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Office Depot: Windows XP Apps Must Be Microsoft-Approved
An anonymous reader writes "According to an article at The Inquirer, by May 30th Office Depot will only be carrying computer products that have been certified by Microsoft and carry the 'Designed for Windows XP' logo. This may be an initial glimpse at how Microsoft could introduce Digital Restrictions Management by ensuring all retail hardware and software products are approved by Redmond."
But, this is simply a marketing decision. Most of the "lesser" applications, the ones without certification, usually aren't hot sellers at the depot.
Did you Vote for Linux?
Microsoft may be a monopoly, but Office Depot is hardly the only place to buy software.
Software will still be available online, and from other vendors. As long as Microsoft doesn't require software makers to register with MS in order to make their products function properly on the OS, it can't be as bad as the article makes it out to be.
Microsoft's attack on 3rd party developers over the years have made it pretty obvious, but I guess some people still haven't got the message: this is an invite-only party.
It seems impossible for MS to require anyone to only stock certain software. If software is selling well and customers are demanding it, no amount of pressure from Microsoft will keep it off the shelves.
They won't be carrying Redhat Linux any more.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
What does this mean for Linux sales? Will they stop selling it at Office Depot?
If they truly enforce this, then MS will lose market share the way Apple did when they stopped being the flexible environment for users. Fortunately for Apple, they have come back around. What OS will take the position? LINUX of course...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
How many people here can say they do their software shopping at Office Depot? Anyone? Bueler?
I'll form my OWN solar system! With blackjack! And hookers!
buying anything at Office Depot. I'll take my business elsewhere.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
Red Hat 9.0 anyone?
OpenOffice anyone?
I think Redmond is playing the card of trying to keep non-MS approved (i.e. open source and other ISV) software off of retail shelves. However, with retail giants like Wal-Mart only concerned with cost and sales, this could prove a losing strategy....especially outside of the U.S.
My two cents.
I detect a small conflict brewing between the last two stories...
Ofice Depot will only sell Designed for Windows XP products, yet the redhat.com page says RedHat Linux 9.0 will be available from.....(you guessed it!) Office Depot!
Well, this IS a turn-up for the books - who thought RH would manage to get a "Designed for Windows XP" certification!
David
Sorry for double post, But i actually read the news thread, and personally I'm not suprised by this. Microsoft is simply out there to eliminate competitors. I guess its too hard to just simply make superior software. Now they have to restrict what their resellers sell
CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!!
I've decided that, in the interest of not becoming completely cynical, I'm just going to pretend Microsoft doesn't exist or went out of business or something. Who's with me? =P
Fight this, don't let this happen. When the time comes to get Palladium enabled motherboards and CPUs, make sure you get the ones where you can disable it and NEVER enable it. If it's not used it'll be abandoned.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I only use Windows when I have to, to be sure, so maybe I'm out of touch. But I sure didn't think the penetration of XP was that large, yet--is Office Depot really ready to sacrfice 75% of their customers?
I guess just because it's ready for XP doesn't mean that it won't work on older versions of winders. On the other hand, I see lots of users of win98 knowing what it feels like to use a Mac and go shopping for software in an office supply store...
Hint--they won't be paying $199 just to shop with you.
--
$tar -xvf
Won't this just increase the rate at which software is pirated? Although the change would be small, any means of restricting the legal purchas of software will lead more people to pirate software. If someone who wanted to buy a legal copy of a piece of software that wasn't "Designed for Windows XP" (whatever that means) and they couldn't find it at Office Depot, they may just say "oh well I tried" and pirate it.
I do all my shopping for computer software at Office Depot! How am I going to get the latest Starworld Monkey Tetris 5.0 if Office Depot don't sell it?
I'm a girl too! See naked chicks in my journal!
This would be a bigger, and possibly more sinister, story if it had been about Best Buy, or Circuit City.
"Designed for Windows 2000; Windows XP can run all Windows 2000 applications"
People still buy software in stores? You don't see many stores that actually carry a large selection of software. A few nitch ones here and there and a few big guys to give those people who resist change some place to shop. No doubt Microsoft will push hard for DRM but I don't think that this is one of them. Sounds like marketting to me.
-Eod
So, any GNU/Linux distro sold by OfficeDepot after the deadline will be Microsoft certified, no?
Sig ?
If you don't like it, don't buy there.
It's also their choice if they decided to only sell stuff that starts with the lettter "A" if they want to.
If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
Here's more from Microsoft. Here are the requirements to be certified.
Well, at least I can still get Deer Hunter at Best Buy
From the article:
"...all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements..."
Which sounds like hardware, but they mention applications in particular. If that's to be believed, they are saying no linux distros, no mac software as well.
Just wait until MS announces you have to give them 10% of all software sold that's Microsoft-Approved....
And joint ownership of code.
All your bases are belonging to gates.
And my opinion is the only one that matters to me.
"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them." -- George H. W. Bush
Do that many people really buy their software from an office supply store?
Let em' do what they want...I know the only software I buy lately is games, and there's not exactly a shortage of places to find those.
Most Microsoft software people use comes pre-installed, anyway, and for the (likely) specialized stuff that doesn't, Office Depot isn't exactly the first place most people think of.
Slightly off-topic but, I'm wondering. How do you _really_ meet this criteria, for your app?
Would they ask to look at your code? :-)
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
Please be aware that Office Depot is immediately requiring all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements
The specific use of the word "connect" smells strongly like the new policy applies only to hardware products, so that customers aren't scared when they bring home their products and get the "unsigned driver" alert. (Under Windows 2000 and Windows XP, installing an unsigned driver produces such an alert. Installing an unsigned user-mode application program does not produce such an alert.)
Will I retire or break 10K?
I don't recall seeing a monitor with the "Designed for Windows logo on it," and the monitor certainly connects to the computer in a similar way that most mice and keyboards do (plug it in and it works with little to no setup)
This has nothing to do with MS's domination-of-the-world (Copyright (c) 1975 Microsoft Corporation), and all to do with something (euphamistically) called Freedom. That's right, Freedom. Office Depot can sell what they want, at least, until they become a nationalized government sponsered vendor. As an aside, how is that different that a website only listing software that is FHS complient, or any other standard (let alone distro's like Debian (who I fully support, btw) who are extremely restrictive on what they package)?
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
Just yesterday there was a news report stating that troops "captured a processing facility that may house chemical weapons" (proved false).
Documents attained by Bush Administration pointed to evidence that Iraq may have conspired with Al Qaeda (proved sketchy)
In other words the limiting of approved software by Office Depot may or may not have to do with anything. Try supplying some facts please.
After all, according to a friend who works at Staples, for every one copy of Office or serious stuff they sell they sell 3 games and about 20 pieces of $10 old shovelware. Assuming the same is true at Office Depot, what are the odds that the shovelware is going to be, or bother to get, certified?
People are not going to start buying $60 games from you just because you stop selling the $10 games, they'll go to someone else selling the $10 crap.
Hmmm . . . to digitally protect what? Unless Microsoft does not allow the install of any P2P program how are they managing any digital rights?
Are you saying that all software must be purchased at a store--one store in this situation???
Sweet crap people. Its called a "Business Alliance" and it happens an aweful lot, and not just in the IT industry.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I don't have an Office Depot near me, so I don't know what they're selling right now. I do know that if you walk into Staples, Circuit City, or Best Buy, they have a TON of crap that "connects" to computers. They will NEVER follow Office Depot's example, they would lose a SHITLOAD of business. Do you really think that they'll pull every keyboard, joystick, printer, stick of RAM, etc that isn't XP certified? What about multimedia speaker systems? Are Alienware cases supposed to get XP certification?
Another good example is Radio Shack. Shit, are they supposed to get every FAN and HEATSINK and power supply Y-cable M$ certified for XP? Right... Office Depot is going to be the loser here. Nobody else is going to go along with this steaming pile of crap.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Some idiots will flame Microsoft, but in the article obviously they don't show any evidence that says Microsoft forced Office Depot to take that decision. Just that some idiots will forget that they don't have such a power to force Office Depot for that.
If others start following suit (read Walmart, Best Buy, etc) then this could be a very big deal indeed. Esp. if these retailers extend this thinking to their online sales. Think of it this way, Microsoft could effectively control the release dates of it's competitors products (or at least retail release dates) by controlling exactly when they are granted "certificiation". They also have the advantage of ALWAYS having at least a bit of a heads up on any products that their competitors are about to release (no springing a new Office suite on'em). Once again, having the OS company also sells apps is just a bad idea. How long before the OS will refuse to run any apps that have not been "blessed" by Redmond themselves?
In most places, you can always go to Staples or OfficeMax. So if you don't like Office Depot's policy, spend your money on office supplies somewhere else!
ok, this is one retailer, one that, quite frankly, not too many people use for their software needs, if this "drm" "secure computing" bullshit continues, which i very very seriously doubt it will, many people will make the switch to mac os, or linux, i know i will if it comes down to it. im already very high on mac osx, hell one of my friends has made the switch and is amazed how everything just "works", amazing isnt it? make a product that works, and people will like it.
I hate sigs.
Note that the initial article came from a British paper, indeed a very good one which I, like many on the left side of the puddle, read regularly. The article refers to Office Depot's UK stores, which have adopted the policy. It also suggests that US stores haven't yet done so, though they might at some point in the future.
I don't know how autonomous the different Office Depot divisions are, but many companies give a lot of autonomy to national divisions.
I sit two doors away from a Staples so I don't really go into an Office Depot much anyway....
I'll buy some paper, school supplies, emergency ink cartridge... from HomeDepot -- but never software from there. Not that I don't like them, but I just tend to shop on-line for software. So they appear to be minimizing their risk (maybe), and if it doesn't work, and enough people complaing that they can't find package "X", the next memo could change that philosophy. If HomeDepot doesn't have what I need, there several other similar stores in the same shopping center.
"This may be an initial glimpse at how Microsoft could introduce Digital Restrictions Management by ensuring all retail hardware and software products are approved by Redmond."
It could also be an initial glimpse at how I could suddenly switch to linux, if windows gets too restrictive..
Have you sent "installed linux today" -email to microsoft yet?
love slashdot. populate it. use it. abuse it. hate it. kill it. miss it. stop following links, they only kill servers.
Where do I get a copy of Red Hat 8.1 that is Windows certified?
