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Segway Getting Real-Life Tests
EReidJ writes: "washingtonpost.com (no registration required) has an article on real-life use of the new Segway scooters, including an update on some of the safety issues and where state laws currently are with use of the Segway. (20 states have specifically passed laws to allow the Segway on sidewalks.) Interesting read."
Those of us in the northern portion of the country are still screwed. Here in Wisconsin, these things would never work on an icy sidewalk.
Anyone try riding a bicycle on ice?
An amazing technological achievment no doubt, but I'm worried about the practicality.
Dude, I think I can see my house from here.
at toll free 800-544-3746 or local 818-882-2878. Call them and find out the details. :-)
It even has a feature where you can key in your ZIP code and it will give you the nearest dealer, and ETA for shipment (avg. 6 months or so). You can also call to be put on their mailing list.
This one should work better.
...looks utterly useless.
Aren't some sidewalks (NYC, SF) crowded and dangerous enough as it is, as far as bumping into people and such?
Imagine making those everyday collisions with fellow 'pedestrians' when one of you is moving at twelve and a half miles an hour. I foresee dislocations, damaged merchandise, and god forbid one of these cops happens to do one of those fruit stand smash-ups so popular in the film industry.
I'm all for a new, efficient means of transport, but these things need their own lanes of travel, like some cities have provided for bicyclists.
sig-free as of 28 July 02!
The bottom of this /. page says
"Congratulations! You are the one-millionth user to log into our system. If there's anything special we can do for you, anything at all, don't hesitate to ask! "
Ummm... how about a dollar for each user before me
In my hometown, and older woman was killed when hit by a mountain bike. In fact, this has happened multiple times. And mountain bikes are not allowed on the sidewalk. Segways are heavier and faster than mountain bikes, this just seems really dangerous to me.
Websurfing: The Next Generation - StumbleUpon
As I understand it, you move forward by leaning foward. The segway moves forward to stay underneath you which keeps you from falling over. Like walking, it is a controlled fall. But there is also a built in speed limit, so if you lean forward too far (trying to go faster) the Segway would not be able to keep up and you would keep leaning farther until your face meets the sidewalk (presumably while going around 12 mph). Does anyone know what keeps it from doing this?
In states that haven't explicitly allowed these bugges on the sidewalks, can you use them in bikelanes? What conditions does your vehicle need to meet to be a bike? How about a moped or something of that nature- open, wheeled, anything else?
Submitted this on Tuesday night. *yawn*
2002-04-24 02:12:10 Segways on Patrol in Atlanta (articles,tech) (rejected)
Anyhow, this will either make the Segway a legitimate mainstream technology or be flagged as a $90K boondoggle during the next local election in Atlanta.
Actually, I suppose it could do both.
Popular Science also has an article that has a mini-interview with one of the mail carriers who put Segway through a real-life test for 30 days.
(and before anyone whines about their city not having enough bike lanes... here is yet another incentive to add some)
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The only people you are going to see using Segways any time soon are government employees. Why?? No one in their right mind would pay $9000 for what is really just a slow bicycle. I mean if you could buy 90 bikes or one Segway which would you choose??
Of course this doesn't apply to government spending since people in charge of purchasing are spending taxpayer dollars, not their own. Yeah, put that order of Segways right next to the box of five thousand dollar toilet seats please.
Is it all just a load of local lobbyists pressing the city councils? It seems to me like there's enough hype/marketing here to choke a whole herd of horses.
Anyone else suspect this'll become a new Xtr3me Sp0rt,
as soon as Segway prices drop to the $300 range ?
>;k
Is it just me or does the above seem a tad extreme?
"These weigh 69 to 95 pounds, depending on the model, can carry a person up to 250 pounds plus cargo up to 75 pounds. With that much mass, even traveling at 12.5 miles an hour, the virtual laws of physics say they won't be able to stop on a dime."
Apparantly, we've been scammed by educators everywhere.
I'm a Mech-E student at the University of New Hampshire, just 40 minutes from Segway's and DEKA's headquarters, and we just had a demo here the other day by some of the engineers who work on it.
I must say, I was impressed.
First, if you're riding a segway at it's top speed of about 14 MPH, you can stop in about 15 feet- a runner going that fast takes about 20 feet to stop.
Second, the junior engineer there, a year out of UNH, made a point of running over the senior engineers toes many times. No injury, he was walking around fine.
Third, he also made a point of running into the senior engineer a number of times. Getting hit by one of those things is no worse then getting hit by someone who weighs 75 pounds more then you do.
It turns on a dime, stops and starts quick, is highly manuevarable, and very easy to use- they let a couple of my proffessors check it out. I wouldn't have any problem sharing a sidewalk with it. It has a number of stopping, size, and manuvering advantages over roller skates and bicycles, wich aren't allowed on most sidewalks.
That being said, it looks like an amusing toy with some very good aplications, but I don't think it's going to revolutionize transportation outside of a few circles.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
"the virtual laws of physics say they won't be able to stop on a dime."
But virtual physics???
</funny>
:)
--sig fault--
A question for you lawyers out there. If the owner of the Segway claims no privileged status, i.e "pedestrian" or "vehicle" status, and claims to be traveling along the public sidewalks and roads by right rather than by license, can the states arrest/fine/regulate him?
I don't want to come off as a morbid bastard, but how well protected is a rider during a crash? I mean, if the Segway is controlled with gyros that sense little weight shifts of the rider, in a crash, wouldn't the rider toppling off cause a shift in balance and accidentally cause the thing to tip over the wrong way? And how well do the pieces of the machine attach together -- in a head-on collision, are we supposed to expect the riders to kiss in mid-air, fall flat on their asses with the scooter toppling on them afterwards, or do they just get mercifully impaled by the handle bars? Why are we, as the public, and potentially stupid customers, not informed of matters of such importance, and more specifically, why are there no tutorials on doing donuts with Segways?
If you apply enough braking force then you can stop anything on a dime.
This might cause people to fly off their Segways though. As an experiment, drive your car 12 MPH and then slam on the brakes. Now imagine you are standing up rather than sitting down with your seatbelt on.
theres no way you're going to pick up sluts in this thing. King of Beers!
I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
... but the "virtual laws of physics?"
"Why are Segways different from bikes, Rollerblades and scooters, which are not permitted on sidewalks in many cities?"
And that's why they belong on the bicycle-lane!!!
What do you mean, your cities don't have bicycle-lanes? Maybe the problem isn't "Get laws passed for segfaults on sidewalks", but it should be "how to get more bicycle lanes!"?
Edwin
bash$
Don't people have enough problems burning their 2000 calories a day WITH walking around? If this ever takes off, I hope the segway is built to handle obese people.
Is it me or is the most surprising thing about the article is that 20 states were so quick to bring legislation regarding the segway. That's about the quickest I've seen the legal system incorporate technology.
As it currently stands (no pun intended, the Segway's weight of 65 pounds is just a bit too much for what it does. Also, the Segway can't be collapsed so it fits in smaller spaces.
I think a company like Dahon (who specializes in collapsible bicycles) should work with Dean Kamen to design a scooter with Segway technology that can be easily collapsed into a small carrying package and also weigh at most 28-30 pounds. Something like that would sell like ice cream in summer, in my opinion.
that's basically it, plus some fancy gyroscopes that make it easy to balance. i think most of us would agree that with a little practice, the gyroscopes in our inner ear function just fine, thanks.
that said, let's just accept for a second that this device *will* transform our cities, as its inventor/hypemonger claims. anyone eve been to taipei? it's just as annoying to get around in tapei as it is in new york, but everyone's zipping around in mopeds instead of cars. i'm not sure that's so desirable.
furthermore, if people are riding these segways around instead of walking, our poor benighted country is going to get even fatter and lazier.
finally, it just looks so 80s. very ugly and dorky design.
