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China Plans Moonbase
jfruhlinger writes: "According to this BBC news article, the Chinese government plans to put a human on the moon by 2010, with the long-term goal of 'set[ting] up a base on the moon and min[ing] its riches for the benefit of humanity.' The article seems to think that the program is more for the benefit of China's defense and aerospace industry. D'ya think they can pull it off?"
Moon unit alpha, or moon unit zappa?
They should switch to democracy instead!
Will the transmissions from the moon have the content from the Washington Post censored out?
Land at the apolo sites and prove once and for all wether the americans managed to land there first?
I've see the pictures and they look a bit dodgy to me
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Our long-term goal is to set up a base on the Moon and mine its riches for the benefit of humanity.
I guess the Chinese will have all the market share for selling green cheese to the world.
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
I wonder what would happen if China offered the US participation in the program. It probably would not happen but if China is serious about benefiting the whole of mankind (?) they should consider such an offer.
"Can they pull it off"
I hope so. Perhaps this is the start of the second space race?
It would not necessarily be a bad thing if the US government thought China might successfully build a moon base. Perhaps there would be more serious initiatives to encourage more space exploration and development on this side of the Pacific.
Hey, it worked with Sputnik...
One would have expected a CAPITALIST nation to be the first to start strip-mining one of the few untouched natural resources we have left. But it's for "The Benefit of Humanity", so that makes it alright.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
if this will bring more money to NASA?
How could the USA stand by and let the chinese be the first to build a base on the moon? I'm sure the military would be interested if nothing else.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
This can only be a good thing, regardless of whether the Chinese Government ultimately succeeds. As I said in a bit more detail here,
'China's moon mining plan is perhaps one of the best things that could have happened as far as space exploration is concerned. The world's primary space organisation, NASA, is constantly having its budget chipped away by the US government. Hopefully, China's future successes in space missions will force the US, and other countries, back into research and development of technologies needed for space flight and colonization such as nuclear propulsion, terraforming and techniques for mining resources on off-earth locations such as the moon and asteroid belts.'
Who knows - three hundred years from now, our decendents could look back on this day and say 'thanks to China pushing the world into a new space race, we managed to develop the technologies that allowed us to get off that overcrowded and overpolluted chuck of rock that we called Earth, before it killed us all off for good.'
Janie took my gun...
If China's gonna do it, we have to, and before they do. What if they get the best spot? Good news, I say.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
have to do this first.
:-)
hey, we claimed the moon as owers
but realy, I think that the US congress will feel they need to reexert the USs power by being the first to put a base on the moon.
what riches does the moon have anyway? last I checked, it was all junk rock for the most part.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
One has to think that China has their priorities mixed up here. Considering that this is a country that in which not everyone gets enough to eat, and innocent children are murdered for violating population guidelines. I mean, people die in un-humane conditions in sweatshops in this country, and they are spending a mass amount of money to go to the moon? I fail to see the point.
just beacuse your guy in the white house wants to destroy habitat to keep his country going (only his country) does not mean that they really dont want to do research or something worthwhile with it
dont shoot it down simply because your guv doesnt like it and is going for mars
regards
john jones
It's about time that the moon got a base. It just boggles my mind why NASA never did that, it's so much cheaper to launch something from the moon. I'm glad at least the Chinese have some vision (I think).
So where can I write up for my apparment on the moon?
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
Wouldn't it be more economical to capture and mine a mineral rich asteriod?
One thing of interest in all this that isn't mentioned in the BBC story: as of the mid 1990s, anyway, the official position of the People's Republic of China was that the Apollo program was faked (or at least that it "hadn't been proved true"). My junior year of college (1994-95), I had a roommate who was a grad student in Astronomy. There was a big conference on planetary science at our school, with several scientists from the PRC in attendence. Apparently everything had to be carefully orchestrated so that these scientists wouldn't have to attend any talks in which the US moon landings were a given, since they'd be politically required to stand up and dispute it or they'd be in trouble back home! She (my roommate) says that they (the scientists) didn't actually belive this hokum, but that the conference organizers didn't want to endanger their careers/lives.
I'm not sure how this idea got intot he PRC leadership -- senile Chairman Mao watching Capricorn One too many times? Unless the PRC has changed its tune, we may be witness to the odd and embarassing spectacle of the Chinese claiming to be the first on the moon...
jf
Seems like last time i was watching the simpsons, they were saying something about the moon being owned by the US.. is this true? and if so, wont China have to rip down that US flag and put up their own.. in which case the US will have to attack china.. heeeeeeyy... MOON WARS!! w00t!
MABASPLOOM!
Does this mean my real estate values are going to increase at last?
From my Autobiography - "Lifestyles of the Sad and Desperate"...
The Americans sent men to the moon using 1960s technology. The very thought of this makes my blood run cold. However, it worked.
I'd say any sufficiently determined organization with enough money to sink into the project could build a moon base.
Another factor: They'll find it easy to recruit enthusiasts from all over the world. Imagine a brain drain toward China.
There's an awful lot of people in China to benefit from this however, so 'benefit of mankind' isn't such a bad summary. Also as others have said, if the other super powers of the world take back up the space race, it will certainly be a benefit to the world.
-- Azaroth
really means, for the benefit of China.
Doesn't every government say, and probably think, that in order to benefit humanity, they must have control?
No one ever says, for the benefit of humanity, I'm giving control of this X to other governments.
Oh wait, I guess the USA does give things away. But I thought we were a fascist country? Why would we give things away?
There's a good chance. Clearly, technology is more advanced than in the sixties and early seventies, which was the last time "putting a man on the moon and bringing him back alive" was attempted. In which case, the chances of success are much better now.
More importantly, the Chinese government has nothing to prove in world politics. Contrast this to the USA who had to be seen to succeed for the purposes of cold war propoganda. This suggests that if the Chinese do fail, we won't be subjected to second rate science fiction movies demonstrating how marvellous they are.
The other thing that bothers me is the alien problem. As everyone knows, the Appolo missions were mothballed because of the politcal tension between the Illuminati and the Aliens. Have China come to some agreement with the alien presence? We'll just have to wait and see.
the creation od nuclear silos. not only that but they will put a powerfull rciever up there and monitor communications.
uh-ho, is china begining a cold war or something?
think about how scary it would be if china got a large amount of nukes up there. they could hold the world hostage, and becasue of there population, they would not fear the lost of life that is possable on there side.
scary stuff.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Can they get someone to and back from the moon by 2010 - Hell yes. They have at least a million young men who are willing to risk thier lives for a chance at glory and honor.
Will they do it before we do? - A resounding 'Hell yes'. They don't have to go through all the red tape that we've made for ourselves. IF the goverment says we are going to do it they will do it.
Will they establish a STABLE moon base by 2010 - Hell no. There will be too many countries trying to sabatoge those ambitions(present country included) for both political and security reasons.
I learned where the word sabatoge came from by watching Star Trek movies.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
The Chinese couldn't successfully launch a rocket into orbit before their spies stole US technology that gave them a 10+ year boost.
I doubt with their current setup that they could actually succeed, but then all they have to do is steal more tech from the US, and that shouldn't be very hard considering how open and naive the US is.
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
If sloppy recollection serves there are 800 million people in China surviving as agriculturalists. Modern history suggests China will fail by way of revolution as it cannot maintain so large a segment of it's population in near serfdom while an elite enjoys all the 'benefits' of the modern world. Sooner than later China will be brought to answer to another, likely, *people's revolution*. number 9 9 9 9 9 9
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Naw, they are going to rig a huge explosion to send the moon spinning out of earths orbit.
Hey, it's one way to get well ahead in the space-race...
From my Autobiography - "Lifestyles of the Sad and Desperate"...
what minerals they want to mine there ?
AFAIK the moon is of the same material as earth, making it mainly a large rock of silicondioxide and iron.
Interesting stuff like uran/gold/etc. should be too rare to mine it commercially (high expenses for transport !).
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
havent no-one of you ever watched anime? its obvious they're going to build some kind of big laser and blow every mayor city in pieces.
seriously, having a base on the moon has several advantages, especially if you can get resources there. ie launching other missions, building spacestations etc.
and im sure it has a military value aswell, to not talk about the scientific advantages
...really means, for the benefit of China.
These are the Maoist, left-wing fascist dictators were are talking about. They don't do anything for the benefit of China. Remember the Great Leap Forward with 30 million peasants killed as the leaders took over the farms and forced people onto slave plantations?
Perhaps it doesn't matter if they can pull it off. If it's sufficiently plausible that they might, it might provoke the US Gov and NASA to perform the necessary digital extraction procedure on their own space programme. After all, look what they achieved when they were chasing the Soviets. :-)
If this guy has anything to do with it
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscie
shame physics always gets in the way of great ideas
I don't give a damn who pulls this sort of thing anymore, as long as I get to see it in my lifetime. I'm sick of waiting for cool things to become profitable before actually being done. I can't believe that the ISS is still being built, although it has had some very close shaves in the US Congress over the past few years, all because of fucking money. What's so difficult about kicking the secretary's personal assistant's secretary's page off of the government payroll, stopping the spending on idiotic pork projects and $6,000 curtains (thanks Asscroft), and just using the tax money to do things that our decendents will look back at and say, "Bitchin'?"
Imagine the military possibilities of this base.
If they just waited until the moon passed over the US and dropped a penny . . .
I'm all for this if it causes China to stop harassing Tibet and Taiwan. There is no one to oppress and mass-murder on the moon, so there might be some benefit if the genocidal Beijing regime turns its attention from earthly targets and directs its imperialism at the Moon.
don't the Chinese have the right idea? That is to say, we hear a lot about how the Americans want to send a manned mission to Mars, but its unclear to me that the Americans have sufficient real-world experience in long term manned deep space missions. To first establish a long term base on the moon would go a long way towards gaining that experience. It's only 3 days away, as opposed to several years for Mars. Just a thought. Comments?
NO CARRIER
Socialist countries were the major imperialists of the 20th Century, actually. The Soviets (dozens of subject countries conquered), mainland China (the Koreas, Tibet, and the ongoing threat of aggression against Taiwan). North Vietnam (vs South Vietnam and Cambodia). Iraq against Kuwait (Saddam's party is Baath Socialist).
Oops. Almost forgot a little matter involving the National Socialists in Germany at mid century....
China celebrated its first landing on the moon, only to find out that the US already had a base there and was throwing a luau? :P
They can't do that, it's the United States' moon! Remember? We put a flag on it!
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Exactly. What's up there, that you can't get easier here? Basalt and quartz are plentiful enough here. What could you do with a lot of silicon, vacuum, and free solar energy?
What you might get from the moon:
- Astronomical observations (especially on far side)
- First class secrecy (on far side)
- Solar power?
- Fair vacuum, easily accessed
- Prestige
- High ground, drop rocks on anybody you don't like (Heinlein)
.. that the Chinese we're actually buying some desert in Nevada.. hrm...
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If the Chinese become a space power, and they survive the soon-coming WWIII, we will be powerless against them! The Jwindz Philosphers will rule us, the true men, with their drugs and weapons, and will protect us, from the Morons and beasts and Manshonyaggers! No no no the Jwindz must be stopped befor it is too late!! The Golden Jwindz that was oh oh the Golden Jwinz that was oh oh!!!
1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila floor
Yea, if the Moon was over the US and the Chinese dropped a penny, the penny would fall right there at the Chinese Astronaut's foot, imagine the horror in the US!
Now if the Chinese put a big mass driver up there and chucked a couple metric tons a shot at the US, it'd be something.
The moon base idea is cool, but since when was China interested in humanity?
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
But can't we defend our planet with armies of turtle-people and amplified psychic anger of peeved minks?
I think I read somewhere that a giant inflatable gold starship is part of Bush's SDI plans.
Wait a minute, if China is the 3rd country to successfully put a human in orbit, doesn't that make the score Communism 2, Democracy 1?
