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Ask Slashdot: Would You Recommend Updating To Windows 10?
Plenty of users are skeptical about upgrading to Windows 10. While they understand that Microsoft's newest desktop operating system comes with a range of interesting features, they are paranoid about the repeated update fiascos that have spoiled the experience for many users. Reader Quantus347 writes: Whenever I think of Windows 10 these days I, like so many others out there, immediately feel a swell of rage over the heavy-handed way the "upgrade" has been forced on me and so many others. I had to downgrade one of my computers that installed windows 10 over a weekend I was away, and as a result, I have been fending off the update ever since. I find myself wondering if Windows 10 is actually that bad. With the end of the "free" upgrade period quickly coming to an end, my fiscally conservative side is starting to overwhelm my fear and distrust of all things new, and I'm wondering if it's time to take the leap. I've been burned too many times for being an early adopter of something that proved to be an underdeveloped product, but Windows 10 has been around for long enough that I'm wondering if it might have it's kinks worked out.
So I ask you, Slashdot, what are your experiences with Windows 10 itself, aside from the auto-upgrade nonsense? How does it measure up to its predecessors, and is it a worthwhile OS in its own right?
So I ask you, Slashdot, what are your experiences with Windows 10 itself, aside from the auto-upgrade nonsense? How does it measure up to its predecessors, and is it a worthwhile OS in its own right?
Windows 10 has a number of default settings for privacy and security that are too permissive. If you upgrade to Windows 10 you have to know how to change the privacy and security defaults. Also you should be aware that Microsoft tries to force your hand to use a Microsoft Account as your local login. I recommend doing your homework before applying updating to Windows 10. The only reason why I use Windows 10 is because I bought a PC specifically for the purpose of learning how to support Windows 10. I plan to continue to use Windows 7 Professional on my main PC for as long as Microsoft provides support for Windows 7.
I wouldn't. The UI is a mess in many places, and many programs that ran well under Windows 7, don't under 10. Especially games. 10 offers very few benefit at all.
I know a few assholes I would love to have install that thing !!
It hosed my Win7 machine. YMMV
While my two main machines are Macs, I manage around 15 Windows VMs and touch every new employee laptop deployed in our environment.
Through this, at least on the hardware we use here and the VMs managed under Hyper-V, I have personally witnessed more BSODs on W10 than any version of Windows after the Windows2000 days.
When Windows is required and when it's up to me, we don't use any W10 images and disable the upgrade paths for the users and based on this experience, I recommend no but YMMV.
i just built a gaming system over the winter. all i do is play games on it. windows 10 has been fine. It's not exactly a critical system.
I upgraded my home PC to Windows 10 because I support distance learning students at a college and knew they'd be showing up with laptops with Windows 10 preinstalled. The upgrade fiasco was totally unexpected.
From my POV, I'm not even clear what's different from 7 and 8.1. I mean, I *know* the UI has changed considerably in a lot of places but that's just where you find buttons. Similarly, I have no interest in Modern/Metro Apps or whatever they're called. As long as I can use Explorer to manage my files, launch Chrome to get online and my games work and the software I rely on work (Office, some assorted productivity/video editing software), I really don't care. And all of those things have worked fine between 7/8/8.1/10. I've seen no performance decrease in my path from 7 -> 10.
At some point a file versioning tool showed up in Windows, and it still works in 10, so I guess that's good? The Task Manager seems much improved? I like the flat theme just fine?
Really, I can't help but be reminded of this: https://xkcd.com/934/
IF WINVER == "Windows 7" GOTO END
IF WINVER == "Windows 8" OR "Windows 8.1" THEN UPGRADE
UPGRADE:
ECHO "Don't choose express settings"
END:
Yes I would - its a much better OS than either Win7 or Win8.
However, my frustrations centre around Windows 10 updates (not upgrades to Windows 10 but updates of Windows 10).
The number of times I have opened my laptop for a quick 5 minute task, only to be greeted by "we are installing a system update" and have the next half hour wasted, or the number of times I have rebooted and run into the same thing - oh, and while MS have added a "restart" option as well as the "install updates and restart" option, it doesnt work, updates are installed anyway.
For all the immediate frustrations I have with Windows 10, I wouldnt go back.
From an end-user perspective, avoid the "Metro" or "Universal" apps (or whatever the full-screen touch-friendly keyboard/mouse-unfriendly apps are called these days). The built-in PDF viewer and Photo Viewer are awful. The Edge browser is clearly a browser for a phone or tablet, with lots of absolutely basic options missing. But this advice applied to Windows 8 as well, and somewhat to prior versions, so this isn't really new.
Quit Trolling.
Some people _could_ get work done if Microsoft wasn't constantly spamming them to upgrade.
Some people _can't_ work due to the shitty upgrade process.
If you run enterprise multi-monitor laptop-and-dock type stuff... Stick with 7. Otherwise, it's cleaner than 8 and 8.1 for home use and on par with 7. YMMV.
Just drop acid, already, and invent something better... or quit your whining.
At home I have 2 machines running it, both in the Insider Program, one on slow the other on fast rings. I have had only minor issues like my live tiles disappearing. I think for most people for home use it's fine. At the enterprise I am not upgrading anyone and will instead phase in new machines when we buy new ones before the 2020 windows 7 EOL. I tell people if they are running Windows XP or Vista then it's time for a new system. If they are running Windows 7 and intend to replace the machine before 2020 then there is no pressure to upgrade. Block the install of Windows 10 with Never 10 is the easiest way to not get Windows 10 but still get security updates.If they are on Windows 8 then it's worth upgrading.
In fact, prepare for nothing useful.
That pretty much sums up your entire post.
Well the 2 things I think are worth the upgrade are the BASH Shell (A new way to bash on Windows :) ) and they will also fix the Windows 260 byte path limit.
I bought Windows 10 to go along with my new gaming PC. It takes a bit of effort to turn off all this data collecting but it's doable.
I can't say if performance is better or not, as this was installed on a brand new PC with SSD drive and 32gb of ram and my Windows 7 is a lenovo laptop without SSDs and only 8gb of ram.
But I can say that I don't see a huge amount of difference between 7 and 10 and if you're happy with 7 then the only reason to upgrade is when MS stops supporting 7 altogether.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
If you have a touchpad, then yes.
If you have a desktop, then no. It's not really suited as a desktop OS.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Let's ignore all the under-the-hood badness of Windows 10. Here are the reasons to stick with Win7:
It's like Microsoft fired their (formerly excellent) user interface and usability personnel, and hired a college grad hell-bent on design. Windows 10 may be good under the hood, but the spyware and shitty UI make everyday use a constant irritation.
When I downgraded my workstation from Win10 to Win7 I felt like I went forward in technology. It's uncanny that Microsoft would screw the pooch so bad.
Does the submitter even read Slashdot?
Over, and over, and over, every time Windows 10 comes up in Slashdot stories, there are multiple, +5 Insightful posts pointing out that Windows 10 comes loaded with telemetry. Just LOADED with it. I can't accept that a person submitting a question to Slashdot would not know this, and also would be okay with this notion of data collection ingrained so deeply in an operating system.
Regardless of the options a user chooses in Win10's Control Panel, the user is not TRULY opted-out of all the data collection. This has been discussed ad nauseam, and I have yet to see someone post a solution to block all telemetry collection while still allowing security updates.
Also, you can't infinitely defer reboots after updates are applied. You are going to be forced to reboot at some point that is not of your choosing, and that's a legitimate problem for many people. (Like, the ones who use computers as productivity tools.)
Windows 10 wrests control away from the user in ways that are unacceptable. I cannot compromise on these things. I will not use Windows 10.
i mean ... it's fine, i guess. it's stable, anyway. it runs all the programs i've tried so far. HOWEVER:
do your research and make sure you disable all the keyloggers and adware and "data sharing" features that come bundled with it, which are turned on by default. make sure you're ok with having an operating system that will basically constantly advertise at you, trying to steer you towards the MS store. be prepared to have the thing constantly try to link you up with your "Microsoft Account" and use that as your desktop login. Oh, and hope you like ads on your Start menu.
the good news is you can remove the advertisements from Windows Solitaire for just $1.50 per month! what a deal!
i could live a little longer in this prison
...Yes the HARDCORE FOLKS will cry "SECURITY! MALWARE! INVASION OF PRIVACY!!11!" and more nonsense. The average person who asks me if they should upgrade I say yes....
When I have been asked by "average persons" about the upgrade, I explain the data harvesting that Microsoft will be doing to them and their family. These are not the HARDCORE FOLKS you seem to look down upon, but regular computer users. I showed them Microsoft's comments on the data that are being harvested. I did not add my opinion, I just showed them what Microsoft was saying about the data harvesting.
.
So far, not one has said they wanted to go forward with the Windows 10 installation.
...for most people.
Sure, there are going to be some people who'd be better of with *nix and who could cope with it, but they're not the ones asking. It's my grandma, uncle, cousin, sister, neighbor - all who care NOTHING about the "politics" of OSes, just want something that works.
So my advice is this:
YES, I wholeheartedly advise upgrading to Win10. It is a robust, stable, modern OS. I've been running it on probably a dozen systems since January, and not one BSOD. That's pretty good. It's miles better than XP or 8, and reasonably better than 7. If you're running anything else (shudder, Vista, ME, 2000, etc) it's not even a question.
HOWEVER, *actually* read and attend the install process. TURN OFF shit that you don't need.
As a last resort, I'd rather come over and spend 10 mins cleaning out the Win10 settings cruft and then knowing you're running a decent OS than keep having to try to remember how the hell to do X in XP or Vista when your system goes down, again.
-Styopa
... other than the fact that they are so desperate for people to install it they are resorting to the most amazing levels of subterfuge to basically trick people into installing it?
How good would it need to be to justify looking past that?
Don't fall for their "fear of missing out" deadline.
The only other thing I know about Windows 10 (aside from all the alleged tracking/phone home stuff, which I haven't looked into in great detail but would be a dealbreaker for me) is that it will reboot after running updates without warning (... according to people I know who have suffered from this). I am not sure if this is just some sort of default setting or if it works this way by design. Either way, wtf.
I had no problem upgrading to Windows 10 on my gaming PC. Then again, my gaming PC was built with Windows Vista-certified components and has beefier specs than the recommended minimum for Windows 7/8/10. As for the few hardware issues I had encountered, all I had to do was manually install the Vista driver.
It's an OS. Each version, point or whole, will bring with it changes to services, telemetry, operations, drivers, etc. You can argue how stable version x is, or how secure, or how libertarian it is (at least compared to the limp-wristed commie version which is next up). In the long run, whatever you are on is going to be unsupported and unless you hold a degree in CS and prefer to spend your nights and weekends working on patches and new security exploits, you're probably better off upgrading with the pack.
I imagine there were people who fought tooth and nail against upgrading their gas lights to electricity, too.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Let's see: An operating system that forces in sneaky or not so sneaky way in the first place. and Then...has updates that turn out to be ad servers (not security so MS actually LIED about tha tone), updates that change the rules (Windows 10 pro could shut some "telemetry data" off but they removed that feature later so you had to upgrade to enterprise to get it back), data collectors that send all kinds of data frequently, and MS won't disclose what data they collect. It destroys some computers (friend's daughter hard drive burned out after a forced windows 7-10 update). Need I go on? Oh, and latest, Windows 10 wreaks havoc on some samsung laptops/desktops. Everything about it is, collect data from you for their use (that you can't turn off)...plus ads in your face and undisclosed data collection in massive amounts. Oh, and updates no longer have any significant details save "adding enhancements and feature" on the updates so you can't see what MS is doing to your system until it's too late. You really want to "upgrade" to this trojan horse that constantly changes the rules? Better off with MacOS (not iOS, Apple plays similar games there with feature disabling) or Linux. They you can't trust or know what the OS is doing, time to change the game. Too many secrets, game changers (disabling features you once had) and blatant disregard for the users rights to control THEIR computer. (No, MS you do NOT own people's data your EULA needs to be put into government oversight and roasted over the coals for lack of transparency and invasion privacy; Collecting (potentially) data and passwords...come on....) Would I recommend Windows 10 upgrade? (and this goes double for people in the legal/medical profession..) Hell NO!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
It's not "nonsense. The auto-upgrade is, at best, a breach of trust, at worst an unethical upgrade to a customer's system.
I never upgrade machines; I just wait till a new machine comes with the new OS. That said I went to Windows 10 on new machines at work and home all at the same time, and I have no real complaints, as long as I have:
These are the programs that have made Windows tolerable for me since NT, and as long as I have them, the specific version of Windows has never been too much of a problem.
By the way, I like Windows 10 much more than Windows 8.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
It was released July 29th. So it's been 10 months....guess it's time for you to upgrade!
They don't seem to invalidate your Win 7 key ( and if your on 8 it can hardly be worse than 10). So it's easy enough to roll back if you want to.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
the integrated video recording is WORSE than useless. the bitrate is so terrible (even at its highest quality setting) that the video is completely unusable. literally every other solution i've tried, including free ones like Bandicam, and the free one that came bundled with my video card, do the job far, far better.
i could live a little longer in this prison
My advice, for whatever it's worth, is that if you are running Windows 8 or 8.1, you should go ahead and update. 10 fixes many of the issues that people have with 8, and it will be supported for longer.
As for upgrading from 7, I used to recommend it, but I've changed my mind on that one. The way Microsoft is being extremely pushy about the update is a huge turnoff, and I don't want to support that behavior. If you are running 7, and you are happy with it, then stick with it. Just keep in mind the end of support date for Windows 7 (January 14, 2020) and make sure you migrate from it to something else before then. You still have 3 and a half years, so it's not yet urgent, but it is something you should have in mind.
(On a related token, no machine running XP should be connected to the internet at all, and if you have one you can be certain that it is compromised. Windows Vista support ends in about a year on April 11, 2017, so it is getting to the urgent stage to replace if you are still running that)
Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows.
Upgrade to 10, activate, then reinstall whatever you were working on before if you want to wait. You have to decide if the time ti takes to backup, upgrade, and then re-image to pre-upgrade is worth the potential of saving $100-200 (since upgrades will be, if you believe MS, perpetual to future OSes). At some point you'll be faced with a program which won't run under your current OS. Whether that happens before you plan to trash your current machine is the real question.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I've been greatly annoyed by a number of issues which haven't been fixed (a big one for me is the inability to simply delete/free up no longer used com ports using Device Manager). Network set up for laptops which are moved around to different locations (and will be used with different WiFis) is something which doesn't work as well as with Win7 and Win8. And, there is the bullshit with having to install "WIndows 10" versions of software which works fine under WinXP, Win7 & Win8.
The upgrade process for Win10 seems broken at best with some upgrades being put in regardless of the desires of the users while others need to be explicitly allowed - but Microsoft should know this because they're tracking everything done on Win10 anyways.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
I only use it for playing games (I would never do anything "real" in Windows anyway... regardless of security / update issues) and it works fine. It's plenty fast and the user interface is fine.
For reference: I have it as a clean install on my Mac in a Bootcamp partition. My main issue with it is that I have to hack the AMD drivers to get them to work with my Mac graphics card... but that's a particular issue of my situation and not of Windows 10 in general.
Since I only play games in it I don't concern myself with it updating or phoning home or any of that other crap...
Windows 10 runs well on all of my Windows computers which aren't the Media Center. I'll have to revisit my options when that machine dies.
Windows 10, from a purely technical perspective, is great. It's fast, clean, stable, and relatively secure. Heck, it's the first ever Microsoft OS I've seen that is able to upgrade the average computer without turning it into goat vomit. Prior to Windows 10, this was practically a guarantee.
From a policy perspective.... To quote Darth Vader, "I have altered our agreement. Pray I do not alter it further."
That is basically Microsoft's slogan for Windows 10. Unless you are willing to drop $500 for the Enterprise edition of Windows 10, Microsoft has dictated very clearly that you do NOT have control of your machine. They *will* pull telemetry at their pleasure. They *will* force updates onto your machine whether you want them or not. Hell, they even have the power to copy any data you have on your machine. They will not permit you to block them, at least not at the OS level. If you want to block their shenanigans, your only realistic option is to either buy Enterprise or put a hardware router between your computer and the internet, and do your blocking from there. Or just use it as is and hope Microsoft doesn't continue to alter their agreement further. (Fat chance)
And we all know that Microsoft is far from perfect when it comes to releasing stable updates that don't brick people's machines.
Whether you are fine with this, is up to you. As a sysadmin who is ultimately responsible for the productivity of the employees under my charge, this is completely unacceptable, and we're going to be sticking with Windows 7 as our desktop standard.
What pisses me off the most is that Microsoft's obnoxious behaviour is forcing me to set up a WSUS server, because I now need to vet every single update Microsoft release.
I have it installed on a whole bunch of PCs and tablets. I haven't really had any major problems with it.
Do I have any reason to be excited about it? No, not really. I don't think anything significant has been added to the OS since Windows 7, at least not that I've ever found occasion to use much. Since Windows 8, it's pretty much been about getting the new stuff out of my face.
I find the UI to be clunky and inconsistent. The incessant updates can be annoying -- we're told they're "automatic," but when they actually get installed seems to be anybody's guess, except that it usually seems to happen when I've just switched on the machine to take care of some 10-minute task.
Windows Store/Universal apps are generally to be avoided. Few of them seem to have much value, particularly in a desktop computing scenario. They're either a repurposed version of a web page with an inferior UI (eg Wikipedia), or they're just the usual app store cash grab.
Performance-wise everything seems fine, and maybe a little improved from Windows 8.
If it doesn't sound like I'm really selling you on the upgrade, I guess it's because I'm not. But having taken the plunge, it's not like I have any major regrets. If anything, what's done is done and whether to install Windows 10 is one less thing I need to worry about.
Breakfast served all day!
Not always more features, those running Media Center Edition are gravely hosed.
Microsoft OS upgrades have rarely worked well, a fresh install is usually a lot better and more stable.
Uploading files to the cloud - so that everyone can grab them as soon as the cloud service is hacked.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
> will cry "SECURITY! MALWARE! INVASION OF PRIVACY!!11!" and more nonsense.
You are an absolute idiot.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
No.
Then the answer should be obvious.
Do you also tell these average persons about the data harvesting that Facebook, and Google do, and convince them to not use Android devices?
Having been a Windows user ever since my parents got me my very first personal computer some time around 2000 (I've been through Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows 7) I had to make a similar choice when Windows 10 rolled out last summer. After a long, careful consideration and soul-searching I finally decided not to. So, I was left with the two other reasonable choices - Mac and Linux. In the end I went for Linux (chose Fedora, was also considering openSUSE and Ubuntu). I would recommend considering switching to Linux. It's grown a lot since I first tried it on a live CD some 10 years ago.
Privacy implications aside, I think Windows 10 works great. I've been running it for almost a year now on my Surface 3 tablet and on two different Dell boxes at home. Since two of those machines had come with Windows 8 on them, it was a big improvement.
My only usability complaint so far is that I had somewhere missed a firmware update on the Surface tablet that resulted in a lot of network and video driver crashes for a while.
Generally, I don't use the Edge browser or Cortana very much. The one feature I really do like is the decent multiple desktop support. I've been using crappy, half-assed apps to do this for years on Windows.
As for the privacy aspects, I've had a long standing disagreement with a friend about whether collecting marketing preferences constitute a privacy "violation" or not. I don't really think so, but even if they do, it is entirely voluntary. I really don't care if someone targets me with advertising or mails me coupons for stuff I might want to buy. If you don't like the privacy 'violations' of Windows, there are ways to turn it off, or you can just use Linux. :)
- Necron69
I run it on most of my machines. It's fast, it's pretty, and it's stable. I've had zero hardware issues and zero software incompatibilities. I also have yet to see a black van circling my neighborhood, nor has Microsoft released my social security number, sexual preferences, or DNA sequence on their website, so I'm not terribly concerned that they're spying on me for the lizard overlords.
Since I noticed that Win 10 was using about 1 MegaByte of Bandwidth every hour , while Win 7 was using less than 10Kilobyte every hour and Linux 10 was using less than 10 kilo byte per hour I just left linux mint on my Quad Core with Time Warner Cable I don't care what M$soft is sending monitoring etc there is no reason to be using this much bandwidth
Fresh install, sure. Everyone I know who had major issues with W10 went the upgrade route. I talked a few into doing a full refresh (basically reinstalls itself fresh) or reinstalling clean from media and the vast majority of times the issues went away.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
I have Windows 10 installed on my Laptop (everything but gaming) and my wife's ageing ThinkPad.
