Wozniak Unveils WozNet

dki writes "Steve Wozniak's WozNet is covered in an article at the New York Times today. His company Wheels of Zeus, mentioned previously on Slashdot last year, plans to create wireless networks that use GPS to track clusters of electronic tags within a 1- or 2-mile radius of a base station. The tags "will be able to generate alerts, notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school, a dog leaves the yard or a car leaves the parking lot.""

Comments

tracking everything

[ianmalcm]

Big Brother at a consumer level.

wonderful.

Re:tracking everything

[dema]

Since when did the terms "convinence" and "Big Brother" get so confusing for people?

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

Big Brother at a consumer level.

wonderful.

To my mind, there were only 1 problem with big brother:
The information was not universal. That is, only the government had access. If the general public had access to the same data, it would have been OK. ie. The problem was not that the govenernment had too much data, it was that it did not share it.

I know that sounds crazy to half the /.ers, but the other half should love it, right? Information wants to be free, right? Your location and activities ARE WHO YOU ARE. I don't believe that the government should have access to that information - I believe everyone should [unless your in a private place, say your own home, then just your location should be available :-]

The moniker(sp, sorry) "Big Brother" implies something: they were like family looking out for you. So, yes, this stuff is "Big Brother"ish - but in the sense that you can look out for your family, not that the government can spy on you. You just have to look for the original meaning of the term.

Re:tracking everything

[lazira]

Since when are we opposed to technology? Like freenet and every other technology, this has the potential for both good and bad use. Woz has proposed a perfectly legitimate use for tracking technology. If the government ever proposes tracking us with it, THEN we can start an uproar.

Re:tracking everything

[anthony_dipierro]

Since when did the terms "convinence" and "Big Brother" get so confusing for people?

Since 1984 was written.

Re:tracking everything

[anthony_dipierro]

To my mind, there were only 1 problem with big brother: The information was not universal.

Well, there was the whole constant war thing, the mandatory minutes of hate, and the fact that the inner party had to have two-way TVs in their houses in the first place, but you're right that the main problem was lack of information. The constant changing of records, the reductionism of the language, the suppression of dissent.

Your location and activities ARE WHO YOU ARE. I don't believe that the government should have access to that information - I believe everyone should [unless your in a private place, say your own home, then just your location should be available :-]

I'm sure this will be forced upon school children at some point. Considering that Woz is a teacher that was probably a large part of his inspiration. School is mandatory and public schools are funded by the government. School children may have lesser rights in some instances, but they do have rights.

Re:tracking everything

[nordicfrost]

Uh, no. Track what wants to be tracked. Don't wanna be tracked? Fin. Don't carry the Woznet device around with you. Want to have some privacy for a while? Leave it at home.

Re:tracking everything

[anthony_dipierro]

Woz has proposed a perfectly legitimate use for tracking technology.

Which one was that?

If the government ever proposes tracking us with it, THEN we can start an uproar.

When I read that it could be used for "notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school," I assumed the government would be involved in that one. They may not be tracking me, but then again, neither were the Nazi Germans.

The technology isn't bad, but if the government ever starts forcing people (that includes school children) to use it, that is bad.

Re:tracking everything

[mickwd]

Consider this: What if a paedophile managed to hack into the system, and then had instant access to the exact locations of thousands of children ? Maybe he can find one on their own, somewhere quiet.

Given the level of fear over people using their credit card numbers on computers connected to the internet, I can't see people being happy with a device that broadcasts their child's exact location on any sort of public network, "encrypted" or otherwise.

If I had children, I certainly wouldn't. And I would also want my children to have some sort of life, and the chance to enjoy the freedoms I did as a child.

Re:tracking everything

[switcha]

Want to have some privacy for a while? Leave it at home.

Oh sure, then everyone will think I just sit around the house all day... Oh, wait...

Re:tracking everything

[eggnet]

Because pedaphiles have a tough time finding vulnerable children today.

Re:tracking everything

[Hatta]

Indeed. I think this should be under YRO rather than Apple.

Re:tracking everything

[ShieldW0lf]

So how much is the surgery?

Can you put it in a kid, or do you need to wait for them to stop growing first?

ALERT!! ALERT!! Your daughter is back at that lowlife-she-calls-a-boyfriends house again!!

Computer, locate shotgun...

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry you're having a tough time finding children to moleste. Maybe you can try your local Wal-Mart. In any case, please keep you pedophilia to yourself. This is not the forum for discussing it. Thank you.

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

To my mind, there were only 1 problem with big brother: The information was not universal.

Well, there was the whole constant war thing, the mandatory minutes of hate, and the fact that the inner party had to have two-way TVs in their houses in the first place, but you're right that the main problem was lack of information. The constant changing of records, the reductionism of the language, the suppression of dissent.

OK, I guess I meant the "Big Brother is Watching You" aspect.

Was there really a war? That and the changing of records were problems that arose from the control of information by the government. If Jill Public had access, that kind of think couldn't happen [easily].

As for inner party members requiring 2-way TV's... I believe that our publicly elected officials SHOULD be monitored *by the public*. Even in the home? Probably not. But full webcam w/ audio in the office? Yup.

When I'm elected, I promise to implement it in my office! :-)

Re:tracking everything

[Kombat]

What if a paedophile managed to hack into the system, and then had instant access to the exact locations of thousands of children ?

You mean like cracking open a phone book and looking under "Schools?" Or did you mean picking up a local tourism brochure and flipping to the "Playgrounds" section? Perhaps even something as evil and insidious as looking up daycare centers on the Internet using YellowPages.com?

Maybe he can find one on their own, somewhere quiet.

Near enough that he/she won't be gone by the time the pervert arrives? "Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl?) in the trees near Seattle. If I catch the 7:00 commuter flight out of San Diego and make the connection in Chicago, I can be there by ... " Sure.

Given the level of fear over people using their credit card numbers on computers connected to the internet,

Bad example. Those "fears" are nothing more than irrational, uneducated, paranoid FUD. The Internet is a far safer place to exercise your credit card than virtually all physical retail outlets.

Re:tracking everything

[rthille]

I think I'll leave mine at work!

(oh wait, I work from home now :-)

Re:tracking everything

[sapped]

Consider this: What if a paedophile managed to hack into the system, and then had instant access to the exact locations of thousands of children ? Maybe he can find one on their own, somewhere quiet.

Consider this: Now the cops can use the GPS ID that you have just supplied to them and they can nail the guy immediately.

Re:tracking everything

[leeet]

The chances of having a (very computer-wise skilled) paedophile so desperate that he needs to break in a system are slim I guess. Why bother "hacking" in a database when all you need is to cruise down to your local park?

First of all, the way I see the system, the tags will simply emit an "ID" and it's up to you to describe the ID in your software. This is most likely a distributed DB (independent on every sites). So if there's a system at a school and you break in the DB, bravo, you just found out that there ARE kids at the school (duh). And if you break in a private/backyard place and find out there are kids there too, well what next? Why not just park your car and wait. No break in, much easier.

Re:tracking everything

[Kaa]

To my mind, there were only 1 problem with big brother:
The information was not universal. That is, only the government had access. If the general public had access to the same data, it would have been OK. ie. The problem was not that the govenernment had too much data, it was that it did not share it.

Yeah, the David Brin's idea of a Transparent Society.

I don't see how having my personal information available to everyone, not just the government, is better or not Big Brother.

So if a nosy neighbor of mine can find out how often I buy condoms that's a good thing? Just because I can find out how much beer he buys in a week?

I don't want to live in an aquarium. And putting that aquarium out into the street instead of keeping it in an authorized-access-only place doesn't really help here.

Re:tracking everything

[mickwd]

"You mean like cracking open a phone book and looking under "Schools?" Or did you mean picking up a local tourism brochure and flipping to the "Playgrounds" section? Perhaps even something as evil and insidious as looking up daycare centers on the Internet using YellowPages.com?"

That's completely different from what I was getting at, and you know it.

You split my first paragraph, whose sentences are related, so you can criticise the first sentence, just to make a smart comment about it being easy to find large groups of children in controlled, supervised groups. My second sentence said "maybe he can find a child on their own, somewhere quiet". I'm obviously not talking about the ease of finding children in places like schools.

""Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl?) in the trees near Seattle. If I catch the 7:00 commuter flight out of San Diego and make the connection in Chicago, I can be there by ... " Sure."

"Hey, there's one by itself (boy or girl, does it really matter to this sort of sicko ?) down by the river, just down the road from here". Good job I haven't had to hang around there for the past few weeks - I'm sure many people would have noticed me hanging around, looking suspicious - maybe some of them would have been able to describe what I look like.

Those "fears" are nothing more than irrational, uneducated, paranoid FUD. The Internet is a far safer place to exercise your credit card than virtually all physical retail outlets."

You know that, I know that. But millions of people out there don't, which is why those fears exist.

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... so it's okay for Woz to track our every movement, but no one else??

Actually, now that I think about it, I totally agree! If we must have an all-seeing dictator, Woz would be just about the best you could imagine.

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

In 1984, the problem is not that the government knows what you're doing or not - it is that they are the only authority. They know more than anyone else, because they see more than anyone else. If everyone had access to the data, they could not lie or mislead the public about what is or is not going on.

The truth is that nobody cares how many condoms you buy, but if they did, they could find out (or at least the government could). Credit card records, receipts, video, or just going through your trash.

I don't want to live in an aquarium. And putting that aquarium out into the street instead of keeping it in an authorized-access-only place doesn't really help here.

You do live in an aquarium - though the water may be a little murky, all's that's needed for a clear view is a little effort by the owner of the tank. The only reason you want that aquarium in a secure location is because you trust the government or you haven't considered the issue. That sounds like flamebait, but I don't mean it that way - if you can think of a response that doesn't fall into that category, I'd love to hear it.

I'm actually NOT advocating putting cameras on every corner. But there are a lot of cameras around... What I am advocating is that everyone should have access to those cameras that are pointed at public spaces.

Re:tracking everything

[mepex]

An interesting corollary would be Bentham's/Foucault's idea of a Panopticon- a prison in which all prisoners would be watched by all other prisoners. The idea would be that everyone would control their behavior according to the norm because of the possiblity or likelihood that someone/everyone is watching.

Although I'd be surprised if the societal reaction to this kind of thing would be of sudden or increased desire to play by the rules, I'd be equally surprised if the powers that be aren't already aware of the concept.

Re:tracking everything

[anthony_dipierro]

Was there really a war?

There certainly was at one point. And there was something being used to destroy all the results of natural human progress. The war was used to keep people stupid.

As for inner party members requiring 2-way TV's... I believe that our publicly elected officials SHOULD be monitored *by the public*. Even in the home? Probably not. But full webcam w/ audio in the office? Yup.

Well, I most certainly disagree with that. Elected officials have just as much of a right to privacy as us proles.

When I'm elected, I promise to implement it in my office! :-)

With ideas like that, I have to hope that never happens :).

Re:tracking everything

[Suidae]

I'd agree that stalking type uses are a potential drawback of locator technology, but I kind of lump it in there with the drawback of driving cars (you know, the whole dying-on-the-highway thing).

The 'protecting the children from rapists' thing is a dumb argument anyway, the large majority of assults are by family members or other trusted non-strangers.