And you thought property values were high in Hong Kong!
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
Lets also hope it's governed by similar laws as Antarctica.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Is this the next step for weapons testing?
China overflow error, moving to the moon.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
If its one thing Amercan's can't stand, its communists on our Moon!
Actually, I hope they do it. While the Mars missions are interesting, they're more of the old Apollo type thinking of "do it and die": Get on TV, get great ratings, have a few reruns, forget about it.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
It's funny though, is it just talk like the russians did in the 60's and 70's? or are they serious. The united states doesnt have the balls to try something so ambitious. Hell we dont even have the capability to make a rocket as powerful as the saturn 5 anymore. (capability as in nasa's abilities and our government body having enough leaders not looking at the prostate in their own rears first hand..) Hell we made the stupid decisiot to choose a vaporware shuttle replacement over a working prototype.. and now the new shuttle program is now dead..
sorry but the US as a leader in space research is dead... put a fork in us as we are done.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
C'mon. Anybody who's read anything by Arthur C. Clarke knows that the Chinese land on the moon in 2010.
Granted, it's Europa, but still.
Its incredible how fast China is growing. It is today the country that receives most of worlds investiments. Its expending more money on education and infrastructure than most of the large countries combined. Its incredible that today they have the world largest army.
:)))
I think its incredible to see a country that suffered so much growing like this and doing stuff like this that sure add a lot to humanity...
Fabio - Sumare/Sao Paulo/Brazil/South America/Earth/Solar System/Milky Way/Universe
http://www.morroida.com.br
the Chinese government plans to put a human on the moon by 2010
Ignignokt: Here it comes!
Err: Here it comes!
Ignignokt: You will be destroyed!
Err: You're going down!
Ignignokt: The explosion will be of extrordinary magnitude!
Ignignokt: Just hang on.
Err: It takes a while!
(With apologies to ATHF and Williams Street, Ltd)
If they do land on the moon, they'll find the Brits have been there since the seventies, with a moonbase populated by gorgeous women in mauve wigs that shoot down UFO's.
Garg
Garg
Alumnus, Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters
They set us up the base?
sic transit gloria mundi
Space race again ! If this is serious, I can see the NASA and ESA budgets going up !! Maybe I will be able to get a space ride before I die :)
If it comes to a second space race hopefully the NASA gets more funding so they don't have to buy their parts from ebay anymore!
...if 1.5 billion people say they say they are gonna do it, they will.
Be it in business, life, current affairs -- whatever the situation. It's almost ingrained into the Chinese worldview. This has been shown time and time again, through the projects that have been completed and/or worked upon, in China. The Great Wall and The Three Rivers Gorge are the first two obvious examples that come to mind; the manmade Kunming Lake elicits the same thoughts, as well.
Now, I'm not saying these tasks are/were not costly, both in terms of dollars and human lives, nor am I saying that many (especially current) Chinese projects are without corruption and/or controversy.
Rather, what I am pointing out is the historical Chinese trend of "progress" against odds. I don't really want to use the term "determination", because there is certainly the very real possibility that people work on these things against their will. Yet in any case, foreigners who've worked there on corporate projects for a while will tell you that, when working with a Chinese corporation, while they may promise you something seemingly outrageous... but short of a few exceptions, they won't promise you something they can't/won't complete.
The aforementioned exceptions are, however, predictably tied to corruption, where unwilling corporate heads -- or even middle management -- can very easily tie up a project with red tape, unless there's a little cash to "oil the wheels". If China's going to build a moon base, this corrupt undercurrent, in my opinion, is the most likely stumbling block. (As an aside this goes for the 2008 Olympics, too. After just getting back from Beijing a few weeks ago, I will be most amazed if they solve, at least to a large degree, the pollution problem, as they have promised.)
In most cases, however, while a project may take 10, 20, or two hundred years, the Chinese have historically tended to accomplish any goal that they've set out to do.
Again, it's all in the mindset... a "slow but steady" one, at that. Westerners tend to think in short, digestible timeframes. "Project ABC has to be completed in X months." The Chinese, on the other hand, look at things across a much, much larger timetable. What's a hundred years, when you've been around for several-thousand, already?
Granted, in a modern world, this opens the door to corruption and inefficiency... but how many of those "really cool projects", on which you've spent countless hours at work, have gotten tossed into the circular file because they were deemed too costly or too time-inefficient by the corporate heads?
So they say they'll have a moon base? I really don't doubt it. It may not happen in my lifetime, or yours... but it will probably happen, nevertheless.
Where to begin, where to begin...
Sorry, but do you think mankind will move to another pleace in peace and harmony when Earth is polluted and overcrowded? I would say, if someone is going to survive that desaster, the problem will move along with those people. Mankind somehow has the tendency to fight, sometimes for stupid reasons. (I know what Darwinism means, so I don't expect us to change within 10 or 100 years.)
I honestly don't believe we can solve this kind of problem anywhere, if we cannot solve it here, on this one Earth we have.
Slow tubby, your not on the moon yet
So will we see a Chinese dominated future?
If the Chinese gain a toehold on the Lunar surface, they'll shortly have access to the mineral rich resources of the solar system... and a virtual monopoly on interplanetary exploration and development.
A fightening thought also occurred to me only a week ago. Perhaps there is a more pragmantic reason why we have not exploited resource rich space, as we could have since the 70s.... the Gold Markat. It seems to me that those in power may fear the huge influx of previously 'precious' metals that mining asteroids would bring to earth. The flood of gold would destroy markets overnight - for some people, it's enough of a concern to wage WAR to prevent.
Does anybody else think that mankind might actually be held back out of pure and simple greed?
If they want to benefit humanity, they can start by setting human's free, and adobt a government proper to the survival of man. With their capitalism they could do many more things than they do know, with such a big population.
There can be no benefit to humanity, if 'one' man does not benefit. You cannot divorce the individual from humanity.
They can't touch our mooon! Damn dirty chinks!
now why would the earth want to kill us off?
.sigless since 2003
China has today's tech, an enormous brain pool to pick from(statistically, of course), and natural resources. Even if they were 30 years back in tech, they could do it better that the US did with Appollo. Remember, the Appollo guidance computer had less than 40K of memory. (bottom of the page)
It is no secret that they now have good lauch vehicles(or rockets, if you prefer) and supposedly have made copies of the US spacesuits of old, "better than the originals" of course.
The only thing they need is a strong resolve to go there.
This would be great if it became a second phase of the space race. It's also a better long term move than a space station. While a space station has a lot of advantages, a moon base has more long term growth potential.
;-)
The *only* way the USA would ever participate in establishing a permanent base on the moon would be if it was politically advantageous to the people in power. Congressmen and the President don't take a shit anymore unless they check the polls first to see how it will effect their popularity. Micromanagement of the government based on polling data will be the death of us all. If China is seen as a real threat and is serious about establishing a moon base I would imagine you'd see the EU and USA team up to make sure that the efforts by the People's Republic of China are balanced out by the efforts of more democratic nations. Afterall, we can't have the bloody commies on the moon right? They'll shoot nukes at us and paint a giant red star on the surface of the moon to signify their strength.
China pushing the world into a new space race, we managed to develop the technologies that allowed us to get off that overcrowded and overpolluted chuck of rock that we called Earth, before it killed us all off for good.
WTF? You mean before we managed to totally destroy ourselves? Earth is not killing us, it is the other way around. --- FYI
Has any country, other than USA successfully landed on the moon?
.sigless since 2003
No, as usual, you completely missed the point of the post.
I specifically didn't deny that such dissent existed, nor did I say that there weren't a lot of other problems. My point was that it probably will happen, be it good, bad or indifferent.
Also -- totalitarian? Arguably, yes. Dictatorial? No. One of the biggest fallacies in looking at the modern Chinese state.
Since there are no borders on our claim of the moon, I would consider this to be a violation of our borders. Keep in mind that the moon is the the 51st state. Unfortunately there isn't a tax base so far. Nevertheless, we claimed the moon a long time ago. Perhaps we could hold their spacecraft for a few weeks and demand an apology for the illegal landing of their craft?
Theft begins at the level of the individual.You steal the means of production of from the capitalist (including the donkey and plow from the Kulak) and force him or her to toil at the point of the gun FOR THE BENEFIT OF MANKIND.
Why is it hard to see that it isn't any harder for the socialist to steal land from your neighbor (nation or individual) if it's OK to steal his means of producing?
Me physicist. Me make rockets.
Is Tibet their yard? What about some of their other neighbors????
Didn't I read something about that somewhere? :-)
But notably she dosn't say that they did go to the moon. The laughter is probably madness caused by the brainwashing they've been doing.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
It's not a sweatshop if people really want to work there (line up to get in).
You mean they fell for that backlot footage of us landing on the moon?
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
EOM
Somehow I think the United States will beat them up there. Besides, I rather like the idea of the moon staying the same color. There would something weird about a red moon... wait, wasn't that in a B rated movie somewhere?
Someone cheated you by selling you something he doesn't own. Don't expect the paper you might have gotten has any validity when man starts colonizing the moon.
to make this work effectively, their moonbase would have to be nearly or totally self-sustaining. As it stands now they would have to regularly ship supplies(oxygen in some form) and food at a prohibitive cost.
From what I've read there isn't anything of extraordinary value on the moon to be mined either, not to mention the difficulties in returning said product, also prohibitively expensive. They'd really have to come up with some low gravity refined products that are REALLY worth something to make this economically feasible.
Of course they could have come up with a low cost launch solution. Yeah. Right.
The best reason to setup a moon base by anyone would be to use it as a stepping stone to somewhere else, but that would still be an unfeasible/costly proposition.
If the title was "US to build Moon base", 90% of the discussions would be related to technical issues, and similar things.
When the title is "China to build Moon base", 90% of the discussions are related to 'communists', 'stealing technology', 'human rights'. I presume, most of the people have never been to China.
Couldn't people stop 'stealing technology' stories for a moment (think US would have nukes if they haven't *stolen* German scientist and research?), and talk about feasibility of this project, no matter who does it.
There are so many sites dealing with politics - don't turn Slashdot into another one.
Will they do it before we do? - A resounding 'Hell yes'.
Uh, 1969 2010, asswipe.
Lunar Embassy
Nothing like a good space race to reinstill that desire to go to the stars. If it wasn't for Russia we wouldn't have even really tried to get to the moon.
I wonder if this will cause us to boost NASA's spending budget
The DoD has a lot of responsibilities and is not geared up properly to handle them. They have to go through a 10-15 year retooling process to handle the small war threat and then turn right around and fire up the next generation of weapons systems because our 20 year technical advantage will have been mostly eaten up at that point. Also, there's a war on so I think that such a relatively long term threat is best handled by abrogating or renegotiating the space treaty that kills the free enterprise system outside of earth (no property ownership allowed) and encourage aerospace companies to team with manufacturing and mineral extraction firms into combines that can profitably extract the riches of space and fund the defense needs of their installation and provide an economic base for whatever military needs to be stationed up there as well.
For that sort of vision, I'd certainly be willing to put in $500 investment a year out of my retirement funds and take both a security leap, a science leap, and a nice portfolio boost along the way.
Much better, don't you think?
I wonder what would happen if China offered the US participation in the program. It probably would not happen but if China is serious about benefiting the whole of mankind (?) they should consider such an offer.
... as if they had modern special effects back in 1969) will be enough to at least send someone up to secure that historical site. :-)
It is good for humanity, regardless.
If China is serious about this, maybe it will be get US Government off of its sorry ass, stop underfunding NASA, and start actually doing something to facilitate long term economic exploitation of space.
If the US doesn't get off its ass, humans will still have finally gotten off their sorry asses and begun colonizing space. Once we have colonies independent of earth, the liklihood of our extinction goes way down. This is a Good Thing(tm), regardless of whether those humans come from the United States, China, or Timbuktu.
