Slashdot Mirror
KDE Gets The Hat
minkwe writes "Tension is currently rising between the KDE and GNOME followers, following the release of the new beta to Red Hat's upcoming distribution. Neither group appears to be satisfied with the fact that Red Hat has null-ified the difference between the two desktop environments."
So does it support transparency, anti-aliased logos and gradient shading now... that's a pretty fancy hat.
No distro should take preference over which is the default windowmanager... nor promote one more than the other, it is for the end user to decide which enviroment to use. This is what the open source movement is about.... choices!
Hey, this is my sig, if you don't like it, STOP READING MY POSTS!
Isn't that the point of open-source software?
5 posts and already its MySQL DB is 0wned!
unzip; strip; touch; grep; mount; fsck; yes; more; fsck; umount; make clean; sleep
Warning: Too many connections in
Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in
Unable to select database
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
This is already /.-ed Anyone got a mirror or a copy of the article?
slashdot effect. any HTML page we could look at ?
Could someone post a link to another relevant article or the articles content?
damn slashdot effect.
KDE sucks anyway. Oh, and Vim is better than Emacs, Java is a dead buzzword, PHP is far too slow to use in a production environment, Python is for hippies, Perl 6 is massively outclassed by Ruby, *BSD is dying, OS X is just eyecandy, Mozilla is a buggy piece of shit and spaces are better than tabs.
Now I just can't believe this. People slave away on their open source software "as a hobby" and "for the community." They claim they don't want any recognition in return. Then as soon as someone branches their app, they get all self-righteous.
Reality check: you are not guaranteed anything beyond what is spelled out in your license. None of this appears to violate the [L]GPL, so you brought in upon yourselves. If you didn't want someone to rebrand your app, then you should have gone with a more restrictive license. Red Hat owes you nothing because you told them they could have your work for free. You can't have it both ways, folks.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
for my laptop, even tho I'm slumming in WinBlowz
at the moment.
Look at Marcella Gagme's article in LJ. Best way to go.
Here'w a bunch of screenshots from the article to show what they are talking about:
Screenshots:
#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12 #13 #14 #15 #16 #17 #18 #19 #20
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
Richard Stallman wants GNOME and KDE to share theme definitions, so that a single theme will work both for apps using GTK+ and those using Qt.
I admire the good intentions here - on the surface, it seems like a good idea. But that's exactly the problem: it's consistency on the surface, and nowhere else. Without the visual distinction between GTK+ and Qt, there would no longer be any hint to the user that the two toolkits behave differently. The clipboard works differently, the controls work in subtly different ways, and the layout of controls is different in dialogs and windows.
If those disparities were resolved, then making the toolkits look the same would be a good idea - but then, what point would there be in having multiple toolkits in the first place? Tada, unified desktop environment. Heh. (You can see quite a few of those posting on Slashdot wishing for this outcome.)
If you're aiming to unify GNOME and KDE, the themes are the last thing that should be combined (after everything else is consistent), not the first thing. And if you're not aiming to unify them, making them look the same would make them harder to use, not easier.
- Source
---
Me? I think that MPT is entirely right, it will be confusing, but the complaints arising from that are a good way to get the toolkits to play along nicely, to iron out the differences. I don't mean that there shouldn't be any differences, or any innovation, but there's a lot of ground where there are pointless differences in the toolkits (takes on click some of the tiem, and two clicks other times).
It's about time.
You can find Google's cache of the article HERE.
"UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things."
Jon Katz tosses salad.
I have not been particularly pleased with their
RHL 7.3 distribution, and I cannot get ***reliable***
automatic upgrades to work anyway (RHN and up2date suck),
so after this outrage I think it is time to stop using
RedHat.
Mandrake Linux has impressed me greatly so I think
I will go join the Mandrake Club and use it exclusively
from now on.
I have not yet tried Debian, but from what I have
seen people are pleased with it and the apt tools, so
perhaps I will give it a shot too.
I like gnome better then KDE and I think it's a LOW blow from Redhat to play these games. Microhat needs to stop playing games.
Grrr... can't read the article.
I know this will annoy KDE supporters to no end, but I always liked the KDE (Qt) widgets, but not necessarily the KDE desktop.
This is why even when I went through my "KDE phase", I ran almost 100% GNOME apps. GNOME apps seem to be much more developed and popular... perhaps at the expense of GNOME 1.x desktop development? The long incubation period of GNOME2 explains a lot...
I am running RH 7.4 B2. I know Beta 3 is out.
I find some things are broken in Beta 2, but GNOME2 is still a huge jump over GNOME 1.4 it isn't even funny. Remember that most GNOME users DON'T run XIMIAN (OK, this is a guess), so they've been stuck on this ancient GNOME1.x codebase that Red Hat never updated.
I know plenty of developers who use GTK 1.x out of licensing issues, when they openly admire Qt but can't touch it. I imagine the improvements in GTK might not erase all of those Qt advantages, but surely it will make a dent. GNOME2 in my opinion has leapfrogged people's expectations.
With a better widget set, and a better desktop infrastructure, we should really see some major Linux application development.
Now what we REALLY need is some friendly cooperation, like along the lines of look & feel, inter-desktop drag and drop, etc.
So what's the problem here? Did red hat violate the GPL or something? They sued freetype? They won't let your red hat box boot os9 anymore?
Linux needs ONE stable, flexible, powerful and good looking GUI. It would make life so much easier for both developers and end users. Look at all the fuss over Aqua, Apple knows that consistent UI is a Good Thing(TM) and we can see the results in MacOS X. Get over this. The choice is not good in this matter. We need consistency if Linux is ever going to make it on the desktop.
J.
That was one of the most surreptitious and coherent trolls I've ever seen on slashdot. It made me laugh. If that's what it meant to be a troll, then we wouldn't worry with it. It'd bring needed satire into the fray. However, this is rare.
Let us just say that this points to what is becoming more and more true in the wake of DRM and palladium fears -- licensing is a religious issue.
Satire will be my epitaph.
I fully agree... this is why I use opensource in the first place. In fact, I only know of one or two power users that *don't* customize the daylights out of their work environment anyway. I like my distros to do what they were intended to do -- give me an easy way to install the latest goodies in a semi-stable state. I want the distro to leave out the politics and as much preconfiguration as possible --- I want to make the choices, not some committee.
The way I do things: pick the right tool for the right job and after some use, customize (interface, menus, scripts, modules, filesystem layout, etc) to best fit my needs. Linux works great for most of my needs, though I also use SGI, Sun, Mac, and Wintel systems for specific tasks.
What happened to Katz?
Since I use RedHat as a server and not as a workstation I couldn't care less whether I use Gnome or KDE. The only thing that matters is that I get a GUI editor instead of that stupid VIM.
Until Cakewalk, Macromedia's Dreamweaver Ultradev, and Adobe's Photoshop and Premiere runs on Linux, Linux is just a server. If I want to manage my Linux servers, Webmin does almost everything that I need since I have not seen any X apps that can do what Webmin does.
Command-line console utilities and the various shells are still far from perfection... so why are all of the lemmings moving to GUIs? They're just slow and inefficent anyway! NeWS was bad, X11 is worse. Windows and Mac OS are even less flexible.
If you have to make an X app, please do us all a favor and use "clean" straight xlib, stay away from the bloat of Motif, GTK, and Qt.
*Sigh*
I really wish Debian was a bit more with it... I think I may try Sarge soon.
Here's the screenshots in the easy to navigate "NakedBrowser".
I'm tired of the bickering in the Linux world. "My window manager is better than yours!", "My distro makes for a better server OS", "All software should be free and open source, anything else doesn't cut it!"
Hey gang. OS X 10.2 was released today and let me tell you, am I *ever* glad I made the switch to Apple.
Resume arguing.
The whole point of using free software is that the users and not the developers or corporations decide what you use and how to use it. If the gnome developers are angry that users prefer kde because of feature x,y, and z, then they should include it. If they do not want the features then don't code it. Plain and simple. I decide and not redhat, the kde development team, or the gnome development on what I use.
I think including both and having the individual user decide is the best way. Such as I laugh when I see all the clueless windows users wonder why debate and flame each other and which editor to use. In the windows world you only use notepad and purchase VC if you want to do any programming. Microsoft lays out everything for them. If you do not like the way redhat does something you can change it. I downloaded afterstep which redhat no longer supports as an example.
http://saveie6.com/
Ok, the GNOME link collapsed long before I got a chance to look at any of the discussion points, but I have looked at the screenshots. Besides the fact that RH has done a good job of making both G and K look boring and uninteresting (although the Keramic window border still manages to look good, despite their best efforts), I don't see what the problem is.
:Peter
Actually, I would like to see more visual and functional integration of the two. If I could just find a non-Aqua theme that is similar for both KDE and GNOME, I would be truly delighted. While the discontinuity of having two separate themes doesn't bother me much, the neat freak in me wishes for something more...complementary.
