Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Is It Ever OK To Quit Without Giving Notice?
HughPickens.com writes: Employees and employers alike have the right under at-will employment laws in almost all states to end their relationship without notice, for any reason, but the two-week rule is a widely accepted standard of workplace conduct. However, Sue Shellenbarger writes at the WSJ that a growing number of workers are leaving without giving two weeks' notice. Some bosses blame young employees who feel frustrated by limited prospects or have little sense of attachment to their workplace. But employment experts say some older workers are quitting without notice as well. They feel overworked or unappreciated after years of laboring under pay cuts and expanded workloads imposed during the recession. One employee at Dupray, a customer-service rep, scheduled a meeting and announced she was quitting, then rose and headed for the exit. She seemed surprised when the director of human resources stopped her and explained that employees are expected to give two weeks' notice. "She said, 'I've been watching 'Suits,' and this is how it happens,'" referring to the TV drama set in a law firm.
According to Shellenbarger, quitting without notice is sometimes justified. Employees with access to proprietary information, such as those working in sales or new-product development, face a conflict of interest if they accept a job with a competitor. Employees in such cases typically depart right away -- ideally, by mutual agreement. It can also be best to exit quickly if an employer is abusive, or if you suspect your employer is doing something illegal. More often, quitting without notice "is done in the heat of emotion, by someone who is completely frustrated, angry, offended or upset," says David Lewis, president of OperationsInc., a Norwalk, Conn., human-resources consulting firm. That approach can burn bridges and generate bad references. Phyllis Hartman says employees have a responsibility to try to communicate about what's wrong. "Start figuring out if there is anything you can do to fix it. The worst that can happen is that nobody listens or they tell you no." What do you Slashdotters think about providing employers notice of departure? Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?
According to Shellenbarger, quitting without notice is sometimes justified. Employees with access to proprietary information, such as those working in sales or new-product development, face a conflict of interest if they accept a job with a competitor. Employees in such cases typically depart right away -- ideally, by mutual agreement. It can also be best to exit quickly if an employer is abusive, or if you suspect your employer is doing something illegal. More often, quitting without notice "is done in the heat of emotion, by someone who is completely frustrated, angry, offended or upset," says David Lewis, president of OperationsInc., a Norwalk, Conn., human-resources consulting firm. That approach can burn bridges and generate bad references. Phyllis Hartman says employees have a responsibility to try to communicate about what's wrong. "Start figuring out if there is anything you can do to fix it. The worst that can happen is that nobody listens or they tell you no." What do you Slashdotters think about providing employers notice of departure? Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?
A company cannot fight for right-to-work laws, then be upset when employees exercise their right to not work.
More data, damnit!
Show them as much loyalty as they will show you - i.e. zero.
That's the Cosmic Shame.
Employers LOVE at-will, when it's in their favor. But a lowly employee exercising that same right? Ohh nooo, you're just young and inexperienced.
If I'm an employee and I fuck up or do something that is grounds for termination... no employer in an at-will state is going to say "Okay, we're firing you, but we're going to let you keep working here for two more weeks while you look for a new job". No, you'll be out on your ass.
Well, if a company treats me in a way that I view as unacceptable, guess what.. I'm not giving you two more weeks of my life. The whole "employees are expected to give two weeks" bullshit is a such a double standard in many cases.
I will give you notice if you treat me in a way that deserves for notice to be given.
If this story leaves you a feeling of dejavu, don't worry, it's just Hugh Pickens cross-posting on /. and SN again to attract more traffic to his site
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
It entirely depends on the kind of job it is and whether you need it on your resume. I would say if you have been there less then three months don't worry about it. On the other hand if you have been there over six months you would be better off giving a standard notice so you can use it on your resume to explain your employment history.
At my point in my career I would never walk out unless I won the lottery big.
As a contractor, I have more than once had a manager come to me on friday afternoon and tell me, "Don't bother coming in Monday... or ever!" As such, when I was offered $25/hour more than I was currently working to start another contract, but I had to start right away, I didn't bother giving notice, and was informed "yeah, just leave your page and parking permit with the security guard on your way out." As far as I can tell, nobody cares about notice anymore.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I did this just a few months ago. There is this false belief that everyone is allowed time to sort things out (the weak and stupid call it 2 weeks notice).
Horse shit.
If you aren't happy. Leave.
This is pretty simple stuff. You owe them work for a pay check. If you leave, you don't get a pay check, and they don't get work.
I have like ten weeks vacay banked. I can give ten weeks notice and walk right out the door.
I will, of course, generously offer to consult hourly at 90% of the rate my boss charges clients for my time for the first three months.
You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
Why not?
I can laid off without notice. Others are laid off without notice. The company can fold without notice.
Why, oh why, should I worry about people who don't worry about me?
without any warning. The answer is IT ALWAYS OK TO QUIT without notice. Fuck'em and Feed'em fish heads.
Typically when a company lays off an employee (or a few employees) as part of a layoff, how much notice do they give?
Usually it's immediate and involves a security escort to HR.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
I left a job and gave them two days notice because I saw the writing on the wall. They were hemorrhaging money and couldn't keep talent and I knew the job wouldn't last. I got another job in another city and they asked me to report the following week. This was on Wednesday. So I walked back inside, told them I Friday I was done. They scowled, scoffed, criticized and demonized me to the rest of the company. I even had to pay back a signing bonus I received due to a contract I signed. Didn't care. 10 days after I left the company, they folded - gave everyone pink slips and no severance. Loyalty doesn't mean anything, anywhere, anytime. Look out for yourself. Protect yourself. I gave a company I worked for previously a month's notice and they still complained I screwed them over ... so you can't win. Do what is best for you.
Does your workspace always give a two week notice for laid off employees? If not, why should employees bother when the situation is reversed?
On the same note, do you expect employees to invest major effort into protecting your confidential information? Better secure employees SSNs and other confidential information well and offer financial compensation if the system is hacked.
It is nothing personal, but when the employer is reducing head count, it is never with a 2 weeks notice. You have a sit down get a box and they guide you to the exit of the building. Severance pay is optional.
So I would treat them the same. I will give notice and get a box myself.
When you leave, the prior employer is probably not the best source for a reference.
Even when you give 1 month of 2 months heads up. Once you decide to leave, they don't talk that great about you anymore.
If the company in its employment contract always gives two weeks of severance, minimum... then perhaps it makes sense. .. But most companies don't. If they fire you, severance is something they optionally pay. They have zero loyalty.
I don't know why a worker would reasonably give them two weeks of notice in these cases. It offers few, if any, advantages to the worker, and could cause them to be fired before the quitting date.
So, tit-for-tat says you don't scratch my back (severance), I don't scratch yours.
If you're not being mistreated, then don't be a jerk. *Especially* if your leaving without notice will screw over your co-workers, who plan to stay. If you have a good working relationship with your boss and co-workers, then jumping ship to greener pastures is not only acceptable, but even celebrated.
I know for a fact, that if someone in *my* group were to quit, it would totally fuck over for my vacation plans, and I would lose a LOT of money.
Your network is absolutely vital in today's job market. Screw over your employer, or worse, your fellow employees? They'll remember that. And they'll post about it on Facebook and LinkedIn.
But if this is because you're a daily ration of crap? And you're in a right-to-work state? AND you have no reason to expect you'll ever work with your fellow employees again, or your leaving won't hurt them?
Drop that bomb with pride.
[End Of Line]
Quitting without giving notice is rude. That's all, just rude.
If your employer has been reasonable and supported you with things you want (perhaps flexibility in hours, or training), then two weeks notice is only the polite thing to do.
If they've been extorting god-awful amounts of overtime from you, perhaps with the ever-present threat of being let go for no reason at all, then a little rudeness isn't out of place.
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
There's no loyalty the other way, employers fought long and hard to make sure it works that way; why do you owe them anything?
Mostly random stuff.
The "two weeks' notice rule" is fostered by employers, for their own benefit. Few give employees the same courtesy upon separation. ... not out of some sense of obligation or duty.
I have always given (at least) two weeks' notice when departing, but as a courtesy to my manager, and a desire to not burn bridges/generate acrimony
A 2 day notice is always appropriate.
"I quit 2day"
RE:see subject
There are probably situations where I wouldn't, but in most cases where I'm simply looking for a new job, I want the parting to be amicable, and I don't want to leave fellow co-workers in the lurch and burn bridges. There's just no need to go scorched-earth on shit, and not only does it hurt the employer, it hurts ME as well, because reputations have a way of following you. So I try to give enough notice to transition things properly. I've sometimes spent the majority of my last 2 weeks documenting well for whoever will adopt things, to make their lives easier.
Now, that's not to say it's never warranted to walk out the door right this moment. But I see those situations as exceptions, not the norm. Going all "fuck you!" all the time is unpleasant for all concerned, even if you don't HAVE to give the notice. There are many things you don't have to do, which still make things nicer if you do them when there's no compelling reason not to.
Certainly. Pretty much any question framed that way yields a 'Yes' answer. I've walked out on abusive bosses. Most notable was as a single dad and the SOB said I should bring my two year old daughter in evenings and on Saturday because he'd made promises that couldn't be kept. That company destroyed two marriages I know of.
BUT, have backup money or you're an idiot (especially in my circumstance). If no money, make sure you're walking right into another job.
Same here. Every job I quit, I just stopped going. I saw that as the equivalent of them saying Friday at 445pm that you're done.
Quitting without notice is a dick move, you are hurting your ex-coworkers more then anyone else, they are the ones having to pick up the slack till you are replaced. Forget about bosses that are doing something illegal or treating employees badly, that is rare to happen nowadays no matter what the Union mafia says.
There are some rare occasions where i would agree that quitting on the spot is fine, but not often. Just a dick thing to do.
I have worked at places where notice of quitting results in an immediate call to security, being escorted off the property, all clearances immediately revoked, and being told that you can come back for your personal effects in a few days after security has verified that it is your property.
More to the point, a company can (and will) fire you w/o notice if they feel like it. Why should you not be able to 'fire' them in the same fashion?
Companies are sociopath entities that are only as good to you as they least friendly person to you in any position of power. They don't care anything about you or your well being. People within the company might, but the company does not, it exists to make money. You might owe people loyalty, but never a company.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Seriously, if they don't boot you the moment you give notice, the two week "lame duck" phase can be the best part of your time working there. Spend a day finishing your leftover projects and writing some halfassed documentation, bullshit by the watercooler 7 hours a day for 8 more, and turn in your work on day 10. The next guy can deal with any do-overs needed.
And if you hate your job due to your immediate boss but don't have another one lined up, never quit! Turn it into a job you like until they fire you. Do the projects you like and completely ignore the ones you don't like. Boss complains about 1 hour lunches? Take a 2 hour lunch instead. If you work for a large enough company there's enough red tape and "protocol" to keep you employed for at least a month while you do whatever the fuck you want. Bonus, if you play by the rules they won't even be able to fire you "with cause".
The man who told me this secret managed to "work" a full extra year while giving 0 fucks at a job he would have hated, had he cared.
I have personally worked at firms that felt it was OK to lay people off without two-weeks' notice (and without severance pay). So, yeah, I think it's ok. Have I ever done it? No. Would I ever have done it? It would take some pretty extreme circumstances, since I'm a firm believer in not burning bridges (unnecessarily). However, at this point, I'm 63 and self-employed, so it's not likely to come up again in my own life. :-)
Bruce F. Webster (brucefwebster.com)
Given the acceptance of terminating and laying off employees without notice; why exactly would you expect them to be more courteous to you?
"She said, 'I've been watching 'Suits,' and this is how it happens,'" referring to the TV drama set in a law firm.
I watched all 5 seasons of Suits and I have no idea what this means. Furthermore, which She? The HR She or the quitter She said this? Which is how it happens, a two week notice or some kind of bizarre announcement meeting?
The question posed is "Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?"
Of course such situations arise. Giving notice should be the default, out of respect for co-workers who may have to juggle their tasks and schedules if you leave and ideally out of a respect for your employer. But if you work in an abusive workplace and have no ability to change that, then leaving immediately is often justified by the way you are being treated or by the way your employer is treating others.
Whether it is legally advisable, financially plausible, will hurt your career to leave, or will leave good co-workers in the lurch if you leave are all other questions that will influence the decision of whether to actually do it.
Real lawyers write in C++
but my employer demanded 4 weeks. I had to leave because I had discovered that they weren't paying my super, or any of the other employees, which was illegal on its own, but they were also engaged in a phoenix scam to avoid liability on back paying the super. So, in the end I lost all of my annual leave, didn't get paid for the last month of employment, even though my employer was the one who had broken contract by not paying super. This is the tale of another business that caught fire and burnt to the ground the moment I left, though, so I can't be too bitter. The life lesson I've learnt is if you are a bit of a bastard, you can literally double your yearly wage with a tactical-quit operation.
How exactly do you consider that to be equivalent?
It used to be expected that companies would give workers weeks or even months notice of a reduction in staff (or even find them new jobs).
That's gone now, they tell you and walk you to the door, so its not surprising that employee's attitudes are changing too.
