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What Software Do Cable Installers Place on Your PC?
{e}N0S asks: "The cable guy came over to install a cable modem at my Dad's house. As I watched him do his stuff I noticed he was installing something called Broadjump Client Foundation. I know you don't need software for a cable modem to work so I asked if it was necessary. He said he had to do his list of things, and we had to sign that he did his list of things, otherwise he couldn't leave it with us to use. Since I can always remove the software, I agreed, but I noticed while he was flipping through the install, he was clicking 'agree' on every EULA that came up. Doing a search on Google for 'Broadjump Client Foundation' comes up with some pretty scary stuff as far as what it does, like: 'Builds a database of subscriber demographics and buying behaviors to help evolve and refine marketing efforts.' Now, how does this affect us? Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have this software on their computers is pretty high."
nothing.
he did nothing. i wouldnt let him. i just signed as if he did, to keep him outta shit.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Have a bogus PC or bogus windows installation for him to install junk on, which you can leave "unused" till you need to call support when you can boot into that partition if needed.
blog.sam.liddicott.com
This is why I always opt for the self-install option with any ISP. I don't even like my wife messing with my computer, nevermind some complete stranger.
:P)
(Side note: Yes, she does have her own computer. So there.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Do you want theoretical advice or practical?
Theoretical:
If you feel you can't live with the restrictions or you and your machine, then drop the service and use something else.
Practical
Just wipe the stuff off the machine after the guy leaves.
You can only analyze this stuff so far.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
What cable internet provider was this?
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
I use Mac OS X. The software that Comcast has is incredibly buggy for Mac OS. I refused to install it. I just signed the docs for the cable guy (as if I even needed him to come do the installation in the first place).
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
I wonder if you could take them to small claims court to compensate you for the time you spent uninstalling the program?
Sure, it wouldn't amount to much money, but taking them to court would get their attention that people don't want that spyware stuff on their machines.
The nerve they have to install that spyware and not have the decency to even let their customer know. This is a severe abuse of your privacy.
Roadrunner let me pick up a self install kit, so no tech ever came to my house.
And no software needed to be installed anyway. Screwed the cable line into the modem, turned it on, attached it to the Linksys router, turned it on, attached that to the LAN port on my Mac, turned that on, and presto! A working internet connection!
And if you really don't want something done, assure the installer you will sign off on whatever, so long as he does what you ask.
All we care about is your autograph, if your happy and are willing to sign, im sure he wont have a problem.
alex
He stood me up the first time, then when he did arrive, he told me that I couldn't have a dedicated IP, despite them having promised me that I could have one. He did however configure my machine to use the cable company's proxy server, and use DHCP, etc... After he was done, I just reconfigured it and hard set the IP address. I haven't had a problem in the past couple of years. Except for when my machine was off for a couple of days, and I had to re-configure for DHCP,and "steal" another address, as my old one wasn't available any more...
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
"Just give me the network info. I'll do it. You have no business touching my machine"
"but that's what my instructions say to do."
"are you bonded?"
"Whats that?"
"It means are you insured in case I have to sue you personally for screwing something up"
"oh.... Here's the info."
Besides, I connect through a router. What possible good would THEIR software do me?
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
The Time Warner/RoadRunner guy simply came in, installed a new NIC, installed the cable modem, set up the new email settings in Outlook, and changed the IE homepage to their portal. I scoured the system when I got home from work (my wife was the only one here when he did the install) and was quite relieved that he didn't install any software.
It shouldn't be that hard, really. If there are anything in those EULAs you object to or don't feel comfortable with, cancel the service.
In that case, I hope your father didn't agree to some sort of contract.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
my parents have DSL from the phone company. What they do is plug it in, then give you a CD and tell you to install it yourself. If you aren't careful it does some pretty crazy stuff. Your computer will turn into a giant ad for the phone company if you don't play it smart. There is one program you need to install though, its the one that lets you log into the DSL network. I don't know if it does underhanded things, and I forget what it's called. But the DSL is crazy fast, so I'm not going to complain.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
When I moved lately I had a guy come out as they needed to "configure my pc".
I showed him to my Linux firewall, he was surprised about the prompt but figured it was just DOS (ha).
Put in the cd, realised it was not DOS, took the CD out, turned to me and said: "Well, I guess you know what you're doing." And left.
Offically my Cable Provider (Rogers) is not supporting Linux / Unix but if you have a technical issue just bug the Second Line support and 99% of the time you get the Unix guy who answers your questions.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
Well, as a very first step, I would recommend against posting this to Slashdot. Let me explain with a little thought experiment. Presumably you are trying to "get the word out" about the Evil Corporate Spyware installed by your cable provider. Suppose you were to succeed, and almost every cable customer were to remove said software from his or her PC. Their demographics database would start to be pretty thin, and suddenly they can no longer use that information to defray some of the costs of running a broadband outfit. Best case, you get a rate hike. Worst case, the cable company goes out of business, and you're back on dialup (which, if you wanted to vote with your wallet against this kind of practice to discourage it, you could have done anyway). A better course of action would be to quietly uninstall everything the cable guy installed and keep it all under your hat.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
1.Connect PC, cable modem and a second PC (everyone has one :) ) to a simple hub ($20).
2.Run a network capture tool (tcpdump, snoop, ethereal, etc.) on the 2nd PC.
3.Boot your broadband PC.
4.Look at the traffic.
You should be able to recognize the DHCP negotiations and see whether anything unusual is going on. Odds are, all it needs to do is negotiate for an address, everything else is probably frill.
The next step is to install a 2nd NIC in the 2nd PC, load linux, connect the cable modem to that and the other NIC to your little LAN and use IP tables to set up a firewall and NAT.
KK4SFV
If you're going to play with their toys the you have to play by their rules. If their contract/TOS/whatever says you have to agree to have all that software and agree with the licensing to all in order to use their service, then I guess that's what you gotta do. But it's their system, their toys, so if you don't like it then don't play.
Now the installer was wrong. Very wrong. If you're gonna play by the rules then you should have read EVERY word of EVERY EULA and made the determination for each one. Since those are legal documents you would want to read carefully, perhaps consult with your lawyer on a few points. You could tie up that installer for a VERY long time. But for him to indicate that you accepted.....well, you might want to consult with your lawyer now.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
I suppose it depends on your provider, but to my knowledge, you shouldn't need a damn thing. Wanna test it easily?
1) Borrow a laptop with an ethernet card, unplug the power from the cable modem (some of them will only give a DHCP address to one MAC address at a time, and need to "forget" what they have seen)
2) Plug in the cable modem
3) Attach the laptop
Didja get an IP? If so, I'd say you can pretty safely whack the offending software. I seriously doubt it's needed. A lot of things (like a lot of those "connection sharing" firewall/router devices) would fail to work if it was.
...just say no. They do not need to install anything, I would tell the cable installer that if he/she has to install the software, then you do not want the service. Cable companies want your business more than they want to sell your info. This is another fine example of people infringing on your privacy without you knowing.
----- "It's all fun and games 'til somebody puts an eye out, then it's just funny."
While I realize you and your family never agreed to the software, you did authorize the installation of the modem. At best, it's a very gray legal area. The ISP and software manufacturer can both claim the tech was acting as a duly authorized agent (which he was) and you can validly claim that this software was never mentioned as being necessary and that it was sprung on you without prior notice, which would undoubtedly have affected your decision to purchase.
Unfortunately, he left with a valid signature, which legally means you have accepted the service as is, software and all. You may be able to remove the software, but at this point, all you can do is complain about it. But once you sign the sheet saying the work is done, you've essentially stated that the contract (or that portion thereof) has been fulfilled to your satisfaction. I know it's a hassle, but if you have serious misgivings about it, the proper procedure is to decline signature and say you never authorized this software installation, and allow the tech to remove the modem. Then deal with the sales department. If you paid by credit card, remember that you can put a hold on that payment until it is resolved to your satisfaction.
----------
Something cleverThe guy who came by when I got Road Runner (they didn't have self-install at the time) used his Linux box as his firewall too, so no guff about installation software.
At least in my case, the guy didn't even _try_ to install anything. I was impressed that he even knew how to set up an iMac from the TCP/IP control panel (I've had horrid experience trying to convince broadband technical support to even talk to me if they know I have a mac). The only thing he tried to do was set the default homepage of IE to some broadband portal, and I was like "Uh, this is my girlfriend's machine, and you _really_ don't want to do that."
;)
Then when he left, I whipped out the router and got everybody else on-line
This is where I get my recommended daily allowance of "Foot in Mouth."
... is how when you search for "Broadjump Client Foundation" in Google, the company's own homepage doesn't come up in the early listings.
This says to me that either there are very few links to the company's homepage, or there is no company homepage.
Heh. Conspiracy therories entered here. 10 cents.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
I say inform your local newspaper or television news station. As you say, since the cable company is almost a monopoly in the area, I'll bet a number of people would love to know about how their local ISP is "spying" on them without them knowing. Most local news outlets are always looking for juicy stories about companies screwing over consumers.
Treat your computer like your property! Personally, I would remind the man that he is dealing with MY property, that EULA's are made to be disagreed with, and that I would no longer allow him to touch my property if he continues to install software without me agreeing.
This makes perfect sense to me, as there are great differences between my house and my computer. Fine, he can run a cable line through my wall; I don't necessarily feel like doing that part myself. But, nobody touches my computers.
Of course, the easiest way around this is just to be running some variant of Unix at the time. I think I scared (or baffled?) the poor man with my NeXTcube. He backed off and let me do the rest of the installation myself.
-
And the Angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots! The cries of the carrots!"
.. That you didn't agree to any of the EULA's since it was the installer monkey who did the clicking on the "agree" buttons.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
AT&T Broadband in Richmond, VA installed that same shit on my computer. The tech was an asshole and I told him that I did not need software on my computer to connect through their lines, he got irate and told me that if i wanted to get online i had to have this software. I said kiss my ass, signed the papers and he left. I called AT&T and got a free month of service.
Just about all of my friends have that broadjump shit on their computer and willingly dont mind. Thats how the American public is, they dont care about privacy, all they want is thier cnn.com and marthastewart.com. They think that loss of privacy is what you give up when you go online.
Look at the millions of AOL users, who PAY, i repeat PAY, to be advertised to. They see like TV, the Ad's come with the territory.
Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did.
Yeah, but you made some agreement with the Cable company and I'm sure their stupid software was included in that agreement.
I suppose an easy way of getting around this is to just tell the guy you'll sign his piece of paper if and only if he doesn't install the software.
And it's not wholey true that cable modems don't require software. There are some companies using point to point protocal to increase security or whatever. So some software may actually be required. My recomendation there is to have a Linksys router on hand. If the cable company doesn't allow them, wait for the cable guy to leave and then set it up.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Recently they brought fiber to my house, with a little permanent gateway which gives me 3 10Mbps ports plus a POTS for voip.
:-)
:-)
The guy insisted on having me insert the CD into the drive, which will then auto-run and open a welcome window with everything I need to know. For the first 45 seconds I tried telling him that being a Linux box (and without a graphic card at all!) I was very very skeptic about the procedure
Then, since it was pointless to try and introduce him to the unix world in 10 minutes, I just tried a "dhcpcd eth1" and voila!, I signed the acceptance form as if he did everything and sent him away.
But if he would prove to be really really stubborn I would have just let him install whatever he wanted on a spare PC just to reghost it 2 minutes later
Vacuum cleaners suck. Kings rule.
I wasn't asked if I wanted a self install kit, so a tech came out. I was watching over his shoulder the entire time. The only things he did were reconfigure outlook, and change my home page to rr.com.
I asked him about the home page switch and all he said was that it was policy and I that I could change later.
Chances are, if you ask your cable guy not to install it, he'll be more than happy not to, because he can get you to sign, and move onto the next house ASAP.
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
I switched from Speakeasy DSL to Optimum Online when I moved (No DSL in new neighborhood... d'oh!!)
...) The guy just looked at it, and said, and I quote "Damn! You did a better job than I would have." The guy literally handed me the DSL bridge (It's NOT A MODEM DAMNIT!), we plugged it in, he saw the lights "go green" and said "good 'nuff for me."
... DirecTV rocks), I had my Linksys router plugged into my iBook.
:)
;)
When the Speakeasy guy came out 2+ years ago, I had done all the "inside wiring" myself (this was back in the dedicated-line days
When the Optimum Online guy came out here (I needed someone to come out since I don't subscribe to cable
First thing he did was go outside, climb the pole and turn the line on. when he did that, the cable bridge (IT'S NOT A MODEM DAMNIT!) "went green" and that was that.
All he asked was to see me pull up a web page. That was good enough.
Seriously, don't give the guy the old chip-on-the-shoulder attitude. Don't sound like a clueless yutz, either. Just explain to the guy that listen, it's my machine and I'll install all the software on it, thanks. It's already configured for the network -- I read the directions (on the web, in the box, etc.)
The installers are usually _very_ cool about that stuff. In fact, the cable guy saw my Sun Microsystems jacket and started asking me some questions... we had a good long talk about IP networks and stuff, since he was looking to go to some Cisco courses and get outta the cable install business
Best of luck with the installs! Remember, don't give them an attitude, just convince them that your machine is all ready to go. Remember, if they get out of there in 5 minutes instead of 2 hours, it means they get to take a long lunch
--NBVB
My cable installer tried dropping the cd in my linux box and wondered why it wasn't auto running. The he explained that you couldn't get online without their software. I proceeded to restart the network and grab an ip and up popped /.. That shut him up.
I keep an old PC around for experimentation and I had the cable guy install everything to that PC. When he was gone. I re-ran the cable to my firewall.
Consumers won't get a foothold with complaints because 99% of custmers (myself included) are happy enough with finally having high speed internet that they aren't willing to rock the boat.
