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Microsoft foils Xbox hackers with new Config
randomizer9 writes was among several readers who noted that Microsoft has changed the configs on the XBox and really messed up the hackers who have been trying to coax the box into being divx players, linux boxes, microwave ovens, white noise generators and so on. Kinda doubt the conspiracy angle, but it certainly is annoying.
Give it time, the xbox hackers will work around it as is always the case.
They'll just make bigger modchips with bigger nails in them! Moohohaha haha haaha
...I bring you copyright infringement:
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Microsoft changes Xbox hardware
Microsoft has changed the internal configuration of the Xbox, a move intended to thwart hackers and lower manufacturing costs.
Word of the changes began spreading on sites devoted Xbox hacking, with some buyers of recently manufactured Xbox units complaining that mod chips designed for the original console won't work now. Microsoft Xbox spokeswoman Molly O'Donnell confirmed that the company had made minor changes to the console's configuration as part of ongoing efforts to "increase security and reduce overall costs."
O'Donnell declined to specify the specific changes but said they include measures intended to boost security. "They (Microsoft's Xbox hardware team) know the hacker stuff that's out there, and they're always trying to increase security," she said.
Contract manufacturer Flextronics' Xbox assembly plant in China has switched to the new configuration, and the Guadalajara, Mexico, plant that supplies Xbox units for North American consumption will make the change soon, O'Donnell said.
The newly configured units were first spotted in Australia, where Xbox hackers spotted slight changes to the main circuit board that likely will make it impossible to use current "mod chips"--add-ons that bypass security measures built into the hardware.
Hackers have embraced mod chips as a vehicle for running custom software, legally and illegally copied game discs, and imported games. Microsoft has tried several tactics to discourage such hacks.
The new configuration reportedly also uses a different type of BIOS, the basic software that controls the console's operation, and eliminates the fan that had been used to cool the console's custom Nvidia graphics processor.
An Australian hobbyist posting on the Xbox Hacker site said he tried all currently available mod chips on the new Xbox configuration and none worked.
Okay everybody, it's me - and I want my money back.
The REAL neal n bob
Some/most of the "white hat" hackers might like the additional challenge.
Besides, beating MS twice is better then once right?
www.oobersworld.com - For those that ride.
You, of all the people, are giving Microsoft benefit of the doubt?! Not had your coffee yet, Taco?
Nonsense. If *course* they made changes to the system to foil hackers (described as 'security' chances).
Even the article says "Microsoft has tried several tactics to discourage such hacks."
Microsoft has a *LONG* history of doing this sort of thing, going back to the Dr-Dos days. And, for them, it is a legal and legitimate response to a threat on their business model.
An arms race will ensue..
Let's see... MS updates their bios and changes some of their chips. Now the boxes can't be hacked. The next thing you know someone will post a story about how the new boxes can be hacked which will be followed by the horror that the next updates will defeat those hacks. Oh the humanity.
M$ is probably going to do this everytime they start a new production run. The end result however will be that they are going to end up with a whole series of slightly incompatable versions of the xbox. This will be a support nightmare for developers and will in turn lead to yet another buggy unstable M$ product that we all know and loath.
Because god forbid that we actually run custom software on a piece of hardware we supposedly 'own'..
Other choices of wording by PimpTacoDaddy might have been: ...
"broke open a can on their ass"
"smacked those bitches up"
"broke off some foot in that ass"
"pimped those hacker hoes"
Hey MS...do you even remeber that your fortunes are directly linked to the fact that your software runs on the worlds most cutomizable and hackable(in the good sense) hardware platform...hell you console is just a hack of that hardware platform....
get with the program who cares if people hack the XBox...stop pissing and moaning....perhaps you have the next big thing on your hands if you just let people play with it alittle.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
M$ needs to keep this up, mainly so they don't end up selling millions of $199.00 linux workstations to compete with their PC software!
I think that turning Xboxen into Linux workstations is a great idea, they would make good xterms.
Just wait until we can bood code without modifying the Xbox. The signed boot loader is a bear though.h
Don't look at me, it was only 15 words long when I wrote it. :)
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men... --Willy Wonka
It really *IS* a case of "It's not a bug-it's a security feature".
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
- adam
I really don't like the way the word "security" is being used to mean "preventing the owner of the system from using it as he sees fit."
In my mind security means only letting the owner use the system as he sees fit.
-Peter
What the "hackers" really need to do is make use of undocumented features in ways that every home user will want to use. Then Microsoft wouldn't dare remove them -- I remember this happening several times in the old days of the Palm Pilot (Remember all those *Hack programs?)
it wont take the homebrew-guys more than 2 weeks to fix this. And, since the new modchips are flashable anyways, easy going for the end users... --- XBox Legacy - All the info you need http://xboxlegacy.com/
From news.com:
"O'Donnell (MS X-Box Spokeswoman)declined to specify the specific changes but said they include measures intended to boost security. "They (Microsoft's Xbox hardware team) know the hacker stuff that's out there, and they're always trying to increase security," she said. "
With that in mind it is easy to see that MS does not want anyone but MS makeing changes to the Xbox. Sounds like more closed source to me.
Well, is the X-Box going to get significantly cheaper before the next run comes out?
Is this just Microsoft's way of getting Linux lovers to buy their X-Boxen for Christmas, instead of waiting and getting one that might not run Tux Racer?
The X-Box isn't even out here (New Zealand) yet. Two weeks away. Maybe they have a great worry that if they release them here, we'll make some great break-through in modding and influence the rest of the world..
a href="http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php ?thread_id=1095875&forum_id=9486">here
I noticed that this modification by M$ also disables the fan on the nVidia graphics card in the XBox.
Now, I'm not sure which card it is, but most modern nVidia cards run pretty hot, and need cooling, so either, these cards are going to have to be underclocked, and so hit performance, or they're going to start overheating, and the machines crashing.
Won't that be unusual, Windows 'powered' machines dieing because of a hardware failure...
Listening for the sound of the coming rain...
The "hacks" encourage adoption of a console, so in the long run, the best thing to do is to make it difficult, but not impossible to chip and mod.
Is the PS1 wasn't able to be chipped, do you think it would've become the dominant console? I don't think so.
The more people who buy XBox consoles, the greater numbers Microsoft can report (and they're bound to be inflated as it is). The XBox is a joke in the technical sense, but part of a much broader plan for future industry climates. Things are bad enough as it is -- stop supporting Microsoft further.
I might have bought an XBox if I could use it as a general purpose entertainment device. Now I won't buy one at all. That's an odd way of moving units and increasing your market share.
I don't think it's that insightful, but people buy stuff if they like what they can do with it. Nobody that I'm aware of has a black market XBox manufacturing plant - every piece of hardware is purchased through Microsoft. Nobody that I'm aware of without an XBox is buying XBox games. If I can't get my hypothetical XBox hacked, I'm not buying one, and I'm sure as hell not buying an XBox game or dozen.
