Slashdot Mirror
PetsWarehouse vs. Mailing List
klaun writes "Salon is running a story about a federal suit against members of an Internet mailing list. Seems a company got a bad review on the list and the owner sued the person that said it and everyone who agreed. But the case grew bigger from there, including a suit against the legal defense fund set up to support members of the list being sued and anyone who linked to the defense fund. The ultimate rub of it all is that it basically worked. Most of the defendants have settled." This is a truly bizarre story.
so, if i have this right, a company sued people that didnt like them. imagine what would happen to slashdot readers if microsoft decided to do that.
Guns are like umbrellas and condoms. Better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.
... now they have to make money using their legal departments?
someday they'll hafta make profit the old fashioned way... sell a good/service that ppl want at a decent price...
It'll prolly get /.'d, but here it is- http://216.168.47.67/psw/Default.html
As an admin of another (unrelated) aquarium board, I find the trend disturbing, especially after some of the flamewars I've seen bashing suppliers on our and other boards.
New York has an anti-SLAPP statute. I wonder why this was not used to kick out the case.
Some of these fights have to be taken and some of these SLAPPERs have to be hit with large enough damages to make others think long and hard before bringing another SLAPP action.
Fight Spammers!
You have the right to a day in court, but unfortunately, too many nowadays want to just cough up some cash and make the problem go away, rather than fighting. It's really a shame.
Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!
I read from the printer friendly version, no ads and stuff...
But anyway, this is simply unbelievable. The idea that if someone says something bad about their own experiences can somehow justify suing them for 15 million dollars. And then to sue a defense fund! WTF is going through people's mind?
Instead of wasting their time with such frivalous legal actions, they should perhaps try to improve their aquatic plants division.
But I guess trying to serve customers is a harder way to get money than just sueing people.
--
Some weasel took the cork out of my lunch.
I think Microsoft is going to sue all of us who say there software is poor. But wait! We can sue them back for saying *nix/open source sux. Oh how emotionally distressed I am, I deserve someone elses money because they exhibited their right to free speech. Sorrow!
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I hate to stir up more trouble, but it is my opinion that PetsWarehouse are a bunch of child molesting, cocaine distributing, AIDS-infected Satanists who routinely butcher small puppies and kittens in worship of the Dark Lord. Robert Novak is best friends with Gary Condit and he helped pull out Chandra Levy's teeth with a pair of pliers.
You are welcome to post your agreement below.
Does that mean Novak will sue Salon? And then slashdot for linking to Salon?
[o]_O
At least the subject of everything was a business and could therefore *possibly* have monetary loss over all of it.
I run a forum. Thus far, I've been fortunate in that nobody's actually gone through with a lawsuit threat. "Waah! Somebody said I was wrong! I'm gonna sue!" Everybody's first line of defense is a threat like that, especially if they're unable to come up with any sort of decent reply.
Now, if the guy's posts to this list in response actually got blocked, I do feel for him a bit. What was the moderator thinking? If you're going to run something like that, you have to learn to be impartial with your kewl powerz, or pretty soon all the decent people will flee, and rightly so.
Whether it warranted a lawsuit? I dunno.
The moral of the story here is that giving up on what you believe in gets you nowhere. If you cave in to corporate pressure, you will lose your money, your good name, and your credit rating when you settle out of court. If you stand up for your rights when you know you're correct, justice will prevail and you will know you've made a difference for netizens everywhere. What would you rather be - a victorious hero or an unprincipled loser? Don't answer here - save your response for the judge.
This post is libelous against my company. I will be seeing you in court. Anyone else want to try??
It's conceivable that someone outside the US could register petswarehousesucks.com at someplace like godaddy.com for 8.95 and run a site from there. Last time I checked WHOIS, it was available. The (very) first amendment point of this post is...... Could the US legal system be able to reach that far should some people outside the U.S. get it in their heads to continue a campaign against this company?
I've seen this argument from Pets Warehouse on various mailing lists when I kept salt water fish.
His own actions have caused him more problems than one customer complaint.
Wow. So if someone thinks my business sucks and they tell people about it I can get rich. Kick ass.
What I found exceptional about this article is that the guy from Pets Warehouse was representing himself. His costs out of pocket were court fees. It doesn't appear that he paid anyone to serve most of the summons'.
The most striking question I have is why didn't everyone who was sued band together? I see the reference to the defense fund, but no mention of targeting the suit's validity in front of a court. Wouldn't that be the first step?
Between this and "recollecting" memories of being abused by priests, one could make a nice living.
"I've been an attorney for over 20 years, and I have rarely seen anything that's as frivolous as this is," says John Benn, a lawyer and aquarist in Sheffield, Ala.,..."
Can't take the pressure...must...get...out...
*kaboom*
...............
Sent from your iPad.
Hey Novak... come sue me! Its the little people like you that evolution should have gotten rid of long ago. Trying to silence people's opinions about how much your company sucks is going against the ideals of our country. USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! USA Forever!
Come shut me up! Don't buy for petSWEARhouse cause if you do you'll be sure to swear! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Something really stinks about this story, and it's not the fish. I suspect some sort of coercion on the part of the claimant (Novak) or his representatives (Attorneys) to get the defendants to settle on such a fluke, or else there really was some sort of conspiracy against the fish man. I believe that the merits of this case are a red herring. :P
That reminds me of a joke:
Q: What's the difference between Novak's attorney and a catfish?
A: One is a bottom-dwelling scum-sucker, and one's a fish.
The defendants are settling because the owner of petswarehouse is defending himself, and filing lawsuits is his "hobby". Also, most (all?) of the defendants are out of state and had to hire a NY lawyer. When you are right, but it would cost you $50,000 to prove it and the plaintaif is basically sueing you for free...
well settling looks good after a while.
most people would settle because they can't spend the $ to hold their defense. read the article : they settled when the raised fund ran out. this is IMO the problem of most western (particulary US) legal system. You may be in your right but do not have the money to defend. Thus justice is only a question of war of attrition : you have the supply line or not.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
From the lead in it said that it was a lawsuit filed in federal court, thus New York's anti-SLAPP statutes would not be applicable (to the best of my knowledge).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
This isn't the first time this has happened. Seems that anytime someone posts in the negative regarding a company, the crap almost immediately hits the fan. In fact, not too awfully long ago, we saw this story in which 2600 was threatened for trying to register the domain name verizonreallysucks.com.
I also seem to remember AOL instituting a policy some time ago restricting AOL-hosted websites and chat rooms from having any anti-AOL sentiments published... And what about those who have been unfortunate enough to raise the ire of the Scientologists?
Sad that having negative feelings about a group or corporation means having to spend one's life savings defending oneself in court.
In case it get's S'dotted.
...
... it was one of the selling points for me. Then the
Thinking of buying plants from Pet Warehouse? Don't.
Actually the plants I received were average to maybe a bit below
average, but they'll pull through in my tank. What is crappy is their
service! And they're maybe even a bit dishonest.
Way back in the beginning of April (April 10th to be exact) I was
seduced by the huge list of plants for sale on their web site. I
ordered 4 types of plants, all quite common. Though it states on their
web site that they directly import their plants, I didn't realize that
they'd import the plants you ordered *after* you placed your order! Or
at least that's the way it seemed
I received my order today, May 15th. It only took them 4.5 weeks. And
this is after 6 phone calls. Twice they promised they'd be shipped on
a certain date, then nada. And dealing with them on the phone is,
well, let's just say they stick to their pat answers and work very
hard at getting you off the phone as quickly as possible. My 6th call
was last week, and when they realized I was calling about a plant
order they proclaimed "They will be shipped on Monday". Click. And I
didn't even give them my name or order number! Maybe *all* orders
finally went out on Monday?
There was never a "sorry for the delay" or any sign whatsoever that I
was the valued customer and they were the business providing a product
that I was paying for.
Though I found all of this very annoying, it wasn't what annoyed me
the most. On my order confirmation I was quoted a shipping price of
$7.50. Nice
order arrived complete with an invoice stating that shipping was
$18.50! When I called them today to straighten this out, they
informed me that the original quote was wrong and that I was stuck
with the $18.50. Again, no "sorry for the mixup" or any indication
that they would fix the problem (with the web site and order
confirmation system).
