people for real so I guess that's worse. I've never owned a real gun and don't want to. This is the so stupid, you might as well get rid of movies, books, theater, newspapers, and any type of media. Then you might as well lock up anyone who witnessed a violence because they would be affected by it as well and might go crazy as well.
As sure as the sun will shine tomorrow you can count on politicians crawling out of the woodwork. Rockefeller is an idiot and he is wasting taxpayer money debating this. Even if video games did cause teenage boys to run out and shoot people (it doesn't) there is no way to prove it. What's next? Ban violent movies, and music videos? Might as well ban sports too because of all that violence in football and boxing and MMA and hockey and God knows what else.
The problem, as I see it, is that congress is unable to pass meaningful legislation. The republicans are wed to the NRA and Christian Coalition. The democrats are wed to the unions. Back in 2008 congress had the McCain sponsored bill to ban assault weapons and it never passed. If someone wants to have a gun for protection that's fine but I can't think of a single valid reason for any private citizen to possess an automatic weapon. Yet the republicans can't get behind it because of pressure from the NRA.
All you get is grandstanding by the likes of Rockefeller. Blaming video games is simply idiotic.
I'm not European, so I have a very limited picture.
But in light of all these economic problems, it sounds like not issuing (and taking back) the ammunition is more of a matter of money than anything else.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Ok, I'm going to get modded to hell for suggesting this, but I can't help but to wonder. I read all these comments from non-USians about how this is a US problem, not a video game problem. So, ok, the rest of the world consumes the same video games, same movies, same news broadcasts, pretty much same everything. So what's different?
It's not even gun laws that are necessarily different. Look at Sweden.
What's different is that we mutilate the genitals of boys at birth.
Why can't we have a study to see whether there's a correlation and causation there between circumcision and tendency to violence and extreme emotions? I heard over the summer that the rate of circumcision is down to something like 50%, so we should have some populations to gather data from.
It seems to me that it's more likely than causing the forming mind of an infant to undergo an experience of indescribable pain might be more potent than any violent or disturbing video game.
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Adam Lanza brushed his teeth. Clearly, toothpaste causes school shootings.
For great justice.
Anectdote != Correlation.
So he was a gamer.
He was also male.
He was also 20 years old.
He was also intelligent.
He was also fill-in-the-blank.
Even if there is a general connection found between violent video games and real-world violence, it's not likely a significant factor in this case.
From current news reports (which are admittedly incomplete and possibly wrong) it looks like this shooter was mentally ill. One media outlet reported yesterday that the shooter's mother had begun the process of having him involuntarily hospitalized and that the shooter found out and was upset. The same report says the police are looking into this as a possible motive.
Perhaps the lesson here has nothing to do with video games but rather the need to improve access to mental-health resources and to not knowingly have guns within reach of people who are both mentally ill and who are under stress or who you know are about to be put in a high-stress situation where they might "snap."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It all comes down to how you raise your kids. Kids have to be taught strong moral values. If they are never taught to value life, then they won't.
Violent games are just another input stimulus. The first time you show a young kid a fighting movie or video game, they'll probably try to mimic the "cool" moves they see. You have to teach them that it's only okay for make-believe and playing, and not okay to seek real fights. Some kids never receive good parenting, though. Putting an abundance of negative stimulus in front of them and never teaching right from wrong is a recipe for disaster.
The problem is that there are people raising kids that have no business raising kids. We can't prevent them from having kids, but we can put more focus on the quality of our teaching and outreach programs. There's no substitute for good parents, but at least kids can latch onto community role models and still learn strong moral values from them.
what about the billions of video gamers all over the world that never gun down anyone?
So sick of these fascist lunatics....
Whether you agree or disagree with a hypothesis (in this case, "violent video games cause violent behavior"), you should be in favor of scientific investigation. I am always amazed at the amount of logical fallacies that Slashdotters trot out every time video games are attacked; it reminds me of the NRA. Why can't we just say, "Interesting hypothesis, let's see if the data supports it." The only reason to be against science is if you know you're wrong and you're afraid that other people will find out.
Granted, TFA is talking about a "commission" and not a "scientific study," but it's at least purporting to look at facts (and hopefully science) in a thoughtful way. If it turns out that violent games do cause violent behaviors in certain cases, and that we could take some reasonable actions to prevent that violence, then I would be in favor of doing so. I'm not going to sit here like some gun nut screaming "You ain't gonna take away my video games!" I always thought the only benefits to giving up video games were more free time, money, increased productivity, weight loss, and a better sex life. If we could add "fewer mass murders" to the list, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
I think that is your first line of defense, and your first line of inquiry, to start with. How about Mom and Dad stop chasing what the Joneses down the street have? How about Mom and Dad stop worrying about working all the time so they can have a $650,000 McMansion like Sue and Bill do? How about Mom and Dad teaching their kid(s) to be happy with what they have and not lusting for what Bill junior has? How about Mom and Dad get over the stigma of having a conversation with their children and, you know, FUCKING TALK TO THEM - NOT _AT_ THEM? And for the love of whatever you hold dear, do not do this once they are 12. Start the conversations at age 2 - they won't understand it all then, but the topics are there and they will absorb that information. That concern. Those values. Instill in your children respect for adults, respect for others, and respect for themselves. Teach them right from wrong and how to tell fantasy from reality. Do NOT try and teach this to them when they are too old to give a shit what Mom and Dad think or believe - teach it to them from the beginning.
Tell the government to get the hell out of deciding how we discipline our children. Until and unless one is drawing blood and/or leaving bruises in places they should not conceivably be such as around the shoulders, ankles, chest, head, upper arms and so forth - basically, if it is within a few inches of the ass of that child AND this is not a persistent pattern, then fuck off and let them discipline their children. I'm not saying every child needs a spanking, but I know that my generation (late 30 year old and into 40 year old group) grew up respecting adults, authority, and without the vast sense of entitlement pervading our society today AND most - I would say 90% - of my friends and acquaintances had their ass spanked when needed. Or we were grounded and sent to a room NOT filled with every electronic marvel of the age so it was an actual punishment. We were not bribed to be quiet with a toy. We were told to be quiet or you'd get a real reason to cry... and we believed them.
I could go on but I think most people get my point. How about we start with getting Mom and Dad to be Mom and Dad and not "that authority figure I can ignore because they are never home and always working"? How about we start taking personal responsibility for ourselves and our children and stop blaming the TV, video games, and everything else BUT ourselves?
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
So you take away the video games from the kids, and what they do? They turn on the TV, where we have a nonstop news cycle of violence, drone strikes, wars all around the world, graphic footage of people blowing their brains out on the news; and when that "news" gets too much, you turn the channel to the movie channel, where you get more films of people blowing each other up in various gruesome ways. Video games may very well be a major problem, but singling out that one tree in a huge forest of a violence-obsessed culture seems a little shortsighted. In the USA, violence is entertainment, and we don't even think twice about it. Then everyone starts wondering why people do shit like this? Give me a break. It's not video games; it's not Marilyn Manson. It's EVERYTHING put together.
And that's before you even consider the other factors here, one of which is – surprise! – the fact that basically anyone can purchase an automatic assault rifle for a few hundred bucks. (My 21-year-old unemployed little brother owns an M-16, for God's sake.) It pisses me off, because all of these people who bang on about the Second Amendment seem to never have read it – the actual words are "a well-regulated militia" or something to that effect, not "every US citizen has the right to be armed to the fucking teeth." Furthermore, the Second Amendment was written when the most dangerous weapon available was a muzzleloading musket; a pretty far cry from an AK-47. I have no problem with somebody owning a small-caliber pistol for their own defense, or a rifle for hunting, but I haven't heard one single compelling reason why your average citizen should be able to own as many assault rifles or other semiautomatic or automatic weapons as he or she wishes. Until somebody really honestly addresses that issue and stops pissing their pants because they're afraid of what the gun lobby is going to do, the rest of the discussion is basically moot.
What baffles me through all of this is that the worst school massacre was in the 1920s. Before videogames were even an idea. before assault rifles, i want to say before tvs but not exactly sure when they made those. Obviously we have to look at mental health factors and not blame everything on outside forces. Unless someone thinks that goddamn newfangled jazz led him to murder. This is the culture that we have made for ourselves tho, where no one takes personal responsibility for their actions, your kid gets bad grades, oh thats not your fault for being a horrible parent, lets give him some aderall and he will be fine. Oh you are morbidly obese, thats ok, no amount of diet and excercise will ever solve it, you are beautiful just the way you are. Oh hey billy have an award for participation even tho you got last place, good job. Kid shoots up a school, lets blame everything else except for the kid. I remember not too long ago people were blaming rock music and dungeons and dragons for turning kids into violent satanists. We need to stop blaming every fucking single piece of new media just because we dont enjoy it ourselves. I also find it quite odd that both this shooter and the aurora shooters fathers were going to testify in the Libor case. Maybe someone should look into that a bit instead of blaming videogames and guns.