If the Chinese manage to start another space race with the United States I will personally take my hat off to them, because apparently we (the United States, and the West in general) don't have the will, or the vision, to do it on our own, without competition from the Russians or someone else.
Maybe the threat of having the Chinese sweep away all physical proof of the lunar moon landings (to promote the absurd myth that the landings were somehow fake
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
For the Chinese colonisation of
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The Red Planet
#include cymbal_crash.h
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
Boo hoo hoo! Productive members of society won't fund my favorite welfare project! Boo hoo hoo!
including obtaining some precedent for mineral rights on Luna
Who owns the Moon? The country that first planted the flag there, or all of humanity? If the latter, shouldn't the mineral rights be assigned based on a global referendum? The moon is our closest neighbour, so any legal precedent surrounding the exploitation of the cosmos needs to be resolved here.
Thinking about it, I seem to remember a big hoo-hah a few years ago about a company that bought up land rights to the Moon. They were selling patches of land as novelty gifts with their own certificate and everything.
I hope any future lunar exploiters are going to respect the rights of the prior landowners.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
Man, the sheer stupidity of some posters on /. is staggering. Mind numbing really... certainly an indication of the fall of humanity.
How does mining the 'untouched natural resources' of the moon harm mankind. Is it hurting the earth's biosphere to do so (beyond the checmicals used for a launch that is)? Is there a biosphere or anything else to really be concerned about on the moon? Wouldn't mining the moon for materials and minerals otherwised having to be mined the Earth be a good thing?
God damned, their should be an IQ quotient on the internet that bars anyone with a computer who is incapable of saying anything but the liberal or greenpeace political line of BS.
God hug a tree (or a moon rock) you fucking hippie...
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
so if the space shuttle is still running on 8 bit processors, i would imagine that will is the principal issue. the us seems to think that everything that doesn't entertain or allow us to drive trucks is not worthy of investment. go east young man--and the world comes full circle.
Which would be done in the name of HOMELAND SECURITY. Remeber war is peace, and if we are not fighting somebody we will be attacked again. If this happens the US will feel above international laws again, like they have in the past, and attack it in the name of preventing terrorism.
I don't think the moon's resources will justify the proposed Chinese effort, but it's a symptom of the failures of central planning (as if we needed another) that they're trying to dictate what the market will be, rather than letting it happen naturally.
IOW, the US government should "stand by" and do nothing (whether they will resist the urge to waste taxe$ in space is another question). Let's look at how space-commerce (the voluntary, non-government-supported kind) is going in the real world, right now:
So far, it's ALL rich people, and all "tourism." 100%! No exceptions!!
This was to be expected, but think ten years (and maybe 100 orders of magnitude cheaper) down the road...Space-tourism is going to evolve toward one thing, and it's a thing that governments (of any sort) don't seem to want to consider:
SEX tourism. Couples are going to want to have intercourse without gravity (and without annoying swimming pools, scuba gear, etc.). Many honeymooners will want to, uh...start out with a bang (sorry! Couldn't resist).
This will happen naturally, I'm sure of it. Ultimately, all this sex will be the main thing supporting science up there, but no central planning bureaucrat (Chinese or US) will anticipate this, it'll just happen. I only wish that I could find some way to make money off my prediction when it comes to pass...
JMR
(My own opinions, nobody else seems to want them.)
Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
When the title is "China to build Moon base", 90% of the discussions are related to 'communists', 'stealing technology', 'human rights'. I presume, most of the people have never been to China.
Would you like us to provide some quotes and information from Chinese dissidents and democracy advocates who complain about just these same things? Oh. I guess they have never been to China either.
We just do not have the technology base or orbital infrastructure to launch such a venture. Launching 20 or so heavy lift cargo rockets and a couple of manned missions is childs play in comparison.
i dont think all of those poor and hungry are in democracies
you will probably find most of the poor and hungry are in despotic governments or enlightened countries like north korea
then again, i heard north korea has elections and let the people vote, so maybe we can count them as a democracy
God Damned! The intelligence of the idiots posting on /. today is staggeringly low.
Think about the physics of such a thing. Even an unmanned rocket can only build up so much acceleration before it's fuel spent... adding more fuel is mass that has to be moved, so there is a fine point at which checmical rockets stop producing additional thrust, even if their cost goes up. Rockets built on the earth and hauled to the moon (since it would require rather complicated manufacturering to do it indigenously on the moon, as well as the cost associated in hauling the equipment and multitude of personell to do so) would be relatively small. This means they would be slow.
Now, what benefit is there firing a relatively slow rocket/missle with an atomic warhead on it towards the earth from the moon. You would only need a radar and observation system to watch that small volume of space for incoming rockets. The rocket would have a very small payload since you have a small rocket that needs at least minimal re-entry shielding for the warhead... it may even be alot of shielding depending on re-entry angle and velocity. The rocket is going to be a dead object moving along a fixed trajectory and easily tracked, for at least a day if not two or three(this assumes a heavy acceleration at lauch mind you, unlike manned rockets). Not only would China be buried under an avalanch of US and Soviet missles, but most likely we could intercept the incoming missles well outside the highest levels of the atmoshpere.
You are an idiot.
I think nobody yet said anything about these things:
1. This might be chinese answer to planned missile shied (Star Wars?)
2. Different research and manufacturing environment than on earth.
3. USA will be blowing comets in the space. And China might have something to say to that.. (remember Star Wars- project and current plans to bring nuclear warheads to space..)
4. If I remember correctly.. There was TV-show for April 1. talking about "third option". Which was to move earth's ruling elite to moon (or mars).
You know, the one with the educational film in it.
The Moon belongs to America...
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
D'ya think they can pull it off?
Let's see, the US pulled off landing a man on the moon in 7 1/2 years. China has years of technological growth since then, and more manpower (and more resources?) then the US did at that time. The state of the art for propultion is far beyond what it was back in the day US landed on the moon.
Sounds like a piece of cake.
To start mining would take a much reduced cost per kg to lift, most likely heavily reusable spacecraft. Getting it down doesn't have to be the same way - read Robert Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for ideas, which also converts into a nice big weapon. Gotta love standing at the top of a deep gravity well.
I think this is not only possible, but probable. And potentially scary for nations that don't play nicely with China. Once to the moon, elsewhere is next. Population pressure unlike anywhere but India may provide a good motivation to think long term about spaceflight. Or maybe I'm wrong.
But there is no reason the Chinese can not succeed if they want to.
=Blue(23)
LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
I think it's should be obvious that China would do this for national prestige - can anyone name a country that wouldn't? - and it's attendant military benefits. Whether they will succede in the given time frame is another question altogether. 2010 is an extremely near date even though the technology to get there is not rocket science (pun intended) any more. The chinese seem to be buying up a lot of already developed Russian technology and have the will to do this adventure, but given that China seems to have difficulties developing it's own *reliable* high tech (J10 fighter for example, Long March crashes for another) I have the feeling that if this does indeed go forward, it will more likely be around 2015 to 2020.
There seem to be two different solutions to the problem you mention.
a) all people suddenly get more responsible and start thinking twice before hurting others (or polluting their environment, etc.)
b) a big brother comes to power and establishesh a glorious new world order, where people are forbidden to hurt others (or pollute their environment, etc.)
a) seems impossible
b) is possible, and quite frightening.
recent tendencies (which can also be seen here, on slashdot) show that americans (who are de-facto the rulers of the world today - better economics and army than anyone else) tend to agree that b) is the perfect answer for them, hence - for everyone.
i'm scared...
The economic/scientific bebefits of a moonbase would be of more advantage to China in a time of Peace. It wouldn't survive a war.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Very true, though I see no reason why this revolution should be limited to china in a [post 9/11 (sorry, couldn't resist!)] globalised world. The reality is that a large proportion of the world's population lives and works to provide cheap clothes, toys and electronics for the 1st world countries.
I would say its just a matter of time before they rise up against their opressors as has happened repeatedly in the past despite the apparent power of the ruling classes.
We shouldn't complain if it happens - think of the poor man's champion, Robin Hood, who is celebrated by western culture for using violence to redistribute wealth more equitably.
All your moonbase are belong to us!
-- Adam
Won't they get a better trajectory from a base on Mars? That's our idea, isn't it?
It must be noted that China seems to have an accute inferiority complex. They are always trying to get out from under the shadow of the West. They feel like instead of being a more or less third world country (except in the cities of course), they should be the ones dominating the world. After all, their culture was the most technologically advanced on the planet for centuries. They seem to have a "this time it is our turn" mentallity. To them, this Pax Americana is like a jab in the eye. They desperately want to be the first at something, anything, and so we have this scheme to be the first with a moon base. It's just one in a string of strange ideas to be the first at...something.
I truly think that China *should* give their people more freedom [democracy is symptomatic of that, but as seen in America, does not necessarily imply freedom]. Moreover, I think that China has a better chance of succeeding both politically and moonbase-wise, if they do give their people more freedom.
But I don't think they will.
That being said, whether or not they give their people freedom, I hope they do succeed in putting up a moonbase.
The reason for this is that freedom tends to thrive when people can leave -- thus, one of the greatest recent blows to freedom is that we have run out of frontiers. Once the "takers" can fix their victims in place, then they tend to rule. But when their victims can leave, then they actually have to provide their victims with enough incentive to stay [read freedom] that they can benefit at least partially.
Thus, the opening of America helped the cause of freedom greatly in many European countries.
Thus, the problem of reducing freedoms may fix itself, if we gain a new frontier.
I truly hope that China will do this. Yes, it means that the moonbase will be populated under the control of a very *unfree* government. But resources will build there, and eventually there it will be possible to populate the moon, the asteroid belt, and later Mars, Jupiter's moons, and so on. The order of magnitude of the territory available is stunning -- and it is all packed with the most useful resource known to man.
Freedom.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Will they name it Alpha Centauri? I'm pretty good at terraforming.
Does the Chinese space program have a paypal account I can donate too? :)
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
But really, don't you think that China *might* have some brilliant scientists of their own, out of their *big* population?
Okay, suppose they haven't done anything but stealing technology from the US, -they still need some mighty brain power to put it all together...
Do you still believe they all are stupid spying commie peasants, considering that?
So they might be slaves under a dictatorship and all that, but dumb politics does not make the entire population evil and stupid.
Best regards,
People seem to forget we landed on the moon more than one time. So we didn't do this once it was more like 5 or 6 times.
If this puts space back into the public eye, then it's a Good Thing (tm) through and through.
Ñ'
Who knows, perhaps once their base is established their first half-dozen long-range sorties will be garbage runsto the old Apollo sites, "to eliminate counterrevolutionary evidence."
My own personal hope once upon a time was to someday walk on the elevated boardwalks around the Apollo 11 landing site and see Armstrong and Aldrin's footprints. Don't think it's going to happen, not even for my kids, maybe for my grandkids...
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
It's a surprise that nobody here mention the many attempts by the United States in blocking China to get into space.
The thing started way back in the '50s, and throughout the Cold War, and even AFTER the Cold War has (supposingly) ended.
Take the International Space Station (ISS) for example - why countries like Brazil and Japan are allowed to take part, while China isn't even part of it?
The thing is that the US will NOT let China in taking part in ANY space program, not even those which are supposed to be PEACEFUL.
Wonder why the article concern so much about China's plan for moonbase ? Of course, the only concern for the author is that China must NOT be allowed to go into space.
All these while the Japs are encouraged to take part in space programs.
Don't you think it's kinda double standards ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Unfortunately, this is not the moral High Ground.
I seem to recall something on this written by some science fiction author someplace. I am sure some military planners someplace are sweating over this right now.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Of course if rocks fail they could always build a "death star" laser...
the Chinese government plans to put a human on the moon by 2010, with the long-term goal of 'set[ting] up a base on the moon and min[ing] its riches for the benefit of humanity.
