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General Public Realizes KaZaa is Spyware

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the death-to-the-eula dept.

blankmange writes "CNet is reporting the slow dawning of the general public to KaZaa and spyware. "Virginia Watson unwittingly authorized a company she'd never heard of to install software that would help turn her computer into part of a brand-new network. The software, from Brilliant Digital Entertainment, came with the popular Kazaa file-swapping program. But the 65-year-old Massachusetts resident--who has a law degree--didn't read Kazaa's 2,644-word "terms of service" contract, which stated that Brilliant might tap the "unused computing power and storage space" of Watson's computer. " " Fortunately the helpful graph in the article compares the complexity of IRS tax forms with Brilliant's terms of use... guess which one is harder to read?

408 comments

  1. Too much Marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    In todays world, marketing and business is going too far.
    I hope news, irc and old protocols like that will survive to the flaming of capitalisme.

  2. And the public cried... by The_Pey · · Score: 1

    "Huh? - Can they do that?"

    It only goes to show that you should read everything before you sign it. This is similar to discovering on your car lease that the company reserves the right to use the car when you aren't.

    --
    Hmmm...
    1. Re:And the public cried... by anonymouZ+coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When you lease a car, you don't own it. The lease company does. They can do whatever they want to with the vehicle as long as they disclose that up front. If you sign the lease without reading the fine print, that's your fault. Now granted, I think software companies are trying to snowball consumers by throwing multi page EULA's at them and burying the scary stuff. All the more reason to only use GPL software. I'm afraid to even boot my Winblows box without running Adaware right away.

    2. Re:And the public cried... by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Of course, the whole point of the article (if you've read it, though I'll guess that you haven't) is that the complexity of most EULAs are absurdly difficult : The type of convoluted, circular, impossible to read verbage that virtually no one could read through and understand even if they were truly committed to reading the EULA for every single piece of software that they installed.

      Personally, I think that there should be basic laws governing software just as there are in the rest of society (i.e. There is a 20 page EULA every time I go to a variety store and buy a can of coke, because there are certain expectations and societal and legal standards that govern the experience : i.e. Drinking a coke doesn't make them own my liver) : For instance, no software can communicate over the internet without explaining, in simple English (not intentionally vague legalize) why it is doing it, and who it's really benefitting.

    3. Re:And the public cried... by Spankophile · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It only goes to show that you should read everything before you sign it. This is similar to discovering on your car lease that the company reserves the right to use the car when you aren't.

      I've always wondered if the "click if you agree" thing is enough. I remember learning once in my highschool law class that when it came to contracts etc, both parties had to fully understand the extent of the wording - in order to protect people from "fine print" trickery.

      It would seem to me that these over-complicated EULAs are an attempt to either confuse users, or get them to click "Agree" without understanding the terms.

      If I "trick" you into signing something, you should still be legally protected. Granted of course that you can afford to take it to court.

      But that's what class action suits are for right?
      IADNAL (D==Definitely)

    4. Re:And the public cried... by The_Pey · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you read many of your EULA's carefully, you'll find that you have a right to use the software, but you don't actually own the software... Really depends on the software company, but this is fairly common.

      --
      Hmmm...
    5. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It only goes to show that you should read everything before you sign it.

      Did you even read the article? Obviously not...

    6. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      It only goes to show that you should read everything before you sign it.

      Read article -> Comprehend -> Post

    7. Re:And the public cried... by dmarien · · Score: 1

      I was cruised through the GPL. And that same license has been the only license attributed to all software i've installed in the last year or so.

      What might be worth considering, is a generic software application installation license that governs what software is allowed to do to your computer, and what your computer is allowed to do to the software. If the developer or publisher of the software has any additional terms, they must be appended and marked at the bottom of this generic EULA. This could cover every piece of software, reducing the size of most software's EULA.

      --
      dmarien
    8. Re:And the public cried... by inKubus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Boo hoo, the poor public. If they cared enough about their computers and what was happening to them they would learn it. THEY DON'T CARE. THEY DON'T READ SLASHDOT. THEY DON'T SPEND 8 HOURS A DAY SURFING THE WEB. I think it's fine to exploit consumers weaknesses like this. Every other industry does, why shouldn't software?

      There is not a box on the front page of the New York Times that says "Certain stuff written in this paper is false." Normal people assume everthing in there is true, and smart people know to take it with a rock of salt.

      The same with computers. People SHOULD just assume the software works and is safe, and if you're smart, you won't and you will read the EULA.

      Then, when the conseqences occur, hire a professional to fix it. If people shouldn't be expected to learn, why should we be expected to protect them out of the goodness of our hearts? I am a home computer "consultant" and I make good money fixing people's computers. People who don't give a flying F what's running on it, so long as they can look at their porn and write their emails and print their Word docs. People who screw up their computers and are totally fine with paying someone to fix it. Real consumers. Realists. Not cheapskate wannabe good citizens who like to spout off about "protecting the consumer". You've obviously never had a real job or you'd know there are no friends in business.

      So, I'm glad companies take advantage of consumers, and I'm glad computers screw themselves up. Because it gives me a job. Don't try to take it away from me.

      Cheers.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    9. Re:And the public cried... by Saib0t · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I've always wondered if the "click if you agree" thing is enough. I remember learning once in my highschool law class that when it came to contracts etc, both parties had to fully understand the extent of the wording - in order to protect people from "fine print" trickery.

      This raises an interesting question in my mind. My mother tongue is french, I have enough technical knowledge of english to figure out what the menus of a program are and what the use of the program is. But I don't understand english legalese (nor french, for that matter). So would a court consider that they tricked me into clicking the I agree button by intentionaly obfuscating the agreement?

      You could of course complain that I should have clicked the "I don't agree" button then. But what in the case I give this software to my mother (who has no knowledge whatsoever of english), she tries installing the software and by trial and error, finds that the "I agree" button is the only one that installs the program. Can she still be considered tied by the "contract"?

      --

      One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
    10. Re:And the public cried... by burts_here · · Score: 1

      what amazes me is that people serisouly not to get ripped off, abused, taken advantage off and generally treated like crap by companys whos only reall point of exsitance is to make money...

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    11. Re:And the public cried... by dryueh · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Whoah!

      If reading Slashdot, surfing the web, and thinking newspapers are nothing more than corporate whores makes you a demi-god, then you take the cake!

      I wonder if these poor fucks to which you're referring bring any value into the world at all? After all, the internet, computers, software, etc all have intrinsic value, right? All other focus is folly.

      Sanitation engineers (that's right, garbagemen) probably exploit me in some way too...but I don't have a way to get that garbage away from my house (in the city) without their help. If I see my friend downloading and 'agreeing' to an obviously sketchy program, I'll probably tell him to think twice--cause I can help him out with places that I know a thing or two about.

      It's called 'learning'

    12. Re:And the public cried... by waster · · Score: 1

      If you don't agree, but still want to use the software, get your dog to click the 'I Agree' button.
      That way, you technically didn't install it, you get the use of it, and I doubt anyone will take your dog to court over its agreeing to an EULA.

    13. Re:And the public cried... by mpe · · Score: 2

      I've always wondered if the "click if you agree" thing is enough. I remember learning once in my highschool law class that when it came to contracts etc, both parties had to fully understand the extent of the wording - in order to protect people from "fine print" trickery.

      Wonder if anyone has tried an "envelope contract" on a software company and got it enforced..

    14. Re:And the public cried... by tenman · · Score: 5, Funny
      So if the contract of the lease specifies that they have "the right to access and use the unused horsepower and trunk space in your car/s and/or the highways for the aggregation of sales staff and use in distributed a convoy. The leasee acknowledges and authorizes this use without the right of compensation.", they can put a guy in a trench coat in the back seat, and a black bag in the trunk. Because I signed the agreement, i understand that they plan on using my car once I park at work.

      That's fine, but here is my issue.

      • Said man in trench coat gets pulled over (hacked).
      • Goverment offical searches contents of the car (computer).
      • Finds contraban and/or dismembered bodies in that bag in the trunk (childporn/warez/etc).
      • Government disables car, and then empounds it.
      • Leasing company doesn't have to "compensate" the leasee


      So you say "that would never happen", and I say take another look at the lows that internet companies will go to to turn a buck. especially companies that will use a another program to slip your install script onto users programs.

      Oh wait... I'll have to wait until "Brilliant Digital Entertainment" is done with my CPU to finnish this post....

    15. Re:And the public cried... by SlamMan · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but tthats why we have these pesky things called laws to protect us from a) companies, b) each other, c) our own ignorance. Cerrtain things in society you take on faith, like that fact that eacting a bowl of cheris in tthe morning won't cause spontaneous combustion in every person who eats it. This is why we have the sickinging amount of laws and regulations we have, to limit people from screwing each other over.

      --
      Mod point free since 2001
    16. Re:And the public cried... by elefantstn · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you want to convince a court that your knowledge of English is limited, I suggest you refrain from using phrases like "intentionally obfuscating the agreement."

      --
      If it ain't broke, you need more software.
    17. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Just out of curiousity: Have you actually seen a lease agreement that states such a ridiculous claim? The reality, of course, is that when you lease something you do effectively own it during the lease period : You "own" the portion of the vehicle which is used during your lease period. The only difference between classic "ownership" and lease "ownership" (owning is a vague term anyways. Here in Canada technically the "Crown" [the government] actually owns everything, really, and we're all just maintainers) is the former gives you residual value, whereas the second is specifically architected to pay just enough to have no residual value.

      When I lease or own a car, I am responsible for all car maintenance outside of warranty service. When I rent a car I just bring it back and it's out of my hands. Totally different.

    18. Re:And the public cried... by inKubus · · Score: 2

      True. Limit. But not prevent. I mean, no one would make any money if everything was fair. If it was FAIR, everyone would have the same stuff, and we'd all be Marxists.

      But that just doesn't work :) Some people are better suited to the enviroment than others; not that we shouldn't help the less fortunate. But it's ok to make a living also.

      NoBODY gets filthy rich being honest. I AM honest about my work. I tell people what their problem is because I'd rather not come back to fix a little thing 10 times, even if I'm making 75 bucks to do it. There's just no CHALLENGE to it.

      So maybe it's all a question of honor. I mean, without problems, I wouldn't have a job, so I like problems. But you can't take TOO much advantage of people. Then you start being evil.

      I've got my Karma to worry about :)

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    19. Re:And the public cried... by Saib0t · · Score: 1

      You definately made me laugh. Too bad I can't moderate in a thread I post in...

      --

      One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
    20. Re:And the public cried... by Combuchan · · Score: 2

      If you don't understand the EULA of the software, don't install it. Who's forcing you to put this software on your computer?

      Besides, shouldn't some warning bell be going off in your head if the legalese in the EULA is overly obfuscated?

      Ask yourself: What else could this incoherent block of text mean other than what am I inferring it to be? What are the Company's interests in my installing the Software? What is the ulterior motive? What did I just read? What is the point of each and every single section of text?

      --
      "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
    21. Re:And the public cried... by lunky · · Score: 1

      The UPS guy comes to the door and asks you to sign for a package. You sign for it and inside is a letter that says, "Now that you have agreed to give us your unborn child..." You scramble to find the paper you just signed and find that everything seems in order, and that you just agreed to give UPS your firstborn.

      I'll wager you don't read everything you sign, "smart people should" you say but you have realistic assumptions which are protected by the law. You are protected, regardless if you've had a "real job" or if you have any "friends", from people doing intentionally deceptive things to manipulate consumers.
      You are a twit for not realizing this, but this law will protect you nonetheless.

      ...oh yeah, and you don't have to fight consumer advocates, there will still be plenty of computer "consultant" work.

      --
      lunky> c++; lunky> do{;}
    22. Re:And the public cried... by inKubus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It's smart to ALWAYS know what you are signing for. Because you could be signing away the life of your child." That's what I get from this post.

      Not "everything should be spelled out in 20 different languages to be fair" "we should all get everything for free." "I'm a worthless communist" as you intended to say.

      I'm sorry to be acidic, but I never said I don't support consumer advocacy. I said I don't support LAWS governing what software CAN and CANNOT do. There are ALREADY laws prohibiting viruses and malicious, destructive software. Most people don't care if their spare computer cycles are used by some company if, in return, they get a good piece of software. And if it screws up their computer, they are happy to have it fixed.

      There does not need to be LEGISLATION in this matter. There needs to be education. People should not just download and run software from untrusted sites. EVERYONE knows that. So in this case, I do not shed a tear.

      No pity for the majority.

      Cheers.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    23. Re:And the public cried... by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most people don't care if their spare computer cycles are used by some company if, in return, they get a good piece of software.

      Then how about distributing the software with "price: The Idle time of your PC"? Why are these "ways you pay for the software" always hidden away, usually installed silently in the background, and controlled via a checkbox that was careful placed outside of the visible range on one part of a 30 part install wizard? The reality is that most of this insidious software doesn't state its true intentions, because they know if they did many people would forgo using it, but instead they put "FREE!" all over the product.

      There does not need to be LEGISLATION in this matter. There needs to be education. People should not just download and run software from untrusted sites. EVERYONE knows that. So in this case, I do not shed a tear.

      Uh, we're talking about mainstream, very popular software : Not software from warez sites. So if Netscape 8.2 read your financial information and sent it on to banks, that's ay okay?

      No pity for the majority.

      And you work in computer configuration and repair? I feel pity for your customers. I'll guess that you're the type of guy that always has the raised eyebrow, exclaiming about how dumb the average Joe is, while at the same time wallowing in your own ignorance.

    24. Re:And the public cried... by ergo98 · · Score: 2

      If you don't understand the EULA of the software, don't install it. Who's forcing you to put this software on your computer?

      Because extensive EULAs have become the norm, and even minimal freeware apps have 40 page licenses. If one local store started making you sign a EULA to shop there, I'd stop shopping there, but if they ALL started doing it then what choice do you have? It's at that point that legal protections are the balancing factor.

      Besides, shouldn't some warning bell be going off in your head if the legalese in the EULA is overly obfuscated?

      Ambiguity that is a fundamental aspect of language led to the creation of "legal-speak": A barely comprehensible, but understandable by lawyers, babbletalk that holds up in court, but has little meaning to the Average Joe that doesn't deal with it day in and day out. Obscurity is the norm in EULAs. The GPL states in 3000 words what I could easily reduce down to 3 sentences.

    25. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if your worried about karma, cut out the caps. I get mod occasionally and caps piss me off.

    26. Re:And the public cried... by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      what is NEEDED is a judge, a federal judge to rule that click through agreements are non-binding. Now I can hear the microsoft employees here screaming "OMG!!! the software industry will collapse!!" Lies....

      everything will operate as before, they will just have to make the lawyers screw the user another way.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    27. Re:And the public cried... by DrNibbler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes they own the software but _you_ still own the machine. If the software is doing something other then the intended purpose whether that's gatering data about you or turning your machine into a node in a distributed processing network you should know about it. In clear, plain English (or whatever your native language is). It should not be burried in a multiple page document that can be understood if you have a J.D.

      --
      Sean.OutaHere()
    28. Re:And the public cried... by bnenning · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If you read many of your EULA's carefully, you'll find that you have a right to use the software, but you don't actually own the software


      No, you'll find a bunch of words saying that the publisher claims that to be the case, but that doesn't make it so. Using software you have legally obtained is not a violation of copyright law, so you don't need to agree to a EULA. In fact, since a EULA (usually) gives you no rights that you didn't already have, it should be invalid on its face for lack of consideration. (IANAL, yada yada yada).

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    29. Re:And the public cried... by jgerman · · Score: 2
      Forget not knowing the language. What if I as a rule do not read little boxes that pop up on my screen. My procedure is to try clicking on the leftmost button (without reading it) if that doesn't seem to work start over and click the button next to that.


      The point is click through licenses have no way to prove that the person who installed the software read any part of the license, that anyone using the software clicked through the licens, or even that the person who installed the software is the person who is in charge of that particular machine. The click through license should not be a legally binding contract. It's whole basis is on assumed consent. I could have my kid install all my software, click through, and not be legally bound as a minor.


      If a software company wants to impose these ridiculous caveats on me, they should be required to get an actual contract, notarized, with my signature on it.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    30. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't agree, but still want to use the software, get your dog to click the 'I Agree' button.

      And go to jail for violating the DMCA.

    31. Re:And the public cried... by aozilla · · Score: 2

      what is NEEDED is a judge, a federal judge to rule that click through agreements are non-binding.

      I can see how EULA might not be fully binding, but they have to at least be able to limit liability. Without that ability there will be no free (aib) software. Certainly no peer-to-peer software (which by definition relies on CPU/bandwidth sharing) without a signed contract.

      --
      ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
    32. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      hahahahahhaa ahahahahhahaha ahhahahahaha ahahahhahah. If you're worried about karam, stop being so stupid. I 'get mod' occassionally, too, and idiots piss me off.

      p.s -- Learning to spell can help too.

    33. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the terms of service when you register your car with the State. You give up clear title and gave your car to the state. THE STATE OWNS YOUR CAR, you are only using it. That is why they can tax it. YOU GAVE IT TO THEM. Yes read the fine print, You will be very suprised to learn how come the US government can tax you. That is why the code is so hard to understand, they don't want you to realize what is actually making you liable for the tax. Read the source code (State constitution, federal constitution bill of rights) these are the contracts. See if you can see the logic errors. Ever hear a politican speak about the Republic..... Nope only a democracy. Why did they stop using the R word. It's in the details if you look. It's all part of the contract you agreeded to... did you read ALL the fine print?

    34. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Class action suite is for making attorneys rich. ALL LAW is for making attorneys rich. Three people will be paid in every court action. The Judge, Defendant's attorny, Plaintiffs attorney. That is how the system works. SOMETIMES someone else will get a little money too. But that is not what the system is designed to do. Common Law, admorality court... understand the difference and the system starts making a lot more since. It's a classic shake down by thugs after your money they just wear suites is all.
      But so do a lot of the mod.

    35. Re:And the public cried... by Kailden · · Score: 2

      The POINT is for all the license agreements and papers you sign in your lifetime, you better have a lawyer on retainer to review them all or your quality of life is gonna suck.

      --
      I need a TiVo for my car. Pause live traffic now.
    36. Re:And the public cried... by ahde · · Score: 2

      The most important thing to do is to click "I accept" or "next" or "continue" or "install" or whatever the button says without reading some legaleze bs. It isn't a contract and it isn't binding. Click-through and shrink wrap licenses aren't real and the fact that 99% of people ignore them should be enough case to invalidate them in court.

      Before you start worrying about "GPL" violations, remember that the GPL is protected by copyright law. The GPL protects redistribution. Anyone can download a GPL program for free and do whatever they want to it. They just can't redistribute it without agreeing to the GPL. Kazaa or anyone else can enforce the same rules.

    37. Re:And the public cried... by knewman_1971 · · Score: 1

      Oh wait... I'll have to wait until "Brilliant Digital Entertainment" is done with my CPU to finnish this post....

      You're localizing this post for Finland? (Sorry...couldn't help it...)

      --
      where is the "I feel for ya, but that's some funny ass shit" moderation?
    38. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can read their terms of use just fine, noticed, and disregarded those provisions because I don't use the program frequently enough to care.

      I find that their means of informing the public is quite sufficient, and that you, and people like you are more philisophically opposed with them tacking on something to their stealware that might make them money, than you're concerned with their terms of use.
      Your pseudo-populist rant doesn't carry any real merit; people need to read what the fucking agree to, or they get what they deserve. No one forces you to ignore their terms of use, agree to install a program, and then suffer from your own laziness.

    39. Re:And the public cried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's quite clear that you are not an attorney, there's no need for you to mention it.

    40. Re:And the public cried... by DrNibbler · · Score: 1
      Well here goes what little Karma I have...
      people like you are more philisophically opposed with them tacking on something to their stealware that might make them money, than you're concerned with their terms of use.

      Thank you for telling me how I feel ... ever consider a career as a therapist? You seem to think that you are qualifed!

      Personally I don't care about a company's business model. If Kazaar wants to go ahead and make money by using some of your processing power and lets you know it... God bless them, it's payment for their services.

      IANAL, but I have several friends who are. In a discussion on this topic a while back I learned that you can't include items into the boiler plate language on a contract that wasn't "reasonable and customary". Anything that falls into that category needs to be listed up front and prominately. Now is co-opting your computer reasonable and customary? I personally don't think so but, again, IANAL. Now sending data advertisments to your machine is not a problem, IMHO. Tracking your movements and using your machine w/o your permission is a problem.
      --
      Sean.OutaHere()
    41. Re:And the public cried... by lawyamike · · Score: 1
      There does not need to be LEGISLATION in this matter. There needs to be education. People should not just download and run software from untrusted sites. EVERYONE knows that. So in this case, I do not shed a tear.

      If there is no legislation on the matter, that doesn't mean that the Government will not intervene on behalf of those who claim to have been duped by a software developer or an ISP. There is no reason why a claim that an EULA or a TOS did not foreseeably permit its drafter to use one's computer in a certain way would not be resolved by the courts -- i.e., one judge, instead of many legislators -- under principles of common law -- i.e., amorphous notions that give that one judge a lot of discretion.

