Slashdot Mirror
Senator Seeks Injuction Against WinXP
Hiro_Later writes "Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee has asked state prosecutors to seek an injunction blocking the launch of Windows XP. His reasoning? "Without 'significant changes,' new technologies might never get the opportunity to compete." Microsoft of course disagrees arguing instead that XP will bring more choices and content to consumers not less. What I find interesting is Schumer was formerly a skeptic of the government's antitrust case against Microsoft, perhaps he has seen the light. Judge for yourselves here." Update: 07/25 01:41 AM by H :So, based on the e-mail I've been getting, evidently people have forgotten that what submittors type is in italics. Like this. Notice how when I type here that is in normal type - if you've got other questions, please check out the FAQ. There's lots of fun information in there. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
in Windows XP RC1, I get a popup when I insert a CD asking me what media player I want to use. Same thing for cameras. More choice- no more players like Musicmatch slamming me into using their player to listen to my music. Hello? Anyone smell AOL lobbying here?
What a thoughtful, reasoned response. Look, shithead, if you don't like what the guy's doing, >change the channel. One thing that's apparently passed by your limited point of view is the fact that most IT professionals, at one time or another, will end up in front of a screen with XP on the other side, so it's in our common interest to see things done better than they have been. Not to mention the fact that the rotten M$ business practices are endangering the industry, and thus our jobs. But you're obviously too lobotomized to notice.
Yes but there was no company making themes for linux before they were introduced. Stardock makes it's living off of theme managers for windows. So when you say "who gives a shit?" it's a safe bet that Stardock does. That's just one company that stands to lose from XP's realease, I haven't tried XP and I doubt I ever will but, I am more than sure there are several other companies biting their fingernails right now over this.
The WinXP code is not yet ready for prime time. Microsoft wants the government to delay the release, so for once they'll have somebody else to blame for their slipped schedules!
It comes with DVD Authoring Software, CD buring software, mp3 making/listening software, and more!
*gasp*
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib/N00 001093.htm
As it says... Schumer is one of the worst senators in Congress. He's a hate monger and is one of the major reasons why Bush wants to "change the tone" in DC. Schumer is a Liberal attack dog that hates guns, hates corporations and like most liberals hates in when people prosper.
On the unrelated sidenote, I await with interest the first Linux desktop which doesn't clone that "unintuitive" explorer and start menu. Until that happens, Linux will not get any easier either :-) It's a shame the Linux desktops are waiting for Microsoft for inspiration.
He's right, I'm beta testing XP right now, and it's everything 2000 was and more, it's actually nice to look at.
Terminal services are built in! (remote desktop)
Movie Maker has returned from WinMe to XP
NetBEUI is dead in XP, but it's still in the 'legacy support' folder on the CD.
Speech Recognition (it works too), plus Windows can read to you.
you can even "draw" on the screen (like a palm pilot)
Faxing has been put back in (after being taken out since Win95)
And finally! They've put "TAB" command line completion in the console!!!
( ie: >CD c:\wi<tab> becomes cd:\windows)
Works like a dream on a laptop, has ClearType built-in. All the power management functions work like they're supposed to.
What impressed me the most was how they made it easier to customise the GUI/UI, something I previously had to hack into the desktop with shell replacements.
To hell with that senator, XP rocks! Windows 2000 and XP are the ONLY 2 microsoft products I'm a fan of, 95/98/ME are all unstable crap.
If I were Bill Gates, I'd just say "fine, No More Windows. I'm retiring." and burn the source. Lets see how popular this senator would be then.
If you dont have XP yet, get the RC1 release, it cost me a whopping $15 from microsoft's beta registration site, and you get RC2 when it comes out too.
Actually the check did come in. Only it was $52,000 from [now AOL] Time Warner.
As I sit here and read most of this, I am stunned at the complete lack of care or thought for the impact of what you are all suggesting. Do you not understand the implications?
So, because MSFT sold a piece of SW they will not support, everything should be released under the GPL if it's "old". Well, shoot, then every product ever released in the history of the world should be required to be released under the GPL.
Hey, even if it's not technology it should apply. Shoot, every restaurant I walk into should have the recipe, with full preparation instructions, for EVERY single dish they offer, posted right in the lobby. Coca Cola should provide complete preparation instructions so I can make my own coke products how I want them - just ingredients isn't enough.
I'm sure you have some reason to claim it's not the same, but it is. You are saying there should be no privately owned information. Fine, stop buying anything from anywhere you didn't get complete specifications, instructions, and tools from today. I'm sure you'll save a lot of money to spend on nothing.
What you fail to realize, is that MSFT is a business that spent billions of dollars on that product. I don't care if you like that or not. The kernel itself is still used today in Win2K and XP, and it is THEIR property.
The last thing I want is government that steps in at every chance to bully companies and people. As a matter of fact, I'm for a much smaller government, and sadly, we're going the opposite way. Beat MSFT by being better - don't look for someone else to solve your problems.
Linux will not beat MSFT in a consumer market because it has NO consumer strategy right now. Change that. You think innovation is a "MSFT joke"? Fine, hopefully someone who cares about innovation will push you aside and do it themselves.
People like Linus didn't whine and look for the government to shutdown MSFT before trying to make a difference. I'm saddened by the whining - I hear how MSFT whines, but it sounds the same on this end to, and it's SAD. Make a difference, don't bitch about it.
For every person here who says that the government should force this or the government should force that - go and start a company that DOES what you are saying. Don't try to alter the future by lobbying, because it has a serious impact in the future that is very scary. The reality is I could go buy Maces today - I have a Mac at home. I can run Linux. It's not like I don't HAVE choices. Yes, I understand MSFT is evil, bad bad, and they did bad things, they did this and they did that. Fine compete against them. It takes people to make a difference and innovate.
see my post below about boycottxp.com -davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
I've receieved a number of emails, so I'll just setup a mailing list to decide what I do...mind if I add you to the list? Your opinion and experiance would be great.
-davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
# Hack the planet, it's important.
I recently heard in an advertisement that with the new version of AOL you can even use email to send pictures to your friends!
The timing is too tight for this to be a coincidence.
Today we learned (here on slashdot) that AOL is opening up its instant messaging software to third parties. Then we hear Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee has asked state prosecutors to seek an injunction blocking the launch of Windows XP
The article linked from the top of the slashdot presents this comment (among others) from Microsoft: Microsoft also took aim at AOL Time Warner, saying the company has steadfastly refused to open its instant messaging systems to interoperate with other systems.
It's plausible that the AOL news were a preemptive strike since they knew that Sen. Schumer was going to make the news later in the day, perhaps at the behest of lobbyists paid for by one or more corporations based in NY state.
I don't believe that the government should have a say in how companies go about doing their business. While I don't agree with several Microsoft practices, it sickens me to think that publicly elected officials may be acting on behalf of corporations. Ayn Rand warned us about this at length (see Atlas Shrugged). I believe that Microsoft should be able to release its software as they see fit. It's up to us software developers and vendors (free software, open software, commercial, whatever) to stop their hegemony. People forget that Microsoft managed to break IBM's stronghold of computer technology by offering better products and being smarter about business than the larger company.
Think of IBM's TopView and compare it to Windows 1.0. They came out at roughly the same time. Neither one worked. IBM dropped the product. Microsoft improved the product over the years to the point where we see it today. OS/2? Good software implementation, but lousy business strategy. The current Linux revolution proves that radically different software is adopted if it (a) satisfies the user's requirements and (b) it's available. Finally, if you aren't old enough to have witnessed the fall of IBM and the rise of Microsoft (or to know what TopView was), please abstain from flaming.
It's our turn to be smarter about distributing our wares and creating better products. We don't need government intervention to win.
Cheers!
Ehttp://eugeneciurana.com | http://ciurana.eu
I was thinking: Windows, WinCE, XBox, hardware, software, IE, and content, plus maybe one or two others if I missed anything. Of course my watchword for those bozos up the street (I live about a mile away from the Redmond campus) is "Microsoft delenda est." ;)
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Hah! Unfortunately for you, I started working at the job I'm at in Seattle a few months prior to my move from Boston. Now I'm on the verge of quitting and moving back to the East Coast to go back to school. (only a few more days in fact) So not much need to interview, huh?
I've been to MS to meet with friends and neighbors that work there, but I've never interviewed there, and I've never even considered it. There's a surprisingly large number of people around here that don't like MS, I discovered.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Not true. Besides cosmetic changes there are a few very significant ones, including but not limited to:
All in all, MS is arrogantly continuing to use exact same tactics they were sued for. Now that they already own the browser market, they can give a token consession to remove IE from the desktop. Now they have set their greedy eyes on the music distribution market. Unless something is done to stop them, they'll own that as well, so you'll have to pay Microsoft tax not only on new computers but also every time you listen to a song or watch a movie or print a picture with your digital camera (Gates claims everything will be pay-per-view in not too distant future). So yeah, blocking XP is a good idea. Even more so since the punishment fits the crime.
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Bad choice there -- If you'll recall the mid-90s, Netscape was running roughshod over every browser available at the time. Remember Netscape-specific tags? <BLINK> anyone?
Netscape was just as bad (if not worse) than Microsoft. When MS got their head and ass wired together and bought the Spyglass browser and turned it into IE, they were competing with Netscape. Netscape decided to implode through insane management decisions and unmaintainable growth, and got trounced technically. Boo hoo. It was not that rascally Bill Gates who destroyed Netscape -- they managed quite nicely on their own, and the Open Standards of the Web were saved (for the moment). Now if Microsoft does the same thing, then they'll be in the wrong.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Of course, this whole entire discussion is completely irrelevent as this will never happen.
--
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
Yeah, okay, so perhaps that's not all that original. But you get the idea...
--
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
For the love of God, think about what you're saying. I hate Microsoft with a passion, but stopping them from shipping a product because it might hurt innovation? How the hell do you come to THAT conclusion? Besides, the economic impact would be severe. The computer industry NEEDS WinXP to be launched in October to help fuel consumer and business buying, thus giving the tech companies a much-needed boost. If XP were blocked, the computer industry might not recover at all this year. Economy aside, blocking XP just makes absolutely no sense.
Just because applications come bundled with the operating system does not make them part of it. Maybe my ideas are rather old-fashioned, but I consider that the operating system is there to manage the hardware and provide services to application programs, and to allow users to run applications. Anything else, whether bundled or obtained separately, is an application.
> They illegally attacked Java, fragmented it, and now refuse to support in XP
I'm not even going to beat the dead horse of Java partisanship that's so obvious here, but the reason they don't support it in XP is that Sun prohibits them from shipping a JVM in XP.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Because it's a Microsoft supported technology, hence you will see "support whatever is the competitor...regardless" (see CORBA).
The whole "steaming pile of it"? I don't work for Microsoft and never have, but from people who have (or are source partners) what I've heard their code is absolutely beautiful. I find it funny that those in the Linux community (which is known to have some of the nastiest source around) throw mud MS' way.
Oh, and you know for a fact that Schumer's receiving payments from Microsoft? Uh, OK. Anything you say. (I was unaware that the Branch Davidians were big Microsoft apologists.)
Actually if I was worried about unfair competition and made a comment like:
and the response from the Microsoft spokesperson (Vivek Varma) was:
I'd sure be a little miffed and wanting to drag their sorry behinds in front of Congress to get an answer to my concerns. Just note how Microsoft didn't answer the question at all. Bundling more crap into XP might (perhaps) benefit some consumers but does not (in ant way) address the issue of competition. And Microsoft knows it.
Perhaps the reason some senators are now raising concerns about Microsoft is that they're afraid that they'll be seen by their constituents as having part in propping up a known and increasingly arrogant monopoly abuser by having taken all those campaign contributions from the Gang from Redmond and their cronies and making apologetic statements regarding Microsoft business activities during the past few years. Whatever the reason, if it results in more hearings, like those proposed, taking place and the public hearing more about Microsoft's shenanigans, then that's fine with me.
Actually, I'm looking forward to these Congressional hearings. It almost makes me wish I still had cable so I could tape CSPAN. Microsoft's spokespeople are such bad liars and the transcripts should make for some amusing reading. Let's just hope the press finds the hearings newsworthy enough to cover them and that a few more senators and representatives can keep their zippers up for the next few months.
Cheers...
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Oh, shut up.
I don't see why you think forcing companies who orphan software (and forced upgrades to incompatible systems is certainly a form of orphanage) to GPL the product is so bad.
...
The original intent of copyright was that it be for a limited time. Only an ethically corrupt and morally bankrupt lawyer would interpret "life plus seventy five years" or "ninety years" (both significantly longer than the average human lifespan) to be 'limited' in any real sense of the word beyond the most technical (and in that technical sense a billion years would be a limited time, and clearly out of bounds of what the constitution was intended to allow).
Originally copyrights were 17 years in length, at which time the copyrighted material became public domain. Forcing Microsoft and other makers of proprietary software to GPL their products after they've been orphaned would actually be kinder (from their point of view) than returning copyright limits to their original length (which, IMnsHO is exactly what should be done) as GPLed software couldn't be used in a competing proprietary product the way public domain (or FreeBSD Licensed) code can.
Such a resolution would certainly be in the spirit of what was intended with copyright law when the constitution was written, and would do a lot to restore the shattered balance of the consumers' rights versus those of the copyright holder. Having said that, I'd much prefer the entire morass of Windows code remain proprietary and disappear into that proprietary black hole that has swallowed so many unreleased copyrighted material, never to see the light of day even after the copyright has expired and it would have entered the public domain. Losing that code could only be a service to humankind, but I digress
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Perhaps Coke wasn't the best example you could have chosen.
Bite the hand.
Every time I see him speak on TV, my blood pressure goes up 40 points. He never lets inconvenient things like facts, logic or principles get in the way of a good rant.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Actually Redhat 7.1 + Ximian 1.4 is functionally identical to XP.
The changes in the UI will amount to the same amount of training, and if you pre-load the software for them you just solved everything.