Red Hat can do whatever they want. They can have KDE as the default with a big window at startup that says "You are using KDE because we think Gnome blows goats." Open source doesn't mean RH has to include every single OS app in existence in a distro and say lots of nice things about them.
The Gnome article Stolen from butthead's post.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
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idiot
Pretty sad, really.
What RedHat did in the beta (null) was to unify Gnome 1, Gnome 2, KDE and xmms themes. Wasn't this precisely what ESR was saying? Actually it works quite well. The whole interface is slick and unified. Just swap RedHat's default icons for your favorites and you're golden.
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
I'm looking forward to trying this out. If Red Hat has made both desktops look nearly the same, I should be able to more objectively compare their functionality. Imagine that... evaluating a desktop environment without prejudice based on the default appearance.
What's up with that lame Mozilla icon (the rocket-ship one)?!
The competition between KDE and Gnome is wonderful! To all those who plead "let's all just get along ... let's combine these efforts into one desktop uber alles." ...bullocks. Competition invigorates. Both of these desktops are evolving at a phenomenal pace. Why? Well, duh, to survive.
As long as we don't forget about sportsmanship...
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
I find this hilarious, ./ers whining because Red Hat made KDE looks like XP and if I'm not mistaken, this is the same group that wants Linux to be easy enough for Grandma to use.
If Red Hat wants their window manager to resemble XP, I say more power to them. If the desktop looks familar enough to them, maybe a few more Windows users will switch.
Vim is not better than Emacs!!!
No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
Most of us agree that more users using Linux as a desktop is a good thing. Most of us agree the way to get there is to make Linux easier to use for the more *average* user. I think this goes a long ways in that direction.
As long as RedHat isn't limiting the choices of us geeks (and they are not, as far as I can tell), a simplified, unified desktop is great. I own a internet cafe/gaming center running linux, and most of my customers get a scared look in their eyes the first time they see linux (I use kde 3.01). So many options... Very quickly the scared look goes away, but I think this desktop would scare them *much* less...
Sorry KDE and Gnome, but you folks have to stop bitching about this - in the long run this is better for us all.
Greg
Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand (bash.org)
Jesus H. Jumping Christ! Can we stop this nonsense of which window manager is better? This does nothing productive, and it cements the perception that people who use Linux on the desktop do so because they have nothing better to do between Star Trek/Star Wars conventions.
KDE and Gnome have their merits, and I use one or the other frequently. The bad news is that I still maintain a Windows2000 partition simply because neither one is "there" yet.
I'm sure that the energy wasted in this non-issue would be better served creating an environment where my parents could get XF86 working. The damned thing intimidates me, I can't imagine what it's like to someone trying out Linux for the first time.
It's time the Open Source development teams quit putting up barbed-wire around their little camps and just get on with making their stuff better. These out-bursts remind me of the little cliques you saw in BBS chat rooms in the '90's.
Neither group appears to be satisfied with th fact that Red Hat has null-ified the difference between the two desktop environments.
I wonder how they feel about having their server null-ified by shashdot?
I haven't written Konqueror or anything like that, but I have submitted a few decent sized patches to a couple of KDE apps that have been accepted.
And I think this is just great. It is exactly what Linux needs to break into mainstream. The people who won't like it will be the Suse and Mandrake's of the world who won't like RedHat raising the usability bar so significantly. This should have been done along time ago IMHO.
I can't wait for this to be released stable.
. . . how the Linux kernel developers have felt for years. In other words, this hasn't been the first time RedHat has done this, and they are sure to do it again. It's all a part of Open Source, so get used to it. If RedHat does anything stupid (like they have done in the past with their packaged kernels), it will come back to haunt them. If they do anything good, then great, it will go back to the community.
Nathan's blog
Here's a mirror
Debian is a waste of time. It is about two years out of date!
How the fuck did you get over 25 karma ?
As everyone keeps pointing out, it's all about choice. "Microhat" - oh haha really clever.
You're obviously one of those people using linux because you hate Windows rather than because you love open source.
Now, being among like minded people you can't stand it and have to pick a side within a side, so you hate KDE and love gnome.
I bet when you go on gnome-loving forums you decide to hate mozilla and love opera (or vice versa).
graspee
I don't care if they do blend the two together. Now that I've seen the screen shots, I want to -use- their latest version. That's saying a lot from a Debian user!
What will the KDE crew do now? Make their own
linux distro? KDE is good, I like and use it but
we need to remember that the "desktop" is the current
battleground not which desktop. The challenger
is linux and the defender is Windows.
(Mac OS X is gaining fast and may end up sealing
the fate of the linux desktop) So forget about gnome
vs. kde and redhat this or redhat that. Ease of use and a
seamless interface to the web, etc. are the keys to success.
http://tinyurl.com/3t236
I've updated my web site with my opinion on this. Basically they made KDE a shell for Gnome apps so when you select the "KDE" desktop you don't get the KDE web browser, email client, etc... You get all Gnome apps. This is in addition to removing "KDE" from the KDE "About" boxes. They negated the differences between the desktops by removing much of KDE.
..everyone should get past WHETHER RH has the right to do this, and discuss if it's really that good an idea. We all know they have the right to, but the merits of their effort may not be all that clear.
A lot of people here seem to assume it *IS* a good idea, but narrowing the differentiation between the two WMs just seems to me to increase the probability of confusion.
My opinion is that their GNOME (and GNOME 2 in general) looks really ugly. Their KDE still manages to look better, which KDE in general is a little to widget happy.
Quanta is a big reason I keep wanting to use KDE, though it runs fine under GNOME.
Google Cache Here
As it is a beta, they might want to find a
objective way to have beta testers choose
between KDE or GNOME... like the coca cola
vs pepsi test...
However if the final release won't show the
About info, it then *is* a one microsoft way
of approaching their product... they have a rats
ass respect for KDE or Gnome coders.
Robert
Who really cares? The desktop wars are always fun, it pushes all products to "Excel" or change thier "Outlook." Heck I'm not making a "Powerpoint", I'm just stating the facts. Competition is good for linux, it pushes us to open new "windows" and grow. This is evident in the way open source coverage has grown "XP"ediately in media coverage lately. You mark my "Word", it does not matter; KDE or Gnome, which ever product continues to "Project" themselves forward with quality features, smooth intergration and stable ease of use; that will dominate the desktop.
uhhm...no offense or anything, but your servers must be really insecure if you heavily rely webmin, not that it's webmin's fault, but rather there are alot of tweaks that you need to do by hand before/after you break out webmin, webmin's cool but so is nano -w /etc/foobar if ya know what I'm sayin'
For all of you who still say this, GNOME and KDE are not window managers. Go to www.gnome.org and www.kde.org and read what these projects are about.
who cares? this is just.. dumb. what are we worried about here? anyone else notice that lilo looks different on different distros? who cares?
add this to the pointless and time-wasting flame wars bin, next to vi vs. emacs and the rest of the dumb things we bitch about.
-
I have not yet tried Debian, but from what I have
seen people are pleased with it and the apt tools, so perhaps I will give it a shot too.
Debian doesn't do 'I gotta have the most recent, wizbang package' thing. But if you want a stable platform with a consistent feel with any window manager they're the thing to have. The debian menu system simply rocks.
Actually, it's X11 that I despise the most. It's great if you're doing Unix sysadmin tasks or a network engineer, but if you're just a normal user looking to use a regular desktop, X11 just plain stinks. KDE and Gnome are both cumbersome, resource-intensive, and huge bandaids covering the shortcomings of the X11 system. The best both of them can do is cover about 50% of the features that other GUI systems such as MS Windows and Mac OS X give you without an add-on.
MS does include the 3.1 interface in Win 98 SE. You just jigger one of the startup files. It's rather cool, actually, and fast as hell, but you gotta manually reconstruct your menus and icon groups, which is a time consuming pain.
So, nobody does it.
Sarge and Sid. Is is "unstable" and will always be. Sarge is currently "testing" and will one day be "stable".
The whiny rant on your site, including such gems as "RH [are] a bunch of bastards", does nothing to aid your cause. Were Red Hat truely serious about destroying KDE as you claim, they simply wouldn't supply it with their distro.
You seem genuinely shocked that a company who has funded Gnome development for years isn't pouring resources into KDE. Be realistic about it - what kind of business sense is it to resource supporting two projects that replicate the tasks of each other. They put Mozilla as the default web browser, when they committed resources to Mozilla development? Oh the horror! I know that as a Linux user, I would rather they committed all their resources to improving one project, and get Linux out there on corporate desktops sooner.
Don't get me wrong, I've run KDE for two years and like it. But posting a flamebait rant, as you have, that a company has a different agenda to what you'd rather they do, demonstrates a lack of maturity. You should be content that they are still taking time to supply KDE with their distro. If they wanted to kill it off and strip the user of choice, they simply wouldn't include it.