On Windows,
Press START, SETTINGS, Go into Control Panel, Select Add/Remove Software and remove the offending software.
If they complain, invent a ficticious "Computer Guy" who told you it was the reason your system was locking up all the time.
Mention that you have lots of games and Internet Explorer "add-ons" that you have downloaded and installed. Believe me, NO technician will want to muck about through a myriad of windows software installations to troubleshoot their spyware.
They'll go away.
"there's things seriously wrong with the cable company installing stuff on peoples computers (without asking)"
IANAL but I believe that signing that paper that the technician brought is legally all the consent they need to do whatever they want regarding their service. But will say it was not right of the technician to click through those EULAs like that.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I am sure most any Slashdot reader could remove the software or just go with a self-install kit. My parents, or a lot of my friends, could not. I think the issue here is that these people - ones who probably didn't watch/notice all the EULAs being clicked for them - are being monitored/tracked/whatever as if they had given their consent.
The installer has acted as their representative without their knowledge or consent. While the EULA would easily get tossed out if they wanted to fight it, they wouldn't know there was anything to fight and they would have already been monitores/etc already.
And yes, I know the ISP monitors traffic anyway, but it is different when they are installing software on your computer and agreeing to a EULA for you.
In the UK when a guy from BT cam around to install my DSL he did the exact opposite. They're specifically not allowed to touch my PC as they're not insured for any damage. So the engineer has a laptop, he plugs in the modem and proves the line works. Then I sign him off, he gives me the modem and a driver disc and it's up to me.
Of course this was 2 years ago, these days the engineer doesn't even come over...
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
They also said they did not turn on the software, but after portscanning all of Charter's IP space that Arin said was allocated to them over 13,000 computers had this port listening out of over 25,000+ (4.5 Class C's) were actively listening for connections and would accept a connection if you telnetted to the port. Whereas scanning a non charter IP subnet there were less than 20 that accepted this (I don't have my numbers with me ATM).
The wonderful fellows at Securepipe.com Looked into this and brought it up with the local "watch dog" columnist for one of the local papers who wrote an article about this. Charter was not happy. The guys at Securepipe also brought this up with the local cable commission. Who were semi interested in this issue. About a week later port filtering was in place, including port 641 (what the software runs on).
They said the use was for the ability to remotely help users. Yes this is a nice function to have, but what if this fell into the wrong hands? The Broadjump software is based off of an older version of VNC that has some weak authentication issues. And also dealing with Charter and @home techs I wouldn't trust these people with my computer anyway. I don't trust my mother with my computer.
This was back in Novemeber/December who knows what they could do now.
wi2600.org You can read the threads here, many to list and you can see the research that we did to get into this. I do not know if an electronic copy of the mentioned newspaper article exists but if it does, I will try and get it posted.
Slashdot # 199661 the number that's the same upside down and right side up
That's what I did. They didn't even look at my computer. Of course, I wasn't lying, but that's not relevant.
Ditto on signing the docs. And then I just enabled dhcpd in the appropriate rc script. Works fine.
Best Slashdot Co
But what about the mortals? 99% of this monopolistic company's customers have this crap installed on their computer, didn't ask for it, didn't agree to it, and don't even know it's there! Doesn't that strike you as wrong? Perhaps even evil? Laws are not keeping up with technology, and the inherent evil of capitalism is driving us into a dangerous situation. These companies justify their actions based just on maximizing profits for their shareholders. They don't care what petty moral problems this imposes.
When I signed up with my cable supplier, NTL here in teh UK, they arranged for the engineer to fit cable to my house. They asked if I wanted the enginer to install the modem or if I was happy to do it myself. I said I'd do it myself, they said "fine" and that was that.
No software they tried to install, no software they tried to get me to install.
but then again, given the cable modem simply plugs into an ethernet port, why shoudl there be any software required anyway?
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
Such an agreement would not be binding unless it included the texts of all the EULAs.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
in my area (cambridge MA), there are two options. you can either have a cable modem, or not. but if you do, it is through media one - which is now AT&T.
I can't stand them, but they are getting better after many a lawsuit against them (not that I'm suing them, but it is nice to see other people are).
At least on the good side, when they come to install the crap, if you just tell the person you know what you are doing, then they will just leave all of the stuff and let you sign something to show that they were there and left the stuff.
The rest you can do yourself, call in and get the hardware activated, and you are good to go.
I've had DSL in the past here and it was like that too, although went on to die and I quit the service because the customer service was soooo bad.
and there is no way I will ever ever ever go back to dial up at my home. no way. ever ever ever.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Since I run Linux, I picked self install. It is $75 cheaper than full install, and the technician came out, refurbished all the cable connectors, turned me on at the hub, and checked the signal level at the cable modem. He then let me configure Linux and check that I could ping various places.
You really can't argue with this policy. Some customers (most?) need the full service install. My only complaint with Cox is that they keep increasing the price (from $40/mo to $50/mo) and decreasing the upload cap (from 500Kbits to 200Kbits). The download cap is 1.4Mbits - T1 performance for a fraction of the cost.
If they are going to absolutely insist on touching your machines, just set up a partition with a fresh copy of Win95 or something, let them mess about there, and then destroy it when they leave. Or if you weren't pre-prepared for that, just let them isntall and then re-install your OS after they're gone. If you're running a Winbloze variant, you should be re-installing your OS every 2-3 months anyways just to clear the cruft.
11*43+456^2
I worked in the cable industry for 5 years as an internal systems administrator at a Systems design contractor. Most of those techs are trained on hardware that'd liquify your brains - installing software for some clueless customer is a very small part of their responsibilities.
Some of you people just need to get over yourselves!
2 cable installs (Cox and RoadRunner) and both times, the tech said "We're supposed to install this stuff, but you really don't want it". (I didn't anyway)
They merely set up the protocols enough to get a signal, opened a browser and got to a random webpage. "OK...thats it. Here's the CD if you want to install it later."
When I had my first cable modem, it came with a CD that I was supposed to install, I never did. Naturally, the modem worked fine. Since then, I've had no software installed for a cable modem (NIC driver doesn't count). Recommend you get a HARDWARE firewall, and put it between the PC and the modem....I don't know that this will stop the tracking/reporting, but it won't hurt. And uninstall that dog ASAP!!!
Besides just uninstalling that software, there are some things you could and should do. Check to see if your local city government has a liasion with the cable company. If so, my first step would be to let them know about what you experienced. As someone else mentioned, check the service contract to see what it mentions about allowing the cable company to make you a party to other agreements (EULA). Though it could happen, I doubt a court would allow it to stand if you were unaware of what the agreements were about. It would be the same as assigning the power of attorney. The idea of needing a demographic database to offset costs could be true but should have been stated. Companies should offer the customer a choice: pay x amount for the product or pay a smaller fee but allow them to gather and use marketing info.
From this site: http://support.sbcglobal.net/legal/5071.shtml Is the following EULA language: # RIGHT TO TERMINATE NETWORK-BASED SERVICES: By using the Licensed Software, you acknowledge and agree that BroadJump and SBC Internet Services shall at all times retain the right to terminate any and all on-going network-based services that you receive pursuant to your use of the Licensed Software for any reason whatsoever, including without limitation your refusal to allow BroadJump and/or SBC Internet Services to install on your computer any upgrade or modification to the Licensed Software in the future. You better keep that 486 honeypot running with the Broadjump software!
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
When I first got cable about 4 years ago the guy came over with his laptop and got everything working. Then I told him to leave the PC alone and I would take care of everything else. He said ok, I signed and he left. Easy as pie.
The cable guy came over to install a cable modem at my Dad's house. As I watched him do his stuff I noticed he was installing miniature cameras in my Dad's bedroom and bathroom. I know you don't need cameras for a cable modem to work so I asked if it was necessary. He said he had to do his list of things, and we had to sign that he did his list of things, otherwise he couldn't leave it with us to use. Since I can always remove the cameras, I agreed, but I noticed at the top of the camera was a small antenna. Doing a search on Google for 'Comcast minicam' comes up with some pretty scary stuff as far as what it does, like: 'Records toilet breaks and sexual escapades in order to enhance customer service' Now, how does this affect us? Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the cameras; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have these cameras in their bedrooms is pretty high.
The true question is what RoadRunner installs on PC's that will not allow you to perform the standard install by yourself to save the fee.. I work for ISP and we have cable plant that works great. The average person can use our software to install our package and get up and running providing the cable techs have installed the right filters on the lines.. When I visit my aunt & uncles house to do their manual install of RoadRunner I am unable to resolve any DNS no matter what I do to the Win98SE machine... I do the normal kicking around of the computer and software and still nothing.. Hell I even tried getting my Linux Laptop to resolve DNS...... Nothing... I could ping by ip all day long just not get DNS... It was late I was tired so i told them to call RoadRunners techs... My cousin said the guy was there maybe 5 minutes and it was up and running...... He told my cousin that I must not have known what I was doing.... Hahah let me talk to RR's technicians who have been trying to force me a new ipaddress for the last year and a half.... :-) Anyways What software did that moron put on their computer that allowed them to work so fast?? Mind you they got charged something like $24.95 for the install..... has me boggled and mad :-)
With Verizon DSL, i can either connect with my gateway/router with PPPoE, or through a standard WinXP network connection. They sent a CD to use for setup, but I uninstalled their software and it works great otherwise.
Don't give these techs a hard time, they have to assume that you're a beginner and they probably need to install certain software by contract with some other software company (as a previous post supposed). We've all been support techs at some time in our lives. Just tell him you'd be happy to sign the agreement without him installing the software, and that way you both win as he can lower his average time-spent-per-incident rating.
$8.95/mo web hosting
Now I know it's not available in all areas but...
The company I am currently using (Directv). Has a FAQ where they encourage things like using Linux, using a router and setting up your own website. They also provide a static IP address at no additional charge.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
What would he do then? I would tell him to hook up the cable, let me sign and then he can leave.
Maybe what you were signing said that you agreed to all of those EULA's that has clicked on your behalf?
Firstly, this is extremely sneaky way of generating lots of market information about your customer base... (now we see one of the many ways that cable companies plan on making back their money for shelling out billions to deliver broad band...)
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Just had shaw install cable modem service this weekend.
:)
:)
It went great, they saw my spraling collection of computers and decided they didn't want to install software.
We made sure everything worked before they left though. (Although, I didn't show them my wireless network up and running, that was 2 minutes after they left.
I just had Charter Pipleline service installed and spent the weekend reconfiguring the network and setting up the router. The guy that came out was very cool about it and very knowledgeable. The only thing he needed to do to the machine was reconfigure the network settings so that they would work with the cable modem. Other than doing what he needed to, he didn't try anything funny or out of line. Some cable modems hook directly into the pc and may require a driver for the usb connection. Some providers want to put their browser on and/or reconfigure yours so that their page is your default home page.
Charter, while not everyone's favorite service, has been very cool about helping me reset my hosts file on the cable modem and trying to see my router to help me trouble shoot the system. Their official policy is that they don't support networks which makes you on your own if you have trouble. In practice I've found that if you know what you're doing and the techs aren't swamped at the time, they'll work with you and tell you what they're seeing from their end and give you some pointers. Just don't expect them to walk you through it.
Bottom line is that there really is no need to install anything other than maybe a driver for a usb connection to the cable modem. I'm not impressed that people that don't know any better are being taken advantage of by people like your provider. I can only hope that someone does that to their mom, dad, brother or sister sometime.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
What about Satellite modems? Direcway's two way system has this "Direcway client" software that appears to be necessary for the two way connection to work at all (ie if it's disabled or turned off, the net connection goes down). And since the connections from the satellite modem is a USB, there doesn't seem to be any way to use the Linksys router (that we bought before the installation intending to use as a firewall and to network the two PC's) as anything more than a glorified hub.
Am I wrong? Is there a way to do this? Anybody got any thoughts>?
You could buy a PowerBook G4 like I have...The kid was so amazed that I Didn't have a Windows PC, he actually asked me if my Mac was compatible with TCP/IP! His Macintosh knowledge was SO out of date he thought it was only capable of Appletalk...
Anyway, I gave him a crash course in networking macs via TCP/IP, and at the end I had made another convert...
Me: "Okay, so you go into System Preferences, click this drop-down menu, select "Ethernet adapter", click DHCP, and click Apply Now. That's it."
Him: "Don't you have to restart the machine?"
Me: "Nope."
Him: "Wow, that's 100 times easier than what I have to do for a PC!"
Gotta' love that...
Who did what now?
Dude, Win98 doesn't even need to be rebooted to renew DHCP. Winipcfg resides in the c:\windows directory, and you can release and renew your IP using it.
I have Earthlink DSL, and I got the self install kit. Once I used their software to connect and activate my account, I had my Linux firewall up in about a day and haven't used their software since.
People laugh at me when they find out I have Win98, but it is stable enough for me to boot it up and play games on, which is all that machine gets used for nowadays. If you upgraded to Win2k or WinXP, why am I the idiot?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Every time I hear another Cable/DSL horror story, I thank the Rebel Alliance for mesanetworks.net, my WISP. 1mbps up/down, do whatever you want as long as you don't exceed your 10GB/month limit (or pay extra per mb). Static ip's, 30ms ping to their dns, life is _good_
Okay, before you flame me being lucky by owning a home in the right place, a decent ISP was one of the criteria I had in buying our new house...
Not really. There are lots of contracts that refer to other contracts and "incorporate" their terms "by refrence". Those other contracts have to be available to you as well, somehow. And they were in this case - the original submitter said that he saw them on the screen as the cable guy was clicking on them.
I agree with the premise, however. It's a scummy business practice illustrated here, but it's not surprising.
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
I had scheduled for the cable modem install the day before I was to leave town for a business trip. They called the afternoon of the install and tried to back out... the next install date they had open was something like a week later when I was gonna be out and I wasn't about to let anyone install anything on my computers.