I find it noticeably faster esp. on low end Graphics. You mileage may vary.
In comparison to Win 8 (which I had installed, too and which was horrible) it's fairly consistently done and an easy transition for nontechnical users coming from Win 8.
Yes, you do have to opt out of a bunch of stuff that should be opt in. Sadly, the OS is not the only Software you're using that does it this ways. In Chrome you need to opt out of telemetry, too ( https://www.google.com/intl/en... ), Firefox does it right and lets you opt in ( https://support.mozilla.org/en... ). A lot of iOS and Android apps you probably use are "calling home" a lot without even asking you or giving you the chance to opt out (which is bad manners) etc. pp. Apple OSes are a notable exection.
I think as an educated software users we have to adapt by regularly checking the telemetry settings of the software we use like we did adapt habits like manually looking for software updates with security fixes in past times (or defragmenting the harddrive etc. pp.). Computers were never maintenance-free and will remain so.
As aheath said, do your homework before you plunge.
Unless you have some VITAL hardware or software that can not be coaxed to run on Win10 is maddness not to take microsoft on their Win10 Offer. I write this with Slashdot readers in mind, so I guess that fiddling with drivers and VMs is not beyond your kung-fu.
Sometimes, is just a question of installing Vista/7/8 drivers for video, and even Win NT 4 drivers for things like printers and scanners will work (yes, I did it! Epson LX-810 Dot matrix over usbcentronics port be damned). Sometimes, is a question of playing with the compatibility settings a little bit. Yes, is a short term hassle with a long term big payoff.
Yes, some privacy settings are too lax, and some apps (Like the Edge Browser) are a work in progress, but this should not be a problem for the readers of slashdot (did you forgot how to install chrome/firefox/vivaldi/opera? What about FoxIT PDF reader?).
On the same (more or less modern) hardware (say, a quadcore with hyperthreading and 8GB), windows 7 performs better than XP, Win8 better than 7 and Win10 Outperforms them both...
Rememeber the beloved XP is being left abandoned by SW makers (even Chrome does not get more updates), and do you really want to get on the same nightmare in 2020 with Win7?
Sometimes is dificult to update your machine (my Old Toshiba Satellite A135-S2386 comes to mind), but the result is well worth it.
If you want to go to linux, be my guest (I did, during my thesis in 1996, and in my server room in 2001), or if you want to go to mac, all the power to you (is where I am now), but if you want/have to stay in microsoft's ecosystem, win10 is the way to go...
For more info on the topic of WinXP/7 ---> Win10 migrations, please see my posting history.
Full disclosure: I am a Mac user nowadays, but both my BootCamp partitions and the old Tosh are on Win10 nowadays.
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
To be fair, you're replying to an AC, so "nothing useful" should be the expected norm. That said, his point over "concerns" seems valid. I've certainly seen people complain that they can't see the contents of the telemetry because it's all sent over secure connections. Of course, if it was sent in the clear, these same people would complain about that, so...
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
The company who I currently work for used to give us Lenovo SchtinkPads as work machines. Recently, they are now offering Apple stuff, as well. I never thought that I would be forced to leave the Windows platform.
Well, Windows 10 has done it for me. My next box is going to be an Apple.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
I may be mistaken but as I understand it you can upgrade now for free which then associates your hardware with a Win10 license, do the rollback to whatever OS you had (though anything uninstalled for compatibility may be gone?), and then later if you ever want to install Win10 again then you will still be able to for free because it already has the license associated with your hardware.
How to deal with Windows 10 when you are "accidentally" automatically upgraded (via timed auto upgrade, or false close icon, or...)
Gee, you'd almost think there was a difference between the operating system on my computer and a third-party website I don't have to use.
I was just dealing with the fallout of a forced win7 to win10 upgrade. Windows 10 is more resource hungry - particularly RAM. The recommended 2GB are a joke. You need 6GB for it to feel usable. It also lacks drivers for ubiquitous hardware modules that are not that fresh. In my case it was NVIDIA G210M card with hybrid engine - this is the setup where the laptop switches between discrete and integrated graphics, depending on the power state. The lack of support was something I could live with - just use the old windows 7 driver. Except I can't, because updates are now mandatory and automatic. Windows 10 insists on updating to the latest and greatest nvidia driver, which fails causing the OS to use the default VGA driver and produce grotesquely distorted picture. So buying new PC with windows 10 is ok. Upgrading an old system, particularly a laptop may be very frustrating. Failed updates sometimes result in unbootable system, which in my case could only be fixed with clean install. Did I mention that you have no control over the updates??? The come the privacy issues, which are discussed at length by others.
I'll upgrade to Windows 10 when...
* The start menu goes back to the Windows 7 style - that was the start menu perfected!
* Windows XP compatibility mode (the free VM) makes a comeback - because yes, I do play older games on occasion. Yes, Virtualbox, blah blah blah but virtualbox doesn't come with the free XP license.
* When you nix advertising from the OS
Until then, I'm happy with Windows 7.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Yes, if you aren't on a 7" tablet (Windows 8 still works best on a small touchscreen). There are numerous improvements to the kernel under the hood and from a user perspective:
- It boots way faster.
- It uses less battery.
- Command line and powershell are dramatically improved.
- Bash in Windows is incredibly useful.*
- God menu on the start menu through right click to directly go to all of the "deep" settings that are hard to get to in Windows 7 like "network Connections".
- Snap with rescale. If you snap a window to the left. It will automatically ask you what you want to snap to the right. And when you rescale a snapped app of the left it scales the app on the right to fit.
- Most consumer software is targeting it now as the primary OS for bug fixes and QA.
- The new Store deployment and update system is far superior to install/uninstall and when I start up a new system I just hit "Download" instead of tracking down installation media etc. I hope that all of my software migrates to the AppX deployment system. Also cross buy is nice when available. I bought my first game that runs on the Xbox and PC.
- I love being able to get text message notifications on my PC so that I can read texts without getting out my phone. And then even reply.*
- If you have a touchscreen tablet like a Surface it's nice to be able to mix touch apps with mouse/keyboard apps easily.
- Cortana is working well. It sucks in flight and package tracking information automatically which is nice from emails.
- Task bar icons have notifications so my mail app has a little (3) circle right on the taskbar.*
- Native multiple desktops.
- Miracast to PC. You can mirror your desktop to another PC's desktop as a window like teamviewer. Handy for presentations if you want to view on your own computer without huddling over their shoulder. *
- Notification center is just generally nice to finally have on Windows. I look forward though to the summer update when they add universal dismiss so that if I look at an email on my phone it doesn't have the notification at home.
- Lots of new HyperV functionality.
- native Photos app supports animated gifs and mp4s and webm.
- Windows Hello identity management is awesome where it's supported. I only have it on my phone but I want it desperately on my laptop and PC. Death to passwords. You just look at the screen and it unlocks and can (with developer support) even log you into your bank app etc.
- System wide spell checker.
- Vastly improved calculator app.
- Cortana will answer easy questions. "100 cm in inches" right in the task bar.
- Clock on multiple screens.*
- Calendar on taskbar has actual events and appointments since it is a real calendar not a generic date/time widget.*
- Screen capture. Integrated screen/video capture is a hotkey away.
- You won't have to worry about it unexpectedly upgrading.
- It's a rather stable development target. I like it as a developer because I know everybody on Windows 10 is on Windows 10 or Windows 10+6months. Mandatory updates means everybody supports the latest APIs within 6 months so it's not horribly fragmented.
- Updates are super easy. The guy who was playing CS:Go and had his system reboot wasn't upgrading from 7 to 10 he was upgrading from 10 to 10.1 and you can see how relatively painless that process was. It usually takes me about 15 minutes to upgrade to the latest OS with new features. Windows used to take 2-3 years to get a new feature, now they regularly add new things (the summer update is pretty substantial and has a lot of things I already miss not having on my "stable-branch" work machine. They've really streamlined the build and release system so that Windows can be iterated on quickly. I know internally how huge of a deal it can be for development to have a great automatic build and deployment system for accelerating feature development, I'm excited that windows has it now so that Microsoft can focus on add features going forward. It's generally just a new k
To answer your question - I put Win 10 on one of my machines and ended up taking it off after about 3 weeks. There was no upside to the change, just a lot of annoyances.
If you're doing this to save a few bucks before some phony deadline, remember it's the cheapskate who always ends up paying the most in the longs run.
Some points to consider:
First - Lets agree that Microsoft will make money on this deal. This company makes a lot of money, and not by free giveaways.
Second - Would it bother you that Microsoft could modify parts of the OS without your explicit consent?
Third - Would you be upset to find "free" parts of the OS accompanied with advertising unless you pay for "premium" service.
Fourth - Would you be concerned if it became nearly impossible to move your content to a different OS in the future.
Fifth - Is this a choice that you are freely making after exercising you own good critical judgement. Or are you being bullied into a decision by a marketing ploy.
Good luck!
I would say that you need to go into it knowing that Microsoft isn't making recurring license revenues off the Home and Pro versions of Windows anymore. Therefore, if you're on either one of these editions, the defaults will set you up for maximum data sharing and you should probably reduce this to the lowest level possible. The Enterprise version, which requires recurring revenue paid to Microsoft and is aimed at businesses, is the only edition that you can completely shut off the telemetry on. In Home and Pro, your usage data and eyeballs are what pay the bills. Savvy users should visit the Settings page and start turning that stuff off. If you're really serious about it, you should also configure your home firewall to block known telemetry traffic paths out of your network.
With the privacy restrictions in place, it's a good upgrade and runs well on most older systems as well. I actually like the fact that the Home edition is pretty much locked into updates, because most Home users frankly can't be bothered with keeping their computers up to date. I'd rather have systems like that secure than in a botnet, especially since most home users are running with administrator rights on their everyday account still (and will continue to do so after an upgrade.)
To be fair, you're replying to an AC, so "nothing useful" should be the expected norm. That said, his point over "concerns" seems valid. I've certainly seen people complain that they can't see the contents of the telemetry because it's all sent over secure connections. Of course, if it was sent in the clear, these same people would complain about that, so...
Do you not think it ridiculous that you have to play guessing games as to what of your personal information is being transmitted to the 107 domains that Windows 10 connects to whenever you do anything?
Instead of dismissing the people concerned about spyware by saying 'nothing will please the complainers', why don't you take note of the fact that millions of people use FOSS every day because they DON'T want to be spied on? The fact that Microsoft's clients and subsidiaries are getting their surveillance over a secure connection does nothing to sway us.
And what/who is compelling you to use Windows products when Linux for the desktop is free and Mac OS is out there if you want to pay for it?
Pros:
Cons:
So yes it's worth upgrading, but no it's not quite ready yet. But you don't have to decide by July 29. You can upgrade to it, and r
I was initially a little wary of Windows 10 but when I started using it I was all right with it - for a while. It seemed to be stable, it ran the applications I needed (Pinnacle Studio and PaintShop Pro) and it seemed to be faster than Windows 7. Seemed like a good move for me.
But then I got a new computer with Windows 10 pre-installed. I thought, "great, now I can move my old computer to Linux like I planned and still run my important applications on the new one." Things were fine, until I realized that I was connected to the network without having entered my network password. And it knew my passwords on various websites that I had accessed with Edge. It knew how to access my bank, my social media - everything. Now, I am not a big fish by any means, but I do not like the idea of my passwords and keys being stashed on a server over which I have zero control.
Do I believe Microsoft will do Bad Things with that information? No, I don't. It's convenient to have it know what I need for me so I don't have to look it up. But, it's unnerving that they harvested that info without my knowledge. It also is unsettling to think that it's on a network computer somewhere.
On this basis alone I hesitate to recommend Windows 10.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
A friend's Dell that uses bluetooth for everything was hosed beyond repair, because it killed the keyboard and mouse functionality even in the bios. He closed the popup for weeks and was caught by the latest "update" that made the red X mean "yes, please fubar my box."
Telemetry? Canonical, Redhat and others have been collecting telemetry on various issues for years. However, Microsoft is a closed box - so you really believe telemetry data from a corporation that is opaque and has already agreed to aid law enforcement by essentially fishing for untoward activities, is not a big deal? This is literally allowing LEA an open window into your home.
How's that for FUD? Facts, Uncertainty, and a Dubious product.
The likelihood I'll upgrade is inversely proportional to the urgency with which MS wants me to do so. If they're ramming it down my throat, it can't be for MY benefit, right? Besides, at work I use software which MUST run IE 10.
you won't be an early adopter, as it's been out for a year.
But ultimately you never stated what you use your computer for? For the average person, they shouldn't be using Windows anyways as Ubuntu will do everything they need to do, for free. However, I've been telling most home users to go get a Mac. I truly think for home use non-gamers there is no reason to purchase a windows based machine, none.
For gamers, unless you want to wait for a large system upgrade and buy Windows 10+ at the time, you really do want the update for DirectX. I updated my machine the day Win10 was released, and not once have I wished I hadn't.
How did you upgrade Vista to Win 10?
Not only is it not a supported upgrade (you would have to do a clean install, or upgrade via an intermediate step of Win 7 first) it's also not a free upgrade for Vista owners.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
I have about 4 or 5 PC's at home running Windows 7 (plus some virtuals and a work laptop) and none of them will ever see Windows 10. So far there is no reason to upgrade and plenty of reasons to stay away. At this point, I don't even want to learn anything more about it. I'll skip over it and scrutinize Windows 11 a bit closer when it comes out. But for now I'm treating Windows 8, 8.1, & 10 like I treated Vista. It's of no concern.
For those who want to keep Win7/8 but want to make sure they won't have to pay for WinX after the end of July, just grab a fresh HD/SSD and perform a WinX clean install instead of an upgrade of your existing system. Remove the HD/SSD and replug your old Win7/8 drive and keep the WinX install until January 14, 2020.
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Lots of major UI frustration in 8 is now resolved. I've moved every Win machine I manage form 8 to 10 except my wife's machine that's still on 7 and she knows by heart - but that'll go soon too. It's the best touch-windows so far on some Surfaces I manage. Deny every last one of the reporting and sharing options that come up during / after install. Install Malwarebytes and AVG immediately. Spend a half hour removing the fluffware on the home screen and in the programs list. Then install the things that work well for you. It seems like the best unified Win experience since 2000 Pro.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Gee, you'd almost think there was a difference between the operating system on my computer and a third-party website I don't have to use.
You think Google and Facebook only track when you're visiting their websites?
Number of Users: -3
Average Time Used Per Day: 27 Hours
Help Requests: Undefined
PC Hardware: 128K RAM, 1.44MB floppy and 6mHz CPU by Zilog
I explain the data harvesting that Microsoft will be doing to them and their family.
This has all been backported to Windows 7 and 8. You did know that right? You told them that too right?
So far, not one has said they wanted to go forward with the Windows 10 installation.
Why? Because they prefer to have all that tracking going on in windows 7 instead? I mean you DID tell them all that tracking had been installed on their windows 7 PCs too right?
I showed them Microsoft's comments on the data that are being harvested. I did not add my opinion.
I guess they all stopped using windows 7, and probably cancelled their facebook accounts on the spot too right?
See the trouble with your approach is that you are deceiving them by omission. Practically everything you showed them about windows 10 is in Windows 7 now, unless you take steps to prevent it. (And if you are taking steps to block it... you might as well take the steps to block it in Windows 10.)
Its like if I asked you whether I should replace my pet tiger cub with a pet lion cub, and then you showed me just how dangerous a pet lion would be to me and my family. So I decide to stick with my tiger based on your unbiased information. You know... because: safety.
Bottom line if you care about data harvesting, and you are even slightly normal then you will install a 3rd party tool of some sort to manage those settings.
You will do that if you wish to stay on 7 or whether you run 10. So you might as well upgrade to 10 because its generally better. (Unless here is some OTHER reason not to; like you need X which only runs with 7.)
When I have been asked by "average persons" about the upgrade, I explain the data harvesting that Microsoft will be doing to them and their family.
And depending on how you ask this question, the answer will be what YOU want it to be. The "data harvesting" is well documented and is on the same level as Facebook, Google, DuckDuckGo, etc. This telemetry has been common place in software since XP (at least). Any "user experience" reporting, crash feedback, or online knowledge base/help system is gathering the same data that Windows 10 is.
You seem to be a little misinformed. DuckDuckGo advertises itself as "The search engine that doesn't track you. Learn More."
Telemetry may be common, but not by an Operating System. Users can easily choose not to use Facebook or Google. Choosing a different operating system, however, is much more complex.
I've been using Windows 10 since a few days after it came out. Now the things I won't even touch on here are any mention of telemetry or ads. Those points have been argued to death, resurrected, killed again, their graves salted, demons re-summoned, and then sprayed with holy water. If you haven't made up your decision about telemetry yet then chances are you don't care. I also won't mention the update policy. I'm not happy with it but I've made my peace with it.
In summary: The system is fast and solid but has some very annoying bugs, some worthless features, and really seems to lack polish.
Now to the system itself: ... I'll leave the but for the bad.
The good:
- It's fast. Seems to be snappier than Windows 7 and 8 on the same hardware.
- It's resource friendly, which kind of ties in to the above given that the machine I use it on has 4GB of RAM.
- It's stable except for the occasional truly bizarre bug. I mean I've never had it crash or bluescreen, but
- Input recognition (you may not care about this) is excellent. This is the first system which can actually quite accurately read my handwriting.
- Metro as the interface is invisible. If you don't enable tablet mode you don't see it. No more of this jarring movement between desktop and tablet mode just for hitting the start menu.
The okay:
- Metro is a bucket of shit. The concept itself was came up by a psychologist who doesn't understand the alphabetical order. The idea of being able to organise start menu items in square icons for maximum density is not compatible with the way our brains search for what to click on, regardless if the mouse movement is less.
- The metroish interfaces are equally buckets of shit. The replacement control panel is still not a replacement. That said the ability to quickly get through to critical parts of your system by a right click on the start item is fantastic.
- Some of the options are completely half-arsed. e.g. you want to hook a bluetooth network device to your laptop? Go to the settings panel, in through networks and bluetooth and pair. Then completely close that window and go find your devices (I say find since it's not longer a start menu option) and then you may find your bluetooth device and get given the option to pair as an access point. Now at this point you may think that it will ask you if you want to set this as a metered connection, but no. That is a feature reserved for WiFi connections as far as I can see.
- The default apps are garbage. While windows picture viewer on Windows 7 was at least able to display a picture, the way it loads the picture on windows 10 completely breaks large images if you zoom in (then it renders a higher res) and then zoom out again (now you have the original view with a aliased high resolution section of whatever you zoomed in on).
- The system is full of stupid bugs. e.g. when used with a tablet which is context aware as to if it's being used as a laptop it automatically locks the screen rotation. Okay makes sense you don't want to type with the screen sideways, but... it locks the screen rotation WITHOUT FIRST CHECKING THE ORIENTATION. This may sound like nothing but it's driving plenty of Surface Pro users mental. Use the tablet in vertical orientation while reading. Pack it away. Unpack it on the desk in a laptop setup and it's now stuck in the vertical orientation.
Basically the entire system is not full of showstoppers, but it really looks like it wasn't tested at all before release.
To the ugly:
- Not since Windows ME have I had a system inexplicably eat itself. Windows 10 has never crashed for me, not once, not across 4 devices, and not even with faulty hardware. However... it did one day just decide it needed to recover something. Tried auto recovery, nope. Tried manual recovery, nope. Tried a system restore (apparently this needs your bitlocker credentials which it was unable to get access too). Since this was a Surface Pro 3 I ended up downloading the system image from MS's website to do a comp
No.
Next question...
So, you're angry with M$ and therefore their OS sucks? Sorry, that's not causation. If you're actually someone who should be reading "News for Nerds" you can like or dislike Win10 on it's own merits, not just what the company is doing.
First, privacy issues suck. Horribly. You can turn off many of them. A few others you need to turn of on a MS website. All of that is easy to find documented on the web. That doesn't get them all. Turning off Cortona and keeping it off takes a bit of work.
Upgraded three desktops and one laptop of various powers, purpose and pedigrees. All went easy. All kept my data and software. You need to be aware that buttons that they want you to push (such as setting up a MS account) look like buttons, and buttons they don't want you to push (like setting up a local account) look like links and sometimes take a few extra screens.
None of them had cutting edge hardware, including the laptop. If you are worried about that, flex your nerd-muscles and check it out first. Everything including integrated components on the laptop had drivers from either MS or the vendor.
Haven't blue-screened once on any of the four. I have had an issue where it closed a program because it was running out of memory, which was legitimate but still unexpected.