-------- -praktike
I had the opportunity to ride the Segway at the TED conference in Monterey a few months ago, and was quite impressed. It feels a bit like water skiing; takes a minute to get your "sea legs," then it's completely intuitive. Right now, there are no "gears"; you just lean forward or backward and it goes. This seemed to be a bit of a problem getting on and off the thing; I'd like to see a "Neutral" gear, where it tries to stay as motionless as possible, balancing upright. In fact, in this mode, a person could probably do a handstand on the handlebars and it would continue to balance itself!! (Cirque du Soleil, anyone?)
;-)
Also, perhaps separate "Drive" and "Reverse" modes might be called for, where it goes only forwards or only backwards (unless needed for balancing). And currently, a hard rotational twist at high speed will flip the thing. There must be some way to detect radial acceleration and ease up when it gets to a dangerous point... I understand the need for linear response, like a car steering wheel has, but note that a car is more likely to skid (not flip) if you turn the wheel a little too hard. (I don't think the Segway has enough juice to skid, anyway... and its center of gravity is way too high.) Some sort of governor that kicks in at high radial acceleration and avoids flipping would be a welcome improvement.
Just my two cents... I still want one! (well, perhaps when it comes down to $1000...
Weeks of coding saves hours of planning.
1) Has no benefits at all over walking. Something the Popular Science review by a postman hints at.
2) Walking is far better for your health. And in a country that is rampant with overweight people this is only going to make things worse.
3) One can walk as far as Segway after being fueled a well filled roll or sandwich and a litre of water.
4) It will be a difficult to recycle due to use of plastics and batteries. Bad for the environment.
5) A push scooter is far more economical and more compact.
6) A bicycle is far faster, with the only disadvantage it is slower and more complex to mount and dismount than a Segway.
All in all this is yet another example of unjustified hype being used to market something that when you stand back and think about it is pointless, except to the gullible. The inventor's other creations are far more important and justify the hype they received.
I'll end on a positive note: If it went about twice as fast and had a range of 30-40 miles or so it would make sense as an alternative to the car for trips where walking or biking may not be practical.
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
What do you want to know? They're bulky, they move quickly (10+ MPH) and they weigh 80 pounds. You do the math.
There's a good reason that bicycles and skateboards aren't allowed on a goodly portion of sidewalks: they move at a different rate than your average walker.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
200 college kids won't be going to the same class in these things, they're way too expencive. Still, if they are getting sidewalk legislation, they'll drop the price to somewhere closer to rediculous. I'm with the consumer advocates on this one, it's obviously as wide as a bike, and it probably can't stop as fast.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
I really hate trying to drive with people on Bikes riding. Here's my issue. I'm in the rightmost CAR lane, and I want to make a right turn. There is a bike lane to my right with a guy that wants to go straight.
Collision.
Separate thoroughfares for bikes would be more sensible than lanes.
~D
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have been looking for something like this. An unnecessary, electric device to help keep me from walking, biking or getting around under my own power. Thank God for the Segway.
Really, I can't see a single advantage over my bike. The bike is far cheaper (even if I go with an Eddy Merckx Team SC racing bike---mmmmm), it goes much faster, is not subject to a whole new set of laws, runs no risk of crashing software, does not need electricity, and helps to get me into shape. And why would I ever want/need a Segway?
Geek toy. Waste of money.
Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
Even in milwaukee where you are required to shovel within 24 hrs...there are still places with to much snow for a segway, look at it, it has almost no ground clearance. The tires a large enough that tall bumbs, think like speed bumb, may not be a problem. But snow or tall grass, even with rock hard dirt, would be a problem.
I would counter your thought of a bike on ice...the way the segway works with gyros(I think, never looked at tech specs of it) it might behave better on ice than a bike...it also has a much lower center of gravity, which would also help on ice. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be really usable on ice, but I bet it would be better than a traditional bike.
LinuxWorx
Spelling errors are intentional as are gramatical error
I mean, the Segway is neat and all that, but outside of the "Wow, cool!" factor, is there any part of it's design that really screams, "Look! I'm so much better/cheaper/more efficient than a conventional (2 wheels, front and back) motorized scooter?"
;-)
If there is, I don't see it. It's neat, sure. But at root it's just an electric scooter. It could easily be replaced by an 3-wheeled, electric cart, motorized skateboard, electric bike or powered roller skates; all of which would be a lot cheaper to produce.
I would think it would be better to change the laws to allow all small motorized vehicles, 2, 3 & 4 wheels, on the sidewalks and bike paths.
I haven't seen the laws that were passed, but doesn't it seem odd to pass a law just to help a single product achieve market share? Surely it's vague enough that other small scooters would be allowed rather than just the Segway. If laws are changed just so one guy can make money, I want one changed for me, too.
It seems like the only thing that the Segway does that other scooters don't (outside of the self balancing bit), is put money in Kamen's pocket.
Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, it's been a long day.
Beta sux! Join the Slashcott! http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4760465&cid=46173047
The Segway is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Imagine getting hit by someone running at 12 mph...
The company's marketing strategy is doomed to fail. If they succeed in getting the Segway approved on the sidewalk then they'll be sued out of business their first couple years of operation.
One of teh other posters had it right - it makes sense for the Segway to be used in the bike lane.
Unfortunately corporate greed says "Hey - if we get this thing approved on the sidewalk then we'll sell a lot more to people afraid of riding in the street". Just the kind of people you want rolling up behind you on the sidewalk at 12 mph.
The Segway is doomed just like all the greedy dotcoms were. Pass on this one's stock IMHO.
----- In Your Cubicle No One Can Hear You Scream...
I can run 20 mi/hr, but only in small bursts. Heck, my fastest mile is just under 5 minute pace, or 12 mi/hr. But I can't keep that up for ten minutes, nor do I want to put myself through such a workout just to get to class. A bike would be a reasonable alternative, though. Then again, this could be great for people with leg disabilities (although "It" may need some adjustments to accomidate those with weaker legs).
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
3413406th post!!!
Sure everone thinks these are neat, but so what? The sidewalk is for people on foot. Time and time again they have rejected the idea of letting skaters, skate board, bikes, and so on, on public sidewalks. Why? Because they interfere with people trying to walk on them. Now, there's a product that will make lots of money if the law is changed. Surprise, surprise, not only do the pass the law that contradicts all sorts of previous decisions, but they put in an order for several at the highest prices they will ever see.
Damn, I hope they don't agree. The sidewalks are not roads. Don't drive on them.
If this law passes, you've got precident to drive your motorcycle on the sidewalk as well. It's no wider than a segway, and it can be limited to 25MPH. Thats 24MPH faster than rush hour in NY.
Can anyone justify this ruling?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
you can usually find a government employee willing to spend someone else's hard-earned dollars to buy it.
I love this country. I've actually got some ideas I've been kicking around, which I think the government would eagerly spend millions of other peoples' money on....it's only a matter of time before I start getting my share of other people's money.
Thanks in advance.
A modern day witchhunt.
I would like to see someone build a "personal car." It would be to an ordinary car like a personal computer to a mainframe.
A personal car would be one person wide, lighter than the passenger(s), very quiet.
It would be compatible with bicycles, and could use bicycle lanes. I would love to see a full sized lane on a main road split into two lanes for personal cars and bicycles.
Because it is narrow, and because it could be pushed into a parking space, and because it could come with two loops on top and hung up, I reckon you could park 8 in the space of one regular car.
It would use maybe one litre per 100 km, or about 200 miles per gallon. And the inital cost could be far less than a regular car.
I think that would really revolutionise transportation within cities.
They cost a whole lot of money, they take something like 5 hours to recharge, they're not all that fast, and you can't really cary anything more than a briefcase on them. I can see how it's good for the environment, but it's not like they're replacing cars; more than likely they're replacing feet and bikes. What are some of the benefits to springing all that dough on a Segway?
A nation whose only exerecise is walking to and from the car will now no longer even have to walk to bathroom or accross the street.
segway will have to be modified to take the increaseing mass of ites users
I personally want to use my Segway for beating up old people!