Based on what? The few who commit violent crimes? What about the overwhelming majority of us...that do not?
You seem to be having a problem with your perspective. I'd advise *not* watching the news and maybe getting out and talking to a few *real* people. You might find that most Americans (or the citizenry of any other nation you'd care to visit) are fine, trustworthy people.
Never mind the effect of violent video games on children, I'd support a violent video game ban just to raise the maturity level of your typical BF3 server.
Of course, that probably won't help, will it?
You fail to see it because you are part of it.
If you want to have a reasoned debate you cannot selectively use facts.
Agreed, and that's a two way street:
Wikipedia tells me that for the past five years, Switzerland has only permitted 2,000 of those with military issue weapons to store ammunition at home.
From the article:
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Pot, meet kettle.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
I neglected to mention a lot of things, as they were non sequitur to the point I was making, and I'm not in the habit of needless pontification.
Regarding this point of yours, I personally believe proper training should be mandatory prior to allowing an individual to purchase any firearm.
Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
I suggested no such thing - I will, however, recommend for future reference that you fully read and understand the premise of a post before you respond to it, thus assuring that your statements are at least relevant to the topic at hand.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
There are billions of gamers in the world who are apparently able to separate digital fantasy from reality or we'd all have perished under the wrath of their sheer numbers a long time ago. The world would now look like something crossed between Mad Max and World of Warcraft if the argument for "violent video games" held any salt.
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No, it has to do with the tool. You are wrong.
Guns are the problem. You can be a mentally ill person and run around waving a knife, and you might even kill one or two people. But everyone else will run from you.
There are nuts all over the don't go around shooting up classrooms and theaters.
Do you know why? Because they DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE TOOL.
The tool (gun) is the clear problem here. It is staring us in the face.
riiiiight...before the US went over there it was the most peaceful place on Earth...
Unless you actually know anything about the history of the middle east....which has, for 2000 years, been in a nearly *constant* state of war.
This should say, "There are nuts all over the world that don't go around shooting up classrooms and theaters."
I don't understand how this can be surprising.
I wouldn't mind killing people for sport if I thought I could get away with it. I can understand how it could feel particularly good for frustrated people.
If your whole life is turning to shit, you can't take it and you'd rather die, what reasons are there to not go on a killing spree until you're put down?
While the OP had it wrong, it's not by much. Only a few countries have a higher amount of gun violence per capita.
So, citation provided.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
That's what the problem is with games and TV shows in the US today. Kids are presented with violence all the time but when a nipple is flashed there's an outrage.
Just look at the outrage caused by Janet Jackson.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
When bringing up Switzerland in a discussion about gun control, you're being dishonest unless you also point out a few things:
Maybe, but this particular discussion isn't about gun control in general, it's about whether or not having prolific firearm ownership directly leads to increased acts of violence, as suggested by OP:
Training, population size, and poverty rates are non sequitur to this particular discussion.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
"They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons."
Classic literature and Saturday morning cartoons are, in many cases, bloody as hell. And people have gotten plenty hysterical about them in the past.
More specifically, there's a handful of pieces of "classic literature" that have featured in more mass killings than pretty much any others - centuries worth, in fact.
Ban the various "holy" fairytale books and then we'll talk about the vidya games, Jay.
Oh, and if you look at the list of homicides for 100k people with guns Switzerland is the next highest "western" nation after the US. 2.97 to .77. ~ 4:1.
That's general homicide.
Per the Wiki article, the homicide rate involving firearms is much lower: 0.52 per 100k population.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I'm not surprised this thread is filled with hostile responses to the story. Every time popular media or firebrands or pundits bring up a link between violence and video games, the Slashdot community is steadfast in its response that there is none. After all, a) violence predates video games, b) I play violent video games and I don't kill people, or c) the isolated examples don't prove a general problem - pick the argument, it's here, right?
Why not support the study? Why not give science a chance to bear out these arguments? Slashdot loves science and not anecdotal evidence or correlation or generalizations, right? Support a neutral, well-conducted study or experiment. Validate the unproven preconceptions posted here repeatedly, and then use the study to convince others. Or maybe accept that these plausible, gut-feel preconceptions are wrong, if science proves them wrong. Would you rather be sure or know?
Every time I see a study directed toward what I think I *know*, I'm glad. I get to learn if I'm wrong, or confirm what I thought was, in fact, fact. I would have thought the same here.
Now, I have deliberately avoided most of the coverage of this event but this is literally the first time I've heard any mention anywhere about Adam Lanza's father. And you mention him only indirectly. Before now I had to assume immaculate conception, which helped explain a lot, but now all my theories are laid to waste..
Naturally now I'm very curious. Did he have a relationship with his father? Was it close? How did his father treat his mother? With kindness, compassion and respect? Which came first: sociopathic child or broken home (indeed, I imagine if there is causation it can go either way- some marriages destroy kids, some kids destroy marriages...)?
FWIW the video game connection has been studied and reported on extensively. Two examples:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/09/us/they-threaten-seethe-and-unhinge-then-kill-in-quantity.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
If congress feels the need to revisit the question then I smell a pork barrel.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
We should obviously do something about video games because you can kill so many more people with a game controller than an Armalite AR-10.
"Sample size matters" for precision yes, accuracy not so much.
A carry permit is required to have the gun in public at all, and generally you can only get those if you work in security.
According to Wikipedia:
Seems recreational shooting is far too popular a sport to be relegated solely to security personnel.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
So, following the logic, violent video games must be all over the place in places like Rwanda, East Timor, Chechnya...
...he says, in a thread about a (D) starting another gaming witch-hunt.
Have you not seen ANY speech by Obama in the last 4 years? Every problem in this country is because of people being successful in business and making their own money. Hate speech/class warfare at every possible opportunity.
Or we can go with Carter calling everyone who disagrees with Obama a bigot.
Or the DNC Senator yesterday calling all NRA members "murder endablers"
Perhaps you are not seeing it because you agree with the hate-speech and are part of the problem but don't want to admit to it.
Media, as in news media is the problem. Every time a fucked up nutcase goes out on a killing spree, there is non stop media coverage. News media glorifies the murderers yet no one remembers one of the victims. So the next nutcase sitting at home watching this is probably thinking: Man, I could do the same thing and the world will remember me!
I would say that religion has caused far more destruction and harm than this guy...or mentally ill people...well...excluding all those religious people who are mentally ill but are accepted in our society as sane because so many others share in their insanity.
Can we study religion in stead of video games and ban it?
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
You want to stop this? Leave the guns, just charge $1000 a bullet. No way anyone can afford the 50 grand it would take to do this type of killing.
Problem solved.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
You've missed the point: GP stated their belief that firearm violence is commonplace in the US because gun ownership is prolific. I offered a counter-example of a nation that has prolific firearm ownership, but very low rates of firearm related violence.
What you've listed are likely some of the reasons why, and speaking as a firearm aficionado, most of them are not ideas that I would necessarily disagree with implementing, granted it was done in a fair, legal, and proper fashion.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
They have to blame "something", so video games it is. Blaming video games will get support from Christian groups and pro-gun groups because none of them have any type of mental health support plans in place.
Plus politicians will apsaras to be "doing something" about what has happened.
Previous presidents have all said they will do something to prevent these tragedies from happening again and have done nothing about it, so maybe that's where the true blame lies?
Ban automatic weapons and provide free mental health services; works here in Australia.
...somewhere along the line as the individuals that make up our government can't differentiate between causation and correlation.
Be ready for more publicly funded research projects on: violence, aggression, gender, diet, home altitude above sea level, pet vaccines, hair spray perfumes, carpet fibers, shoe size, chicken hormones, melting point of wax, paint colors in public restrooms......
Or is it all just a distraction instead of encouraging the public understanding of and taking action real, corrective on the fact we have a sick society that not only doesn't value human life, but refuses to instill that value in it's progeny for fear of offending someone else or decreasing a profit margin.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong: List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
Yes, facts are quite handy for disarming emotional nonsense. That is, assuming your audience has any stomach for reality.
Thanks for the info.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
You put porn in front of a 15 - 30 yr old male and what happens?
Same male sees a food commercial and raids the fridge.
But video games don't influence anything?
no, democrats disagree with each other all the time, have open disagreements.
Right now, if you a pub and do that, you will be ignored and your career sabotaged.