So that's their slant on it eh?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Now don't get me wrong, when the goal is space exploration recognizing that space is a darned dangerous place is all part of the game. It is not the sort of thing you should monkey around with if you're not willing to have ANY casualties. I hope that the Chinese government doesn't end up with the same slip-shot approach that seems to be prevelent in their previous space missions.
They can't colonize the moon! The moon belongs to America, and anxiously awaits the arrival of our astro-men!!!
Let's see. Take the Silicon Dioxide, melt it down, and get glass. Set nice thick panels of the stuff up and put greenhouses underneath. Take the Serpentine (a rock with lots of water in it) and break it down for water. Take the rest of it, and manufacture Nickle - Iron - Titanium steel. Use the titanium steel to make razor blades, and stack the razor blades on top of steam tubes to make solar collectors (razor blades make a great blackbody). Set up chip manufacturing to make small computers, automate this entire process. Now, put the solar collecctors on a rotatable axis above the green houses, and control how much sunlight comes in. Extra sunlight gets collected as electric power. So now you have a pestilence-free food production facility that also produces lots of electric power. Use the electric power to set up a microwave relay station, or to produce rocketry chemicals, or to process the food into high efficiency "food pills" to feed the Chinese below. The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the idea. That's what *can* be done with the resources. Actually, it's just the tip of the iceberg.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Helium 3 is common in the solar wind, and over the centuries, large quantities of it have been deposited in the lunar soil. Both Deuterium-Deuterium nuclear fusion is Deuterium-Tritium fusion are prohibitively expensive. Deuterium-Helium 3 fusion, on the other hand, has the lowest level of initiation and produces the most energy. It has the added bonus of producing no neutrons as byproducts. It is produced through Deuterium-Deuterium fusion, but that would be pointless. The Moon is the only real source.
-chili snow
they might just have figured out capturing solar energy and beaming it to earth, for themselves and perhaps to sell in the world market, is what's needed.
Dude! Go back to school! The 51st state is Alaska.
Well, Is it me or is it just another news in the row for the next decade, after CMOS, the Mayan Calendar and the other things shown? But who cares... we have stepped on mars according to these series of videos... http://www.thule.org/alt3.html
My god, Vonnegut was right.
EMP (Elecltro-Magnetic Pulse) is an effect of a nuclear explosion in atmosphere. On the moon, it won't happen. A 'dirty' enough explosion could cause enough radiation to fry some nearby satalites, but EMP won't do it.
Do not confuse duty with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different.Duty is a debt you owe to yourself.
The Chinese aren't going to the mooon. There are no laundrys and no food delivery there.
but couldn't we verify the Apollo program with Sat imagery? I am not well versed in the limitations of our celestial viewing technologies, but I would think it would be feasable to see the lunar lander, the flag, something to prove all the skeptics wrong. Someone explain why this isn't possible?
I guess its the only place left without a chinese take-away :-)
"min[ing] its riches for the benefit of humanity."
I had the same problem with this concept. And your explanation does make a lot of sense, though it's not specifically discussed in the article. But I wonder if we're not reading too much into the word "mining." This is, after all, a translation of who knows what? It may just be a metaphor for extracting whatever benefits are to be gained from basically ruling our planet-sized moon. The "humanity" business sounds good, but does anyone actually take it seriously? Hmmm...maybe they can institute the "two worlds, two systems" plan, not to be confused with the "one country, two systems" plan?
Seriously, though, it does sound awfully ambitious to me, unless they know something we don't, like how to set up a self-contained environment on an alien body without constant resupply from Earth. *That's* the real rub here. Getting the ore or whatever back to Earth or up into geosynchronous or L5 orbit is child's play compared to the problem of the "Berlin airlift" that would be required to keep them alive.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
china is very crowded. ether start thinning people
out or colonize to the moon. once the moon turns in to a china owned planet they could claim all rights to anything that has to do with the moon.
There's a lot of things up on the moon that are more than abundant there that are much rarer here on Earth. The Helium 3 that it absorbs from the sun over time is sufficient to power the earth for many centuries to come- not to mention all the other stuff.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Meow.
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
NASA doesn't reckon those numbers at all. The shuttle costs a billion and a half to launch. The space station is well over $100bn.
How do you figure (and what sources have you seen) that makes you think those numbers are correct within even an order of magnitude?
Given a little more time, private enterprise would have gotten us into space. Look at John Carmack -- whee!
No. Instead, the governmnet has to rush the gun and abso-fucking-lutely hobble the private sector while trying to rush premature technology into space. Private enterprise has proven to be the best solution to technological inadequacies; as proven throughout history and at the current time.
How to place a thriving American colony on the moon; Lift all restrictions, except those that keep private companies from harming people (i.e., dropping rocket stages in Dallas, Texas).
And, this one will get us on the moon long before China; remove all taxes on any corporation whose primary purpose is to get to the mooon, and remove taxes on their transactions with other corporations. Bingo! You don't even have to subsidize 'em!
But of course the idiots (and they are!) in Congress don't have the balls to consider such a radical move. Lift Restrictions? My God, man, you're talking the end of the world!
-chris
FWIW, my Chinese acquaintance says China isn't even close to the ability to send people to the moon, much less establish a base there within a decade.
and then usa, then the moon
Uh, isn't the moon (and, well, all of space) considered international land, like the poles? So why does any one country think they can start *mining* there. We haven't even begun to do a thorough scientific investigation...and somebody wants to unilateraly MINE there??
Fine. I got dibs on Mars.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I'll take a swing at a few of your ideas, although I can't address much about the photographs as I've never studied them.
> After watching the video of the moon rover driving around and kicking up dust as it went... and then seeing the video of the Lunar Lander rocketing off the moon's surface without stiring up any dust at all????? The only way I could see the smaller force of the rover kicking up more dust than the larger force of the rocking pod not able to moving ANY dust at all is if the laws of physics are not constant on the moon.
Actually, the trap you're falling into is based on assumptions about how dust behaves on the Moon. Those assumptions almost always stem from observed behavior of dust and dirt on Earth. There are a few key differences, however, that make a HUGE difference in how small particles behave in these two very different environments. They are:
Atmosphere: this is by far the most important, and the most confusing. This causes two things. First is that there's a lack of turbulence that is unfamiliar to those who don't work with vacuum. This is what causes your disparity of observation. You'll notice in the film that the return module of the lander did not fire a rocket directly at the moon, but instead it pushed on the top of the descent module. That means the main thrust of the engine went downward into the descent module and then straight out sideways. On Earth, this would cause a swirl of air all around the module, but on the Moon, there's no air to swirl, and the thrust never gets to the ground, so there's no dust movement. Second, dust on the Moon is not like dust or dirt or sand on Earth. On Earth, these things get worn smooth by air and water. On the Moon, they don't so dust is very hard-edged, and its behavior more closely mimics wet snow than sand.
Gravity: this tends to cause things to behave differently than expected, and it goes hand in hand with the lack of atmosphere. Just as Mr. Armstrong did not descend quickly to the surface, we'd expect dust to fall slowly. However, what the mind fails to suss out is that the lack of air resistance more than makes up for the lesser gravity when small particles are concerned, so when dust falls quickly, it looks odd. However, the rub is that the only place dust can fall as quickly as a human being is in a low gravity vacuum, which would seem to prove that they were in fact on the Moon.
> Not going to get into the issues of trying to pass through the Van Allen Belts wearing suits of 7 layers of 'glass like' material for protection.
This stems from misunderstanding how radiation works on the human body. The method for determining exposure has two factors: intensity and duration. One can get a fairly high dose of radiation and not develop health problems if the the duration is short. Conversely, low exposure for long periods can cause difficulties, which is why x-ray technicians stand behind a wall when they use the machine (else they'd get small doses, but lots of small doses) while you get to stand in the beam (high exposure, but you only do it a few times in your lifetime). The Van Allen belt has (relatively) high radiation levels, but unless you're planning on living in it (and most space stations are positioned outside it (well, inside it, relative to Earth)) you're not going to get a lethal dose. All of the discussions about how much shielding is needed for the Van Allen belt are based on the amount of shielding necessary to block all of the radiation, but it's not necessary to do that if you limit the amount of time spent there. The balance is that the Apollo astronauts did get a dose of radiation, but it was in the area of 1 rem (radiation sickness doesn't normally appear until the levels get to about 20-25 rems), so it wouldn't be particularly dangerous (or at least no more so than the trip to space on the booster rocket was to begin with).
Virg
If China really establishes a mining operation on the moon, this would give them a huge tactical advantage should they choose to use it. Think about it; they don't even have to spend the money to haul or build nuclear weapons up there, all they have to do is hurl a few well-placed rocks and they could easily take out any city in the world.
At least now it should become easier for NASA to get more funding. Welcome to the new space race! Competition is the mother of innovation.
Oh wait even if he didnt sell it to them, then Left wanted to cut security when the cold war was over.
Thanks
My Kids and I feel safe in our SUV =P
.
Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
But what
Do we get the first ever Extra Planetary law suit? And what court would it be tried in?
...welcome non-orientials in their college courses... y'know... to bring DOWN the grade curve?
Heh.
Little yellow bastards. I love every one of 'em.
After having read many a Heinlein novel, I'm surprised that you seem to think it's OK for the Chinese to continue status quo and enslave their people, as long as they develop space travel. Are you hoping for a free ride (read free lunch)?
Think they would lift anyone who isn't a good trustworthy comrade?
As for CAPITALISM and morality (I didn't say BUSINESS and morality) you need to do a quick check of ``Moon is a Harsh Mistress". I'm a Randite. My pursuit of happiness is my moral imperative. I'll have every right to kill the next guy who takes away mine to get his!
As a professed Heinlein fan I'm shocked to see you let the True Believers own the word "moral".
The hope of getting off this planet doesn't lie with Comrades or Blessed believers. It's with geeks scratching out a living developing technology for profit and/or enjoyment. We'll lift without NASA, ESA, or China and without doing it on your dime.
Me physicist. Me make rockets.
Didn't they try to mine on the moon in "Time Machine"? Look at how that turned out. Especially if the stupid Chinese start mining!
Isn't space for everybody? (isn't the earth for that matter). Doesnt the UN regard space as INTERNATIONAL space? So how come we have to wee wee our national flags over it? Mineing the resources for one countries gain. Hmmm.. narrow minded thinking? (guess no change there really)
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Well, we were also in our "infancy" when we got to the Moon (recall, Sputnik went up in 1957, and we were standing on the Moon only twelve years later). They have the benefit of our (and the Russians') experience, and they've got 30 years of extra technology to work with when they do try. Also, the Shuttle wouldn't be much help at all for a Moon shot (it's an orbital vehicle). Disposable rocket boosters a'la the Saturn 5 work better for that sort of thing, in terms of energy (and money) cost to get stuff there.
The technology for living on the Moon has been around for decades. If the Chinses are willing and able to sink the necessary money into making it happen, they have a very real chance of making it happen. This has been what's been angering the Moon colony people in the U.S. It's never been about possibility (well, not since 1978). It's always been about getting the money.
Virg
Don't hold your breath. Over the next few years China will continue to be a capitalist country with a high level of official corruption. At best they will become increasingly capitalist and more totalitarian as their government abandons their ideologial underpinning to embrace market economies. At worst they will achieve success in becoming the chemical waste pit of the modern world, as their non-existant polution controls allow companies to dump highly toxic chemicals into their water supply and aerable land.
In a country where the economy is driven by manufacturing and farming, a trip to the moon is a pipe dream. Significant portions of China's population suffer from poor nutrition and starvation. Those families that are rich ar already exploiting the workers and farmers in a way that makes Western capitalist democrarcies look like a worker's paradise. Intellectual freedom will remain illegal. These are not the conditions that foster investement in new and creative engineering and basic science. In fact, China may actually crest in the next twenty years and then begin to collapse.
If this vision of a competing Chinese space program and a moonbase to mine what? Silocon? Make the Chinese people and government feel good about themselves, great. Unfortunately it will not really do much for humanity and its serious pursuit will not do much to help the plight of the Chinese people.