      If you think that less government intervention is preferable to more, then you might prefer that the Congress legislate on the matter, which could at least take the matter from the reach of state judges with parochial interests in podunk towns.

    42. Re:And the public cried... by masamax · · Score: 1
      EULAs have already been shown to be not really that binding. For example, a EULA cannot forbid you from doing something. It can't say "You can't use this piece of software as a frisbee" because it has no legal clout.


      It hardly matters much anyways. Spy ware is not *incredibly difficult* to get rid of, and I am fairly certain if this was taken to court, it wouldn't go in favour of the Spyware.

      Pssst... There are things that are legally binding that scam artists use called contracts that are reversed because people are getting scammed (READ: Taken advantage of, sort of like this situation).


      Now all we have to do is wait for someone with money to sue. Until then, deal :)

      --
      I like to kill your couch. HE DIED HARD! MOO.
    43. Re:And the public cried... by darien · · Score: 2

      > > No pity for the majority.
      >
      > And you work in computer configuration and repair?

      Actually, he seems to be in a German industrial band. "No pity for the majority" is the English translation of Kein Mitlied Für Die Mehrheit. Strange, and barely relevant, but true.

    44. Re:And the public cried... by Zod000 · · Score: 1

      Scary, I just finished downloading a KMFDM song from Kazaa as I read that. Freaky.

      --
      People seem much brighter once you light them on fire.
    45. Re:And the public cried... by aozilla · · Score: 1

      EULAs have already been shown to be not really that binding. For example, a EULA cannot forbid you from doing something. It can't say "You can't use this piece of software as a frisbee" because it has no legal clout.

      That's usually true, but the question isn't whether an EULA can forbid you from doing something. The question is, can an EULA limit the liability of a company distributing software.

      Actually the first question is whether or not someone distributing software for free should have any liability at all. I say they shouldn't, but if you're going to say that they should, then you have to have some means for them to limit that liability. Otherwise we simply won't have free (aib) software any more.

      --
      ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
    46. Re:And the public cried... by plover · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I almost always agree with this particular argument. We almost never need new laws, we have plenty of old ones. But not this time. Here are some back-of-the-envelope computations I came up with for what Brilliant Digital is asking for when I click on "I Agree":

      First, unused cycles are ordinarily "optimized out" by my CPU. In other words, it runs slower and consumes less electricity when not being used. Most modern CPUs go into a low-power-consumption mode when not actively performing real processing. (If you doubt this, check your CPU temperature while it's been sitting idle with a blank screen for an hour or two. Compare that to the temperature after playing an hour of Quake III or even just running a graphics intensive screen saver for an hour. I know I could certainly feel the difference when I was running the distributed.net client at home. I just wish I had metered it.) So, I "hereby grant BDE the right to access and use the unused computing power" is another way of saying I will freely donate my electricity. Let's find out just how "free" that is.

      First, let's assume that I pay $.0816/kWh for electricity (the 1999 national consumer average (page 14).) Let's also assume that I leave the computer powered on constantly (because I do.) Finally, let's assume that my computer consumes 60W when idle, but 120W when actively crunching numbers (because it's an Athlon.) So that's an extra 60W/hr I would unknowningly consume on behalf of Kazaa.

      • 60W/hr x 8766 hours/year = 525960 watt-hours per year.
      • 525960 / 1000 = 525.960 kWh per year
      • 525.960 * $.0816/kWh = $42.91 per year.

      Look at it a different way: Assume there are 2,000,000 KaZaa users.

      • 60W/hr * 2,000,000 = 120,000,000 watt-hours.
      Thats 120 megawatts per hour. We're talking California-rolling-blackout-sized consumption of energy here. It's Environmental Impact Statement time.

      Is it still so unreasonable to ask them to say "Click here to agree with the above and oh, by the way, we're going to use about $40 worth of your electricity per year", or does something a bit more drastic have to happen?

      --
      John
  3. MS by polar+red · · Score: 0

    People should realize that EVERY MS product is spyware.

    --
    Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    1. Re:MS by galaga79 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      People should realize that EVERY MS product is spyware.
      While Microsoft doesn't having a gleaming reputation in these parts it's a big claim to say that all Microsoft products contain spyware. The only cases I have read is of Media Player and perhaps Product Activation but both of those are open to contestation. Plus the only spyware that Ad-Aware detects after a clean Windows 2000 install is some IE registry thing, whose name evades me but that is trivial in comparison to KaZaa.

      So until you back up your claim with some credible links I am skeptical.

      --

      aus.music.scrapbook
    2. Re:MS by polar+red · · Score: 0

      Didn't you notice all the security gaps in their prog ? Some of them are there for a reason. You don't seriously believe they are all unintentional ?

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    3. Re:MS by reptilian+biotech · · Score: 1

      It is called Alexa

      no idea what it does, but the windows spyware is not nearly the same beast that comes with limewire, kazaa, etc.

      You will see something is up when your browser starts retaining passwords and auto complete gets turned on by something other than your own clicks.

  4. but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What about Kazaa Lite?

    I know it's got all of the adware goarbage removed in it, but am I safe to say that it has that distributed computing component removed?

    1. Re:but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have kazaa lite as well, and that program still pegs my CPU at 99% usage when it's running. By the time I get around to debugging it and removing their "distributed.net" type code, I'm sure a new version will be out...

  5. service agreements? by dryueh · · Score: 4, Interesting
    "The question is not whether people read and understand (terms-of-service agreements)--of course they don't--but whether they can be enforced," said Cern Kaner, an attorney specializing in software legislation who teaches computer science at the Florida Institute of Technology. "I don't think that companies should have the right to spy on you without your actual permission, but I think it will be hard...to prosecute companies who do engage in this type of practice if you have actually clicked on an agreement that gives them permission."

    I'm wondering if anyone DOES know the legal implications of those service agreements. When those long agreements pop-up before installation, not only does no one read them, but you agree to the thing by clicking on either 'yes' or 'no' buttons....is a yes/no button a legally binding clause? They do not, at any point, get your signature nor is the agree monitored by anything other than the installation program itself (i'm assuming, anyway).

    I don't know...I'm curious..thoughts?

    1. Re:service agreements? by The_Pey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The other interesting case is where use of the software implies acknowledgement of and binds you to the service agreement. This case is one that happens without actually clicking on the "Yes / No" buttons. How legally binding is this?

      --
      Hmmm...
    2. Re:service agreements? by burts_here · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm wondering if anyone DOES know the legal implications of those service agreements the real question is wheather anyone who clicks on them is actually prepared to honour any agreements, i mean most of these companys are providing a sevice that is at best in the "grey" rea of the law, i dont think a lot of users read the acgreements simply because they *will* igonre them.

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    3. Re:service agreements? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Probably depends on the country. I'd expect Europe to be a lot harder on anything to do with data collection than the US since Europe has laws against unneccesary data storage. Failing to provide a convenient means to opt out, and also failing to provide adequate notice of the data collection could look bad for them.

      The US on the other hand has a generally strong cultural attitude to personal property. It may be seen as theft of your resources, although this is not that likely since the perceived damage would be quite small, and there is an agreement.

    4. Re:service agreements? by Tower · · Score: 1

      For all they can tell, a dog or cat walked across the keyboard and accepted the EULA... how binding is that... my dog isn't even 18 yrs old in dog years (11 weeks old today... almost 4-1/2 pounds). I think the click-through licenses have some minor issues ;-)

      --
      "It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
    5. Re:service agreements? by Xaoswolf · · Score: 1

      It is also not possible for a minor to enter into a legally binding contract without their parents. So when I was under 18, and I installed Doom, either I legally could not install it because I had to enter a contract to do so, or the contract that I entered into is rendered Null and Void.
      Perhaps this could be a way around pesky EULA's, just give you son/daughter the install disk, then leave the room. Come back later to find that the software has been installed, and that is was done by someone who the EULA wouldn't be able to legally bond to it, and since you didn't click 'yes' then it wouldn't apply to you too...

      --
      Xaotik Designs
    6. Re:service agreements? by burts_here · · Score: 1

      I'm worried that they might try and fix it though, just imagine clicking through... line by line... *shudder*

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    7. Re:service agreements? by junklight · · Score: 1

      >Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"

      you are clearly not doing it properly - I would be hoping for back in 5 hours at a minimum - back in 5 days would be MUCH better.....

      With some really good acid you could make it years...

      mark - avoiding writing a very boring report.

    8. Re:service agreements? by dryueh · · Score: 1
      hah!

      And then ground your kid for a week....just so it will stick in court.

      Dostoevsky is ashamed of you!

    9. Re:service agreements? by nege · · Score: 1

      exactly...what if someone went to your computer...or better yet used a MS backdoor to install a bunch of spyware that somehow cost you money or some other such thing. That yes no button in no way could be a legally binding doc.

    10. Re:service agreements? by CaseStudy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not exactly true. If you're a minor, you can opt out of a contract unless it's for essentials. But you can choose to keep the contract and bind the other party.

      If the parent's authorizing it, though (by giving the disk to install, and using the software), they're probably going to be bound (as much as anyone else, anyway) even if they get their 10-year-old to click on the agreement.

      (As usual, not legal advice or a recommended course of action.)

    11. Re:service agreements? by Software · · Score: 1

      The lawyer's website (and it's Cem, not Cern - silly C|Net reporter) contains some interesting links on UCITA, license "agreements", and other aspects of computer law. He also co-authored a very good book on software testing, Testing Computer Software.

    12. Re:service agreements? by aozilla · · Score: 2

      For all they can tell, a dog or cat walked across the keyboard and accepted the EULA...

      Thereby breaking the DMCA.

      --
      ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
    13. Re:service agreements? by argel · · Score: 1
      They do not, at any point, get your signature nor is the agree monitored by anything other than the installation program itself (i'm assuming, anyway).

      IANAL, but I imagine that it would suffice as a signature.

      I would be more curious to know what would happen if I printed out the license and crossed out the portions I objected to and then clicked "yes" to continue the installation.

      --

      -- Argel
    14. Re:service agreements? by blibbleblobble · · Score: 1

      At work, it can be good to make a point of reading them. If it says "GNU GPL" at the top, you can click ok and not waste anymore time, but if the program presents 10-pages (equivalent) of uppercase legalese inside a 3"x1" text-box, your employer needs to understand the additional effort it takes to install such products.

      Maybe you need to get someone in the company authorised to enter the company into legally-binding contracts to click the OK button?Whatever, it shouldn't be a "click OK regardless"

      Perhaps the "total cost of ownership" studies ought to reflect the time for companies' lawyers to read these things each time a product is installed.

    15. Re:service agreements? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I will tell you that a certain leading lawyer at EPIC told me that he never bothers to read the EULAs. So I guess in short, NOBODY really reads them. Think how many pieces of software are on an average computer and how many times you've read them. I have read one or two, just for personal research.

  6. Agreements by itsnotme · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Heck.. I like having the GPL or the PGPL and whatnot since its a standarized agreement and once you've read it once you dont really have to read it again because its the same agreement over again so its easier to think about whether you want to use it or not.. but the terms of service agreeements and whatnot are different that there's really not a standard.. and yet thats probably why almost nobody reads 'em.. here's a direct quote from the article:

    Although people regularly click on such agreements, few scroll through the verbiage. In a survey last month of 155 adults by Richardson, Texas-based consulting firm Privacy Council, 76 percent of respondents said they were "concerned" about having their privacy violated on the Internet. Only 22 percent admitted to reading privacy policies. Among respondents ages 18 to 25--a core constituency for file-swapping software--only 8 percent read the policy.


    Only 22% admitted to reading it! gee I wonder why.. that 10 page terms of use policy in windows 2000 was so frickng long and complicated that once you get past the 2nd page you just hit the pg-down button and hit the F8 to confirm afterwards after taking advil to try to forget that you even read it in the first place!

    Maybe they should do what newspapers do and dumb it down a bit so that it'd be shorter and a easier read then more people would be better informed..
    1. Re:Agreements by dryueh · · Score: 1
      Maybe they should do what newspapers do and dumb it down a bit so that it'd be shorter and a easier read then more people would be better informed..

      Yeah! With big colorful pictures! Go USA Today!
      ...wait...The Wall Street Journal has color too?

      I wish the M$ service agreement was dictated to you entirely by that charming little paperclip thing...then I'm sure everything would be crystal clear.

    2. Re:Agreements by itsnotme · · Score: 2
      I wish the M$ service agreement was dictated to you entirely by that charming little paperclip thing...then I'm sure everything would be crystal clear.


      No.. there would be a rise in the suicide rate after people realized they couldnt get hte damn paperclip to shut up while installing
    3. Re:Agreements by tps12 · · Score: 2
      taking advil to try to forget

      In our society, it is traditional to use spirits for this purpose. Advil is normally utilized as a pain reliever, though alcohol functions quite well in this role as well.

      --

      Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
    4. Re:Agreements by analog_line · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I feel little sympathy for people "burned" by click-through stuff. If you're not willing do deal with the possible consequences, and you don't want to read the agreement, don't click "I Agree". If you click "I agree" you've got a shaky case because you allowed whatever to be installed on your machine.

      Let the buyer beware. If you sign on the dotted line or click on the flashing button, you are assumed to have done your damn homework. If you haven't, you and only you are responsible for the problems it causes. It's common sense, people.

      Oh wait, I forgot. Common sense is stuff that everyone says, but no one actually believes. I forgot.

    5. Re:Agreements by Zone5 · · Score: 1

      I can't argue with that, O Defender of Common Sense, but it's also common sense that if you're going to be inflicting something someone generally will NOT want upon them as an adjunct of an agreement, you should make it CLEAR to them that you're doing it so they can a) intelligently opt out, or b) decide to accept the consequences. In either case, you have a satisfied customer (or non-customer) rather than an irate one down the road. The point is that intentionally HIDING non-obvious downsides by burying them in legalese is not a forthright thing to do. Yes people should know better, but companies do have at least some obligation to behave themselves too.

      --
      "So on one hand, honey is an amazingly sophisticated and efficient food source. On the other hand it's bee backwash."
    6. Re:Agreements by analog_line · · Score: 2

      kThat's not common sense, it's common courtesy, there's a difference. And the only real way to enforce common courtesy is avoidance of those who don't practice it.

      If someone is a jerk, if you want to avoid problems, don't deal with them. If someone is trying to snow you with mounds of legalese in a user agreement that could contain the gods know what, don't install their software. That's common sense.

      And I'm no defender of common sense...common sense is common sense whether people follow it or not. I just find people who completely ignore it, and then complain about it, pretty damn pathetic.

    7. Re:Agreements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually a bit too late by the time you get to read the EULA though isn't it? You've already bought the software. Perhaps software companies should be forced to put it on the packaging. I'm sure it would soon become:
      a) Smaller
      b) Less jargon heavy
      if a company had to spoil the look of the packaging with all of that stuff (note, I'm thinking of Microsoft in particular here).

  7. Not Surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think most of us who use Kazaa or Morpheus have known this for quite sometime already ..

  8. Those Poor Normal Users by inKubus · · Score: 3, Flamebait

    I am glad that I do home computer consulting for a living. There are so many idiots out there who just install whatever software they find without knowing the facts. And I'm glad that most of the facts are only availible on obscure sites until most people have already been hurt. I LOVE AMERICA. I am glad that companies to stupid stuff like this to hurt consumer's PCs. Somebody has to fix the damage, therefore it translates into MONEY for me ($75/hour).

    I am no troll. This is the truth. It's not very nice, but look at how much a body shop charges. Or a plumber. People don't want to be protected. They do not want knowledge. They want to make mistakes, and they want to pay to have them fixed.

    God Bless America.
    Cheers.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
    1. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've posted this twice, you redundant bastard. Wish I had mod points.

    2. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "I am glad that companies to stupid stuff like this to hurt consumer's PCs. Somebody has to fix the damage, therefore it translates into MONEY for me ($75/hour)."

      I hear you, man. I am a student and pay for my textbooks this way.

    3. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by inKubus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      he's basically someone who's only skill is that he has a slight bit of knowledge ver the average computer user and feels he needs to charge ridiculous prices for his *ahem* expertise. Try doing real work with computers for a living.

      Hey, I just like the BMW. A LOT. I could be coding device drivers, but I prefer to have sex with girls. Being a computer "doctor" lets me work doctor's hours. And I can take a vacation whenever I want.

      Personally, if you're not happy, then what the fuck is the point of existing? Coding device drivers does not make me happy. It can be interesting, but for about 24 hours straight only. I prefer to keep my sanity. So I fix stupid Windows problems? Does that make me not "l33t"? FUCK YES. Do have have an easy job? FUCK YES. Do I love my life? FUCK YES. You may answer these questions differently for yourself, but I am happy where I'm at and no ANONYMOUS COWARD can knock me off my pedestal.

      BTW, got my +1 bonus today, so I'm just abusing it a bit to get my voice heard just this once.

      Cheers.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    4. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Picass0 · · Score: 2

      I am glad that I do home computer consulting for a living. There are so many idiots out there who just install whatever...

      I bet you don't get too many call backs with your arrogant attitude. People can tell when you hold them in low regard, and they usually return the favor.

      Most of these people you're helping are not idiots, just beginners. Unscrupulous companies are taking advantage of them. Your bad ethics aren't making things any better.

      When I gave my wife her first computer she was on a web site and called me to ask for help. A banner ad designed to look like a Windows alert message was telling her that her Internet connection was "too slow, do you want to upgrade?" I told her that was an ad and to ignore it. She then asked how she was supposed to know that and I couldn't give her a simple answer. She was right, it was a trick. In the end, I told her that some things just come with experience.

      The general public is going to slowly wake up to punitive and immoral EULA over the next few years. In the meantime, you might try behaving like a professional. The world has enough self-important experts. Wanna be a good American? Try helping someone for a change.

    5. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by CaseStudy · · Score: 1, Troll

      Thank you for making lawyers look good.

    6. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by bigmouth_strikes · · Score: 1
      I'll bite that bait.

      People don't want to be protected. They do not want knowledge. They want to make mistakes, and they want to pay to have them fixed.


      That may be true for you, but that is not the true for "people". "People" want to trust and that is the bottom line. They need to trust that the service they get is professional, whether it be from their plumber or computer technician. Most people have more important things in life - families, jobs - than caring about details about commodities like plumbing, cars and computers. And they should.

      Trust is an important factor in the service industry and that is what Internet is about for most people. They have no experience with the online world, and therefore asume that the same rules apply as in the real world. EULA's aren't made for people to read, and there's is no way that Jane and John Doe is going to start doing just that.

      It is an indication of an unmature an skewed industry when people have to be computer-savvy in order not to get ripped-off. Imagine if by buying hamburgers at a drive-thru you unknowingly agreed to have gas pumped out of your car ? I doubt that idea would fly.

      So get off your high horse and start acting like a responsible person instead of calling people idiots. It's not the general public that are idiots, it's the ones designing computers, programs and websites that ordinary people can't use that are.
      --
      Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
    7. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      I fix computers for a case of beer (=24 beers). I have a good job, why would I rip off people?
      This evening I'll be fixing the computer of some granny that just needs Word and a Bridge game. Honestly, I don't know where that computer has been, but it was in a terrible state. Virus definitions not updated in 54 months, I kid you not....

    8. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Cirrocco · · Score: 1

      And why shouldn't the guy have an arrogant attitude? He learned how to use the computer; why shouldn't anyone else? This guy probably goes around, daily, trying to show people how to avoid the problems they're currently having. But those people don't listen, more than likely, and he has to come back again. It's the same thing as most people here on Slashdot trying to tell people to use *nix, but nobody ever listens. But we're smug about it because we're the few that know better, right? Poor, dumb sons-a-bitches..."The world has enough self-important experts." Heh...we here on Slashdot are well-qualified to know, aren't we?

      --
      Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
    9. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I gave my wife her first computer she was on a web site and called me to ask for help. A banner ad designed to look like a Windows alert message was telling her that her connection was "too slow, do you want to upgrade?" I told her that was an ad and to ignore it. She then asked how she was supposed to know that and I couldn't give her a simple answer. She was right, it was a trick. In the end, I told her that some things just come with experience.

      This one is easy. A real W$ alert box won't scroll away in a browser.

      ac

    10. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Zone5 · · Score: 1

      If all the payment you ever get is beer, you sound like you have a very limited diet. I hope to hell you're getting Guinness, so that you can at least get your daily recommended dose of vitamins, minerals, protein, carbohydrates, and that nice "I just ate a brick" feeling of fullness.

      --
      "So on one hand, honey is an amazingly sophisticated and efficient food source. On the other hand it's bee backwash."
    11. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1
      Read again: I have a good job. I don't have to worry about my food, I can pay it anyway (and I can pay my own beer). I fix computers in the evening...for fun. I like to help people and I would do it for free, but most people don't like the thought of someone working a few hours because he likes it. They always want to give me money, and back in the days when I refused they never dared to ask again. (even when having problems) The workaround I found a few years ago is asking a case of beer: people feel as if they "paid" me, and I know they paid me much less than if they had given me a 50$ bill in the hand.