So I begged and pleaded and threatened (in no particular order) and they agreed to come out the next day.
The next day arrived, and one guy was there to climb the pole and the other was there to do the networking stuff. Immediately they notice I had the wrong cable in my house and rewired it. They did it fast and cleanly, too. Nice job.
I gave the keyboard jockey my temporary win95 partition to play on, he did his thing, rebooted, verified access and was pleased. So was I.
As a gesture of gratitude I offered them a beer. The keyboard jockey agreed and all was well. The pole climber politely declined. Both were good guys and professional.
After they left, I rebooted in linux and set up lunix. Ran great. Now I run FreeBSD. Runs better.
Perhaps the good people at Lavasoft could add this kind of scumware to their list of Naughties?
Just a thought.
Trolling is a art,
If you read this message, then you agree to hand over all worldly positions to the poster.
Click Cancel if you are not prepared for this.
Guy just handed me a disk to install. Didn't work on XP Pro. Called up ATTBI, they had me register the cable modem via their web site and set up on their proxy (which proxy I promptly dumped when I got off the phone). Didn't install anything else. I probably didn't even have to worry about hiding my Linux boot disk.
I would say that the first place to start is Ad Aware to remove the spyware, but www.lavasoft.nu seems to be down. I haven't been able to get a refupdate in quite awhile.
yep, thats right. when the cable guy came to install Road Runner at my co-workers house, he said he had to install some software. one of the things he installed was a very well-known virus (can't remember the name now) that destroyed everything on the hard drive. before nuking the HD, it also emailed copies of the virus to everybody in his address book - that doesn't look good when you are an infosec professional! my co-worker had to reinstall the OS, lost alot of data, and then realized after the reinstall that he didn't need any RR software anyway to use their cablemodem service. RR did nothing at all to compensate him.
My experience with RR has been great on the other hand. I never let them touch a thing. And they are fine with that. They just want to get out of the house and on to the next call.
-- ken williams
I gave him a couple of RedHat CDs and sent him on his way.
Check out AbiWord.
This would have prompted me to kick him out of the house and demand that they give me a self starter kit.
G.
The more of these horror stories I here, the more I like fidelity. I read the entire AUP, and there's prohibiting servers, I don't have any ports blocked, and they didn't install any software. The "tech" hooked up the modem to the wall and my ethernet card, I showed him how to start mozilla from the kpanel, and he was happy to see my homepage popup. 3 cheers to fidelity for not trying to restrict me in any visible way.
just because a cable installer knows "A", doesn't mean he's familiar with "B".
i used to work at a phone company and the product managers there could talk to death about frame relay lines, phone switching equipment, etc, and they really knew what they were talking about. but they couldn't figure out how to log into their machines or how to change their password.
Free Webmail
Here's Broadjump. I found it through Hotjobs' listings for Canada, but it's just www.broadjump.com.
MacThe only time my DSL provider (Bellsouth) has had to send a tech out was to replace my fried Alcatel 1000 about a year and a half ago. I've handled my own installations of dialup and DSL with them for the last 4 years. They are quite Linux friendly though they do not support it.
He was prepared to do a normal windows installation when I showed him my router and firewall setup. We plugged in a couple cables and bang, it was running. He was very happy to not have to deal with all the extra crap. "Wow, that's Linux? Cool.", he said. Probably his easiest call ever, total 15 minutes 10 of them me showning him how feature-rich Linux is.
I have AT&T Broadband. The only real thing that their software does is register your modem's MAC address. (The rest of the software they install is not necessary).
Until the MAC address is registered, the only place your browser can go is their Modem MAC address registration page (so you could bypass the software installation and just go there and register the MAC manually if you knew what to do).
I had a spare PC and let them do whatever they wanted to it. After they left, I reformatted the hard disk and put that PC back in storage. Then I simply installed my Linksys wireless router and everyone was happy.
those poor M$ Windows users, chasing virus, hiding from spyware, trying to hard not to crash.
People, computing doesn't have to be that way.
Folks who don't know Linux think Linux is so hard, but it's not as hard as preserving your windows install. Really.
This message brought to you by those of us who are not as others, and have an esier time using our computers than you do.
Microserfs, Please remove Bill Gates's dick from your mouth and join the rebel alliance. It's really much nicer over here, and you're all making people think that computers are hard to use.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Many DSL providers operate over the PPPoE protocol. Bundled with Verizon's was their crappy support software that I really didnt want or need.
Typically, the implementation used by the DSL provider (my experience was with Verizon), is not nearly as good as other versions available.
If you're a tweaker, bandwith whore or just generally care about your connection's performance I recommend heading over to DSL Reports.com and grabbing a copy of RASPPPoE and Dr. TCP. Packet size and receiving window settings can make a world of difference.
Quote, unquote: "Since I can always remove the software, I agreed, but I noticed while he was flipping through the install, he was clicking 'agree' on every EULA that came up. ....Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have this software on their computers is pretty high."
Ummmm...."clicking through the Eulas" is the only way to install the software. If he wants "cable companies to stop doing this" he could have cancelled the install and thrown the "cable guy" out. And, yes, as he observed the cable guy "clicking through the Eulas" and did not throw him out he *did* agree to them. However, this is a moot point because the software is easily uninstallable and is not required for the cable modem to function properly.
Cable companies are frequently "monopolies" in towns because of the expense of laying new cable and maintaining it. You can't have 10 cable companies all laying 10 strands of cable on each telephone poll. Besides that, it isn't economical for a company to provide service in an area in which it cannot have a guaranteed customer base (not a guaranteed number of paying customers--that is entirely different), because of the expense involved in setting up the cabling to begin with. Towns frequently entertain "bids" by competing cable companies as to which company will provide the area with the best prices, service and choice prior to awarding the "contract" to a particular cable company. It's not a monopoly--it's a practicality.
Frankly, I grow a bit weary hearing people complain about non-issues like this. Usually, these complaints are based on a wide degree of ignorance and fear, just like this one. It would be a different matter if you couldn't uninstall the software and still use the modem. But you can, and that fact alone makes this much ado about nothing.
The guy that came over to install my stuff was a total moron. When signing up for my cable modem service I decided to do the "honeypot" idea with my Windows machine, which I figured would be easiest (let them screw everything up, then pull out the info I need after they leave). There was a spot of trouble which I didn't forsee, however: I use Apple Studio Displays on all of my machines, and he couldn't get over the fact that they aren't iMacs. When he got there he was like, "Aa, iMacs? They're fancy. I don't know how to install this stuff on iMacs. Let me call my supervisor..."
I had three clearly visible beige boxes under the table at this point, which obviously had the monitors connected to them, the keyboards, mouses, etc, etc.
I tell him, "No, man, these are all PC's."
"Yeah, cool. Hmmm..."
*fiddles with one of them running Windows98, dials number on cellphone*
"Yeah, what's up, man. Um, I got these iMacs here, and I was wondering what I should do..."
I just about hit him over the head with my chair. After some pressuring I got to talk to the guy on the other end of the phone, who gave me everything I needed to know(IP, etc). When I gave the phone back I could hear him yelling at the "installer."
"Oh, you mean that they aren't iMacs. That's crazy. They look just like em."
What the FUCK...
Crystal Meth: Would you ingest somthing made from a poisonous gas and an explosive metal? You do it every day -- Salt!
Hi,
I work for a Dutch cable provider that *does* need software installed, as they use PPPoE for subscriber access. Windows XP is a godsend, in that regard, since it has PPPoE built-in, but all other versions of Windows require PPPoE software to be installed.
Also supplied on the CD are a mac version of the software, and also the source package of Roaring Penguin's PPPoE client for linux, although for linux I'd recommend just downloading the latest version. And, of course, there are no spyware things on the CD, though it does rather sneakily lock the MSIE Homepage setting in Windows XP's registry.
You don't get full installation unless you pay extra for it. If you don't, you just get the modem, a generic signal amplifier for TV signal, and a length of UTP cable. If you do, you get a network card too, and an incompetent lout to install it all for you.
And company that doesn't offer it in this manner should be avoided, if possible.
At the time I was using a little 486 with Slackware and a pair of NE2000 NIC's as a gateway (which up to that point had been running dialup).
I had SLIP connecting it to my Amiga, Ethernet to my Dual Celeron, two monitors, three keyboards, two mice, and a worrying amount of cable.
The engineer took one look at it, put on a slightly exasperated expression, plugged/drilled/screwed everything in, and said "I'm sure you know what to do" before leaving.
I plugged in the CM to the other NIC, started dhcpcd, tweaked my firewall to point to the new interface, and that was that.
If you are smart, then you will naturally uninstall/use a dummy PC/self-install/whatever to avoid this, but what about the average, non technical user who has bought into the hype? I'd be very interested to see how much of this is mentioned in the T&C of the agreement. I'll bet it doesn't lay too great a point on the fact that your taste in pr0n will be given to another company. There's a class action or three in there sooner or later, I'm sure...
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
I got mine while it was still @home. The technician told me not to install any of the software that @home sent me. I had their service until their demise and I am now on Comcast. Comcast does not force me to install anything but they force you to install an activex control if you want to use their support website.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
I'd give you a big-mac an and egg-mc-muffin-cellent karma rating.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
You can easly run your own DNS under linux.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
This makes me happy I'm running OpenBSD. I don't think there is much chance they could install all this crap on that. Heck, all you need to get it working is dhclient or ifconfig. It all comes with the system. If I need anything else, their setup is non-standard and I don't want it. (OK, there's PPPoE, but I don't have experience with it. I guess PPPoE a Good Thing). Besides, I don't need a cable guy. I can plug the cables myself.
Unfortunately, this is not the case for most people. Those people will pay for broadband, and get it, plus a load of software that clutters if not breaks their systems. Then they have to call tech support and have it fixed. All the complexity will deter them even more from computers, and bring them further from getting to learn how they work. This will make them more dependent on the companies they get tech support from.
1. Offer a good service
2. Mess people's systems
3. PROFIT!!!
---
DRM: short for Digital Rights Manglement. Any method to restrict users' rights to do whatever they want with their property, often in name of security.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
The software:a is/speedyPP POE/BroadJump/s /startup _full.htmt mlr s/www.iscentra l.org/%257Etcniso/main/cisp.htm
http://www.velocidadejusta.com.br/manu
More information (search the page):
http://www.pacs-portal.co.uk/startup_page
Broadjump's homepage:
http://www.broadjump.com/
Mention of Broadjump in Yahoo's EULA:
http://support.sbcglobal.net/legal/5070.sh
Information about the Broadjump Client (looks like it spys on whether you've overclocked your connection):
http://osiris.978.org/~brianr/mirro
Posting what will be a +5 informative as an Anonymous Coward:
Priceless
When I had roadrunner installed (a long time ago) I just put a junk hard drive in my PC with windows 95 (they didn't support Linux).
When the tech came I let them do whatever they were going to do. When they left I checked the relevant settings and the pulled the hard drive out, and put my primary drive back in.
"But actually trying to use m4 as a general-purpose langage would be deeply perverse" --ESR
If they insist that you install their software, make sure you insist that you read every last word of every EULA for every piece of software they install. If even one or two people do this in a day, it will throw their installation schedule right off and make it not worth doing.
If these installers are putting software on customers' computers, it should be the customers that click through the EULAs.
Cheers,
Vic
WHat this guy did was spend 30 minutes while the patriarch of said family explained to him 1) why you can't install Windows software on a Linux system and 2) that he could set up the system himself if teh tech would just give him the appropriate information. Finally the tech conceded.
Moral of the story: if you can bullshit your way out of it, you don't *have* to install the tracker software.
This sig no verb.
I fail to see how this is an issue when you use a non-Microsoft environment. Will the field service-dude know how to install this software under wine's emulation? Will he even know what wine is? Do I even have Wine installed? Is there a MAC or Unix version of these software tools? What about the possibility to format Windows imediatly after the service-man leaves the room?
;)
Is this a notion of you must submit to the service man installing software before he leaves, or is this a notion of you must run this software to use the network? I think the later is highly unlikely, and the former to be part of the burocratic tangle inside the network companies.
Every time I call the cable company, I have to explain to them that my computer is a FreeBSD box with an AMD 100Mhz 486 chip with 64Mb of memory. Then they explain to me that they only support XYZ setup, and I have to explain to them that I'm talking about my router, and I have XYZ behind it. I thne have to explain to them the way DHCP works, and how that is all that they actually require. Once your have them spell bound with ignorant IP terminology, they tend to shutup and go away. I figure the same jedi mind trick can be done with the field service people.
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interes ting-people/200202/msg00164.htmlr esting-people.org/archives/interes ting-people/200206/msg00132.html
http://www.inte
Well, according to "policy," the installer can't do anything unless you are running a supported OS that boots with no errors. He is supposed to install the ISP's marketing software, change the homepage to the ISP's advertising portal, yada yada yada.
BUT there is very little standardization among installers. The quality is EXTREMELY low. I worked for a company that specialized in Cable Modem installations for broadband providers, and still the majority of the contractors were just Cable TV techs. I started out as a Tech, having not worked for about a year. Of course, I was promoted to Regional Training Supervisor within a few weeks. I wrote a Standard Operating Procedure Manual for doing Cable Modem installs that was used by 150 or so techs in Atlanta. After that company was bankrupted (by the owner stealing money, equipment, and blatant discrimination against white people and women (Thanks again, James Clavon!)), I saw that my manual was being taken by the techs to other companies, and those other companies promptly made it their official document.
Anyway, when I wrote it, I had to take into account the demands of the ISP's that contracted us to do the installs, but I took advantage of every loophole that I could to have the install done the way that I would want it done on MY machine.
Specifically, there was software provided by the ISP which was SUPPOSED to make all of the modifications to the system required, but it crapped out a lot of the time. At the time (about two years ago) the software did JUST make the TCP/IP changes, add an email account (to Outlook Express), change the home page, and send a machine description (hardware stats) to the ISP. I encouraged techs to avoid using this software and do the entire process manually.