Last year just before the holiday bonuses were going out my company fired bunch of people. No notice, don't pass go, get the f***out right now. I quit last month without giving them any notice but I made sure my work was impeccable during my last month. I got a BS from the boss about how I should have given a notice and offer to match the money. Well they should have given me the bonus in the first place when I asked for it before. Better pay and much nicer working conditions at my new place and I don't regret it for a second.
I've done it. Felt great and it did not hurt me at all. In fact, the company tried to beg me back a few months later. As others have said, loyalty (or lack thereof) can work in both directions. In my case, a new executive got many effective managers fired so they could put in their clueless friends and cronies. Long story short, one of them tried to pin the blame on me for their own failings. I told them if her persisted, I will quit on the spot. No surprise the finger was point in my direction at the big meeting the next day. In front of 50 people including most of the exec staff, I told everyone I would not be part of the charade and quit on the spot. Turned around and walked out the door without looking back. Within the next 3 months, at least half the department quit with many giving zero notice. The owners of the company soon realize how bad the situation was and fired the exec and all his buddies. Offers were made to all those that quit too return with a signing bonus and raise. Only a couple of people accepted the office. Today, the company is about 1/4 the size and barely hanging in. Oh well.
Sometimes giving notice means getting threats, contractrual tricks to force you to stay, and so on.
And there was that Head-of-HR client I had (in-home technician job, met her) who put it "so often companies will just humiliate or walk you out the door, or take other action against you, that you better just keep quiet and leave."
Q: Why is starting a comment in the Subject: field incredibly irritating?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
If the employee is so angry or annoyed that they are willing to leave without notice, it is probably best that they are just allowed to leave.
Do you really want a disgruntled employee, serving your customers, maintaining your IT system, managing your finances, ... for two weeks?
It maybe in the contract but it makes no sense to force someone to stay unless they are very closely supervised.
Leave without notice and start working the next day at your new job:
Result: Guaranteed no lost income
Leave with two weeks notice:
Result #1: Company fires you on the spot, walks you out and you lose two weeks of income
Result #2: Company keeps you on the payroll the two weeks, no loss of pay
All the risk is yours when you give two weeks notice, you give all the options to the company. When the shoe is on the other foot it is pretty much guaranteed that the company won't give you two weeks notice that they are going to let you go and few will pay you two weeks even though they'll walk you out right after telling you that you are fired.
My suggestion is spend a day or two putting together a transition folder, hand it in on the day you quit and wish them the best. Tell them that for security reasons you can't provide two weeks notice.
Well, it does depend a little on circumstances, and it's not without its consequences. You should generally avoid burning any bridges you don't have to, and it's not just the company's attitude to you that you need to worry about; other employees might remember you as that guy who up and left unexpectedly which made life difficult for everyone. Which can bite you in the arse a year or two down the line when they're a different company you're applying at and might have a say in hiring.
But if the company's treating you badly, or conditions are unnecessarily dangerous? You are justified in just leaving without notice, and such things are a secondary concern. And if things are bad enough, said hypothetical other employee may remember you as the guy who had the sense to just get out ASAP.
Phyllis Hartman says employees have a responsibility to try to communicate about what's wrong. "Start figuring out if there is anything you can do to fix it. The worst that can happen is that nobody listens or they tell you no."
No, that is not the worst that can happen by a longshot. The worse things will generally run afoul of workplace bullying laws, but that's small comfort.
The last day I showed up to work, I was thrown under the bus by the manager in front of our VP and the rest of the team for a lie to cover up the manager's incompetence. I went home, got up the next day, went to my doctor for a note to get the rest of the week off, and marched in on the following Monday to the reception desk with a letter of resignation and dropping off all of the company equipment. Didn't even talk to my manager, and didn't answer any of the manager's phone calls or e-mails, nor anyone else on the team after the day I got thrown under the bus. I, quite literally, disappeared.
Why did I quit like this, especially without another source of income or health care coverage? Because leaving a gaping hole with a giant question mark in my wake was the only bit of power I had left to send a message for all of the misrepresentation, incompetence, unreasonable expectations and malice of the team that I had experienced . My mental and physical health has improved substantially since quitting, and so has the relationship with my loved ones. That team was screwed either way, but royally so with some of their deadlines that I had left the gaping hole in their roster for. I would've loved to have worked for another part of the company and was more than qualified to do so, but corporate rules prevent changes in position for the first year, and I had no expectation of a good review despite having been a high performing employee at other companies.
In the end, these issues point directly to the utter contempt that technology employers have for their employees, particularly their low-to-mid-tier individual contributors. What else should they expect when they themselves give no notice to employees when they terminate them? What else should they expect when they treat their employees like trash, expect them to work startup hours while receiving established company pay and bonuses, change job descriptions at a whim, and don't have the decency to form any kind of coherent team environment or structure?
The real message to HR departments and upper management on this phenomenon is this: if employees are quitting without notice more frequently, your problem is with your current corporate structure, management, and business, not with the employee that quits without notice, and you ignore this problem at your own peril.
In the workplace of today, when employers ditch people in favor of cheaper offshore replacement, or downsize you out of a job with no notice, or the myriad of other crap employers pull, I think quitting with no notice is perfectly acceptable. That road goes both ways after all, if employers treat their employees like disposable commodities, we the employees can and should do the exact same thing.
That's how I feel at least. My current employer has treated me well, and seems to treat others well, too. So I'd probably be respectful and give notice. But I think if I worked for a company treating people poorly, I would feel no obligation to be courteous about leaving them.
I was working for a major defense contractor. Fortune 500 (probably Fortune 100).
Manager came in and told me that over his objections, I was being transferred to the Project From Hell. Before I even had a chance to think, the first words out of my mouth were, "I quit!". And my immediate reaction after that was "Oh my G-d... what the hell have I just done?"
Lucky for me, I was fairly senior, and the two other guys who were supposed to go to said project (who were senior to me) had identical reactions.
The three of us wound up in a meeting with the division's VP of Engineering. We didn't quit, we didn't have to transfer, and (fortunately), our careers weren't ruined (probably because the PfH had a reputation throughout the division).
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Many corps have a blanket policy against professional references. I've had a real problem with Hewlett Packard Enterprise in this regard; their HR says are OK with "personal references" but "advise against giving professional references". This is HR speak for "you can't give professional references". I had one company tell me they required professional references from a manager from a position in the last three years; which was impossible since HPE was my only employer for those three years.
Even more hypocritical is that HPE wants professional references yet refuses to give the same. And what is a "personal reference" anyway? That I can grill a good burger, and am fun at parties? That might fulfill a part of what potential employers are looking for (works well with others) but does little to ascertain how I function in a technical position. Once I finally pinned down their exact HR policy I told them the difference what they would allow for people seeking references; I guess it worked since I'm starting a new job Monday lol.
For reasons that escape me, so many people cease negotiating after they've agreed on compensation. Termination of employment is a negotiation as well, but under these conditions you usually have all of the leverage. If you aren't going to offer me an incentive to stay, then I see no reason for us to draw this process out further than this conversation. Do you have golden handcuffs in the form of an option vesting schedule? How about a 401(k) matching schedule? Great, then since my next vesting milestone isn't for 6 months anyway, it doesn't make a difference if I leave today or 2 weeks from today. Unless, of course, you'd like to revisit that vesting schedule. My health benefits stop in the same month I cease employment? Well, that's the same today or 2 weeks from today. Unless, of course, you'd like to revisit how long you're keeping my health benefits active. Repeat as you see fit.
It was the employer that wrote the at-will terms into the agreement. If they don't like their own terms, Not My Problem. For me it depends on two things: how satisfied or annoyed I am at my current position, and how anxious the new position is to have me start. If I'm relatively happy with my managers and co-workers and it's just that the new position's offering me better pay or different work, I'm going to push for 2 weeks notice before I start the new position just out of courtesy. If my current employer's willing to write a certain amount of notice to me into the agreement (ie. they won't let me go without at least X weeks notice), I'm definitely going to insist on giving at least that much notice before leaving. OTOH if my current employer insists on being able to let people go at any time for any reason with no notice, I'm going to be less than insistent on giving them notice. If I'm annoyed with them, and especially if the new position wants me right away, I'm not going to lose any sleep about giving them exactly as much notice as they give employees being let go (that is, none at all). The only consideration for me will be making the departure clean on my side, all my personal stuff cleared out, company data on my workstation safely backed up where my manager knows to find it if they need it, sensitive information that the company doesn't need (eg. passwords to linked-directly-to-me accounts needed for work, SSH/SSL/x.509 private keys) wiped, etc. etc..
If an employer has a problem with that, I suggest they review the idea that I'll grant them exactly the consideration they grant employees. If they don't consider their terms acceptable, it's entirely within their power to change them. If they expect me to grant them consideration without granting anything in return, I refer them to the acronym "TANSTAAFL".
In my contract I had one month notice both ways. When I quit we discussed and decided *together* that I will leave immediately. I was willing to work the month if they asked me, but they did not see no point that I take customer for one month and then leave. I was happy to leave because I had better paying work ahead. If they would end my contract they would have to keep me one month if I would wanted to.
It is normal in Europe that you have one month notice both ways.
I will caveat this with that I actively have just over 14 years of workplace experience in my "field of employment", which since I am a /.'er, I guess that lumps me into IT in some what shape or form.
With that, I live in a right-to-work state and spent almost 9 of those years as a government contractor. I endured the typical BS: pay cuts, freezes, lousy raises, a government furlough, health care hikes to make you make less for that year with your raise, benefit slashes with contract renewals going to the next company, shitty co-workers, shitty projects, shitty managers, worker shortage, attrition, ect. I could go on and on. The point I am making is: I was afforded every opportunity, reason to quit and walk the fuck out and there will always will be reason after reason to make you want to quit your job without reason and throw up the double fingers. The grass is never greener anywhere, it's always the same, drab shade it will always ever be, it's just what you make of it.
When I finally decided it was time to go, and move onto another position I was approached with in the private sector, I had plenty of vacation banked to take off a month paid, then put in a hastily typed immediate resignation letter and walked right out the day after coming back in. Did I? I would have loved to like anyone else dreams of doing but I didn't. I worked out my two weeks faithfully, documented things, properly transitioned work off as best as anyone can and took the high road. Why? What reason did I have to burn bridges? None. What if I want to go back? Would it be worth the happy hour story of being the Robin Hood of Everyone-Wants-To-Be to tell that one story where you told your employer to fuck off? Probably not.
People have very little reason to in general to spite their employer back and not put in a courtesy two weeks --- usually the things that burn us and drive us to that point all are business or environmental culture things that are most of the time out of our control and end up in the constant cross fire in. Did your job, as long as you did it, always yield a paycheck and some sort of benefits? Isn't that why you were there to begin with?
I'm not advocating you stay in toxic, cancerous or career suicide workplaces, what I am saying is there is this definite trend in people today, especially the millennial YOLO brats that have an over-inflated ego of worth and dedication. I was raised to do a job, do it well, never half ass and build a brand and name for yourself. Others don't operate that way.
I've been laid off with no notice and no severance in the tech industry before. So why should I give any employer a 2 week notice?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Even in situations where the place was going to hell and was suffering under the worst managers. (In the case I'm thinking of; a big, very bro-y, MBA-ish, golf-buddies-get-promoted, east-coast logistics company acquired the close-knit San Francisco tech company I worked for. The cultural differences were irreconcilable for more than a few of us.) The thing is, I wasn't giving notice for the benefit of the company. I was giving notice for the benefit of my co-workers. (The legacy ones from our days as our own company, that is.). Two weeks may not be enough time to hire an actual replacement. But if you're on the ball, you can cram in a lot of knowledge transfer and not leave your friends and colleagues hanging (Any more than is absolutely necessary as a consequence of your leaving.).
To provoke a no-notice resignation, I think I'd have to have become aware that the company was breaking the law or engaged in a serious ethical violation. Physical violence, or sexual harassment or orientation discrimination would probably do the trick too.
Imagine all the people...
in Europe notice periods are generally between 1 and 6 months, with 2 months being the typical notice period. Quitting without notice is only permitted in cases where an employer is unlikely to ever be able to pay, or trust has been destroyed beyond repair (goes both ways). If a court later on decides that quitting without notice was not justified, compensation of damages is due (goes both ways too, though damages are limitted to salaries paid).
I've been running my own business part time since 2006 while working a full time job during the day. In 2012 I finally decided to focus on my business full time.
Had our ups and downs, but I've never regret my decision.
When I last changed jobs, I spent much of that two weeks cleaning up documentation and writing a simple and direct "introduction to the position" document for my replacement. During that time, my boss and backup did my normal duties. In doing so, she ran into a few hurdles, some questions. I was there to assist. By the day I left, she had been doing my daily job for two weeks. (While interviewing, I arranged for our workload to be light for the following few weeks).
At my current job, my boss recently quit. During his two weeks, he spent probably 60 hours documenting like crazy and demonstrating stuff for those of us he left behind. That was VERY helpful for us.