You're illusion that both side are equal and behave the same way all the time is stupid. stop acting stupid.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You may be thinking of Saturday morning cartoons of a few years ago. I got up early this Saturday and decided to go look to see what cartoons were on. Sadly, Doc McStuffins, Rescue Heroes, and Thomas and Friends was the closest thing I could find. Other channels where as a kid I would watch cartoons had paid programming or news.
Sadly, Cartoon Network seems to be one of the only channels that has real cartoons (i.e. ones with a plot that don't bother teaching lessons to preschoolers)
You do realize some of those statistics are almost/over 20 years old, don't you?
WTF, New Zealand doesn't have any data more recent than 1993? Why are they even being included?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book
That quote seems to disagree with claims about ammo control being strict.
Actually, the numbers are quite interesting when you take a close look at them.
The majority of gun deaths, not necessarily counted as "gun violence" (ominous voice), are suicides. As tragic as suicide can be, I will defend an individual's right to leave this world as they see fit.
The other minority% of gun deaths are the "gun violence" (ominous voice). Of those, the vast majority are directly related to our puritanical "war on drugs" (and sex) which has been proven to be a total and complete failure. Prohibition, and the black markets it creates, is the true cause, the true root of, quite a few of the problems getting media attention these days.
Anyone that wants a reduction in "gun violence" (ominous voice), should be against prohibition.
Anyone that wants to see a balanced budget in the next 100 years should be against prohibition. We imprison more people than China. We spend BILLIONS chasing and jailing people for non-violent drug-related activities.
Anyone that wants to see the trends in childhood obesity reversed should be against prohibition. When many inner-city parents are asked why they let their kids sit and play video games, many say it's not safe for their kids to just "go outside and play". End the failed "war on drugs", collapse the black markets, and make the streets safe for them to go outside and play, less obese kids...
End prohibition, and collapse the black markets, and you remove the profit motives behind the vast majority of "gun violence" (ominous voice). If a rival dealer moves into your territory, you aren't taking him to small claims court. Under current prohibition laws, you're already a criminal, and he's stealing from you, so the path is clear. Never mind the "gun violence" (ominous voice) tied to gang initiations, gang wars, etc. Remember, criminals don't care about laws, least of all gun laws, they're already criminals!!!
Sigh.
The remaining minority percentage of "gun violence" (ominous voice) incidents are caused by the nuts. The crazies. The people who are purely coocoo for cocopuffs. The people that are bound and determined to do harm. Of course, if we stopped spending billions on the failed puritanical "war on drugs" (and sex) there'd be more funds available to improve our mental health system in this country....
Many point to countries with less "gun violence" (ominous voice), and point out how strict their guns laws are. But they fail to look at statistics of other countries where guns are just as available, if not more so, than the US and still have similar levels of "gun violence" (ominous voice) as the countries with the strictest gun laws on the planet. What is the secret in those countries? Anyone? Studies show that there is a direct link to how drugs are policed in a country and the amount of "gun violence" (ominous voice) they have. The countries with similar access to guns as the US, but with much lower levels of "gun violence" (ominous voice) treat drug offenses like jay-walking. They treat it as a medical issue, not a criminal one. Of course, since that doesn't fit either the anti-drug, or anti-gun narratives, no one ever talks about that...
What's frustrating is that we can't have an adult conversation about doing away with these puritanical prohibitions that have failed this country and contributed to bankrupting this country.. These issues have extremists that cover their ears and go "YAYAYAYAYA" whenever you try to talk truth to stupid.
Gun-control and anti-gun-control groups each have their own, child-like extremists, that are just as annoying.
Anti-gun-nuts live in a fantasy would where if we all did what they told us to and just got rid of the guns, everything would be skittles and blowjobs. Sadly, this isn't the case. The same day as the Newton tragedy, in China, a psycopath killed 20 children with a knife. Incidents like this are not as rare as you may hope. Many like to pretend that if there weren't guns, tragedies like the one in Newton wouldn't have happened. But, the guy was crazy. He kille
When I read "parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better" in my head I'm thinking "protective but reactionary emotional adults, doctors operating outside of their area of expertise, and grandstanding Dr. Phil types know better".
You'll also see the gun-homicide rate in the US is about four times that in Canada, which is still quite striking even after the hyperbole has been cleared away.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Government issue, government property, ammo control and inventory is very strict.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
The United States has lots of extreme viewpoints, right, left, center and "other". And they all hammer their own little, ignorant hate messages.
I wouldn't call a 5-fold increase in deaths per capita "not much", especially when 60% of our gun deaths are suicides.
Which means very little when commercial sale is an option. Which wikipedia indicates is.
Feel free to link to alternate sources of information.
*sigh* Thanks, I needed another example of ignorant hate speech, ignorant grouping of people under a label and ignorant generalities about them. Just what I needed.
Yes, the military issues firearm to their militia. No one ion the us is talking about removing guns from out military.
If they want to own a gun, they must be in a security profession where it is needed, and under strict licensing guidelines.
So, lets make it so ONLY people in them military can be issued a gun, and only people who are in a security field where one is determined to be needed, and licensing happens every few years, and is very strict.
People who bring up the Swiss as proof the gun ownership in the US is safe are idiots.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There have been guns in this country since its founding. These rampages seem to be something that started happening in the last few decades. What is the cause of them? That's the hard question!
... supply perscripting drugs with violent video games... or a military draft card...
Since the shooting, I've heard calls to weaken the First Amendment (to silence the Westboro assholes), the Second Amendment (take ALL the guns), and the Fifth Amendment (pre-emptively locking up people who are deemed "weird.") Why not just throw the entire document in the shredder at this point?
My mother always told me to never make a decision when I'm upset. I wish the people of this country would take that advice.
I will, however, recommend for future reference that you fully read and understand the premise of a post before you respond to it, thus assuring that your statements are at least relevant to the topic at hand.
This is slashdot. Nobody does that here.
I will submit 2 proofs that video games do not cause violent behavior. So I give you fine people 2 bullet proof examples that any sane person can recognize as the truth.
1- Hitler, the crusades, caligula, ted bundy, the rostov ripper, elisabeth bathory, the entire middle east and basically every single violent crime and war the world has ever known for thousands and thousands and thousands of years before video games were ever even invented. And school shootings? So what? Charles whitman shot a bunch of people at a college in the 1960s, or the poe school bombing in the 1950s. If we have had a long history of serial killers, school shootings/bombings, wars, genocide and so on before we had video games then how do you blame video games for them now? How many millions of people were slaughtered, beheaded, blown up, raped, beaten, stabbed, poisoned, drowned and just generally murdered for absolutely no reason before video games were around?
2- If video games caused violence, I mean truly caused it then every single person who ever played a violent video game would go out and commit murders and shoot up school. But guess what? I have been playing violent games and watching extremely violent movies my whole 38 years on this planet and I never commited a violent crime and I bet you havent either and can name 20 other people who havent either. But if games did make us violent ever person who plays them would be violent. You cant say "Well video games make people violent. Well not all people, just 2 or 3 out of a million. But they still make you violent". Black ops 2 sold over 7 million copies so far in the united states alone, if violent games made us violent just by playing them then there would be over 7 million people out right now shooting everything up but guess what? They arent doing that.
Personally I say religion is a bigger cause of violence than video games are. Religion has caused more pain, misery, judgemental mentalities, closed mindedness, genocide, murder, pillaging, blind hatred and raw violent deaths in the history of mankind than anything else has ever caused. No one has ever played call of duty then gotten into a plane and crashed it into a city, no one has ever played doom and run into a crowded street with innocent people while having a bomb tied to them, and no christian army has marched across country sides murdering thousands in the name of god because they just got done playing world of warcraft.
Case closed.
The way I read it, you can get Assault Rifles with a special permit. You can do it, just gotta pass that test.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
I remember one talking head on the evening news make the following statement, "If you don't have a gun you can't kill anybody", I'm not kidding!
The simplistic bullshit is just absurd! And that predatory opportunist Dianne Feinstein who is always looking for a way to get her face on TV, whining about "Gun Control" has a concealed carry permit and full time armed body guards!
Since the "recession" hundreds of cops have been laid off all across America and in some communities a 911 call has to be routed to a "nearby" community so in some places you might get a cop today, maybe! But remember "they" want you disarmed!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
After skimming the other posts here, I don't see where anybody else noticed that this came only a day or two after Ars Technica published a story about how statistics show a NEGATIVE correlation between violent video games and actual violence.
The state looking for the source of violence in our society, when the state itself is an institution based entirely on violence to fund itself and enforce its edicts.
I understand you completely missed the point. I didn't say "both sides are equal" and I didn't say they "behave the same way all the time". But I did say that stupid, ignorant hate speech isn't isolated to one "group" and the person making such accusations is pretty likely spewing hate speech themselves -- love the irony.
