Slashdot Mirror
On the Differences Between MIS/CIS/CS Degrees?
Dark Ninja asks:
"I find that after having a professional IT job (C++ programmer/DBA)
for four+ years, not having a degree is a hindrance to finding a job. So with this in mind, I'm planning on attending
college soon, but I want to know the difference between an Management
Information System, Computer Information System, and Computer Science
degrees? Better yet, which ones do you suggest (ie. to allow
advancement, which allows for what jobs, etc)?"
From where I went to college (Oklahoma State University), the difference between MIS and CS was that CS was more geared for programming, and MIS was more geared for business with computers. I started out towards a CS degree, but after facing 'impossible' teachers, I switched to the easier MIS stuff to graduate.
However, it had absolutely no impact (that I am aware of) on my marketability after college. They were looking for a degree. But your mileage may vary.
Actually, I'm thankful that I got the business courses that I would have missed under CS.
as to what is recommended as well. i am currently an MIS student and IT Consultant at CSULB (not the greatest program but its all i can afford). Also, after completion of my major...what certificates and programs seem to have the most weight when reviewed for employment...MSCE, CCNA, CCNP, RHCE...etc?
"Good god people, we would have accepted 'bow-wow' or 'ruff'...Ah! Rough, just the way your mother likes it Trebek."
MIS is business courses with some basic programming added (mostly high level stuff, + web pages and the like.) It's not a CS degree. Most CS people laugh at these people. Sorry but it's true.
CIS is computer science with general business courses added. The core CS courses will be there but not much specialization in CS.
Computer Science itself comprises the core courses plus many posible specializations (IS above being one of them). Depending on your preferences you can specialize in different courses; adding some basic engineering courses, or higher level CS courses for example.
Personally I graduated with a CS degree, speicializing in Software Systems which basically meant all my "specialization" credits were used up with higher level CS courses and math courses.
Don't forget to throw CPE (Computer Engineering) and SWE (Software Engineering) into the mix. To make things even more confusing in some places CPE is hardware and others it is software.
There is this great misconception that just because one is a great programmer he does not need real training as a computer scientist. This is due to the fact that most people think of a BS in CS as a formal education as a IT worker, so one who thinks he is a great programmer thinks that a BSCS wont really add anything usefull to him, except for the diploma.
The fact is that Computer Science is not only about becoming a IT worker. Its about using computers to solve problems, and about designing these computers to solve this problems. And about understanding and modeling the problems to begin with. There are actually great programmers who are mediocre computer scientists, great computer scientists who are mediocre programmers (usually of the thoretic cs kind), and great it workers who are great computer scientists (and really shitty programmers and Computer Scientists). And since these are different things, that is why it takes about 5 years to graduate a computer scientist.
Sometimes, a programmer who "learned CS" by his own, has acquired many bad habits that he would not have acquired if he had any formal training ("goto statement considered harmfull" comes to mind), and design rules, software engineering, etc. By the other side, self-learned IT professionals have a much more "getting the work done" attitude, and finding things out by himself, which is *extremely* usefull in industry.
So the idea is that one thing complements the other, and yes, it would be nice for anyone who works with technology without a formal training to really spend the time *learning* CS.
Just my 2c.
I too will be entering college shortly. I am looking at the above options as well as computer engineering. How does a computer engineering degree compare to these?
Management Information Systems. It is a focus on the business and management portion of computing. People with degrees in MIS can go into a variety of positions, but they are usually either business related computing (i.e., drafting IT plans for companies, helping bridge gaps in IT in companies), or consulting for companies with important business software, such as PeopleSoft.
Computer science people are the ones who write the software MIS people implement and use.
If you have some credits right now you might be able to take the shortest route out of college. An MIS or CIS is looked at as being more practical from my experience. A CS degree might mean you lean more towards theory and research. Pick what you want to be known for and go with that. With almost any degree and some talent, you should be able to get work.
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it really doesn't matter, honestly, what you major in college...
:-)
the fact is, once you get that paper... you could say you majored in History, Art, Literature, etc... but if you have certs and so forth... expect to get hired...
i have a few friends who work for big companies (IBM, Lotus, Computer Associates) and they all never majored in CS/CIS/MIS... but they still landed the job, just because they went to college and they had certs...
another option you might want to consider, is consulting... i consult... and i don't have a college degree... and get this... all the clients who i have worked/am working for... have never asked me for my college degree nor resume (even though i do have a resume)...
the other good thing about consulting is, that once you build up your client base... you'll be working off referrals too... so that's another good thing... only bad thing about consulting is that you'll get no benefits... and no insurance
but if you're married and your wife has medical insurance for the family.. and so forth.. that shouldn't be a problem
"The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
I think you should go for the CS degree. Then again, that is what I got, and I enjoy the deep backend technical stuff.
The MIS/CIS degrees seem to be less about the code and mroe about the business side of things. (in fact, when I went to college (CU Boulder), grad in '96, the CIS/MIS degrees were offerd through the business school, and the CS degree was offfered thorugh the engineering school.)
Anyhow, my advice is this: if you want to do really technical geeky-like things, get teh CS, if you plan on managing technical geek-type people, get the MIS/CIS.
Cheers!
-b
If you're a professional C++ programmer/DBA, then you'd probably be bored to tears by the "computer" classes that a MIS or CIS degree involves. That's not strictly true - there may be some good design/architecture courses which you may very well enjoy. Take a very close look at the course catalogs and graduation requirements for the schools you are looking at.
Depending on the school, the same may be true for the courses you need for a CS degree.
Don't overlook the possibility of getting a degree in something other than (or in addition to) CS/MIS/CIS. In four years it is very likely that a degree in economics or actuarial science or applied physics or EE will be the key to doing interesting and/or high-paying stuff. Or, for that matter, Eastern European literature or sociology or basketball coaching may be your true love! or
The way I understand it:
MIS will prepare you for a role as a management-type person in an MIS department -- you'll be working alot with reports, creating and presenting them to various levels of the Organizational Chart.
IS will prepare you for roles between a Developer (IMO, a dumb-downed developer/coder, where all programming is done in a strict by-the-letters fashon, and the developer is only responsible for a few modules in an overall system) to a Systems Analyst, which will put you in front of both the developers and the end users, determining requirements, and creating an overall plan for system creation, design, development, and implementation. Analysts typically won't get their hands wet with programming, but have been known from time to time to sit down and write module or two for a system.
CS will prepare for, for the most part, coding jobs. CS grads are usually brought into companies as contractors, and paid outrageous sums of money. The downside is that they also mean nothing to the company in general, and (and sadly, I'm taught this in my IS courses), are viewed as a 'resource', not an employee. CS grads are given enough experience to do just about everything there is with computers, but from my experience, there are quite a few who lack the interpersonal skills required to be a project leader or Systems Analyst.
if a company i'm interviewing with doesn't want to hire me because i have no colege degree, even though i have 5 years of experience, then i don't want to work for that company anyway.
Uhh, that would be college and the grammar could use some work as well. Ummm.....thanks for applying but don't call us. We'll call you.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
CS is a math-heavy, theory-heavy degree that teaches you how to program *and* gives you a background in the mathematical foundations in computing. Whilst you might not use all of directly as a programmer, it's a) a lot of fun for some people, and b) gives you a much greater understanding of what computers can and can't do.
Software Engineering contained a pretty high overlap with CS, but they skipped some of the theoretical stuff to do more on building large software projects in teams using engineering methodologies. I remain skeptical of some of the value of this stuff, but, however, the *practical* experience, whilst rather stressful (trying to play a real software engineer when you've still got other subjects to complete imposes nasty workloads), is useful. It may be less useful for you, as you sound like you've already got a substantial amount of practical experience.
Information Systems was very light on programming. Talking to instructors in the department, it seems like most of the people who come out of it with a degree in IS can barely write a shell script. However, what they do learn is a lot of stuff about business processes and the like. In fact, from both the syllabus and the students, I got the impression that much of the course was basically a commerce degree for people interested (but not necessarily particularly gifted in) IT.
Look, I'm not knocking knowing business processes and the like, but if you like to code, it's a lot easier to learn about business later on (perhaps in an MBA) than it is to learn heavy-duty maths later in life. But then again, you might take the view that you can already code and learning about the business side of IT might be more useful to you.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Very few employeers will go into great scrutiny over what degree you got. They might put some spotlight onto which college you got it from, if it is exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. Because you're in college, you've got to be careful not to focus too much on the degree type. In the real world, for the most part (rogue managers aside), it doesn't matter. It just matters that you got a "computer degree".
Of course, I work with people at a "large company" that have photography degrees, technical college degrees, no degrees, and so forth. Basically, here's what the degree does for you:
In some cases, it gets you hired. There will be some employeers that won't consider candidates without degrees.
In almost all circumstances, it affects your ability to get a promotion. You can't reach _X_ level unless you have a degree. It is a golden rule. The college degree increases your cap. And it doesn't matter which degree you have, from what I have seen.
Since it really doesn't matter much in real life, I would advocate two different goals:
1] Go for the degree that will get you out of college easily and quickly.
2] Go for the degree that will stretch you and help you to learn the most things that will help you along your career as your currently understand it.
Of course, as mentioned earlier, for me, the business courses (which weren't really my main interest) has helped an incredible amount to understand the business world. And that is, after all, where I work!
I'm a Professsor of CS. So I feel qualified to answer.
CIS: A Business degree with computers in it. You will also learn marketing and accounting. You need to like business for this degree. Many people think this is the easiest of the degrees.
Computer Engineering: This is a degree for hardware people. This is a degree for serious geeks who like math and logic, but don't want to become programmers.
CS: This is a degree for people who want to program. We teach algorithms and writing code. We write programs.
Just so we're clear, CS is the coolest of the choices!
-Kitplane01
You have 4 years of experience, then you definatly don't need a CS education unless you feel a need for theoretical input for your everyday situations (algorithmic performance analysis, threading etc) or wish to delve into the theory of parsers, OS etc.
What do you wish to accomplish? A future employer doesn't care what degree you have, as long as you have one. All your degree does is to signal to the surroundings that you can learn and want to learn.
I started out studying engineering and took my masters in the more CS heavy section of IT. I'm at a point where my skills are plenty for any job in my field of expertise, but if I want to go career, I probably could use some business courses. As such, I regret taking some of the hardcore CS courses that deal with stuff I'll never use rather than some soft entry level business courses that certainly would help when trying to become a business oriented tech.
Whatever you chose, just remember that you need to focus on where it has the potential to take you, and if that's where you really want to go. Also, don't study something that doesn't interest you, as that will surely quelch your motivation.
Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
Geocrawler error message.
Don't count on getting an actual useful education, esspecialy since you already have experience. Memorize what they tell you to memorize and then write it on the little peice of paper in different words and hand it to the professor. But do not neccisarily believe anything they tell you that you don't already know.
I've met people with CS degrees that didn't have a clue. They could write C or C++ programs, but they needed strict guidelines, their "skills" essentialy made them word processors. And don't get me started on the CS graduates that don't understand that Windows isn't the ONLY OS out there. (Trust me, they exist, even now)
Go the CIS route with a business minor. CIS means more to most mainstream IT departments (not heavy on the programming side), and it includes the word "computer" which MIS does not. Knock my statement if you want, but it's signifigant on the resume.
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You had to have started off that 5 years with someone who picked you up with no experience. 5 years ago (at _least_), the shape of the industry was very different. Is it still possible to be hired on NO experience; or was that a thing of the past, before everyone started going into CS degrees? You may still be able to find work since you're riding on past experience, but will others be able to have the same experience you had?
I also graduated with a CS degree, so that's the only one I can really comment on. Most jobs I looked into (especially in the SF Bay area) wanted a CS degree, even for SysAdmin work (which to me, means they value something from the degree beyond technical competence, as I didn't take any courses that would have helped me with admin work).
Basically, IMHO, a CS degree will qualify you for just about any TECHNICAL direction you decide to move in. Its definitely what I would suggest.
Why is this question, or one very similar, an ask slashdot about once every week?
My answer:
Get whatever you want you want. All you need a degree for is to get your first job, after that, its experience and references that matter. So, get whatever degree you'll have the most fun getting. Comp Engineers, Comp Sci, College drops outs, we all work together, and we all do the same job. University is just there to seperate the rich from the poor and to enforce the class system.
MIS: Management Information Systems (other variations exist)
CIS: Computer Information systems
CS: Computer Science
CE: Computer Engineering
MIS is more business oriented. In theory, the major is supposed to provide a stong business flow education, while teaching some basic computer skills... enough to have a sense of what is going on.
CIS is very similar to MIS at most schools. Some don't make a distinction. It's supposed to have a slightly more technical side than MIS. This is ideal for people working in IT deparments that want to go the management route, but with the technical side of things. Think of it as a techie with a bit of business understanding.
CS is a science. It has a strong focus on programming, but you also learn about the lower level systems. This is for people who want to really understand not just what a computer is doing on the outside, but the theory behind its internal designs. You will often learn things such as processor architecture, compiler design, etc. This will MORE than prepare you for an IT position, and is what most people in the industry have (that have a degree that is).
CE is very similar to CS. In fact, many schools don't make much of a distinction. However, CE is supposed to be more practically oriented. You still learn much of the theory, just not as advanced of it. What you do learn in exchange is engineering principles. You learn how to apply the theory and existing technology in real world situations... thus engineering. This is what I have. It tends to be a similar difficulty level as CS, but depends on the school. Many schools make this major harder since it carries an engineering title with it. It will very readily prepare you for the real world of computers, in theory.
In light of all of this, each school may vary on their definitions of each major. Keep in mind that the piece of paper may help, but in current times, it's difficult to find a job even WITH a computer engineering degree and 5 years experience. I wish you best of luck, since I myself, am having difficulty.
Cheers,
-Alex
MIS/CIS is more like a trade school degree
That's a load of crap--MIS is a very advanced field. The emphasis is placed on business, the same business courses that are taken by people in human resources, accounting, finance, management, marketing, production and operations management, you name it. The point of the course is to take it in an IT direction, and many of the biggest money makers are the ones who get jobs at places like SAP and PeopleSoft, people who end up as specialists in their management software and can consult regarding the business impact of the software. These people are the ones who get hired by the company through their employer to come tell the company what to do with their business.
The reason it isn't a two year degree is because you actually take courses, just like any other actual degree program. It's a full business program, not a CS program, which is why it's a part of the college of business at universities, not the college of computer science.
Think before you speak, know something about what's involved in a degree program and what you do with that degree post-graduation before you talk.
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I should also add that you don't necessarily *have* to do an IT degree. Interested in, say, philosophy, or a language, psychology perhaps? Studying these at university would teach you as many skills, many of which will help you in your future career, as an IT degree. Don't cut off other options.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I'm a CS major who has taken various IS courses and I have to say there are many differences that I have taken notice of: (1) Class size in an IS course is larger than any CS course (of course I go to a small school so I guess I should say "your mileage may vary" here). (2) The quality of students (I'm just being honest here) is much higher in a CS class. I've seen many IS seniors that have no real interest in computers, just want to find work when they graduate. (3) As far as professors go, every CS teacher I've had is a Ph.D. and IS teachers tend to be adjuncts or assistant professors, at least, for the intro classes. Subsequently, I think that more is expected of you as a CS major.
Basically, I would highly recommend going with CS. It has a more difficult curriculum but it opens your mind to some really interesting topics. So if you *like* to program and learn about interesting computer related topics then go with CS. If you want to be a great office user and "know" the ins and outs of how business works I would go with IS. Again, of course, your mileage may vary.
Good luck,
Dominick
The most important thing to remember about getting any of these degrees is that they are just that: degrees. Oftentimes, you'll find that the most important part of having a degree is not what the degree is in, it's that you have one.
As far as the different degrees go, to say that any one of them is better than the others is really only a matter of preference. It mostly depends on what you intend to do. Think about your true goals. If your desire is to be a great programmer, then a CS degree is probably the right choice for you. If, however, you are more the "project management" type who prefers to organize the team and the work on the project rather than doing most of the "down and dirty coding" themselves, then you should look into CIS/MIS.
Take a look through some course outline manuals provided at your college of choice. Check out the curriculum for each of the programs, and read the descriptions of the classes you'll be taking along each of those paths. This can be a great help in deciding what field you're really looking into.
One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to go for a CS degree when you really don't want to work in a "CS" environment. Make sure you fully understand the term "Computer Science" before seeking a degree in it; otherwise, you're likely to be very unhappy with your college experience.
Just remember, the most important thing is having a degree. Your chosen major often has only minor influence in your chosen profession.