Another hassle - their shipments *require* a signature. I quote their
email notice telling me the plants had been shipped: "You must be home
to sign for it. We guarantee live arrival if the order is accepted on
the first delivery attempt." Yikes. This was the first I knew of this
policy. So I actually had to take a half day off work in order to be
there to receive the order! These plants are getting *very* expensive.
The whole organization has the feel of someone who started yesterday
out of your neighbors garage. It even sounds that way when you talk to
them on the phone.
Maybe I expect too much?
Though I have a few gripes about Arizona Aquatics as well, they're
light years ahead of this outfit as far as service.
As always, your mileage may vary.
dan
--
This company should learn a thing or two, from the notorious
programmer/book-author Herbert Schildt.
This gentleman has been slammed by the members of BOTH the C and C++ standardization
commitee, Academia, Usenet, and just about anyone old enough to write an Amazon review.
Herb however, acknowledges the "points" of his critics in his later books, but continues
doing what he feels like.
He is almost the "abusive boyfriend" of programming books. You know "I am sorry baby,
I don't spend as much time with you as I used, I know I have cheated on you, but BITCH,
get off my back".
It is best for this company to acknowledge the inferriority of their products, but keep
making them anyways. People wont notice it, just ask the millions of heart broken girlfriends
with black eyes.
--
Well it would be true, but Mr. Novak seems to have actually brought legal proceedings. Almost to the point of barratry really.
The revolution will be televised. Blackout restrictions apply.
However, the American justice system does allow a sufficiently large number of people to do this straight back. And I'm not talking about class action suits, from which only lawyers benefit, anyway.
It's called small claims court. Pay the filing fee (typically less than $100), bring a sufficiently plausible gripe that your case won't get dismissed, represent yourself. If you win, you can even get the filing fee reimbursed, and even if not, rest assured that the company has spent more on paying their lawyer to show up than you were asking for in damages.
Think of it as the legal equivalent of DDoS.
From the Long Island Business News ...
...
http://www.libn.com/Column_details.cfm?ID=1249
"Novak, meanwhile, said he has further legal targets. One is the Better Business Bureau of Metropolitan New York. The BBB gives Pets Warehouse an "unsatisfactory rating," the organization's lowest. Novak said some of the complaints were from another business that licensed the Pets Warehouse name and that he didn't get adequate opportunity to respond. "
Shoot for the stars
$666.66/hour.
Best Slashdot Co
Actually, that isn't exactly what happened. On that list there is a long time trend of getting advice on where to shop (think about it, there aren't that many places to buy aquatic plants...tiny hobbie). One guy offered his opinion. Dozens more chimed in with similar stories (not just "me too"). One guy's complaint was overcharged shipping, but there were many others (including delayed shipping running into the multiple weeks, dead plants upon arrival, etc). There are just too many people that agreed for me to think he made it up. Plus, check the history of the case. The plaintiff continuously adds people each time someone says something negative about this their experiences, or even about the suit. My favorite part? Two of the defendants are John Doe and Mary Roe (in essence anyone else from the APD that he decides to add). More confusion is that he has claimed, in another article that filing suits is his "hobby." He also admits that the court is five miles from him, so it is a short drive, while each defendant has to pay for a plane ticket and motel to appear in court. The guy enjoys this. Read some of the amended complaints he has written, some are funny, most are sad, and generally all are poorly written. Why? Oh, he's representing himself. Wait, you say, how can a non-lawyer represent a corporation (Pets Warehouse Inc.)? Well, it can't, but he is doing it anyway. As soon as they sort out whether or not his company is incorporated or a sole-proprietorship maybe this will go away (if is is INC as he says, he can't represent it). For more information (and trust me, this is more about free speech and the internet than it is about plants or aquariums) here are some sites: Forum for the suits discussion (generally pro defendants) Forum hosted by the plaintiff (he has a habit of deleting messages, and blocking posters, as is his right, but be aware it will only have ONE side) The defense fund's web site A collection of court documents hosted by the lawyer in charge of the fund And, finally, to archives of the original messages, so you can read it yourself, and see what REALLY happened
.sig on vacation
So what would happen if I had posted something like this:
In My Opinion Petswhatever.com is horrible because x, y, and z.
I don't see why they would sue. Contact me and find out more about why I wrote what I wrote, but to take legal action only risks ill will and a counter suite.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Please cease and desist from defaming The Church Of Scientology® on this public forum. If your message is not removed with in 24 hours, our attornies shall pursue this matter further in court. This is your only warning.
I hate to say it, but where are the countersuits here? Hell, where's the DoJ nailing this bastard for violation of civil liberties?
The courts have ruled time and again that the public welfare requires that discussion of civil and criminal cases trumps ALL other rights. There is absolutely no way any suit for "trademark infringement" against a defense fund because it bore the trademark name of the company suing would last 5 seconds before a judge.
What's the alternative - "We're collecting money for unnamed people to fight an unnamed company in an unnamed state for reasons we can't discuss (and can't warn you to avoid repeating). Please be generous!"?
The ONLY reason this even got before the court was buried deep in the article - Novak was representing himself. Probably because no lawyer would touch this case with a 10-foot pole.
I'm a firm believer in the right of people to represent themselves (and equally hostile to the "YANAL, shut up!" posts we see here). Countries where access to the courts are restricted to a privileged few who must always fear the possibility of having that access revoked tend to be less free than countries where the courts are open to all. But that must come at a price - you use this access to trample the rights of others, either as a pro se asshole or a corporate SLAPPer then you need to pay a hefty price for it.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
What a Analog-Hole! Did he go to the RIAA school of Business?
"Alienate your customers at all costs!"
"When things don't go your way, sue!"
"If all else fails, involve the government!"
"The customer is ALWAYS wrong, and is trying to destroy your business!"
The only country in the world where you have the right to hold any opinion you want, unless you use a computer to express it. And soon, the only country in the world where it is legal to own an unlicensed firearm, but owning an unlicensed CD player will get you five years in the slammer.
/. and salon.com have now been sued for reporting the story of the suit against the people that bitched about Pets Warehouse.
/. Crap. Oh well.
Oh...crap...now I'll probably get sued for making a joke about them suing
http://www.aquaria.net/lawsuit.html
And the archive of the infamous mailing list is at:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/index.php
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
Apparently PetzWhorehouse doesn't want any more customers.
This kind of bad press only makes them look stupid and desperate. Kinda reminds me of Bernie Shifman
Is it just me, or do these people figure the world owes them just because they are alive?
*sigh*
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
From GTA3
/.'ers. . .
"Is your work taking time away from more important things like watching wrestling? There's a solution! Sue someone! See the great thing about this country is that you can sue anyone, and probably win, or at least get a settlement!"
GAWD things like this tick me off! I know we have a great legal system comparitivly, but I still hate that feeling I get from stories like these. I guess I am just going to have to form my own country full of
McD
People who are against human cloning must be bitter they are not good enough to be cloned.
"It's not about the First Amendment or squashing free speech. One of the suit's purposes is to stop people from spreading vicious lies and is directed at making them accountable for saying things that are not true." I think the above statement sums things up nicely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is a clause excluding lies/false statements from First Amendment protection is there?
$50,000 is a year's worth of mortage payments, car payments, savings for my son's college fund, investing in my retirement plan, food, utility bills, and still includes enough left over to actually do stuff for my three weeks of vacation, have a cushion for unplanned expensives and actually have some fun every now and then. This doesn't included the emotional costs involved in a protracted legal dispute either.
That's why people are settling imnsho.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
Go here:l timateb b.cgi
http://www.petswarehouse.com/cgi-bin/ubb/U
and let their forum posters know about their practices, or at least tell them about the Salon article so that they can read it themselves. Post in a forum for whatever pet you have.
-Chuck
A few weeks back I sent Pets Warehouse a letter condemning their decision to file a $15 mil. suit on a group of vocal dissatisfied customers. In the letter, I brought up Pets Warehouse's unsatisfactory rating by the Better Business Bureau.
In their response to me, the email began with the line:
"We're suing the BBB too!"
The suing individual regularly posts to usenet and to the mailing lists. Here are some messages you can look at to evaluate his behavior. Or, read the article where he talks about his suing "hobby.". The mail to the list where he calls a defendant a bum and teases people with "PS: any monies collected will be the subject of a cause of action to have those monies turned over to the Plaintiff--Give generously." is probably the best.