Taco doubting a M$ conspiracy? At least I know why my submission got canned. CNN is reporting that the M$ may be having second thoughts on the Xbox. They are resorting to buying gaming companies to get titles for the Xbox. These things are going to make nice little Linux boxen in a year or two.
and play your DivX, VCD's run Linux etc etc. Sure it's fun to hack the XBox, but if Microsoft insists on playing idiot games, let them. Just get a PS2..
Hmm... Microsoft has made the XBOX unable to run homebrew titles, linux, whatever.... Maybe we should just stop BUYING them. That would show em.
How long until we see this headline "Hackers foil Microsoft's "new Config" with new Modchip"?
Whatever happened to buying an XBox to play XBox?
Trying is the first step towards failure.
I really Like what M$ did, so, on this way this people will stop to try copying them and be more creative and don't give money away buying M$ consoles.
why don't they work with PlayStation which has a linux kit?
"Contract manufacturer Flextronics' Xbox assembly plant in China has switched to the new configuration, and the Guadalajara, Mexico, plant that supplies Xbox units for North American consumption will make the change soon, O'Donnell said."
So here, Microsoft, the epitome of American free market capitalism, is manufacturing their XBox in Communist China, where there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of association, and political repression is an everyday occurence. I guess having near slaves manufacturing your products is certainly cost effective?
And this is the Microsoft who intimates that free software is somehow communist and anti-American?
I assume the Randians, libertarians and conservatives on this board will now berate Microsoft for getting in bed with the statists and communists.
I anxiously await your righteous indignation.
There are two types of people; those who divide people into two types of people, and those who don't.
yet another buggy unstable M$ product that we all know and loath.
Oh, we all do, do we?
Could the X-Box be a prototype for Palladium/DRM-secure hardware?
... enough of conspiracy theories for one day...
They release a product that they consider secure(the v1.0 X-Box), let the public pry away at it for a while, knowing the hacking consoles(especially with one as tasty as the X-Box) is an already established industry.
Then, once it is hacked to a reasonable level, they revise the hardware to be more secure...
Shake well, repeat...
Basically, MS gets a free hacking team to test (fanatically) their security systems... The only negative point is that some of the hackers release how they did it to the public.
All of the knowledge/experience that they gain from this security cycle will go directly into their security model for DRM "secure" PC hardware...
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
O'Donnell declined to specify the specific changes but said they include measures intended to boost security. "They (Microsoft's Xbox hardware team) know the hacker stuff that's out there, and they're always trying to increase security," she said.
Secure from whom? Secure from consumers. Secure from people doing what they want with the hardware they buy. This trend will get worse.
Please stop buying this product, Slashdotters. Please discourage others from buying it. If people stop buying it, then Microsoft will stop holding the good games hostage and competition will stay alive in the console market. Microsoft will get out of your living room. We don't need a mandated corporate bully in our HOMES for god's sake.
The games simply can't be so good that you're willing to trade all future choice in gaming and home entertainment for a few plays today.
The thread the article mentions can be found here for those that are interested. There's links to pictures of the new Xbox motherboard too. Sounds like all that's needed is a few tweaks to the hacked BIOS image and everyone will be back in business. My bet is that any new protection will be defeated before the new units even appear in stores in North America. Sometimes I wonder why Microsoft even bothers.
By changing the configuration of the X-Box Microsoft looses this advantage: Now developers will have to test their games on X-Box 1.0, X-Box 1.0a, X-Box 1.1, etc.
I'm convinced that Microsoft management deliberately avoids placing architecture discipline on developers. They understand that it is in Microsoft's interest for all of their API's to be moving targets. As long as they remain reasonably dominant, this benefits them in many ways.
The organizations that choose to go with Microsoft find that basically all of their time is spent running to keep up with the latest (and/or running to stay in the same place). You can't just develop for a Microsoft environment and forget it. You pay X work-years in development time, but you then (subscription model, anyone?) have to pay, oh, 0.3X work-years PER YEAR in maintenance time just to keep up with things that get broken by new service packs, new releases, etc.
If you listen to people who live in the Microsoft-dominated world, you constantly hear them using phrases like "PORTING our software from Windows 2000 to Windows XP." And this constant "porting" doesn't leave them enough time to even THINK ABOUT supporting non-MS products.
Another benefit of this is that as the API's not only change but constantly become more complex, the work required to keep up with them gradually becomes too much for small companies to keep up with, which helps Microsoft keep control. More and more, the only players are companies that are large enough for Microsoft to be able to control them at the business-deal level.
The nice thing about all this is that nobody has to issue any smoking-gun memos. It's not NECESSARY to say in writing, or even verbally, "the job's not done 'till Lotus won't run." All they need to do is NOT tell their engineers to be scrupulous about backward compatibility and it all happens automatically.
where there's a damn about to burst, and it keeps springing leaks. All they do is stick their fingers in the leaks... eventually, they run out of fingers, and start using toes. Then the toes run out.
Eventually Microsoft will run out of digits (as in the fingers & toes). If you want to keep a system secure, you can't be reactionary. You can't wait for a leak to spring up, and then stick a finger in it.
And that's part of the whole problem with the MS culture - it's not a problem until it's exploited. Then you fix it. This is the best reason I can give you as to why not to use MS products. 'Cause they don't give a fuck until something's seriously broken. And then, it's too damn late.
-- james
Hey MS...do you even remeber that your fortunes are directly linked to the fact that your software runs on the worlds most cutomizable and hackable(in the good sense) hardware platform...hell you console is just a hack of that hardware platform...
Not quite. Keep in mind that the Xbox is sold at a loss, with gains realized on the sales of games and accessories. Every Xbox sold for hacking around would not generate the income to cover the cost of the console itself. In this case, its understandable that they would do this to discourage further losses.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
You're kidding right? Sure they want to make it cheaper, but they are really worried that someone will turn it into something else (a Linux box, for example).
If that happens on a large scale they're really in trouble.
Oh well, seems clear I won't be buying one now! (until it's worked around at least)
Microsoft doesn't want any operating that work as equal to or better than a MS OS. Remember they are not trying to take over the hardware market. They are only starting to sale hardware in every single market that exists. I think the Monopolists of early years called diversifying, or in modern vernacular MSifing.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
No trolling, no kidding.
If Microsoft makes the proof they have a product that is sufficiently secured that only microsoft can allow a software to run on it, then they may convince hollywood to sell (or rent) films othr XBox live!.
First, that would be a premiere.
Second, that would be the future (no more DVD rent)
Third, this would be the first real step against software piracy, if only the price of software other XBOx live could be really honest
I don't like microsoft, but don't like software piracy either. I see a great potential in the XBox, but not only in video games.