Locator technology will be extremely useful, and as technology advances, difficult to avoid. It does kind of open up some sticky privacy issues, mostly if the locators are small enough to be easily hidden. Even if normal consumer devices advertised their presence to any scanner (allowing any person to scan their general area and remove unwanted locators) I can imagine that the government would be pretty keen to have their own version that didn't identify itself. These would both be useful from a law enforcement prespective (unubtrusive monitoring of probationary subjects, warranted tracking of suspects, etc), and easy to abuse if not handled pretty strictly, like wire taps.

Re:tracking everything

[diverman]

Since when it is Big Brother to know if your car is in the place it's supposed to be?

And keeping track of your kids... that's a parent's JOB! Granted, when your kids get to be teen agers, a parent should start to separate and trust their kids to be in the right place. But who are you to say that a parent shouldn't have such a right or option? I think it's great for younger kids though. Puts a parent's mind at ease in a big way to know that their child is in the right place.

Now, if someone else puts a tracking device on MY car, or MY child, you're damn right I will be finding out who that info is going to and sue them or have them put in jail.

-Alex

Re:tracking everything

[Zan Zu from Eridu]

I'm actually NOT advocating putting cameras on every corner. But there are a lot of cameras around... What I am advocating is that everyone should have access to those cameras that are pointed at public spaces.

I think this is a very bad idea for different reasons. a) If these images become public domain, victims of rape, assault, etc. might find they have become some pervert's all time favorite moviestar. b) It might be very useful for criminal activity also. c) If you're worried about companies tracking your activities, realize you've just locked the kid in the candystore.

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on.. I'm sure Waz has it planned so the paedophile would have tracer on too. So you'd get an alert saying your kids being attacked one...

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

a) If these images become public domain, victims of rape, assault, etc. might find they have become some pervert's all time favorite moviestar.

Good point.

b) It might be very useful for criminal activity also.

I'll take the good with the bad.

c) If you're worried about companies tracking your activities, realize you've just locked the kid in the candystore.

I'm not.

Re:tracking everything

[Goaway]

Hah. You mean you hadn't noticed the immense technophobia that permeates Slashdot? The knee-jerk condemnations of anything seen as a tool of "Big Brother"? One wonders how many of these people have even read _1984_.

Re:tracking everything

[Darby]

So if a nosy neighbor of mine can find out how often I buy condoms that's a good thing? Just because I can find out how much beer he buys in a week?

Well, if you're just buying condoms and he's just buying beer, then I'd say, "Advantage Kaa".

Re:tracking everything

[Delphiki]

What, you implying iTunes Music Store won't pave the way for Bill Gates obtaining DRM rights over my soul? (Yes, my soul is digital)

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Hm, I take you'll be signing up for a nudist colony then?

And what about those of us with more than one persona?

If your wife is kinky in the bedroom, she might not be able to hang out with the church ladies any more. (or vice versa :O )

Privacy is important to mental defense mechanisms.

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on.. I'm sure Waz has it planned so the paedophile would have tracer on too. So you'd get an alert saying your kids being attacked one...

Ah, brilliant.

"Your child is being attacked on the other side of town. If you drop everything and break every imaginable traffic law, you might be able to get there too late."

Re:tracking everything

[turpie]

While some sicko might be able to take advantage of this system to find kids, what about the assistance it would provide to parents and police in tracking down the kids whereabouts before being snatched.

Re:tracking everything

[Anonymous Coward]

When I read that it could be used for "notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school," I assumed the government would be involved in that one.

Nice job of reading the article. You know what they say about assuming...it makes you look fucking stupid.

Re:tracking everything

[HarvDog]

Here's another perspective:

If I install LoJack in my car, isn't there the ?slim? chance that someone could hack into the system and use it to track my whereabouts?

At the same time, if someone steals my car, I like the idea of the police being able to find it quickly.

Is it a tradeoff? I don't know.

When someone stole my new printer from the front porch where UPS left it, I wish there had been one of these tags in the box.

Re:tracking everything

[Chris Burke]

In 1984, the problem is not that the government knows what you're doing or not - it is that they are the only authority. If everyone had access to the data, they could not lie or mislead the public about what is or is not going on.

This is simply untrue. The problem was not that the government had sole access to information, it was that the government had access to that information and had the power to act upon it. Did it matter that both the government and your neighbor knew you had committed ThoughtCrime? No, you would still disappear. Remember how neighbors were encouraged to spy on and report their neighbors, and children on their parents? The government used the people as part of their spy network -- given that, how would giving your spying neighbors access to the same information as your government -help-?

And don't forget that the data can be doctored just as surely as a news reel about that data can be doctored.

The truth is that nobody cares how many condoms you buy, but if they did, they could find out (or at least the government could).

Now that we're talking about reality, you're even more wrong. There certainly are people who care how many condoms you buy. And they care about who you use those condoms with, and exactly what you do with them. How do you reconcile your transparent society with our society that until recently had places where it was illegal for a couple to have anal sex in the privacy of their own home? Take away the privacy that makes finding these heinous deviants difficult, and you make matters worse, not better.

Credit card records, receipts, video, or just going through your trash.


I have yet to hear of a forensic technique that can overcome the effects of a shredder followed by an incinerator. But if the government has to sift through the trash of 200 million Americans in order to find out who is buying excessive amounts of condoms, I can live with that.

You do live in an aquarium - though the water may be a little murky, all's that's needed for a clear view is a little effort by the owner of the tank.

In most cases, "clearing the water" is illegal In those cases where it isn't (the police, with a warrant), it should be more difficult to do so and have greater oversight.

So long as it remains difficult to spy on each individual, then the overwhelming ratio of individuals to those willing and able to make the effort to spy then we are not living in aquariums. Give complete access to everyone's lives, and you've turned "ThoughtCrime" legislation like the sodomy laws go from being statements of moral distaste to a practical enforcement scenario.

You cannot equate the ability of the police to spy on an individual and thus eliminate that individual's privacy with ubiquitous surveillance that makes spying on everyone easy and eliminates everyone's privacy. As long as the effort required to spy on an individual is not insubstantial, and more to the point must be done on an individual basis, then the notion of privacy does still exist.

The only reason you want that aquarium in a secure location is because you trust the government or you haven't considered the issue.

I don't trust the government at all, which is why I want the aquarium in a secure location. You are the one who has not considered the consequences of taking a society that very much wants to regulate what you do behind closed doors and then removing the ability to close your doors. You have not considered reality and how a transparent society would work in the real world, where live-and-let-live idealized libertarians are a tiny portion of the population, and certainly not represented in government. Transparent society could only lead to greater freedom in a perfectly tolerant utopia. It cannot bring said utopia about, and in the absence absence of utopia aids totalitarianism.

I'm actually NOT advocating putting cameras on every corner. But there

Re:tracking everything

[kwerle]

This is simply untrue. The problem was not that the government had sole access to information, it was that the government had access to that information and had the power to act upon it. Did it matter that both the government and your neighbor knew you had committed ThoughtCrime?...

I think we disagree on a fundamental level about what conditions laws are enforced, and how often they're broken but not enforced. I think this problem has contributed to the number of unreasonable laws that are 'optionally enforced'. What's more, there is a big difference between your neighbor narcing on your thoughtcrime (did you really commit it?), the government revealing they have evidence of your thought crime (do they really), and the entire society having equal access to the evidence of it, as well as evidence to their own, their neighbors, and the govenerment's thoughtcrimes - at which point it makes a lot less sense to punish you for yours.

And don't forget that the data can be doctored just as surely as a news reel about that data can be doctored.

It is [currently] hard to doctor realtime video and sound - especially when you don't know what is going to happen ahead of time.

Now that we're talking about reality, you're even more wrong. There certainly are people who care how many condoms you buy. And they care about who you use those condoms with, and exactly what you do with them. How do you reconcile your transparent society with our society that until recently had places where it was illegal for a couple to have anal sex in the privacy of their own home? Take away the privacy that makes finding these heinous deviants difficult, and you make matters worse, not better.

The fact is that these heinous deviants are neither heinous nor very deviant. Facts that have only recently "come to light" as more of these folk have "come out of the closet." I think this case is in my favor, as a more transparent society has shown these laws to be rediculous pretenses for random prejudice.

I have yet to hear of a forensic technique that can overcome the effects of a shredder followed by an incinerator. But if the government has to sift through the trash of 200 million Americans in order to find out who is buying excessive amounts of condoms, I can live with that.

And that is also my point - if you think sifting through garbage is a chore, try sifting through video...

Give complete access to everyone's lives, and you've turned "ThoughtCrime" legislation like the sodomy laws go from being statements of moral distaste to a practical enforcement scenario.

No, I think we've turned it into a pretty clearly unsound cause for prejudice - and thus discard the law.

You have not considered reality and how a transparent society would work in the real world, where live-and-let-live idealized libertarians are a tiny portion of the population, and certainly not represented in government.

And here I always though libertarians were live-and-let-die, but that's another discussion.

Transparent society could only lead to greater freedom in a perfectly tolerant utopia. It cannot bring said utopia about, and in the absence absence of utopia aids totalitarianism.

See; we do disagree. I think that a more transparent society has brought about the downfall of sodomy laws.

But public should remain public, and private private. Eliminate the difference, and you have 1984.

I disagree. If the general public had access to the same data as the government did, I don't think 1984 could have existed.

Re:tracking everything

[Chris Burke]

I think we disagree on a fundamental level about what conditions laws are enforced, and how often they're broken but not enforced. I think this problem has contributed to the number of unreasonable laws that are 'optionally enforced'.

So you want to make it easier to enforce the unreasonable laws across the board?

Sodomy laws were very difficult to enforce. The only reason the case that resulted in the SCOTUS striking down Texas' law was seen is because one of the guy's neighbors narced on them (with a false accusation), and then the police busted in and caught them.

If the neighbor had been able to view the real-time footage of the guys illegal actions, would that have been better, or worse, for his narcing?

What's more, there is a big difference between your neighbor narcing on your thoughtcrime (did you really commit it?), the government revealing they have evidence of your thought crime (do they really), and the entire society having equal access to the evidence of it, as well as evidence to their own, their neighbors, and the govenerment's thoughtcrimes - at which point it makes a lot less sense to punish you for yours.

First, you will never have equal access to the government's crimes. Even a fantasy non-corrupt 100% benevolent government would require some secrecy for national security purposes. A real life government would immediately expand that umbrella to include anything they didn't want you to see. Or rather not would, but is, as our government's assault on the FOIA shows.

Second, your neighbors aren't committing thoughtcrime. At least in their eyes. They are law-abiding citizens who would never smoke pot, sodomize another man, or speak out against the government. Now that they can prove to themselves that they are not ThoughtCriminals and you are, why exactly does it make less sense for them to persecute you for it?

It is [currently] hard to doctor realtime video and sound - especially when you don't know what is going to happen ahead of time.

But it isn't going to be real time when the footage is brought forward in a court of law, is it?

But that wasn't my point. I'm assuming that the people accused of ThoughtCrime really did commit it. The point was that you still cannot assume that you will know what the government is doing, because they will control the access to that information, and can produce whatever information they want.