If you're leaving on good terms, give notice. If your boss is an asshole, then courtesy is not owed.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
In at-will employment states, a notice requirement can't be enforced. A lot of things that wind up in boilerplate employment agreements can't be enforced. If too many people knuckle under and feel forced to give notice to quit, we will end up with just the expectation that everyone has to give notice. Unfortunately, enough people are scared of "burning bridges" that this concern is taken seriously. Maybe we need to recover the attitude that we can do whatever we want that is not illegal, and by trial and error find out what works for us. I have both given notice and quit abruptly, and I never saw any good or bad effects from either course. Some of us are not as scared of the results as others, but we can't let ourselves be ruled by the timid.
Call a 'Rage Quit' whatever you want: I call it a tantrum. If your purpose is to walk out as some kind of revenge for imagined (or even real) abusiveness by your boss, your co-workers or TPTB, I guess dumping a can of gasoline on your head and self-immolating is about as effective...for you. And as /.ers all say, "I'm all I care about."
Instead, bear in mind that unless you are outrageously mobile and able to take a gig several states (or continents) away, you are probably a specialist in a regional market: You will likely find yourself working with some of these people again, and their opinion of you will matter in your future employment.
The fact that at-will employment means that an employer can kick the feet out from under you in 3 seconds with a 2 second head start doesn't mean jack in the long run: That is how the world wags. My favorite manager was pole-axed *this week* for political reasons: He was gone before his morning cuppa cooled.
If you want to keep working (and eating) you will think first about the effect that your spazz-out will have on you 5-10-15 years down the line. I've concluded that anyone who wants to stay employed whether full time or contract will guard their reputation jealously. Sure, I've had a 'fantasy rage quit' script in my head. I've also had the sense to keep it there. The pay-off has been 23 years of employment at 8 companies on both coasts and a total of only 10 months of unemployment in that time, 5 months each, once voluntarily. The gravy has been dozens of people that I can reach out to who will vouch for me and help me find work quickly if I needed help. An employee who has had manure poured on them and manages to quit with grace and dignity will be remembered as someone you want to work with again. The tantrum rage quit will make great office gossip for years to come, but nobody is going to help them if they're hurtin'.
flames > dev/null
It depends on if there's some advantage. If the company finds some business advantage to letting you go, they won't think twice.
So if you get another job and 2 weeks would make it difficult then screw um.
But if everything is sorted out time wise then not giving notice out of spite is just unprofessional.
Startup in Seattle on their 3rd (4th) pivot in a decade. As soon as I signed an apartment lease, they lowered the boom that I was hired to test and not for my specialized knowledge as advertised. First time I ever did it, but it seemed right in the moment.
I'm sure they all miss you
lucm, indeed.
I work in a small office in the construction field, there is an average of 25 people in the office positions at any one time... not including fab shop & welders we have experience 87 people quitting or being fired in a span of 2 years...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Both employers and employees should be courteous and provide two weeks notice. That may still translate to, "This is your last day, but we will pay you for the next two weeks."
So in my opinion, the answer to this is highly dependent on the employer. If the employer is reasonable to people when letting go of them, then the employees should show the same respect. If the employer does not treat people well on the way out, then the social contract is broken.
Evolution: love it or leave it
If you give two weeks notice, you often find yourself let go immediately.
Fuck em.
In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king--and the two-eyed man is a heretic.
And never walked off a job in my entire life till this year. Walked without 2 week notice, even after talking with corporate HR about the issues with the production manager. So they fired the manager instead. They finally fired him 6 months after I quit. I spoke with a former co-worker, and the place is whole different environment.
call in sick and warn the coworkers to call in sick and then park across the street when the FBI/IRS/FTC/FCC does a raid on them.
They'll fire you "without notice" so (assuming you have a valid reason) why not quit without notice?
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Two sets of issues at work here. Legal and practical.
If you are an at-will employee, then you have every legal right to quit with no notice at all. This is the flip side of the employer's right to fire you without warning. So, legally every right in the world to just say "I quit" and walk out the door. Employers typically do not think about employment at will from the employee's end.
However, many employers have policies that if you want to collect the accrued but unused vacation pay, you have to give notice.
Most employers would regard quitting without notice as bad form. It is generally a bad idea, as a practical matter, to burn your bridges behind you. So, that doing things in a business-like way and giving notice is the better choice. There is nothing wrong with saying - "I quit" and, "I can either work for two weeks, or when would you like me to go?"
Also - just to be slightly nit-picky. The issue here is employment at will. "Right to work" is a completely different legal issue - and has to do with labor unions and whether employees can be forced to pay union dues even if they don't want to.
Just remember- I am not your lawyer. Law is different in every state, and the fine level detailed facts make a HUGE difference in the outcome of legal questions.
My last employer wanted 4 weeks, which is standard for licensed medical personnel. However, they never use the time to find a replacement. By the time I left, they had JUST posted the position. It has been 2 months and they haven't filled it yet. The likelihood of finding an replacement for a departing employee with 2 weeks notice sounds even more bleak. It is a waste of one's time.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
No. There Is No Effective Fiduciary Duty to Maximize Profits
https://medium.com/bull-market...
I realise what you are saying is effectively believed to be true by millions, but its little more than a cultural myth. I'm writing in the hope people starting new companies don't behave in the crass manner you describe.
Does the company give at least two weeks paid notice to everyone it terminates?
Then my minimum will also be two weeks notice.
Does the company usually just tell people to gather their things and pay out the minimum it's legally required to?
Then my minimum will be the same.
Does the company generally give a couple of weeks severance unless for cause?
Then my minimum is also two weeks unless I'm quitting due to their cause.
Does the company have a good standard severance package?
Then I will also give them the option to have my work out longer.
Note: I say minimums. I'm also aware that, as poor as their behavior may be, I've also got my own reputation to watch out for. They may be a bunch of asshats. But my next employer is likely looking for reassurance that they'll get a respectful notice period and my quitting without notice, unless it's really easy to justify, just makes me look bad to future employers who background check.
FTA: "She said, 'I've been watching 'Suits,' and this is how it happens."
Sheeeit.
by Cyphase ( 907627 )
Was working afternoon shift on a Friday night, there were about 15 minutes to the 12 o'clock quitting time. My boss opened my door and said "I heard you were leaving", me "yes" , him "when?", me, "in about 15 minutes, him "oh". They had all weekend to find and train a replacement. I did not have anything against my boss, he was a good guy. Now the levels above him, there were some things that made me smile when I was walking to the car after the shift was over.
Passionately Indifferent
If I'm doing my job properly as a manager, no one should ever be indispensable.
Highly valued? Sure. I want to build a team where everyone is exceptionally valued.
But if anyone ever becomes indispensable, I've failed in my job as a manager.
Why? The hit by a bus factor. That wonderful employee who loves me, who I love... can still get hit by a bus. Can still get sick. Can still have a loved one die. Can still have a relative offer to pay all expenses for a once in a lifetime six week world trip.
If I have any employee that I can't keep my team running without, even at zero notice, I'm not running my team well.
It may suck. It may be sad. It may require some juggling I'd much rather not do. But any indispensability means I've done my job badly.
This means, if someone quits with zero notice, I can handle it.
At that point, it's actually a good thing anyway. If they're so pissed off that they'd statement quit, I don't need them in the office, poisoning others, dragging their heels through their short timer's disease. Let's get them somewhere where they're happy and get my team of great people back doing great things. We'll live.
Strange thing? When you have a well run team that you can already be confident in, people rarely statement quit anyway. For some reason, they don't seem to feel the need. Imagine that. And when they do? You've got it handled anyway.
A few years ago, I worked for a really great company that specialized in a proprietary software language. Our world was small and across the country I was probably 2 or 3 LinkedIn connections away from anyone who knows this language. I once had a really excellent employee come in and say he had a better opportunity without notice because he thought the grass was greener. After a couple months he was calling me because the opportunity wasn't what he thought it was. Of course, I said no, not the way he left. Also I was honest to any recruiter or any of my contacts who called about him: "He's really smart and knows his stuff but you can't trust him with anything critical as he may just up and leave without notice." It took him awhile to find something new.
i find it ridiculous when indian companies ask its quitting employees to stick on for 3 months plus.
They cannot fire you but you can disappear anytime.
Once they start giving 2 weeks to employees when cuts are coming I'll worry about giving notice. Till then? Screw em.
They will lay you off without notice and lately without any kind of severance. You can certainly walk out the door on them and not look back, especially if you see the writing on the wall (i.e. you are training your cheap foreign replacements).
The question is whether this is a SMART move or not. It will be remembered, that you can be sure of. And the boss who was about to lay you off without severance is probably next anyway, so very likely you will meet again elsewhere. There are other ways to screw upper management without shitting the bed. A good policy is not to fuck the people you work with, fuck the execs and fuck the shareholders for sure, but don't fuck your coworkers (figuratively, if they're hot, that's your business).
"Turn in your badge, log out and step back from the computer, pack your things, this guard will escort you out the building.."
I should know, I just did it about 15 days ago. In the middle of a project too. When I want out, I want out. Do what you need to do, it's not like they're going to blacklist you.
Quitting without notice is unprofessional. So is laying off employees without notice. Most employers would give notice in the event of layoffs or provide severance, so I think it's only fair that employees at companies which do that observe the same courtesy. However, you have to acknowledge there are exceptional cases and exceptionally bad companies, like in anything.
You may one day find yourself wanting a job where one of your current co-workers are working. Are they going to remember you as the ass who walked out and left them a stinking pile and ruined their vacation plans? Or does it suck so bad for them too that it won't matter? Everywhere I've worked it only takes one person to say no and you're not getting hired.
You employer can go pound sand.
Those heartless pricks would fire you at the drop of a hat without any 2-weeks notice if the circumstances arose. They remind you over and over you are "at will" because they want that distance between you and them.. then they pretend youre old friends all the sudden when you want to quit... gimme a break !
Your coworkers might encourage you to walk out but after they've had to pick up the slack that you've left behind their opinion of you will likely go downhill. Six months later you decide to jump ship again and surprise, surprise no one wants to give you a glowing recommendation. If you treat your coworkers like they could end up being your manager one day you won't have these kind of problems.
In fact there really is no reason to give a two week notice. With every paycheck you receive you and your employer are squared up. They can fire you without notice and there is no reason that you can not fire them without notice. This whole practice of a two week notice and 'playing fair' is archaic rubbish in my opinion.
Having said that, if you ever wish to get a good reference from them then reconsider.
But I have done it. Once. At Overstock.com. Their CEO and his close circle are the worst people I've ever done work for. Would never wish that on anyone.
A lot of people are making it about the employer relationship, and I don't see it that way. It's about your colleagues. Remember: you're leaving, but your coworkers are not, and neither is the work you leave behind. Depending on what kind of work you did, they might be taking over a bunch of what you were doing and they'll form some opinions about how well you did. They will not be inclined to be kind, because no one likes having a bunch of stuff dumped on their plate! Later on, they'll probably switch jobs too, and you might run into them again. If you go out as a class act, people will remember that when you run into them again somewhere else.
There are situations where you have to leave with zero notice, and you'll know when you're in them.
The converse should actually balance out nicely.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I worked at as a restaurant cook for three years after graduating from college when I got a software testing internship. Even though I had a new job, I kept working at the restaurant on Saturday nights for another three months. A waiter-turned-assistant-manager who blew off his kitchen training tried to bully me into making more Alfredo sauce 30 minutes before closing when we still had a quarter-pan left. After he threatened to write me up, I told him to make it himself and quit on the spot. He tried to bully another kitchen worker into making the Alfredo sauce but he refused for the same reason that I did. As an assistant manager, he should have been able to grab the recipe book and make the Alfredo sauce. He couldn't. When I went back in a week later to pick up my last paycheck, all the waiters were giving high-fives and thumbs up. The assistant manager had to redo his training and became less a cocky son of bitch after that incident.
And no means no... A deal is a deal. If you agree to give notice than be true to your word. Make your word valuable.
Obviously, if you are being asked to do something illegal or immoral than don't do it. If some idiot construes that as quitting without notice, than they have no concept of honor and don't deserve a moment's more of your time. If anyone questions your motives you have the truth as a perfect shield.
Greed is the root of all evil.
The worst is when you tell your new employer you can start Monday, then give two weeks notice expecting to be thrown out a window, when they not only accept the two weeks, but ask if you could possibly stretch that out another week or two. Now you are faced with the choice of a bad reference, or a bad start to the new job.
In most cases the bad reference is the better choice, but still sucks.
When my employer of 20 years announced that there was no payment for banked vacation days upon termination, I told them there would likely be no notice when I leave. If I were to give notice and they walk me out, I'm out all of my earned vacation time. They know when I take an unexpected vacation for 8.4 days, I'll be putting in my 1.6 day notice when I get back in the office. Or something like that.
As others have said, they hold all the cards. If they aren't going to do me the courtesy of paying for time off I've earned, I don't feel the need to take on the risk that is involved in giving 2 weeks notice. And for those talking about co-workers, I'm happy for my co-worker that quit with no notice a couple weeks ago. He'd been treated poorly by the company and he did what is best for him after 5 years there.
A guy at my company gave verbal four weeks notice (stupid, but still...), then when it came the date, which was well known by everyone in the company, they said he hadn't given notice. Didn't want to work with him over it or anything, so he went back to his desk, thought for about five minutes, then got up and walked out.