I've had my mother running the above combination for 3 months now... and havent heard a peep otrher than the steady stream of emails from her, and questions on how to open these emails attachments from people that want her advice on something... (My mom is now virus proof! That in it's self is worth it)
Nope, XP is not the only choice, Linux is a viable one.... but only for those that are willing to put forth a tiny bit of effort in the beginning.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I don't have much love for Microsoft, but there is no way in hell I want to see this happen. Government regulation of dangerous/unhealthy products and services is one thing. An OS?!? Come on! The market is already beginning to balance itself with the growing popularity of Linux, OS X, and all those Internet Appliances that are bound to show up (*cough*). The market WILL take care of itself one way or another. Even Microsoft can't hold everything back forever. Eventually something new will come out. Yeah, it might be hard, but the end result will be better for everyone in the long run. And there is NO need to keep Microsoft from releasing a new OS upgrade! Heck, if it sucks, less people will buy it. They may have a monopoly of sorts right now, but it isn't one that is locked tight. An OS can be changed in an afternoon. There is no need for this kind of insane action.
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
Could it be that the GPL is the only way to protect the software. Sure the BSD licenses are great for programmers but the code itself can be taken raped, beaten and kidnapped into propritaty formats that benifit the original code in no way what so ever. (look at OSX) At least with GPL it protects the code and code modifications.
(Ok no way what so ever is a little of a stretch for OSX only because apple did realase some of the code back. although very little)
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
I believe that Sun prohibits them from shipping their non-standards compliant JVM with XP. I don't believe that Sun would prohibit them from shipping, e.g., the Sun JVM. They could certainly include, e.g., a Kafe Install CD. IBM would certainly be glad to sell them the right to distribute Jikes cheaply.
Sorry. I don't buy the "They'd like to but they can't" argument. Of course, if you had a URL at a creditable source to point me to, that might be another matter. (P.S.: I don't consider M.S. to be a creditable source.)
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
True. IIRC, he is one of the members of our government who takes a firm stand against the rights and freedoms of the individual, preferring instead a more imperial government. There has to be more to this sudden change of heart than altruism. What's in it for Schumer?
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I don't want to seem anti GPL here, but that would not be a good idea.
Forcing them to release it under the GPL would stop most competitors from building on it and producing their own competing product. I see no problems with them having to give NT source into the public domain, or released under BSD license, but forcing them to use the GPL would then hamper the compitition who could benefit from this.
There is a place for the GPL, but this definately isn't one.
For a good time call www.sawkie.com
Why, still mystified by the whole unstrapping of the bra thing?
Are you kidding me? Linux is one giant beta test.
OK, so we have more "wah wah, Microsoft's being a bully" from a prominent US citizen. Good for him, good for us, they're as guilty as sin, ad nauseium, ad infenitem.
The main problem we have here is that Microsoft keeps on "innovating" on Windows to the point of sucking money from people and businesses addicted to thier OS and main stay applications. Fair enough - let them have thier "innovations" - but only those developed over the last 5 years.
IIRC, support for NT will be pulled in 2002. So, the Government should force Micorsoft to release the source code for NT 4.0 SP6a under the GPL after the support is pulled. The whole steaming pile of it. It's 2 versions behind, so should be berift of thier "innovations" and no problem at all to GPL. If thier new products are truly innovative, they'll still sell millions of copies, right?
On the consumer side, it would allow interested parties to maintain thier current environment, the more industrious (some would say insane) to improve on what's there, others could develop competeing products *cough*SAMBA*cough* on other architectures and others still to develop really competive apps for Windows and/or other platforms under WIN32.
IMHO, no one is better able to compete with Microsoft than themselves.
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
Of course, Microsoft gave him $3,500.
But that only buys a few copies of WinXP. You can see why Schumer is peeved.
-gleam
this
> when I read the following paragraph from the article:
"Windows has always been designed as an open platform that creates new business opportunities for many third parties, including some of our toughest competitors"
It does create new business opportunities... as in "find another line of work".
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
The whole bundling issue comes from the fact that the Antitrust Act says that you can't use a legally obtained monopoly in one market to leverage a monopoly (unfairly, without competition) in another market. This is why, back in the '70s or there about, the government wouldn't let Kodak bundle processing (a market in which they did not have a huge presence) with their film (which was a monopoly at the time).
The fact is that the rules are different for monopolies than for non-monopolies. Monopolies have to be careful what they bundle so as to not leverage one monopoly, which may have been legally obtained through competition, to unfairly gain another. Non-monopolies don't have this concern.
Moves by Apple to bundle extra software would probably not be seen as anticompetitive because they only have 5% of the market. The same goes for Linux which has even less (of the desktop market anyway).
No, it'll be MUCH better to have one company that will tell you everything you can or can't buy for your computer.
Oh, wait...
(Yes, I am ignoring the Free Software movement. Microsoft has destroyed the business of creating and selling many classes of PC software...and that's bad.)
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
So you've never bought a name-brand PC? Good for you. Here's your sticker proclaiming your membership in a most exclusive fraternity. For everybody else, not being able to get a PC without paying Microsoft is sort of a pain.
Your point about Sklyarov is well taken...but don't you see that the kind of power Adobe is wielding could be used by any large (like Microsoft) company? Wouldn't it be a good idea to put some strictures on these juggernauts' behaviour?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Chuck Schumer is just a gas bag looking for a little press. Apparently the check from Microsoft didn't come in this month. It's amazing how he has suddenly started caring a great deal more for the public then he did during the Waco hearings.
If it ain't a Model M, it's a piece of crap.
First, and foremost, impossible. Too much underlying technology in NT that is NOT owned by Microsoft
But in case this were to happen, and microsoft was forced to give away unencumbered previous copies of their OS, it would NOT, be under the GPL.
Reference implementations, that are done so others can look and implement, are beter licensed Under a BSD-Like or Public Domain license. Why you ask?
Well, do you think most companies would use the code if it was GPL'ed and they were *forced* to have to release their enhancements to said code base?
Not likely.
Even RMS agrees with this. ( see the Orgg Vorbis commentary by RMS, in which he agress with it's BSD-Like license).
Yet another case of GPL/Linux fanatics, thinking their way is the only way.
Kinda reminds you of the way MS thinks...
Hey, automobile manufacturers should not be allowed to bundle stereos with their products because it put a huge crimp on the after-market stereo sales. The only people who are going to bother are the hard-core nerds who want a real high-end system that most people wouldn't care about.
Now replace "automobile manufacturers" with "Microsoft", "stereos" with "Internet browser", "high-end system" with "Mozilla" or "Opera", etc, and you have the government's argument in a nutshell.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I think that Sen. Schumer should investigate the U.S. auto industry.
I haven't been able to buy parts from Dodge to fit my Ford car.
Seriously though, XP won't prevent me from running another IM (AOL, Yahoo, Jabber), or another Media Player (Real, Winamp, Musicmatch). Or another ISP (AOL, DSL). It doesn't even make it harder to run an alternate.
So I have to download a program to run it. Big deal. Last time I checked the inventory of apps on my Linux boxen, I noticed that I downloaded virtually every usefull application AFTER I loaded the OS (hard to install them prior to the OS). It wasn't a big deal.
If it's good ol' Chucky Shumer, the changes are REAL good.
Well, they could just stop selling 9x/ME and let everyone move to 2000. Same effect.
Finally, a voice of reason. What percent of M$ sales are to goverments? How many to the very governments now embroiled in the lawsuit? I wouldn't be surprised if it is 10-15%. Dropping those sales would cure M$ pretty freakin' quick.
Then take into account the additional 10-15% when contractors aren't reimbursed for M$ software, and/or when they are required to use the native StarOffice file format (for example) when submitting gov't bids, reports, etc.
Then eliminate the French and German government sales. It'll happen sooner or later. There goes another couple of points.
While the 10-15% from the initial government backoff wouldn't do a great deal, the ripple (or multiplier, for those of you who passed macroecon) effect would be large.
Heck, I'm not even sure that they need to go this far. Mandate a certain xml dtd (I think dtd is what I'm looking for) as the preferred document type for government information exchange, and get on with it. Who gives a rat's patootie about M$ if someone can make a Jabber plug-in that will create government standard output logs of chats?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I suppose that since you noticed, it's too late to point out? :)
Seriously though, I was thinking about that after I posted, and I remember what I read (O'Reilly book?) saying how voluminous the gov't spec for SGML was, and that it was nearly unusable.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
/*Remember how Win2000 was suppose to solve all the stability problems of Win9x? Win2000 still crashes frequently. */
:)
For whom?
Windows 2000 hasn't crashed on me in.. wow, I don't remember.
I can, however, recall X crashing on me a year or so back. In fact, it crashed so often that I said fuck it and bought Windows 2000.
Oh yeah, that's what it was; Geforce2 and Windows 2000 didn't get along March 2000, crash city with games. Downgraded to Matrox G200 and no problems since (and have since up'd to Voodoo 3).
OOO! Didn't think of this, either until just now: Could have been a faulty card (probably the cooling fan? I think I recall problems with those... This *was* a refurb I got at Frye's). That may have caused the instability in both Linux and Windows 2000. Hmm.. I would switch back to Linux but I'm already pretty content with Win2000 right now. No crashes, no fuss, all the apps I need are already paid for..
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
I think it should be OS, Apps and web. That way Windows can't shove IE down peoples' throats. And hotmail can't cram Outlook Express down peoples' throats and IE can't cram msn down peoples' throats.
"Sometimes it's hard to tell the dancer from the dance." --Corwin Of Amber in CoC
At least XP actually informs you. On Linux you have to read 6000 man pages or maybe read half a million news group messages before you realise you can do something with it.
How many people have installed Linux and then gone..."ok, now what?". I know I had to ask 50 questions just to find out that you type "startx".
Apple does not have a monopoly. Monopolies have restrictions on them that other businesses don't.
Not only is MS a monopoly they have been judged by a federal judge to criminally abused their monopoly to choke off competition. This came after they had already been reprimanded by the federal govt for their previous behaviours. Not only that but the appeals court upheld the guilty verdict of the first judge.
Wait a minute...
According to the findings of fact, Jackson rules that Microsoft had a monopoly on the "X86 based consumer desktop market"
Surely, by the same logic, Apple has a monopoly on the "Motorola-based consumer desktop market"????
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
As a CEO of netscape would you really pay money to develop a free product?
Well, given that Andreesen has stated that Netscape was always meant to be given away for free (they were selling servers - and this was the business plan that Barksdale signed up for).... Yes.
Besides - all the other browsers had been free as well. Remember Mosaic? Lynx?
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Windows XP doesn't add new capabilities - it just informs the user of the capabilities they have always had.
Well, I guess that CD burning built-in, automatic time synch with an atomic clock over NTP built-in, file-transfer wizard to help you migrate from an old computer, built-in firewall, task-bar cleaning, Network bridging/1394/USB networking, ClearType, massively improved Error Reporting, the whole Help and Support center and fast user switching (as a brief run-down) aren't new features then?
In that case, can you let me know where they were on Windows 2000?
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
"Surely, by the same logic, Apple has a monopoly on the "Motorola-based consumer desktop market"???? "
Not until a judge says so. That's the way our system works.
Therefore, either the US Legal System ignores logic, or the judge was illogical. Which is it?
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
I don't want to beta test. I use linux.
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Once XP is released you can say good bye to any non MS technology running on windows
Sorry, but I have to call bullshit here.
My app runs *fine* on XP, and it's not written by Microsoft. So do several hundred thousand *other* apps.
So what is this technology you're speaking of that will miraculously drop dead?
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Synching with atomic clocks - MacOS 8 had this. ClearType - For fucks sake, the Apple ][ had this one! Technologist Steve Gibson, a software developer and consultant whose claim to fame was inventing the light pen more than a decade ago, says he recognizes the technique as one used in the Apple II. He confirmed his suspicion by comparing notes with Apple cofounder Steve Wozniak, who developed a font-smoothing technique for the Apple II
Yes, and he's fucking wrong, but won't admit it.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Your app probaly doesn't do anything important enough to be imitated, or programmed against. I have no doubt there is anti lotus, netscape, realplayer, etc code lurking in the dark heart of that source code they desperately won't let you see.
Nah, there's enough shit code in RealPlayer (hey! It installs all this crap I asked it not to...) and Netscape (wow! look at it crash. AGAIN) without MS having to write any.
The technology he means is probably: email servers, cd burners, internet browsers, media players, database servers, email programs, and everything else important that MS HAS to control or they'll have a fuckin fit.
Nero works fine. Opera works fine. Realplayer works fine. Quicktime works fine. Eudora works fine. Netscape works fine. As for the DB servers, etc... well, I don't have them. Sorry.
So let's see... out of all your examples... I can testify over 60% of them working great. Would you care to give some examples? Or drop the FUD crusade?
Pick one.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
I also have a friend who was an intern for Schumer while he was still in the House. New York is full of businesses which constantly lobby their Representatives and Senators. Schumer is not known for taking action simply on the whims of lobbyists.
You do have a point, one of these companies may have opened his eyes to the issue, but I assure you that he did not follow through because of the lobbying, but instead because of the results of his research.
---
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
Yes, and your point is... ?
My mom is a graphic designer. None of the apps she uses on her Mac are written by people who speak her native language, yet she has no problem with that because of a very specific technology that seems little-known to North Americans: translation.
-- Colin
I think out of all the following:
Microsoft Legal, Microsoft Applications, Microsoft Hardware, Microsoft Marketing, Microsoft Operating system
The two I'd be most afraid of are: Microsoft Legal and Microsoft Marketing.
They are the only two departments in Microsoft that have enough chutzpah to kill their own parents, and then beg for mercy because they have recently become orphans.
As another posted has already stated:
Antitrust laws are there to foster COMPETITION and -ETHICAL- Innovation. Those who violate those ethics (ie: abusive monopolies such Standard Oil, AT&T and Microsoft) have their legal -privelege- to continue to innovate in un-ethical manners -yanked-.
