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KDE 2.2 Released
Well, we had covered it being tagged last week, and now, after a hardware problem with one of the main download servers, KDE is ready for download. Except that you'll probably want to go to the mirrors to actually get it. You can get more about it about it from Dre's dot.kde post, or you can read the KDE announcement - and have a good time!
WHAT !?!?!?! There's still people left that don't run Linux???!!! ;-)
From what I hear there are some speed improvements in KDE 2.2.
But aside from that comparing Win2K GUI speed to KDE/Qt GUI speed is pretty pointless at this time. The real problem isn't KDE or Qt themselves but the graphics platform that they are running on, X. Not that X "sucks" or is "bloated" but the simple reason the the drawing architecture, Xlib, does not easily allow for hardware accellerated graphics routines. Sure, there are drivers for XFree86 that have these accellerations but they are available only where they fit, mainly in the Server code, they are not accessable from the client applications due to the Client/Server design of X. Accellerated Raster Op's, strech blitting, bit blitting are all unavailable to your client KDE/Qt applications, things that win32 API's can take for granted. If you really want to see the GUI speed of KDE/Qt or even Gnome/GTK+ improve you should think about giving support to Keith Packard's Xrender extensions to the X protocol (what's resposible for the anti-aliasing available now) or a port of the graphics API's to something like DirectFB.
Was your comment in reply to my comment about Cookbook? Because users.pl says it was, but it's not displayed that way.... anyway, I'll assume it was. :)
:).
:).
Cookbook is currently in KDE CVS, in the kdenonbeta module. I've got some older versions and screenshots up at http://www.mcs.kent.edu/~dwatson/cookbook.html, but the webserver has been screwy, so it may or may not work.
If you want to latest version, you can get it from CVS. It should be fairly stable, despite the fact that I'm madly adding new features to make it more like what I want
You'll need KDE2.2 for it to work properly, though, because I use KDEPrint. Or you could just hack the makefiles and remove the #define QPrinter KPrinter
Now that is has been discovered that porn comes in even clearer and sharper with kde 2.2, there's going to be a HELLOVA lot more people downloading KDE now :)
Seriously, kudos to you KDE Developers!
BTW: I never stress about the gooey keyboards... i have a ton in the back... i change then every few hours ;)
Join the TWIT army now!
yeah, I'd kill for that functionality too! I'm thinking this could be scaled up to a per-site profiling system where the useragent, javascript and other options are all defined for each site. That way it could be more easily extended to handle other often abused features that are so handy to turn off (javascript alert() calls, Flash, etc)
Hey - we don't ALL use the (stupid, IMO) K* naming convention. I'm actually David Watson, the author of Cookbook, which is currently in kdenonbeta, but will be moving to the hopefully soon-to-be-created kde-apps module.
If I had used a K in it, it would have been either KCookbook, or Kookbook - the first is sorta cheesy and the second is just plain stupid.
Of course, my name isn't exactly creative, but neither was Recipes for Windows (tm), the program from which I drew much inspiration.
Konqueror already has the ability to allow or not allow Javascript on a per-site basis,a nd also has an option to disable the Javascript window.open function globally, but what I'd really like to see is the ability to disable window.open on a site-specific basis as well.
Popup windows are annoying on some (okay, most) sites, but a few require them in order to make use of the site.
-Karl
Well, luckily, KDE is so far ahead of GNOME in pretty much every respect, that even in Redhat's lobotomized form, it's STILL better than that GNOME hack job.
Now that I've installed it and played for a hour...
.kde files in their home before it would use KDM instead of WDM. I like the Preferences Wizard.
1) Was KDESUPPORT not upgraded? It wasn't in the Mandrake binary section or the source section. They should either include it or put a link so people who AREN'T UPGRADING can download it (if it is still necessary).
2) After install ROOT logged in fine, but my users had to kill some
3) First Crash! Something (KDE Daemon) poped up with a SEGFAULT and then disappeared. Nothing seemed to be affected.
4) It is faster and more responsive. I like the new eye candy. Automatic antialiasing (if you turn it on in the Wizard) and everything looks SMOOTH!
5) Better compatibility with some of the web sites I visit. No problems any more for my kids when playing Flash games on Disney.COM. Now if I could figure why half the sites (like Disney) find my Flash plugin and the other half (like Cartoon Network) DON'T, I'll be happy.
Over all, a nice desktop. A very good first impression.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
I have no doubt it will be in 3.0.x, but it's unlikely for 2.2.1 for two reasons:
1. There are no doubt going to be many many "handy features" not hard to implement. It's like a graph...a few big features can take the same amount of time as a whole lot of little features.
2. The HeUnique probably already knew that, and therefore was probably asking for additions for 3.0.x.
Moral of the story? Think BIG! It'll be quite some time before KDE3 will come out, and there will be a lot of man-hours available for use in making the transition.
What's this Submit thingy do?
It used to be on http://www.mosfet.org/themeapi
But Mosfet removed that page...in some moment of rage
A suggestion for people who would like to run KDE apps without running the KDE environment:
When I run Konqueror in a plain X session... after I quit Konq, there are still many instances of kinit running. Could these be made to quit when Konq quits?
Thanks.
A diskless X terminal runs only the X server. It is irrelevant what window manager and apps you are using -- the system requirements would still be the same. (All the apps, including the window manager run on the app server). So, even 32 MB would do. The only thing you need to ensure is that the client and network are able to handle the resolution and color depth you want to use. Obviously the higher the resolution and color depth the more bandwidth and client resourses it will take, but still at 1280x1024x16 bit color a low-end pentium with 32 MB RAM and 100MB/s network would do just fine.
Increase scalability. Apart from RAM, KDE spawns a bunch of processes. On a workstation this isn't a problem, but scale it up to a several hundred users on a large box and things can get a bit ugly. (Haven't pushed it this far - extrapolating for a handful of trial users.) Do you really need so many kdeinit jobs?
Apparently you are not aware of shared memory. If two users run the same app, they will not use twice the memory. The program text is shared among all instances, only data is private. In fact using a one big box shared amoung a number of clients is a lot more efficient than lots of less-powerful workstations both in terms of memory and CPU utilization: 90% of the time a workstation is idle (a secretary types a document; a developer types code, etc.) and 10% of the time it is too slow for a given task (start word processor; compile program, etc.)
As for the kdeinit processes they each run a different thing. They are not copies of the same process. The explanation I heard is that kdeinit is used as a wrapper because Linux's ld works slow for C++ apps. (Somebody in the know, please post a more detailed expanation about it.)
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
I've been using Win2k for nearly a year. Apps crash but not the OS. Your predicament like a case of PEBKAC to me.
Now that there is a link for mirrors site, no one can post that and get modded up to 5.
Europe:u b/ kde/
u x/ kde
p ub /kde
ftp://gd.tuwien.ac.at/hci/kde
ftp://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/mirror/kde
ftp://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/MIRRORS/ftp.kde.org/p
ftp://ftp.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de/pub/unix/kde
ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/Lin
ftp://sunsite.auc.dk/pub/X/kde
ftp://ftp.dataplus.se/pub/linux/kde
ftp://ftp.dit.upm.es/linux/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/
Asia:
ftp://ftp.au.kde.org/pub/kde
ftp://casper.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/mirror/kde
ftp://linux.sarang.net/mirror/desktop/kde
Africa:
ftp://ftp.sun.ac.za/sites/ftp.kde.org/pub/kde
ftp://ftp.na.kde.org/pub/kde
America:
ftp://ftp.matrix.com.br/pub/kde
ftp://mirror.chpc.utah.edu/pub/kde
ftp://ftp.rutgers.edu/pub/kde
Now, could anybody tell me when the debian (potato) packages of the 2.2. will be available?
Make It Secret . Free JavaScript implementation of AES for your browser
It's a shame this won't be available for Debian 2.2.
Yes. Read the README file.
You need to install the stuff from the non-kde directory. It contains libraries that are needed by KDE (but not part of KDE).
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
try this one:
- 08 -15-005-20-NW-KE
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001
It's not really like that. The decision to break binary compatability was based on the desire to use new features in Qt 3, and encouraged by the fact that gcc 3.0 is going to disrupt BC anyway. Given that decision, you may as well take the opportunity to patch up API's that could use some further improvement.
KDE should have something similar to red-carpet (www.ximian.com) where it notifies that there are necessary/important updates for the machine, it would be handy to have this app run at user defined times (ex: nightly, whenever im logged into my isp...,etc) then if it does find updates/fixes, it could promt the user if they want it installed, if so, they must enter su password...etc..etc..etc
You think that was complete list of C++ features? You are probably the only C++ bashing loser who hasn't heard of "class". I can understand not having heard of templates if you're in middle school, but classes?!