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Formula for Instant Successes as a Windows developer. ...Profit.
1. Build a product that pisses Microsoft off.
2. Begin to sell that product at Office Depot.
3. Allow Microsoft to have your product removed from Office Depot's shelves.
4. Hold Microsoft and Office Depot accountable for your loses, sue them for millions of dollars.
5.
who thought RH would manage to get a "Designed for Windows XP" certification!
Perhaps Red Hat Linux 9 includes a port of User Mode Linux designed to run on top of Win32, with DirectXFree86, or something.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I wonder if Redhat and Mandrake will be able to get the logo in time...
Does that mean that I'll never be able to buy a Mac there since none of those were designed to be compatible? What about Linux? Will the price of CAT-5 cables go up as they need to be stamped with "Designed for Windows XP"? What about Full Tilt Pinball which was designed for Windows NT?
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
Say I was a serious software developer. I would at least visit the following web site..
..and eventually I would reach the part about VeriSign, which is when I see that this is gonna cost me money, money, money.
http://www.microsoft.com/winlogo/
http://www.verisign.com/products/winlogo/
Of course, this is aimed at commercial software developers..
But who really cares, and I mean REALLY cares about whether software is signed or not, seeing it from a practical point of view?
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
If this is for hardware it actually makes a lot of sense. Bad hardware drivers can create all kinds of problems and the Microsoft driver signing program appears to include a number of test to check for common problems drivers can cause (I think it tests the drivers with a range of possible inputs to check it copes correctly with them all). When I install some drivers and I see the unsigned driver warning that is often the first sign of trouble.
Well, I peruse my Sunday ads every week, looking for bargains on things I can use....I've gotten some good stuff at Office Depot, mostly hardware or CDR's there...I go where the best deal is...I've already gone to their site and emailed a letter expressing my concern about this policy. Are you going to wait till your 'favorite' store does the same thing?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Maybe, but in all honesty this is somewhat of a GOOD thing for XP users... From the article:
"Only products that conform to Microsoft's Designed for Windows XP rules and carry its logo will be sold in Office Depot" (SINCE) "Many (products), indeed, when they're installed, carry notices to ignore the "driver is not signed" messages that come up when people use Windows XP."
This is a good thing because now it will force the manufacturers of various hardware to write drivers that will actualy work on XP - there is a lot of hardware (ie: Printers and Scanners) out right now that unless they are "new" will sometimes only have half of there features working under XP. For example my friend bought an HP Printer/Scanner/Fax - under 98 it works fine BUT when you install it under XP the fax won't work - its an issue with the driver software and they are working on a fix for it still....If my friend had gone to Office Depot and bought a printer/scanner/fax machine he would't of had this problem...
Ave Molech Setting
And the problem with this is... what exactly? I don't see hordes of Microsoft users crying over Linux Central not selling software specifically geared for the Windows family of operating systems. I don't see why people should cry over Office Depot only selling hardware and software certified by Microsoft. It's a business decision, pure and simple. If it saves Office Depot money and/or makes for smoother customer service, so much the better. If you don't like it, shop somewhere else. It's called choice, it's what capitalism is all about.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
This may be an initial glimpse at how Microsoft could introduce Digital Restrictions Management by ensuring all retail hardware and software products are approved by Redmond.
This is just silly and paranoid. The whole "Designed for Windows XX" logo thing has been pretty much a non-issue for consumers since Windows 95. At this point, it's pretty much another bullet point on the features list. As the article and others here point out, this is an Office Depot decision, part of their "fanatical customer service". There may have been some armtwisting from Microsoft behind the scenes, but Microsoft do love that logo program. So unless DRM is a requirement for the XP logo, this entire statement is unwarranted.
As for the idea that this means the end of all Mac and Linux software at Office Depot, I think we can take the quoted letter as meaning "All Windows software must be certified, all hardware must be certified". If the exact words are ambiguous, well, how many pronouncements from management have you seen that weren't poorly thought out and ambiguous?
What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?
Wouldnt this be a funny way to slap MS in the face ?
Write a shiny wrapper whose sole purpose in life is to "extract" a linux distro ISO from a "database" and write such distro to a CD, then reboot the computer, forcing a linux install if you're configured to boot off cd.
Make sure your wrapper is working according to the WHQL "standard" and BOOM! Instant Microsoft Certified Linux distro. How's that for market penetration ?
I should get a patent on this. And on breathing...
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
From the memo quoted in the article:
"Please be aware that Office Depot is immediately requiring all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements to be considered for retail distribution through our stores."
This is more than a little nuts...why in the world should a mouse, or a printer, or a scanner, or an ethernet cable be "Designed for Windows XP"? And does this mean that my Powerbook isn't a notebook computer, or that they won't sell Mac hard and software since it isn't "Designed for Windows XP"? It *is* a little creepy...
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
Remember the EULA on windows from two years back? It said "This product cannot be used in life-critical applications, because it contains Java from Sun Microsystems." Don't underestimate the damage a sinister sounding warning message can cause.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
One OS to rule them all,
One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.
And thus began an age of darkness.
Linus, it is now your quest to take the OS and cast it back to the fires of Redmond.
Do they think they can get away with that. Keeping hardware manafacturers off shelves just becuase it's not certified by MS?
This is bad for the linux and MAC communities as well since what happens when products that work and are advertised for our OS's are removed from the shelves becuase they're not MS compatible.
This will also definately hurt small manafactures who now have to find new sources to display their wares. I think this goes way too far! It's a software dictatorship. We need to hit them with some Shock and Awe or just a good old kick in the arse!
I think it's time to get the states back on MS for this strongarm tactic they're trying to pull. What next gamestop only sells MS games for the PC and Xbox?
This isn't just about software. It is about hardware also. If enough large chains will not sell hardware unless it is Microsoft XP certified then Microsoft gets to dictate what that hardware does and does not support if the manufacturer doesn't want to go out of business. Among other wonderful things this could mean Palladium compatiblity in all/most hardware even if the customer is not using XP or any Microsoft cruft. It is a possible way that "the market" will force DRM and other not so nice things on all of us.
This deserves to be paid attention to.
Microsoft can cram it with walnuts.
Perhaps it might, particularly if the trend moves to other retailers. Office Depot isn't the first place I think of to get software, but apparently some people do buy there, and as a low profile seller they might have been a good place to start this practice, then when it shows up at the major retailers it can be dismissed as "nothing new".
But in asking if it will not just increase piracy, you should also ask who is behind this, who would be hurt by piracy and who would indirectly benefit. While OfficeMax didn't outright say so, I would bet that there was pressure from Microsoft to put this policy in place. So what software might this cause an increase in piracy of? Software not officially blessed and approved by Microsoft. Might this not be a small side benefit that Microsoft actually would welcome, putting another nail in the coffin in the little guy that will not play by Bill's rules? Clearly all Microsoft products will have the logos (even if, as is many times the case, they don't meet the same standards that independent developers are required to have to get that logo!) so this will not increase their piracy, only that of the competition.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
see subject
Seriously, some of the medium size companies don't bother with the logo. Intuit comes to mind.
Visit http://www.microsoft.com/windows/catalog to look up your favorite product.
To paraphrase the great Barry Corbin as Gen. Jack Beringer "Mr. Gates, after very careful consideration, sir, We've come to the conclusion that your new digital restrictions management sucks."
This has been going on isnce the pre win 3.1 days
Windows crashing with a mysterious error message when run under Dr. Dos instead of MS DOC. MS eventually lost the lawsuit in that one. Turned out they had designed Windows to detect the DOS vendor and crash if a non MS Dos was found.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Office Depot/OfficeMax/Staples are the *last* place I'd ever buy software.
well, one exception: Staples has no concept of "release date" so some of us folks got Mac OS X 10.0 a few days before the actual street date. That was cool.
Otherwise, I go there for normal office supplies and I go to Fry's (or amazon.com) for software.
I'm actually posting this message from a Computer located inside of an Office Depot location. I have been working at the depot for 4 years now, and I personally consider this to be a good thing, although I do have some reservations.
Consider the current retail culture in this world, sales are down, margins are slim and overall, profits are down. Office Depot is in a position where something has to be done to distinguish themselves from our competitors. Staples, Office Max and Grand & Toy (in canada) as well as whatever other retailers in the states are out there, make for a very competitive selling atmosphere, and with margins being as slim as they are, you cannot compete on price, what you have left is customer service, selection, and reliability. Most of the items that are going to be affected by this are the cheap little invoicing programs that no one buys anyway, that all get returned to the vendor after a year of not being on the shelf. Also consider that your typical customer at the depot, is not as computer savvy as you, or I am. Our typical customer is the home user, who is upgrading their early pentium box, and places constant phone calls to the store, whenever "This Driver is not digitally signed" comes up, or even today, the lady that called to ask how to find the CD Key for her Black ICE Defender. These are the type of people who NEED everything to work as smoothly out of the box as possible, with few or no questions.
Just because all of the itmes that we will now carry must be supported my XP, does not mean that those items will not work in alternate OS's...it just means that if an item is not 100% XP compliant, we won't carry it. If anything, this is just going to be an incentive for companies like HP, Canon, Lexmark, Epson etc to get off of their asses and fix all of the broken drivers that we see daily.
Disclaimer. I'm personally an avid OSS user, including Debian and FreeBSD. My home network has been windows free for 3 years now, and I could not be happier. However, I realize that 99% of the people that I see on a daily basis at my store, are using XP, or are upgrading to XP in the near future. From the standpoint of my employer, this makes sense, and I agree with them.
Damn Straight!
i m sure OD is not doing this as s a generosity for MS. it must be getting extra discount or something for doing this. if that is the case, could it be legal? can coca-cola decide, which potato chips Safeway can sell in order to get price break on coke? OD doesn't do customer support for any of the apps they sell, so why they bother if the app is certified or not? it seems that if MS can get few large retailers to follow this strategy, then commercial windows developers won't have choice but to get their apps certified. in this case, MS could create a license for certification which is harmful to their competitors. Oh well, it seems OD has two choices: either sell MS products at competitive rate or sell third party apps from MS competitors who don't want their apps certified by MS. they chose the 1st.