If China wanted to do something for the world, they would
Fundamentally, China is exactly the same as every other communist country - a totalitarian dictatorship. Frankly, in the modern world their form of government is living on borrowed time. Eventually it will collapse or cease to exist, its greatest legacy being the damage it does in the mean time. At best they will get some people into orbit using bought or borrowed Western technology.
Leave the gun, take the cannoli -- Clemenza, The Godfather
Linux will be the operating system of choice "off planet"? Cool.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
The most amazing thing about this thread is the piles of posts from americans which can be basically summed up as saying...
"Only americans are clever enough to put people on the moon."
Rascism is probably too stong a term, but the cultural arrogance is stunning. It really is not suprising that there's so many groups of people around the world that dislike americans so much - it's enough to wind anybody up.
They could send an Arthur Andersen representative, who can verify that the landing actually took place. That should settle it once and for all.
Star Trek started the myth about "sabot" in "sabotage" referring to shoes. This is just false. "Sabot" refers to the metal clamps used in railroads.
Source
Opinions stated are mine and do not reflect those of the Illuminati
I'll have to start blocking email from .moon
The biggest threat against the U.S. isn't terrorism. It's whoever's got a competent space program.
Why do you think the last two "wars" that the U.S. has been involved in have been such great military successes (if complete diplomatic failures)? It's due to their practice of hyperwar, the ability to have sustained mass bombings from great distances, and this is a direct result of satellite intelligence. If people were smart, they'd see that each launch of the space shuttle is an act of war.
Take away this advantage, and the U.S. has to go to war at the same level as everybody else. If the Chinese decided that they didn't like the GPS system and (reasonably) thought it put their country at risk, wouldn't it make sense to use their space program to take it out? I daresay we'll be seeing orbital fighters in our lifetime, perhaps in the next ten years.
Seriously. And yes, human rights do matter. They want to go to the moon, great, but they should have other priorities.
there's no place like ~
The only reason we went to the moon in the first place was to compete with the Russians. Now with another competetor in the wings we may see a boost in our our space program.
There's no technical reason they can't. But only an idiot would mine the moon, since there's nothing there that isn't available cheaper on Earth. If the entire space industry can't find a way to profit from going to the moon, neither can China.
But there's only one way to learn that lesson.
As always, the essential question is why. Prestige only gets you so far. Notice that after mankind proved it could be done in 1969 - 1974, we just plain stopped. Know why? We'd gotten all the scientific information we could reasonably have gotten, it was very dangerous, and very expensive. So now we have to ask why and look for deeper responses, an actual purpose to flying out into space. What possibly could be done on the moon that couldn't be done right here, or perhaps on our money pit noisemaker, the Int'l Space Station (ISS)? I strongly suspect the answer is nothing.
Speaking in a larger, world exploration of space sense, couldn't we get more scientific gain by sending out many, many more satellites equipped with finely engineered sensors? I know our human nature makes us feel that if there's not a biped there we haven't really experienced it, but putting a base on the moon, landing on mars, doing deep space exploration, etc - these are all things that become exponentially cheaper if we decide to send machines instead of people to do it.
Before we went to the moon it held an air of mystery for us. But when we got there we found it was just a big dusty gray rock, and so our fascination was with ourselves with succeeding in getting there, not with the destination itself. People who dream of moonbases fail to realize that it'll never happen. It's like going to a far-away island - anything you need you have to bring with you. Food, housing, any and all equipment to do anything - it's ridiculous and there's no reason for it. We'll also never practice interstellar travel, or likely even get beyond Mars & Venus as humans, mainly due to the gamma ray problem. And will it be worth it? For science, yes. But not for any practical purpose.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
yea, theres a lot of them alright and they pretty much own at world athetics and sports (maybe they should be split into provinces for these things - of say 250 million each (to make it fair for the USA)) any how, one thing they cant do is play football. oh yea. (Football as in the game with the spherical ball. not American football.)
0xC3
well, it would probably help if they tried a manned mission first huh?
kind of ludicrous given the expenses involved. good way to bankrupt themselves if they were serious about commercial exploitation.
but i agree, this is posturing for something more military. there is no practical reason for trying to mine ore readily available here from the moon.
Sounds like the 'good ole days' when the communists and capitalists were competing in space instead of wasting their tax revenues on welfare and corruption.
Is this what it will take for the "West" to quit navel-gazing and start exploring again? Will the democracies now have a reason to shoot for the moon again? Or will the Reds get there first?
-AD
The space-based Hubble doesn't have the resolution to see such things, and even if it did, the very properties of light are such that you can't see something that small from that far out (the wavelength of the light itself limits resolution). However, there's a reflector on the Moon designed to bounce a laser back, which was put there by Apollo astronauts (I don't remember which mission) to measure distances to the Moon. It has since been used many times, and every time someone shoots a laser at the right coordinates, they get the beam back, which is impossible to do with regular Moon surface. It's odd that the conspiracy theorists are so quiet about this device.
Virg
Fucking idiotic.
first off, it's sad that this article turned into a commie bashing thread.. but i guess it was expected seeing as how most /. readers are from the united states...
my question is this.. how does one acquire new territory? i mean what makes the territory YOU claim to be yours RECOGNIZED by others as belonging to you? sure someone can send a group of guys to the moon, stick a flag in the ground and claim that the moon is theirs... but what about, say, small islands that are in international waters.. i can take a boat out there and stick a flag down in the sand, does that make the land mine?
i think the question is a bit deeper than that. see an individual cannot really OWN land that is not already owned by a larger nation. in other words, if a small island exists within a particular nation's waters, and if that land is not recorded as belonging to anyone, i'm sure that a person can purchase/claim that land from his parent nation.
however, an individual has no representation amongst the nations of the world. he/she cannot defend his new territory, he/she cannot compete with entire nations that might try taking that territory by force. he/she has no trade representation, financially in this world they are a nobody and therefor their 'territory' is not legitimate and will not be recognized.
so lets assume an individual manages to defend his territory by some means.. say a square kilometer of the moon. an individual could send up a robot that is fully autonomous and could pick up small lunar rocks and hurl them at 500+ m/s at anything that it perceives to be a threat to its territory. against a lightly armored lunar rover or explorer in a space suit, this would be a killing blow.
so now you have a person, here on earth, controlling a piece of land on the moon. he/she invested in this land and took measures to defend it. to whom does that square kilometer of land belong to? where does one draw the line? one could send an entire 'army' of simple mecha up there and defend the entire lunar surface. provided that this individual could provide for their own safety on earth until they were able to build a base up there and move to the moon, who could honestly say that the moon isn't under the control of this individual....
and who here can state that possession of land involves anything more than control...
-fc
. echo -e \\04 >
"If your country is being overrun by foreigners that took over and basically sealed off whole parts of your cities, who caused that it is no longer safe to take a walk in the park your mother used to walk with you all the time, who are refusing to adapt and ask you, the host, to change to suit their lifestyles ...
You get the USA.
I heard that China gets her ass kicked by Joey Butafucco (sp) in celebrity boxing. :-0
And I don't mean in money, since their economics are somewhat different (Communists steal what they can't afford in hard currency). How many Chinese citizens will die because of the rush to establish their moon base. The ChiCom government cares very little for human life, and for that matter aren't even devoted to communism; The moonbase is to be both a source of national pride and an economic revenue stream. As someone else pointed out, this project is also for the sake of their aerospace and defense industries: The moons crust is believed to be rich in tritium, which is a key componant of fusion reactors and a tremendous yeild booster for thermonuclear weapons (the H-Bomb).
It's sad, but we are better motivated by competition than cooperation. We don't seem to be willing to assume the risks to take the big steps unless we are pushed into it. Perhaps competition with China will fuel some more ballsy moves by the US and other western countries. Without some sort of "threat" we become focused on mundane day to day issues and seldom strive to be our best.
We have a low intensity cold war going on between China and the West. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Each side is intent on demonstrating that their system produces superior results. China clearly has their sights set on becoming a world super power. The US is intent on maintaining its position as a super power and technology leader. The harder the Chinese push, the better we have to be.
So I say, China, bring it on. Push as hard as you can. I know from my school days that China certainly has enough well educated and brainy people to pull it off. If it becomes a matter of prestige and national pride, then the US will focus on staying ahead. It's human nature, we need to strive against some type of adversity in order to be our best.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Ever seen the movie 'Capricorn One"?
:)
You don't have to land on the moon, just fake it
Just like all those U.S. moon landing pictures that lack shadows/silhouettes, and the ones that are OBVIOUSLY fake becuse the images hide the registration marks eteched on the camera lens.
Your information is out of date. If you're going to be pedantic and correct people on stupid trivia, at least get it right. The British government officially adopted the US meanings for million and billion in 1974. That's right, 1974, almost 30 years ago. Now, I'm willing to cut you some slack if you're at least 50 years old, as it might then be understandable for you to have such ludicrously dated info. However, as I suspect you are not 50, I think you should stop passing on random factoids with no actual verification of their correctness.
Quick use of google reveals many US based web sites that vector this dated information. All of the UK based web sites I can find that use "million" and "billion" use them with the standard meanings of 10^6 and 10^9 respectively. See http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001246/visnum.html for example.
Arrr, it be the infamous pirate, No Beard Pete!
Maybe they'll find some alien ore that allows them to build armored hover vehicles and walkers. Then we can fight the chinese for posession of the moon and its valuable materials, on the dark side where no one can see...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
We went there in the 60s, fueled by nationalism coupled with a desire to 'beat the russkies.' The US did it with aplomb, showed the world that it can be done, and.....nothing. We have reverted to a 'just getting by' mentality with respect to space, focusing (albeit smartly due to cost) on relatively cheap, unmanned probes. But what have we left behind when we dissociate human spaceflight from space exploration? We've left behind arguably the most important reason of all: the wonder and awe of exploring what is the last frontier. It is the dreamers, those whose idealistic views buttress the human need to expand and explore, who will put man back on the moon. Our brief history in space was steamrolled into the public mentality almost forty years ago and has since waned due to lack of concrete proposals and follow-throughs by the often short-sighted powers-that-be. Surely it's expensive as all hell to put a human in space. But it'll be more expensive, we'll pay the ultimate price, if we 'stay in the cradle' here on earth and die off when (catastrophe 'x') happens, and we're all on the same ball of rock, instead of spread out into the solar system, beginning with the moon. We've led the way only to stand aside, and that is wrong.
Only a university student could belive this crap you are saying.
Chinese Communism, 65 MILLION dead by deliberate government action so far and counting. Plus rampant AIDS infection in the Chinese boondocks while The Party screws around with rockets.
And why rockets, incidentally? Could it be ICBM research? Yep, could be. Y'think rockets are going to improve the lot of the average Chinese guy? No way in hell.
Switching to outright Feudalism would be 100% better than the nightmare they presently have. And don't bullshit me, I know lots of people born and raised there, they all say the same thing I just said.
Now pull your head out of your ass and start paying attention.
All I know is in Civ, when the race to get to Aplha Centauri starts, when the techs are more or less equal, the civilazation with the most number if citys usually wins...
If what was said in that Moon documentary that we did not go to the moon and in fact there is such a strong field of radiation that we could not pass through it then the Chinese are in for a big surprise!
There is a lot of truth in the replies, and a lot of stupidity as well.
:O)
The unescapable fact is that every Chinese attempt at reliable (non-exploding) space adventure failed, until they started spying, *buying*, and stealing. You can find this out by reading on China's space program.
That's not to say that they're stupid, it may be the economic or social structure or something else for all I know. Chinese prove they're no more stupid then the average human.
One thing I see a lot of in the replies here are the assumptions that in my comment I meant that Chinese were stupid. However, we all know that assuming is stupid, reading between the lines is prone to false results.
If I said it, I meant it, if I did not say it, then I didn't mean it. Period.
get it?