Yada yada, more random info:
As a supervisor, I had to tell techs to bail on the install if the machine didn't fit the ISP's minimum reqs (like supported OS), but if I was doing an install, or was nearby when a tech radioed me with a problem, I would get the install done for anyone who wanted the service. I could judge the customers pretty well, in that if they were self-sufficient computer users, I would just give them the TCP/IP connection, because that's all they needed. If they needed tech support in the future, they'd have to deal with either putting up a temporary supported OS, removing their firewall (unsupported), or (my preferred method) just lying to tech support, giving the answers that will lead them down their trouble shooting checklist towards getting the damned connection fixed.
Anyway.... I don't know about thew state of affairs today. Now I'm more on the CMTS end in that field. I wouldn't be suprised if the software had spyware components. When I was getting out of that area, they were introducing a "ToolKit" application which WAS somewhat useful in that it would check the status of connections to email, news, & DNS servers, etc. They wanted it to run in the systray and I think it did report back some traffic and usage info to the ISP. But when I had a connection problem, it was easy to start that app and confirm they were having email issues. Now, they probably have much more Orwellian things in the works....
jmlyle
I have misplaced my pants.
Freedom by obscurity?!? Ya that's the ticket, we'll all go underground and that way we can practice our freedoms in secret with out the problems for governments or corporate cheiftons. Great plan there Chester.
Look, the cable companies enjoy their quasi-monopoly status and they seem quite happy to abuse their position, and with the law makers pockets lined well, they will have no worries. What worries me is the lack of FULL disclosure. If I'm going to be screwed in such a way, I think you should at LEAST know what's going on. I want a legal form that people read with glazed over eyes and initial parts to show them EXACTLY what information will be collected and used against them. However, as long as Michael "nepotisim" Powell is the chairman of the FCC to serve interests of the greatest donors and not the people, we might as well get used to saying, "Thank you sir! May I have another!"
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
I keep all my cable installers and put them in a deep circular well in my basement. They scream and holler, especially when I tell them I'm going to make a fleshsuit out of their skin. I won't feed them until they put the lotion on. And I get all the channels for free!
...tell him your OS isn't supported. I'd like to see them try and get anything like that running on my OS X box, or on a Linux partition. :)
So a few years back I was working for the IT department in a county that I lived in doing Tier 2 networking support.
:)
It was kinda nice, being 17 and having my own parking space, office, nametag with picture, etc... and computer that they gave me...
Now they were pretty strict about paperwork and licensing, being gov't and all, and at first my boss thought I wouldn't even need a computer of my own in the office at first, but then I needed to check my Groupware email so much, so I got a little crappy Pentium 3/300mhz that I found in the 'Old Computers, Destroy these, don't give them away' room.
Anyway, I installed Windows 2000 (or 98) or it first, but I left 10Gb as an extra partition.
I got bored one day and thought, well I am working in Unix stuff in the server room all the time, and this thing doesn't even have SSH built in, so let's install linux. I thought to consult my Boss, but then decieded not to bug him. I had the license, it was free! He said not to bring any software from home, because of pirating/licensing issues, but thought this would be fine.
I loaded Linux, and it worked like a dream on the machine (this was before Redhat was BloatHat by default). So of course I use Lilo to switch between Windows for email (groupware...), and Linux. I was also testing out VMWare to try to get the Groupware going in Linux.
Anyway, a few weeks later (being a lowly intern) I have to share my desk and computer with someone who is just starting, which was fine with me. It was a two person office anyway, and she was just using my computer until she got her own.
One day, apparently she rebooted Windows for something, and I forgot to ever mention linux for more than a second. Lilo comes up, and she sits and thinks, so it goes to Linux. Then when it prompts her for a username/password, she goes to the Bossman
Bossman says to me in his office later, "I need to talk to you, did you load Linux on your computer?". To make a long story long, I didn't get fired or anything but I did have to explain my way out of it (GNU, etc...)
The next day he gave me a machine to work on in Linux and test VMWare on. It was a Dual Processor Box, with 1gb memory, and 4 harddrives all in Hardware raid!!! I had to load Oracle and VMWare on it... Oh, what a job !
Tibbon
tibbon.com
A friend once had an old MAC that did not support DHCP which he used to loan to friends before the cable guy installed anything. The cable guy always said the same thing - Geez there are a shitload of these old MAC's around but I guess I have to give you a static IP address because these things don't support DHCP (Yippee!).
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
...that's the funniest post I've read in months. I could picture the idiots in front of VMWare. hehe.... lol...
My wife is a producer for the largest NBC affiliate in the nation (and has worked for a variety of other affiliate outlets). Advertising is THE reason networks exist, and your local media outlet will NEVER run a story that may adversely affect the possibility of them generating advertising revenue. If they run a story that says company X is bad, company X will never advertise with them - hence negative story on company X will never run.
Now, your national outlets are a different story - Dateline or national news types will respond differently.
The guy installed it not knowing he was using a computer in vmware... when he rebooted it... he freaked realising he was really in linux... he got his things then left quickly... from what I found, the stuff was complete spyware. Not Cool. I called up road runner to complain, but they hung up on me six times.
I would get a free consult and see what's what. Sounds to me like he, LITTERALY, hacked your system. Even if you signed a form or contract, YOU must click YES to make those aggreements valid. He did that on your behalf. Fraud? Tort? Misrepresentation? It could be a number of things!
Good luck!
Really, though, I mean the cable guy doesn't wanna sit there while you call a lawyer (hey, if everyone could understand the law and it was simple enough, we wouldn't need lawyers) and go through the contract before signing it? I guess you could make him, but it's just poor form.
There really isn't much in the average Time Warner contract that is odd. When I was working at Time Warner in the Business Division, we would even get contract back and the boss would kinda 'haggle' with them and our lawyers on points in the contract. It's not out of the question to ammend the contract. And for the most part every part of the contract was good to start with. Us as employees (and the bosses) really didn't like the idea of screwing people over, all we intended to do with contracts was protect ourselves from retarded lawsuits.
In fact though, when I worked for the Business Division of Road Runner, I never installed ANY software on a person's computer. Most of the time we did just throw them the Cat 5 cable and left. We would hook up 1 computer, or hook it up to their network (but they would have to configure their network). No Spyware, no install CDs, etc... We even carried our own laptops to test everything on, instead of thinking that it was just 'their computer'. Anyway, it's hard to move their computer over to the rack to plug the serial port into the Cisco UBRs...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
with a Linux box acting as the router/NAT gateway (as usual). When nothing worked we made the call to the "help desk".
Phone tech: "Go to 'start/settings...".
Me (interrupting): "Whoa there... we are using a Linux computer as the router."
Long pause. I told him that his DSL modem didn't indicate that there was a connection.
Long pause, then "I don't think the modem works with any operating system other than Windows. Don't you have a computer with Windows there you can connect to the modem?"
Me: "Don't you have a real system administrator there somewhere I can talk to?"
Phone tech in a bright voice: "Yes we do.. just a minute."
He connected me to a clueful admin and we had the system up and running 5 minutes later.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
An Austin-based software company who targets their marketing to broadband ISPs. A friend of mine interned there last year while she was finishing out her journalism degree. Her job, if I recall correctly, was to write (like a journalism, not CS major would write) some of the webpage content and also press releases.
Essentially, their purpose is sort of like the giant installer CD that comes with your sound/video card. See, broadband ISPs, particualarly cable-based ones, don't really have their own install techs. Their guys are sub-contracted. In fact, Roadrunner's guys will have their company name and a "licensed subcontracter for Time-Warner Cable" printed on the side of their van. At least around here, there is a reasonable lead time for install, about a week, although I'm sure RoadRunner would like to speed that up, as it just leads to faster revenue/happier customers.
Anyway, it's like the Video/Sound card CDs in that it's a bunch of useless software in addition to an auto-install program that speeds up the tech's process. Rather than configure the windows PC to pull on DHCP via the NIC, and set the mail client and web browser up, the broadjump software does it for them. It also (like the vid/sound card disc) installs a bunch of other useless cruft. They allegedly had some sort of remote support program, and a MMORPG (Blood pledge, I think... It's really big in Korea) where if the customer signed up through the link on their desktop, the ISP got like a $3/month cut.
So anyway, that's their software.
There is a DANGER in NOT reporting this. This might be only the first step. The next step might be that they change the protocols and instead of using some kind of encapsulated ethernet, they layer the IP in something else that only their software can figure out (and they might encrypt it to be sure of this). I don't expect that to happen tomorrow, but if they don't see at least some resistance to taking over people's peecees now, they will keep moving to more control. They will try to find the point where they can get away with as much as possible because the more they can get away with, the more money they can get out of it. So when they they have IP encapsulated like that, you won't be able to access anything except from that one Windows machine. This would not be hard do. And as soon as they have the market softened up enough to believe they have to install all the software on your Windows computer, they will go for it. Then your Linux/BSD box won't have access anymore.
They might do this for many reasons, all related to them making more money at our expense (in some form). Possible reasons include:
This is why we must:
They didn't need to rewire the insides of my TV to hook up cable. Why the hell should they have to "rewire" my computer's software just to get internet connectivity?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I have AT&T broadband. When the guy arrived, I told him I'd be happy installing it myself. He started into how he couldn't take responsibility, etc. I then told him I was installing it on a Linux system. He got an odd look and then got a form out of his truck that said something to the effect of "I absolve so and so of any responsibility..."
All I had to get from him was the name server address. Funny thing is, he told me at first (just being nice) that he wasn't sure it would work, since the dialing software he had to install was proprietary. He even stuck around just to make sure it'd work.
Of course, it did, but the moral is that the installers are sent out to do a specific job a specific way.
THE GOOD HUMOR MAN CAN ONLY BE PUSHED SO FAR
Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 2F18
Our techs install software for clients on a daily basis and I've often wondered whether it makes some difference who actually clicks to accept the EULAs. In our case we are not employees of the companies which actually bought this software, but are paid to install it by the purchasers. So what is *their* legal liability to a EULA if *I* click on "ok" to some incredibly stupid EULA? Who exactly is being put to a liability here (assuming a EULA actually incurs some liability at all, that is)?
I think that if a company needed to wriggle out from under an overly-restrictive EULA they could certainly use the defense: "None of our people clicked on that agreement... it was a contractor and he didn't have the authority to bind us to a legal contract."
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
So far there are 2 moderations to the parent comment as flamebait (and 1 for insightful and 2 for interesting). The poster does have a valid point. He just happens to be wrong. Being wrong isn't flamebait.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Eventually, I decided it was more cost effective to just *buy* a Linksys rather than spend 8 or more hours getting the things set up correctly plus the case for the extra NICs.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
...smaller companies they can easily push around. I thought about a DSL account, but Qwest, surprise, surprise, is 'incompatible' with Earthlink (at least last time I checked). I swear...it's no wonder that such a small percentage of users have broadband access- pick what you hate dealing with most: too expensive, too invasive, or too much of a hassle. It's all there.
they never said a word when I said I was running linux.
Also, I chose the self install. I can't even remember if it came with a windoze cd-rom. Even if I was running windoze, I would never have installed it. What's the point?
The first software would be run only the first time you get your broadband installed. It would go through the steps of creating an account with a username/password etc. and it may automatically create an email account for you. It would also probably change a few settings (email/DNS server and whatnot) and it may install a "branded" version of IE. This software may also record your MAC address, which is not very nice (this would mean that the service is restricted to the machine with which you run the stupid little program). This is, of course, some stupid Windows program, but you may actually need an account before being able to use the service.
Hint: sometimes this software is just a little wrapper that invokes IE as a COM object and simply displays web pages. I know that SBC does this. To see if that's the case, right-click in the program and see if you get IE's popup menu. You can then bookmark the page to figure out the URL and you can complete the registration from any web browser instead of using the software.
Any software used to initially register the service can of course be removed after registering the service.
The second class of software it might install is PPPoE software (PPP over ethernet). ISPs are increasingly using this to provide DSL and cable service. I don't like this one bit, and I still can't figure out what possible advantage running PPPoE would have at their end except that they may be able to use some older software designed primarily for PPP (eg, RADIUS, mrtg on the PPP server software, etc).
If your ISP uses PPPoE, you'll need PPPoE software, depending on what OS you run. I believe Windows XP comes with a built-in PPPoE client, I know MacOS X 10.2 does, and I know Windows 9x and MacOS 8-9 definitely do not come with PPPoE software. FreeBSD comes with its own PPPoE client, but Linux usually does not (for Linux, you may have to download "Roaring Penguin PPPoE" - hit google).
So, the procedure would be: have a Windows box handy when you get your broadband. Since the software might register your MAC, make sure the Windows box has the same MAC address as your eventual NAT box (eg, swap out the NICs if necessary). Install the software and then figure out what it does. You might be able to use the account-creation stuff without their software like I did, but it's probably no big deal to go through their stupid little wizard. Then you figure out what kind of network setup they're using (whether or not it's PPPoE), configure your NAT appropriately, and drop their software.
If you're new to this, you should know a couple other things: first, you'll want NAT if you have more than one machine. NAT allows you to put all your machines behind your NAT router and your provider only "sees" your NAT box (I'm aware of how ISPs can attempt to detect NAT and how "stealth NAT" can defeat that, so there's no need to go into that here). FreeBSD makes an excellent NAT server that can run on really old hardware (you'll of course need two NICs, but there's no hardware requirements other than that) - the FreeBSD handbook has a section especially on this, and setting up NAT involves simply editing a few lines in /etc/rc.conf (and you'll probably want to install a DHCP server on the inside side of your NAT, and that's only a port install away). It litteraly takes two minutes to set up a FreeBSD NAT box from a default FreeBSD install. There are also several Linux floppy-based distributions that are designed specifically to run NAT.