What about Mac Hardware.. Like umm.. a usb mouse. Ya, that works on a mac.. then you just slap 'also works on pc's' in on the otherside of the box and let them come after you. So how long till the manufactures figure out its easier to put a half ass mac driver on their website.. and call it a mac product and keep shipping the same box? A bigger problem is that I belive the parent of Office Depot owns other retail chains.. will they be forced to change as well?
Mod me down for saying this (on a side note : I think its lame to say "mod me down" : but if I don't say it, people will think I'm trolling. By putting that tag on my message I'm admitting the message is inflammatory)
Anyway, there are some notable advantages to a system like Palladium. Theoretically, it could enable certain types of applications that aren't possible today which involve trusting the client. Yes, I'm aware that even if the hardware is integrated into the processor someone could still steal the private keys the system depends on, and create an emulated version, cracking the system wide open. I'm also pretty confident the initial versions will have some subtle but still gaping hole, allowing them to be cracked with ease.
However, in theory if it all works right (and from a theoretical standpoint it IS possible to make it work right and be unbreakable) applications running under its protection would have their memory space protected against intrusion.
There is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING planned that would stop you from writing your own applications that hide under this umbrella (but an integral part will be the system kernel, so microsoft OS only), and I'm sure microsoft will encourage you to do so. There is nothing that will stop you from running untrusted code : it just won't have access to resources belonging to trusted applications (unless you've hacked it of course)
Palladium won't prevent you from installing a different OS on the system, you just won't be able to run trusted apps in that OS (technically its possible to give these same features with open source. The actual keys would have to be hidden, controlled by someone, but everything else could be viewed and contributed to) . Yes in theory SOME types of remote hacking exploits could be stopped. Network applications would now only process messages that are signed by code that your palladium chip certifies as meeting certain criteria. This could make it possible for a microsoft server app to only even look at messages sent by a microsoft client app, preventing many hacks.
This means the application could have secret information in it that needs to be hidden from the end user. For instance, the application could be a movie player that decrypts a spiffy new high definition format which is capable of encoding 1080p digital movie quality video, copied byte for byte straight from the version used in theaters. It could be an online gaming client that to run efficiently must have certain information protected from access and tampering(coordinates of other players, your crosshair location, the current state of the world physics system, objects occluded from view, and many many more). The current generation of MMORPGs have very limited interactivity (cannot aim, shitty AI, no physics, no elements that require player twitch skill) because the client cannot be trusted with anything (and even then it has to have SOME information that could be useful to a hacker) nor control anything interesting.
And yes, it could be a document viewer that reads encrypted documents. The document files themselves might contain more information than the author wants revealed, so the viewer would obey certain rules about when the file can be accessed, and what machine. Currently this is impossible to create because someone could steal the decryption key the viewer uses right out of memory, or edit its code such that it no longer obeys restrictive tags in the file.
None of this would stop you from using untrusted players to view your current data files, and nothing would force you to convert. Unfortunatly, since the keys to the kingdom will be controlled by microsoft bad things could come from this. They could charge monopoly prices, use it to squeeze out their competitors, and do many more things. However, I believe that this has the potential to be a killer app. If you don't want microsoft to rule the software world even more than it already does, perhaps the open source community should look to creating their own, equivalent, alternative.
Microsoft ensuring others can't sell their stuff by leveraging the OS monopoly is nothing new.
DRM is just the next logical step. And you can bet DRM will support MRM.
From the article: "Please be aware that Office Depot is immediately requiring all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements to be considered for retail distribution through our stores" - note the italics are mine. We are not talking about software but hardware that must be XP certified. So don't worry about that game, worry about that Video card or printer etc!!!!
From the article: In October 2001, Microsoft released Windows XP, which has become the fastest growing operating system in history. Is that really true? I heard the adoption of WinXP was slower than expected and slowing still. (...or does that statement have to do with the consumer and business sides now being combined? If so, it still seems shifty...)
Really, write a clear and concise reason why you don't like there decision.
You could be surprised at how seriously corporation take these letters. Hell, I got Saturn* to drop the price of a car when a I wrote them a letter at how angry I was at the way a sales rep. treated me.
*Saturn is a car company that has a non-negotiable car price.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
A "Not designed for Windows XP" logo?
Oddly enough, it was a retail store that got me involved in linux. My windows install had become rotten, and being a shitty OEM one, didn't come with reinstall discs.
So, I was faced with a choice. Pay more then a hundred dollars for Windows, or pick up this 'Red Hat' thing. After all, it looked good enough on the box, and it was only thirty bucks. Sounded like a good deal to me, so I brought it home and installed it.
Got a user prompt. Had no idea what to do. Tried to send it back. No luck. 'no returns on open software' So I had to spend time getting it to work. (and by work, I meant a GUI).
Finally, it worked. Been using it ever since, of course, now I dualboot for one game. And I run on a liscence that was given to me: win2kPro
01101001 01100001 01101101 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 01100001 01110111 01111001 01100101 01110010
Most small businesses do their shopping at Office Depot or a comparable office store. The "who the hell cares, no one buys computer related items anywhere but Fry's/newegg/CompUSA/random local specialty shop anyway" posts are naive and uninformed. A lot of non-technical people buy their equipment at office stores, not least because many of them have corporate accounts there. The implication here, while not stated explicitly, is that there will be no non-windows software at all. Back in 99/00 I convinced several clients to put linux on their servers largely on the basis of it being sold at Office Depot. This is an important marketing presence for linux. Not critical, but important.
Moreover, having a fairly major outlet only carry XP certified hardware will possibly encourage manufacturers to cut back on support for non-XP operating systems across their product lines. This will not only affect Mac/BSD/Linux users, but users of Windows 2000, NT, 98, and ME (yes, both of them).
this is getting old and so are you
blog
I just bought a notebook, and although I searched I was not able to buy one with the features I wanted in the price range without paying the extra Microsoft XP tax. Don't tell me it's a free market when a company found guilty of these monopolistic practices in federal court can continue to do business as usual.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
after reading most of the replies it seems that their primary focus is on OD or on single deal. true, OD is not a big player in software business and a single deal like this won't hurt anyone. but think this way: today OD, tomorrow, other retailers. most businesses buy their stuff from this retailers only, so most software vendors will have to start getting their apps MS certified.
You mean people have to buy software? Silly me, I thought you could get all the good stuff for free!
ok, this is one retailer, one that, quite frankly, not too many people use for their software needs
Always the best way to test out a new idea; a small segment of the market where it won't raise too many eyebrows. (See the introduction of DRM by record labels into CD's that savvy consumers would never buy, as a testing ground) That being said, as it's been pointed out in other comments, this was a decision by Office Depot. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't a decision encouraged by MS. I wouldn't put it past them at all to recommend the idea to other, more significant vendors.
if this "drm" "secure computing" bullshit continues, which i very very seriously doubt it will, many people will make the switch to mac os, or linux
Yes, let's put our faith in the wisdom of the consumers to think about the implications of the technology they probably won't even realize is being introduced. Because, after all, we all know how well consumers see through clever ad campaigns and shiny boxes.
Yep, we're safe. Enough of the Windows userbase will switch OS's when DRM becomes common that it won't be a problem. Everything will be just fine.
On second thought.. Consumers are hapless sheep. Let's NOT trust their intelligence, and instead be proactive about combating a danger (DRM) that 99% of the market won't see coming, and won't understand when it gets here.
Per Microsoft:
http://www.microsoft.com/winlogo/default.mspx
Well, one can always go across the street (in most cases) and go to office max, where the prices & selection is typically better. Maybe office depot is just doing this, because they need to clear shelf space for more overpriced products that one can get anywhere else for less.
Office Depot - just another prostitute sucking on the Microsoft tit - not very impressive behavior for a business.
If Walmart and MS seriously butt heads I'ld expect Walmart to win. If for no other reason that it can threaten to put a complete Linux PC on its shelves for less than the cost of Windows XP.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
I would think this would not include Linux software. It sounds like MS/Office Depot are doing this for Windows ONLY HW/SW. Maybe you should read and understand the article before rushing to post your I hate MS at all costs rhetoric! Do you think Red Hat would have to pass logo testing? COMPREHENSION, learn how.
Two, if you can't get your stuff on the shelves without MS certifying your drivers, and MS is a bit...slow about certifying devices with vendor-supplied Linux drivers.... Guess how many companies will look at the 98% of the peripheral/card market that is Windows and the 2% that is not, and decide they don't need to distribute their own Linux drivers, after all? We'd be back to 1995 for Linux drivers, rolling our own from reverse engineering.
Three, to really implement DRM for video and audio, you need to build it into the video and audio cards, and MS is still pushing their own DRM standards. If they can turn XP certification into a club to beat the card-builders over the head with, how long before you can't buy a SoundBlaster that isn't hard-wired for MicroSoft DRM?
Maybe that's all so much conspiracy-spinning, but the implications and conclusions look pretty obvious to me.
--Dave
Email Office Depot. I'm sure 250,000 Slashdot readers can't all be wrong.
John the Kiwi
Well, Apple software will only run on Apple approved hardware which is only sold by Apple authorized dealers. This contributes to how Apple can claim 'Everything Just Works' (TM). We don't hear the uproar about that. P.S. - I own an iBook and while everything does not "just works" it generally works better than a PC laptop (my previous one is a Sony VAIO SR subnote). And please intepret 'only' in the first sentence loosely, I am sure someone will find one or two exception out there but the above statement is generally true.
Please be aware that Office Depot is immediately requiring all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements to be considered for retail distribution through our stores. This change is being implemented due to our on-going pursuite to enhance and simplify our fanatical customer service environment at Office Depot. Products must be certified as Designed for Windows XP by May 30, 2003.
Please note that this policy refers to HARDWARE, not software. Thus, serial modems, mice, keyboards, surge supressors, cables, etc. could all fall under this category.
Does anybody seriously expect anybody to go through the motions of getting its serial cables "certified" by The Beast? Surge supressors? USB cables? All these things plug into PCs and notebooks, right?
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
This means that all of their existing products that do not meet the XP logo requirements will be found at a discount in the clearance bins....
to Microsoft Office Depot.
communityrelations@officedepot.com
I sent the following email.
I read that you are.. I quote the title of the article. "Microsoft logo scheme means Office Depot won't sell non-compliant XP products". It is thoroughly clear to me that many of Microsoft's actions arn't in the best interest of it's customers. (or non-customers) A move like this on the part of your company appears to me that you are willing to support these actions. If this course of action is followed by your company, I will no longer be a customer of Office Depot.