Also, a college degree can open up alot more opportunities than you will have just with your 5 years experience. It's direct proof that you completed a certain course of study with at least a C in most cases, and shows that you are capable of devoting yourself to something worthwhile. IMHO it means alot more than being able to hold a job for 5 years, whose title may or may not have much bearing on what you did.
If an employer sees 'Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science from XYZ University' they know certain things that you should know, and they shouldn't have to worry about you not knowing them.
The best possible way to go is a college degree coupled with some sort of experience or research involvement.
What?
Where I went, the main difference is that CS/CE are run by an engineering school. Hence, the content is more theoretical - you deal with low level hardware and algorithms and data structures, generally the abstract stuff. It's obviously designed to expose a research-like environment and hopefully encourage students to take on postgraduate research.
The IS courses are administered by the school of commerce, and the syllabus is developed with consultation with industry and recruiters. You learn things like Access, VB, Novell and how to hook up a MS/Novell network. They learn Java, but only the language; no data structures or proper OO or any of the things that separate a can-do programmer from a real hacker. Also, they spend half their time doing management and accounting/finance courses, whereas in CS you obviously won't.
In short, IS is about 'practical' and geared to what recruiters want 'today'. CS is about giving you the skills which the university wants in you as a researcher. (but coincidentally are also the skills which make you a better technology worker IMO.)
When people ask me what the differences are, I tell them it kind of like a sliding scale. At one end, it is business only. At the other end, it is computer only.
MIS - This is more towards the business end then the computer end. Basically, a business degree that taught visual basic also.
CIS - Kind of in the middle. More computers then business, but doesn't have the harder math/science requirements if at all. At my university, this is what most people who couldn't hack the math requirements switched to.
CS - More on the computer end then the business end. Programming, theory, and math. I think that this is the most desireable degree of the three, but it all depends on what you want to do I guess.
As everyone says here, MIS is more about buisness. The college I went to had a few courses that crossed over between CS and MIS. So about half way into the semester we get a fairly trivial programming assignment. The night before it was due I happened to be in the computer cluster, and nearby there were about 7 MIS people huddled around a computer trying to figure out how to open a file in C++ (third year students mind you!). From what I've seen, MIS people (in college anyway) can't code their way out of a paper bag. Generally I think you could do a lot more with a CS degree, and a few shiny certifacations.
with a CIS degree you can work on the helpline, with a MIS degree you can run the helpline,
with a CS degree you can create all the software the helpline people have to deal with for years after you;ve moved on to a new,more interesting project.
I got a CIS degree from SUNY Potsdam in New York. The degree was advertised as the best of MIS (IT stuff) and CS (programming). In actuality, there was only really one MIS related course offered (which was mandatory) -- all the rest were strictly CS related, and the vast majority of the CS courses were software rather than hardware related.
So, even though you could claim with a CIS degree to be a "jack of all trades", at my college, at least, you were trained to be a couter programmer, with only a "flavoring" of MIS.
At my school MIS stands for "Microsoft Information Systems". You learn how to use a different office product in each course w/ maybe a little Visual Basic.
CS covers programming but more importantly, a lot of the theory behind computing. You do a lot of math and it's much more difficult. You are not taught to program so much as you are expected to write programs in order to solve problems that illistrate concepts.
Most sigs are dumb. This is one of them.
I will be attending UCF this fall and I am happy to say I will be in a fairly new program in the world of computer education. It is actually an Information Technolody degree program. I myself do not like to program and although i will be going for my MBA after my four year degree I do not want too much business involved with my BS. IT gives me the best of both worlds and focuses more on system operation and networking know- how. How key systems work and how to integrate them together. Find out if your school has a program like this.. i know there arent that many
Where i go to school, http://www.udel.edu, our CS department is called CIS. The 'I' is in the name for historical reasons. You can find a complete history of the department at http://www.cis.udel.edu. We do have an MIS program but its usally pursued as a minor in conjunction with a CS or business degree. I take offense to the posters saying that a CIS degree is a "low trade school" degree. They should have done some more research upon the subject matter and found out that quite a few schools still have the 'I' in the name for strictly historcal reasons.
Actually here it's called BIS for Business Information Systems. I go to a school that most everybody wouldn't consider a shining beacon of technology, although we are pretty strong in engineering.
I chose not to go with CS because I don't want to be a programmer. I think I'd be decent at the job, it's just not what I want to do for the rest of my life. So I chose BIS.
Let me tell you a little about my classmates. I've yet to meet another one who runs Linux (some have tried it). Some of them type slowly (I consider that to be 25 wpm or less). Some of them struggle with what I consider basic computing concepts, such as FTP and command-line input. There are some just plain idiots, but most of my classmates are fairly intelligent, both in "book sense" and in "common sense."
I haven't been too impressed with the faculty so far. My VB teacher probably only knew enough VB to teach the (entry-level) course, and he didn't seem to know much about computers other than that. As an example, someone told me a couple of years ago that in class he mentioned that he couldn't check his school email from home because he used AOL (nevermind that it was entirely possible to telnet in and check it). I had a COBOL professor that I liked, he knew the material and was kind of fun to talk to. I'm taking an advanced COBOL class this semester with a professor who has a masters from Harvard, so I'm looking forward to that.
You'll probably notice that some people talk about what a joke an MIS degree is. In a way, that's true. CS majors have to learn all kinds of technical material (and don't forget you'll probably have to take at least through Calculus 3 or 4 for a CS degree), but they do miss out on some of the business material (hey, not *all* of it is common sense). A lot of BIS/MIS majors will never venture outside the required assignments in an attempt to learn a little more. But it's necessary if you really want to learn and be valuable outside of the classroom.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
An MIS would probably be the best in your situation considering most people you will be working with (clients or management) will have more business knowledge than technical knowledge, and it seems like I've gotten more technical knowledge on my own than from any school (that I can afford to go to). Also most people I've worked can't differentiate between the three degrees.
if common sense was common, wouldn't everyone have it?
It's not as in depth nor does it tackle some of the finer points of algorithmic analysis as CS.
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You'll find that CS degrees tend to concern themselves with the ability to use computers to solve problems in science, especially new and unsual problems (i.e. real problems in research that have never been solved before). CS is therefore much more useful in science and academics for data collection and sophisticated types of analysis, etc.
IS degrees concern themselves with teaching you skills that are valuable not academically but in terms of raw cash in the marketplace, a sort of computing with wall-street emphasis, if you will -- i.e. what skills are selling NOW, in the private sector and are in widespread fashion in business computing. Web pages, e-commerce, deployment, some applications programming, and so on.
There really isn't all that much overlap. A Computer Scientist often really can be a scientist -- you can think of the lab coat and everything -- while IS is very corporate, cash, and business oriented, and few IS graduates have the science background necessary for research computing.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
I would think that a master's degree would be a liability in all but a few situations. When you're starting your first job, I can see someone not wanting to hire someone with a masters degree. And also when hiring someone who has been in the market. The perception is that they'll want a lot of money because of their degree. And although they may sign up if you don't give it to them, they may leave.
My experience is that Masters and Doctors degrees in computer *do* set you apart from others. But usually not in a good way, unless you are at higher levels within a company,
However, you may not need a degree with quite so much theory. From your question, you already have a job, and you're just interested in improving your salary. In this case, a lighter course of study (like MIS) would probably be sufficient.
However, if you're interested in moving to another company (and if your current employer is more interested in some vague measure of qualifications than your actual results, perhaps you should examine your options), you need to consider what potential employers will look for.
While many companies will hire you simply because you have a degree, many others are much more interested in your actual qualifications, as demonstrated in your experience, references, and even an entrance exam. (My current job was contingent on an entrance exam, administered by the technical lead of the project.)
Of course, while your current job is technical, you may be interested in a more managerial position. In this case, an MIS would be more appropriate, and more impressive to a potential employer. In fact, your technical experience and expertise, coupled with a managerial degree, sets you up for a technical management position.
Get the degree for your plan. (You do have a plan?) If you want to go into management, go MIS. If you like your current company, but just want to pump your salary with the least amount of hassle possible, go for a CIS. But if you really want to get down and dirty in a technical position for the rest of your life, go for the CS.
You could also talk to a school counselor. They love this kind of stuff.
Judebert
We're out of explosives. What we need now is a plan!
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cs was a traditional programing and math sort of cs (actually, this is not strictly true...we did a lot more application than your average program)
cis was pretty much cs, but sans the math. They replaced it with business courses
mis was a business degree with some cs thrown in. Probably more like a technical manager sort of program.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Companies have hiring minimums, especially in these hard times. Sure you can find a job without a degree (or with the wrong one) but you wont make as much and will have a much harder time finding it.
I went to Purdue and opted for the Electrical Engineering Technology program. I saw a variety of people in that program and in the Electrical Engineering program. Each were run by their respective schools. Most people want to assume that they are similar programs run by similar people. They are entirely indepedant,however.
As I started looking for a job, I ran into some opposition because most employers in the design field only want EE's. However, if you can prove that your a competent in your field, then your degree only serves to show what your general background includes. I, now, work for Agilent (HP's Test Equipment spin-off.) I'm an application engineer fresh out of college. My only other experience was an engineering internship at Dell. I find it funny I got the job, because I was talking to one of the salesguys I support and he told me that they interviewed several EET type people. However, he wasn't comfortable hiring someone without a EE. My manager decided to go out on a limb because he said I was the only one that he felt comfortable with in the interview. And, surprisingly, I was the only one who correctly explained setup/hold times and crosstalk. When the I showed the salesguy my wallet diploma, his jaw dropped.
He was shocked because he realized it was me they hired and not my piece of paper. Granted, I'm not saying degrees aren't important. What I am saying is, there is more importance on what you take out of the program you choose, than the program itself. I am lucky to have gone to Purdue where all of its acedmics fly high. I am also lucky to have correctly choosen my career path. I exceled where (many many) many like me do not.
when CS people can't figure out amortization schedules and have a hard time mixing financal theory with cost-based accounting systems. sorry, but it's true.
don't buy into the CS / MIS us vs them crap, but rather look for a more generalized answer:
lots of MIS programs will vary. mine allowed us 8 hours (2 semesters of 4 hour classes) of C++ and VC++ MFC programming. I added in some OO programming which taught language agnostic principles. plus there was another 8 hours worth of DB stuff - SPs, tables, schemas, etc. on top of all that, we had several "capstone" classes which matched full semester group projects with business area focus. we had several companies bring in real world business issues which we then solved using our class knowledge (and the companies got a free consulting solution if they decided to use our work!)
i took Cal I and B-Cal - no more, no less. the CIS people i know from my university took Cal I-III and often some other elective mathematical classes.
the real questions is what will you envision yourself working on in 5 years? if you plan on doing business level programming, then the MIS degree is going to give you the requiste background in accounting, finance, and economics to survive. i found employeers were chomping at the bit b/c i had these skills - of course, i interviewed with (and work for) Fortune 300 companies.
we have some CS people at my company - these guys are wicked smart and several of them have military or NASA backgrounds. they do the low level, to the metal programming that our apps need. these guys are not building our accounting modules. that's not their strength. they might be able to - it's just not what they are working on.
with either degree you are not just purchasing a job - you are showing your employeer an ability to learn. my father graduated one of the top engineering schools in 1969. he did chemical engineering for about 3 years and then did all business management stuff for the next 27. his company hired him b/c his degree showed he could think and learn. both a CS and MIS degree from a well respected university will get you this.
good luck and have fun! i miss my college profs about once a month!
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
There's a 509 comment Slashdot discussion from almost a year ago here.
I have about 17 years in the field, primarily business application development, and I have never had a lack of work due to not having a degree. I have also been responsible for interviewing both employees and consultants for some of my clients. My following comments are coming from a business programming worldview as opposed to strictly technical employment.
What type of work do you want? HUGE difference in developing a compiler and building a POS application with inventory, reporting, etc. A CS degree would probably be essential for the compiler job and damn near worthless in the business app situation, at least if the experienced staff programmers get a say in the interview process. A savvy interviewer wants someone with some related work experience and appropriate technical experience. Those things plus an ability to work with confused, busy people and figure things out are far more valuable to a company. Any type degree doesn't hurt of course, but the right type of degree helps more. Also consider taking a minor in something like accounting. Crazy as it sounds, often an accounting degree, or at least substantial coursework, can get you a programming job faster and for more money that the programming degree. A company needs people that help with business problems and that takes an understanding of business. The programming is usually the easier part.
By the way, each year of experience lessens the value of the degree, i.e., a twenty year old CS degree will be ignored completely in comparison to work experience.
No doubt my experience is biased by my work history, but I bet that there is a lot more database related business application work in the world than compiler development.
Student Perspective:
I majored in CIS and minored in CS. The reason? When I started at college I knew I wanted to do something with computers but I didn't really know what and the CIS department gave a much broader sampling than the CS department did. At my school the *only* thing they taught in the CS program was programming, math, programming and programming while the CIS dept. taught programming, math, DBs, web, system analysis, netowkring plus a slew of business classes (including accounting, finance, law, management). I decided to stick with the CIS major since I really liked professors and enjoyed the various classes but I made the decision to pickup the CS minor to help bolster my programming skills since that was the career path I decided to take, at least for a few years.
Employer Perspective:
As someone who has been on both sides of the table during job interviews I can honestly say that it really doesn't make much difference which degree you have. You'll of course run into the occasional CS snob who won't hire a CIS graduate and vice a versa with a CIS snob not hiring a CS graduate (of course, some employers also look down on graduate from certain schools as well). Employers see your diploma as a symbol that you have, for the lack of a better word, the sticktoitness, to work/figth your way through your studies and graduate. What's going to seperate you is the way you sell yourself and your references and past work experience.
Also, keep in mind do what you enjoy.
Here in Canada the MIS degree I am finishing had plenty of programming. It is nearly impossible to finish the "Commerce with Honours in Management Information System" degree in 4 years.
It has the full compliment of Commerce courses, and with, what I would consider, 40% of the CSI courses. Some of the languages we learn are:
C++
Scheme
Lisp
Prolog
Pascal
Java
VB (yes but this is in a business course on CS)
Database Courses (PL SQL, etc)
We have to take all the advance calculus and algebra courses. We do not go into "discrete" math.
I feel confident that I can go into a any software company and start working on any of their code with some simple intros of the project.
The highly respect the MIS degree. Hell, during many of the CS labs, I was the one helping out the CS students create collections in java, and use recursion in Scheme, and inherited classes in C++
BTW: I am not done the degree yet... there is still a micro circuit/logic course and a few more Project Managment courses.
Again, it is a very well-rounded degree. You get from it what you wish to take from it.
Frank
This
if you care about computers you should pick CS. if you care about having people time and dont want to put the effort into really knowing anything, pick CIS, which seems to be a real powder-puff major.
i guess the question really is, do you want to know how to write the programs, or do you want to be trained in how moving the mouse makes the little arrow on the screen move around and which menus to use if you want to do X.
damn, now that i think about cis people, i suddenly feel really angry.
When you take CS you're saying you want to be a scientist. It will come with all the subjects you'd expect from science, including some tough math, physics, etc.
When you take [MC]IS you're saying you want to be a businessperson. Similarly, it will come with subjects relevant to business, like marketing, accounting, finance, etc.
I think generally MIS and CIS are extremely close and schools tend to name them depending on their focus, or perhaps just arbitrarily.
At most institutions, you'll be in a different school based on your choice between [MC]IS vs CS so it's also worth checking out how well your schools of Business and Sciences are run, how praised the professors are, etc. For example, at my university, our College of Business is by far the best run and most popular college of the several colleges we have. Also, the Business colleges tend to be a little bit more tied into the business community at smaller schools, so if you plan to get a local job later and you like networking, you might want to go that route.
By the way, until someone else mentioned something to me a few years ago, I had spelled it "alot" thinking it was the correct spelling. Since not a single teacher corrected me, all the way thru high school on this, I never learned the correct way to spell it. It's not really proper English anyway.
What?
At the risk of being a troll...
CIS/MIS people = more money and they manage the CS folks.
Trust me.. I'm a CIS grad.. and I run the projects and have CS code monkeys working for me. They burn out quick, and new ones are ready for hire within days of getting out of college.
Having a CIS/MIS degree means you are much more valuable to a company, because you can both talk business and computers. While you may not know how to code C++ in your sleep, you know enough to translate to the big CIO's what's going on and what the bottom line is for the business.
And you can also get your Master's in CS if you really want to have the extra edge.