Does it matter if the press releases a report indicating that the chocolate ration has increased, or if MiniTrue smudges the raw data coming out of the chocolate distributors to indicate that more chocolate is being produced and consumed?

The fact is that these heinous deviants are neither heinous nor very deviant. Facts that have only recently "come to light" as more of these folk have "come out of the closet." I think this case is in my favor, as a more transparent society has shown these laws to be rediculous pretenses for random prejudice.

Try telling that to a fundamentalist Christian. I seem to have missed when Jerry Falwell said "Oh, now that lots of homos are coming out of the closet, I realize that they aren't the godless affronts against nature I thought they were, and I'm cool with them now."

The change in the fortunes of homosexuals has nothing to do with a transparent society. It came from the same source as for minorities and women -- standing up and demanding their rights, and refusing to be silenced. Being able to peer into their lives had nothing to do with it. In fact, much like with blacks and women, standing up and making themselves known made their lives more difficult. Certainly early on and to a lesser extent even today, anyone who did "come out" was in physical danger. But I suppose the distinction between refusing to hide and allowing oneself to be spied upon is not one you'll see.

See; we do disagree. I think that a more transparent society has brought about the downfall of so

interesting...

[Spytap]

I'm not sure whether my first reaction is one of geek-interoperability heaven, or "1984"-style wariness. I guess my feelings are that for private citizens this could be a very cool idea, but for a general populace control/observance I'm a little worried.

Re:interesting...

[gl4ss]

are you?

well.

already it is _possible_ with gsm phones to track pretty precisely where the user(the phone is) is just by the info the gsm operator has.

so, indeed, goverments should be aware of this and regulate this information accordingly.

Re:interesting...

[tie_guy_matt]

Just because a CD burner can be used to pirate software doesn't mean CD burners should be illegal. CD burners have legitimate purposes too (like backing up data that does belong to you.) Likewise just because these tags can be used to track someone's every move without them knowing about it doesn't mean they should be illegal. These tags also have legitimate pruposes (like keeping track of the dog that keeps running away or the car that keeps getting stolen.)

Re:interesting...

[El_Ge_Ex]

I guess my feelings are that for private citizens this could be a very cool idea, but for a general populace control/observance I'm a little worried.

There are much larger concerns, like false sense of security. What happens when parents start believing that they no longer have to spend as much time around their kids because, "They always know where they are."

For me, this is a much larger concern, and much more likely to happen.

Common Sense would tell us these machines aren't necessary; that any activity in which this device is required would already have a guardian nearby or the child is old enough that it is not necessary, in that case the device is not needed anyways.

Overall rating: This is just another device that enables Parent's to reall f*ck up their kids while they have a 'clean' conscience when they're out banging the Secretary or Pool boy.

-B

where did I leave my keys?

[dirvish]

The tags will only cost about $25 and I am sure that price will go down w/ time. I would really like a nice small tag for my car keys...

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Joe Decker]

The takes are expected to cost $25 to produce, that doesn't mean they'll be sold for $25, probably more like $50. However, I agree with you that in time the price will drop, it always does.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[dki]

To clarify, the tags will cost $25 each to *produce*. I don't think the purchase price has been announced.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[garcia]

my ETrex Vista GPS unit will track things down to 3 ft or so. It typically does not work inside (in my apt. anyway) and even if it does, it's at like 40 to 60 ft.

GPS tracking for your keys wouldn't be terribly useful at that range.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Machine9]

however, it's perfectly functional for tracking you significant other's car keys, letting you know, in detail, where he/she/it goes.

this is a BAD thing for your privacy. even if, at first, only certain people (namely, you) have access to this information, it is only a matter of time before someone cracks the security (probably your CIA, FBI, NSA or other hotbed of conspiracy theories like this one) and starts tracking where YOU go.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[SamSpectre]

In the morning I need help finding my keys, my shoes, my work ID, etc. but I can't help but think I'll either lose the ID tags (before I apply them) or forget my password to the system when I need it most.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[swillden]

my ETrex Vista GPS unit will track things down to 3 ft or so.

I wish I'd had one of these things for tracking my eTrex Vista GPS unit, which I lost last week.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[garcia]

ok, I'll take the bait, ouch, hook...

I suppose that it is. It's also up to YOU to use the device. People are privacy concious are not going to use the system therefore you are fine.

Like any government agency is going to give a shit if M5 driving Joe Richblow is tagging his kids to make sure they get off the bus and make it to school.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[stienman]

I haven't read the whitepaper, but I imagine the services does now, or soon will, include cell tower positioning information as well. Between GPS (great in open areas serviced by few cell sites, lousy in urban jungles with reflections and bad line of sight) and cell tower (great in dense urban jungles where reflections and blocking are not so problematic due to lower frequencies and a greater number of towers, but lousy in open areas with maybe one or two towers in range) you can have coverage everywhere.

But the error is large enough that key finding won't be so easy, however my wife lost her keyring (probably on the freeway somewhere - left them in the trunk lock) and this would provide a good enough search area to reclaim most objects.

-Adam

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Machine9]

I am much more concerned about people placing these tags on/in your property -without- you knowing it.

I mean, it'd be ridiculously easy to stick one under a car with some duct tape for example.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Anonymous Coward]

and you think that such devices aren't available now?

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[imnoteddy]

Parent post:

The tags will only cost about $25 and I am sure that price will go down w/ time.

From the article:

The tags -- expected to cost less than $25 each to produce

$25 is the approximate cost to produce - they will no doubt cost more to buy.

It used to bother me that /. posters didn't RTFA but I'm starting to realize that even when they do read the articles many don't understand what they've read before they post.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[yuvtob]

if you need to know in which '2-mile raidus' your keys are, you should invest in medication.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[tnak]

Nah. I want one for the girlfriend's keys.

Not that I'm a pessimistic, untrustful person. :)

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[BigBir3d]

You are forgetting a few levels of markup. Made in Taiwan, sold to US importer at 20% margin. Importer sells to distributor for 15-25% margin _after_ paying for freight. Distributor sells to retailer for 20-40% margin. Retailer sells to us for 20-50% margin. You end up looking at $75-$85 cost to the consumer.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Joe Decker]

Could be, it depends on the device and the market, and I'm a few years out of date. I've worked for companies who sold products like that for very close to 2x cost-of-goods (COG at 45-55% of list retail). *shrug*

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[coopaq]

I would really like a nice small tag for my car keys...

In Soviet Russia your car keys would like a small tag for you!

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Bingo Foo]

In Soviet Russia, tired cliches become clever jokes!

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true. I've seen these things on Mission Impossible, and that was in the 1960s, so they date a very long time back.

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[coopaq]

In Soviet Russia, tired cliches become clever jokes!

In tired cliches, clever jokes become Soviet Russia!

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the situation and if the factory is willing to sell to the end user. Most of the time now, they are not willing to do so. It is just a pain in the butt.

Like you... *shrug*

Re:where did I leave my keys?

[Green Light]

Okay, I just have to do it:

In Soviet Union, car keys track YOU!

This has nothing to do with Apple.

[vasqzr]

If Paul Allen bought a wi-fi company would it be under Microsoft?

Re:This has nothing to do with Apple.

[alienhazard]

although that question is off topic, i think it is a valid one. Looks like whoever posted the story could use some help categorizing things :P go ahead, mod me off topic too, i dont care.

Re:This has nothing to do with Apple.

[jasonditz]

I got plenty of Karma to burn to, so I have to say I agree. But OTOH there were plenty of people calling the Corel acquisition by Vector an anti-competitive move by MS just because Paul Allen happens to invest some in Vector.

Re:This has nothing to do with Apple.

[spicyjeff]

Agreed. How does this fall into the category of Apple when the person in the article last worked there 20 years ago?

Re:This has nothing to do with Apple.

[anthony_dipierro]

If Paul Allen bought a wi-fi company would it be under Microsoft?

Sure, why not?

Re:This has nothing to do with Apple.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

when someone mentions RFIDs, everyone gets all up in arms about it, but when it's Steve Wozniak behind them (these things are basically an advanced form of RFIDs and can be used in much the same way), it's wahoo! go woz! you rock man!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[JZ_Tonka]

You're new here, aren't you.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[TwistedGreen]

Hate to break it to you, but Slashdot is not one homogenous entity.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremy Erwin]

RFID tags are applied by a retailer or manufacturer. The consumer has no choice in the matter, and may not be able to remove them. The WOZ tags, on the other hand, will presumably be bought by individuals who will be able to decide for themselves which items to track, and which to simply ignore.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[AntiOrganic]

You're also ignoring something here: We CONSENT to having these tags placed on something, and only what we want them placed on. No surprises here, and nothing's being tracked that we don't want tracked.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

If you bothered to read *any* of the posts above yours, you would see that *you* are the first to mention any type of praise for such a system (all the others are critical of this idea).

You have assumed, and assumed falsely.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[BWJones]

when someone mentions RFIDs, everyone gets all up in arms about it, but when it's Steve Wozniak behind them (these things are basically an advanced form of RFIDs and can be used in much the same way), it's wahoo! go woz! you rock man!

RFID's are a tool. As such they can be useful or they can be abused just like any other tool. (cars, pharmaceuticals, guns, databases etc...etc...etc...). What Woz has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives through their own choice as opposed to RFID technology being used without permission or knowledge.

You go Woz!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[plover]

What if that something is a 17-year-old daughter?

It's different if it's a dog, or your wallet, or your handgun. But what if it's a person who maybe doesn't want Mommy to know she drove to her boyfriend's house and has been parked at the local park for the last three hours instead of at the library with her study-buddies?

The lines get grayer.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[JZ_Tonka]

"will presumably be bought by individuals who will be able to decide for themselves which items to track, and which to simply ignore."

Presuably, yes, but what about when it's used to track, say, a filandering spouse or a truant son or daughter? I cann't imagine these people would voluntarily consent to be tracked like this.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Tumbleweed]

> Hate to break it to you, but Slashdot is not one homogenous entity.

Yes we are!

Oh, wait, I can't disagree with you if we're one homogenous entity.

Now I'm confused. Yes, _now_ I'm one with Slashdot! w00t! :)

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

but how long until retailers go to Woz wanting these? Even then, we'll still be "woz rocks!"

Hate to break it to you though, RFID tags are nothing to worry about. People at /. are just concerned about them because somebody was able to come up with an extreme example of poor usage of them, and listened without applying independent thought or reason. WalMart's program is only putting them in the boxes they're shipped in, not on the item that ends up at the shelf.

Even if they were, complaining about how it's no longer possible for a shoplifter to steal makes no sense and alienates the paranoia driven tin-hat wearers from the general public. If people are really concerned about educating the general public, better arguments are needed in terms they understand.

Somehow, we're supposed to be people understanding of technology and it's limits, yet the moment something that tracking millions of people comes up, it's bad, even though we're supposed to be the ones that know that just isn't possible.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

That's is correct.

Slashdot is a homoSEXUAL entity.