...". That one person said it. The hallmark of an ignorant person is that they cannot properly spot the source of some statement and, therefore, tend to generalize.
Here's a tip. If person X says stupid, ignorant things, they said it -- not "Democrats", not "Republicans", not "those crazy
I disagree with much of what Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, religious right, et.al. believe. But I can talk with them, I can find agreements, I can understand their viewpoints even when I disagree. They are not, for the most part, "ignorant", "stupid", "hateful", "evil". The idea that one must demonize those who disagree with you in order to be right is not a very bright idea.
When we can talk to those we disagree with, when we can understand their viewpoints, then we can find a way through our difficulties. The desire to demonize ensures we can never find a real solution to our common problems.
Want to solve gun violence problems? Look to the one who do it right. And their low violent crimes arent a result of what you think.
Switzerland has the lowest violent crime and gun related crime in the entire world, they have been number 1 for decades. Yet the twist is in Switzerland citizens are required/encouraged to own a gun. All citizens are given a gun, ammunition and have annual training.
So if guns cause violence then how does an entire country own a gun yet have the lowest gun violence in the world? Thats because guns do not cause violence because a gun is just an inanmiate object.
You know why a country of gun owners have the lowest violent crimes? Because they are happy. It really is that simple, they are happy. Switzerland consistantly has the 1st or 2nd highest employment rate in the world, they consistantly are at the top of the list for healthcare for europe and the world, they have good education systems, the government takes care of its citizens and so on. Basically, the swiss take care of themselves and eachother so it leads to a country of people who are happy with their lives.
If america took care of its citizens, if it worried more about its own country than trying to be the worlds police, if they spent the money and time and energy on its own people first instead of wasting trillions allover the world, if they had a very good medical system, if they raised employment and above all else if the government cared about its citizens then this would be a much happier country. Happy citizens are productive citizens, productive citizens are satisfied citizens and satisfied citizens are nonviolent ones.
This isnt really that hard people. We consistantly can do nothing to fix our problems, but all we have to do is look at switzerland because they do everything right. Our government fails us at every turn because its a broken system that is divided into 2 parts of parties that oppose eachother and do what will get them re-elected instead of doing whats right for the people.
Guns, violent video games, comic books, marijuana, heavy metal music and so on do not cause violence. What causes violence is a unhappy person and when you have a country full of them then you will always have problems.
So dont blame guns, they are just a hunk of metal. Instead blame our govermental system that leads its people down a path of unhappiness.
I agree that we're becoming less violent, but the news is becoming more sensationalist and therefore people think we're becoming more violent.
This comes up a lot around the fact that it's frowned upon to let your 10 year old child walk somewhere alone in many places, even though child kidnappings are way down from the 80's when 10 year olds walking around by themselves was perfectly normal.
Prior to that the ammunition was strictly audited.
For the purposes of going on a killing spree, it really doesn't matter, so long as it's in your reach. It's not like you care if they're going to audit your use of that ammo afterwards...
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training.
People keep saying that, but what exactly about the aforementioned military training serves to limit the use of those guns in killing sprees?
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese.
You can compare it to Czech, if you want. Those guys have more than guns at home - they also have concealed carry of handguns.
Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Is that actually true? My understanding was that ammunition for the service rifles (whether military full auto, or converted to civilian semi-auto) is only available for sale at the ranges, and must be used there after purchase.
His post is generally correct, if by "in public" you understand as "in public outside of specially designated venues (e.g. gun ranges)".
Let's be honest. A good number of readers here must be acquainted with computer games. How many of you have gone on a shooting spree? NONE, that's how many. I mean, c'mon...really? It's irresponsible to put the focus in the wrong place when there is such an obvious problem screaming for attention...How do we better deal with mental illness? I'm interested to know exactly how some kind of restriction on computer games would magically stop people from having a mental illness. It seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. There's plenty of evidence that computer games are extremely useful for treating various mental illnesses and blaming games for people's actions only stops the good work in this field from happening.
The guy was 20 .... an adult. He can walk into any store and buy any video game. Either they're arguing for banning sales to minors (which has 0 impact on the shooting, none, zilch, NOTHING,) or they're arguing for censorship of fiction ..... If there is 1 thing this country stands for, it's our first amendment rights. When the government starts talking about restricting our constitutional rights, no matter how small of an infringement, it's time to replace that government (the representatives, not the government structure.)
Capcha was madman ...
Sure, but Swiss experience demonstrates that even when you have a large number of citizens with immediate access to fully automatic weapons and ammunition for the same, it doesn't necessarily result in an all-out rampage and regular killing sprees. That's the relevant part - the gun control argument is that giving guns to people is inherently dangerous and inevitably results in situations like this, but we know that it's plainly not the case.
US certainly has a problem with violence, and, of course, guns are convenient tools to use for someone who's bend on violence, but they are not the cause of it. Socioeconomic policies have far more to do with it - e.g. does Switzerland has a public healthcare system with strong focus on screening and preventative measures (including mental health)?
Videogames kill people.
Well, this week. Next week is scheduled for D&D, and the week after is for trenchcoats.
can't have that shit happening. Good thing the GOP if fighting that fight for us.
Is their study going to take a look at this game?. For those loath to follow the link, it's a google search for "drone cockpit", a game in which you actually do live killing. I understand that some participants have become mentally ill after playing the game.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Seriously? Are you still listening to pretend Morgan Freeman. The media has been full of pictures of the victims, stories of the victims and vigils for the victims. The murderer has been examined, as he should be, but by no means "glorified."
Or kill 8 and wound 15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre
If you sort on gun-homicides
Then you are missing a fair bit of the picture. Most of the countries above the US do not have data available for that distinction. If you sort by gun death the US is 10th. Still, to me what's shocking is that for every ~4 or so homicides, there are about ~6 suicides.
Ahh I see we have made it to step two of acceptance.
Step one being: NUH HUH we dont do that.
Step two being: Well, maybe we do it, BUT SO DO THE OTHER GUYS. In fact they are WORSE!
You are just as bad as those bogey men you rail against. Maybe you should just come to terms with the reality already? Alot of the righties are bigots. They hate anyone that may pose any sort of threat, real or imagined, to their precious religion. There is none of the love thy neighbor, and there is none of the turn the other cheek. I think Jesus would weep to see the people who claim to follow him.
Beowulf: Violent Anglo-Saxon murderer for hire goes to a foreign country and rips the arm off of a native. Then he has the audacity to brag about it.
I used to serve in the Swiss army a few year ago, so I can clarify a few things here.
Switzerland has no permanent military troops. Only the soldiers currently doing they first training are immediately available. The rest are reservists that can be recalled in term of days. To allow a mobilization of all the troops as quick as possible, you end up as a reservist with all your personal material at home. That include the summer and winter battle dress, assault rifle, bayonet, boots, gas mask, combat backpack, etc. I had my weapon under my bed (because it can rust or be stolen) and the breech in an other place. The rest was in the cellar.
Because the mobilization could happen when the country is already at war or invaded, until recently you add also a tin can with 50 bullets and a filter for your gas mask. So in fact that is allowed by second amendment in the US is obligatory in Switzerland.
There is about 100'000 reservists for 7 millions peoples in Switzerland. You have an initial training of 4-6 months at the age of 20 and are reservist for about 10-15 years with three weeks training every two year. The bullets and gas mask were removed from the list a few years ago.
that there was no correlate between video game violence and real world violence with kids.
I used myself as a model; I don't care how much Halo or Mass Effect or Fallout (3) I play, I just am not going to go on a shooting spree. Correct. No ****, I win a prize.
The reason that we -- me, and *probably* (ha ha) everyone else here won't either is, because while there may be some measurable desensitization to violence, most of just aren't wired to do go off. We have impulse control.
Teenagers on the other hand, not so much. I finished this this year On Killing.
Intriguing multi-decade study primarily on WWII era to Viet Nam era soldiers' propensity for killing. A later chapter in the book talks about violence, kids, and video games. Up until that time, I thought the connection was bull****. Now I have/am seriously rethinking this.
I think it is disingenuous to think that on one hand, video games are used to train soldiers eg but there is no overlap/carry over with unintentional civilian applications. Is this a simplification? Maybe, but look at the commonalities.
All I am saying is that, yes, it can be a problem, but really it is only the tip of the iceberg -- to focus on this and not the larger issues (as so many have already stated) is maddening.
TL;DR video game violence is a (small) problem, there are larger problems out there.
another example of ignorant hate speech, ignorant grouping of people under a label and ignorant generalities about them.
You mean, like Sara Palin or Glenn Beck do?