I've been on the job market - while employed and with my employer fully aware that I am searching - for well over a year now. I hold an advanced STEM degree. The job market quite simply sucks giant blue whale testicles. Yeah, there are lots of jobs out there but in the geographic region I'm in they are looking mostly for engineers while I am a scientist (I try to convince them otherwise and they ignore me). The biggest problem is getting my resume read by an actual living breathing human being; many people know that the vast overwhelming majority of employers do their initial screening with a commercial algorithm that their own HR department doesn't being to know the first thing about. If I manage to hit the right key works to get past there, I find that I applied to a position that the employer already had a candidate for.
In other words, an applicant faces so many hurdles beyond their control right now that it would be a poor idea for them to place any more in their own way. I've had employers in the past with whom I gave 2 weeks notice to and they accepted it and allowed me to leave earlier to start my new job; this is not terribly uncommon. It is far better to give the notice to retain the positive reference if at all possible.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
That just reads wrong. It looks like Dupray is the customer-service rep.
At the bottom of the
After giving other employers two weeks notice like normal, this last time I gave three days. Much better for all parties involved. I said I'm leaving, what would you like me to document? Documented what they asked for, handed in the laptop two days later and said good bye.
No hard feelings, no real problem with a short notice, or quitting, could've quit that day and it would have gone the same way. No companies give a notice anymore when they layoff hundreds of workers, or fire under performing employees. Every Friday is a crap shoot in American private industry.
How could they expect any different from the people in the work force?
Besides, we already have the bridges we want setup on Linked, Facebook, Twitter etc. well before we leave the company we are at.
If I saw co-workers being treated badly after giving two-week notices, then I would not.
The reason you can't find a decent job is because companies that are good to work at won't hire people like you.
You don't give notice because you give a shit about your (soon to be former) employer, you give notice because that's what a professional does. Walk out without notice and you declare "I am not a professional."
Small wonder you can only get shitty jobs. You're a shitty employee.
There are justifications for just about every action, in the right context, including shoving a nun down a flight of stairs...
I walked away from a position where I was accused of pocketing cash, in an environment where I was not even exposed to money. The blatant idiocy of the accusation gave me a glimpse into what working in the place would be like, and yes, after counter-challenging with an invitation for them to call the police if they thought for one second that they could actually prove anything, they didn't take me up on my offer but they did say they were docking an amount from the three days that I had worked. Being as the amount left wouldn't have even covered my bus fare, I told them where to stick their invisible paycheck where the sun doesn't shine.
You don't give notice because you give a shit about your (soon to be former) employer, you give notice because that's what a professional does. Walk out without notice and you declare "I am not a professional."
And yet it's "professional" to just walk an employee out the door without prior notice? Riiiiiight.
There are cases where it's okay to up and leave, yes. Management may want two weeks to wrap up loose ends, but it's just a matter of 'being polite' or 'being professional'. Yes, your references will suffer.
On the other hand, it's remarkably rare for employers to offer the same two weeks when they want you to be out the door, ranging from "there are free cookies in the lobby" to "this isn't working and you're done on Friday". So it's really a matter of turnabout being fair play.
on the meds. message not received.
Do employers give two weeks notice when they lay somebody off or fire them? If not, why should employees give two weeks notice?
Don't go gobbling all that corporate cock at once. Leave some for the rest of the whores.
op is still kneeling on his knees sucking dick, while getting fucked in the ass; and declaims loudly! its your fault you expect to stand.
+4 insightful; be serious.
Is It Ever OK To Quit Without Giving Notice?
Yes...In my case If I had to stay in that job another day, let alone the required four weeks to work off a notice period, then either I wouldn't be here today, or someone else wouldn't.
My employer only had themselves to blame, they were given more than fair warning about my increasing dissatisfaction about the 'issues' over the 6-8 months which led up to me waking up the fateful morning after two hours sleep, having been awake for the previous 36 hours solid - my usual 17 hours day extended with a 19 hour needless 'firefighting' session brought about by someone's great ineptitude for the job.
My waking thought was 'life's really far too fucking short to be putting up with this shit, sod this for a fucking game of toy soldiers, I'm off' I packed my Rucksack with what I regarded as essentials, left everything else, got on a train and headed back 'home'.
Did it immediately fuck up my employer?
no, I left them a stable system..did the systems eventually fuck up?, yes, for reasons I'd highlighted over and over again to them in emails. I only eventually found out about the expected/predicted fuckup after a couple of years...I'd made a clean break from IT work and wanted absolutely no comeback in the form of allegations of remote tampering which meant I kept offline completely and provably for a year and a half after 'spitting the dummy' as it was put..
Did it fuck me up?
Employment: short term: Yes, long term: No.
Financially: yes
Personally/Emotionally/whatever: no, It stopped me from doing something that would have seriously fucked me up, the only lasting legacy I can see is that it has made me more of a bloody cynic, if that is possible.
Regrets?
I lost some friends that day
As a hard core Libertarian; if anyone asks for credentials, I will be happy to provide them. When companies begin to respect their employees, then employees can respect the companies. If companies continue "employment at will" there is no reason that employees cannot pursue the same policy. As a society, we have accepted "employment at will" on behalf of the employer. We should do the same on behalf of the employee.
At one time, people would work cooperatively together. If you were part of a community, you helped each other. The creation of 'Company' allowed companies to part with employees at will. In the 1780's the German firm Krupp had a policy: If you wish to use the toilet during work time, you are required to get written permission from your supervisor, their supervisor, and then have it signed off by Herr Krupp himself. Don't let it ever happen again. In the early 1950's work was plentiful, you had a relationship with your boss. You could talk your way to a raise. There were company pensions and seniority you would work toward. That has all been ebbing for years. Pensions? Gone! Work your way up? GONE! Relationship? If you do your job, you get paid. If you don't you get fired. Many companies have an 'entry level churn': there are jobs that no one likes to do, so the company offers 'entry to the company' by offering work in a 'churn' job. But after about 6 months, the senior people realize that there is no exit from the churn. They leave, and more enter the churn. There is no 'moving up'. If we need you for job X, then we hire for job X; you don't go from job A to B to X. Companies listen to shareholders; employees are a commodity expense of doing business, and while in the 1950's they were occasionally treated like people, companies of the 2010's feel no such obligation.
I started a side business that was in competition with an employer [started at the same time I took a job with the employer]. Long story should several months went by and someone finally noticed. Humorous considering it was hugely successful and the side business was advertised under a DBA (doing business as). Anyway I had to quite on the spot or they would have fired me. I did say I wasn't doing anything and would continue out another two weeks if they preferred or I could just quit. They said the later. Humorously the side business was doing well and I had been intending to write a letter informing them of my resignation for quite a few weeks.. actually it was more like a month or two.
Depends on how much of a fuckhead the boss is.
I just stopped showing up to my last job, along with most people working there. The boss was out of state 90% of the time, only returning for a few days to literally scream at people. He would frequently "forget" to pay people, or pay people lower than the agreed upon amount after a week or two of them being hired.
Karma is biting him in the ass though. A whole four people working there now. He has pissed everyone off in my town and every nearby town that nobody is willing to work for him.
Today is the first day I agreed to go there in the last 4 months. His attitude sure changed once he realized few people would put up with his shit.
As others have said it really depends on the job. I had a horrible one about 4 years ago where we had to wear suits in a building that was always about 80, yet we never interacted with customers or even other parts of the company.
Whats worse is that any time we would take lunch our boss would call us up and scream at us, yet then he would "make it up" by buying us lunch once a month. We were doing shitty work on shitty 8 year old computers and then the final straw came down when he told us all vacations were canceled for the next 6 months, even my coworkers time off who was getting married and my pre-paid trip to Argentina for 2 weeks. I got up out of the chair in the conference room, grabbed all my stuff into a trash bag and walked out the door without saying a word. I should have quit sooner, but the pay was great at the time.
Walking out the door when asked to do something criminal is not going to land you in jail.
Hell no. Don't show up. Don't call. Just sleep in.
I have always found it complete absurd that a company would demand 2-weeks notice for quitting. Yet they will never give a person 2-weeks notice if they terminate their side. I treat previous employers like bad ex's. I do not allow prospective employers to contact my previous employers and it has never been a problem for me.
Support your local school shooter, give them your firearms.
I'm an employer at a midsized software shop.
I treat everyone with respect, and regularly help former employees find jobs, regardless of how or why they left.
Unless they quit without notice... Then I guarantee they will never be hired if I get called for a reference. I've even contacted their new employers to warn them, because I would want to know the same about new hires.
Don't be a shitbag. Put in two weeks.
Ofc, we all like to drive the wrong way down a one way street, but only the signmaker can get away with changing it.
Many businesses, especially software companies (my main experience) don't give employees any notice before firing them, downsizing, layoffs, etc. So what right do the have to expect notice when the employee is the one that ends it? Why don't they get a bad rep for the abrupt end of the relationship if that is a thing? It also depends on the company. Some companies want people to leave immediately as a general policy when they know for sure they are leaving.
That said I usually give at least two weeks notice when possible and there aren't extenuating circumstances. Sometimes they want that two weeks or more and sometimes they don't.
Dear Mr. Baker,
As an employee of an institution of higher education, I have few very basic expectations. Chief among these is that my direct superiors have an intellect that ranges above the common ground squirrel. After your consistent and annoying harassment of my co-workers and me during our commission of duties, I can only surmise that you are one of the few true genetic wastes of our time.
Asking me, a network administrator, to explain every nuance of everything I do each time you happen to stroll into my office is not only a waste of time, but also a waste of precious oxygen. I was hired because I know how to network computer systems, and you were apparently hired to provide amusement to your employees, who watch you vainly attempt to understand the concept of "cut and paste" as it is explained to you for the hundredth time.
You will never understand computers. Something as incredibly simple as binary still gives you too many options. You will also never understand why people hate you, but I am going to try and explain it to you, even though I am sure this will be just as effective as telling you what an IP is. Your shiny new iMac has more personality than you ever will.
You wander around the building all day, shiftlessly seeking fault in others. You have a sharp dressed, useless look about you that may have worked for your interview, but now that you actually have responsibility, you pawn it off on overworked staff, hoping their talent will cover for your glaring ineptitude. In a world of managerial evolution, you are the blue-green algae that everyone else eats and laughs at. Managers like you are a sad proof of the Dilbert principle.
Seeing as this situation is unlikely to change without you getting a full frontal lobotomy reversal, I am forced to tender my resignation; however, I have a few parting thoughts:
When someone calls you in reference to employment, it is illegal for you to give me a bad recommendation as I have consistently performed my duties and even more. The most you can say to hurt me is, "I prefer not to comment." To keep you honest, I will have friends randomly call you over the next couple of years, because I know you would be unable to do it on your own.
I have all the passwords to every account on the system and I know every password you have used for the last five years. If you decide to get cute, I will publish your "Favorites," which I conveniently saved when you made me "back up" your useless files. I do believe that terms like "Lolita" are not viewed favorably by the university administrations.
When you borrowed the digital camera to "take pictures of your mother's b-day," you neglected to mention that you were going to take nude pictures of yourself in the mirror. Then, like the techno-moron you are, you forgot to erase them. Suffice it to say, I have never seen such odd acts with a ketchup bottle. I assure you that those photos are being kept in safe places pending your authoring of a glowing letter of recommendation. (And, for once, would you please try to use spellcheck? I hate correcting your mistakes.)
I expect the letter of recommendation on my desk by 8:00 am tomorrow. One word of this to anybody and all of your twisted little repugnant obsessions will become public knowledge. Never f*ck with your systems administrator, Mr. Baker! They know what you do with all that free time!
Sincerely
David Blocker
Network Administrator
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
then there is no obligation to provide your services beyond the day you decide. if there is severance there is an ethical reason to give notice, but still not a legal one.
it's been ages since any company had any loyalty to it employees, no reason for an employee to be loyal.
It's very much a business choice, both for you and the company you work for. You have to worry about your personal business, and the company (management) has to worry about company business. If it makes sense for you not to give them 2 weeks notice, then that is a choice you have to decide to make. When you have a job it's a business relationship. Even if you are working for family, it's still a business relationship, and you need to treat it as such. You, if you have a job, have a business responsibility to yourself and any family that relies on you. Because those people are stakeholders in your business.
Your employer has a business responsibility to it's stakeholders. Your employer doesn't have ANY responsibility to you other then keeping you around while it makes business sense to keep you around. You have a responsibility to make sure that if your employer decides you are right for business that you have enough money or other streams of income to survive that temporary disruption in your business. That's on you.
This isn't about unemployment. Unemployment sucks, I've been on it twice in my life and barely ate while paying rent. If I had had my shit together and saved more money like I should have, I'd have been fine. But I didn't because I was a fucking idiot.
Since the Supreme Court of the United States declared companies to be people, they also (without saying so) declared people to be business. I have two stakeholders in JTM Heavy Industries. My wife and myself. Anyone else is just an interested party. As one of two stakeholders in my personal business I have a responsibility to keep cash flow going. I hate my current job, hell I've never had a job that I loved, but I'm not walking away from it until I can leave on my terms (or they fire me).