I was wondering this too.....sort of. Im a junior in priso.....err school so i need to look closely at which colleges i want. Taken 2 semesters of VB, hated it. Im going to learn c or perl or something like that soon. In the cisco web-based class, CCNA i think? Anyways, as a student who likes more of the physical side of things....networking, repairing systems, things like that rather than programming, what should i take? It sounded like CIS was good.....but im not sure now. Lots of stuff flying around here.....im confused! Im just not sure if a CS degree would be what i am really intersted in. If you guys have any advice, it would be very welcome!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&o
I have a CIS degree and CS minor and really enjoyed all of the business courses and CS courses. Matter of fact now I own my own IT consulting firm and I think that without the business courses I would have never taken the chance of starting my own business.
I suggest that if you like the business side then go with the CIS degree and a second minor in CS.
BTW, as far as a degree making you a good programmer I think the only thing that can do that is experience, patience, curiosity, and determination. One of the best C/C++ programmers that I know has a degree in Mass Communications.
My 2 cents,
atomicityCTO
I've never seen an MIS curriculum, so wont comment on it, but the CS vs. CIS is pretty simple. So there's gonna be tons of these quick summeries.
CIS usually is a lot of intro level courses in CS and business. Such as in CS, you would take introductionary CS classes, a basic theory one (perhaps only Discrete Structures or maybe one more too), a few general programming classes (System's programing = GUI, etc). Nothing to hard, most programming classes so you know how to code and basics of a computer, but not how to solve problems (algorithms), software design, or see more complex/in depth material.
Instead you get a similar intro into business. Its not a CS degree or business degree. Perhaps its sort of like an associate's in both majors. So its usually considered a joke by CS people since its lighter and not very technical.
A CS degree is not programming, but how to think andn solve problems. Its how to design software, analyze situations, write industrial level code. Its not learning a trade or special skill. The CIS is more like that. But you don't learn business, so an MBA or something would be important.
The difference is what you want to leap into. If your interested in CS and business, and confused on which.. go for the CIS. You can jump either ship later to go more full fledged, or go into masters for more of what you like (CS, MBA, etc). If you know you like both and want to invest the time, do a CS and MBA to get the strongest of both worlds.
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
Maybe I just spell it wrong because of all the spam I get telling me I'm going to WIN ALOT OF MONEY.
What?
Basically the degrees leave you with different options, but as with all things if you really want to go another way when you are finished, its possible.
A CS track is setup so that when you are done you can go into a research oriented program.
A CIS track is setup so that when you are done you can go into a MBA program.
A MIS degree is a terminal degree intended on getting you experience with the software that companies use.
MIS gets you a job and gets you making money. CIS does too and you can end up making even more if you get the MBA. CS is cool if you want to have a more geeky job, like programming games.
Good luck!!
Rob
I strongly think that Steve Wozniak *is* a good communicator. He's great to listen to...his enthusiasm is infectious, and he really knows his stuff.
Any kid who has him as a teacher will probably go on to be a tech superstar. Seriously.
I agree with you on Gates, though...listening to him speak is like listening to Kermit The Frog without the clever and funny lines. And his second in command at MS is worst of all...his idea of communicating is "WOOOOO! GIVE IT UP FOR ME! WOOOOOOO!" and "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!"
--.\\-H--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
It takes three years to get a degree (minimum). Do you honestly want to be poor for three years?
If you are currently hacking in C++, you are probably paid quite well. Trust me, you don't want to be poor again.
I had a similar problem. Went to university to do maths, ended up doing astrophysics, ran out of money, had to get a real job.
A few years later, I discovered you couldn't get a job without a first degree. So, I enrolled with the Open University. I signed on for the MSc in Computing for Commerce and Industry program. I can't speak highly enough about this course.
If you *really* want, you could get the MSc in three years. That would leave you no spare time whatsoever. Four years is attainable. Five years is the most usual.
The great thing is, you don't have to stop working. The hard thing is, it takes 1-3 hours a day of deep concentration.
You don't need a first degree before you start.
It is a *real* postgradute qualification. It's hard. You'll learn about operating systems, software engineering and programming in ways you hadn't thought about. You can do modules in anything from business and marketing to telecoms switching.
It's fun and demanding. At the end you get an MSc from a University that is highly respected globally for it's teaching.
It costs about $9000 over five years.
The best bit is, you can say to a prospective employer "I'm currently working for my Master's degree. Any chance of you helping with money/time?". This defuses the "Why haven't you got a degree?" question.
If you do the Objects couse, you get to learn Smalltalk as well. What more could you want?
If you are going to be job hunting in/near your states capitol or one of your states top 10 cities then the market will probably be large enough that you could get any of the degrees and do just fine.
However, if you're like me, and stuck in a more rural setting then you'll probably want to go with the degrees geared more towards the business end.
All the openings I've looked into in my area are looking for people with experience in particular software packages, not just general CS knowledge. (i.e. JD Edwards, MAPICS, MS Project, etc)
The job I got right out of college was programming in RPG and they still sent me 50 miles away for a couple weeks to take classes direct from IBM. And once I finally got started on the programming I found it was nothing like the RPG they taught in college, which was quite out-dated. Even the IBM courses focussed on writing programs that only generated reports that went to printers. My actual programming was over 50 percent involved in creating interactive data-entry programs which neither IBM or college had prepared me for. I had to learn that from fellow programmers and looking at other source code.
I guess it boils down to this question: what do you want to become (eventually) after you return to the working life.
:-)
...
If you want to become a development guru, who manages the technical side of projects, makes technical decisions, discusses implementation details and really knows & understands the technical choices you'll face and make, CS is the way to go.
If you want to move up the corporate ladder, become a manager who's satisfied with the prespective from 10 miles up, get an MIS degree.
One thing which is important to keep in mind though: most companies will hire you with either degree for the simple matter that you've got a degree and know about computers. What you do (and which direction you develop in) once you've got the choice is pretty much up to you. It really depends on where your interests lie.
I did CS and notice on a regular basis that my technical background is much more solid than the MIS guys I run into. On the other hand, they have a better understanding of business matters, understand accounting issues, etc. Since I don't really care for their business perspective and have pretty technical job, this suits me just fine
A teacher of mine once said "make your job your hobby and your hobby your job". I think this generally is good advice. Study what truly interests you; the rest will fall into place given some time and energy
There are two other degree's that you might want to consider:
Computer Engineering - The difference between this and a CS degree is application vs. research. CE focuses more on the actual application, and hardware side, whereas CS, you'll get more theory and have to do more research.
It really boils down to distance from the hardware. The engineering track will, in general, bring you closer to the hardware, you'll focus more on assembly and C, while the science path will focus on a more abstracted model.
CS would be good for web and application programming, while CE would be used for game and OS programming, which require a more intimate knowledge of the archietechture.
However, this can get tricky, as it will vary by school. Some schools will only teach one or the other, and you will see some coverage from the subject they aren't teaching, while a school that offers both will seperate more.
The other subject you might look at is Computer and Electrical Engnierring. This brings you even closer to the hardware level, you'll be dealing almost exclusivly with Asembler, and will be using a soldering iron more than a compiler.
Consider this for robotics, device drivers, satillite, and embedded device fields.
If you are in the Denver/Boulder area, consider CU - Boulder, they teach Computer Science in the Engineering and Applied Sciences college, and also of Electrical and Computer Engineering.
I'm just going to start this off by saying that no matter what your degree is, you'd better be good at it if you want to get a job. A friend of mine is a CIS minor who is a better programmer than half of the students in our SAN/CS department. Though its true that he shouldn't have any problems getting jobs after his first, it is the first that is the hardest. I imagine that if he were competing for a programming job with a CS major the CS major would win handsdown because of the degree.
Now for my $.02 worth about the MIS majors at my university....
I decided to take one of our lower level CS courses on COBOL to try and kill a few hours. As it just so happened the prof. teaching is the MIS 'liason' in the CS dept. Long story short, I've never ever been in a class were the prof. suggested to the students that the class they were in was too hard and they should take something easier. This was directed specifically at the MIS students. This was a 200 level course, with the prof. suggesting 100 level courses.
When the profs. admit there is an intellegence gap...well, I'll let you go from there.
- My other computer really is a Beowulf Cluster
CS deals with the thoeretical aspects of computation. As is often quoted here on /., Edsgar Dijkstra once pointed out that Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes. Indeed, in your undergraduate curriculum at an accredited university, you will never take a required Computer Science course wherein the main goal is to learn how to program. Always there will be a theoretical end which is sought. In fact, I would say that Computer Science is simply a branch of mathematics which concerns itself with what is computable given a certain amount of time and a certain amount of space, and the classification of known problems via verification of reducibility of various sorts (look up the Cook-Levin Theorem).
Basically, Computer Science is way more enjoyable than learning how to deal with the fleeting technology of the moment, and I recommend it strongly if the search for universal truths is your bag.
P.S. If you just want to learn a language, learn LISP. It's a good one.
MIS: Take this if you want to manage geeks, and actually understand what they're talking about. Take this if you ever want to get promoted. Take this if you like dealing with bureaucratic bullshit for 8 hours a day.
CIS: Take this if you don't want anyone to understand what the fuck you're talking about. Take this if you can't figure out if you want to be a manager or a programmer, and are a wishy-washy pansy. Take this if you like computers, hate programming, and don't care about advancement.
CS: Take this if you like making fun of people in code. Take this if you like sitting behind a desk and staring at a screen for 12 hours a day. Take this if you like being a prick with a superiority complex, and don't need a girlfriend.
MIS: IT dept head
CIS: helpdesk manager
CE: really an EE - hardware designers
CS: programmers - mostly unemployed these days
Since all the programming is being outsourced to $5/hr people in other countries as fast as they can, I'd stay away from CS, the long term potential is limited. CE is preaty hardcore on the math and physics (in a good program) so is not for the faint of heart.
In the end, it's all those OTHER courses you have to take when getting a degree that matter anyway.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
if you're going out and gettting a degree after you are already in IT - dont. i got my BA in studio art and political science- i started IT in web site design, then web dev, now server side open source solutions. i'm saying if you have the skills, your degree wont mean shit unless you have the experience to back it up. i think mentoring or finding a mentor in a new technology is much more useful. one of my mentors has no degree whatsoever, and was on the original foxpro teams (first few versions) he's been IT manager, CTO, and many other roles in IT- not having an undergrad never hurt him- he just dove in. i have another mentor who got a double maj BA in CS and math, and he is also well regarded and respected- in short, one understands theory and programming, the other leans towards real-world implementations and programming. build your value through your skill set, not through an university. you're better off saving you money.
Well, this cartoon (the one on the right) says it all...
(Shamelessly stolen from mit.edu, years and years ago -- mail me if you know who drew it!)
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
I have a C.E. degree from Texas A&M
There, CE is just CS with a EE minor. If I did it over again, I would have taken more CS courses instead of the extra EE.
CS - it's not just programming. I took maybe 5 courses where the point was to learn a specific language. Most of my courses were studying theory & concepts - with projects and labs that required you to write code to prove your understanding of the topic (write a simulator for a round-robin scheduler in my OS class, etc). You had to pick up a lot of skills on your own to complete the projects.
MIS, from what I observed, was geared much more towards spoon-feeding specific technologies, environments and languages.
I signed up for one MIS course when I was a senior, just to pick up some extra credits. The class was in a brand new business building - the prof had a grad student present just to operate the PowerPoint slides!! In most CS courses the prof writes on the whiteboard or uses slides generated from LaTEX, never PowerPoint!! A CS prof would never waste time putting together PP slides for a class.
And, despite what many people have said, I think it does make a difference when looking for a programming job. When we send our recruiter to do on-campus interviews, he fills up as many slots as possible with CS & CE degrees, then MIS. And if a MIS makes it to a site interview, we're going to ask them why they didn't just get a CS degree.
That being said, there are some excellent programmers with MIS degrees - we even have a few working for us. And there are plenty of CS grads who are idiots. But I think the critical thinking and problem solving skills required to be a great programmer are more likely to be developed in a CS grad.
MIS= Management Information Systems
CIS= Computer Information Systems
CS= Computer Science
CE= Computer Engineering
Management Information Systems stresses business and the management of information - minimal programming, etc.
Computer Information Systems is essentially business stuff and programming.
Computer Science is considered Science, so you have to go through much more of the fundamentals of computing, programming, etc. Think of it as a Scientific study of Computers.
Computer Engineering is considered Engineering, so you have to figure out how to engineer the computer.
With MIS you will probably get the highest paid job straight off, but you'll have the least possibility for job growth.
With CIS you are a jack of all trades, master of none, if somebody can find a CS or CE grad they would take preference (especially if they've had 1+ years of experience in business).
Computer Science and Engineering give more room for job growth.
The original poster didn't say he wanted brains, he said he wanted money. CS doesn't give you anything that MIS can't. With the exception of possibly opening you up to becoming a "professional student" with 6+ engineering degrees and no real world experience.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
I am almost finished with a philosophy degree, having also taken a few CS courses (data structures, some lower level classes) and deciding I wasn't enjoying it.
:)
In my case, I made the decision that computers were a hobby - one I was very good at, but not something I wanted to make a career out of. Philosophy has always been my other love. At my university (University of Massachusetts, Amherst), it is a respected and challenging program. Fundamental concept classes include logic (introductory, intermeditate, and modal) and a good historical overview class. The typical undergraduate will also study one or two histories (ancient philosophy and/or modern philosophy), and a number of specialization topics. The latter includes everything from existential philosophy to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
For me, philosophy is interesting, and so I do not find it repetitive. I feel that all philosophy comes down to the same questions: the existence of God, the freedom of the will, human nature and sexuality, and a few others. There is a good deal of room beneath those topical headings, however - what Freud says on sexuality and what Sarte says are rather different. Moreover, these are the questions that make me think, and I enjoy them because of that. It's not necessarily "productive", but neither is going to a museum; both (imo) are valuable, nonetheless.
Choose a major that you like. My advice is to not be concerned with whether or not you'll get the "best" job or pull the largest salary in, but instead to focus on what makes you content. Money is nice, certainly, but it's just a tool. Many of the people I've met (especially while working as an intern as a network security company) seem to have forgotten that, and always seemed to be covering up a certain desperation. If philosophy will save you from that, go for it.
We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
Why are you thinking about getting a tech degree? Many of these programs are going to be geared towards people who are hoping to get the knowledge you probably already have.
There are accelerated programs (2 years, tops) for business that you can take that will move you up the ladder into managerial or directorial roles.
I know that's a simplistic answer, but I'd hate to think that someone would enroll in university with high expectations about what they're going to get only to have the expectations dashed, and stuck with 4 years of fees to pay. Just a thought.
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
This probably will seem very redundant but the fact that 'having a degree goes much farther than what degree you get' is very true. In my dad's old startup company (Cacheflow), there was a high-level officer who did work related to computer engineering exclusively, and it was a very lucrative business at the time (tech boom about 1-2 years ago). Yet, his degree wasn't a Masters in CS, CIS, or MIS, but a Ph.D in Physics.
I guess when you know that much physics, math must come pretty natural to you so learning CS wouldn't be as difficult. Yet it is probably not as important as to what degree you get as it is to pursuing a degree that interests you and works with your natural talents so you can excel while getting the degree. Although I'm not in college yet, I would assume those that find their major fairly easy have more time to explore other research opportunities, but in all likelihood that might not be true. I guess I'll have to find out.
Either way, from observation it seems that you shouldn't pursue a degree and then feel burned out in it, because usually it's more about the type of work you're forced to do in college than it is the subject being taught. When I have to choose, I'll take the one that I'm interested in and can do well in.
The question I find more appropriate is, if you wanted to get the highest level job in a company, would having a specific degree help you attain it or does it then matter on your qualifications as a worker in the field?
Hmm. This seems to be turning into a Slashdot FAQ.
In any case...
It's a great idea to make the sacrifice and go get the degree before it gets even harder to do.
While it varies by employer, the degree for the most part demonstrates your ability to define a goal, then stick with it for a while until it's completed. The lack of a degree is a red flag; while the specific degree figures into hiring decisions, your experience and your ability to explain why you made the choices you did matter more.
Don't forget to use this as an opportunity to develop your communication skills and your ability to interact with people with different backgrounds and priotities. In the end, this will matter more than any specific technical ability or degree.
A lot of posters here have pointed out the difference between the business skills courses (MIS, etc.) and the development skills courses (CS, SE, etc.). I agree with them, and on that basis, I'll offer a small company's perspective, when it comes to recruiting.