I wish they'd get busted up, but it ain't gonna happen. Instead, we're probably going to see something akin to what IBM had to deal with in the 1980's. It's taken them a -decade- to recover, and they've -truly- had to innovate to do it.
Besides, MS doesn't innovate, they Borg.
Last I saw, OS X comes with CD buring software, a pretty decent movie maker, DVD authoring software, a decent mail client, and much more. Where do you draw the line?
This is so ignorant it is laughable. All of those software components can be removed completely from the hard drive *without* affecting the OS. That is completely different from winbloze which integrates them. Fact is, you cannot completely remove IE from winbloze due to all the libraries that the rest of the OS rely's on.
In fact, all of those software applications that Apple includes have superior 3rd party competitors.
Apple gives you enough to get you going, but leaves the best implementation for 3rd party developers. This is in stark contrast to M$ who clearly tries to kill competitors.
Mandrake 8.0 nicely autodetected my laptop's network card. Pretty much Mandrake 8 comes with everything Windoze 2k does, and freeciv and nmap to boot.
No wonder I'm considering losing the win2k partition..
-Dexx
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
The most dangerous place in Washington is between Chuck Schumer and a camera. He will do anything to get some publicity. Look at his record. He's worse than Hillary
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
It's entirely possible that windows is increasing the cost of our hardware, because it all has to be compatable with the original IBM. If you can redesign the hardware to take advantage of new technology, you can use cheaper/better/faster components.
Boycott?
Most of the users on Slashdot I thought use Linux, so either you guys run some form of Windows (like me), or you are going to buy/warez Windows XP just so you can complain that it pops up it's own software and you don't want to hit the X in the corner. I plan to use XP because it mixes the 2K and ME code base into one product. If some people are upset that Microsoft makes software that is so easy to use that people must buy it because they want to work not hack, then let them use Linux. I could care less about seeing the source for Windows. If I wanted to write for it, I would work for Microsoft. They are a business, not a hobby.
If you guys are so "freedom of choice" why must I choose the same as you? I want my XP!
As a matter of fact a number of good restaurants do offer this. The hard part is in the preparation, not in the sheet of paper...
My younger sister prefers KDE2 to Windows on her p120. It does what she needs a computer to do, and does it consistently w/out locking up or melting for no reason. Windows is not easy, Windows is familiar. KDE2 is not easier or harder to use than Windows, it's just different. Don't put down a perfectly good system because you don't understand the difference between familiarity and ease of use.
As an unrelated side note...The only innovation in Windows since the 3.x series was the task bar. Until Microsoft moves to something more intuative than what's fundamentally program manager poping up when you hit the start button, Windows will not get any easier.The best way to accelerate a windows box is at 9.8 meters per second square.
Ever heard of a MAC?
War is necrophilia.
Who cares how hard it is to decide what the punishment should be. The point is while they are deciding MS should not be allowed to continue committing crimes. Criminals are usually in jail while they are awaiting sentensing. MS is a soul-less immortal being so it can not be jailed but it should not be allowed to whatever it wants in the meantime.
War is necrophilia.
Apple does not have a monopoly. Monopolies have restrictions on them that other businesses don't.
Not only is MS a monopoly they have been judged by a federal judge to criminally abused their monopoly to choke off competition. This came after they had already been reprimanded by the federal govt for their previous behaviours. Not only that but the appeals court upheld the guilty verdict of the first judge.
In this case there is no line to draw.
If you are a monopoly and you have been judged to be a criminal three times then you ought have some
restrictions put on you. They are so far over the line there is no question about it.
Criminals don't enjoy the same rights as everybody else.
War is necrophilia.
Neverthe less they have been judged to be guilty of crimes. The appeals court upheld that verdict. They are criminals and should be treated as such.
War is necrophilia.
Your sister installed windows? She is able to open up her box and install hardware and then install the drivers? She seems pretty advanced to me I am sure she could handle Linux. If she can't there is always a MAC. Even my 72 year old dad can use a mac.
War is necrophilia.
Why do you keep insisting that the choice is only between linux and windows. Mac is a great choice for inexperienced people. Much better usability then windows and controlled hardware makes incompatibilities a thing of the past.
War is necrophilia.
Chances are very good that he will have to upgrade his sytems. If not now then in a few months or so. Why not hold off until then and get a mac. Also if he is willing to fork over $500.00 for licenses of XP then it almost pays for a mac.
War is necrophilia.
"Surely, by the same logic, Apple has a monopoly on the "Motorola-based consumer desktop market"???? "
Not until a judge says so. That's the way our system works.
War is necrophilia.
It's not illegal to have a monopoly as long as you don't abuse it. MS criminally abused their monopoly. Big difference there dontcha think?
War is necrophilia.
You seem to be confused about our legal system (do you live in America?). First somebody has to press charges, some party has to be wronged enough to take the offending party to court. So far apparently Apple has not effended anybody enough to actually warrant a charge being filed.
Also It is not illegal to actually have a monopoly it's illegal to abuse that monopoly. Even if apple has the monopoly the management at apple are apparently more ethical amd moral people then the management at MS (not surprising given the slimyness of the MS executives).
MS could press charges against apple but I would doubt they would win.
"the judge was illogical."
A panel of judges on the appeals court upheld the judge so I guess he was not illogical. Maybe you are unable to grasp the complexities of our legal system and are reaaching for overly simplistic answers to your own overly simplistic questions.
War is necrophilia.
Oh my god. Its specterjr! I remember you here, valiantly fighting for MS two or three years ago. CD burning built in is not a new 'feature', it is trying to take over Adaptec's market; 1394/USB networking: okay, thats nice. Error reporting : WOW!! fast user switching: oh file transfer wizrd: thats one crappy wizard, big deal, built in firewall: at last. trying to rip off zone alarm probably tnp synch: unix has had this for how long? task bar cleaning: give me a fucking break. All of these are minor add ons that certainly nobody would pay $$ for by themselves, but once MS bundles it up people are probably paying $10 for each of those.
Juln
Sooorry, I have to call your bullshit here.
Your app probaly doesn't do anything important enough to be imitated, or programmed against. I have no doubt there is anti lotus, netscape, realplayer, etc code lurking in the dark heart of that source code they desperately won't let you see.
The technology he means is probably: email servers, cd burners, internet browsers, media players, database servers, email programs, and everything else important that MS HAS to control or they'll have a fuckin fit.
Juln
Female Prison Rape in NY
Female Prison Rape in NY
Such an injunction would actually give some credence to MicroSquish's standard "wah! They don't want us to INNOVATE" bullshit.
Let them go ahead and ship XP, and then break them up. They were found GUILTY of the antitrust charges, after all.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
>You have to remember Microsoft is NOT going to be broken up. The appellate court has made that decision, and it's doubtful the Supreme Court would overturn it.
The appellate court did *not* decide that MicroSquish isn't going to be broken up, they decided that Judge Jackson's ruling would be set aside, and that another judge will decide what the penalty should be. There is nothing to prohibit another judge from also deciding that a breakup is necessary.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I haven't bought anything from that outfit since some time around 1983, so nothing I do now will reduce their revenues by even one dollar.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Right... And look at all that 3rd Party support Apple has. I suppose the Mac users out there should be happy to have any 3rd party development, though, considering how impossible it used to be to make something as a 3rd party developer for Apple.
On a side note, I'm not sure which part of this is worse... That you think Apple is good for doing the same things as Microsoft does (although it's ok because it isn't a monopoly), that you think Apple is good because it makes mediocre software (allowing 3rd party developers a chance to sell stuff), or that you think Microsoft is bad because they happen to be trying to make reasonably good software such that 3rd party software is unneccesary (thus possibly justifying some portion of the cost... Pay too much for an OS and then go buy what you need, or just pay too much for an OS with a bunch of stuff included...)
The way you attack IE, by the way, could, in theory, be applied to every Mac OS. The remaining libraries are GUI libraries. Unless I missed somethign recently nearly every Mac program is supposed to use the Mac supplied GUI libraries. Since the Mac program uses those libraries in order to display anything, shouldn't they be removed in order to remove that program completely? But wait, that would effect the OS...
Just because IE happens to use what's provided instead of having seperate GUI libraries doesn't make it all that invasive. Those libraries (along with some of the basic web-browser-like functionality inherent in a good single-window graphical file system) happen to be pretty damn important to the system. What you're complaining about would be somewhat similar to running XWindows with no window manager.
If you really want to clean it out, those libraries can be removed or replaced (see Win98Lite for one example, and Window Shades for other poorer attempts).
"Apple gives you enough to get you going, but leaves the best implementation for 3rd Party developers. This is in stark contrast to M$ who" actually attempts to write a good implementation from the start.
~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
"Veni; Vidi; Vi C++"
~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
You may want to look at how XP is alot more compatible with old programs than you would think. Also, you can now group multiple instances of an application together on the toolbar (I know its cosmetic). You can switch sessions from one person to another without logging out (memory hog!). There is alot more going on than the UI change.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
>Never mind that any e-mail client on the planet can send attatchments, the idea never occured to them before to send files.
yeah, but they do click on each and every attached file they receive.. maybe they got the idea from I_LOVE_YOU and/or Sircam..
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Remember how stable Win95 was supposed to be? Stability didn't materialize with Win95.
Remember how NT was supposed to be MS' rock solid and stable system. If you would just upgrade to NT, then your stability problems would go away. Stability didn't materialize with NT (okay, people say 3.5 [I think] was fairly stable, but MS blew it).
Remember how Win98 was suppose to solve the stability problems of Win95? Didn't happen, did it?
Remember how Win2000 was suppose to solve all the stability problems of Win9x? Win2000 still crashes frequently.
MS -still- hasn't solved the stability problems of the Win* line, and it never will. WinXP is just one more lap on the upgrade treadmill, and there is no end in sight.
Why is it that our voices are never heard by our politicians? I've emailed mine on many occasions, and it seems that things will never change. This isn't really something I would like to see happen. I'ld rather Microsoft was left alone, so that when Linux beats the pants off of them, they can't blame anyone. I'm ranting now, but I'm just fed up with our government. When will our respresentatives begin to represent what we want, and not what some corporation, or their personal agenda dictates...
Um, this is my sig.
The problem for me is, XP does include a couple of features that make it better for home use by my family than Win 98, the biggest one being stability
Every MS WINDOWS package is touted as being "more stable" than its predecessor...since Windows 3.1 (I know, it was a GUI that sat on top of DOS...) Why did this not compel you to upgrade to WinME?
Don't kid yourself. If it's not an application, it may be a driver incompatability, but WinXP will either die or show incompatabilities with one or more devicies or applications you own.
I'm tired of telling my mom that the computer crashed because "Windows is stupid" (which has become my default explanation for computer problems).
Soon, you'll be able to tell your mom that the computer crashed because "Windows XP is stupid" (which will become your new, improved default explanation for computer problems).
I like Linux as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure Linux is ready for my family to use.
Granted. It would be difficult to teach your parents a new OS with a new paradigm if they didn't want to take the time to learn it.
Windows is the only viable solution right now, and Windows XP is the best Windows there is.
Granted, Windows may be the best solution for you right now, but why must you upgrade? 98SE is a pretty good OS, as far as MS-OS's go, and you don't have the benefit of having seen XP in the field (at least not exposed to millions of end - users) so if stability is really your goal, give XP a year to release a few service packs, then consider upgrading. You can still participate in the boycott until XP has proven itself.
Yeah... WinME had that too, they said. Indeed, my fresh install of WinME booted quite fast. But after a few installations of software packages, video drivers and so on, it boots as slowly as Windows 98.
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
You really haven't worked for the government before have you? The DOJ doesn't have the authority to create a general mandate against Microsoft products. I can't imagine any government figure could do that. Furthermore, do you realize how much it would cost to switch over to a all-non-Windows solution for the entire government? We are talking billions of tax dollars here. It would probably cost the government much more to switch (don't forget training) than it would cost Microsoft in revenues.
Find and share links to celebrity profiles on MySpace! http://www.myspacecelebrities.com
Thanks to your "law", taxpayer-funded agencies will be forced to buy Microsoft OSes for half their machines
That is not what I am proposing. I propose "less than" not "exactly equal to" half non-MS OS's. I commend you for your ability to identify the slight ambiguity in my comment and jump out the window with unfounded conclusions. I really got a good laugh at your expense.
Congratulations, you've just overturned the most basic tenets of contract law.
Contract law does not limit a judicial remedy for a proven violation of the Sherman Act. You might as well argue that getting a traffic fine violates basic tenents of property rights. Courts have great power to enforce remedies against law breakers. What are you, stupid?
Also, Coca-Cola must include one can of Pepsi in every six-pack it sells, and optionally a can of Mountain Dew if Pepsico desires.
I am aware of no antitrust claim against Coca-Cola, let alone one that unanimously survived appellate review. Due process of law prevents the Courts from applying a remedy before a Court upholds the cause of action. You really should get a clue.
And Mozilla and Lynx32 and Grail and Amaya and Cello and Winamp's mini-browser...
I was thinking of Winamp's whole package. What is your point? If it's that someone has to draw a line, then you are really boring. Judges draw lines all the time. To get your browser included, you would have to go to the judge and show that the proven MS anticompetitive practices damaged you specifically in some way.
Congress should pass a law that half of all future taxpayer funded PC purchases will come with a non Microsoft OS.
The Court should do several remedial steps, each tailored directly at undoing the harm caused by the specific anticompetive practices Microsoft has done:
1. OS Monopoly countermeasure: uniform licencing. MS may offer one version of its OS at one price. No sale may be refused. OEMs may make any noninfringing value added modification they choose. The Court should reassess every two years if this measure is still needed.
2. Java countermeasure: MS must bundle Sun's version of Java and any java related extras desired by Sun. Reassess every two years
3. Comingling of code: Mandate full disclosure of API's found to be involved. If Browser bundling is found to be anticompetitive on remand, force MS to distrubute Netscape and Opera. Similarly with other media programs. Reassess every two years.
Simple.
I think you fail to miss the context of the post you were replying to.