I tried this..but couldn't seem to grab anything. What line did you use, adn what apt-get request did you use to grab it? (kdebase, or something else?).
I'm compiling them now....but it'd be much easier with packages:)
THanks, Jon:)
Yes. That's how I do it, too. Nevertheless, what he is talking about sounds like a handy feature, and probably wouldn't be very hard to implement.
Disclaimer: I use both KDE and GNOME at the house. I have several computers, and I have my computer-illiterate girlfriend using KDE 2.1 with little problem.
There is one feature that GNOME has that KDE doesn't which, quite honestly, is the reason I use GNOME as *my* primary desktop. And it's the silliest thing, and perhaps the easiest to implement into KDE, yet I've asked a few times and even spoke to a few KDE developers at the ALS last year about it, and I've yet to see it arrive.
It's the desktop pager/guide. The desktop pager in GNOME (Desk Guide 0.4 in the version of GNOME I'm running now) is much more configurable. You can have multiple workspaces and these workspaces can have multiple windows (configured by the colums/rows option in the GNOME control center).
Thus, if I wanted to duplicate the multiple-workspace desktop a-la KDE - then I would pick 4-6 workspaces and configure these workspaces to have 1 row and 1 colum, hence having just the viewable screen real-estate for each workspace.
But, I don't particularly like that configuration. I want one big workspace with multiple rows/columns, so I can drag stuff to the side and it be on a different row/column of the same workspace. And I don't think KDE allows me to do this, hence I use GNOME.
Now, I know that is silly, but that is why I use GNOME over KDE as my primary desktop. However, I am impressed with KDE 2.x and I use Konq as my primary browser. So, if that could be squeezed into 2.2.1 or 3.0, I'd love it.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Try updating your ports! ;)
BeOS was developed on 66MHz PPCs with 16MB of RAM and it shows. The damn thing runs like hell on mediocre machines, and even faster on faster ones.
:-)
It was also far from what it is today, no journalling filesytem, very crude "Media Kit", very little drivers, horrible VM (still does), etc. etc..
I went back to PR2 on my BeBox, since the latest release (R5) is about 50% slower for most things. Of course driver/application support on PPC is even more pathetic than x86 (imagine that) so it really doesn't matter. The once glorious and ultra-hip BeBox is now a SSH terminal box
Yes it even needs it's own HUB since no 100Mbit network card works in it...not that the network kit would benefit from it.
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
You can add this yourself if you want to. Look for an applications XMLGUI definition file (something like konquerorui.rc) then add the tag to the Menu tag you want to be able to tear off. You could try adding it to the global ui_standards.rc file if you want to do this to all your apps.
Rich.
Win2k??? OSX is the desktop you are looking for. It's unix based, has a terminal, has a consistant GUI, and you can run Xapps if you really want to. This is the best of both worlds. You lose that with win2k. If you're going to jump ship for a closed-source OS, at least go towards one that is semi-open source and one that has a unix underbelly.
.NET will be heavily integrated with blackcomb at it will suck to be you. The blackcomb desktop looks like an internet kiosk terminal for kindergarteners. It's really pathetic.
I am truly amazed by OSX. Apple has made an easy to use unix and that is fantastic. KDE and GNOME will continue to plug along and so will M$. If neither of the two leading desktops do the trick for you, then at least stay with unix. Don't give M$ more marketshare. By all means, use the right tool for the job, but now that Mac OSX has some real balls, at least switch to that. You'll have a much better desktop experience than with win2k... Not to mention the direction M$ is headed.
I'm considering OSX as my next desktop. I've seen XP and I've see previews for the next windows called "Blackcomb." I seriously detest the direction windows is going. Win2k may be alright for now, but when the upgrade treadmill turns on, you'll be running and getting nowhere.
The "moron" user is what's going to be left using windows and that's the majority of folks out there. Power users are going to jump ship. I'm sure by that time, Linux will be much much farther along. OSX will probably be OSXI and will be light years ahead of everyone. I know I know, Mac hardware is expensive, yada yada yada. I thought the same for years. Now I want to shell out the dough to get one. Why? Because of what I get in return. A consistant UI, unix, commercial apps, open source apps, and much more.
Unix on the desktop is here. It's called Mac OSX. KDE is getting there and is very nice. Give Linux a couple of years for it to be easy as pie. M$ has forever lost my trust and I can say with absolute certainty that win2k will be the last M$ OS I'll ever own.
If you like vim, here's something neat in kate:
press ctrl-m, and a little dialog appears, in that, you can type sed-like commands such as:
%s/porn/pr0n/g
It still can't figure out how to limit you to a selection, but it does support case insensitivity (append 'i') and, of course, by removing '%', it'l only operate on the current line.
I'm concerned about what a fucking idiot you are, so please shut the fuck up.
Would you trade speed of compilation for standards compliance? That would be complete stupidity. GCC 3 is a godsend for C++ developers, and a firm base for future speed improvements.
Besides, standards compliance is not GCC 3's only feature. It is also one of the most portable and retargetable compilers out there (perhaps THE most), which was always the main killer feature.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
You're right, it was Bruce. I knew it was some important Debian guy who was at Pixar. :)
Have you ever seen the difference in appearance between LotusWorks and Microsoft Works, for example? Or borland programs and ms programs, etc.? Just because one dominates doesn't make it a standard. Microsoft has two toolkits in its OWN developer, the Active Template Library and Microsoft Foundation Classes. Microsoft's OS's better organization is an illusion. It would be a good idea to create the same illusion with Linux, though, perhaps having standard themes for Qt and GTK, and a common framework for launching the open, save, colorpicker, etc. boxes from the running desktop.
Here are some ideas:
- Improve overall responsiveness, i.e. decrease load times, memory usage, etc. I understand that a lot of work is being done in this direction - which is very good (as opposed to Gnome, SCNR) -, but KDE still isn't there.
- Configuration/setting menus are still confusing for newbies and experienced users alike because they're spread over many menus (especially in konqueror) and sometimes seem to be part of the application, sometimes part of the configuration center.
- Interface redundancies (i.e. multiple menu methods for the same functions) are also confusing, or it should at least be possible to turn them off. (It would be great if right-click context menus could be turned off, for example.)
- Allow to configure KDE as a web browser-centric desktop without the classical floating windows + launchbar paradigm. It is already possible to start X11 with konqueror as the window manager (put exec konqueror into
.xinitrc), run it full-screen and access applications only as konqueror-embedded parts. (Like the konqueror-embedded terminal, for example.) Hardly anyone has realized how f***ing great this is! I know many computer-newbie user who can handle the Web, but can't handle classical WIMP GUIs, and prefer web-based applications simply because they find them easier to use. With konqueror as a framework for browser-based/-embedded applications, GNU/Linux could make real inroads into desktop computing! (You sell people a computer that "as simple to use as a web browser".)
- For people like me: Allow to toggle icon buttons with text buttons
- And, finally: Create a framework that maps the shell/console onto the desktop. Imagine GUI wrappers for all classical Unix console applications (grep, cat, sed, find...) which allow to toggle options by GUI menus AND build pipes GUI-style, i.e. by dragging pipes between icon representations of command-line tools with the mouse. Steal from visual programming environments (like MAX or, available for GNU/Linux, PD) to achieve this.
FlorianRemember that Alan Kay/Xerox PARC invented the GUI to make average users capable of programming, and that Apple & Microsoft left out half of the concept when they brought it to mainstream computing. Free Software should do better here.
gopher://cramer.plaintext.cc http://cramer.plaintext.cc:70
libcrypto.so.0.9.6 is needed by kdelibs-2.1.2-41
libssl.so.0.9.6 is needed by kdelibs-2.1.2-41.
I was getting ready to compile my own packages when the 2.2 anouncment came out.WindowMaker allows you to embed both KDE and GNOME menus in your WindowMaker menus.
What's this Submit thingy do?
For a great visual effect, check out the Liquid style engine which was designed for this version of KDE. I'm running it now, and it looks beautiful:
http://www.mosfet.org/liquid.html
-Karl
but a nit nevertheless: with KDE 1 I could change the location of the title bar buttons. In particular, I hate the default location of the "X" button, right next to the min/max buttons. Maybe the godz in Redmond think that's a good place to put it, but it's just plain wrong. Under OS/2 there was a utility that placed a closing "X" anywhere on the title bar, and for me that was on the left side, to the right of the menu button.
Now I find in KDE 2 there's no way to change the button location without changing the eye candy. The nicers ones put the "X" on the right, and only the uglier ones put it on the left, like RISC/OS. Is there a way (undocumented?) to change the "X" button to a more natural (for me, at least) location?!