Performance has been fine including gaming, but I don't run anything ultra-intensive. Multi-monitor support has been fine. Updates can cause reboots overnight, but won't be a surprise unless you don't touch the machine for a week.
Start menu can be made more useful without needing 3rd party, but it's a bit of work to customize it. MUCH better then 8.1, slightly worse than 7.
Edge is better than IE, but who cares because who uses a MS browser?
If you have windows 8.1, upgrade. If you have windows 7 I'd say it's up to you, but your window for free upgrades is closing. Extended support for Win7 ends Jan 24, 2020. So that's 3.5 years. I wouldn't expect that Win10 will be replaced by then, so eventually it's going to be Win10 or a non-Windows OS. Up to you if you want to take the plunge now or in a few years. Considering how hard MS was pushing to get people up to Win10, I wonder how much support the older versions are going to get from 3rd parties for anything new coming out.
LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
I recently bought an HP Spectre laptop that came preloaded with Windows 10, and overall I would rate it far above Windows 8, but slightly below Windows 7.
Some pros:
It works pretty well for the Spectre, which is a convertible touch-screen ultrabook - I think the tablet mode of Windows 10 works much better than anything Windows 7 could do. That said, >90% of my usage for the thing has been hooked up to a monitor acting as a desktop, with a minority of the time using it portably and even less time using it as a tablet.
I was pleasantly surprised to find a $50 credit to use in the Microsoft App store (not sure if that was part of the PC purchase or if it comes with Windows 10) and while the store isn't as well established as Android or Apple App stores, I got some pretty neat PDF apps, flowchart tools, drawing apps that use the touch screen, and some circuit-building stuff that would be handy if you're an electronics hobbiest. Many of those apps would be unavailable on Windows 7.
Cons:
The screen is moderately high-resolution, but a number of applications don't seem to handle that well. Something about Cleartext or anti-aliasing just doesn't work quite right, so I find myself forced to choose between text that is too small to read comfortably, or scaled-up text that looks atrocious.
For some reason, sleep and hibernate almost never work like they ought to... if I try to wake the machine up with a keypress, it will give no outward indication of activity for a minute or two, and then suddenly be ready to go. Or sometimes it won't, so I wait for two minutes, and then get irritated and do a hard restart.
Overall assessment: Windows 10 offers a few unique features for a laptop (particularly a convertible one), and if you have that sort of machine you'll probably appreciate that. For a desktop or normal laptop, I'd stick with Windows 7, though. 10 isn't horrible, but it certainly has some downsides and rough edges.
I'm still of the opinion it's too early. Most of the performance issues seem to be fixed (it no longer takes 2-10 seconds to get the notifications sidebar to appear, for example), but the system still crashes more often than Windows 7. There's the forced updates and autorebooting thing. And, of course, there's that security thing...
I would strongly suggest that if you migrate to Windows 10, you do it on a fast, high memory, machine. 8Gb should be considered the minimum.
On the other hand, if you're using a Skylake chipset, remember Microsoft has publicly announced it will only have limited Windows 7 support for that, so you may find yourself stuck with 10 anyway.
If you do install it, I would strongly advise you to install Windows 10 Professional, which is the least crippled "consumer" Windows. By "crippled" here, I mean "least likely to slow down to a crawl installing updates when you don't want it to, followed by an unavoidable-in-practice reboot. The options right now are:
- Insider Windows - free, but regular reboots and the installation of software that may literally never have been properly tested.
- Windows 10 Home - $100 or an existing Windows 7-8.1 Home license - automatically reboots at least once a week, and installs the latest version of everything whether you want it to or not.
- Windows 10 Pro - $200, or an existing 7-8.1 Pro license - only automatically reboots if it installs security updates that requires a reboot. You're not required to install the latest version of everything, only security updates.
I would hold off until late June, then install Windows 10 Pro. Install all updates. Turn off the privacy invading options. Turn off Cortana. Select "Notify to Install" and "Defer upgrades" in Settings -> Update and Security -> Windows Update -> Advanced Options. And remember: you can revert back within a month of the install if it turns out to be a terrible mistake.
10 looks nice, but it was rushed out, and it shows.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
WinOS 10 is not so much an operating system as it is a thin client designed to control a product.
The product is you.
Twice as crazy as I would be if I was half as crazy as I am.
I have a Dell 11.6" laptop that came with Win10. It's mostly used by my wife to check weather forecasts each morning when we're traveling (she has an iPhone, but for reasons understood only by her she prefers the laptop for this purpose). I did install Mint (dual-boot) on this little system, but I rarely feel the need to boot into it other than to keep it updated.
We also have two Win7 desktops and a Win7 laptop in the house. I have no plans to "upgrade" them to Win10, as they fulfill our needs as they are. Updates are set to "let me see them before they're downloaded" on all of them to avoid an unintended upgrade.
It People should get over their OS obsession and focus on doing some actual work.
I haven't obsessed over an OS since I installed Linux years and years ago; that decision enabled me to focus on actual work.
I did an in-place upgrade soon after it became available. I was impressed with how well it worked. I turned off things like Cortana and I went digging to shut off the notifications tray. Since then I haven't really done any big tinkering with it and it's worked well for my day to day use. I did play with adding a list of MS DNS names to my DNS block list on my router to try to cut down on the stats gathering. No idea how much that has or hasn't helped.
First off, telemetry and tracking are not the same thing. Many applications do telemetry, and it's primarily around improving quality. I know this because as a consultant I see a lot of codebases, and no, they rarely ask for permission. Railing against reality is a bit Quixotic; take a deep breath and move on.
And yes I would recommend a Win 7 -> Win 10 upgrade. The Ctrl-Esc experience is simply superior overall, faster boot, storage spaces for the techies, better multi-monitor experience, and obviously my Surface Pro (8.1 -> 10 is a no-brainer) would be nigh unusable without touch support. Also, since I use a lot of VMs, I like my settings and and apps following me around. Given the imminent release of proper long file name support, the upgrade becomes even more compelling to the javascript crowd.
Take note? You mean, like, look at my own systems? I run more than a handful of Linux systems, personally. Also OSX and Windows for software that doesn't exist on other platforms; when working in an industry that uses standardized software, you run that software, which means you run the platform that software expects. No, WINE does not work for everything.
The complaint I keep seeing is not that the information is sent, but that we can't see what information is sent. There are two solutions to that problem:
A) Send the information in plaintext. Of course, then (as I already mentioned), people will complain that the data is being sent in plaintext.
or
B) Store a plaintext log of the telemetry data for the user to review. Of course, then, people will point out that, because it's sent over an encrypted connection, there is no way to verify what's actually being sent.
For examples of (B) in the FOSS community, look at the crash reporting used by Firefox and Ubuntu. Yes, Ubuntu, the entire distribution. Sure, they show you what they're supposedly sending, if you're interested to look, but the data is sent over an encrypted connection so, well, unless you compiled it from source (using a trusted compiler you also wrote yourself) from code you've fully reviewed, you're putting your trust in whoever provided the binaries, compiler, and/or source code.
So, you choose to trust a platform vendor serving thousands or millions of systems and collecting a much smaller amount of data (easier to sift through) rather than a vendor serving billions of systems and collecting a much larger amount of data (more difficult, to the point of impossibility, to sift through). You're still giving up telemetry data to your vendor and you're still relying on trust. The tradeoff you make is that you can't reliably deal with graphic designers (who use Adobe tools as a standard) and video production studios (who use Adobe, Apple, Sony, and Lightworks software as standards), nor can you sell well-tested software for Windows or OS X. Of course, if you don't need to work with designers or video studios and you don't sell software, yeah, Linux can be a workable desktop solution; and yes, that covers a rather large portion of the population. However, it also fails to cover the majority of high-paying professions.That's why people with money use Windows and/or OS X; not because they can afford to use them, but because they can't afford not to.
Careful you don't fall off that high horse, friend, you seem to be losing your grip.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I tried everything. Reinstalled driver, searched via Google, and so on and so forth. Nothing helps. Ethernet card keeps disconnecting about four - five times per day. I did not have this problem with Windows 8.
Settings windows on W10 are kind of touch-screen, but it is a notebook where I cannot touch screen at all. Besides W10 is slow. I stopped indexing but it is still slow.
The only good thing is the return of Start button, but again for some reason Search&Run is not in the Start, but nearby, and it does not memorize previous entries.
In my opinion, Bill Gates has to return back to Microsoft and put Windows back on the right track.
I use it on my work laptop, which I also take home and sometimes use if I want to do something in Windows. Saves having to go hide away from the family on my bootcamped Mac Pro.
I think the main reason people go nuts over the data collection is because it's Microsoft....nevermind the fact that they probably have Facebook and Google accounts - for the record, I don't have an issue with either of these companies either and use services from both.
In this day and age, there is no privacy online. Don't kid yourself. What you can control is what you make available. And there's always a choice, if you don't like the terms, don't use the service.
For me....Windows 10 is fast, stable and has a few extra enhancements that I like over older versions of Windows. The store is also being cleaned up and expanding, and universal apps are interesting to me. It came bundled with the laptop....and I have one other PC that's eligible for a free upgrade before the end of July which I'll be taking advantage of too.
Door #1: perfectly fine Windows 7 + somewhat tolerable EULA
Door #2: barely improved Windows 10 + "improved" EULA
Microsoft's Windows 10 is a privacy nightmare
First there is the hit to your TCO to have to read and digest this. Then there's the hit to your TCO to research defense against the dark arts (which usually proves to be a moving target). Then there's the hit to your TCO when someone tells you that Microsoft subsequently softened this language, but you're doubtful they softened it all that much, only it's too painful to contemplate having to check it out again so you wallow in rational ignorance until the end of time, a mononucleosis of self-determination.
Don't go there. You deserve better.
No.
W10 fails to offer sufficiently useful functionality improvements over previous versions of windows.
W10 is indistinguishable from malware.
Microsoft has proven it is not a trustworthy software vendor having successfully demonstrated to the world it will do anything it can possibly get away with to deliberately force, mislead and cow people into doing what it wants.
I don't trust Microsoft.
GWX is the first in a long line of insults and privacy breaches. I no longer trust MacroShit.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
http://bit.ly/1spoAwT
Look Microsoft is not giving Windows 10 away for free and foisting it on everyone for no good reason. You are the product in Windows 10. They are going to collect your data and use it to serve you ads and possibly sell it to third parties. If you try and disable some of the services that do this they will rename the service and re-enable it with a non optional automatic update see here if you think I am joking http://bgr.com/2015/12/01/windows-10-privacy-preferences/ It's not your computer anymore and you exist at Microsoft's whim. Go ahead and update. Their main goal is to be able to tell advertisers they have a billion devices on which they can serve ads. By the way live tiles ar ads in case you have not figured that out.
Are you running Windows 7?
Yes - Goto A
No - Upgrade to Windows 10 (Honestly in all ways Windows 10 is better than Windows 8/8.1)
A) Do you need DirectX 12?
Yes - Upgrade to Windows 10
No - Goto B
B) Do you need to test in Edge?
Yes - I guess you better install Windows 10, but maybe after a installing, install Windows 7 in a dual boot for actual work
No - Stay on Windows 7
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
I was thinking about updating one of my machines to Win 10. A machine that usually only the kids used for browsing and other simple stuff. Then I realized that for my situation at hand, a Chromebook would be a much better option.
Why go into all that Win 10 nonsense if the machine is only going to be used to watch Netflix, go on Instagram or pull up homework for school?
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
I'd agree with the "dozen qualifiers" analysis, FWIW. The main reason to "update" to Windows 10, such as it is, is that the support period will be longer than that of Windows 7.
(I'm assuming OP is considering an update from Windows 7, the last good version of Windows... if you have Windows 8.x for some reason, the by all means, go ahead and go to 10.)
Be ware that virtually everything new in Windows 10 is a downgrade from Windows 7, though, and you'll need to do a lot of unchecking defaults and turning off things to get it into a reasonable state. You may also find yourself annoyed, as I was, with the extra click-throughs and confusing UI with control panel items before you can get to the actual controls, the non-intuitive and frustrating behavior of UAC, and the extra advertising spam in the OS. Also, most of the touted new features will be inaccessible without giving all your data to MS (eg: no MS account login, no integrated anything).
This needs an up-mod. Google and Facebook track you across the internet even if you do not use their services and even with all the javascript, java and such disabled, they still seem to find a way to keep an eye on you.
I use my home desktop primarily for leisure.
I have disabled or blocked the telemetry. This costs me a few features like Cortana and predictive text entry. If you like those features enough on your phone to send similar data to Apple or Google, it might be worth leaving it enabled on your PC. With a full keyboard and mouse, I don't see the point.
Games are going to benefit tremendously by moving from Direct X 10/11 to Direct X 12, and Windows 10 is the only OS that will support it. I would like to see UWP applications take off since it's based on better security model than Win32, so hopefully that will happen but it's not guaranteed. Technically, the Windows Store is also available on 8/8.1, but I'm skeptical about how much longer those versions will see new features.
If you're into those features, the upgrade is a no-brainer. If not, then it's not terribly important aside from end-of-life concerns for your current OS.
My upgrades went smoothly on a home-built PC and a laptop. There is a pre-installation compatibility wizard, though, so pay attention to it. All of my apps and hardware scanned green, so I expected smooth sailing. I don't use resident antivirus software, however, and I might suggest removing it temporarily if you do decide to upgrade---this used to be a major cause of problems.
On the enterprise side, the new security features make Windows 10 an absolute necessity if you have a functioning brain---but most of these "under the hood" changes offer little to home users. Still, Bitlocker and SecureBoot should be enabled if you are not dual-booting to another OS on that machine.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
It all comes down to CHOICE, and how Microsoft is unilaterally deciding that you don't get one anymore, with hardware YOU OWN.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Hold off on switching to Windows 10 until you build a PC for some future game with a graphics card where DirectX 12 matters.
Hopefully by then fixing all the security issues that Microsoft has intentionally introduced will be easier. The time to do this depends on the sort of gamer you are, maybe you will do such an upgrade a year from now.
My hope is that eventually the SteamOS platform will be a viable option for most gamers as Vulkan support becomes more widespread. Then perhaps game engines will spend their time trying to squeeze performance out of Vulkan instead of DX12. If that fantasy ever becomes reality, then Windows 7 will be the last version of Windows I use.
(disclaimer: if you have different requirements and constraints than I do, your answers to these questions will obviously be different)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Here is what I tell the clients I support (most of whom are older and definitely not gamers):
If you have Windows 7, you already have the most reliable version of Windows ever made. It will keep getting security updates until 2020, so there's really no need to upgrade to Windows 10, especially if you have any privacy concerns. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If you have Windows 8 or 8.1, you should upgrade to Windows 10 because it's way more reliable, and also gets rid of the user interface problems that most users seem to hate. The Windows 10 kernel is based on Windows 7, which is why it's so much more stable than 8 / 8.1.
In either case, you may need Classic Shell if you want a Start menu that still has the Control Panel on it. But even without Classic Shell, the Windows 10 Start menu is a huge improvement over the horribly infuriating "Start screen" from Windows 8 / 8.1.
If you like bugs, viruses, and wear a tinfoil hat then stick with Windows 7, on the other hand if you don't like those things and don't believe Microsoft to be the Grand Poobah of the Illuminati then definitely upgrade to Windows 10. The only actual downside to Windows 10 are the forced system updates which can reboot your system without your consent if you don't pay close attention to the update settings.
-==- Buy a Mac and leave me alone!
Having done windows 10 upgrades on all 6 PC's I have say that it doesn't always work out of the box so to speak. The last PC I upgraded didn't go as planned.
Windows 10 decided not to install drivers for my GFX card and the sound card would hang making loud annoying sounds.
But a visit to the nvidia website fixed the graphics problem and re-installing the sound drivers using the windows 8.1 driver worked a treat.
Saying no to 90% of the questions is always a good idea (those are the questions that you get if you choose not to go with the express defaults)
I had to re-install the win8.1 webcam driver too. But then everything worked.
Startup is about 3 seconds faster 10 seconds as apposed to 13 seconds to boot (from grub boot screen to windows) - My PC is dual boot and is running an SSD.
Copying from SDcard to my NAS (windows 8.1) 1.2MB/s (Windows 10) 56MB/s (linux 4.6) 48MB/s So that is well fast in windows 10.
Games seem to work as well as on windows 8.1.
It its annoying how microsoft do all they can to make you sign in with a micrsoft account. You can get round it by choosing Create account, then choosing don't use a microsoft account.
Great.
- Better PS that I don't use.
- Better HyperV that I don't use.
- Better Office 365 that I don't use.
- Better touch screen that I don't have and doesn't want on a laptop or desktop PC.
- Better task switching? In what way? I am force to use it (win10) at work and I haven't even notice any changes so I guess i don't use that either then.
- Edge browser? You got to be kidding.
To be honest, I don't see the value for most people to switch. The only thing positive that I can say about Win10 is that the GUI now is better than Win8. But it is still extremely inferior to Win7 on a desktop or laptop. Most I have talked to dislike it. The modern parts feels forced and confuses them. It is still two GUIs in one.
MS trying to shove it down our trouts have only made me want Win10 less.
What's wrong with my current XP setup?
(running sand-boxed in VM Ware)
Maybe upping to 7 or 8 off of ebay might be wise...
I'm expecting to have to support it, so I went the Insider route on a tablet PC I have that didn't work for me with Windows 8. Happy enough with the results. I haven't yet found a program that doesn't work. I even got a Windows Phone (Lumia 640) a year ago, because I was bored of Android. That's running W10 too, and I haven't regretted it. (The "no apps" whining is largely bogus: half or more of the apps people complain about Windows Phone not having are basically websites in app form: just use the mobile website instead.)
I've supported Windows Server systems for years, and long wondered when someone was going to do an Internet-based Single Sign-On (SSO) service like a Windows Domain. That's basically what M$ did, though understandably feature-limited. No "roaming profiles": too bandwidth-intensive, and it might not be necessary in a "cloud" world.
I consider Microsoft to be on "probation", how they behave will determine whether I stick with Windows. From a career point of view, I might even go for W10 certification, just to be ahead of the curve - it wouldn't be a major pain to do, in my opinion. If they screw it up, I can still get work done on Linux. I'm not so "invested" in Windows that I would get upset either way.
(this is not a
So... upgrade to operating systems that lack functionality (major games, major software packages, etc) or are grossly unstable (Never had good luck with Linux Desktop, personally...)... and then you have to relearn how to use less features and less stable features...
Yeah... that's a winning combination...
If you are going to stay stuck in the past, at least stay on Windows 7 with GWX Control Panel or Never10 installed.
It's the best OS they've made yet for tablets, laptops, and desktops. There's lots of fud on here about why it's evil but there's really very few real reasons not to just get it as long as your hardware supports it.
None of that shit happened to me. I bought a digital download version off Microsoft's own store, fresh install.
Where is Windows 10 advertising at you? Mine just annoys me with updates every few weeks.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
I actually like Win10 (privacy/telemetry issues aside), and it's the first MS OS I've actually been (mostly) impressed with since NT 3.51 (which was solid as a rock.)
But the main reason I would want to upgrade any machine I can is that once installed and activated, you can re-install Windows with the download ISO image from Microsoft. That means you can take a crapware laden OEM piece of shit, upgrade to Windows 10, wipe it and reinstall a virgin Windows 10 with no further activation issues, no OEM crapware.
I had an Asus netbook I'd bought for my daughter that had Windows 8 on it. It was so slow it was hardly usable. I upgraded it to Win10 and it became pleasantly usable. The UI is responsive and HD video runs fine.
If you're on Win7, it may not be compelling, but for the travesty that Win8 was, it's definitely better.
Where can I buy a barge pole?
Apple treats people like shit.
Apples is the least open and least compatible, even failing to work with earlier versions of products they made.
If you want openness, use Linux. Fedora, CentOS and Ubuntu are great.
If you want an OS that is most compatible with hardware and software, use Windows.
If you want to "feel cool" while paying a premium, then buy Apple.
Respect the Constitution
I upgraded my seldom-used gaming and occasional-windows-tasks rig from Win 7 to Win 10. I've not signed up to any MS accounts. I've uninstalled all the MS stuff that I could. I opted out of everything I could find. The only annoying thing that's happened was a suggestion today on the Start Menu that I install the Facebook App. I disabled suggestions (either suggestions are a new feature, or it re-enabled itself). Some snooping stuff appears to be have been backported from 10 to 7 so I don't know if sticking to 7 will save you that much in that department.