      And I don't like Guinness...

    12. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Picass0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This one is easy. A real W$ alert box won't scroll away in a browser.

      In this case, you are correct, and I showed her how to slide the scollbar and watch the ad fall out of frame.

      But it is very simple to pop a real alert, a new window, or any multitude of other ways to trick an inexperienced user into installing software, joining a service, or disclosing personal information.

      I think it's important to keep the right attitude toward users who are learning to use computers. If we make people afraid to seek our help, we only have more work to do later when we need to re-build a system.

      The first message in this thread had a mocking undertone that I think is one of the reasons people have difficulty learning to use computers.

      I hate that type of elitism. It's one of the things that hold back Linux.

    13. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "People don't want their lives fixed; their dramas, their problems. Because what's left? The big scary unknown." --Chuck Palahniuk, Survior

    14. Re:Those Poor Normal Users by pod · · Score: 1
      But it is very simple to pop a real alert, a new window, or any multitude of other ways to trick an inexperienced user into installing software, joining a service, or disclosing personal information.

      I've never fallen for those fake alert boxes, mostly beause my Windows colour scheme is totally different. You'd thing that those things would by now at least have a graduated title bar to match the default in 98/ME/2000...

      The dead giveaway is the cursor as you mouse over the ad. However, it's relatively simple to change the cursor, make it not change into a hand over links. I'm surprised no one's done that yet, it would fool many people.

      The only saving grace is that even the popup veriety, while legit looking at first glance, quickly turns out fake as you start moving your mouse to it... it only takes a fraction of a second for this to click in your head... waaaait a minute!

      --
      "Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
  9. Yes Virginia by headchimp · · Score: 1
    There is spyware on your computer...

    ...Just as bad as those stupid popup ads trying to force a Gator install

  10. Kazaa Lite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Kazaa Lite is without spyware:
    http://www.kazaalite.com

    It replaces one of the spyware DLLs Kazaa requires with a do-nothing version.

    Dan East

    1. Re:Kazaa Lite by Kombat · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that? Have you seen the source code?

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    2. Re:Kazaa Lite by Marillion · · Score: 5, Funny

      Anyone else find it ironic that I visit the site and and a popup ad appears?

      --
      This is a boring sig
    3. Re:Kazaa Lite by Loligo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >Have you seen the source code?

      You are aware that the number of people that could tell ANYTHING from the source code is extremely small, right?

      That's always been one of the things that's bothered me - "Where's the source?!" I don't care, I couldn't do anything with it anyway. Neither could 99% of the people looking to use something like Kazaa.

      "But there are people that can!", you cry. Great. What makes THEM any more trustworthy?

      -l

    4. Re:Kazaa Lite by fishebulb · · Score: 2

      you can get the source code for the dll, it just returns different variables to check that it is intact, and should proceed

    5. Re:Kazaa Lite by oever · · Score: 1

      They've been cured quickly. Now it says:

      Warning: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site2/fst/var/www/html/nuke/pnado db/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 106

      Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site2/fst/var/www/html/nuke/pnado db/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 106
      mysql://kazaalite:@localhost/kazaalite_nuke failed to connectToo many connections

      --
      DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
    6. Re:Kazaa Lite by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • Kazaa Lite is without spyware

      So is any Gnutella client compiled from source. Plus, the network is non proprietary, so you won't have to change clients/networks/licenses every couple of months.

      Superpeering has helped give the Gnutella network a new lease of life, and there's a lot of content out there. The only problem is that asynchronous connections are taking their toll: last night I had 300+ files queued @ 0.0k/s. But that's endemic on any P2P network. Share your damn files! ;-)

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:Kazaa Lite by IgnorantKnucklehead · · Score: 1, Interesting

      While one person may find it a daunting task to look at the source and find malicious code in it with only one pair of eyes, many people reviewing/tweaking the same code are likely to stumble across the problem areas quickly.

      And what makes them more trustworthy? Absolutely nothing... Be paranoid... It's healthy... The whole world IS out to get you. :)

      But,I feel a whole lot better when source is available because I know that eventually someone who is experimenting with the code could uncover any nasty bits that are there and point them out to the rest of the community so we can check it for ourselves.

      All this spyware that has been circulating highlights the need for open source software. You have no idea what you're getting when you download a binary and neither does anyone else. Sometimes what you're getting is just a half step above a worm or a virus.

    8. Re:Kazaa Lite by cpuffer_hammer · · Score: 2

      But they can hire someone who can.
      Thats how programers will make money in a GPL
      world. There will be lots of work it just will be different work from the work people are doing now.

    9. Re:Kazaa Lite by issachar · · Score: 1
      yes, but the gnutella network still sucks.

      I use gnutella and spyware-free grokster. I really want gnutella to succeed, but it just isn't up to snuff yet. It's tolerable for small files, but if I want to transfer anything more than a couple hundred megabytes, it just isn't as good. I despise the spyware that comes with the fast-track network, but they simply do have a superior network. (And I'm not a good enough programmer to contribute to the gnutella code)

      --
      . --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
    10. Re:Kazaa Lite by alphaseven · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This will only work until whoever is behind Kazaa Lite gets greedy and decides to add spyware.

      You can't predict which program will pull the bait-and-switch anymore. A free filesharing program gets released, without spyware, then after I tell all my friends about it and they have a bunch of users they add spyware. Just like what happened with Limewire.

    11. Re:Kazaa Lite by mansemat · · Score: 1

      That's what happens when you set up your web server to allow for more HTTP connections than database connections.

      In the case of MySQL the max connections should be set 1 MORE than the number of HTTP connections you have configured in your Apache's conf file.

      --
      --
    12. Re:Kazaa Lite by 56ker · · Score: 2

      Ah - the /. effect - kills all known sites dead.

      --


      Video Game cheats, hints a
    13. Re:Kazaa Lite by wolfc · · Score: 1

      And the site has more ad-popups than you average porn site.

      --
      Not talking out of personal experience ofcourse. Ehrm...

    14. Re:Kazaa Lite by MMBKG · · Score: 1

      Actually, I just uninstalled KaZaA lite. You know why? I still found nice little "hidden" temp files in my shared folder, presumeably all ready to be sent to KaZaA HQ. It also still had pop-ups and would cause my computer to crash and reboot for no reason. It hardly did what was advertised, and I think I'll just stick to Gnutella-based Morpheus, because this is my last straw with the FastTrack/FasTrack network.

    15. Re:Kazaa Lite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably want it a little higher than just 1 more, to allow for crontabbed maintenance tasks and other db content automation. But, you're right, it should always be higher than max httpd connections.

    16. Re:Kazaa Lite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liar liar pants on fire. KaZaa lite doesn't have any spyware and it sure as hell didn't crash your puter. That was probably because you've been using warez. Or because computers just do that sometimes.

    17. Re:Kazaa Lite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yea. Forgot to say. You've probably got the spyware still left from the old KaZaa... it's really hard to dig out. Get newest ad-aware and something called Bdekiller. Uninstall doesn't do it.

      And the new morpheus has also got spyware I hear.

  11. It's been going on for ages by wackybrit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't see the big deal here. Software tries to get onto your computer all the time. What about Macromedia Flash? That'll install within the browser. Or how about those lame Comet Cursors? Ditto. Do I want either? No.

    It happens in the real world too. When you buy something at Circuit City, they'll ask you if you want this 'cover plan' or that 'insurance' blah blah.. and after standing in a lot of lines, I've noticed that people generally agree to these things without understanding what they are!

    Once I stook behind a guy who agreed to everything, signed all the papers, and then the sales guy said.. okay, that's an extra $45 please. The customer didn't realize what was going on and said 'No thanks' and left.. after holding everyone up in the line for 5 minutes filling all the forms out!

    So I don't really see a problem here. It's a form of idiot tax. It's harder to avoid all of the pitfalls today, but hey.. you gotta remain vigilent at all times.

    --
    mogorific carpentry experiments
    1. Re:It's been going on for ages by inKubus · · Score: 2

      Thank god someone agrees with me. Honestly, why should I waste my time looking after stupid consumers when I could be making money off them?

      *I* know how to protect my computer. The last thing *I* need is more laws telling me what I can and can't do. That just makes more jobs for lawyers. I'd rather the money goes into my home computer consulting pocket. :)

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    2. Re:It's been going on for ages by xarfel · · Score: 1

      Flash is hardly comparable to making your system a node in a distributed environment and using your precious resources. Most people are lacking resources anyway. Throw ads and pop-ups in my face all day long, I'll give you that; but using my resources??? hell no!

    3. Re:It's been going on for ages by drewcifer1 · · Score: 1

      lol. That's a great way to look at it. Idiot's make you money. Wow, you would be out of business if schools would actually educate people.

    4. Re:It's been going on for ages by shine · · Score: 0

      I've noticed that people even brag about getting the service plans. Financially you are better off not getting the plans and just paying for whatever repairs as you go along. Consumer reports says this and I believe it. The plans are offered to make a profit for the provider.

      A sucker is born every minute! Who said that?

      ~S

    5. Re:It's been going on for ages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And a third, spatially if not chronologically, idiotic post from the same asshole. This type of attitude has been repeated over and over in the past, guess what, it doesn't work. "Don't let the peasants learn to read, it keeps the nobles in power". Not that I consider a windows consultant like this guy to be part of the techno-elite, just someone hanging on the lowest branches of the tree.

  12. In other news... by ediron2 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    In related news, the internet is more than AOL and spam is bad. Our human interest story tonight is on how gullible people become when surfing the net and reading email.

    Why is it everyone calls us for technical questions but nobody has sense enough to trust us when we hit transitional topics like these. It's like the AMA being ignored on addiction and unsafe sex issues.

    Oh, yeah, I remember: because we don't spend any money lobbying, we're inscrutible and we have some rather extreme views.

  13. Has American marketing gone mad ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    is it only American companies that resort to these tactics of marketing or is it a worldwide phenomonon ?

    i mean 99% of email spam seems to involve an American company/person and now spyware, is this a cultural problem ?

    email WILL become unusable/impractical in 10 years because of spam, is software heading in the same direction ?

    whats next ?

    1. Re:Has American marketing gone mad ? by anonymouZ+coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure it's a worldwide phenomena but I think Americans pioneer the technology and the concepts, and it trickles down elsewhere. The problem is that Americans lack tact. We are consumed with this concept of "democracy" and we have been force-fed the idea that unrestricted "capitalism" is a synonym for "democracy". Therefore the idea that we would eliminate tasteless, overwhelming, privacy violating marketing is considered by many to be undemocratic.

  14. That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by arnoroefs2000 · · Score: 3, Redundant


    Get it here or here

    ---

    Extra Features compared to original KaZaA
    - No Adware
    - No Spyware
    - No banners
    - No bitratelimit for mp3 files
    - No irritating websites loaded into KaZaA
    - No crappy BDE Viewer
    - No f*cking Bonzi Buddy
    - Set up multiple users with the included PseudoTrack tool

    1. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by skilef · · Score: 1

      - No banners

      Can't say that for the site. Guess I'm overreacting.. :)

      --

      You do not exist. Go away.
    2. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > Extra Features compared to original KaZaA
      > - No Adware
      > ...

      Just two popup-ads on every single page. Thank-you-but-no-thank-you.

    3. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a popup?

    4. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Admiral+Llama · · Score: 2, Informative

      Popups? Go into Mozilla, under Advanced, and Scripts & Windows, there's a checkbox for allowing web pages to open up unrequested windows. Bye-bye popups!

    5. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by burts_here · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have kazza light to, just i used duct tape over the right bits of the screen, and i intstalled it on a P166 machine with a 300MB hard disc, hah try and steal my spare CPU time!

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    6. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "- No f*cking Bonzi Buddy"

      If you feel like a laugh, check out the Bonzi Buddy site. Just don't go there with IE - the last time I did, it tried to load that Bonzi TROJAN and install it automatically on my machine. (I am safe now that I use linux.)

      The scariest part is that some people actually love this steaming pile of sh*t trojan horse software.

    7. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by daviddennis · · Score: 2
      Ouch. That absolutely ghastly review of "him" was enough.

      He sounds just like Binky, the Office Assistant, as shown in one of my favourite cartoons of all time

      Can it be true that some people actually ... gulp ... like ... him?

      When I first saw him, I felt gripped by fear, fear that "The Paperclip Spy", as I called him, would be sending my deathless prose to Redmond for analysis. I knew that was an irrational thought, since they could send my stuff to Redmond even without a paperclip, but ... you get the idea.

      (Come to think of it, our otherwise very nice and sane accounting lady loves her cat version).

      D

    8. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by rgarcia · · Score: 1

      The install instructions (if you read them) say you should add this:

      127.0.0.1 www.brilliantdigital.com
      127.0.0.1 shop.kazaa.com
      127.0.0.1 www.bonzi.com

      ...to your hosts file, or else BDE will install itself when you fire Kazaalite up, because it goes to Kazaa's real start page, which installs it automagically. Hence, your pop-ups.

      --

      I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.

    9. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is kind of cute. I bet my girlfriend would like that. What is bad about it?

    10. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Cirrocco · · Score: 1

      That was a pretty glowing review for a little purple gorilla. I don't trust it one goddammed bit. Sounds like it was written by an ad-man.

      --
      Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
    11. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by MindStalker · · Score: 2

      Does anyone know how to block bonzi from contacting MS for updates or new ads or spyware or whatnot. The old women in my office won't stop installing him and get all pissed of if I talk about removing him. So wondering if I can just ring his neck?

    12. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you hear that whooshing sound? It's the noise a point makes when it shoots right over your head.

    13. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by boskone · · Score: 1

      Can another user identify you using a backdoor or is this truly anonymous?

      I know that Morpheus had an issue where there is an available port they can telnet to and get your user ID and whatnot.

      If it's truly anonymous and secure then dandy, otherwise, no thanks. I don't need a big lawsuit slapped on me someday.

      Out

    14. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "Does anyone know how to block bonzi from contacting MS for updates or new ads or spyware or whatnot. The old women in my office won't stop installing him and get all pissed of if I talk about removing him. "

      Just find a DLL somewhere that the Bonzi prog uses (and no other progs use!!) and change one byte in it so that the prog won't run. Then mark the DLL as read-only & system file so re-installs won't clean it up. It will look like the program is screwing up. Do this around the time of system updates so you can blame the update.

    15. Re:That's why we have Kazaa Lite! by Alsee · · Score: 2

      I know that Morpheus had an issue where there is an available port they can telnet to and get your user ID and whatnot.

      I was worried when I first heard about it, so I investigated. As far as I can tell it was a bunch of FUD. Your IP address is no secret - any communication on the internet has your IP address (even games), unless you use an anonymous relay. Every search result has a user psudonym on it, so nothing new there. And it reveals the list of files you chose to share - which is part of the normal search function.

      The only "back door" thing about it is that you could download from the net using a normal web browser rather than requiring special software. Neat feature - nothing evil there.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  15. An app to remove most spyware by SweenyTod · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's called AdAware, and it seems capable of nuking most nasty little apps installed by websites and applications like Kazza. Grab it here from Lavesoft USA and be very afraid at how many spyware components it finds!

    You should also download their reference file update utility too. This lets you keep up to date with the latest spyware programs out there.

    --
    Alas gallinaceas de urbe bovis volo
    1. Re:An app to remove most spyware by headchimp · · Score: 1

      Hmm...noticed that trying to download Adaware subjected me to even more ads and other popup annoyances...catch-22 I suppose

    2. Re:An app to remove most spyware by xarfel · · Score: 1

      I use this and it does a pretty good job, keeps you informed if nothing else.

      nice, simple lil' app

    3. Re:An app to remove most spyware by QuantumG · · Score: 2

      maybe I didn't experience this because I use mozilla and have the options set to not allow web sites to open unrequested windows, but I did notice the flashing "new" boxes. Annoying.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:An app to remove most spyware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      take a look at pestpatrol. And get rid of findfast, gawd, it's a divorce lawyer's meal ticket. get it at fuckmicrosoft.com

    5. Re:An app to remove most spyware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One caution: I ran AdAware after Kazaa 1.5something came out, and let it remove everything it found. Next time I launched Kazaa it said that a critical piece of Kazaa had been removed - please reinstall. So I think Kazaa is aware of AdAware, and checking that its core spymodules are present, or it won't launch (even if it doesn't *really* need them).

      Kazaalite hmmm?

      Paul

    6. Re:An app to remove most spyware by gordgekko · · Score: 1

      To deal with the pop ups and like, just use Proxomitron. You can find it at http://proxomitron.cjb.net.

      --
      You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
    7. Re:An app to remove most spyware by issachar · · Score: 1
      yes, you are missing a critical piece. but you can put in a fake version that piece and have it do nothing, but tell the software that it's working fine.

      Here's some instructions on how to do this with Grokster, (same network). The site says that it supposedly works with KaZaA, but I haven't tried it out. Just use grokster. Exactly the same network, so it's no biggie. (Those instructions are windows only though)

      --
      . --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
    8. Re:An app to remove most spyware by sewagemaster · · Score: 1

      make sure you download the newest update. this one removes BDE components as well.

      --
      my blog
    9. Re:An app to remove most spyware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does Lavasoft make money off of Ad-Aware despite the fact that it is free? I wonder how much they have made due to KaZaA alone. KaZaA seems like the most popluar spyware application ever, and it's getting a lot of bad press lately.

    10. Re:An app to remove most spyware by djneko · · Score: 1

      The only problem with that is when it removes the spyware Kazaa refuses to function until you reinstall Kazaa.

      --
      `/\/\
      (^.^)
      (")(")
      not quite an analog pussy, just a cat that plays with vinyl
  16. My favorite quote from the article: by zbuffered · · Score: 5, Funny

    Much as the avalanche of spam in the 1990s prompted action from legislators and regulators

    Yeah, I'm glad we got that taken care of back in the 90s...

    --
    Synergy is your friend
    1. Re:My favorite quote from the article: by cthulhubob · · Score: 1

      Sorry, got what taken care of in the 90s? I wasn't paying attention because I realized I had to act NOW to get a free Penis Enlarger(tm)!

      Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling! What a deal!

      --

      In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!
  17. Eugh by The+Mainframe · · Score: 1

    I find it positively disgusting that these companies are installing this level of spyware on users machines. I mean, collecting demographics is one thing (obviously a massive invasion of privacy, but not really destructive) but stealing CPU cycles and hard drive space? I am appalled. Have these people no decency? My computer is my castle.. If I found out one day that a piece of software I'd just installed was allowing someone else to take control of my computer, I'd lose it.
    I don't know what needs to be done about this, but somehow these software companies need to be shown that this is not OK. Now that people are finding out, there should be a lot of bad sentiment around, and so hopefully these types of invasions will decrease in number.

    --
    --Bennett Prescott
    Former Lord Of Packets
    1. Re:Eugh by burts_here · · Score: 1

      Stealing CPU cycles and munching up hard disks, hmm sounds like my Copy of Office, maybe i should go read that licence again. *grin*

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    2. Re:Eugh by analog_line · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If your computer is your castle, YOU are the only person responsible for defending it, and YOU are the only person who is to blame when YOU install something without reading the license agreement.

      You, you, you, you, you, you, and only you.

      I install stuff from the internet all the damn time. I click through just like everyone else, but I don't complain that the devil made me do it. If its yours, take some responsibility for it. If you refuse to, then deal with it pal, 'cause only you are to blame. People don't say "read the fine print" because it's something nice to say. People say it because it's good advice.

    3. Re:Eugh by legojenn · · Score: 1
      I find it positively disgusting that these companies are installing this level of spyware on users machines. I mean, collecting demographics is one thing (obviously a massive invasion of privacy, but not really destructive) but stealing CPU cycles and hard drive space? I am appalled. Have these people no decency? My computer is my castle

      While I agree that this is crass and parasitic, I wonder why this is a surprise. These companies have made buckets o' cash helping us "steal" the works of "artists". Is it really any surprise that they would have turned on thier clients and tried to steal from them? This nonsense makes me glad I have never used kazaa and only used the Linux command line satellite. Jenn use your own words for the words in quotations "borrow, use, share, record companies, greedy agents etc"

      --
      I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
    4. Re:Eugh by gordgekko · · Score: 1

      Shh....you just espoused free market thoughts in that rant.

      --
      You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
  18. Just enlightened my neighboor by Sabalon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He got a new computer, got all excited about Morpheus and then they switched. Since then he hasn't been able to get anything to start downloading. So he was telling me he was going to install this Kaaza thing and try it, and asked me if I'd heard of it.

    As I explained some of the functionality surplus to him, you could see his jaw just dropping and dropping.

    But I betcha he'll still install it - cause he loves the CD burner he has and how easy it is to burn MP3's-> CDDA.

    1. Re:Just enlightened my neighboor by FourDegreez · · Score: 1

      Winmx is a decent alternative.