But to show the potential of the XBox and XBox Live!, microsoft must prevent any foreign piece of software to run on the box.
anyway, dude read the article:
"increase security and reduce overall costs." O'Donnell declined to specify the specific changes but said they include measures intended to boost security. "They (Microsoft's Xbox hardware team) know the hacker stuff that's out there, and they're always trying to increase security," she said.
it's obvious that their just increasing the security, you know, so it's like more secure and stuff. this is a good thing i think the micro$oft spokesbot says that somewhere, "this is a good thing, security is good" i believe were the words... i think i'm going to buy an xbox or two as soon as it's more secure, they will obviously be much better than the one i already have (ie: more secure)!
-tid242
With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan
What a wonderful resource Microsoft had. They still have them, but they're being driven off. Not only were these people spending their own money to buy hardware and extra equipment, but they were spending their own free time 'hacking' the XBox system. But to what end? Microsoft had a team of freelance developers ready to come up with hundreds of solutions to godknows how many bugs. Some already had! Instead, while nitpicking to solve one 'security' issue - the hackers themselves - Microsoft has denied themselves the benefits of allowing the open source community hacks at the system. It's not like it's a matter of company security, or their profits might be compromised (maybe slightly, due to modchipping and such - but people still have to buy the damned system itself in the first place, no?). God forbid someone actually do something they want with something they buy. The console is not property of Microsoft anymore, it's property of the man or woman who bought it from the distributor (then again, knowing Microsoft's crafty uses of EULAs, there's probably a clause saying that it's only a rented machine).
;) "This programmer is being beaten to death!" - "This isn't a game, Gary! This is the real world. And when you kill people in the real world, they die. And in the real world, you're fscked!".
It's a game, isn't it? (Game console, rather, but you get the idea). And games are supposed to be fun, no? Some people find 'hacking' fun. I'm one of them. What Microsoft has done in terms of this, is no fun. The XBox is a half-decent machine. I think it's badly designed, myself, and a waste of good hardware, but that's just one student's opinion. It has potential, and the open source community has the drive and will to unleash every aspect of that, but the facist powerholder, Microsoft, is denying themselves possible further profit from this, not that it would matter entirely, anyway.
Let's think about something else, though, shall we? Perhaps Microsoft IS tapping the power of open-sourcity (new word! yay!) by reading changes made in it's software, and shipping them back off to the Microsoft servers which apply the BIOS 'upgrades'. Yep, instead of openly cooperating, they may be stealing your work. Ever seen the movie AntiTrust?
Right. I'll just shut up, now. Sorry, guys.
Informatus Technologicus
The companies who make games for the XBox care. They don't really like it when people are able to play illegal copies of their games, and if MS can change a little here and a little there to temporarily fix the problem that's great. There is alot of hard work and money put into game development and all MS is trying to do is protect the game producers. Everyone knows the new versions will get hacked, but they feel like they have to do something to protect the single biggest reason why they even make the console.
Hell with it. I've heard too many stories from people in my area who have had problems with theirs, and they're not even trying to hack the damn thing. Honestly, none of them are smart enough. But I digress.
What I'm planning on doing is waiting until MS forgets about the XBox (after they've released their next-gen stuff). They did it with Windows 95 and will soon with 98 in favor of XP. When this happens, XBoxes will go up for sale on the second hand market. And those are numbers MS can't claim. Once they go second hand, I'll get one and hack the living daylights out of it. By that time, hackers should have ways of getting around all of MS' so called "security features" and putting Linux on there with relative ease.
Take pictures of it running Mandrake or something, playing Tux Racer or maybe a hacked version of Halo, send them to MS' customer service department or whichever department will take user feedback. Shine them off all nice like.
Now more than ever, I'm closer to buying a PS2. With FFXI on the horizon and this new Kingdom Hearts coming out soon, I'm jumping on the competition's bandwagon.
Ultimately, we're the ones who will decide the XBox's fate. Let's wait till the XBox either fails or the next-gen stuff hits, then worry about modding the hell out of it. MS is setting themselves up for a huge fall. And when it happens, I'll be one of the millions standing, pointing and laughing. Long Live Freedom of Choice.
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
I was considering it, but now they've persuaded me not to. Nice Strategy, Microsoft!
If only Sega developed the Xbox, they wouldn't give a rat's ass what people do to their systems!
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
In my mind security means only letting the owner use the system as he sees fit.
You mean..
In my mind security means letting only the owner use the system as he sees fit.
..right? The latter is my idea of security, the former is barely secure at all.
YAGN
Once again Micro$oft shoots itself in the foot...
;) Mind you, it's not as if M$ needs more money :P
nuthing unusual...
The way I see it:
More mod-chips + more (home-brew) software
==
more sales
(and I got the impression they REALLY need that, coz the freakin' things are not selling - so I hear anyway
But the way Micro$oft (probably) sees it:
Denying mod-chips & denying home-brew software
==
control of market +
control of product quality +
control of product image
Especially the latter two where probably foremost on their mind when they changed the configuration.
(Don't buy their 'security' story,
M$ != security..ever (:^)
The question is then: how has M$ marketed the X-Box?
Did/Do they go the Nintendo way -> release only a handful of very high-quality games?
(in which case M$ attempts to control the market make sense...)
or are they like Sony with their PlayStations?
(IMHO a quick glance at the games released for these systems indicate that Sony cares not for the quality of their games, only for quantity, lotsa crap available - will probably not use that strategy with the PS2 though...initially)
Oh well...time will tell. Sufficient to say that M$ has the odds stacked against it in the console market, and this is...eh...not going to help them...i think.
"There can be only one..."
Well, it does these days, anyway. At current prices, and with chips getting cheaper, MS is probably making back the cost of the hardware on this run- but that doesn't cover R&D and marketing.
They make *that* back (and then some) selling licenses to developers, who go out and sell a lot of games. Sony ate piracy to get mindshare away from Sega and Nintendo; MS really just wants your buck in the end, and maybe a li'l street cred for "innovation."
So... Pirated games = less license revenue rolling into the console designer. The console designer spends millions on locking-down the console to prevent pirated games, which leads to higher R&D costs to recoup, which leads to a greater need to avoid piracy...
It's the Netpliance business model. Unfortunately, Netpliance had a niche- it was the perfect product for my grandmother- whereas Nintendo, Sony, and until recently Sega, still do a better job at providing 'fun' than MS. In fact, if MS hadn't "stolen" NVidia, there's little doubt that some 'real' console maker would've forged an alliance.
just make a ModChipBusterBuster
I know they lose about $30-90 on each unit they sell, but now with more modded units they put more R&D into making the new Bios, changing routines, code, etc. Like everyone else says, more time and the hackers will beat this, it just puts them one step back.