So is there any point to Win 10? Have the virtual desktops built into the OS with a cludgy add-on program is nice. For some reason Cygwin install always failed for me on Win 10. I gave up because it's not worth the hassle right now. However, it seems that a native Bash terminal is about to appear in Windows 10, which is pretty awesome. The UI is oddly ugly. Other than that, I don't really notice any major differences between 7 and 10. But then, I don't use Windows heavily.
soylentnews.org
It works fine for almost everything I do
Definitely turn off all of the "Metro" crap, and uninstall as much of it as possible
Turn off cortana and as much tracking as possible. Usability telemetry is fine with me, as long as it doesn't lead to crappy spam ads
I only had one problem..Solidworks 2013 doesn't run reliably. So, I have a win 8.1 bootable drive for it, (with grc "never10")..bit of a pain
This discussion will eventually become moot, as MS more and more aggressively forces win 10
First off I recommend upgrading to 10. It runs better especially on lower ram systems, and there is definitely improvements in app performance and startup.
That being said, these are the issues I've run into upgrading users to 10
1) Update your BIOS! Especially if its a Laptop: There are issues with the screen going black after updating to 10 that are caused by an outdated BIOS, especially on older Dell Vostro and some ASUS systems. If you forget chances are you can get a screen by plugging in a monitor but update the BIOS to avoid it in the first place.
2) if you have IDT audio installed on your PC, remove the driver NOW from programs and features!: Older Versions of this driver is FUBARed and will cause explorer to crash infinitely while it is migrating your profile, which will screw it up to the point where you will have to rollback to 7. Cheap Dells, HP's and Toshiba's usually have this sound card. 10 Will detect it as a HD audio codec and will work fine without the crashing, or use the latest 8.1 driver if your manufacturer actually has one. Not sure why MS doesn't detect this as incompatible during its check.
3) Windows update on windows 7 will screw you out of time: Windows update is so FUBARed on 7. it alone is a reason to upgrade to 10. I've found the best way to update from 7 is to install windows 10 setup to a flash drive, keep the upgrading system off the network until you see the installing windows circle, and open a administrative command prompt and "net stop wuauserv" about every 5 minutes during install. This will cut load times down significantly cause the install process will start a windows update session every 5 minutes and with win7 taking about 2 hours a checkin the above will get 10 installed in minutes rather than hours
4) Profiles may not migrate on first run and run temporary profile: Seems to happen to a lot of 2010-2011 HP units for some reason. Boot with safe mode and the profile should fix itself although the start menu will be clean of Squares.
5) Wifi card goes AWOL after Shutdown/Sleep: See this one constantly with 2013-2015 Dell laptops with a dell customized broadcom driver. Some people say removing the Dell driver altogether and using the 10 driver works but YMMV also the latest Dell driver does not fix this issue. I typically disable fast startup and Wifi Power saving options to get around this one but it will still happen from time to time.
6) Start menu and/or Windows store/control panel disappears or will not load: running tweaking.com all in one repair with all checks enabled and leave the system on overnight seems to fix this one. also reseting default apps may get this one fixed. if it doesn't fix after doing the above than use your win10 Stick to reinstall Win10 as an upgrade install.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Bad enough I have to use adblock to browse the web, But needing an ad block for using your operating system...
Prepare for chicken little "spyware" comments when describing simple telemetry. Prepare for "concerns" that you can't inspect the telemetry due to the use of *gasp* secured connections.
Oh, and prepare for adware comments because they might dare suggest an app you might install from the store.
In fact, prepare for nothing useful. Only FUD.
1/ I bought and paid for MY computer. I NOT Microsoft get to decide what if any "telemetry" gets sent.
2/ I value my privacy so NO telemetry get sent.
3/ Microsoft can get fucked.
Ha, you think bigger numbers are better.
What most people forget when upgrading:
Are all their favorite programs or Apps "Fully Compatible" with the new Windows?
Do a little research before you commit, and you should be OK.
Also worth the thought and effort:
Make a comprehensive Backup of your system before you start, and have an Escape Plan in place if you want/need to roll back to your previous version.
Finally, if you pull that trigger, be prepared for a learning curve.
There are a lot of articles about the new Windows out there. Look them up! Things to enable, things to disable, things to just plain be aware of, features you may want to access and things you will want to uninstall completely.
Here are a few (hopefully) useful links:
http://lifehacker.com/what-win...
http://lifehacker.com/the-best...
http://lifehacker.com/how-to-c...
And something you might also want to consider: Buy a new HD (or even that SSD you've been wanting, and do a Clean Install of Windows 10. Here's a URL for the How-To:
http://lifehacker.com/how-to-d...
Sorry for all the Plain Text stuff. Anyone that has a bit of tech savvy will still be able to use these easily. After all, this is SlashDot.
And, yes, these are all from Lifehacker. As you can see, that source alone has a lot to reference. The internet itself is a huge resource. I have every confidence that the folks here can access even more if they put their minds to it. Just remember the basics of System Safety, have more than a few grains of salt ready and Play Nice out there, and you should be more than ready to upgrade when you actually feel the increasing pressure from Uncle Bill's minions!
Enjoy!
The best thing you can do to Microsoft is adopt their new OS and then use a decrapify script (easilly found on pastebin via google) and run the script in powershell. The script adds the telemetry and callhome servers to your hosts file as well as strips Onedrive and removes adds from your start bar. I'm a gamer and I will end up needing DX12, and like having the XBone streaming and such, but fuck me if I'm going to let Microsoft collect my data as a revenue stream. This way I get their product that they so desperately wanted me to have for free, and don't have to spend a fortnight removing stuff and tinkering with the OS in order for it to work how I want it.
For examples of (B) in the FOSS community, look at the crash reporting used by Firefox and Ubuntu. Yes, Ubuntu, the entire distribution. Sure, they show you what they're supposedly sending, if you're interested to look, but the data is sent over an encrypted connection so, well, unless you compiled it from source (using a trusted compiler you also wrote yourself) from code you've fully reviewed, you're putting your trust in whoever provided the binaries, compiler, and/or source code.
The Firefox telemetry you can at least turn off. Ubuntu? Don't know. Win 10 apparently only to degrees and the risk MS will turn it back on.
If you are running 7, 8, 8.1 and don't care about Media Center (you know who you are) and don't depend on the parental controls, knock yourself out and install 10 if you want too. I'm no windows fan (actually quite the opposite) but if you are running an older version of windows and won't loose support for some necessary application by moving up, by all means go for it, if for no other reason than to stay with the OS which will be supported the longest. I will warn you that a couple of things change in the UI and a number of things have moved around (to varying degrees) since 7, but it's not that hard to make the change.
However, be warned that they took away a couple of things that I've noticed. Windows Media Center is gone after 8.1, if you use it, there are no other fully compatible replacements which can record and play protected content that I know of (yet). Also, I was upset to find out that they ripped out a lot of the parental controls which used to come standard and which where useful for limiting access times for my kids. There may be other solutions for this now if you really needed it but my kids where getting old enough it didn't matter.
Stay up with the times, let it install....
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The start menu
the store
Edge
Calculator
Account administration
In these cases the only solution is either create a new account or reinstall windows. (Which creates a new account.) The standard advice (sfc /scannow and dism) did not fix it.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
You believe this? You believe that it's similar to DuckDuckGo??
There's also the difference between a well established OS deciding to go off the deep end versus a brand new service built on top of advertising. So you get a choice up front, do you use a smart phone or not. Whereas if you've already made the choice of using Windowsyou're being told "surprise, now that you're hooked we're going to start advertising and monitoring what you do, and will stop asking for permission to send data back because you might say 'no'".
FYI I've turned off all this stuff in Google. No location services or GPS at all, I read every single permission that an app wants and refuse to keep it installed if it wants to know data about me. I even use DuckDuckGo because it's not tracking my search history like google, no more creepy search results popping up.
I don't visit any Facebook websites. For Google I do use it carefully. I keep noscript up at all times, I never run any "analystics" script, I don't keep any long term cookies, etc. Of course that makes the web painful to use at times, but that's ok, there's so little of value there anymore.
Upgrading to Windows 10 from XP or Vista is not free.
That's Microsoft for you. They insist on doing all the applications themselves even if they have no clue how to do it properly. Whenever they see a game they show up late and say "hey guys, I wanna play in your game too!", and then they screw it up. Search; they wanna do that too! Advertisements; they want to do that now. Phone apps; sure they'll put them on a PC, why not? Voice search; they think they can do that. Maps; they'll send you down the wrong road because they think they know how to do that. Games; sure, they've been trying to play games with their customers forever! Nobody works harder at playing catch-up than Microsoft; they've spent most of their existence playing catch-up.
But Windows 8.1 is better than Windows 10, and is supported for at least another 7 years, so it's decent advice. Recommending Windows 10 to friends and families is a good way to lose friends and miss out being invited to family reunions.
Yes, it's the appiest.
It is called "putting lipstick on a pig". When you get down to it all M$ ever does is put new window dressing on the same rotten core, move things around a bit, and resell it. Very little ever actually improves. In fact, just as often things get worse instead, e.g a feature is removed. The only real exception is probably DirectX, and of course drivers which have to be constantly updated b/c there are too few good standards and peripheral makes can't stand using the same part for more the three months b/c it might cost them a penny more.
:T:R:A:N:S:
you can at least turn off
I refer you to the following:
unless you compiled it from source (using a trusted compiler you also wrote yourself) from code you've fully reviewed, you're putting your trust in whoever provided the binaries, compiler, and/or source code
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Had Win 8.1 on this laptop for a good year and a half before I got tricked into the Win10 update. Win 8.1 was solid has hell once I de-metro'd it. Win10 is flakey as hell. Move a window, release the wrong button first, window goes full screen. My taskbar currently shows I'm in airplane mode even though my wifi works fine (it also shows airplane mode when I put it in airplane mode). Sometimes I have to disable the firewall to print wirelessly. The fingerprint reader takes a dump every 2-3 days, requiring a reboot to get it back. Uptime is less than a week due to either an update or something important like explorer crashes. It will update/reboot in the middle of the night, when the laptop is closed.
PS 1: Not I never mentioned the telemetry BS. It's a lot of work keeping that crap turned off.
PS 2: The update/reboot in the middle of the night with the laptop closed is the real deal killer for me. Microsoft. You don't know what the fuck I'm doing. You do not reboot my machine without an explicit "Yeah, you can reboot now" from me. None of this scheduling bullshit. When you want to reboot put an icon in my taskbar to remind me, I'll reboot when I'm not running something that takes 3 days to finish, or am not in the middle of having 4 tabs in a web browser, a spreadsheet open, and an editor open where I'm actually writing something.
PS 3: Yes, I mean I got tricked into the upgrade. I clicked on a "Yes" box, but between the time my brain said "Yes" and my finger clicked the mouse button the dreaded "Pssst, hey bud. Wanna try Win10?", with that nasty window grabbing my mouse focus. Once it started I was afraid to stop it.
Linux and OS X are "grossly unstable" ? Is this a joke? There are certainly lots of problems with Linux, but as soon as you call it unstable we all just snicker at you and stop reading.
Aside from having specific requirements - like using a tool or playing a game that only runs on Windows - I'd recommend moving away from Windows. There is nothing Windows can offer that other systems can't offer better or cheaper or both at the same time. Chromebooks, Macs or a Linux PC are very often the better choice in a given area of usage.
Windows 2000 was the last Windows Version I used personally. I run into Windows every day at work and I honestly see no point. It's proprietary, costs money and exists for the sole purpose of attaching an expiration date to all your digital stuff. ... Perhaps the new Microsoft Hardware, like those neat Surface Laptops might be an additional reason to stick to or "upgrade" your Windows. But then again, with my Lenovo Tablet I get 18 hrs. of battery life and it costs a fraction of those shiny new MS portables.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I am not a shill, nor is Win10 my favorite OS but it has been stable and on my dell studio 17 laptop both the sleep and hibernation functions are stable and useful for the first time in several years. I would not recommend a casual upgrade though. I upgraded more from curiosity than any other reason and I had no critical apps that had to continue to function. There are several needless moves of features from here to there, but also some kind of cool things added in the mix. I'd recommend you look into taking full control of the update process as well which required some research, but nothing beyond anyone who can handle configuring a Linux desktop. The biggest downside is M$ Edge which is just plain awful, but you can expose IE11 which is functional if not good. I still have and regularly use several varieties of OS's which all have their strong points. My philosophy is the best tool for the job at hand regardless of the manufacturer, and oddly enough the only OS I don't find a compelling use for is OSX.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
If you're not ready to commit to Windows 10 yet, I would recommend getting your machine registered within the free period, then revert to the previous version.
There are 2 ways to do this:
1. Upgrade your existing OS, then roll back. Obviously this has some risks in terms of drivers, etc.
2. Clean install Win 10 on a different partition/drive, using the product key from your existing Windows install (not sure if this will work for OEM systems after extracting the product key). Then you can either dual-boot, or simply go back to using the previous OS.
Android doesn't advertise towards me all the time. I've only seen one ad in the last month that I recall. Of course I'm not loading up hundreds of apps either and have disabled a lot of features.
Who wants a unified OS where the same applications on the desktop are on the phone? What masses? It's a stupid idea and I've rarely heard anyone say that they want it (ok, they want to see Word or PDF docs on the phone, but they don't say they want exactly the same application to do it as on the desktop). Reminds me of when a boss of mine was bragging that he had a new HP PDA that ran Office and was showing it around and telling us that we should dump our palm pilots. Then a month later he recanted and called the PDA a waste of money because it was so painful to use Office on it. A desktop application is not at all suitable for a hand held device. And besides The Microsoft "universal" applications are not universal as they won't run on anything that's not Microsoft, and their Windows phone business is essentially dead.
No calculator? At least it's still in Windows 8. It's practically the only decent software calculator out there.
For a tiny minority of gamers. And almost no game is supporting it at the moment, it's not worth creating a new game that only works with W10 if your customer base is not upgrading to W10. Besides, if it's such a great idea, then Microsoft would have to plead, beg, and trick us into upgrading.
I work in it periodically during the day and then I'm back on CentOS/Ubuntu/Mint, and then on crappy days - OSX.
If I couldn't use Linux, I'd use Windows 10 over OSX any day. Sounds weird, but I'm just being honest.
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The updates adding the telemetry are removed by the GWX Control Panel program, so using that program to block the upgrade to 10 also fixes this issue.
Counter argument 1: To paraphrase you:
The GWX control panel is essentially playing a hopeful game of whack-a-mole; as new updates released, with new KB numbers, and new descriptions, and hoping that Microsoft doesn't tie it to something that is actually a critical vulnerability etc. etc.
Spybot really isn't any worse off; so I don't see your argument as being particularly convincing.
Counter Argument 2:
Why is that whole unbeatable C&C scenario even likely? Facebook, Google and so forth are all blocked by people... and nobodies thrown in the towel yet blocking those.
But If it gets to that, then i'll switch to Linux and just run Windows in a box with no internet for old games. Until then spybot etc make more sense.
And hopefully microsoft comes to its senses before it comes to that. Because make no mistake, it IS losing marketshare now -- it has nowhere to go but down; and the people it loses will be tough to convince to come back.
I would not recommend windows 10. I don't trust or approve of the telemetry and the lack of control allowed to the user. I do not trust Microsoft with the assorted settings with documentation informing the user it will revert if changed. I don't trust Microsoft's judgement after they implemented and made default the feature to sent wireless password to all contacts. I do not trust Windows 10 and I will not allow it on any network for which I am responsible.
There are a few reasons. Its not very polished, one screen is classic windows small font, the next screen sometimes even in the same app is the large baby font touch screen interface. It's extremely inconsistent, switching between visual contexts that are glaringly different.
Microsoft have broken the right click context rule. Right click your current wireless connection and you get nothing. You have to left click it. Yet other UI elements are right clickable.
A lot of shit breaks, especially printers. Holy crap adding printers to Windows 10 is a nightmare. Windows 10 tries to be intelligent and ignores your suggestions for drivers and names. Set up a new printer, and you give it a custom name, it comes as something different. This is a bit issue with WSD devices.
The printing subsystem is broken as hell starting in 8 and still a problem. An example is one company i do work for has "department IDs" for tracking printing.
Print from an office program you are fine. Print from edge or any other native windows 10 app, and windows totally ignores the department ID, and gives you no way to add it. It simply doesn't print at all. No error. Just wont print.
Removal of safe mode?? you cant press F8 to change boot options like get into safe mode? What the fuck of all things would they remove that?
Lack of choices. At lot of screens just have "ok" on them. You cant cancel, you cant close, you will DO what microsoft says you will DO, or you stop work. Its that simple. Windows is.. was a multitasking operating system, yet your entire workflow comes to a halt because of something like a windows update, "microsoft is adding features" or a variety of other un-admissible bullshit that just stops you using your computer.
Lets break things. Lets totally break the guest account, so you can no longer share files or your printers. What are you going to do, go to a different OS? hah. its microsoft or broke for 90 percent of the world.
And that comes to the crux of the situation. Its no longer your computer. You have to fight to stop ads, suggestions, get your privacy back, you have no choice on which updates and when to install them, or to cancel them because you are running something that absolutely cant be rebooted at 3am, much less all those open files you had with critical information that are now gone because microsoft released a patch that decided to break outlook. (this happened 2 days ago)
Its not your PC anymore. You have no idea what information microsoft is gleaning from you, what they are using it for, what income, what privacy or rights they have to your information because you clicked yes on everything just so you can get back to fucking work so you can pay rent and buy food.
No. Lets install windows 10 with a popup box that treats being closed as ACCEPTANCE after teaching users for over 20 years that clicking close will close the program.
Lets take the goodwill, the muscle memory, the training, the ability to do your job and throw it out the window for a clunky hacked up GUI that any designer would scoff at, while laughing that the irony that microsoft breaks their own GUI design rules at every single turn, then waiting to continue working because the OS decided to reboot while you were working.
I would rather use Windows Vista then 10. Hell windows 8 itself was semi decent with classic shell.
Windows 10 is an abomination of glaring design, privacy and usability issues.
I would say that rather than Win10, this is a complaint with Edge. I personally am pretty happy with Win10 (aside from it blocking installers for older software that I know to work), but Edge is horrible.
The thing is, this isn't new to 10. Explorer was just as flawed (in other ways), and also should be avoided on a Win7 computer. As a rule of thumb, use Firefox on all PCs.
Upgrading from Windows 7/8/XP/Vista to 10 is a no brainer: NO FUCKING WAY!!!
Removal of certain features, cloud integration, idiot menus/options, cortana, live tiles, forced updates and the list can go on.
You read all that on the big scary internet?
I turned off live tiles, don't have cortana active, have no cloud integration cos I didn't want it, haven't noticed any missing features, ok, so you got the idiot menu bit partly right, but the start menu is still fully usable.
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
If you need your gaming or DVR recording to never be interrupted by updates, prepare to do hairy registry hacks. Even then I get momentary notifications during full screen games that new updates are available.
If you need the level of privacy where even (generally responsible and well audited) Microsoft employees or (somewhat restrained, depending on your religion and country of origin) US government can not discover what you are doing without spending major money, you should be really using Linux on hardware with minimum number of binary driver blobs or enterprise remote administration features.
If you do basic word processing, legal web browsing and e-mail to family, Windows 10 is most likely an improvement from Windows 7/8 in terms of usability and security from non-government hackers. Game performance is also improved and the difference is likely to get bigger as time goes by.
From what I understand, you can install Windows 10 and immediately downgrade to permanently make a given computer eligible to install Windows 10 in future.
To satisfy your fiscally conservative side, why not backup your current Win7/8 system, do the free upgrade so you get your free Win10 license, and then restore back to Win7/8? That way, if you decide you really want Win10 in the future, you'll at least have acquired the license while it was free.
I've had experiences with Windows 10, most of them negative. Some of them are:
* Settings for the same items in two different locations
* Search bar, which I never use, taking up most of the task bar until you figure out how to turn it off
* Links to other Microsoft products (XBox, Get Office) which are in effect ads loaded as icons into the programs menu
* Said links are tricky to remove and required the use of a power shell command line
* Insistence on linking to my OneDrive account
* "My Computer" hard to find and to create a link on the desktop for
* No Media Centre at all
* It's possible to put Windows 10 into tablet mode when on a PC, which makes it close to unusable.
* Start menu looks like a bastard child of the Windows 7 menu and the Windows 8 panels
* Features I'll never use such as news and inaccurate weather in that panel thing - all of which are links to Microsoft or it's partners
* As has been mentioned way too much reporting back to Microsoft about how you using your PC
* Things that I do every day with ease suddenly becoming complex and hidden
Also aesthetically I find the default colour schemes to be almost unreadable.