    2. Re:Just enlightened my neighboor by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Tell him to use GNUcleus, it's a really good file sharing program. Free, no ads, no spyware.
      I try to educate people about spyware too, but most tell me they don't care... It's really annoying when you explain it to the details and finally the person you tried to educate tells you: but I don't mind the ads. I didn't bother and let her do whatever she wanted.

  19. don't care about the 'hidden network'.... by reaper20 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I care that this bde stuff is bringing w2k/xp machines down to a grinding halt in fugly ways.

    Ad-aware is getting used more and more in my toolkit. I sure wish Norton/Macafee/whoever would just go ahead and add crap like this into their AV software. This garbage is a "virus" in my book.

    1. Re:don't care about the 'hidden network'.... by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 2

      Ad-aware is getting used more and more in my toolkit.
      Amen to that, I run Ad-Aware once a week on the lab I administer, spyware bogs down those PC's like nothing else.

    2. Re:don't care about the 'hidden network'.... by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Your book doesn't have very good definition. cp cp tmp is a virus too.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:don't care about the 'hidden network'.... by dzym · · Score: 2

      Probably not as bad as new.net, mind you... I just gave a deep discount to a co-worker for cleaning her computer up. The amount of nastiness left on that computer before she brought it to me prevented an upgrade to IE6 and broke the start-up process, leaving it in a totally unusable state. And she had to get files on the machine back, no backups to restore from. So I had to go the long way around and clean it all up manually. Ugh. new.net, bde, 4 different instances of gator, the list goes on and on and on. On the other hand I also trained her to use ad-aware. So hopefully that won't be a recurring issue.

  20. Tax forms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Come on.. IRS tax forms aren't that bad..
    Sure a lot of people have problems with them:
    a lot of people can't read bus time tables either.

    I honestly don't think the IRS are out to make things as difficult as possible..

    Now EULA:s on the other hand, are written in pure, unadulterated legalese,
    by lawyers for lawyers.
    You can't really expect your average Joe to read or fully understand those things..

    1. Re:Tax forms.. by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      Come on.. IRS tax forms aren't that bad..

      And to top it off, they compare it to the 1040EZ, which is a snap to complete. Rather than spending the average 28 hours on completing tax forms, those that qualify for the EZ can usually finish their federal taxes in less than half an hour.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    2. Re:Tax forms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just use TurboTax. It just asks the simple questions, prepares the forms, and files them electronically so I can go back to trying to earn my 70% income that doesn't go to the government.

    3. Re:Tax forms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I just use TurboTax.

      Me too, but I probably wouldn't bother if I were just filing the EZ form. It would take longer to install the software and answer the questions than it would to just fill out the form and make some copies. Actually, I get to use a tax service this year because my returns are complicated by a six-month assignment in Germany.

      --GreyPoopon

  21. Hard to read? by vlag · · Score: 1

    I don't care if the EULA is written in hieroglyphics, there is nothing harder to read than those tax guides. Even the simple ones that make it AOL-easy. I say that people who don't even glance over their EULAs are getting their fair due. They're getting a pile of free stuff anyway; so what if some tech company actually tries to turn a profit.

    --
    Do you want to remove linux?
    1. Re:Hard to read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> I don't care if the EULA is written in hieroglyphics, there is nothing harder to read than those tax guides.

      Ya know, the fed forms aren't really that bad -- and I file 1040A with many schedules.
      I had to file two sets of partial year resident state tax forms this year because I moved. It was so weird, one of the instruction sets was straight forward and explained what was going on. The other was a disaster, consistently using detailed terms without definition -- if there were such a thing as a gce English compiler it would have probably have died with a "confused bailing out".

  22. Why is this so difficult? by kvn299 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm so glad these guys are getting pounded for this. It's pretty amazing how many news outlets picked up on this story. Unfortunately, there are many many more situations like this that are overlooked.

    I really don't have a problem with companies adding extra programs into their software. The problem I have is 1) Not being told about it and 2) Not being given the option of opting out or not installing it.

    As far as I'm concerned, a license is not an appropriate place to inform the user of third party software coming along for the ride. Software should be very explicit during install exactly what's happening. That way, the user can either not install the program, or if allowed, not install that component. What's so hard about that?

    The fact that these companies try to hide this stuff shows they know the systems are a bit shady.

    Strangely enough, this happens with big-time commercial software as well. I was pretty p*ssed when Intuit's TurboTax installed Internet Explorer on my laptop without asking. It just told me, "Installing IE 5.5 now" with no cancel button. I had 5.0 installed and it was there for a reason. Oh, well.

    Hopefully, awareness of these practices will hurt companies who will entually find it beneficial to be up front with their customers!

    1. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It just told me, "Installing IE 5.5 now" with no cancel button. I had 5.0 installed and it was there for a reason. Oh, well.

      That's why you pay for the Microsoft Tax, so you can get free upgrades.

    2. Re:Why is this so difficult? by inKubus · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Hey, want a bit of advice? DON'T DOWNLOAD AND INSTALL SOFTWARE FROM THE INTERNET if you are afraid of getting jacked! DUH! The last thing we need is MORE LAWS taking this shit into courts for computer ILLITERATE LAWYERS AND JUDGES decide what PEOPLE WHO ARE SMART ENOUGH TO BE CAUTIOUS WITH THEIR COMPUTERS can and can't get.

      If people were smart enough, they would just download open source software, examine the code and compile it themselves. But if you are too LAZY to do that, don't put the blame on some company who's just trying to make a buck or two.

      Some people's children. :)

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    3. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Geordon · · Score: 1

      Strangely enough, this happens with big-time commercial software as well. I was pretty p*ssed when Intuit's TurboTax installed Internet Explorer on my laptop without asking. It just told me, "Installing IE 5.5 now" with no cancel button. I had 5.0 installed and it was there for a reason. Oh, well.

      Uh, if you had payed attention to the install windows, it SAID that TT required some things that 5.5 has. Plain as day, it said that it had to install IE 5.5. You could probably have cancelled at taht point and tried to return the software. Remember, Intuit has a web-based Turbo Tax, as well as the local-install version.
      --
      It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire
    4. Re:Why is this so difficult? by AvatarADVathome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's an even better idea! DON'T BUY A CAR if you don't want to have tracking devices in it! It says that there is one right there in page 15 of your loan agreement, and big deal if it calls the cops every time you speed! People already know that they're in there and if you're too stupid to have known yourself, tough!

      If you are smart enough, you'd buy your own car parts and assemble your own car. But if you're too lazy, then you can't complain when a car company tries to make an extra buck or two from the government...

      Moron. I don't build cars for a living and neither do I code.

    5. Re:Why is this so difficult? by inKubus · · Score: 0, Troll

      Then you don't deserve a wonderful program like Kazaa without spyware.

      Cheers.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    6. Re:Why is this so difficult? by sammy+baby · · Score: 0

      Ooh! This is fun. Can I play too?

      (ahem...)

      Goddamn liberals want to make laws for everything! And while we're at it, don't make laws prohibiting hidden cameras inside hotel suites! After all, you checked into the room, and the fact that your activities in your room were all recorded - including that romp with that beat-ass hooker you picked up at your last trade show - was clearly mentioned in paragraph fifteen of the "In Case of Fire" instructions in your room! To make sure you didn't miss it, we even inserted a reminder just before the book of Deuteronomy in the bible thoughtfully left by the Gideons! Stupid fucking whiners are too dumb to rent a room!

      Okay, someone else?

    7. Re:Why is this so difficult? by osgeek · · Score: 1, Redundant

      The fact that these companies try to hide this stuff shows they know the systems are a bit shady.

      Yeah! What's this world coming to when you can't trust an outfit who puts out software designed to pirate copyrighted content?

      Next thing you know, you won't be able to trust the ingredient label on the back of a bag of pot!

      --
      Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
    8. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Andrewkov · · Score: 1

      Programs like Kazaa are not free in sense that we in the Linux comunity mean by free. There are strings attached. That's why it's in the license agreement. Plus nobody reads those things anyway! ;-)

    9. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Kombat · · Score: 1
      If people were smart enough, they would just download open source software, examine the code and compile it themselves. But if you are too LAZY to do that [...]

      This viewpoint is much too simplistic. You can't seriously expect everybody with a computer to get that involved. Why should they? It's an appliance, a tool. Do you expect people to get intimately familiar with the firmware in their microwaves? Then why should they invest the tremendous time and effort to comprehend their computer's operating system?

      Sure, you find OS source code interesting, and so do I. But not everyone does. Some people like overhauling the engine in their truck, rather than just taking it to a mechanic. Am I "lazy" because I'd rather spend some time with my wife than master my car's ignition system? No. I just have different priorities. And there's nothing wrong with that.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    10. Re:Why is this so difficult? by fishebulb · · Score: 2

      we do need laws occasionally. but they need to be good thoughtout laws.

      There is nothing wrong with a law to prevent (and in this case companies) from doing certain things.

      The problem is that laws are used to "solve" everything.

      But they still can be applied properly when the time is taken to implement them the right way and for the right reasons

    11. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The problem is that laws are used to "solve" everything.

      Like the saying goes, "If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

    12. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Analog+Penguin · · Score: 1

      Because not everyone has time to learn how to examine thousands of lines of code and determine what the program does. As is often pointed out here on /., this is not laziness. This is efficiency in society. To use the tired old car analogy: do you know how to examine an engine and tell if it works as the manufacturer says it should? Chances are you don't. Therefore we must rely on the integrity of experts. There's a level of trust inherent in any transaction, and it would be nice if companies would not violate this.

      What's that you say? Not going to happen? Of course it's not. So yes, the average person does have to protect themselves. Say you have Joe Schmoe, who is not an expert on cars. Say Joe has heard about some neato new tire that everyone uses, and he'd like to get in on it. Let's also say that these tires have an inherent design flaw that is not too widely known, and his friend Jim Schlimm, who IS a car expert, starts warning him against the dangers.

      "Don't do it, Joe," he says. "The torque on the axles caused by the design of the second layer of rubber can cause separation if the heat index rises about 50 when you go over 60 miles an hour" (technical details conveniently made up).

      Now Joe is going to stare at Jim in total incomprehension and go ahead and buy the damn tires anyway, because no average person could reasonably be expected to understand what Jim said.

      Yes, technically Joe could have saved himself the trouble if he had known what Jim was talking about. But Jim needs to take some of the fault for not even bothering to frame the information in a way that any average person could understand.

      Now suppose that Jim, instead of that idiotic description, says "Hey, Joe, you shouldn't buy those because they explode if you drive too fast" and Joe still ignores him because it's too hard to understand what he's talking about. THAT's idiocy. And there is plenty of that going on. But to assume one or the other is ALWAYS the case is even bigger idiocy.

      So if you warn the "lusers" that that nifty new software can mess up their Windows Registry and allow hackers a back door on port 80 that would allow them to run executables and make use of your bandwidth and processor cycles for DDoS attacks on servers the world over, maybe they're not the problem :)

      On the other hand, if you say "that software can allow unauthorized access to your computer" and they still refuse to understand, flame away :)

    13. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you had paid attention in school, you would know that the past tense of pay is paid.

    14. Re:Why is this so difficult? by Rakarra · · Score: 2
      If people were smart enough, they would just download open source software, examine the code and compile it themselves.

      Man, what a huge backwards step that would be for society. One of the biggest reasons for using a computer in the first place is that it is supposed to make tasks easier. You have more power with a word processor than with a typerwriter (or pen and paper). Turbotax makes filing simple tax returns very easy and efficient. Online card catalogs are easier to search than traditional ones.. the list goes on. Yet you would ask that all the time savings not only be lost, but that everyone should be worse off with computers than they were beforehand. Now.. you could just be trolling, but there are people with this inexplicable attitude. Do you bake all your own food yourself? Did you assemble your own car? Your own house? Why should those be any different?

  23. This sounds like a great article. by n-baxley · · Score: 5, Funny

    Unfortunatly, I lost interest and didn't take the time to read all the way through it. I hope there wasn't anything I'm supposed to know in there.

    --

    THIS SPACE FOR RENT
    1. Re:This sounds like a great article. by Glint · · Score: 1

      That's okay, this is slashdot. It shouldn't matter.

  24. The correct term is THIEFWARE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    or burglerware if you like. People rightfully don't expect their pc to be tapped, its resources used or otherwise tampered with.

    Of course "it's their own fault" but that does not take away the unprecedented lack of morality of the companies involved.

    It should be considered virii and nothing else.

    1. Re:The correct term is THIEFWARE by pomakis · · Score: 2
      or burglerware if you like. People rightfully don't expect their pc to be tapped, its resources used or otherwise tampered with.

      That's a very good point. If you sign an agreement with your plumber to get some work done, and page three of what you signed states "You hereby grant Joe's Plumbing the right to enter your home and use the resources contained within at any time", the contract would most certainly not stand up in court. I don't see how spyware contracts are any different.

    2. Re:The correct term is THIEFWARE by edrugtrader · · Score: 2

      insightful? bah.

      maybe we should call it KaZaaGate??

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
  25. One interesting point.... by phunhippy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many millions have downloaded this software now?
    How come not one person out of these millions noticed that line about tapping your computers unused cycles and wrote to a news site pr here about it?
    Why did this come out only when brilliant filed with the SEC?

    Surely at least one person must have read the damn eula? Somehow i don't feel to bad for everyone..

    A very happy furthernet[furthernet.com] user :)

    burn my karma if ya like i don't care i think i have a good point :)

    1. Re:One interesting point.... by burts_here · · Score: 1

      we all thought somone else would tell people, honest!

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    2. Re:One interesting point.... by Mr.+Quick · · Score: 1

      i agree with you... another situation of buyer beware...

      you can't trust anyone, sad but true.

    3. Re:One interesting point.... by ShadowDrgn · · Score: 1

      I'm sure they have one of those "we can alter this at any time" clauses in the agreement. Perhaps the original EULAs didn't contain anything about BDE because their software was inactive. Kazaa changes their agreement, activates the spyware, and the millions of people that already downloaded it and agreed to the original EULA are screwed unknowingly.

    4. Re:One interesting point.... by Occasional+Poster · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that KazAa has only recently been attaching the "Brilliant" piggyback software to its primary software package. I believe it started early this year.

  26. 1040-EZ by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

    The graph compares it with form 1040-EZ... the one sheet thing that I filled out in elementary school as part of a math class.

    We're not exactly talking about a form that I need to bring to my accountant.

  27. There should be a law... by CaptainPhong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It should be illegal to have complicated and misleading user-agreements in software. Over the course of a day, a consumer might have to agree to several of these, not to mention other contracts, service agreements, etc. they have to sign in their non-computer life. Invariably, these sorts of things are unreadably long and full of Legalese unintelligible to the average Joe. We're bombarded by so many, that it is literally impossible to read and understand them all, let alone send them to our lawyers (as we are "supposed" to do with contracts).

    Because of the size, complexity and volume of these things (and the need to usually get past them quickly), I would argue that they amount to coercion (which would invalidate them). The same is true of shrink-wrap software licenses (which you are rarely able to examine until well after you've unwittingly agreed to them). Of course, I doubt a court of law would agree with me. However, I think it would make sense to have a consumer protection law that requires that these sorts of things have a short, concise, easy to read summary at the beginning that gives the user an idea of what they're getting in to (with all the legalese below for completeness). That would prevent companies from creating scumware like this then hiding behind their user-auto-agreements.

    --
    ... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
    1. Re:There should be a law... by MrFredBloggs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      `coercion` to me suggests someone being forced to do something against their will. This is the exact opposite - someone choosing to download some software, then choosing to install it, and choosing to NOT read the contract they are entering into. Its about as far from coercion as you could hope to be.

    2. Re:There should be a law... by CynicTheHedgehog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would prefer to get rid of licensing agreements entirely. I don't have to agree to any binding terms when I purchase a CD player or a hair dryer; why should software be treated any differently?

      Of course I realize that unlike my hypothetical hair dryer, a piece of software can be copied and distributed using little or no personal resources. It isn't exactly a commodity, so it can't be treated as such. Nevertheless, I'm still opposed to EULAs in their current forms, so perhaps a compromise is in order.

      Generally speaking, the GPL and its close relatives don't get much flack from the SlashDot crowd. In essence they are EULAs, using the same legalistic and hard-to-understand languages as their distant proprietary cousins, but they are accepted, tolerated--even welcome in our community. They are maintained by standards organizations, publicly reviewed, and well understood.

      Can this be done in the commercial world? Like, such-and-such has a EULA that is approved by the [insert standards body here]? But then again, even if it did help identify these issues sooner, my guess is that no one would even bother to look for that seal ("Kazaa isn't using an approved EULA? Oh no! Oh well.").

      And then, no one could force a company (*cough*Kazaa*cough*) to get their EULAs approved. I'm not sure if I'd want that anyway.

    3. Re:There should be a law... by burts_here · · Score: 1

      the thing is with having to agree to all these laws, agreements most people never actually "agree" to any of them. Come on last time you bought anything with a guarantee you proabely entered into an agreement with somone. The problem with this is it actually breaks down the weight these laws and contracts have, because you end up breaking them fifty times a day it stops mattering to you.

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    4. Re:There should be a law... by karmawarrior · · Score: 2

      Of course I realize that unlike my hypothetical hair dryer, a piece of software can be copied and distributed using little or no personal resources. It isn't exactly a commodity, so it can't be treated as such. Nevertheless, I'm still opposed to EULAs in their current forms, so perhaps a compromise is in order.

      You don't have to sign a licence agreement when you buy and read a book, borrow a book, watch TV, watch a movie at a theatre or on a VHS tape or on a DVD, listen to a music CD, listen to a radio station, etc, etc. To varying degrees, all of these are comparable to the use and flexibility of software.

      So I agree: screw 'em. At the very least, it should be possible for every user to use a piece of software without agreeing to an EULA, to the extent that a buyer can claim money back, time and effort recouped, and extra damages if they are not given the option. If a software company wants to offer an alternative, then that's fine, as long as it's an alternative, and not a replacement.
      --
      KMSMA (WWBD?)
    5. Re:There should be a law... by zero-one · · Score: 1

      One solution would be to have some logo or symbol web sites and software developers could put on thier products to indicate that the licence meets certian minimum standards. For example for web sites this could include:
      - no spy ware
      - no abuse of email addresses
      - no passing of data to third parties
      This way even if there is a long licence agreement, users of a web site or software could see this logo and have some confidence that they are not signing up for something they don't want or at least the licence agreement is in the bounds specified by the standard.

    6. Re:There should be a law... by LL · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because for software to be useful, it has to interact with other components and people. A hair dryer is a stand alone task but driving a car, you have to acknowledge the rules of the road and all the traffic signals and accept liability for 3rd party damaage and injury.

      GPL is a *voluntary* offer. In return for consideration of using other people's GPL code, you agree to behavior restrictirs (not obscuring source). EULA offer zero warranties and impose so many conditions and disclaims and exclusions clauses it wouldn't surprise me if it violated a dozen statutes. Because so many technical people have tested GPL (not to mention argued it up and down the valley) hackers have a fair understanding of the implications, even if they disagree with it, can can even come up with their own counter-offers (MPL, etc).

      With the commercial world, pre-defined contracts basically weight themselves against the user, there is no negotiation, and courses for remedy are virtually non-existant. The doctrine of equity is seriously eroded here. Until companies come up with a way of justifying their service (as encoded in software) is legally binding and balanced as to benefit/obligations, I think the public is right to be sceptical of any claims. Would you trust an email that offered you $xxxx by doing your taxes in a certain way? Or would you ask your accountant who can at least be charged with professional negligence.

      LL

    7. Re:There should be a law... by Crapflooder+Supreme · · Score: 1

      Might I remind you that the GPL has *never* been tested in a court of law? For all you know it could be just as invalid as any other EULA.

      --
      "Don't worry, it's not loaded." --Terry Kath
    8. Re:There should be a law... by VisualStim · · Score: 1

      Trading copyrighted files should be legal, but complex user agreements should be illegal ... uh, ok. :)

    9. Re:There should be a law... by metacell · · Score: 1

      Swedish law adresses this problem. In Sweden, contracts must be entered *before* the purchase to be valid. Agreements of the type "If you open this envelope, you implicitly agree to this contract" are invalid in Sweden. Disclaimers are equally invalid.

      So, if anybody needs to disassemble a piece of proprietary software, just send it here, and I can do it legally. As long as I don't give away copies of the software, I can do whatever I like with it. Those little pesky legal labels on the CD envelopes don't mean a thing here.

      Of course, most people don't know that, so the software companies try to pull a fast one on us and include the contracts and disclaimers anyway.

      But, who would want to disassemble Microsoft software anyway...

  28. OB AdAware Link by Tower · · Score: 2

    AdAware (USA Link)

    AdAware (.de)

    --
    "It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
  29. Unexpected (unintended?) bit of honesty by drew_kime · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "I'm not an extremist," said Robert Regular, vice president of sales and marketing at New York-based digital advertising firm Cydoor. "But all this talk of spyware is the equivalent of elevating one bad seed, and it's having negative consequences on the good software. The public doesn't have time to investigate if it's negative software; they'll just stop downloading ... I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever a dialog box comes up and says, 'Do you want to do this,' bells go off and people become worried." (My emphasis)

    Personally, I wish that is exactly what would happen. Popups dialogs and confirmation boxes should only appear when there is something you need to think about. If you're not supposed to think about it, then why are they bothering you with the popup in the first place?