For example: I have two systems in my office and a home directory that is shared among them (and all the other systems here, some of which may someday run KDE on entirely different system architectures). One system is running RH6.2 (with KDE 1.1.2). The other system is a dual-boot (well triple-boot if you count W2K): Red Hat 7.1 (KDE 2.1.1) and Mandrake 8.0 Freq2 (KDE 2.2 alpha2).
I'm usually logged into both of my systems at the same time all day long, but I'm afraid to use KDE on both of them at the same time. As a result, I keep one in KDE and one in Gnome.
Even then, when I reboot my dual-boot system, I have to move my .kderc and .kde/ out of the way because they aren't compatible with KDE 2.2 (and they have RedHat rather than Mandrake menus)!
Is there some way to convince KDE that it should look at a different .kderc and .kde/ directory (an environment variable, perhaps ...)?
Assuming it is possible to redirect the default config filenames to separate the different KDE configs by system/platform, does anybody have any tricks for sharing things like custom menu entries and panel buttons across systems and platforms?
Even within the same KDE and OS versions, is it safe to share the same .kde directory across multiple systems at the same time? Does it do proper file locking on changes, etc?
There are quite a few dependency problems; and once you
resolve them, all KDE apps core dump.
Pretty easy:
- Install Slashcode on dot2.kde.org. It is a good name since kde is in its 2.x version.
- keep dot.kde.org running as it is but don't post any new stories, and doesn't allow any new posts either. All the links to it will be kept.
- Post new stories to dot2.kde.org
It's possible the certain implementations of C++ might contain bloat (GNU libstdc++ is notoriously bad, for example), but don't judge the language and libraries on that.
HLL != bloat!
Okay, I'll buy the bait. Win2K never crashes. It has yet to crash on me, even though I brutalize it with crappy programs (for example, InteractiveC). Of course, this is just my personal experience, so it doesn't matter much. On the other hand your little point is also personal experience, and similarly doesn't matter much. What counts is the fact that the majority consensus on the net is that Win2K is very stable (read through some non-Slashdot newsgroups). Maybe not as stable as Linux, but quite usably so. If it is unstable for you, than by all means use something better. However, don't pretend that just because it doesn't work for you that it doesn't work for everyone else.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The change from QT 2.x to QT 3.x will break binary compatiblity and source compatibilty, but the latter only for less than 10% of the methods. Porting from QT 2.x to QT 3.x will be very easy.
The whole kdebase was ported by a troll from QT 2.x to QT 3.x in less than 6 manhours.
err, precisely when did "MS" say linux on the desktop was dead? References please.
Great, they get it back up, and what do ya do. Ya note the fact here, it will be slashdotted right back off the map!
-C:\>tracert life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
-Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
Hey, I've been looking for such a program... Anything exist yet? Website?
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
You are absolutely right. Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said, "They that will trade a little standards compliance for speed of compilation will get neither standards compliance nor speed of compilation." No wait, that was John Adams, no it was James Madison... no, hold on, that wasn't it at all... oh, well, you get the point, I think.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
I use and develop for KDE on a AMD K6/450 with 128 Meg RAM with no problems whatsoever. I usually have the full KDE desktop, Konq, KMail, and several Konsoles running and still have 50M *physical* RAM free. Your install sucks ;-) Mine's compiled with --enable-final and objprelink, and is very snappy.
There is activity going on on their mailing list. E.g. right now they're coining up a standard for storing image thumbnails so Nautilus, Konqueror and the GIMP will be able to share them.
Monkey sense
Tom.
Oh arse
The changes are big, specially antialiased fonts. Give it a try Good luck!
If I recall correctly - PatriotSoft will issue Solaris binaries RSN
Hetz (Heunique)
Despite how mature KDE 2.x is, it still has a killer flaw: it is dreadfully slow. I mean it makes Windows-2000 feel like BeOS. I scares me to think of all the people who never got into Linux because KDE's speed frightened them away.
/. once made a very good point. Developers should be forced to code on vanilla pentiums with 48MB of RAM. Thus, their programs will run quickly on those with mainstream machines. Watching KDE-2.1 (I have not tried 2.2, so I won't comment on it) sputter along on my PII-300 /w 256MB of RAM (which runs Win2K damn snappily, thank you very much) is just sad. For example try loading up a directory with a lot of files in Konqueror. KDE2 will visibly pause while Win2K will merrily blast them all onscreen. Then try resizing the window (with opage resize turned on). With Explorer, there is barely any flicker, and the process is *smooth* With Konqueror, you can see visible redraw, and the thing rubber-bands like Netscape 4.7. While Word 97 starts up instantly on my computer, even simple apps take several seconds to load on KDE. For a twichy guy like me (spoiled by BeOS) KDE's lack of snappy response makes it unusable. Alex St. John (DirectX evangalist and former columnist at MaximumPC) once asked how the hell Internet Explorer could visibly flicker when drawing a few bitmaps and some text, while Carmack was spewing tons of AI driven monsters on the screen at 30fps.
Somebody on
What KDE really needs is a feature-freeze. It is already "usable enough" and has enough eye-candy (aren't UNIX guys supposed to HATE style over substance?) What needs to be done is to revamp the internal architecture for speed. Not turning the codebase into spaggheti code for a few more % speedup, but making good design decisions that trade some 1% functionality (defined as functionality that is cool, but useless to 99% of the population, such as remote network objects) for speed and simplicity. Unfortuately, the tricks going on at AMD and Intel virtually assures that such a thing will never happen. It has been said of software (MS software in particular) that it expands to fill available hardware resources. I thought Linux was supposed to be different?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
myap | less
and then search for the keyword using:ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
check at the following link. Not only does it it contain links to packages on a sourceforge server, but it is a good write-up about the release, as well.
- 08 -15-005-20-NW-KE
Allan
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001
Along with the updated Konqueror, which appears to have a host of upgrades, KOffice 1.1 is set to come out next month, according to the article. Altogether, it looks to be an impressive release, though I have yet to install it to see the UI improvements. Seems to run on most flavors of Linux/Unix, which is a boon to corporate and civic entities looking to divest themselves of pricey MS apps.
Read thish tm l
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/08/13/1248233.s
and the linked dot.kde.org article.
I agree. A lot of KDE upgrades I avoid simply because I'm afraid of the incompatibilities it can cause with my current distro (in this case, RedHat 7.1). I normally wait for a Linux company to place the new interface into their distro, then download that instead.
There's much more cruft in C++ than there's in C. C++ lets the programmer go lazy on many things at the expense of bloat and execution speed. Even "Hello world" examples are much larger in size than C equivalents. The sheer size of the download should give you an idea. The loading times don't worry me as much as the memory usage. Same goes for Mozilla. Mozilla is a huge beast and will use lots of CPU often (not even mentioning all the memory leaks).
Bottom line: I can't use KDE 2.2 on my 128 MB machine, it's just not enough. KDE 2.2 plus Mozilla, and I am sitting waiting for the swapping to churn through.
Also compare GNOME core distribution ( mostly C) and KDE core distribution sizes. Granted GNOME doesn't offer as many features, but the difference is quite apparent.
KDE 2.2(Final) Debs are available in the unstable tree. If you normally run the stable tree, you may want to switch over to unstable, install just the needed kde packages, then switch back. deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free
Mmmm, -funroll-loops
The best comment I've read on /. in a long time.
TODO: Something witty here...
I want one huge workspace that can scroll. Not 4 individual workspaces - which is what KDE has. I want to be able to drag an app to the corner of my screen and be able to go to the adjacent view and see the app.
And I want 4x4 or 4x6 views on ONE workspace. I don't want to move a window out of the screen, not even partially! (Amiga style!) I want a BeOS style workspace/view switching so that when I get a hold on one window and change view, the window sticks during the switch and I can leave it on another view. I want a Amiga-style box in one corner of the screen that I can use to switch between views.
I already have that with Gnome and especially Sawfish. Last time I checked, Sawfish and KDE didn't talk the same language; I don't know if it has implemented KDE2 WM hints yet. Someone here was right, the KDE workspace/view thing is not configurable enough. KDE has features but it still remains unconfigurable. Can I choose which titlebar buttons to show and on which side, like in KDE 1.2? 2.1 didn't let me.
I've been waiting for a few things to let myself utilize the KDE framework which itself is pretty great, and probably the best desktop framework there is for Linux.. (and other unixen)
You've some fucked up libraries there mister, unless you're using hot stuff directly from CVS.
KDE 2.2 is part of Red Hat Linux 7.2.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Use KDM. A few weeks back, I installed the KDE2.2 beta and I was quite impressed with KDM when compared with GDM. Far nicer.