I personally think the Chinese will succeed.
Why? Because they are not truly communist. China is successful in business, which is capitalism. They speak highly of communist ideals, they enforce them socially, but not in business. The outside world (everyone else) is willing to buy from and sell to China, and China is willing to buy and sell in return. There are rich and poor in China. There are weathly people, people who require capitalism to sustain their wealth. This isn't the wonderful equality we all hear about communism is it? The rich living off the backs of the poor?
China will succeed, and well they should, they've got a lot invested in becoming the biggest and best nation on earth. Right now they are not the best nation *IMHO* mainly because of their lack of respect for human life and freedom.
Others may consider those two things to be unimportant, but I experience life and freedom everyday and I think I can't live or be free without them..
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
One small step for man, one giant leap for a chinese guy!
How did we get to the moon in the 60's and 70's? Because we wanted to beat the Soviets there. If the real exploration of our neighborhood is to happen, we need something like this - how many people in the U.S. want to see a permanent Chinese moonbase without our own to watch over them? Will it be expensive? Of course. Is it worthwhile? Of course. There has just been no impetus at the government level, and no where near the funds at the private level. With a "threat" like this, maybe government and industry can work together to make it happen.
That's the question we should ask ourselves. Let's assume for the moment that they know what we think we know, there is nothing on the moon to mine. So it wouldn't be for mining. I can think of a few reasons. 1. Tourism. They could make a bundle off of setting a tourist resort on the moon. 2. We're not stupid. You know they are going to put nukes and other nasty weapons on the moon. This would be a perfect base to launch attacks at our planet. 3. We would have to get around the Chinese to send satellites, Mars exploration missions, etc. Heck they might be able to shoot down anything we send up.
They won't make it if they continue to use Russian gear. They never could get it to work.
Putting some one in orbit is hard, going to the moon is extreme in comparison. All they've done is shoot up a couple of old russian modules.
But it might be better to keep the Saturn V plans of the net.
....remove all taxes on any corporation whose primary purpose is to get to the mooon
As long as the companies leave Earth and go to the Moon, would it mean we have a chance to get rid of Enron and Microsoft once and for all?
The Chinese system government now resembles fascism much more than communism. That is, it relies on appeals to nationalism and its superiority to legitimize itself. Sound familiar with anything else? They have openly stated that their ambitious space program is an attempt in this aim.
The reaction here is, "What a cool idea. They should go for it!" without, without thinking for a second what the consequences of that action would be.
was: Re:Sad...
When the title is "China to build Moon base", 90% of the discussions are related to 'communists', 'stealing technology', 'human rights'. I presume, most of the people have never been to China.
Like the People's Republic of China, I've never been to Nazi Germany. Does that mean my anti-Nazi opinions are baseless, and I shouldn't believe all the bad things I've heard?
I think there are a lot of implications:
... is it democracy if I may VOTE but not choose my seat in a public transfer freely(Martin Luther King)?
... we showed the world they can not treat us like nothing.
... having ambitions, thinking the wrong people are ruling. Those are good placed in a space program.
... peopler would vote for them.
... no idea here :-) But establishing space stations around L5 and L4 is far easyer from the moon. And likely an opportunity for china to go its own way. Surely China will extend its Moon program to a Mars program. Of course colonizing of Mars makes not that much sence currently ... but imagine: China the only nation with a space program seeking manned exploration of our solar system.
:-)
...
Posters write about lack of democracy in China, actually.
What is about lack of democracy in the US during the time they raced to the moon? (Mac Carthy, Martin Luther King)
You are using the word "democracy" as a silver bullet
Is it democracy if I may vote but have simply no chance to gain a seat if I like to run for a public office(because I'm black, yellow or hispanic, TODAY!!)?
Back to topic:
The USA and USSR moon programs where basicly run for three reason:
a) Distract public awareness from more urgent problems
b) Stimulate the economy and science (interwoven with the industrial and military complex) helping solving the problems in a)
c) prestige and national feelings to overcome the bad feelings caused by the fundamental problems
in a)
Yes, I have the opinion this is true for both nations. Not to say that the USSR was not even a "nation" as it was forged by Stalin and consists of dozens of nations.
But NOW, they felt like a nation as they where close to beat the USA.
Finaly AFTER 50 years of cold war, the USSR no longer exists. The countries of the USSR mostly have "a kind of" democracy now.
Now after the dark ages the people have a feeling of: we are somthing
The democracy is still weak. Corruption is everywhere. Organized crime is struggeling the government and the people.
Now look at China.
No democracy, at least no free public democracy. Right.
Corruption, yes. Mainly in top ranks of the political leading classes, but also in the economy.
Organized crime, yes.
How is China coping with it? No idea realy. Corruption and getting cought may cause, often it does, death punishment. Nearly all crimes falling under organized crime are punished with death punishment.
What are the prime problems in China? Why CAN'T they shift to democracy?
75% of the population is rural population.
25% is urban. Population growth is still not under control. (China has a law that a family may only get one child)
Poverty, education and even fooding is not under full control. But it gets better and is far better than 30 years ago.
China is not very high industrialized. As far as it is, it uses outdated (dirty)technologies.
So what does China try to accomplish? I think they want to urbanize the society to generate jobs and wealth in a service economy(there was an interview with a high representative in the german magazine "Der Spiegel" about that). To get the education, living room and nutrifician problems under control they need to control the growth of the population (currently about 1.1 billion people).
Also they need to provide energy(if possible not to dirty) health services and industrial growth.
China consists of a lot of smaler "countires" where the people speak different languages. In fact they do not like each other very well.
A undertaking like a space program has the effects it had for the USA and the USSR:
o Founding and supporting a feeling to belong to one nation.
o Stimulating spin off effects all over the economy.
o The possibility to trade natural resources for western high tech. AND: furhter more the ability to establish or drive their own high tech industries.
o Establishing a WANTING for education in the rural population
o Establish a consumer industrie while poverty is decreasing
Belive it or not: Chinas politicians think far more deeper and wider for the benefit of their nation than most western politician ever did.
I'm pretty sure that they clearly have the vision to go for Mars. They have a motivation we all have not: seeking space to live. And they need a ventil for all people making trouble
When China is ready they will get democracy. But it is not our right to point at them and demand democracy now. If YOU wan't them to get democracy early then help them to achive it.
(Where have you been when the USA(CIA) destroyed democracies in south america, just because the party the people voted for was not liked by General Food? See the result? Argentinia is now collapsing. Peru still can't get on its feet, fighting Maoistic terrorists. Chile not established well.)
If China was democratic tomorrow, what would happen?
About 20 new countries would pop up forming their own state. Not bad in it self.
In 10 of those countries local "war lords" would have the democratic base to rule. Because they are rich, they own land, they own a factory
The land would fall back imediatly into a 19th century precapitalistic order. The people who OWN would rule. Becasue they tell all ohers what to vote.
What kind of corruption you then had likely?
Thats not democracy, even if the people VOTE for those who OWN. What do you tink why communism ruled USSR? Why did the revolution in the USSR yield communism while it yielded democracy in france? In russia 90% of the population where SLAVES. The remaining 10% where lords. Just a very thin group of people OWNED everything. In China it was similar. When the slaves revolted they found it is wrong that 10% of the people OWN 100% of everything. The revolution was not about democracy or monarchy. It was about land and food and having a job where you had not to fear to get killed by a machine.
Back to actual China:
Putting it to a vote or not, the one child family idea would be dead. Population would EXPLODE.
After population growth starts to get out of control you can forget: feeding the masses.
After you have not enough food or can't distribute it, you can forget: energy, industrialization, education, health service, housing. Just choose which one will break in which area first.
I belive that in 10 to 20 years China will be on the right track and likely will be widely democratic.
A space program will release the energy for that and yield the synergy needed to transform the society.
Technical a race for the moon might be right or wrong
Regardless where you go, you will find them there allready sitting with a base, funny
Who will send the first interstellar probe out of our solar system? (Yes Pioneer is allready on its way) I mean a BIG one, probably with speed of 0.2c (read NASA pages how to make that with current tech).
How might that stimulate world wide the feeling of: we are one humanity? And who will lead such a program? Likely China.
Just some thoughts
angel'o'spphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
There are a couple of problems with mining the moon. As humans remove material from the moon and take it to the Earth. The gravity of the moon diminishes and the gravity of Earth increases. This could cause lots of problems. Two of which are:
1. With less mass the moons orbit would decrease until it collided with Earth.
2. With less gravity the moon would not have as strong of an effect on the tidal patterns of Earth.
If you all don't see the problems with these then something is seriously wrong with you.
I hope that the Chinese plan on replacing the mass that they remove from the moon.
...of Chinese people standing on top of one another.
Saves cost. Reduces (horizontal) crowding. Provides everyone with a job.
Sound like typical Communist Chinese planning.
this guy, but he will sell you a chunk of it. $15.99 for an acre.
Fly Fish? Participate in our forum
these jokers?
Fly Fish? Participate in our forum
It's not often that I leave notes explaining my moderation decisions, but I figured this was a special case. This post, which you posted at +2, was neither useful, funny, or well thought out.
so i modded it "overrated".
if you tried paying attention to the point at hand instead of arguing semantics, perhaps you wouldn't be forced into paying the retard tax.
-c
Well, orientalism aside, he's right. Heck, the U.S. also could muster a million people willing to die for a chance at the Moon. It's just looking like the PRC is going to be more likely to give their million people a chance to try.
Virg
Don't forget what got America on the moon. Sputnik. The article mentions it is a point of national pride. It was national pride that started the US space program to "catch up and surpass" Russian advances in space. And what was the benefit to American's that congress argues when marginalizing NASA? Huge funding into materials and technology development that resulted in many consumer and military applications we use today.
;-)
But now the argument is America cannot afford to be in space. Look at the massive scaling back of Alpha. It serves no purpose... to the political machine driven by corporate lobby. And this is why China will succeed.
Even though China's communist ideals may be for show, China is an effective oligarchy. No battling for mindshare for that next election "addressing short term problems".
I hope Zhong Guo Jen succeed in this vision. It is the Only way Americans will make it to Mars.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
They want it back as a province of Big China. Impressing it as much as possible and eventually if Tawain loose its support coerce it backs in the miainland. As for destroying US, or western country, as far as their ideology goes we will do it alone by corruption and laisser-faire.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Of course the US Moon landings were real!
What other motivation could the RED CHINEESE have to go to the moon other than to eradicate all evidence of the United States great achievement?
You know how those dirty commie bastards are. They take credit for every achievement and invention since the dawn of time.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
would surely be Puerto Rico, but the US won't grant it statehood because that would mess up the flag - where would they put the extra star?
No, not really. We'd love to see the Japanese go to the moon because we trust them and have a great tradition of sharing technology with them.
China, on the other hand, would like to watch us die in a cloud of radioactive fallout.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
...WHERE'S MY CAR???
There really aren't many things we (human beings) can't do in regards to putting people in orbit, on the moon, or even other places in the solar system. The question is simply one of how much time and effort we are willing to invest in the project. A don't know how self-sufficient the Chinese moon base would be, but the US has had the technology to put people on the moon for decades, and to keep people in space for months on end. A long-term moonbase would be a hassle in terms of cost, maintenance, and operation, but there's not much new here technologically.
I'm the stranger...posting to
All the poster speaks here of cost, money, no market. But think of it : it will cost the chinese country a lot of money to go and successfully install a mining operation on the moon. But once they are done they could [try to] manufacture a lot of things better in the nearby vacuum better than on earth . They could [try to] also make alliage with better homogenyity. They could [try to] have research go in some way impossible on earth due to the combination of vaccum and low gravity. And they could very well pull it off and make new goods or industry giving them a giant head starts. You could [try to] use the mining /manufacturing to launch satellite / space exploration/ and in a very long term terraforming of the other planet : launching would cost "less" thrust to vehicules.