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
...at an auto show in Atlanta. I only caught the tail end of the presentation and wasn't able to hear the fellow talking, but I have to say that it was an astonishing sight - FINALLY something to really make me think that I'm in the 21st century. From the outside, it really appeared as though the Segway was reading the driver's mind. He also had a little rig set up - imagine a 2" cube with a steep ramp up to one side and another on an adjacent side. He rode it up one ramp (that it did not change attitude in the transition was uncanny to watch), pivoted it to the left, and rode it down the other side.
I am not going to say that this is the answer to all our prayers, but I don't believe that these things are just going to fade away, either.
I can say with confidence that we're going to need sidewalks. Lots of sidewalks. Wide ones. And improved electricity generation and distribution.
I didn't find it to be an intersting read. Please provide a prompt refund as well as a concise testimony that includes a promise to be more accurate in such future claims.
I would like to suggest you quantify such phrases as 'interesting read' in a separate attachment so that we can attempt to equate our judgment concerning 'interesting' prior to accepting your word for such subjective reflections.
As an example, in the case of the linked article, I would have referred to it as a 'dry read', along the lines of a press release or class action lawsuit summary. To me, an interesting read would be a synopsis of how various cultures use public space, ie sidewalks, donkey trails and state fair runways.
Here is the spiritual predecessor of the Segway, the Sinclair C5. First sold in January 1985 this one-person electric vehicle cost less than $500 and was still an absolute commercial disaster.
Although superficially very different, the C5 and the Segway try to solve similar problems of personal mobility without being a car or motorbike. The Segway is undoubtably more advanced (and several times the price) but like the C5 is: small (one person, no luggage), exposed, slow and makes you look like a dork.
I'm not sure I see why the Segway won't go the same way as the C5. I certainly wouldn't buy any stock in Segway.
Sailing over the event horizon
If they really want this thing to take off they should pop a solar panel on the back. I really know nothing about the inside of one of these, but I can't imagine it would be that hard to modify one. Even more fun would be to crank up the motor and get it going about 30 or 40.
God sucks at running this place. Impeach God at
and so do you.
I used to live in atlanta, and once heard a judge say that "bikes have no business being on the road at 4 o'clock in the afternoon." That's it, case closed, your rights have just been trampled, there's no supreme traffic court to dispute these things.
Let's see...a machine that encourages one to be healthier, more eco-responsible and cheaper (in general) is losing out to one that encourages humans to be lazier, fatter, more consumptive of energy, and in general take up more space on the sidewalks.
Just what the south needs: more fat lazy people, even more capable of running you over.
get run over by a car while riding on segway.
"overclock" it to do 60 mph.
put a really large tires and ride over other segway crushing it.
dissect it and puts it's pictures of it's guts online and get slashdotted.
have their segway malfunction and end up doing a cartwheel on a steep sidewalk.
do all sort of cool tricks with it like a freestyle bike.
fall off the thing and get hurt and decides to sue Dean Kamen.
ride segway while drunk as a skunk and get charged with DWI.
have their segway run out of battery on the side of the road and have to call AAA to tow it.
hit a pedestrian.
hit a pedestrian and run off.
have their segway tiretracks link them to a crime they committed.
find their segway minus wheels sitting on concrete blocks on the side of the road.
steal it.
get caught trying to steal it.
track down a stolen segway by using hidden GPS.
strap a jet rocket and attempt to break segway land speed record.
----
jk
Its a great way for us all to get fat(ter).
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
"You do the math". Do a search and see how often that term comes up, I bet it's a lot. Ok, here's the math.
Force = Mass x Acceleration (or in this case deacceleration)
Force from walking =
mass of person x deceleration of walking.
force from segway =
(mass of person + mass of segway) x deceleration from segway
Now lets assume a normal person here, in the range of 120-200 pounds. The segway now becomes 33% to 50% of the mass (assuming ~60 pound segway)
I'm not sure how fast a person walks, but it isn't 12 mph, so you are also increasing the deceleration. Force increases a lot. That is w/o adding anything the segway is carry ie. groceries, mail, packages.
Now I happen to think they should allow these on sidewalks, but I'm a bike rider to begin with, and living in a state where drivers are maniacs and don't EVER watch out for bikers, I enjoy improving the odds of my survival by riding on the sidewalk wherever possible.
Think of it, not too long ago this mystery device proclaimed to be the revolution of personal transportation was unveiled. The press ate it up!
For months all you heard about was "what's Ginger?" Kamen's true genius is marketing.
Now you're seeing the benefit of that pre-emptive strike on the public. People are pumped about this and they've only seen it in pictures.
NYPOST.COM Business:
NYC HALTS NEW SCOOTER By DOUGLAS WIGHT and FRANKIE ENDOZIEN
Tue Dec 4 09:41:06 2001
Matt Burns, a spokesman for the Department of Motor Vehicles, said: "From my understanding, it is designed for sidewalk use, and that would be a violation of vehicular traffic law since you cannot have motorized vehicles on the sidewalk."
Anyone caught using a Segway on the sidewalk would be ticketed, he said.
Apparently, the taxpayers are paying the salery of a government employee who is 'loaned' to DEKA to make suggestions about the segway.
Why are we subsidising them? I don't want my tax money going to Dean Kamen.
From the WP article:
Segway asked the CPSC to review the scooter, and the agency suggested that the handlebars, which were turned up, be reversed so they wouldn't catch the straps of women's purses. It also urged Segway to enclose the wheels so toes and fingers couldn't be caught in the spokes. Both were done.
Ronald Medford, the staff member who made these suggestions, has taken a government-approved sabbatical to work for Kamen's firm, DEKA Research & Development Corp., which created Segway. Medford is the "in-house critic and adviser, having nothing to do with sales and marketing, but only telling us what to do to make products safe," said Gary Bridge, Segway's senior vice president of marketing.
To avoid conflict of interest, Bridge said, the government continues to pay Medford's salary ($138,200 a year) and Medford has promised to recuse himself from any product decisions involving DEKA and Segway when he returns to the CPSC later this year.
Another Eurotroll bites the bullet.
Good thing we have guns over here.
Since Segway won't get me across the states, I'll stick with my SUV. And for around town, nothing beats my bike for the price. So it's really a luxury toy. When and if the price drops down to 300 or less, I'll get one.
They are planning to release a much cheaper "educational" version of the Segway, as they realize that it's too expensive for the consumer market.
It's called feet.
Apparently, rather than the gyroscopes, you would have a different kind of engine powered by "anti-laziness" energy with a special "work-->physical fitness" converter.
Man is it really starting to feel like the 21st century!!
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Either that, or just get out and put your chains on... but still, I figure the wind chill when your whipping along at - what? - 12mph? - will just freeze your damn nose off.
Added to the list of Inane Reasons to Move to Florida:
53) so I can buy a Segway
(right after 52) "so I can vote for Pat Buchanan")
I can't believe what crybabies you all are.
These things aren't even out yet, and you
want to outlaw them pre-emptively? Let's go
the other way - give them a chance and see what
happens. Yeah, there will be a few accidents,
who cares? It's a big world and *everything*
injures some unlucky schmuck now and then.
I think progress has CEASED. Just think of
how many things would be illegal if invented
today - motorcycles, guns, alcohol, who knows
what else. One big nursing home.
I wonder how long it will be before there are sport utility models stamped w/ a luxury car logos that will be running us off of the sidewalks :)
I would hope they specifically passed the law. I wouldn't want laws to be passed any other way!
-bugg
Seriously, though, I can see these as useful for the mobility-impaired who can stand, for riding around in huge warehouses, and for moving over difficult terrain. But as fellow /.ers have pointed out, a bicycle is a lot cheaper than $5,000. Want a smaller footprint? Try a unicycle.
You forgot:
Lower it
Put hydraulics in it
Put a slammin' stereo & subwoofer in it
Put a stupid wing on the back
Put a fire extinguisher and big ass tach on it
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
easy to make a quote look stupid or illogical when you present it out of context, isn't it?