Hope that helps your evaluation of the plantiff. Most people get lawyers to sue. This plantiff did not. Most people don't talk about a suit in progress. Certainly, they don't try to browbeat the defendant without lawyers present. What do you think now?
I'm the best IRC client ever.
Is not taken according to your friendly WHOIS.
... but I don't want to be sued.... after all, I could lose all of my Karma.
42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
He should have countersued.
Made him come to his state and duke it out. Make him spend money on gas and then negotiated it back.
This Novak cat is going to die a lone, miserable exsistence if he doesn't straighten up. Truly a pehtetic thing to do to another human being.
Hear ye, hear ye, court docket # 8008135 will come to order: Anonymous Coward vs. Sc00ter.
Can I sue a mailing list for NOT mentioning my company, thus denying me all this free publicity?
m00.
Their intelligence rivals my elbow.
Fits very well into the picture how some of us foreigners have of the whole suing deal in the US. Might be a amplified view caused by too many cheap tv series. :)
Anyway, I haven't read the thead/actual emails but it seems stuped that they did block his email and did not allow him to defend himself. After all that's also what free speach is about.
Still a lawsuit seems over the edge.
is that people are not making a distinction between SAYING SOMETHING and POSTING SOMETHING.
A message board is NOT a conversation. It's a public forum. Saying a company is dishonest on a message board is equivalent to having it printed in the newspaper or broadcast on radio/tv.
Like it or not, libel laws usually make this distinction, so the law against libel does apply here.
Saying you think a company is dishonest in a conversation usually is not actionable. But publishing something like that in a newpaper or on the internet is.
I have no opinion on this particular case, but I do think that people fail to make the distinction between a converstaion and a message board.
Let their customers know about this practice, or at least tell them about the Salon article go to:i mateb b.cgi
http://www.petswarehouse.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ult
create an account and post in the forum of whatever pet you have. They have a few thousand members of their forums, and it looks pretty active. Spread the truth.
-Chuck
I'm on a number of mailing lists that prohibit attachments. And every once in a while, I see a whine from a partially clued subscriber that he can't submit because he wants to use Outlook, which attaches some cruft and causes the list manager software to drop the item. Such whinage is usually met with the exhortation to use a Real MUA.
Mail? Put "slashdot" in the subject to pass the spam filters.
...alleging libel and defamation and seeking $1 million in damages. He also claimed that he had suffered "$5 million, plus interest" in damages to his "good name and reputation and to his business interests."
What the heck does that mean? So I guess everyone on the mailing list was about to buy $6 million worth of plants from this store until someone else on the mailing list complained about the store?
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Awhile back, Slasdot posted a story about "Bernard Shifman (is a moron spammer)" who spammed his resume to 1000's of people then got irate as hell when anti spam activits called him on it. Well... Bernie threatened to sue everyone and their grandmother over this.
This sounds exactly like what Mr. Novak did, except this bigger moron actually went through with the threats. Unbelieveable. I seriously wonder if he thinks after word of his lawsuit gets out (and it obviously has) that he is going to have ANY customers? Espically in a rather small market of aquatic plants.
Suing your customers whom you've screwed over with shoddy service sure isn't the way I'd go about building a successful business. But then again, the RIAA/MPAA are still in buisness... and they're the kings of alienating customers...
Go figure
Jason
He's totally creeping out the Great One, eh...
(*SIGH*) If only that were a joke.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
This is yet another nail in the coffin of free speech. I guess I'm gonna have to write a parser that I feed all my comments through...
I can see it now...
Jutkers News Service:
In a ruling today, the federal supreme court ruled that opinions are now all illegal. The justices were split, with half saying "I'm not prepared to issue a statement at this time that might be construded as something libel" the other justices had this to say reading from a prepared statement. "Citizens who engage in 'opinions' now must be ready to be held accountable for those 'opinions' in a court of law. The willy-nilly saying what you think will only bring you trouble. They should keep their mouths shut and enjoy the free open society they are lucky to have"
A press conference that was held later, the justices were asked what they thought this meant for free speech. Their response, reading from a prepared statement "Free speech isn't so free anymore... people just opening their mouths is bad business. If any person can just go out and do 'free speech' stuff including opinions and observations, what kind of world would we live in. Companies spend millions on marketing campaigns just so some person can go on a website and say 'I had bad service' thus ruining millions of dollars of advertising. Suddenly that free speech isn't so cheap anymore. What happens when that company goes out of business and all those people lose there jobs! Don't you see, by that person opening their mouth once it ruined a whole company"
The reporter countered asking "What if the company really had bad service?" Justice millhouse responded slowly, reading through a couple of pages. "It has been our observation that businesses never treat a customer poorly, because it would be bad business. If someone has bad service, they've brought it upon themselves, and they are to blame."
Pretty much the rest of the press conference went on with the same thing. I'd like to comment more on this but I feel my opinions would land me in a lawsuit, or worse jail.
God Bless America, the home of the free and brave...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
It's called 'mobbing'.
Crows hate owls and hawks and cannot possibly ever hope to win a fight with one, no matter how many crows there are. So, rather than hiding, if crows see a hawk, they will fly around it at a safe distance and SCREAM at it. Caw! Caw! More crows will come and join. If the hawk goes for any one crow, goodbye crow, and the rest will scream even worse. Result: good luck finding prey with a lot of crows tirelessly screaming around you, hawk!
Thus, the hawk is 'mobbed' by crows, and that is the defense I mean.
I read this story in Salon, from a link on CNet. The first thing I thought of was 'slashdot oughta cover this!', and then when I came to Slashdot, it was the top story. Good job, all the people who no doubt all submitted it at once... because nothing quite rivals Slashdot as a 'mobbing site'. Many, many people read Slashdot- many people who are NOT FOND OF BARRATRY.
The fact is, as things stand right now, legal attacks of this nature ARE beyond what most people can withstand, whether they are justified or not: it's unsurprising that people are forced to settle because they cannot destroy their lives just to be an example.
That's why 'mobbing', like crows mobbing hawks, is the best answer: if you have no defense and can't possibly win a fight, it CAN still be possible to make things so unpleasant for an attacker that it gives up. I would love to see this 'petswarehouse' guy bankrupt: judging from the Salon story, I think he is a danger to society, all the more because his behavior may be imitated by others realizing, "Hey, you don't HAVE to be a multinational corporation to wreck ordinary people's lives with baseless lawsuits!".
I am no more capable of this than the original victims were: but I hope I have expressed the 'mobbing' defense adequately that it may turn out useful. People do this already- the point is, rather than being whiny bitches who can't win, they are sounding the alarm in a disorganized but determined way, about a deadly threat.
If you had read the article you would have seen that they claim to not have blocked his address. His messages were blocked because he was mailing attachements to the mailing list.
Doug Alcorn
Now, we get links to the arts farty fuckers at Salon.
Oh dear Slashdot of yore, where did you go?!?
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
"Dan Resler agreed to pay $4,150. [...] 'We believed strongly that we could win,' says Resler, 'but I was not prepared to spend $50,000 to do it. So, I settled.'".
That is horrible. It's like saying "I didn't do anything wrong but if I try to defend myself I'll ruin my life". It's redicilous to think that you only have a right to a fair trial if you have the money to do so. So I guess it's liberty and justice for those who can afford it. Hah.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Individually it's easy for a large corporate budget to force a consumer to settle, but instead if we ALL link banner ads to this issue and ALL spread the word online about what's going on, we'll ALL get named in the suit and eventually either the bullshit meter at the Court will hit the red or this idiot will run out of money.
Will probably be much more effective than contributing to a legal defense fund in the long run.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Looks like PetsWarehouse.com has a message board. Maybe all us slashdoters should go over there and post our opinions on the topic.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I love the Internet. Is that Mr. Sc00ter? Dr. Sc00ter? Admiral von Sc00ter? It's hard to take someone seriously when their name has numerals in it.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
I'm here to tell you that in all that in each of these categories PetsWarehouse is THE BEST OF THE BEST !!! I base this assertion, not on any first-hand knowledge (never dealt with them, never even heard of them before today). I just don't want to get sued.