Relive the BBS Past - One Byte at a Time! www.ssabbs.com
I find it depressing that GNU/Linux hackers are paying Microsoft money to get XBoxen and port the OS to it. Now Microsoft has rendered their efforts futile. Guess what - their efforts were futile to begin with. Why not develop a good substitute for MS Exchange so corporate customers have a good reason to switch? Why not do ANYTHING rather than focus on a project that has no useful outcome, all the while pumping money into Microsoft with each XBox purchase? It would be equally useful to write Microsoft a check for the cost of an XBox and spend some time watching TV instead.
Right now, it is obvious that M$ is trying to prevent hackers from opening up a "pandora's box" of sorts with the X-box. I bet ole billy could care less if the box is used to play divx movies. I bet he could care less if it used as a gateway. To him, it would be positive because that means more boxes sold. However, with a flip of the coin, with the same "security" features unlocked, the console could then run pirated games. That would be a nightmare for M$ who spent millions developing the system and are trying to get it back with games. Its a simple game of cat and mouse really. We all knew this would happen eventually
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
MSFT used to be good on marketing platforms. What happened to them?
Oh what, incompatible like the original Sony PlayStation, with 9+ revisions?
Xbox is probably containing the exact same technology as Palladium and this is testing ground for the PC version. Thus its of vital importance for MS to show that its unhackable to keep support from music/movie industry on palladium.
If it shows that Palladium is just another dongle and fail as DRM its going to dissapear.
HTTP/1.1 400
Wouldn't it be in Microsoft's best interrest if the unit was "hackable" ? They would have a larger base of loyal users and probably atract a few trough some "killer app" add-on or such. Of course I can see not acknowledging the hacking or supporting it, but TiVo has managed to build quite a following for its PVR by allowing customer modifications to go on with little resistance. wouldn't X-Box reap similar benifits?
The whole point of a console like the X-Box is that they have complete control over what they can do with it. Why on earth should they care if or if not someone uses the box to run something else on?
Face it guys, the reason the changed something was because they wanted to, and they don't give a shit about caring for the X-Box hackers compatibility. And, might I add, they shouldn't do so. If you want a PC, buy a PC - an X-Box is not a general purpose machine.
I can't stand MS anymore than most others here, but this story is absolute bullshit. Fight them where the battle is at, not just everywhere.
This may cause a run on the older XBoxes. I wouldn't be surprised if an enterprising fellow were to buy up older Xboxes and sell them on e-bay for higher than what the new Xboxes will cost.
Or they could just set up an exchange center: Trade in your old Xbox for a new one!
Oh that's horrible. You can't use their game console for doing anything other than playing games. That's terrible! I want a refund, especially since I just got an Xbox for free for signing up for Speakeasy's DSL. Damnit! I'm mad! I should have bought that PS2 so I could have yet another dedicated GTA3 machine.
Sony has done this forever... the PSX had several iterations designed to break the modchips.
They are trying to stop modchips... not Linux installs.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
This is such a stupid friggen argument. If I really want to play xbox box games I am going to buy and use an xbox (and games), if I want to buy an xbox to hack around with I am going to buy the xbox and hack with it. If I cant hack my xbox ***I WONT BUY ONE***, nobody buys an xbox to play the platform games and then decides 'hey I dont want to play these games anymore because I can hack it'.
Buy an Xbox, buy Tony Hawk Pro Skateboarder 2x, and STFU
Protecting their X-boxen from mods is one thing, but hasn't Microsoft spent enough $ on this?
When your product is in a bit of a financial trouble, common sense would dictate that it's not a great idea to throw away even more money on it when it hasn't shown too much evidence of a potential profit.
/*drunk.. fix later*/
Maybe Microsoft is just playing with the hackers. How else would microsoft generate interest with the penguin-heads? If they pretend that they get really offended when someone hacks their little black box, more anti-Microsoft hackers will buy one to get in on it. What other company can convince people that they are getting screwing when people purchase their product?
The first web page with detailed instructions on "How to hack the XBox MkII" has just been by M. Joe Schmoe, of Peoria, Ill.
Film at 11.
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
If memory serves, Sony made iterative changes to the PS1 over the course of its run, which negated mod chips that worked in earlier 'generations'. I believe the same is true with the PS2, but someone can confirm or deny that for me. Anyway, hey it's within their rights as the developers of the hardware to discourage what they perceive is hacking. It's also within our rights as consumers to be able to work around anything they do. :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
There are two presumptions here:
1: That the changes really are only on the hardware backend, and don't really affect games currently marketed and in development. Sometimes hardware/software interactions can be quite subtle, and don't act the way you expected.
2: That some customers don't choose and buy a game box precisely *because* it can be 'chipped. At the moment, I don't own a DVD player. But whenever I do choose to get one, it *will* be one that can be and has been readily 'chipped.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
you're implying that because they sell crippled hardware that they should be able to control what you do with it thereafter. If I buy a CD player, am I only able to buy one label or band or independent record store or so on's music? absolutely not! Hacking an xbox to run Linux is nothing more than a legitimate modification to what is essentially a computer, and as it is owned by you, your property to modify as you see fit. This is no different from me dropping a Cobra engine in my Crown Victoria because I choose to do so.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
The real question:
Does any of this effect DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball??!?
Maybe what MS should do is release at-a-profit box that is already hacked to be a pseudo PC that can play XBox games? Install whatever OS you'd want on it, etc., and MS still recupes a small profit.
Sure, they'd not get money on the games, but then again, those who want an XBox solely for the games will probably want the cheaper XBox anyways.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
What is going to be the result of removing the fan from the nVidia chip? Now, most of my expereince is with some seriously thermal video cards, but wouldn't the loss of a fan on this chip mean risking a meltdown?
The average gamer doesn't exactly treat their console like the computer it actually is, so there's a good chance the system might overheat and burn nice holes in the carpet, ne?
Okay, Microsoft loses something obscene on every Xbox (what is it, like, 75 or so?) and they make that back with the games (I think it takes 12 games to equal that out, again, this is from memory, so it might not be quite right). When someone buys an XBox with no intent to buy games (or maybe very little intent, even) it HURTS their sales and they LOSE money. Granted, a "true buyer" might not get 12 games, but at least they arent truly hurting the bottom line.
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
If you ask me it is all a waste of time. The new "more secure" boxes will be hacked and you will see a new generation of mod chips making every dime spend on the "research and secure" team a waste. Nothing is hack proof. All they do is delay the inevitable.
When companies "fights back" with this kind of tactic, it does not bother me one bit. It is similar to what DirecTV does to the hackers. They try to compete in a match of minds, not litigation.
The hackers find ways around MS' defenses, and MS counterattacks by changing their board layout. Of course, MS is on the defensive, since it takes them a while to get the new board in the line, but when it happens, all the old attack methods are rendered ineffective. On the other hand, if they had a way to change software around on the cusomers' units...
I say bravo to MS, for not fighting this in the courts, but instead in the field.
What does M$ gain by "out-modding the modders"?