*bows*

Re:double standards at slashdot

[flynt]

What Woz has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives

I'm suggesting you not attend any meetings where MBA's are present for at least 1 month starting immediately. It is your only hope at this point! Please call me if you need any support through your ordeal.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[mark_lybarger]

i'm not so sure there's a grey line there unless this is of a state where 17 is considered legal age. parents are responsible for their kids up till the age they leave the house. they're responsible to feed them and responsible for when they run a car into someone's mailbox. i believe they have an intrinsic right and responsibility to monitor their kids whereabouts, even if they need to use such discrete methods as this.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right.

Crap. I can't believe I'm quoting Ani DiFranco.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[WIAKywbfatw]

RFID's are a tool. As such they can be useful or they can be abused just like any other tool. (cars, pharmaceuticals, guns, databases etc...etc...etc...). What Woz has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives through their own choice as opposed to RFID technology being used without permission or knowledge.

That's right, a tool. But how is crying about RFIDs when they're used by businesses to track inventory evil yet Woz (or anyone else in his area) using them to possibly track when residents have left their houses empty good?

Double standards or what.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[jabber01]

when someone mentions RFIDs, everyone gets all up in arms about it, but when it's Steve Wozniak behind them (these things are basically an advanced form of RFIDs and can be used in much the same way), it's wahoo! go woz! you rock man!

Steve Wozniak is a tool. As such he can be useful or he can be abused just like any other tool. (Gates, Ellison, Grove, Torvalds etc...etc...etc...). What RFDI has done is created a paradigm whereby individuals can harness the power of this technology to enable their lives through their own choice as opposed to Steve Wozniak technology being used without permission or knowledge.

You go RFID!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[BWJones]

That's right, a tool. But how is crying about RFIDs when they're used by businesses to track inventory evil yet Woz (or anyone else in his area) using them to possibly track when residents have left their houses empty good?

If the RFIDs are used exclusively within the business for order/manufacturing/inventory/etc... then there is nothing wrong with them. The problem occurs when businesses continue to use the RFID to track purchases by individual consumers. Privacy advocates are understandably upset over the possibility of businesses creating databases with say, your credit card info, personal info, products you purchase, frequency of purchase, etc..etc..etc.. As anyone who has ever worked in databases will tell you, databases (again, tools), just call out to be populated and linked with other databases. The problem here is that once the laws are created that enable this sort of tracking, it is very hard to put the Djinn back into the bottle.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[scottcha 4]

You don't want to know if your kids are driving the car you bought with insurance you pay for where they said they would?

Re:double standards at slashdot

[BWJones]

I'm suggesting you not attend any meetings where MBA's are present for at least 1 month starting immediately. It is your only hope at this point! Please call me if you need any support through your ordeal.

Someone mod this as funny. It's funny, laugh.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremy Erwin]

RFID tags are cheap. If Nike wants to embed a RFID in the sole of a sneaker (to aid in assembly line management), Walmart can use that tag to track where that item is within the store. Later on, some persons will discover that "John Smith bought Nike #3456271621-09552" is a salable piece of information. Now, whenever John Smith walks through a scanner, the owner of that scanner will be able to identify (with a certain degree of uncertainty) a previous anonymous persona with John Smith. The film "Minority Report" gives this business model a bad name.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[mickwd]

I can't imagine much that will make your children hate you more than treating older teenagers like this. Not to mention the amount of teasing and bullying by other kids you will be setting them up for.

Please, let any kids you ever have live some sort of decent childhood.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

RFID tags are applied by a retailer or manufacturer. The consumer has no choice in the matter, and may not be able to remove them.

Once the consumer has purchased the product they can do whatever they want with them.

The WOZ tags, on the other hand, will presumably be bought by individuals who will be able to decide for themselves which items to track, and which to simply ignore.

I don't see why you presume that.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

You're also ignoring something here: We CONSENT to having these tags placed on something, and only what we want them placed on. No surprises here, and nothing's being tracked that we don't want tracked.

I don't see how that's a difference. The owner of the store item consents to having the RFID tags placed on the item they buy. If the consumer doesn't want the RFID on the item he purchased, he can either take it off or buy a product without one in the first place. There is no removal of choice.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Nasarius]

"i'm not so sure there's a grey line there unless this is of a state where 17 is considered legal age." That would be most states (16 or 17), then. I know this shit because the first time I had sex with my girlfriend, I was 18 and she was 17. We're in New York, so it's perfectly legal.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Nasarius]

Oops, forgot the link:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

Re:double standards at slashdot

[jazman_777]

RFID's are a tool. As such they can be useful or they can be abused just like any other tool. (cars, pharmaceuticals, guns, databases etc...etc...etc...).

No! No! Some tools are _moral agents_, and are able, on their own, to be evil, or to influence people to do evil!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[yy1]

why does someone always complain about double standards and then get modded up?

Re:double standards at slashdot

[mark_lybarger]

i wasn't speaking to age of consentual sex. i realize that in most states it's 16 or 17 and up. parents are still responsible for their kids and if they tell their kids that they're not to be having sexual relations, they can charge the kids with being an unrully child.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Thud457]

And woe to you when, out of the goodness of your heart, you donate the shoes to Goodwill, where they're bought by the one-armed-man!!!! Let's see you explain your way outta THAT, Dr. Kimbell!!!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[wfberg]

RFID's are a tool

So are nuclear bombs.
Some tools are too powerful to allow them to become pervasive in society.

You even have to take a test to use a car, for Pete's sake! Some countries even outlaw handguns.. I heard rumors that certain seven year olds might not be allowed to bring foot long knives to school.. Regardless of whether they'd use them to just eat their lunch!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Qzukk]

Once the consumer has purchased the product they can do whatever they want with them.

Thats odd, I seem to be unable to remove the various types of tags that are in the books I buy without destroying the cover of the book (stuck to the inside of my paperbacks) or destroying the binding (hardbacks with the long metallic strip woven into the binding). I don't know if these really count as "RFID", and theoretically they are disabled when you buy them (since they don't set off the alarm when I leave the store). But if real RFID tags are anything like these, its entirely possible for them to be attached in such a way to make removal impossible without destroying or damaging the product.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremi]

Double standards or what.

Contrary to popular belief, there are multiple people with differing views posting to slashdot. Seeing these differing views expressed is NOT an indication of hypocrisy, it's an indication of diversity.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Age of consent is a seperate entity from being of legal age- which is in most cases 18. Being of legal age is exactly that- the age in which you, as an adult, have power of attorney over yourself. Until that time, you are under your parents control- and if they want to attach a locator to you, then that is there decision. Example- 16 is age of consent in most states for sex, however you have to be 18 or older in order to participate in porn. Why? Because at 18 you have power of attorney- you are your own person. Before that point, a parent or legal guardian would have to consent to such an act. If, for some reason, a parent did consent, it would be perfectly legal. It has happened a few times in hollywood where an actress has been underage but the scene has called for nudity. If the parents say yes, then all is good.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Theaetetus]

"RFID's are a tool"

So are nuclear bombs. Some tools are too powerful to allow them to become pervasive in society.

More specifically, nuclear power is the tool, and has both positive uses (eletricity generation, radiology, etc.) and negative uses (nuclear bombs). Nuclear power itself, though, is neutral.

-T

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

RFID's are a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or, uh... or an alligator. You just need more education on the subject

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

Thats odd, I seem to be unable to remove the various types of tags that are in the books I buy without destroying the cover of the book (stuck to the inside of my paperbacks) or destroying the binding (hardbacks with the long metallic strip woven into the binding).

With enough money you could certainly do it. I never said the manufacturer makes it easy, but it is possible, and you of course have the choice to buy or not buy that product anyway.

I don't know if these really count as "RFID", and theoretically they are disabled when you buy them (since they don't set off the alarm when I leave the store). But if real RFID tags are anything like these, its entirely possible for them to be attached in such a way to make removal impossible without destroying or damaging the product.

And this is entirely possible for WozNet devices as well.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it funny? I dont get it.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Suidae]

As a parent of small children, I plan on addressing this by equipping them with cell phones with GPS receivers and requiring that they answer that phone any time it rings, and that I can receive their GPS coords at any time. In return they will be allowed to go where they want, when they want (within alloweable hours regarding curfews and school, etc), and I won't badger them about what they were doing. All the better if the phone supports some kind of clandestined 'are you there' signal that would not be easily fooled in the case of abduction or other seperation of the phone from the correct person.

I would have taken this deal myself, gladly. I'm not so much worried about them doing stupid stuff (I did, and I've still got all my limbs and most of my brain cells) as I am about them doing something stupid, getting hurt or stranded, and not having an option for rescue.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

That was pretty good, right up until the "kimbell."

Re:double standards at slashdot

[wfberg]

>>So are nuclear bombs. Some tools are too powerful
>>to allow them to become pervasive in society.

>More specifically, nuclear power is the tool, and
>has both positive uses (eletricity generation,
>radiology, etc.) and negative uses (nuclear bombs).
>Nuclear power itself, though, is neutral.

No. A bomb is a tool. Which can be used for excavating for example. Or clearing away debris. Or demolishing buildings in an orderly fashion. Nuclear power is a concept.

A hammer is a tool. It's an instrument. "Hammering" is not a tool. "Gravity" is not a tool. Here's the clue; tools are objects. Physical processes and laws of nature are not.
We've been using nuclear power for ages; the sun runs off of it. That doesn't make it a tool.

An X-ray machine is a tool. And we only let doctors and some border security people use those, however beneficial an application it might seem.

Sorry to be pedantic, but you were kinda talking out of your ass.. :-p

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Fear the Clam]

But geeks who actually go to the library can have a sweet little side business holding tracker buttons for the popular kids.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Lord Ender]

Yeah, we have no choice about RFID tags! Next thing you know, those privacy-destroying stores will be printing BARCODES on EVERYTHING! And the government will be assigning each citizen a distinct number so they can use their DATABASES on us!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[WIAKywbfatw]

Yes, I appreciate that but the poster to whom I was replying made it clear that RFIDs can be abused but completely missed (or ignored) the fact that the potential for abuse exists in Woz's local network.

It is double standards (or perhaps just naive) to suggest that RFIDs can be abused but yet applaud Woz's efforts - "You go Woz!", as the original poster put it - without reservation all in the same breath.

I'm sorry, but that sure sounds like hypocrisy to me. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are that it's a duck.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Jeremy Erwin]

You can't read a barcode except at very close range. RFIDs have a range of 3--5m (best case).
Legally, SSNs aren't supposed to be used as sorting keys, and if you press hard enough, it's not required.

But yes, basically, "The Mark of the Beast" (tm), is upon us.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Darby]

As a parent of small children, I plan on addressing this by equipping them with cell phones with GPS receivers and requiring that they answer that phone any time it rings,

I have no children, but I would suggest that you modify this a bit, at least.

If you put the fear of Suidae into them that they always have to answer then they'll pick up when their drunk ass {boy|girl}friend calls back after they [you going, "Yes!"] told them never to call again.
Unless you work in some really secretive industry or some such you'll probably always call from home, work, or your cell. If you have to call from a friend's place with a blocked number, then you can probably unblock it.
So "require" that they answer all of *your* calls.

The rest of your post is definitely interesting.
The boundary between privacy and safety must be
chaotic (think Mandelbrot) when it's you and your kids versus society as a whole.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[that _evil _gleek]

Probably, because people feel like they know Woz, and that he can be trusted, he's the kinda of guy who'd fix any problems, and not cover them up.