Hello.. not everyone in the world runs linux. Would be nice if they released Solaris pkg's along with the release :(
Sorry, call me a troll, or flamebait, or whatever, but win2k does a lot of things right.
yeah, the would be Gnome you where thinking of (as compiled under the FINK project). and of course you need to run it under XFree, it doesn't run directly under Quartz/Aqua. but FINK has been moving along pretty well, so KDA may not be that far away...
sean
I've been using KDE 2.2alpha (on Mandrake 8), and it is great. There were some hitches, but they'd be ironed out in the release version. What I like most about KDE is not just the eye-candy that is builtin, but actually the uniformity of the interface between all the various components. Anyone else notice the similarities with Aqua, like the enlarged panel icons ala the Dock?
Or was that Gnome..
Why not use both? Install both of them, install a program like selectwm, and choose which wm to use. This way, if you get tired of using one, you can easily switch to another. No big deal.
-- "Perceptions create reality. By changing your perceptions you change your reality."
What we at our company are almost YELLING about at some places ... we're all used to OpenSTEP and some of us are still using it just because of the Terminal.app. When you have some process or script that outputs tons of stuff, you just press Ctrl+F, you get a find panel, you enter your search keyword and it moves the terminal buffer to the right place and highlights what you've searched for. I think OS X has something simmiliar. :) Such feature greatly simplifies the daily job of the sysadmin.
If such functionallity would be added to KDE, there'll be no reasons for us to keep OpenStep anymore, expect for sentimentallity.
Actually, I think this has to be about the best suggestion you could give. Better interoperability between KDE and Gnome could only improve the situation for both desktops. Isn't The X Desktop Group supposed to be working on with KDE and Gnome on this? I haven't heard much about it in a while.
I am pleased to announce that since my porn came in 78% clearer now that I'm using KDE 2.2 (automatic antialiasing all da way!), I got off in 2 seconds instead of 3. Thank you. You've made my day the best ever, and also made my keyboard a gooey mess.
Anyone know of a url for sources.list ? thanks
It usually takes a week or so but....
:)
but go check freshports - it's in the ports collection now. along with koffice-rc1. very cool.
my modem will be busy today
Many already have and are resting for a second go.
Windows 2000 might not be usably fast on a 386/33, but neither is KDE (1.x even) for that matter... And maybe you and I have a different definition of "usable" because I consider something jerky to be unusable. Maybe I'm spoiled, but if I notice it, its going too slowly. Win2K goes fast enough that I don't notice it (and it is significantly faster than 9x, if you don't know why read a good OS book) but KDE2 doesn't. Simple as that.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Like I said, been there forever, there's a checkbox for it in the Font configuration tab. If it's not there your X server doesn't support XRender. What version are your running and with what video card?
I wish KDE had tear away menus like gimp and gnome. Is this possible in KDE or is QT the problem?
Looks smooth..going to get the rpms now.
Would you trade speed of compilation for standards compliance?
>>>>>>>>>
Yes. Because I tend to stick very closely to "safe" code, which is always a good practice, no matter how standards complient your compiler. There is, of course, a balance, but GCC's balance point is in the wrong place.
That would be complete stupidity. GCC 3 is a godsend for C++ developers, and a firm base for future speed improvements.
>>>>>>>>>>
Well, let's see what shapes up. Of course, the competition isn't standing still either. IntelC++, for example, is very fast, makes great code, and is quite standard complient (not to the point of GCC, but very close). If only it didn't cost so damn much...
Besides, standards compliance is not GCC 3's only feature. It is also one of the most portable and retargetable compilers out there (perhaps THE most), which was always the main killer feature.
>>>>>>>>>
90% of the world runs x86, deal with it. Something useful to a very limited portion of the population cannot be billed as a "killer" feature. Maybe if GCC was billed as an embedded compiler, that would be true, but as a compiler for Linux/x86, that feature carries little weight.
I have no doubt that GCC will improve. Whether it will every be better than its competitors, however, is totally up in the air. As it stands, 3.0 is not much better than 2.95.3 in any respect other than standards complience. If 3.1+ changes this, then great. Otherwise, not so great.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Apparently, GCC 3.0 is quite a dissapointment for most people. It really doesn't compile faster, it really doesn't produce faster code. It is *very* standard complient, but standards complience cannot be a compiler's only feature. Luckily, Intel C++ is being ported to Linux. Hopefully Intel does something smart and releases 'icl' in a form that's usable to the community. Since many users compile their software themselves, god knows a $400 compiler won't fly very well in the Linux market.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Hmmm, I don't know about porting to qt-3.x, but I definitely remember the hassles of porting KDE from qt-1.4x to qt-2.x. Many major KDE applications were simply unavailable for KDE-2.0 for a very long time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think an API should be frozen in stone. But a lot of attention needs to be made to the existing source and binaries that were made for last months API.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
New features I like:
Pulsating icon when program is loading
Interface cleanup - Finally looks good on hi-res LCD
Bug fixes - Browser is getting more usable day by day
Kdevelop - intriguing program. Hope it continues to mature at it's current pace. Very familiar coming from MS Vis Studio.
Koffice - Hope to see you at 1.1 soon! looking great
Schemes, Colors, Sounds and everything are much snappier
Control panel cleanups!
Setup wizards (makes it easy for windows converts
And lots of GUI toys & options - can change icon & font rendering, window popup speed and much more. eye candy for sure
Again, compile times suck. It takes a few hours to compile kde_base alone on a 1ghz P3 with a gig of memory.
Hopefully Gcc 3.01 /3.1, QT 3.0 and KDE 3.0 will be the killer desktop. 2.2 is a VAST improvement, but only that.. an improvement on existing interfaces and bugfixes.
I do like KDE's object model of sorts, widgets and kparts. Very will thought out implementations, i just hope they learn to quit breaking binary compatibility with each major release :)
Keep up the good work KDE team!
Just because they are larger binaries does not automatically mean the programs themselves will use more memory. Besides, the fact that it is C++ has no relation whatsoever to the huge number of processes that KDE requires, and the huge number of dot configuration files that are created when you use it. I agree with the man, KDE needs to slim down substantially before I will use it on any of my systems.
It's a major upgrade - you probably want to upgrade (or, get ready to upgrade when 2.2.1 inevitably comes out in a couple of weeks).
The release notes are worth reading over.
...j
(jackass has been cancelled. eep!)
Then if it's so important, get out there and start writing a common icon API.
If the success of free software means something to you, then please add your contribution. If it does not, then please don't try to shoot it down. We'd like to make a go at it even if you don't.
sorry.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
The biggest problem I've had with the desktop in Linux were the crappy aliased fonts in pretty much every program. Did the latest version of KDE fix this or does it have to be fixed in XFree86?
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
I discovered, quite by accident, that if you configure your X server to treat your desktop as one resolution, but run your screen at another, you can quite easily scroll from region to region on your screen.
That completely bypasses (and/or runs in addition to) any extra software pager.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Oops, I meant the new kde 2.2 and not 2.1 has been fixed. Sorry about that.
http://saveie6.com/
On my old machines (eg < 300 mhz) all versions of MS Windows after Windows95 have had a snappier user desktop application environment and GUI than anything Linux or X could do on the same machine. One exception for me was I found MS-Windows 95 and Office97 (or whatever it was back then) to be slower on my pentium 133 - X was faster because the environment was simpler: Emacs and FVWM. It is sort of odd that Win2K is even able to run on a p233 - let alone run quickly. There's something highly optimized about the MS GUI and highly *unoptimized* about it's guts. After all let's be thankful that Linux/BSD etc. can kick butt in a few areas: eg. ISS and/or Exchange server don't run quite as snappily as the MS desktop/GUI!
What's more compelling for me is that old machines (pentiums etc.) with Linux installed can run a nameserver, mailserver, and webserver *all on one system* and keep a small LAN of 10 machines or so more than satisfied. So maybe it's best to use your old boxen that way: as a Linux or *BSD server only or as a "desktop" but only for Win98/Win95, and then buy honking monster super boxen if you want a fast system under KDE/GNOME or X.
You can always remote the display to your old slow machine ;-)
If the binary package is available, then the port is already done. You can't have one without the other. But beware that building KDE takes a loooong time to build, much longer than compiling a new world.
You had me at "dicks fuck assholes".
Well worth the upgrade. It's slicker and feels faster than before, and the "kpersonalizer" is a nice quick way to tune your environment. Konquerer is nice, but still a bit clunky, so Moz wins for me here. KMail simply goes from strength to strength.
If you've not done it yet, go for it. You won't be disappointed, you'll certainly be impressed at the hard work that has clearly gone into this environment. Well done the KDE team!