You never walk away from an ATM while it's spitting out money. And until I can either replace that ATM with another one spitting out money, I have a responsibility to stand there and take as much of that money as possible. And while I am taking that money I am also saving it as much as possible. The more money I can save, the better off I am. The more money I can invest into other streams of income, the better off I am going to be.
Live below your means.
Live your life, and your job isn't your life.
Your job pays for your life, but should never be your life.
Never forget it and never, ever let it things get to the point that a hick-up i business destroys your life.
From huge corporation to tiny three man company.
Each of them 'lamented my passing' but they also had a replacement by the end of the week (or in the case of the 'lowest job', 7-11 by the end of the day.) Every one of them made sure I was just below full time work to keep me from getting overtime and had irregular enough hours that I couldn't hold down a second job alongside them. Having applied other places, putting fixed hours/days of employment generally doesn't get you a call back.
Outside of specialized and skilled labor (and even inside of it for popular skilled labor jobs) the preference is cheap, controllable, at your beck and call over good, independent., and respected enough to mutually schedule so that you can both financially succeed.
Hope I have just had a shitty job history, and this isn't the norm for others.
I have heard multiple stories of this exact sort of behavior, including having been to a company dinner where the manager told them they were like family, and then happening to be at the store randomly on the same day said employee was fired (they tried to force a VQ on him to avoid benefits) after 2 years working there for disagreeing with the same manager over a 2 week reorganization project that him and other staff members had stated was a bad idea, only to be told after finishing it to put everything back how it was originally.
For anybody wondering, that was Fry's Electronics. If they still have the employee checkin station next to the newspaper ads, go and stand there during shift changes and listen to the employee complaints. I would assume it was an isolated incident if I hadn't been to multiple Fry's stores and heard similiar stories of mismanagement.
I have worked previously in the US but I must say that I prefer the Scandinavian setup we have here (in Oslo, Norway):
You must give notice, typically 3 months from the end of the current month, and if your employer wants to fire you they must also give similar notice, i.e. 3+ months.
For older/more senior employees the notice interval increases for the employer, up to 6+ months for a worker in her sixties.
What this means is that both parties know that they have to stay civilized.
In a case of possible conflict of interest it is common for these long notice intervals to be negotiated down, sometimes to zero. I.e. when I considered leaving my then job to go work for a major client of ours, my CEO told me that I would be allowed to leave immediately. (I didn't accept that offer so the question became moot.)
OTOH, I have been in a situation where I effectively quit immediately, but that was only an in-house transfer:
I went to my yearly performance review after a year of effectively being my own boss, but I still needed someone to be responsible for signing my time sheets and travel expenses etc, so the same person was doing my review.
The guy started the review by saying "Terje, as we both know you aren't really working for me so I had to go out and ask a few of the people you have been helping over the last year, and according to them it sounded like we should put a statue of you outside the corporate headquarters!"
OK, so at this point I was thinking 'This is going very well!' but then he continued "- but since I have a limited sum to distribute for pay raises I have reserved that for my own people and given you a negative evaluation so you will not be getting anything this year".
At this point I stood up, saying "I don't think we have anything else to talk about", left the room and went directly to HR telling them they had better find me a new boss to report to.
Terje
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
And yet it's "professional" to just walk an employee out the door without prior notice? Riiiiiight.
It isn't.
That why most companies don't do that either.
Asshole companies get asshole employees and asshole employees get asshole companies.
Most people and companies aren't assholes, and they'll both be decent about ending employment.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
No, what you are declaring is that you don't consider the company greater than yourself. Two-week notice for one and having guards escort you to the door for the other are primarily an obedience ritual establishing and reinforcing society's power relations. "Professionalism" is really just our version of chivalry and bushido: a set of behaviours designed to transfer power from people to structures, all wrapped in philosophical bullshit which lets people pretend they're "professionals" or "honorable" rather than what they actually are: slaves.
Of course they are, just like George Washington and his merry band were shitty subjects to the English crown. People with a sense of self-worth tend to make for shitty subjects. It doesn't mean they're wrong, though.
You're not wrong in describing cause and effect, but you are wrong in taking this causal relation as an unalterable law of nature rather than a social construct which can be changed. An unconditional and livable citizen wage, for example, would instantly depotentate unemployment as a threat and thus make people more free, or at least less beholden to the soulless legal constructs known as companies we've given near-divine status in our society.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
A small, family-run business, deserves notice and a reasonable time to prepare a replacement and some of your time to help in the transition IF they have treated you reasonably. It's a reciprocal thing, and only you know if they have treated you reasonably. "Reasonable" does not mean "lavish". Most small businesses cannot afford high pay and benefits, but ANY business can easily afford to be courteous and considerate to employees.
Modern larger businesses, however, are an entirely different matter.
They often give people ZERO notice; they often know full-well that they are doing something bad (in the case of outsourcing or replacing somebody over office politics, or as a way to replace them with a younger and cheaper person) and they are also aware that firing a person is a major disruption in his/her life and family economics, so they fear their employees and want to jettison them like expended drop tanks on a fighter plane. I worked at a company about a decade ago that told a guy on Friday that they had him scheduled to start a new large project on Monday, and over the weekend two things happened: he bought a new car, and management had a meeting and decided to cancel the project and reduce staff. On Monday after they guy had been working for a couple of hours his manager came to him to escort him from the building.
Businesses USED to behave more honorably, but in these days of globalism they too-often view employees as a burden to be used where possible but eliminated as soon as a cheaper option arises. It's standard practice to say things like "our real value is our people" just before laying them off without notice.
With modern corporations showing ZERO loyalty to employees now, they themselves deserve ZERO consideration and probably deserve sabotage, though I advise strongly against that as unethical, harmful to the co-workers you leave behind, and ultimately only harmful to you. Just because your employer may be a completely two-faced unethical snake, that does not mean you should join him in the sewer. Keep your head high. Behave at all times honorably and ethically, and count of positive word-of-mouth from co-workers. Do NOT assume that your method of departure will have ANY impact on any future job recommendations; I have personally seen managers on the phone with management of other companies bad-mouth excellent former employees who they interacted positively with as they'd left; they sometimes did it as a game, and sometimes because no matter how friendly they'd pretended to be they were mad the persons had left and that their costs had gone up when finding a replacement. One guy even trashed a good former employee in order to convince a competitor to NOT hire him and then end up competing against him.
Recommendations from former employers used to matter a great deal. Now, however, society is infested with lawyers and most employers are paranoid about getting sued, so they all tend to give neutral recommendations no matter whether they loved you or despised you. If they give you a bad review, they worry you will sue them. If they give you a good review and your new employer is not satisfied, they worry your new employer will sue them. The best recommendations these days are from peers/co-workers, and your own work products.
Unless you have a contract with special terms, you are under no obligation to give advanced notice. If you can get another job lined-up without your current boss's knowledge do it. When you cut ties, do it as quickly, cleanly, and unemotionally as you can. I did this once with an employer who'd become a bit of a jerk and was getting all-too accustomed to doing it. I arranged the new job start date and such and then waited for the most satisfying moment. On a particular day, when we were in a meeting and he went nasty. I shocked everybody in the meeting, told him he had used up his allocation of goodwill, and I would not be returning after lunch. I told him he did not even need to send me a final partial paycheck, and he'd be wise to learn to tr
I've worked at several companies and when I decided to leave I would always have another job lined up before hand. That being said, so far I've always given my 2-weeks notice but I've seemed to be pretty lucky as most places I've worked have treated me fairly. Last place I left was Microsoft, I gave my 2-weeks, I was scheduled for on-call for that first week I told my manager I would still do it so not to screw my team over. My boss said thanks, and I notice you have a month left of paid vacation how about you just do that week and leave that Friday. It worked for me, also she said she would give me any recommendation that I needed.
I really don't like to burn my bridges if I don't have to. If I was in a bad situation with an employer then yes I could presumably not give my 2-weeks.
Yes, yes... It's a double-standard, and we all know it. It's going to stay this way until SOMETHING IS DONE ABOUT IT!
When companies hire new employees, they ask for references to make sure the applicant was not a complete irresponsible asshole at his last job. I suggest applicants do the same right back at the company: Ask the interviewer for references of people who have left on their own (not fired) so the applicant can call them and ask them why they left.
There should also be a yelp type review of companies on Linked-In (are you listening Microsoft?). This will allow people searching for jobs to determine just what kind of bullshit the company has pulled in the past.
In other words, companies that tell you at Friday 4:45 that you needn't come in on Monday aren't professional either.
I think we should assemble a list of such companies. I don't want to employ companies that have a non-professional attitude.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
In Sweden you need to give at least one month notice by law for both employer and employee. Most larger companies have union agreements which give 3 months notice (both ways). Agreements can be made to end the contract earlier and if there is a conflict of interest a deal can be made to stay home with full or partial pay.
Employers respect their employees enough to treat them respectfully until the contract expires regardless of who ended the employment. If they didn't do this noone would work for them.
Companies that are "good to work at" don't care about how many weeks you offer in convenience to a previous employer.
All that good companies care about is your merit at what you are paid to do.
The amount of time given and the general way of parting ways is nothing that is usually defined unilaterally. At least not by non-assholes. And assholes, self entitled snowflakes (which do exist on both sides, don't feel left out snow-flaky bosses!) will eventually run out of options of good employments, and good employees.
I had both in my time. There were companies that I didn't want to leave but had to, which meant that I stayed until they had found a replacement and I had the replacement up to speed (leading to 4 months longer tenure than expected), and of course they could call at any time if any questions remained.
And then there was the "here's my mandatory 4 weeks notice, and by the way, I have 4 weeks vacation left over, which I take NOW, good bye. I found something new. More money. Less YOU" job.
And both time I felt good and right to do exactly what I did.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
How do future employers know about how you left. I hear repeatedly that most HR depts. will confirm that you worked for the company and maybe confirm the positions and time frames but that's it. They will not report derogatory unless they can back it up with citing criminal charges.
So how does the new firm know that you were "unprofessional" in the timing of your departure?
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Walking out isn't going to cut it. Local law requires me to call the police and inform them that I was asked to perform an illegal act.
Employers around here know this, though, so such requests tend to be few. For obvious reasons...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Ever given a two week notice only to be treated like shit then escorted out of a building 3 days later? 20 years ago I would have 100% agreed with you, but times have changed, work environments have become hostile, advancement is offered to the most unscrupulous coworkers, raises don't happen, and executives keep on playing golf.
This is our new American dream reality, companies treat employees like shit and now they're wondering why people have had enough and quit without warning.
in the uk employees have to give a week, employers have to give longer notice.
most employees when they leave are reasonable coming to a mutually agreed timeframe to move.
then u get the 10% who will lie about being sick (to get paid) then leave via phone or email. Saying "that's what you do". Erm no it's not - but here there is nothing an employer can do. Yet another typical example of Britain in the toilet from a business perspective.
Here in Denmark, Office workers (after 3 months of employment) gains 3 months notice from the employer, growing to 6 months when you have been working for 15 years. On the other hand, office employees must give 30 days notice prior to the beginning of a month. So at beginning of a month, you will stay for almost 2 months, at the end of the month (most usual) you can leave in one month.
One reason employees tries to delay informing is, that employer can then demand they spend the rest of their holiday as part of the 30 days (lower salary).
This works fine.
Uneducated labor have different conditions, some often doing day to day work.
But if US employees stops giving 2 weeks notice, so might the employer.
Glassdoor.com
Contracts in Germany usually have a probation time of 6 months. Within that time both sides can quit anytime, that same day. After that the contract transforms into a so-called unlimitted/permanent contract. From there on there is a contractual quitting peroid, usually between 2 or 3 months for both sides. It enables both sides to be able to prepare for changes when someones leaving a job.
I like it this way. Jobs are more stable that way. Germany has strikt employment laws, which levels tge playing field for employers. Good thing.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The norm in Sweden is 1-3 months.
Goes both ways.
My last working place had 3 months, I gave them 3 months+3 days (well, really just wanted to start the current on a monday).
Heck, even that was a hard time to replace me in (in fact, my boss didn't succeed and the workload had to be spread so I've been consulting for them every now and then to clarify stuff since handover wasn't perfectly handled (the guy I was supposed to give my position with got fired almost instantly since he was a screwup))).
This place has got 1 month, with a progressive scale the longer you work here (up to three months).
Less than a month is only for people paid by hour in one way or another.
I left my consultancy without notice. I was the CTO and a 10% owner. My business partner / CEO suggested halving my pay when I brought in the vast majority of the clients and oversaw 80% of the work and was responsible for quality or saving every project. He expected me to counter? I couldn't work with him anymore though as his business partner.
Still very much love the guy though. Just super misguided strategy on his part.
NOTE: This would have meant my salary was 1/3 of his, instead of merely 2/3.
No, it's companies who do that and don't give you some kind of severance who aren't professional.
The minimum I've ever gotten is the length of notice that is customary for employees to give.