The second thing you should know is that some ISPs discourage running servers by make your DHCP-assigned IP "very dynamic" (eg, it changes every few days no matter what). If you still want to be able to ssh into your box, you could use something like dyndns.org, or you could simply write a little script that "publishes" your IP on a web site or something whenever your IP changes.
...yes, you agreed to all those EULAs.
I'm suprised no one addressed the real legal question here: can he be held to have agreed to the EULAs that the installer clicked "Yes" on.
The installer was acting as your agent as you allowed him access to your machine for the purpose of installing the software. Any EULA agreement he agreed binds you as well.
This is why the old canard about getting a minor to instll software so that the EULAs are not enforcable against you is just an Internet hoax. As soon as you authorize someone to do something, they become your agent.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
What, you got roadrunner service and paid for them to do their 'installation'. All I ever did (3 times), is have them come, hook up the cable, call in the mac address, and watch the lights go solid. Then they leave, without ever touching the computer. Cheaper and more useful, no spyware.... Self installation only requires that you set up your computer to get an IP through DHCP, that's it..
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I picked up a kit from Time-Warner cable here in Manhattan and set it up myself. I never took the included "Road-Runner" CD out of the envelope and I installed nothing. Plus, I run it through a router and firewall. No desire to risk their security sharing my files with a few thousand fellow subscribers.
I'd recommend doing that anyway. Not because of them trying to extort more cash from you (although that's a damn good reason), but because a lot of the cable modem setups out there have the cable installer guy get the MAC address of your PC's network card to phone into the office. Why? So that not every jackass can hook up an off the shelf cable modem, fire up DHCP, get a lease, and run with it. The DHCP server only gives out an IP to the list of verified MAC addresses. Mine does this.
So if the guy had used the MAC of the router, I'd be unable to connect without the router in the loop. As it stands now, I hid the router (avoiding any cable guy questions), he used the MAC of the PC, and then later I changed the router's WAN MAC to be the same as the PC's MAC. Thus, if the router kicks off one day, I can plug that PC in directly and still have some connectivity for getting technical help on fixing it. Most all SOHO NAT router devices let you change the MAC of the WAN side. Linksys calls it "MAC Cloning" I believe.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Wow.. ignorance runs rampant..
You are so right, Poster boy....
that's what I meant. I keep forgetting the second 'c'. Always fun when debugging.
Best Slashdot Co
Hopefully the consumer watchdog groups around will pick up on this. Groups like Consumer Federation of America and Consumer's Union (publisher of Consumer Reports do some good work. They are a little slow and behind the times in some ways but they are some of the few groups that confront the cable industry, mostly over the issue of rates. They've been involved in the open access issue which has been important.
You could also organize your community to be your own consumer advocates, rather than hope these organizations will do it for you. Since its an Internet related issue you'll have a much easier time organizing because the people you want to reach are mainly online. Get in touch with the public utility commission, city council, the local news media and the cable company itself. Usually these people here nothing at all from the public on issues like this, if they get 10 calls they'll piss in their pants. Mail the local Linux Users Group, Internet Society Chapter, and other computer related fora and suggest people do the same.
I agree. We're always bitching at the poor telemarketing sales reps, when they're not the ones who set their hours, you know? It's not the installer's fault he's got this list from the main office.
If you use a little common sense and explain yourself rather than going ballistic, the installer's going to maybe be won over and give other people options, too, rather than "just doing his job." Alienate him, and he'll start thinking of his customers as a bunch of hassles to be gotten through. That's no good for anyone.
(Seems like cable installers really run a range of attitudes, though. Companies hire out during big install promotions, so you could be dealing with anyone.)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Well I work for an ISP that uses broadjump for our client install CD. Basically broadjump as a company specializes in making these CD's that automatically check the system and do any neccesary steps for getting your broadband connection working.
In our case the CD will install a branded internet explorer/outlook express but it's just something they whiped up with the IEAK tools so nothing too special.
The big step on our network is it will register the MAC address on our customer administration webpage. Broadjump basically builds the CD to the specifications the ISP asks for. They are simply an outsourcer that specializes in these things. On our CD there are basically 3 steps. First the CD checks the machine to make sure it meets the minimum requirements. So it checks the basics like CPU speed, free hard drive space and memory. It also verifies there is an Ethernet card and that it's bound to the TCP/IP protocol with the proper DHCP settings. If it finds any problems with these settings it will give the user the opportunity to automatically fix the error or a description of the problem so you can fix it yourself. The next step is it will install the internet explorer software. After this it does a dhcp release and renew to get an IP. It then contacts the customer administration website to register the MAC address so that the computer can get a valid IP. Up to this point the machine only has a 10.x.x.x IP address which only allows you to connect to the DHCP server, DNS server, and the online customer administration servers. After it successfully registers the MAC it does another release and renew which should give you a real IP address and it uploads a text file log of the whole process to an FTP site. The text file doesn't really contain anything terribly useful and nobody on the helpdesk ever bothers with the things. Nothing evil was included in our text file though I'm sure other ISP's may ask broadjump to include some system configuration details in their implementations. Like I said, for us it's just a log file of the steps the broadjump CD completed. If it got to the point where it succesfully uploaded the file then the connection is obviously working and at that point there isn't going to be much to say in the log file of interest.
All the steps this CD takes can easily be duplicated manually. In fact most of the time if a user calls the helpdesk because they cannot get their new connection up and running we just register the MAC address manually on the website for them. Registering this address automatically is the main reason we include the CD in the self install packages. I do recommend people unfamilear with DHCP and mac addresses to use the CD on our system, there isn't anything terribly mysterious about our broadjump cd though who knows what other ISP's ask them to implement.
In general there are only a few methods of broadband client access that users need to be familear with to get up and running manually without these CD's.
1. Plain DHCP or Static address. Most cable modems work on simple DHCP addresses. Usually the cable ISP will hack their DHCP server to only allocate a certain number of unique IP's through a single cable modem. I know the cable ISP I used to work for did this. After the first 2 IP's included in a consumer package it would just keep sending a DHCP offer of the second IP address to any additional computer that sent a request from that cable modem. The system programmer there hacked a neat little system together using SNMP and DHCP. SNMP trap would be sent to the DHCP server with the sequence number of the DHCP request and serial number of the cable modem.
2. DHCP with Mac address or hostname registration. The ISP I'm working for uses the MAC address to limit the number of IP's you can get. A web interface to register these MAC addresses is available and before you register you are assigned a private IP address in the 10.x.x.x range which only works inside a small internal network segment the DNS, DHCP, and registration server are on. I have also seen ISP's that use the hostname as a unique identifier. Usually this involves setting the name of the computer to be your ISP username to get a valid IP.
3. PPPoE. An extention of the dialup authentication model to broadband connections. Usually you will need some form of client software for these though most routers have built a PPPoE clients into their firmware. MacosX also includes out of the box support for this protocol. You will need to use a username and password to authenticate with the network to allow traffic to pass to the internet. Seems to be most popular with DSL providers probably because of their dialup heritage.
4. Custom client/logon. As seen in the roadrunner cable modem networks. A custom authentication method can be used that usually contacts a server to authenticate the user in a fashion similar in structure to PPPoE. In the case of roadrunner their client has been thouroghly reverse engineered so if you are running an alternate OS you should find a client available to keep you logged in. The proprietary method of authentication will probably become extinct as industry standard solutions are cheaper and easier for broadband providers to implement. If you are saddled by this method of authentication just check around for a third party client. It will probably provide some benefits over the standard client like automatic keep alives so your connection doesn't time out.
ditto. One more comment though. Our network guy told me (and I'm wondering if anyone else has input here) that a router has a MAC in a different range, so the cable company would "know" it was a router, so you are better off cloning your PC's MAC even if you can get an IP.
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
3.5) Booted into Windows long enough to run install CD -- because that activates my account, and lets me set a username/password for the stupid PPPoE software they're running.
4) [as before]
5) Uninstall crap from Windows box, reboot into Linux.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
as an employee of (cable company name removed) i can tell you exactly what it does. it isn't spyware or ad-ware. i predicted when we were first told about this new tool that this story would show up on slashdot. hence i had several questions when i first got it, and even went so far as to contact a member of the development team about it.
the software has 2 major functions-
a) -secure software that allows technical support to connect (by proxy) to a remote machine to perform a myriad of tasks. it can push urls, view TCP/IP related (only) connection info in cases of slow-speed troubleshooting, and even has a function to allow the technician to troubleshoot further by using a remote VNC-like application.
this may sound scary, but read on. the software leaves no open ports, and cannot be remotely-accessed without the user activating the software (at a tech's request). the user must then manually connect to a closed server with an auth code that the tech gives. the tech connects to the server, and may be allowed any of the above tasks if authorized by the user. the customer is told clearly what will be done, and the tech explains what he/she is doing before proceeding. there are strict policies for the use of this software. the technician is not allowed to browse the hard-drive, download/install/troubleshoot any application that is not on the supported list, and is under no circumstances allowed to change anything on the user's computer without explicit permission. i can't stress this enough, in order for any kind of connection or action to take place the software will ask the user if it's ok to proceed with on-screen alerts! the user may break the connection at anytime during the process for any reason by clicking a button on the taskbar.
since the connection takes place through a single closed, proprietary server there is virtually no chance of this application being used as a backdoor. the software is hardcoded with the URL of the server, and can connect ONLY to that server and nothing else. even if someone malicious were to get a hold of the client software, without (password protected) access to the server to generate a short-time auth code for the user to type in, it's useless.
b) -a backup/restore application for tcp/ip and connection property settings. it's configured to save driver files for the NIC and USB modem devices, ip address/subnet mask and DNS property information (in cases where specified), and occasional pings and traces to the dhcp server, gateway, and dns servers along with netstat info. the software catalogues the information bi-weekly, and stores it on the hard-drive. none of this information (save the pings and traces) can be retrieved by anyone outside the system. it's mostly used for cases where the user breaks the connection by altering configuration. the backups allow the user to restore the connection settings to a previous known-working configuration.
that all.
this isn't a data-mining application. privacy was discussed in detail in software-training. i understand being cautious, (hell, i'll admit i was concerned as hell when it was first announced) but i can tell you in all honesty that the bundle on our 'easy installer' cd's contains no spyware. broadjump was contracted to write the software specifically for our use, and no 'add-on' click-tracking or cookie-scouring was allowed.
the client software is ONLY in the hands of tier-2 and above, highly-skilled, highly trained and QA/policy monitored technicians. the broad-jump software is a means to an end for technical-support. if you've had any experience supporting win9x systems you know that windows can be downright retarded when it comes to connection management. it has been an invaluable tool when faced with users who doesn't know their right mouse-button from their left. thus far it's been a huge success, customers seem to love it, it allows us to do all the work, while they just watch and keep tabs or relax as they see fit.
i knew there would be a few who flipped out over this application. but really, the only people who get up in arms about it are those who don't need it. if you're smart enough to understand what this software does, you should be smart enough to understand that there is a genuine need for it. it's the people who call tech support complaining about error 691's with their caps lock key on, or who've lost the address bar in IE who need it. if you're not comfortable with the application, uninstall it.
the odometer lives!
So yes, your router may have a MAC in a different range from your NIC, as will your neighbour's NIC (unless you use the ISP-provided NIC). Of course, if your NIC and router are both made by the same company (LinkSys, maybe?), they could have MACs in the same range.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
You also have to remember, we (the ./ community) tend to be a lot less trusting and paranoid than the rest of the world (rightly or wrongly), and I really don't think most people care about spyware. Given that we're quite the minority, I don't necessarily think the company is so *evil.* If they won't let you have your modem install without the stuff, it's more likely due to inflexible bureaucrats than any conspiracy.
That said, I hate telemarketers and do hold people responsible for the jobs that they hold. Are the Phillip Morris scientists not responsible for their lack of integrity just because "their boss told them so?" Arguements of "I was following orders" don't fly too well.
I would have to be on the verge of death from starvation to work as a telemarketer. If then.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I like it really much because its provided by my landlord. We are roughly about 150 households that shares a 2/mbit line and since not everyone uses the internet its pretty fast. I get typically around 500kbit/s so i dont complain. Best of all it doesnt have anything between me and the internet. It had a proxy/firewall at first but all the complaints about closed ports made them take the unbelievable sane decision of completely removing the firewall. All i have to have is an os with a DHCP client and ethernet. This enables almost every existing OS today and doesnt exclude anything.
Im all satisfied but im lucky, most people here in sweden use Telia and they suck hard.
HTTP/1.1 400
Zonealarm:
Broadjump Client Foundation: access internet: never.
Done.
-Styopa
As explained to me, PPPoE requires more "overhead" per packet than plain Ethernet. That, in addition to the dial-up-like delay and inability to keep an IP address causes me to go right to the "little guy" ISP if at all possible. I frankly would prefer cable over DSL with PPPoE... It's all about squeezing every last dime from the customers.
I don't even have a bootable Windows install on my box at home. When I called up to order cable service, I told them "I'm running Linux." The reply? "We can't support that, you'll have to support yourself." "That's fine, I know what I'm doing." Tech shows up, and his form says "Windows XP". So I told him no, not XP, Linux. He was like, ok, I want to learn about this Linux thing. I typed in EXACTLY ONE COMMAND: "dhclient eth0". It proceeded to get an IP address and work without a hitch. (This was with TW RoadRunner service.)
At least they allow the support yourself option, unlike the early days I heard about from other people I knew, where they had to plug in a Windows box just for the install, otherwise the installer will say "no, we can't do that!" The spyware they could've gotten away with (and probably did) then... geez, it's pretty sad.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
The point is that most internet users don't even know what an IP is. They don't care about linux, and they probably aren't even aware that there could be software doing "bad things" on their PC. These users are having spyware forced upon them in two ways:
This is a serious problem. Let's actually discuss ways to resolve it for everyone, rather than trying to make ourselves look clever.