But all that is on the long term. All the people speaking of market, money, cost are thinking on the very short term. In reality the chinese may very well have a better long term insight , openning to them and only them the future in space
Now they could very well fail. but who do not attempt have already failed.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
hahaha, that's a good one. I don't see Americans (of which I am one, I do need to bash myself here) dumping their SUVs for Minis. Nobody here will give a shit about foreign oil until gasoline is over $3/gallon.
sulli
RTFJ.
minion: mr. president, mr. president!
gwb: yeah?
minion: (trying to catch his breath) mr. president, the chinese -
gwb: yeah?
minion: mr. president, the chinese - they painted the moon RED!!!
gwb: oh. well, take white paint and write "coca cola" on it.
Free as in mason.
I would think the USA would want to get to the moon ASAP. Who is going to regulate the Chinese mining projects? Who's going to keep the Chinese from exploiting unfettered access to all the moon's resources or from cracking the moon in half or some such nonsense though extreme overmining? Who's going to make sure they're not building weapons of mass destruction up there?
If the Chinese are serious about this we can be sure the USA will be first in line for the above jobs.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
so if china pulls this off, and does indeed start mining the moon, how long do we have until the orbit is reduced and the moon crashes into earth?
I seem to recall reading an essay about this a while back. Basically, the problem is it takes time even to adapt to moving in space and getting over space-sickness - puke globules are NOT sexy. Furthermore, you'd have to use some sort of straps to hold you on to your mate - "equal and opposite reactions" would make staying in proximity to each other a challenge.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Remember back in 1999 when the moon flew out of orbit due to a nuclear explosion from the reactors that powered Moon Base Alpha. :-)
I'm from China, and I can tell you that the Apollo moon landings are widely accepted as fact throughout China (in the government, the scientific community, the popular media, etc). This is not a recent development. Right after the moon landing of Armstrong and Aldrin, people in China celebrated it as a great achievement for mankind despite the fact that at the time China was in midst of the worst throes of the Cultural Revolution. Similarly, the U.S. space shuttle, the Hubble telescope, the Russian Mir space station, the new international space station are all generally viewed in China as exciting developments in mankind's exploration of space. I find it amazing that in this era of telecommunication advances that so many people in the U.S. have such distorted conceptions of other peoples and nations that ridiculous assertions as those of your roommate's are easily taken as fact.
a giant "laser" and hold the world hostage for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!
2010 comes around ..I look out my window with my telescope .. and all I see on the moon is a bunch of naked Chinese guys dancing to the yatta song.
[alk]
It's about time somebody gave the Americans some competition in space exploration. The next big thing will be a manned mission to Mars though. A Moon colony - however technically difficult that is won't grab the public as much as a misson to Mars (without the robots this time). Lets home they work out whether they're working in inches or centimetres this time!
Video Game cheats, hints a
Now seen as a "Super Power", the USA achieved a state where things are too good (supposedly)to risk changing too much. It doesn't seem worth it
to take those extra risks and keep advancing in technology. Many empires in the past fell because of that, and so the USA will fall as well.
It's like how countries with natural resources don't really go out of their way to gain technological knowledge.
AC
We won't see a brain drain towards China, simply because they won't accept outsiders.
It would probably help to be Chinese, if you want to work on their space program. Unfortunately, ``Chinese'' is a race-based notion: to be Chinese, your parents must be Chinese, and so on ad infinitum.
In the US, we have the notion of naturalization. I'm not sure that the idea translates easily to Chinese. I know a bit about Taiwan. They DO have the notion of allowing foreigners to live and work there indefinitely. I hear that they even allow some few who are not Chinese to become citizens. I assume that they are allowed to vote, though I'm not sure about that. But they are still not ``Chinese''.
Chinese society is not xenophobic the way Japanese society is, but it's xenophobic the way small-town Vermont is: if folks can remember when your ancestors arrived, you're New, as in: `` He's New here, his folks moved from the next town over after the Revolution.''. If your ancestors weren't Han Chinese, you may be socially acceptable, but you'll never be Chinese. Not hated, but different.
Add all this to the fact that the Chinese government is an evil dictatorship which is trying hard to isolate the Mainland people from the outside, and which finds it expedient to whip up race hatred periodically, all to maintain their power, and it seems unlikely that the rest of the world has to worry about brain drain. Taiwan might loose a few rocket scientists, and the US might see a few Chinese scholars lured away, but most of the world's rocket scientists won't be courted, or welcomed. Now if this were a Taiwanese program, the situation might be different. They at least don't have any incentive to isolate their populace.
I should probably add that Taiwan might be one of the safest and pleasantest parts of the non-English-speaking world for an American to travel. Despite the fact that you aren't Chinese (and the fact can't be hidden), you're not unwelcome. If you get outside Taipei, occidentals are a real novelty, and folks will be very interested in you. Unfortunately, none of them speak English, but Chinese is relatively easy to read and write. All Chinese are literate, despite the added difficulty of their ideograms relative to our phonetic system. That shows up the essential inadequacy of our school system, but that's another rant.
Yes, the photos are slightly suspicious, but with a bit of working knowledge of photography as well as physics, plus a bit of actual research, even the most suspect photos are quite easily explained. Most "Moon Hoax" theories are rehashes of what someone else has said. The accusers of the hoaxes, however, are either ignorant of some common schoolbook facts, or are ignoring them in favor of the attention a good Conspiracy Theory can bring them.
However, there are a number of things to consider. With the help of Robert A. Braeunig's insights, I will address them now.
I hope this clears up a few things. If anyone has any more ideas on how it was impossible for us to have gone to the moon, I'll be happy to address them. I limited this post to photographs so as to stay within the thread.
The Libra
"And I lift my glass to the awful truth / which you can't reveal to the years of youth / except to say it isn't worth a damn..." -Leonard Cohen, Closing Time
Why are we so obsessed with going to Mars when we haven't even done much with the Moon yet? I say we're trying to walk without crawling first.
I've been saying all this time that we need to fully explore (and exploit!) the Moon before we set our sights any further.
At the very least we will gain more knowledge about space travel and other-world living through trial and error when dealing with the Moon. This will better prepare us for deep space travel and colonizing other planets.
I sure hope this move by China does infact spur another space race.
*click here for free viagra OR an unaccredited diploma (p.s. haha)*
It might be a whole lot easier to accomplish getting somebody to the moon to live if you didn't have to worry about getting them back. I'm willing to believe that the Chinese would send people up to the moon with supplies to attempt to set up a moon base, and keep sending them more stuff, but not worry about the return trip, at least not right away. Send 3 guys up with O2, food, water, and equipment to process lunar dust and rock to extract O2. Use the weight budget that would have been used for a return trip for more survival supplies. Send up resupply rockets. Once the people on the moon have had a chance to experiment on the lunar dust and get a better idea of what would work (perhaps dying in the process), send more people with better equipment. Keep sending people. Don't worry - those who died on the moon did so in the firm belief that they were paving the way for those who followed. They'd be heros on the ground.
The dynamics are way different if you are willing to accept casulties.
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Only if this is what they're talking about doing.
blog |
China is not ruled by a dictator, it's ruled by a group of people and has a parlement, just like we do.
Furthermore, China is not communist, half of their economy these days is capitalistic.
while the moon would be a worthy achivment the ultimate achivment would be to set up a station on mars.
Half of their economy is capitalistic now. It surpises me how many people still aren't aware of that.
All YOUR M00NBASE ARE BElONG TO US.
So one of the things I find most fascinating in this thread is the number of people who think it's clever to post as if there is no difference between the US and China and say things like `it's just as good for humanity if they do it as if the US does it' or `what's the difference between China spending money on their military and the US spending money on theirs?'.
/.'ers think it would be a good thing for these guys to have a monnbase? C'mon, let's get real.
This type of attempt to draw a moral equivalency between the US and China is very popular on college campuses these days, but that doesn't make it any less vapid.
Let's look at some facts: The US, whatever faults we may or may not find with it, is the nation on earth that provides the most liberty, the best living conditions, and the most opportunity to all of its citizens. (And I do mean all of its citizens -- no one in the US is denied opportunity because of their race, religion, or so forth in the year 2002, and those claiming otherwise almost all have a political agenda behind their statements.
In comparison, China is a totalitarian dictatorship which tortures and kills huge numbers of its citizens, provides no political power to any but the party elite, and is aggressively expansionist in its relations with all of its neighbors.
China has shown full willingness to use any and all capabilities it has to threaten and intimidate its neighbors, and has dealt with the rest of the world in a manner which can only be described as schizophrenic and dishonest.
And
...We can rest assured that Toplan will have absolutely no involvement whatsoever with the building of this base. They are a Japanese company, right? Right!?
Why bother.
China is not ruled by a dictator, it's ruled by a group of people and has a parlement, just like we do.
How very odd. China is ruled by a `parliament' which is neither elected nor accountable to the population, and all actual control is vested in the hands of a small central committee, which has absolute power.
How is this doing things `just like we do'?
Do you think it's the word `parliament' which makes a country democratic? Or is it having a government like that of the US, which is limited by law, and accountable to the general population.
Sure, as long as your metric is `put people into orbit' as opposed to, say, `not starve half your population', `not throw people in labor camps for practicing the wrong religion or having the wrong political views', or `have a government which is accountable to the people instead of vice versa.'
There's space and then there's spies in space.
It could have been carried there by a probe. I really would like China to revisit the site. If for nothing else than historical value.
Just think about it: it's been over 40 years now. The USA went there and then left. I find that, if not odd, very annoying. There could have been an international Moon base by now. But no. Money is better wasted on cheap-skate piece of shit which benefits actually no-one, as the people who orchestrate it are always too busy to enjoy it.
Frank Zappa already has a moon unit... thus far, I have not seen the benefit to humanity.
can I smoke pot in this station?
I mean it's impossible for one nation to have it's laws over anothers - no one can own the moon or any planet.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I got some bad news, and some good news.
Bad news is, the Chinese have gone to the moon.
Good news is, all of them.
1. Take 1bn Chinamen
2. Make a human pyramid
3. Pass a shovel to the guy on top and start a bucket brigade.
EASY!
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
"A Moon colony - however technically difficult that is won't grab the public as much as a misson to Mars"
It will when people are offered pricey tourist junkets to the Sea of Tranquility.
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
What's the other half? Creamy nougat?
The U.S.S.R., prior to it's implosion, wasn't ruled by a dictator either.
But if you're thinking that experimentation with capitalism in Hong Kong and a few other isolated areas constitutes something other than communism, you are sadly mistaken. China still exhibits all of the characteristics of a repressive and dangerously agressive communist nation, led by an elite few.
The fact that the parent was modded as (-1, Flamebait) just further illustrates the one of the problems with the /. moderation system.
The poster took issue with the statement "if 1.5 billion people say they say they are gonna do it, they will", and in a short and civil post argued why 1.5 billion people aren't saying jack.
Or, in other words:
A dozen people are saying that they're going to do it, the few thousand that report to them aren't going to disagree, and the hundreds of millions who are subject to the laws and restrictions enforced and enacted by those thousands dare not resist.
If you disagree, reply. Squashing ACs who are trying to add to the discussion merely illustrates your stupidity.
Tieniman square was the result of nationwide protests that included less than one tenth of one percent of the population of China, total.
The equivalent number of people in the U.S., given its current population, is under 150,000 people.
So, when Bozeman, Montanna wants to change the U.S. over to a Monarchy, I suppose we should all pledge our allegiance to the new king?
Having heard things about Chinese military/fighter aircraft, I can only imagine a conversation between two future astronauts:
'No, please, you go first.'
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
It's not like the US has a real space program, since the DC-X project was cancelled.
How old are those space shuttles these days?
There's a reason that more and more US airlines are buying their aircraft from other countries.
Are you aware that there are no US companies making civial helicopters any more? A friend of mine is the major owner of "Life Flight", and he has to buy all his helicopters from the French.