Height: 38U, Weight: 0 Newtons, Eyes: #0000FF, OS: Gray Matter 1.0 (Alpha)
personal pleasure device? I guess not, but then again M$ does not specialize in pleasure of any type
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Sony and Nintendo revise their hardware too.
After reading this topic, I have to confess to feeling a little uncomfortable. Most likely it's because of the sudden urge to defend Microsoft here when all rational thought say not to, but here goes anyway.
1. As far as the changes go, all systems evolve and change as time goes on. Video game systems are no exception. When I was deciding on what videogame systems to get last year, I decided to get Gamecube and PS2. PS2 was established already and wasn't a real decision on how to go about purchasing it. I would go to the local video game store and make the purchase. Easy.
The Gamecube though was different. I didn't know how availability would be in the US and the big consideration was "hey, maybe I should import". Was it because I'd be able to get the games earlier? Yes and no. It factored in, but the real reason was that console hackers will all tell you one thing: get the system's first release. The original PS2 in Japan had region lockouts easily disabled. I believe that the early Saturns were the easy to Mod ones.
This isn't really shocking. Console modding is 50% staying one step ahead of the console maker.
2. Doesn't Microsoft have a generally good track record hardware-wise? Say what you will about the XBox, but it's certainly a pretty system when played (huge and strangely designed, but pretty). I've generally enjoyed a reasonable amount of reliability from Microsoft mice and joysticks. I don't know how it's been for anyone else.
Sorry. Just needed to get that out.
"If the good lord had intended us to walk, he wouldn't have invented roller skates." -Willy Wonka
Console hardware selling below cost is a myth. Almost all consoles sell at a profit. Every console ever sold has turned at least a slight profit, with a few exceptions:
To get a jumpstart, Nintendo apparently accepted a *small* loss on early Gamecubes. They very quickly fixed this problem though, through reduction of manufacturing costs. They did NOT want to sell below cost if at all possible, and it is NOT standard company policy. (Nintendo quickly fixed things to make a tidy profit on GCs, even after price drops.)
The only exception is Xbox - The Xbox is the ONLY console that was pretty much designed with the assumption that it would be sold below cost. It started below cost, still sells below cost, and according to most analysis, will never sell at anything below cost because the Xbox design is inherently not as conducive to cost reduction as the Gamecube/PS2/etc. (For example, Sony eventually took 2-3 chips from the PS2 and merged them into one, significantly reducing manufacturing costs.) Because almost all Xbox parts are sourced from third parties, MS doesn't have nearly as much flexibility in this regard.
The only thing MS has going for it in this case is the fact that their initial development costs were probably much less than for the GC or PS2. People seem to leave this out of the analysis.
Nonetheless, any Xbox that is sold and not used with licensed games is a losing proposition for MS. For Sony and Nintendo, it isn't, although it's not nearly as desirable as having the boxes used for cash-cow game sales.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
and Microsoft needs to sell games to make up for the lost money on the console.
I'm just waiting for the time when they make one of these changes and it makes it impossible to play your legally obtained, native XBox games completely inoperable.
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
Microsoft is estimated to lose anywhere from $76 to $150 on each Xbox which retails for $199 in the United States and around 249 euros in Europe.
So, they wan't you to buy the games, not the box and hack it to run Linux or your toaster.
i dont find modding xboxen any different than hot rodding your honda civic. seems to me that microslut would be happy that ppl are taking there products and playing with them. that means two things in the long run.
1. people are buying their product and most likely breaking parts and/or modding parts and having to purchase replacements (look at all the specialty parts for cars that are available now)
2. "hackers" may find another use for them and create another niche market that M$ could hold completely (although this would be a bad thing) but it would mean more money
but just think about what it would be like if honda or some other car company didnt want people to trick out their vehicles. the average everyday person would be up in arms over it. but when it comes to computers people hear the word hackers and crawl under the bed and whimper and beg uncle gates to save them.
huh? this is so NOT true, i don't know where to begin... I would say more, but i've got to go port some apps from windows 2000 service pack 2 to service pack 3... right...
I remember when I got my C64 and found they had included the schematics of it in the back of the manual. Shame they don't do that anymore ... could be nice for a company to make hardware and say "Here it is!" "Here's how it works" "Off you go and make cool stuff for it!"
Ah well, big business rules I guess.
Unfortunately that wouldn't work well I would think....the cummunity would always fell the 200+ dollar probable price difference was a ripoff...
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
From the article:
O'Donnell declined to specify the specific changes but said they include measures intended to boost security. "They (Microsoft's Xbox hardware team) know the hacker stuff that's out there, and they're always trying to increase security," she said.
Obviously, Microsoft abuses the fact that the public thinks "hacking" is breaking into systems, while the hackers here don't really have anything to do with cracking.
Perhaps the hacker's community should thing of changing their name, since these things can be really bad for our image.
The battle IS everywhere. Maybe you didn't notice, but MSFT has its fingers in many pies. The idea is to get consumers to think MS == The Internet / Computers / Entertainment / etc...
The thing I find ironic is who are the people MS spends most of its time fighting? Developers! Developers! Developers!
This is a VA Linux site.
You're correct, but the previous argument wasn't stupid. The issue is if you want to buy an XBOX and hack it and not play games on it then Microsoft doesn't want you to buy one. They lose money when they sell it to you.
Non gratis rodentus anus
Ya, the HP desktop I'm forced to use at work uses passive cooling on the CPU.
The P.O.S. locks up every day due to overheating. Some f%^&ing cooling system. Give me a noisy fan and the resulting stable hardware anyday, thanks. :-)
People expect consoles to be dependable, I don't think a crashing console will be tolerated as well as a crashing PC is. MS needs to rethink this one. Is a $0.50 USD fan per unit worth the PR hit from a console that locks up? Especially when MS is trying to establish themselves in the console market...
Murphy was an optimist.
doubt the conspiricy?
when will you learn? how much does it take for it to finally sink in? micorsoft is hell bent on controlling your life. they are big brother in the making.
boycott now or forever will they control you.
do not buy another microsoft product!
:T:R:A:N:S:
So making a product more secure/solid is alienating hackers?
Taco mightn't be Slashdot's greatest Troll, but he certainly is the loudest.
I am a Karma Library.
This situation has a sweet kind of irony to it. And you can see why MS would want to put a stop to it.
If they can make the box unhackable, then fair play to them. It's their box, they can make it as they see fit.
If they fail, and the box is used as a cheap Linux box to the point that they can't make money on it, then it will be proof that the cheap box, expensive games business model doesn't work any more. This may or may not be bad news for the kids who want consoles for Christmas, depending on how the alternative expensive box, cheap games model works out.
What would be bad, is if MS try and push through dodgy legislation to stop people hacking their boxes in order to support a flawed business model. Sounds familiar?
The X-Box should have been called the Y-Box, as in..
"Why, Microsoft?"