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
I dont even know if this can be done, but when the 'Store Settings' option is checked to remember the window size and position, it would be _really_ useful to have it NOT store the settings when the size/position is set by Javascript in the page
(damn popups keep giving me tiny windows the next time I use them...)
Those who don't know how to use rpm maybe should wait until their favorite distro supports it and then buy a copy. Personally I don't like the way Mozilla installs - rpm and apt-get were well thought out. Why reinvent the wheel? Plus - tell me one user who don't know what distro they are using.. The spash screens of Redhat/Suse/Mandrake etc are very large and in your face... Anthony
Use a web-based mail account (hotmail,yahoo,gmx,hushmail).
A diskless X terminal runs only the X server.
;-)
In the traditional model, yes; this is what our prototype is doing. However, given that the that the *minimum* system readily available these days is a Duron 850MHz with 128MB stick of SDRAM, it seems rather wasteful not to put this to good use. NCD provides Netscape and ICA on some of their xterms, and we've tried this successful on the Linux-based "xterm" too. Moving the window manager to the terminal is the logical next step, but admitted more of a giant leap...
Ignoring the technical issues of running the window manager locally, the more stuff added to the boot image, the longer the boxes take to boot. While this shouldn't be an issue, users who have been exposed to Windows will reboot the terminals with Ctrl-Alt-Del at the merest hint of a problem...
More likely, we'll harvest the spare CPU cycles after hours - imagine a Beowulf cluster of Duron-based xterms...
Apparently you are not aware of shared memory.
Actually I am aware of shared memory, which is why I built everything with shared libraries to minimize the memory usage. There were some memory savings using shared libraries, but the actual memory usage of the limited trial indicated that we would have trouble with a full user load.
Apt-getting kde, noticed kde removes gdm. I thought --- well, I'll install kde 2.2 and then reinstall gdm. After installing kde, apparently an install of gdm is not possible without removing kdm and kde.
While I enjoy using gnome more than kde, I like to occassionally use kde by selecting kde in gdm. However, with kde 2.2, this no longer seems possible. Does someone have any suggestions to allow gdm with kde 2.2?
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
I hope KDE2.2 makes it's way into Redhat 7.2! That combo would make for something that joe-user could go for.
Less bloat. More optimizations. You shouldn't neet lots of resources to move windows around and copy and paste. 1.x release was actually bearable on a 64 or 128 MB machine, can't say the same about the new release. I know this is asking for impossible, but maybe people who moderated my previous post a troll can prove me wrong, and have a large C++ project have a memory foot print/resource usage that these kinds of binaries could have (C instead).
I really wish kde would push the new releases out to the mirrors before they announce. Seems like they've done this with every release since 2.0 at least. It's frustrating as hell.
It's so beautiful that I'm stunned.
Yes. I'm entirely confused now. If I start konsole, with anti-aliasing on, and I do (right-click) -> Font -> Custom, I see a list of fonts. misc-fixed is not among these.
If I start konsole with QT_XFT=0, I see a different, much smaller, list of fonts. misc-fixed *is* in this list.
SO people who want to either developer QT or KDE applications might want to download QT 3 snapshot and play with it.
Sorry, I don't play that game. That's what they do in the closed source world. Always chasing after the latest software. Don't get me wrong, I will be using KDE 3.0. But I won't be doing any KDE development. I tired of chasing after Qt.
How many X11 programs written ten years ago compile perfectly fine today? How many Motif programs written ten years ago compile perfectly fine today? Will today's Qt-2.3.1 program compile with next year's Qt? Hah!
I like Qt. It's well organized and sensible. But this is going to be release 3.0. Not 0.3.0. You would think Trolltech would have the API hammered out by now. Give us a break and freeze the damn interface and let us catch up!
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It may have been fixed already, but I've noticed some problems in the 2.1.x KDE release with the window manager. The two problems that come to mind is in "xv" you can't load images smaller than a certain size, or they are distorted. This works in other wm's. Also I couldn't use Bliss, the Java-based Intellivision emulator under KDE, because the window is sized wrong and can't be resized. It worked fine under sawfish. Thanks
You have a choice, choice the environment you like after evaluating all your options. So create a new user on your UNIX system and try them out.
I don't see any reason better than that.
Have you looked at kpager? Isn't that what you want?
Moritz
I think it slows down every virtual function call with an extra jmp in the object file which objprelink was run on. Is this correct?
A good idea in theory - but in practice, this can be quite hard. For example, for panel applets, both desktops drag along large libraries - and while it is possible to display GTK widgets in Qt applications, you don't want the memory requirements that introduces.
/etc/X11/applnk menu on Red Hat Linux), so it's not quite as bad as you make it sound.
For menus etc., we are using the desktop file standard (with the exception that gnome hasn't converted its translations to UTF8 yet) - with a sane setup, you can get an application into both menus at the same time (e.g. the
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Wait a minute! -1, Offtopic? Can someone please tell me how my post was offtopic? Let alone why it got modded down to -1? Where's Meta-Moderation when you need it...
"The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
Already done. cvsup and you'll have it.
The one main thing that is holding me back from using KDE is having the kind of fine-grained window memory that Enlightenment has. There are simply some windows that I want to always open at a certain size, with a certain border, and on a certain desktop and geometry. Yes I know you can type in -geometry settings for many programs, but having that feature in the K window manager would be great. (and yes, I know you can use other windows managers with KDE, as well as load the panel seperately, etc. disclaimer disclaimer)
This looks to be a pretty solid release.
Perhaps linux on the desktop isn't dead yet, dispite what Microsoft and others keep insisting...?
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
You're taking it the wrong way. If you try to get the equivalent of the STL, exceptions and RTTI in C, you will get binaries even bigger than in C++, and unmaintainable code.
And yes, most of kde does not use RTTI, STL, and exceptions
Many KDE programs do use RTTI (dynamic_cast), I believe some use the STL but this is much less common. It's true that it doesn't use exceptions, mostly because the overhead is currently too big.
(Qt uses RTTI afaik, but it's not as big of a bloat maker as exceptions are).
No, Qt has its own "simili-RTTI" which isn't used in KDE because standard C++ RTTI is just as good if not better, and more general (you can use it on any class, while Qt's RTTI is for QObjects only).
I thin it's also a good time for you - the reader/user to post what do you want to be changed in KDE?
I tried to upgrade my RH71 machine. I dont know what im doing.... i did the rpm --upgrade --force --nodeps *.rpm
Now when i start, I get:
kdeinit: error while loading shared libraries: libfam.so.0: cannot load
shared object file: No such file or directory
Xlib: extension "RENDER" missing on display ":0.0".
/usr/bin/kdeinit: error while loading shared libraries: libfam.so.0:
cannot load shared object file: No such file or directory
Xlib: extension "RENDER" missing on display ":0.0".
/usr/bin/kdeinit: error while loading shared libraries: libfam.so.0:
cannot load shared object file: No such file or directory
Could not register with DCOPServer. Aborting.
connect() failed: : No such file or directory
Ideas?
The importance of the syntax of the mouse is something the KDE group has underestimated.
;) ], fingers are used to patterns. The qwerty keyboard is probably a necessity for most people today and I'm sure most people would argue if they had to learn another keyboard.
I came from Win9x to KDE some two years ago. I cannot move completely as I have hundreds of heavily Word97 formatted Word-documents left (lots of tables, embedded links, pictures, etc.). One thing that still bugs me terribly and which has caused me A LOT of irritaion - the single click start of programs.
Presuming most people are like me [
Unfortunately, the same has not [yet] been appreciated for the syntax of the mouse [ignoring the Mac hide-out]. Using the mouse should be easy, not cumbersome. Everytime I switch between the two systems I have to rethink, AND IT BUGS ME.
I wish someone at the KDE steering group (if there is one) should consider the smoothest soothest sweetest possible interference for novice KDE users (in fact like myself).
The syntax of the mouse (e.g. right click on the desktop to change your screen settings) has become a habit and commodity that lies deeply rooted among hundreds of millions of expert, serious, and novice Windows users.
Please, make this the default behaviour of KDE. Then you have not (in a manner of speaking) not changed peoples' keyboards to FBWUGD, OR WHATEVER.
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE LITTLE DETAILS.
There seems to be some confusion here. The fonts are the same regardless of the anti-aliasing setting, the only difference is in the way the font is rendered.
Rich.
Troll?? C++ binaries ARE larger than equivalent C binaries.
Mosfet's theme has the ability to make menu's translucent.. but what about the ability to make a WINDOW translucent? There must be some hack to make this possible with KDE... It would be so much easier to slightly "see through" a window in which I am editing source code, while watching the results and log files generated in non-translucent windows in the background "through" the window, rather than switching desktops, resizing windows, etc. Any thoughts???