Yes it is true that KDE is nothing other than a shell. Most applications you use are those of Gnome. I have very mixed feelings over this. Sure, I really like some of the stuff KDE has to offer, but in the end, I like the fact that I can change to KDE or Gnome and the look and feel is still the same. I know people have jumped the gun (like mosfet) by saying that nothing works and how this is the worst thing to ever happen, but eerything is still there. RedHat choose to standardize on Gnome. If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT! No one is sticking a gun to your head making you use it. As for the about box changes, I don't understand what the issue is. If i want to run a standard KDE configuration, then I'll revert back to the KDE defaults. As it is, the system works and looks great.
I looked at the screenshots, and I must say that alot of the frustrations posted are warranted. I mean it looks like KDE has been turned into gnome. I started out using gnome when I started using linux a couple of years ago, but found soon that gnome sucked and sucked hard. I switched to kde. That's not the issue though, the issue is red hat who supports gnome is stealing fair and due credit from those who work on KDE. I try out all the new major distro's and I replaced mandrake 8 with rh 7.3 when it came out cause I wanted to check out kde3.0, I have to say that the RH 7.3 sucked!!!! It has a huge, major, crippling, terrible, bug in the sound daemon. Once mandrake 9 comes out I doubt I will ever use redhat again. I just want something that doesn't manipulate me and that works good. Mandrake isn't perfect, but they've won me over time and time again.
That's what i get for not previewing the subject. I have ran Limbo but now I am running NULL.
Those crazy fools... They need some real help.
And you're complaining?
.... and maybe it should be a web browser, Instead, they just want the best web browser avaliable and expect it to be in their goddamned internet menu.
I'm usign the Red Hat beta Null right now. I *like* the fact that all my apps - GTK1, GTK2, QT, XUL, and XMMS skins - look consistent. Other people I know have been asking for this for years.
Did people complain when people made their KDE and GNOME menus consistent? Not if I remeber correctly. Because nobody ever says `today, I feel like launching a GTK app
Likewise, nobody says `today I wish half my app would look like X, and the other half Y'. The lack onconsistent theming between these two desktops is retarded (If you find that offensive, becausee it implies mentally retarded people are stupid, they are).
Red Hat have done some excellent work on Null and done a lot of useability improvements to their desktops. Consistent looking menus and widgets and comparable panel apps is just the start of what should hopefully become a linux desktop where people pick apps based on quality rather than toolkit, and the desktop reflects this.
Redhat can do as they wish as long as they don't violate the license. The real problem is that all those greats features they're losing by not using KDE apps exclusively shouldn't be KDE only features, all X apps should share code and integrate well, etc. KDE (and GNOME and anything else)'s apps should have to stand on their own, individually, not all or nothing. Redhat SHOULD choose default apps (while allowing users to change the default globally [i.e. in GNOME and KDE by changing on setting not two]), for a particular task, and have them the default everywhere. This makes it easier for users to switch between desktops and try different things out. Switching desktops and switching mail clients and switching browsers are each seperate tasks, individual switches if you will, instead of only one giant switch.
I love Kimmy!
... What they think is right, which is right (to do what they think is right, that is).
And im ok with most of it, except with the menu icon.
No offense meant, but i like a lot better the Gnome2 foot (or the KDE's K) than the hat.
They give a lot of personality (the foot and the K, that is).
Is it physical retardation or mental. Now in the case of mental you're right. However, Stephen Hawking is physically retarded and it's doubtful you're intelligent enough to call him stupid.
Just thought your (if your offended) comment deserved a comment of its own.
So, according to the IRC log, KDE's "liberal licensing policy" has allowed Red Hat to "trash KDE" by putting "Red Hat icons on the desktop," and replacing "Konquerer and KMail by Mozilla and Evolution".
Is it just me, or are these guys even greater control freaks than Bill Gates himself?
How can they put their software under the LGPL and then expect to control its distribution?? These guys have seriously misunderstood the meaning of 'open source'.
Typo: Read "yospu" as "you". Sorry.
Bruce Perens.
It's really easy to get KDE to behave the usual way actually.
I just installed (null) and indeed, the desktop was exactly like GNOME's but the redhat desktop for GNOME is not the original one either.
it took me about 10 minutes to set KDE to behave exactly the way I want it too and to use all the original KDE icons.
It's really not that bad.
Well, gee, mosfet, sorry to tell you, but if you didn't want them to do this, you should've put it in your software license. Nobody forced you to contribute code to KDE under the GPL. Redhat's actions are not only totally legal, but totally right. The ability of third parties to customize Free Software to their specific needs is one of the most important freedoms afforded by the GPL.
Which is he difficulty of doing dependency resolution post-install. Sure RPM can tell you what you need, but none of the post-install frontends in RedHat would actually resolve these dependencies for you (the one think I really really liked about SuSE).This is good and I wish them the best.
Besides, RedHat wants a supportable desktop so they can go after the corporate workstation market. I am sure this has a lot to do with it.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
GNOME applications are way better than KDE ones - sorry, I wouldn't change Evolutions for KMail, or Galeon for Konqueror. So what?
QT is ugly. GTK+1 is acceptable, GTK+2 is beautiful. So what?
(null)'s default theme is beautiful and - sin of the sins for KDErs - Mosfet doesn't made it (Mosfet looks like the only KDEr with artistic pendors, so he can maintain this "God blows everyone that dares not to use my artwork" attitude. Personally IMHO tigert and jimmac kicks ass.). Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo what?
The question is: people becomes confused with too much choice. People prefer default looks by default.
And that's way OS vendors/packagers puts default looks and feels on their desktops. Microsoft does it, Apple does it, IBM does it, Sun does it, HPaq does it. Why not RedHat? And yes, if you hate their artwork (I LOVED it), you can always install what YOU want - isn't that the joy of Linux?
Cesar Cardoso can be found at cesar at zyakannazio dot eti dot br (or at least I believe so)
what's the problem?
"Put everything on it."
Fortunately, as one person, using an inappropriate reference to Stephen Hawking (who is not "retarded" but disabled due to an adult-onset disease), pointed out, there are different ways in which one can be below the currently defined age-appropriate levels of functioning. Some people who are assessed as "retarded," such as people with William's syndrome, have scores in the high end of areas of the verbal portion of IQ tests yet are not able to maneuver through their physical environments due to an equally remarkable inability to remember or internally configure aspects of their physical lanscape. People with William's syndrome are also known for their loving attitude and story-telling ability, which make them welcome guests at nursing homes and hospitals.
Perhaps "retarded" should not be used as a catch-all for a category of people you might wish to describe as undesirable, incapable, or unpleasant.
I'm mostly a Windows guy by background and have been supporting it for years. I would love to be able to roll Linux out to my users, but I need a clean, easy to use interface. I don't give a damn what it is -- I just want it to work consistently and with ease -- like Windows. Yeah -- like Windows. Every single one of my users, no matter their skill level can very easily do things like change their background, resolution, create Word documents, print files, email said files, etc -- on Windows. Before Linux can truly move ahead, some serious integration issues need to be addressed. All I want is a desktop that does its job -- who cares what it is? A user in an office should never have to care. They should simply be able to use it.
I see Red Hat's move as a step in this direction and although some folks do not like Red Hat, I think we are going to begin to see them make major inroads at the desktop, which is good for all of us.
I admit I am absolutely fascinated by the whole Linux phenomenon and this debate gets right to one of the core issues. Open source may indeed be "about choice" but until someone chooses to make a usable, consumer-ized distribution the world will choose to use another operating system on the desktop.
Linux will never be more than a geek toy and a server OS until and unless someone takes seriously the idea that its general usablity has a long way to go. I predict that when/if this happens, that consumerized distro will be universally hated and soundly thrashed in these forums for "taking away choice," and using "too much eye candy," etc.
There are, naturally, other hurdles for Linux making inroads on the desktop. But its consumer-friendliness is certainly one of the biggies. Perhaps Redhat is making more moves in that direction than I realized. I guess the signs are there...it's already been branded as the "Linux for sissies" in these forums.
You like your Macintosh better than me, don't you Dave? Dave? Can you hear me Dave?
Ahh, seems that even though I earned my RHCE (yeah big deal) I still stay with Slackware, I prefer to start out with the minimum, then add what I want, not what they want me to start out with.
I guess freedom is'nt free after all...There is always a catch.
Tollieman
Read the KDE FAQ:
http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/index.html
"Together with a free implementation of UNIX such as Linux, UNIX/KDE constitutes a completely free and open computing platform available to anyone free of charge including its source code for anyone to modify."
Now, they don't go into detail here, but they are touting customization as an advantage of KDE. I would think modifying Konqueror or the KDE menus would both apply here.. So, do they or don't they want people modifying their software? Redhat and Ximian have always modified Gnome, so what's the big deal with Redhat modding KDE?
They didn't make KDE look like Gnome, they have recognized KDE as a valid option. Perhaps if they made KDE look WORSE than Gnome, then we'd have something to bitch about.