"Why should I want one?"
Would it be posible to run unsigned code by exploating buffer overflows in popular XBox games and demos? I doubt that the game programmers took any effort to check their savegame loading code for potential buffer overflows. Once unsigned code is run it can take over the system (AFAIK the XBOX kerbel is a stripped down NT without any memory protection) and for instance run Linux. This would still require you to take out the harddrive to store the troyan savegame in it but Microsoft will not be able to do anything to prevent this.
I'm sure microsoft should start listening to you for their financial future.
Microsoft didn't wake up one day and say, "hey we should make a hackable system and sell it for less than cost!" That way NEBWBIE and the other 0.05% of the market will buy it! Just think of the $250,000 we can lose!
If you want a hackable system, go buy a computer. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ohhh, you can't find one under cost? I wonder why they're not giving them out for free! Just think of all the money someone could make doing that!
Go make a system. Buy a microATX board, and make a small hackable system. Lots of fun.
And last but not least, there is nothing stopping you from hacking your old xbox. There's nothing to keep you from trying to hack a new xbox.
Companies have been dipping their chips in epoxy for decades.
First it was easy to make a computer from an I-Opener.
Then they changed the BIOS
Then placed glue over IDE pins and BIOS
And then out of bussines... Opps!
With everything that they know now, the X-Box hackers won't take long to figure out a way to do this. It's always been this way with all consoles. Someone always finds a way.
Microsoft may have a lot of money, but they aren't going to keep modifying their manufacturing facilities unless it means saving money on production. I doubt that they are going to churn out a drastically different X-Box every month in order to thwart hacks...
Frankly I don't understand why this should be a problem. I think Microsoft has to be seen that they're doing something to encourage game companies to develop for it. At the same time, suppose i buy this Xbox and being a hacker I try a hand at loading linux on it. Fine, now I've got an Xbox game console + Linux computer. If I can hack it's DVD region checks I'll be happier and if I'm happier I'll tell my friends who'll also buy other X-Boxes.
At a certain point, you get out of the geek circle who want to do stuff like run linux and these people start buying games. This will make game companies sit up and take notice and pretty soon...bang.... the fierce war between sony and MS becomes more cutthroat!
---
I think that Linux and open source fanatics should put their money where their mouths are. Instead of complaining about Microsoft's "modifications" to the XBox, why not put together a spec for an open gaming platform?
That way everyone could pool their efforts to make the most hackable, mod-friendly gaming platform in existance. Just adopt a spec and require manufacturers to stick to it. Make a hardware-friendly gaming disto and require compliance. Of course the initial cost would be high, but soon enough alll those teens would be begging mom and dad for one for Christmas / Birthday / whatever.
Does anyone know of any efforts along these lines?
Just because M$ has a shitty buisness model for the X-BOx does not make me theif for hacking it..
This conspiracy stuff is complete nonsense. I don't want to defend Microsoft necessarily and I believe in ownership, but, it is very well documented that Microsoft (and Sony and Nintendo) lose money on their hardware. Software piracy aside MS has the most to lose by allowing or looking the other way on people hacking the X-Box. Their machine is the new kid on the block and if anyone at MS reads this site then it becomes apparent to them that their sales would go through the roof on hardware if it was "open" or easily hackable but their software sales would climb marginally. How many people here would buy one just to put linux on it? Plenty, it seems. I use linux, made the switch 2 months ago and love it. Every time I boot into windows or read more about DRM I get more and more annoyed at MS, however, I can't fault the company for protecting its interests. Fair-use is one thing, but for them to make it easy to install an OS onto the X-Box and avoid buying any of their software is suicide in the market place. For all the people that whine that its a conspiracy or that it isn't easy to hack I don't hear many people come up with an open source solution. If you want to game and have a pc buy a computer. I'd be very interested in a movment to come up with a gaming OS design for specific hardware that could be purchased off the shelf and completely open. Why doesn't someone come up with that? A standard OS, standard components and completely open source. Perhaps a specific distro heavily modified as an entertainment OS. You go to a site, download an iso, go buy the specific hardware and build your box? It could have every emulator under the sun, support for, say, an all-in-wonder card, and if you have the right hardware the drivers are loaded automatically. This seems like a more reasonable solution than expecting Microsoft to portect your "right" to buy their hardware cheap and not help them to make any money off of it....just my 2 cents. -Nasty
Shut the hell up about your Karma. No one cares.
Consoles are sold at a loss because games are the money maker. So when people use their machine for something else, M$ loses money on the sale. I understand people who are obsessed and try to run Linux and Divx movies on their electronic bathroom scale, but if average people start using the XBox for non-gaming purposes, M$ will just raise the price on the next console to make sure that profitablility is ensured.
I support the idea of using a given product for more than it was intended, but if you don't really want to use it for the intended purpose, maybe you need to go out and invent a better item to do what you want.
For example, if I use duct tape to hold down a loose piece of paneling on my car, I've found an ingenious and cheap way to solve my problem. But, if I mod my XBox to do the same thing, I've really only managed to waste money.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I hope I am wrong. But should we expect something different for Mono ? Is microsoft not going to screw them when and if .Net and Mono get bigger ? I respect Miguel so much for what he did and does for Gnome. But from the announcement of Mono I always had a bad feeling. I DO NOT trust microsoft, and I think I have reasons why.
actually, I don't think they did piss and moan at all.
Someone else found out about it the hard way...and it wasn't because games quit working on it either.
(In Walmart)
Walmart-Guy: May I help you?
Me: I'd like to buy a toaster.
Walmart-Guy: Sure, we've got the X-Toaster right here for $50!
Me: A toaster for $50? What's so great about this toaster? The slots for the bread are razor thin.
Walmart-Guy: Well, you'll notice that you can get expansion slots for different sizes of X-Bread.
Me: What if I want to use my own bread?
Walmart-Guy: You can't use your own bread.... but it does a really great job of toasting with the latest thermal technology.
Me: Okay, I'll try it.
(At home...)
Me: After trying that crappy, hi-calorie, low-output, nausea-inducing XBread, I want to put my own bread in the toaster. All I need to do is fiddle with it...
I should just be able to make the slots bigger myself. Great Zok! I couldn't wedge the bread in here if I wanted to... and the thermal coil unit has no cooling device... and what's this DRM scanner doing in here? That explains why my regular bread wouldn't toast - if it can't find the digestable GUID-strip in the bread, it won't even toast!
Two weeks later the toaster explodes from a heating malfunction. Several "reboots" by using the toaster knob to toast the bread satisfactorily failed to address the problem with the toaster itself.
Moral of the story: Go back to Walmart, get a $199 Linux box and use it for Linux. Do not buy MS Bread or MS Toaster because it means they can make more MS Crap with it.
This space for rent.
I can see why you think the billion dollar company has a shitty business model.