The article in question is the following.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8472
Thank You,
They won't be selling crap like "Deer Hunter" and "101 Windows Games"
Boo-hoo
How often do these stores update their mirrors?
Are there corkboards and sticky notes so you can post bugs?
Do the developers hang out in back, or do they work from home?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
If it says "Works with XP", they can say "you have broken your XP, otherwise it would work with it" and then also know that it really should work with XP (and does).
This has nothing to do with DRM or anything like this, this is simply a way to improve profits (and a dang good one). Problems costs money after all.
I am sure that if it was a "works with Red Hat" it would be taken as good...
- isn't Microsoft certified,
- requires little support, and/or encourages customers to go shopping at Office Depot's competitors for their consumer grade apps and hardware.
Note to self... I was getting ready to dump what little Office Depot stock I was holding anyway -- might as well do it now....Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
From the Office Depot memo: "As you know, applications and devices that meet or exceed Microsoft's technical requirements..." Everyone knows how hard it is.
Bah their loss, Microsoft has pissed off enough people to not buy from them already. They still think they can run the entire show but the consumers are beginning to know better and not put up with the same old bull that has been plaging us for decades.
Here's a summary of the logo requirements, from Microsoft's Logo site:
List of Windows Fundamentals Requirements
1.1 Perform primary functionality and maintain stability
1.2 Any kernel-mode drivers that the application installs must pass verification testing on Windows XP
1.3 Any device or filter drivers included with the application must pass Windows HCT testing
1.4 Perform Windows version checking correctly
1.5 Support Fast User Switching and Remote Desktop
1.6 Support new visual styles
1.7 Support switching between tasks
Installation Requirements List
2.1 Do not attempt to replace files that are protected by Windows File Protection
2.2 Migrate from earlier versions of Windows
2.3 Do not overwrite non-proprietary files with older versions
2.4 Do not require a reboot inappropriately
2.5 Install to Program Files by default
2.6 Install any shared files that are not side-by-side to the correct locations
2.7 Support Add or Remove Programs properly
2.8 Support "All Users" installs
2.9 Support Autorun for CDs and DVDs
Data and Settings Requirements List
3.1 Default to the correct location for storing user-created data
3.2 Classify and store application data correctly
3.3 Deal gracefully with access-denied scenarios
3.4 Support running as a Limited User
This may be an initial glimpse at how Microsoft could introduce Digital Restrictions Management by ensuring all retail hardware and software products are approved by Redmond.
Logo requirements exist to ensure a quality user experience. NOT to force DRM onto the world through Office Depot. This is biased speculation on the part of the submitter, and timothy, objective as always, posted it on the front page.
At the moment, I use a Linux/Windows dual-boot machine. I use my Linux installation for 75% of my work, and I use the Windows installation for gaming and other such activities. The dual boot works well for now, but with Microsoft constantly restricting and spying on more and more things, I forsee that there's going to come a day when Windows will be too Big-Brotherish to even run part of the time. Which will be fine with me, as long as I can get the occasional games I like to play to work on my Linux system. hehe.. worst comes to worst I could always pay Transgaming their monthly subscription and use pre-configured wine games =)
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
None of them say `Designed for Windows XP' or have been `certified by Microsoft.'
Does this mean that Office Depot won't sell them anymore?
How about things like power cards, printer cables, printer cartridges. Floppies?
How about that little mirror that you stick to your monitor that lets you see people who come up behind you? Or that little `brush' thing for cleaning your monitor? How about a mouse pad?
Sounds stupid to me.
I don't want to buy a CD burner that says it works on XP when it won't without having to jump through tons of hoops.
I'm having a problem with an MP3 Player at the moment that has a USB interface. If I move this USB interface to any other USB port other than the one I installed the MP3 Drivers on, the MP3 Player won't work. It's clearly a software issue and this product isn't cleared as 'official' XP hardware.
The Manufacturer's suggestion on how to resolve this issue is not 'wait for the next version of the drivers' but install the drivers on each individual USB port. I've got 7 ports and I'll be damned if I'm going to install the drivers 7 times.
Dolemite
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Judging by the text of the memo from Office Depot suppliers, I am thinking that companies like Palm may be hurt the worst. In the memo it says:
Please be aware that Office Depot is immediately requiring all products that connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer must pass these Designed for Windows XP logo requirements to be considered for retail distribution through our stores.
Well, Palm and most other PDA's do connect to the PC. I wonder if this is also Microsoft's way of cutting in at Palm?
--Jon
...that it is just hardware that must conform to Windows Logo tests (I guess the old WHQL testing stuff). It talks about products that "connect to a Personal Computer and Notebook Computer" to be certified. So is this for software, or just hardware that currently comes sketchy drivers? It could still be a leverage against hardware vendors that ship Linux drivers, but we'll have to wait and see.
Vote for global prefs bug
OH NO!!!!
Get it while you can. I doubt the following will pass the certification!
NOT designed for Windows XPI was not able to buy one with the features I wanted in the price range without paying the extra Microsoft XP tax
... but it ain't gonna happen. Suck it up. You can't always get what you want.
And I want a Humvee for $300
If this is true, I will never buy anything from them again.
Off to send a short email to them saying that, politely.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Logo requirements exist to ensure a quality user experience."
That explains why Windows packagings themselve do not have the logo.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
[Insert predictable comment about fascist MS / Big Companies without actually bothering to read the damn article here]
if this means that every product comes with decent MSI installer databases, then I for one applaud this decision. Its a great technology, and should be encouraged...
"A SCHEME BEING IMPLEMENTED by Office Depot - almost certainly at Microsoft's behest"
"Almost certainly" means that they're not sure. The article really pushes my anger buttons and I don't like it. Before the INQUIRERER pushes my rage button I would like to be sure that they know what it is that they are talking about so that I don't go off and make an ass out of my self.
This may be a dark plot by Microsoft, it wouldn't be the first time but it also could be a decision made completely by Office Depot. Please don't push my buttons if you're not sure.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
1. Build free software
2. Give it away
3. Profit!(?)
There isn't another company out there that treats their deveolpers (even 3rd party ones) better. Laugh all you want as Monkeyboy Ballmer chants, "developers, developers, developers, developers!" but you have to be a pretty blind (and uninformed) zealot to claim they don't treat their developers well.
;-)
The Linux community (RTFM!) and Apple (you'll get the OS when the end user does!) could learn a lot from MS here. You can too, apparently.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I buy most hardware low-cost at computer fairs, as I'm sure most people here do. There will always be shops and places that sell non-crippled hardware, same as there are shops that sell non-chart music. Hardware which isn't somehow crippled isn't illegal, and I doubt it would ever become law (except maybe in the States, with their current administration of clowns).
This is purely a business decision of Office Depot. I imagine that they sell a lot of hardware and software to newbies (as I cannot imagine anyone with a brain buying from them!). They probably get a lot of stuff returned because "it wouldn't work."
By selling only certified stuff Office Depot can shift the blame to the customer. "Heck, it's Microsoft certified, if it didn't work it's not the manufacturer's fault and it can't be our fault, so it must be your fault."
Be on the look-out for a change in Office Depot's return policy to reflect this blame. Like a 15% restocking fee on all returns.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
i type m for mozilla (in Unix)
when I'm in plan9 I right click any text that looks like a url, select plumb and get's freebsd to open it in a new tab in mozilla on my second monitor
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Office Depo can't say I ever bought any software from them anyway. Too bad it's not more chains stores also.... More for me to avoid.
Can't say I know of most businesses running XP so this will be a good thing. Lots of stores will get stuck to microsofts fly paper cause there so stupid...
Rule #
1/Know thy customer
First rule of business
2/ Don't piss customers off.
Profit !
Going broke? Read rule number 1........
This is hallarious if Office not to swift does it. After all they DO NOT EVEN RUN XP
D'oH!
Let's encourage hardware manufactures to open source their drivers. If Microsoft can do it - so can we. It is US who are buying the hardware afterall. I'm personally boycotting any hardware with a 'designed for XP' logo, I can do that because most of it will be garbage anyway.
"They came first for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. And then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up." - Martin Niemöller
Okay, so that's a bit extreme in context, but still...
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
What happens if a program that's "approved" by them suddenly is the victim of an attack, backdoor, or other security issue? Can some blame then be put on MS for having stamped the big OK on the product?
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Reading the memo, figuring out whether the policy change is for hardware or software is somewhat unclear.
Like many other people, I have had to move up to Win/XP and I have found a lot of my hardware/software no longer works, causing me to have to buy replacement products that are "designed for Win/XP". I'm sure for a retailer, this is a major headache as inventory comes back and customers gripe over having to buy replacements.
The question I have to ask is, why is Office Depot sending the memo out to a whole bunch of suppliers when they should only be sending out one? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to send a memo to Microsoft saying that they have found that their new operating system has caused a lot of distress for their customers and rather than requiring their customers and other vendors conform to Win/XP could Microsoft please fix the problems with the operating system so that legacy products will work? In the meantime, Office Depot will cancel all pending orders of Windows/XP until the bugs in it are fixed.
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
I've worked at Office Depot for about the last year and a half, in the Technology department. We sell a little of everything, including games and other software, and it is mostly (95%) oriented towards Windows. The only real Linux software that we carry in-store is RHx, and I'm quite sure we will continue to carry it. And for the mac stuff, well, as said previously, we only carry TurboTax and Quicken, and again, that will probably stay.
What this policy is affecting most is going to be the bargain software as well as the cheapo hardware. From the perspective I see from working there, it is most definately a wise move, since most of the time when a piece of software or hardware does not carry the logo, it is much more difficult to install/use, and is prone to return (Example: Lexmark... who here HASN'T had problems installing their shitty inkjets?). It is unreal how many people buy something, can't get it to work without tweaking something that they dont know how to change, and take it back, even if there is a big "DO NOT RETURN TO STORE" sticker on it. Most of these products get return to "DND", which is either returned to the vendor for repair or destroyed; but either way it costs the store money. I think the biggest company this will hurt is Lexmark, unless they can get their certification soon. The bargain software, in my opinion, is good riddance.
I hate sigs...