Of course it is. An employee is just that, an employee: one person. A company is many and therefore is more important and its weight society-wise is greater. People need to understand what the patterns of force are. They need to know their place in the greater scheme of things. Besides seeing the whole IT staff being escorted out of the building by security guards, their heads hung low and all their crap in cardboard boxes was the funniest thing in a long time. We even threw spitballs at those neckbearded losers.
:: From Office Space (1999) movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/quotes?item=qt0386876
Bob Slydell: Milton Waddams.
Dom Portwood: Who's he?
Bob Porter: You know, squirrely looking guy, mumbles a lot.
Dom Portwood: Oh, yeah.
Bob Slydell: Yeah, we can't actually find a record of him being a current employee here.
Bob Porter: I looked into it more deeply and I found that apparently what happened is that he was laid off five years ago and no one ever told him about it; but through some kind of glitch in the payroll department, he still gets a paycheck.
Bob Slydell: So we just went ahead and fixed the glitch.
Bill Lumbergh: Great.
Dom Portwood: So, uh, Milton has been let go?
Bob Slydell: Well, just a second there, professor. We, uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it'll just work itself out naturally.
Bob Porter: We always like to avoid confrontation, whenever possible. Problem is solved from your end.
* I actually had a similar experience to Milton a while back, when I worked for a contractor at a major datacenter. After leading the deployment of 20,000 servers, the next phase was from deployment to maintenance, which apparently was at a lower contract charge. So, on Monday they hired a new very junior guy fresh out of high school (he was earning about 1/2 of what my pay was at that time), and on Friday my badge apparently stopped working. My manager let me in thinking it was an issue with the physical security guys (the prior month they did a clean up of building access and messed up access for people. The PM even got trapped in a deep storage room for a few hours with no cell signal, as he could badge into the room, but couldn't badge out). After working on a few tickets for a couple hours, physical security stopped by and let me and my manager know that I didn't work there anymore. He called his boss, who said it was a contracting budget decision. So, yeah, needs to be a 2way street, as I never got my 2 weeks notice from them.
Me too, but I guess that's 'cause the law requires them to around here.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes that would be required as well.
The "greater than" symbol in the subject heading was removed. Criminal law is more important than laws about hiring and firing everywhere. It should be obvious IMHO that in such a situation giving notice is not required so I just do not get why the summary above suggests otherwise. We have not yet gone full libertarian and do not have to obey an employer above a state.
That approach can burn bridges and generate bad references.
That shit isn't illegal in America?
What the fuck?
Here in the modern world, we either get a good reference or no reference at all.
Labelling someone for any reason is an offence, even if it is true. (that includes on places like LinkedIn and Facebook)
You are only allowed to give good points, so, you could just say "well, he wasn't an ass all the time, he showed up to work most days, and barely hit anyone"
Of course, you will still get charged for being a sarcastic dick and trying to bend laws.
Short story:
Don't do it, no matter how crap the company treats you or what justification you may have for doing it. ;-)
The kick you get is temporary, the long term mark on your professional record? Most likely permanent.
Unless you've planned in advance how you'll gloss over this little spot on your resume' of course
Clearly a bright spark. Open the door before you walk out, genius.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Reading through the comments, you'd think Armageddon has hit us. I'd like to post that good companies to work for still exist.
I've been with my company for 16+ years, there have been only 2 firings. One was a guy who was routinely changing performance numbers to make his own performance look good.. he was warned but kept doing it. The other was a guy brought in to help improve our systems and connectivity with the manufacturing side, turns out he had vastly overstated his skills.
There are a number of people in this office that could easily be replaced.. but my company doesn't believe in managing by fear.
Point of my story, don't be a dick and don't stop looking for one of those good companies to work for.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I worked in a company as a programmer where the office was in an awful state, the floor was a dusty concrete surface, there was no space to walk and people were keep leaving stuff randomly around, there was no respect for the working space and the boss wasn't caring too much, on top of it, the company failed and changed name, I have been re-employed , I never saw an updated contract, I kept working and being payed (sometime in time, sometime late) , my schedule were : 3 months doing nothing, 1 week rushing like mad because the management was awful, that did put me in depression, I found a new job, I gave 1 week notice, the boss came to me and he told me "I'm not happy about you leave in one week" and I did answer "life is tough.", during 2 years working there I did everything and even too much and the only thing I asked was a new chair which is never arrived. Trust and respect is not something you can seal with a contract and I didn't care to lose money to prove my point : I'm a person, you are buying my service, not me.
I worked fast food in high school, and apparently there was a rule in our restaurant against having your cell phone out during a shift. No one knew this because it was never enforced and people were on their phones constantly (not talking, just texting and what not during down times). I pulled out my phone to read a text from my mom (actually, her phone had gotten a virus or something, and that text was a picture of a gummy bear with a penis) and my manager asks, "Oh can I see that?" and just takes my phone and puts it in the office. I thought he was joking at first because it seemed so ridiculous. Our "team leader" tried to convince him to give it back but he wouldn't do it, finally I just told him he could either give me my phone or I could quit and he'd have to, he chose the latter option. It felt fantastic, to be honest, and I heard later that the manager felt like an idiot for being responsible for me quitting.
P.S. There are a few comments itt suggesting that doing this could put a "black mark" on your resume forever. Be aware of your company's reference policy. Both there and my current employer, which are vastly different places, prevent managers from providing any official reference other than confirmation of start and end sates of employment.
hi
Employment is a contract you consented to. It defines a set of rules you need to abide to, otherwise you have a breach of contract.
Breaching a contract is a bad idea, and exposes you to being sued and having to pay ccompensation.
WOW, it is really like this??? I've owned 3 little firms with a total of 10 to 20 employees each.
Fired about 3 people, I've always told everyone 2 weeks in advance, with 2 weeks of pay extra
when leaving. Has anyone ( whom won't post as an A/C ) ever been walked out the door with security?
Never seen it in my 35 years of working. Even on Wall street, people don't get escorted unless it's
fraud related.
if you see me, smile and say hello.
A useful rule of thumb... if you quit without notice and HR are the only ones who seem to care, then you probably did the right thing.
Log in or piss off.
Depends on the situation. As always it depends on both sides. In Belgium the standard is 6 weeks for the emplyee and 3 months for the empleroyer. In once case an emplyee came to us and we talked and we decided to end the contract right at that moment. So no notice at all.
In Belgium you do notice because it is the law. If you want something different, you have to talk together and find a solution like adults and I have never seen where not some sort of solution could be found if both parties were reasonable.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
...I was once told to do something unsafe "or don't come back tomorrow". I didn't come back. They were surprised and finally started calling looking for me a few days later. I did exactly what they requested and didn't give notice, not sure why they were surprised?
In past jobs, I tried to work with my boss to agree to a notice period that provided them the time they needed to replace me and not affect the business. Usually that was about a month. However, both times I did that they squandered the time, did nothing really productive to get a replacement in place for me to train, and were still scrambling to figure out what to do when I did finally leave. One employer even asked me to keep my departure hush-hush until they were ready to announce it... which they did the afternoon of my last day.
My last job change I gave just 2 weeks, no negotiation. It forced their hand to actually address the issue and get something done. In the end, it was actually a smoother departure than the others where I gave double the notice.
(Yes, I've been around a long time...)
I was working for a government help desk and it was revealed to us that our contract was ending. Well, the point of giving notice is to give the company an opportunity to hire and train your replacement. There were no replacements coming so I just decided to give a 1 day notice. I can no longer work for that company due to my exit strategy however the company itself is currently not projected to last another 3 years on it's current trajectory so I felt that this was not a particularly valuable bridge to maintain.
Simply put, if the employer is more likely to make your two week exit period a living hell, or the maximum inconvenience they can possibly engage in, then you are by far best served with a no-notice exit strategy.
Personally, it's not about sticking it to them, so much as avoiding them sticking it to you!
Most of the time, places will likely drop you like a hot rock the moment you give notice so they don't have someone around that can poison other employee's opinions about them and get them to quit as well, thus minimizing their losses by paying you off rather than "working you out the door".
Not true, I want any employee above entry level to be a responsible person who gave courtesy to their previous employer. Actually I have turned down an applicant who stated that they didn't feel the need to give notice when leaving. They viewed it as a perk that they were available immediately, I viewed it as setting ourselves up for her to do the same to us in the future.
HR can state whether someone is rehireable or not. If they say no because someone didn't turn in notice, it leaves the new employer left to wonder WHY and might assume something far worse than lack of notice.
nice double standard you have there, Basically all technology company layoffs in the last decade are allowed to uphold professional decor while they perp walk people from the building on a friday afternoon with no notice? what a tool.
It isn't equivalent because professional companies typically give you severance when you quit. Meaning they pay you not to come to work. A worker who quits suddenly doesn't do that. Be professional.
I've seen it happen.
"She said, 'I've been watching 'Suits,' and this is how it happens,'"
Wow, modeling your actions in the real world based on the actions of a fictional TV show. Can't say if I was an employer I'd be too sad to see a gem like that go.
Out of over a dozen jobs I've held there was only one where I would have gladly given a 1 month notice. That employer had solid benefits including bi-annual profit sharing and made a good effort to train and promote within the organization. They routinely held company outings, paid for travel expenses without any hassle, and provided financial assistance for me to relocate to another office halfway across the country. Loved them dearly and was sad to see them get bought out by a larger evil corporation that outsourced their entire IT department to India. I made some decent money as an independent contractor taking care of call backs to fix what the Indians kept breaking.
On the other hand, most jobs I would have quit without remorse if the manager had given me any sh!t. The way I saw it, employment-at-will is only acceptable if the ax swings both ways. Employers must encounter the pain of an employee quitting on the spot if they expect to have the right to fire on the spot. I've quit by simply leaving a post-it and my office key on a manager's desk while they were away on one of their 3 hour lunches.
My last contract gig I received no notice, simply got called into an office for a conference call with the local department manager who was halfway across the country and advised me I needed to leave on the spot. They didn't bother to have anyone from security present which I thought was rather dangerous for them if they had attempted to do that to someone less civilized than myself. The on-site department supervisor was at least shocked and ashamed of her boss to the extent that she told me to take as long as I needed to gather my belongings. Most companies I have worked for or contracted at will give a one week notice. Never have I received a two week notice.
-==- Buy a Mac and leave me alone!
I've been working in IT 27 years mostly in large corporation environments and have never been asked to sign an employment contract. Further "At will employment" laws generally say that either party may terminate the employment relationship for any (or no) reason without notice unless other terms are negotiated and agreed to, presumably with a contract to back that up. Even if I disliked the company I would still give notice simply as a courtesy, to allow time to transfer anything I had in progress to another person.
I've also never been perp walked to the door by security or let go at 4:45 on Friday. The one time I was RIF'ed I was told I could go back and say my goodbye's to the team, no escort etc.
That is not to say that if the work environment was toxic or if I thought an actual crime was being committed I wouldn't, but I have never had that happen.
For example if you order me to commit a crime, I quit on the spot.
Employers routinely fire people on the spot without notice, so employees can do the same.
Is it rude? Yes. Does it burn bridges? But sometimes you NEED to be rude and NEED to burn bridges.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
The point made was that "professional" is a social contract. Part of that contract includes employers that give a damn about their employees and project futures further than the next quarter. They treat them professionally like civilized human beings and give them some notice if they need to be concerned about their current income, just as a business wants notice to fulfill a function so they can continue to operate with a positive revenue stream.
When an employer is able to redefine "professional" by introducing all sorts of new shady practices, they break their social contract and as a result, employees should be able to as well.
There is no need to give 2 weeks notice and I have had clients who have gave no notice. The only reasons to give 2 weeks notice are if you wish to leave on a good foot and to allow a little time to transitioning or "brain dump". That and it's tradition, but there's no requirement
I've been walked out twice. Both of them were layoffs and everyone was walked out. I didn't have any personnel issues and neither did most the other people. So I can't say it was just me; it was just policy.
Now I know people who worked for dotcom startups that quit and left the same day. Most of them did it because their paychecks bounced. They figured they were never going to get the money anyways.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Yes
Glassdoor should be like this, but it's more like a random bitchfest.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
When your paycheck bounces, it's time to walk out a server or two. Not just quit.
First machine to go should be the one that's recording the security cameras.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
without notice. Then, yeah.
Both things have happened to me in my lifetime. I had an employer who just stopped paying for health insurance, telling no employees. We found out when someone made a claim. The owner, unsurprisingly, was infuriated at the employee who outed him. FYI, I found out later that my tax withholding somehow never happened and eventually they just stopped paying us, allowing us to work a few extra weeks, unpaid.
Good times. Owner was never charged with anything and never went to jail. Welcome to American capitalism.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Having never been fired before, I don't have a lot of first hand experience, but I have been associated with a number of people that got fired. I have NEVER seen or heard of anybody that was fired abruptly without cause. (Turning tables over and yelling profanities is definitely cause, I've seen that a few times.) Even in right to work states, an employer will build a case against you, and you will be aware of that case being built. I've worked for a number of companies, every one of them had a similar "three strikes" policy. Verbal warning (that is documented, and signed by you), written warning (also signed by you), and then they show you the door.