"Navindra Umanee: This is bad. Why are they doing this? They seem to be actively trying to destroy us by making us look bad. What is the point of all these stupid changes to cripple KDE and make us look like (or worse than) GNOME?"
They only thing they have done is accept KDE as a valid desktop option for users. They have always taken the default Gnome and customized it, and now they are doing the same to KDE.
If they don't want companies modifying their software,they need to release KDE under a more restrictive license. People can't release under a free/open license which *encourages* people to modify it and expect people not to.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
He linked to the Emacs page, which is in fact the OS that RMS has produced. It just needs a kernel to bootstrap it. =P
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Programming directly under X would force a programmer to deal with many various problems that he need not with a toolkit. So instead of having to deal with code that creates tabs for him, he uses GTK which provide widgets to easily create the tabs for him.
See how life is easy with a toolkit?
Sunny Dubey
But I use Fluxbox as my WM with mostly gtk apps. Gqview, Galeon, Gimp, Grip, Etc. I don't get what the whole Gnome VS. Kde thing is. It's all about the apps. Hell, I would give up all the WM's and go back to TWM before I would give up the apps.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Anyone want to comment on the fact that the first link claims that "About KDE" has been removed? I think unifying the appearances is a good thing, but I don't see what RedHat hopes to gain by not giving credit where it's due. Even if the licenses don't explicitly say these dialogs need to remain untouched (and for all I know they do) RH is making a bad PR move right there.
Everything else about the changes looks gravy to me.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
I just came back home from watching Signs, so when I clicked on the link and my browser told me I couldn't connect I was like, "OH MY GOD, IT's HAPPENING!!!"
;)
Then I remembered, "Oh, wait, that's right..."
Snarkiness is inversely proportional to wisdom because it emphasizes feeling right rather than being right.
get some real TTF fonts for chrissakes.
I'm running null on my laptop right now and when you start a KDE app (I use the KCalc app rather than the Gnome calc, for example) you find the about section still lists the authors and the fact it comes from KDE.
As far as I can tell, none of the KDE apps have been removed. The only thing different is that they have picked what they consider best of breed apps and given them generic labels like mail, or browser.
You don't get all Gnome apps, you get a mix. The nice thing is that they look somewhat integrated and it works. I thought the idea was to give the end user a good experience. RedHat is trying to do that by picking the best of the apps out there for the defaults.
You know, I had more respect for the KDE guys before these ludicrous rants based on falsehoods. It is not even childish, it is just plain pathetic.
Well I am a developer of an open source project (actually the project lead). Lets see-- I have called Microsoft a Monopolist, incompetent security engineers, etc.
I am starting my own business, so I am a capitalist. But we are going to use open source software wherever possible. And it won't be possible everywhere, but it will be the backbone of our network and on nearly all the desktops.
After all Linux, like Redhat, IBM, and HP is communist, right?
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
"The lack onconsistent theming between these two desktops is retarded (If you find that offensive, becausee it implies mentally retarded people are stupid, they are)."
Perhaps, but you're ugly and your mother and I never rubbed that in your face.
Dad
Quote:
Navindra Umanee: Can you give me full details on the changes? Have you tried this beta?
Ian Geiser: Mostly off of what I have heard on IRC. I was planning on downloading this weekend...
from http://dot.kde.org/1030073479/1030203696/
I keep seeing this and it makes me laugh. Mainly because all the sudden XP gets a "pretty" interface, why? Because XP is trying to be KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker, Sawtooth, Enlightenment, etc. Plus, some of the "new" functionality in the XP GUI existed in some of the X windows managers before XP came out with them.
I always find it frustrating to see Open Source users who would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. When will we ever be to a point where Linux users can toss aside their "underdog" role? Here we are on the cusp of having the first true "windows killer" (watch out Mac fans, you're next) and we have a few individuals creating this undercurrent of pettiness and bickering. Over what? Configurations? On a beta release, no less! Jeezus! Like this distribution is targeted at you? And, even if you decided to use it, like you couldn't figure out how to restore the GNOME or KDE defaults? And, I'd wager that KDE developers get proper credit when the next version is released. Conspiracy theories are for losers. Drop the persecution schtick unless you've got real proof.
At least most of the Slashdot responses that I've read have seen through this non-issue. (Are there maybe some Microsoft "ringers" in the KDE or GNOME projects? Portraying Linux users as a fractious, juvenile contingent would seem to suit the needs of Bill, Steve, and their agents all too well.)
I am a KDE user who likes many of the GNOME apps. And, while I'm not much of a fan of generic names ("Web Browser") for applications, I welcome a more cohesive look between desktop systems. Keep up the great work Red Hat, KDE, GNOME, and everyone else working to bring a quality (and free!) desktop experience to non-technical users everywhere.
.
Will it's interface be also unified or ratehr nullified?
You ever hear of M$Linux??
I know I shouldn't be, but I'm stunned that so many slashdotters are so quick to pounce on all KDE developers because of the comments made by a few people. Try checking out more comments before flaming volunteers, eh? Hell, even Gnomers are said to be concerned about the changes to thier environment, but I guess since it's slashdotted no one cares. ( Out of sight, out of mind. )
Personally, I think that if Red Hat:
1) Doesn't violate any licences
and
2) Notes any changes they made to either environment
Then I have no problem with it, and from what I've read on the Dot, most KDE developers seem to be thinking along these lines as well.
So, for everyone making negative comments, quit yer bashing! The very people you bash have probably done more to help the community than you ever will.
All spelling mistakes in this post were on purpose, so bite me.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
So many people are talking about how easy this will make it to switch back and forth between Gnome and KDE. Who the hell does this? Most people pick a desktop environment they like and stick with it. As long as you have the libraries for both installed, you can run Gnome and GTK+ apps from KDE, and vice versa. You guys realize this, right?
If you're going to make all the desktops look the same, why even offer more than one in the first place? I switched to KDE because I preferred its look and feel over Gnome's, but left Gnome installed so that I could run the occasional Gnome app (I use GnoRPM instead of Kpackage, etc.). I know that RedHat likes Gnome (probably because the G stands for GNU), but this whole thing is stupid. People who want Gnome will use Gnome. RedHat should let their users who want KDE have KDE, and freaking have it look like KDE.
Nevermind that those screenshots look an awful lot like Windows XP. I guess it's Mandrake for my Linux workstation from here on. Let's not forget that this will prevent Linux from making inroads in the UNIX workstation arena, a market that has time and again shown they don't want Windows. ILM, Rythm & Hues, et al, will be mighty pleased when they "upgrade" to the new RedHat distro only to find their desktop (whichever they choose) looks just like WinXP (and yes, I realize that ILM uses OpenMotif, but looking at the Film Gimp website it would seem that Rythm & Hues uses KDE). If I liked Windows, I'd use that on my workstation instead of KDE and Linux.
Yes, you heard right, I have been using Linux on a desktop machine for what seems like forever, and have been *gasp* getting work done. Both programming and VFX work. The fact that in some apps the buttons are in different places than others makes little difference to me, and I'll never understand Jeff Raskin and his crowd who simply cannot cope if two different programs don't have the exact same menu layout or whatever.
NOT.
First of all, this is actually some developers over on the KDE side of the house complaining. I just wish the KDE/GNOME guys would get over the NIH concerns.
Already they are doing a couple of stupid things that will ensure the dominance of Windows for another 5 years.
QT# does not implement the standards form interface making it incompatable with a large number of Windows and Mono applications.
A common Linux API's in C# would be a nice start. Some simple SOAP bingings that are platform independent would make the Linux experience much nicer.
Think about how to play together rather then "my program is better then yours"
My choice would be for everyone to stfu and forget about this. This is just retarded. If you at all care about this, you are retarded. Stop reading this, retard!
I know I'm probably going to get negative karma for this, but I have to say it.
GROW UP!!!!!
I'm a KDE fan, and I often check out kde-look.org to look for nice new ways to improve that way my desktop look. What I have noticed on there is that a large number of theme, icons, and whatever are designed to make KDE look more like WinXP or OS X, and everybody seems to love them. So nobody has a problem with making Linux look and act like a different OS, but everybody has a problem with it when somebody decides to make one Linux desktop look like another Linux desktop? I can't believe this is even an issue.
I have to say I'm really disappointed that my fellow Linux and Unix users would get upset about something that is so irrelevant. There are much more important things about...like stopping this childish desktop war. If you like KDE, use KDE. If you like GNOME, use GNOME. If you don't like the icons or styles that Red Hat included with their distro, then change the damn thing. There's no need to cry about it.
Mod the parent up! Not geek-recognition-only-brand names, but functional names are crucial to letting new users succeed. And at this point, 90% are still new users! Only when 90% of everybody knows your brand name, can you start using it instead of the functional name.
Finally! It looks like someone at Red Hat 'got it.' A consistant looking desktop based on getting work done. You want email? Choose email from the list. You want a browser, same deal. And the mixture of Gnome and KDE apps appears like it was done based on which has the best quality (subjective as that may be). If the other distros aren't scared, they should be. This must have been a massive undertaking. I can't wait to use it for real!