Everyone keeps touting these things as amazing technological acheivements but what the hell is the point of a Segway? Are people really THAT lazy that they won't walk or take a bike somewhere?
I mean, I can't see someone using one of these things for long distance (they might as well use a car if the thing only goes 14 mph) and for short distances you could just use those things they called "legs". For medium distances you could use a "bike" and get some "exercise".
Just my two cents.
Have you ever tried steering a bicycle that has its front wheel centre locked?
Well guess what? You can ACTUALLY steer it by leaning.
Electrically assisted bicycles like this are in a legal limbo: you can't legally use them on bike paths in many places, you can't ride them as fast as a bicycle, and some variants require motorcycle licenses. Yet, they are suitable and highly efficient for travel and commuting.
Similarly, innovative scooters like the BMW C1 (a scooter with a secure passenger cell) fail to get approval in the US, even though they passed lots of safety and real-world tests in Europe.
Yet, a high-tech gizmo like the Segway just breezes through regulatory approvals, probably based on the excellent marketing and celebrity endorsements behind it. First, drivers have to engage in an arms-race with SUVs on the road; will pedestrians now all have to upgrade to Segways in order to use sidewalks safely?
An indicator light that could get one a ticket would surely be the first thing that got unhooked by any intelligent Segway purchaser. If this were such a great idea, wouldn't cars have had these a long time ago? Of course for cars one could propose some sort of inspection program (which also wouldn't work), but I doubt many governments will find it desirable to institute some special program for something that is basically a toy for the wealthy.
OTOH, maybe the need for more room for these machines will provide an incentive for more and wider bike lanes, which would be excellent.
later,
Jess
I am programmed for etiquette, not destruction!
Forget the physics; someone who would make this statement has never played a sport.
later,
Jess
I am programmed for etiquette, not destruction!
later,
Jess
I am programmed for etiquette, not destruction!
20 states have specifically passed laws to allow the Segway on sidewalks.
This really, really, *really* should read "20 states have passed laws to specifically allow the Segway on sidewalks." They didn't specifically pass the law, they specifically allowed the Segway. This is a mistake. Not as egregious as others, but it's still very noticable.
-bugg
I used to live in Minneapolis. I rode my bike to work every day for two years, through 8 inches of new snow in the morning, in 30-40 below zero weather. I never had that problem, though I kept my bike in the house at night. I suppose that may be what kept my BB from having like problems........
isnt america the land of the obese?
this isnt going to help.
Slashdot really has to stop taking out my favorite news source (washingtonpost.com) especially because I'm now 3000 miles from home and no longer subscribe!
Let's see how this gets modded:
Rolling Right Along
Scooter Meets Few Obstacles, but Safety Issues Grow
By Caroline E. Mayer
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 25, 2002; 10:45 AM
Segway, the high-tech scooter that's been hailed as the future of personal transportation, can travel only 12.5 miles per hour, but it has been winning access to the nation's sidewalks with lightning speed.
In the four months since the heavily touted invention was unveiled to the public, 20 states, including Virginia, have passed laws to allow the Human Transporter, as the scooter is sometimes called, to be used on sidewalks.
Similar laws are awaiting the governor's signature in Maryland and two other states, while 16 states and the District are scheduled to consider the issue by the end of the year.
Today, the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works also approved on a voice vote a measure that would allow the Segway to be used on sidewalks and bike paths built with federal funds--as long as local authorities agree.
The Segway looks like a rotary lawn mower, but is powered by a battery, stabilized by gyroscopes and has 10 computers that keep it balanced. The rider stands on a platform over its single axle and steers with a set of handlebars, leaning forward to move ahead and leaning back to slow down.
Its inventor, Dean Kamen, is an engineering legend with more than 150 patents, many for medical devices such as the infusion pump that allows diabetics to lead more normal lives, a wheelchair that climbs stairs and a heart stent now used by Vice President Cheney. Kamen was selected to receive the prestigious $500,000 Lemelson-MIT prize for inventors last night.
While Segway is being tested--and heartily applauded--by the Postal Service, the Atlanta police force and General Electric Co., a small but growing number of medical experts, traffic engineers, consumer advocates and community activists are concerned about their use on sidewalks.
"I'm not against Segway devices--they're phenomenally innovative and exciting--but I'm concerned that if we allow [them] onto sidewalks, this will be a major injury waiting to happen," said Gary Smith, director of the Center for Injury Research and Policy at the Columbus Children's Hospital in Ohio.
"These weigh 69 to 95 pounds, depending on the model, can carry a person up to 250 pounds plus cargo up to 75 pounds. With that much mass, even traveling at 12.5 miles an hour, the virtual laws of physics say they won't be able to stop on a dime."
Charles Trainor, chief traffic engineer for Philadelphia, is equally concerned. "Our sidewalks are pretty crowded now, even without a Segway, and some of our center-city streets aren't wide enough" to accommodate pedestrians and the new scooter, he said.
The District's acting director of transportation, Dan Tangherlini, said, "We'll certainly have to look at all the safety and traffic concerns that are raised. But we look at anything that moves people out of their vehicles and has a potential to reduce congestion as a good thing."
The scooter "is not intended to be used on public roads and highways," said Brian C. Toohey, Segway's vice president for international and regulatory affairs. If it were, it would need turn signals and rear-view mirrors among other features, he said. Rather, "we believe it is primarily a consumer product that should be used on sidewalks."
Toohey concedes that it was unusual for the company to seek regulatory approval--both from U.S. regulators and from state legislatures--before selling the product to the public. "We're simply being proactive and had quite a lot of success," he said. "What we've done is show the product, demonstrate it, and let them [the legislators] experience it. When we've done that, people get big smiles on their faces, and they become very supportive."
Toohey said the company spent less than $1 million to hire lobbyists and get the state approvals passed.
But a coalition of consumer advocates asked the Senate committee to delay a vote on its bill until hearings could be held to weigh the safety issues. "Why are Segways different from bikes, Rollerblades and scooters, which are not permitted on sidewalks in many cities?" the groups asked.
The measure was introduced by Sen. Robert C. Smith, Republican of New Hampshire, where Segway LLC is headquartered. Committee aides said no hearing was needed because the legislation only involves a technical change to complement laws already passed by the states.
Erik Smulson, spokesman for the committee, said it is not unusual for it to vote on bills without holding hearings. Smith said safety issues are the responsibility of the Senate Commerce Committee, not his panel.
Originally known by the code names "It" and "Ginger," the Segway was touted by supporters as a more important development than the personal computer, the Internet, or even the car.
Before the product was publicly unveiled, the company requested--and received--letters from federal safety regulators about how it would be regulated. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said that since it would be considered similar to a motorized wheelchair, NHTSA would not regulate it. But the Consumer Product Safety Commission's attorney concluded that the Segway could be considered a consumer product and thus subject to his panel's jurisdiction.
Segway asked the CPSC to review the scooter, and the agency suggested that the handlebars, which were turned up, be reversed so they wouldn't catch the straps of women's purses. It also urged Segway to enclose the wheels so toes and fingers couldn't be caught in the spokes. Both were done.
Ronald Medford, the staff member who made these suggestions, has taken a government-approved sabbatical to work for Kamen's firm, DEKA Research & Development Corp., which created Segway. Medford is the "in-house critic and adviser, having nothing to do with sales and marketing, but only telling us what to do to make products safe," said Gary Bridge, Segway's senior vice president of marketing.
To avoid conflict of interest, Bridge said, the government continues to pay Medford's salary ($138,200 a year) and Medford has promised to recuse himself from any product decisions involving DEKA and Segway when he returns to the CPSC later this year.
Segway has a video of the scooter with snow tires.
It looks pretty stable, amazingly enough. For the bucks, I'm sticking with my bike.