A big issue with something like this is if the info is insecure, it could make the "creep"'s job easier... knowing exactly where the kid is, and what their daily patterns are would make it easier to snatch them up.. Very good network security, and ESP, they need to do serious background checks on their employees... You know how they have all those cameras in London, advocates of "cameras everywhere" always attack their opponents by insuating that they must be criminals since they don't trust the police, but the thing is it won't be the police, they'll contract that out, because we don't have enough police to go around as it is.. at least that's what they did in London, and then it turned out that one of the guys behind the camera used it to better stalk and attack women...

That's what scares me, because in the U.S I'd think they'd just cover that up, they wouldn't want the bad publicity for this new multimillion dollar project because someone's banking their polictical future on it, so nothing would be fixed, they wouldn't improve screening, because fixing something, improving something, would be admitting that there was a problem... and that is strictly forbidden... So back to WOZ, and tags, I guess it because we believe thats he's sincere, and would really do, whatever it takes to fix a problem... he wouldn't let an ego/image problem be an excuse for inaction. So bottom line, Woz seems like a sincere human being, and everyone else toting this stuff seem like sincere phonies-- any questions?

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

As a parent of small children, I plan on addressing this by equipping them with cell phones with GPS receivers and requiring that they answer that phone any time it rings, and that I can receive their GPS coords at any time.

I'd just turn off the phone, and tell you that I was out of the service area.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[clare-ents]

How do you tell if a trainer has an RFID embedded in the sole? It's not like you can see it.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[plumby]

You even have to take a test to use a car, for Pete's sake!

What is your point?

The reason that you have to take a test to use a car is not because it has good and bad uses, it's because it is difficult to control and therefore much more dangerous in untrained hands. The test doesn't stop people who want to use them for "bad" things. I don't think that someone accidentally misusing RFIDs is likely to mow down innocent bystanders.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[Suidae]

I'd just turn off the phone, and tell you that I was out of the service area./I

I don't take excuses. You'd be grounded for not answering the phone.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

You could ask the store.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[anthony_dipierro]

I hope your kid runs away and joins the circus. Actually, I hope, and suspect, that you're trolling. HAND.

Re:double standards at slashdot

[gryphokk]

RFID's are a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or, uh... or an alligator.

I'm really curious to hear how you or anyone might have used an alligator as a tool!?!

Re:double standards at slashdot

[plover]

As parents of a fifteen year old son, my wife and I have found the best mechanism for addressing all of this are the same mechanisms our parents used: raise him well enough that we can trust him, and smart enough to avoid problems. Sure, I expect he's going to do something very stupid before he's 18 (or he won't do enough growing up,) but our hope is that the damage won't be permanent. So far, we've been very pleased with the results. He's a great kid, very responsible, very smart, and not a social leper (but definitely a geek-in-training.)

We gave him a cell-phone for his 15th birthday, but haven't placed any "you must answer under penalty of X" restrictions on him. It's mostly so he can call us if he feels like he's in trouble or in over his head. The only real use we've gotten out of it so far is that he can call us to give him a ride after the movie's over.

I personally think the promise of child-tracking devices are highly overrated; sales are driven by FUD news stories of "molesters" and "kidnappers". It's way better to keep an eye on your kids when they're little, and raise children you can trust when they're older.

Just peachy

[sulli]

So the guy who helped bring us The Personal Computer is now making spy tools for meddling parents and divorce lawyers? Thanks a lot, bucko!

Re:Just peachy

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just stop cheating on your wife, and you wouldn't have a problem.

Not a bad thing

[Raindance]

So, I was a little distressed that Woz, the archetype of the computer good guy, invented a way to track things- shadows of the 'digital angel' system, et cetera.

But this is local tracking, not global tracking, and that makes all the difference. It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking; it just helps you keep track of your own stuff.

Very cool Woz.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Troed]

This is a very bad thing. Kids _should_ be able to "sneak out" - it's part of growing up.

Overprotective parenting is extremely dangerous for a healthy upbringing.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Lord_Dweomer]

"But this is local tracking, not global tracking, and that makes all the difference. It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking; it just helps you keep track of your own stuff."

But if you think about it...(and granted I didn't RTFA) how hard would it really be connect all these 'local' tracking stations to a big database, and cross-correlate all of them?

Re:Not a bad thing

[kasparov]

Over-protective parents can lead to smarter kids. I should know, I had to learn to be *extra* sneaky with my parents. ;-)

Kids will always find ways to outsmart their parents. It's called progress!

Re:Not a bad thing

[superdan2k]

...It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking...

Sure it does...if you missed it, some of the coverage mentioned that multiple base stations can be linked together to provide a "neighborhood watch" function, which is pretty cool. From the sound of it, there's not much to stop you from linking up base stations on a nationwide network...the trick there, of course, is knowing which items you're looking for. Something like this would be great for tracking stolen bicycles, for example. A WozNet tag in the down tube makes it impossible to fuck with, short of cutting apart the frame, thereby ruining it.

You could do some other really cool shit, like keeping track of where bike racers are on a course at any given moment -- which would make more sense to Joe Average than telling him that Lance Armstrong (Vive Le Lance!) has a 35 second lead over Jan Ullrich.

Everyone gets all worried about Big Brother, of course, but Jesus Christ, do you think that the U.S. Government really gives a fuck about where your Trek Madone 5.9 or your limited edition X-Men #500 with the supermegaholographic RealPlatinum(TM) has run off to? Of course not.

If you want your Libertarian minimal-government-involvment society (as many Slashdot posters/readers seem to), you need to have a system in place to police yourself and your belongings. WozNet is one of those.

Re:Not a bad thing

[precogpunk]

I can see it now: kids will give their ID tags to friends to take to school while they play hooky, dogs will have to gnaw them off before jumping the fence and instead of looking out the window to see if your car is in the driveway you'll look at your computer screen.

Re:Not a bad thing

[insanecarbonbasedlif]

But this is local tracking, not global tracking, and that makes all the difference. It doesn't lend itself to big databases, cross-correlation, et cetera, and all the big evil things which are made possible with global tracking; it just helps you keep track of your own stuff.

From the wOz site:

wOzNet also enables the wOzNet Community(TM) network that can transparently mobilize an entire community to help locate a person, pet or thing that's not where it should be. Businesses participating in wOzNet Community can provide an important public service to the community at no additional cost. And wOzNet grows organically so a community can be as large as the nation or even the world.

[emphasis mine]
So it actually *is* global tracking. Make of it what you will.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

A WozNet tag in the down tube

...won't work, because it'll be surrounded by steel.

Re:Not a bad thing

[cybercuzco]

do you think that the U.S. Government really gives a fuck about where your Trek Madone 5.9 or your limited edition X-Men #500 with the supermegaholographic RealPlatinum(TM) has run off to? Of course not.

Of course not, unless youre a communist, or a terrorist, or an Enemy Combatant (tm) or an atheist, or a democrat. Other than that, you dont have to worry about the govt tracking you at all.

Re:Not a bad thing

[LWATCDR]

"If you want your Libertarian minimal-government-involvment society (as many Slashdot posters/readers seem to)"

No I don't. People can not even be trusted in Sims on line not to be jerks. I like laws. We just have to find the right balance.

Re:Not a bad thing

[superdan2k]

I said most, not all. And after using IRC extensively in the mid-90's, I'm convinced that a minimal-law system of government will never fucking work. :-)

Re:Not a bad thing

[Scottm87]

The thing that scares me about it is that all of the data will be communicated over the internet. Hacking over the internet is much easier than hacking some device with no network connection. There better be some good encryption!

Re:Not a bad thing

[mezron]

"Woz, the archetype of the computer good guy," Heh... you know Woz used to sell a device that was used to make illegal long distance phone calls. a few links

Re:Not a bad thing

[jazman_777]

Overprotective parenting is extremely dangerous for a healthy upbringing.

Prove it. You can't use yourself as an example, maybe you were born warped.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot anarchist and drug user.

Re:Not a bad thing

[addaon]

I need an excuse to upgrade to carbon...

Re:Not a bad thing

[timmfisk]

Excuse me... are you so nieve to think that Woz or any other person, company or government would not want to use it for personal gain, or that it's design is not completely explained?

Our privacy is being tested by technology like this.

Sure, its sounds like a great convenience, but what happens when it becomes a "social standard"? It amazes me how people are so willing to give up their rights in the name of technology or economic growth.

Re:Not a bad thing

[linzeal]

If these are the size of a dongle or fob why don't they just take them off if they want to sneak out? It is not like they are an implant, yet.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Just global? Well, I've lost interest in this then!!!

Re:Not a bad thing

[Qzukk]

do you think that the U.S. Government really gives a fuck about where your Trek Madone 5.9 or your limited edition X-Men #500 with the supermegaholographic RealPlatinum(TM) has run off to?

No, of course the US Government doesn't give a fuck. But, see, you cut Agent Joe's secretary off in traffic on the way to work this morning, and by the time you've left work, not only are you a wanted terrorist and pedophile, the FBI has already seized your X-Men #500.

Re:Not a bad thing

[Jeremi]

So, I was a little distressed that Woz, the archetype of the computer good guy, invented a way to track things- shadows of the 'digital angel' system, et cetera.

I was distressed that Woz, the archetypical computer good guy, drives a Hummer, the archetypical symbol of everything that is wrong with American consumerism. (I can't wait for the "Hummer SR-71 edition", which will deliberately leak fuel onto the pavement while driving at low speeds, to facilitate faster acceleration)

Re:Not a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want your Libertarian minimal-government-involvment society (as many Slashdot posters/readers seem to), you need to have a system in place to police yourself and your belongings. WozNet is one of those.

I have another one. It's a .45. Very effective theft deterrent, and if it doesn't deter them, it can dispatch them with ease.

--
Guns don't kill people. Blunt force trauma does.

Re:Not a bad thing

[rthille]

Something like this would be great for tracking stolen bicycles, for example. A WozNet tag in the down tube makes it impossible to fuck with, short of cutting apart the frame, thereby ruining it.

Yeah, except for the whole 'gps signals don't go through steel the thickness of a bicycle down tube thing'. Not to mention that the frame is probably the least of the reasons why your bike got stolen.

Re:Not a bad thing

[WNight]

Time on IRC has convinced me that people don't want laws to solve problems (Murder a problem? Pass a law against it, or find a technical solution) but to allow themselves to have power over others.

There are IRC variants where /ignore works at the server level, and where flooding has pretty much been solved. People still whine about ops more than they talk. It's all a power trip. Ops was invented basically to let someone keep order. Once order is being kept, ops aren't required. Yet go into a channel and 60% of people are opped, and the other 40% are sucking up to them.

I think most laws that people want are to allow them to stick their nose into other people's business, not to stop an actual problem.

However, I know people aren't grown up enough to handle themselves without laws. Anywhere you've got a commons, you've got spoilers who are willing to destroy it rather than share, even if their only contribution was in fencing it off.

Maybe we need to investigate a monarchy. We'll use genetic engineering to breed a super-intelligent being and let them rule. :) And hey, if it fails, we've got a cool super-beings-run-amok situation that'll be foder for b-movies for hundreds of years!