I used to work at Office Depot. They used to sell more junk bargain bin software than actual useful software. No one ever bought software from us. This looks like a pathetic attempt to "improve" upon their stock of software, while weeding out the crap.
This is not necessarily detrimental to non-Microsoft operating systems. The policy says that the hardware on OD's shelves must carry the sticker that says it's compatible with Windows XP. It doesn't say that the hardware must carry only that sticker.
... it passes the test for stocking at Office Depot.
If you manufacture a Nifty New USB Gizmo, and it carries stickers from (for example) Microsoft, Apple, and RedHat
Now, I still think this is a poorly thought-out policy, as it excludes some very good hardware that doesn't happen to carry Bill's official blessing. But it's not the lockout some of you are making it out to be.
And in the end, it'll only hurt them. As someone else mentioned, if the increasing numbers of Apple and Linux customers are buying their gear somewhere else, it's Office Depot that's losing sales.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
only on slashdot can you get the validity of the title of a story debunked by it's own content. amazingly, in the first paragraph too, without any real relevance whatsoever to the actual "story". The moderators must be feeling the pressure ... or something.
In the tradition of campers who keep asking, "Is BSD dying?", I have to ask: is the commercial software business dying? I realize that this decision on Office Depot's part to become Microsoft's bitch affects hardware as well, but it seems to me that the real pinch of this move is going to come most significantly to the software business. If MS can make this arrangement stick, it will hit the commercial software houses the hardest. After all, why would the Beast "certify" anything for Windows XP if it is in a category that they would like to dominate? I have in mind the things that Intuit, Symantec, and other vendors who sell popular desktop programs and have a significant market share. If they don't dance to MS' tune, then they might get locked out of the retail channel. Then again, that would be grounds for another lawsuit, which, by the time the court rules against MS, said companies could be out of business. Not that it would be any great loss in some cases...
Always look on the briight side of life! (whistle, whistle)
Except that's not what's going on here AND YOU D*MN WELL KNOW IT.
The version of your comment that actually reflects the reality of the situation is:
And I want something other than a Lada at any price.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Their business is not in software
Everyone is going on about how Office depot only will carry certified XP products and not other OS apps. Maybe they mean the only Windows apps they carry will be XP approved. Thus leaving the door open for Mac and Linux.
Thats my take anyways.
I'm wondering if this affects hardware as well as software. Not that I ever buy anything at Office Depot (since they don't exist in this neck of the woods, so all mmy office needs except hardware/software are purchased at Staples), but it begs to question.
My ATI 8500DV has never had any drivers that are WindowsXP certified. Does this mean Office Depot will not carry that piece of hardware, or carry it without any drivers (since it can use the crappy standard SVGA drivers)? Same goes with one of my NICs, and my extra HD controller card drivers...
Makes you wonder....
It's better to burn out than to fade away
Hopefully good software made by independant companies or people won't be blocked. I'd choose mIRC over that IRC client MS made a while back (you know the one with the avatars). What about programs that college students write for their projects? Do they need some sort of certification? I think this whole deal will kill off rival companies and just furthers that monopoly image.
.smell my feet.
A positive way to spin it (or, "How I learned to stop worrying and Love Free Software:")
One way to look at this as it further reduces the "gene pool" for Windows software, limits innovative products, and makes it more boring. People forced to live with the same boring-assed apps that stay strictly within the narrow limits of what works in Windows will eventually pine for the richness of what used to be in the Shareware community, and only find it in Open source. That's why I switched.
It's hard to argue that argue that businesses won't like boring, stable software. But *people* like rich, exciting, and new, which by definition requires a little lovin'. The latter is the market-driver.
List of Windows Fundamentals Requirements
1.1 Perform primary functionality and maintain stability
That should disqualify just about every piece of software running on Windows, and right on the first requirement too.
Anything that can pressure software vendors to make their packages logo compliant (meaning, well behaved and following rules like don't scribble to HKLM, don't expect to write to the program dir, system dir, etc) is a damn good thing.
As each day passes, there is yet one more reason to quit using the crap that M$ disses out. With the rules so skewed towards M$'s benefit, who can make any money in the Windows environment other than M$? How many good applications are going to have to follow M$ rules or die? Instead of dying, how about porting to Linux? When there are only 5 M$ XP approved apps and 200 Linux apps on the shelf, what do you think people are going to do? Do you think that they may eventually remove the WinCrap from their machines and move Linux?
Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
Quit playing Monopoly with Bill.
Linux - of the people, by the people, and for the people.
This is how ms will restrict linux, and a method that anyone unfamiliar with dealing with retail outlets will have no knowledge or ability to stop.
It's called a "slotting fee". Except, in reverse.
What's a slotting fee?
A slotting fee is the fee that supermarket chains charge to manufacturers for shelf space in their stores. The supermarkets started this, and perfected it, but it extends to all retails outlets.
Want to sell your product? It costs $1,000 per foot per shelf per store. In cash. Up front. No guarantees. Not selling? You are kicked out the next week. That's how it goes on at most supermarkets, and that's how it would go on at most electronics outlets as well.
The slotting fee is in addition to the marketing money, flyer money, sale money, advertising money that the manufacturers offer, or the chains demand.
How does ms keep out linux? Very simple. ms already pays a hefty sum to retailers for advertising in the flyers, for sales, and for shelf/floor space. All they have to do is mention that it would be unfortunate if they started to see Lindows on the floor or shelves after they provided so much money for promoting their own brand. After all, we (ms) are in a lawsuit with them, there is no reason to promote them, is there? How much are they paying you? Really? And how much are we paying you? When my boss finds out you are stocking Lindows, he's not going to be too happy. He was just going over sales figures for the area. Your chain's figures are unchanged from last quarter, yet Will's chain is up 5% from last quarter, and up 10% from the same quarter last year. So is Frank's chain. So are all the other chains we've reviewed so far. This is really worrisome. Our division's been cut back next quarter on marketing money. You really have to give me a good reason to keep sending you these $10,000, $20,000, $50,000 checks, especially after you are stocking a company that we are having a major problem with. They are even trying to steal our name. Haven't you heard?
I'll have to talk to my manager. I may not be able to save the marketing money for you next quarter. My manager has insisted that we concentrate on companies that are protecting our interests, and can show solid sales numbers. If he walks in here and sees Lindows, I'll lose my job. I'll see what I can do, but it doesn't look good. Maybe you can help me out. You know what you need to do. After all, what sales are you really seeing with Lindows? Our marketing payments exceed the gross sales of Lindows, and you are giving them valuable shelf space!?! Maybe you haven't had time to go over the figures. That must be your mistake. Here, let me show you your chain's sales for the past few quarters, and how much money you've been paid for marketing, flyers, slotting, co-branding, television ads, newspaper ads, and more. Now how much did you say your Lindows sales were?...
It's highly unlikely that a chain buyer would even get as far as the last paragraph above. I've sat through similar conversations with chains, and it rarely gets that far. As soon as a retail outlet is threatened with loosing valuable funds, the outlet capitulates faster than Saddam. Every time.
This is how ms will step on linux, and the linux sellers won't know what hit them, and by the time they figure it out, it will be too late, and they won't have the funds to play.
btw, the attorney general of New York, and other states have come out and said that slotting fees are legal. Seagram's started this, and the New York Times or Wall Street Journal had a large article on this in the mid to late 80's, when this first started popping up, when Seagram's originally, allegedly started this, and if I remember correctly, they were mentioned in the article.
One name like C...
Everybody that sucks up to MSFT like this winds
up screwed : IBM , Novell, HP, Apple, etc. Short these guys.
I don't have a problem with MS's logo program. It matters little to me. Office Depot's decision makes no sense for them business-wise UNLESS Microsoft has sweetened the pot by giving them more volume discounts on software, and marketing $$$. Otherwise, why would a BUSINESS resort to limiting their customer's choice of software??
I used to work at Staples and many times people would come in looking for Database or Spreadsheet apps and when comparing prices between Microsoft's products and the alternatives, maybe 3 out of 5 would select the alternative or not buy at all.
This is another way for them to control a means of distribution. First the desktop through OEMs and VARs, now limiting competition through retail outlets.
IF public opinion means anything to Office Depot, and it better or they'll be in trouble, they had better listen to any backlash they get from this announcement.
-- Does anybody know where the 'any' key is on the keyboard?
Hey its their store, its their choice ( unless something funny is going on behind the scenes, remember the Nintendo strong arm tactics of days gone by that ruined Atari and Sega? )
But its also my choice to buy my office supplies elsewhere..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You *have* to look at the system requirement anyway, and you don't need to be "certified" to say that your software runs on Windows.
For that matter, who makes major software purchases at Office Depot anyway? Getting the best price is so much easier online, and unless you woke up and suddenly decided that your office had to use the next version or you were all going to die, the wait for delivery is no problem. I mean, it's one thing when a monitor goes out and you have to have it right now, but I can't conceive of any situation where you would suddenly have to go to OD and buy a shrink-wrapped title.
At any rate, I wager that this is no harm to OD because most of the software they sell is probably "big name brand" stuff. Smaller vendors that don't cert will just keep selling online and through other outlets.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Wintendo!
and equally possible that they are simply tired of selling some stupid camera/mouse/whatever, and having it returned because "it doesn't work in windows xp"
of cheap (cost that is) hardware. It costs money for that stupid little logo. I have yet to pay more than $20 for a keyboard. If more retailers take this stance, it looks like that will be a thing of the past.
IANAL... But I play one on
Do you guys really think Office Depo can't spellcheck before they send email to all of their software suppliers?
This will certainly limit people (a) buy from Office Depot (b) people buying XP. Of course, this will force software developers to panic and get their products certfied, or maybe start to seriously consider switching platforms.
The Inquirer piece abruptly concludes with an alleged Office Depot memo to suppliers. The Inquirer neither explains the circumstance by which they came into possession of this alleged memo nor does it even bother to asert that the "journalist" whose name bylines the story made an attempt to contact Office Depot to verify it's veracity and authenticity.
So much for journalistic credibility. Slashdot has neither the interest or the ethics to verify facts (hiding behind their "we just post other peoples' stuff" alibi), but I guess we can now add another source to the list of online rubbish vendors.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
this hardly seems fair.
I hope some company tries to sue them.
just because they dont want to pay to use the "Designed for Windows XP" logo, they are made to suffer?