Kdeinit is a stub process that is linked against most KDE shared libraries. It is responsible for forking and exec'ing KDE's most frequently run applications. Since the libraries already have been loaded and referenced resolved, this causes the application (in the form of a shared library) to be spawned much quicker. The unfortunate side effect of this is that every process spawned from it is called "kdeinit". Question - in UNIX everything is a child of the init process, yet have their own names when "top" is run - what gives - why is it different for kdeinit?
As pointed out several times in this discussion. This is a problem with the GNU toolchain. KDE utitilizies several "hacks" (kdeinit, objprelink) which will be rolled back into gcc and binutils to the benefit of all C++ applications. :-(
Unfortunately KDE relies on the GNU toolchain and/or GNUism for compiliation. No Intel compiler, no Alpha cxx compiler, no Sun compiler will do
It seems a rather strange way to handle the fonts. Certainly, both types are displayable on the screen, so why not allow both?
Yes, bloat, but if you do not use the STL, exceptions, and RTTI, c++ binaries are about the size of c binaries.
And yes, most of kde does not use RTTI, STL, and exceptions (Qt uses RTTI afaik, but it's not as big of a bloat maker as exceptions are).
Also, about, execution speed, c++ is only barely slower than c. HOWEVER, g++ compiled c++ programs with lots of shared libs take forever to be loaded. This seems to be bugs in g++ that the team is fixing. The same prelinking time does not occur in other compilers (visual c++ comes to mind).
There are several approaches that the kde project has compensated for this. First was kdeinit. Kdeinit linked the majority of kde and qt shared libs and then loaded the app, resulting in less memory usage. Now, with 2.2, there is a objprelink. This reduces time of loading of many kde apps from 30% to 50%.
In the future, g++ will probably be fixed. Meanwhile, there will be other prelinking solutions (some have already been announced)
KDE is coming along nicely. Congratulations to all that have contributed to the project. I run both KDE and GNOME, and, though GNOME is still my first choice, KDE is definitely improving, and will replace GNOME as my desktop of choice one day.
The main reason that day is not now is the customizability of Sawfish, the WM i use in GNOME. Sawfish lets me customize my interface considerably more than kwm can. Mainly, i use a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (19 extra buttons across the top) and a Microsoft Trackball Explorer (yeah, MS software is pretty bad, but i love their hardware). Within Sawfish and GNOME i can create all sorts of custom bindings for the keyboard's keys and trackball's extra buttons (X sees the trackball as a seven button mouse). I have not found how to do this in KDE. there's a 'hotkeys' daemon that sort-a works for the keyboard, but it crashes on me. in Sawfish, i am able to bind to the XF86* keys directly (ie., XF86HomePage, XF86Standby). For the trackball, i can bind to Button6 and Button7. Sawfish also allows contexts for hotkeys, that is, a click on Button6 has a different meaning when i click on the titlebar of a window, as opposed to other places on the desktop.
Am i missing something, or is this something that could be added?
Anyone know how long the Free BSD ports usually take?
one thing that drives me nuts about linux is that there are all these different desktops with all these competing standards. there's no one API for instance to add an icon to the desktop or a program group, because each one of these systems does everything totally differently.
i know it sounds petty, but until something is done to make all of these things less linux-y and more transparent, linux will forever be a server closet geek toy.
sorry.
Ok... this nearly seems a flamebait, but it's not :)
I'm using gnome+enlightenment at the moment, but have thought of switching to kde. Which are the reasons you would have to recommend me to change my desktop environment (or not to change it)?
Engage!
Will Windows or Slashcode make an overheating harddrive not crash, or faulty RAM not fault? I don't think so. And your 50% uptime is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
Let's not mix issues and problems without knowing the whole story. I am getting a lot of heat from people making complaints, most of them are happy to wax poetic without knowing the full facts or carefully considering the options. It's kinda tiring.
About Zope and Squishdot, we are working out the issues with helpful suggestions from the Zope guys. As for Slashcode, I will look at it one day when I have time. You might be surprised to learn that dot.kde.org is not my full-time job. So tell me if you know anything about how to move to Slashcode *and* still preserve backward compatibility with all the sites and documentation that link to dot.kde.org resources.
-N.
It's never working. Uptime is like 50% ... pathetic. It only serves as public proof of why Zope and squishdot are useless. I'd like to see a similar news site running Coldfusion to prove how useless it is as well.
The **ONLY** way to run news/weblog sites that are reliable it to use MS technology on an NT cluster or use Slashdot code on a couple of load balanced Linux/BSD boxes. Those are the only two enterprise grade solutions. Unless you buy a 1,000,000$ "portal solution".
So where does that leave Dot.kde?? Can't use MS Windows and the current technology doesn't work so:
WHY DOESN'T DOT KDE USE SLASHCODE??
some more notes regarding the RPMs for kde 2.2
I downloaded them all and tried to install them but had a bunch of odd dependencies... turns our bero@redhat.com (great guy, does a lot, if not all of the packaging for KDE for redhat), turns out he didn't have a redhat 7.1 box at hand and made the packages on his redhat 7.2 beta box. there are a number of issues he's addressing, so the redhat 7.x packages aren't quite up to snuff... yet.
---
I post links to stuff here
Its not even that. MS goes to a lot of trouble optimizing the "feel" of the OS. They make sure that things load quickly, even if they're not fully functional when first loaded. They make sure that widgets flicker as little as possible when being resized. They grok the scheduler to make sure that GUI apps get preferential scheduling. These things just make the environment "feel" faster. While KDE2 is probably better technology than Win2K's GUI, it seems that the KDE devels would rather add features than go to the trouble of optimizing things like this. There is no arguement that the Linux core OS is significantly faster and more stable than Win2K. However, KDE2 (and, to be fair, most other non-minimalistic Linux GUIs) slows the cheetah down to the point where it loses the race to the hippo.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
"and you get as a bonus %30-%50 speed increase.."
I know you guys work hard on this, but comments like this just tee me off. Speed is never a bonus. If you release a piece of software, it must be usably fast to begin with (which KDE isn't for a whole lot of people.) If you extend or add features, you must make sure that the speed doesn't decrease. Making software fast isn't really that hard, and it doesn't lead to bad design. It just requires a little restraint with respect to features. With all the interface doodads and eye candy in KDE2, it is quite apparent that this restraint has not been exercised.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
People who would like to contribute to the KDE development are most welcome to join - you don't have to be a C++ programmer in order to contribute - Graphics artists, GUI guru's, HTML experts and others are more then welcome to join the big KDE famility of developers..
And so are total newbies who don't know anything about computers yet - feedback from those people can be vital. Most of us simply don't notice if something is not intuitive because it's what we're used to.
If you think you can't do anything that would be useful, please check out usability.kde.org and convince yourself of the opposite. We need the feedback...
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On the other side of the world - in Europe, the picture is different. KDE is very popular in Europe (most KDE developers are from Europe and outside USA) and Redhat DOES help a bit. Bero (who is one of their employees) does package the KDE for Redhat for releases. Redhat did load some hardware for the KDE team in LinuxTag - so it's not exactly black & white scenario..
Hetz (Heunique)
FYI, I believe there is a module called "kmozilla" or some such that will let you use the Gecko engine from Mozilla in Konqueror, instead of KDE's khtml. I'm not sure about details since I've been happy with khtml, but it's something to look for.
if you have your KDE clock set to blink and show seconds etc, that kind of bandwidth will chew up your LAN in no time.
and as soon as you start web browsing you can kiss your LAN good bye if you have lots of clients on the same LAN.
Objprelink seems to introduce an extra jmp instruction for every function. Is this a good thing? How can it be avoided?
In my small office, I've seen repeated problems with Windows 2000. It's a steaming pile of fresh dog poop.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Is "Hello World" a 'bloated' program in C**? If you took out Office, mail, all the apps, Konqueror, 3/4s of the features and networking would it still be "bloated?"
What on earth has compilation time got to do with bloatedness after compilation?
KFG
What happend to kde.themes.org ?
After the hack of the server I haven't seen any new themes coming up ?
Under newest were themes from 1999
Come folks that is really important to those arguments like "Wow your destop looks awesome, I want that on my computer too !"