:).
That fellow suggested a punishment for Microsoft severely abusing its monopoly. If Microsoft had been a good business, working within the law, such a suggestion would, indeed, be absurd. However, they have *NOT* worked within the law.
All the other possible examples you cited used companies that are not currently considered illegal monopolies - so damnit, yes, there IS a difference.
If Coca Cola went and gunned down all the employees of all their competitors, I think fair punishment would be for them to be forced to release their recipe; at that point, all they have is manufacturing ability. Anybody can reproduce their product, so they are no longer a monopoly. The punishment fits, since their crime was to become a monopoly(looking past the murders in this example
That is what the suggested punishment is for; they are not suggesting that "since Microsoft is a successful business, they should have all their code forced open", they are suggesting that "since Microsoft has repeatedly abused its monopoly in such a manner as to cause serious financial and personal damage, they should make amends by making the code for unsupported products available"
Personally, I think if such a thing were to happen, the code should be public domain, not GPL'd. That way anybody can do whatever they want with it.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
However, KDE is not as consistently easy to use as Windows. Some of the apps have horrible UIs or were written by people who don't speak English as a first language (KPackage comes to mind...). The Control Center, while powerful, is intimidating to users (so many panels!), and can't handle many things that Windows's can (like hardware setup - almost always requires command-line jockeying).
AMEN! I hate KDE, and I hate GNome, and I hate all of the others. I hate XWindows period. Really, I hate GUIs to begin with... but...
Even with pretty themes, it's still not nearly as usable as a well set-up Windows desktop. I even beg to differ on KDE being "more stable" than Windows, for that matter, since I see applications go down all the time (and --MY-- Windows ME machine almost NEVER crashes...)
I use KDE2, though, because of the many choices it's one of the better ones. Still, I hate how new windows open and force themselves into one of the four corners, or they stagger, or they want to dock themselves, or they're picky about where they want to be, and even applications which should obviously remember where you want windows to pop up don't seem to remmber it from session to session (and those that do randomly decide to forget.) Generally speaking, the look and feel just plain sucks. Compared to everything I've used spanning Amiga Workbench, MAC OS, Windows, OS/2, BeOS, and countless others -- the offerings on Unix blow.
The fact is - KDE could be called a Kludge, and while that might offend a lot of people, esspecially the people who are die hard Linux Lovers, they always fall back to pretty stupid defenses for their favorite desktops. The worst part about it is, I know a lot of RELIGIOUSLY FANATICAL Linux lovers who loath Windows, but then after watching them for about 10 minutes it's obvious they really don't even know how to USE Windows! (I guess what they say is true. Those who hate Windows run Linux. Those who love Unix run FreeBSD.)
I'm not defending Windows by far. I'd never run a server on it. NEVER. EVER. EVER. I wouldn't even DREAM of it. I'm a Unix lover. I think Unix is wonderful. It makes a great computing platform and it's an awesome server.
A desktop OS it is not. It nver has been, and it's got a whilte to go before it ever will be. Get over it. Deal with it. Some of us are cut out for Unix, the rest of the world shouldn't be using computers, much less the Internet, and definately not Unix.
Every "my little sister this" or "my mother that" story I hear makes me want to vomit. So what? You found a rare individual who "gets it" and wants to use a computer for more than browsing the web. Or maybe they just don't care about general interfaces. Functionality over Form, Purpose over Proposal. If that's the case, wonderful. Fine. Keen-O. Brill. I'm glad you've found users who are happier with Unix than Windows. Thrilled even. I hope they are productive. I hope they accomplish many great things. I hope they find the golden peanut in their feces.
Me personally? I'd prefer not even run XWindows at all because I prefer the command line. But then, I'd say that Mice have only been mainstream for about HALF of the time that I've been using computers, and my first Mouse came with my first Amiga and I hated using it even then. The only reason I use KDE at all is because it would be a little difficult to use LICQ or GAIM without a GUI... perhaps not entirely impossible, but certainly not a pain I want to put myself through just to discovered how difficult it actually is.
For everything else graphics I need, I actually do prefer using Windows. I have a few stable set-ups, they do what I need, and for my desktop (and gaming) usage, Windows is simply a better platform. Yes. Windows is better at some things. Get over it.
For my web-server, coding, poking around, and generally beeing a geek -- Windows doesn't touch my FreeBSD machine.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
MSFT has grown to the point where free market alone won't fix the problem anymore. Whether it is just or not, the problem needs to be fixed by the authorities or doom is upon us.
Your solution "do something yourself" is naive and doesn't work because of the nature of software and the need for compatability (for most people/companies) with the 'de facto' standard. Some exceptions (like you and myself, running Linux or FreeBSD) don't influence the major market consisting of people who hardly have a realistic alternative to MS-Windows at the moment. Unless the government interferes, this can hardly change. Especially if MSFT is allowed to go to new levels of customer-lock-in practices with new stuff such as .NET.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Most open source luminaries (Torvalds, Perens, Redhat) disagree, and think that linux has more than a fighting chance on its own. That said, it wouldn't hurt to have a nice breakup (Preferably into 3 or more pieces. the 2 piece breakup is a sham, really).
When videogames are banned by Senator X and crypto is outlawed, make sure you've got this article bookmarked so you know who to blame.
Microsoft definitely needs to be taken down a notch or two, but this way? Do the ends really justify the means, or is it just this one time?
All this is is one corporation buying a politician to attack another corporation. Is this behavior acceptable this time simply because it's against The Great Satan?
Say Microsoft is taken down because AOL and Sun buy all of the politicians... then what? You thought Bill Gates was bad, imagine Steve Case and Scott McNealy with half of DC in their pockets. Yes Microsoft needs to be cut down a peg or three, but not like this. Do it with boycotts and public education. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
So, because MSFT sold a piece of SW they will not support, everything should be released under the GPL if it's "old".
No, the point is that if Microsoft will stop supporting the product (which they of course have every right to do), owners of the unsupported software should have access to the source code in order to troubleshoot their own software.
You are saying there should be no privately owned information.
This is absolutely false. The post above says that non-supported "old" products should have the source released for them, so that OWNERS of copies of the software can continue to use it. They have already paid for their use of the software. If the newer product doesn't offer improved features and functionality, why then should they pay for an upgrade?
What you fail to realize, is that MSFT is a business that spent billions of dollars on that product.
They have also been paid WELL OVER the invested amount by users of the software. Those rightful owners of the software should expect support of the software directly or indirectly.
The kernel itself is still used today in Win2K and XP, and it is THEIR property.
I would be extremely surprised if the kernel has not changed at least slightly between NT 3.51, 4.0, 5.0, and Whistler.
I would also like to opine that you sound like billg. Why not just log in?
Hello little man. I will destroy you!
So is Windows, and i think that was his point!
Link is broken
Care to mirror it somewhere?
------------ Internet? Is that thing still around? H.J. Simpson
Yeah, and Ford has a monopoly on all cars made with a "Ford" logo.
If Apple ever gets 95% of the computer market, then you can call them a monopoly, and we'll debate if they're abusing it.
But expanding the definition of monopoly to include any company that builds something unique is to render the word "monopoly" a useless word. A monopoly is defined as a commodity that is controlled by one party characterized such that the demand for the product is generally inflexible compared to price. As Apple-watchers know, the inexpensive iMac is why Apple is still making computers today. If they had stuck with their deal of making insanely expensive computers, everyone would have switched to PCs. The fact that Apple is constrained -- that is, cannot double the price of their computers and still maintain the same volume -- shows they don't have a monopoly.
It's been already been determined by legal experts that Microsoft has a monopoly, so I don't think that's up for discussion any longer.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
No, replace "automobile manufacturers" with "an automobile manufacturer with 95% market share and almost-exclusive bundling agreements with cities that any roads that are built can only have their cars driving on them", ad then you've got a pretty good analogy.
Throw in that this "automobile manufacturer" won't let you buy a car; you have to lease it from them on a yearly basis. Plus, they recently made it so that the radio in the car will only play radio stations that they own. To play others' radio stations, you can go to AutoZone and install a device in your car to play others radio stations, but studies have shown that most people who know nothing about cars won't bother to do this.
Make those changes, and then you've got a pretty good analogy.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
And to the troll who suggested that Microsoft should be able to do anything they want: Microsoft has a monopoly. They can, on a whim, force companies to pay them money, even it means laying off employees: like when they tried to raise fees earlier this year but charitably gave a 6-month stay so companies could rebudget. They illegally attacked Java, fragmented it, and now refuse to support in XP. They forced Apple, a third company, to use their web browser or they would kill a completely unrelated product. This is not a company that you want to leave alone because they promise to be good.
It's time the US got as tough on them as they would on anyone who engages on illegal behavior.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
Have you ever heard about all the patents that exist around MP3 recording? Playback has licensing problems itself (up to $100,000 for a one time payment), and for encoding MSFT would have to pay $5 per copy of WMP8 for full MP3 encoding capabilities.
For the amount of copies Microsoft will sell of XP and will give away of WMP8, that means they're paying $50m (at least) in patent fees to Thomson Multimedia, and then there's all the fees to include Fraunhofer's own encoding engine. They're not going to do that.
The limited MP3 encoder has been removed from the latest build of XP and a plugin will become available. It will not be limited - any idea that WMP8 will automatically limit MP3 bitrate is complete FUD.
This patent encumberment is why Ogg Vorbis exists, of course...
( ie: >CD c:\wi becomes cd:\windows)
This can be done i WinNT/2K as well.
:)
Fire up regedit, search for "CompletionChar" and set it to "9"
This is not a user friendly way to do it, and is not meant to rebuke your post, only as information to other readers
--
Tarald - The Lord of Smeg
Tarald - The Lord of Smeg
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
CDE's already dead, or at least on it last breath (and for good reason).
I think they should split off hardware, legal and marketing. We can call them MS-good, MS-bad and MS-ugly.
I say it's time for people who want new computers to insist on their choice of operating system. Dell and Gateway allow you to select the OS you want to run (for now, at least). For those more technically savvy, we can have a shop build the PC and not install an OS.
I am aware of the pressure M$ puts on PC resellers to inform them when a customer requests a PC with no OS pre-installed, in fact I am counting on it! I want to get a call from Microsoft about potential licensing problems since I refused to have their OS installed on my shiny new system. Then I can explain that I run Linux and *BSD instead of their crap.
Except that this is not the gov't. This was a personal letter from Chuckie to Steve outlining his gripes. This is the same man who is now fighting for a "caller's bill of rights" for an individual's rights when dealing with a phone company. What's next, the diner's bill of rights? Does he have nothing better to do with my tax money than think up useless programs that do nothing but limit my freedom and create more dependence on government?
Do you really want so much power concentrated in one person so that he can single handedly tell you what you can or cannot do with your business? If he can try to tell the phone companies what they can't do, if he can try to tell MS what to do, you can bet he'll tell you what to do at some point.
No, a boycott would absolutely not work. No because the slashdot crowd is only a very small fraction of the computer using comunity... a good part of whom use alternate OS's anyway. The rest of the world either likes microsoft products or at least doesn't know of any alternatives and you can bet they will be lining up at the stores the day it goes on sale. Unfortunately, the average consumer isn't concerned about moral issues (such as Microsofts greed).
Blender And Linux Fan
Open your eyes, the computer makers business is in the dumper and that is having a trickle down effect on software and networking and all throughout the industry. Startups are having trouble getting funding, even Linux companies are in trouble and laying off or killing off divisions. Reality is if XP is released it will generate sales for computer makers and help everyone including the Linux community. Plus MS's dot-zero releases are always buggy, so you'll have lots of things to point fingers at.
Plus who cares about MS in a couple years AOL-Time/Warner will be even bigger than MS and you'll have new target to waste energy on. Energy that you could be using to hack some code and make a real difference.
They've tried before, or half-tried, but never succeeded in doing this, but I personally think it would be a great change if they could finally come out with an OS using the NT/2000 kernel, yet having the game and media capabilities users expect from a basic 98 or ME install.
Yes, it's mostly a cosmetic and packaging issue, but politically if they call it NT or 2000 consumers are going to associate it with all the compatibility problems they had before. I'm sure there will be lots of problems with XP as well, but if Microsoft can convince the majority of users to shift to XP, and stick with their decision, they can eventually stop developing two seperate kernels. The difference between server and consumer OS will become merely a software packaging issue, not a kernel issue.
Of course I have no idea whether they'll really succeed, but I for one would gladly trade some performance and efficiency for such a merge. Of course they stand to make us trade off freedoms as well, if they go to time-based licensing.
That's never going to happen. IE is integrated into every part of the OS for a reason.
It's not like Netscape is still around and in good enough shape for that whole browser thing to matter anyway.
Some type of sanctions would be better than splitting up the company. How many companies that rely on MS software would suddenly migrate everything over to something else if it was? If a company uses Windows and also uses some other MS software they would just be buying the same thing from 2 companies that happen to work together. Then you'd have 2 companies that are incredibly huge and strong instead of one.
sopwath
It's great that your copy of Redgat 7.1 supports that Hp printer. What about my Xerox M750? How about all the Canon Bubble jet printers that I have to fix every 6 months in my family? Hardware support is not as good under Linux as it is for Windows. I know that's not always Linux's fault, but the average user doesn't want to mess with finding the correct drivers or editing some obscure text file.
sopwath
I agree, and I try to do that with all the hardware I buy. The printer was not my choice, but it's still a nice printer. (sorta) sopwath
No, your legal system doesn't have to make a call on whether or not Apple is a monopoly until they start using their position to squeeze other people out of the market. The Land Of The Free can hardly go around making it illegal to be a monopoly, but it does have enough of a sense of fair play to think about doing something about it when people abuse their monopoly position.
Apple haven't done this (err, enough). Microsoft haven't stopped doing this. That's the difference.
There has been a major scientific break-in
Now that it's going to be in WinXP, it's a "compelling" feature. Guess this is another point for Petreley ("Nothing's been invented until MS implements it.")