But what infuriates me most of all is the way it's been rolled out. I have four PCs at home, and I'm the only guy in my large extended family who understands computers. I can't count the number of times I've had people asking me to remove the annoying upgrade pop-up. And the update is so persistent that despite hiding it multiple times, MS has simply overridden that and tried to reinstall again. I've come to know the KB number off by heart.
And the way it downloads in the background without your permission has used up the preciously tiny amount of data some people have. I was on holiday using 3G data on my phone to get my laptop online, only to find a large chunk of my data had gone, used up by that background download.
Upgrading an OS is a big deal. I'm a software developer with some hundreds of programs installed on my work PC. We have to develop in a controlled software environment otherwise things may simply not work.
I'm sticking to Windows 7 till I am compelled to upgrade.
I have been fending off the update
I find myself wondering if Windows 10 is actually that bad.
I'm wondering if it's time to take the leap
You have just proven to Microsoft that their strategy is working. Just keep wearing people down with update notifications.
There are other operating systems, by the way.
An 6Mhz Z80,bank switched memory and a HUGE media for that time? not bad, not bad at all.
A person does not have to be a shill to simply have a rational look at an OS and see that a whole lot of the bullshit being spread around the internet about it is just nonsense. Also, spouting away about shills every time you see somebody say "hey windows 10 is ok", makes you look a little silly.
My desk at home is crowded with my windows 10 PC, a Linux box and a FreeBSD system. I expect that quite a few ./ people (the older and experienced portion maybe) have more than one operating system in use in their daily lives, and are not scared of experimenting and trying things out. These people are quite capable of comparing Gnome 3 with Windows 10 and saying what they think. Stop wanking away about "shills" every time you see a statement you don't like on here.
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
Correct. The telemetry issue can be partly handled (until an update changes it).
/v AllowTelemetry /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f
/v BingSearchEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f
:: Set Telemetry to Zero
reg add HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection\
:: Disable Telemetry Services
powershell -noprofile -command "Get-Service DiagTrack | Set-Service -StartupType Disabled"
powershell -noprofile -command "Get-Service dmwappushservice | Set-Service -StartupType Disabled"
:: Disable Web Search In Menu Search
reg add HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Search\
:: Add Telemetry Sites to HOSTS file (too long for slashdot)
The updates can be disabled by pointing the system to a non-existent WSUS server (GPO in Pro version) which works for a system on an assembly line controlling a motor.
Running your own WSUS alleviates headaches if you want updates but not at the whim of a corporate overlord.
The average user is fully exposed to updates that can brick. I see where this originated. Millions of PCs running amok because everyone turned updates off. Massive botnets blamed squarely at Redmond. What are they to do? A corporate meeting took place and someone said "Fuck our SMB demographic. Think of grandma getting her PC hacked because she didn't have the update. If the techs want real tech, let them pay for Enterprise".
I like Windows 10. A PDF creator that does one job well. Enhanced snipping tool. Fantastic PowerShell. More customizable menus. Run's all the old crap and the new crap. Handles as many monitors as you can plug in. But forced updates are a deal breaker. I run my own WSUS and I can always select the "check for updates from Microsoft" radio button, but who knows all this stuff? And for the people who do know it, why do I have to jump over fire to get it done? You would think buying the Pro version would be enough. Do this crap to the home version and give us some fucking credit.
> 4. virtual desktops
--So far, this is the only "killer feature" that I have seen so far with Win10 (I upgraded my Win7 laptop in-place but have not used it in months since I found out about Win10 == spyware PLUS braindead break-your-apps anti-user garbage PLUS reboot-whenever-it-senses-$CRITICAL-THING--that-you're-right-in-the-middle-of)
( Aside - you like ST:TOS, you can't be all bad ;-) )
> 4. Most IT folks here after 40 HATE CHANGE. Read anything about systemD, WIndows 7 (pre 2014), or anything else? ;-) One of the reasons we "hate change" is more often than not, change BREAKS THINGS that we have been depending on for YEARS in some cases...
--LOL, u nailed it man
( This is a bug in Ubuntu 14.04 that I just started dealing with - note the lack of support and concern from Canonical over what is a very serious issue for sysadmins: )
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubu...
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Can't Kodi cover those needs?
--
The world is divided in two categories:
those with a loaded gun and those who dig. You dig.
My laptop updated to Win10. This is a Dell Latitude e6530 which is allegedly well supported with 10.
It was difficult to get my speakers making sound again, but after a lot of work they do now.
I have not yet got my webcam/microphone to work again. Were fine in Win7.
My Canon MP530 printer/scanner/fax combo is not supported in Win10. Canon says NO drivers for Win10, buy a new printer instead. I myself would think that if users are being pushed so hard to update to 10, that it would be mandatory for peripheral vendors to support any device from Win7 and Win8 also in Win10, but this does not appear to be the case. So Microsoft has effectively stolen my printer/scanner from me, as I can no longer make use of it.
I am taking an online university course this summer, the last course for my MS degree. But my webcam, speakers, printer and scanner all went AWOL, and I've only been able to get one of those important items back. And my kid can't video chat with distant grandparents.
Consider me disappointed with 10...
For some time I have contemplated converting to Mac and this episode about converting to windows 10 finally pushed me over the edge. I am posting this from a MacBook Pro, which I totally love. I had a laptop that needs a few older drivers for whatever reason and I could not get Windows 10 to stop updating to the latest every time I fixed something. Then during a security update the update did not complete and froze my drive in an un-usable condition - I couldn't boot, couldn't complete the update, couldn't use the drive. I ended up getting a new drive, installing a new windows 10 instance and mounting the old drive in a drive box just to recover my files. That was going on during a critical time when I had some work deadlines in connection with a presentation to a national meeting of a surgical association and I just could not believe I had to deal with all this at such a critical time. Calling Microsoft and working with one of their techs did me no good. The other thing that drove me nuts was that from my perspective Windows 10 really became a platform for pushing more stuff at me to buy, with adware built into the operating system and constant reminders to upgrade or update office, etc., it was now really an OS for MS, not for getting stuff done for me. It was too much.
Every time I read a comment like this on Slashdot I take a little step closer to never coming back. Anyone that doesn't blindly and irrationally hate Microsoft must be a shill, because hey, "if someone thinks differently from me, they must be paid to do so or stupid". Yes. Because only your opinion is valid. All other opinions must be wrong, because, after all, they're not your opinion. And that's all that matters.
Fortunately, I occasionally remember despite the large number of comments like this, here, individuals don't really represent the group.
Out of 10. Come on. It's like complaining about a hammer. Days of complaining about OSes is over. Use 'em. Done.
You know, there are plenty of STEM fields where Windows or OS X are mandatory. Like, developing commercial software on either of those platforms, where you have to be able to understand and test on those platforms, or front-end web development (where you may have to take a PSD, Fireworks layered PNG, or InDesign file from a designer and recreate the depicted design, pixel-perfect, in HTML; and no, free tools that exist today can not open these files and represent them (including layers so you can clip out graphical elements as needed) anywhere near pixel-perfect.
That said, you can just as well run Linux on your development machine and keep Windows and/or OS X around for testing if needed.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
And that's all well and great if you are one of those people. If you're not, well, you're trusting whoever compiled the binary, whoever wrote the compiler they used, whoever wrote the compiler that compiled the compiler they used, and, if you didn't review the source (or can't understand the source), you're trusting that, as well.
My point is, effectively, unless you are one of the few who actually write and manually build their own compiler, review every piece of source, and compile everything themselves with that compiler, those benefits disappear and you default to trusting the vendor just like with OS X or Windows.
Now, don't take that the wrong way (as I fear you have); I'm not saying FOSS should be avoided, or that it offers no value. I'm merely pointing out that, unless you're fully auditing every bit of code and literally building everything (including the toolchain) yourself, FOSS relies just as much on trust as closed-source. I know and understand your perspective; it wasn't long ago that I was equally naive. Now? An OS is a tool and every worthy craftsman uses the tool that best suits the work they are doing. I rely heavily on FOSS for my servers and for a large portion of my development work, so I am in no way attacking that community, merely pointing out an oft-overlooked truth about it. For the vast majority of users, the only difference between FOSS and closed-source is the price tag; both require trust in the developers, vendors, and toolchain providers.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Linux server stable, Linux Desktop not so. Yes you can work around it by switching DE/VM everytime the new major version of your favorite one breaks.
But it sucks.
What would you call some one who says OS X lacks features compared to Windows? Or that either Linux or OS X are unstable? Maybe just insane then.
If somebody thinks OS X lacks features, then obviously that person looks for specific features in an OS which they did not find. Maybe they look for different things than you do.
As for unstable, that is terribly subjective; was the person using Linux in a development mode? Did they try to configure and compile everything or install a clean ready-to-run distro? I have had my share of unstable and crashing Linux boxes over the years, it's not unheard of. Nowdays I stick with a distro release classed as "stable" for my main desktop, but maybe run up a fresh testing release in a VM when I have the need to play with it. There are so many options that yes, you can have a bad experience with Linux. Your choice if you wave your hands in the air and proclaim the entire Linux range to be broken, or shrug your shoulders and try a different distro to see if you have an easier time with it.
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
Linux desktop setups shit themselves after a year or two of light use and need a reinstall.
Anecdotal, of course, but I kept the same install of Linux (with an in-place version upgrade) for at least 4 years of heavy daily use for the purposes of my main work. In my experience, hardware upgrades generally happen before you actually need to reinstall the OS. And hey - if you're not upgrading the disk, you can usually just plunk it in a new machine and it just works - unlike Windows which just flat out won't work (and even if it worked, say you put it in identical hardware, it will demand to be re-activated shortly after).
I did try and upgrade Ubuntu to the latest version recently and it shit the bed and ruined my OS partition. But you know what? I keep a separate home partition, a swift reinstall later, and everything worked again, and any program I installed kept all the settings I had for it before. If I was so inclined, I could reinstall the vast majority of the software I use with one command - but I tend to just reinstall it the first time I need to use it again, to cull the number of things I have installed a little.
I was back up and running in a working condition with the latest updates within 20 minutes.
OS reinstall on Windows? Enjoy wasting 2 days, minimum, reinstalling, downloading drivers, rebooting, installing software, rebooting, locating license keys, rebooting, swearing because you can't find the license keys or the number of online activations you had has expired, rebooting and then doing Windows Update, waiting several hours for the updates to apply, with a few reboots thrown in for good measure. And then, reconfiguring everything because all the settings are kept in the registry and you can't restore a registry, reducing your efficiency for another few days as you finally shake out all the kinks.
If you have no other choice, then upgrade to windows 10 and install the linux runtime thing.
Seriously, why are people asking these questions? Upgrade to the latest thing, it's better and more future proof.
Do you expect the next windows release to be better and remove the things you don't like about win10? Who are you kidding?
If win10 is so horrible you can't/won't use it, then it's time to move to another OS (which you probably should have done a long time ago).
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Every time I hear about this I think of how pissed off people got at U2. Whatever reason they're doing this for must outweigh the detriment caused to their name, because by now it's very clear what a PR nightmare forcing a free surprise on someone is.
Linux is way more stable than windows on my laptop, for any purpose.
Yeah, my iPad is way more stable than windows too.
But I still use Windows on my Laptop, because iOS, just like Linux, is totally useless for doing any real work.
https://pics.onsizzle.com/yes-...
it's the being forced to run updates before you can get on with whatever you wanted to do aspect of win10 that I don't like. I only fire my home laptop up once a week, which means there's always a few minutes worth of HDD and CPU activity before it calms down and lets me do what I want to do.
sag
So not only do I usually recommend upgrading to individuals, we've been upgrading our entire corporation.
Yes, just install Classic start with ninite and enjoy ! I prefer fresh install than upgrade. I expected a lot of problems after upgrade from 7 or 8.1...
FOSS relies just as much on trust as closed-source
You give no evidence of "just as much".
The more varied code review and more accessible bug trackers clearly point to less trust and more verification.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Upgraded all the Windows machines I have to Win 10. Every app I use worked without issue, no problems with games, and Cygwin still works fine.
It is undeniably harder to get to 'the guts' than it was with Win 7 (I skipped 8), but I've found that Windows 7 and 10 have stabilised to the point where I rarely need to get to the guts any more. Some parts of Win 10 still feel split-personality, there are two kinds of dialogs for a lot of stuff, the new Win 10 look (or the Win 8/8.1 look) and the old Win 7 look, but for the most part it's tolerable.
Hardware support, multiple monitors, etc. much more stable under 10 than it was under 7.
Performance under 10 is better than it was under 7.
I primarily use the machines for Lightroom / PS / Video editing, web based stuff and office document stuff.
If you hate Windows, you'll hate Windows 10 as much as you hated Windows 7 / 8 / 8.1. However, if you're comfortable with Windows, or you use a range of different OSes and accept there's no perfect solution, then Windows 10 is better than the previous versions of Windows, IMO.
If you're comparing Win7 to Win10, there ARE some benefits to go along with the added adware and reduced end-user control, often features added for Win 8. A couple examples off the top of my head: -System refresh tools are MUCH better. Windows still craps out from time to time, but refreshing the OS, either in place or as a clean install, is much easier. -POWERCFG give you more useful info to help diagnose why your laptop runs hot or kills your battery But really, if you're happy with Win7 the only critical reason to upgrade is if you expect your computer to last beyond the end-of-life date for the OS in 2020. OTOH, buying a new computer with Win7 just to avoid Win10 is dumb.
I've been using it for a while. Overall a positive experience but with mixed feelings. Like anything - there are somethings to like and dislike. I have an "old" laptop (quad-core i7, 8 GB, ~5 years old). Visual Studio runs really nice (I'm a software developer).
Interestingly - under Windows 7 my machine would randomly reboot - just go black and reboot. For years I thought it was a hardware gone bad (it was fine when I bought it). One day the eSATA port started to report errors after long backups. Wifi throughput was unreliable - I figured the USB had gone bad. I had updated every driver I could find - searched error logs etc. Swapped RAM chips around. Thankfully & strangely - this problem has *not* occurred under Windows 10 (although I haven't tried eSATA yet).
Live Tiles - don't work on a laptop. I find them useless. Great idea for a mobile device - but sucker of pixel space on the big screen. They did solve the problem regarding non-touch UI split-brain that Win8 had. As a mouse/keyboard person Win10 works very similarly to Win7.
The "search" bar - having BING results (or Google) is less than useful. Since Win10 lacks a useful All-Programs menu, search is the only way to find programs (or scroll through 1000 live tiles). I want to launch Calculator... not BUY a calculator.
Overall I have a positive experience --- BUT in the back of my mind I am concerned that this is now an advertising platform. I worry what the future could be - and how to I buy my way out of it? So far it hasn't been a problem - so maybe I'm paranoid.
So while I like it - I have concerns. My next computer might actually be a Mac to go along with my growing iDevice farm. And with "Code" available on MacOS along with Xarmin/MS - my desktop OS may not be important.
Nope. I do not recommend it. It may be 'free', but that is not good enough to make it worth my while. I find that the whole system is kludgey, it is harder to navigate/find things and the default method injects ads into every search (of my own hard drive!) that I ask it to make. I haven't taken the time to find all the settings to turn that crapware off, if such exist, because I need to actually use the thing, not fuckabout with it.
My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
I use Windows 10 at work and on my mom's PC. Personally though I have an Android phone and a old HP running LM17.2 at home as my primary devices. At work there is alot of tweaking we do with Enterprise Windows 10 which has made it overall a great tool that is already being deployed even if it hasn't gotten the royal seal of approval. Most users will have Windows 10 Home which is what my mom has, I actually cloned Windows 7 to a new hard drive and stuck it in a newer Dell(I'm running the old HP) and with very little effort got it running. I'm a little foggy since this was around October or so. A couple weeks after the transfer I ran the Windows 10 upgrade over night. There were no hiccups, I think I was asked for a Microsoft login but there was a camouflaged skip icon in the corner. After that all the files showed up were they were suppose to be, the account was configured properly. The main difference was missing launchers in the task bar and what at the time was an oversized but relatively ad free menu. Everything went smooth except Cisco Anyconnect which broke like a couple weeks later. It took a combined 3-4 hours of work over a week to work it out but ultimately it was just cleaning the system out with CCleaner, a reinstall of the newest client, and the special settings of her IT group. I had some complaints the first couple days about how it looked but after that she found it easy and comfortable to use, which is really what counts. I installed one of my copies of Office365 from work and she has loved how smooth office is. All of her work is in Chrome, Outlook, Office, and RDP through her VPN and all of those work great so from a regular user standpoint it's a success. In my experience with Windows 10 Home I'm overall impressed. My complaints are the features missing in Home Edition(can't really fix that for free) and junk ads for apps in the start Menu. In the Enterprise version I use at work I honestly have no complaints other then missing features for the Virtual Desktop. I'm not going to go out and buy a new PC with Windows 10 but I still have to say it's intuitive and easy to use if you have to have Windows. Features I love are: The overall theme which is in my opinion smooth and colorful, Virtual Desktops(Finally!), and the way they integrated the look of Windows 8 with the intuitiveness of Windows 7 and even made things easier to use. Yes I still don't care for PowerShell and CMD but for me it's the End-user Experience I'm concerned about. Windows 10 still has alot of features and power under the hood for Admins and I like that since I use it to do tech support but the only thing it did was make the tools flashier. For most scenarios and most End-users I think the upgrade is worth it overall and is an easy transition for the non-tech savvy
On 100+ separate machines?
It was cool to hate on vista and windows 8 because they were shit. When Windows 8 came out I planned to make a full move to Linux. I was skeptical about Windows 10, but there are many small features that just work a little better in Windows 10 like the task manager. When my new job gave me a machine with Windows 8 installed the first thing I did was upgrading to 10. I still have a Sony Vaio at home that has to stay on Windows 7 because the internet tells me stuff will break, I notice that I miss Windows 10. Which is funny because I always thought that Windows was pretty shit but I couldn't leave because of the games.
The answer for most people MUST be yes. You cannot tell your friends and family to stick with XP or 7 or 8, OSes that Microsoft wants to stop supporting as soon as possible. You cannot tell them to forego a free upgrade when, in all likelihood, they will simply have to pay for it later. You cannot seriously suggest any Linux distro as a real alternative. And you cannot continue spreading FUD regarding data collection and "spyware" when, in reality, Windows 10 does nothing more than that Google, Facebook, really any popular software/service does these days. It's pretty reckless to suggest otherwise.
hi
I had to make an MS account just to log into HealthVault, and get my LabCorp test results. They claim they also take OpenID, but they only accept OpenID accounts created by MS, and they're not accepting new accounts...
"Everyone with a different opinion is a shill: a child's guide to internet discussions"
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
... if you build everything yourself, starting with the toolchain. Of course, the first part of that is the firmware that starts the system, followed by the bootloader called by the firmware.
I gave an explanation of what should be a self-evident fact. Something that is self-evident it, in fact, evidence of itself and, therefore, requires no additional evidence. That being said, Ken Thompson's Reflections on Trusting Trust explains it a bit better than I could. Mind you, it's been well over a decade and a half since I've read it, but the concepts he discusses there still ring true, and wi continue to dk so for as long as we continue to use computers.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Still no evidence of "just as much" trust. You've already given evidence of both being non-zero trust scenarios, but never any evidence of both being equal levels of trust.
Do you think all non-zero numbers are equal to one another?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
The technical reasons for me are: 1) less stable than Win 7 (Pro), as many anomalous things happen, which are likely a result of #2; 2) Lots of things are done by default w/ Win10 - things that are generally NOT recommended, including settings best left to ME, not MS's heavy-handed way of stealing not only mkt share yet also #3; 3) privacy is compromised in a LOT of places: passwords, computing habits, where you browse and where you go. Win10 is an offensive attempt by MS to force users to upgrade so they can then boast how popular it then becomes - twisting, of course, actual statistics in their favor. HOWEVER, when deeply correctly configured, Win10 CAN be a stable upgrade. One just needs to pay VERY CLOSE attention to updates. And Do NOT do any version lower than Pro. Win 10 Home is totally closed to easy proper configuration. Even better, take the time to get a decent Linux OS installed. There may be fewer apps for it right now, yet Linux is on the rise! LibreOffice can easily replace MSOffice. And, it is much cheaper!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
As another poster said, the OS will slow down over time. As far as speed goes the biggest difference between 7 and 10 is how they use hybernation to restore a powered down computer. The computer loads the hybernation file and powers on much more quickly in Windows 10.