For many win$ kids this is an huge argmuent.
dunno... works great with RH71 (side-by-side with Gnome for that matter...). If you have an existing KDE 2.1.x, you may want to unistall it first. I noticed that the obsolete package (can't remember which one, see readme) was screwing up the RPM depends. After that, eveything worked OK. I also kept the SSLlib that shipped with 7.1 and it's working.
there's no place like ~
Many at this point will bring up Gnome and I know what follows is sort of a flame, but KDE has proven itself to be the most mature and stable GUI in the desktop linux market(however small that is). KDE should continue on their own path and not worry about what Gnome is doing. Gnome is the follower in this case and does not really have a future in the same sense that KDE does. Its best that you get the few remaining Gnome users and developers to shift their support to KDE at this point. This is the only way for linux to attain the "world domination" everyone has either joked about or tried for the past 4 years. If you want to keep linux fragmented keep supporting two bitter rival desktops and the market share will stay where it is. If this doesn't happen, you all are in for five more years of "why does X port Y to linux" and "why doesn't company X release the drivers for linux". I've been down that road for too many years with the linux camp and being fed up have decided to move on to Win2k for desktops since it is and industry standard(or least a supported standard). Maybe someday I will root for the linux desktop again, but not until it gets its desktop standard together. AC
You can add user agents per domain/machine basis. Settings/Configure Konqueror/User Agent and there you go. I'm using Konqueror 2.2.
Such a major project with an emphasis on usability and user friendliness and the package has no installer. Sure different distros can wrap it up in whatever package manager they use, but this is still a pain. Why can't they have something like mozilla's binary installer so end users (who may not know their distro) can download it and just go.
-josh
Not to mention this /. thread. Unfortunately from the open-source perspective, they're using these Linux terminals primarily to run commercial software packages: WordPerfect, Excel, PowerPoint, and Access.
Tim
I've got similar problems. I've got a RH7.0 box, and when I try to install KDE, it starts complaining about needing libXft, and libXrender. Of course, there is no mention of either in the README (such as what version of XF86 is required), nor is there a version of X in the non-kde directory. This is also ignoring the collisions on libcrypto, libssl, python, liblber, libldap, librpm and librpmio. Just a little frustrating.
Luckily, I haven't done a --nodeps like the README suggests.
So, anyone know what the magic versions are?
I'd like to see better documentation on how to get KDE to compile on SPARC Solaris when using gcc. I spent a week on and off trying to get 2.0 to compile but was never successful, even after making the necessary changes for the libice issues. Same thing for 2.1.
Afte that I got the PatriotSoft build (they finally came out with a 2.1 package). Based on that I think work needs to be done for multi-user environments. It seems like there are way too many processes associated with KDE right now.
Additionally, we had problems if someone logged in more than once. Running control panel in that scenario would cause KDE to die horribly, making the box unusable until I ran the reboot comand (the first time it happened I tried init 6 and ps|grep but kept running out of memory and other issues). Ouch!
This happned twice. The first time I was logged onto the console and a Sun Ray via XDM (the Sun Ray server was another box, not this one). One other user was also connected via a Sun Ray. The second time I was logged on the console and a Sun Ray user was logged in twice via XDM (i.e. the person had two different Sun Ray sessions running, both XDM'ing to my box).
Sun Rays are thin clients. Client sessions all run on a Sun Ray server (in this case an Ultra 450 running Solaris 2.6). The dispay and sound are pushed out to the clients and of course keboard/mouse input it sent back. Sun Ray users get a dtlogin/dtgreet (XDM) login just like you would on the console.
-- Argel
This will bring up the "logout?" dialog in KDE :))
Just config linux to not reboot on ctrl-alt-del, X to not exit on ctrl-alt-bs and you have a system that can not be rebooted without root access.
You can also remove all tty's in the X runlevel, so your users can not use ctrl-alt-F1 to go to a text-screen.
As on memory; I don't understand why you will want to have KDE running remotely in the first place. For user programs this can make sense, but things like konqueror run fine on local machines.
User software can naturally still be run remote (just use some script or for example ssh forwarding)
Fun project ;)
First I would like to say HUGE KUDOS to all the KDE developers. 2.2 is FABULOUS!! Fast, beautiful, functional and flexible. I truly can't thank you enough.
;)
Now for the nitpick.
Konqueror still doesn't render ESPN.com properly. I go there pretty much every day, so it's an important issue for me personally. Fortunately, Mozilla 0.9.3 does render it properly, but I'd rather not have to keep 2 browsers around.
Other than that, I couldn't be more pleased. Thanks again!
Cheers.........
Anti-Aliased fonts or No Anti-Aliased fonts. Why not both? The default A-A fonts are absoulutely hideous! Other than that, so far I really like it. Konqueror is pretty damn good now. I noticed tons of fixes. More stylesheet crap appears to work now.
I had win2k crash on me the other day and that was the last straw. I usually have a ton of apps installed, so reinstalling my system takes weeks. For all those people who say win2k never crashes.. I beg to differ. Worst of all, it is almost impossible to recover. So here I go with Debian/KDE 2.2. [back on topic] After playing with this for a few days, it suddenly occurred to me how ugly the M$ gui is compared to KDE 2.2. Best word to describe it..'FREEDOM'
Thank you KDE Team!
I thought that i would see some binaries for Solaris but i guess no such luck :-(
I thin[k] it's also a good time for you - the reader/user to post what do you want to be changed in KDE? what do u hate about KDE? what do you like?
Twist some arms and get C++ apps to load faster. Konqueror takes 18 seconds or more, and I'm pretty sure most of it is accounted for by resolving function addresses for every object with virtual functions. It's not KDE's fault, but they may be able to either fix it or get someone else to.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
There are some here.
Hi people,
Just few words about this release (and future road-map)..
This is the final major version of KDE 2.2 - expect KDE 2.2.1 next month with all the last-minute bug fixes (without any new features), and translations update..
The next major version is going to be KDE 3.0 that will be out at around January 2002 featuring QT 3.0.x (with all the QT 3 features), and some changes in the backend, among other things. Most of KDE will be ported from 2.2 to 3.0. SO people who want to either developer QT or KDE applications might want to download QT 3 snapshot and play with it. It's got some bugs - but it's pretty stable.
People who would like to contribute to the KDE development are most welcome to join - you don't have to be a C++ programmer in order to contribute - Graphics artists, GUI guru's, HTML experts and others are more then welcome to join the big KDE famility of developers..
I thin it's also a good time for you - the reader/user to post what do you want to be changed in KDE? what do u hate about KDE? what do you like? What do you think should be improved? What do you think should be removed? most of the KDE developers read slashdot - so maybe your request will be fullfilled - you never know...
As for other platforms - expect KDE 2.2 to be available within days for Solaris (X86 & Sparc), HP/UX, SGI's Irix, IBM AIX, and others..
Enjoy the release people - lots of work has been done on this one - and you get as a bonus %30-%50 speed increase..
Hetz (Heunique)
From the changelog:
* KHTML: extended compatibility with IE's parsing and tokenisation fallbacks for really malformed HTML.
This really disappoints me. A web browser needs to follow the spec and do exactly what the web author says, not necessarily what the web author thought he/she said. One reason for this is interoperability: web authors never know which browser people will be using to view their site. For instance, in a few years, many people could be web browsing from their cell phones using "Nokia Integrated Browser" or something. So, web authors must get the idea that the only long term solution is to write valid code -- and having web browsers that "guess" at what the web author "intended" to write in their code doesn't reinforce that.
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
- ... because of C++'s stricter type checking, things like comparing two differently named but otherwise identical structs (which is fine in C) becomes illegal in C++, as C++ treats them as two distinct types.
- ... the following is valid C:
- ... typedefs work differently in C++ than in C because of the way structs, classes and unions work -- they're namespaces in C++, and don't need to be prefixed with struct or union when you're using them as in C. (Obviously, C has no classes.) So, in C, you could have something like
/* whatever */ };
There are other differences, too. Most of them aren't common, but the above are a few I can remember off the top of my head.enum myEnum {ONE, TWO, THREE};
myEnum e = 2;
This is invalid in C++, because of C++'s type checking. Casting would correct the problem.
struct myStruct {
typedef char myStruct;
because in order to create an instance of myStruct, you must prefix it with struct, which distinguishes it from the "char" myStruct. You can't do this in C++, because you don't need to prefix myStruct with struct to use it.
J
That stuff... you know the cruft...
One of the problems I've noticed with KDE is that the only way to use it remotely is via the klugey X11 protocol. X11 has a horrible track record of security. Perhaps they should consider moving to GNOME's CORBA (ORBit). CORBA is a much more modern and secure networked display system! Just a concern for the 1% of use deploying Linux in this manner, but a biggie!
-zr
My suggestion: work closer with GNOME (and vice versa. Its entirely possib;le to have 2 seperate projects without the current incompatibility and lack of standards between the two.
Users don't pick their apps based on toolkit. They pick them based on quality. For almost all users, that's going to be a mix of KDE and GNOME apps.
Create a standard for:
* Component models. Really. We know its hard to agree on, but it must be done.