My amazing wife - Artist, Author, Philosopher - Laurie M
after reading the other posts here, I'm a bit disapointed about the short-sightedness of some of the folks here...
First off, the aim of this thing is to make people LESS lazy. It might be an over-idealistic idea, sure, but that's the aim - to be used in urban centers, with wide enough sidewalks, everything paved, etc., where cars SHOULDN''T go...yeah, you could walk...but you cant walk faster...people don't walk at 14 mph constantly...if caught in the rain, at least you can escape faster with a segway...if you have a job, and aren't out to exercise, you also don't want to get to work sweaty while jogging at 14 mph with a suitcase swinging around (real good for the laptop hard drives).
Public transportation also makes people exercise more as compared with cars - think about it, you always have to at least walk to the pickup point. Often, you have to stand there and wait, which takes _some_ effort. If you are in the sun and sweat a little or if your body has to work a bit harder to cool you down (or warm you up), you are getting more of a workout in freshair than you would eating a donut, driving one handed in a perfectly-temp car interior. Similar for the Segway; you are at least outdoors, and would use just a bit of energy also for balance.
I don't think something that gets people to stand during a trip, outside in open air, in place of car, is a "fat people machine". Folks seem to say that this is a replacement for bikes, but the point is to be a replacement for cars in certain circumstances.
And if you live at the base of a mountain, or get 70 feet of snow or live in Venice, well, wait for a floating scooter.
The technology also isn't just a "scooter with a gyroscope". Try making something that auto-balances. This is a bit like that japanese robot what walks orders of magnitude better than anything we (as Americans) have - it may just be a combination of parts (computers, sensors, etc.), but, isn't everything - I mean, what so special about the lunar lander, for example - the _combination_ of electronics, materials, manufactoring techinques, etc.
It's still pretty damn cool and ahead of it's time...I'm sure that if this doesn't take off, most of it's ideas will. The balancing technology and intuitive control interface surely will.
Toohey said the company spent less than $1 million to hire lobbyists and get the state approvals passed.
but somehow this line just doesn't seems right to me, especially in a supposedly corruption free democratic government... or is it just me?
geek page at KY speaks
Jackie chan decides to use one in a movie, to beat up people and do wacky martial arts. And travel, of course
The credits would probably have a lot of mumbo jumbo about not trying this at home...
Unfortunately, if such a thing ever happened, the sales would probably take off and I wouldn't be able to walk to work anymore :-(
nuf evah,
drawoc suomynona
How long will a Segway HT last?
:).
In order to deliver a durable business productivity tool, we pursued two design avenues. First, we built durable mechanical and electrical systems to be in solid state, so even the moving parts were designed for longevity. For example, the motors are brushless servomotors, so there are no parts that could wear out. We then submitted the systems to extensive, rigorous testing to ensure we met our goals. Second, we created a modular design whereby if any part were to wear out or break, it could easily be replaced, ensuring a long product life.
In other words, we have no f'in clue, and we don't feel like saying something actually helpful like, its under warrantee for 20 years, for example. Nono, be safe with the knowledge that if something breaks on you thousand dollar scooter that the only place you will be able to fix it is here, and we like to make money
Why is he trying to market these things in the US? I would think that the prime market to a product like the Segway would be in Euope or Japan. Us Americans (North Americans:) have a huge love affair with our obscenely big cars, I frankly find it disturbing when in the middle of massive traffic conjestion companies still market wide tracks! If you want to make it into a market why not go for Europe where they already have Smart Cars (really really small cars) and lots of cyclists. The culture there is ready to accept a product like this. I believe Japan too would have a strong market for this having extremely dense population centers. Americans have simply shown time and tmie again that we are not willing to give up our massive cars and I frankly do not see why he isn't pushing this stronger overseas (or at least why we're not hearing about it).
I stole this Sig
...a skateboarding teenage geek and segway-riding, sidewalk hogging suit?
A.: about $70k per year and the law on their side.
Are there any "Dotty Slashers" that have real nonvirtual Hands on Experience with a SegWay and could give an account of their learnings?
The recent issue of Vanity Fair writes about Segway. The writer mentions that Dean Kamen and Doerr were testing on the hilly streets of San Francisco. Does anybody know whether there are videos of Segway riders on such hills? We are following the Segway related news mainly because of the potential implications of the dynamical stabilization technology on devices that are useful for disabled individuals such as the IBOT. Does anybody know when IBOT is going to be approved by FDA? http://www.neuroprosthesis.org/blogger.html
They talk about this thing being used in big cities for people to get to work. Besides the need for a "car" alarm to leave something like that out side of a building in NYC, there is something more important.. There is no place to leave something like that outside a building in NYC... assuming you can tell which seg is yours.
Image a big building with 1000 people working inside; we have 100's of these in each large city. There are notany parking spaces; imagine 1000 little seg's all sitting on the sidewalk waiting for their owners; likewise when the owners travel back to their high rise apartments... although perhaps they can be locked up in the bike room!
Which makes me think the real issue about being able to travel on sidewalks has to do with parking them there as well!
http://www.hawknest.com/
But in countless states, including my state of Virginia, it is still illegal to ride your bike on the sidewalk. I've had a problem for years with this, but now they're letting this MOTOR-POWERED vehicle on the sidewalks. Hey, House of Burgesses, get your god damn shit together. Its a shame to see the oldest democratic body in the nation still outlaws bikes on the sidewalks, especially of busy areas where us riders can't quite match the 45 (+5 over) that the drivers tend to do on the streets. Shizzy!
"Let's not kid ourselves." A.K.A. "If it won't cost too many votes, we can do it." Details of metalaw may shift the balance between opposing factions, but they aren't going to matter if everybody's basically on the same side.
But seriously, that tired theory about how you don't really need a driver's license unless you're using the road for commercial purposes is nonsense. It's a crackpot's delusion that sounds just weird enough to seem true.
By default, riding a mindless motor vehicle "over the public easement" is reckless endangerment of other travellers. It's entirely consistent with the common law to place strict limitations, including the requirement of a license, on this kind of behavior, and generally treat it as a privilege.
As a public hazard by default, you don't need to claim the status of driving a vehicle to be restricted, you just have to do it.
Neato little devices, and yet I find it interesting how quickly laws were passed in favor of the little boogers on sidewalks and other places. Why do I have a feeling it's a case of "money talks"? After all, while I'm sure it's safe and yadda, but 12 mph is a bit fast for a human clogged sidewalk and we haven't even seen the effects of mass usage... I wanna see how well these these rapid fire laws hold up when these things become affordable and more irresponsible people get a hold of them...
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Am I the only one who sees the Segway as a motorized equipment that already existed in other forms, but that has the added value of Hype and Marketing. Imagine putting overweight police officers on it, and taking away their only exercise (mainly walking). You render them even more unhealthy by putting them on a useless and VERY expensive device.
As for functionality, the only way I can see that the Segway actually works is by moving the platform you stand on forward and back. You can compensate a little using acceleration of the entire device, but that only gets you so far. I would bet that most of the balancing is done by moving the platform to shift the persons center of gravity over the wheels.
The biggest issue I see with this is the battery runtime. Unless Mr. Kamen has made a quantum leap in battery performance, I think the specified runtimes are very, very optimistic.
It's a neat toy for the rich, but I have yet to be convinced of its absolute necessity for the average person. What happens when the person that used to walk to work gains about 30 pounds riding the Segway everyday. You quickly surpass the weight limit of the poor little device.
It's my work about which I'd posted elsewhere.
Experiment 2 succesful! I've built a simple device which allows me to stay balaced on my bike when I'm not moving. Basically, you put the front wheel on it and when you turn the handlebar the contact patch of thw wheel moves from side to side. It's funny though because it (the contact patch) moves opposite the direction of the turn so you have to turn opposite the way you would if riding .