They are settling because of sticker shock. Their defense fund was running low, and they could not afford to defend themselves in court.
This guy wants to sue the Better Business Bureau because they gave his business an "unsatisfactory" rating. Eventually he is going to run into someone with deeper pockets than he has, and he will learn that just because someone says something negative about him or his business, it isn't libel.
He's lucky - in some places he could be sued for barratry.
>dan
>--
>
>-- Don't trust anyone with a user number lower than 10,000.
You have defamed me for the last time, Dan! I will not stand for this sort of character assasination. I'll see you in court!
IANAL, but I believe you can win judgements against someone if you can prove that they've filed a frivolous lawsuit. In fact, I believe filing frivolous lawsuits is punishable in and of itself -- they might be able to find a NY District Attorney that might haul him up on charges.
Yes, you're right -- it is expensive to defend yourself against a lawsuit like this, even if you are correct, but... I just couldn't see settling it. And I'd be contacting every media outlet in NY to publicize the suit. (You cannot sue a newspaper for covering something like this, or -- more accurately -- you can't win.)
And in conclusion, I love, I mean I want to have really nasty monkey love, with ALL the corporations that I have shelled out good, hard money to for products that have either harmed me in some manner, destroyed the remaining ecosystem, or have made sure that the planet will be suitable for T-2.
Ahhhh, Liquid Met-al....
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
As several have mentioned, there are some precedent laws dealing with libel over the internet. Pretty disgruntling. I wonder why this escaped the mainstream radar? Surely the ACLU or Oprah would have something to say about it.
DISCLAIMER: I made no intentionally misleading or disparaging comments in this internet post about Oprah Winfrey, the ACLU, or the Texas Cattlemen's Association.
And neither did Slashdot.
One of the more bizarre things is that Novak is defending a corporation, yet claims $15M for "emotional distress"! How can a corporation have emotional distress?
Petswarehouse is /.ed- Get ready for for a suit, Taco!
I mean, sure, the added karma's nice, but this guy obviously has no hesitations about suing people...
After reading the defendants comments, I don't understand why they didn't sue petswarehouse.com for poor service, slow shipping and obvious misrepresentation of price. $15 million seems excessive for comments rightfully made by disgruntled customers. I mean, their company probably doesn't even make that much in a year.
... then half of Slashdots post would read like this
e dited][edited][edited][edited][edited][edited][edi ted] and then [edited][edited][edited] also [edited][edited][edited]
[edited] sucks. They're [edited] OS crashes. I constantly get BSOD and it's always making me lose my work. I hate [edited] and I hate [edited][edited][edited][edited][edited][edited][
We can all see how ridiculous this is. Now IANAL but Free Speech is a right as long as libel and slander are taken into consideration. I believe that the point of this lawsuit would be to prove that it isn't libel. To prove that would be to show evidence of the issues that they had. Late shipments, so on and so forth.
I can't go and say that [edited] stole money from my bank account. That would be libel. BUT I can say that I have had 7 hours / week of downtime due to crashes and so on... as long as it's true, it's not libel.
> Did you know we only use 10% of our total brain's capacity?
The rest is devoted to Xenu! Fear!
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Filing suits is apparently his hobby. And if pets warehouse actually is incorporated, it is illegal for him as a non-lawyer to represent them in filing these suits. But hey, what are you gonna do, sue him?
He does *not* say filing suits is his hobby. He says case law is is hobby (I guess he likes to practice in the real world). He may be an asshole, but please do not misquote him.
Cat, the other, tastier white meat.
Slashdot wants to run banners? Ads? How about one for this group's legal fund? I've not gotten through enough of the articles to know but is the EFF helping these people out? Is anyone countersuing this guy? I'm not clear on the spelling but barratry? Frivolious (sp?) lawsuits clog the system and cost the community. If nothing he's likely guilty of that.
I'm not into aquatic plants but I AM into various lists where companies are openly slammed for crappy service. I wouldn't think twice about sharing a bad experience and most of my peers in those circles don't either. That's one of the good things about the 'net. Sure, one complaint might be an anomoly or sour grapes but when others chime in? It's no hard to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
If this community is as small as it sounds then this guy's name has GOT to be mud all around. I'm surprised he's got any income at all right about now. I sure as heck wouldn't consider using him if not for his poor service than for his crappy habit of suing. Most companies in his position, if they're as active as he's claimed to be, would try to solve the problems and clear their name the right way. That he's actively attacking his customers speaks volumes and I thank Slashdot for shedding light on this.
How about we all put up banners on our sites linking this? We did it for DeCSS and this guy is almost as bad IMO. My opinion might change when I've read more than the few articles I have but I doubt it. Even if the initial accusations\comments weren't 100% solid his response to it has certainly shown his spots.
Mod the parent UP!
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Doesn't NY (or wherever Novak lives) have laws against filing frivilous lawsuits?
I just can't believe some of the defendents settled instead of countersuing. It is time for "loser pays" laws in this country.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
It seems like this guy is running around suing anyone who has ever said anything remotely bad about him on the internet... does that mean /. and all of us are next, since the company name (which seems to be his hot button) is up on the main page?
Suing the Better Business Bureau for doing their job? I hope so, he'll finally get someone with the resources to countersue his ass to the stone age.
Someone is DOSing them as we speak. At 13:05:06 EST They changed their WHOIS database record, presumable to sidestep the DNS, but it's out again. I don't have even the slightest amount of pity. According to this website http://www.petsforum.com/psw/ this guy sues as a hobby.
-Chuck
Wow, this guys' got it down, sue a few hundred people for millions then retire! brilliant! Amazing! Outstanding.
Who wants to say I suck so I can sue you? Please? please? any takers?
It's just Crap.
If his service was truly that bad, why didn't he contact the BBB? That's why they exist, after all.
What is your Slash Rating?
On the main page of his site he has the Gomez certification logo at the bottom. This in fact is misrepresentation since Gomez certifications have all expired according to Gomez.com.
Here is the quote.
"We regret to announce that the Gómez Merchant Certification program has ceased operations as of March 31, 2002. In light of this decision, Gómez will not conduct any further merchant certifications. We will also remove all references to Gómez Merchant Certification other than this notice on Gómez.com on April 1, 2002. Merchants currently certified under the Gómez Certification program should remove all references, logos and/or images of the Gómez Merchant Certification program displayed on their sites or affiliate sites by March 31, 2002.
Man, what an idiot. Can we sue him for that?
Based on the last 2 ammendments to the case it seems logical that the plaintif will include these posts on /. as libelous too.
/. (snif)
I'll miss my
Hell, I'm already getting sued, I'll add on to it.
PetsWarehouse.com ATE MY BALLS!
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Of course, I have no way of knowing whether that did or didn't happen. But I do think it's premature to conclude that all of the mailing list contributors were simply bullied into submission by these cockamamie claims. This was a substantial group of people who knew each other's email addresses, right? It is certainly possible that one of them contacted a lawyer, was a lawyer him/herself, or simply did some research on how to respond effectively when someone files an unfounded lawsuit against you, and then gathered the troops for a unified response. (If not, that's my recommendation for next time.)
No, no, no. This is not a sig.
What about reviews on sites such as Epinions, Amazon, bizrate and the now-defunct Gomez? Even eBay? Those comments are more "public" than some listserv for underwater plant hobbyists, as far as their potential to hurt a business' sales. If this guy effectively "wins," does it mean we could get sued because we said we didn't like a book we read? Will companies that get a bad rap on Epinions because of their creepy business practices just become a shell to collect settlements from the people who get swindled by them?
I for one would have been cautious about this merchant after hearing about their poor customer service. But Novak's responding by suing instead of cleaning up the attitude that brought on complaints in the first place, well, in the real free-market economy, he'd be out of business. Kinda like Bill Jones, who would never get my vote for anything ever again after spamming people. Take the high road, guys...
Which is worse the a-hole who (ab)uses the system or the a-holes who set up a system so it can easily be abused ? Hint, politicians are usually lawyers and they write the laws and guess who profits from packed courthouses?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
What the hell is wrong with this judge that they are actually wasting the time to hear this case to begin with?
I keep hearing, from all corners of the "judicial" system, that the courts are "clogged" then I hear about cases like this that can be thrown out at the whim of the judge.