TW Cable guy came to install broadband on my hex-wife's computer. It was an older box I put together, and the floppy drive and CD wouldn't read his installer. I tried to talk him through some things over the phone, but as with most of these installers, he just followed his list. I convinced him to leave the NIC installed and I would install the software later that night.
I showed up later and cleaned the CD-ROM, but the floppy was toast (drivers were on a floppy). So, following normal geek instinct, I accessed the web using the existing dial up, downloaded just the drivers for the NIC, fired everything up, and my daughter was jumping for joy within 5 minutes. I never did install the CD software.
So the next time the cable guy shows up to install something, disable the CD and floppy and do it yourself later.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I NEVER let anyone install any software on my company computers or my home computers that deal with broadband.
This approach may get you permanently relegated to the slow lane of the Internet, if that (hint: what do you think your AOL or Earthlink connection does, especially upstream? Do you think they ignore all that nifty consumer buyer profile data they see pass through web proxies and such?)
As a Cox.net consumer and manager of a regional broadband service provider (not cox - we service flyover country:-) ), I'd suggest a better alternative:
- supply a stock Wintel PC next to your cable modem/DSL/wireless DSL termination. Win2K or WinXP are probably necessary.
- use the stock machine for the installer to load his garbage on
- use the machine for customer support calls
- let it crunch keys or run some other distributive application
- replace it in the link for normal operation using your router/internet sharing device of choice (e.g. RouterOS, Linux dual-nic, Linksys firewall router, etc)
Just make sure you get the details down of how your service provider authenticates you and let you on his network - PPPoE, DHCP, MAC-based authentication, etc. and make sure your router solution is configured to do the same.
Yea, I hate spyware and won't use it on my network either...
*scoove*
Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have this software on their computers is pretty high.
If this is a local provider, break the story to the local news media (tv/newspaper/radio.. whoever will listen). Do some research as to how this garbage spyware will invade customers' privacy. And let the media know that this software can be removed easily. Maybe that'll get the word out.
There is no technical reason to send an installer to install either DSL or a cable modem. It costs the cable company between $200 and $500 to send a truck to your house. Therefore, you have to conclude that the ONLY reason they sent him was so that he would install that software on your computer.
Most cable and DSL companies are doing everything they can to keep from having to roll a truck to do an install. So, you must conclude that getting that software on your machine is worth at least $300 a year to your cable company.
You have to assume that it is spyware of the worst sort.
Stonewolf
- A Note to Current SBC Pacific Bell DSL Internet Access Service Customers:
So it looks like SBC is preparing to shove the Broadjump spyware/adware down the throats of their existing customers. SBC customers may want to look into switching to CovadKeep an eye on your inbox and mailbox this winter for information about your SBC Yahoo! DSL upgrade software.
Upgrading is easy and improves your service without interfering with four important aspects of your membership. Your email address, your price, your billing method, and the speed of your DSL Internet connection all stay the same as they are now while you get all the great benefits of SBC Yahoo! DSL.
We'll that could very well be true since I am not a MAC fanatic.
But Apparently it worked, because neither his friends, nor the cable guy knew anything about MAC's either - so the myth would have propagated.
(shhh don't tell anyone...)
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
Now techs on the phone is another problem. Back when I had cable, I quickly discovered that the national helpdesk for RR was staffed by a bunch of dicks. I called them to let them know about a case of router flap that had been going on for over a week. They started giving me the wrong around about my "Windows" box being misconfigured. I informed him that I own no Microsoft products. To that he replied that everyone runs Microsoft. I laughed and said that I was one person that didn't. He asked what I ran and I replied I used a Mac. He then said something to the effect, "don't you know? Microsoft owns Apple". He also said that he couldn't see why anyone would want to use such a worthless operating system. I was starting to get a little pissed at this point. I asked if he'd say the same about my Linux boxes or my Suns. He said Sun is dead. Microsoft was buying them out. He also said that Linux was a hacker's tool and that he could have me arrested for using it. .... Now being a Mac user, I know what it's like to have my OS insulted. You don't insult a Mac guru's OS. You don't insult a Linux guru's OS either. You damned sure don't insult both in the same paragraph. If he had been there in person I would have firmly planted a Sun keyboard in his ass sideways. Since he wasn't all I could do was cuss at him and demand to speak to his super. He refused and hung up on me.
Well, I returned the favor. <g%gt; I always record my tech support calls. I dubbed a couple copies of the tape and certified USPSed them to Cox, RR, and my state AG. I also included a letter that indicated who all received a copy of the tape, summarized the coversation, gave a time and date for the call, back ground to counter the ill-informed knowledge, and finally notified them in writing of the router flap. About 4 days later, I noticed that the router flap had been fixed. A few days letter I received a letter from Cox apologizing for the problems and promising to investigate further. The next day I received a letter from RR apologizing for their employee's action and informing me that the tech was no longer with RR. Oh happy day. :-)
I've found a couple tricks when calling a tech support line that might help you. Always start off the conversation in a calm voice. Don't act pissed. Stay calm and collected. Ideally you would do this even if you felt you needed to ask for the tech's super. State your name, where you're calling from, and on behalf of what company. This is a good thing to do even if it's for you home line. Pretend the loss of access if affecting you at work. "My name is John Wayne; I'm the Network God at Such n Such Unv in Smallville, St; I'm calling to inform of that you have a case of router flap that is causing us problems downstream.". Be concise and to the point. If you think you need to drop some techy stuff to make them feel you know what you're talking about, drop big things only. Don't jargon-drop little stuff. Spend more of your time keeping everything else you say technically accurate. Don't let yourself slip up. Stay calm. Always stay calm. Say "I'm calling to inform you of a DDoS attack coming from one of your customers" not "You're DDoSing us! We're gonna sue! Our routers are melting. We're melting. ARGH!". The latter makes a bad impression. Try to maintain control of the conversation. Don't let them BS you into doing weird shit. State the facts up front. Tell them exactly what you've done to diagnose the problem. This is how I get hard drives replaced without all the reformatting bullshit. When I know the HD is bad I call them and tell them I've low-leveled it, checked jumpers, tried it in another machine, and run two bad blocks checks on it; here at the results. I've covered all their bases with the facts. All they have to do next is RMA it. Good luck!
Even better: Use a minimal base install of linux with no X.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Well, my cable modem says on the box that it has a max speed of 38 Mbit, well over the 10 Mbit NICs capability. Not very forward thinking...but hey, 640K ought be be enough for anybody! ;-)
Only thing I have ever seen on the cluelesses machines with Roadrunner is their Road Runner Medic. They usually won't install it either unless they're asked. They push self installs for almost everything. Even cable convertor boxes.
I have Road Runner and as soon as I can get DSL I am getting it. First off, I never cal tech support until I try everything I know. Then when I do call and first level says first delete your network connections and recreate them I say I already did that and if he says do it again I say let me talk to your manager. Now it seems they know me and they just send me to second level on the spot. Then whenever I detect a problem on their end (DHCP server not responding, random connection problems, thier cable modem "updates" not working(from the modems web page)), I have to practically jump up and down on one hand upside down to get their attention. One time I had a guy come and check my levels and he saw I had a splitter in the line between TV's and the cable modem. He insisted that you should not split a cable modem dedicated jack and I told him YOU GUYS DID IT! (it's true they did). I would love to rewire it myself with a DC6 and a dual jack with one for the TV's and one for the cable modem, but I can't find a DC6. Anyone know where I could find one? I would love to do it and see if he was right. My most favorite one though is when I broke down and called them to run a cable from my basement to where the cable modem is and they drilled a hole in my FLOOR! I ASKED and PAID for a WALL JACK. Funny thing is when they came to re-do it, they only had to drill the hole about 5 inches over from where they did drill it and it only took about a minute to fish the cable up thru the wall (internal wall, no insulation). They guy was in so much of a hurry, he could not do it right! All I say is fine. If you can't do it right, then you wil come back and do it right again. There's never time to do it right the first time but there's always time to do it after it was screwed up the first time.
Gorkman
If you're concerned about spyware, be very careful about who's DNS server you list in your PC.
Should your service provider wish, he can capture Ethernet traffic specific to DNS inquiries and compile some interesting information without even needing you to install and use his client software.
We used this approach at my previous job (dealing with employee security and network use compliance... great job, eh? *sigh*) We had web proxy operating but had an occasional employee who bypassed the proxy and figured he could avoid detection as he surfed his favorite porn or gambling site. By tracking his DNS lookups (many of the sites had hidden references to sextracker.com which made it easy to spot), we'd take his URL of choice and map the DNS to monster.com or hotjobs.com - giving him the clue that continued use might be an opportunity to work elsewhere.
Sniffed properly, your provider will obtain an IP address and the Internet address being looked up (e.g. sextracker.com). He can insert the sniffer in line with the DNS server(s) to simplify data capture (rather than have to deal with inspection on a bigger network).
Should he limit DNS lookups on the same segment as his nameserver, you may be able to avoid this spying by operating your own DNS (e.g. on your dual-NIC Linux firewall) or by using an alternate DNS server.
*scoove*
1.) The Installer checks your cable lines to see what the forward and return levels are, to see if they'll work with your exisiting drop at your house-box. If everything's ok, they'll run an extra outlet, take it to the house box, and split it off as the first splitter in your box. If it's not ok, they'll re-hang or re-bury the drop, then run your AO.
2.) The Cable installer calls in the MAC address of your cable modem, so that DOCSIS can authorise your account.
3.) We plug in the cable modem in, and make sure that the Cable Modem actually lights up. Once that Cable Modem is lit, you can get a DHCP address with any DHCP client.
4.) We'd run the RoadRunner disk...it'd set up the IEAK Customizations, set up email addresses, and then do a series of tests to ensuer that everything was ok. This included a ping test, a DNS test, and tweak your TCP/IP settings for broadband.
Basically, once they bring it in, DOCSIS provides the authentication (if you're on a system that uses DOCSIS). They shouldn't need to run any software on your computer that provides authentication--it's hardware based.
I disable sigs...do you?
I can see spyware getting loaded up on your computer if you're stuck getting your broadband from these clowns, but overall I've had very little hassle dealing with Cox.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
I say inform your local newspaper or television news station.
Your ISP and local TV station are very likely owned either by the same media conglomerate as your ISP, or another that is pulling the same stunt. If you live in anything larger than a village, the same is probably true of your local newspaper.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I moved about a month ago, and moved from DSL to cable, and thought I'd share my experience with people.
The guy came over, hooked up the cable modem, and watched as I ran about 50 feet of cable from it, around the back of the apartment, and through the window of the office (the only cable jack was on the opposite side of the house to the computers). When I finished he asked which computer had to be set up. "That one" I said, pointing to a small box hidden under the desk. It is a p133 that has run my website on 48 megs of ram for the last 5 years. "But not really that one," I finished.
See I have a nifty little firewall from netmaster (was merilus) which is a full computer on a pci card that uses the host computer only for power via the PCI bus. When I explained this to him he just kinda nodded.
"Don't worry," I told him, "I'll take care of it all." "All I need from you is the end of a cat5 cable." He went back to the cable modem and did the initialization or whatever he needed to do, and I overheard him say to head office something about "no, this guys going to set it all up."
I had already set up the card for DHCP, so it was a matter of replacing the DSL modem cat5 cable and putting in the new one from the cable modem. I borrowed a pen from the slightly stunned installer and reset the system, waited the 40 or 50 seconds for the system to come back up, and then pinged out from my linux workstation.
I mentioned that I worked for the last few years with a networking company and he said "well, you know a lot more than me then." No shit was the un-stated response. He left after having touched nothing more than the cabel modem.
Moral of the story: If you don't want them to touch anything (and any moderately competant geek shouldn't), don't let them! All that needs to be done on a cable modem install is to plug in the external cable into your firewall (you DO have a firewall right?) and for you to either reboot it or renew the DHCP lease. You can set up all the @HOME proxy info if you want, but it's not needed.
"Honda just started a thing where they put a GPS reciever/transmitter in your car. They track everywhere you go and how long you're there (when you're stopped).
Say you stop at AM/PM, they know that you are a user of Arco gasoline. Say you stop at a Michales craft store, they know that you are into crafts. Perhapse you stop at Costco - they could surmise that you have a large family.
This, along with the ability to record your conversations in the car are used to find out what your into, but its anonymous, of course. All that they use that information for is to customize advertisements on your car stereo just for you.
They also track who is in the car with you, because they is useful demographic information to help them with their targeted advertizing.
You don't have anything to hide, so that wouldn't bother you, would it?
So - are you wondering when you can get one of these new Hondas?
No?
Aunt Mary, just replace Honda with Microsoft and/or your Internet service provider.
You DO know that you've ALREADY agreed to this on your computer, right?"
This has worked for me 100% of the time. They get creeped out every time.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Hm, the physical layer of the DSL line can just be described as a MODEM kind of thing. But there are other layers in the DSL box.
Right. It includes a MODEM, and other stuff. The Alcatel ANTs, for instance, support packet-over-ATM with up to 8 virtual circuits, so there's an ATM layer. Then there's an Ethernet layer. And it has a whole internet stack and an HTML server to provide a virtual console for configuration.
That's a bit more than your typical MODEM, even in these days of peripherals smarter than the mainframes of a decade ago.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I second that. I got cable from Comcast in '97. Back then, they sent out a hardware team to run the coax and set up the modem, and then a software guy showed up a little later to set up the computer.
The software guy didn't even get one foot in the door. I told him, "Gimme the config sheet and be on your way." I changed my TCP/IP settings in the Control Panels and the server addresses in Claris Emailer, and I was in business. No spyware, no stupid Comcast-branded, older-than-current version of IE to contend with.