With some work it could beecome the format for a rider-balanced vehicle but its too clumsy and its not what I'm aiming for. I still haven't gotten perfect at playing around with this (its lots of fun ) but I can stay balanced for 30-40 seconds or so untill I move instinctually and foul up. It's made of wood so it can't be patented so here it is: 1)Get a board about 45cm long and about as wide as the front tire of your bike (it will hold your front up so it should at least be 1.5 cm thick depending on the strength.) 2) Get or make two boards about 2/3 as thick, half as long and about 5cm wide and attach them to either side of one end of the board in step 1 (join them flush so that your device looks like a 'u'. 3) Attach a non-swiveling caster to the bottom of the U-shaped part of the device.(edit: you want the wheel to roll perpendicular to the length of the board.) 4) Drill a vertical hole in the center of the width towards the opposite end of your device (the end with no walls). 5) Get a board about like the original and drill a vertical hole through its center (the center of its width and length). 6) Attach the two boards with a bolt through the pre-drilled holes being sure to put a fat (as in surface area in its radial plane) washer between the boards and secure it with a nut and a washer(edit: you may want to add another bolt and washer to keep the first from loosening. Also, attach the boards firmly but not where they can't swivel without difficulty.). Now you have something shaped like a 'T' if you hold the non-wheeled board horizontally. 7) put 'feet' (preferably made of or covered in rubber to avoid slippage) on either end of the wheel-les board on the same side as the wheel and put the device down on the ground in front of your bike (your tire goes in that 'u' shaped area). 8) See how long it takes to catch on, how long you can balance yourself, and how much fun you can have.
Appendix A:
I've been operating this gizmo backwards, with the head of the 'T' in front of the front wheel but as I've just tried it with the foot of the 'T' if front it seems to be closer to the natural behavior of a moving bicyle. It also feels to be some 25-30% more authoritative in this configuration. The only problem is that the rear wheel stays put in the whole thing. Even still it is indeed effective in keeping balance either way (you just have to reorientate yourself with the change of where the foot of the 'T' points).
Appendix B:
Oh, about the 'U' shaped bit...You attach the two thinner boards lengthwise so that they contact more of the surface of your tire's sides.
what happens when the Segway reaches it maximum speed?
It doesn't.
It is programatically speed-limited so it always has enough reserve speed to beat your attempt to lean forward.
Ever do judo? There's a move called okuri ashi harai (sending foot sweep), in which you get a person moving in one direction, then sweep his feet out in that same direction. By moving his feet forward, past his center of gravity, you make him fall over backwards even though he's still moving forwards. The fall feels a little bit like sliding into home base.
That's what the Segway does, but with the intent of moving your feet back under your center of gravity.
Remember, unless you're accelerating, you're not going to actually be leaning your center of mass in front of your feet, or you'd be falling over. You just have your body configuration like you'd be leaning forward if you were standing on the ground, but when it accelerated, the Segway rotated the base you're standing on so you became balanced once more.
And in any balance situation, it always keeps enough acceleration potential to kick your feet back under you (and as far in front of you as it needs to slow you down or stop you), no matter how hard you (as a mere human) try to throw yourself in front of your feet.
What if you live in one of those annoying suburbs that don't have sidewalks? Every time there is a referendum to build sidewalks in a new community, they are shot down - people here dont want them.
Welcome to the backwards state of PA
In many European cities the town centres are declared pedestrian zones, so there're no cars (and no congestion). One could do something similar for the segway: declare the city centre a pedestrian/segway zone, and the sidewalks themselves a purely pedestrian zone. Elsewhere, as has been amply pointed out, one could limit segways to bicycle paths.
Basically, there are three categories of traffic: (1) cars and motorbikes, (2) bicycles and segways, (3) pedestrians or skaters. To some extent, zoning already exists for these three categories, with some overlap (bicylces are allowed on roads, for example). Segways only require a slight elaboration of this.
"...Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Can you just imagine a cop jumping off one of these things to chase down a criminal?
"Awright, buddy, come back with me to my, uh... Now where did my Segway go?"
"Anyone try riding a bicycle on ice?"
I rode my bike 2 miles each way from home to lab every day, rain, snow or shine on Michigan State's campus when I was in graduate school. What finally did me in was that in an attempt to avoid a patch of ice, I slid into an even bigger patch of ice, and took a header. A spiral fracture in one of the bones in my left hand kept me off the bike for a few weeks, and in driving to work, I realized how nice it was not to be out in the weather all the time.
I think about that everytime I'm tempted to get a motorcycle, and it's gotta be a major concern for Segway sales. Maybe these will be like all those motorcycles in garages all over America, taken out a few times a year for a joyride when the weather is nice, and you know you won't be dtopping to pick up any groceries on the way home, but not relied on for any serious transportation needs.
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
I mean, if this thing is a huge failure, the coolness of him speaking at my commencement this year just won't have the same ring to it.
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
Segway is extremely overpriced and impractical due to its wide stance. Want an electric scooter that can go faster than Segway, is narrow enough to accomodate a passing pedestrian, and costs only $400? Check out the Phat Flyer SE or equivelant. These are practical electric scooters, not an overhyped joke. Unfortunately their inventors don't have the money to hype their product to the sky or buy enough legislators to legalize their presence on our sidewalks.
I can only hope that these things get cheap enough that everyone can own one, and that the internal controls can have GPS and wireless connectivity. That way, I don't get stuck behind the morons that feel that traffic ways are the best place to stop and hold conversations, and the schmuck in front of me that is walking at a snails pace gets sped up automatically. My segway beams out "Hey get the fuck outta the way". Their segways comply by increasing speed.
It will revive interest in my favorite sport - jousting.
Segway will be allowed on the sidewalk because poor people and obnoxious teenagers won't be able to afford them...
What's interesting is that those who *have*
ridden a Segway are much more likely to believe
in it than those that haven't.
I have. I rode it with a friend of mine who was
a huge naysayer. Now? He's a convert.
It *is* an amazing thing, and you really can't
appreciate it until you ride it.
All this stuff about colliding with people I think
is mostly moot. You won't collide with people because
you *won't*. I don't see colliding with someone any
more likely than when you walk, and I don't see it
any more damaging either - as soon as you bump into
someone you'll back up just from your reaction.
I haven't seen any reviews that address one basic question: can a Segway go from a sidewalk to the street by easing down over a curb, cross the street and (slowly) climb up a curb to the sidewalk on the other side?
Hitting an obstacle at speed wouldn't be good as the effect of your body continuing forward would apply more power when you may want to be stopping at that point. But if you stopped near the base of a curb, can you climb the curb slowly...
Actually there's a video out there of the Segway and how it performs on ice and snow. Check the Segway website. I doubt that it would peform well in heavy snow for the reasons you mentioned but it appears to work fine in a lighter snowfall.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
I sit on my ass 2 hours a day commuting, plus 9 hours staring at a monitor, the last thing I or most of the slashdot community needs is a way to further limit physical activity. Screw the segway and get a bike/rollerblades/a pair of sneakers.
I have done my fair share of illegal street-skating in pedestrian areas. When skating through a crowd, one can either skate at walking speed in the main direction of movement of the crowd, or at a significantly higher speed in the opposite direction (depending on the crowd, between 10 and 15 km/h).
At these higher speeds, the crowd seems to open up, and a series of gaps appears. I never cared to model this effect, but it does exist.
The thing that makes this unsafe is the presence of little kids that move all over the place and cyclists with different speeds.
My guess is that especially little kids will get hurt. Some cyclist will get hurt also, but they should not be in pedestrian areas anyway.
First Seg-Jacking.
.. so once yours it gone, it looks like all the others.
I can imagine it being quite easy to steal one of these, easier than Car Jacking...and they all look the same
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
I don't have a segway and don't plan on buying one. I have a bike for that. That said (catagorize me with the "have not's") I have to disagree. You are banking on people using these things intelligently and i think $8,000 is a good way to keep it in mostly intelligent hands. But when the price drops (a lot), it will fall into the hands of idiots. You and I have both seen them before. You may be careful with it, and $8,000 is a hell of an incentive to be so, but it can and will be abused once the masses can easily afford it.