If office depot does it, there will be others that follow suit. I suggest that everyone watch this very closely, this will only get more interesting as time goes on.
looks like another tactic of Micro$oft to snatch that last dollar from some small company.
It could mean that some companies have to lay people off to pay the 'Micro$oft tax'
sad..
and virii. (just getting in my jabs)
I'm glad someone is taking a stand for lazy coding. I wish every application had its own unique look and feel. I love spending half an hour trying to figure out where all the menus are, or where the exit option is. I can't wait until uninstallers are spread throughout the system so I can spend 10 minutes trying to get rid of a piece of software. I wish that all help documents were either 8 billion line plain text files or embedded in a custom help browser.
And I am so glad that most programs are installed in subfolders named after the fucking publisher, because the first thing that jumps in my head when I think of Nero is "Ahead", and Neverwinter Nights always makes me think "Bioware".
It says nothing about application software.
Can we stop the "Will they sell Linux" stuff now.
I assume they got sick of people bringing back everything that threw up the "This is not signed" box.
Rebooting is appropriate only for hardware upgrades. The vast majority of Windows apps I've ever seen fail this "appropriateness" requirement.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
Is this ALL we need to do to get projects approved by M$?
From the looks of it here, these requirments seem VERY resasonable (if only KDE and gnome had such restrictions...). We could probably get projects such as Mozilla approved in the program, or is there some sort of cost involved?
Lastly, how do games get approved? 99% of all fullscreen games I've ever played have no way of supporting all these features, ESPECIALLY d3d games. Most games don't alt-tab properly, or run in multiple instances on multiple accounts, and have no way of supporting visual styles.
The same could be said about programs which are intended to be run as admin-only (user managment, disk managment, etc)
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Wow. I don't like "trusted computing" much either, but equating MS to Nazi Germany is a stretch. I call Godwin's Law on you.
Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE
The other weekend, I wandered into a Radio Shack for the first time in a long time, & had a look around. I noticed a couple of shelves where they offered their wireless networking hardware, & looked it over . . .
And was amazed that it was all Microsoft-branded products. Each item priced at least $10 more than what I've seen DLink & LinkSys branded hardware.
Target happened to be in the same mall, so I wandered thru their electronics section, & found that they had a shelf or two of wireless hardware -- also Microsoft branded. I took a moment to study the box containing the wireless PCMCIA card a little more carefully, & found that there was nothing explaining just what kind of chips were used in it. MS could be selling the equivalent of Winmodems here -- chips removed from the motherboard & replaced with software functionality.
I don't know how much of the wireless networking market MS thinks it can grab, but I'm already feeling sorry for the poor phone techs who will be dealing with this poorly documented hardware.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
You posted that shit non-AC?
Office Depot has neither the knowledgeable staff of CompUSA, nor...
Hmm. Does that mean they don't ask you if you want fries with your hard burger, uh, I mean drive?
Deuteronomy 13:06-9
Call Office Depot's customer service number.
1-888-463-3768
What I will be telling them tomorrow morning when I call:
"When I am looking for computer hardware, I usually drive to the store I believe will have what I want, or at least offer me a good selection to pick from. I've bought a wide range of products from your store, including CD blanks, cables, optic mice, a computer chair, and even a digital camera. I see no reason to visit your store if you are deliberately cutting your selection down to what a single software company believes is the right hardware for me. So long as that silly 'Micro$oft-approved products only' rule is in effect at your stores, don't expect to see me or my wallet there."
CALL THEM!
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
There is an entire section devoted to games--the requirements are different. Go look them up.
Microsoft does maintain labs to do testing of products awaiting logo certification. It seems reasonable to guess that there is a fee to cover that cost.
Speaking as a Linux-Lover, A newly-in-love with Mac, a sysadmin and a home & office technician in times of need - I think Linux is still very far from ready for your average office folk. I find it extremly doubtfull that Linux will replace Windows[1], in any near future. [1] or that Windows will be replaced for that matter.
"My mom always said that there are no monsters - no real ones - but there are !"
Iam sure Verisign are thanking Office depot and Microsoft for the 400$ they earn each time a developer wants a digital certificate in order to even apply for a logo application,
Why Do I need a VeriSign Certificate?
A VeriSign certificate provides security for product submissions (if your product contains kernel-mode drivers)
A VeriSign certificate is required to open an account for the Windows logo program
A VeriSign certificate enables secure access to error-reporting data for your product as part of the Windows logo program
how many small developers and shareware authors are going to pony up the cash for their application ? so only those who can afford to play the game can ? sounds fair to me
someone earlier said scam, i say they are right
You may remember me from famous websites.
Just wanted to say hello!!!!
IM the Goatse Guy!! My AIM screenname is GoatsexGuy
That's what this mandate says to me. Keep your eyes open folks! :)
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
I have to laugh that MS is doing such a great job of being a government itself. They continue to prove they cherish the maxim of "Reduce theft by becoming the only thief in town."
Well said. I also especially enjoy spending quality Farscape time looking for leftover files conveniently organised by publisher name. They are arrogant morons, plain and simple.
NM.
1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila floor
I say Let Microsoft go ahead and only allow stores to sell Microsoft certified products. It is the best way to allow mictosoft kill itself. Because the only real reason why People use MS products is because there is more software available for windows then for other OS's. Not because of any other reason. If Micrsoft was putting the big push on DOS then most people will still be using DOS. Just because there would be a large suply of DOS program everyone would use DOS. If Microsoft made the mistake and stopped all DOS Support and Windows 3.1 support in 95 they probably would not have be where it is today. That is also why they are not putting a lot of push in different platforms (PPC, 64bit systems, etc), because if they loose their software base then they loose. Of couse when people tell me about all the software on the system I ask them what they have and usually it is a lot less then what comes withd default on a Linux system
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
from the bad-for-business dept. :(
By May 30th, Office Depot will lose all their customers from the "slashdot" crowd. In other news, Microsoft takes over the world.
Windows Apps Must be Approved.
I don't think Red Hat is a Windows App.
Jaguar, nah
So I guess u ppl are safe.
First: stores will only sell software the M approves.
Second:M will sell commpilers to those who accept restrictive agreements.
Third: Unlicensed software will be contraband.
Fourth: Use an unlicensed compiler. Go to Jail.
Fifth: Sell an unlicensed program: Go to Jail.
Sixth: M patents business concept of all intellectual property.
Seventh: All thoughts are now Microsoft. Use an unlicensed thought. go to Jail.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I had a variable with the word "threat" in it today, and it took every ounce of willpower to stop typing "thread". Indeed I had to go back and correct quite a few instances where I used the latter rather than the former.
Intriguing, no?
I just called this number and got one of the sales drones to confirm some information for me:
1) Bruce Nelson is the CEO of Office Depot.
(bnelson@officedepot.com does not bounce but other permutations do. I got a blank response 24 hours after sending this e-mail. I heard about this yesterday BTW Slashdot.)
2) The corporate phone number is 1-800-937-3600. That is where the sales drone told me to call when I asked her for a number for "corporate policy complaints".
She mentioned that she hasn't heard a lot about this so I suspect many are not calling. Just FYI.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
It's about time someone made it worth software vendor's while to go the extra mile to be certified as "designed for WinXP". You would not believe how poorly designed some big-name brand software is (ie, can only be run by adminstrator or run only by the user who installed it), like Corel Wordperfect 2002 and/or many Adobe products.
I say, amen. Give software vendors an incentive to certify (and fix) their software.
Support remote desktop? Anybody got any clue how I'm supposed to run games, a media player, a movie editor, or video conferencing software on a remote desktop?
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
We may be seeing the early signs of Microsoft's stragegy to get people to switch to their new Palladium version of Windows. Think about how the Palladium version is going to be completely incompatible with existing Windows systems. Pre-Palladium software won't run at all. Documents will not be transferrable between the old and new systems. Users of the new OS will even have to buy new Palladium-equipped PCs.
On the surface this seems insane. There are 40 million people still running Win98, who have never seen fit to upgrade their OS, let alone buy new hardware. Microsoft must have a strategy for making the switch happen. Perhaps they intend to embargo customers who don't switch, controlling the supply of software and hardware. Forcing the diehards to shop at secondhand stores for things like hard drives and video cards might be the Big Lever they use to make the world go where they want it to.
How long do you want to bet it will be before non-Palladium hardware is outright illegal?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I guess you're one of those people who has a start menu and runs program installers on an OS that still uses 8.3 filenames and drive letters.
On my two primary system (my Linux iBook and Linux server) I haven't run a single installer. I don't have a start menu.
For add/removing software I type either "apt-get install foo" or "apt-get remove foo" in a root console. If the need/desire strikes me, I can run "apt-get source foo". If I'm feeling really bored and want to browse software, there are numerous GUI interfaces to apt for me to use.
For menus, I just right click on my background to get a categorized menu of all installed GUI apps. Every installed package has documentation, and every package is updated to the latest version weekly.
It's called Debian GNU/Linux, and it is the best distribution I've ever used.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Well, I decided to try going straight to the horse's mouth, as it were (ewwww! When was the last time this nag saw their dentist?!) I just got off the phone with the store manager at my local Office Despot, and -- are you ready for this? -- I knew more about it (from reading the article) than he did! In fact, he asked me to forward him the URL (which I did).
This tells me that OD may not have even decided where they're going with this right away, outside of getting persnickety with their suppliers. I don't see it affecting "generic" stuff like cables, CD-R media, floppies, etc., nor (according to the manager I spoke with) is it likely to cause them to stop carrying stuff like Linux or FreeBSD packages.
OD is, I was told, in the market to make sure that everything they sell in the computer hardware arena works with everything else they sell in the software arena. Those dreaded "Unsigned Driver" messages are indeed a big sticking point. They're out to provide, in the manager's words, a "Total Solution" to their customers (yes, you can laugh now).
I don't dare invoke Godwin by making a comparison that I'm sure you can guess at. I will say that I've bought maybe two software packages at CompUSA in the last ten years, and I don't see that changing any time soon, especially since you couldn't PAY me to use X(tra)P(ain).
The only other thing I'll add is that, in the long run, I believe this will only increase the demand for older (as in pre-XP and, more importainly, pre-DRM) software and hardware. I think, once again, the used-computer market is about to see another metaphorical shot in the arm (at least from those who know what the frell they're doing).