Nice video, thanks!
riiiiight...before the US went over there it was the most peaceful place on Earth...
It was definitely more peaceful before. Not meaning that it was a paradise...
anything about the history of the middle east....which has, for 2000 years, been in a nearly *constant* state of war.
You mean, like Europe?
I thought Roger Ebert's comments after Columbine were interesting:
"Let me tell you a story. The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking sound bites to support it. "Wouldn't you say," she asked, "that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?" No, I said, I wouldn't say that. "But what about 'Basketball Diaries'?" she asked. "Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?" The obscure 1995 Leonardo Di Caprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office (it grossed only $2.5 million), and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.
The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."
In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them. I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1. The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy."
You might say they have a well-regulated militia.
Is this going to be an actual study, or is it going to be your typical government funded "Here's the results we want, create us some data that supports these conclusions" type study (a.k.a. American drug policy). All this is showboating for the continuing "War against the Constitution / Bill of Rights".
I'll give my thoughts when the next title on the subject reads something like - School Shooting Prompts Legislation To Study Ban on Violent Real Life Guns.
Apparently there is more recent data (and rates have actually dropped), but I can't find it on Google.
So do tell me: How many genocides have been attempted/carried out since we got involved?
Brush up on your history, Today's Middle East is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been going on there since before Christanity.
What a bunch of bullshit. Please!Please!Please! already, stop blaming objects for the death's, objects are not alive or have any conscious but we humans have both attributes. Dumb shits! Humans have been killing each other for centuries. Yeah, blame video games for Hitlers decision to wipe out 10 million people, oh wait there were no video games back then.
What about the 1920's Bath School Massacre in Michigan? # 3 bombs went off killing 38 elementary school children, 2 teachers, and four other adults with 58 injured. This atrocity was executed by the school board treasurer Andre Kehoe, age 55. Why? he was angry after being defeated in 1926 election for township clerk.
The columbine shootings, Colorado Movie shootings, and this one at the Connecticut school, all done by people who had nothing in life, felt like a bunch of losers, so they took their rage on innocent people, because life was not fair to them boo fucking hoo. Same with that Kehoe idiot. Fucking spoiled brats.
It's amazing how fast Obama jumped to blaming guns and yet he is going around the world backing up psychopath's(rebel fighters or Al-Qaeda bullshit bla bla crap) removing governments and as a result thousands and thousands of people dead including children. What happened to the fast and furious program? I read that it lead to 68 college students massacred in Mexico by drug cartels in one night same spot. Why did the FBI allow the gun owners to sell the weapons to the drug cartels in the first place?
Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued.
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Someone else contradicted this elsewhere by saying ammo can only be bought at ranges, but even if it isn't true, there is a world of difference between giving gun permits to trained members of the army reserve - people who've proven themselves to be of sound mind and body, among other qualities - and the US approach of letting anyone who isn't demonstrably insane or criminal buy as many as they'd like.
The situation in Switzerland is not even remotely comparable to the US situation, which is one big reason why the don't have the homicide rate you do, or the frequent mass killings you do.
Pot, meet kettle.
Please god let this obnoxious phrase pass into the history books.
I guess from a European perspective, U.S. politics looks like it ranges from center-left to far-right...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
Switzerland also requires that said mentally competent males of military-eligible age go through military boot camp and be part of their National Guard Reserve equivalent. Once their term of service is over, the automatic capability of the rifles is disabled.
Interesting.
I'm afraid I just don't understand the linear plotting of viewpoints. The people I know and talk to cannot be plotted on a simple line. I picture all the various possible viewpoints scattered about in some kind of three-dimensional space. That whole left-right paradigm doesn't actually fit real people -- only the extremists.
Yes because DDR is what caused Adam Lanza to want to kill kids. He was a gamer but the games he played weren't significantly violent.
You're right, guns are the most dangerous mass murder tool. Thank god the psyco's haven't figured out there are other means of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/05/14/loc_mahoney.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Plaza_Hotel_arson#Fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childers_Palace_Fire
sigh.
This was a terrible event - as it is every time something similar happens.
Some people are outraged - and want something done - and that "something" is usually amongst the least insulting to them. ie: Whatever they would "miss" the least.
But the anaology here must be made to the "chicken and egg" question that has puzzled mankind for millenia - but related to the concept of cause and effect.
I am going to ingore for a moment the ascertations that this boy played starcraft - which is not 'violent' and just focus on the "violent video game" "problem".
Q: Does playing a "violent video game" cause a person to become violent?
OR
Q: Is an already violent person attracted to playing "violent video games"?
which one is the cause, and which one is the effect?
A ban on violent video games is just as stupid and futile as last week's knee-jerk about gun bans, so let's see all those slashdotters who jumped to condemn ordinary law-abiding citizens who carry guns for self-defense also condemn the players of "violent" video games.
Lanza's father is a corporate executive. The kid grew up in a $1.6m home. His parents were well educated. Median household income in Newtown is $90000. These are well-off people in an affluent community.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248782/Adam-Lanza-How-classmates-remember-genius-turned-heartless-killer.html
If your comments show one thing, it is how people like you just fabricate facts to support their ideology. I find it sickening that you misuse a tragedy like this to push a political agenda.
Switzerland has barely half the guns-per-capita in circulation as the US, and that "circulation" is much more tightly controlled.
And it still ranks pretty high for gun voilence. Very high, by first-world standards.
So do tell me: How many genocides have been attempted/carried out since we got involved?
The several estimates range from several hundred thousands to more than a million people killed as a result of your invasion. Is that not a genocide?
Brush up on your history, Today's Middle East is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been going on there since before Christanity.
That's pretty understandable. People used to be pretty uncivilised in ancient times, you know? Besides, the whole history of the US is just a pimple in the ass of the history of Middle East.
This legislation was prompted by reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was a gamer.
He probably was also a fan of breakfast cereals. So what?
Because, clearly, a shotgun can't cause much havoc.
What, did we allow the people over there to start owning guns?
Guns were banned under Sadaam, and they remain banned. So clearly the legality of owning weapons is not the only factor in violence or even gun violence. Indeed, those people might well be better off if each family had an AK-47 in the house. It would make troops on all sides hesitate to kick in their doors and drag them off to be raped/murdered/tortured.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
Hey that's a really good idea. Why not restrict gun ownership in the US to members of the militia? So you have to join the militia and receive training on proper gun ownership and the responsibilities of being in the militia before they let you have a gun. Doesn't that kind of more closely follow the intent of the constitution, you know, the whole 'well regulated militia' bit?
Hmm, I guess hunting rifles could be acquired without being a member of the militia since hunters will probably never give up their rifles, and a bolt action hunting rifle is not exactly an UZI anyway.
Interestingly enough, even Canada ranks as more dangerous (in terms of gum related homicides) than Zimbabwe.
1) For someone to have a gun, they need to serve three months in the military where they'll be evaluated and trained
Are you implying that a person with military training wouldn't shoot someone?
While guns are easy to come by, it seems the ammo is more controlled than it is in the United States. And, the free ammo that the militia get only contains 50 rounds, sealed and numbered.
Well, if they're sealed and numbered he better rethink his murderous rampage. Wouldn't want to fail an inspection.
Wow. The fact that the USA is rubbing elbows with the likes of Nicaragua and Zimbabwe should be ALARMING.
Instead you seem to be taking some sort of smug satisfaction in pointing out the fact that Honduras and El Salvador are even worse.
All you've proven with your citation is that the USA really does have disproportionate gun violence. It's a first world developed country with gun violence numbers that lump it in with countries ravaged by shooting wars between drug cartels run by despotic warlords.
But hey, since el salvador is worse, I guess your right, the the USA isn't the worst in the world after all.
Now salute the flag and be proud. U-S-A. U-S-A.
The issue was NEVER video games. The issue is the lack of gun control, anyone who blames anything else is just hiding the truth. A violent video game does not make you kill, a fucked up mind makes you kill. Video games have NOTHING TO DO WITH VIOLENCE!!! Give an idiot a gun and he'll shoot up a school, give an idiot a video game and he'll grab a gun and replicate it, so just DON'T GIVE HIM A GUN! I'm fucking sick of hearing people blame video games, schools, teachers, bullies and everything else under the sun, the issue is you gave an idiot a gun and he used it, you fucked up by giving him the gun thats it!
The shooter at Sandy Hook was also believed to have had 2 hands, a nose, and owned at least 1 pair of sneakers.
It is long past time to study the impact of shoes on violent behavior. Imagine how much less effective Adam Lanza would have been if he had to chase his victims over broken glass, while barefoot? FBI Crime Statistics don't seem to track sneaker possession by violent offenders, but I imagine almost all violent crimes are committed by someone who owns multiple pairs of "military grade footwear".