We're looking for programming skills. The team leaders here all have a strong programming background, and most of the project management is done by the senior leads. We're even blessed with a technical director who's hands-on, and therefore has at least the slightest idea what he's talking about, which seems to be more than most. :-)
From that point of view, when we're recruiting new grads, we say "any degree", but certainly a higher rating is given to those with a CS or Software Engineering certificate. I know I personally got shortlisted because I'd done a 1 year post-grad diploma in CS after my math degree; other people got listed other ways, of course, but that's what did it for me. With a few years of professional experience behind you, this may be less relevant, but it would still count.
The last people we look at are often those with MIS type degrees. We don't need more managers in a small company. Once, we even had a guy come up to us at a recruitment event, and tell us he wanted to go straight into project management. A quick quiz demonstrated that he knew zip about programming, and yet thought he was qualified to manage a programming team. Needless to say, we never even bothered reading his CV. That's not to say all MIS guys are like this, but it's certainly a stereotype that's all too close to the truth for many.
One guy right at the top of the thread made the point beautifully, when he noted how the MIS guys laugh at CS guys who don't know their [buzzword deleted] from their [buzzword deleted]. Strangely, I've never heard any of the management team at our place use these terms, yet they seem to manage to run projects lasting several years without going out of business. Draw your own conclusions.
Obviously, this may be very different in a large company. Our teams are all small enough that everyone knows what's going on, and communication between team members and different subteams is strong. In a larger company running really big projects, perhaps all those extra management skills are more useful. But for a small outfit, you want the programming background if you're going to get in at all.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
CS != Programming? Well, as I alluded to in my previous comment, I think that depends on the school. In my case, I think my CIS degree was by and large a computer programming degree. At least, that's what you were best trained to do after graduation, and that's what most of the graduates that I kept in touch with did -- including myself.
In fact, I believe that someone with CS theory is much better qualified to be a programmer than someone who takes a few computer programming courses. Let me give you an anecdote from my first job as a contractor to IBM: I was tasked to monitor JCL on s/390 mainframes. To alleviate the repetitveness of manually reading JCL dumps, I was encouraged to write scripts in CLIST to automate parsing of the output. Now, the fact is, CLIST sucks ass. After writing one or two CLIST scripts, I discovered that REXX had just been ported to MVS, so I spent a week self-teaching myself REXX, and wrote the rest of my scripts in that.
When my contract ended, I turned over my scripts to my IBM supervisors. They were dumbfounded. "You wrote these in REXX!" one person exclamed. "Yeah, So?" I asked. "But, but, nobody here knows REXX! We do all of our work in CLIST! How are we supposed to support this?!"
Unbeliveable. No one there had gone to University and gotten CS training. IBM had provided them all with "computer programming" courses, and because no one had taken a course to learn REXX, it was like hitting a brick wall to them.
I have seen this time and again. People with a "Computer Programming" certificate or something or other need to take expensive courses in Java, Perl, HTML, etc., because they never learned the underlying CS theory that I feel is essential to being a real programmer. My college taught me Pascal, and based on the rest of the CS theory, I was able to self teach myself C, C++, Java, JavaScript, Python, the Win32 API, Sockets, PThreads, etc., etc. without ever having to resort to programming classes.
I don't mean to sound like a braggart. I am not some kind of genius or something. I am just trying to point out that having a CS degree that concentrates on software can make you an excellent computer programmer -- far better than simply taking a few night courses in Java will.
So could it be something else that's holding you back?
When I applied for schools (in 1994), I didn't know there was anything except for CS, so I just wrote that down on all the applications. I eventually went to UC Berkeley, and here's the situation there (it's probably not the same as elsewhere, but whatever):
Computer Science is part of the Letters and Science college, which hands out Bachelor of Arts degrees. This is the same college you would have if you majored in English, or Math, or Physics. This ends up meaning that you have very little support from the school, you basically have to figure everything out yourself. Has a heavy math requirement, plus a broad GE-type requirement. This is the program I graduated with.
EECS (Electrical Engineering & Computer Science) is part of the Engineering college, which hands out Bachelor of Science degrees. These are accredited engineering degrees, versus the CS degrees, which are not. Since you are part of the much smaller Engineering college, you get a professor as a personal advisor, all your administration work goes through a different office that doesn't deal with nearly as much volume. You have more flexibility with your requirements, except you MUST take 3 semesters of Physics (part of the Engineering requirement). The Physics 7-series is known for being very hard. All the CS courses are actually the same as the other CS degree, it's just a different system.
People who failed to get into either of those majors (you had to maintain 3.0 or higher GPA, probably 3.5 or somesuch now) would usually go into Cognitive Science (CS + psych + philosophy focused on thinking) or Applied Math, both of which allowed you to take some of the CS courses (only authorized declared majors could get into upper division CS courses).
I don't know of any CIS or MIS programs at ALL at Berkeley, though perhaps in the business school. Most everyone in my classes that I met fell into one of the 4 majors above. The only real engineering degree is EECS, but I haven't found that anyone that seemed to understand or care about the distinction.
As someone who interviews people on occasion, while the interview is, of course, most important, I think I would be less impressed with a CIS or MIS degree than a CS-type degree. Admittedly, I have only a vauge inkling of what the other two even are. I would have to say there's more prestige with a CS degree at most places.
-If
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
that would be a great idea. unfortunately, many schools segregate the programs, so that those business school electives would not even count as electives in your CS program. essentially, you would be taking them for "fun" or personal achievment. nothing wrong with that!
IMHO - take all the math you can get, if you are a math oriented person. upper level math teaches skills that cannot be learned in most other areas of education. for me, i am wired as a non-math person. i can and did take some Cal, but i really didn't enjoy it and it showed: it was one of the few Cs i ever received.
so besides picking what you think you will enjoy in the future, also pick what you think you will enjoy overall. afterall - your career will span your lifetime!
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
This will vary by the college or university that you consider attending. I graduated from the Electrical and Computer Engineering department of Purdue University in 1999 with a B.S. in Computer Engineering. My brother graduated this past December from the Computer Science department. I work with several people who graduated from one of the schools of technology. I would summarize the various degrees as follows:
A number of people in Computer Engineering later switched to Electrical Engineering or Computer Science, as they wanted to focus either more on hardware or more on software. All three degrees (EE, CE, CS) received approximately the same number of offers at graduation, and at roughly the same pay level. Students from the Technology department received just as many offers, but at a lower pay level.
I would suggest that if you liked your IT job, go for a Technology degree with a minor in management. You may not get as much utility from a CS or CE degree.
Well, as an MIS doctoral student, I am particularly unqualified to answer this. But I'll give it a shot anyway. :)
Information Systems, even without the "Management" in front, is, generally speaking, interested in the application of technology. It concerns how to apply systems (such as web sites, knowledge management systems, agent software, etc) to businesses and other organizations in order to improve the organization concerned. As a result, IS courses tend to teach some programming, web design, etc, some general systems theory (especially in postgrad work), along with buisness and management concerns. It produces an interesting mix, and although prejudiced it does seem to have value in the future. One advantage is that it tends to be good as a second degree or for postgrad study - so it might be worth considering after you complete another degree.
Keep in mind, though, that it is not so much about creating applications - more about applying existing concepts. So I doubt you'll learn much about software development.
CS, on the other hand, is all about programming. If you really feel you need a degree, but you wish to stay on your current career path, then perhaps CS would be a better choice. Then if you love study, you could use your CS degree to do part-time postgrad work in IS.
At any rate, IS in particular varies considerably according to the institution, as the field is still being defined, so it would be worth doing a fair bit of shopping around first.
I think the most important knowledge you can gain from university is the theoretical foundations behind programming - namely, the principles and design of algorithms and data structures. Your don't necessarily need theoretical computer science (finite state devices, pushdown automata, Turing machines - they're fun, but you could just read Neal Stephenson), but I have many MIS-degreed colleagues who come unstuck when a new technology arrives because they never learned the fundamentals.
My university (Canterbury, New Zealand) did not have a specific MIS department. Instead, the Accountancy department had some MIS-type courses (business focus, some simple programming in DBase, which was a waste of time), and the Computer Science department had some other MIS-type courses (systems analysis and design). So my degree includes system-oriented CS, business-oriented CS, business-MIS-theory, and theoretical CS. I recommend the subjects in that order.
I have a CIS from SUNY and I have never taken a business course. The curriculum has largerly been a standard CS package -- compiler construction, operating systems, theory of computation, optimization, etc.
While you are likely to get a variety of answers from posting on /., you might wish to consider asking that same question to the admissions (and department faculty) at the schools you apply to. Be sure that you understand how each school considers each major and what their focus is. I'm sure answers will vary from school to school as well.
thanks for the link!
here is the U.S. link for those of us on this side of the pond.
again - great idea...appreciate the link (as i forward it to my brother who is currently in college!)
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
Get at least a BS in something with at least a minor in CS or CIS as fast as you can. With the 4+ years experience in the field, you can probably CLEP (test) out of quite a few of the courses with applied credit.
From what I've seen, you could get a BS in bird watching and still meet the specs. heh strange but true.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
What do you want to do? If you want to program and do more technical tasks, get a CS or CE degree. If you want to manage or lead, get a CIS or MIS degree. Once you pick, look to see what the school offers. At my college, the MIS program is Business with computers and CIS is Computers with business. I find that the MIS people are less technical than the CIS people, and that the CS people are a lot less business savvy than the CIS folk. The CS people can complete tasks well, but they don't always have the vision needed to manage a task.
I choose CIS because I like managing and technology, and don't see myself programming, but this is up to the individual. I also plan on follwing my CIS degree with a MBA.
I'm a professor of CS. Here's how I see the following degrees.
So there you have it. In terms of difficulty, I think the CE is toughest, followed by CS, then MIS and SE, then IT and CIS. In terms of perception, I think CS and CE are perceived with the most respect, then MIS and SE, then IT and CIS. Strange how perception follows from difficulty. :-) If you want to program, get CS. If you want to do the business side, get MIS. If you want to build hardware, get CE. CS has by far the most job options. If you don't know what you want to do, and you can hack it, CS is the right route.
My sister finished her MIS degree two years ago.This degree deals mostly with management, with some emphasis on information technology. My sister is now a technical project manager (the project is technical, not the manager). What she does exactly is tell the programmers what to do, what is needed, assign resources to tasks, etc. If you want advancement, that's a great degree. The MIS degree gives her a BBA, so it's clear that's more administration than science. If you're like me and like hardware stuff, I recommend computer engineering. I you're into kernel hacking or database stuff, CS is best. So it all depends on what you really like.
As I learn more and more, I realize I don't know much.
My undergradute degree is Computer Engineering -- programming is what I do -- in fact, many Cpr Eng grads end up in software either by choice or because there are roughly 10 software jobs for every hardware jobs.
In fact, the most common degree in our dept is some flavor of Engineering, but we've got a couple of Physics people, a couple CS, and some odder ones too.
At this school, anyway CS, is for people who like theory, not programming.
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
Having a college degree is VERY important - in fact much more important than having a 'specialized' certificate (such as a MSCE or CISCO networking certification). Over the years, I've worked as a level 4 programmer for several organizations (including the government) - with only a BS in CHEMISTRY!
Higher education is not about learning how to do somthing, it's about becoming teachable, and learning how to adapt and overcome challenge.
Employers do not simply look at WHAT you know, or how your grades are. Character and experience play a MUCH larger role in determining if you are worth hiring. If you want to gain the job of your dreams, you have to sell yourself well enough to get the job (and the pay) that you desire.
My advice: find somthing that you enjoy to do, and learn to do it well on your own. Don't expect to become a good programmer or a good 'IS-geek' by education alone. If you really want to find happiness in a carreer, you need to take your 'people skills' seriously. Anyone can study long and hard enough to get good grades or certifiactions - but if your a total 'assmunch', then it won't matter how good you are at your job - you'll be fired as soon as the management can find reason to.
Don't worry about the courses you take in college to help guide your carreer. Study the subjects you enjoy, and don't be so narrow-minded as to not persue other interests outside computer sciences. There's nothing more valuable or as fulfilling as having a diverse education.
Since the "bubble burst of 1999", obtaining a degree is now more important
than ever. Demand back then for experienced workers was extremely high,
thus many employers were willing to overlook a formal education and base
hiring decisions mostly on experience. That however is not the reality of
today.
As demand lessens, considering the state of the economy and industry,
employers are now looking for not only experience but a relevant degree. Now
more than ever, persons without degrees will have complications not only
finding jobs, but also have difficulties in moving up the ranks.
Persons that have obtained a relevant degree earn significantly greater
wages, and have a heightened likelihood of advancement and promotion. These
individuals also tend to experience greater job security for obvious
reasons.
The decision between MIS, CIS, and CS is entirely up to you. Which one
interests you the most? Which do you have more of an inclination and
passion toward? This is a very important decision since it very well
may affect the outcome of your life. Make a choice based on what you
feel is in your best interest. Which field do you see yourself being
most successful and happy in for the next 40 years of your life?
While information technology/systems has strong roots in computer science,
there are some important differences. These differences fall into
professional and curricular categories.
At the professional level, the computer scientist tends to view computing
from the computer's viewpoint. In contrast to the vision of information
technology, the computer scientist tends to build and extend the underlying
technology, while the information technologist tends to apply available
technology to solve real-world problems for people. The computer scientist
tends to be motivated by the computer itself, by how it works under the hood,
while the information technologist is motivated by using the computer as a
tool to solve problems for people. Another way of describing the difference
is that the information technologist identifies a need for technology,
which the computer scientist then creates, and which the information
technologist finally helps people to use effectively.
At the curricular level, information technology differs from compute
science in many respects. First, there is a stronger emphasis on programming
in computer science than in information technology. Information technologists
certainly build software applications, and programming is certainly a
critical skill in IT, but the style of programming in IT differs from that
in Computer Science. The typical IT project involves gluing together available
components in high-level environments and providing an accessible interface
to the functionality those components provide. The typical computer science
application involves writing large programs from scratch using traditional
programming languages and focusing on software architecture, data structures
and algorithm development issues. Computer science also requires significantly
more math and science than information technology, mainly because extending
the underlying technology requires a more thorough mathematical foundation
than applying that technology. Finally, the computer science curriculum is
"deeper" in that there are more required prerequisites for the intermediate
and advanced courses in CS. Information technology has a flatter prerequisite
structure, which facilitates the transfer of students into IT from other
majors.
If you can't decide between computer science and information technology,
start in computer science because CS credits will transfer to IT more easily
than vice versa and "catching up" in IT is more feasible.
The main difference between information technology and information systems
(IS), also called management information systems (MIS) or computer
information systems (CIS), is that IS is a business program that focuses on
the applications and implications of computing in the business domain. IS
students take the Business core and approach computing from the perspective
of a manager in the business domain. IT does not focus on any single domain
but instead focuses on the selection, integration and deployment of computing
technology throughout society.
Jobs in information technology and computer science are found in industry,
government, business, and the service sector at all levels. IT grads
take positions with job titles like Web master or content developer,
network or systems administrator, facilities manager, user support
specialist, database developer or administrator, multimedia developer,
systems analyst, application developer, interface design specialist,
testing and quality assurance specialist, instructional designer, or
technical marketing representative. CS grads take positions with job
titles like computer scientist, software engineer, senior software
developer, systems programmer, kernel engineer, systems engineer,
security administrator, infrastructure engineer, and embedded software
engineer. Naturally this is not an exhaustive list, and some overlap
may occur.
Good luck, you're on the right path!
--- Fox
I'm a recent graduate from the University of Wisconsin - Whitewater, which is one of the top rated MIS/CIS schools in the country, and is a 6 time AITP 4-year program award winner. That said, I can only tell what my program was like at UW-Whitewater.
The program I was in was called Management Computer Systems. It wasn't exactly MIS, CIS, or CS... based on the responses to this story, the closest major at other schools would be CIS. The program was co-run by the schools of Business and Letters and Sciences, and featured professors from both colleges.
My program offered two tracks - both ending up with an MCS degree, but one with a BA through the Letters and Sciences school, and one ending with a BBA through the Business school. There was very little difference between the two, and both were considered equally valuable. The major differences was the BA degree required additional calculus classes and two courses in assembly, where as the BBA degree that I took offered 2 additional business courses and only required a "Short Calc" for Business students.
As for the rest of the curriculum, it included courses in C++ (Procedural and Object-Oriented), C++ and Data Structures, Pascal, Java, Cobol and File Structures, and an elective in Visual Basic. It also included the requisite courses in Database Design and Analysis and a year-long course in System Analysis and Design. On the business side, you were offered courses in Accounting, Statistics, Macro and Micro Econ, Production Operations Management, and a capstone class that included elements from all the business courses.