3 months is the standard notice time for a developer (and for most qualified jobs) in France. This is written in your contract when you get a job. This is both ways: when you leave or when you are fired.
So leaving without notice time (or with a shorter time) is something you have to negociate.
I usually give a couple weeks notice, I've occasionally gotten counter-offers but never accepted. When asked I have given feedback. For a couple of companies where I truly loved working for I gave them as much notice as possible and turned over 100% of what I knew. I couldn't give them my experience but I did give them knowledge. At one company I was contracting for, by doing this I amazed my boss at how much information I had collected over the years. She did try to arrange my employment either as a direct hire or another contract house (with the company absorbing the penalty) but neither could come close to match the learning opportunity that I was being given. If either of those places had an opening that would support what I need to make I would go back in a hearbeat, and I know they would love to have me. I do love the company that I work for now (I might be a contractor but the company I am at now treats us as employees).
How about some details? Was this person sitting calmly at their desk, diligently working, or were they in the boss' face using a bouquet of four letter words when they were escorted out? I've personally never seen or heard of the first one happening, I've seen the latter happening a few times.
I never QUIT. I FIRE my employer. Walk into the office and say, "You're Fired!". Not, "I Quit!"
I for one, am sick of the double standard. Employees are expected to be professional and give two week's notice, however employers are not held to the same standard of professionalism. Whenever it is feasible and possible, I'll give two week's notice but I don't have qualms about leaving with less notice. Anyone defending this double standard is either an employer or an employee that has been so utterly brainwashed by corporate America that he or she will literally lick their boots.
Do employers give 2 weeks notice on a layoff? Or do the "affected" employees get a debriefing meeting and same time to gather their things before exiting the building that same day?
At some places today, if you give your 2 weeks notice, it very quickly turns into the above, and you end up going home same day at the employer's preference.
I think that if you are the employee wanting to leave, it really depends on your reasons and your relationship with the employer. If you're all on good terms with each other and in the middle of something, that it can be a polite thing to offer to stay on for a bit so they have some notice, but accept the possibility of being walked out anyway. If it's a difficult situation, then you can do so, but be prepared to be walked out.
This example sounds so ridiculous that I question its authenticity, but I think the alleged employee was very right to walk out right then.
http://www.askamanager.org/201...
Small wonder you can only get shitty employees. You're a shitty employer. ...
Fixed it for you!
I've never heard of a place that fires somebody and then lets them work there for 2 more weeks. That's insane. It is common to fire somebody, and then pay them some kind of severance, to smooth over hard feelings. It is also common when somebody gives their 2 week notice, to send them home immediately and pay them for those two weeks, unless their knowledge is critical for training coworkers who will take over their duties.
Whether them leaving is the employee choice, or the employers, there is risk in having somebody around who has, at best, little motivation to work, and could be toxic to other employees, or at worst, could be motivated to harm the company / exacting revenge on other employees etc. When somebody is fired, in my experience they are generally given a token escort out by HR.
It does happen. Happened to me, too, but not out of spite but more because my boss and me did actually part on good terms. It meant 2 weeks additional paid vacation for me and full plausible deniability should anything bad happen because I could not have done it, since I was not there anymore.
Being hovered over by security while you pack is not necessarily a bad thing. I do enjoy having a witness when it comes to proving that I am not a disgruntled ex-employee.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You are owed nothing from your employer beyond the paycheck you agreed to work for. You owe the company nothing beyond the full effort required for the job you're paid to do. If you leave, they don't owe you anything but pay for the time you did work. If they fire you, you don't owe them anything. It is that simple. You work for a paycheck, they hire you for your work. It's a simple agreement between two parties, no different than you going to the grocery to buy bread.
They were called into the bosses office from working calmly - told they were terminated - at that point security (which was aware and waiting prior) showed up. After that they were escorted back to their desk to collect things - at that point they started crying - this was a guy for what that is worth - pretty emotional. The guard stood outside until he was done and then walked him out the building. Unsure why security was involved - I've seen everything from extended 2 month notices to 'never showed up' to this perp walk out the door. I'd say 90% of the time it's a usual notice - of the 10% not many get the 'walk' - although I've been told there are some positions that are deemed especially sensitive where any notice results in instant termination along with revocation of security clearance and access - these are higher up the food chain.
For me it was "you told me you are pondering to quit, here's the deal: I have to lay someone off, and if you agree, it's gonna be you, 2 additional weeks of paid vacation, starting NOW, and the job reference will read "left the company of his own accord and to our greatest regret". What do you say?"
It was less kicking and screaming, more trying hard to keep dignity while skipping down the corridor...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Because 90% of the time, when an employee gives two weeks notice, they are sent home that very day. The result is often the loss of 2 weeks of income for the employee. Few employers offer any severance in such situations. So basically, the hostile nature of employers is teaching workers that it is against their interests to provide 2 weeks of notice.
That's what they used to do. Except, employers these days pretty much universally let you go if you give 2 weeks notice. It is the companies that are not being professional and creating this new deviance from the past norm.
Balogne....I work at one of the largest IT corporations in the world. If they let you go, and not for any fraud. You are told to gather your stuff and walked out the door.
^^^ YUP
give two weeks notice that they are going to fire someone? Fucking never!
While at my last job, I got an offer for something better in a new state. So I told the new company I'd need a month; two weeks for the current job then two more weeks to relocate. They agreed so I turned in my two-week notice. However it just so happened that I had to give the notice on the Friday just before the company shuts down for a week for Xmas/New Year's holiday.
Some give severance when they lay off workers. Very few give any when you quit. Give your two weeks notice, you'll be out the door that same day.
And that is for 90% of businesses today.
They don't care if they burn out, destroy moral, etc. They'll just import more H1B Visas.
You print out a two copies of your notice. You sign it, you have them sign it. And you leave.
If they list your as terminated for abandoning. You sue them for slander and libel. And since you have a signed receipt of your notice to quit. They will be in a fair bit of trouble. Because if they have told any other potential employers that you were terminated when you in fact quit. And you did not receive the job. You can claim that financial harm....and sue for that income.
Walk out without notice and you declare "I am not a professional."
... but your employer terminating you without notice is considered "professional" and "appropriate."
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Very few
It's because we witness it the majority of the time.
How is a verbal warning signed exactly?
Few managers do their jobs right.
My company which is employee owned (but I have no say in the company, nor know how much of it I supposedly own) just recently notified us by HR that they modified the employee handbook to include language that it is expected that an employee will give two weeks notice before leaving although their part of the deal is at-will.
The original owners are still around but get some of our money being on the board of directors for which there is no employee representation considering we are employee owned. Only the original 20 people (not all are on the board, about 5) make all the decisions, and we as employees have no say.
For some reason, Salary now means that employers can demand you work without pay. But you're not allowed to adjust your hours at all.
It's a one-sided law/policy that offers ZERO benefit to workers now.
My current position started out as a short contract job. When I took it, I had high hopes of it becoming permanent, but there certainly wasn't anything definite over where a permanent position would be open. Instead of quitting my old position, I took some of the 6+ weeks holidays I had banked up. This also meant I was still getting medical (which the contractor didn't give me), and if I didn't feel like things were working out I could go back.
I told my old boss and some co-workers in my department what was going on. I *didn't* tell HR. Near the end of my leave, it looked like chances of getting a permanent position at the new company was good, so I told my boss I wouldn't be coming back after holidays. I did offer to do some remote work in my free hours if they needed help, or to answer questions via email etc for free for the next while. They'd already known what was up, so they'd talked to some local talent and prepared for my departure. Thus they had somebody in mind already who filled my position after I left, and neither of us were worse for the wear.
So how does the new firm know that you were "unprofessional" in the timing of your departure?
That's an easy one. They ask if you're eligible to be rehired.
If you've done something bad or pissed off your management, the answer will be "no".
Since the company isn't disclosing any personal information or making any allegations regarding your conduct, there is nothing they can be sued over.
This is a fairly standard practice in corporate HR.
If you worked for a large business, you could probably dream up a not-entirely-terrible explanation since you know they will not provide any other details. It will still be a mark against, but you can mitigate it quite a bit.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Any company in TX can fire you with no warning or explanation. The same law says that if an employee is absent for 3 days and hasn't called in (a No-Call-No-Show) they are auto-fired. If this law sounds decidedly pro-corporate to you, then don't be upset when a small percentage of employees exploit this rule to exact a small amount of revenge on their employer. I know several people who have walked out of a job at lunch time and never went back. I had a job where I gave 2 weeks notice and they told me I was lucky they didn't have security escort me out on the spot, as was their right under the law here.
I have 3 month notice period. If employers want notice from employees has to be bilateral.
But on side note irrespective of notice period be 1 day or 3 months always do a clean handover if you expect to encounter your Co workers in other jobs.
Don't burn bridges
At a decently run company, getting fired is never a surprise. So yeah, that is unprofessional.
And the company being unprofessional doesn't make it acceptable for you to be as well. Again, you're just telling future (not) employers that you're not a professional.
Actually it's been a 2 way street. I've had some do the 445 treatment and I've done the not go back because it was a shitty company and found a better one. New company says "can you start tomorrow", I'm not going to say sorry must wait 2 weeks and stick around shitty previous company. I have given the 2 weeks notice before, I've found the company treats you differently once they know you're leaving. Like they lost their leverage against you.
Worth every penny you pay for it. Which is nothing.
Generally, in ink.
From pampered socialist Europe - as an full time salaried employee I have mandatory for both sides "notice period" 1-3 months depending on how long I was employed at this place. It can be shorter if both parties will agree to this.
Even if there would be no such mandatory period I would stick to golden rule "do unto others ..." - if my contract/agreement has 2 weeks notice from employer - I would stick to that period if I want to resign.
If it is fixed term contract/employment - and there is not extension signed before it expires on last day at 3PM I am packed and ready to leave - sometimes with new contract somewhere else signed starting next day. What a surprise it was at one time that I am not available for extension (because I was pissed off that nobody said in advance that there will be extension or not) and knowledge transfer - I have mouths to feed and cannot afford waiting to the last day.
I would not recommend "just leaving" in any situation - depending on local law it could make you vulnerable when employer will sue for "damages" ... ... ... :-D
or not returned equipment
Get confirmation, that you returned what is "theirs", get your documents from HR say goodbye to the receptionist
You never know when next opportunity will call
I know mythical situation when disgruntled (because of manager) programmer left. Three month later he was sitting at the manager desk.
At a decently run company, getting fired is never a surprise. So yeah, that is unprofessional.
Right. It shouldn't be a surprise. Most HR departments document firings by putting employees through performance improvement plans. Odds are if you get one, they want to fire you. It's basically your employer giving you notice, and it's often more than two weeks. If you work at a large company that fires people randomly out of the blue for "performance reasons", they're probably going to be sued.
I have always given notice, and in two instances, (Brandeis University and a retirement home I worked at in the 80's) been convinced to stay on an extra two weeks, only to THEN be burned by those employers. That said, how is it businesses can reasonably expect any notice at all when they will fire you at will with no notice whatsoever? I mean, some businesses have a heart, when Lockheed Martin let me go with no notice, after having told me my job was secure just two months prior, the manager 'felt bad' so gave me 6 weeks severance pay (unwarranted, I had been there less than a year)... but in general if they reserve the right to say GTFO to you, then you have the right to just say, "I quit." and walk out the door and they should feel nothing. This is business. Not a love affair. I am sick and tired of hearing how you, the employee, should be 'loyal' to your employer when they are mostly sharks waiting to ditch you to save a nickel.
My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
So how does the new firm know that you were "unprofessional" in the timing of your departure?
That's an easy one. They ask if you're eligible to be rehired.
If you've done something bad or pissed off your management, the answer will be "no".
Since the company isn't disclosing any personal information or making any allegations regarding your conduct, there is nothing they can be sued over.
This is a fairly standard practice in corporate HR.
If you worked for a large business, you could probably dream up a not-entirely-terrible explanation since you know they will not provide any other details. It will still be a mark against, but you can mitigate it quite a bit.
I'm sure it varies by company, but you usually have to do more than just piss off management to be ineligible for rehire. Usually it's things like quitting without notice, stealing, etc.
Don't wait until after you've left. Don't rely on Personnel or your boss. Get some company letterhead and envelopes, find a trusted coworker and write each other undated Letters of Recommendation. Don't exaggerate, and write in generalities - reliable, conscientious, hard-working, etc.. Be brief.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I've worked for several different companies and have quit several jobs, I have given up to 4 weeks notice and I have quit on the spot. It depends on the situation one company would close entire locations and give thousands of people zero notice. I quit that job with no notice, once I had a job offer but they wanted me to start imminently (that's generally a bad sign) it was a pretty big pay hike so I quit without notice. Where I work now they get butthurt when you quit, even though there is little room for advancement, so I wouldn't give them anymore notice then I wanted to be off, if I decided to go elsewhere.
Once, after a layoff.
I worked at a call center for Sears, and one day about 20 guys in suits walked in and the place fell silent. We all worked in a big "pit" so everyone could see.
All of us who were part of the first round of layoffs were escorted to a room, processed and handed a check and shown the door. It was a "hotseat" arrangement, so I had no personal effects except what was on my person.