Many people have been calling (and some working on) interoperability between desktops for some time. Both the GNOME and KDE developers have been paying lip service to this for years, and the result has been a little bit of drag-n-drop interoperability and a few minor theme tweaks. Finally, Red Hat is actually doing something significant about it. Why? Because Red Hat actually has a financial stake in listening to their users.
Unlike KDE developers, who hear primarily from people regarding KDE issues, and GNOME developers, who hear primarily from people regarding GNOME issues, Red Hat hears from everyone, including people who use both GNOME and KDE and have to put up with the highly inconsistent desktop and app interfaces. In addition to my normal tasks, I also support desktop Linux users at work, and regardless of how we geeks think, average users, even otherwise technical people who just aren't computer geeks, are annoyed and confused by the wildly different interfaces between GNOME, KDE, and various other applications (such as OO). It may sound strange to many here, but I've been asked several times why you can't embed a DIA drawing in an OpenOffice document. It's a real-world problem and Red Hat is actually trying to do something about it, at least at the desktop level. Unfortunately, they can't as easily do much about the apps themselves.
The open source development model has been very good at producing software that is of high functional quality, but it has been much less successful in several areas of consistency, such as user interfaces, printing, and font handling. This is one area where high level integrators like distro vendors can help make a difference. Whether or not you like the icons, it's good that Red Hat is taking this step, knowing full well that it will be controversial among the more hardcore Linux community.
because the konqueror file manager is the best file manager out there for linux. I can have multiple windows inside that main window.
We just finished setting up her new eMac. She was on RedHat 7.3 for about a week before giving up. She tried both KDE and GNOME. Her main problem? No decent printer drivers! She's an artist and all the printer drivers we tried for her HP 1220C sucked. Sure GIMP looks great on the screen but try to color correct and print out something identical - just didn't work for us. She loved KDE and all the little toys, hell she spend a day just tweaking her desktop! The main point of this post is for her printing is the killer app and it isn't there yet. She could take either desktop.
That's all I got. Feel free to add more.
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
I do not like the new look. I would rather
GNOME-ized KDE than vice versa. But I do not
care as I Ximianize my Red Hat anyway.
Kubus
Or should we call it GDE?
l lustrator
Here's my list of favorite apps:
Gonqueror
Gapital
Kimp
Knumeric
Knucash
Gi
Gword
Kaleon
Givio
This is my 2nd or 3rd comment on this article and I'll just cap it off for now. Most of the people who posted comments don't run the new Beta of RedHat. Sure, RedHat choose certain applications as defaults and made both gnome and kde look the same. However, if you want to use KMail, Konqueror, KWord, etc. they are all still there. If you want to use them in KDE, customize the menu in KDE so they point to your preferred apps. At first I thought the moron menus in RedHat were terrible: Browse Internet, Check E-mail, etc. But the more I thought about it, the better it was for *most* newer users. If I want to be a power user, all I gotta do is edit the menu to my liking. Most power users already do this. For all of you that have said that their is no more "About...", well, every KDE app I ran had the About box that mentioned the authors, project name, and license (GPL). Sure, they lost that stupid intro "about" screen that you got when starting the app, but who cares. I like what they've done.
Also to Mosfet... let me get it off my chest... you are a great programmer and I respect you but you are a sensationalist idiot. I applied you Liquid theme to RedHat's new beta and it worked fine. Your webpage says that it doesn't work in the new beta. Now why is that? You may be a great programmer, but you are no better than 99.99999999% of slashdotters who come on here and make stuff up. Why don't you download the new beta and try it for yourself before bashing it?
Being a KDE enthusiastic I don't see how this could be entirely bad. This only shows the power of KDE and how heavily it can be customized. After all this is how KDE is promoted
And the fact that RedHat finally seems to embrace KDE as a desktop environment for their distribution is also good news.
However, removing the about-box really seems to be a violation of the license if the same information is not displayed anywhere else. Correct me if I'm wrong.
w00t!
Users have no clue what in the world KPP is. So I suggest redhat change the menu name to Dialup Settings or something to that effect. Please get rid of the KXXX crap it just confuses users...
Got Code?
I think I'm going to adopt those words in leu of retarded.
I've always found using "retarded" instead of "gay" because I know/interact with almost no retarded people, a rather stupid thing to do. I like your verbage though and think I'll adopt it.
I live in a giant bucket.
Does this whole KDE and GNOME thing remind anyone else of the Rush Song, with Red Hat weilding the proverbial "hatchet, axe, and saw"?
Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
Who cares? This was bound to happen. We all knew it. Linux companies start out trying to be true to the community and users sort of feel that the product (Red Hat, Mandrake Linux, etc.) is theirs. It's not. It's a product sold to you. (some of you) You don't control it. Red Hat is becoming increasingly driven by the almighty dollar and they're going to do what is right for them. If you don't like it, switch. When there's nothing left to switch to, start your own d@mn company. Don't get so offended because a company put a feature you don't like in a product that you don't have to buy!
Mac OS X does no such thing. They have thier own GUI system based on Display PDF. If anything, X runs on top of that.
IMO, the whole point to the X design was to say "not my problem".
DCMonkey
You mean a commercial company that's paying the rent by distinctively re-packaging a free OS has distinctively re-packaged the OS again?
If you don't like what Red Hat's doing, then use the power of the almighty buck to reward another distro.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
You know I actually agree with you. Notice that when you look at the desktop as a whole. There's not that harsh, jarring feeling you get with others. A desktop should be soothing to the eyes. If they've also managed to fix all the other issues as well (clipboard, dependencies, etc), then this could give Mandrake a run for it's money.
Actually, I feel that way.
My ideal situation would be for all applications to look and behave in the same way. It might be themeable, but there's only one theme - all applications use it.
But Qt-based, gtk-based, and XUL-based applications do not behave in the same way. So I would rather they be visually distinct. The consistency of appearance is a foolish one IMHO because it falsely implies a consistency of behavior.
(Obligatory quote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." It's not really appropriate - I respect the RedHat developers even if I disagree with this decision. I just like the quote. ;)
Fortunately, much of it can be turned off fairly easily, at least in the KDE area. I installed (null) tonight and have done this already. What I don't see any way to get rid of is their bad iconset.
"Linux needs ONE stable, flexible, powerful and good looking GUI."
True, we only need one but having a choice isn't a bad thing.
"It would make life so much easier for both developers and end users."
The users can load which ever desktop they like and the hardest thing about different desktops is that some of them have trays and other's do not. Not really a big deal.
All in all choice is good and I wouldn't suggest that we drop Gnome or KDE. I would suggest that we have a minimum standard set of libraries. That's what developers really need.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Linux is not a contender..
If you put Linux next to some other operating systems out there for a cost comparison, the conclusions are devastating for Linux.
Linux costs not only more because of the frequent updates which require new cdrom's to be bought if you don't have a high speed Internet connection.
Another factor in Linux cost is its maintenance. Linux requires a *lot* of maintenance, work doable only by the relatively few high-paid Linux administrators that put themselves - of course willingly - at a great place in the market. Linux seems to need maintenance continuously.
Add to this the cost of loss of data. Linux' native file system, EXT2FS, is known to lose data like a firehose loses water, when the file system isn't unmounted properly. Other unix file systems are much more tolerant towards unexpected crashes. An example is the FreeBSD file system, which with soft updates enabled, performance-wise blows EXT2FS out of the water, and doesn't have the negative drawback of extreme data loss in case of a system breakdown.
Factor in also the fact that crashes happen much more often on Linux than on other unices. On other unices, crashes usually are caused by external sources like power outages. Crashes in Linux are a regular thing, and nobody seems to know what causes them, internally.
The steep learning curve compared to about any other operating system out there is a major factor in Linux' cost. The system is a mix of features from all kinds of unices, but not one of them is implemented right. A Linux user has to live with badly coded tools which have low performance, mangle data seemingly at random and are not in line with their specification. On top of that a lot of them spit out the most childish and unprofessional messages, indicating that they were created by 14-year olds with too much time, no talent and a bad attitude.
I can go on and on and on, but the message is clear. In this world, there is no place for Linux. It's not an option for any one who seeks a professional OS with high performance, scalability, stability, adherence to standards, etc. The best place it should ever reach is the toy store, and even that would be flattering.
Let's keep in mind here we're only talking about a desktop environment and not a religion... so @!$#ing what if RedHat changes the icons and changes default applications? Change them back if you don't like them... Good lord, if I somehow were able to release a different distribution of Windows, I might not want IE to be the default browser... I might not want Outlook to be the default mail client... Maybe I want Mozilla instead... that'd be my perogative... but you're bitching the way Microsoft would be if Kollar-Kelly makes them allow alternate distros of Windows...