I dropped Comcast about a year ago when I became dissatisfied with the increasing restrictions on their service. I replaced them with DSL from Speakeasy, and had just as painless a transition without installing a byte of their software, either (I'm not even sure a CD came in the box with the DSL modem).
~Philly
The point is that most internet users don't even know what an IP is
This is true, and I'll play devil's advocate a bit (since I don't see many arguing the service provider's view - even though I personally and professionally object to this level of intrusion, and also perceive an EULA to be rather unenforcable).
They don't care about linux, and they probably aren't even aware that there could be software doing "bad things" on their PC
Exactly. In fact, it gets much worse. They will demand you do things to them that are fundamentally bad... such as a medium-sized business we recently switched over that had been running a T1 with public addresses on every desktop, confidential filesharing servers (with public IPs) with IRC, RPC, NNTP, and thirty other services running, and absolutely *zero* firewalling/security/etc.
They got replaced with a rackmount Mikrotik router system and were immediately firewalled, RFC 1918 standard private IP network, etc.
Their response? Forget about thank you - nothing about complaints that they can't see things from home anymore (no, they won't buy VPN software - think cheap), can't run personal websites on desktops, open relaying on their Exchange server was "broken", etc. Oh, and to explain this to them? "We don't want to know about those details. We just want it to work the way it did before without spending more money."
Users will insist on being stupid about IP, security, etc. (I only mention this because it is part of the mindset you need to understand to see where the service provider is going to come from).
The tech did the EULA for them without consulting them
Come on... do you expect these folks to be experts about business policy? We train our guys to provide option A or B - A = installed our way, B = no install, goodbye and good luck. 90% of the customers are never an issue, but the 10% "I design websites, so therefore I'm a networking expert" types micromanage everything and work hard to screw it all up.
The contract demands the software to be installed. This is a serious problem.
Yes, and back to my clueless business example, here's why they insist upon it:
"Every time you users download something, reconfigure something, whatever, you dick up your IP settings and make me spend $50 per customer service telephone call to fix it."
By loading this software, I ensure that my configuration will probably stay on top of all the nonsense you put in there, and I can actually have a clue what is going on when you manage to screw it up still.
The alternative is $500/month broadband (minimum...), or zero support (which doesn't work, btw - people would still blame the service provider when a tornado obliterates their home, destroys their PC, and "their Internet doesn't work.")
Let's actually discuss ways to resolve it for everyone, rather than trying to make ourselves look clever.
It really comes down to one of two options:
1. Do it yourself. Know how to do all of this stuff as good or better than the service provider (and fake like you're an idiot customer with the spare Wintel box next to your connection for when you have to demonstrate the service provider has a problem).
2. Let your service provider do it all for you. Don't care to learn IP? Don't want to accept responsibility for screwing up your IP service when you load that stupid "dialup optimization" software you saw in a pop-up box, on top of a broadband PPPoE connection? (usually also spyware... ugh) Be my guest... but understand that decision comes with a price. And understand that price usually includes your service provider getting to capture all that data on you, in exchange for protecting you from your own stupidity.
The only other solution I can see is a Spyware-Free certification standard for service providers and software vendors. Establish a neutral entity, develop criteria for membership and verification, and allow people to promote that their product/service is compliant and recognized by the organization. Sort of a BBB approach to the issue...
*scoove*
What he means is capitalism is really what naturally happends when you give people things to trade with.
As yes while all of us can remember some time in their lives when they made a short-sighted decision when it came to trading. It really isn't the trading itself that is short-sighted. Like would be kinda like saying breathing is short-sighted. You can't argue it either way, execpt to say umm uhhh hu what?
Just be aware that all the "Add/Remove Software" thing does is call uninstall program the program registered. There is no guarantee that a particular program a) registers an uninstall program when it installs and b) actually removes all components when it uninstalls.
The cake is a pie
TimeWarner/RoadRunner in Tampa Florida has software, but they're usually too lazy to install it, which is a good thing. They used to have the required authentication software, but that's a different animal.
TimeWarner/AOLCable in the Tampa area is actually RoadRunner. You can switch providers, save $5/month, and use the AOL auth software. Unfortunately it's an obnoxious set of popups and banners that drives me absolutely nuts. From what I understand that's all they do.
Charter Communications in the Los Angeles area *DOES* have a spyware package, which sounds like what you have.. My girlfriend was putting in the order for my cablemodem, and they asked her "What OS are you using." The phone was handed off to men, and I told them Linux. They aren't allowed to even install with a Linux machine.. I had used on e on their network 2 weeks prior, so I knew it wasn't a technical problem. I finally gave in, and told them Win98, and brought a workstation back to the house for them to see when they installed..
The Charter installer went to put the CD in to start installing software, and I told him "NO!" Then I asked what it was.
Funny thing, I guess I made it clear enough that I only want a connection. They never even gave me my Email account info. Not like it matters, I never checked my TimeWarner/RoadRunner Email in the years that I had it.
Their spyware wouldn't have done much good. They would have put it on a freshly installed 98 box, which would have gotten formatted later. I took that machine down, and put up my Linux firewall, and reassembled my home network (3 machines, for 3 people. Imagine that. hehe)
It is obnoxious that they feel it's ok to push their software on you, but it's just as obnoxious as buying a new laptop with their choice of OS and software packages, that you're good enough to pay for. Did I really want WinXP Home and MSOffice 6000? Nope. But I don't have a choice.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
... under PIPEDA. (http://www.privcom.gc.ca/).
By law, federal companies have to make you aware and get your consent in order to obtain any personal information from you that is not required for the business transaction. (Provincial companies will have to start doing this as of 2004.) They must also tell you what they are using the information for, tell you exactly what information they have on you, and allow you to revoke consent at any time. There is still some fuzziness around whether this must be opt-in or opt-out, but they do need to make their privacy policies clear up front, as well as give you contact information for their privacy officer so that you can report abuse. (And they must look into all reports in a timely manner.)
You probably will not get money for this, but you could effect change in their practices to make them comply. (The privacy commissioner invokes legal action as a last resort.)
Of course, that's just in Canada.
I can spell. I just can't type.
Not really. The 38 Mbit limit is based on the laws of physics and the last-mile wiring, and will cost a fortune to break that barrier. Chosing a 10 Mbit card over a 100 Mbit card will save a few dollars.
unless your cable Internet connection is saturating them. And it isn't.
True, it isn't. Not yet.
Depending on quite what you signed I'd say the Eula wasn't signed for you and didn't apply to you.
Possibly the cable installer has actually broken the Eula by transfering the software to someone else.
Eitherway you haven't agreed to not reverse-engineering the spyware. It would be nice then to keep sending them back reports on your computers activity that are completely bogus if enough people did this then all their data would be pretty worthless.
I'm sure most people dmake up names etc when they are asked to give out personal information (income gender age job etc) to get a service.
The general tactic is its even better to give wrong data than it is to refuse to give any at all. As this way you are invalidating anything other people are conned into giving.
When the Charter Cable guys came over to install the new cable modem (they gave me a self-install kit when I changed from PCI-Card Cable Modem [win98 only] to external), the pulled out a laptop with Windows 2000 Pro on it to log in and run a quick test. When they were done, they asked me to boot up my Windows machine and I just smiled, shook my head and said, "Nope. Debian." They responded, "Cool! Do you know what you're doing?" When I responded in the affirmative, they moved out of the way, and ooohed and aaaahed over my shoulder when I had it set up in 2 minutes flat and explained to them all of the cool stuff (MIME defanging, spam-filtering, etc) that I was doing on it.
They told me I could run any service I wanted on my box (upstream is throttled to 128k anyway), as long as I wasn't competing with Charter and running an ISP out of my basement!
My buddy, who lives 20 miles away, on the other hand has to suffer with AT&T. They installed 50 MB of who-knows-what on his system, and made him sign an agreement that basically said he's not allowed to run anything "cool" on his system: he can browse, ftp, and e-mail, and that's about it!
Earthlink, who handles support for my Charter account, even has some limited Linux support, though I've yet to find them terribly helpful, or even very necessary.
Other people I know who have ISPs that do portscans looking for services merely block the portscanner with their firewall, and they run what they want.
dochood
He doesn't say, but it might be the case that he is in a "one-party state" - ie, a state which has laws that only one party to the conversation needs to be aware that the communications are being recorded, and in most cases, that only means the party doing the recording...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
They'll tell you in the pamphlets their service works with Linux. When you call tech support, you find out none of the tech support staff has even heard of Linux and refuse to even talk to you.
It would not cost them a $50 support call to answer direct technical questions from experienced users if they would route questions properly based on their content. For example, if a user calls up, explains that he has changed network cards and asks to have the MAC entry changed in their database, it is not effective customer service to work through a thirty minute script only to end with an escalation to second line support when a direct bump to second line could have finished the call in one minute! (Example from my experience, obviously)
I once got in the middle of a thread on the MindSpring customer-service newsgroups and posted a suggestion that they institute an "experienced customer" line. The idea being you get certified through them that yes, you really know what you're doing (maybe by taking the same tests of proficiency that their employees take?) and after that you're given access to a support line staffed by people who don't insist on going through the "is it turned on?" parts of the script. Who talk to you as though you have a clue, in other words. Hell, they could not only make money on it by charging a token fee (maybe $5 per month), they could use it as a pool to recruit new tech folks.
Basically, phone centers need to program their script bots with something akin to keyword matching to determine when the caller is not going to be served by a cookbook of click heres and tab theres. In my experience, it is luck of the draw whether you get a first line rep who knows their stuff or is just following the script, and there are a lot of gradations between first and second line that could be subdivided more efficiently. Can it really be that cost ineffective to provide decent, non-irritating support to all levels of users, as opposed to just the clueless ones?
It's all about metrics. If you don't force the techs to follow the same script, you can't effectively compare their performance and weed out the ones that aren't making good numbers. (The fact that you can't do that short of actually listening in on a tech's calls from time to time, we'll ignore for now.) ISO 9000 can be a good thing in its place; likewise Six-Sigma. This kind of cookie-cutter tech support is the worst possible application of both, but management just sees a documented, reproducible process and finds it Good.
-- Old Man Kensey
Okay, forget about the EULAs - you didn't agree to it, so no biggie, but what about this - did any of those submit buttons he hit send your new email address into the wonderful world of spam-lists? I bet it did. Eeek.
> Not really. There are lots of contracts that
> refer to other contracts and "incorporate" their
> terms "by refrence".
I don't believe that this works for a contract of adhesion.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Tell them you're getting your PC next week, and thank him at the door.
RANT MODE!
I worked a short stint installing hsi back in the day, and I had to deal with smug pricks like the lot of you every goddamn day. Here's a few tips:
1. The installer doesn't give a fuck about how many computers you have.
2. The installer could care less about your 31337 Sun cluster or god damn Univac in the garage.
3. The installer gets really annoyed when self-righteous geek zealots make their jobs difficult.
"Hey, lets all guffaw at the college kid who can't figure out my ereet customized csh shell on my fucking VAX". Oh, wait, what's that? You want broadband? You're tired of dialup? Well then leave me alone and let me do my job, or next time do a self-install. Don't need a NIC? Tell me. Would rather configure the system yourself? Fine, tell me. I'm not out to cripple your machine, I am trying to get you connected to teh intarweb. The faster I get the hell out of your house, the faster I can get to the next unfortunate ex-AOL schmuck running WinME on an E-Machine whose hand I'll need to hold for three freaking hours because they can't figure out god damn Outlook Express.
Don't try to impress me with your gigabit switches or Cisco PIXes. I've seen it all and could care less. If I could have tied a cable modem to a brick with a length of cat5 and hurled it through some of your living room windows with a note reading "Self Install Kit", I would have.
Oh! Guess what else??
I'm a geek too. I run fourteen machines in my bedroom. Five FreeBSD servers, two Windows 2000 servers, two OpenBSD firewalls, a Sun box, and an array of Linux, W2K, and BSD workstations. I loved turning the tables on Slashdot-esque geeks who thought they could get a kick out of playing 'confuse the installer'. Some of my peers were even geekier, and have since moved on to real jobs maintaining the fat pipes companies like Comcast, AT&T, etc. rely on to move their bits.
Moral? Give the installers a break.
END RANT MODE
And even if it did, the contract you agreed to when you arranged to have the cable service installed would have to provide actual references for the included EULAs telling you where you could get copies. "Anything we feel like sticking on the install CD is hereby included by reference" won't work.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
The point of a firewall to to stand between your PC and the Internet to stop undesired connections from the outside world onto your local network. You haven't stopped that at all unless you make all packets go in one NIC and out another before getting to your local network.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
There's always some overhead in filtering packets. I don't get unacceptable download times. All of the speed tests I've run have been acceptable.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Speakeasy DSL, if its available, is a good provider. They "allow" and support Linux boxes, and even provide their own gaming servers.
I haven't checked on their P2P policies, but I'd be suprised if they're draconian.
No OS or software requirements, self-install is an option, and the tech people have been very friendly, available, and intelligent.
And, currently, they're giving away an XBOX or PS2 with new accounts. Granted, you have to buy the DSL bridge for about the same amount, so its more or less a rebate, but still.
If you sign up, tell 'em Kevin Klinemeier (userid Klinemeiers) in Seattle sent you.
-Zipwow
And to clarify: NO I am NOT a Speakeasy rep. I just like their services.
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
Of course this is evil. It is a company doing something that it damn well knows will be offensive to the other party, but trying to sneak it through by willfully keeping that other party in the dark (by having their agent click through the EULAs) or intimidation once discovered.
Think about it this way: if they truly had nothing to hide, they wouldn't hide. The company wouldn't hesitate to admit the fact that it's collecting data, and what data it is collecting, up front. Just like a Nielson ratings household. The mere fact that they go to such lengths to hide the presence of this software screams to a "guilty mind."