    --
    Nope, no sig
  30. jeebus! by xarfel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is so ridiculous. Trust is soon to become a thing of the distant past. The last shreds of it are slipping away. Modern cannibalism for the sake of the dollar. So sad.

    "Brilliant, whose Altnet peer-to-peer software piqued consumer fears, says it is committed to telling people exactly how their computers will be used via new agreements and pop-up boxes as it loads more software and starts using consumers' computer resources."

    If they were so committed to telling people, why the hell didn't they? All of these companies set out to decieve, then lie and manipulate to cover their asses. I can't even imagine the discussions that these people had to plan such an underhanded ploy.

    You can't even hum two bars of a song without someone looking for royalties. Do you think these companies intent to pay up when they use your computer to solve a million dollar math problem? hell no! damn the man..haha

  31. Hillarious by Kenshiro · · Score: 4, Funny

    "... I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever a dialog box comes up and says, 'Do you want to do this,' bells go off and people become worried." (Robert Regular, vice president of sales and marketing at New York-based digital advertising firm Cydoor)

    Oh yeah, wouldn't want that...

    1. Re:Hillarious by 0xA · · Score: 2

      Damnit, I was gonna say that!

      Dear Mr. Regular,

      I send you this file to ask your advice....

  32. Educated idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just goes to prove that a degree does not necessarily give one common sense. Read everything before you agree to it. Shrink Wrap / Click-Thru, whatever you want to call it, READ IT FIRST.

  33. TextArc Revelation? by limekiller4 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'll bet you a nickel that if they run the Kazaa TOS through TextArc, Bill Gate's face will appear. =)

    --
    My .02,
    Limekiller
  34. msconfig by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Part of my job is to configure students machines for use on a dorm network. Very often we get complaints about service ranging from no connectivity to slow performance. Of course the slowness can be directly attributed to P2P apps and their tendency to hog bandwidth, but Gator and its ilk are notorious in our circles as poorly written programs that not only do all the privacy violation, etc that they should be reviled for, they also have the unique ability to mung Winsock on machines running ME, 98 and 2000. The fix requires a young priest and old priest and a silver sword (read: edit the registry and rebuild the TCP/IP stack). So now when I get a machine with Gator, etc. I edit the system startup to shut it down. Invariably the performance of the machine and its network connectivity rebounds. I don't ask permission to do this as we are not removing the program, but simply preventing having the prolematic software do what it does -- start.

    --
    Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
    1. Re:msconfig by duffbeer703 · · Score: 2

      Just curious.

      How exactly do you do when you "rebuild the TCP/IP stack"? Does Gator and it's ilk tip the stack over or something?

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    2. Re:msconfig by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Delete tcp/ip from the network config and delete all the winsock keys from the registry as well as the dhcp keys. reboot. reinstall the tcp/ip in the network config. reboot. Worky.

      --
      Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
  35. A little more like Snowcrash by dachshund · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I fully support a system that requires all users to read the entire EULA, by monitoring their scroll bar usage and ensuring that they take a certain amount of time before hitting the "Accept" button. They could present the EULA one sentence at a time. Or perhaps they could even provide a little multiple-choice quiz at the end.

    If the company failed to take these actions and allowed the user to click through anyway, they could rest assured that their EULA would be unenforceable. That would certainly shorten EULAs fast.

    1. Re:A little more like Snowcrash by Pxtl · · Score: 2

      Heheh, that'd be something. Maybe, just in case the user can't read very well, the ULA should be read alloud audibly by the speakers. The amount of time is then limited by the amount of time it takes the machine to clearly (meaning slowly) read the ULA alloud. This'd really shorten them.

  36. We're supposed to trust them by Skidge · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I'm not an extremist," said Robert Regular, vice president of sales and marketing at New York-based digital advertising firm Cydoor. "But all this talk of spyware is the equivalent of elevating one bad seed, and it's having negative consequences on the good software. The public doesn't have time to investigate if it's negative software; they'll just stop downloading...I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever a dialog box comes up and says, 'Do you want to do this,' bells go off and people become worried."

    So we're supposed to trust them. These spyware folks are just a few bad apples among the wonderful adware crowd. Damn you, Brilliant, you're keeping me from all this good adware software.

    1. Re:We're supposed to trust them by HamNRye · · Score: 2

      "I'm not an extremist," said Robert Regular, vice president of sales and marketing at New York-based digital advertising firm Cydoor. "But all this talk of spyware is the equivalent of elevating one bad seed, and it's having negative consequences on the good software. The public doesn't have time to investigate if it's negative software; they'll just stop downloading...I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever a dialog box comes up and says, 'Do you want to do this,' bells go off and people become worried."

      As I recall, wasn't Cydoor originally Radiate which was initially Aureate, etc... These f**ks have consistently been one of the worst companies out there for being spyware. Can anyone name the program Cydoor makes?? No, cause it just sits there logging the URL's you go to, and serving ads in games like Drug Wars etc...

      These were the people who turned me off to spyware from the beginning. Or should I say "The Bad Seed"....

      Hammy

    2. Re:We're supposed to trust them by shannara256 · · Score: 1

      > No, cause it just sits there logging the URL's you go to, and serving ads in games like Drug Wars etc...

      Well, that's easy to fix. Play Drug Wars on your graphing calculator... no more ads.

  37. IANAL, BMWISTBO!?!? by mekkab · · Score: 5, Funny

    (I am not a lawyer, but my wife is studying to be one)
    While she was taking her contracts class, she pored over EVERY single contract (Wedding coordinator, photographer, hotel where the wedding was held, DJ, etc.) with a fine tooth comb. That is the lawyer in training method.

    But when I speak with friends of the family who are lawyers, many simply sign every document thrust in front of their face becuase they know that no matter how you phrased it, they can wiggle out if need be!

    That explains why I sign legally binding documents as I. P. Freely

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  38. IRS v. EULA by squidinkcalligraphy · · Score: 1

    Only two things in life are certain:
    death and spyware.

    --
    "I think it would be a good idea" Gandhi, on Western Civilisation
    1. Re:IRS v. EULA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "But at least after death you're not nauseous..."

      (Woody Allen, "Sleeper")

  39. It could be a valid business model... by Lobsang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This *could* be a valid business model. Think about it: Company X offers services for free in exchange for a few of your CPU cycles. The same client could be used for both distributed processing and, say, file downloads. Company X makes money by selling CPU power to third parties (your spare cycles) and you, the user, enjoy free service.

    Unfortunately, KaZaa wants to do it *without* telling you. That's just unacceptable...

    1. Re:It could be a valid business model... by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • KaZaa wants to [use your CPU cycles]*without* telling you. That's just unacceptable

      Wait... you're too lazy to even read the article that tells you that you were too lazy to read the EULA that tells you that they're going to use your CPU (and bandwidth)?

      What do you need, a huge popup? Oh, wait, Brilliant are going to give you one of those as well.

      There's no issue here. If you want to download a binary and not read the EULA to find out what you've just installed, you have no grounds for bitching about what you've just installed. None.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:It could be a valid business model... by jgerman · · Score: 3, Insightful
      there are certain rights you cannot waive, for example, you can't be legally bound to a stipulation in a contract that allows someone to kill you. In the case of software it's possible for a comapany to practically rape an end user because either 1) they didn't read the quasi legal EULA, 2) didn't understand the EULA. There are laws in this country expressly for preventing corporations, and individual, from unfairly taking advantage of people who are ignorant of certain facts. This should be no different. As more and more spyware get's installed on Joe Shmoe's computer, the value he's getting from the computer he just laid out his hard earned money gets progressively smaller. Using spare cycles is a deceptive term. I don't have spare cycles in my single processor machine. If you start firing off processes using "spare cycles" my machine slows down, it's as simple as that. The memory you're using is unavailable to me as well. Joe Schmoe, (I as well for that matter) did not pay for a computer to have spyware companies gradually take it over, regardless of an EULA.


      This entire attitude is bordering on hypocrisy. The common reaction, of techies, to RL law being applied unchanged to the digital world usually erupts into cries of "The internet is not the real world, the existising laws don't fit". But your attitude is just the opposite. A contract is binding in RL, we'll assume a click thorugh is a real contract (regardless of the absurdness of this assumption) and apply RL laws to it.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    3. Re:It could be a valid business model... by TrevorB · · Score: 2

      What about a peer to peer model that had karma?

      To pull from the community, you also had to contribute to it.

      Resources you could request from the community could consist of files, CPU time, the ability to place ads on others computers, streaming video or request for recorded program in another city from TV tuner cards, paypal type money transaction, etc...

      Resources the community could request of you could include downloading files, CPU time, ad placement, bandwidth redirector (taking a single popluar stream and restreaming it to multiple users), TV tuner streams or files from your city, data storage of a popular file (that you don't necessarily want), paypal type money.

      Assign each of these resources a karma value, make sure it's VERY explicit to the user what resources they are providing at any particular time (and give them the option to NOT offer certain resources, or only at certain levels like bandwidth caps) and let the computers trade away. Leeching no longer becomes an option, but if everyone realizes how much larger the network could grow, this network could be quite interesting.

      The Karma values would have to fluctuate over time, like a free market.

      I'm actually surprised with the boom in TV tuner cards no-one has tried to make a p2p program to stream or request recordings from peers in a different city. Sort of a p2p TivO. Depends on the rebroadcast rules in your country, I believe this might actually be legal here in Canada.

      Add in a "Favorites" and let your computer download stuff you MIGHT find interesting, much like a TivO.

      It might be possible to allow certain amounts of leeching, giving people a daily karma credit, for instance. You'd have to tweak this value to see how scalable the network should be.

      I wonder what other resources computers with bandwidth can provide on their own.

      I've been thinking along these lines (next generation p2p apps) for a while. If anyone finds them interesting, give me a buzz... :)

    4. Re:It could be a valid business model... by mansemat · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't you need some sort of secure central server to keep track of karma points? Otherwise it could be easily hacked if this value were stored on the client.

      Once you have a central *anything* in this type of network you defeat the main purpose of the original design. It's supposed to be distributed. A central point leaves it vulnerable to a number of bad(TM) things. Litigation being one of them.

      --
      --
    5. Re:It could be a valid business model... by Asgard · · Score: 1

      Mojonation was a p2p that had that concept; you had 'mojo' that you earned / spent in the course of sharing / downloading. The project has closed though :

    6. Re:It could be a valid business model... by TrevorB · · Score: 1

      If the data were shared amongst a number of supernodes, supernodes were rated with a reliability, and the supernodes had no way of knowing which entries were in fact which user (request with username/password, response with validation and karma points) you MIGHT be able to get around this.

      Actually acting as an authentication node was one of the services you could provide to the network

  40. Such a small box too by UCRowerG · · Score: 1

    Apart from the legalese and complicated language, which I agree is difficult for most people to understand, I think it's really annoying that they put such a large amount of text into that tiny little window.... like they expect most users to simply give up scrolling and just click the "Agree/Yes/Ok/Screw Me" button.

  41. What do you expect when its free? by frankrachel · · Score: 1

    Everyone wants the software and the service to be free, but a company isn't going to stay in business that way.. so they partner with other companies who pay them money to attach spyware and adware and whatever-else-ware.

    If its free and from a commercial entity, you have to expect stuff like this. Free does not translate to a sound business model..

    1. Re:What do you expect when its free? by blankmange · · Score: 2

      Free = questionable ethics? I haven't found any problems/spyware in WinMX...

      --
      ...we are from the government - we are here to help...
  42. Too much backlash by asv108 · · Score: 2

    KaZaA should of predicted the amount of backlash it would face when adding distributed spyware to it's installer. Consumers are willing to tolerate some level of spyware, as we have seen with the variety of P2P apps with "bundled apps", but KaZaA has not just stepped over the line, they flew over it. Now look at where they are at, the name KaZaA is synonymous with spyware, but more importantly KaZaA has been removed from download.com, I can't think of a worst fate for a windows app.

  43. Most interesting by teamhasnoi · · Score: 1
    I found the teeney portion of the article that said,"... broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C."

    Senator Hollings is at it again with a new bill. What kind of buddy-buddy shit is he tring to pull this time? First the Consumer Broadband Promotion BS, and now he's our pal with 'The Privacy Act for Kazaa Users'? Sure. What kind of consitutional f-over will this be?

    Try looking at Minnesota, Fritz. They want an opt-in approach...

  44. Ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok guys, although this might sound a bit narrowminded to some, but I bet 95% of the people who downloaded kaaza, was for downloading copyrighted stuff. So it's kind of ironic wouldn't you think that everyone jumps up and down about spyware, and how it's wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, but please people, keep it real. At the end, I'm just curious what grany at age 65 was downloading from kaaza?

  45. How to install software... by smagruder · · Score: 5, Insightful
    1. While installing software, don't bother with reading the EULA (unless that gives you kicks, or you're required to), but run the installation as you normally would, making sure that whenever you have the option to *not* install adware or spyware, take it.
    2. Scan your system with Ad-aware or other comparable software. Note: I don't work for Lavasoft.
    3. If the previously installed software still works, Great! If not, uninstall it.
    --
    Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
    1. Re:How to install software... by stud9920 · · Score: 1
      If the previously installed software still works, great! If not, uninstall it.
      Else install a replacement for the DLL Kazaa/Grokster require in order to accept to run. More info at http://www.project-insomnia.com/grokster.html
    2. Re:How to install software... by jgerman · · Score: 2
      Even better start a project to replace spyware binaries with benign, or even annoying replacements. Send them back total crap.


      Of course that's where the DMCA and UCITA work together to fuck you up the ass as a consumer. EULA's are legally binding, you've allowed this software to exist on your machine, and the DMCA basically says you can do nothing about it. A company could even attempt to prosecute you for circumventing their protection schemes that prevent you from deleting the spyware. Corp's are rapidly jumping on the bandwagon to homestead my machine. If they want it, they have to pay for it.


      I have a website on my box that says that by installing their software on my machine they must pay me $100 per hour that the process is running. what they didn't read it? That's too bad, this is my property, I set the rules.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
  46. Morpheus just gateway drug? by Aerog · · Score: 2

    So I've been thinking more and more about this as I still can't download Farscape on the "new" Morpheus (Curse it's infernal codes), and I'm starting to come to a a conclusion that should get thrown out to see if it's not off base. . .

    So KaZaa (which still sounds like 'l337 Skr1pt k1dd13' speak) lets Morpheus use their network, since it'll pull in those people who want to use peer-to-peer and also know enough that spyware is out there and it's bad, mm'kay? One day, when Morpheus has something like a few million users, they pull the plug. Question: Where will these newly-deprived users go? For the most part, KaZaa. Now how many 'new things' are suddenly added to KaZaa and not mentioned? Seems to me like the main purpose of Morpheus in the beginning was more of a "gateway drug" to get otherwise intelligent people to use KaZaa. I think if the management at our favorite spyware-headquarters didn't know that they were using it to drag people in when they would eventually shut it down, they would have never let it run at all.

    One giant user grab? I think so.

    --

    - Relativistic? That's barely Newtonian!
    1. Re:Morpheus just gateway drug? by who+what+why · · Score: 1

      Not any more. Kazaa locked Morpheus out of their network a few months ago. (And put the kaibosh on giFT, the open source alternative trying to use the same network.) Since then Morpheus went over to using the Gnucleus gnutella engine wrapped in their own interface. Of course, being based on gnutella, it sucks ass, but if it actually worked, it would be a great victory for OSS over adware/spyware/steal-your-cycles-and-bandwidth-war e like kazaa.

  47. GREAT! MORE LAWS! by inKubus · · Score: 3, Redundant

    Hey, let's just pave the way for lawyers to have further control of the fucking world! That's exactly what we need! To have this issue debated and decided by computer ILLITERATES who will end up fucking us all straight up the pooper! YAY! HAVEN'T WE LEARNED, FOLKS?!

    If you are too LAZY to learn the facts, to learn how to compile your own open source software, to learn how to fix your own plumbing, YOU ARE GOING TO BE GETTING SCREWED BY SOMEONE WHO DOES KNOW.

    So please. Don't ask for new laws. Learn the facts. And then make money off the people who don't know them.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
    1. Re:GREAT! MORE LAWS! by karmawarrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that the current system is great for lawyers: You're forced to accept an EULA to use a piece of software, if you don't want to, you have to (somehow) negotiate your money back. And in order to understand the EULA, you probably should consult a lawyer anyway: Even if it apparently reads like plain English, there will be clauses that are likely to be invalid, or ambigious, or have hidden repercussions.

      Simply outlawing them, or offering a basic "If someone pays you for the right to use the software, you MUST offer them the ability to install and use the software without agreeing to any conditions beyond those implied by copyright law and first-use/right of first sale doctrines." is not going to help the lawyers. It removes them from the process, and a good thing too.

      --
      KMSMA (WWBD?)
    2. Re:GREAT! MORE LAWS! by mwa · · Score: 2
      You're forced to accept an EULA to use a piece of software

      No, you don't. Someone may have to click "I agree", but it doesn't have to be you. It could be your minor child. Since minors have not authority to enter a contract, the EULA is void. If the vendor cannot prove that you clicked on it, you're not bound by it. Nor does it have to mean that you really agree.

      Fight the meme! If you don't agree to something before you it's given to you, especially in over the counter software sales, it's not a contract, it's a sale. (I'd make the same argument even if that sale is a "free" download. If you don't agree prior to the transaction, your agreement is not required as part of the transaction.)

      IANAL, just pissed off that this crap keeps going on and we keep taking it

  48. Their comparison is bullsh!t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What they should have done is compared the license agreement with current tax code. Then you can say which is harder to understand. Tax code is written by accountants and lawyers to keep accountants and lawyers in business. After all, there is a reason we have tax lawyers.

  49. Yes, it might be enforcable by Jugalator · · Score: 5, Informative

    is a yes/no button a legally binding clause?

    From http://www.techlawonline.com/internet.htm#about3:

    The Internet variant of "shrinkwrap" licenses are "clickwrap" licenses which are standard-form contracts entered into online; for example, Terms of Service posted on a web site, under which the purchaser signifies his assent to the terms simply by clicking on a box marked "I Agree." Like shrinkwrap licenses, the terms are non-negotiable. Unlike post-payment shrinkwrap licenses, however, the purchaser's consent to the posted terms is usually obtained before the exchange of funds.

    While the courts have not explicitly upheld the enforceability of clickwrap licenses, in at least one recent decision, the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California implicitly ruled that such an agreement was enforceable. Hotmail Corporation v. Van$ Money Pie Inc., 47 U.S.P.Q. 2d 1020, 1998 WL 388389 (April 1998, N.D.Cal.). It remains to be seen whether other courts will similarly find these types of agreements enforceable.

    The court's decision in the Hotmail case above can be found here:

    http://eon.law.harvard.edu/h2o/property/alternat iv es/hotmail.html

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    1. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by mip · · Score: 1

      I was just wondering...

      If someone was to program some sort of work around, so that the EULA dialog box was circumvented, i.e. it didn't appear but the program still installed, would it apply? By not clicking OK would the agreement still stand? Is it only legally applicable once the EULA has been agreed to? How can a company be certain you have agreed to it? Is installing the software enough? "I agree", "I don't agree", "Skip this bit". "I didn't click but I've installed it, the agreement isn't binding". I suppose its probably just 'piracy'.

      Thoughts?

    2. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Jburkholder · · Score: 2

      >If someone was to program some sort of work around [...] would it apply?

      Hmm, that seems as unlikely as

      "hey honey, come click 'ok' here while I leave the room. Why? so I won't be bound to this crappy EULA, that's why!"

    3. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Mortigalli · · Score: 1

      What happens when the program has failed to act reasonably? I had to disable the software since it was the only reason my system could have been crashing. Since it was disabled no crashes. To use another piece of software [Kazaa] could I be legally required to run software [brilliant digital] that harms my system?

    4. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by mip · · Score: 1

      Ok, sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. I meant, what if some sort of program was written to remove said EULA dialog? If the dialog was not presented at all. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

    5. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or using WinZip/WinRAR to access the contents of a self-extracting .EXE, one in which the original, built-in extractor presents a clickwrap EULA to agree to?

      (PS. Does that automatically make all .ZIP-format file extractors illegal, per the DMCA, if only just one single self-extracting .EXE is used as a "technological copy protection mechanism"?)

    6. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Jburkholder · · Score: 1

      No, I understood it that way. You are circumventing an agreement. If you do it by electronic means, it probably isn't much different.

      If you signed a loan for your car using invisible ink, you have still entered into an agreement, you've just made it a little harder to prove.

      "Your honor, my client is obviously not bound by the terms of this agreement and this case should be dismissed!"

      "On what grounds?"

      "That my client hacked the install program and never clicked on the 'OK' for the EULA. In fact, he never even _saw_ the agreement that he is accused of violating!"

      "Oh, well... case dismissed then!"