A female friend mentioned they laid off all the guys who were not managers, and anyone else who was considered a "troublemaker" and we were given a severance check.
Everyone else spent two weeks boxing up files to be sent to the new call center in Idaho.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
My former employer sent the HR rep over at 3pm on a Tuesday with my supervisor and terminated my employment without cause, or notice. I found that it was in lieu of layoff. As the company had been paying severance in prior layoffs I could have made a case in court, so about 26 of us ended up Right to Worked one afternoon.
Actually, they cannot. Only the Law, which is decided by everyone, can change that. If there is no mutual agreement then fuck the signs.
Right now the culture is a double standard. Companies expect notice commitment and integrity but yet will lay you, your team, your whole division off without even letting you back to your desk to pickup your things. It should be clear that most bigger companies are run by short term oriented people who have more reason to plunder their company than to help its employees. underlying corruption and cronyism at the executive and director levels has been decimating the work atmosphere for everyone else. Quitting without notice is one of our last line of things we can do to demonstrate refusal to put up with it.
Yes, it is this way. In most corporate environments this is standard procedure. Unless they are mad at you the escort is normally your supervisor or what have you not security. And usually they will tell you at the end of the day or before you start your day. This way an employee has no opportunity to steal company property, sabotage systems, etc.
Things are generally very different in an environment with 20 people. When I've worked in small environments two weeks notice was never an issue and leaving was treated with dignity and discretion. Although not severance, most small businesses couldn't afford severance. When people are talking about corporations and profit machines they aren't talking about incorporated small organizations. Large organizations including publicly traded are a different animal and it isn't the same problem scaled they enjoy efficiency of scale that allows for larger cash flow and substantially greater profit and can/should be passing the benefits on to their staff. Small business on the other hand has to try to compete with those advantages and trying to do so actually just makes it even more difficult for them... which of course just gives that much more benefit to the large entities.
I've been "terminated" (without cause) from about half the jobs I've worked and I've never been given any notice. Faceless bean counters make decisions without regards to the consequences of their decisions. Security best practices never allow for an employee to know that they are getting terminated ahead of time. One place I worked at, Andrew Corporation, had my personal items boxed up over the weekend so when I came in Monday morning, they were all ready to walk me out. If you do leave and give notice, never tell your former employer about your new job. I worked at Platinum DB for four years, decided it was time to move on and took a job. Platinum DB contacted my new employer and made a lot of baseless accusations that sabotaged my new job completely. So word to the wise, never update your "linked-in" right away with your job information. With that, no one can ever say it is "professional" to give two weeks notice and do so with a straight face. Your individual relationships and contacts are much more important than your relationship with any one company, that's where you get your references for future jobs. If companies were loyal, you wouldn't see so many H1B visas getting trained as cheap labor replacements. I've kept myself relevant so I've always been able to find work, but IT wages are dropping because of H1B visas. Like my title says, there is no such thing as company loyalty anymore, almost all companies could care less.
I was working at a large investment bank dong electronic trading support and stayed on about two years too long. Things were great for the first few years; learning about credit and rate trading, learning how products like credit default swaps and interest rate swaps work, etc. Then the mortgage meltdown happened and things started going south.
Over the next few years staff was reduced to the point that members of my team were now covering both first and second shift. We had a rotating weekend schedule where we would either shut the environments down on Saturday, or perform a software release, and then we brought the systems back up on Sunday morning and then covered the beginning of Asia's trading. We used to get time off the following week, but because of the staffing situation that went away. When I asked about overtime I was told that I was classified as an exempt worker, which I later found out was not true. So I went from working a standard 40 hour week to working 40 hours each week plus two weekends of 10 to 20 hours of work each month; about 200 hours.
I finally was fed up enough to contact my recruiter and got an interview with a tech startup. Things went well and I was just waiting for the Board to approve the role. My plan was to take a week off work, go to Las Vegas for a few days, then put in my two weeks notice the following Monday. Unfortunately the Board took a couple more weeks before they signed off, so I was getting up every morning and signing a new resignation letter that I then carried around while waiting for the phone call. That was was pretty hard to do since I wanted nothing to do with the place and I kept thinking to myself that I should just leave, but I stuck it out.
So I'm finally out and getting up to speed in my new position. Then I get a letter in the mail from my former employer about applying for COBRA health insurance. It turns out that they had cancelled my insurance coverage two days after I left instead of deducting the premium for the rest of the month from my final paycheck and then waited weeks before letting me know. Thank goodness I didn't need it! I received another letter a week or so later saying they accidentally overpaid me on my final paycheck and would I please send them a check for the difference. Ha! At around the same time I had been doing some research about the laws regarding overtime and who qualifies as exempt. It turns out that they lied to me when they said I was exempt and they probably owed me ten or fifteen thousand dollars of overtime. I keep a work log of my hours and the tasks I do each day, so I had the records I needed. I was so fed up with them at that point that I just let it go rather than contact an attorney, I didn't need the stress.
In hindsight I really wish I would have just handed in my resignation letter and walked out the door. They were totally incompetent and I absolutely hated going to work every one of those last ten days. People always say not to burn bridges, but there was no way I would ever apply for a position with that company again so I do somewhat regret not giving myself some additional time off before starting the new job.
The ONE time I didn't give notice was a company that tried to pull some shady stuff and involve me in it. If a company tries anything illegal you shouldn't be made to feel you owe them, or any delusion of "professionalism" a thing.
that's all they get. They don't get "which party terminated the relationship" or "rate of pay". I answered those phone calls in an HR office for a decade, and pay rates and reason for leaving is all that was ever provided due to legal stuff.
Told my boss he was MIA on the second day of absence. Turned out he died in his hotel room.
Linkedin still tells me he is someone I should connect with.
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
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BT
dates of employment and job title was all they got.
dang, I need new hands . . .
My last employer gave almost every employee they ever let go plenty of time to find new jobs. I likely would've given two weeks anyway but the fact that they gave everyone who didn't royally screw up time to find a new job definitely factored in.
A courteous employer, that cashes out unused Time off, provides severance when laying off employees, even gives a heads up that layoffs might come in bad times, deserves an effort on your part to minimize the impact of your departure. An employer who doesn't pay out all of the left over vacation time, or lays folks off without severance, or is abusive, you can still be the bigger person, but it's not necessary.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
I have had only one in the last 20 years give me any notice the job was ending. For the record, I've never quit.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The blade cuts both ways . . . and based on the way the world actually is, the answer is a resounding "YES"! Done it myself a few times - employer dishonesty being the primary cause (like employees, employers can be shiesty).
so, that time when a coworker (ex-con) got angry and pulled a knife and started threatening everyone in the cube farm, I went to the boss and said, "this has to stop!" his answer was to say that he had no control over whether that guy brought a knife to work or not, I should just 'keep my head down.'... when I walked out then, I was 'unprofessional' in your eyes. Cops, when called, showed up three hours later, could find no one to admit to seeing the knife... and no knife on the perp. Good, I am glad to be that unprofessional.
My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
If it's OK for an employer to lay someone off without 2 weeks notice, then it is automatically OK for that same person to leave (If they want) without 2 weeks notice.
If you are an employer and want notice from your employees, then sign a mutually-beneficial agreement that works both ways.
Do you think every time I was laid off, the company was an asshole? Because that is how it has always happened to me.
My last employer expected 4 weeks of notice for leaving. I thought that was unreasonable so I gave them 2 weeks, and after 7 years of employment they let me go the next day. Quite the double standard, huh?
Summer of 2009. A Defense contractor in Sterling Heights, MI. They hired outside security to come in and escort people out (govt contracts got cut/canceled) I saw it first hand. I left on my own a few weeks later. 750 people were walked out the door the first week of "layoffs" without any prior notice. It happens, i lived it.
#include bier;
BTW, a couple of people freaked the f out..screaming and yelling, throwing stuff, etc. A couple of people collapsed and needed medical attention....as you can imagine the work environment was a mess for weeks after. I think around 1600 of the 3500 employees got walked out withing a month. Those who could left on their own within a few months. Hard to focus when the ax is over anybody's/everybodys head...
#include bier;
That's a lovely pretend wonderland you live in, there.
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/07/my-best-employee-quit-on-the-spot-because-i-wouldnt-let-her-go-to-her-college-graduation.html
If you reward your hardest working employees by fucking them over at every turn ("My go-to for weekends and holidays!") then it's little surprise when your best employees leave.
She wasn't a shitty worker. She was an abused one.
Yes, frequently at Microsoft.
It is legal for a company to offer some advantages to giving notice rather than quitting on the spot.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
For example, if you explicitly tell your employer that there is a job you don't want to do and at some point they assign you to do that job, you are justified in quitting on the spot.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
And that is why I had the best teams around, I hired people whom I could trust, and when the shit hit the fan, they still could be trusted. I happen to agree with you that what I did might be wrong in the future. But the past has proven right. I'm still friends with all my old employees, even the fired ones ( one whom happens to be my best friend and still calls me boss )
if you see me, smile and say hello.
In Sweden, the employer must give you one month notice, and if you quit, you must give the employer one month notice. Refusal to work during this time is breach of contract. When you have been employed for a year or more, this time is extended to 2 or 3 months. Some contracts can even require the employer to give you 6 months notice if you worked for several years, but when you quit, it often doesn't exceed 3 months.
Does the employer pay severance when they terminate an employee? For how long? I've worked for firms that gave a week of severance for every year of seniority -- and the troops returned the favor with a week of notice for each week of severance.
I've also worked for places where they came up to you at your desk at 14:30 and handed you your final pay calculated to 14:30 of that day. Sometimes people just didn't come back from lunch, and none of us were surprised.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
that is terrific, wonderful, fantastic. Very well done on all counts!
Wouldn't two weeks of severance pay be roughly equal to two weeks' notice? The deal here is that I do stuff and they give me money and other bennies for it. I can't do the stuff if I'm not here, but I can get the money and bennies even when I'm not.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Just a question on the following statement: "Small wonder you can only get shitty jobs. You're a shitty employee." Do you actually know the poster you we're responding to can "only get shitty jobs" or were you just speaking out of your ass?
now you tell me. Same thing happened to me. long time in the job, always excellent reviews, not more than a week after my last stellar review came . . the phone call. You're out. No longer have a job for you. Sign this if you want you severance. The only thing I can think of is that 1.) I had been out on medical leave for 6 weeks in the past year (the one and ONLY time EVER in my working career) 2.) I had put in a claim for STD to keep getting paid while I was out 3.) I was 53 years old at the time. I wasn't even on their medical insurance, I had my spouse's. Still puzzling over that one after a year an a half.
I have no qualms about naming the company: ORACLE. Not only sleazy to customers, but horrid to their employees as well (there's a tag line for ya!)
I know you are correct, but I have decided to hear it as "I could care less (but that wouldn't be worth the effort)".
Alternately: "It might surprise you to know, seeing how little I care, that I could care less than I appear to, but it would take quantum observation to discriminate between how much I care and the theoretical zero point."
So it's wrong but it's not wrong-wrong.
This is hand-in-hand with "It's not 'apathy' per se, I just don't think I care."
In english the ironic is normative. 8-)
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
Screw 'em. Your life is more important than their legal entity
I've quit without notice twice. In both cases the employers were maliciously incompetent--I was sure I wanted to burn the bridge, sink the boats, and raze the village. The last thing I wanted was a good reference from these people. In both cases, the companies went out of business--shocker.
In other cases I've given a month+ notice because I worked for great people and cool companies, I just had found a better opportunity.
ralphbarbagallo.com
I have used this A LOT when hiring someone new... I ask manager references: "how would you feel about employing this person again?".
Speaks volumes...
I've seen the whole spectrum. One guy gave a years notice. I've seen a guy that relocated himself across the country and told us almost a week later he quit the week before. Yes, thanks for telling us. We all wondered if he was murdered, taken by the Govt or something.
The whole thing is, do you need that employer for a favorable recommendation? If you already have another job, not so much. However don't be a jackass. Don't leave people that are depending on you holding a bag. Just as you wouldn't want some else to just evaporate and leave you holding the bag. You never know when someone you screwed has a say in your future.
Just be respectful. Don't screw others.
I have seen a guy simply walk out due to a big disagreement with management. He was promised stuff and they told him to pound sand. He said - ok... here's my badge, pass, keys, see ya! Just send me my last check.
...Yes. Do you get two weeks notice when they fire you? No. Nuff said. All you other guys can say it's not professional, but you have to look out for yourself and your family first.
Companies like to hire contractors so they can let them go without notice. Those companies should expect the same in return.
Some employers want you out as soon as you indicate you're leaving, so you might think you're leaving in two weeks, but you're actually leaving right now, as soon as they take your badge and escort you out.
I have seen it a number of times when they are going to a competitor, but with 2 weeks pay plus accrued vacation of course.
In most cases you probably got 2 weeks pay in lieu of notice, perhaps even 60 days if the WARN Act was triggered.
I wasn't aware the WARN act covered non-union salaried employees. Only twice have I ever got severance pay at all, and in one of those cases, it was the one where I had a full month's warning.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.