Anyways, there's really two parts to the desktop environment: the libraries used by the applications supporting the environment and the basic desktop tools such as the panel/taskbar and the desktop/file browser... As far as the applications, use the best application for the job regardless of the environment... if you ask me, that's Evolution and Galeon right now... As far as the desktop tools, log into the environment that has the one you like the most... I think Nautilus still leaves much to be desired so I use Konq...
Get off the damn high horse, KDE developer folk... GNOME isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be, so cut that out... and as a user, I use the right tool for the right job... Konq is a crappy browser compared to the Gecko based ones, and KMail doesn't compare to Evolution... RedHat went with a desktop neutral solution (Mozilla), and you're still giving them shit about it...
At least the GNOME people are more concerned about the user experience...
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
That's what the Gnome human interface guidelines say too...
mp3: l33t term for empty.
You think the only choices for programming in the Windows world are Notepad and Visual Studio? What a fucking retard.
I bet... no wait, I fucking guarantee we have more text editors than Linux users do. Well, at least more *complete* text editors, I'm sure SourceForge is cluttered with 10,000 half completed ones.
How about this: Textpad vs. UltraEdit, both of which kick the shit out of any GUI text editor on Linux. Or if you prefer console, we have... wait... Vi and Emacs! because they both run under NT you dumb gitbag.
Windows computers make up 90%+ of the desktops of the world, and on those computers, you are functionally illiterate. Congratulations fuckwad, like the Simpsons character you so closely resemble, you've wasted your life.
They say it now plain and clear! Microsoft is right! The desktop is a complete and integrate part and don't you dare favor other programs above our!!! This standpoint makes me sick! go support microsoft if you think like that. I dislike this standpoint were choise is not a option!
Does anybody complain that SUSE favors and funds KDE? No! Take a look and see how the KDE desktop is way better in SUSE then the Gnome!
id somebody complain when Mandrake tried to give both the desktops a equal look with their very ugly icons! No! The standard setup of Gnome in 8.2 is very ugly with those icons.
Yes Red Hat funds Gnome, so what! SUSE funds KDE, it is their choice! and if Red hat favoured Gnome that much they did it like SUSE, make KDE beautifull and represent Gnome piss poor. Not trying to unify the look between both.
And favoring Gnome apps. I don't see it. Evolution is a great mail-package so why not make it the standard choise, esspecially if you want to sell to coperations (outlook compatible remember!!). Mozilla isn't Gnome, Galeon is! and what application is better to accustom people coming from windows? A application that runs on windows an linux, solaris etc (mozilla) or a application that only run under linux?
OpenOffice same view. Not Gnome and operates under windows and other OS of choise. plus is microsoft file format compatible!
Come on dispute me!
From what I could tell from the pictures, mostly everything configuration related (for the regular user) can be done via an UI. This is good.
Now, if there only was a decent Office-like application with MS Office interoperability, plus new commercial-quality games every once in a while, I would install RH to my parents' computer. Now they're running XP, and I think it suits them well for the purposes they're using the computer.
wow, your not the same person replying to your own post at all are you.
do you have _any_ friends at all ?
They have removed KMail as Konqueror as default programs in KDE, and they've hided the logos...
:(.
Most people who use KDE instead of Gnome do it, mainly, for three reasons: looks, kmail and konqueror. By hiding these things away from the user they are trying to use their predominant position in the Linux market to take new users away from KDE and into Gnome. It's not that different from when MS integrated IE into Windows to fight Netscape.
As many people have said in the past, it would be nice that KDE apps looked like Gnome apps when run under Gnome, and viceversa. This is far from what RedHat has done. Desktops and GUIs should be unified, yes. But you should be able to choose which one you want, not destroy one so you either choose Gnome or a cut and shred KDE.
RedHat has always disliked KDE, but I never thought they would go this far
Many of the replies posted here are along the lines of "yeah! I wanted unified looks! How nice!". Ok, I'm happy you like it, now... could we start talking about the real problem?
The problem is that Redhat has modified KDE so as the main KDE apps are Gnome apps.
The problem is that RedHat has removed the KDE logos from KDE.
Basically, they are trying to make RedHat KDE users switch to Gnome. What's the point of using KDE if you have to configure it to look like KDE, use KDE programs and behave like KDE?
We need common GUI themes NOW, so that if you use KDE, Gnome apps look like KDE apps, and if you use Gnome, KDE apps look like Gnome apps. But you should be able to choose which of the two options you want. RedHat has already chosen for you. YOU WANT GNOME.
And people get angry when MS chooses you want IE or Messenger... as it happens here you can choose to use different apps!!!
Only if you live in a shell, you didn't notice uproar the new Red Hat beta is making in the KDE camp. But at least we know now where they stand. And it is not looking bright if they have their way (well if you like the freedom of open source that is). Plain and simple the future in their eyes is not Microsoft but isn't about choice either. Their future looks K.......... On desktop, palmtop where ever you use a computer, they are the fifth colon of the Kompany and Trolltech (just kidding, but I like to take part in the conspiracy hysteria that is happening in the KDE camp ;-)).
But seriously:
They say it now plain and clear! Microsoft is right! The desktop is a complete and integrate part and don't you dare favor other programs above our!!! This standpoint makes me sick! go support Microsoft if you think like that. I dislike this standpoint were choice is not a option!
Does anybody complain that SUSE favors and funds KDE? No! Take a look and see how the KDE desktop is way better in SUSE then the Gnome!
Did somebody complain when Mandrake tried to give both the desktops a equal look with their very ugly icons! No! The standard setup of Gnome in 8.2 is very ugly with those icons and setup choices, Mandrake doesn't turn around the both either, they like KDE. Is this a problem?
No, just like in SUSE the Gnome camp delivers a choice here (in Mandrake I mean) in the form of the Ximian desktop and they do a hell of a good job. Now if the KDE people would come out of there closed world were everything is with a big K and see how Gnome has dealt with the same problem all over the past years in a KDE dominated world, but no, they thought they had won the war, 50% of desktops K and it was just a matter of (little) patients and Red Hat had to come around! But Gnome 2.0 is is on steam and watch what will happen in the beginning of 2003 when it will be very clear what Gnome means by integration (Bonobo and Instant Messaging, Mail, WWW, whatever, this is looking promising). I don't see Gnome fuming and ranting in a KDE dominated desktop distribution world. They are carefully laying (a complete) new bases and doing a wonderful job! Stronger they are not developing a complete Gnome oriented world (like KDE is doing), look at their core, it possible to implement this everywhere. Things like Pango,ATK. Gconf and Gstreamer (and lesser Bonobo) are not Gnome specific, but they are nice layers to build a integrated desktop on and you don't have to develop GTK+ or Gnome (different s is becoming moot) packages to use it! The Gnome world is unlike KDE not K or G, but it is all about choice!! They don't invent the wheel all to by themselves to make it G(nome), but take and learn from other great open source projects like Mozilla (Galeon) and OpenOffice.org. This is what open source is all about, not by replacing a MS oriented world to a KDE oriented world. Look how KDE deals with success programs. They copy it and even name them like the other ones (kaim comes to mind)
Yes Red Hat funds Gnome, so what! SUSE funds KDE, it is their choice! and if Red Hat favored Gnome that much they did it like SUSE, make KDE beautiful and represent Gnome piss poor. Not trying to unify the look between both, not by making KDE more like Gnome, but by making KDE and Gnome more like Red Hat. A very wise decision you can see now, because this even this makes the KDE camp freak out (referring to Red Hat as Stalin, very funny if you think deeper and then look to the standpoint KDE is making here)
And favoring Gnome applications. I don't see it. Evolution is a great mail-package so why not make it the standard choice, especially if you want to sell to cooperations (outlook compatible remember!!).
Mozilla isn't Gnome, Galleon is! and what application is better to accustom people coming from windows? A application that runs on windows and *nux (Mozilla) or a application that only run under *nux?
Open Office same as above. Not Gnome and operates under windows and other OS of choice. plus is Microsoft file format compatible!
Come on dispute me!
It just makes me feel that I come back to damned, ugly, efficientless windows.
And the menu, yeah it's goddamned, would somebody tell me why the heck menu exists? Hot-keys are far more efficient!
nobody says `today I wish half my app would look like X, and the other half Y'.
Hey! I'm also a human being!! Don't ignore me, please.
Am I the only one to think that Red Hat's style for KDE looks reeally nice, giving us a good desktop when sharing KDE and Gnome apps (I personally use Mozilla and Evolution in a KDE desktop, which I think is the best choice amongst all similar apps). So for now, if Red Hat removes the hat from the "start button," and when they did not mess around with any of the about boxes, I would be very pleased to switch to Red Hat null.
--- Sigmentation Fault - Comments Dumped
Redhat is not equal to linux. Just setup Gentoo 1.2 with KDE 3.0.3. happy with it.
Yeah, this is great. It's good to know that someone thinks about it's users on the "Linux world". Let's forget all those fucking complicated menus with hundreds of options, and all those different looks... The "simple" desktop should be the default, the advanced user knows how to turn on all those useless ( for the average user ) options. Consistency is needed ! Just look at MacOS X...