* File types - > application mapping database (some people call these MIME types).
* Launcher menus. Application developers and end users are tired of having to add new apps Mozilla to two different sets of menus. Nobody says `I want a QT app...oh, and by the way, can it be a web browser'?. They say `I want a web browser'. They don't care about toolkits and neither should the desktop menus.
* Panel applets.
* Icons. GNOME uses 48 x 48. KDE uses various sizes (which is probably a better way to do it - 48 x 28 icons do notRe:some notes not look pretty). Have a kind word to the GNOME folk and suggest they use the same approach as KDE.
* Package deployment. I'd love to download KDE via Ximian's Red Carpet, or a KDE interface for the same.
I would, except for one word: dselect.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
O young one, be aware that there is no karma unless you force yourself unto it. I have no karma. I don't care about it. Hence, I can say whatever I like. Thus, I am free.
If developers can't write for one platform in the security that their version will not be broken in six months, they won't write for the platform.
And if users can't download rpms/tar files without getting dependency problems, they won't bother trying new applications.
So, if you want to challenge Windows on the home and corporate desktop, please devote time and effort to making sure that backwards compatibility works.
Other than that, congratulations. I look forward to downloading.
I am, as I type this, compiling KDE 2.1.1. I'm not a power user (developer or anything), but I'm curious:
Is it worth stopping this compile, grabbing 2.2 and compiling that instead? Or are the changes small enough that I could wait until packages are avaiable for Debian?
You're probably running into what a lot of people do, and trying to upgrade one RPM at a time. Stick them all in a directory, and do "rpm -Uvh *.rpm" and it will figure out all of the dependencies for you and install them all at once.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Hey..what about some screen shots, but first I must read the changelog ummmm.
Agreed. I guess C++ still just isn't 733t enough. It's going to have that "bloated and slow" crap attached to it forever. As if being bloated and slow had absolutely nothing to do with the programmer.
J
Here's my suggestion: Make it installable from a single rpm package. As a non-expert, i have been trying for about an hour to upgrade from the many rpm files, and just gave up.
is done by the distributors. Debian for example splits the kdenetwork in the different applications.(AFAIK)
There is even a script in the kdesdk to package single apps. Aa long as the distributors don't do it, there is nothing KDE can do about it.
Moritz
> here's much more cruft in C++ than there's in C.
> C++ lets the programmer go lazy on many things
> at the expense of bloat and execution speed.
Such as?
> Even "Hello world" examples are much larger in
> size than C equivalents.
The following *C++* program compiles to a 3368 byte dynamic binary on my Linux box:
#include
int main() { printf("Hello, world!\n"): }
Oh whats this? You say thats not a C++ program but a C program? Hate to break it to you, but (with a few exceptions) any valid ANSI C program is also a valid ANSI C++ program.
- Arcadio
you can run enlightenment and kde, it works fine.
"Weasling out of work is important to learn; it is what separates humans from animals. Except for weasels."
FYI to those who are *trying* kde, if you have to upgrade the rpm package, note that it will break red-carpet!
Gee, you're a genius. Who'd have thought that if you don't use any c++ features, that you'd get binaries that are comparable to those generated with c.
> There are other differences, too. Most of them
> aren't common, but the above are a few I can
> remember off the top of my head.
Yes, which is why I qualified my statement with "a few exceptions". They are all nicely enumerated in the back of The C++ Programming Language, 3rd edition. But for the most part, ANSI C is a subset of ANSI C++.
What I'd really like a response to is dmelomed's statement that "C++ lets the programmer go lazy on many things at the expense of bloat and speed". I suspect he can't as most anti-C++ zealots tend to talk out of their ass.
- Arcadio
I never said it doesn't work for everyone else. I said "IT CRASHES". It has happend to me several times in the past 6 months and every single time, recovery was not possible. Has anybody ever successfully repaired the OS with the "Repair" option on the win2k disc? It seems like the put that on there just as some kind of sick joke at this point. I have talked to several people and they all had the same experience when trying to repair.
The big difference for me is when something goes haywire in win2k, you generally only get some vauge error message which is useless for trying to resolve the issue. Its always.. reinstall. In linux, you generally know what is causing the problem, and you don't have blue screens on boot up with vauge messages. Stability aside. Recovery is just terrible on win2k. I would also tend to think that the majority of people who have had good success with win2k don't install as many apps as I do, and usb device drivers. These usb device drivers seem to be very deadly in my experiences. Win2k is basically a polished turd. Underneath the polish, its still just a win98 turd. just my opinion. and to you be-fan.. if it works for you..enjoy. as for me. i can't take it anymore. you can have my copy!
Shhhh, be quiet, if katz sees that site he'll probably write an article about it. "If time warner takes over the internet transgender animal cartoons will be wiped off the net!" heh...
Seriously though, what possesses someone to make cartoons of hot animal chicks with gigantic penises? I mean the guys obviously a talented artist, just his subject matter is a little, umm, insane heh.
I have to say that on my system (Athlon 600 w/256MB w/RH7.1) that 2.2 is WAY slower than the already slow 2.1. Initial startup time for the system is quicker than 2.1 but opening any application including non-KDE one's is terminally slow. Moving things on the screen results in a 2-4 sec delay before the repositioned window appears. It makes my machine feel like a 486 or maybe even a 386. Rather than reinstall 2.1, I've gone back to Windowmaker.
Justin
IIRC Murdock worked for an university and is now the CEO of Progeny.
www.progeny.com (Progeny Debian 1.0 looks promising, btw)
I suppose Bruce Perens is the connection between Debian and Pixar.
He is a former debian project leader and he worked twelve years at pixar.
www.perens.com/Articles/Bio.html
GNOME uses more memory on my system. You obviously are not a programmer, so don't try to blame the programming language.
Damn, posted in the wrong article. Okay, agreed, that was dumb.
"The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
Don't take this as a flame, but I don't think it's easy to slim down a project like this. It's OO, it's C++, what can be expected? C++ is a higher level language, resulting in slow compilation times and bloat. The gain is shorter developement cycle at the expense of bloat. Same goes for Mozilla.
I got mine yesterday, before the 'announcement'. Source AND Mandrake 8 binary.
-- "Perceptions create reality. By changing your perceptions you change your reality."
You're not shitting me? I think I'll go whack off to that feature.
Can someone please tell me how my post was offtopic?
Okay, I'll bite. Maybe its because the LECs' abuse of monopoly power has nothing to do with the release of KDE 2.2? Just a guess...
Very tasteful choice of colors in the default, very easy on the eyes. I like. You will too.
And no, not once was it faulty hardware to blame.
p.s. next time you troll, you need to be more subtle.
There was a bug that has now been fixed with g++/kde-libs. Basically the linker did not index and point to the pre-compilied objects properly. What happened was the linker had to reswap and load all the compilied objects in the proper sequence(i think) and that took some time. Its minimal on my PIII700 :-).
The new kde2.1 and the new gnu-bintools and glibc (not the recent gcc 3.0 compiler) fix the error. According to the press release you can expect %30-%50 improvment on load times because the excess object swaping and loading has been taken care of.
http://saveie6.com/
I know this community likes to engage in a lot of Microsoft bashing, but there are many reasons for their success as an OS vendor that have little or nothing to do with their bullying business tactics They've actually come pretty close to building a consumer OS that ordinary people can use without reading a book or taking a class. You can't -- yet -- say that for Linux.
Give people what they want, not what you think they should want. .
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I would like to see more "non-interactive" NG reading functionality, like the features that Free Agent (http://forteinc.com/) provides (yeah yeah we all know why I want those features ..). In FreeAgent, you can for example multiple-select a whole lot of posts and select with one action to not only automatically download all of those, but automatically decode the attachments and save the files into a directory (which can be specified per newsgroup). Also has features like automatically putting together posts that have been posted in parts (i.e. "1 of 3", "2 of 3" etc).
.. so theoretically it should work at least as well now.
Of course, FreeAgent used to run fairly reasonably under Wine, last I checked, which was probably about two years ago
Yeah, I know; it was a little rough. But my point is, please don't whine about all this stuff people have given you free. I haven't contributed anything, either, but you don't hear me whining about things missing in Linux/GNU/free software/open source. In fact, I'm starting to make plans to contribute to a project that doesn't do quite what I want.
You can say things like, "Linux needs this," without saying, "You *$&%ing %$^&s! You're so stupid! Don't you know Linux has to have ... to succeed! Linux will never work! You suck!" Now, maybe I'm exaggerating a little what the original poster said, but he could try to be a little more positive in his suggestions, or else people will always say "Hey, you! Get coding or shut up!" Or, hopefully, they'll just ignore him and that's a shame if he has good ideas.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.