Pay a little attention. The homicide rate in Canada is nowhere near Zimbabwe. The first column lists gun-related deaths, which includes suicides. There are no data for suicides in Zimbabwe, which makes the total gun-related death rate close to Canada. There are many countries with no data for suicides, which makes the total gun-related death rate a pretty uselss data series.
Order the list by the Homicides column, you'll see the US ranking very high, just below Zimbabwe, and Canada quite a few places below.
If someone had taken away Hitler's chess set instead of curbing his father's beatings, then maybe he wouldn't have flipped out and the world would be a very different place...
It's not really a proof, but violence has been decreasing in the U.S. for 20 years which is coincident with the huge increase in video game playing. So it seems a reasonable conjecture that video games reduce violence. Possible reasons include kids working out their aggression in a virtual world and kids simply having loads of fun. Having loads of fun keeps them off the streets and reduces their interaction with criminals. There might be some unstable people who confuse the real world and the game world, but so far it seems pretty clear that video games are not a disaster for public safety.
Ray Seyfarth, ray.seyfarth@gmail.com, http://rayseyfarth.blogspot.com
I keep hearing THIS solution over and over... I ain't buying it. I think this has caught fire with the folks who wish to blame anyone and anything except the free access to firearms. There are some assholes you cannot fix. There are some idiots you cannot fix. There are some folks one lab accident away from being a super-villain. And there are some folks who are going to miss a hug one day and implement their own personal doomsday plan. Reckon some readily available health care would've fixed Charles Manson?
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
The problem: maniacs with unregulated access to guns.
The solution: investigate video games, and bring God back into whatever.
Never mind, you religious retards, per your own recognizance God is everywhere. We're not in the fucking power to "bring" God anywhere. But yeah, reasoning is not one of your strong skills, I get that.
Why do people keep voting for those fuckers, again?
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
This sounds like a good idea to me. Sen. Rockefeller clearly thinks he knows how the results will come out, but I tend to trust the National Academy of Sciences to do an honest study of the subject, not just write a rationalization for someone's preconceived beliefs. If there really is a connection between violent video games and real world violence, I want to know about it. I'm not going to deny the possibility just because it conflicts with my preconceptions. And if they conclude there's no connection, maybe Sen. Rockefeller will even accept that. (Yeah, right, but I can still dream!)
Disclaimer: I'm a gamer. And frankly, I find some of the more violent games out there pretty disturbing and choose not to play them.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese. Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
Which one of you can tell me who Charles Whitman was.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong:
List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
The US is in the same league as third world nations. There's no point in saying "yay, Philippines and Colombia have more gun murders" because the Philippines and Columbia have serious civil insurgencies. Compared to other nations with a similar socio-economic status it's a huge difference. The US homicide rate is over 4 times greater than the next first world nation, Canada (CAN 0.76 / USA 3.7 ).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Not picking on you particularly geekoid, more on the general responses to the whole Swiss gun ownership debate: must be nice to live under the protection of the American military without paying for it. Without it you'd have a lot more people with guns running around there.
Which in and of itself is an interesting point. Could it be because our politicians are _afraid_ of the consequences of trying to limit the second amendment? If so, I imagine it's working as intended then. Too bad it isn't keeping their paws off the rest of the Constitution.
This, Notoriety matters to the super-villain.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Ohhhh you mean like that little tiff with Iran the one with all the chemical weapons?
Or maybe you were thinking of that minor disagreement with those nice folks living in north Iraq; kinda their Hatfields and McCoys?
Oh, and there was that insignificant territorial dispute with their neighbors to the south? You might be old enough to remember that.
Yeah, it was like the Garden of Eden.
For all the Gamers here in WV, We are sorry, we will vote him out as soon as we can. -_-
Sorry, I'm not a person. I'm a smart human.
You're forgetting the bible. There is a lot of nasty stuff in the bible.
~X~
Ban Cancer
Give a three month waiting period and...oh.
Scratch that. Land of the paranoid and home of the scared.
You cant take my guns, someone might hurt me booh hoo, bunch of pussies.
Takes a lot more to drive a knife into someones guts than it does to stand 20ft away and pull a trigger.
When Jimmy Carter calls me a bigot, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid both agree with his comments, and when asked Obama refuses to say Carter was wrong, that is the DEMOCRATS calling me a bigot. Its not a person, its the TOP LEADERSHIP of the party all in agreement with hate speech. Don't try and dispute it because you don't like the DNC being called a hate group, they are. If they were not, SOMEONE would have disagreed with Carter's comments calling all who oppose any Obama policy a bigot.
The DNC IS a hate group. No, it is not an individual, it is the party as a whole. You will not see an equivalnt example of a Republican spewing hate speech that all their leadership agrees with and no one tries to refute.
I've killed millions if not billions of people in video games but I have only killed a few hundred in real life.
Clearly killing in video games does not cause you to kill in real life.
The Official Site of 1337 Pwnage
Don't believe the per-capita numbers.
I have a quarter of the guns in America, so the numbers are skewed.
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Also, even with government issued guns, Switzerland has half the guns per capita of the US.
Armchair psychologists weigh in with their "diagnoses"
It seems to me the only people besides those with serious mental problems that can not distinguish between reality and fantasy is the religious minded people in the world.
Video games are fantasy. They are NOT real. Sure, some people live as if their online lives in games matter in real life, but then we got people that think some invisible dude in the sky is going to let you in his big ass resort of goodness after you die. We got people that think if they set off a suicide bomb that they will get 100 virgins in Heaven.
The problem isn't video games, the problem is that acceptance of stuff that isn't real, as being real.
I never thought things on TV was real. Even as a kid, and as I kid in the 70's, the TV was my babysitter for most my growing up.
You want to help stop stuff like school shootings to happen? Then make healthcare free for everyone. including mental health. We can try to help people that have a bad grasp on reality and a better chance of seeing the warning sides. I'm not talking locking up people that are suspected they might go batshit crazy, but instead make sure those people are getting the help they need mainly in times of stress, like they lose a job, etc.
Worse, Obama talks about how kids are the future, and yet he wants to spend trillions in wars and not spend money building up our schools and giving the children the help and care they need to be.
Everyone knows what the problem is, but it's cheaper to throw money at other things (the usual scape goats, like Gun Control and Violence in Video Games, then to actually make sure American Citizens have a support system to keep this from happening.
Be seeing you...
Note the false equivalence in your post. Religious right = extreme left. You have to look to the farthest fringes of the left to find what is routine among the establishment right-wing. That isn't an equivalence.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing about, I was reading a bunch of posts about banning guns before I came across this.
It's not insanity or guns that are the problem here. In fact, a person can be quite insane and have guns, and most likely they will shoot themselves first. The problem here is anger management. Clearly, he had anger management issues. So, it is fair to ask, are certain members of our society getting angrier normal in recent years, and what can we do about this? Tension, disputes, disagreements, etc... lead to anger when there is a lack of tolerance from the individual. Now, I have seen some pretty pissed off gamers (seriously, who hasn't been there?), so I think it is fair to at least investigate the link between gaming and anger issues. I have also seen studies that link the expression of anger to general increase in anger. That is, the studies I have seen say that expressing your anger makes you more angry, not less angry. It seems reasonable there may be a connection worth exploring. But, it is clear to me that gaming is not the only source of anger issues. People get angry when they feel they are betrayed. We have to ask, why did the shooter feel he was betrayed? If we had some kind of national "help service" for people who need help, need a friend, need someone to talk to, whatever it is, they need to know there is a place they can go. And they shouldn't have to search for it or dig for it, it should be something as easy as dialing a well known number that is broadcast regularly on TV and radio. People do these kinds of things because they are desperate and emotionally bankrupt. We have to stop this attitude of thinking that all insane people are killers. It's not the insanity that leads directly to killing. It's ALWAYS some underlying anger issues that WE AS A SOCIETY have failed to address. Yes, the parents failed to address his anger problems. Are they to blame? It seems to me (even though I don't know the details) they are partially to blame. They must have seen him as a desperate person with anger problems, and for some reason deliberately failed to address his anger issues. In any case, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Lanza was also a vegan, yet you don't see politicians clamoring for investigation on the potential mental health effects of veganism (B12 deficiency which is common among vegans can lead to mental disorders).
Lanza was on Prozac, yet you don't see politicians asking for investigation on the potential mental effects of Ritalin, Zoloft, Prozac and assorted powerful drugs.
Why this fixation on guns ? Why never investigate any other trail of evidence ?
Maybe we deserve this world ?
"and I'm not in the habit of needless pontification."
You mean like that?