If a person is guilty are murder then the law has specific punishments for your crime. Only the actual person who committed the murder gets the punishment. When a company is punished for monopoly practices, it is far more difficult to decide the punishment. There are no standard punishments that you can give a company, you must choose the punishment carefully in each case. The ramifications of any action on large company such as Microsoft has far reaching consequences.
The fact is we do not know the nature of Microsoft's punishment. It could be a break-up or it could be changes to Windows. Or they may drop the case entirely like New Mexico. And even though the justice department may want an injunction, they still have to justify it to the courts. And the courts will want good justification with something that is liable to have as large as impact as an injunction against Windows XP. Some very large companies are already committed to XP.
after spending $$$millions on usability testing...
don't you mean making millions on usability testing? the way I see it, I've been paying to beta test for M$ since win3.1.
I don't want to beta test. I use linux.
Fish
Considering that the vast majority of IM users are on AOL or AOL-owned ICQ, I don't think Windows Messanger being included in XP is a good rallying cry against the Evil Microsoft Empire. At least with Netscape, Microsoft's bundling of IE could have put Netscape out of business. I doubt AOL-Time Warner will be closing its doors because Microsoft cut into its IM user base.
Well, it is only protected by copyright. Copyrights are supposed to be temporary protection with the sole aim of increasing the public domain.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Make your mom a nice red hat box. It's easier to install and set up. The last time I set up a windows box it took 4 hours or so and print sevices died within days. Red Hat 7.1 fixed that box.
That's what I did for my wife. She likes it now, and knows that linux compatibility should be a consideration in all future hardware purchases. She also understands that it's easier for me to keep a Debian box up to date, but more work to set up initially.
Neither of us has any inclination to plunk down $350 for XP. The adverts for it are much less than apealing: "integrated" audio, video etc. We've been doing those things for years and don't want to have MS squash us with their crappy versions of stuff we like. As Windows blows harder, we've been able to do less and less with it.
Free tools can do these things and more. Lead them away from old junk that's hard to use and breaks.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I agree. I'm in training now, and we're learning W2k server and XP Pro RC 1 2505, and I'm suprised by how stable it has been for an RC 1. 13 PCs running, and I've seen nary a glitch. The small interface changes are easily learned, and my first impression was that it had a slight look-n-feel akin to gnome or kde in that the windows were easier to look at (softer and more rounded), icons were of a much higher quality, and it was, in general, plentiful in options. Yeah, I know this these are small differences, but it stuck out. After using W2k, the network setup was trivial (and I dig the 'alternate network setup' option), Active Directories is weird, but it's probably 80%+ planning. Some of the bundled stuff(media player, cdr/dvd-ram/dvd support), I doubt they'll be able to compete with my preferred apps. I like the much expanded control panel, and as much as I hate to admit it, the remote assistance features would make it easier to help the family/in-laws with their PC woes. On top of stability, I think the ease of use for XP home will be easier than that of w2k or even 98se.
I was reluctant when the class started, but my opinion has changed now. My opinion also seems to be true for the rest of the class. I'm not as suprised by it as I was by w2k (IMO the best MS OS to date), but it is certainly not complete shit.
Notice I didn't talk about the crazy licensing. Yeah, I'll admit I'm against that, but judged on the merits that end users will be looking at, I think it'll be a good upgrade.
-Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
A good reason to check compability before purchase. Possibly something the community should take more seriously with an easy to use webpage over compatible hardware that is updated with latest drivers, support forums etc.
I sent out an email a while ago to my family explaining why MS XP was bad news. I got several email replies from them thanking me, saying they'll think twice before bothering to upgrade. Then my brother emailed me and asked me to resend it so that he could forward the information on to some of his friends.
Do I think that my efforts alone will have any effect? No, of course not. But if a bunch of people get another bunch of people thinking about the issues that they can relate to on a level they understand, i.e. you may not have access to your computer applications and information you have stored on your computer if you use MS XP, and point to reputable sources that explain the issue, people will think twice. I believe that most people will act conservatively and not want to change what already works for them.
A court order may carry more weight when issued but they are also slowly determined and implemented and more often that not, too late to have any real effect. Grass-roots word-of-mouth can have a profound effect very quickly. Not saying it will or that it will have an effect overnight, just that it has the ability to do so.
Corporations can hire lawyers to keep the government or courts tied up until a product is released and then once it gains market share, the government or court order is too late; however, if consumers won't buy the product, there is nothing the corporation can do.
- tokengeekgrrl
I even bought my dad Neal Stephenson's In the beginning was the command line... so that he could better understand the open source vs proprietary debate.
I think if people are informed as to what they are getting into by people they know, they will not fall prey to MS's marketing machine and want to upgrade or purchase XP.
- tokengeekgrrl
"MS really does know what people want (after spending $$$millions on usability testing), and they give it to them ..."
...
This argument (which I've read many times before) would be a lot more convincing if MS products were, in fact, particularly usable. Which they're not. Much, much smaller companies than MS, with much smaller R&D budgets, have come up with much more usable products than MS has for just about every imaginable application.
"I like Linux as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure Linux is ready for my family to use."
Well, it's getting there, but you're probably right; it's not quite ready yet. OTOH, there are certainly products out there which will perform much better for the average consumer than anything Microsoft puts out. See, there's this company called Apple
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Please oh please, with so many tech enthusiats here on /., please tell me *someone* knows where I can download a crusty old copy of Microsoft Bob. It is undeniably the greatest flop in the history of operating systems/environments, and I've been looking for a copy to situate on a VMware file or a partition right next to Windows 1.01, MS OS/2 Server 1.3, AT&T System V, and all the rest I've collected.
;-)
:-( Crappy reason, but that's how it goes. I just use what does the most, and since I love gaming, Win98SE currently does the most.
What can I say--I'm an ancient OS and old game enthusiast. So, with all the vast resources here, can anyone point me to the fabled Microsoft Bob? And no, a Google search yielded nada in the downloads department. Bob was too useless a program even for the Abandonware people to keep...
But to get back on topic, WinXP won't be a failure--it will bring the moderate stability of WinNT (which is more than enough for Joe and Jane Average) to the gaming compatibility of Win9x/DOS. It is bound to be a success, particularly since OEMs will start shipping most new PCs with it. Like it or not, XP will ship on time and it will have enough new features to get Joe Average jazzed. Remember that just because geeks like us can run cd burning apps, image managers, etc., doesn't mean that the average guy or gal can figure them out or wants to spend the time finding and configuring them--but if it comes with the OS and is dumbed down for the typical consumer, that's a different story. That's why both Apple and MS are integrating functions that traditionally belonged to external apps, into the OS.
And with all the OSes I have to choose from, I use Win98SE modified by 98lite. Not because it's better than anything else--it isn't--but because it runs more games.
The same will be true of WinXP when it comes out, and therefore it will be a success, like it or not. Pragmatism usually wins in the end, although idealism looks prettier.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
The problem starts when you can't remove certain programs, like IE. You were lucky if you could even get the icon off the desktop, but you could never uninstall the software. And IIRC, Kodak's complaint was that they couldn't make their software the default. Like if a user clicks on a JPEG file, MS's program would always come up. The user was then unable to decide what was best, MS made the decision for him. That's what causes problems. Not adding more programs and features, but forcing users to use MS's version instead of a competitor's.
Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
when I read the following paragraph from the article:
"Windows has always been designed as an open platform that creates new business opportunities for many third parties, including some of our toughest competitors," Krumholtz wrote.
I suppose that explains their open api, their open standard for COM, their open file formats, etc. And here I guess I had them figure wrong all along.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
Funny you should mention that... XML is directly descended from SGML (as is HTML), which was created as just such an information exchange device for the U.S. government. I'm just amused by the full-circle aspect of your point...
--Fesh
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
I thought beta implied feature complete? Much of the linux software necessary to make it competetive w/ Windows is pre v0.5.
-Erik
I think the Senator is talking about stuff like this, Windows Media Player 8, Windows Movie Maker, and Digital Photo Support...
So we should prevent MS (and Dell, IBM, Compaq, etc, etc...) from integrating these features and let Apple, who is heavily marketing these features take and take market share until they have the monopoly?
The fact is a computer is an entire product. And the fact is no one is even trying to market a competetive alternative to windows to PC makers. What good will crippling windows do? I forget where I read this but it rings true: Linux's success or failure on the desktop will be driven by the Linux community, not by Microsoft.
-Erik
As much as you open source people hate it, windows XP is its own killer app, add Office suite to it and most people don't need to buy anything other than games for home use.
Most all the drivers people need are built into the OS, just plug in the hardware and it will work. There is CD burning software, zip software, i-net software, messaging software, word processor, basic drawing program, really any basic thing that you need. I hate that people get upset for a company building a product that does what people need. There is no more cost than win2k was so its not like they are even charging more for it. Maybe the result is evil because everyone uses windows but if its because its the product that does the most things well for people can you complain? Its like complaining that ford added more features to its automobile.
So anyways, my point is if you don't want to use windows don't, but advocating a governtment breakup just because the product is best is WRONG and ruins business in this nation.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
But it's not suppost to be THEIR properity forever. Whether is protected by patent or copyright, the term of the protection is suppost to be limited, so that when the developer has received a fair return for developing it, it become public domain. Without some protection, it has been argued that there would be no incentive to develop new works. But, neither patents nor copyright was meant to be perminient nor last as long as it does now.
Five years is probably enough for software developers to extract a profit from their development. Just think of the real innovation that would occur if five years after release it becomes legal to free copy software. Developers would have to make sure that every five years you really see a benefit from upgrading.
The Economics of Website Security
XP is just Windows 2000 with themes and a few other insignificant changes, mostly cosmetic. There are a few bugfixes and more game compatibility is there, as well.
:D
There is no reason to say anything to XP that you couldn't say to Windows 2000. Sure, it might put Stardock (of WindowBlinds fame) out of business, but who gives a shit? Linux has had themes for a long time and nobody ever said that was evil
This Yankee has probably just realized that there's reason behind the antitrust case and wants to seem like he's leading the crusade instead of bandwagon-jumping when it's too late.
Sorry about the offtopic but take into consideration the fact that in the beginning there was no command line. Command line as an interface came much much much later. In the beginning there were hard wiring interfaces (seriously, people actually had to connect wires to change memory), then various switches, then the punch cards came along and then keyboards and printers and later monitors made possible to come up with an idea of a command line.
You can't handle the truth.
I only agree on half of the issue. That part being, Microsoft has used it corporate might to push around a few companies. The part I absolutely DO NOT agree with is that the government should be decideing what can and cannot be bundled with an OS. This is just plain dumb. Limiting what can be bundled with it just not just apply to MS. It could be extended to include other OS's, Mac, Linux, etc. Does the Linux community want to be told that they cannot bundle a given app because it may impead another apps growth. HELL NO. So, think about how judgments rules against Microsoft may affect others.
Not that I'm complaining; if we want to stop Microsoft we need as many allies as we can get.
See http://voteview.uh.edu/antitrst.htm for information on this.
Plus the laptop we use has a winmodem, so we'd have to go and buy some other external modem.
By this I would assume that you are talking about at least two computers? Remember that XP enters the age of hardware profiling... you are looking at $250 PER COMPUTER that you want to "upgrade" (yes I know it's easily crackable (if you have the correct amount of ram)but lets stay legal, ok?). Might be better to pay that extra ISP. Oh, and many laptop winmodems work in linux these days(if you are feeling gutsy, look yours up on the linux laptops page - do a google sarch) If you are just to scared to run Linux then try Win2k or NT.
and I'm sure many others like me
I'm not sure which others you mean. I don't know anyone who has so little respect for their own family that they would invite them to spend $500 plus (at least two machines, right) on the newest version of windows so they can strangle their own freedoms while the second newest version would be more than enough for their needs. I don't tell my family (or anyone else for that matter) that they have anything other than an imagined need for the newest version of windows. I do tell them about what XP will and won't allow them to do, but I guess that's just me.
Politics, Culture, Food?
Get a copy of Office 97, Office 2000, or Office XP. Or get a copy of WindowsXP when it comes out.
The application MS BOB may have failed to take
its percieved market by storm, but the technology
behind it is alive and well in almost all the
MS products coming out now.
Microsoft can't meet their launch date, and this was the easiest way to buy time/press
Judge Jackson was a Reagan appointee with a history of opposition to antitrust law. First Microsoft made him look like a fool by honoring the letter of consent decree while raping the spirit, then Bill Gates made Clinton look open and honest with his video testimony, and then they proceeded to introduce false evidence in his courtroom! If Jackson was biased against Microsoft, it's because of Microsoft's actions in his courtroom. And they don't deserve any consideration for THAT.
--
There is no sin except stupidity -- Oscar Wilde
$50 million is not a lot of money for a company as rich as Microsoft.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
More on #1: A criminal hacker targetting a system could use the activation mechanism against a PC.
And #7. Potential for the US Gov't to get Microsoft to disable the PC of a "troublemaker" in real time.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Remember, copyrights and patents are NOT pro-free market. Monopolies enforced by law are not part of pure capitalism. Something a lot of extreme pro-capitialist cheerleaders forget.
Free market means free for all, not just free for those in power.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
UNIX, DOS, and Windows NT... The good, the bad, and the ugly.
I didn't want to steal your thunder, but fortune was good to me one day... Cheers.
Actually, most people (including the prosecutors in this case, amazingly enough) seem to be missing a large part of the point here.
Microsoft has been found guilty of a crime.
Now, everyone is asking how to "remedy" this. Well, when an armed robber is convicted of robbing a bank, the question isn't "How do we remedy this? Can we just ask him to please not rob a bank again?" The guy is locked up as PUNISHMENT FOR HIS CRIME.
It appears that "everyone" is forgetting the punitive part of this situation. Sure, lets break 'em up. But if we break 'em up, then there are two amounts of break-up to consider. First, break-up to prevent future abuses. Fine. Second, break-up to make them hurt and administer punishment. Where's the punishment phase here? They are, after all, guilty of a crime. Sure, ask them to please not do that again. But also, lets make sure that they have a damn good reason (like fear of further punishment) to not do it again either.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
The problem for me is, XP does include a couple of features that make it better for home use by my family than Win 98, the biggest one being stability.