I'm slightly biased as well, since the career track I'm on right now put me back into academia working as a computer technician with a local college, so much of the business training I got has so far gone much to waste - but if I had taken the other job I was offered out of college, as a consultant/contractor/whatever, I probably would say the business courses I was offered would offer me a broad skillset that would come in handy. It allows one to look at the big picture - not only what's technically feasible, but also what is fiscally responsible and what fits the business rules that exist already.
I can say though that the CS majors were those who wanted to focus more on researching and creating the technology, rather than the planning and implementing of the technology. I would have to say that you would have to love the science and mathematics of programming to really enjoy CS, while the major that I took offered me just enough programming to be able to program and understand what the CS people produce, but at the same time cross the org chart boundaries and explain that programming to the suits over in accounting and management.
There are three kinds of degrees: Computer Engineering (CE), Computer Science (CS), and Information Services (IS). All people start out studying CE, but the ones that the Electrical Engineering is too hard/boring for drop down to CS. The ones that find math/theory/command lines too hard then degrade even further into studying IS. Of course, some people jump right in where they belong, but I know I had to start out in CE and drop to CS before finding my niche. I just pitty the people who drop further to IS...
Although, I do know one guy who went from CE to CS to IS and back to CS. I guess he had to have a little of each before figuring out what the good one is.
Posted from the wireless couch.
Look at the requirements for the degrees
and go for the one where the classes look
the most interesting. That way you'll be
qualified for a career you'll enjoy.
Get a BS in Business Admin. Being in my senior year of my undergraduate degree, I will go so far as to say it was worthless. Especially if you alerady have job experience. With the Business degree, you will learn how to navigate the buisness world. You can always pick up technical skills on your own.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d- s: a-- C++ UL+++ P+ L+++ E--- W+ N+ o K- w-- O M V PS+ PE Y+ PG
I'm interested in Network Administration, and Network Engineering. I would eventully like to be working on internet backbone operations and things such as that. What is a good degree for that kind of thing?
Trying is the First Step to Failing --Homer Simpson
It is a very difficult thing to do, but search your soul and ponder what you REALLY want to do. Don't just think about the next job, or 5 years from now, but try to imagine yourself THIRTY or fourty years from now! What do you think you would like to be doing then?
I have been working as a systems administrator for 5 years while getting a degree in Middle East Studies. I'm still working as a Sysadmin - pays the bills nicely. But now I'm working on an MBA, though I seriously considered backtracking and getting a Masters degree in Computer Engineering (I have already finished 2 years of engineering). The moral of the story is that I don't really want to be an engineer, and I don't want to be a systems administrator. I do want to work with companies that want to work in the Middle East. My tech skills won't be wasted - if I ever become a PHB, I'll at least understand the poor techies when they sigh at the other PHBs who demand that all internet services be served from Microsoft IIS and Exchange!
Read the book "The Alchemist" by Paulo Coehlo. It's all about finding your "personal legend" - that thing that you truly want, and then trying to get it. Find what you want to do - in the long term. Nothing you learn is wasted if you find a way to apply it and use it. Learn those things that help you be what you really want to be.
It's not about the degree... it's about you.
I know at WPI an MIS degree is geared towards business applcations like database administration. Its also considered an "easy" major, but makes very respectable coin! Only basic level Computer Science and Engineering classes are required; the rest are business classes.
A CIS degree is a cross between a CS and an MIS. We had this degree until a couple years ago, at which point we cut it in half and consolodated to MIS and CS.
A CS degree is almost pure programming here. Primary focus' are C++ and Unix, with some Assembly classes. You also need to take statistics and algorithm math classes too.
Hope that helps you out!
adam
I've got a BSc 2(i) with Honours.
I also have good spelling and decent grammar.
The Degree helped me get my first job (supporting a few hundred Windows 3.1 users). Being Unix-oriented, I switched to another job (so having a job already did help). From then on, my degree has got me nothing that my brain didn't already give me.
The Degree (much more so than lower qualifications) shows some understanding of the subject, but most of all, it shows an ability to learn, understand, and communicate ideas. So I would happily consider a Psychology graduate for a programming position.
When I view CVs (which I do every few months), I consider their experience in particular systems we're interested in, then their experience, considering their qualifications all the time.
If they've got a degree, then that tells me something about them; if they don't then I look for that something in other experience they have. A CS degree would be preffered to a MIS degree, but a similarly logical degree, such as Geology would also stand the candidate in good stead. A degree in a more specialised field, such as Physics, or Marine Biology, would cause suspicion as to why the person does not know what field they want to work in - but that would be an interview question... so if that's the only doubt, they'd have to get an interview before we could ask that (and there could well be a very good answer).
A degree can give you the chance to take time out to study the details behind various aspects of your field. It also gives you something to put on your CV. But IMO, experience counts far better than a degree.
Sure, it's a foot in the door, but when I was 25, I got a job under a 24-year-old who'd spent his time working his way up the corporate ladder. By that time, I'd got experience *and* a degree, but he was getting paid more than I was.
Money may not be your motive (it's certainly not mine!), but if you have no qualifications at all, are still in a job, but want better qualifications, then:
1) See if your current employer will send you on any training courses, which you can add to your CV
2) Consider the job you want, the qualifications they require, and pay your way through it before you leave your current job.
So sure, if you want a qualification, get a degree, based on what you think you can do, and what kind of work you want to go into. But if your 4+ years experience are full-time, with a bona-fide company, and you don't want to shift career paths, then it'd be 3 or 4 years of poverty, to emerge back into the working life way below others of your own age (assuming you're 30 YOA)
Steve.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Damn, you made my point, and now me flaming this so called professor would be redundant, but I, too, have an CompE bachelors, and am a solid programmer.
I feel knowing the inner workings of a CPU, along with compiler theory, and software engineering classes has really increased my coding, and made me a more efficent coder. Also, OO and high design are usually easier to understand by an engineer. And in the business field, you can be the greatest coder in the word, but if you have a bad design, you are still coding crap. Lets face it, design is underrated, and its one of the primary focus' of any flavor of engineering.
My senior year was CompE electives, and I didn't have a single hardware course. My courses were mainly intelligent systems and OO courses.
Sure, I can't tell you the hardcore CS theory behind everyone of my programs, but I can tell you why I chose the specific design and algorithms for each project. And I still get contract jobs, somehow...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I'm currently a third year student at an upper midwestern state university and I have struggled with the BA CS vs. BS CS question. I hear arguments on both sides, BA people saying the BS is the number crunching and not fun, some called it tunnel vision, all while the BSers saying Ill never get a job if I dont go BS... anywho, Im elected the BA, and it is too late to turn back (because I dont want to be in college til Im 30). With the BA I get to pick up 4 semesters of French, and a minor, while the BSers get the calc and another math class.... what do you guys(gals) think? oh ya, as far as a MIS, at least where I go, the MISers are the ones that were in CS and couldn't make it... but for some people it is the way to go.
CIS major's become the bosses of the CS people. While not as well versed in programming, their strong points are integrating tech. in a business enviroment. That is why they suffer through all those damn accounting and business law classes....ack!
Mind if i ask what school you went to? Basically I dropped out of UMass because I couldn't do the math and physics reqs (5 math, 2 physics courses for a cmpsci degree). I'm pretty much done with the actual CS track though. They don't offer a CIS degree.
At my university IS, CS, and CE (computer engineering) degrees are offered. Both CS and CE are through the engineering college and focus heavily of typical engineering skills (physics, math). CE includes more low-level electrical skills, although not as much as electrical engineering.
In CE and CS theory is strongly emphasised. I don't think a real database (ie sql server) class is even required. Lanagues used are typically C++ and assembler, with a bunch of other used sparingly (smalltalk, java). In contrast, the IS degree has a bit of c++, although its the same c++ that mechanical or chemical engineers take, and a lot more current lanaguages, like asp, oracle, etc.
I'm in the CS program, and to me, the biggest benefit is that while my education is very theory-oriented, the program requires that I co-op full-time for 6 quarters (two quarters consecutively, working, not taking classes). This university has the oldest co-op program in America (100+ years), and they do a pretty good job helping you find a job. We've had people at Intel, Compaq, NASA, Apple, TI, etc. What's great about it, is that through co-oping I've had a chance to learn asp, oracle, sql server, flash, active-x stuff, xml, etc. Moreoever, I've worked with these things in a real business enviroment.
I should note that the IS people also co-op, although its not required for them, and they typically do less quarters co-oping. Where I work, my experience has been that in general, co-ops coming from an IS background come to the table with more immediate skils (like oracle), but typically can't pick up new things as fast, or do heavy math. Of course this is a gross generalization, but the trend seems to be there.
So my take: screw the IS degree; take a strong theoretical CS-type degree, but augment it with real-world experience co-oping or interning.
"Everything you do will be more fun." -MS Win95 Install.
I'm a Junior in high school wanting to go into a computer major in college. Right now i like the idea of distance education (whole different post that doesnt belong here) the only place that offers MIS CS and CIS is http://www.accis.edu I really stink at computer programming plus i pretty much hate it. I'm in a beginner Visual Basic course and I just dont like writing code and dont think I fit into any of these majors anyone know if i do or know of any others? sorry if this doesnt belong here i just dont know where else to put it. by the way ive only been in alg 1 and got a C in that, shows you how much I hate Math. X00M
An MIS degree is almost worthless IMHO. You can't go to school to learn management. You can get to school to improve management abilities, but it's something you have to have a knack for.
A CS degree is watered down enough as it is. In fact, I would suggest doubling majoring in some sort of applied science (either some sort of engineering, or applied physics). Of course, if you plan to work on spreadsheet programs for the rest of your life, the extra degree is pointless, but if you work in the aerospace industry, or any kind of interdisciplinary job, you'll find the extra degree will make you that much more valuable because you are able to bridge the gap between the programmers and the scientists.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
My suggestion: Get a CS undergrad degree, then grab an MBA later on. Spend time as a developer, an architect, a project manager. Pick up business knowledge on the way. Then go back for the MBA. It would be hard to do it the other way around (business, then CS/MS in CS, etc). This makes for a well rounded individual, at about the right age. YMMV...
There was an earlier discussion on /. about an administrator of some sort who had no degree and felt he was being overlooked. He probably was and will be until he gets that piece of paper. My boss has told me that if there is ever a round of lay-offs, those without degrees go first....always...
7 64 987
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=25408&cid=2
The majority of those in management will almost always want a degree holding individual over a someone without. Not only that, certifications without experience will get you so far. We recently interviewed a guy for a PC tech job who had an A+ certification but was working in a Jewelry store (HR made us interview him, IT didn't want to...).
Bottom line is to have that piece of paper to show your ability to persevere.
Sit back and relax as Windows 98 installs on your computer.
I work in the math/computer science department of a university, and am a dual major in math/computer science. The difference at my university is this,
With computer science, you study not only programming, but it's very heavy into theory and mathematics. There is so much math with this degree that I only take four extra classes to get a BS in math. At my university, people that can't hack the CS curriculum usually go to CIS. They have classes on several different languages and it seems like if you want to learn how to do loops in six different languages, then take CIS.
Pretty lame, and at least at my university is not taken very seriously. Honestly I know nothing about the buisness degree so I won't comment on that.
The question is amusing becuase of this same mixed message that keeps getting sent out. You want to get a degree so that you can be seen as promotable via vis you can continue to learn, etc. At the same time, those that want to hire know that you, I, and everybody else who have achieved an eduction expects to compesated at some level for bringing that to the bargining table. Yet there are those that are somewhat shy about telling you that an education puts you beyond their "needs" or "requirements" for the position.
The point being is this: If you are currently employeed in a more or less secure position ask your supervisor/manager/whatever if the company will help out in some way first. First of all, this can help to avoid the situation that I'm in right now. Secondly it can help keep the school bills a bit lower as most employers have some sort of program to help defray the costs (as at the same time they can benefit as you are earning your degree).
heck, i studied economics in school.... now i'm doing UNIX sa work (not hard core programming) at a major investment bank. it's nice when your hobby can become a job. :)
jon
-- http://www.cerastes.org
I'm working on an Industrial and Systems Engineer degree (which doesn't depend a lot on computers) and am currently working as a J2EE developer. It's not so much the degree that you've obtained but that the degree that you _did_ obtain shows you can take in some higher level understanding and can work to prove it. Look into what the school offers in their respective programs and focus on what is more interesting to you.
The differences in the degrees is easy enough to find out -- just look at the differences in the cirriculum. As far as what you can do with each once you get out...
Generally, the MIS people work in (or sometime are) the IS/IT departments of a company -- they're the people who keep the computers running, and develop the software used to keep the business running, often by starting with a known package and tweaking it to meet the company's needs. These folks are responsible for things like the payroll systems, purchasing, employee tracking and so on.
On the other hand, the CS people are generally on the product development side -- they're the ones writing the control systems for the satellites, writing the DSP code for en/de-coding MP3 files, designing missile control systems, writing compilers or designing operating systems. THere's a big research side to CS.
There's certainly some cross-over and the two sides are not exclusive -- you'll often find a bunch of old physics guys doing the CS-type work, for example.
My experience has been that the CS side pays better in industry.
I have a just completed my college degree, and I can not stand college grads. They are very naive and inexperienced. I had already had a few years of IT experience before college. I have also worked in the field during school. I fought the boredom of school, just so I could say I have done it. I ended up teaching most of my IT instructors more than they taught me and also tested out of more that half my computer related classes.
I believe a college degree is a great achievement, but it will not be what will get you hired by me. I would rather hire someone based on their experience, motivation and self achievement than someone with just a college degree. The unfortunate thing is that most recruiters and hiring managers are looking for the paper and not the good employee.
People like you make me angry. Just because a person chooses a different path than the boring college route doesn't make them less of a professional. I believe programming is already a very respected profession.
Knowledge is Power, no matter were it is learned.
Having attended three different academic institutions over the past 24 years, and receiving both graduate and undergraduate degrees in electrical and computer engineering and computer science, I can say some things about what I've observed. One way schools can be divided is by the emphasis they place on research vs. teaching. A computer science degree from a research oriented school will tend to focus more on the science part of CS, such as theory, operating systems, compilers, etc. because they are interested in generating more graduate students to do research. A CS degree from a teaching oriented school will tend to focus more on applied subjects like programming, databases, software design, etc. because they are mostly turning out people who will immediately be looking for outside jobs. Degrees from either kind of school are fine for getting a job afterwards, since many of the same core subjects will be taught virtually everywhere and many employers won't really know the difference. However, if you plan on applying to graduate schools later for a more advanced degree, they will know which category your school fits in.
One way to divide programs within schools is by which college or major division runs the program. Some schools have CS programs originating from an engineering college or division, while others tie them into an arts and science college or division. At some schools, the CS programs have had their roots in the math department. Programs with engineering roots will generally require the student to spend more time fulfilling engineering-specific requirements such as calculus, circuit theory, physics, etc. This often doesn't leave much time for other electives. Programs with roots in arts and science will have their own sets of required courses, which may allow time for taking more business oriented electives along the way.
Computer engineering (CompE) degrees are often a hybrid program between a traditional CS program and an electrical engineering (EE) program. Whether you get more or less software vs. hardware in these programs depends a lot on which department has the most influence at a particular school. Sometimes the program is run as a joint one between two different departments, and their quality depends a lot on the amount of cooperation that exists between them. Be careful to check with other people who have gone through a particular CompE program to see if they believe the program was successful or not in bridging the two disciplines and what approach was taken.
The general rule to take from all of this is that there are no general rules differentiating the kinds of programs at different schools for CS and CompE programs. Each school is different, and you need to investigate each one thoroughly to see if going there will meet your needs.
As a CS guy I've snidely referred to MIS programs as "majoring in Word and Excel". My experience has been that CS curricula teach you "how computers work" (which isn't just programming) whereas MIS curricula teach "how to use computers to get TEH MONEYS." Which you choose depends on what you want to do but CS people usually have much deeper knowledge of the technology involved. (There are CS guys with strong business skills also.)
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
I'm in a similar situation - programmer for the last 4 yrs but no degree / certs.
A couple of days ago I spoke with a recruiter at Phoenix U. I asked him about the value of certs like Sun Certified Java Programmer, MCSD, etc., and he said they would be evaluated for credit. He mentioned specifically that the MCSE stuff definitely has translated into credits. He further told me that between CLEPPING some exams, your certificates, and your real world experience (yes, they evaluate that too), you can get up to 60 credit hrs. right off the bat. That leaves about another balance 60 credit hours or so to graduate, which translates to two years, 10 - 15 hrs. per week of homework, and all of it can be done online.