Yep, reality is the US compares to some of the most war-torn and violent places on the planet. Yay! It's only the 14th worst country for gun homicides.
Funny, because Saddam committed all those crimes using US supplied weapons and had US blessing.
Ban alcohol.
Also the shooter probably watched sexual/violent/whatever TV program. ban TV. ooooohhh this is a fun game ! Can I participate too !?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
You can be utterly mentally unstable and still make conscious decision, planning, and so forth. In fact most dangerous sociopath and serial killer can do that for decades ongoing and not be caught.
Unless you have money, no one wants to help.
Lots o' money in the SSRI biz, its just too bad murder/suicide is a "rare" side effect.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Trust is not only something you have to earn, but you have to be able to keep. Our forefathers earned it, the current batch not so much.
Wow. you would punish MILLIONS of legal gun owners for the actions of just a few?
you claim modern Americans haven't earned the right to own a firearm? Last time i checked, the Constitution of the United States stated, quite clearly, that ownership of a firearm is a fundamental Right.
But beside that, I've owned a firearm since I was 16 and I haven't shot a single person. Not even by accident. Wouldn't that say that I am a responsible firearm owner? Or is that not good enough for you?
By your logic, ALL Christians must be banned because the Westboro Baptist Church can't behave themselves. Or the priests (in reference to all the recent child abuse scandals), or the Boy Scouts of America, or the Girl Scouts, or even your local school!
And cars should be banned. And trucks. Why, just this morning I read of a semi in Long Island that flattened dozens of cars, injured 33 people, and killed one. If there were no trucks, that old lady would still be alive.
Oh, and books should be banned. too many ideas come out of books. Ideas that can kill people. Ideas have killed more people than guns have. Why aren't you advocating banning books?
The illogic of the anti-gun people surprises me at every turn. People who claim to stand up for responsibility exhibit none of it.
Just look at western europe. Murder per capita isnt even close to the US. How is it still possible that a suposedly civilized country like the US still
dosent offer free healtcare? Mix that up with people running around buying guns as best they want and you have a serious problem.
This is 2012 get rid of your guns and start offering free healthcare like the rest of the civilized world this isnt medival times anymore, geez.
Seriously, healthcare is a human right. The rest of the world is lauging at you. There is a balance between personal freedom and leting people go without cancer treatment or psychological help. You either stick with the current system and have your freedom and stuff like this keeps on happening or you give a little and
stop this insanity. Dont you guys think its strange that basically the rest of the civilized world think your gun and healthcare laws are crazy?
..from my cold dead hands.
*You have died - Game Over*
Damn.
Video Games are to school shootings/violence as Ice Cream is to Polio.
I should point out that Justin Bieber is a lot less popular here in Ireland than in the US.
This is the same BS that they always say when there is a shooting: we will study the effects of violent games, we will check the gun laws, NRA backs out a little while the storm pases. Then is back to BAU. Legislators and authorites are to affraid of lawsuits that they wont do anything to help the persons with mental illness even if they know there is a risk.
Switzerland has 14 times the number of gun related deaths (per head of population) than that of the UK where guns are much harder to acquire. So although Switzerland may look like a peaceful place compared to the US it still has a significantly worse gun problem than equivalent European countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Don't forget to look at the statistics as well, the gun related death rate in CH is NOT insignificant:
They have the second highest rate of gun related deaths in Western Europe, just below Finland. That's 14 time the number we have in the UK.
Ban spoons!
In response to the top of this thread we find that Switzerland is one of the most godless places going.
The assertion that increasing religion will make things better has so much counter-evidence it's unbelievable!
Okay, let's re-phrase it, the US has the highest rate of gun related deaths in the first world.
You are less likely to get shot in the Philippines, South Africa, Nicaragua or Zimbabwe to name just a few.
Another reactionary bunch of bullshit to point fingers are everything but the people actually at fault here. The mother had the guns available, trained a child with some mental issues how to use them, and then everybody scratches their head wondering if violent video games had anything to do with the guy going ballistic on his mom and unfortunate bystanders.
Why can't bad parenting simply be the problem. Why can't studies start up to improve the quality of parenting? Why is it impossible to for many parents to accept they suck at raising children?
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I'm talking about all the hate I'm reading here. There are lots of people who are so willing to group "others" under a label and then ascribe to that "group" all sorts of attributes such as "stupid", "evil", and assign various opinions and statements to them -- and then hate "them" and spread that hate.
That's ignorant, incorrect and not helpful.
Half the country thinks the other half is ignorant, stupid, evil. That is, Republicans seem to think Democrats are all that. And Democrats are sure that Republicans are all of that. Neither attitude is correct and that viewpoint ensures we will never find solutions to our problems.
I never said that various extreme viewpoints are "equivalent". You just want to create that strawman so you can "win" against him. That's nice, but neatly avoids confronting what I actually said.
And, you are an example of what I am talking about. You are happy-happy-happy to demonize a group you apparently know nothing about -- except what you have been told. While I am not, in any way, religious, and definitely not conservative, the fact that you paint everyone who is Republican and religious as "extremist" simply means that you are part of the problem.
If you only talk to people who agree with you, you will remain ignorant. If you talk to people who disagree with you, you will learn something.
Ah, never mind, I'm talking to the problem.
http://youtu.be/MaF9nbLo8as (Caution! NSFW)
I'm curious, did you mean to miss my point entirely, or was this an incident of pure ignorance?
Yes, the military issues firearm to their militia. No one ion the us is talking about removing guns from out military.
If they want to own a gun, they must be in a security profession where it is needed, and under strict licensing guidelines.
You didn't even read the Wiki page, did you?
Sport shooting is one of the most popular sports in Switzerland. So, unless you honestly think that the majority of Swiss people are "security professionals," that concept doesn't hold water.
So, lets make it so ONLY people in them military can be issued a gun, and only people who are in a security field where one is determined to be needed, and licensing happens every few years, and is very strict.
Or, you know, we could do the smart thing and train people to use guns, instead of resorting to the typical kneejerk, emotional reaction that does more harm than good.
People who bring up the Swiss as proof the gun ownership in the US is safe are idiots.
People who can't make their argument without resorting to childish name calling and personal attacks have no valid argument to make.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
Switzerland also requires that said mentally competent males of military-eligible age go through military boot camp and be part of their National Guard Reserve equivalent. Once their term of service is over, the automatic capability of the rifles is disabled.
Right - proving my point that the issue in America isn't the presence of firearms, but rather the lack of proper training requirements.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Is that actually true? My understanding was that ammunition for the service rifles (whether military full auto, or converted to civilian semi-auto) is only available for sale at the ranges, and must be used there after purchase.
Seems you are correct, per Wikipedia:
Certainly, though, there are exceptions for concealed-carry permit holders.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued.
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Someone else contradicted this elsewhere by saying ammo can only be bought at ranges, but even if it isn't true, there is a world of difference between giving gun permits to trained members of the army reserve - people who've proven themselves to be of sound mind and body, among other qualities - and the US approach of letting anyone who isn't demonstrably insane or criminal buy as many as they'd like.
That is correct, but it is by no means a contradiction of what I said (i.e., I never specified where the ammo could be purchased/possessed).
Also, there is an exception for concealed carry permit holders.
The situation in Switzerland is not even remotely comparable to the US situation, which is one big reason why the don't have the homicide rate you do, or the frequent mass killings you do.
Indeed - the Swiss actually train their youths in proper firearms use and maintenance, and when someone does something bad with a gun, they hold the person responsible instead of blaming the tool.
Pot, meet kettle.
Please god let this obnoxious phrase pass into the history books.
Good luck convincing people to stop saying shit that warrants such a response.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Not the point.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
How about studying violent games while on drugs that pharmaceutical companies and doctors push to our kids? That IMO is the real problem...
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
And my point was that relatively speaking, compared to it's neighbours with lower levels of gun ownership, Switzerland has very high levels of gun related deaths.
Define "nearly constant". 33 years is the longest stretch without a conflict in the history of the US. That sounds like near constant to me.
33 years? of 237?
Vs. how many of 2000 years? (I bet you can count them on one hand...)
So, if modern video games are to blame for people's violent behavior because they are acting out what they see, how come there were no incidents of people wearing blue and red suspenders and hitting things with large hammers or large apes kidnapping women back in the 80's?
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
It was more Peaceful, dammit! Stop throwing things like actual *facts* at me! I don't care if they were busy killing each other...they were doing it with *our* weapons...which means they were being peaceful!
Yeah...
That's it...
Right?
I really do love the extremes some people will go to in order to keep themselves from admitting they just might possibly not have been correct.