They should really hire you for your insight before they go bankrupt tomorrow. Just think of the income they could have made by making their XBOX play free games for everyone.
My dad was just complaining the other day that he couldn't hack his XBOX into a cheap DVD player.
There was very little uproar over the price and licensing of the Yaroze when Sony brought this out, to be able to program and test out software that would eventually be submitted to Sony by independent publishers.
So why would selling a higher priced modified XBox be any different?
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
They sell a box to play games that they sell. The old box played those games, the new box played those games. I don't see what the problem is. The box still does everything it was advertised to do. If you want it to do something else, and it doesn't do it now, how is that their problem?
Seems the XBox hackers should come up with a EULA for their software that disallows Micro$oft from reverse engineering their reverse engineering.
The PS2 and XBox aren't that tightly integrated and have a bigger parts count. (Nintendo makes money on game console hardware while Sony and Microsoft don't. That's why.) But in the next generation, we should expect to see machines that are basically one big chip inside. This will be the end of modchips.
Yes, it's possible to open up an IC and modify it. The ATI/Nvidia article shows the millions of dollars of equipment needed. But even that doesn't help much. Now that everybody uses boot-time public/private key authentication, even opening up the chip won't get you the private key you'd need to make content that will load on an unmodified box. So far, no one has been able to get an unapproved program to load on an unmodified XBox.
There won't be backdoors. Read the license agreement for DVD decoder manufacturers.
The modders should and probably do expect this. It's the people buying the mods I don't understand. If you don't like what MS is doing, don't participate. Ok, I get the angle that if you buy and Xbox and never get more than one or two MS certified games, they lose money, but that just seems like a silly pursuit to me.
What I really wonder is how Sony and Nintendo will respond to this. We know about the Linux kits for PS/2, but is anyone doing anything interesting with them? Don't you think it would be good for them to join Apple and have a really open discussion about how to do DRM in a consumer friendly manner? The only way MS can win is if everyone else sits on their ass and lets it happen.
When I first started working in the early 80s I consciously steered away from IBM technology because I knew they had already peaked. History showed that this was true even though very few could see it. "Nobody was ever fired for buying big-blue systems" was ubiquitous just like the the attitudes that MS will steamroller everyone is today. Guess what, MS could be yesterday's news in five years. The pace of change is even faster now and the Gates empire is nothing compared to the old IBM, so this prediction isn't that way out.
Stop buying into their marketing, and don't try to play their game. It was already clear in the mid 80s that MS would compete relentlessly with the very software companies that made the platform popular in the first place. They have abused trust at every turn and will get what they deserve.
I'm sure they're having fun fucking with us, why don't we have some fun too? It's just a game, not a big evil conspiracy, sheesh. I remember back in highschool trying to crack savegame formats for games like M&MIII. It's loads of fun to try and beat the protections.
The problem is that $200 hardware from WalMart is exactly that -- $200. It's probably (now this is just a guess) full of cut rate components. Where as from numerous postings of its components across the net, we know that the X-box contains some pretty decent hardware. Also, it's being sold below cost (or at least it -was-), so the worth of the components is actually > $200.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
As has been pointed out in other posts, sold at a loss, money made on game license revenue, online, yada yada yada...
Microsoft is happy to hear that you will not be purchasing an un-hackable XBOX, as they understand you would only pirate games anyway. Go get Linux to run on your Hewlett Packard 20S scientific calculator or buy a PS2 Linux kit and play "tux-racer" till the cows come home.
Me, I think the XBOX is a superior game machine (and I am one of the many M$ users who cry foul everytime I have to load another "slave ///ER SERVICE pack" for Win-blows) and as such, M$ is entitled to protect their hardware from a bunch of morons with nothing better to do.
Put some of thos L33T skills to use programming a frickin' Video editing application so I can dump Premiere and Use Linux to do my real work! I would even BUY that from someone!
and as for
does that mean that if a piece of equipment isn't hackable, you won't use it? I bet your refrigerator is a phenomenal Quake server...
You don't seem to have grasped the point you were replying to. Yes, they can change the specs as they wish, yes, we understand that they market the box to sell games... none of that is responsive in the least to the post you were supposedly replying to, however. The point he made is that none of this has anything to do with security - the term is being misused.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Umm..... One word.
PALLADIUM
Microsoft is using the classic two-part tariff pricing method, but the strategy as they use it is flawed, IMHO. Just look at Iopener as a fairly recent example.
The concept behind two-part tariffs is actually pretty complex. Think of it like a state fair. You pay an admissions fee to get in (entry fee) and you must use tickets (which you have bought) each time you take one of the rides (use fee). The fair sets both the admissions price and the ticket price with the goal of seperating as much money as they can from you. So, how's the best way to set these two prices to make the most money? In Microsoft's case, the hardware is the entry fee and the license portion of the cost of the game is the use fee.
I'll let you explore the concept of two-part tariffs on your own (as an exercise to the reader), but here's a good graph of what the profit (pi) implications are.
Microsoft has set their entry fee to be negative, expecting to make more profit in the end through a compensatingly higher volume of use fees. Although possible, in theory, it also assumes that they have perfect control over the use fees. If I buy an XBox and run only Linux on it (no game purchases), Microsoft has net lost money because they subsudized my console purchase. If I jump over the fence at the fair, but don't ride any rides, the fair has only lost the opportunity to make money from my entry fee. This issue is a little clouded by differences in exclusivity (only one person can own the XBox, but most likely the fair space is not space constrained). The most basic strategy for setting these prices is to have the entry fee equal your fixed costs and the use fee equal your variable costs + profit. Deviating fom these increases risk (which can make you more profit if you do it correctly).
The pioneers of the at-a-loss entry fee were razor manufacturers. They lose money on the handle and make it up on the blade cartridges. Of course, what am I going to do with a razor blade handle without the blades? A lot less that I can do with an XBox (or Dreamcast or Iopener) without the games. Simply, I don't have any motivation to "hack" the razor handle.
This whole issue is similar to the trap that satellite companies fell into. They are walking a fine line by destroying the ROMs of people pirating their signal. Technically, they are destroying that person's property. Most cable companies, on the other hand, retain ownership of the cable box. Then, if you modify it to pirate the signal, you have destroyed their property. Either way, you're still stealing, but the cable companiers have a more-easily defendable position.
It's my damn X-box. I payed money for it. It resides next to my TV. So why would they care if I put a mod chip in there to make it do something? Why can't I hack it and play with it. I paid my 200 + dollars for it. If they could make it where it works after spilling 2 + beers in it. Then I would be impressed. The point is that I spent my money to OWN this piece of crap, I'm going to mod the crap out of it if I want to. They can't stop me. They shouldn't even try.
Step 1. Write code. Step 2. ??? Step 3. Profit!
hahaha!
They're buying from multiple suppliers.
Hence, there is a limit as to how far they can integrate.