    7. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Jburkholder · · Score: 1

      invisible => disappearing

    8. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by Rinikusu · · Score: 2

      What about for financially obligations?

      For example, my university has this policy of when you register for classes, you have to click a button that says "By registering, I agree to pay money, even if I don't attend classes." There's no statement of fees (you can access them,though), there's no credit check, there's no proof of ability to pay, etc. It's really akin to putting a button on my webpage that says
      "Hey, by visiting my site, you agree to pay me $2000, please enter your billing information below:" with no real identity check other than an assigned "pin number", etc. Is a click a legally binding signature? In the past, I've had to sign documents (ostensibly called "loans"), etc. Now I can just click. Is this legal? Maybe I should post this up on Ask Slashdot...

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    9. Re:Yes, it might be enforcable by FireWhenRady · · Score: 1
      Most contracts don't need a signature since the majority of purchases (corner store, vending machine etc.) are done without a signature. So online purchases or choices shouldn't need a signature.

      But there needs to be some proof of intent, such as a password entered or that the YES/NO choices have to be explicitly scrolled to choose. Just showing a pop-up window with YES?/NO? and the YES highlighted and selected automatically by a default action shouldn't count.

      What if my cat clicks on the mouse? Can they sue me for my cat's actions.

      I should have to consciously select the case that is binding, not just click on the default button.

  50. Open source scanning solution ? by sh0rtie · · Score: 3, Interesting


    I think the general concensus amonst us all is that spyware is bad, yet the only reliable (and free) solution seems to of been delegated to our friends at Lavasoft, while they are doing a *great* job, their project is unfortunatly closed source and therefore people/programmers cannot really contribute to its success (other than donate cash which is reccomended but not convienent to everyone)

    if people feel so strongly on this issue why hasen't anyone started an open source solution to this scurge so the talented programmers amongs us can improve the scanning and detection techniques ?

    at the moment the spyware companies only really have to make their product beat lavasofts Adaware and they are in business (at least til/if Adaware picks it up)

    sure spyware seems to be only targeted to Windows users but as other operating systems become more widespread it is only a matter of time before they spread to these alternative platforms too

    while closed source could be argued as a good thing (stop spycompanies seeing how it works) could they beat 100's of programmers all working to make the scanning engine more robust and secure, this obviously works in regards to computer security on *nix platforms as viruses are not more prominent than closed source platforms
    so would beating spyware benefit from these same techniques ?

    While i agree that these spyware programs should be regarded as viruses/trojans i think once you bring a commercial element into the equation you open yourselves up to attacks of perpetuating the products life/success (ie: rumours that virus detection companies create viruses)

    so would an open source spyware detection solution work ?

  51. Znet Instructions by vagnerr · · Score: 2, Informative

    When all this blew up znet produced some manual removal instructions which are here

    --
    -- Vagnerr - (www.vagnerr.com) Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
  52. Blocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps (probably) i am simple minded, but should blocking all traffic in & out related to:

    Name: www.brilliantdigital.com Address: 64.70.38.178

    not be enough???

    Hans.

  53. A legal virus? by The+G · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know that it's a mistake to think of legal documents as if legal language were source code or machine instructions for the legal system. None the less, it does seem as if we are beginning to see legal documents employing the same sort of "social engineering" and "viral behaviour" that we encounter daily in code.

    What Kazaa has done is no different from what the Mellissa virus did: It presented people with a choice (install this software for Kazaa, open this document for Mellissa) that appeared to most to be benign. The means of knowing the choice was not benign were available (the license agreement for Kazaa, the actual contents of the document for Mellissa), but were obfuscated (in complex and opaque legal language, in obfuscated macros in an opaque document format) and chaffed (in one small part of a very large file/document in both cases).

    Perhaps, then, we need to look upon trojans written in legal "code" the same way we look at trojans in software: As malicious and probably illegal. It is no more sensible to expect people to be able to fully comprehend a complex (and deliberately obfuscated) legal document than it is to expect people to read the binary code of every program they run. Yet our legal system presumes that you are responsible for your agreement to "run" the legal code but that you are the victim when you run the binary.

    We need to treat contracts and licenses written in legal language the same way that we treat compiled code: as opaque and, when they are harmful, as malicious "exploits" of user vulnerabilities.
    --G

    1. Re:A legal virus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alot of the software agreement clauses seem to be similar. Could the usual statements be screened out to at least make the parts unique to the product readable. You could skim out all those basic legal phrases first, then the basic legal phrases often found in the flesh of software agreements, etc.
      --KB

  54. Understandable EULA by stinkydog · · Score: 3, Funny

    1. We have the right to use your computer, drink your beer and sleep with your sister.
    2. You agree to binding arbitration, which means our representitve "Bubba" will tie you up and have his way with you until you stop whining.
    3. You agree to purchase additional hardware as we deem necessary to run our software.
    4. Your rights: NONE

    Accept Yes/NO

    SD

    --
    âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
    1. Re:Understandable EULA by user32.ExitWindowsEx · · Score: 1

      It prolly should have been

      Accept? Yes/Yes

      --
      "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -- Dark Helmet
  55. Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by Combuchan · · Score: 2
    • They post a EULA. If you can't read a EULA, get a lawyer or learn legalese. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and people ultimately need to be accountable for the software they install on their computer. It'll be a cold day in hell and a dark day on the surface if some judge ruled in favor of the plaintiff if anybody sued over this.
    • This is actually a good idea: Kazaa provides a free service for its users and a free download, and in exchange for this the users give up some CPU time. Maybe you all who think everything on the Internet should be for free (*glare at T(H)GSB*) should take your altruism back to 1999.
    • If you don't know what software does, don't install it. I know what I have installed on my computer, I know what it does, and I don't get surprised when I do (pkg_info|dpkg -l).
    • My favorite part from the article: "76 percent of respondents said they were "concerned" about having their privacy violated on the Internet. Only 22 percent admitted to reading privacy policies." No comment, this quote speaks for itself.
    • The 1040EZ is less of a read than the EULA? I should hope so. That's not even saying much.

    If you disagree, reply.
    --
    "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
    1. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to make my own EULA and do it in Swahili. That should save some people time so they don't have bother reading it. Of course they just made me their sole heir which I can claim anytime even before they are dead.

    2. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by xarfel · · Score: 1

      I agree 100% that this makes a nice business model, trading cycles for service, just do it over the table. EULA's are not 'over the table', and it's a bad argument to defend them. Anyone who's worked in this industry knows that this goes on, and getting a lawyer is NOT an option for those who don't understand this jargon. I don't have this problem, and obviously you don't either. Many people do however, and I think they deserve a little compassion. If you live a dog eat dog life, you are nothing more than that, a dog.

    3. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by LL · · Score: 2

      Non Est Factum

      A legal rule for voiding contracts based on
      - (computer) illiteracy
      - (program) radically different from what it is
      - failure to understand due to complexity (not carelessness)

      The key item is #2, that the program is in fact radically different in intent to what the person downloading it believes it to be (file fetching v P2P node). Fact is that computer literacy is so absymally low that items 1) and 3) would apply to 99.9% of the population.

      This is the same reason why we retain accountants. The complexity of the legal code is such that we trust professionals to interpret it for us. Perhaps in some far off day, we ask open source advocates to help audit/secure software instead of picking up viruses and trojan horses willy-nilly.

      LL

    4. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by pboulang · · Score: 1
      They post a EULA. If you can't read a EULA, get a lawyer or learn legalese. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and people ultimately need to be accountable for the software they install on their computer. It'll be a cold day in hell and a dark day on the surface if some judge ruled in favor of the plaintiff if anybody sued over this.

      Saying that people should get a lawyer before installing software is ridiculous. Why aren't you thinking? Any lawyer worth his or her salt would look at any EULA, and tell you not to install the software. Do you accept EULA's where they explicitly say that the terms can change at any time without your consent?

      This is actually a good idea: Kazaa provides a free service for its users and a free download, and in exchange for this the users give up some CPU time. Maybe you all who think everything on the Internet should be for free (*glare at T(H)GSB*) should take your altruism back to 1999.

      As mentioned previously, yes that would be a usable model, as long as all parties agreed and were made aware of it. Also, you used the word 'altruism' wrong. I suggest it be replaced by 'greediness', 'selfishness' or some such.

      If you don't know what software does, don't install it. I know what I have installed on my computer, I know what it does, and I don't get surprised when I do (pkg_info|dpkg -l).

      Do you seriously expect anyone to believe you when you say this? I can guarantee that you do NOT know exactly what you have on your computer.

      You can't do a line by line code review, and if you could, do you think you could determine what it does? I suggest you take a programming course on proving algorithms. You look like you are attempting to say that a black box ad hoc analysis is fine to determine levels of safety for an end user.

      pkg_info doesn't even begin to list out what you have installed. Can you tell me that the default installation doesn't have built in spyware? What, you sniffed the network and didn't see any bad traffic leaving your box? Can you honestly believe it is hard to detect when sniffers are active and obfuscate as, perhaps an ICMP or DNS packet? I am willing to bet that you can't tell me what version of /bin/sh you are running (and why) without looking into the code. How do you know it isn't a trojan reporting a random version number? Have you confirmed the the versions of FTP you use don't also send a copy of your data to some central server? Wouldn't you be pissed if it did? But, as you suggest, you only have yourself to blame.

      Reread what you said and tell me if it doesn't sound arrogant. And ignorant.

      You should look for a junior level position with a mentor, you are eager but way too naive and green.

      --

      This comment is guaranteed*

      *not guaranteed

    5. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by Combuchan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Saying that people should get a lawyer before installing software is ridiculous.

      My initial comment was originally posted a bit tongue in cheek, but if you hit "I Agree" and you don't agree nor make any attempt to understand what you agree, that's not the fault of the company. If you hit "I Agree," you'd better agree.

      Why aren't you thinking? Any lawyer worth his or her salt would look at any EULA, and tell you not to install the software.

      Lawyers provide legal advice and break down the legal process for the average person. If I wanted to incorporate a business or get married, the lawyer would look at the forms I have to sign, and tell me what it is I'm signing. They don't say, "This form's too hard. Why are you wasting your time getting married anyway?" Lawyers are not just binary evaluators that say Do this/Don't do this and stop at that.

      >I know what I have installed on my computer, I know what it does, and I don't get surprised when I do (pkg_info|dpkg -l).

      Do you seriously expect anyone to believe you when you say this? I can guarantee that you do NOT know exactly what you have on your computer.

      Uhh, I would say a lot of people who have been running BSD/Linux for a while could agree with this statement.

      Your pkg_info paragraph is way off-base. I didn't say I know exactly what I have installed, but I have a fair understanding of what each program does based on what the author of the program has written about it. This is reinforced because a) I can trust the author as he or she is most likely not part of some greedy business and don't stoop to unethical behavior to match a profit margin, b) a vast majority of the software I have is open-sourced, and especially that which is in the FreeBSD base has gone through a fair amount of auditing, whereas Kazaa is a closed-source app that has probably not recieved any comprehensive security analysis, and c) if there were issues, I'd be alerted about them immediately as I'm seeing more 3rd-party auditors more interested in keeping whatever UNIX software secure rather than some silly windows utility.

      If the trojans of which you speak are delivered by some cracker, than it's my fault for not keeping up to date on patches. If the trojans are delivered by the author, a highly unlikely event especially with a commonplace app like ftp, that author would essentially be commiting developmental suicide as I and many others wouldn't use software from this author anymore. I do not expect this level of quality in Windows.

      Wouldn't you be pissed if it did? But, as you suggest, you only have yourself to blame.

      I sure would be, and yup, I'd blame myself. I'm glad that we see eye to eye on this issue, and it's settled. :P

      Besides, Kazaa alerted its users to some extent, and that's the whole point of this damn thread. Your questions of my knowledge of trojanned software is wholly irrelevant as trojans by definition are totally silent about their duality. And no 'Well, the obfuscation of the EULA sections on spyware is analogous to a trojanned program' because I don't see rootkits coming with click-through agreements that the legitimate sysadmin has to click "I Agree." to step through the installation process.

      Gee, you can dog me on my misuse of the word altruism but when it comes to trojan, you're the one in the dark ... :)

      If you disagree, reply.

      --
      "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
    6. Re:Why's Kazaa getting hammered for this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rofl
      I honestly must say that you are the frothiest, funniest moron I've had the displeasure of reading a post from, today.

      Maybe after you're done taking your intro CS courses you can take a 101 on not being a pretentious idiot, totally misundertstanding and mischaracterizing the original poster's commentary. Afterwards you can take off your tinfoil hat and join the rest of us in reality. Or not if that's more your speed.

      I hope you bath more than you think.

  56. "screw you"/"screw me" instead of "cancel"/"ok" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    THAT might help :)

  57. for the same reason we have clear lang laws by gelfling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IF you want to make a big deal about the legality of EULAs don't forget that something is either a contract or it is not. In which case it may have to conform to readibility statutes including being in a language you can actually read. Time and time again, legally speaking oh libertarian one - obscurity for the sake of obscurity has been struck down in the courts under the general principal that if you have something to hide you are probably committing fraud or trying to commit fraud.

  58. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since when did a "click" become a signature? Would a "click" hold up in court. I am tempted to find out. So what if I kick off an install, step away from my computer, and a co-worker clicks to agree to the EULA?

  59. I don't Care... by eel183 · · Score: 1

    I use KaZaA on its own machine firewalled from the rest of my network. When it gets too horked up, I just back up my downloaded files and re-format. It doesn't matter what happens to that machine. I dont use it for anything else.

  60. Re:Morpheus just gateway drug? MOD UP PARENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IMO you're *absolutely* right. Anyone else wondered why gnutella got squashed?

  61. If you need help convincing people... by TDScott · · Score: 3, Informative
    ...then I've written an under-600-word guide to the problem and how to fix it, designed for the uninitiated.

    Pointing people there could save hours of explanation...

  62. let me get this straight.... by holodude · · Score: 1

    yesterday, you all were outraged that people used P2P applications in NZ and were considered scum of the earth (http://slashdot.org/yro/02/04/17/0537252.shtml?ti d=95), but today you are outraged that the creators of P2P applications are embedding spyware and are considered scum of the earth?!?!?!?!
    tomorrow, you will be outraged that the creators of spyware are subject to higher taxes!!!!

  63. See, not l33t by inKubus · · Score: 2

    I can't even proofread my posts or put in a /i to delimit the comment. what a lamer.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
  64. Legalese by saihung · · Score: 1
    The article touches on an interesting point, but in my mind here is the real question: how can a democracy function when the laws and contracts that control the lives of each and every citizen are intentionally written so that normal citizens cannot read them?

    What we need in this country is comprehensive legal reform: laws need to be written in plain English, with NO USE OF LATIN TERMS; court decisions need to be composed in the vernacular and freely searchable by any citizen; contracts likewise need to be composed in plain English.

    Legal cooperatives that are springing up around the country are one solution to this problem, but ultimately the real solution will be to write legal documents in such a way that a high-school educated person can read and understand them.

  65. Software licenses and FAQs by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I am starting to really believe that all software licenses should include a FAQ, so people don't have read the whole unreadable text of a software license. I know that many companies write software licenses to protect themselves, but more and more are also doing it to gain additional rights.

    Other ideas that come to mind are standardized liability levels to which you can associate a logo. Something like 'MC' = Mission Critical, we pay if it breaks, 'NL' = No liability, you assume all the risks, and probably other more fine grained categories? The idea is that a software purchaser should know where they stand when buying a piece of software, rather than having to resort to hiring a lawyer or screwing themselves royally because they don't have the time for the fine print.

    Just imagine having a license written on the wrapping paper of every present you get at christmas. I am not sure anyone would check what it had to say, since they just want to get to the goody inside - software is the same.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:Software licenses and FAQs by ahrenritter · · Score: 1

      What you describe here is already being done to some extent by the P3P Project. It is designed to give consumers a quick concise view of how a website's privacy policy matches up to their preferences. You fill out a survey stating what you look for in a website, both the good and the bad, then when you visit a website, you can view the differences with P3P. Check it out.

      I'm personally hoping that it takes off.

      --

      All I wanted was a rock to wind a piece of string around, and I ended up with the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota
  66. Re:"general public"? laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Congratulations, you've managed to mark an unmoderated post as "overrated", hinting your lack of intelligence, thus supporting the point of the original post.

  67. Might be missing something, but... by waltc · · Score: 1

    ...anybody ever heard of a firewall? Seems to me that this is the easiest way to deal with "licenses" of this type.

  68. Political/Economic Action Needed? by LightForce3 · · Score: 1

    Are there any organizations/groups that can exert pressure on software companies (or even government bodies) to simplify EULAs? If so, we should support these efforts. If not, one should be created.

    The era of "the customer is always right" is long gone. Shady and immoral business practices are no longer isolated to organized crime rings; they are now used by large, popular corporations. We are no longer customers in the minds of businesspeople - we are only consumers.

    We need to fight back.

  69. Pinnochio flashback by Dr.+Bent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whenever I read articles about this I think about the free amusement park in the movie "Pinnochio" that turns you into a donkey. Moral of the story: There's no such thing as a free lunch.

  70. Disney Bill? by dmarx · · Score: 1
    "but broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C."

    Is this a reference to the "Disney Bill" (I forget the exact name)? If so, hoe does it address "privacy concerns", other than by ignoring them.

    --
    "Do I dare disturb the universe?"
  71. contract by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brilliant's "reserves the right to change or modify any of the terms and conditions of this agreement and any of the policies governing the services at any time in its sole discretion" clause/statement makes this "contract" unilateral. How can anyone be held to such a contract? You never know what bullshit Brilliant will come up with, possible illegal activities, and they believe you are giving consent, in ADVANCE, of "contract" changes. BUllshit.

  72. No new laws by inKubus · · Score: 2

    Simply outlawing them, or offering a basic "If someone pays you for the right to use the software, you MUST offer them the ability to install and use the software without agreeing to any conditions beyond those implied by copyright law and first-use/right of first sale doctrines." is not going to help the lawyers. It removes them from the process, and a good thing too.

    Yes, this sounds like a good idea on the surface, yes? But it is just asking for trouble. The laws as they are can be screwed up. And sure, some change might be due. But who are you asking to institute this change? CONGRESS?! heh, I think not.

    Perhaps this is a good idea: State laws, a proposition or referendum proposing to void EULA validity? Then at least the PEOPLE get to write the law, etc.

    Because you know congress will sneak in some backdoor that just makes us all worse off than we were before.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
    1. Re:No new laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're still forgetting the close italic tags... Go home and get some sleep.

  73. Coffee Talk.... by Asprin · · Score: 1
    Ironically, in a quick survey of several apps on my hard drive, Microsoft is the only one that consistently provides version of the EULA I can peruse after the installation brain-cloud clears. I have no idea if this is the same one I OK'd during install, nor whether it's the one MS considers to be 'current'. (I assume most publishers put a clause in their EULA/shrink-wrap license that lets them change the terms of the agreement -- I don't know, I never read the damn things...) In fact for MS, the EULA is a text file which can easily and untraceably be modified to suit rapidly changing 'market conditions'. For example, my C:\WINDOWS\EULA.TXT is like, two lines:
    Microsoft Windows 98 EULA - Win98 is freeware now, so make lots of copies and give it away to whoever the hell you want, we don't care because we're too busy drinking coffee and listening to grunge rock. Sincerely, Bill.
    [Heh, heh, heh - good ollll' notepad!]

    The point is, that as long as EULAs are click-through vapordocs that cease to exist after the installer finishes, and as long as the companies in question continue to change them as the mood strikes, why the heck should I be burdened with essentially memorizing them to be sure I am in compliance? Do they keep their EULAs on file to prove my example above is bogus?

    Anyone remember a case where EULAs have been tested in court?

    Discuss.....
    --
    "Lawyers are for sucks."
    - Doug McKenzie
  74. At least Kazaa dosent try to sell me a mimi camera by taya0001 · · Score: 0

    I dont want a camera

  75. Pree Installed Software by ThePilgrim · · Score: 2

    Most of what I've read so far in this discussion is about click through licences, which is fair enougth.

    However what I'am wondering is, am I bound by any licencing aggrement on any software that comes pre-installed on my PC.

    I never signed or clicked an agrement, nor did I openn a package, so do I have to abide by any licence agrement I find with the Machine.

    --
    Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
  76. Making lawyers look good by inKubus · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I love lawyers. They have the right idea. They make a lot of money and don't work hard. If you're smart enough, you can not work hard and make a lot of money too.

    I can't believe, for instance, people get paid 65k a year to write "Visual Basic" "code". But someone has to I guess. I guess.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
  77. I hate spyware. by i_am_pi · · Score: 1

    The idiots at my school continuously shove spyware on, things like gator, BonziBUDDY, and the like. My best friend is ad-aware :)

    Of course, there's usually the teachers taht watch over your shoulder to see if you're installing anything and go to shout at you if you are. :(

    Pi

  78. Audiogalaxy!! by GePS · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't understand why someone would use a large general-file-sharing app when all they want is music. If you download the audiogalaxy client, you get access to a far superior collection, and with creative searches, find anything for download.