Windows 2000 is a good bit more stable than 98 SE, from my observations. Why not upgrade to that? Or even (*flinch*) M.E.?
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
Pure capitalism requires
free (voluntary) trade
perfect information
no externalities
I'm a rabid advocate of free trade, because I'm a rabid advocate of liberty. But I can also see how the powerful abuse their power to enslave the weak, and would just as soon do so even more. Need I remind you of the DMCA? The history of the labor movement? These guys didn't just throw people in jail for tampering with their business models, they had people killed!
The cheerleaders for so-called "free market capitalism" really need to be out there campaigning for perfect information and eliminating unpriced externalities, but I don't see that happening much.
To boycott MS is not that easy. For example the company I work for uses third party software for its sales. When this software company tells us that its product needs to be upgraded and it will only support the latest version of Windows, then we are forced to upgrade. Unless a lot of smaller software companies start to spend just as much effort to port to Linux, MacOS, etc. then and only then will people start to break away from Windows.
Until these businesses can function without Windows, then MS will continue to use dirty business practices.
this is the government stepping in to protect our smaller companies. yes you could see it as a bad precedent of government interference, but thats what our government is suppsed to do. thats why we have a the FTC.
if you look at how microsoft in the last few years does their business, they have NO qualms about making their way the ONLY way. its only in the last 18 months that they're realizing they overstepped their bounds, what with the backlash over the win2k ClientAccessLicensing model and things like that.
microsoft needs to learn humility. squishing it into smaller parts isnt the answer. im' not sure what is, but i do like the suggestion about forcing them to release all their source code.
I've read this too. Many references to Microsoft wanted to limit the mp3 bitrate to 56kbps to lean people towards their Windows Audio format or whatever. What I read seemed like they wanted to limit the encoding of mp3s to 56kbps, but not limit the playing of mp3s. I've thought about how the hell they will accomplish this, and thought up some tricky things they could probably do. But it seems like recent things I've read say they are just considering whether to include an mp3 encoder into their Media Player. If they dont, it will be available as a plugin, but either way they will limit it to 56kbps.
I hope any idiot that wants to rip cds to mp3 will be smart enough use a third party program.
Oh yeah, and I wanted to point out that they're not exactly giving away copies of WMP8. :)
I don't think anybody would have anticipated at the time that EVERYBODY and their mother would want to have such a toy
Microsoft anticipated that. Recall their old motto "A Personal Computer in every home and on every desk".
(Gates could have sold his shop to IBM for big money at any point in the 80s. Most businessmen would have, but he thought that per-machine licences would eventually be a verrry good business. IBM's entire marketing strategy for OS/2 shows that they never figured that out at all.)
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
that bringing an end to the legacy 9x/ME OS isn't a good and important thing? That in and of itself is justification enough for Windows XP.
AMEN!
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
DISCLAIMER: This really isn't a flame. I'm a web developer and have a valid opinion regarding this issue.
If netscape didn't die off I bet the internet would be a little bit different then today.
You mean, if Netscape didn't COMPLETELY SCREW UP Netscape 4? Trust me, the death of Netscape had little to do with the MS icon on windows.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Complete hogwash. I was an avid netscape fan until 4.0 came out. Then I started looking at Opera, IE, etc. It was no where near w3c compliant (IE4 had WAY better compliance), it's solution for layout was proprietary LAYER tags (complete junk), it crashed non-stop, and was about 1/2 the speed of IE4.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Microsoft is doing it again, but with Messenger, Windows Media Player, Photo printing services, and other technologies in XP.
Last I saw, OS X comes with CD buring software, a pretty decent movie maker, DVD authoring software, a decent mail client, and much more. Where do you draw the line? Microsoft can add all the value they want to their OS. The problem used to be that OEM's couldn't add/remove certain things. Now they can.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
The boycott, involving a simple refusal to upgrade to Windows XP, would probably have a great effect on what really bothers me, and that is MS foray into .NET. I think the Senator is talking about stuff like this, Windows Media Player 8, Windows Movie Maker, and Digital Photo Support...
.NET empire.
Here is some good "white-hat" FUD from zdnet (whom I always thought was somewhat of a lackey for MS, being descended from PC Magazine, but yay for them for speaking truth). A quote: Among the new features: an Internet firewall, an integrated media player with CD-burning and DVD-playback features, remote access tools, moviemaking and photo-editing software, wireless capabilities, broadband networking and Internet messaging.
The long list of new features potentially puts an even longer list of companies in Microsoft's crosshairs, including Adobe Systems, Apple Computer, AOL Time Warner, Corel, InterVideo, MGI, Netopia, Network Ice, RealNetworks, Roxio, Ulead, Zone Labs, Symantec and as many as 20 other companies.
Oh, and the article reminded me that XP seeks to reduce the quality of MP3's in half (how do they do that? I mean, isn't Winamp Winamp?), and that DVD's won't work with MS Media Player alone.
So, yah, boycott by not upgrading. I read somewhere that people are afraid to buy new boxen because they feel they will lose half their data and capabilities in the transition. Maybe they should be afraid to lose half their identity, their privacy, their rights, and quite possibly their mind (er, BSOD reference here) by upgrading themselves into the
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
With Microsoft dropping support for NT4 next year the corporate world cannot afford NOT to go to 2000/XP. They simply cannot function without their monthly dose of fixes/updates/security patches - and there's only one way to continue to get those: upgrade! The best they can do is negociate a bulk price with M$, clench their teeth and pay. I'm afraid our boycott won't mean much at this level...
Linux quite happily does raw sockets.
Just a thought...
"The quality of life is determined by its activites."--Aristotle
He used to be a Technocrate.
Now he is a HPocrite.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
The appellate court disagrees with you. As they neatly pointed out, this argument is akin to the notion that I should have the freedom to do whatever I want with my baseball bat.
Let me go ahead and address the most likely counter:
Provided you don't break any other laws, you are allowed to do whatever you want with your bat.
Similarly, Microsoft did break anti-trust laws, and is therefore not allowed to do anything it wants with its OS. "It's mine and I'll do what I want with it" is only a justification if the actions taken are already legal.
You agreed to buy their[ OS] when others were offered freely.
Careful where you point that finger. Microsoft doesn't get any of my business; they haven't earned it.
But I think I understand where you're going with this: It's a free market. If I don't want Windows, I don't have to take it. (If this isn't your point, please correct me.) This argument is premised, though, on a truly free market, which doesn't exist (in part because Microsoft has distorted it). Your subject reads, "Let's be objective here." Indeed, let's:
I'm not sure why you quoted my baseball bat analogy, because nothing in your post relates to it, unless it's your position that I can't be guilty of murder because my victim could've potentially run away. Once again: I cannot use the fact that it's my bat as a defense to murder. Similarly, Microsoft cannot use the fact that it's their OS as a defense for monopoly abuse.
Out of 4 rulings, the appeals court threw one out, sent two back to be entirely reconsidered, and upheld one.
Close, but no cigar. Out of the four original charges against Microsoft, Judge Jackson only found Microsoft guilty of three, and only those three were appealed (MS wasn't going to complain about it, and DOJ didn't bother to cross-appeal). Of the remaining three, the appeals court: reversed one (not the same thing as "throwing one out"); sent one back to be partially reconsidered (the existing trial record is kept intact, and there are limits on what further evidence may be introduced); and upheld one.
err... like Mozilla's XPCOM or Gnome's Bonobo (heavily inspired by Microsoft's OLE2)
hang on, if winXP doesn't introduce any useful new features then how can it adversely affect microsoft's competitors?
That's right. Don't just sit there whining about how high your electric bill is. Go start a company to build a generating plant and transmission lines to every home in your state. Don't complain about the lousy trash pickup service at your house. Start a trash hauling service to compete with them. So what if they break both your knee-caps? You're giving people choices!
Microsoft disagreed. Windows XP, which is scheduled for an official launch on Oct. 25, "is designed to bring more choice and options to consumers, not fewer," company spokesman Vivek Varma said, in a statement.
this is a really strong argument i'd say. i mean, who wouldn't want more choices and options!
what choices and options you might ask? well... more.
this is about like microsoft saying "XP is a good product because we said so."
Silly slashdot, sigs are for kids!
Apple gives you enough to get you going, but leaves the best implementation for 3rd party developers
Is that why Apple have much less 3rd party developers ? Besides, QuickTime is far superior than any other 3rd party product.
I hate getting into these kinds of discussions where people say "have you tried this or this yet?" but in this case I can't help it.
Regarding hardware set up and control panels. Have you used Mandrake 8.0? It provides all of this and makes it even easier to use than windows IMO.
For example, my little cousin got a new video card. He wanted me to install it for him because he's lazy and doesn't want to learn anything, so I told him no. When he plugged the thing in Mandrake detected it on startup and even set X's resolution and bitdepth to something more comfortable (he only had an old 2MB cirrus logic so it was running at 800x600 8bpp. It re-configured X to run at 1024x768 16bpp).
The KDE control panel in Mandrake 8.0 also has added sections for configuring and detecting hardware after startup. The only thing I don't like is that a lot of the stuff appears even if you're not root, possibly confusing the user into thinking that he/she can muck with the settings when really they can't.
--
Garett
>Why? I found your comment informative and helpful.
Mainly because they usualy have to do with distro wars or KDE vs. GNOME stuff.
I'm waiting for the usual response from someone that goes "Yeah well RH this" or" "Debian that"...
--
Garett
If the "capitalist system" will survive on its own, maybe the government should stop interfering in interest rates, stop doing social engineering with taxes, stop building tax-supported infrastructure, stop providing national defense, stop regulating consumer safety in goods, as well as food and drugs, stop inspecting rental properties, stop subsidizing public education (which is why we have a workforce that can read and write), stop printing money to be used as a medium of exchange, stop enforcing contracts, stop imposing sanctions on infringements of "intellectual property" restrictions. I mean, this government interference. It's unthinkably horrible stuff, let's let private business just be private!
Is it any wonder why neo-socialists like Ralph Nader get more votes than libertarians? Could it be that most libertarians make no sense, whereas the socialists at least have an emotional appeal to people's better natures? Could it be that you may as well just call anarchy "anarchy" and be done with it? If the government does not exist to assist the public in regulating rogue citizens (like those that direct the activities of Microsoft-- after all, Microsoft does not exist without the people who work there) then what possible purpose does it serve?
The law that Microsoft has run afoul of is required to actually have capitalism work. When you have one company in a market you do not have a free market. At that point, since capitalism can't work, it is useful to have rules and regulations about just what is appropriate... and Microsoft got caught going beyond appropriate. They therefore forfeit their right to continue unimpeded.
I do not have a signature
I'm following this interesting thread and would like to point out that for RedHat 7.1, installing my HP Deskjet was as easy as plugging it in (USB) and running the printtool program. I can't remember if it detected the model for me or if I selected the model from a list. Either way, it was very simple and worked correctly the first time.
Keeping
Careful. It's not as cut and dry as that. Out of 4 rulings, the appeals court threw one out, sent two back to be entirely reconsidered, and upheld one. The one that was upheld had to with monopoly maintenance. For example, Microsoft gave OEMs large price incentives to sign their contract, which determined what the OEMs could and could not add to / remove from the desktop.
Regarding the bundling of software (one of the two being reconsidered), the appeals court noted, among other things, that the lower court may have overlooked the presence of an economic justification for such bundling. In other words, would it be a better deal (money, convenience, etc.) to the consumer to buy the two products together, rather than separately. This was sent back, partly because the lower court simply assumed there was no economic justification. The appeals court cited several examples, including: 1) decades ago, when starters begam to be sold as part of the car. 2) stain protection being sold built in to the carpet. In both of these cases, there was an economic justification, even though it may have diminished an existing market for the separate product. Bundling MSN messenger would likely fall under this category.As for the Kodak issue, it may not be the issue we think it is. The Wall Street Journal wrote a long article about this, making it sound like Microsoft would prevent Kodak's software from being able to run when a digital camera was plugged in. Near the end of the article, the writer finally noted that later betas of Windows XP do not do this. When the camera is plugged in, an alphabetical list of imaging programs is displayed, and the user chooses which one he/she wants to use. It's likely that many people would not have read that far. slashdot readers excluded, of course.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
Folks,
The big question is how fast can the DoJ slap an injunction to stop the distribution of Windows XP Home and Professional Editions? Given the fact that George W. Bush isn't keen on such action, I have my doubts.
I still think a settlement will end up where all the multimedia "addons" to Windows XP will be loaded on a second CD-ROM disc, with the main OS loaded on the first CD-ROM disc. That plus the expansion of the Windows Update page for Windows XP so you have a very large choice of third party multimedia software you can load.
Netscape 4 is proof that ms killed it. Netscape 1, 2, 3, and even 4 where best of the breed when they first came out.
What ms did after netscape 4 was to bundle IE everywhere and kill all demand. Netscape would never make a profit due to MS oversuppling the market. You had Ie with windows, you had Ie with office, you even had ie if you bought a piece of hardware or on magazines cd-roms. As a CEO of netscape would you really pay money to develop a free product? It would serve your best bussiness interest to cut off its staff. Barskdale had no choice but to do this right when IE was everywhere. A severly underfunded design group emerged who just tried to throw things into netscape as quickly as possible. Notice netscape 4.0 was solid but got worse with new release. especially with 4.5 when its staff for browser development was skeletal. Netscape's R&D was effective choped off as well including their future netscape one and upcoming two platforms. Their netscape one platform never could develop maturely thanks to market demaind droping to zero. I bet innovation actually would be quite far ahead of ms didn't steal %90 of the market. They are a monopoly now. Think of the innovation in pagers and cell phones since bell-labs was split up.