I'm looking at some other schools too, but that's what the people at the U. of Phoenix said.
I went to Boston College where I attended the business school and got a concentration in computer science. It was the best of both worlds for me because I was able to see the business side and also learn how to program. I'm currently a consultant working on a heavily business orientated project but I find that I'm pretty marketable within the firm because I can program. I hope that this helps in your decision. I know I went through a difficult time trying to figure it out for myself.
Besides, I'd bet Jeremiah Johnson's native language is English.
I am currently a sophomore in a 5 year dual degree program. Hopefully at it's compleltion i will have both a bachelors and a masters degree in computer engineering. My question is do employers look down on these 5 year programs? Would it be advantageous for me to just do the normal 4 years and then head out to another university for a masters degree? Just curious... andy responce would be appreciated.
-Windchill2001 The One, The Only, The Cold...
I started out on the buisness side, and was driven to the general computer science field my my love of math, and engineering. In the end you have to go with what you love. I need three non-essental classes to graduate, and I can not get a job. I have written my own programming language, designed my own CPU, but everyone I talk to is looking for that degree. In the end I think you should go for what will make you the happiest. I started programming, and reading math books, I may not be able to get a job doing these things, but I have never regreted the choices that I have made. follow your heart, and it will never lead you wrong
Like many of the previous posts, I'd say that a CS degree has the most prestige and carrying power for your career. But I'll add that _where_ you get the degree may matter more than the kind of degree. Check out the classes available and required for the degree at the schools you're considering. There's a big difference between a degree at Berkeley and one at your local Junior College.
mahlen
... this older and somewhat relavent Ask Slashdot article.
This reason for this is because MIS is generally a far easier program. It's hard to 'weed' the weak ones out once they are in the program. In CS, most of the weak ones have already switched to another major by the time a data structures course comes around (second or third semester of a four year program.)
There are two benefits to going to school for a degree:
- You meet people who might be able to help you find employment, you get this more in a college with a "name". The private colleges with biggest names are MIT, Stanford and CMU. The public ones are University of Michigan and UC Berkeley.
- Completing a Bachelor's degree proves to any employer that you are willing to put up with four years of bullshit to achieve a goal, a Masters means even more. This is very important to prove to the business world, because they expect you to wade through more bullshit, this is why they call it work.
From my point of view, none of the academic computing programs teach enough job skills to be able to say "ok, anyone with a BS in Computer Science can do this job", so it really doesn't matter what the degree is in. A B.S. holds more weight with me than a B.A., since a B.S. from a College Board accredited school means that you can do math and put together a lab manual, both of which show skills that are useful (but not essential) in a typical IT job (yes, I know lab manuals are not standard in computing, I'm talking about the skill of being able to write down what you are doing, which is important).Beyond that, Physics is as good as Computer Science, Philosophy as good as Scuplture. Don't skimp on learning computing skills, and experience on real computer projects, that's essential, just not the name on the degree.
The bottom line for me, a degree means the person has a small edge over the competition, everyone has to prove to me that they can learn, but college grads don't have to prove as much that they can put up with crap, the degree says so. The edge is a small one, at least in my book.
Now, I know that there are plenty of jobs that won't even give you an interview unless you have letters after your name. If they are more interested in your degree status than what skills you can offer a company, that's their loss, are you sure it's a company you want to work for anyway? If you really do want to work for such a company, find out what degree they prefer (call them up and ask them), and go for that one. While you are in school, make sure you seek an internship with your desired employer as well, you cannot beat knowing your potential employer when it comes to finding a job.
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Open mind, insert foot.
get yourself a CCIE... they pay more than any degree by about 6x.
Sir Haxalot
stuff |
You do not go there to trained in something like auto mechanics. All of the degrees you listed will be valued at about the same level. Above that are the hard sciences like physics and mathmatics and some engineering degrees. (Sorry if I piss some people off here).
The other most important aspect of your degree is where you get it. Podunk U. does not carry the same weight as Stanford or MIT.
My degree is in Electrical Engineering from Texas A & M. I've been offered plenty of IT jobs from fellow alumni based on those credentials alone; they knew I could get the job done.
Your degree should be thought of as credentials, not as trade school training. And all of the degrees you mentioned carrry similar weight in credentials.
As that goes, if your just picking one, pick the easiest for you. Good at math? CS. Remember well? MIS. so on.
Pure Computer Science is not about learning programming languages, it is about learning the theory behind information/information systems. If your CS program sells itself as a place to learn a programming language then you should probably look somewhere else. Frankly, once you understand the hows/whys of one programming language then you should be able to learn a new language on your own.
MIS will prove useful in a few years when you are in a management position. However, you'll have to make the leap (if you choose) to that level and you'll have to stand out. I don't know many places that will hire someone right out of university to be a manager. (At least not anywhere that is around for long). I have to agree with the other posters who said that taking an MBA later in your career is probably a better move.
If all you want to do is learn programming skills then a 2 year college program will give you the quickest payoff. If you want to learn how to manage IT systems then MIS is your choice. If you want to learn how information/information systems truly work then go into CS.
Good luck with your choice.
"It's not a CS degree. Most CS people laugh at these people. Sorry but it's true."
Get real, friend. Going to college with bragging rights as a first priority is just silly. If you really want a reason to brag, double major in mathematics and also a foreign language (Russian would be a great choice for a self-righteous masochist since the literature component is so heavy.) On the other hand, a lot of people go to college with aspirations of actually working, in which case it would generally make sense to pursue the course of study which can be completed most quickly, so long as it would still be usable to obtain desired employment.
The state is the great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everybody else. ~F. Bastiat
Those with MIS degrees wound up in Logistics and planning, and those with CS degrees wound up programming for them.
The former are promoted much faster than the latter.
Those of us with degrees in 'OTHER' (myself included) wound up in user/LAN/Network support, where we all are from the "Island of Misfit Toys".....
(watch old Christmas Specials to get the last reference.)
Just a dude. Stuck in IT.
CIS is a small degree for people who want to make money with computers but can't use them for beans. It is the knowledge of a good high school geek.
I am a Senior at New Hampshire Tech. Inst. in Computer Engineering Technology that will transfer into CPE next year and feel what ever you do just don't pick CIS!
Go all out and get your bs in ee. Shoot for the moon!
You'll graduate with an appreciation for the education you got, instead of walking out with complaints like the ones posted on /. If you're just doing it for money, skip all that and get certs like everyone else said.
Look beyond the degree and do it for yourself first. This way no matter what happens after the degree, you won't doubt the value of the time and energy spent.
your ass provides a cushion when you sit on it.
CIS is a business degree. The main focus is on business, but with a partial background on Computers.. You don't want someong running an IT department without computer knowledge (Like the place I just left.. ARGGHH).
The CS degree is a Science degree. Focused on theory of computers.. How to program.. Designing User interfaces, designing OS's.. etc.. This is for a "programmer". This is what Linus Torvalds has a Masters in..
It just depends on what you want, and what kind of job you are interested in..
perfect answer
MIS, CS, or CIS degree is a tough choice, but you can make a wise one now since you've got some experience. If you want to stay as a DB Admin for life, go for CIS and concentrate on networks and databases. If you want to program, go for the CS degree. If you want a degree for the sake of having a degree, go for an MIS degree (The MIS degree isn't held too highly in my book, but it does let you take some business courses). My opinion is to go for the gusto; get a CS degree. If you're really into computers you'll enjoy it when you're done because the information you get out of it is going to give you more appreciation for the computer. It's probably the tougher road, but if you're up to it, it's worth it.
My hat's off to you for wanting to go to college. Pick whichever degree program interests you more. You have to get your degree for you, not for your job or someone else. If you're not interested in the material, you probably won't do well.
I'm a CS grad personally, and I'll tell you that the MIS courses are boring as hell to me, and I'm glad I made this descision, becuase it was the right one for me.
I only hope that our 19/20 year old friend is reading this thread with his "five years of inudstry experience", he should have the smarts to go to college as well.
Good luck to you.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
The reason being CS professors end up telling their CS students to write the most worthless piece of code I can just download via some freeware site. On top of that, using the most inconvenient algorithm, and be tested on it later. MIS just graduates and sees the paycheck first.
....it interferes with learning. If I wasn't taking EE right now, I could be learning something, but instead I have to worry about doing all these stupid projects and labs and assignments. I learn more in 2 hours of tinkering with stuff than I do in a who term at school.
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All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
There are also some other newer degrees then CS, CIS, MIS, etc. My university also offers an Informatics & a New Media degree as well.
Informatics seems to roughly be the organization of information using computers. This comes down to Library & Information sciences within programming, database, & web organization frame.
New Media is more of a multimedia atmosphere. Ours has specializations in game design, 3D modeling, web content (graphic presentation & interaction), & other such related topics.
My university also offers the standard CS [aka CSCI](programming, but mostly theory), Computer Engingeering (hardware, electronics, programming), Computer Technology (hardware, networking, sys administration, security, some programming) (business & technical specialization tracks as well), & of course the Informatics & New Media degrees. Some of these programs even offer an MS in five years (start going for the BS & get an MS with one extra year put in).
Really, there are some great options out there. & many of these various degrees make it easy to rack up math & other minors or even double major with just an extra course or two.
I'll try to keep it short and sweet. Personal background is CS degree doing heavy technical programming. Current gig is running a stable of developers for an accounting firm.
The gang is primarily MIS grads with a couple of CS folks thrown in. The finding so far is that the MIS folks are satisfactory coders (with a strong preference for 4GL tools.. PowerBuilder, Lotus Notes, VB..) and, depending on training, pretty good at PL/SQL. All get good pay and have decent prospects for the future (as coders, or in the client service side of things).
I have come to rely on the CS types to establish policies, procedures, and guidelines as well as bearing the responsibility for designing all of the software.
YMMV with different MIS programs but around here they simply don't have the formal training in software engineering, formal methodologies, algorithm analysis, etc. Basically, left to their own devices, they don't build very good software. (if you think back to the days of 7 levels of correctness, we're talking level 3 here)
So... in this software shop (remember, accounting firm):
CS - get the design work, tend to supervise the MIS grads. Good job security, but limited advancement opportunities unless the number of products grows. Better pay.
MIS - get grunt work, poor job security if they limit themselves to only code work (evil phrases like "dime a dozen" come to mind). Less pay. Generally better opportunities to progress in the "business" side of things.
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Oh yeah, BSCS (not BACS) means 20+ hours of math.
I got a BComH (commerce, that is business, degree) which featured MIS courses such as systems analysis. This includes marketing, finance, accounting, economics, organizational behaviour, operations management, human resources, all those things.
I got a BScH in computing and information science. This includes programming, but it's more than that. Algorithms, data structures, computational complexity, formal languages, formal logic, graphics, numerics, compilers, operating systems, parallel computing, databases, all those things.
There are also software engineering degrees. They should cover more applied things like project planning, testing, estimating, requirements, etc. Just do a keyword search for "SWEBOK" to see what (should) constitute software engineering.
Of course, there are no "real" definitions. It depends on what the institution's program is like.
Personally, I think a dedicated student can really appreciate the CS degree, and fill out the rest of SE through a dedicated post-degree self-study program. There are enough good books out there (e.g. Rapid Development, Managing the Requirements Process, Software Project Management) that this is possible.
I've heard it said that CS grads don't appreciate the final details of real applied software engineering, and aren't taught it. But really, even though it isn't the focus of their education, the good ones pick it up. My experience working with CS and engineering-with-computing-option engineers (some designated) is that it is usually the latter (not the former) who are more hack and slash coders. They often didn't seem to appreciate the complexity of what they were building, maybe because it wasn't wood or steel. I hear that engineers are more responsible with their programs and all that, but really I don't see it.
--
Marc A. Lepage
Software Developer
Penn State has made their own degree, IST. It's in the middle of CIS and CS. I'm a junior and am the first class to be in it (this is it's 3rd year @ PSU).
"At Penn State's School of Information Sciences and Technology (IST), we are dedicated to building leaders for the digital global economy. This thinking permeates every aspect of our academic programs, our outreach, and our research." -- James B. Thomas, Dean
The general perception is that CIS Majors like to portray is that CIS is more gauged towards business minded people.
If that's what business students like to tell themselves to feel better, fine. CIS is a lighter load plain and simple and that's the overriding factor in why people decide to go into CIS. Trust me, employers know this.
Consider this. At Arizona State University for example , the core course of study for a CIS Master's degree is *exactly the same as* a CS Bachelor's degree. Same exact CS classes.
The original poster is correct. The experience on your resume will become far more important than your degree over time, but the CS grad will have an easier time getting that first job than the CIS grad.
To keep it simple:
CS is more involved in theory. MIS is more involved in business. What do you want to do with yourself? My school does not have CIS so I will not talk about it.
Recomendation: If you decide you are more into the theory, then go with CS but take some business on the side because it will help to set you apart from all the other nerds out there.
Our office newbie has an IT degree from a local state school and they taught him Visual Basic and COBOL. This was recently enough that it should be criminal.
If you want a piece of paper and don't really care much for the field, a hiring manager won't know the difference between the (hard) CS degree and the easier CS/IT/MIS degree. They'll figure it's got "Computer" in it so you should be qualified to do anything. So it really is a wash from a job perspective. If you really want to learn about computers, though, CS is where you want to go.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
CE > CS > MIS
All different but from what I've seen (Senior in college && a little bit of work in industry), it seems that the guarenteed minimum although not the maximum falls into the above ordering.
I know MIS people who couldn't code a 'hello world' and I also know MIS people who are pulling down $200,000 and are brilliant coders with more of an interest in the business sides of things.
Your degree speaks mainly of your background not of your potential.
I will readily agree that many CS professors are intelligent but maybe not the best teachers. Don't let that limit what you learn though. The classes that most people tend to do the worst in are the ones where they blame the prof about their failure to learn anything. Take the matter into your own hands and teach yourself or find different teachers.
Also, from what I've seen CS leave school in the $35000-65000 range whereas MIS leave with $28000-45000 and less room for advancement in a development related field due to their typically weaker dev skills.
Allen
Senior in CS
I completed a Degree, and to tell you the truth we covered a hell of a lot -
;-), once you have Polymorphisim, Abstraction and Inhertance sorted Object Based programming in any language will be relatively easy.
The modules I can remember are Systems Software, Discrete Maths, Information Systems, Software Design, Object Oriented Programming, Computer Graphics, Networks & Communication, Systems Analysis and Design, Formal Methods, Advanced Data Structures, Database Design & Implementation, Real Time OS, Real Time Systems Programming, Distributed Systems, Information Systems, Advanced Systems Software & finally the Dissertation. As outside choices there was a bit of physics and a little chemistry.
What did these cover? A hell of a lot, I think the only area I didn't go down was AI, but a quick rundown of what I rememer x86 Assembler, Ada, Prolog, Miranda, MSDos, Modula-2, SSADM, JSP, Entity Realtionship Diagrams, VMS, C++, Ingress, Access, Unix, Z Notation + Formal Methods, COBOL, Logic Gates, DB4, AutoLisp, TCP-IP, OSI 7 Layer, Cabling Standards and the History of Computing.
Yep, a lot was theory, but lets face it, if you understand linked lists and pointer you can probably code them into any language, if you undertand Sequence, Selection and Iteration, well procedural languages will fall under your sword of knowledge
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
Not to be nit-picky or anything, but "a lot" is two words. Just thought I would mention that since we are on the whole "education" trip.
I went through the MIS side of my school's program and I regret it. I originally did it becuase the professors touted all of this talk about how the MIS majors will be the managers of the CS people. I wanted to do some management over software eventually so I took it. But what they don't tell you is that YOU CAN'T GET A JOB. I think at my school the CS majors had a 95% placement (if not higher) and the MIS probably had only 50%, if that. This was this past spring when people were not hiring that much. They had to be picky and they picked people with more technical background.
I know that I was better at programming then half of the CS majors but companies didn't care, they wanted the classes that you have taken. Luckily I had taken my minor in CS so I got some good programming skills and that helped me get my job.
My recommendation is to take a CS major and go for the easier MIS( or even plain old business minor) so that you have some of the business classes.
One of the comments on this story said that majoring in MIS was like "majoring in Word and Excel." It is frightening how close to the truth that is at some schools.