Re:Not a bad thing

[Hackie_Chan]

Jesus Christ, do you think that the U.S. Government really gives a fuck about where your Trek Madone 5.9 or your limited edition X-Men #500 with the supermegaholographic RealPlatinum(TM) has run off to?

Possible if you happened to wear a turban...

Re:Not a bad thing

[Suidae]

Ops is desired by many not necessarily because its power over others, but because it is status. Look at the Karma system. High karma doesn't really give you control over other people, and yet people try to gain as much as possible.

In an IRC channel, the most obvious flag of status is +o. If there was a Karma-like rating system that was unlinked from ops and very visible, people would strive to achieve high ratings there too.

I think its kind of a video-game culture thing. There are a lot of people who want their publicly displayed scores to be better than everybody elses, so they will identify the things that look like scores and seek to improve them.

Re:Not a bad thing

[freeweed]

Over-protective parents can also lead to kids who never learn how to do anything on their own, because they've never been allowed to.

Over-protective parents can also lead to kids using drugs, participating in drive-by shootings, winning the school talent show, and becoming president of the United States.

can != will

Re:Not a bad thing

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"Yes both God and Evolution are true, deal with it."

How should I deal with this? First I need to know *which* god don't I?
Naw, easier just to ignore the whole lot of them.

I mean, whether or not evolution is true has zero impact on my personal life and neither does the deity of your choice.

Re:Not a bad thing

[carambola5]

Kids will always find ways to outsmart their parents. It's called progress!

First of all, we are forgetting the rule that kids are always smarter than their parents when it comes to computers. Always. Next, enter the fact that kids could construct their own nets and attach a tag somewhere underneath their parents' cars.

Can you say "proximity alert"? Works a helluva lot better with a range of 1 or 2 miles compared to hearing the garage door open.

Re:Not a bad thing

[DNS-and-BIND]

You know that Lance Armstrong endorses SUVs, right?

Re:Not a bad thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Over-protective parents can lead to smarter kids.

Your personal myth?

Re:Not a bad thing

[LWATCDR]

Being that God is all knowing God would know better than to eat a microwave burrito :) He would create a home made burrito :)

Re:Not a bad thing

[Asprin]

Stores and organizations are already starting to ban cell phones with integrated cameras because of public safety, privacy and crime probems that are cropping up. I think this is a bad idea, even **if** it's local only.


Just as one example, suppose I want to burglarize your house. I can glue one of these to your car and before you leave and I've got something like five minutes warning when you're coming back into the area.

I, too, am very bothered that it is actually Woz who is planning to sell these.

Re:Not a bad thing

[huginOGmunin]

If you breed a super-intelligent being, you won't LET it do anything.

It will do what it wants to.

Didn't you see Colossus: The Forbin Project?

yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school

Yeah, it's a good thing kids don't have those pesky "rights" granted to other americans. God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in woz's brave new world...

Re:yay, tracking!

[keesh]

Those kids know how to use tinfoil, right?

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

They know to put it on their heads!

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's a good thing kids don't have those pesky "rights" granted to other americans. God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in woz's brave new world..

Yeah, like the right to bear arms (oops, not old enough), and the right to vote (oops, not old enough)and the pursuit of happiness (oops, not old enough for porno, to drink, to smoke, to drive, etc, etc, etc).

Which America do you live in?

Re:yay, tracking!

[dcg]

I would guess that you don't have kids.

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Minors indeed don't have the same rights as adults. Kids are not allowed to vote. They cannot enter into legally binding contracts. They cannot buy cigarettes and alcohol. Why should they have complete freedom of movement?

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Principal,

Please stop taking attendance, it violates my right to something according to geeks at slashdot. I think it's anonymity, or privacy, or well something from that constitution thing. I know neither of those are in there, but its something.

Anyways, like, my parents have no right to know where I am during the day. And by taking attendance, you are just being Big Brother and spying on us and its Orwellian. At least thats what they say on slashdot.

Re:yay, tracking!

[swillden]

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

And children are not qualified to judge where this line is. Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

Re:yay, tracking!

[stienman]

Yeah, because if my fictitious nine year old decides to have a nike symbol tattooed on his forehead for cool clothes without my permission, then he should be able to do that.

I mean, come on. We can certianly trust children to make life altering and sometimes threatening decisions without our involvement.

Parents have a hard enough time keeping their children alive and well until they are past puberty (the age of bad decisions) and a little into their more stable years without adding jibes about how kids today are not much more than slaves.

I'm not saying I'd use Woz's service - I don't know, my children aren't old enough to be on their own. But you shouldn't dismiss it because it does have some potentially bad abuses.

Of course, you might have a double standard there. Perhaps you think it's ok to have file sharing even though it can be used in the commision of crimes, but not an object tracking service because it could be used in the commision of crimes?

I could understand your consternation if this tool only had bad uses, or was designed primarily for 'bad' purposes (ie, the handgun is a weapon whose primary design and use is killing or disabling human beings, but it does have other purposes, such as target practise so you can become better at killing humans instead of just disabling them - but it can be used in both offense and defense) but you can't claim that the service is a bad thing and will bring about Aldus Huxley's futurific version of reality.

We are a tool using species. Don't bemoan the tool, bemoan the uses.

-Adam

Re:yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

I would guess that you don't have kids.

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.

I would guess you don't know many other parents.

What you mentioned is all fine and good, and perhaps it would be nice to see your kids make it to school all safe and sound from your pc, but don't make the mistake that all parents are as altruistic as you may be. I imagine a great deal of parents will use these as house-arrest devices, tracking every movement of thier kids all the way through 18 years of age. I've met plenty of people who would, so don't tell me that's bullshit. Remember, "Parents responsibilities to ensure safety" are defined by the parents, and there are plenty of morons/assholes out there who will use these devices to some pretty sick ends. I've met some strange people who grew up under very repressive households; I could only imagine how much grief these devices would have added.

Re:yay, tracking!

[HarveyBirdman]

God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in woz's brave new world...

OK. We can bring back the "good old days" and you can relive your childhood working in a coal mine. :-)

Re:yay, tracking!

[Cplus]

Why should they have complete freedom of movement?

You're right, we should tie them in closets like veal.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes the reason children don't arrive at school on time is more sinister than the child playing hooky. Since children are legally required to go to school (of some sort), what's the big deal?

(I'd rather have the right to go where I wanted than the right not to be tracked)

Re:yay, tracking!

[scottcha 4]

That's mature...take it completely to the other extreme. Make sure your mind is closed completely to the middle ground.

Re:yay, tracking!

[stienman]

Yeah, I know about the whole "replaying to my own post thing".

Anyway, I wanted to alert those whose hackles I raised by bring up gun issues. I tried to think of something which I consider a far more pressing concern than privacy - physicaly security - for use as an analogy.

Quite frankly, one must be feeling pretty physically secure to give such attention to privacy issues.

But turning my attention directly to the gun issue - no, the bracelet is not comparable to the gun because the gun doesn't track you remotely, though it does leave its marks and indicates its presence and it can be traced to a degree.

The primary objective was to say that even a device which was designed and is primarily purchased for today as a human killing weapon has a good side (defense) and a bad side (offense) There's no way to design a gun which has only the good use.

Likewise it's almost impossible today to develop any technology or device which has no evil purpose or use. You can't even design a comic character without someone somewhere twisting it into subversion in their own medium.

Who are we to decide what tools are worth developing and what tools are not? Who are we to deny others the use of this technology - which could be used to track alzheimer's patients so they can stay at home - comfortable and happier - rather than a 24-hour monitored, locked, sterile (and expensive) institution?

If you had the ability to go back in time and prevent the development of nuclear weapons and energy, would you? What would the outcome be?

Furthermore, it's little use preventing the use of this technology until its full potential is known - you can't know the full potential of something - it can be infinite. You can only get a glimpse of it by putting it out there, and seeing what people make of it. Who knew, when gunpowder was invented, that it would pave the way for space exploration?

-Adam

Re:yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

Of course, you might have a double standard there. Perhaps you think it's ok to have file sharing even though it can be used in the commision of crimes, but not an object tracking service because it could be used in the commision of crimes?

No, please don't make assumptions about my beliefs. In fact, I do believe in the right to create file sharing software. In fact, I do believe in the right to making tracking devices. I also believe that there is a difference between rights and responsibilities. I don't think laws should dictate morals, but it's certainly ok to talk about them :). This belief is actually integral to why I think not manufacturing these tracking devices, and a (albeit limited) teenager's right to privacy is very important.

First of all, the people making napster and many other file-swapping systems are doing so to enable people to trade copyrighted material. I don't think that's a very moral action, but I also don't care that much, because really I think copyrights are somewhat wacky and novel law.

Secondly, you have to learn morals somewhere. If you have a system set up around you while you're a kid, preventing you from doing anything deemed as "wrong", how can you possibly develop as a person capable of moral choice? When people see a system in front of them which prescribes morals, they figure anything is ok as long as you can work it into the system. The opposite is also true: When given responsibility, people often try to live up to it. My analysis prof would hand us our exams and let us complete them wherever we wanted under the promise of not talking to anyone, or looking at a book or notes, and bringing it to him on time. No one dared cheat on those exams. There is an age, which is NOT 18, at which kids need to start having responsibility. It's not right, and certainly not fair, to dump it all on them when they turn 18.

Many parents do not understand this concept, but by virtue of the fact that they do not have the technology to control their kids, their kids will get a chance to experience being on their own, having a little privacy, and perhaps starting the transition into an adult.

I agree that this device could have some good uses, especially for young children, but if I was woz I'd really think the bad outweighs the good and make the decision not to develop it. Again, I don't think it should be illegal, but I think the responsible choice would be not to manufacture it. That's my opinion, and I'm not a parent so it's probably skewed. But really, I can assure you of disaster for many many kids once these devices are available. I had a friend who was never allowed to leave her apartment except for school or certain verified activities (which didn't come very often). Luckily she was able to sneak out pretty often, and I know there are parents much worse than that. Could you imagine living your entire childhood stuck inside a 3-room apartment? I wouldn't like the idea of enabling such a scenario.

I know you realize that I posted because of possible abuses of this tool, and not because I "saw this as an oppressive tool which removes kids rights to skip school" or something idiotic like that which many other posters seem to believe I thought. I'm responding to you because I don't have the patience to respond to everyone else, and your response was actually insightful.

Re:yay, tracking!

[switcha]

Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

...or is still one of the children in question. I would love to keep some of these comments in this thread and let the writers read them in 15 years when their 8 year old daughter is walking to school through their neighborhood containing ??? sex offenders (remember how y'all objected to the 2009 criminal notification proposal due to it's implemetation of rfid tags?).

Re:yay, tracking!

[addaon]

On the other hand, anyone who thinks that parents should know everything, free of charge (where the charge, currently, is having to interact with the child) has never been a kid.

Re:yay, tracking!

[RalphBNumbers]

And children are not qualified to judge where this line is.

Are parrents qualified to judge where the line is? Is their overprotectiveness any less irrational and hormone driven than a child's adventurousness?

Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

...And anyone who thinks that children's rights should exist only at the discretion of their parent is not a child.
Of course neither of these generalizations are entirely true, but their dichotomy is meant to illustrate a point.