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Wow, what a bunch of uninformed folk we have here today. Have all the intelligent slashdotters taken a day off?
MS doesn't certify this stuff, they outsource it. They have every reason to want things to be certified and so do users since it keeps things working somewhat sanely.
Pass a set of tests which are published, and get certified. No big deal.
"Works with Windows" is a load of crap. If I am going to spend money buying something for a windows box, I want to know that Windows is not going to have an allergic reaction to it.
This move by Office Depot will cut down on the hordes of morons that buy shrinkwrapped software without bothering to read the bottom of the box where 99% of said software tells what runs with it. Said hordes of morons get angry as hell when the poor minimum wage guy at the returns counter tells them that sorry, but he cannot take the return just because it is not compatible with the customer's computer.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
I don't see why everyone's so up in arms about this. Windows is a proprietary platform, and should by all means take advantage of one of the strongest advantages of its nature: centralized quality control.
Say what you will about Microsoft OSes; they've become stable enough that most crashes IO see are the fault of either hardware, drivers or third-party applications. Having a seal of approval makes a lot of sense in the consumer market: it increases accountability for the platform vendor and tends to raise software quality overall--at least when properly implemented. All game console manufacturers have been doing it since forever, and it's had very few side-effects.
As long as development tools are available to anyone and the testing process is inexpensive and fair, I don't see any problems with this, and I certainly can't draw a straight line from software quality control to tighter DRM, as many of the more paranoid among us seem to be eager to do.
Who buys software at Office Depot anyway? Their prices aren't exactly stellar.
With any version of MacOS, one just drags the icon for the application to the Trash and delete it. This works because of the MacOS stores data on HFS (Hierarchical File-System), HFS+ (Hierarchical File-System Plus), and HFS+J (Hierarchical File-System Plus Journaled):
Classic MacOS puts all of the data for an application into two forks:
What these forks do does not matter for our purposes. All we need to know is that the two forks are tarred together. One simply throws away the application-file.
In System Ten, for reasons of compatiblity, with other Unices, Applications are folders, which, in standard view, look like files. One simply puts the object into the trash and empty it.
The only remains of an application are in:
Preferences are always small files in an XML-language called PLIST. Application support is full of usually small files such as MBOX, Bookmarks, er cetera. The only folder which might fold large ammounts of data is Caches; but luckily however, that gets dumped weekly anyway. Drag-deleting an Application in MacOS only leave a single-digit number of kilobyes of data in Preferences and Application Support.
The reverse of uninstalling in MacOS is just as easy:
For installing, one simply drops the application into:
If one is an Administrative User, one can alternatively drop them into:
It is that simple.
Please support our troops by impeaching Bush before he gets more of our brave soldiers killed.
Impeach Bush
How about you read the article? Specifically, the bit about "devices attached to a computer".
Where the hell does DRM come into this? The official criteria for Windows Logo Certification has nothing to do with DRM. It involes:
- Obtaining a certificate from Verisign ($400)
- Adhering to certain Windows Standards (noting that MS Office 2000 and Media Player would not pass)
That's it. There are no DRM requirements, just making sure your software a) works with the latest Windows version and follows certain standards (not very strict), and b) is code-signed to ensure it is published exactly the way you released it (signed by you, with your own key).
NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
So you can't buy some crappy title at office depot. Go to best buy or comp usa or one of the other countless computer stores. It's not like anyone pays for software anyway.
You've officially earned yourself a blacklist. I'll never buy anything from your store again. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Please go fuck yourself!
HTH, kthxbye!
My friend, you forgot this link:v erisign .mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/winlogo/software/
It's been a while since we looked at the Windows Logo Program (We found our customers didn't care as long as our product performed). The last time we looked though it cost serveral thousands of dollars to carry that windows logo. Has something changed that they no longer charge to go through Microsoft testing labs to get the logo?
Logo requirements exist to ensure a quality user experience.
In my 15 years of coding for Win2x and beyond (20+ years in general) experience, Microsoft has never done anything for the user experience. They have always copied features from Apple and OS/2. The different windows releases are always a major pain to code for. No other OS vendor changes the API's more than Microsoft does. So much for the Win32 independent library that was promised to me over 8 years ago (1995 Windows 3.x, 95, NT3 MSDN conference).
How is this different for you and your company?
I'm not saying Linux is any better. Kernel development under Linux changes between each major
release. The release notes better though (IMHO).
What are your thoughts?
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
I rank those guys somewhere between The Register and the Weekly World News on the journalistic integrity scale.
This story was in the Inquirer, not the Enquirer.
But is there a difference?
Will I retire or break 10K?
This reminds me of the show 'Tommy Boy 1995'
Tommy: "Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting."
Ted: "I'm listening."
Tommy: "Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside."
Ted: "Yeah, makes a man feel good."
Tommy: "Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarentee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter."
Ted: "What's your point?"
Tommy: "The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Build model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times."
Ted: "But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?"
Tommy: "Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me."
Ted: "Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you."
Tommy: "Well I...What?!"
I will now avoid shopping at office depot whenever possible.
Microsoft offers that logo to products that maintain a certain level of usability and quality. It's no different than after-market products for cars. Ford isn't going to allow a manufacturer of carburetors to use its logo if Ford can't vouch for the quality of the product. Ensuring quality of software that claims "Designed for Windows" is vital to the perception and marketability of the platform.
:)
Has something changed that they no longer charge to go through Microsoft testing labs to get the logo?
I don't see a way around this. To ensure product quality, someone has to test it. Unfortunately, software testing costs money, and a lot of it. I assume that the costs are as low as possible, since it is in Microsoft's interests (as far as copies of Windows sold) to have as many "Designed for Windows" products on the market as possible. Microsoft doesn't make its $20 billion a year on logo licenses.
I'll politely disagree with your statement about Microsoft's viewpoints on user experience. I know quite a few Microsoft employees, and they work hard on usability and specific user scenarios (e.g. user experience). I'll also dispute your claim to Microsoft's creativity. Those same folks don't sit around all day looking at everyone else's products thinking about the best way to copy them. Features arise from customer requests, proposals from other teams, and old-fashioned brainstorming and innovation.
I could quote examples of original features all day--as you could name examples where Microsoft copied Apple. Our respective views on Microsoft are largely subjective, and I doubt we'll convince each other.
How is this different for you and your company?
As for the Win32 API and logo compliance: yes it's a pain in the ass. The first example (for the product I develop) that comes to mind was the transition to Unicode. Pre-Win2K didn't support it, so there's a bunch of code in the product that handles both cases. I think that the Unicode extension of Win32 is A Good Thing however, and it was worth doing the work. Work is required for logo compliance, but I think the logo requirements are worth striving for--they define behaviors for a "good app" that users expect.
As bad as the stability of Win32 may be, it's better than the Java spec
I will not purchase any hardware that has a Microsoft Warning Label on it unless it also comes with some clear indication that it actually works with something else. That is a quick way to get locked into something that only has Windows drivers. Once the vendor decides to stop supporting it, or goes bankrupt, it may become a completely inert piece of junk. No thanks.
This has nothing to do with a preference in OSes. I make the same recommendation to Windows users. It is an easy way to spot the fly-by-night companies that think their hardware is so hot that we will happily use it with only their drivers, never needing any improvement over whatever buggy crap they've graced us with.
Not that I doubt you, but how can you have 15 years coding experience on Win2k? IIRC, Windows 1.0 appeared in 1987/88 and it was nothing like what is known today as "Windows." (8086 memory model, with a 64k max text segment size for Windows applications). I still have my manuals from Windows 1.0 (but I've lost the 360k floppies).
I didn't buy another version of Windows until 3.0 (and neither did virtually anyone else). A handful of businesses used Windows/286/386 to replace dedicated word processing machines, but not many. It was 3.0, followed quickly by 3.1 that first started capturing market share.
Maybe I misunderstood you. Or maybe you really did code for Windows 1.0. I know I didn't. I fired it up, played reversi a few times (no Solitare yet -- the real first "killer app" for Windows), and went back to Turbo C (no C++ for DOS yet) and Pascal.
MS driver certification is not that big of a deal in terms of logistics. Typically, it is self-certification - you pass the tests, submit logs to Microsoft, and get the driver signed - costs about $200 (bit less for repeats).
A lot of drivers are not signed simply because they are buggy and cannot pass the tests, not due to some nefarious activity on the part of Microsoft.
Exactly. Not to mention it makes 3rd party vendors update thier code. Microsoft themself can't do it because some stupid company who can't write software *cough*NetScape*cough* will run to Trashcroft and the DoJ and scream anti-trust. Personally I am glad. I just bought Emperor: Battle for Dune and can't get it to work. Electronics Arts discontinued support so I have to hack-n-slash a way to get a gme I really like to work.
Anonymous Cowards generally receive no replies because you're a coward and I'm a bitch
preview.officedepot.com is quite prominently being announced as "the new officedepot.com", so maybe it's actually going to replace the old server.
Sure, this is lame, but what's the big deal about installing the driver more than once? Doesn't take that long. It's a silly thing to have to do, but if that were the silliest thing in Windows, Valium sales would be much lower!
This would be OK if some third party like Underwriters Laboratories or Consumers Union did the certification. But Microsoft wouldn't go for that.
Microsoft will alse use the new, incompatible MS-Office 2003 file format as leverage for forcing DRM. The first step will be to reach critical mass with DRM encumbered software through new purchases or license 6. Part of this first step will be to force MS-server 2003 into each work site. Once the software is in place, then second step is the hardware. Once both are in place, your data is hostage.
The only apparent way to eliminate this problem in the near term is to steadfastly refuse any hardware with any DRM whatsoever. Failure to avoid DRM hardware will be walking into an economic tarpit.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
1.6 Support new visual styles
Funny how Office XP fails this.
How do YOU burn your CD-R disks without attaching them to a computer? With a lighter? (not many people use CD-R stereo components or CD-R writing digital cameras, but they do exist. Of course, they are in effect ... computers!)
That little mirror thing ... it's sold to be attached to a computer. (your monitor is part of your computer, is it not?)
What do YOU do with a printer cable? Attach it to your kitchen sink?
I guess that you could argue that a printer cartridge isn't attached to your computer, but instead to your printer ... but your printer is either 1) attached to your computer or 2) considered to be part of your computer.