My point is that as soon as you bump into somebody at 5-12 mph on one of these things because some idiot was talking on his cell or just playing around on a street full of pedestrians and seways, you just won't "back up from your reaction". Try careen out of control into other people. Ever fallen from rollerblading at 12 mph? You'll bruise, bleed and even break stuff.
You maybe safe. The seway maybe neato. But you're making a mistake assuming that everybody else is.
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I seem to remember the same arguments being made about the car. Too cumbersome, too large, dangerous, irritates the horses, too noisy (not a complaint you'll hear about the segway)....
Perhaps people need to find solutions rather than create roadblocks.
that motorized wheelchairs were not allowed on city sidewalks before these laws were updated?
That's all it really is isn't it? A wheelchair that you stand on instead... A wheelplatform?
Based on what I've seen and what I believe about the behavior of the device, I think controllability is not an issue. The only argument I have along these lines is the lack of a dead-man switch (which I'm not even sure is absent from the design)--I forsee a "news of the weird" clip about someone passing out/having a seizure/dying on a Segway and plowing through a crowd. The other thing that is somewhat disconcerting is that these things just stop when they break or when the battery dies. Of course, that wouldn't be my problem as a pedestrian, only a problem for the person-minus-three-grand who has to "Gingerly" tote around 75 extra pounds.
What I do think is the problem is the same one that is really the reason bicycles, inline skates and scooters are banned on sidewalks, and even the reason that joggers and runners are disliked: When someone is walking, they don't want to be concerned with what's behind me.
It is well established on the road that the driver of each vehicle is responsible for controlling their own force vector. In non-pseudo-intelectual-nerd-speak, they're responsible for not running into things in in the direction they're moving. There are rules in place (i.e. speed limits) that let people relax and not concern themselves with stuff going on behind them [for the most part anyway.] As long as people follow those two rules, things go really quite well.
On the sidewalk, however, the same rules are implied but not enforced. As long as a sidewalk is populated by people walking, they have an assumed speed limit (the vaguely defined "walking speed") that allows each pedestrian to ignore what's going on behind them. For the most part, if I'm on the sidewalk and I want to go from the right side, all the way to the left side, I can basically do it without so much as a glance to my left to make sure I don't walk right into someone.
However, if there were vehicles or people who were going faster than myself, I need to look further back before changing direction. By my estimate, even if you could assume that the sidewalk speed limit was only twice as fast as your own speed, you'd be pretty stressed about not stepping a few inches out of a straight trajectory for fear of getting hit. As a cyclist, I know that applies on the road--my speed is typically half that of cars on residential streets, and I pay attention to not deviating more than a few inches from a straight line and pray that the driver doesn't hit me anyway. When the speed difference is greater (i.e. 3x) it gets pretty terrifying.
Now, if only we could change the world and make everyone responsible for their own actions and concerned for the well being of their fellow man ... ha ha ha ha ha. Oh, I slay me.
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
First, segways and pedestrians don't mix. A 12 mph hit is harder than any WWF or football tackle you've ever seen. And don't tell me it can't/won't happen. The state will be lucky if they don't get their asses sued off for such a dumb decision. Somebody made a good point-- Bikes are treated as vehicals (albeit differently), the segway should likewise.
The only solution I can think of... Is take lane space away from cars gradually in areas you want to convert to segway only use. This would have the short to long term issue of massive traffic congestion as everybody has a car. Expanding a roadway would serve only to increase taxes to support the project. Both solutions will draw heavy critism from motorist (a large majority of the population who have already shelled out $10,000-50,000 on a mode of transportation.)
The primary problem as I see it is that we need a working alternate energy plan. This Segway conversion project would be a whole lot easier if we did. Sadly, we have only piecemeal. Regardless; nobody wants to give up their cars because in the long term, simply because they are all around more useful than a segway. I can go cross country AND commute within a city in mine. I can travel in nearly any weather. Transverse moderately rough terrain. I can only use a Segway in a city for it to be useful. Yes, you could put parking lots outside a city, but then you'd have to clear massive space to support the sheer number of commuters coming into the city and getting on their segway. Who's suburb is that going to be? Yours?
People are focusing on the problems because the solutions are even more unwieldy that what we have going on now...
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that makes ginger even mildly useful is all of the wheelchair-accessibility ramps that have been built into side walks over the last 30 years. From a regulatory point of view, it seems not much different than a motorized wheelchair, at 2-3x the privice. This is within other the vanity price range speaking, a motorized chair seems more useful, as there's some cargo capacity. You could imagine a "motor platform" with four wheels like a wheelchair, and it wouldn't have ginger's gyro complications (or coolness). Why might ginger cost more to manufacture than a wheel chair? I dunno. Composites? Gyros? Amortised cost of molds? (Ignoring development cost) -dB
"It if was easy to do, we'd find someone cheaper than you to do it."
After all the "No Skateboarding/Bicycling/Rollerskating" signs I have seen around various towns, why would so many cities specifically allow these things on sidewalks by passing laws saying so?
Skateboards and rollerskates have no concept of brakes, which makes them unsuitable for pedestrianised areas. Bicycles are large and travel very fast, and are therefore deemed more suitable to share the road with other vehicles rather than with pedestrians. The Segway has a restricted speed, small footprint and is able to brake rapidly. On balance it is more suited to the sidewalk than the road. It doesn't seem like a great conspiracy to me, just common sense. As for specifically being mentioned in a law, if your local postal service is going to be using them then you want to makes sure their path is clear (excuse pun).
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
can't be all bad. I can hardly wait for the automatic ass wiper from these guys.
Just don't run over someone's foot with these on.
- James
Check this out. I don't know why those darn things don't render anymore. Sorry.
Go here for the specifications of the Segway. Quite interesting.
There is no way in hell a Segway is faster than a mountain bike. The top speed is less than half of the fastest I have taken a bike on flat roads. Average Cruising speed for a mountain bike is still over 40% faster than a segway.
Assume that the Segway owner is resonably bright, and demands that you prove your case, Mr. Prosecutor. The burden of proof is supposed to be upon the accuser.
You claimed that the Segway is a "vehicle" and a "motor vehicle". I say it isn't. You have no license or registration to show the court. Now prove your case.
You made slanderous statements that I recklessly endangered other travelers. You called me a public hazard. We are assuming a warrantless arrest was made (California vehicle code 40300 or your state's equivalent), and that the Segway was being peacefully used for personal travel. I demand to confront my accuser. Produce the injured party.
The judge is honest, and will not accept the "everybody knows" statutes in her court. Now establish jurisdiction.
Too bad this discussion is slipping over the Slashdot horizon. I would really like an answer better than "because we say so".
No wheelchair i've ever heard of can do that speed. So yeah, that's "all" that seperates it.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
You are mostly right. Too bad you were modded down. We agree that driving a motor vehicle is a privilege.
Everybody get that? We agree that driving a motor vehicle is a privilege.
But, my point is that I do not claim that my Segway is a "motor vehicle". I assert that it is "personal property".
Now. How does the state prove otherwise? I have no license. The Segway is not registered as a "vehicle". By what theory of law am I sent to the "pay the man" window?
Of those /.ers out there that *have* ridden a Segway, who thinks that they're too dangerous for a sidewalk, given that the following is now allowed:
:-)
- jogging
- baby strollers
- jogging with baby strollers
I've tried one out; I think they would be acceptable on sidewalks. You can't compare them to bicycles, roller blades, skateboards, or scooters. I think anyone that has ridden one would agree that they are completely different.
The police (and other folks) in ATL have decided that they might not be a bad idea either. The cops ordered 6 of them, while other private companies have ordered a few. Check out CNN's take on it here.