OpenSource is about open minded too !
This is about opensource, your opinion count as mine. If you have any kind of influence on users mind, you should be quiet. Ah, and your web site sucks, I think you should use frontpage.
Open your mind before opening your source !
Although I stubornly refuse to work with RedHat after another one of their famous progressive actions, I think this one is from a different nature.
Unfortunately, I just admit, John Doe wants a simular look and feel for all the machines he is working on. Just try to explain the concept of Window Managers, and the layered structure (OS/X/WM).
Most ppl work with a "computer" and start a browser and some office program, they really do not care what it is running (but the sysadmins do). With Mozilla and OpenOffice.org, GNU/Linux finally seems to have mature solutions for this (FS/OS). For the first time in years (ever since the demise of WP), a user has again a choice what software to use for his/her "productivity" tasks with these mature solutions.
The only confusing thing is the desktop which has so many looks and feels. Imagine a secretary, used to work with KDE, working on a replacement machine and needs to start Mozilla in windowmaker
We should not see this as an attack on KDE of Gnome, but as a move to a common interface, at least for the non expert users. For the rest of us, we will keep starting several X servers with multiple window managers and compiling and packaging them from CVS.
I guess it's a corporate geek reflex that we do not like meddling with our software, but is general and widespread use (albeit eclectic with the best of the best) not the best recognition?
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
This appears to me to be a silly issue... who cares what redhat does ? those who really insist on choice and are willing to act upon it arent likely to be using redhat in the first place whats so bad about molding gnome and kde together in the new redhat release ? I think this is great, personally. I dont use redhat, rahter gentoo, and I have installed both gnome and kde (as well as fluxbox and enlightnment) each time I use one of them I need apps from the other, the single biggest problem confronting newbies using linux distros is finding out which programs are installed, wht they do, which ones are needed and how to execute them...if you install kde and gnome and run kde you may not even know that gnome is on your system, because gnome menus are not included in your kde desktop(gnome2 has kde menus) ....what this means is that your average newbie does not have a clue as to what he/she just installed on their machine, and more importantly WHERE these things are installed-this is where the menus come in-if stuff is not listed in the menus newbies arent going to find it, some for weeks, others for months, and some NEVER....molding kde and gnome together in temrs of themes and skins(under the surface totally different functionality) simply makes the learning curve for newbies much more appetizing...
finally I would love to see a tiny set of standard menu dialogs(file open,save,save as, close, print, edit,copy, paste, find etc.) written in Gtk+(gnome2) which are used universally in all X programs-gtk+ is much leaner than QT and has the best themeing I have ever seen...if one could put together a set of bindings which enables kde programmers to use the gtk+-bnased standard menus and seperate the standard menus into their own libraries so that compiled programs consiting of QT and gtk+ libraries are not redunantly copying the same functionality and producing massive executables...maybe some form of GTQ or qtk+-we really need a unified vfs system, standard menu files, a unified messaging/communications system-running ORBit2 frome gnome2 and the DCOM stuff from kde at the same time is OVERKILL and universal themeing----a reworking of gtk+ is probably more feasible than rewriting QT-perhaps a set of super-high level extremely abstract OO libraries could bind QT and gtk+ together in a way that endprogrammers would not have to worry to much about and from which endusers would profit....
They have no consistency, they're not userfriendly.
Are you an advanced user that needs all those stupid "features" ? Use the console !
Go RedHat !!
Color schemes DON'T work properly everywhere. That's one of the things that's broken about Linux. last time I checked KDE color schemes didn't affect GTK2 apps and vice versa. That said, KDE color schemes still work fine in Null.
On my system GNOME2 apps follow my KDE color scheme. Of course I do not use Redhat but SuSE.
Moritz
The GNOME camp believes the icons are KDE style.
The KDE camp believes the icons are GNOME style.Personally I think the icons are ugly and KDE style, but i'm a gnome user :=). Their metacity theme "Bluecurve" is very nice though.
However I think it's The Right Thing To Do, simply because it's better for the users - as a default. The user can always change it.
still reading?
Slashdot should rename the "Flamebait" moderation catagory to something more precise, and reflects it's (ab)use.
How about renaming "Flamebait" to "Wrong/Not My Thinking"?
Just a thought...
If I've read correctly the kde.dot text above, they re not complaining about the common look but about:
1/ red hat made the "about kde" entry in konqueror disappeared.
2/ red hat behaviour toward kde has always been disrecpectfull (they feel)
3/ 1/ + 2/ made them feel the changes were made to have kde disappear in terms of look and feel, and credits, in the redhat distro.
I think it's red hat's fault if they can't have a good relationship with a project they get a lot from, and if they get bad pr afterward.
(remember the linux expo pr fiasco (for red hat) between red hat and kde).
to Kiddie Desktop Enviroment? Or rumor central? The about box is there. None of this discussion was on the limbo mailing list (which is used for Null). All I see here is assumtion, and rumor. If the KDE camp wants to force a default look then they should change their license. If they have issues, they should ask questions on the proper mailing list for the RedHat beta they are testing. Not posting rumors that they got from IRC.
Get a free ipod.
.. this is wrong exactly why?
Red Hat gets a lot of shit for being GNOME-centric. It includes KDE, but granted have never really made that big of an effort of integrating KDE.
Now, how many distributions out there is KDE-centric? Just about everyone! SuSE, Mandrake, Caldera, Conectiva, etc..
Can someone then please tell me what is so wrong about there being a big GNOME-centric distribution? I'd love to know, because frankly I'm a misguided fool that thinks it's great that different distributions cater to different needs.
I'm a GNOME-user, and I love Red Hat for their work on GNOME, and their level of integration with it. Red Hat is the best distribution out there for me. If you are a KDE-user, then why not try out Mandrake, SuSE, Conectiva, etc..? They might be a better choice for you.
Actually, I think that the choice between the two desktops is good, and that (healthy) competition between them helps both of them improve.
Red Hat's idea sounds good in practise, but what I would like to see is the following:
a) A set of themes which make KDE and Gnome look and behave similarly (as similarly as possible, anyway);
AND
b) Some sort of unified control panel application which applies settings, themes, etc, to BOTH KDE and Gnome environments.
It should be possible to have a control panel application which detects which environment it's running under and uses the appropriate GUI toolkit - separation of program logic from GUI code and all that - even to detect at run-time whether both KDE and Gnome are installed.
Of course, both environments will not be identical. But the differences between them could be minimised in this way.
I use KDE over Gnome for one reason only: with KDE I can easily remove all the desktop icons (the "home" and "trash" icons) and have a completely clean look. I have never found a way to do this in Gnome wihtout removing the desktop alltogether. Is there a way to do this in Gnome?
fools!
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=1, Informative=1, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=4
What is with the trend towards soft-edged, rounded, muted icons, windows and menus?
Everything reminds me of "Barney the Dinosaur" and other 2-year-old soft-n-cuddly, non-offensive, no-sharp-edges T.V. shows.
Ugh!
I hope RedHat just "unified" everything, and it can all be changed with a theme.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
You're right, but ...
Vim is better than Emacs
Java is a dead buzzword
You're tight again
PHP is far too slow
You're right again.
Python is for hippies
Again, you're a moron.
*BSD is dying, OS X is just eyecandy
But here you are right again.
Mozilla is a buggy piece of shit
That's stupid.
spaces are better than tabs
The final point is correct.
So, it seems to me you've let your brother/friend type every other sentence for you and one of you is normal, while the other is stupid idiotic moron.
Next time make a separate ./ account for you brother/friend.
Less is more !
Sounds to me like you're the zealot, friend.
People such as yourself are no longer in the cross-hairs of the folks making commercial-ready desktops. You talk about architecture as if an end user gives a rat's patootie about it. All they want is functionality and the ability to move from one app to the next without feeling like they have to re-learn everything first.
It looks to me like someone's actually thinking out of the techie/programmer box by starting to build/configure apps for end users. This is long overdue and should be applauded.
Luckilly, the people who still pointlessly try to keep the GNOME/KDE "war" alive are decreasing in number. It's over, buddy. Nobody won, so now there's cooperation. Deal with it.
(Why am I replying to an AC? Someone should slap me...)
Neither of them are different enough from each other for this whole topic to be even discussed in the first place.
For the record: I think that both GNOME and KDE are excellent desktop environments and will both help with getting Linux on the desktop.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Despite the fact that Linux is by its nature a better OS then MS, the bottom line it at some point users LEARNED to use their computer with Widnows since 99% of computers had/have it.
People who started with a Mac know Mac, people who use cash registers know cash registers and they all had to figure out how to get things done with what was put in front of them.
My wife uses my home linux box without any issues because it's what we have, but when friends visit, they wonder where the heck the Start menu is.
It seems you really "can't teach an old dog new tricks", you just have to make the new ones LOOK like the old ones...tragic.