The problem is that in my experience hybernation doesn't work any better in 10 than it has since Windows Vista. The hybernation file sometimes gets corrupted. When it's powered up you get a message that "Star menu and Cortana aren't working. We'll try to fix it the next time you sign in". It then forces a reboot which tries to load the corrupted same hybernation file. Rinse and repeat.
The easiest way out of the loop is to deliberately cause an "unscheduled shutdown". The next boot will start without using the hybernation file. The only permanent solution I've found is to disable hybernation. This problem was reported at least as far back as June of 2015. To my knowledge Microsoft has not yet found a fix.
I do not block ads. I do block third party scripts.
1. Do you have a camera and microphone on your monitor or attached via USB?
A. If Yes, don't upgrade, no matter what MSFT says, they use those. Even when they say they don't.
2. Do you care about privacy?
A. If Yes, don't upgrade. Even when you alter all settings, it's like bailing out a leaky boat made of bubble wrap. It will still float, but water gets in.
3. Do you play games and only use it for that, and like Big Brother spying on your every move?
A. If yes, upgrade. But don't run anything "secure" on that machine. Because it's not.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Regular people: No
Business: Hell NO
Gamers: Yes
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
The answer is "NO"!
Slow news day, is it?
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
I have found the OS runs faster, the interface is clean and functional, less error prone than previous OS's. The privacy issues are alarming, but research and a quick run through the settings resolves most of those issues. I am running 10 on my gaming/general use system, my creative system still uses windows 7 (mostly because I can't be arsed to research where incompatibilities might still lie with my specialized hardware). I wouldn't be too worried about upgrading unless you are running specialized hardware or need compatibility for specific software.
I have 3 laptops with Windows 10 on them: 1 works fine, 1 works ... slowly, 1 has just died.
All three are dual-boot with either Xubuntu or Lubuntu.
The 1 working laptop is a HP Compaq CQ45 with 6GB RAM and a fast Quad core Celeron chip. I use it to demo Windows 10 which I "voluntarily teach" at the City Library. Whether I boot it to Windows 10, or Lubuntu 14.04.4 LTS it works well.
The 1 that works slowly is a ASUS Ultrabook with a slow Celeron chip (1.1 or 1.2 ghz) and 2GB RAM. It's as slow as it sounds. When I boot it to Xubuntu 14.04.4 LTS however, it works much better.
The 1 that has just died on it's Windows 10 install is a ASUS Ultrabook FS502C with a Pentium Dual Core 2117U and 4GB RAM. Xubuntu 14.04.4 LTS is running fine on this one too: that's how I identified the chip, with "System Profiler and Benchmark". I have to confess the Windows 10 install is probably a hodge-podge mess, as I had used it for the preview editions, and it took booting with a Win10 1511 DVD to restore it last time it died.
As a volunteer at the City Library, I've encountered many people having problems because their laptop upgraded without them having particularly intended to. :-)
Even experienced people have been caught out, and I've taken great delight in sharing GWX Control Panel with those who are horrified by the possibility it will happen "behind their back". I've also made careful note of the mention of Never10 in discussions here
My advice to people is, if you like Windows 7 or 8.1, don't upgrade to 10. The earlier versions will be supported for what will probably by the life of the average laptop (another 4 years or so), and if they then buy a new one, they get Windows 10 by default ... hopefully a mature product by then. I have one laptop that has Windows 7 and the afore-mentioned Xubuntu 14.04.4 LTS ... and I'm guarding Windows 7 like my life depends on it. I have a desktop PC with Windows 8.1: ditto.
Microsoft might be pushing Windows 10 because it will make life easier for them, but the way they're doing it is not making life easier for customers.
I acknowledge that ongoing development and security issues change things, which is why I accept the eventual upgrading of my Linux installations from one LTS version to the next, but if I've paid good money for an operating system, I expect to keep it as long as I want to!
Don't blame me, it's usually 2 in the morning when I post
I've had more crashes on my OS X machine at work than I have with my Win 8 machine at home. I doubt that's representative of the general experience, but - for me - Windows has been more stable. I also really like the Win-# to switch to specific applications, and the snap to half size feature that Windows has. Small things, sure, and OS X has its own advantages, but there are some features Windows has that OS X doesn't.
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
I distinctly did not advise anyone to upgrade, and I also pointed out that I upgraded as a curiousity. Why do you have your panties in such a twist ? Are you telling me you did not do any research for the current OS that your 'freaking out' customers are currently running. Is the thought of new work too much for you, perhaps your nick should be Hidemyheadinthesand. Perhaps if you as a 'supposed' support tech had done some research on the matter your customers would not have gotten boned. It is better to know the 'enemy' you are confronting vs standing around screaming like a little girl. As for fsck'n you, I'd not touch you with Trumps' penis let alone give you the pleasure of my company.
If your customers want real support give them my email. I'll support them on the OS of their choice and from the evil snarks and boojums that you admittedly can't deal with. As for denying the GWX 'holocaust' only a weenie would consider what is happening as a holocaust, perhaps your little sister could take over your job for you.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Ah, I see what you're getting hung up on! You missed where I qualified "just as much trust" with "unless you're fully auditing every bit of code".
Sure, if you're auditing all of the code yourself, you don't have to trust that the code is clean, you know if it is or isn't; if you aren't, though, you do have to trust. Likewise, unless you compile the binary yourself (and from code you've audited yourself), you must trust that whoever provided the binary compiled the same code you reviewed, without modification.
Whether or not you compile the binary yourself, you must trust that the compiler used did not insert its own backdoor or malicious code. Even writing your own compiler is not good enough, as the compiler you compile it with may recognize that it's compiling a compiler and backdoor that; you must write the compiler in binary format and you must do so from an environment you build completely. If you don't do this, you must trust that the firmware didn't inject malicious code into the bootloader, that the bootloader didn't inject malicious code into the kernel, that the kernel didn't inject malicious code into your hex editor, that your hex editor didn't inject malicious code into the compiler you used it to write (again, in binary format). But, I digress...
Even ignoring all of the other ways malicious code might sneak into the code you compile yourself, because those really only matter if you're actually compiling everything yourself, you still must trust whoever compiled the binaries. And no, you can not review the code those binaries were compiled from; that is something that is only possible if you compile them yourself.
I feel like I'm repeating myself, here. Probably because I am simply restating the same point in as many different ways as possible. Seriously, though, save us both a lot of argument and actually read Thompson's paper. Like I said, he explains it all better than I ever could.
And, again, something that is self-evident needs no further evidence. You simply don't want to see it for what it is because it destroys the underpinnings of your philosophy. The philosophy, however, is solid; you simply believe in it for the wrong reasons. FOSS is not about security or not needing trust, FOSS is about a community supporting itself. Believe in it for the right reasons and it becomes much easier to accept that you must trust that community.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Have you ever actually tried taking a Windows 10 drive and connecting it to a new machine. Yes, you will be on the hook for activation, but it will work. I took an SSD out of core 2 duo laptop and connected it to a dual socket server board and it detected drivers and booted up without issue.
Well there's the thing! Even with FOSS, most people do not compile their own binaries, and there's the trust issue again. And if your compiler is backdoored the same way as the package maintainer's compiler (which is perfectly possible if you both got your compilers from the same place), both will generate the same altered output. That is to say, the package maintainer may not even be the malicious party.
Check out Ken Thompson's Reflections on Trusting Trust. Yes, it's old, probably older than you if you haven't read it already, but it's still relevant, and will remain so for as long as we use computers.
Sure, you can review the source and fix security flaws that you find there; but, how can you know your compiler isn't replacing them or adding others? Read the paper.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Sounds like another Microsoft product to avoid. If they can't accept basic username and password distinct from other accounts then they're never going to get lots of people to use it, except younger generation who don't see any problems with security of privacy, probably using Facebook login to log in everywhere they go. When it comes to Windows, third party applications are the way to go.
I upgraded pretty much as soon as it was available (I should probably at some point do a full format and reinstall to get rid of all the windows 8/8.1 baggage), and can really say that there's nothing too special about it. I don't see ads. It has a start menu, but I very rarely use it. The Windows app style media player is pretty crappy, so I still use Media Player Classic. I don't use cortana, and haven't bothered to turn off any of the privacy features. I HAVE had to uninstall a few errant windows store apps, but it's as easy as right clicking the start menu -> remove. All in all, I'm totally fine with it.
Linux is stable.
Linux desktop setups shit themselves after a year or two of light use and need a reinstall.
Thankfully per users can script all their settings to make reinstalls painless.
Really?
I have an OS X Mac that I use as an iTunes Server/Security PC. It has been running the same install of OS X 24/7/365 for SEVERAL years. In fact, the OS Install (and the drive it was on) was actually plucked from an older Mac when it suffered some sort of Power Supply wonkiness after a bad thunderstorm and placed into a new, slightly different model (actually completely different, from a hardware POV). Booted right up, didn't complain about a single thing (except that the time & date wasn't set), and has been working ever since. No degrading performance, no build-up of cruft. It just works, month after month, year after year.
Same with a friend of mine's Mac mini he uses as an HTPC. Until I (finally) Upgraded it last weekend, It had been running the same install of OS X since it was purchased in 2010. It too, runs 24/7/365.
So I am amazed that Linux isn't stable over time. I thought it was the darling of the server crowd, specifically BECAUSE of long-term stability.
OK, so this is a bit OT. I bought a laptop (ASUS 15" Zenbook UX51VZ) a couple of years ago that came with Win 8. I fully intended to reformat it and install Win 7 but I got a bit lazy and thought I'd give Win 8 a try for a couple of weeks. No surprise, the tiled "Metro" side of Win 8 was as bad, or worse, than I expected it to be, so I tried a couple of the utilities that restore the Win 7 style start menu, finally settling Start 8 from Stardock which was well worth $5. Once I had that installed and configured, it thoroughly changed my experience of Windows 8. I had fully functioning Start menu and the desktop worked just like Win 7. The result: I NEVER have to even look at the Metro UI - it effectively doesn't exist.
The best part is that Win 8 is considerably faster that 7, boots from a cold start in about 6 sec. and it's light years more stable than 7. I work it pretty hard: everything from coding and dev environments to 32 track music production and live DJing and it hasn't hiccuped once .How much of this experience could be replicated in Win 10? Hard to say. the telemetry reporting to MS and their desperate push for the Windows Store are major concerns. If all of that and the other issues with win 10 can be dealt with (with or without help from MS), it could be worth a look but I'm with those that don't find any compelling reason to to upgrade and for now I'm very content with Win 8.1
Apple treats people like shit.
Apples is the least open and least compatible, even failing to work with earlier versions of products they made.
Ignoring your ignorant grammar, what'cha talkin' 'bout, Jackson?
Just throwing a couple of Apple Hater comments out there with ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANTIATION and that is modded +4 INSIGHTFUL!?!?
What the HELL, mods???
1. I'm not at ALL sure why the company that has been in the top 1 or 2 for Customer Satisfaction for YEARS AND YEARS can POSSIBLY be categorized as "treats people like shit". Seriously.
2. What do you mean "Apple is the LEAST OPEN and LEAST COMPATIBLE, even failing to work with EARLIER VERSIONS of PRODUCTS they made." WTF does that word-salad even MEAN??? "Least Open" (REALLY? Less "Open" than Windows??? Really???). "Least Compatible" (With WHAT???). "Failing to work" (WHAT "Fails to Work"? Software, Hardware, what???) with Earlier Versions of Products (WHAT Earlier Versions? WHAT Products? Are you talking about Intel Apps not working on PowerPC Macs? Because that's ALL I can figure that you mean).
Moron Hater. MOD PARENT DOWN!!!
I don't understand why otherwise seemingly intelligent people continue to put up with the MS fiasco and then pay to do it. Just wait until the "free" upgrade period to Win10 runs out and see what comes next from Redmond. A decade-and-a-half ago I switched all my computers to Linux, learned how it works, learned how to administer it, trained its users, and I haven't looked back (to Win) since. Life in my shop is so-o-o-o much easier for me, and way less expensive, than for my colleagues who still insist on buying and using MS products in their shops. My recommendation is to install either Mint or Ubuntu and stop the pain. It's like going to dentist when you need to and getting all the continuous pain over with.
Are you aware that those exact features, in their current incarnation were taken from Ubuntu and KDE? In fact they are both default on Ubuntu.
Ok, I'm not a super huge fan of Microsoft, but this sort of ruffles the feathers a little.
Here's what I say to people that spew this kind of nonsense:
If you want an operating system that is really an afterthought and more like a console gaming system in it's implementation: go Apple OSX. Why? Because if you had absolute control over +95% of the hardware configuration, you can make an uber stable OS tailored to that configuration, not unlike Windows Embedded. If people think OSX is so superior, then why doesn't it have the broad out of the box hardware support Windows and Linux do? I'm sorry but out of the box support that *just works* means a LOT, but this mindset of "It Just Works(TM)" of the Apple crowd is condescending BS... Try loading OSX on any box and come back and tell me "It just works".
If you want to spend a lot of time going back to the command line and monkeying about in text files to configure your OS as a downside, BUT have a damn stable ecosystem with limited or buggy bolted-on support for a lot of AAA Windows-centric games, go with Linux. Sure, there are games on Linux, but honestly, most of the games write for Windows first, and Linux is an afterthought for a lot of studios. Plus, there's the additional elitist mentality you can then exude because you're not one of those Micro$oft drones, right?
I look at it like this: Each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses. Hell, I even like OS/2 and BeOS. There's no reason to be snotty because someone likes Windows any more than Linux/OSX.
Apple treats people like shit.
.
Amazing - a +5 troll
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
A person does not have to be a shill to simply have a rational look at an OS and see that a whole lot of the bullshit being spread around the internet about it is just nonsense. Also, spouting away about shills every time you see somebody say "hey windows 10 is ok", makes you look a little silly.
My desk at home is crowded with my windows 10 PC, a Linux box and a FreeBSD system. I expect that quite a few ./ people (the older and experienced portion maybe) have more than one operating system in use in their daily lives, and are not scared of experimenting and trying things out. These people are quite capable of comparing Gnome 3 with Windows 10 and saying what they think. Stop wanking away about "shills" every time you see a statement you don't like on here.
I have several Linux boxes an iMac, and a W10 evaluation machine. It's a pity, W10 actually works well, but I won't put anything important on it. Wireshark is your friend.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Linux is way more stable than windows on my laptop, for any purpose.
Yeah, my iPad is way more stable than windows too.
But I still use Windows on my Laptop, because iOS, just like Linux, is totally useless for doing any real work.
https://pics.onsizzle.com/yes-...
Umm, no mention of OSX? I wouls love to hear how it is useless as well.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I work for a developer. We are a LAMP shop. I am no programmer. I help build out our KB and help customer implement our cloud based Print MIS system that we bill customer monthly. Just wanted to share that my opinion comes with absolutely no claim of expertise. I used to love the stability of XP. When Vista came out, I wanted to murder any and all involved with building and deploying that. Later, I was quite happy to live with Windows 7. Life went on, then, my laptop became old and prone to problems that any 5 year old computer might have. So, when we purchased a new laptop for me, we installed windows 10 so "someone in the company could test issues". I am VERY happy with Windows 10, miserable that Skype got all messed up since Microsoft changed things, and no matter what version of windows, still hate Microsoft Dynamics but use it every day. So, in summary - as a work-a-day user, it is a worthwhile OS in its own right. Of course, I spend my entire day within a Google Chrome browser, so, truth be told - I suppose my opinion is worthless as I am hardly experiencing the OS in any meaningful way. . Runs Adobe Photoshop version 6, even though folks warned me that it wouldn't
is its inability to update now. Edge is terrible; keep FF or Chrome. as well as the new music player. otherwise the update was seamless. my .02
alive to the universe, dead to the world
Microsoft made their bed when they paid people to promote Windows without disclosing their relationship with the company. The possibility is always there that any praise of Windows is compensated.
I don't understand why people put any effort into white-knighting a huge, insanely rich corporation to protect them from lying in the bed they made.
Apple treats people like shit.
Apples is the least open and least compatible, even failing to work with earlier versions of products they made.
If you want openness, use Linux. Fedora, CentOS and Ubuntu are great.
If you want an OS that is most compatible with hardware and software, use Windows.
If you want to "feel cool" while paying a premium, then buy Apple.
As a long time user of Macs, i have noticed a significant shift in focus away from the user to features and behavior only for the benefit of the company, myself. Sorry to say, but the behavior that M$ has adopted recently is right out of the "new" Apple's playbook. And I am convinced it's very much Tim Cooks doing. Certainly Steve Jobs would be "rolling over in his grave", as the expression goes, so see what Tim's been doing to his company. It brings to mind a quote in a mid 90s interview when discussing his appointment of John Sculley.. "What can I say? I made a mistake"
To be fair, Sculley did turn Apple around when it was on it's knees. It's just his methods that were iin question. I don't see Cook doing the same.. He's simply coasting.. each 'new' product is less revolutionary that it's predecesor... A bigger screen? phaa! A thinner book? bah! But an OS lifetime of 2 years? Ridiculous!
I used to really LIKE Apple... They don't even give me the chance to like them anymore....
I did a win 7 machine and a win 8 machine. Both were HP products, one a desktop, the other a laptop. Took a while to suck down all the stuff and do it. However the win 7 machine actually fixed some problems with 10. It's running like a champ. The 8 machine, well it's way better than 8 IMHO. I have recommended just doing it. Nobody I know has had a problem.
Sounds like the whining I used to hear about going to XP, some other versions. So far no BSOD, or other problems. Sometimes I don't appreciate how it'll reboot to update itself, however. Probably a setting.
I was not; however, the comment I replied to specifically referenced the OS X/Windows feature comparison, not Ubuntu.
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
Also, the external USB keyboard needs to be unplugged and plugged back in frequently.
These problems weren't present on Windows 7, which ran on similar hardware (same display, same keyboard, different laptop and dock).
Basically, I'm pretty amazed that Windows 10 actually shipped in this state. But I walked away from MSFT's stuff in 2010, when I asked a friend who worked for MSFT what they did about the frequent virus infections that hit Windows (XP at the time, I think), and he replied that they just "reimaged" their systems every week.
Using it with a television to play games, right?
Without the NTSC glitch,CGA is quite horrid.
No, I'm well aware of the paper for a long time. All it proves (relevant to this discussion) is that there is some positive level of trust when using open source software. You are just repeating that in a million ways. I know that.
I also know that there is some positive level of trust when using closed source software.
What you haven't even started giving any evidence for, is that these levels of trust are equal. Unless your axiom is that any 2 positive numbers are equal to each other, I don't see a way of deriving this evidence from your endless steam of evidence that both levels of trust are positive.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Again: If you're not one of the few who compiles everything yourself, you have just as much access to the actual source your binaries are compiled from as someone using closed source software. Yes, you have access to the source the package maintainer claims to have compiled from, but you're trusting them, just as much as you're trusting Microsoft when you use Windows, to not have slipped a back door or some other baddies in before compile time.
To phrase it in a way you'll understand: Microsoft could open source Windows tomorrow, that source could be completely clean and devoid of any "evil", and you'd still not trust their binaries any more than you do today.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
you have just as much access to the actual source your binaries
Yes, but why is trust directly proportional to just "access to actual source your binaries are ... " ? Or, in general, an increasing function thereof? Why doesn't a publicly discussed developmental model have a role in determining the level of trust? Awareness of bug database, bug fix policy, open bugs (except the details of some security sensitive bugs) doesn't have a role? Code review reports from qualified, non-NDA-bound and non-conflict-of-interest people doesn't have a role?
I don't see you produce any evidence of that.
Yes, you have access to the source the package maintainer claims
Which is why some definitions of Open Source Software contain conditions about "easy" compilability of the source distributed. By the users.
just as much as you're trusting Microsoft when you use Windows
Why just as much as? Why is the trust level equal?
To phrase it in a way you'll understand: Microsoft could open source Windows tomorrow, that source could be completely clean and devoid of any "evil", and you'd still not trust their binaries any more than you do today.
Not the first day. But if progressively development discussions/decisions happen in public, bug database is public, source code is reviewed over time by more and more people who don't have a conflict of interest with Microsoft, are more and more qualified to do the review, and get more and more time to review - why shouldn't the trust levels decrease over time as some of the trust has been replaced with verification?
Then, as a corollary, why should the level of trust in software that has been Open Source from very early on, be considered the same as the level of trust in as yet closed source software ?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Yes, but why is trust directly proportional to just "access to actual source your binaries are ... " ? Or, in general, an increasing function thereof?