I chose to major in MIS as a compromise between my two main interests: business and computers. My school's MIS curriculum is very business oriented, which should be no surprise. An MIS student takes the same core courses as every business major (Accounting, Finance, Marketing, etc) does, along with the "technical" MIS courses. However, out of 120 credit hours, only 21 are MIS courses, with the rest being business and general education courses. The MIS courses use Microsoft software extensively and exclusively. Databases are taught using Access and programming is taught with Visual Basic. The intro class uses Excel and PowerPoint. I feel like I am attending a trade school, not a university. The scary thing is, the other students like it that way, and would really prefer more "hands-on experience" with "industry standard software" and even certification (like MCSE) offered through the university.
I figured that I would gain enough business knowledge and technical know-how to either start my own business, or get a management position at a tech company. What I am doing is wasting my time. I spent three consecutive semesters not taking a single technical course. I would have been much better off majoring in CS and taking the useful business classes as electives. I decided to take a CS minor, which consists of the most basic programming, design, and logic courses with two electives. This provides me with some technical knowledge and a way to study my interests, but I may just stay an extra year to get the degree in CS.
The bottom line: MIS is nothing but another business major. Lots of people that graduate from here (Kansas State) with MIS degrees end up doing jobs like support or grunt work for Sprint. Any of us could do this without degrees, so what is the point? Then again, a lot of them get decent jobs. MIS students are often students that cannot complete the work that is demanded of a CS student. The MIS degree offers them an "easy" way out so that they can get a big career with a big salary. They soon find that they get neither. MIS students can "use", but often cannot "build", which is the biggest difference between MIS and CS. Employers want employees that can think, solve problems, and create solutions. I'm not saying that someone with an MIS degree can't do that, there are many that can. Some of the smartest people I have ever known are either MIS students or faculty. But, most of the people with these qualities are CS majors.
It gives you a limitless selection of jobs in the technology industry along with every other industry. Comp E's are selected before CS, CIS, MSCS, and any other wannabe computer degree when it comes to getting a job.
~ now you know
For writing compilers, OS's, and major applications, you should get a CS degree. It's heavy on mathematics and fundamental principles. A few places also offer "Software Engineering", which seems to be CS with a less math and more large-project management. IF you can handle the math, I'd suggest you take the CS and learn project management later on -- I rather suspect that you'll learn more about that by reading The Mythical Man-month than in any college class anyhow.
But remember, this is the small end of the programming job market. You'd better be damned good if you want those jobs. But if you are good enough, I expect you get a lot of job satisfaction, and a chance at bodacious stock options.
I think the big three in employing programmers are databases, embedded programming, and web design. A lot of would-be programmers also end up as system administrators and tech support -- sometimes combined with coding databases and web pages... CS gives you much of the fundamentals for each of those jobs, but there are easier programs that are more directly oriented towards them.
Business databases have required by far the most programmer man-hours over the last 50 years. CS will give you the mathematics behind the database designs; MIS/CIS should give you more of the practice, more grounding on how to deal with the non-technical managers that are your customers, and maybe some background in system administration, because if you work for a medium sized corporation you will be expected to code the databases in between fixing network & server problems.
Embedded programming: This includes everything from washing machines and microwaves to Tivos and game consoles. 95% of the programs are really simple, but there are so many of them that this may include more than 50% of all coding manhours. However, most of them show up in job surveys as engineers rather than "programmers" -- the typical career path is to get an Electrical Engineering degree, design some hardware, then learn to program it. Some real training in programming (CS) would certainly help here, but you've also got to comprehend the hardware.
Web page design: Are there any college majors that are really effective at teaching this? It takes a little artistic talent, a lot of ergonomics engineering, and a tiny bit of coding. Maybe Industrial Engineering would be a better major, it covers ergonomics and artistry. Just don't let them brainwash you into thinking that _looking_ good is better than giving the users the info they are looking for without waiting for large graphics to download and then hunting around. The good news: if you rate a C overall for your web design ability, you're far above the average... At most places, you'll also be expected to keep the server running, so whatever training you can get in that will be useful too.
If you already have the coding skills go for the business degree. I've been in the industry for 22 years and its very easy to teach someone to code in C, C++, Java, etc., but its not easy to learn the business end of things. This is even the case for the programmer vs. the manager. I expect all of my staff (coders) to understand the industry we work in...they should already know how to code. Remember...your can learn anything in "21 Days".
A couple years down the road, I don't think it matters much. My degree is in philosophy, but that hasn't hurt me. I just hired someone with a degree in music -- I never considered anyone without a bachelors degree.
One guy with some tech institute certificate tried to spin it as "equivalent of an associates degree." Didn't work.
What's a sig?
It's your choice. As many of the replies have pointed out you can get a job with any of the degrees, of course getting a job may be easier with a CE/CS than with a CIS/MIS degree.
...).
My feeling and experience (13+ years w/ a CS degree) is that you just need to get you foot in the door. If you do and you are a stellar programmer/developer/analyst then you can make your own future (please don't picture Chevy Chase telling a young caddie to make hist future
I feel that with a CE/CS degree, you have more options (i.e. more doors to get that foot in). I have been a hiring manager a couple of times in my career. I never really considered hiring MIS degrees. I wanted a technologist. One who could design and build complex systems. A person who has good communication skills, can work with a team is somewhat self motivated (especially by technology).
In my experience, mainly in banking/finance in wall street firms, is that in technolgy deptartemts, they want sharp experienced technologists, the business knowledge is secondary and will be learned on the job. A sound technology background in much more desirable.
As far as money, your potential dictates what you can make, the degree just dictates at what point you start on the pay scale.
My suggestion is to get the CE/CS degree. Yes they are more demanding, but will be more rewarding in the long rung. I mean this from an educational experience. If you consider an MIS degree, I can guarantee you that you've probably gained more technoligical skills and business skill in your 4 years of IT experience that you ever would in the MIS dept.
I have a BSCS from Ohio State, 1986. That and $2.50 will get you a 'cafe american' at S'bucks. It's the experience that gets me a job interview.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
I have been working in the CS field since I was 17 (18 years ago). Getting a degree when starting out would only have helped me then. Now a degree would not raise my salary or get me a better job. I think the original poster if he does not have the business contacts to find/change jobs as desired would be better server by going to school part time and continue working. I went to school part time (and later stopper before getting a degree) and found that most of the instructors had lost touch with reality. Heck some of them had never even worked outside of an academic environment. So I would warn everyone going to college to take that into consideration, if you can find out what & when your instructors did in a real corporation stick to the ones that actually succeeded and have worked recently. Working at a failed company is not horrible either they may have some insights into what went wrong. You can learn the "programming" skills on your own easily. Try to learn the business side if you are going to go to school.
A MCSE is to computing as what a MacDonald's Food Specialist is to fine cuisine.
;-0
MIS is for the CS students who can't hack it.
And if you're primary concern is being the most marketable, you'll most likely want to look into an MBA after finishing up the bachelor's degree.
A strong liberal arts undergrad will prove to the employer that you are a "jack of all trades" and the graduate degree will show that "you can master at least one of them"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
If you are interested in government work, then there is an important difference.
With a CS degree, you typically take the Calculus sequence (I, II, and III). This qualifies you to work in a GS-1550 slot, called Computer Scientist.
The CIS and MIS degrees typically have Business Calculus, and you do NOT take the sequence.
Without the extra math, you are only qualified for a GS-0334, Computer Specialist.
The Computer Scientist generally is put in a slot that terminates at GS-12 or GS-13. Computer Specialists slots often terminate at GS-09 or GS-11.
That can mean a pay difference between $34,451 and $59,409.
~t
"You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
If it is recession times like now, then employers will be very picky about degree type, especially with less than five years of experience. During booms, if you can spell XML, your hired! :-)
I want to know what every bit and electron does in a computer. A MIS would bore me silly. You get far deeper into computers with a CS degree. Most employers dont care, except for computer developers.
Get a Computer Science Batchelors (BSc) and then follow up with an Master in Business Administration (MBA). Proves you are a techhead with a serious side, which provides a managerial route once you've got too old to be a techie anymore (somewhere between 30 and 45, depending on who you speak to)
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
A wise man once said:
"Computer Scientists are just Electrical Engineers who can't do calculus and MIS majors are just Computer Scientists who can't code"
My thought has been, anything you can do with a MIS degree, you can do better with a CS degree.
I have a CIS degree and I am happy with it but I don't think you'll find employer's are going to care much which degree you have so long as you have one. My degree is from DeVry, Ohio.
Excuse me, where is "alot" or even "a lot" in my post?
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
With an engineering degree you can get any job a BSCS (or whatever) can get.
An engineering degree is *much* more prestigous than a BSCS. Often, a BSCS doesn't count for anything - may as well just have high school.
A BSCS is just as difficult and expensive as engineering, but not nearly as valuable.
JMHO - based on 22 years experience in IT.
I'd like to echo what most people are saying about MIS being more business oriented and CIS more programming/theory oriented. But one important difference I have experienced personally as a recent (Dec. '01) graduate with an MIS degree is how employers look at you. On more than one occasion recruiters have said that a CIS degree will earn more than a MIS degree. Sometimes the difference can be significant, a NSA recruiter told me that if I had a CIS degree I would start out $10k a year higher than with a MIS degree.
Happiness is like peeing yourself, only you can feel the warmth.
IT, MIS, and its ilk...very dangerous ground, often mocked by Computer Scientists/Engineers...frankly, it depends on the school, but these are often degrees for people who can't handle Computer Science/Engineering, or for people who would rather learn how to use software than to really use computers (sorry, but its true). You'll spend more time dealing with Powerpoint presentations or Visual Basic programming in Microsoft Excel than you will actually learning how to code or about operating systems/computers.
I'd recommend Computer Engineering if circuits and all that other low-level hardware related stuff doesn't drive you crazy (as it does me). Otherwise, I'd say go Computer Science. The rest are a waste of time if you really want to be hardcore in the field of computers. Then again, if you want a bunch of easy courses and a nice cushy web programmer job after college, go IT/MIS/etc. Just don't expect to be chosen over Comp Scis/Comp Engs for a real technical job opening.
Magius_AR
I just have a few comments to add to this thread. I graduated from Texas A&M and according to Association of Former Students more than 50% of graduates are working in fields not related to the degree they earned.
To me, a BS degree means that you :
have the ability to learn
can complete a long term task/goal (graduation)
I also wanted to point out that some of my favorite classes had nothing to do with CS.
Chris
This request does nothing to screen out applicants. Of course, it's written rather generally because it is the work of a recruiter, but these sorts of postings are not uncommon anywhere.
In my experience as a mentor, degrees have meant very little. There are a number of universities that are in the business of giving masters' degrees to foreign students so that they can then get H1-B visas. I can't find anything in these degrees in particular that has indicated programming talent. But even more than that, I've often found degree holders to be lost causes when it comes to learning. If they have a degree in software engineering, for example, they tend to believe that they already know how to do it. That is, even if they haven't actually been on a real-life software project yet.
The other thing that they ask for is experience. Experience is fine, but it is also not an indicator of talent. If I've been working in the industry for five years, then I have five years of experience, plain and simple. If I'm a superprogrammer with one year of experience, then I have one year of experience.
As much as it probably pisses people off, one of the best indicators is the psychometrics of problem-solving ability. If you're good at reading comprehension, analytical thinking, problem solving, memory, you're likely to be good at programming. Furthermore, if you have insatiable curiosity for languages, systems, environments, and problem domains, you're likely to continue being talented and increase in skill.
If you think you fit into the above stereotype, try wowing a potential employer with an interesting discussion of what one should actually look for in a programmer. If you like, for $1500 (minus whatever your health insurance pays for) you can get a neuropsychological exam. This is much cheaper than a semester at university, and you might be able to use it to your advantage.
If, however, this exam shows that you're not very good at the basic talents/aptitudes required for programming, you might then consider going to school for a job that suits you better. Otherwise, you'll probably become one of those bitter old programmers no-one likes. -- (MP)
I have been in the IT field for more than 15 years with nothing more than hands-on experience and a high school education. I use to have recruiters begging me to go on interviews, offering me more than my salary at the time to take one position or another. Nobody ever once had an issue with my education, they paid more attention to my experience.
And then the economy went sour, and everybody and their neighbor's dog got their MCSE's, CCNA's, etc. from some fast-track cert class. Retain the info just long enough to spit it out on the exam. Now, when I really do need to change jobs, nobody wants me because I don't have that magical degree that supposedly makes you so much better than someone with nearly 2 decades of real-world experience. I've seen jobs posted on Monster.com, Dice.com, etc. for Help Desk positions requiring a bachelor's in CS! What's wrong with this picture?
I asked a recruiter guy about the sudden requirement for degreed techs, his answer: When you have 300 or so resumes for one position, you can eliminate 80-90% just by removing the ones without degrees. It's not that the position requires it, or even that the employer requires it, it's simply a method of elimination used by the headhunters. They don't have to actually read the resumes or think too hard about your skillset, just plug in the parameters and see who matches.
Of course, when the economy gets back on track and all those college kids have jobs, this won't be an issue anymore.
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
Unless you want the "engineering" or hard science class of degrees _and_ want to do theoretical work on (in this subject) algorithms and the like, ...
... without quitting.
The degree itself is like a past job you weren't fired from; it shows you can perform at that level. The subject is like the experience you got while at that job, potentially useful and relevant to a future employer but not essential.
Therefore, get a degree subject that you think you can cope with three/four years sitting in boring rooms listening to turgid waffle by some of the worst instructors out there
Make sure it's one you think you'll remember enough about for three years after graduation to answer questions. For a short while, it will be your most recent experience and therefore an interview topic.
I've always wondered if this would be a better way to pick a major...
Sit down with a major and pick a bunch of different courses that the major requires and are electives. Map out your whole 6 years (sometimes that's not a joke)
Then do that with a couple of other majors that are related. In your case MIS, CIS, CS. Then see which path looks more interesting. How does that semester with Computer Engineering 402, Theory of Computers 483, Writing Million Word Programs 415, & Bowling sound?
Spend a couple weeks with this so you can hash and rehash the possible schedules & classes. IOW, don't rush it.
Then when you find the most interesting one, or the one you keep coming back to w/o realizing it, you've found your major.
managers...why god invented purgatory
First, CS/EE is much harder and more rigorous than MIS/CIS/Business. You want proof? Take out your calculus book or some crypto book or even a algorithm design and analysis book and show it to one of the CIS/MIS students. Watch as they stare at it dumbfounded asking you if it's really written in english. Then ask them to show you the book from their hardest class (ten bucks says is statistics), then scoff as you explain to them how it all works using calculus instead of the dumb-downed methods covered in their book.
Second, MIS/CIS grads will not be my boss. Why? Because I took the time to learn social skills on top of my formal education. Yes, social skills must be learned. Usually at a young age, but it's never too late. That means you have to get off IRC or put down the controller for your Ps2 and go outside. I know it's bright out there, but trust me, you'll get use to it. There's a world of things to do out there, literally. Start off slow, maybe visit a local bar or something, but damn it we were not meant to sit inside all day and exist solely in a virtual world because we fear the rejection the real world might dish us. Oh, and for all you elitists out there who think you're just too damn elite to socialize with the rest of us: elitism is just another work for social ineptitude. You can't socialize so you create the notion in your head that you're just better than everyone else so you have an excuse not to socialize.
Now, that I'm really fired up, let me explain why I'm so damn pissed. I'm tired of people thinking they can shit on me because of some social stigma created god knows when that technically minded people are inferior and can be ridiculed.
Think about it...
That's crab, I am saying you're better off picking up an extra book for $20 and put that new language on your resume. Trust me, you'll come the same $$ as that CS major who wasted all their time programming circular linked-lists in C++ only to find out perl does it 40 times better in 3 lines as recommended by a MIS major down the hallway. 8)
;)
If you think writing circular linked-lists is important in your major, you're in for a huge disappointment later. Advancements goes to those great with politics as with most companies... you are just employee number XXXX after the first couple months anyways.
I think we can all, for the most part, agree on what the Computer Science and Computer Engineering degrees are.
However, Information Systems and Management Information Systems degrees are a fairly new and broad-based concept. They encompass many different areas of computing/technology like networking, database systems, biomedical informatics, multimedia communications, artificial intelligence, expert systems, and/or knowledge-based systems, and how they are applied, used, and designed in a business environment. So, unlike the CS and CE degrees, your focus is less on general technical principles in a generic environment, and more on the applying of the topic that you wish to pursue in a business environment.
That said, there is a article that was posted several days ago on osOpinion entitled "The Dissing of IT Workers" that does a fairly good job of pointing out the differences between a CS degree and an IT degree.