  79. Grrrr... by BlackGriffen · · Score: 2

    From the article: "Congress is examining bundled software and related issues. In 1999, and again in 2001, Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., introduced legislation to force spyware distributors to get permission and notify people with a detailed description of the information they're collecting. No committee has picked up the bill, but broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C."

    Watch this jack-@ss like a hawk! Who here wants to bet he's going to tack the SSSCA on to this thing, call it a, "Consumer privacy bill," and try to sneak it in that way? I wouldn't trust that man to be a janitor in city hall.

    Another thing that I just love that they mention are the, "modify without notice or consent," clauses. Does that mean that if they change the contract to, "By clicking I agree, you agree to be an indentured servant for not less than 10, and not more than 10000 years," it's legally binding? An agreement, by it's very nature, cannot be modified without consent of both parties involved, or it isn't an agreement.

    BlackGriffen

  80. Is Brilliant Entertainment Violating RICO Statutes by ausoleil · · Score: 1

    Brilliant is planning to make money off of your computer, software (since most people use Windows, it's fair to assume that they paid for OS, right???) and energy (hey, that fan costs money to power up and make noise...) and compensating you by essentially giving you a piece of software and a system that enables you to commit a crime, that is, violate copyrights by transferring music, movies and whatever else. Seems to be an interesting yet clear violation of the RICO act, if you think of it. Perhaps John Ashcroft might send THEM a piece of legalese to read.

    Anyway you expect a corporation that wants to make money using your capital, connectivity and energy to be straightforward about it? Get real.

  81. I can attest to this by Raul654 · · Score: 1

    I installed that crap on my XP box (don't worry, M$ didn't make a dime off of me :-p), and my machine hit a nice brick wall. P4-1.4, 256 megs of ram, and it often took around 15 seconds to wake from "standby". I had to annihilate my windows installation and start over to fix the problem.

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
  82. EZ stands for "easy", idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I filled out one of those 1040 EZ forms this year.. they're really, really easy to read. So the comparision & the graph in that article are kind of pointless.

  83. Just get drunk by CoreyG · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If it's true that you can't enter a legally binding agreement while drunk, just pound a few brews before clicking "I agree." Time to go install some more software...

    1. Re:Just get drunk by mozkill · · Score: 1

      LOL... ok... that made me laugh. who cares if it installs spyware anyway? i just run adaware once every few days, and go about my merry business. its not like i am not doing anything illegal myself, in using their software.

      its like telling someone that they shouldn't rob banks when you rob 7-elevens for a living... who has the better credibility here?

      anyways, when it comes down to it, beer is always good...

      --

      -- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
    2. Re:Just get drunk by dpreviti · · Score: 1

      /obligitory Homer quote

      Beer, the cause of, and solution to, all of lifes problems.

      /homer

  84. Wipe it clean. by tripletwentie · · Score: 1

    If I never had to delete a another spam mail or remove another spyware program in my life, I wouldn't know what to do with myself.

    Here's an article describing a method to manually removing it.

    Now I just need to teach my little cousin how to follow these instructions.

    --damn it's nice out, what am I doing on a computer?--

  85. On The Article's Mention of Gator... by SloppyElvis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The article seems to want to make the distinction between spyware and adware, stating that adware has legitimate purposes, and that it informs users of its intent in a clear manner.

    As one example, they describe in brief the software Gator uses to obtain marketing demographic information about you:

    Does an uninvited guest keep knocking on your door saying, 'Hi! I'm here!'?" he asked rhetorically, describing Gator's multiple disclosures and the icon of alligator eyes that appears whenever the program is running. "No. We are invited guests on the desktop and even pop up a fourth modal screen saying, 'Your Gator software is here.' And since our e-wallet software helps users every day fill out forms, we constantly come back and have an ongoing relationship with our customers."

    Well, the other week I ran RegMon on my XP box (wait, RegMon uses system-level hooks, doesn't it? That might be against the XP EULA) Anyway, I monitored my registry access, and aside from seeing expected system activity, I noticed a number of references to www.gator.com, checking for the presense of various applications of my computer. I have never knowingly agreed to have gator software installed on my machine (though I may have clicked Agree in some agreement where it was buried in legal speak). It does not appear in the "Remove Software" control in XP. Further, despite what the above quote suggests, gator eyes do not appear in my taskbar, and I have not seen a single modal dialog telling me gator is looking through my registry.

    My guess is that gator was either bundled with my machine (Sony Vaio), or entered my machine piggy-backed onto another app that I did agree to install.

    The app that believe sold my info to gator is AudioGalaxy satellite, a file sharing app ala Kazaa.

    As an aside, I also noticed some registry activity from bundled virus software on my machine that I supposedly disabled; has hijacking my machine become an industry standard?

    The question is not if you're being watched; the question is who is watching you!

  86. Testing EULA by ruvreve · · Score: 2

    Has anybody ever contested the 'legal' wording of a EULA? I realize that legal mumbo jumbo can be extremely hard to decipher for non-hardvard graduates but could these EULAs be so 'complex' that even lawyers have trouble determining what is actually being said and what is legally binding by said EULA?

  87. Thank god... by peter_gzowski · · Score: 2

    From article:

    broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C.

    Thank god somebody the /. community trusts is on the case...

    The Federal Trade Commission has received complaints about the software, though it won't say how many or for which programs.

    Why on earth not? Why wouldn't the FTC notify consumers of potentially dangerous software?

    The article recommends Ad-Aware (that's good), but doesn't say anything about KaZaA Lite (ooh, that's bad).

    --
    "Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
  88. Many people download Kazaa at work by SIGFPE · · Score: 2
    What happens to the contract that employees apparently agree with Brilliant?

    The computer I use at work belongs to my employer. I have no rights to offer its use to another company. IANAL, but presumably

    1. as I have no right to give away my employer's CPU time I am in violation of the contract if I download the application and
    2. whether or not I'm allowed to agree to the contract I will be offering my employer's CPU time by downloading the app

    so it seems to me that both Brilliant and my employer would have good cases against me.


    Would a lawyer care to comment?

    --
    -- SIGFPE
    1. Re:Many people download Kazaa at work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as I have no right to give away my employer's CPU time I am in violation of the contract if I download the application

      If you have no right to give away your employer's CPU time, you can't download a filesharing application anyway.

    2. Re:Many people download Kazaa at work by SIGFPE · · Score: 2

      If you have no right to give away your employer's CPU time, you can't download a filesharing application anyway

      1. Many employers are happy to allow employees a limited amount of time for recreational use. Employees don't have a right but it may be tolerated. However that privilege may not extend to granting complete strangers use of your CPU.
      2. It may turn out that I legitimately need to obtain a file for my work duties and that the easiest way to obtain it is by using Kazaa.
      --
      -- SIGFPE
  89. Spyware by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think I have discovered yet another effect of cydoor. As you know, cydoor is installed with kazaa. Once some months ago, I noticed that IE6 and or OE6 crashed when I tried to use the keyboard under unknown conditions. I decided to reinstall windows XP without further looking. Some reinstalls later, I found what was responsible for the crashes : they occured ONLY when kazaa was running, and yet more often when kazaa was not running minimized. One month ago, I found a dummy dll to replace cydoor's cd_clint.dll but only returning dummy values, without spying on me. Since then, not once did IE6 or OE6 crash ever again. To me it is obvious that cydoor is trying to keylog on me, and gets blocked by either windoze XP, either by zonealarm. Do you have more info on the matter ? Isn't this perfectly illegal ? (I do netbanking from that computer). Hasn't the boss of cydoor been involved in creditcard fraud ?

  90. What a shame by Ed+Avis · · Score: 2
    From the article:
    Negative publicity in the wake of the Brilliant-Kazaa controversy has some industry veterans worried that consumers will switch from mindlessly clicking "I agree" to staunchly refusing to accept terms of service.
    All together now: boo hoo.
    --
    -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  91. And In Other News� by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The general public realizes that windoze is C R A P W A R E.

    "film at eleven"

  92. Wonderful quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "I don't think that companies should have the right to spy on you without your actual permission, but I think it will be hard...to prosecute companies who do engage in this type of practice if you have actually clicked on an agreement that gives them permission."

    G.W. Bush's lawyer, by any chance?

  93. IT IS MOOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yes, moot... you'd not have to worry about this sort of crap gettting pulled on you IF you'd use a decent OS in the first place and NOT some goddamn slimecode masquerading as an OS.

    of course, i am referring to that total travesty of an OS that is made by that techno-mafia, that criminal company known as MicroSLOP.

    fuck all you DAMNED idiots that use that SHIT...

    ctrl alt delete your stupid asses. thanks.

    1. Re:IT IS MOOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, thank you for the tip! I always wanted to see process memory and cpu usage. Crank that brower up to HIGHEST priority, baby!

  94. KaZaA network without the spyware... by issachar · · Score: 1
    of course you could always get the KaZaA network without any spyware by using Grokster and following the instruction on this site.

    I haven't fully checked it out, but I just installed it and it seems to work as promised. I'm due for a re-format anyway. (It's been over 8 months) ;)

    --
    . --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
  95. Ummm... by Zone5 · · Score: 1

    Maybe you're not familiar with the notion of capitalism, but the only point of ANY company is to make money (not-for-profit companies aside, obviously).

    --
    "So on one hand, honey is an amazingly sophisticated and efficient food source. On the other hand it's bee backwash."
    1. Re:Ummm... by burts_here · · Score: 1
      yeah i know, what amazes me is that people are supprised when these companys turn around and treat them like crap.

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    2. Re:Ummm... by Zone5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I agree. People really shouldn't be surprised. But just to straddle the fence a little bit, just because we are in a capitalist system doesn't give companies moral authority to do whatever the hell sneaky crap they like in the name of profits. Sure they may legally be in the right, but I doubt many people other than slimy lawyers would agree with that assessment. Catch-22?

      --
      "So on one hand, honey is an amazingly sophisticated and efficient food source. On the other hand it's bee backwash."
    3. Re:Ummm... by burts_here · · Score: 1
      morals

      i think we might have lost that battle with the multinationals.

      --
      Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
    4. Re:Ummm... by shyster · · Score: 2
      Maybe you're not familiar with the notion of capitalism, but the only point of ANY company is to make money (not-for-profit companies aside, obviously).

      That's why laws are and should be passed to protect consumers from companies...not the other way around.

  96. Did anyone else notice the reference to the CBDTPA by MrEfficient · · Score: 2
    Congress is examining bundled software and related issues. In 1999, and again in 2001, Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., introduced legislation to force spyware distributors to get permission and notify people with a detailed description of the information they're collecting. No committee has picked up the bill, but broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C.

    Oh, so now it's "Internet Privacy Legislation"? They make the bill out to be a good thing and completely skip over it's real purpose. Please, while you're educating people about the dangers of spyware, educate them about the real purpose of this bill and why it should be stopped. See the EFF webiste for more information.

    --
    Check out AbiWord.
  97. Re:And the public cried... and Kazaa listened. by Combuchan · · Score: 2
    If one local store started making you sign a EULA to shop there, I'd stop shopping there, but if they ALL started doing it then what choice do you have? It's at that point that legal protections are the balancing factor.

    At that point, one store could of course come up and have you sign no EULA or perhaps one that is comprehensible by Agnes End-Shopper. And this Store will reign Supreme o'er Stores that confuse their Shoppers, demonstrating once again the Power of Capitalism. That is, until the other stores realise the idiocy of their moves and abolish the EULA or work something else out entirely.

    Which brings me to my next point: Companies that do stupid things (like Kazaa is doing now) ultimately pay the price for their idiocy (Enron, et. al.) and either change their policies accordingly or nothing happens, proving that their userbase might just not care about what's going on with their own software. Never underestimate the apathy of people, and don't gauge their concern on what a vocal minority says.

    And Kazaa is learning, but nowhere in this story do I see the following quote from Kazaa's front page about their "new pledge."
    Your privacy is important to us. Read this easy overview of the things we are working on to make what you do on the Net your business.

    If you disagree, reply.
    --
    "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
  98. Informed Concent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "Patients who are very sick can be given a 3,000-word consent form written by lawyers with the same level of complexity as these privacy notices," Hochhauser said. "The sick people usually just sign it without reading it because their doctor said it was OK."

    Actually, doctors have something called "informed concent." If the patient doesn't understand what he's being asked to agree to, he is not allowed to agree to it. The doctor has to figure out how to explain the procedure in English.

    I don't know whether unreadable contracts hold up in court or not. With so many lawyers around, though, I'll bet that they think they can make them work.
  99. This.... by SomeOtherGuy · · Score: 2

    Reminds me of the corrupt taxi cab driver that (upon a getaway ride) drives the bank robber to a secluded area and holds him up....

    --
    (+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
  100. Nice job... by rnturn · · Score: 2
    ``The result is a three-paragraph statement that Chief Marketing Officer Scott Eagle calls a "kindergarten version" of the full policy.''

    Say, Scott, I wonder how many of the customers that your company depends on would appreciate your insult? If you can't get people to accept using your product unless it's real purpose is hidden in umpty-ump pages of legalese then you have a problem. Don't insult the computer user who hasn't got the time or the inclination to decypher the dense verbiage in your EULA.

    Of course, perhaps you need to resort to legalistic trickery buried in your EULA since you have problems actually marketing your product any other way. Probably has something to do with referring to potential users as ``kindergarteners''.

    Jeez...

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  101. Beating a dead horse: a karma bonfire. by tempest303 · · Score: 2

    I'm still amazed at the "outrage" over this stuff. I mean, people download this software for *free*, so you can use it to TAKE songs/movies/etc without paying for them, against the wills of the creators!

    Kazaa users, cry me a fucking river about your privacy... this whole thing reminds me of the guy who sucessfully sued the people whose house he broke into because he broke his leg falling down the stairs because of some crap he tripped on... The people he sued were ruled "negligent" because they left stuff on the stairs. Please.

    --
    The Free desktop that Just Works
    1. Re:Beating a dead horse: a karma bonfire. by pipeb0mb · · Score: 1
      this whole thing reminds me of the guy who sucessfully sued the people whose house he broke into because he broke his leg falling down the stairs because of some crap he tripped on... The people he sued were ruled "negligent" because they left stuff on the stairs. Please.


      link please.
    2. Re:Beating a dead horse: a karma bonfire. by rnturn · · Score: 2
      ``...sued the people whose house he broke into because he broke his leg falling down the stairs because of some crap he tripped on...''

      Yah. The rule of thumb is (I think) that when you shoot the guy who's broken into the house and is raping your daughter, make sure you empty the revolver into him. If all you do is wound him and he survives he'll sue you.

      I wish I could find a reference for my favorite legal atrocity: Inmates escape from prison. They're at large for weeks. When finally caught, at least one of them sues the state for the `mental anguish' he suffered while on the lam. (I guess the fear of being captured would be awfully stressful.) The state loses the suit.

      I guess we can't expect all judges to have the wisdom of Solomon. But why the heck do so many seem to have less common sense than Homer Simpson?

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  102. in other news... by tongue · · Score: 2

    Consumers today realized the sky is blue. Film at 11.

  103. however... by edrugtrader · · Score: 2

    ...general public still not exactlly sure what spyware is...

    --
    MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
  104. Yes, this been going on for ages by shario · · Score: 1
    Yeah, why should a doctor be curing their patients if he can send them to unneeded tests and scans and make some extra $$$. Why should a cop arrest a criminal if he can get a nice bribe for letting him go. Why should I keep a door open for elderly if I can mug them instead. Why not to stab my friends in the back if they are so STUPID to turn their back to me.

    The inability to understand that a human society is based on trust is one of the problems that are faced by a sociopath.

    But more probably you were just joking, and I didn't get it.

  105. Thieves and Eavesdroppers can't complain by Dragoness+Eclectic · · Score: 5, Interesting


    I wonder if anyone has reverse-engineered BDE's protocols yet? It would be a damn shame, wouldn't it, if their surreptiously installed thiefware should inadvertantly retrieve data containing a destructive worm as a payload, or if their computations were all skewed just enough to still be plausible, but uselessly wrong, or if the client on some computer that their server connected to wasn't quite the client they originally installed, and had unfortunate effects on said server....

    Eavesdroppers can't complain if what they hear is unflattering, and thieves can't complain if the stuff they stole is dangerous to them.

    --
    ---dragoness
  106. 65-year-old Kazaa user? by ChaosDiscordSimple · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think the fact that Kazaa has 65 year old users is the real news here. Clearly file sharing has become mainstream if grandmothers are using it.

  107. Re:At least Kazaa dosent try to sell me a mimi cam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, but it's not a camera... It's a ***mini*** camera! And didjya look at that hottie on the ad? Boo-yah! I wants to take see-kret pictures of hotties in my neighbourhood just like her!

  108. EULAs by ZaneMcAuley · · Score: 2

    EULAs arnt written for the CONSUMER, they are written for the LAWYERS and ENTERPRISES.

    --
    ----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
  109. Volatile storage by Mulletproof · · Score: 1

    We all know and love companies who bury spyware agreements under a 5 million page EULA, but this is what I'm wondering... Say you agree to Brilliant's distributing networking deal and they start to use your computer for storage and bandwidth. What happens if I all of a sudden decide I hate Kazaa after a few months of use and burn it off my hard drive? Does a chunk of that of a compnaies valued information disappear? "Sorry, Jim, I can't get you those budget numbers because a Kazaa user formatted his HD..." You'd hope it gets backed up somewhere, somehow. The bandwidth is cool, but information storage on private computers strikes me as slightly risky, not to mention the insane hacking possibilities of said storage.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  110. How to uninstall Brilliant Digital software.. by NeoCode · · Score: 1

    CNET news has an article on how to remove Brilliant Digital software.. .
    Story here.

  111. Tax forms by John+Sullivan · · Score: 1
    the complexity of IRS tax forms with Brilliant's terms of use... guess which one is harder to read?

    Hardly surprising if not pleasant. The tax office want you to pay the tax you owe, which you'll only do if you can understand how much tax you owe. Spyware people *don't* want you to understand what you getting yourself into, they want you to just ignore the terms and click I Agree.

    --
    This is my World Wide Web of Whatever
  112. I use Kazaa Lite. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For those of you who've never used the FastTrack network over a high speed connection, it's like crack. I've finally gotten a CD burner for Christmas (eek!) and I've gone through my first platter of 50 CD's downloading DivX movies. Once you start you can't stop.

    In my experience FastTrack in its various incarnations beats up any other system for large files, in the sense that you'll get the file you want about 10 times faster on FastTrack than Gnutella/Bearshare/whathaveyou. Whether this is because of it's popularity or something superior about the network is debatable. FastTrack has downloads from multiple sources, partial downloads, resumable downloads, and seems extremely scalable to over 1 million simultaneous users (1.6 petabytes of data last I checked). The net has deemed KaZaa to be Scour's replacement.

    I actually ran KaZaa fully aware that it had spyware, becuase FastTrack was that damn good. As soon as I found KaZaa Lite I switched and never looked back.

    KaZaa lite appears to be what it claims, KaZaa with ads and spyware removed (with a neutered version of Cydoor, which KaZaa "requires" to function).

    So Kazaa Lite stays on my machine 24/7 for now...

  113. Ummmm.... by dynoman7 · · Score: 1

    ...article compares the complexity of IRS tax forms with Brilliant's terms of use... guess which one is harder to read?

    As an implementer of IRS tax systems, I can, unfortunately, report that the former is definitely more complex.

    --
    Blarf.
  114. So what about MY terms of use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So say for a moment that we accept EULAs as binding. Well it works both ways doesn't it? What if the next time I download something, I use Proxomitron or some such to add the following "Software Vendor License Agreement" to my HTTP headers:

    X-Software-Vendor-License-Agreement: By responding affirmatively to this request, you agree to waive any restrictions on the use of the returned data beyond those prohibiting unauthorized distribution as explicitly imposed by copyright law. You hereby authorize the circumvention of any access control mechanism on said data as defined by 17 USC Chapter 12 Section 1201 (the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act") if it is necessary to make fair use of the software. You agree that any subsequent EULAs or similar terms of use are null and void. In particular, you agree that my clicking "I agree" or "I accept" does not constitute agreement to any such terms, even if it is a necessary step in making fair use of the software. If you do not agree to these terms, then terminate this network connection now.

    It isn't my problem if their web server is too dumb to parse this and respond appropriately. After all, if EULAs were binding, they would be just as binding if I had a tool that automatically clicked Yes without showing them to me. Hey, they got off easy. I could have been really nasty and thrown in "You agree to waive all future copyright protection and put any data that you return immediately and irrevocably into the public domain." It's no worse than what what routinely goes into those "agreements".

  115. Which one is harder to read? by gambit3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "Fortunately the helpful graph in the article compares the complexity of IRS tax forms with Brilliant's terms of use... guess which one is harder to read?"