If the judges would just start killing cases like this (and fining the lawyers that bring them, also fully within their power) then the "clogs" will be reduced.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Heh, heh, Petswarehouse.com appears to be getting /.ed....it's going r e a l l y s l o w.
No one got beat up more often than the mimes of the old west!
Well, if I'm not wrong, nothing is for free, in the US specially. If you read the article, one of the main reasons for settling was that they couldn't afford facing the full trial.
Justice MUST be free, or it is not justice, it becomes just another good, which can be acquired of higher quality and quantity by the wealthiest.
That's my very humble opinion, of course.
It seems they have put down the server.
Now, here is a site that truly ** DESERVES ** to be DoSd out of existance for MONTHS.
Are the script kiddies are too busy DoSing EFNET servers or something else completely meaningless?
Here's a real chance for Internet Vigilante Justice.
I just wanted to check out their site and their website is already /.'ed.
Oh well
People have a right to freedom of speech. I have voiced my complaints many times against crappy vendors, crappy banks, crappy stores and crappy products.
But what would happen if this dude continues to win, setting precendences for companies like Microsoft to sue slashdot for example on how slashdot user continue to bash windows/microsoft products.
I use DSLreports constantly to express my opinions of products from routers to broadband service and i KNOW it can get nasty on there. What would happen of COmcast sued dslreports and everyone on there? What if lucent got sick of hearling complaints about companies products or services and did the same?
Heck EPINIONS.COM does a fantastic job keeping the consumer aware of products and scams, we should go rate this company on epinions.com as a horrible company to do business with.
My list of companies to stay away from is.
1. Cross country bank
2. Verizon
3. Southwestern Bell
4. Apex collections.
5. Blockbuster (music/video/whatever.. they all steal)
Consumers have a right to now, and freedom of speech even includes the ability to bitch about something.
Aren't we still human anymore?
If Robert Novak had listened to Resler's criticism, responded positively and made some effort to make amends to the APD community at large, then this whole never happens and it is never heard of outside of the APD community.
But the fact is that Robert Novak had thin skin, sued for amounts of incredible proportions and basically paper-bullied people into settling...and now the WHOLE online community knows about it. And that can only hurt his business.
Novak needs to learn one golden rule of customer service: The Customer Is Always Right.
Dude, that's a heck of a story you got in your journal. You know, I just had a vision of heaven: it's not a place with halos and harps, not loose women or riches or food....heaven is no stupid people. Or at least not having to deal with them. You can probably still watch the stupid people on earth for amusement. Good luck with your auto troubles...for my part, I think I'm going to stick with my hand-me-down '85 Pontiac 6000 until it won't run no more.....
Novak saw the efforts to spread the word about the suit on the Web as a further infringement of his company's trademark, as well as the propagation of defamatory and libelous comments.
Yeah, and his subsequent actions really helped the image of his company. Is this guy just a complete idiot or was he deliberatly pushing for a cash settlement the whole time?
I stole this Sig
When will companies learn that you can't just squash criticism on the internet? When you try, you just create more and more publicity and sympathy for your critics.
How many times have we heard about a person or company being sued by a corporation and settling because they run out of cash? Now there are still the employment costs and stuff but I would at least think there should be public defenders available for liable cases to help take off some of the financial strain. Court cases shouldn't be determined by last man standing.
I stole this Sig
IANAL, of course, but I wonder if the defendants could move the case from civil to criminal court by charging Novak with criminal intimidation.
That seems like a reasonable description of what he's done, essentially saying "Pay me a few thousand or I'll make sure you pay even more court fees."
Whether you use a tire iron or the court system is pretty much irrelevant.
I haven't had the pleasure of being sued yet, so I just don't have a clue: how does a $15000 fund get eaten up before a trial? Exactly what are the expenses? I just can't see how even a $200/hr lawyer's bills would eat this up, since it seems there would be so little for him to actually spend any time on. I'm obviously missing something big, but what?
Does a lawyer really spend 75 hours reading mailing list messages and thinking about them, that a normal person spends 15 minutes on? If so, then lawyers are overpaid. ;-)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Dear Mr. Ebert,
Due to your slanderous and libelous review of the obviously wonderful movie "Death to Smoochy", we are hear by serving you with this lawsuit. We seek in damages $100 million, the anticipated box office take for this wonderful comedy staring the ever-funny Mr. Robin Williams. We hope this will not affect your judgement on the upcoming smash "Scooby Doo" staring Matthew Lillard.
PS - We could dismiss this suit if you revise your review to at least 3 stars. Oh, and a thumbs up.
Sincerely,
Warner Brothers Legal
Google Search finding
Seems there was a time when he thought beating up other companies was okay. Not anymore? Shoe on the other foot now?
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Doesn't apply because the NY statute only covers speaking against government, not private business.
Spandex is a privilege, not a right!
There is a chat forum on his site:
Chat forum
--- witty signature
Big Daddy, Johnny, Burp, Aunt Zelda, Scott, Slurp, Big Momma
OMG, does he have ANY idea what the BBB does to business that fuck with them?! He's going to get blasted to hell and back. If he thinks 'Unsatisfactory' is the worst they can do he's in for a nasty surprise. This sleezy antique dealership near lexington complained about the BBB after they got a poor rating because half of their merchandise was bootleg. The BBB had them shut down within 2 weeks. It was killer.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I did. They were a little confused.
Bad things happen when people back down in the face of bullies. Nothing new here. But it's still good to be reminded.
...Corporations had inferior legal rights in comparison to natural, real human beings.
In my perfect world of the future, corporations can only sue other corporations and corporations that seriously violated laws would be subject to a "Corporate Death Sentence".
At any rate, Robert Novak is, in my opinion, absolutely THE most shameful example of an American I am aware of. I feel the need for a shower just knowing my feet rest upon the same soil as his.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
BBB of Metropolitan New York, Inc.
257 Park Avenue South
New York, NY 10010-7384
(900) 555-4222
PETS WAREHOUSE
1550 Sunrise Highway
Copaigue, NY 11726
View Location Map
Local Phone Number: (631)789-5400
Fax Number: (631)789-9340
Type of Business Code: 00086
TOB Classification: PET SHOPS
Nature Of Business
This firm is a pet shop. The Bureau's file opened on 02/01/1995.
Customer Experience
This firm has an unsatisfactory rating, which is the Bureau's lowest rating.
The firm operates an affiliated business on the internet offering products through its Copiague location.
The company's size, volume of business, and number of transactions may have a bearing on the number complaints received by the BBB. The number of complaints filed against a company may not be as important as the type of complaints, and how the company handled them. The BBB generally does not pass judgement on the validity of complaints filed.
Closed Complaints
Total number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 36 months: 23
Total number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 12 months: 8
Complaints Concerned (Please understand that complaints may concern more than one issue)
Credit/Billing Issues: 11
Delivery Issues: 11
Defective/Damaged Merchandise: 3
Failure to Provide Service: 4
Delayed Service: 2
Failure to Provide Promised Adjustment: 3
Selling Practices: 4
Outcome of all complaints
Full Adjustment: 9
Partial Adjustment: 4
Disputed: 7
No Response: 3
Report as of: 4/4/2002
Copyright: 2002 BBB of Metropolitan New York, Inc.
As a matter of policy, the Better Business Bureau does not endorse any product, service, or company. BBB reports generally cover a three-year reporting period, and are provided solely to assist you in exercising your own best judgment. Information contained in this report is believed reliable but not guaranteed as to accuracy. Reports are subject to change at any time.
The Better Business Bureau reports on members and non-members. Membership in the BBB is voluntary, and members must meet and maintain BBB standards. If a company is a member of the BBB, it is stated in this report.
Doesn't the court appoint you a lawyer if you cannot afford one?
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
I'm not saying that it was right or wrong of them. I am saying that bullies like this only succeed when people don't fight. If you back down during a fight, it doesn't count when dealing with bullies!
I have the stones, I have been fighting SCUM. But, when Mattel was asked by a judge at a summary judgment motion hearing as to what was libelous, Mattel moved to dimiss.
Fight Spammers!
Bzzzt!
I own 3 firearms, all unlicensed, all perfectly legal. Two are rifles and 1 is 44 Magnum pistol. Had to go through the waiting period for the pistol, however.