Your other questions lead quite well to the answer.
Why doesn't a publicly discussed developmental model have a role in determining the level of trust?
If you're building from source yourself, it does.
Awareness of bug database, bug fix policy, open bugs (except the details of some security sensitive bugs) doesn't have a role?
That's relevant for the functional usability of the software, but not so much for trust in its security. Visibility into the source code itself is useful for that but, again, only if you're compiling it yourself (and with a trusted toolchain).
Code review reports from qualified, non-NDA-bound and non-conflict-of-interest people doesn't have a role?
No, not at all if you're part of the 99.95% of FOSS users who don't compile themselves and, therefore, have to trust someone else not to have slipped a backdoor into the code they compiled.
I don't see you produce any evidence of that.
Because, and I repeat myself, it is self-evident: you must trust whoever builds your binaries. They could very well have slipped any code into what they compiled, not just what you see when you review the project's source.
Which is why some definitions of Open Source Software contain conditions about "easy" compilability of the source distributed. By the users.
And, yet, users who compile everything on their system from scratch are exceedingly in the minority, with most relying on binary packages available in their distro's repositories, such that they must trust the individuals who compiled those binaries not to have altered the publicly available source prior to compilation. Have I repeated myself enough times yet?
Why just as much as? Why is the trust level equal?
Because you have just as much guarantee that the package maintainer didn't slip malicious code into the project before compiling it. You see the code available in the project's repository but, by necessity, the package maintainer compiles from their own local copy of that code; nothing stops them from slipping in whatever other code they want before they compile. Again, I repeat myself.
Not the first day. But if progressively development discussions/decisions happen in public, bug database is public, source code is reviewed over time by more and more people who don't have a conflict of interest with Microsoft, are more and more qualified to do the review, and get more and more time to review - why shouldn't the trust levels decrease over time as some of the trust has been replaced with verification?
Trust in the code provided by Microsoft, and the binaries resulting when you compile it yourself? Yes. Trust in the binaries provided by Microsoft? Why would you trust them any more than you do today, given that you have no guarantee they were compiled from the exact same code made publicly available?
Then, as a corollary, why should the level of trust in software that has been Open Source from very early on, be considered the same as the level of trust in as yet closed source software ?
Again, you must separate binaries compiled yourself from binaries compiled by others. If you compiled it yourself from well-audited code, trust it. If someone else compiled it, well, you don't know that they didn't modify the code before they compiled it. I keep repeating this, hoping that it'll eventually sink in: you DO NOT know what source a binary you did not compile yourself was compiled from. Even if the project's sou
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
If you're building from source yourself, it does.
You litter your post with this meaningless qualifier - I didn't care initially because it doesn't add any value to the discussion. But since most of the post is now full of this making it difficult to read - let me state that this is meaningless. Like adding "unless false" to any proposition.
Why? Because no one has built anything of the level of typical modern software system from the ground up. Ever. So, unless false, if true, and whenever 1 ==1 , this is a meaningless qualifer.
Because, and I repeat myself, it is self-evident: you must trust whoever builds your binaries. They could very well have slipped any code into what they compiled, not just what you see when you review the project's source.
Which is why in a typical open source software usage scenario - multiple entities down the distribution build the binaries - often with different toochains, small modifications to code as per their (different) understanding. Remember, these are multiple entities/people/groups/organizations who have no conflict of interest, don't have a single "management hierarchy", not even live in the same legal jurisdiction.
Are you telling me that the trust level of the entire world conspiring against you is the same as one company preferring its interest over yours?
you DO NOT know what source a binary you did not compile yourself was compiled from.
Which has zero to do with my question - why is the TRUST LEVEL EQUAL between 2 completely different software development methodologies? Where the motivation of developers, distributers, testers, users, reviewers are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Why? Because no one has built anything of the level of typical modern software system from the ground up.
FYI: "build from source" refers to the binary in question, not the entire toolchain. There's a reason I mention the two concepts separately: because they're different.
in a typical open source software usage scenario - multiple entities down the distribution build the binaries
Right, so I have to trust multiple different entities not to have fucked with it
often with different toochains
Which will yield different and thus non-comparable binaries, leaving you no means to verify the code was unaltered by comparing multiple binaries
small modifications to code as per their (different) understanding...
and indistinguishable from a backdoored binary
Remember, these are multiple entities/people/groups/organizations who have no conflict of interest
You know that evidence you keep asking me for? While it's true that most may simply want to put out a good and useful binary, it only takes one bad actor and, as you said above, everyone's binaries are likely to be different for a multitude of reasons so you can't really catch it by comparing to your own compiled copy. At least we agree on that point.
don't have a single "management hierarchy"...
aside from the management structure of the project or distro, on behalf of whom they are compiling and providing the binary
not even live in the same legal jurisdiction
... making them harder to prosecute, should they turn a bad actor.
Are you telling me that the trust level of the entire world conspiring against you is the same as one company preferring its interest over yours?
It doesn't take the entire world cooperating to allow a bad binary into a repo, it takes the package maintainer of a single package in that repo deciding it would be nifty to slip a bit of malicious code into it, or having their credentials hijacked by someone who thinks so. In the case of the latter, it might (or might not) be reported in a timely manner and corrected before much damage is done, but in the case of the former, we've both already alluded to how difficult it would be to catch that, and why. Also, given that a package maintainer for a given distro has any number of people he can point the finger at to absolve himself of responsibility, while Microsoft has... well... Microsoft... in terms of raw accountability, I'd be more inclined to trust Microsoft.
Which has zero to do with my question - why is the TRUST LEVEL EQUAL between 2 completely different software development methodologies?
I answered that question, though it was orthogonal to the point being discussed. I'll repeat that answer yet again: If you're compiling your own binary from source you have reviewed, yes, that requires a lower level of trust than trusting a binary provided by someone else. I, however, am talking about the 99.95% of users who do not compile their own binaries and, therefore, must trust binaries provided by others. Those users, of which I'm nearly certain you are one, do not know what source the binaries they run were compiled from, because they did not compile those binaries themselves form known source. They have exactly as much insight into the actual source those binaries were compiled form as a user of closed source software has into the source those binaries were compiled from.
It doesn't matter how heavily reviewed, tested, vetted, and trusted the publicly available code of a project is if the person who supplied your binary skipped a bit of their own code in at compile time. The development methodology of the project has no effect on that. Period.
Now, as yo
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
... it would not need to force itself on users or be given away.
The insistence of MS that people upgrade pretty much speaks for itself.
No. It is not worth it. We wait for windows 11... even numbered OS's appear to be cursed.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
What the fuck does OS X have to do with Linux?
Nothing at all, fortunately.
Yes - you agree that the distribution mehodology and hence the risks are different between open source and closed source software. Now having dug a nice ditch for yourself, how do you go about proving the trust levels EQUAL ?
I repeat : EQUAL .
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
I upgraded from Win 7 and I'm happy with it. But I did find that I had better performance only after doing a clean install of Win10 as opposed to simply upgrading Win7.
Linux good for specialty things - a niche - but not ready for prime time general use by masses. 10 reasons:
1. Spend hours trying to get Linux to work with frequent hardware or software hiccups.
2. Boss not happy.
3. Not good for me when boss not happy.
4. Company not happy. Not good for boss when company not happy.
5. Company paying him (and me) pay for Windows software that can be used out of box more or less.
6. Work get done
7. Boss happy
8. Company happy
9. Boss get paid. Boss get to eat, sleep indoors.
10. Me get paid. Me get to eat, sleep indoors.
The stability of newer Windows versions if fine. I haven't had stability issues since XP.
It's really simple if you follow simple logic. Answer the two questions at the bottom of my previous post, they're designed to lead you right to that logic.
See, if I take the source code for Firefox and change every instance of "Firefox" to "Firefix", that is no longer the source code for Firefox; it will never be the source code for Firefox unless I commit that code back to the project and one of the project's maintainers accepts my code. If I compile a binary from that code, it is not a Firefox binary, it is a closed source binary based on Firefox. "Firefox" to "Firefix" is an obvious change, but you also don't know what other changes I may have made to that code before compiling it; let's assume I made a handful of other less obvious changes, perhaps of a malicious nature. You would never see them; they're not in the code for Firefox. Now, let's assume I only make those non-obvious changes and still call it Firefox. Well, it's still not Firefox, because my changes don't exist in the Firefox codebase; and you still don't know I made those changes because all you have is a binary, and that binary is not Firefox. Firefox's "distribution methodology" means nothing to that binary. It means just as much to any other binary that you did not compile yourself; you have absolutely no way of knowing what source it was compiled from.
To illustrate this another way, let's examine two bottles of liquid. Both liquids have an identical appearance, taste, smell, and feel, and both have similar labeling; the only apparent difference is that one has ingredients (source code) listed on the bottle and the other does not. The ingredients listed are water, sugar, and lemon juice. Which bottle do you trust?
Now, given our conversation thus far, I'm going to assume you'll trust the open source bottle. After all, it tells you, right there in plain text, what's in it, and you know there's nothing unsafe about water, sugar, or lemon juice, they just mix to make lemonade.
Now consider that the second bottle may contain a poison that will kill you immediately upon ingestion. Do you still trust the bottle with ingredients printed on it?
Why? You didn't mix and bottle those ingredients yourself, you're only trusting whoever did not to have, instead, filled the bottle with poison.
Threat binaries the same way.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Not just using the composite, but abusing the "slow" ntsc encoder to produce 16 colors from the original 4.
So you are trying to climb out of the ditch you dug for yourself. Do you take back the admission you made about differences in distribution methodologies of open source vs closed source software? If not, where is the evidence that in spite of heavy differences in distribution methodologies - trust levels can be identical? I love non-trivial proofs - I will settle for evidence here.
I typed the rest of the reply, but I will save it for later.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
I dug no ditch, you simply fail at logic, and I take back nothing.
Answer the simple questions I have posed and you will see the logic.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Ok, probably you don't understand processes. Let me try my reply, in the hope that you once understood some of that, and only recently stopped understanding. Because it is difficult to teach in a post :
See, if I take the source code for Firefox and change every instance of "Firefox" to "Firefix", that is no longer the source code for Firefox; it will never be the source code for Firefox unless I commit that code back to the project and one of the project's maintainers accepts my code. If I compile a binary from that code, it is not a Firefox binary, it is a closed source binary based on Firefox. "Firefox" to "Firefix" is an obvious change, but you also don't know what other changes I may have made to that code before compiling it; let's assume I made a handful of other less obvious changes, perhaps of a malicious nature. You would never see them; they're not in the code for Firefox. Now, let's assume I only make those non-obvious changes and still call it Firefox. Well, it's still not Firefox, because my changes don't exist in the Firefox codebase; and you still don't know I made those changes because all you have is a binary, and that binary is not Firefox. Firefox's "distribution methodology" means nothing to that binary. It means just as much to any other binary that you did not compile yourself; you have absolutely no way of knowing what source it was compiled from.
Absolutely correct. And completely irrelevant to my original question.
To illustrate this another way, let's examine two bottles of liquid. Both liquids have an identical appearance, taste, smell, and feel, and both have similar labeling; the only apparent difference is that one has ingredients (source code) listed on the bottle and the other does not. The ingredients listed are water, sugar, and lemon juice. Which bottle do you trust?
Isolated pieces of liquids? To be used as pesticide? The limbic (and more primitive parts of ) brain takes over, and the prettier salesgirl wins. Every single time. By prettier salesgirl I mean it literally, as well as the looks of the packaging, supermarket positioning, looks of the fluid itself if the packaging is transparent etc.
As a process, you mean to say one company refuses to list ingredients, refuses to let health inspectors evaluate their processes, restricts independent labs from publishing findings of testing the pesticidal qualities of the liquid.
Another encourages you to walk into their factories, listen to your inputs about its processes - though it may not act on them, though the inputs it does act on were also publicly given, teaches you to make your own lime flavoured pesticide etc. Yes, I choose the open source one.
Now, given our conversation thus far, I'm going to assume you'll trust the open source bottle. After all, it tells you, right there in plain text, what's in it, and you know there's nothing unsafe about water, sugar, or lemon juice, they just mix to make lemonade.
So attracts ants and other pests in addition to being maybe useless as a pesticide. Even if you meant the liquid as a drink all along - no, only the process matters. Isolated drink/pesticide decisions cannot be taken by the neo-mammalian cortex as there isn't enough information. Though the neo-mammalian cortex will do its damnedest to justify (rationalize) the decision taken by the brain stem and neighbours.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Absolutely correct. And completely irrelevant to my original question.
Your original question has already been answered. If you compile yourself, FOSS is more trustworthy. However, I was making a point before you came along; I set the topic and your question was not relevant to that topic.
To be used as pesticide?
Who said anything about pesticide?
you mean to say one company refuses to list ingredients
well, if we're talking about pesticide, they don't have to list ingredients, but who said pesticide?
refuses to let health inspectors evaluate their processes
health inspectors don't inspect pesticide... but, then... who said pesticide?
teaches you to make your own lime flavoured pesticide
If you trust someone to teach you how to make lime flavored anything from water, sugar, and lemons, then you're a bigger idiot than I had presumed. Also, who said anything about pesticide?
So attracts ants and other pests in addition to being maybe useless as a pesticide.
No, really, who mentioned pesticide?
only the process matters
So, then, it doesn't matter that someone could have poured out a bunch of bottles of that lemonade and replaced them with the otherwise identical poison, then put them back on the shelf? Because the process by which the legitimate lemonade is made is open and trusted, the compiled product is automatically trusted not to have been tampered with?
You still fail at logic. Perhaps it's because you're so caught up in process.
Though the neo-mammalian cortex will do its damnedest to justify (rationalize) the decision taken by the brain stem and neighbours.
You're illustrating that quite aptly.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
which the legitimate lemonade is made is open and trusted, the compiled product is automatically trusted not to have been tampered with?
Not tampering is part of the process. Your fallacy is to think Open Source is mainly about the source being visible - actually it is about the process. Visible source is just the final step without which the whole process loses all value.
That fallacy is why you point to Microsoft "suddenly" open-sourcing its products, and talk about liquids without talking about context or the purpose of the liquid. It was fun to see you tripped up when your non-specification of the purpose was caught.
So my hope was in vain, you never understood processes. It is a difficult to study in isolation, being multi-disciplinary but read "Distillation Design", by Kister to get started.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Not tampering is part of the process.
So, Mozilla's project maintainers influence Canonical's package maintainers? Canonical, not Mozilla, compiles the Firefox binaries in the Ubuntu repositories; Mozilla's process means nothing once the Firefox package maintainer at Canonical takes hold of that code. And you're still trusting that package maintainer not to slip his own malicious code into Firefox when he compiles it.
Visible source is just the final step without which the whole process loses all value.
Bingo! There we have it! And a compiled binary is one step beyond source code! You don't have visible source if you're using someone else's binary! And you just said it yourself: without visible source, the whole process loses all value.
read "Distillation Design", by Kister to get started
I'm familiar, actually; you're simply misinterpreting. See above.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
If the process doesn't include visible source, all value of the process is lost. Again, your brain works in silos, so you may not understand.
What did you understand from Distillation Design?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
If the process doesn't include visible source, all value of the process is lost.
That's not what you just said. What you just said was:
Visible source is just the final step without which the whole process loses all value.
Those are two very different statements; nice backpedal attempt, though.
What did you understand from Distillation Design?
A number of things, none of which are relevant to this discussion.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
What do you think visible source is the final step of? When just preceded by "it's all about the process" ?
AI of 1970 has surpassed your language processing abilities of today.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
My language processing skills? Really? You don't see how moving "visible source" from the "final step" to "a step" changes the meaning of the message? And you're questioning my language skills?
For the record, I was raised in an engineering household. My father is a robotics engineer, I grew up around electrical, mechanical, chemical, and software engineering, it has been an ingrained part of my personality since before I started kindergarten. You want to talk about being multi-disciplinary? Let's talk, I've got literally a lifetime of it under my belt.
With that out of the way, yes, it does matter where in the process the visible source is; the source is the product. Much like ginn or vodka are the product of their respective distillation methods, source code is the product of an open source project. The product is, by definition the last step of the process.
That you take that gin or vodka and turn it into a martini does not change the fact that the gin or vodka, and not the martini, was the product of the distillation process. Likewise, that you take that source code and compile it into a binary does not change the fact that the source code, and not the binary, was the product of the development process. When someone hands you a martini and you accept it, you are trusting that they did not roofie it; if they did, that is separate from the gin or vodka distillation process. When someone hands you a Firefox binary and you accept it, you are trusting that they did not compile malicious code into it; if they did, that is separate from the Firefox development process.
Perhaps the most important thing to understand about processes, which you appear to be missing, is where they start and stop. Perhaps, for you, another read-through of Kister's book is in order?
Thank you for pushing me to find a way to make Distillation Design relevant, though.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Cinnamon is a good desktop environment, but not worth installing Linux Mint. Otherwise, KDE will probably be the easiest to pick up. XFCE/LXDE are fast and customizable
I'd like to clarify this, if I may: any desktop environment can be installed and used on just about any distro. For example, I install vanilla Ubuntu and then install my favorite "desktop" environment on it-- Awesome WM. You don't have to use Mint if you're interested in using Cinnamon-- you can install and use Cinnamon just fine on Ubuntu (or Fedora, or Debian etc).
If I had said "a step". I didn't, so you need to imagine creatively to feel better. And you need to run to daddy too. Impressive.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
If I had said "a step". I didn't, so you need to imagine creatively to feel better.
Hmm...
If the process doesn't include visible source, all value of the process is lost.
You're right, you didn't literally say "a step", it was implied. There's a huge difference between including and ending in. You made two distinctly different statements; it's not my fault you don't understand this.
And you need to run to daddy too.
It took you 7 hours to come up with that scathing insult? I was speaking to experience; spending weekends in an engineering workshop from age 4 through my teen years and actually getting to work with the equipment and pick the brains of the people who pioneered the modern incarnation manufacturing automation industry might have given me some insight. It is truly telling that, rather than continue attempting to counter my points, you've turned to insults.
One good turn...
Impressive.
What's truly impressive is that you manage to remember to breathe.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
the modern incarnation of the manufacturing automation industry
Typos. They happen.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Not implied, but you imagined to save your face.
The post was full of your self criticism about not being able to learn about processes in spite of growing up with engineers, and this imaginative defence of your inability to read. What was there to counter?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
My self criticism? Now who's imagining shit? You're still the one who can't recognize where a process starts and ends and you're trying to school me? Like I said, read Kister's book again, this time without shoving it up your ass first. You'll have to pull your head out of there, but I promise the experience will be life-changing.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Upgrade to Linux
aaaaaaa
You are imagining.
Well, you can't look beyond the end of a process. Hire an old AI to parse language, and you might be able to make sense.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Clearly, as I only have these "issues" with trolls like yourself, the problem lies with you. Fortunately, I feed your kind willingly, as a form of entertainment. I find it protects the weaker-minded who may internalize your idiocy.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
And you're the one who doesn't state the purpose of a liquid or a software binary before asking if it can be "trusted" or accepted.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Because the concept applies to all liquids and all binaries. I thought you FOSS nuts were all about not artificially limiting shit. I guess that flies right out the window when you decide it's fime to start trolling?
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
No it doesn't. Are you human? I've met some humans with low IQ, but your limitations are touching.
Binaries that are in non-executive role e.g. test payload for an encryption program, have a very different trust signature from those in executive role. Liquids, similarly, depending on their role.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Well, you can't look beyond the end of a process. Hire an old AI to parse language, and you might be able to make sense.
What happens beyond the end of the process is not part of the process; I explained this a few posts back, you didn't understand that, but you claim I'm the one with language processing problems. That's all fine and well, I'm still going to claim you're the one with his head up his ass.
Binaries that are in non-executive role e.g. test payload for an encryption program, have a very different trust signature from those in executive role. Liquids, similarly, depending on their role.
There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable, in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it. As for liquids, regardless of their role you must trust that they will fulfill that role. At least I got you to inject an argument into your insult stream this time.
But, that you stopped arguing and started the insult stream for 5 posts (whereas I simply injected insults into my arguments in response) tells me one thing: I've won. The rest of this is just for kicks.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable
Wow! Limitations isn't strong enough a word. Just because something is advertized as executable, there is NO REASON to use it for testing encryption? My hope for the world urges me to give you one more chance to think this through.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Over any other file? No, there is not. Well, except for the use case described after the word "except" in the sentence you quoted. Perhaps if you'd actually been able to parse English...