    Having done both more that once, I still hold that the Financial Aid Application (FAFSA: http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/preappwk.htm) is harder than the IRS OR the Not-so-Brilliant one. Here's a quote:

    If your parents have divorced or separated, answer the questions about the parent you lived with more during the past 12 months. If you did not live with one parent more than the other, give answers the parent who provided more financial support during the last 12 months, or during the most recent year that you actually were supported by a parent. (You will be providing information about one person.) If this parent has remarried as of today, answer the questions on the rest of this form about that parent and the person whom your parent married. (You will be providing information about two people.)

    --
    Watch the Teaser Trailer for "The Lightning Thief" Her
  116. What about after uninstall? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > is a yes/no button a legally binding clause?

    Even if it is, Morpheus' preview edition continued to run spyware on my computer even after uninstall.

    I should really HOPE that the contract terminates when the software uninstalls.

  117. Retaliate? by upshift · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wouldn't it be great to take AdAware to the next level? I'd call it retaliation-ware. Figure out what the scum-ware is looking for and send bogus data. I wish I had the time for it.

    Upshift

  118. Define "unused" by Xunker · · Score: 3

    ..I as because I, like so many others, have a client for a distributed computing project installed on the PCs that I use regularly. In my case it's the Dnet OGR client, and it runs in super nice mode, sucking up any spare cycles that fall through the other processes. In this scenario, techically, almost all of my CPU time (with the exception of a micron here or there) is used.

    Not, I don't know how brilliant's distributed system works, but if it's like any others it will do the same thing as my Dnet client and put itself in the lowest priority group, right next to my Dnet client which means that they will be splitting the remaining cycles -- yet these are not cycles that were unused, they are cycles one client too from another I had previously installed!

    --
    Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
  119. methinks kazaalite.com has been slashdotted by Cornelius+the+Great · · Score: 1

    I tried to go to the site and received the following error:

    Warning: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site2/fst/var/www/html/nuke/pnado db/adodb-mysql.inc.php on line 106


    Does anyone else know where I could find Kazaa lite?

    --
    Sigs are for losers
    1. Re:methinks kazaalite.com has been slashdotted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.kazaalite.tk/

      Links section has more sites.

  120. Unfortunately... by beleg777 · · Score: 1

    you're using common sense. In America theives can complain if they get hurt trying to steal. Haven't you ever heard of the robber who cut himself on someones kitchen knife and sued? (that might not have been the exact story, but you know what I mean) Stupid legal system. If only they paid more attention to intent.

    --

    Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
  121. That's funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now that's funny. The product still has Cydoor. Even on the "lite" version. Which is still spyware.

    Get Lavasoft Adware and you can removed the cydoor, but it disables the program entirely.

    1. Re:That's funny by Kriekbot · · Score: 1

      This whole story is old news. the general public have known about it since kaza came out. There isnt a P2P alive on the net that doesnt have spyware. *Suprise* *Suprise* Kaza does also. As far as allowing brillant to turn your computer into a network node. Just dont use kaza. Simple as that. Infact dont use any P2P unless you want to have someone looking at yor comupter. Hello? It's a part of having something "free" to offer to the public.

      --
      The unexamined life is not worth living
  122. Instead of more laws, education. by tshak · · Score: 2

    Why not educate consumers so that they can PROTECT THEMSELVES instead of relying on the government every time?

    --

    There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
  123. EULA rhymes with... by Pvt_Waldo · · Score: 1

    Fool ya.

  124. For End-Users, GPL is Simple by jck2000 · · Score: 1

    CynicTheHedgehog wrote:

    Generally speaking, the GPL and its close relatives don't get much flack from the SlashDot crowd. In essence they are EULAs, using the same legalistic and hard-to-understand languages as their distant proprietary cousins, but they are accepted, tolerated--even welcome in our community.

    Little of the GPL regulates _use_ of the software subject to it, rather than _redistribution_, thus most end-users have little to be concerned about. Thus, I think that the GPL is a very simple license from the perspective of an end-user that did not wish to redistribute.

    For an end-user, about the only interesting portion of the GPL is the non-warranty/disclaimer of liability, and almost every piece of widely distributed software (GPL, commercial or whatever) has some form of non-warranty, so the GPL is not too unusual in that regard. (Also, I would doubt that the non-warranty would provide complete protection against liability for the creator of intentionally malicious software.)

    Even for a redistributor, including a redistributor of derivative works, the GPL is pretty simple -- to each person to whom you distribute the software or a derivative work, provide the source, including the "new" source of the derivative work, licensed under the GPL.

    The complexities of the GPL generally arise in contexts in which someone -- generally a commercial enterprise having access to lawyers -- is intentionally attempting to employ GPL'd software in a potential derivative work without GPL'ing it (for instance, situations involving plugins or web services).

  125. Kazaa Lite Mirrors by Jaiden · · Score: 0

    Kazaa lite 1.6 (english) mirror locations

    http://utenti.lycos.it/hibsen/kazaa_lite_160_fin al . xe
    http://chat.musiccity.com/dl/kazaa_lite_160_fi nal. exe
    http://mitglied.lycos.de/henrikibsen/kazaa_li te_16 0_final.exe
    http://s19p448.server19.y-w-s.de/Kaza alite/kazaa_l ite_160_final.exe
    http://www.myphpbb.de/Kazaalite /kazaa_lite_160_fin al.exe
    http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Egugtenhw/files/kaz aa_lite_ 160_final.exe
    http://www.awvwedstrijdzwemmen.nl/k azaalite/kazaa_ lite_160_final.exe
    ftp://ftp.pooterman.com/kazaa_ lite_160_final.exe
    http://www.pooterman.com/kazaa _lite_160_final.exe
    http://www.kazaalite.com/modu les.php?op=modload&na me=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&li d=17&ttitle=Kazaalite_Version_1.6.0_FINAL_English

    --
    this sig has been rated E for Everyone.
  126. That Nefarious part of the Terms by ahde · · Score: 2

    [tapping into] "unused computing power and storage space"

    is specifically what Kaaza is designed to do.

    " they had unwittingly agreed to install software that could help turn their computers into nodes for a peer-to-peer network controlled by another company. "

    that's the same as saying someone who installs IIS unwittingly agreed to install software that could publish documents on the internet for everyone to read. Of course most people do install IIS unwittingly, and thanks to the many vulnerabilities, you'll probly be publishing more than you intended to.

    That specific part of the Terms that cnet holds up as bad is the *necessary* and desired part of kaaza. Granted, they do some sneaky stuff on the side, but they don't call it a "file sharing" program for no reason.

  127. Yes, but there's an extra step by BillX · · Score: 1

    My understanding is that the BDE component is embedded in the homepage Kazaa tries to load as its main window, and may try to auto-install (with the help of poor security settings...or Kazaa?). The Kazaa Lite docs will instruct you to add certain domains to your HOSTS file so your computer cannot communicate with them (i.e. download the BDE components).

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  128. Yes. by BillX · · Score: 1

    http://cexx.org/cd_clint.zip

    This is the dummy file Kazaa Lite bundles.

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  129. Clean It by tripletwentie · · Score: 1

    Here's an article describing a method to manually removing it [yahoo.com].

  130. Re:Kazaa Lite is still KaZaA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even if you don't install their spyware you're still helping Sharman Networks (way more evil than M$ - just not as powerful yet) to expand their user base and the files shared over FastTrack. Not installing the spyware costs them like a few pennies at most, but you being on their network improves it and helps them attract like 50-100 more users. The only solution we have is to boycott KaZaA/FastTrack altogether.

    I've switched over to Gnutella (open, cross-platform, multi-vendor network), and been using FreeWire recently (GPL'ed ad-free LimeWire fork), Gnucleus is pretty good too and getting better fast (it's like one hardcore hacker so development is a bit slow), hell even use BearShare if you want but fsck KaZaA.

  131. Re:MS -- spyware verified? by Reziac · · Score: 2

    You don't believe M$ makes spyware? Read this:

    I recently bought and installed TurboTax on my Win98 machine. TTax forcibly installed IE5.5, want it or not. (Making that the LAST Intuit product I'll *ever* buy. IE5.5 has since been evicted, along with TTax.)

    When I finally got the mess straightened out (it hosed all my internet settings in the process) and went online (using Netscape as always; IE is *never* allowed outdoors), guess what the FIRST ding reported by ZoneAlarm was:

    FWIN,2002/04/13,18:47:40 -8:00 GMT,207.46.203.94:28801,67.219.145.160:2364,TCP

    For the benefit of those who don't speak ZA logfilese, that's type,date,time,source,destination,transport

    Check out 207.46.203.94 at your neighbourhood WHOIS -- that IP is owned by Microsoft.

    Now, would anyone like to explain what business M$ has probing MY computer? Or why it happened within seconds of the first time the system went online AFTER this forced install of IE5.5??

    Not to mention that IE5.5 had apparently gone around ZA -- never did IE (nor any Win98 component) *ask* to access the net. Tho I've previously *caught* Frontpage98 going around ZA, so am not really surprised :(

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  132. Re:The sky is falling! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gee, what a surprise. Someone doesn't express outrage at this and they're labeled "flamebait."

    I repeat. BIG. HAIRY. DEAL. So fucking what? There's spyware in Kazaa. OH NO WHAT WILL WE DO? OH NO WHY ISN'T EVERYONE OUTRAGED BY THIS? Because everyone else isn't a frickin hyperventilating slashdot reader who gets his panties in a wad every time something happens with a non-linux piece of software. Get the fuck over it. I use Kazaa knowing full well what it's got in it and you know what has happened as a result? I grabbed a bunch of music and game docs. Big deal.

  133. Wow. by Jouster · · Score: 1
    "I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever a dialog box comes up and says, 'Do you want to do this,' bells go off and people become worried." --Robert Regular, vice president of sales and marketing at digital advertising firm Cydoor.

    God forbid, people actually check what it does before clicking yes.

    Jouster
  134. FUD about Canada by spells · · Score: 1

    I have heard this about Canada previously on Slashdot. Please provide a link about crown ownership. I have searched the government's website and reviewed the Constitution Acts of 1867 and 1982 and have not found a single reference to Crown ownership. In the Constitution Act, 1867, it clearly states that property rights are in each individual province's jurisdiction, so I find it extremely hard to believe that the Crown "owns everything" Unless you have proof, please do not continue spreading this piece of Canadian FUD.

    1. Re:FUD about Canada by Occasional+Poster · · Score: 1

      This isn't a piece of Canadian FUD. I'm not sure if there's a link to this information, but if you're that interested, you might consider picking up a basic Canadian business law text. The Crown in Canada does own all the land. Your "title" just makes you a "tenant in fee simple" if I remember the term correctly. This piece of arcane British verbiage gives you the right to do quite a bit with the property, but doesn't give you mineral rights in some provinces. It also makes it much easier for governments to pass zoning laws, and expropriate land for public purposes like roads (with compensation). Its not easy to find much on this topic because, in practice, the titles are bought and sold much as they are in the States, so nobody pays much attention to it.

  135. Smoking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Excellent, Now if only they would catch on to smoking.

  136. Integrity? what's that? by Mulletproof · · Score: 1

    "If they were so committed to telling people, why the hell didn't they?

    Because they are lying asses all the way to the bank. Xarfel nailed it. If all this spyware and theftware is so innocent and harmless as these companies claim, why don't they just come right out and tell you about it? Winamp does when you install it. It tells you up front that it monitors what you play and stream for anonomous statistical compiling, allowing you to opt-in or out. Why the difference in philosophies? Gee, kinda makes you wonder what, exactly they're hiding or why it takes an act of God fess up to it. And Kazaa saying "Oh, by the way, we installed software without your knowledge or permission that turns part of you computer into a virtual whore in addition to all the spyware we've added. We know you'll like this extra stuff, so we buried any mention of it five million lines down in a cryptic nigh-indesiphierable EULA for those without a degree in law. Enjoy your "free" music!" Now THAT generates consumer loyalty.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  137. WebHancer and New.net by BillX · · Score: 1

    A number of the recent unwanted products (I refer to them as "foistware") will tamper with the Winsock stack, such that attempting to remove the cancerware will break the system. WebHancer and New.net install as LSPs (Layered Service Providers), making traffing route through them like links in a chain. Then the users (98%) who didn't see it in the license agreement find it running, say "Where in the @#$% did this come from?", and delete it. And there goes their Internet access.

    (Of course, in the case of New.net the majority of problems used to come not from people deleting it, but a bug in the program's auto-update. New.net assures that these were just teething problems and have been fixed, but if so, that was one hell of a teething period.)

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  138. Kazaa lite's death? by martissimo · · Score: 1

    it appears that Sharman Networks now knows about Kazaa Lite, and is determined to shut it down.

    I have a feeling there will be a interesting series of modifications to their network like the ones that eliminated Morpheous soon. It seems a better plan than the legal action hinted at here

  139. Here's to uninformed desision making! Cheers! by Mulletproof · · Score: 1

    He acually said that?! You gotta be kidding! HA! That line should be taught to every car salesman across the USA! "I would hate to think we could reach a point that, whenever you walk on to a car lot and you had to decide 'Do you want this', bells go off and people become worried."

    I would also wonder what he has to say about not being given the choice to uninstall spyware when you uninstall the parent program... "If we gave people the choice to uninstall out programs when they uninstalled the parent, they might become worried and..." Well, you get the rest.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  140. Sen. Fritz Hollings Wants to protect our privacy? by fahrvergnugen · · Score: 2

    In 1999, and again in 2001, Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., introduced legislation to force spyware distributors to get permission and notify people with a detailed description of the information they're collecting. No committee has picked up the bill, but broader consumer notice and privacy concerns are showing up in a compromise Internet privacy legislation soon to be introduced by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C.

    Does anyone know what this paragraph is referring to? Is this more unadulterated evil, a "compromise" version of the SSSCA-type bills, or is this (*snort*) something that could actually be beneficial? Can someone point me to more information about this legislation-to-be?

    --
    Even Jesus hates listening to Creed.
  141. Comet Cursor and Movie Networks by Renraku · · Score: 2

    I was sitting here on Slashdot, Tom's Hardware and AntiOnline, reading up on my usual sources of info. Comet cursor pops up. I wait for the cancel button to appear as I curse at it for being lame. No cancel button. A progress bar. The comet cursor icon appears in my task bar. It didn't even ask me if I wanted to install. It just installed. No licence agreement or anything. Movie Networks did the same thing with their software. And some antiviral program did that as well, and yet, there's no licences that I see before they install, do they just assume that I've said yes? Is this even legal at all? That's like a company breaking into your house and inserting its dangerous products, such as, "Gasoline-In-A-Coke-Can" and "Bag-o-Rattlesnakes! (tm)"

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
  142. How Much Can You Find Out? by 4of12 · · Score: 2

    Ignoring for the moment all of the justifiable outrage about invasions of privacy, etc. I got to wondering:

    How much information and profiling can you do with Spyware?
    It seems that with microphones and webcams it should be possible to assemble quite a profile on a household.

    Even the easy stuff, like checking the audio to see if Joe Consumer has his TV tuned into OurAdvertiser's station, when they change the channels, whether they answer that SpamPhoneCall, what time of day people take a dump, etc.

    You could find out more about a person's life than they themselves could consciously remember.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  143. I love Bonzi Buddy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "some people actually love this steaming pile of sh*t trojan horse software"

    Bonzi Buddy kicks ass. That is the first thing I do after I install windows is download Bonzi Buddy. That and Comet Cursor.

  144. Why don't we bite back? by cdtoad · · Score: 1

    Well if BDE is being so sneaky and slick about this SNEAKWARE why don't we bite back? We need to reverse engineer the Alt Net protocols and the BDE drivers on the windows system, figure out whats going back and forth between a users computer and the AltNet and then send FAKE information, and corrupt datapackages! Next spread this program all over the web and give people some sort of reward like uninstalling the the Kazaa Spyware crap in a simple 1 click.

    How long do you think it'll take for the folks at AltNet to change something in their protocal? How much will it cost them? How much credibility will their data have to the advertisers if it's been poisoned?

    --
    when they ban enctryption only criminals wi$21*J *#JF$%!@#$':
  145. GPL is not a EULA by David+Jao · · Score: 1
    Read the parent post again. The GPL is a voluntary agreement. You do not ever have to agree to the GPL. Most of the time, you can even use GPL software without agreeing to the GPL.

    If the GPL is invalid, then all GPL software reverts to the default state of software under copyright law. This default state, however, is not what you think it is. Many people think that GPL software would revert to being fully copiable if the GPL were invalid. But, by default, software is uncopiable without specific permission, so if the GPL were invalid, all GPL software would revert to being unlicensed and uncopiable until such time as the owner chooses to relicense it.

    The GPL is not a EULA. EULA means End User Licensing Agreement. The GPL imposes no conditions on users, only on distributors. The GPL does not require you to accept the license. Finally, the GPL only grants rights, it does not take any away. And that's the reason why nobody has ever tested the GPL in court--because a successful invalidation of the GPL would only cause you to lose the GPL-granted rights, without gaining you any rights in return.

  146. Legally binding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't really see how these contracts can be legally binding - if I use a friend's computer, and install KaZaa, and just click on "yes" to get through it as quickly as possible, the software is still installed. More than one person can use the computer but only one has agreed to the license - does this mean it's illegal for them to spy on my friend? There's certainly nothing wrong with installing it on a computer which is not my own (although I haven't read the terms of service...)

  147. He's The SNL Computer Guy by krmt · · Score: 2
    I feel pity for your customers. I'll guess that you're the type of guy that always has the raised eyebrow, exclaiming about how dumb the average Joe is, while at the same time wallowing in your own ignorance.

    sigh... Move!

    Maybe he enjoys being a stereotype though.
    --

    "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

  148. A sample by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2

    Here's a sample of what the "privacy" agreement sounds like:
    "If we decide to change our privacy policy, or practices whether or not they effect our handling of personally identifiable information we will post those changes to this privacy statement, the homepage, and other places we deem appropriate so our users are always aware of what information we collect, how we use it, and under what circumstances, if any, we disclose it."
    (Yes, that is a 62-word sentence. No wonder it's impossible to understand)

  149. Which is the Lesser of the Two Evils? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    EULAs that people sign without reading, giving away their right to privacy, security, and right to compete, or bills that Congress votes for and the President signs into law, all without reading, and giving away everyone's rights?

    And we expect Congress to pass a bill to protect us? They're the masters at just these kinds of things! The only thing they'd protect is their exclusive right to do it to us first.

  150. Stripping out the blurb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alot of the software agreement clauses seem to be similar. Could the usual statements be screened out to at least make the parts unique to the product readable. You could skim out all those basic legal phrases first, then the basic legal phrases often found in the flesh of software agreements, etc.
    --KB

  151. Viva la WinMX by masterkool · · Score: 0

    It seems that most file sharing services are going down now a days. First napster, then morpheus, now Kazaa. But one contender has really heald up through the fight, WinMX. Its so great to, except for the fact that is cant pause downloads. I think the new version will though.

    --
    I once shot a man who posted too many, "Imagine a beowulf cluster of these"
  152. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kazaa Lite and the cydoor dummy dll was first started when cydoor _was_ spyware. Now it seems to have cleaned up their act somewhat, but the author/hacker behind kazaa lite isn't taking chances. Once bitten twice shy.

    ie: Kazaa Lite is against spyware not necessarily true adware.

  153. and you would be able to use by Archfeld · · Score: 2

    that data in any way you'd like I would imagine..There HAS NOT been a click thru license upheld in court YET...

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
  154. Run Kaaza on your old 486 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I say let them borrow processing time off my old 486 PC. Enjoy, feel the power....

    You got to love it.

  155. Brilliant... just brilliant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    D'jever notice that we use "brilliant" to mean "brilliant" and to mean "not brilliant" I think the guys at BDE illustrate this quite well.

    For example, assume for example, I invent the Internet. (Evidently, I am Al Gore.) You: "That is f*ckin' brilliant!" (meaning brilliant)

    Assume then, that I load spyware on everyone's computer, get major huh-busted in the press. You: "Brilliant. Really f*ckin' brilliant." (meaning not brilliant)

  156. There IS an open source solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's out there already. It's free (freedom and price - these should really, really be separated in terminology) & open software. There are open source file-sharing clients out there, aren't there!?

    In fact there are some (completely) free & open source operating systems out there.

    It's a wonderful life, isn't it? Well, no, it isn't but there are nice aspects.

  157. Concerning licenses in general by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm just posting this here as I can't start a new thread as an "Anon. Coward" and can't be arsed registering yet (plus I don't like registering with more companies/businesses than I really need to). May be redundant (and very late).

    Biggest problem with licenses is they overstate points. They repeat themselves so much so as to be clear, but end up doing the opposite and bloating their licenses. Partly the courts' faults I think. They should be reading licenses properly and not allowing ordinary people to take the piss because they can't understand some terminology or other.

    stupid people -> licenses aimed at stupid people (with stupid repetitions) -> licenses harder to read by everyone (just realised this "clause" has two meanings, both of which make sense hehe)

  158. Re:Kazaa Lite is still KaZaA... by Rakarra · · Score: 2
    Not installing the spyware costs them like a few pennies at most, but you being on their network improves it and helps them attract like 50-100 more users.

    Users only cost them money. Users generate no revenue by themselves.