Re:yay, tracking!

[jazman_777]

You're right, we should tie them in closets like veal.

Logical fallacy: straw man.

Re:yay, tracking!

[NoodleSlayer]

There's been child tracking devices for a while now, they're called Cell Phones (aka Yuppie Leashes), and most teens want them too.

Re:yay, tracking!

[sean23007]

Imagine that you look on your screen and see that your 9 year old son is somewhere on Main St. Well, that can only mean one thing, right? He must be getting a tattoo on his face! Jump in the SUV to abduct him immediately!

If you trust your children this little, it doesn't matter if you know their precise location, you're not going to be happy.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Tokerat]

If I was a teenager, I would just leave the jacket with the RFID tag in my locker and then ditch school.

If i was an elementary or middle-school level child, I would be glad to have the tag on. A girl in my middle school class was almost kidnapped by a guy who had kidnapped and killed at least 3 other children in the NY/MA area over the previous few years. Luckly she escaped and the man was caught and convicted, but I have to wonder how many of those could have been prevented has the police had a GPS tracking tag to follow...

Re:yay, tracking!

[srussell]

Any adult who believes that children won't find a way to circumvent these technologies faster than you can say "Wozniac" is deluding themselves. I don't know about the rest of you, but in high-school, my friends and I spent amazing amounts of time finding work-arounds for adult-imposed restrictions.

Pause a moment, and reflect. I'm not saying that this is a good thing; children certainly need privacy, too. Children don't have the same rights as adults, and often for very good reasons. The problem is that most people, IMHO, can't balance their checkbooks let alone raise a child reasonably well.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had parents just like this. The only freedom I had (until I moved out at 19) revolved around those few unsupervised hours a day before and after supervised events (mainly going to school)

The poster is DEAD ON about how this will be abused

Some people become adults only despite the efforts of their parents to keep them dependent. This technology will only make it harder.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, you might have a double standard there.

Well, I wouldn't call it a double standard, more like they love committing crimes and hate things that can help the cops catch them.

Re:yay, tracking!

[OneEyedApe]

George Orwell wrote 1984, a "dark utopian" novel, where the oppressed citizens of the fictional world were kept under constant surveillance.

Aldus Huxley wrote Brave New World, a novel which considered a future in which rampant commercialism, addiction to the drug SOMA, and a bio-engineered caste system controlled the population.

RFID tags would be more in line with Orwell's vision, not Huxley's

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's a good thing kids don't have those pesky "rights" granted to other americans. God, I'm glad I didn't grow up in woz's brave new world...

How does one acquire the right to skip school? I mean....what the fuck are you thinking? Kids don't have the reasoning capacity or the maturity to know why they should follow laws (many adults don't either, but they should and that's why they get punished as adults, because they should know better) and so they have fewer rights than adults. Babies can't vote, and toddlers can't buy alcohol. Geez, what a stupid system that is.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course neither of these generalizations are entirely true, but their dichotomy is meant to illustrate a point.

Which one, the one on your head? Children don't have *THE SAME* rights as adults. No one is saying that children have *no* rights. They have limited 'rights' because parents are responsible for the actions of their children. Therefore, parents can dictate where their children go, who they see, and what they do to any extent they wish, providing they comply with all local/federal laws. However, children have the 'right' to not be killed or tortured and the parents have the RESPONSIBILITY to take care of their children. You don't get 'rights' without responsibilities because what we call 'rights' are really privileges. The only 'right' we have that cannot be taken away is the pursuit of happiness. Note it does not say the *attaining* of happiness, only the pursuit. Life and liberty can be taken easily. When you have privileges, you have corresponding responsibilities, as any good parent will tell you.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, we should tie them in closets like veal.

You know a better way to get that juicy, tender child flesh taste?

Re:yay, tracking!

[Qzukk]

Of course, you might have a double standard there. Perhaps you think it's ok to have file sharing even though it can be used in the commision of crimes, but not an object tracking service because it could be used in the commision of crimes?

The issue in my mind isn't about whether the most common usage is legal or not, its about whether the intended use is reasonably secure.

Bit-torrent's stated purpose is distribution of software. I can torrent various ISOs of Linux if I choose to. Or I can break the law and torrent The Matrix. However, the software is reasonably secure and I can be fairly certain that nobody will break into my computer because I'm using it, that I won't accidentially be arrested for using it to get The Matrix when I was actually downloading Linux, or other "misfires".

Personally, I'd love to be able to track my kids like this (and personally I believe I can do so in a responsible way without turning into nazi-parent-from-hell). I'd love to be able to track my car keys so I can find them. I'd love to know where my car went when it disappears from the parking lot.

I'd hate for some guy walking by with a little receiver to know that I've left my keys in the car. I'd hate to have a broken sensor "detect" my car in an intersection during a red light because the sensor was off a dozen feet. I'd hate to have someone know that my kid was walking home alone.

So how about this: we send Woz back to the drawing board, and this time he comes up with tags that don't continuously broadcast their location. Broadcast the shortest possible response (to reduce the risk of someone accidentially "overhearing" it and the time abusers have to triangulate the signal source) in response to a cryptographically signed request which includes the frequency to respond on. Allow users to generate this key themselves (People who feel that their "chipped" auto key makes their car somehow more secure annoy me, when the chips are easy to come by and master keys exist for various towing and repair companies and have been stolen and used to steal cars in the past).

So, yeah. Don't bemoan the tool. Unless the tool sucks and could have been made better with a little more thought.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because a kidnapper wouldn't dare remove the tag, now would he? They are scumbags, not dumbasses (well, there are a few exceptions...).

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think laws should dictate morals.

Uhh...exactly what is it that you think laws do? If I try to tell a judge that murder isn't against my morals and isn't a moral crime, will they just let me go? All laws DO is dictate morals. They just dictate what we, as a society, have proclaimed to be our collective morals. Do you really think that the murder rate wouldn't rise if we decriminalized it? That the theft rate wouldn't rise if it was declared legal? (of course, those of us who are well trained in the use and care of guns wouldn't have to worry as much)

Also, you people apparently never had a parent that would drop you off at school. That's MUCH harder to fool than a fucking tracking device. (at least it was at my school, once you were in, you were watched and couldn't easily leave)
I REALLY would have preferred some tracking tag, as I could have sent that to school with a goody-goody friend instead of having my mom make DAMN sure I went in. (until high school, luckily I avoided the horrible fate of having my mom drive me to school in HS)

Re:yay, tracking!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's been child tracking devices for a while now, they're called Cell Phones (aka Yuppie Leashes), and most teens want them too.

Yeah, it's impossible to misrepresent where you are on a cellular phone. Don't give me any camera-phone bullshit either. Those cameras are extremely crappy, not to mention that if you have the money to make your kids send you pictures every 5 minutes, you could just hire a driver and have him drive them around all day.

Re:yay, tracking!

[feed_me_cereal]

Uhh...exactly what is it that you think laws do?

Keep people safe. That's all they should do. Laws are here to keep society from collapsing, not to tell us what's a good idea and whats a bad idea. At least, thats what I would see as the ideal, and most "american" use of law.

All laws DO is dictate morals.

Dictating morals and keeping people safe are not mutually exclusive, but laws should be here for the second purpose, and not the first alone. A law only dictating morals would be something like the sodomy laws. That's why those laws are bullshit, IMHO.

Re:yay, tracking!

[tgibbs]

I imagine a great deal of parents will use these as house-arrest devices, tracking every movement of thier kids all the way through 18 years of age.

How insidious. This will have a terrible impact upon the personal freedom of teenagers who are too stupid to leave the thing behind when going somewhere they don't want their parents to know about.

Re:yay, tracking!

[caudron]

Children are the responsibility of adults, whether they like to think so or not. If they commit an act of vandalism, for instance, it's the parents/gaurdians who pay. It is only the state that must assume children's rights (mostly due to the US Supreme Court via the Tinker decision, which thankfully has since gotten some reasonable limits placed on it). Parents maintain the right to restrict children's movements, speech, and general freedom with fairly loose limits.

Now if only we had more parents who did that responsibily and intelligently. :-(

-Tom

Re:yay, tracking!

[MrScience]

All the kid has to do is sneak out of the house naked. Unless the parents have implanted them with a Woz tracker...

Re:yay, tracking!

[Chester K]

What you mentioned is all fine and good, and perhaps it would be nice to see your kids make it to school all safe and sound from your pc, but don't make the mistake that all parents are as altruistic as you may be. I imagine a great deal of parents will use these as house-arrest devices, tracking every movement of thier kids all the way through 18 years of age.

Hating the technology because of what people could do with it is the exact same reasoning that led to the creation of the DMCA and its attempts to ban anything that could possibly be used in a copyright violation (like Sharpie pens).

The people that misuse the technology are the problem, not the technology itself, which has perfectly legit, acceptable uses.

Re:yay, tracking!

[prockcore]

Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

Nice argument, "anyone who disagrees with me isn't qualified to disagree with me".

I am a parent, and I think that any parent that needs to spy on their children, is obviously a poor parent. I don't need to spy on my kids, because we use communication and trust instead.

Re:yay, tracking!

[freeweed]

I would guess it's been a long time since you've been a kid.

Most parents' ideas as to what is 'safe' for their child, and what is not, has little to do with actual safety.

Witness how many people won't let their children go out on Hallowe'en, because they've heard that people poison candy. Yet to date there hasn't been a single documented case of a stranger poisoning children on Hallowe'en.

Unfortunately, too many parents over-react, and end up stifling their kids' lives, because of some nebulous 'safety' issue that isn't real. I can see something like 24-7 tracking becoming a great excuse for kids to *really* hate their parents.

(The above posted by a 28 year old who feels a lot closer to childhood than most parents)

Re:yay, tracking!

[freeweed]

Children are abused by people they know and trust at least an order of magnitude more often than by complete strangers.

By that logic, if we're really concerned for children's wellbeing, we should immediately sever all contact from family members and place them in anonymous state-run housing.

Re:yay, tracking!

[switcha]

OK, so instead of using an explicit example of when a parent might be concerned about their child (and thus deserves to control their privacy), if I had just said ...let the writers read them in 15 years when their daughter leaves the house..., would that have prevented you from erecting your gargantuan straw man?

I'd just like to know for future reference.

Re:yay, tracking!

[switcha]

Tell you what. I'll cede that no parent deserves the absolute right to know where their kid is if they want to, if you clear up all those pesky laws that hold me responsible if a minor of my household does something stupid and hurts/injures someone.

Re:yay, tracking!

[freeweed]

I would love to keep some of these comments in this thread and let the writers read them in 15 years when their 8 year old daughter is walking to school through their neighborhood containing ??? sex offenders (remember how y'all objected to the 2009 criminal notification proposal due to it's implemetation of rfid tags?).

You mentioned strawmen?

Re:yay, tracking!

[switcha]

Well, I see it as pertinent that the very same technology being "FUD'd" up in the thread, is the same that has the potential to increase the security of their families.

Granted, this is a different argument than the assertion that people without kids can't fully grasp what rights kids deserve, but both discussion are happening here.