FWIW: I believe the last US company that manufactured the machines to manufacture chip masks was sold to the Japanese in the early 1990's.
The US has an incredibly high opinion of itself when it comes to technology, about the same way a Jerry Springer viewer living in a trailer evaluates his own prowess as a lover...
...instead of just a manned Low Earth Orbit program.
China still has zero minutes of manned space flight time. Don't forget they also said they'd have people in orbit before the year 2000 - they still haven't gotten there yet. Let them get some manned space flight time before even considering claims they're going to the Moon. You can't skip any technological hurdles on the way there. Otherwise some is certain to fail and/or you'll lose some people in the process. The Soviets tried to leapfrog some technological steps on the way to the Moon and it cost them when the N1 project failed because of it.
I'm not saying they can't eventually do this. China has a viable satellite launch industry. But their propaganda machine has many times gotten ahead of themselves. I simply cannot believe schedules for putting a person on the Moon from any country or company that has not yet launched a person into orbit or at least on a suborbital space flight. First things first, please...
(Some minor credentials to mention... just a week and a half ago some friends and I got back video of the curvature of the Earth from a balloon we launched to 90,000'. We tracked and recovered the flight package, including 60 experiments from some California grade schools on board, 20 minutes after it landed in the northern Nevada Desert. This was mainly to test electronics for an upcoming rocket launch from one of these balloons to attempt the first amateur rocket launch to space confirmed by electronic telemetry. We're not making any claims for a date to land on the Moon yet! :-)
When last I was in Beijing, I made a living teaching English. I was told that there are 400 million people in China studying English. From a practical standpoint, it seems that the decision has been made.
Are Belong To Us.
is talking with several countries about purchasing the technology. Space Propulsion Engine for Flying Saucer - New Physics Rumor in Silicon Valley - Inventor of Rewrtiable 3D volume holographic optical storage shopping his concept for Space Propulsion Engine to US and other countries. for further look at biography background goto www.colossalstorage.net he is working in top secret and will not patent, publish or share concepts as he says no physicist or scientist he has ever studied or researched had this approach and knows his concept will work to give near light speed travel thru Galaxy. he says it is a mankind first concept !!
Space Propulsion Engine for Flying Saucer - New Physics Rumor in Silicon Valley - Inventor of 3D rewritable volume holographic optical storage shopping his concept for Space Propulsion Engine to US and other countries. for further look at biographic background goto www.colossalstorage.net he is working in top secret and will not patent, publish or share concepts as he says no physicist or scientist he has ever studied or researched had this approach and knows his concept will work to give near light speed travel thru Galaxy. he says it is a mankind first concept !!
Figure about 5-10 years lag for them to get a *live* crew to the lunar surface. Finally, some decent lunar take-out food!
I think this is really a ploy to have their craft bumped by the international space station so they can wag their finger at an increasingly disinterested running dog capitalist conspiracy to "keep China down." China seems to be perfectly capable of keeping China down all by itself. 8-)
Film at 11.
It seems to me that the Moonies have already mined the surface of the moon for the good of humanity.
Actually, a Hohmann transfer orbit can get you to Mars in about 250 days. You can get there faster (say, 180 days) given enough propellant. To get back to Earth using another Hohmann transfer, you have to wait for the next Earth-Mars conjunction, which means you have to hang around Mars for about two years (not such a bad thing, really, if you're going to make the trip). Total mission time is over three years, but you can stay on the surface while you wait for the next launch window.
This puts the crew in a decent gravity field and provides radiation shielding (dig in, or pile dirt on top of the lander), so you can avoid some of the more pesky issues with long-term missions (bone loss, solar flares, etc.). Better have a good life-support system...still, the crew is at risk while in transit (those flares again), but if we wait for this to be a zero-risk proposition, well, we'll never send anyone...
Sure thing, Buckwheat.
They have the entire country firewalled from the Internet, just like we do.
They execute people to get spare organs for government officials and then send the bill for the execution to the next of kin, just like we do.
What the hell have you been smoking?
Do you think it's the word `parliament' which makes a country democratic?
He probably thinks Haiti under Duvalier the First was "democratic", too. After all, Papa Doc styled himself "President for Life" and a President is a President, right?
Looking from outside the USA, I've got fewer problems with Clinton getting blow-jobs than with Bush Jr treating US foreign policy as a game of cowboys and indians...
If the US hadn't spent the last thirty years making itself the most hated nation in the Arab world nuts like Bin Laden wouldn't have gotten the support they needed. Hint: nowhere in Europe or Asia has been the target of Bin Laden.
But we gotta keep Israel happy, eh, as it's the only other nation with such a thoroughly obnoxious and heavy-handed foreign policy.
The USA's looking more like a nation of hillbillies every day... "Shucks maw, them's foreigners way over yonder. Gimme the blunderbuss an' I'll fill 'em full of lead; yeehaa!!!!"
Didn't the teletype in the intro print out "1980"? (or perhaps it was the intro lines that said that).
If China does it, we'll have to do it too, right now our space program is lacking and a good push by the "Reds" into space again will get us back into orbit faster than you can say "Star Wars Defense Initiative".
The US needs an "enemy" and China looks to be ready to give us the Yin for our Yang. I dont' man it in a bad way, but we need someone to "push" against who can push back.
And our space program needs a shot in the arm for once, not the balls.
--- www.f-theocean.com
China supports the death penalty for a wide range of crimes and timing of executions is frequently manipulated for political purposes.
The US does the same...
China has massive corruption in all areas of government, causing wide-spread resentment among the masses.
So does the USA... (think campaign contributions...)
In China a small, obscenely wealthy and powerful oligarchy governs the nation at all levels.
It is the same in the USA...
In China the government imposes restrictions on the flow of information via the Internet, using equipment supplied by the US, but do not restrict digital copying.
In the USA, despite the objections of various religious nutters, there are no restrictions on the flow of information on the Internet, but the copying of digital information (mostly using equipment made in China) is heavily restricted by the government.
China thinks it is the centre of the world.
The USA thinks it is the centre of the world.
China deals harshly with areas of its territory which want to secede (ag Tibet).
The USA does the same (American Civil War, anyone?)
But there is one major difference!
China cracks down on religious nut cases while the USA idolises them!!! Hallelulia, brothers!!!
Everyone is always trying to find a reason why..
"Why go to the moon?"
"Why spend money on basic science?"
"What's the purpose of inventing that?"
"What's the purpose of life?
Finding a reason helps in many situations, but there have been many other situations where we have greatly enhanced society without first having a reason to. There are also cases where many will never see the reasons and in others there never will be a reason.
Basic science always seems to be challenged by someone and yet the critics don't seem to have the insight to see they have been "standing on the shoulders of giants" all these years.
If we choose to leave this fundamental research to profit industries then we have given up on a future of a better humankind and traded it for a future of profit. Corporations would own the patents and copyrights to every discovery, and would use their resources to extend their power until the end of time.
If the reason for life was to turn a profit then we would all end up enslaved or in the meat department.
Doing some quick research, the Apollo program cost 64 billion (US) in today's dollars. The ENTIRE spending of the Chinese government is 133 billion. In terms of space technology, the Chinese are roughly where we were in the mid to late 50s. They can luanch unmanned orbiters, and have balistic missles... though they are not capable of reaching beyond California... But there is just no way they can afford to modernize as quickly as we did. The Soviets spent huge sums, and continued their effort for years beyond the US, despite having a space tech lead at the start
I want riches... why don't we threaten to build a moon base too... it happened in the 60s and look what we have now -- tang and velcro and all kinds of cool stuff. We really ought to challenge the Chinese to a space race. That'd be really cool.
A base on the moon could decide who controls the space around Earth.
What can you do on the Moon?
- Build a laser to hit satellites. There's no atmosphere to diffuse the laser beam.
- Build large guns to hit satellites. No fear of satellite recoil when shooting.
- Build any satellite platform on the moon. Fewer worries of space junk reaching there.
- Mine heavy metals.. like plutionium for moon launchable nukes?
Sure it's extremely expensive but if a fortification there was used against us i'm sure we'd build one there too.
hahahahaha. the chinks putting somone on the moon. yah right.
Did anyone else think of john's revelation? Rev 6:12 I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood. I don't know how he saw the color of the moon without light from the sun, but I guess when your just repeating old prophecy it doesn't matter
. . .but you know in your heart that what I say is TRUE.
Not only is anything on the surface sheltered from micrometeors, anything on or in the moon is much less threatened by space debris in general (though this advantage is sort of negated by the inability to dodge the rare bits of debris).
Does anyone know how they plan on paying for it all? From what I have read China is having a very hard time collecting enough taxes to just to keep the goverment running...
If they do set up a base, surely solar power would be the ideal way to create heat, energy and oxygen. Due to the fact that one side is in almost constant sunlight, you could rig a lightweight solar farm for high efficiency. Once you have energy, you have the means for a sustainable settlement... The only problems i can think of are water supplies; you can grow food. However there are large ice deposits on the dark side...
The guy who said that Chinese scientists weren't allowed to talk about moon landings had better show some evidence. All the free speech smackdown in China these days are against things that the gov't feels directly threatened by, not just anything that makes them look bad, and the Apollo landings certainly don't fall under that category.
Maybe we should do it for the same reason we do any other basic science: Because we don't KNOW what it could bring, but it COULD bring a lot. And people are much better at noticing interesting things on the spot than a specifically pre-engineered probe.
See this paper.
They need to learn that kick starting morale in the country will not be boosted with a lunar trip and or moonbase. What they need to do much like what our space administration needs to do is GO TO FREAKING MARS. Space is for exploration of strange new worlds where no man has gone before. Not for correcting our envirnmental problems. IF they are along the way then thats ok.
No, the other half of their economy is communistic.
As for "experimentation with Hong Kong and a few other isolated areas".... it's not an experiment all, it's being applied to the entire nation.
> China still exhibits all of the characteristics of
> a repressive and dangerously agressive communist
> nation, led by an elite few.
OK, name a few characteristics.
I want to be a communists... Maybe I can help shoot nukes at US cities. We will start with LA.
Someone who, when in a repressive society, keeps their head down and their mouth shut.
The upside for being the best at something in China is no very "up", and the downside is tremendous.
Boy we sure did get the best hand in the deal when we got you to sign that. Thank god i have no reason whatsoever to go the the fachist hell hole that is the USA.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Okay, fine, I'll feed the troll.
> It does not require a human to put something on the moon.
It requires a human to put something on the Moon accurately. Remote landings are only accurate on the scale of miles (that is, landing something by remote, you can only be sure it's within a mile or two of where you want it to come down). Since the device is only a few feet across, and discussions elsewhere in this thread prove that you can't see an object of this size from the Earth (or even Earth orbit), how did the people who use it know where to find it with the outgoing laser beam? Without absolutely precise coordinates, you're vanishingly unlikely to be able to find it once it comes down. Having placed it by hand, the astronauts were able to do exacting measurments to geographical features and so it's easy enough to locate.
What I've discovered is that most of the theories that purport that we did not put men on the Moon revolve around gross misunderstandings of how science works. I suppose that shouldn't surprise me, but it does annoy me. This stuff (barring the getting into space part) isn't rocket science. Do your homework, and your arguments will stand up to debunking a whole lot better.
Virg
Must be a GOP stategist to say something that wrongheaded :0)
s on.htm l
Read the "Future of Life"
"We have entered the Century of the Environment, in which the immediate future is usefully conceived as a bottleneck: science and technology, combined with foresight and moral courage, must see us through it and out"
http://www.sciam.com/2002/0202issue/0202wil
Where will this moral courage come from? Certainly not from U.S. politicians.
Looks like it was a mistake in the reporting.
Here's it cleared up:
China denies manned Moon mission plans
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
China
In today's news:2 000000/2000506.stm
China Denies Moon Mission Plans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
Stories like this reaffirm my faith in humanity.
I'm a 2000 man.
What more do you need?