The fact that netscape made the fastest and best browsers and then all of the sudden stoped out of nowhere and faded away is proof that it was not product quality that killed it but a netscape that could not longer afford to update its product. I know one engineer from the former netscape team. He said they were cut right when IE was taking over in terms of features and quality. Netscape couldn't afford to update navigator quickly enough because they didn't own another market for to continue funding. MS paid for their browser with windows and office sales. Ms's arguement that they won because they were better is propoganda for the anti-trust trial. But the real reason is because IE alrady won before the trial even began.
http://saveie6.com/
On one side I don't want the government stopping any os release because of possible anti-trust inplications. WHat can ms include in its os? Why should I have to pay for seperate products? What scares me even more is the possiblity of government regulation of Linux itself. For Example RedHat and Debian might have to cripple their own products because they might include software that might criple a competitor. After all, the arguement could be made that MertoX's X11 system and CDE would die because of free bundled alternatives. Redhat/debian both have XFree86 and kde which are free with their distro's. I don't have a high speed internet connection so if its all debundled then I am screwed. I don't want the government to take away my right to the communites right to innovate.
.net as the answer. Anyway what can and can't be included in a os? Sure I don't like the goverment involved but I am afraid of scared OEM's filling out abusive EULA's to cripple microsofts competitors.
.mpg movie file from the web and when you click on it a dialog box pops up asking you if MS passport can charge you $1.50 for using its media.net player! This kind of situation is what microsoft dreams of. After linux is crushed due to lack of drivers and no real competition in media players market, then you must click to play. When will it stop? Infact Microsoft's delaying its next windows os for next year called Windows.NET because of this hearing in the senate. What if you were charged every time you booted your computer? Or could your computer even boot without an active isp connection? No isp, no computer. Thats the windows.NET platform in all that its designed to be. Try to look at the hearing not as what comes with the os but why ms is doing this? They are doing this to kill competitors to screw you all over. Just look at the price of MS-OFFICE PRO for comparison. They almost gave it away in the mid 90's, then it goes up 3x in price, then its the same price for only one year and you must repay every year. For 3 years thats 3k, for a formal $275 product! After they takeover a market via bnulding they will then charge you every time to use it or debundle it and charge a fortune to use it seperately.
The other side is I have seen what happened to poor netscape. If netscape didn't die off I bet the internet would be a little bit different then today. The internets innovation accerlated when netscape was in control. Netscape was develoiping its own api's and way of internet centric programming. I bet ms saw this and created
Whats stopping microsoft for writting an EULA for a driver development kit that states "NO DEVELOPMENT UNDER VIRAL GPL LINUX OR X-11 SYSTEM"?
If this happens then linux is DEAD! No sound, no 3d graphics, NO NETWORK?
Shit, my guess is microsoft will use this and then the rent scheme will come to play after they takes over. Imagine this scenario?
You downloaded a
http://saveie6.com/
M$'s argument that AOL wouldn't open up their IM is silly. They can whine and complain about that, but when they play the same game they have a problem? That's hilarious. XP is an operating system, and not an application. When M$ started making it more difficult to run competitive software on their OS, they had to know they would be getting themselves in deep trouble.
I have VERY intimate knowledge of the Kodak vs. Microsoft spat that is going on right now, and Microsoft is clearly trying to undermine the efforts of Kodak to write an application that would compete with one that is bundled with their OS.
For these reasons, and for the reason that XP is expanding the illegal Microsoft monopoly in the face of the federal ruling with XP, the release should be deemed illegal and blocked.
From the article...
AOL Time Warner (AOL: news, chart, profile) and Eastman Kodak (EK: news, chart, profile) are both based in New York.
Yup, he has seen the light, he has to protect home businesses. What do you think the probability that these companies lobbied this senator and convinced him to take action?
Normally, I don't reply to my own posts, but from the responses so far, I gather that the only good new features are ClearType (ripoff/who cares?) and the .NET framework (only good to MS programmer drones).
I must say that I am now very much compelled to upgrade. Riiiiiiiiight.
Steve Magruder
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Steve Magruder
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
If XP were blocked, the computer industry might not recover at all this year.
It's not the duty of consumers to prop up criminal monopolies or support a business sector that isn't innovating and providing products that are actually useful. Period.
Heck, we need a break from "Upgrade-itis" anyway. :)
Steve Magruder
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
-------
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
And Microsoft is suing the government in response.
bm :)-~
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
What exactly do you mean by "shove IE down peoples' throats'"? Do you mean the way in which they integrated their web browser into their file manager? And if so, do you think the government should also force KDE to seperate the web browsing portion of Konqueror from the file management portion? Or is that somehow okay?
--
Daniel J. Kelly
This in an injunction to stop Microsoft from continuing to brake the law. What is so innovative about XP anyway?
A intervention that delays the release of Windows XP is the only way to get Microsoft to care. Now they can just stall until XP is on the shelves, and after that the horses are out of the barn and there's no point in closing the door.
Trolls throughout history:
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
seems like the golden rule to me, he who has all the gold, makes all the rules. At least MS doesn't have ALL the gold yet.
and from the article:
"It seems the very design of Windows XP is hardwired to preference Microsoft's applications," Schumer wrote in a letter to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. Schumer released the letter at a Capitol Hill news conference.
I didn't know that part was new with winXP, however it's good to see elected officials see it the same way I do.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
I'd do all that but MSFT would use it's monopoly to restrict many a path necessary for success, thus the reason that the government (forgive me for not being Republican) should smack them around and restrict them from restricting me.
After I have received the wisdom of good teaching, I will untiringly teach all people. - The Teachings of Buddha
Hmm..yes..Media Player is clearly a "new" feature - it hasn't been there since windows 3.1
That's why they don't start actual prosecution until they have enough of the evidence. They can't get an indictment and possibly even bail, you walk. That's what innocent until proven guilty means.
Not being completely sure of your nationality, this may not be the operative principle of your legal system (most European legal systems, for instance, build at least a slight presumption of guilt into the process), but it is the principle of the American legal system, and is therefore the only principle relevant to the Microsoft antitrust case.
Which has no bearing on whether or not Windows was to be made a closed system (the debate in the posts preceding yours). If making a closed system were illegal, then Apple would be guilty of this.
Playing devil's advocate, and putting on me flame-proof jacket, I honestly wonder how people can attack Microsoft for putting IE into the operating system and defend Apple for putting iTunes as a standard part of many Macintoshes.
The precedent that is set by deeming stunts such as bundling IE is ludicrous. This implies that adding any feature to your product, if it was previously considered an add-on, is anticompetitive. For instance:
- Any 2-D card maker that came out with a 2-D/3-D card was behaving in an anti-competitive manner to 3Dfx, because it obviated the need for a separate 3-D card.
- When WordPerfect integrated a grammar checker into its software, it destroyed the market for other grammar checkers.
- Netscape, by bundling an email client with the web browser, reduced the need for a sepearate program.
- Most Linux distributions (at least of the boxed variety) contain a commercial web browser, namely Netscape 4.x. However, a demonstrably superior commercial browser (Opera) has yet to be included (as far as I know) with any distribution that includes Netscape. This is the exact analog of the IE-bundling issue.
- When TVs started integrating cable tuners, thus hurting the market for Scientific Atlanta et al, was this considered illegal? No, it wasn't.
The ultimate problem that I have with considering IE to be an antitrust violation is this: the makeup of software packages then becomes an issue in which the government now has near-veto power over.Ultimately, and it pains me to say this, in the name of Software Freedom, the Microsoft IE debate must be opposed.
That said, I do think Microsoft has behaved in an openly anticompetitive manner (especially regarding OEM licensing and such).
Just as a matter of courtesy to your readers... "Sen. Charles Schumer of New York..." ought to read "Sen. Charles Schumer(D) of New York" It's just nice to see those little (D)'s and (R)'s after their names to help with mental geography...
A beginners' guide to Portland, OR?
who cares really? I mean, Lets say Microsoft bought out Netscape or something, and they use Netscape instead of IE, does it really matter? A user can pick whatever browser, instant messenging software, etc they want. If Netscape and AOL want there software to be popular, guess what-- spend some f'n money and advertise it.
If MS makes it that inconvient for you, well, don't use the shitty OS..
If you go to buy a car, and the tires on the car aren't something you like, would you go and get another car that has the tires you DO like? or buy the car and get the tires you like on 'em. Same thing here...
.kb
Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right-- But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better
Looking back on Judge Jackon's comments, I wouldn't hold it against Shumer for being skeptical. Face it: the guy was either extremely biased against M$; or he was extremely biased FOR M$ and thought that he could get them off scott free. Either way, he did, at least for the for the time being. If Shumer succedes, it'll be interesting. I doubt he will though; he has too much stacked against him. Like the whitehouse, just under half the senate, a few battalions of lobbyists, etc. At any rate, I wish him luck. Sooner or later one of Microsofts enemies will take it down. mmm...something to look forward to.
Maskirovka
Not to play the Devil's advocate or anything...
...but if a corperation has the full rights of a person, don't they get to run for office at age 35?
think about it, Almost all microsoft products have been delayed due to one reason or another. Now assuming that the injunction happens Microsoft has a reason why XP is delayed (and they can continue to get rid of last minute bugs!) while still saving their image saying that "We were delayed because of the court injunction".
"still saving their image", I don't they ever had a good image to save anewat man. >:)=
my 2 cents plus 2 more
If it's Schumer so be it. More power to him. Once XP is released you can say good bye to any non MS technology running on windows. The real question is :"When is some brave soul going to insist that the United States government cease subsidizing Microsoft through the buying of their software?"
Who has McCain's number?
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Considering that there are a few moments where a senator or legislator has ever been against a large corporation, IF THEY DO... BE SUSPECT. Chances are they have a friend in some other rival corporation. GOOD CALL. Very fresh perspective. I tend to agree with the post here.
I am curious, because it would be useful to find out disclosed contributions, someone please let me know the site to go to. I am news media, and that information is handy, but politics are not part of my division.
Mediocre is as mediocre does. Even with their near-monopoly on office software, software development software, etc, Microsoft still manages to make some pretty flaky apps.
I'm not sure about you, but Visual C++ doesn't hold a candle to some other development environments-- it's loaded with mysterious "Internal Compiler Errors" (is there an excuse for this?), a rotten interface (I'm sorry, but the window layout is terrible), and despite its "visual" nature, configuration often consists of typing command-line flags into a text box. Yet VC++ is the most commonly used compiler for Windows because MS makes it so much more convenient to use it with their particular libraries and poor APIs (think COM). Other companies have been pulling out of the market because they can't compete with the monstrosity (and because of MS's willingness to compete anyway the can to maintain a monopoly.)
Certainly, MS has poured zillions of dollars into Office and their other apps, but considering the massive, near-guaranteed profit margin, this isn't too impressive. And despite all that development money, they've created software that practically begs to be infected with simple VB/macro viruses created by ten-year olds. That's mediocre.
And please don't get me started on the Office Assistant. Didn't they kill that due to the near-universal response from their users? Why is it back in Office 2000? Why does word insist on capitalizing lowercase i for me by default? Does this company really pay attention to anything their users do? Do they have to?
I don't know about all the legal niceties involved, but this smells to me like the type of prior restraint that is endangering programmers who crack encryption, DVD copy-protection, etc etc. Microsoft's side is the free-speech side in this case, methinks.
Careful. It's not as cut and dry as that. Out of 4 rulings, the appeals court threw one out, sent two back to be entirely reconsidered, and upheld one. The one that was upheld had to with monopoly maintenance. For example, Microsoft gave OEMs large price incentives to sign their contract, which determined what the OEMs could and could not add to / remove from the desktop.
You are correct, and this is my point exactly. This case has not been completely decided yet. But Microsoft is allowed to continue on without restriction or scrutiny while the new judges try to figured out what exactly happed here.
If I am a notorious cat burgler, (A Digital Big Pussy if you will), I have been hunted and chased for many years and finally the authorities gets enough clues to prosecute me. Let's say they found forenesic traces of a material at the crime scene that points to me as the perpetrator. If you combine this other trace evidence they found, it makes me look pretty guilty. I'm probably the culprit but a few more forensic details have to be worked out before the prosecution can continue foward.
While the details are being hash out by the legal beagles. Imagine now that I am left by the authroties to continue freely without being followed on scrutizeded at all any further. Well, my first motivation would be to clean up my trail as quietly as possible. Frame other burglers,put forenisc evidence in other un robbed museums. I then learn from my past mistakes when I got caught and improve my skills in the art of thievery dramtically. Now I leave fake art behind when I steal . My victoms don't even know they are being robbed. I used new tools and steal differnet types of art. By the time the lawyers figiure out what happened, I will have covered my tracks and implemented new methods of covering my tracks.
If my activities were restrained and watched during these procedings I won't have much of a chance to do any of this. Unless the authorties didn't understand the nature of my tactics in the first place. It looks greek to me! press on! nothing to see here!
Another experienced magician can figure out how the others tricks are performed.
Two Towers-Two Worlds.One seeks triumphs and freedom for man.The other deems man unworthy and wrecks them.
Microsoft is guilty. Why should they be allowed to morph thier guilty product during an appeal?
It's like the justic department is saying'I know your are guilty of making a product to enhance your monopoly but it's okay to keep selling it and improving your monopoly position while we decice how punish you." HELLO! "Yes, are a mass murderer and are guilty. You may still practice and improving your murdering skills while we decide what to do with you." Am I off base here?
Two Towers-Two Worlds.One seeks triumphs and freedom for man.The other deems man unworthy and wrecks them.
I prefer Linux, and I use Linux whenever I can, but I still believe that Microsoft should have the freedom to do whatever they want with their OS. If they want to hard-wire it to run only their software, then so be it. (How does it differ so greatly from Apple or Sun writing their OS just for their hardware.) If they want to leave it open, then so be it. We have the freedom to decide whether we want to go with the bondage that comes with a proprietary system such as Windows, or with a liberating system such as Linux. It is our choice to make. (How would we feel if Linux were similarly restricted, even in the presense of alternatives.) Microsoft, though oppressive, to some extent, should be given the freedom to do whatever they want with their product. If we don't like it, we can always choose with our dollars and allegiance.