-
Yes, that's true. But I figure if this ever happened to me, I'd start several ad campaigns to raise public awareness, and eventually the entire country would be in an uproar over their first amendment rights.
This isn't the first time this has happened, where big business wins out against what is good and right. Monsanto sued Radiance Dairy, a small farm (or maybe several farms) that produce organic milk, for labeling their milk as coming from RBGH-free cows. Radiance settled because it wasn't worth it to them to keep defending themselves.
Don't let this happen! There should be an organization to deal with these things -- to provide funds for obvious cases like Microsoft vs. Lindows, Monsanto vs. Radiance Dairy, and Pets Warehouse vs. APD!
Good idea with your Pontiac :)
Amen to your vision of heaven. The way I figure it, even if I lose the suit, it's an experience and I've learned. I trusted someone in a profession known for lying, and I got burned.
I'll still trust, but I'll be much more apt to cover my bases in the future.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
... this guy has a store where I live, that means I can choose not to go there in resopnse to this lawsuit. I will say his store is a dump compared to PetSmart
Jaysyn
(go ahead, try and sue me)
There is a war going on for your mind.
And now www.petswarehouse.com is being slashdoted. We'd all better find some good lawyers.
Interesting court system the most civilized country on earth has. Tailor made for people who have money to spend. Who cares about people who don't? Lets face it: they suck, they are loosers! Why should they have a right to get a fair judjement when they can't even raise a few thousand dollars? Uncivilized countries all over the rest of the world have still to learn from this ...
The aquatic plant growing community is fairly small and relatively easy to keep tabs on the entire community. All he has to do is give enough bad customer service and monitor all the message boards waiting for someone to complain. Then he can move in and start making some real money by filing lawsuits (notice that he doesn't use a lawyer, so he's not losing any money doing so).
He tries to post messages to defend his honor, but for some reason they were getting blocked. Note here that he is a regular poster to these message boards and is well aware of how to use them. But this time he decides to include MIME attachments to his posts, which I would assume he knows very well would bounce. Now he can claim that they're trying to censor him!! That's worth at least another couple of million dollars!
From the sounds of things this guy hides behind a pathetic business just to drum up people he can sue and make some real money from. Sounds like one of the lowest life forms out there. It's sad that he's making so many lives miserable, and that he seems to enjoy it. Heck, he's made a career out of it. He's probably riding high now, but it will all come back to haunt him in the end. He who lives by the lawsuit will die by the lawsuit. One way or another, he'll get the reward he so richly deserves.
Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
sounds more like bad programming instead of hacking. I'm a web dev, I know how EXTREMELY challenging it is to restrict "admin" features to the 10.1 addresses. Oh, it's so hard to do that!
I predict falling sales revenues for this guy. Wonder who he'll sue next to make up for that?
According to the article:
Novak, meanwhile, said he has further legal targets. One is the Better Business Bureau of Metropolitan New York.
Nope, no sig
I am sure that everyone (else) who tried to go to petswarehouse to get an email address and send this fool a bit-slapping (my new term - he he), has discovered that his site has been slashdotted. Oh, let the lawsuits begin for that one...
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I tend to take people more seriously when their name has numerals in it. You apparently missed a memo.
Do a google search before posting.
So if the Better Business Bureau case gets thrown out of court, will the people who settled be able to countersue? I mean, at some point a judge is going to get pissed at this jerk. Does that mean that all those who already settled are just screwed with no chance of getting their settlements back?
dbc
I hope they are filling complaints against this company with the better business bureau.. It might not do a lot, but if a company has several complaints filed against it, it doesn't look good.
I dunno -- If I found out that my new division chief was named B1arg0n the Destr0yer, I'd be pretty alarmed.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Do a search on petswarehouse on google. After the first hit, it ain't pretty.
-
Granted, this is merely a hypothetical situation (and probably wouldn't work against someone like Pets Warehouse (aka. 'it's hard to con a con-man')), but how would something like this work in real life? Say, there is no 'evidence' of some kind of 'conspiracy' beyond a statement that is clearly stated to be nothing more than hypothetical and the author goes on to make a disclaimer about use of said hypothetical (btw, I take no responsibility for how others may use the ideas presented in this post, I am merely posting to present a hypothetical situation in order to explore the legal ramifications of the actions resulting from following said hypothetical situation).
Could things be twisted around enough so that the prosecuting party has to prove the poster is legit, and not just someone from that hypothetical situation? I mean, could it really be considered to be 'libel' or something that would lead to 'a loss of money' if the poster has never bought anything from the company in the first place (anyone know enough about law to provide some enlightenment on this point)? Now imagine burdening the company with producing 'proof' that the poster is even a valid customer to begin with, and let's see how it would affect people who want to try stuff like this. And if the company has to provide such 'proof', how easy would it be to take it a step further and make the records 'talk' in court? If the records show poor performance on the company's side (as it would appear with Pets Warehouse), how would that look to the judge...?
Now, that might not have been worded the best and I feel like I'm rambling, but you should get general underlying ideas...
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
I know for a fact that pets warehouse is a front for a drug peddling business, and they steal all of their pets from small children. Robert 'I fuck my customers' Novak, sue me if you can find me....
just my 2 cents worth. you now owe me 2 cents.
This guy Novak is acting pro se. He's not a lawyer, yet he's representing a company in federal court. If the court had been on the ball, it would have rejected his attempts to file, since he's representing an entity other than himself. The only thing I can't figure out is why the list's attorney didn't file a summary motion to strike all of his pleadings on that basis.
I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners. - Berke Breathed
I tried to go to http://www.petSWEARhouse.com/ but there seems to be no site there. Oh wait, it's not even registered. I wonder who will be the first slashdotter to register it and point it at ... well, you know where :-)
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
You never know. If this twerp doesn't know when to stop, he might piss off a REAL lawyer or some other "hobbyist".
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Quite likely. If you settle, well, you settled. A lawyer might know of ways to get out of it, but it probably won't be easy if it is possible.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
These guys got backed into a corner by yet another 500-pound corporate gorilla.
Just do the math, you're making $30-$40K a year, family to feed, car and house payments, the typical stuff. And you basically have two options:
1. Fight the suit, it's gonna cost you better than a year's salary... if you win. You don't even want to think about the ramifications of losing.
or...
2. Give the gorilla a few grand, run a banner ad, and say you're sorry.
I don't say it's good and I don't say it's right, I'm just saying it's reality in today's society.
Geez, I even read the other day that the Hatfield's were suing the McCoys over access to a family cemetery in Kentucky.
Quomodo cogis comas tuas sic videri?
You know, I have never had any problems crashing in any flight simulator that I've ever used. So this begs an interesting question...
Does the Microsoft flight simulator have a terrain data package for Redmond?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Call them back and explain it to them. Be sure to call again so you eventually get every representative who answers the phone so they all know. You might also want to ask for the supervisor and the manager. They need to know, too. I bet they are all named Bob.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
http://www.petswarehouse.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimateb b.cgi :"Sorry, this bulletin board is temporarily unavailable, while we perform some routine maintenance. Please try back again later."
Could it be in any way related to somebody having posted the address here ?
Sign me up as a defendant!
What on earth is this company thinking?
Scare tactics like these are horrid!
Pets Warehouse has to be the worst company I've seen.
Does anyone have any idea if the EFF is aware of this case, and if so, are they considering taking it? This case is perfect for them. If ever there was a SLAPP happy jerk, this PetsWarehouse.com guy is it.
... I notice that BoycottPetsWarehouse.com has already been snatched up. Hope they do a good job with it.
Darn
Yes, Petswarehouse does have the two things you mention in common with scientology. However, they lack one important commonality; unlike the Scientologists, Petswarehouse doesn't have billions of dollars and fanatical supporters on their side. Novak's barratry is going to blow up in his face, and I can't wait to read all of the gory details when it happens.
From the Daily Legal Ass Report:
"Today, Popular Website Slashdot.org was sued for Trademark infringements for posting about a company we will not reveal for fear of being sued ourselves"
Rob Malda, in a statement to us, said "We will not back down from this attack on individual rights"
In a followup interview after Slashdot pulled all references and settled with this unnamed company, Malda states "Jon Katz made me do it"
We will let you know at a later time, the lawyer is at the door stating to even refer to an unnammed company is putting us in trouble.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
...for not living in the U.S.