FWIW: I misread your OP. Specifically the "current" bit...so I take back my disagreement on that specific issue. But any claims you have made regarding it being "peaceful" in the middle east are well, still quite laughable.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood but you said:
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
And my point was that relatively speaking, compared to it's neighbours with lower levels of gun ownership, Switzerland has very high levels of gun related deaths.
Overall gun death -. A figure that includes suicides, which are non-sequitur to the discussion of firearms-related attacks.
Try sorting by homicides and you'll see a completely different picture.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And the same holds true for about any other place that actually has that much history. Do you think Europe was free from warfare for very much of the last 2000 years?
I also think you are unfairly extrapolating current events to 2000 years of history. In the middle ages the Arab world would have looked on the west as the backwards tribes of warring people that didn't have the same level of knowledge of math and science.
This is all off point. daem0n1x was being a douche to imply that everything was fine and dandy there before the US arrived.
I'm actually pretty sure the middle east has been "The Place To Go" for religious war, terror, death and persecution for over 2000 years now... ...and I really cannot think of any other location on this or any other planet that has seen as much bloodshed and death...which considering the religious fervor of the folks in that region...says far more about religion in general than I ever could. ;-)
I'm not saying we in the west are "Angels" by any stretch. I'm not even saying we're better. We just haven't gotten on that kind of a roll yet. Give us time...
Hmm... not so much. Switzerland still has gun related homicides ~13x higher than the UK
1/. Proper training, (you need a license to drive...should be same for guns). 2/. Today's Auto & semi Auto weapons have no business being retailed! 3/. Hollywood, once there was pretty much a moral code...today's products VIOLENT in extreme. 4/. MOST IMPORTANT!!..PARENTAL CONTROL!!! The kids are largely left with TV & Movie and PEER PRESSURE has taken the place of Parental Authority (both working,single parentage etc.
... so ban drinking water to prevent extermination of millions of innocent people.
Also make sure you have tax payers foot the bill for enforcement.
Coca Cola will fund the study.
It's pretty obvious what that tells us: the drug war kills. Weapon of choice: gun. Take away guns, you take away the weapon of choice (I'm being EXTREMELY generous on this point). But you don't take away what kills.
You can't defend yourself against the government using guns, you dumbarse! You defend yourself against the government by voting. That's as good as it gets.
Waving weapons at the army just gets you dead.
You defend yourself against crazy police by using the justice system. If the justice system isn't working, vote in politicians who will fix it.
Shooting policemen gets you dead.
Have you considered you may be crazy? Your logic seems pretty screwed. Go spend a few hundred on a shrink and check it out.
That still isn't very good for a so-called first-world country. Just look at where European countries and the like (Canada, Australia, NZ, etc) are.
I never said it was peaceful. I said it was "more peaceful". You're trying to use a straw man against me.
Was there any active conflict in Iraq at the time of the Baby Bush invasion? Has Al Qaeda ever set foot there before said invasion? So yeah, it was definitely "more peaceful" at that time. The American invasion was completely illegal and unjustified. Like all American interference there, the only result was to make things worse.
Adam Lanza brushed his teeth. Clearly, toothpaste causes school shootings.
You ASSUME he brushed his teeth. As a card carrying member of NTA (National Toothbrush Association), I am offended that you would lump me in with such a monster. I brush responsibly. Never apply toothpaste until you are ready to brush.
the same people have the same studies conducted to achieve the same effect as they always wanted to have but have so far failed to achieve
anders breyvik killed A LOT MORE people and he claimed to have been an avid world of warcraft player, so there you go blizzard, it's not violent games, it"'s dumbed down games who are to blame
i think the media uses headlines like this just to spark a surefire discussion on the same topic with the same arguments over and over, internet media need traffic after all and slashdot has maybe finally turned into mere 'media' ?
i know a possible soution here : sell videogames only to people who don't have guns?
or just acknowledge that in the breyvik shooting probably 20-30% or more of the victims played the same games the killer did and leave this old world of yours to die and this new world to start growing from under the festering plague you provided as birth ground here
always the same discussion, yet, even i, in all my flawlesness fall for it again
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued.
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Someone else contradicted this elsewhere by saying ammo can only be bought at ranges, but even if it isn't true, there is a world of difference between giving gun permits to trained members of the army reserve - people who've proven themselves to be of sound mind and body, among other qualities - and the US approach of letting anyone who isn't demonstrably insane or criminal buy as many as they'd like.
That is correct, but it is by no means a contradiction of what I said (i.e., I never specified where the ammo could be purchased/possessed).
Also, there is an exception for concealed carry permit holders.
If you weren't explicitly contradicted, you were at least misleading - 'use only at gun ranges' is not what most people think of when they hear 'can ... possess ... ammunition'. As for the concealed carry permit holders, I'd be interested in knowing what restrictions there are on who can get the permits, and how many have been issued: eg are they only issued to security guards, or to anyone who wants one & can pass the psychological/background checks?
The situation in Switzerland is not even remotely comparable to the US situation, which is one big reason why the don't have the homicide rate you do, or the frequent mass killings you do.
Indeed - the Swiss actually train their youths in proper firearms use and maintenance, and when someone does something bad with a gun, they hold the person responsible instead of blaming the tool.
Well, they train their youths in proper use & maintenance because they're part of the army reserves! I should hope they train them well.
My point, which by the way correlates with the Swiss experience, is that strong limits on gun ownership - such as only letting members of the army have military rifles - leads to a lower homicide rate and fewer mass killings.
Pot, meet kettle.
Please god let this obnoxious phrase pass into the history books.
Good luck convincing people to stop saying shit that warrants such a response.
The original phrase is roughly "The pot calling the kettle black." It presumes that the pot and kettle have met already. And - to continue with the anthropomorphization - of course they have! They're sitting right next to each other, and have probably been used together for years, especially given they're both black with soot.
Now, the whole original phrase, by itself, is not so bad, except for the fact that it's cliche.
But the "Pot, meet kettle" phrase is obnoxious. Why? Because the pot and kettle have met already. Why, then, are you pretending they haven't met? It is a rude thing to do, feigning ignorance to prove someone wrong.
You may say this is overanalysis, and you'd be right, but I think it sums up why the 'pot, meet kettle' phrase annoys me.
There are alternatives, too, which are straightforward and nearly as short. In this case, you could have said "You were selective with facts as well."
Anyway, merry christmas, wherever you are. Maybe for a new year's resolution you could give up the guns perhaps?
Cheers
stop this /. myth that "there is no left".
just stop it.
this is semantic game, and a very droll one at that. no one when talking about this country and saying right or left cares about comparisons to other countries outside our own border unless they specifically say and make a comparison to said other country.
any time a poster starts talking about right and left in the US, you'd have to be an idiot to not make the immediate conclusion that the terms are references to relavtive political positions within just this country. republicans are generally to the right and dems to the left on the right/left spectrum used within our country.
this "there is no left" crap is idiotic and only makes you look like a fool
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
not true. germany china australia and france, and others, tend to ban or require edits to many games.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
What you should do is not controling video games , prohibit possessing guns.
The political process is broken, the public is a large contributor to the problem. Nothing will change, except for the worse (because of our inability to cope with change.) In addition, blaming others and refusing to take responsibility is american (well, it as been during my lifetime.)
Counterpoint to the guns/games/movies: Canada & Japan. QED.
Americans don't really believe in mental illness unless a drug company has a drug for it.
THE SAME WEEK IN CHINA: crazy man attacks 20+ school children... with a knife. nobody died. hit the international news 1st, nobody in the USA seems to know about it. Too bad, it sure makes a good statement.
Arming schools? WTF? You'd think with all the news coverage people would know the cops were there on the scene within minutes and that is why he stopped so soon. It took very little time for him to shoot those people. All that BS security schools have been doing didn't work-- he just went around the front entrance security... so now idiotic Americans will demand metal bars around all their windows; making the schools even more like a prison. Naturally, the next nut will just shoot people from the outside of the building between the bars or wait until recess... So then we'll put up barbed wire fending etc... Hire an armed security guard? ha! that'll be the 1st one shot. Metal detectors? wouldn't surprise me that would be a solution in some communities here - it doesn't have to make sense for the school board to do it (the more sensible the less likely.)
Crazy people get elected these days or get shows on Fox News. I blame Fox News for not spotting this man and hiring him to replace Glenn Beck.
agreed Media and Video Games are so not the problem. It is HOW YOU RAISE YOUR F'N KIDS people. Also since Regan closed the mental wards there has been more and more of this type of thing happening all around.
or if you ask my buddy.. he thinks all the shootings in the last year and half were Paid for and Funded by Obama so he could look good by passing gun controll laws. the more shootings the more they will actully work on the laws.