Of course, there are always those that want to eat their cake and have it - those that will ignore Linux, but will try to be as evil as Micro$oft in limiting their freedom. In that sense, we may as well be Communists. That is only hypocritical. You are no better when you deny them of their freedom to "innovate" as they desire. If you don't like them, you have a choice, and you have the freedom to go somewhere else.
As for me, I'm just so glad that we have Linux, we have an alternative, we have someone to keep Micro$oft a bit more honest, and we have somewhere else to go. I agree that Micro$oft does not care about the interests of the common person, but instead of wasting precious time chasing them around, I believe it is much more important that we put our efforts into ensuring that there is a viable, competitive, publicly-specified, and Free alternative.
I use GNU/Linux. I prefer Linux. But I see little wrong in Micro$oft packaging *their* Web Browser with *their* Operating System.
Going against that is like saying that Apple or Sun cannot put an Operating System on their hardware, or that General Motors cannot put both an engine and a seat in their cars. WHAT NONSENSE.
Microsoft is only a monopoly because people have foolishly chosen to agree to marginal software and oppressive licensing schemes, even in the presense of more stable, robust, and (Read:) FREE (as in speech and beer) alternatives.
I don't know about all the legal niceties involved, but this smells to me like the type of prior restraint that is endangering programmers who crack encryption, DVD copy-protection, etc etc. Microsoft's side is the free-speech side in this case, methinks.
Me seconds. Many times over.
All the news as of late, all the apparant holes popping up in the product activation, and the latest - a Senator challenging Microsoft's media player.
Not only that, but with respected tech sites churning out articles like this, a lot of people are bound to be turned off.
In my opinion, (yea, I know - dangerous) Microsoft tried too many tricks too soon. In the next year or so is when linux is really going to have a chance to break out and rain down upon the masses. I'm not a linux zealot, but I just see this as a real oppurtunity for the OS to really get out there and make itself known to even the most casual computer user. Especially with backing from IBM...I would IBM probably has a pretty good hate on for Bill and m$ for the whole OS/2 deal years back.
Hey, that's just my .03, flame away!
Caino
Don't touch my .sig there!
Are you saying that this guy is literally a sheep. If so, that's so amazing. I really would like to know more about this. I read once that they hooked these thingies to a cat's eyes and were able to see what a cat saw on a tv screen or something like that. I imagine that they could do the same with a sheep. Of course, sheep have wool and cats don't. But, I don't suppose that would matter as we are talking about eyes and not skin covering. I really like wool better than fur. It doesn't seem to come off on your couch as much. My dog's both have fur and when they sit on my couch, they leave a lot of it there. I will then go and sit on my couch and some of it gets on my pants. If my dogs had wool, that wouldn't happen so much, and besides, I could blame it on wool coming out of my pants and say that they were cheap. Ok..Ok..my pants aren't made of wool. They may be nylon. I don't think that nylon comes from either cats or sheep. I wonder where nylon comes from. I doubt that it grows. Maybe it's a mixture of two or three things. When I was a kid...and even now sometimes...and I would go to GodFather's pizza, I would mix all of the drinks together and make my own drink. Maybe this is like nylon. I don't really know, but I do like to mix all of the drinks at restaurants. I really appreciate the fact that they don't enforce any kind of rule restricting this. I think that if I did this with bottled drinks, the store owners and employees would get mad and probably charge me for all of the bottles instead of what was left in the bottle I took. I don't know any store owners, but I do know a few...sorry...where was I? That's the problem with this site in particular. I remember hearing about an operating system...I can't remember if it was linux based...called Microsoft Bob. This site reminds me of Microsoft Bob. I wish that they would include a hack that let you rename that operating system to Microfoot Bill. I know a guy named Bill who had small feet and I think it would be a good practical joke to name something after him and include reference to his small feet. If operating systems were more friendly to practical joking, I wouldn't have thought of that last thing, I would have just done it. Like that guy on SNL, he just did it. I don't remember why or what his name was. I think that it was Perry Ferrel. No, I think that Perry Ferrel was married to the guy from that band who killed himself. I don't think that people should kill themselves. I think that rock singers do a lot, but this isn't really about rock singers. I knew a singer once. He was attracted to men from the waste down and women from the waste up. I wasn't under the impression that you could mix the two so I suggested a...
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor
Sad to say boys, but you've all forgotten that Windows BELONGS to Microsoft and they have every right to make it as closed a platform as they'd like.
Actually, no, the courts say they don't. If they want that right, they should do business in a different country. You may argue whether anti-trust law is a good idea, but we do have it here in the US, they are violating it, and I don't think that we're looking at civil disobedience on Microsoft's part here -- just good old-fashioned megalomania.
I don't believe that the government should have a say in how companies go about doing their business.
Really? Should businesses be able to engage in libelous advertising? Pollute indiscriminately? Kill people who protest their actions? Can them and sell them as food? Where do you draw the line?
The whole point of having a government is to set up a power structure to compete with the power structure of business -- I think it was Jefferson (?) who talked about government balancing the "monied interests". We should be very careful when we limit the freedom of corporations, but we should still be willing to do it.
Ah, but you forget... the are running linux now!
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
of course. let's hardwire our os to only run our software. see you get *more* choices. remember that less = more!
in other news, i found this commercial that scares the living daylights out of me. You'll see why.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Cool!
;-)
I didn't realize that the US had annexed "The Australian Capital Terrority," where they were doing that Debian project
Maybe I can get Fosters cheaper now...
It's just another way of looking at Microsoft's activation scheme that highlights the potential problems that no one has seemed to have thought much about yet.
1. Virus/trojan authors could take advantage of the activation mechanism as a way to disable a PC.
2. DDoS authors could take advantage of the activation mechanism as a way to attack microsoft's activation servers.
3. Warez crackers could take advantage of key generation programs to forge activations for different license keys. If your key is chosen, then you would face deactivation and resulting hassle of trying to convince Microsoft that you did not warez your copy.
4a. Risk of security holes in the activation process itself, as you mentioned.
4b. Risk of security holes in the activation servers. The windows update server was just infected by Code Red, after all. That means the server was open to an full-control exploit for over a month.
You might not want to use Windows Update until Microsoft announces that they have audited the server, since Windows Update uses an ActiveX control that has full access to your PC.
5. Potential for Microsoft to force upgrades on their whim by being able to disable every copy of XP.
6. Potential for Microsoft to abuse their ability to deactivate particular installs of XP for political or other harrassment reasons.
This is not a direct benefit to consumers and is a protectionist action on behalf of other corporations located in NYS, like Kodak.
Perhaps someone should point out to Sen. Schumer that the consumer edition of XP will include a remote deactivation backdoor placed in the OS by Microsoft that could be used to leverage their monopoly position to force users into unnecessary upgrades at Microsoft's whim.
Considering Microsoft's "stellar" security record, even Sen. Schumer should be able comprehend the danger of having a backdoor capable of deactivating your OS in so many voter... err... users machines...
"Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee has asked state prosecutors to seek an injunction blocking the launch of Windows XP. His reasoning?
The bribe^H^H^H^H^Campaign Contribution check from Bill Gates must have bounced.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power - Benito Mussoli
Read the findings of fact from U.S. v. Microsoft. Microsoft, in an attempt to prevent IBM from shipping Lotus SmartSuite with their computers, conducted an audit, and refused to license Windows 95 to IBM until the audit was resolved. The story begins at paragraph 115. In paragraph 125 we see that Microsoft extorted $31 million from IBM.
Maybe you should all send him a email to apologize and ask him if he's feeling all right...
It's time the US got as tough on them as they would on anyone who engages on illegal behavior.
I heard they're starting to get tougher but taking it slow, you know, like starting with young Russian fathers and such, then working their way up.
Funny, I don't believe Microsoft has ever forced anyone I know to pay them money, not even my company.
Posted using Mozilla 0.9.2 running under RedHat Linux 7.1.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I think everyone here needs to go back and review what they forgot from CS 101.
nohonor "There is no honor among thieves"The senator isn't the only one seeking injunction .... this CNet article indicates that InterTrust is also seeking injunction in addition to their lawsuit against MS.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
AFAIK, history has not proven anything regarding 100% free markets, since a truely free market has never existed, save for maybe some very primitive settings. In a true free market, consumers have ALL the information about ALL the products, and the producers pay ALL costs associated with making thos products.
Clearly, big monopolistic entities (RIAA, MPAA, MSFT to throw out some bad 4-letter words) want nothing more than to keep information about the true nature of their products and business practices FROM us.
As for the availability of information, that would probably include open-sourcing software, but anybody who used the code would have to pay a fee to cover a fraction of the R&D costs. Therefore both companies making windows CDs would be putting out the same costs and actually competing. The money would go to the most efficient producer, not the one who got the lucky break or grabbed all the patents first.
Of course it doesn't work that way, which is why big entities corrupt the market, because as soon as they get big enough, they set up safeguards to ensure that they won't fall from power.
C) Develop for Windows where our limit to growth would always be Microsoft coming in and competing with anything worthwhile we might create.
If you're a commercial software developer, the choices were pretty grim. So we chose the least of the 3 evils -- C. We designed our primary product to be delivered as a subscription in which new features could be introduced into it immediately rather than havign to wait for the next major version. Thus, if Microsoft or Symantec or Mijenix (now Ontrack) or some other large utility vendor decided to compete with us, we could stay ahead of them. So we adopted the slogan "Innovation on demand" and went forward.
Look, what are the vast majority of those people running on the hardware they're making so cheap all by themselves? Sure, Windows is crufty, but it's also ubiquitus. And Bad Boy Bill made the decision to stay out of the hardware game, so the free market is competing to make cheap, reliable i386 parts. Also, we're talking about XP, which is a step away from the legacy MS-DOS architecture, being based on a brand-new (and relatively stable) kernel.
What are you going to play with that force-feedback joystick? I own one, and I play Mechwarrior 4, Falcon4, Combat Flight Sim 2, and FS2000 on it. Most games are still designed for windows, all hardware is designed for windows, and that's part of why hardware is cheap: the gamer market.
You're performing a monstrous feat of doublethink if you blame MS for making hardware more expensive. Let's not lose clarity in our blind hatred for the enemy, when in fact MS is not the enemy at all, but simply a giant dinosaur which is destined to be out-evolved.
But what if Microsoft were to flounder? Does the open-source crowd really want that?
The wintel gravy train is responsible for affordable i386-based hardware. Compare Wintel to the only existing equivalent: Apple. (though we all still shed bitter tears now and then for the ill-fated Amiga) Years after PCs broke the sub-$1000 market, Apple is still catering to moneyed non-geeks (How many rich, non-geek kernel coders are there?). Windows should be seen as a boon to the efforts of the open-source movement if the basic precepts of OSS are true: namely, that OSS products will steadily, inexorably improve until they eclipse Windows in its own market space, on the same hardware. Until that happens, Microsoft is keeping the hardware cheap by putting it in the hands of non-geek consumers. I say, go forth, XP, and further fuel the demand that keeps Moore's Law happening!
Imagine a world where Windows hasn't beaten the Mac and Apple has been running the show all this time. Motorola/MacOS is still slower and more expensive than the wintel platform. Without independant hardware vendors releasing specs, development on the Linux drivers would be much slower. Also, think of all the geeks who have had access to a pseudo-unix command line all this time, and especially before 1995. There are certainly other factors I'm not thinking of as well.
I know I'm jumping into the furnace when I say so, but Windows should be acknowledged at least for its place in making cheap computers economically viable.
I think our friend the anonymous coward meant it sarcastically. Washington's actions seem to say "We are so lame, we think other OS's need our help when competing against M$!" Linux will achieve total world dominations, without Congress's help.
If KDE is a monopoly, and it is "integrating" the two things because it will kill off their competition, then yes it should be seperated.
.... are all heading in the same direction, and I can choose to use any of them (buy SuSE, get KDE; buy RedHat, get GNOME) readily, then no, that's acceptable.
If on the other hand, GNOME and KDE and
Stupid post. You forget cost of entry. I have a shitty 56K modem (that mostly gets 44K). I'm not going to download 10-20M to get a different browser. Fortuntely for me, I use Linux which usually has Netscape on the distribution. (And no, it doesn't crash on me. IE on Win crashes more).
If I could get AOL to include NS on their CDs, I would, and I would go get one of those CDs and install it.<br>
No I wouldn't go to cleveland (from Boston) to get new tires.
If people think XP is worth their money, they will buy it, regardless of the miniscule effect their individual purchase has on microsoft's behaviour. Boycotts assume that people, in mass, will behave in an altruistic "for the good of everyone" way, and that has been demonstrated time and again to not be reality.
What does Schumer get out of this?
1)"points" against the pro-business bush republicans.
2)"points" in his own state politically, especially for sticking up for Eastman Kodak. Kodak has been hurting recently, and also happens to lie in a somewhat Republican-leaning Rochester area - an area that relies a little too heavily on Kodak.
So, somewhat ironically, scores partisan points within the Democratic party for being anti-bush (anti-bush == anti-microsoft) while perhaps winning a few republicans in UpstateNY because he's sticking up for their company.
They should delay it as a service to fools who are going to buy it before service pack 37.
think about it, Almost all microsoft products have been delayed due to one reason or another. Now assuming that the injunction happens Microsoft has a reason why XP is delayed (and they can continue to get rid of last minute bugs!) while still saving their image saying that "We were delayed because of the court injunction".
So according to the Sherman Act all this talk of divestiture and behavioral remedies is really just a waste of time, seeing as a maximum penalty for MSFT is a $10 Mil fine. Any ideas on how all these other punishments got cooked up if there is no basis for them in the law?
The power and stability of 'nix plus the negative learning curve of a Mac, feature rich and getting better every day. Perfect for your family. Windows is NOT the only viable solution. And don't whine about the cost. You probably spend more on potato chips in a month than the diff between a basic Mac and a functionally similarly configured PC.