As an engineering manager I will NOT hire a person who has a single cert on their resume:
Those who can, do, Those that can't, teach. Those who can't teach, get cert'ed.
I don't mean to be overly crass, but I want to see some one with a degree (any degree). Honors or the like is great. If I had to choose I'll take some one from a "hard" field such as math physics, EE, chem, or even poly-sci as long as their program was rigorous. Any disciplined person with a good mind can pick-up programming. The cert just shows to me that that person has doubt about their abilities. Walk in, look me in the eye and tell me, y"es I CAN write that kernel in 4 months." Also, show me the work that you have done and that you can read, write and speak well. This last point is very important. If you can't communicate you are of far less value to a team and that is why a good liberal education is so very important. -s
At my school MIS is more practical if you want to be able to work in general IT/Business type stuff. CS gives you more math, theory, and programming, and all of the CS people laugh at the MIS guys. I think CS is better for programming/developing/engineering side of IT. Also if you are thinking about continuing on to graduate school at all some of the upper level CS courses are great preparation for the master courses. I am also taking a minor in business so I get the practical stuff, just in case, without being a cheesy MIS major. If you don't like business a lot of the MIS stuff will be boring compared to the CS, and make sure you talk to the professors and skip as much of the lower division CS as you can if since you have 4 years experience.
Than probably the right degree for you is CIS. Basically CIS usually takes on the business side of Computer Science. Their exists some sort of spectrum.
:::: CIS :::: CSCI :::: CE
MIS
Really MIS is little technical, but enough to allow you to get accreddited to be a DBA or a low level programmer or help desk. CSCI gives you enough of a Science (physics) background as well as different stuff like compiler theory to do pretty much anything. Then CIS rests somewhere in between. CIS enables you to become just as good of a 'coder' as a CSCI major by taken all the same lower and upper division programming classes. Basically you take all of the same classes as someone from CSCI with the exception of a few that you don't choose as additional electives. One great thing about CIS, you are not required to take physics so you might breeze through the major faster, but you might be required to get a business minor.
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
My first year of CS classes was actually at WMU... I would have to agree at least with my two semester of experice there with what you said. IIRC, I had Prof. Boales or something like that for lecture and two TAs from India that I couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about. The class was taught in C++ and the instructors were horrorible, almost everyone cheated of the few people that actually wanted to understand the subject (myself in the latter group.) I remember having to do almost the entire group projects because no one else cared/could.
I agree with your explanation of MIS. But the term Computer "Science" has been my pet peeve. Science means Physics, Chemistry, Earth science, Biology etc. Science is a field that seeks to better understand the workings of the nature. But when we deal with computer, everything is man-made. That's why I think "Computer Science" is a misnomer. I think Universities should stop using the term "Computer Science" since it degrades the term "science." "Software Engineering", "Applied Computation methods", "Software Art", etc will do.
Download Mazes and Puzzles from www.puz.com
I got hired with 6 months professional, but non- related, experience and no degree. It's a paradigm that has always existed and will continue to exist, but probably won't be the mainstream model. The key is in your abilities to market yourself. I was able to show that I had the current knowledge and capabilities needed at their organization and the capacity and interest to extend my abilities. I started off as a technical support analyst which only required a highschool diploma and no work experience. I got promoted twice within that year, applying for higher positions as I became eligible. However, having no degree was a hindrance since the two other positions I got promoted to required degrees and experience, none of which I official and legally could state. However, I did have projects that I worked on that showed that I did have the skills and work ethics needed. Furthermore, I weaseled my way onto projects the institution was originally planning to outsource. By doing so I was able to save them a good hunk of change since they were paying me ~$13.50/hr vs ~$40+/hr for a contractor. It also validated my summer work experiences, which the employers I've interviewed with don't count as *professional* work experience due to the non-continuous and temporary nature. Hiring requirements can and will be waived if the company realizes your current and potentional viability for the organization. However, there are still plenty of companies that won't even consider a candidate that does not have a degree. If a company isn't flexible in it's hiring practices, I doubt it's going to be flexible in a changing economy. Even if I had a degree I wouldn't seek a job with such a company unless it was my only choice. And then, if such a company did hire me, I would look to jump ship as early as possible. You never know when the economy will turn sour, and at such organizations you're more likely to be layed off by middle managers trying to save there jobs rather than the company. Before I continue, I want to stress that college is important and so is getting a degree. I'm envious of those that have obtained there diploma. However, using a degree as a measure of knowledge is a folly many people commit. I've forgotten most of my advanced math over with a period of 2 years simply due to lack of use. I can't even remember how due a simply integral which I learned in highschool and I completed linear algebra my freshman year in college. Personally, I don't think my employer really cares if I still know how to calculate the Wronskian value of a matrix since it has nothing to due with developing enterprise applications using higher level programming languages. Nor would they care that I've never touched a single code fragment of assembly. What my employers currently want and need is someone who can translate end user experience and implement business practices into a model that can be built with using currently available technologies. They need someone with skills in current technologies, and someone who will be able to learn and adapt as new technologies become available. In conclusion, the *smart* employer will evaluate you on based your current skill set and your future viability. The most simplistic but crude method of such an evaluation is reviewing work experience and credentials via a resume. Work experience measures current knowledge while credentials measure past knowledge. Both measure potential learning capabilities. However, for the bulk of the resumes I've reviewed, ironically I was involved with interviewing prospective employees, the work experience rarely exhibits learning potential, though this is the most important place to emphasize your learning abilities. In such cases the degree does become important. It's a fail safe for those who aren't given opportunities to extend themselves at work. Even in a down economy, people without degrees will be hired. What changes is that employers will scrutinize prospective employees a lot harder since they won't be worried that the candidates will be snatched up leaving them with no candidates.
My degree was in computer science and engineering (CSE). My school (University of Connecticut) originally only had CSE and MIS, but now in fact has CS (CompSci), CE (CompEngineering), CSE, and MIS.
UConn's idea was that CS is more theory, CompE is more application of theory, and CSE straddles the line, but in fact it seems that with the new majors, CompE is more targeted at hardware development and CS seems to be CSE for people who can't/don't want the more advanced math/science requirements, and the extra 14 credits required of an engineering degree.
Its my perception that MIS degree might as well mean Microsoft Information Systems in a lots of places.. hmm how do I administer an NT domain? or write Cobol.. a much softer program w/ no advanced math.. a place for failure CSE students to land.
that's just my $.02, figured I would throw out some more degree acronyms.
Did you know that circular references are not properly cleaned up by Perl's garbage collector? I doubt you accounted for that in your brilliant 3-line solution.
Looks like MIS Major Down the Hallway's recommendation will cause you to leak memory. Then again that's the kind of solution you'd expect from someone whose idea of education is copy-pasting his way through college using example code from a $20 book.
Please excuse the noob error I made with my orginal post. Feel free to flame if you must. I've donned on my abestos skivies.
I got hired with 6 months professional, but non- related, experience and no degree. It's a paradigm that has always existed and will continue to exist, but probably won't be the mainstream model. The key is in your abilities to market yourself. I was able to show that I had the current knowledge and capabilities needed at their organization and the capacity and interest to extend my abilities.
I started off as a technical support analyst which only required a highschool diploma and no work experience. I got promoted twice within that year, applying for higher positions as I became eligible. However, having no degree was a hindrance since the two other positions I got promoted to required degrees and experience, none of which I official and legally could state.
However, I did have projects that I worked on that showed that I did have the skills and work ethics needed. Furthermore, I weaseled my way onto projects the institution was originally planning to outsource. By doing so I was able to save them a good hunk of change since they were paying me ~$13.50/hr vs ~$40+/hr for a contractor. It also validated my summer work experiences, which the employers I've interviewed with don't count as *professional* work experience due to the non-continuous and temporary nature.
Hiring requirements can and will be waived if the company realizes your current and potentional viability for the organization. However, there are still plenty of companies that won't even consider a candidate that does not have a degree. If a company isn't flexible in it's hiring practices, I doubt it's going to be flexible in a changing economy. Even if I had a degree I wouldn't seek a job with such a company unless it was my only choice. And then, if such a company did hire me, I would look to jump ship as early as possible. You never know when the economy will turn sour, and at such organizations you're more likely to be layed off by middle managers trying to save there jobs rather than the company.
Before I continue, I want to stress that college is important and so is getting a degree. I'm envious of those that have obtained there diploma. However, using a degree as a measure of knowledge is a folly many people commit. I've forgotten most of my advanced math over with a period of 2 years simply due to lack of use. I can't even remember how due a simply integral which I learned in highschool and I completed linear algebra my freshman year in college.
Personally, I don't think my employer really cares if I still know how to calculate the Wronskian value of a matrix since it has nothing to due with developing enterprise applications using higher level programming languages. Nor would they care that I've never touched a single code fragment of assembly.
What my employers currently want and need is someone who can translate end user experience and implement business practices into a model that can be built with using currently available technologies. They need someone with skills in current technologies, and someone who will be able to learn and adapt as new technologies become available.
In conclusion, the *smart* employer will evaluate you on based your current skill set and your future viability. The most simplistic but crude method of such an evaluation is reviewing work experience and credentials via a resume. Work experience measures current knowledge while credentials measure past knowledge. Both measure potential learning capabilities. However, for the bulk of the resumes I've reviewed, ironically I was involved with interviewing prospective employees, the work experience rarely exhibits learning potential, though this is the most important place to emphasize your learning abilities. In such cases the degree does become important. It's a fail safe for those who aren't given opportunities to extend themselves at work. Even in a down economy, people without degrees will be hired. What changes is that employers will scrutinize prospective employees a lot harder since they won't be worried that the candidates will be snatched up leaving them with no candidates.
Would that be the same "five years of experience" the guy from the last thread had?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Here is my two cents to throw into the mix:
In college I majored in EE with a concentration in Computer Engineering. Although I knew I wanted a career doing computer science/programming, I decided NOT to major in straight CS. I had been programming since a fairly young age, and so by the end of high school, I considered myself to be a fairly knowledgable programmer (whether or not that was true is a subject for debate, but it is hard to convince an 18 year old the error of his ways!). I figured that by majoring in EE/CE I would be broadening my horizons because the main focus of this major is computer hardware design. I figured that learning the hardware of a computer system would best compliment the knowledge I already.
During my undergraduate program, I ended up taking the usual array of engineering core courses, EE courses, and the like. I also took a number of CS courses as technical electives. Although the lower level CS courses (intro and sophomore level courses) were somewhat of a waste, the ones I took beyond that were very helpful. In the end, I realized that there WAS a lot about programming that I needed to learn, and I ended up completing a Masters in CS after my BSEE.
Getting back to the original question, personally I thought that doing the BSEE and MSCS was the best choice FOR ME. Because my interests lie in programming and technical things, this course of study was definitely the way to go. Also, although I like to think that I could be a good technical manager, the fact is that I really don't have any interest in being one.
As far as the other degrees go (MIS, CIS), I don't have personally experience with these. From what I can gather, the MIS degree is focused a lot more on technical project management and business-related computer applications. The content is a lot less technical than what you'd find in a CS degree. I'm not saying that that's bad or anything; it's just different. In general, the feeling that I get is that because the MIS degree is less "hardcore", it is easier. For a pure technical position, a CS degree is probably a better preparation. For a project management type position, a MIS degree is probably a better preparation.
However, let me just say that in my opinion it is a LOT easier to take a CS person and turn them into a manager than it is to take an MIS person and turn them into a technical contributor. You can teach management skills on the job through experience and mentoring, but it is much harder to teach technical skills on the job unless the individual already has a good technical foundation.
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www.moneybythenumbers.com
OK, I am a person who has no degree. I have been in the IT field for 8 years and have had great jobs. Only because I have found people willing to take the chance on me. What if I lost my job now? I'd be screwed. So having that piece of paper is a piece of mind. It's reality and I'm sad to say I'm one of the exceptions to the rule.
I love the guy who said it was to enforce the class system. This is a person who is afraid of work. These are the type of people that give those of us without degrees a bad name.
How long ago were you first hired?
I can't get hired at low skill jobs (i.e. lugging boxes) without experience; I can't imagine being hired as a programmer or sysadmin.
Modded by someone with an IT degree.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Any degree will do. It doesn't matter what field the degree is actually in, although a science degree (something that involves math and the ability to write a semi-coherent sentence) generally carries more weight than a non-science degree. Assuming, of course, that the person who's doing the decision-making isn't a B.A. with a chip on his/her shoulders about all the smarter B.S.'s and their ability to add larger than double-digit sums without the aid of a calculator.
Most schools don't really teach the tools needed to actually work in the field you have a degree in. If you think you can graduate from school with a bachelor's in computer science and be good to go right off the bat, wait awhile until I stop laughing my ass off. Fact is, you're almost as useless as the Psych major who also applied for the job, but at least with the Psych major we might actually hire someone who can relate to people in a basically human fashion.
Y'see, just about all of these bachelors degrees, no matter what the field, are completely irrelevant. They don't train you for a job; in fact, 90% of what you learn - at least - will be utterly useless in the real world. What the degree does say is that you're enough of a peon to put up with four years of unpleasant bullshit, so much so that you're gullible enough to actually PAY for the privilege, just to get the chance to work for us. And that's what we want: peons who'll put up with shit and keep on trucking. We love the Borg drones and wish you were just like them.
No mavericks for us, thank you very much. Mavericks tell us to 'fuck off' when they don't like how we treat them and that just ain't acceptable.
As for how one gains the actual skills required to do the job:
- hire on with a company that knows you're a fool just out of college, and therefore just about skilled enough to defrag Windows boxes. They'll teach you what you really need to know, after torturing you for a couple of years first (low guy on the totem pole, etc.)
- apprentice to a known wizard. Sometimes a wizard (i.e., a good programmer) will take on an apprentice and teach them what they know. Especially if the apprentice can really suck cock, er, will give the job his all. This is hard to do unless you're good friends with a wizard because wizards are often antisocial types with little desire to teach anyone anything. In 18 years I've taken on three apprentices and told everyone else to rot in hell. That's three more apprentice than any of the other wizards I count as friends.
- if you have raw talent, do what 95% of the programming community does. Jump in, sink or swim. Teach yourself. It's much easier nowadays because you can get on the net, ask a question, and get two dozen different but right solutions to your problem, so there's no excuse for not trying it this way. If you can't learn via reading and asking questions then you're fucked - you have no talent, get an MCSE and go work for Microsoft or someone else too stupid to realize that you'r a loser when it comes to computers. But really, if you can't teach yourself then stop wasting your time and choose a career that you're actually decent at.
The upshot is that you won't learn any useful skills in college when it comes to actual real-world experience. And we know that - we plan for that. What college tells us is that if you're dumb enough to put up with crap for four years and pay for it, that you'll bend over and let us ream you up the ass if the paycheck is coming your way. That's what we want first and foremost. It'd be nice to do that you can do math and write a complete sentence, so a science degree is good, but you can get it in any science and we don't care what it is. A CS major is no more qualified to program than a Microbiology major is. Trust me on this.
So pick a science that you like. During the summer intern with a place that'll actually let you near a working machine. *That's* where you'll get real skills. In addition read everything you can, put together your own home network, hack the Linux kernel (even if you don't use Linux it'll teach you a hell of alot about programming), etc.; get experience any way you can. During the interview we'll ask you questions that you won't be able to bullshit without practical experience.
If you can, befriend a wizard and have him help you with the arcane arts. Having your own personal wizard at your beck and call is the biggest advantage you can get. Especially - especially - if the wizard will vouch for you as a reference. You have no idea how important this is; it carries far more weight than any degree. After all, anyone can get a degree but very few folks can get a wizard to say something nice.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Being a current CS student here at Texas A&M, the inside joke about MIS as a major is it's basically Computer Science Lite. From what I hear from people in the MIS program at our school, everything they learn is knowledge that I have had since about the 5th grade (I'm currently in my 2nd year here at A&M). For example, the MIS students here use Frontpage to do their HTML in their Web Enabled Applications class.
Where I go to school, there is no CS only CIS which is a combination of the two (CS/MIS). We are required to minor in business (with 18hrs of business/accounting courses) and something like 70hrs of straight CS stuff, along with discrete, and finite maths and calc. So I like this kind of well roundedness (based on what I'm reading here)...I may absolutely hate the accounting courses, but I can understand ammortization and cost accounting with the best of em. I just prefer to set my own hours and hack away at my desk because it's something I love. The simple fact that you stuck with something long enough to achieve a degree (regardless of what it is) tends to impress most people. JM2C
The english language is in beta. It's evolving but has not yet reached a level of usability.