Also, if you're not going to execute it, you must trust that it is actually executable.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
gah... "unless", not "except".
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
And why would you assume "over any other file" ?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Why would it be the only available file? And if it's not, you've chosen it over other files. And you still have to either execute it to confirm that it is actually executable, or trust that it is.
If I'm missing something, how about you educate rather than denigrate?
Oh, right, because troll.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Yes, think "Why would it be the only available file?"
Or would it ?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
:) Of course you don't answer your own riddle, because you don't have the answer. Because, of course, you pulled it out of your ass for the sake of argument and there is no answer, as it is based on a false premise.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
What if I tell you that using a file doesn't mean it is the only available file ?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
What if I tell you I already know that, as evident by my saying both "Over any other file?" and "And if it's not, you've chosen it over other files."
Sorry. I forgot, for a moment, that you're projecting onto me your inability to parse English. In that moment, I did not realize you were trying to tell me what I already pointed out.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Having learnt this, how do you react to "Just because something is advertized as executable, there is NO REASON to use it for testing encryption? "
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable
You just imagined that I said there was no reason. You also missed, even after I pointed it out to you, the bolded part of the text I just quoted. Try not to miss it a 3rd time. I, then, continued to point out the following:
in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it.
Now, I know nobody is as stupid as you're pretending to be. And I know you know I know you're trolling. How can it even still be fun for you at this point? If I were you, I'd just be embarrassed, continuing to attempt trolling someone who has, several times, called you out on it and admitted they simply enjoy feeding your kind.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Can there be no other reason than to make sure it remains executable? After all you have learnt recently?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
I've learned nothing from you. Everything you're supposedly taught me thus far has been things I've already said, that you've missed or misinterpreted, that I've then pointed out I already knew before you "taught" me, by referring to where I stated what you were "teaching" me before you "taught" it.
Want to change that? State your point.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Can there be no other reason than to make sure it remains executable?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Why don't you tell me? Did we stumble across one of your homework questions?
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Well, you said "There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable, in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it."
Do you take back the statement? Or do you stand by it? So far you've defended it only in the unlikely special case that this was the only option available. How about the general case?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Do you take back the statement? Or do you stand by it?
Clearly, as I've stood by every other statement I've made thus far, it would be unlikely that this one would be any different.
So far you've defended it only in the unlikely special case that this was the only option available.
Except, and you've now quoted and acknowledged it twice, where I said:
unless you need to make sure it remains executable
So, now, we have two cases: where it is the only file available (which really shouldn't ever be the case), or where you wish to ensure it remains executable (e.g. to test the encryption and decryption processes).
How about the general case?
In general, any viable encryption will be able to work with any data. You could test it with literally any file. If the file is not intended to be executed, that it is executable is irrelevant, as is this entire line of discussion as far as I can tell.
You keep asking this question:
Can there be no other reason than to make sure it remains executable?
Clearly I do not know the answer. I'm fairly certain you do not, either, or you'd have spoken up by now.
I'm sure you've got, as most trolls do, this vision in your head of me sitting at my computer raging, throwing my mouse, pounding on my keyboard, and punching my monitor. Sorry to ruin your day, but you might want to review my posting history; I feed trolls like you for fun, not out of rage. I'm sitting here, with my wife, laughing at each and every one of your posts. I'm sending the highlights to my friends so they can get a chuckle out of your idiocy as well and, all the while, you think you're winning. I love it.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
OK, you say "There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable, in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it.",
And now you do provide a reason for using an executable for non-executable purposes. I've seen smarter baboons than you, though even the dumber ones did need to be thought of as having won.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
And now you do provide a reason
Actually, I provided the reason in the post that prompted you to ask for it in the first place, 12 hours ago. I also directed you to it once and quoted it twice, even highlighting the relevant part in bold text in the first quote. Additionally, you quoted it, twice if you count this post. That it took you until now to actually read what you were replying to (and quoting, even) is not my deficiency.
I've seen smarter baboons than you
There you go projecting, again. Even a baboon, were he able to read English, would read the complete sentence he were replying to before flinging his own feces across the room the way you have here.
though even the dumber ones did need to be thought of as having won.
In retrospect, I don't think it's fair to say I won; you didn't really put up much of an argument, though you were quote persistent in not doing so.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
So you don't stand by your statement that there is no reason to test encryption with an executable other than to make sure it remains executable. Interesting that you don't realize it.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
What evidence do you have of this? You honestly are one of the shittiest trolls I've encountered in quite some time; bonus points for your persistence, though.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
State a third reason for using "executable" for testing encryption other than:
1. Executable being the only file available
2. Making sure that it remains executable
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Ahh. Yes. Here it is:
If I'm missing something, how about you educate rather than denigrate?
and
Want to change that? State your point.
and
Why don't you tell me? Did we stumble across one of your homework questions?
and
Clearly I do not know the answer. I'm fairly certain you do not, either, or you'd have spoken up by now.
Furthermore, my statement was not that there is no reason to use an executable for testing encryption unless it is the only file available, a position you attempted to attack though I never held it. Likewise, my statement was not that there is no reason to use an executable for testing encryption unless it is to prove that it remains executable, another position you attempted to attack though I never he'd it. My statement was that those are the two reasons I can think of; though, it seems you've finally realized that and are, once again moving the goal posts.
Speaking of which, what the fuck does any of this have to do with trusting a binary? Have you given up on that front? And, if so, why?
You're still a shitty troll, by the way, but your persistence intrigues me. Not since 4chan have I seen such persistent failed attempts at trolling.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Furthermore, my statement was not that there is no reason to use an executable for testing encryption unless it is the only file available, a position you attempted to attack though I never held it
Then why did you say There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable, in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it.
Speaking of which, what the fuck does any of this have to do with trusting a binary?
With your IQ, possibly you might understand it in a year if you try hard. The clues are in this post as well, though only clear enough for a 6 year old non-developmentally-challenged human.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Furthermore, my statement was not that there is no reason to use an executable for testing encryption unless it is the only file available, a position you attempted to attack though I never held it
Then why did you say There is no reason to use an executable binary for testing encryption unless you need to make sure it remains executable, in which case you're going to execute it and, therefore, must trust it.
Speaking of which, what the fuck does any of this have to do with trusting a binary?
With your IQ, possibly you might understand it in a year if you try hard. The clues are in this post as well, though only clear enough for a 6 year old non-developmentally-challenged human.
Then why did you say...
Because I thought the other reason was obvious to someone of at least average intelligence and, therefore, went without saying. Oh, I get it... you're being pedantic.
With your IQ, possibly you might understand it in a year if you try hard.
My last IQ test, within the past month or so, places me in the top 3% of the population, since you mention it. That said, if I were to try hard (like you're doing), I might figure out that you're just a worthless subhuman troll who can't find his way back to his bridge. But, then, you're not worth the effort.
Why don't you simply state the supposed 3rd reason to use a binary to test encryption? Because, while you denigrate me for not being able to produce one, you yourself don't have a 3rd reason.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Then why did you say...
Because I thought the other reason was obvious to someone of at least average intelligence and, therefore, went without saying. Oh, I get it... you're being pedantic.
Yes, so you maintain there are only 2 reasons and no third is possible :
One of the reasons you do state : making sure it remains executable.
Other you stated later, and provisionally I can imagine you considering it obvious, though highly unlikely : the reason being that it is the only option.
Don't you think being able to think only these 2 reasons seriously undermines the perception of your ability to understand simple things?
My last IQ test, within the past month or so, places me in the top 3% of the population, since you mention it
Yes, claiming this doesn't take much intelligence. Demonstrating, which you are failing at, does.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
And, yet, you still can't provide another reason yourself.
Here's the thing about intelligent people: they typically try to educate. One example of that is stating a position and supporting it with facts when questioned, something I have been doing for the duration of our conversation. Another example is a willingness to learn, something I have been displaying (e.g. by asking you to provide and explain the example you claim I am missing). You, on the other hand, keep hinting at (though not actually stating) a position, refusing to back up any position with fact, and making posts full of insults and nothing more (without scrolling up to count them, there have been at least 3 of those so far): all signs of intellectual weakness.
Ball's in your court. Prove me wrong.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Stating a position and supporting? You have held multiple positions about how many reasons you yourself claim to have for using "executable" files for encryption testing:
1. Asking whether an executable can be trusted, without stating the purpose.
2. It took multiple hints for you to realize that this was idiotic, a file can have many purposes, with different trust profiles.
3. For all I know, you still haven't fully realized how idiotic it was to ask if any one trusts a file without starting the purpose of the file - I've tried "educating" you with one miniscule example - and there are thousands. 10,000 posts, and we might get somewhere.
This brings me to the point about educating : it happens when given an opportunity to think for oneself : after 5 hints, even *you* could understand, all by yourself, that maybe purpose of the file was relevant to its trustability - there is a long way to go but it's a start.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
You fail to see the relevance (or lack thereof) of many things, my friend. Perhaps that is why we don't seem to understand each other? For example, that an executable file is executable is irrelevant if you do not intend to execute it. However, if you do intend to execute it, your willingness to trust it is always relevant, regardless of its purpose; you must be willing to trust that it does not contain malicious code. As with every truth, there are exceptions, such as when you are executing a binary in a sandbox to, just as an example, determine what it does. But, we were discussing the actions and intents of the majority of users, not the handful of security researchers who might do that, and that is what makes the line of discussion you introduced highly irrelevant.
That I was attempting to stick the the topic, and was unwilling to consider possibilities which might apply to a different topic, is not my shortcoming; that you are unable to see that this is what I was doing is yours. Likewise, that the only way you could argue your point was to attempt to change the topic shows just how weak your point must be.
Additionally, simply telling me to "think" is not giving me a hint. You introduce no new information, yet I'm somehow magically supposed to think differently. You couldn't teach a lightbulb to glow if your finger was already on the switch, my friend.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Yes, poor communicators like you depend on audience to work around their own limitations. But if audience think of more possibilities than the limited intellect of such poor communicators can grasp, you guys get crazy.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Yes, poor communicators like you
You've seen and acknowledged my point, I'd say I communicated it quite well. You, on the other hand, refuse to state yours; yet you claim I'm the poor communicator?
But if audience think of more possibilities...
I still have no proof that you've done so.
you guys get crazy
Ah, I see, you must be projecting. Insulting someone you purport to be attempting to teach is pretty damn crazy.
Back on the topic of educating: typically, thought exercises follow examples. You've given no examples, thus it is improper form to present thought exercises.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
We are not done yet. It is a poor student that criticizes free education - you, one in dire need and ill-equipped to locate faults would do well to not do so.
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
It is a poor student that criticizes free education
Well then, I guess it's fortunate that I'm not being educated.
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
So, none of these counted?
If I'm missing something, how about you educate rather than denigrate?
Want to change that? State your point.
Why don't you tell me? Did we stumble across one of your homework questions?
Clearly I do not know the answer. I'm fairly certain you do not, either, or you'd have spoken up by now.
Why don't you simply state the supposed 3rd reason to use a binary to test encryption? Because, while you denigrate me for not being able to produce one, you yourself don't have a 3rd reason.
As an aside, did the Fedora 17 mouse driver ever get fixed so you can use that mouse in Windows? Oops! Yup, I saw that! Fedora 14 and 17 both use the mouse drivers bundled with X11 for PS/2 and USB mice and those drivers didn't undergo any notable changes between those releases, your mouse simply coincidentally failed at the same time you were upgrading your OS; you even acknowledged that the fault was with the mouse, yet you still stated that Fedora's driver must have an issue. Bravo.
It's probably for the best you only posted 2 blog entries, by the way. Getting comma, backslash, and single/double quotes working in your more recent script example would be a trivial one-line modification to your script. I'm sure you're intelligent enough that you've figured it out by now, maybe even implemented it; perhaps you should update the post?
Also, you speak English as a second language and haven't quite locked down the grammar, yet you're complaining about how I communicate? It's called proper English grammar, it differs somewhat from Hindi grammar, and I'm using it. Not my fault you never learned it. That said, your English is good enough that I'm able to understand you quite clearly (most of the time; sometimes you really garb it up and it takes a few read-throughs to figure out what you're trying to say), but clearly not good enough for you to consistently understand a native English speaker.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Who told your limited self that an "executable" could be used as a test payload for an encryption program in the first place?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
1 + 1 = 2, by the way; don't forget who told you that.
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
Well, I've done that no less than 6 times now. Good to see you're a man of your word.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
In this very post, you are giving up on coming up with more uses, and when you did it last time and I told you about one - you say it was obvious. How about you decide one way - either it is obvious, or you don't know.
It can't be both.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
In this very post, you are giving up on coming up with more uses
I quoted posts as far back as 38 hours ago where I'd given up on that. So, no, I'm not giving up just now, I gave up over a day and a half ago because it isn't relevant to the discussion in the first place. I even said as much 13 hours ago:
You fail to see the relevance (or lack thereof) of many things, my friend. Perhaps that is why we don't seem to understand each other? For example, that an executable file is executable is irrelevant if you do not intend to execute it. However, if you do intend to execute it, your willingness to trust it is always relevant, regardless of its purpose; you must be willing to trust that it does not contain malicious code. As with every truth, there are exceptions, such as when you are executing a binary in a sandbox to, just as an example, determine what it does. But, we were discussing the actions and intents of the majority of users, not the handful of security researchers who might do that, and that is what makes the line of discussion you introduced highly irrelevant.
How much time do you expect I'm willing to spend on irrelevant things? I've only bothered with you for as long as I have because tearing apart the barrage of logical fallacies you keep throwing my way helps keep my wit sharp for the arguments that actually matter.
and when you did it last time and I told you about one - you say it was obvious.
Because it was obvious. In fact, it was so obvious that I questioned why one should choose an executable file for testing, over any other available file. To a viable encryption algorithm, data is data; it'll encrypt whatever you feed it. If your encryption software is designed to encrypt files then, yes, it is obvious that it can encrypt executable files, because, well, they're files!
How about you decide one way - either it is obvious, or you don't know.
It can't be both.
What has been discussed thus far has been obvious. It is obvious that one use of an executable file is, well, executing it, and it is obvious that another use is testing encryption algorithms, as you could do with any file. Both of those are obvious; but it does not follow that any other uses would be obvious.
For example, an obvious use of a hammer is to pound nails into things. Another obvious use is to silence an internet troll by bashing their skull in. An example of a non-obvious use for a hammer would be rotating a large flathead screw. Of course, the applicability of this example depends on the type of hammer; a claw hammer would apply in this instance. A flathead screw with a sufficiently wide slot can be turned by inserting one of the tines of the claw end of the hammer and rotating the head. Even to most construction professionals this is not obvious, because it is fo far removed from the typical mode of use of the tool that most people would never even consider it.
Do you see how some uses may be obvious while others may not?
Another example: it is obvious you're a bumbling idiot of a troll, but that doesn't really tell me much else about you. Other things I know about you were only made obvious through some (very simple, mind you) research. But, there are still a great many things about you that are not obvious from the perspective I currently have.
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
And you've still yet to keep your word. Adjust my perspective, make it obvious.
We are not done yet.
Until you hold up your end, I should say we are.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I questioned why one should choose an executable file for testing, over any other available file.
The first bit of a non-trivial file could be 0 or 1. If one chooses a file with first bit 0, by this logic it could be asked why is it being chosen over file with first bit 1. Similarly, why would we choose a file with first bit 1, over any other available file? Instead of the first bit, such argument could be made for other attributes of a file e.g. executabiliy, file length, some content pattern etc.
Just because a file with a particular attribute is being chosen, it doesn't mean that is the attribute because of which it is being chosen "over any other available file".
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Until you hold up your end, I should say we are [done].
I meant it. It's so tempting to counter, though, because you just made this one soooooo easy, but no. We're done here.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
My end of educating you has been held up for days now.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
Until you do, we're seriously done here.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
What if I tell you I could test my decompiler with it?
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
unless you compiled it from source
Nearly 5 full days ago days ago and before you even came along.
My point is, effectively, unless you are one of the few who actually ... compile everything themselves
4 and a half days ago, also before you came along.
if you build everything yourself
and
something that is only possible if you compile them yourself
Both just over 4 days ago, in response to your first and second comments in this thread.
Again: If you're not one of the few who compiles everything yourself, you have just as much access to the actual source your binaries are compiled from as someone using closed source software.
Nearly 4 days ago, in response to your third comment in this thread.
No, not at all if you're part of the 99.95% of FOSS users who don't compile themselves
3 and a half days ago, in response to your fourth comment in this thread.
I, however, am talking about the 99.95% of users who do not compile their own binaries and, therefore, must trust binaries provided by others.
An hour later, in response to your fifth comment in this thread. I didn't repeat it for a while after that because I figured you must have gotten the point by then. Clearly, I was wrong, so...
But, we were discussing the actions and intents of the majority of users, not the handful of security researchers who might do that, and that is what makes the line of discussion you introduced highly irrelevant.
That was clarified more than 14 hours before your post and repeated (quoted) in bold and hour and a half later.
Back on topic; Of course, it stands to reason that a user who doesn't compile their own binaries also does not have a decompiler, so it follows that we can ignore decompilers when discussing those users.
Is there another option that a typical user might conceivably try? I can think of literally dozens of different things I can do with a binary (and I'm not trying too hard to think of them) but, then, I'm not the typical user. Can you really only think of 3 (and only one of which a typical user is likely to do) is very telling.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
We'll reach there. Right now it is the response to your insistence on my continuation on the topic :
Once you accept that you fail to see any more uses for supposedly executable files, I'll show you.
I knew you were not ready, and you'll misunderstand, but sometimes a teacher has to acquiesce to I'll thought demands of the students.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
You mean my insistence that you keep your word? What you quoted there, by the way, was . You get that, right?
Let me put it another way: I don't need (and never needed) to prove myself, I've only meant to disprove you. Which I've done. Thoroughly.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Rerolling... lost a portion of my message to a messed up HTML tag.
You mean my insistense that you keep your word? What you quoted there, by the way, was your own words. Your promise, not my demand. You get that, right?
Let me put it another way: I don't need (and never needed) to prove myself, I've only meant to disprove you. Which I've done.
Thoroughly.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
The complaint I keep seeing is not that the information is sent, but that we can't see what information is sent. There are two solutions to that problem:
A) Send the information in plaintext. Of course, then (as I already mentioned), people will complain that the data is being sent in plaintext.
or
B) Store a plaintext log of the telemetry data for the user to review. Of course, then, people will point out that, because it's sent over an encrypted connection, there is no way to verify what's actually being sent.
Of course there is. Publish the public encryption key and you can confirm the plaintext encrypted with that key matches the data transmitted.
Really? So you couldn't think if another use for an "executable" file, admitted so 6 times, you alleged that I couldn't either, but I did, though much before you were ready.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
That's not quite how SSL works; and we're talking about, essentially, plain text sent over HTTPS, not an encrypted file sent over HTTP. It was a good try, though, and I applaud your thinking; that idea actually hadn't crossed my mind.
That solution absolutely would work if it were an encrypted file sent via HTTP or some other clear protocol, though. I think it could be doable!
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
You did, you thought of one that was not relevant to the group of users originally under discussion (defined well before you joined the conversation); likewise (and if you read my entire post you'll see this), I can list several dozen uses for executables, but I didn't list the ones not relevant to the conversation.
Oh, wait... you're implying that you can decompile the binary back to its original source. I see you've never actually used a decompiler, then.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Oh, wait... you're implying that you can decompile the binary back to its original source. I see you've never actually used a decompiler, then.
Oh wait, you are implying that you understand implications. I see you never actually understood implications, then. You need 10 years preparatory education for that.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
Get fucked.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
This is not how the preparatory education starts.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
That's not quite how SSL works
Well no, it's not, but the problem as you say isn't insurmountable. You lose PFS by using the same key for every transaction, but realistically if it's anonymised data then that shouldn't be a big issue either, if it IS data that people would be upset at being transmitted in the "clear" then it shouldn't be sent anyway.
I guess you could roll the keys once a month to reduce the vanishing "risk" of someone breaking a 2048 bit key for telemetry data.
I think it depends. If you're on Windows 8 or 8.1, the Windows 10 upgrade is a no-brainer for me. Windows 10 is infinitely better than 8 and if your software and hardware work on 8 they work on 10. Windows 7, the question is a bit trickier. Myself personally, I've never had any issues with Windows 10 and it runs fine for me. I would not willingly downgrade to 7 or 8 again. Mind you, I am using Windows almost exclusively for gaming -- most of my time in my PC is in development and for that Im using Ubuntu more and more.