I dont see the segway being used much out door in a rural environment. I see it being very feasable say in a highrise building say for mail delivery. or say in a very dence urban area. It just woudlnt' make sence in a rural area to say drive to work. unless you work within a mile of home. I would see this also working well in large complex coorperation large warehouses or factories. I used to work at UPS as a child and they had bicycles that could be used to run arrands within the wharehouse. parts of which were over a half a mile long.
They would be very stable on ice if they used studded tires. i am sure one could make chains removable strap on studs which could be used. then taken off when one is inside. install a set of mud gaurds and you woudl be ready to go
If you were riding a bike in temperatures 40 below zero I'm not surprised you call it a "BB."
You claimed that the Segway is a "vehicle" and a "motor vehicle". I say it isn't.
...prove your case, Mr. Prosecutor...
It's simple English. You ride on it, it was built to ride on from place to place, so it's a vehicle. It's driven by a motor, so it's a motor vehicle.
If you're talking about whether it meets the specialized definition of a motor vehicle in a certain act, that's not what I was arguing. We're talking about whether there's a basis in the common law for regulating this conveyance.
You made slanderous statements that I recklessly endangered other travelers.
You're talking about riding an unfamiliar conveyance through an area intended for foot traffic. This is a hazard by default. If you are arrested on these grounds (which I am not stipulating would be necessary for your arrest), you might have a chance with a positive defense that your conveyance does not impose a significant additional risk on other traffic, but a positive defense puts the burden of proof on you.
You'd lose, anyway, because the destructive potential of a careless Segway rider is greater than that of a careless person walking, by virtue of added mass and the fact that you don't need to exert an unusual effort to accelerate to a hazardous speed.
We are assuming a warrantless arrest was made (California vehicle code 40300 or your state's equivalent)
Oh, "we" are? I have been assuming no such thing. Unless you have a very good reason why we must in this case, you're just baselessly insisting on
If the position is that it's a hazard (again, not stipulating), its use disturbs the peace, just like waving a gun around, even if you don't fire it.
Now, what you're doing here is trying to shift the burden of proof onto me, by putting me into the role of prosecutor. Then you're changing the argument to all of these fine points of specific laws.
But I'm not the prosecutor, I'm not an accuser, I'm a challenger of your unorthodox claim that the government has no right to regulate Segway traffic, despite the well-known precedents of them successfully regulating any other form of conveyance they please. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof must rest on you.
And, to be frank, you're being a crackpot. Listen to yourself, your argument is taking the form of: "First put this obvious practical consideration aside, next put that generally-accepted fact aside unless you can prove it to my satisfaction, now you take the general burden of proof against my strange claim..."
Crackpotism is a terrible habit to fall into. Sensible people learn to ignore you and you end up spending all your time arguing with other crackpots who each put the burden of proof on each other, make noises back and forth, then walk away each feeling that they won the "debate." Knock it off. It's not good for you.
Now it's true that you put it in the form of a question, but the uncertainty in that question relies on an assumption that references a familiar (utterly crackpot) misconception of legal rigidity. I moved to dismiss the question by attacking that foundation (first, and most importantly, the rigid theory of law deriving strictly from an unbroken chain to ancient laws of other countries does not accurately describe the process by which laws are made or dismissed, regardless of how much tidier this might seem; second, even this ancient principle of the right to use public easement for private travel was never free from restrictions on the mode of transportation, in particular ones against established custom and introducing an additional hazard), and you moved to champion your bizarre structure of assumptions (however incompetently) by demanding I disprove it before we continue.
I'm not here to prove the conventional wisdom to your satisfaction. Your strange and interesting assumption attracted me to try and throw a monkey wrench into it, and see whether you can produce any support for it. If your response to such an attack, as its only present promoter, is to shift the burden of proof (and thus change your position from "this is true" to "this has not been proven untrue"), it is no longer even an interesting claim, but an undistinguished possibility among infinite possibilities. A waste of time.
Your unsupported assumptions are no longer even interesting. You certainly shouldn't expect a more direct response just because you complain that you aren't getting an answer that accepts your unsupported assumptions.
I would really like an answer better than "because we say so".
When it comes right down to it, all law is ultimately based on, "because we say so," backed up with the threat of violent retribution. Different laws and principles of law are just seperated from this by greater or lesser degrees of derivation. There's a principle that it's better if you can introduce new laws and principles as non-contradictory clarifications of old, established principles, but it's not an absolute requirement that must be followed in an unbroken chain to the country's founding. Last year's precedent is more relevant and valid than one that's two-hundred years old, even if they are contradictory and that means there's a break in the chain of derivation where someone just said, "because I said so," and everybody who mattered eventually went along with it.
If there was ever any question of whether government has the right to regulate any and all modes of transportation on public paths and roads, it was solved in this manner a long time ago. Whether the government could have done it 200 years ago is a moot point.
If that's unsatisfying for you, too damn bad. This is real life, not some abstract logic game. Apply some common sense!
My god, your all lazy bastards. This is the most worthless, complete waste of time I have ever seen.
The fact that any laws are being passed for or against this device is simply insane. Why is my tax money being spent on such crap.
I can't believe that some of you are even arguing in defense of this piece of junk.
Thanks,
jb
I see that some doctor in Ohio is arguing against the Segway on sidewalks.
I don't know why he's doing that...there are no sidewalks in Central Ohio....and even if there are, there is no requirement for them to be cleared when it snows.
I largely rely on my own two feet to get me around in Central Ohio (I haven't driven since I totaled my car 4.5 years ago). So, I know first hand about the lack of sidewalks and that they are useless during the winter. I have often wondered if a scooter would make my life easier...which is why I've been following the Segway HT story. But, around here, it would have to be approved for operation on the street (but hopefully in the same class as an bicycle -- or electrically assisted bicycle....)
The Dreamer
You may be a dreamer, but I'm The Dreamer, the definite article you might say!
Good stuff! Thanks. I don't mind being called a crackpot, as long as it's done constructively as you have.
I could have worded my question better. Let's assume a scenario where someone, like hardheaded me, is traveling down the streets and sidewalks of your town on my Segway. A police officer notices and stops me to investigate. It's an amicable confrontation and I am left holding a notice to appear for no license and no registration.
In court, I confront my accuser, the officer. I question him on his understanding of the term "vehicle" and he replies " You ride on it, it was built to ride on from place to place, so it's a vehicle. It's driven by a motor, so it's a motor vehicle." I ask him to point to that section in the vehicle code. He says it's probably in there somewhere.
On the basis of that "evidence" I am instructed to go to the cashier's window and cleanse my guilty pockets. The officer thinks it's a vehicle, and he has been on the force for over fifteen years, so he must know what is right.
Most people would pay the money, and never ride their Segway again. And fly their flag on Sunday and feel lucky to live in a free country. This offends my sense of justice.
Some points:
It is a privilege to drive a motor vehicle. Everyone loves this statement, so I am including it, even though I assert that my Segway does not fit the legal definition of "vehicle".
"[W]hether government has the right to regulate any and all modes of transportation on public paths and roads,..was solved...a long time ago." I'd like the cites supporting your statement.
Careless operation of a Segway (or anything else, licensed or not) is a public hazard. If someone is injured, the guilty party has none of my sympathy.
In California, a warrantless arrest, such as the above, under the vehicle code must be made under CVC 40300. Your state probably has a similar code.
Your statement "the right to use public easement for private travel was never free from restrictions on the mode of transportation, in particular ones against established custom and introducing an additional hazard" is correct, as long as you understand that the supporting cases are based on the extra burden of *commercial* use of the public roads. (It is possible to be private and commercial simultaneously.)
The burden of proof *should* fall upon the moving party. Far too often it does not. In the case above the prosecution was allowed a free slam-dunk against all the rules this society celebrates. This creates disrespect for the law, and it also creates screwballs like me.
I think that a municipal code such as "no bicycles, skateboards, Segways, (etc) are allowed to be used on sidewalks, (etc.)..." would be the proper way to regulate the use of Segways, *Not* the improper extension of the state vehicle codes.