Dag B
I had all sorts of thoughts about this law, or that law, that if passed might put a stop to nonsense like this. All were bad ideas, either putting more burden on those that might have a legitimate suit, which is bada, or allowing nutcases like this to even twist things further. At the very least, would just feed more lawyers... which is always bad. Kinda like giving M&M's to that cute rat living under your porch, pretty soon there are 10,000 of them, and they aren't so cute any more.
But how about this? Allow these people to appear in court electronically. A simple conference call would do. If identity is an issue, there are at least 2 or 3 fair and cheap ways to handle it. When you petition for electronic appearance, you have to submit a notarized cassette recording of your voice. Or perhaps, you have to show up at the local courthouse, be sworn in there, and allowed into a booth where there is a fairly secure phone line, and where it's a given that you've been positively ID'd as the one called to appear before court. Hell, maybe even videoconferencing could be arranged. I wouldn't mind my tax dollars paying for something that makes things fairer for all (who knows, the next nutcase might sue me).
Not having to buy plane tickets just to appear, would equalize things just a bit.
Also, there should be both state and federal laws prohibiting lawsuits against legal defense funds. No exceptions.
I'd like to send those people a nasty message, but those sneaks have their trademarked name embedded in their e-mail address! That address is pw@[insert their precious trademark here].com
This is why we need government regulation of flight simulation software. Otherwise we're training terrorists to crash into buildings!
If someone were to go to a phone booth or dorm phone, avoiding the use of their home phone (which would show up on the WATS billing statement, even if line-blocking or *67 were on), and were that person to dial PetsWarehouse at 1-800-991-3299, they would discover that the call is free to the caller, yet Long Distance to Pets Warehouse.
If one were to call them a bunch of times, it would cost PetsWarehouse more. If many people were to call them many times, it would be kind of a huge phone bill for them. A phone ringing off the hook a whole lot with no business coming in would really be bad for PetsWarehouse's business, too.
To do this, of course, would be wrong. Terribly, terribly wrong. Perhaps Congress should create a law that prevent the Internet and the phones from being abused in this manner.
I wonder how much their sales dropped since this incident. I'd be interested to see the numbers. Another thing I thought was interesting was it says on their website (www.petswarehouse.com) that they're ranked #2 by Yahoo.com. I'm sure Yahoo yanked any links or references to petswarehouse by now. I wonder if other sites have done the same...
BkrStMuse
I hate to point it out, but the more hot water that is stirred up, the more people will be cautious of buying anything online. I know for the most part I stick with brick and mortar shopping. I can see if a plant is healthy before I take it home. The only thing I have bought online in the last 3 years is bulk inkjet ink. My favorite printer (no names, no lawsuit) uses ink that is twice as expensive per mL as the prior model. Not every retail shop has the 16 oz bottles of ink. For printing photos I'll fill at $30 per 16 oz instead of $52 per 38 mL.
The truth shall set you free!
"Suggested"??? He said it would be wrong! WRONG! Whatever you do, don't do what he said would be wrong to do!!
This story reminds me of Soviet times in Russia, say, in the 70s. For those who doesn't know - there where no Stallinist terror in the 70s in Russia, you could tell jokes about communists and nobody would ship you to Gulag for this. In fact, there was a constitution with all the right words in it, a parliament, courts, subsidized appartments and plenty of newspapers. And there were no laws forbidding critisising the Party and the state. But when you were becoming a real threat to the system, like organising movements - you would lose your job, appartment, social benefits - all perfectly legally. For most of us then economic intimidation was enough to keep quiet in public.
Chinese communists are smarter than Russians. They allow private enterprise and pursuit of happiness, as long as everybody shuts up and don't question political interests of the elite. Eeeeeh.... And you shouldn't threaten economical interests of Politbureau family members either.
USA seems to have developed (with all good intentions) a deadly mechanism to shut people up and potentially destroy them for speaking and acting freely. Legal system can be and is used as a weapon of intimidation. The fact that mechanism of protecting less wealthy citizens against legalistic intimidation by more wealthy citizens (corporates) is explicitly lacking is interesting. What would you say of a state that wouldn't protect you against physical intimidation by a local warlord? Why doesn't it protect you against legal intimidation by the guy with deeper pockets?
Now, this is sad, because America used to be a democratic ideal for us (imperfect, but better than others). It is visibly getting more Chinese by the day. First we see how an interest group or monopoly can intimidate potential competitors by slapping multimillion lawsuits left and right. Then we could expect US state trademarking the word "Freedom" and...
--
The board appears to be down for "maintenance", but you can always check out their "Product Owerview"
This Novak guy probably has a lot of expertise from dealing with his family members. If I had the family that he does, I'd probably buy from him.
http://www.petswarehouse.com/Reptile.htm
When VPNs are outlawed, only outlaws have VPNs.
Of course you would. Then again, would Biargon the Destroyer be better? I have worked for that guy and it aint no picnic.
Do a google search before posting.
Hell, spread this story around, if I had any idea that a company I buy from MIGHT sue me if I say anything negative about them, I would simply NOT buy anything from them. Reguardless of the quality of the product I personally avoid people who run their buissnesses in this manner. I don' t know how other people would feel, but they have the right to know that this guy doesn't play fair or ethically, in my opinion.
So he has a fool for a client? Although I suppose that's already a given in this case...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I just realized I have actually been to this site before and they had a couple things I wanted to order (Saltwater items). But after reading this story I have NO INTENTION of EVER buying ANYTHING from these guys, PERIOD. On top of that I am going to tell all my other aquatic friends of this whole debacle (by refering them to the Salon article).
VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS, BOYCOTT THESE GUYS IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY DO BUISSNESS, IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO TRUELY GET THEM TO CHANGE!!!!
When stating an opinion about a company, you can get sued. In my case, I stated that the lack of scanning the uploads directory and still allowing it to be able to be downloaded could provide a way for trojans and viruses to move around.
I was then threatened with a lawsuit and had to print a retraction in order to prevent it. It was rather stupid, but these things have been going on for a long time.
If anyone would care to back me, I will state who and what for a lawsuit but I cannot afford one myself.
Sad isn't, "He who has the gold, makes the rules"
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
About 2.5 months ago, I wrote an article in my livejournal about how to solve the problem where Big Company spends money forever on a case, draining the Little Guy. Check it out.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
I think the guy at the 7-11 who sells them coffee is getting sued for "supporting" the slanderous comments.
Muhahahahahahahaah
Spandex is a privilege, not a right!
But, anyone using the term "vicious lies" is probably bs'ing anywayz. :-)
Spandex is a privilege, not a right!
Oops! With this post, *I'm* a defendant.
I've dealt with this kind of behavior before from those who represent themseloves. Yes, it can be expensive to handle along the way.
But guess what, punk: I *am* a lawyer, and my hourly is $400. If you want to start this, go for it; my kids want to go to college, and I'll have your inventory and 25% of your paycheck for the next 20 years . .
hawk, esq., hoping the frivolous papers come his way . . .
The posters were describing ACTUAL EVENTS AS HAPPENED TO THEM.
If I say, "I got a cup of bad coffee from Starbucks," does Starbucks have a case to sue me?
Of course not.
But that's just what happened here.
Spandex is a privilege, not a right!
God's #1 arch-angel and right-hand (right halo?) being. #2 in all of creation, lives in heaven, and rebels and is cast into hell.
sounds more like the "fool for a client" category . .
:)
hawk, esq.
I wonder how long you could run that site before being sued.....
-- Bob
But can I do that with each of my 8128 different IP addresses every day and ding them for near $4000 a week?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
The cheek of this guy! He hasn't been GRANTED the trademark. You cannot infringe a trademark that hasn't been granted yet. This one hasn't even been assigned to an examiner!