As for your analogy to the sniper, that's obscene. I'm horny, where's your sister (or underage daughter), I want to fuck her. She may call it rape, but hey it's not like I shot 14 people, killing 10, so she can't complain. I mean, it's not like I KILLED her and 9 of her friends, now is it?....
Shocked? Good, now maybe you'll understand that ethical behavior is absolute, not relative. In fact, in this specific case the data collection may be more evil than the cold-blooded murder of 10 people since the information collected could potentially be used to identify suitable victims of a serial rapist/murder. It would not be the first time that databases have been used in this way, and in fact any ethical database designer knows this and will go to some effort to prevent "find me a victim" type queries.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Sorry matey, MacTCP on System 7 didn't.
In fact, I'm not so sure that MacTCP had DHCP *at all*. I never ever got it working, even when it said it was set to get an address automatically. Perhaps it was BOOTP?
Uninstallers don't HAVE to uninstall anything. Uninstalling various spyware-infested Windows apps, often leave the spyware behind (duh...).
I wonder if Ad Aware detects this app?
You go to the store where they give you a box with software and a cable modem. You install it yourself.
EXCELLENT!
For those who really don't remember (or who followed a different track to geekdom), executing that line on your TRS-80 Color Computer would make ROM cartridge programs run twice as fast, and bump up your BASIC program speed by about 50%. Of course, you'd better POKE 65496,0 when you're done, so your 'half-fast' cassette recorder would work again.
It wasn't all that noticeable with a single machine, but I once had a Beowulf cluster of these babies, and...
We have been reading and discussing privacy in class at Portland State University. I ran across this and might give you an idea of what you as a cable subscriber could do to try to keep some privacy.
Check out
The Cable Communications Policy Act of 1984.
My book explains it this way; "A cable subscriber must be informed of any personal data collected (and when), and the use and availability there will be of such information."
I am no lawyer, but there might be something to this.. Since it is on the books.
When the cable installers (there were two, one was in training) showed up, I took the offensive and was showing them how the installation was going to go. Their original plan had them using the ~20 year old existing coax, drilling a hole in my floor and yanking the coax up through that. No. You'll be running fresh coax (and my wirecutters proved the point) and be pulling it up through the wall. We argued about that for a bit, as they insisted it was impossible to pull through the wall. I pointed to the network cables going up through the wall, and they changed their mind.
Then they were just going to drill a hole in the wall and pull the cable through. No. Wall plate. So they go out and get a wall plate from the truck. (they have this stuff, they just don't want to USE it!) So he makes a hole in the plate and is preceeding to pull the coax THROUGH the plate. No. "Have you EVER done this before? Get a feed-through connector!" I could see in his eyes, "crap... that's TWO more connections I'm going to have to crimp..." And so we finally have a good hardware installation, and they cut me a nice 5ft length of coax to jump between the wall and the modem. The guy has a nic card in his hand and starts trying to find the computer. Heh, laptop, fewl. He gets out his magic CD and I simply say "No." He realized long before this that I wasn't worth fighting with and just had me initial that I had refused their software install.
I can't claim total victory though. They assured me the modem would take a few hours to sync up, and that they couldn't stay to make sure it was working, so I let them leave. Half an hour later I got impatient and called the service number, and they assured me they were required to stay until the sync light was on. Owell. A few minutes into the call the sync came on and all was well anyway.
Since then I have talked with numerous people that have allowed the techs to install the software, and it's really annoying. I don't know what all covert things it is capable of, but it has the obvious effect of messing with your browser by changing the animation icon to an animation of the company's logo, and of course changes your home page.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Maybe I just haven't bothered to look hard enough, but I didn't know there were any other Open Source name servers out there. djbdns doesn't count and we both already know that so don't bother with beating that dead horse.
Democrat delenda est
So, I didnt end up with that software, which is good, but in the process I also didnt get a username or login for email or web space.
Course, I didnt get a copy of the sheet I signed stating that I refused the software, so I dont knwo if it was the truth or not.
The two things that PPPoE seems to accomplish are to give the telcos (or other CLECs) and ISPs a bit more flexibility about where to put routers - it makes it easier to terminate the PVC on a shared router at the telco POP instead of requiring either an ATM connection to the ISP or an ISP-owned router at the POP. The authentication features also makes it a bit easier to turn off service to people if they haven't paid their bills, for the case where the telco/CLEC is providing a shared router at the POP. (If the ISP has a PVC all the way back to their router, they can do the same thing by disabling the PVC in their router.)
Mostly it's ugly.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
With Win98 and its relatives like Win98 SE, if your TCP/IP is set for DHCP (as opposed to having a static address), and you've got a DHCP lease that hasn't expired, you need to use the WinIPcfg tool to release the DHCP lease and renew it. If your PC is a laptop that you carry between two offices and your home LAN, you end up doing this a lot.... If one of your operating modes is to set the PC for static addressing (as opposed to using DHCP where your DSL router's dhcpd always gives you the same address), then of course you've got to go through the Control Panel, change the settings, reboot, yadda yadda.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If you're running PPPoA, your box is probably doing som e variation on bridging - taking your Layer 2 packets and shoving them over the PVC, which is a perfectly silly thing to do with an ATM connection. The alternative would be to terminate the Layer 2 connection and route the packets over the ATM PVC, saving a layer of protocol wrapper overhead and making the whole thing a lot simpler.
[Lots of disclaimers about this being my own opinions, not AT&T's...] AT&T's business DSL service does routing. Some of the services are static address, some are dynamic address, and it's possible we've introduced something else recently that does bridging, but for a while it's been routing. (Cable modem is an entirely different game, and depending on your local distributor, it's often an ugly and stupid game as well....)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I appreciate your idealism. I really do, but I'm not going to give you a free pass to call capitalism inherently evil. Capitalism goes a long way towards stimulating invention and progress. Broadband internet access is one such example. Yeah, the world could be better, but we aren't going to see it by growing dredlocks and setting the Space Needle on fire.
such as a medium-sized business we recently switched over that had been running a T1 with public addresses on every desktop
Big deal. The only justifiable reason for using NAT is saving money on address space. Treating it as a "security" measure does nothing other than give you a false sense of security. IT types that insist on using non-routable IPs for "security" reasons piss me off, particularly since I usually spend a ridiculous amount of time working around whatever idiotic restrictions they put in place.
confidential filesharing servers (with public IPs) with IRC, RPC, NNTP, and thirty other services running
This public IP hangup is crazy. And if they happen to be running all those services...so? Nothing inherently wrong, as long as they're aware of what they're doing. You can certainly run a secure system with a bunch of servers (though I probably wouldn't...). You might want to chroot a few things, but it's not the end of the world.
and absolutely *zero* firewalling/security/etc.
I'm going to be a bit unfair to you here and not give you the advantage of the doubt. By "zero firewalling/security/etc", what you *really* mean is "zero firewalling", right?
Firewalls are the most oversold, least useful security technique on the market. IT types get off on them because they represent only a single system to poke at, instead of company-wide changes on each client. You can also get a great support contract with your firewall, so you don't have to know the first damn thing about networking, and still have a firewall.
I *hate* firewalls. Stuff is exposed to the Internet for a reason -- because you want to access the damn service. If I want to put up an FTP server, I should be able to put up an ftp server. Nothing -- with the possible exception of transparent proxies -- is more annoying to the end user. Blocking outgoing DNS requests. Blocking outbound email. Blocking incoming ssh. Argh.
You know what happens after you put your stupid firewall up? It gets VPNed by the first user who gets pissed off enough at you, everything gets tunneled through some port you left open, and you have the same degree of security that you did in the *first* place, but have a more complicated, fragile network.
"The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it."
They got replaced with a rackmount Mikrotik router system and were immediately firewalled, RFC 1918 standard private IP network, etc.
So you made it a fricking pain for them to set up services to be accessed from the outside. No kidding, they were pissed off.
Their response? Forget about thank you
Surprise, surprise.
no, they won't buy VPN software - think cheap
Wow. I'd *hate* you if you were running my network. I have an SSH server that I use to grab files from to do occasional work at home. You take away my IP. I get upset, ask why it doesn't work, and you tell me to purchase some VPN software, because you're living high on your pet configuration? You expect users to be happy? Are you mad?
can't run personal websites on desktops
I don't have a problem with this at all. I'm running Apache on my desktop at this very minute. Blocking it would piss me off to no end.
open relaying on their Exchange server was "broken"
I think it's kind of sad that open relaying can't be used any more, and I've certainly been frusterated with mail admins before. I *do* think that no one should ever have a less lenient policy than:
* local IPs get automatic relaying wherever
* anyone that auths themselves via *any* (i.e. don't just support MD5 or something annoying like that) SMTP auth mechanism to be a valid local user gets relaying wherever
* any remote IP can send to any local email addresses. I bitterly hate things like the DUL. I have a mail server on my computer. It's convenient, and I don't have to remember to change my "mail server" in all my mail clients when I move from place to place. The DUL is a ridiculously overagressive anti-spam measure, which basically makes life miserable for anyone who wants to run a simple, convenient mail server like this.
"We don't want to know about those details. We just want it to work the way it did before without spending more money."
And that's your job, pretty much. Make the functionality they need available to them with as little impact on them as possible. yours is a support role -- you should be keeping them purring along, never impacting work efficiency. If you have some brilliant scheme to improve security, fine, but make it convenient for them and make it *not* cut into any functionality that they're wanting to use.
Users will insist on being stupid about IP, security, etc. (I only mention this because it is part of the mindset you need to understand to see where the service provider is going to come from).
Yup. And network admins will insist on caring about their own "pet" security/network models over user convenience. Same thing always happens. If the guy's a Kerb fan, the network's going to be running Kerberos. If the guy is into SSH, telnet's going to be banned and everyone *will* use SSH. If the guy is operating under a "public IPs are bad" mindset, he's going to take away everyone's IPs.
Come on... do you expect these folks to be experts about business policy? We train our guys to provide option A or B - A = installed our way, B = no install, goodbye and good luck. 90% of the customers are never an issue, but the 10% "I design websites, so therefore I'm a networking expert" types micromanage everything and work hard to screw it all up.
Now *this* I like. A lot. I wish everyone had your good attitude here. Nothing pisses one off like a lack of your option B. Some ISPs think they *must* force everyone to undergo the installation procedure. Quite a turnoff.
By loading this software, I ensure that my configuration will probably stay on top of all the nonsense you put in there, and I can actually have a clue what is going on when you manage to screw it up still.
And of course, whatever shitty VB-programmer written crap is getting tossed into their system is probably immature and flaky, and probably has half-assed or *no* diagnostic features. I have a really low opinion of home-brew software from ISPs.
May we never see th
> You mean, like these?
Had heard of a couple of those. Most aren't replacements for BIND though. I counted:
2 Written in JAVA. i.e. toys. Would never survive a real load without excessive hardware. (I.e. big ass Xeons like MCSE's put NT on)
2 Packages still in beta
3 stub DNS proxies intended for home LAN users
And finally two more interesting entries. MyDNS was obviously aimed at large hosting farms with it's DB based backend and MaraDNS was actually kinda interesting. Have to read that site in more detail since it might actually qualify as a general purpose BIND replacement.
> > and we both already know that so don't
> > bother with beating that dead horse.
> Such Style! Such Wit! Such Argument! Such
> Rhetoric! Such Unquestionable Authority!
Hmm. Looks like we do both agree djbdnd is NOT Open Source or Free Software. Obviously this does not bother you, but I will not use closed software when a viable Free equivelent is available. Neither is going to change the mind of the other so why are we beating this dead horse?
> The Open Source community could use a few
> more people like Dan.
Why? Has he EVER released an Open Source or Free Software program? Until he does he is only slightly more useful than Microsoft/SUN/Oracle/J. Random Shareware author. He releases unfree software with licenses that allow free redistribution of unmodified copies. Hell, I could redistribute IE under those terms with only a small amount of hoop jumping. That doesn't make Microsoft a member of the Open Source community.
You djb fanboys are almost as rabid as Amigans. Both of groups need to face reality. The Amiga is DEAD and djbdns will never see widespread use. Both failed in the marketplace due to self inflicted wounds. Nobody questions the technical
quality of djbdns, but that still won't get it shipped in any OS because of the wierd non-free license is was released under.
Democrat delenda est
I use Cogeco cable service in Ontario, Canada and they'll let you go without the software install or anything although they won't guarantee it'll work (standard disclaimer). Rogers, OTOH, also in the area, installs software that uses a modified Internet Explorer for Windows (glad I don't use Windows) which can't have the auto-proxy config removed easily.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Guy comes over, wants to install NIC (but I insisted that I do it myself), and then he turns on the computer waiting for the Plug and Play dialog on Windows. I told him there was no Plug and Play on Windows NT (and if you argue otherwise, yes there /is/, but you've never enabled it and found WHY it isn't enabled by default!). The installer had NO idea about ANYTHING with WinNT.
Needless to say, he left without installing any software (thankfully, since I never installed Internet Explorer on that machine), but he had no idea of the network settings because he assumed DHCP would do all of it (another thing in NT that didn't quite work right in the early days of NT 4.0).
My advice: if you know half your ass about computers, you probably know more about what you're doing than most of the people that install DSL or cable modems for residential consumers. Yes, there ARE smart people out there, but they're usually reserved for the customers that didn't get successful installations the first time around.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
MacTCP supported BOOTP, but not DHCP, you didn't get it until OpenTransport came out. I know it well, we used to support several hundred of them :)
Jason
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
That's what I thought. I was pretty sure OT had it. Thanks for clearing that up.
Hmmmm...Qwest lists a number of DSL "partners" in nt area, and they're all smaller ISPs, often with even higher prices than the bigger guys. Earthlink isn't mentioned. The sad part is that no matter which point of access I choose (non-cable), Qwest will be involved at some point.