"Microsoft released Windows XP, which has become the fastest growing operating system in history"
Oh I really believe this one!
I've been using a Dos menu program for years to
launch Windows 9x apps. Usualy, I set the entries
in the menu to the default directories that the
program installs to so I won't have to monkey
around with it's configuration files should I
need to uninstal/reinstall.
It only takes a few minutes to write an entry
into a config file and make sure it's pointed
to the right directory and executable.
What a sin... and I really enjoed shopping at Office Depot. Guess its time to find a new stationary store.
--#!
If you believe that Office Depot has made a mistake (or even if you don't), tell them yourself. I did.
Customer Service Email
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
There's this little thing called the "Doctrine of First Sale". It is a legal construct that states that after a physical item is sold there is very little that the original owner/creator can assert over the item. This was first tested when book printers tried to "license" books and limit their use. Complete flame-out on their part in the court system.
So, let's take a look at the "contract law" dodge. Software companies have been fighting for years to place EULA's under contract law. The problem is that these are not mutually agreed upon contracts where all the terms are agreed upon up front and signed and witnessed. Instead it's a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo that you don't even get to see until AFTER the purchase.
Now, the fallacy of trying to extend these "contracts" onto hardware is completely laughable. First off, the EULA's main power comes from copyright. There's no copyright on hardware. It has taken a new legislative effort in the DMCA and the attempts to pass the UCITA to even introduce the idea of licenses for hardware. Well, those attempts have managed limited success for the license crowd but they're certainly still on less than firm footing.
I find it amazing that you think it's perfectly legal for someone to sell you something and then say "oh by the way, you can't use it except for this" AFTER the sale.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Not that I doubt you, but how can you have 15 years coding experience on Win2k 2003 - 1988/89, I may have been off by a +/- year. I remember after my boss handed me the windows 2.0 disks of thinking how much more advanced the Macintosh's toolbox (APW) was. Remember the Microsoft workbench? This was about the same time I had first received my copy of Microsoft's OS/2 v1.3 (Still have the box sitting on my shelf).
:) Anyway, thats why we were looking at Windows and OS2. We eventually switched the machines to QEMM.
A handful of businesses used Windows/286/386 to replace dedicated word processing machines, but not many.
Nope, we had hundreds of DOS machines (8088/286/386) all running/sharing printers and performing batch jobs. Do you remember 3Com Lan Manager? At the time, my employer thought we could save money by having these machines running multiple jobs at the same time. Go figure
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
"Designed for Windows ex-PO'ds" :-D
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Please note: Office Max is not Office Depot . Don't accidentally boycott the wrong store!
If MS wants to make copy restriction work, it'll do it by certifying drivers. Then it won't matter where you buy something.
I don't know what in the name of hell this Office Depot policy has to do with anything.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
The wonderful bookshop Foyles was organised for many years by publisher, and still partly is.
I sometimes think "hey, I wonder if the latest Addison-Wesley book is out yet." Luckily they are kept separate from the SAMs books and the ...for dummies ones, so I have less to search. :-)
If you look at SAMs Club it also has a preference for MS products.
Sorry, that post does NOT deserve Score 5 insightful.
The problem the poster is referring to is actually a problem with Windows itself (it affects all versions). It is especially annoying on a Windows 2000 system where the driver must be installed by an administrative user. On XP one is at least prompted for an admin login/password.
The only thing to do is do exactly what the manufacturer recommends and install the driver on each USB port. It's a well known problem. It even effects mice and keyboards!
I still can't understand why Microsoft did things this way, but they did, so all you can do is live with it or go get a real OS.
I wonder if Office Depot actually read their own memo. It says "all products which connect to a personal computer must carry the 'Designed for WindowsXP logo'."
So, since a PalmPilot can "attach to a personal computer", and it isn't "Designed for WindowsXP", they're going to stop carrying it?!?!
Ditto for the rest of the PDA's they sell. Even stuff running WindowsCE wasn't "Designed for WindowsXP".
Obviously, since the Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE, OSX, etc don't carry a "Designed for WindowsXP" label, they're going to have to stop selling them.
Time to find a new place to buy miscellanous business supplies.
Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
For a free installer, search for Inno Setup on Google. IMO it's better than the commercial ones for moderatrly simple purposes. I don't know NSIS as a developer, but as a user I hate it... it just doesn't look right for me.
Not designed for Windows XP
That "3 columns wide" start menu clutter *isn't* caused by every program having a ton of icons. It's caused mostly by programs that fail to *organise* their own icons and try to put everything in the first level menu. Smart programs put a *directory* under either Start Menu itself, or under Programs, and organise their icons under that. Smarter programs group by type, reducing clutter even further.
My start menu has 316 icons. It also has 83 subdirectories. Most of those were built by smart installers. Some I had to make myself, to relocate icons dropped in a pile under "Programs" by stupid installers.
As a best-case example -- between CorelDraw and and the WordPerfect Suite, there are 61 default icons. But that comes out to only ONE item on the Start Menu, called "Corel". Under that, one more item for each suite. Under each of those, we find a handful of icons for the main program components, and several more subfolders containing various toolsets and whatever aren't "daily use" type things.
Yeah, so you have to unfold a couple more layers of menu to get to 'em, big deal. The tidiness and organization is worth it, and you only have to do that work once.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Oh, yes... I hear ya! I'm reminded of the time I came across a program that had no exit keystroke. None. And it didn't respond to ALT-F4. It could only be closed using the mouse and the exit button. And at the time, the mouse wasn't working. I had to reset the computer to close that stupid app. Needless to say, that's the last time I ever used it.
I can understand something like MacroMedia or Corel being organised by publisher, because users of those apps tend to think of them by publisher name as much as by appname. (Corel is smart enough to duplicate the WordPerfect menu where newbies will find it under Programs, WP, too.) But "Ahead"?? Who the hell associates "Nero" with "Ahead"?? Til I got around to moving it to "Tools, CDRW, Nero", I had to hunt for the stupid thing every time I used it.
Nifty Trick: subdirs directly under \windows\Start Menu\ will show up as top-level menu items, neatly grouped *above* Programs. (Don't start one with U, it'll confuse matters if you do Winkey, U, like I do for shutdown. Hence my "Tools" instead of "Utilities".)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Office Despot will no longer get any of my business. Clearly Office Despot is not interesting in selling quality software but only that which offers the biggest payback.
Unfortuantly, small software vendors, open source and linux are affected. Windoze will continue to lumber on unhindered by competition.
I hope Office Despot falls flat on their face for this one.
Read the EULA. They devote two or three pages to disclaiming any sort of liability for anything the software does. That shiny new office suite could leap out of the box, devour your computuer in a single gulp, slit your throat, steal your wallet and keys, impregnate your daughter, and run off to Vegas to gamble away your life's savings and you would have no legal recourse against MS.
0 1 - just my two bits
Not to steal your thunder, but I just picked up a copy of WinXP, and it does indeed have the logo on it.
I suppose I really should've posted a "package manager advocacy" post.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
2. What part of a job would "require" Windows? I installed Linux at my summer job (Java programming for a local company) with no complaints from my boss. Especially when I showed that I developed 4-10 times as fast in Linux. I used OpenOffice/Abiword/KOffice/etc to view those damn word/powerpoint files that happened to get in my way without trouble. Even though I left winshit in case it became necessary, it never was.
3. If Linux didn't kick so much ass it wouldn't have so many zealots. The same goes for Apple.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
There IS no Microsoft driver certification program for Bluetooth products yet, which is why all BT drivers on the market are unsigned.
So this would mean that any technology, which is new enough not to have a driver cert program in place, will not be sold by Office Depot. "New" here apparently includes things that are a couple of years old but haven't penetrated to the masses.
Way to go. I am sure this is the right business decision to attract high-tech workers as regular customers. NOT.
And my 802.11b card, which worked fine under Win98, would probably also work fine in Windows 2000, except the office laptops run in "You're Not The Administrator mode, so if I get the admin to let me plug it into the machine, it'll stop again if I pop the card out and later pop it in again. (Sigh....)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The box says "For the best experience on Windows XP, look for products that carry the Designed for Windows XP logo." So the logo itself does not pertain to the Windows XP.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
I emailed Office Depot Customer Service about this policy. This was their response:
o t.com>
From: "Customer-Relations"<Customer.Relations@OfficeDep
To: "'XXXXXXX@yahoo.com'" <XXXXXXX@yahoo.com>
Subject:Ref Number: 0459208A
Date:Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:30:31-0500
Dear Mr. XXXXXX:
We are in receipt of your E-mail and thank you for your interest in Office Depot. The article you mention in your E-mail contains inaccuracies in both the information presented and the conclusions drawn. Office Depot will continue to carry a broad array of products in its stores. In addition, through our website, www.techdepot.com, we stock over 60,000 different technology items and will continue to stock them. In fact, the broad assortment stocked by our www.techdepot.com website is accessible in all of our stores via our Internet kiosk. We trust this fuller explanation addresses the concerns that you expressed.
Sincerely
Customer Relations
Office Depot, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXXX@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:12 AM
To: Orders
Subject: 1407 Other Company Information
Name: XXXXXXX XXXXXX
email: XXXXXXX@yahoo.com
Phone Number:
Order No:
Web Account:
Response Requested
Message: According to this article, Office Depot will drop all products not carrying the "Windows XP" logo:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8472
I shop at Office Depot. I want access to a variety of products, including those computer products which do not bear Microsoft's approval. Please, drop this policy, and continue to stock products which do not bear Microsoft's logo.
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
Dear Sir or Madam: We are in receipt of your E-mail and thank you for your interest in Office Depot. The article you mention in your E-mail contains inaccuracies in both the information presented and the conclusions drawn. Office Depot will continue to carry a broad array of products in its stores. In addition, through our website, www.techdepot.com, we stock over 60,000 different technology items and will continue to stock them. In fact, the broad assortment stocked by our www.techdepot.com website is accessible in all of our stores via our Internet kiosk. We trust this fuller explanation addresses the concerns that you expressed. Sincerely Customer Relations Office Depot, Inc.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Telephone books are like dictionaries -- if you know the answer before
you look it up, you can eventually reaffirm what you thought you knew
but weren't sure. But if you're searching for something you don't
already know, your fingers could walk themselves to death.
-- Erma Bombeck
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