PETS WAREHOUSE Status: New Application - Record Initialized Not Assigned to Examiner
Primary Class: 31 - Natural agricultural products
Classes: 31 - Natural agricultural products
Goods & Services: RETAIL, WHOLESALE AND E-COMMERCE SALE OF PET LIVESTOCK AND RELATED PET SUPPLIES
Serial No: 76216568
Reg. No: 0000000
Filed: February 27, 2001
First Use: December 4, 1974
First Commerce: December 4, 1974
---------------
Original Applicant
Name: Novak, Robert
Address: 1550 Sunrise Hwy
Copiague
Entity Type: Individual
From what I understand, a number of homeowner's insurance policies provide coverage for slander and libel lawsuits.
i sin/
quoting http://www.iii.org/individuals/homei/hbasics/what
"You can purchase an umbrella or excess liability policy which provides broader coverage, including claims against you for libel and slander, as well as higher liability limits. Generally, umbrella policies cost between $200 to $350 for $1 million of additional liability protection. "
Often times this coverage may already be included in the insurance policy. For those of you in a position to purchase these policies, I don't see a reason not to negotiate the libel protection. It sure would have helped these guys.
Famous Last Words:
I've ordered a few aquatic plants, as well as a filter, light, aqaurium hood, and a few other things from them and all in all I've been pretty satisfied by their service. Wouldn't really be surprised if they did have quite a few problems though, just seem like the kind of company that would :)
Interestingly enough, he's cancelled his suits against people in california where anti-frivilous lawsuit penalties are in place, and he'd end up paying their legal fees.
Did you notice that their chat forums are down for "routine maintenance"? I'll bet none of us had anything to do with that, now? Did we?
Error loading humorous sig.
I'd be interested to know how the people who settled will feel in a few years. I suspect they will regret their decision. I was bullied when I was a kid. I never fought back, and I regret it every day. I'm not judging the peole who settled... it's a tough and wildly unfair situation. However, I suspect that they will find that the choice they made ends up costing them more than they thought.
Miko O'Sullivan
That bird wouldn't VOOM if you put 50000 volts through it.
Still, lovely plumage, the Norwegian Blue. Though I understand they tend to pine for the fjords.
/Brian
The plantiff says: "Some of you have read comments in this and other chat rooms to the effect I "sued for someone having posted critical comments about this business" or that customers are sued for voicing there opinions relating to the companies products or services. Not the true story! That is a "spin" the defense fund and their supporters would like to have you believe. It is in fact another lie by them. Their attacks, to champion themselves and to raise the profile of their cause so their proponents would keep financially supporting a supposed "successful" group. This would allow them to continue the concerted efforts to harm the company. Their ultimate goal is to raise money in their pursuit to harm." According to this guy they are all in on a conspiracy against his company. I love the line: "Their ultimate goal is to raise money in their pursuit to harm." I don't see how this could possibly be true given that he initiated the need for the fund when he sued them. Plus as far as I know all the money in the fund went to lawyers defending the plantiffs... not exactly harming him or his company.
The perswarehouse site still notes its Gomez certification. However, as of March 31, of this year, Gomez has figured out that it does not know how to or can't afford to certify merchants. As of April 1, Petswarehouse is using the Gomez trademark without permission. LOL. See Gomez note here http://gomez.com/certification/single_firm.asp?fir m_id=1507&industry_id=35
You mind working on 100% contingency? I don't want any money from this bozo -- I just want to deter people who consider the first amendment a legal technicality.
Web talk lands some in hot water
My favorite is the Long Island Business news article about how filing lawsuits is this guy's "hobby".
Chances are, they were just sabre rattling anyway and would have left you alone. But instead, you caved. And you, like so many others, have helped erode free speech for ordinary people.
I don't suppose I'd like to work for anyone with the title "the Destroyer."
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Where was the YRO story when they filed suit to stop the legal defence fund? This seems like a moster sized issue compared to some of the YRO stories. I most definitly want to know when steps are taken to see to it that not only is my right to free speach on the net infringed but to add insult to injury they wanted to stop the defendants from paying for a defence? Please let us know the next time insult is added to injury on free net speak.
Ascii artist &
They know where the little bastard lives and he didn't even suffer an unfortunate accident? That's sad.
Looks like his bulletin board is backup and running. He got /.ed yesterday and had to take it down.
You fail to recognize the truth of Free Speech, Free Speech is not CHEAP. Free Speech comes at a price and the company I represented, while acknowledging my RIGHT to state those things, would not go to court over it.
Your right to free speech is only a criminal right or have you not heard? You can get sued for saying things all the time. Since you said I erode your rights, I can sue you and you would have to prove it in order to show that you did not slander my good name.
You live in the Golden Times, where Gold means you have the Time.
Its very simple, If I had the money, I can keep the rights I have with a good lawyer. No one eroded the right, it still exists.. we just cannot afford to pay for our "FREE SPEECH"
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I submitted this story about 6 months ago and it was rejected. Clearly Salon has more influence than I do....
PetsWarehouse.com ATE MY BALLS!
You know... really stupid statements like this aren't really helpful to your case.
Anyone want to start a pool to guess on what date Mr. Novak will have to show up in court for a PWhse bankruptcy hearing?
I have to agree, it's sad but true.
Truer even, if you realize that the ultimate backing of laws is force. Those lawyers are really just negotiators for the mercenaries, but if you don't play along, even in an outrageous case like this, you could be bankrupt and without prospects when they're through with you.
There needs to be some way for people to defend themselves in these cases. I support the idea that the two sides be forced to pool money and share equally. That way you can't buy your way out in either case. Loser being forced to pay only up to double the ammount they put up... If A sues B, A puts in $5k and B puts in $50k, A should only be responsible for $10k, tops. (Otherwise you couldn't out-lawyer your opponent, but you could still hold the threat of huge legal bills, should they lose, over their head.)
If I cared as much as I probably should, you may have a point. I seriously doubt that their lawyer browses slashdot, but if he does, Hey!
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
To call and harass them would be wrong, yes. But to call them and calmly explain to the representative that spurious lawsuits and scare tactics have cost them a potential customer, as well as leading you to warn all of your friends against ever shopping there... That wouldn't be wrong. In fact, I think it's the "right" thing to do. If you have a problem with someone, tell them up front. It's a business issue, so using the business line is appropriate.
Just keep it honest, and non-harassing and it's a legit call. The fact that they can't be duping an innocent customer while taking complaints is just gravy... Really though, if this were a "bricks and mortar" store people could picket out front, there's no cyber-equivalent (except putting up opposing web pages) so this seems justified to me.
He does have a "brick and mortar" place: Pets Warehouse 1550 Sunrise Hwy, Copiague, NY 11726 Seems that he has disabled the link for the "Company Info" on a few pages. Wonder what that's all about?
You didn't mention that you represented a company. Still, I hope you left since they weren't willing to back you for being right. Caving as a corporation is just as bad as caving as a man.
Well, hehe... fair enough. :) It's your money. ;)
I seriously doubt that their lawyer browses slashdot,
Well I was thinking, even if he doesn't browse Slashdot normally, I would think he'd be reading this story. Slashdot has a lot of readers, and this was a relatively small story that suddenly got negative exposure on a fairly sizable site. In addition, if you're using the same email address for Slashdot and the besieged mailing list, it's very easy to just do a search on google for that address...
Ohh, no, I'm not beign sued by them -- someone else. I really don't mind getting sued again, was my point :)
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Of course I left! I found out though, what "party line" means in todays terms. You see, the real thing is that truth does not matter in the workplace, its the three letters: CYA (cover your ass).
What was interesting is I had 2 bosses back then, 1 was stating what I did was a PART of my job and if I had failed to do it, why was I there? The other was afraid of litigation and would not deal. Some boss way up made the decision.
I did not know that boss, and will not work for a company that I dont know the people making the decisions for me anymore. Think of all the Enron employees..
So the mantra: CYA and damn the torpedoes, you sink anyways.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
As I was driving home from work today I was thinking about making a banner that has a baby kitten (pet) followed by a person 'swearing' (i.e.: %$&@) followed by a house with money and the words 1st Amendment showing in the windows followed by a vacuum cleaner sucking up the house with the words petswearhouse on the hose being held by a man with the initials F.L.P. on the sleeve and $$ signs in the eyes. I'll put it as the entry page for the new petswarehousesucks.com site. Now, I would do this myself but an artist I am definitely not. If someone wants to do this or even do a Flash movie and donate it for the site you will be given full credit unless you wish to remain anonymous. Now that's COMEDY !!