NV makes the bridge/GPU/sound portion, and I believe the (currently unprofitable) Xbox already has all the NV-provided functions integrated into one chip. (If not, there is some integration here)
Intel makes the CPU. Not likely that you'll see this integrated with the NV chips.
MS isn't stupid. They're not going to stick with expensive manufacturing if they can avoid it. Problem is, because they don't control ALL of the hardware in the system, they CAN'T avoid expensive manufacturing techniques. Sony was able to integrate the Playstation (and later the PS2) because they not only produced the boards and units, *they produced the chips*. Nintendo doesn't quite have this flexibility, but every single part of the Gamecube was custom-designed for them.
MS is using an off-the-shelf Intel CPU. Chances are Intel isn't going to integrate their CPU with an NV chipset just to help MS save some money on their console. Intel simply has no real reason to justify such development costs since the Xbox is a tiny market for them.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Ok, it's not funny. But hack the box they cannot unhack.
This could easily be avoided with careful planning of the changes, but given MS track record, I don't think this is what we should expect.
Carlos
Hey moron I said for the X-box not as a whole. As a whole they have an awesome buisness model, but their market penetration for x-box has been far below their initial expectations and the boom of vendors dying to sell gmeas on the platform has not become the reality they told people it would be...
Maybe selling the hardware at a loss to make money from the software is unethical. It's just another one of those money games to mislead the consumer. ... If the hardware costs $500 you'll end up paying $500 by being overcharged for the software. Maybe they should just charge what the console is worth outright so consumers will know what they're getting into. Then the games could be reasonably priced at around $25, and they wouldn't have to worry about what is done with the hardware after the fact.
Everybody honest = Everybody happy.
And yes, the sky is tie dyed in my world....
As a whole they have an awesome buisness model,...
Since when is a monopoly an awesome business model?
Listen, I know Grade School can be tough, but hang in there, and someday you'll be a mighty 7th grader.
Who has made more money you or them??
Who has had more sex, you or a rapist?
So microsoft looses money on xboxes and expects to make it back on games, so what?
That doesn't make his point any less valid the he (and some others) plans to buy things that can be modded. I agree with him. When I buy a DVD player, it will be multi-region, and I will be able to fast forward past the damn FBI warning. If I buy a console, it will be one that is hackable. Just because MS sells the console's at a loss, doesn't change what I plan to do. I could really give a shit about their bottom line.
Life is too short to proofread.
MS should be able to do anything that doesn't violate (antitrust) law.
Life is too short to proofread.
They took the cooling fan off the "Custom GPU"? Even with that fan going the machine could heat my house. Are they trying to ensure that it breaks in 6 months so you'll buy the "Homestation" or what not?
Shift happens. Fire it up.
Think of it, this is a game box, and it's not so much for the sake that the machine can be hacked. Point being, it's a game.
On the other hand, we never did see Novell Netware for the Nintendo. Perhaps this is the answer to the lack thereof. =^_^=
This sig no verb.
I beleive that the primary reason that the hardware was altered is because the Engineers at Microsoft were able to re-design the system to make it cheaper to manufacture. Sure, the added effect of locking out current Mod techniques is an added bonus. But Microsoft would not make those changes just to add cost to their manufacturing costs.
Think about it. No console maker can get away with increasing the cost of the console to "Lock Out Hackers". The end user is either a hacker himself, or does not care.
The primary purpose is to most likely make the console cheaper, which means either a lower retail price, or more profit for Microsoft.
END COMMUNICATION
The use of the word security is somewhat missleading only because most people think that it means they are the ones being protected. Microsoft really doesn't care about protecting the comsumers here. They use it meaning protecting themselves and the other developers. They are securing the platform for the developers and not the consumers. To go along with your analogy, they dont care if anyone steals your gas as long as nobody steals their gas. By not allowing pirating(or just about anything else not game related) they are "securing" their product.
If you think this is outrageous, just wait till slashdot realizes that we have 4 borgs on the frontpage on the same day, ready to assimilate us any second now... ;)
"Wireless : LAN
If Honda sold me the car at a loss, but I could only fill up with a special, patented nozzle, only available at connocco that would not be security
How about, if Honda sells their cars, informing their customers that they may only purchase gas at connocco stations, is that not part of the purchase? Before you buy the car, and you know that you may only buy gas at those stations, why would buy it if you don't like that idea??
They create the Xbox to sell, to play games that are passed through them first. That is their whole business model. Anything beyond that is not part of the purpose of selling the box, and since the consumer KNOWS this (why else is hacking such an endeering practice?) complaining because you can't hack it to do what they don't want you to do, is simply ridiculous!
Now, if you bought the Honda, THEN they told you you can only get gas at connocco, only THEN will you have a legitimate reason to complain. Don't buy the product knowing that the limits with purchasing it will upset you. That's just stupidity. Especially if there's other cars out there that aren't limited to Connocco.
That said, the original Playstation went through three or four hardware revisions, plus the PSone, and each time some little hack or add-on fell over. So what? Just create a new one. Hardware otaku the world over always know exactly what revision of what hardware they need for their favourite hack to function. Look at the Celeron overclocking scene.
Your whole big post still does *nothing* to address his main point, which is that what Microsoft is addressing with this patch isn't security . That's not to say it's a bad thing (that's a whole 'nother argument for a different thread) -- but it isn't security. By attacking his analogy on grounds unrelated to his argument, you add nothing but a non-sequitur to this discussion.
Heh. I guess we can tell where the anonymous donor came from to get Linux running on the Xbox.
Think about it.
I was thinking about this and I realized there's one more thing to think about:
Cheating!!
I've played counterstrike online and the whole game was spoiled when we realized that someone had a mod that let him zip around at supersonic speeds and take people out.
It could be like punkbuster.
Why doesn't anybody think of it this way?
don't buy xboxes and help ms.
not dime to ms.
when you mean the Department of War.
We don't need no steenking mod chips! We got JTAG baby!!
It's only a matter or time till it'll be figured out.
couldn't microsoft also contain new code on newer xbox games that could update stuff like the bios, a bit of code in the cpu or gpu, or update something on the hard drive that could modify it enough to make it hard for modchippers? this way, people might be able to play those old games they have now, but newer games will look for something in the hardware and won't play. just a thought...
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
Finding out that I can only buy gas at connocco before vs. after the sale has ZERO bearing on wether or not it is a security feature.
I wasn't discussing the poster's original point, I was simply giving a better analogy... no where in my post did I even mention security, as that wasn't the point...
his original point may have been correct about how this issue isn't about security... but I was defending WHY ms's decision to do this is a completely legitimate and legal practice... it doesn't increase general user security, just MS's 'security' in knowing that their platform is still secure to only run software they allow.
It's simply unbelievable how much energy and creativity people have
invested into creating contradictory, bogus and stupid licenses...
--- Sven Rudolph about licences in debian/non-free.
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