Damn, you is stooopid. Do you really think that distributors want to install TWO desktops... TWO lots of code... TWO memory hogging sets of libraries? They may be making them look alike, but one is inevitably dying... and that is KDE - it's bloated and expensive for developers.
How then is the programmer to get his due?
End-user documentation, when present, must prominently give credit to both [COMPANY-NAME], the [SOFTWARE-NAME] software and its list of contributors, and likewise must include an associated reference to [WEBSITE NAME AND URL].
When an "About Box" or other primary user interface element which is routinely used by end-users to get version or status information about a graphical application constructed using this software, this user interface element must prominently give credit to [COMPANY-NAME], the [SOFTWARE-NAME] software and its list of contributors, and must also include a reference to [WEBSITE NAME AND URL].
C//
I downloaded (null) and am happy with it so far. It has the best fonts yet from Redhat. Nautilus is really getting good. I like the default desktop background. Most of the main applications just keep getting better.
Gnome2 is nice, the only problem I've had is that my 3 year old was playing with it and he changed the gnome panel somehow to the side of the screen instead of the bottom and upon reboot the gnome-panel repeatedly crashed.
I'm not sure what the save current settings option does when one logs out but I don't think it works right. There needs to be an easier way for people to totally restore the desktop to original default settings, especially when kids play with the desktop. The only way I know is to tar up files, delete user, add user, restore files.
Actually, I think this is a great suggestion for Redhat, let a bunch of young kids/pre-schoolers loose on the latest beta and see what happens!
One other problem I encountered had to do with printing. Null was the first Redhat I've tried that detected my printer (epson c80) during the install, however it did not get setup properly and automatically, the reboot sequence displayed Fail for lpd, no printer configured.
I'm not used to the menu names and placement yet, I think Redhat still has to do some refining here. Took me a while to find the services configuration tool, for example. Simplifying things, reducing options and confusion is a good idea for the desktop.
Keep up the good work Redhat. I've been using Redhat since version 4.2 and use RH7.3.X exclusively. From what I've seen of (null) it looks like the next version of Redhat should make significant inroads on the desktop.
Chip
Gimme my athena widgets!
//FIXME: Bad
Finally.... a useable Linux. I'm running it right now and it is waaaaaaaaaay good.
You are technically correct, the problem is that users want both technical interoperability and consisetncy, and Red Hat must be hearing this in spades, otherwise why would they be doing something that they know is virtually guaranteed to piss off a large number of both KDE and GNOME evangelists?
Both issues are problems that the Linux community is going to need to solve if average corporate Windows users are to be happy accepting Linux as an alternative.
Both issues are very pervasive. The consistency issue affects desktop UIs, app UIs, font handling, printing, system configuration, and I'm sure several others.
Interoperability still has a long way to go too. When I answer previous Windows users' document embedding questions by telling them that Linux has no consistent document embedding mechanism that works across all applications, they are typically pretty surprised.
For many of these users (primarily the ones just want to get their work done and don't have a technical interest in computers), their systems may crash less, but the interoperability and consistency problems make their overall experience less pleasant than it was with Windows. As long as this is the case, Linux has an uphill battle.
i dont run linux. Run a *BSD and install ONLY what you want. No more 2gb installs of *crap*
***There is no point in asking, you'll get no reply***
Kandalf the Dragon.
You know, I'd almost feel sorry for the KDE folk, except for their little habit of stealing the names of everything else and attaching a "K" to them.
That, and the fact that Null makes FSCKING SENSE.
Jesus H. Christ, now maybe I can help people install Linux without having to deal with the entire 'Oh my! Should I choose Gnome or KDE?" thing..
They don't seem to believe me when I tell them there's really no difference.
And you know what? There isn't. Both make X look pretty, come with a graphical file browser, and a bajillion apps.
Ooh! I won't have to explain the 'magic' behind the fact that you can run KDE apps in Gnome, or Gnome apps in KDE, either!
That's a great big plus, because newbies, for some reason, see KDE and Gnome as Microsoft and Apple. "Ye canna be runnin' thar apps on each other! S'impossible! Ye've th'devil in ya!"
Erm, in a word: Yay.
Hooray for the fact that someone is finally making an effort to provide a unified desktop instead of whipping out their dick and whining about how it is the sole savior of Linux on the desktop, when, frankly, it isn't.
Yay for the fact that RH isn't exactly forcing anyone to use Null, thereby preserving the sacred ideals of choice.
Boo for all the whiners from KDE and Gnome.
It's supposed to be able to return you to the exact state in terms of running applications. Are you sure that you've done this (from the Nautilus help manual):
And also upon MainMenu->Logout->SaveCurrentSetup is checked? I suspect that you need to take the actions above.
Have you tried using CUPS? It's worked perfectly for me when I switched from using the LPrng printing system. I also made sure that I had gimp-print and foomatic packages installed and it works very nicely. Try using the /usr/bin/redhat-switch-printer command to switch over to cups. (The RH redhat-switch-X commands work with a re-implementation of Debian's "alternatives" system).
The copyright information, full license agreement, and list of authors is still intact on every KDE application. I'm looking at it right now.
Konquerer 3.03, using KDE 3.0.3-2
Web browser, file manager
(c) 1999 - 2002, the Konqueror Developers
http://www.konqueror.org
Authors:
David Faure
faure@kde.org
developers (parts, I/Olib} and maintainer
[list of athors follows]
License agreement
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991
[rest of license follows]
That's because all this information in contained in the About Konqueror screen. About KDE is an advertisement for KDE. You can remove about KDE from every KDE app and still thank every author, display every license, and show every author. And that;s exactly what Red Hat have done.
1) All of Red Hat's KDE apps still include every copyright, every license, and every author's name. That's because they live in About [Application}. About KDE is basically an advertisement for KDE.
2) Some people feel Red Hat's behaviour has always been disrespectful, just as I'm sure there are KDE developers who have had issues with Debian changing things in their package to improve (in the distro makers eyes) the output. But these people, in both cases, are a minority. Look at what the developers in the post actually said - they're all overwhelmingly not fussed about Red Hat's actions. Likewise the only KDE developer here approves.
Mosfet of all people. You get into the debate.
No one could honestly give a fuck about what you think, you've displayed previously that your opinions are that of a child, and are nothing more than uninformed angry little sissy fits.
Grow the fuck up.
That's because they live in About [Application}. About KDE is basically an advertisement for KDE.
yes, and it would be a sign of respect to leave it there. Don't you think?
Look at what the developers in the post actually said
Yes, that's the reason of my post. They werent as infuriated as the news from slashdot tried to make them look.
Yet a real ressentment against rh exist in enough kde developper to have that kind of wrong news arrise. Try to check the incident with the rh pr man and the reactions that came from it.
All and all, kde developper are providing some free work. Respect and recognition is the least that should come from those who get anything from it.
I always praise kde or gnome people whenever I can. I always give credits where credits is due. I never transform another person work when unnecessary.
Why shouldnt rh?
Personally, I am often more interested in the human interface and inter-system interface features than the color scheme or button positioning, assuming that said features both give me the ability to position my crap where ever I want (and in whatever color I want) at a later time, and also lets me EASILY and quickly make my own widgets. I have seen some web portals that made some rather impressive strides in allowing clueless users to customize the content, format _AND_ presentation of their web pages, why shouldn't desktops allow this also?
= HAPPY DAY...so SHUT IT...
Is it part of Redhat's distro or can it be found somewhere else?? I like it and would like to find it. Thanks for your help.
Unifying by means of looking identical and stopping there is just silly: As long as the feel of apps is different, identically looking but differently feeling apps is even worse with respect to usability and learning curve, imho. ;-)
To my knowledge, but i'm no developer, luckily there already exists a collaboration between G and K aiming at unifying the functionality (mime-types, drag'n-drop, shortcuts, menu-experience etc). RH would be better off if they would support the collaboration instead of simply pasting everything with a big red brush.
If they do both, the better
Well if anything this shows how healthy the theme support is in either project. The fact that they can get near identical views is a good thing IMNSHO. While neither project may be satisfied they I imagine that many users (myself included) are satisfied. I've been debating building a theme pack (engine) similar to this as a deb. Set up your apps right and get a similar experience on Debian regardless of what WM/Desktop you're using. (Hmmm, wonder how many desktops you could "similarize")
Or they could add the tag (or at least a pop-up) in the main menu like "Mozilla (Web Browser)" and "Galeon (Web Browser)" and "Konqueror (Web Browser)" and "Links (Text mode web browser)" and give us all the choices, but clearly labeled. Personally, I like when applications have their own names, but agree that for new users it gets harder and harder to figure out which program does what.
I do not have a signature
You make it sound like KDE suddenly doesn't work anymore...dude, they removed a stupid little box that serves no useful purpose and changed the default theme. Oh God, run, KDE's broken to hell and back now...
tabs are always 8 horizontal units. You're talking about 4-space indentation.