As to your first comment, nowhere is my admittedly hyperbolic example, did I say they were strangers or known, and frankly it doesn't matter. You probably know people who have sex crimes in their past, unbeknownst to you.

Re:yay, tracking!

[ClarkEvans]

Kids right to privacy from their parents ends where the parents responsibilities to ensure their safety and well being begin.
And children are not qualified to judge where this line is. Anyone who thinks that children's privacy shouldn't be subject to parental discretion is not a parent.

Oh please -- like tracking children will magically enable good parenting. Good parenting starts early and often, if you have done your job as a parent you won't need, nor will you want to track your children. At some point they need to start thinking for themselves, preferably while you are still around to provide sound advice. Keeping your children on a leash is at best mis-guided. At worst, it will greatly exxaserbate the societal problem of child abuse (20% of the population is regularly abused by their parents or older siblings, often sexually). I say don't put your children on a leash unless you want to be on one. From another perspective you have to think about what kind of people you will create if they grow up on a leash... yes, perfect slaves. Be careful, or you may very well be seeding the enslavement of the next generation, by generating an expectation not of freedom and choice, but of restriction and survlence. And once they get into power, may they enslave you. No thank you.

Re:yay, tracking!

[swillden]

Good parenting starts early and often, if you have done your job as a parent you won't need, nor will you want to track your children.

Yeah, good parenting will keep my two year-old from running out the door and into the street the moment my back is turned. And it will enable me to ensure that my five year-old never forgets to shut the gate (to keep the two year-old in).

There is something to what you say, with regard to teenagers, but only something; in some cases tracking them would be of great benefit to parent and child. The fact is that even with good parents, all teens get rebellious, and some of them go rather far astray. Additional tools to help parents keep them from getting into too much trouble until they become rational again (which in some cases doesn't happen until the late 20s, but those kids are just plain gonna have a rough time of it; your parents can't take care of you forever) are valuable when used appropriately.

Anyone who thinks that badly misbehaving children (or teenagers) only act that way because of poor parenting has also not been a parent -- or has been a lucky one (likely with only one child). They come to us with their own, vastly different, personalities. We can teach, we can guide, we can discipline -- and above all we can love, listen and care -- but children are people, some of them very strong-willed people, and they make their own choices. And there are many cases where they don't have the experience, vision and understanding to make the right choices, or to understand the limitations that are being placed on them. In those cases "Because I say so" is the only answer, and any tools that can be used to help enforce that "say so" are valuable.

And even when parents are wrong (which happens frequently! Kids don't come with manuals!), they're still right, because they're responsible, and no one else is taking on that responsibility. There are exceptions, just like in everything else, but those exceptions are pretty much covered by the situations in which social services steps in.

I say don't put your children on a leash unless you want to be on one.

Uh huh. Come back and tell me this when you have at least 10 years of experience being a parent.

From another perspective you have to think about what kind of people you will create if they grow up on a leash... yes, perfect slaves.

And again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Teaching children to think for themselves is completely unrelated to how closely you keep tabs on them. If you want to teach children to think, you talk to them, explain things, ask them questions, establish situations in which they can *safely* make choices and handle the consequences. You can teach them to question the world without letting them run out into traffic (both literally and metaphorically).

Further, every child has to be taught differently. My eight year-old daughter has never needed to be taught independence and independent thinking; she started questioning the rules before she could talk. She has a very precise and literal mind which instantly latches onto any apparent discrepancy (she has a very programmerish mind, actually, and took to Logo like a fish to water). My five year-old son is more willing to go along, but tends to discard the rules he doesn't like, as opposed to the ones he doesn't think make sense, and still has a hard time remembering what he is and is not allowed to do. My 10 year-old son falls somewhere in between the two, but has a very unusual way of looking at everything, constantly trying to reinterpret the rules via odd and clever analogies (mostly to ideas gleaned from movies and games), plus he's also extremely impulsive, doing things without thinking them through at all. As for the youngest, well, all I can say is that he appears to be completely different from the others, but it's hard to say so far.

Although I would currently only find a tracking device useful for the two youngest, I can

Re:yay, tracking!

[Qeantk]

I agree, but I also believe the post in question was a reply to the "parents have ultimate rights to do as they wish with their children" posts, not the basic (a)morality of the device itself.

Re:yay, tracking!

[swillden]

Nice argument, "anyone who disagrees with me isn't qualified to disagree with me".

Uh huh. And you truly agree that your children should be able to keep whatever secrets they like? Either you're lying about something, or you've really gotten lucky with your children's personalities. If it's the latter (and if your kids are actually old enough for you to have dealt with significant issues) then I congratulate you.

I am a parent, and I think that any parent that needs to spy on their children, is obviously a poor parent. I don't need to spy on my kids, because we use communication and trust instead.

That's great! But tell me, what do you do when your child starts hiding things he or she wants to do and knows that you, even with all that communication, trust and understanding, won't permit? Or what about the child who's just plain impulsive and doesn't think through consequences before acting, how do you protect them without keeping tabs? Or what about the child who simply isn't old enough to understand what the limitations are? Try as I might, I cannot convince my five year-old son that he will drown if he swims in the irrigation canal. He knows he can swim, but cannot seem to accept that he would be unable to climb up those steeply slanted cement banks (I've actually considered taking him up there, putting a rope around him and letting him try it, but (a) I'm not sure he'd actually get the message and (b) it would be trespassing).

I see these tags as a tool, much like curfews, defined limits on distance from the house, rules about not going places without informing Mom or Dad, etc. Like all tools they have strengths and weaknesses and they can be used effectively, ineffectively or even abused.

One thing that occurs to me is that with location tags I could give my kids more freedom than they currently have: since they don't seem to be able to remember to ask before going to a friend's house (or to call after they arrive), we've had to get fairly draconian with the rules and associated penalties, simply so we know where they are. With tags, we'd be able to say: You can go anywhere you like in the neighborhood, as long as you take your tag with you so we can find you. Frankly, locator tags bolted to their bicycles would make the summer a lot less stressful, and they'd spend a lot less time grounded.

Re:yay, tracking!

[Tokerat]

A big obvious tag, yea, but perhaps it's hidden or non-obvious? Most people probably have no idea that RFID technology exists.
If I said "RFID" to anyone around here they'd probably go: "Or if my ID what?"

PS: How is it you know so much about the minds of child molesters? ;-)

Re:yay, tracking!

[anthony_dipierro]

Please stop taking attendance, it violates my right to something according to geeks at slashdot.

That would be the right to be secure against unreasonable seizures. The government should not be able to force children to go to school.

Re:yay, tracking!

[yanestra]

The people that misuse the technology are the problem, not the technology itself, which has perfectly legit, acceptable uses.

There are some technologies which can only be used for bad.

Take guns, for instance. You can only kill people with it (while it sometimes fails). The world would be happier if nobody had guns, but since they have, you have to have one too, of course, to protect yourself.

If the people can track you, they will. If the people can use it for abusing their children, they will. If you can plug it together to make it a super spy system, they will.

The simple reason is: This whole WozCrap has simply absotulely no use, except for making you feel better while you neglect you children and family. It can only be used for bad.

Succumbed to the Dark Side, Woz has....

[kremvax]

Although the description lists tenuous "Good" uses (tracking Children, the elderly, the insane )

the insidious uses outweigh these 10000 to 1.

Total (location) information awareness.

I feel safer already...

Kremvax

Re:Succumbed to the Dark Side, Woz has....

[keesh]

Hmm, because of course children and insane people don't have rights...

Re:Succumbed to the Dark Side, Woz has....

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what? The technology has been around for a long time.

So? The same technology that can help me know where my dogs are (I have hunting hounds that I currently track by radio collar), could be put on your belt buckle to track you.

This will be cheaper and easier, that's all.

And so what?

If anyone wanted to track you, they could by now. Half your life is videotaped

[privacy rant]

[Anonymous Coward]

Yay, more techonolony to track our movements, soon to be compulsary in every country covered by dmca style laws.
[/rant]
On a different subject, is anyone thinking woz is getting a little bigheaded with the whole Wheels Of Zeus and Woznet and those eyes....

I-

[Mu*puppy]

I love Big Woz!

"Remember, Big Woz is watching... and wants you to buy a Segway."

Re:I-

[rjung2k]

...and use a Mac!

now that i'm a parent.

[Brigadier]

At first glance I didn't really think much of this .... but ooooo wouldn' I love to put a tag on those little buggers new airwalks so next time they skip school or are late on their kerphew(sp) I can zero in on there ass.

Re:now that i'm a parent.

[hobbesmaster]

Its parents like you that give us high school geeks social status. ;)

Re:now that i'm a parent.

[Renesis]

Maybe it's you that shouldn't have skipped school, then you could have learnt the basics of grammar and spelling! :)

- Chaz

This is cool!

[Creepy Crawler]

Before, ol' Big Brother could watch us with no repurcussions. Now, we can watch almost just as much of what they do. It equals the playing field of spy-security.

In the future, everybody's going to have some sort of recording device somewhere: street corners, CCTV's in buildings, parking cams, possibly car-cams for "anti-theft".... I want some of that power to use against everybody too.

Just like the NSA thought about releasing NSA-Patches for Linux: If we cant get in them, make it so nobody else can either!

Re:This is cool!

[bennomatic]

> Before, ol' Big Brother could watch us with no repurcussions. Now, we can watch
> almost just as much of what they do. It equals the playing field of spy-security.

In Russia, Big Brother watches YOU! Oh, wait...

It's worse than we thought

[Jonsey]

I have seen Big Brother. And he uses a Mac. :: Shudder ::

Re:It's worse than we thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if only he'd use windows, then he might crash a lot, and get frustrated, and stop monitoring people.

Line of sight?

[stevebob2019]

Doesn't GPS only have a line of sight connection? What happens if the electronic tag is covered?

Re:Line of sight?

[Machine9]

GPS works by means of satellites man...

Global Positioning System.

Re:Line of sight?

[Phroggy]

GPS works by means of satellites man...

Presumably he means line-of-sight to the satelite, not to the base station. Satelite TV doesn't work too well if you cover the dish; GPS can't be much different.

Woz vs Joy

[swordgeek]

Most people here have read Bill Joy's article on "why the future doesn't need us." One thing he mentioned in the article is that he may have a moral directive in the near future to stop developing in the field he helped create, because it was doing more harm than good to society.

This is exactly how I see Woz's latest project. It sounds like something that has FAR more potential to be invasive and violating than it does to be useful. I'm a bit surprised, actually--Woz has always struck me as doing weird but cool stuff, not nasty stuff.

Anyways, it seems a sad day when one of the proto-geeks is forgetting to look at what he's actually doing from a larger perspective.

Re:Woz vs Joy

[swillden]

I'm a bit surprised, actually--Woz has always struck me as doing weird but cool stuff, not nasty stuff.

Perhaps you're surprised because your understanding of his technology is flawed? Perhaps he's thought it through more deeply and thoroughly than you have? Perhaps there's more to it than is described in the brief newspaer article?

Nahh...

Re:Woz vs Joy

[Rand Race]

I think your and Bill Joy's perspectives are the limited ones. Do you really think that such technologies won't be developed under governmental auspices in lieu of public research? I'd much rather have moral types like Woz and Joy developing the technology, providing the info to the public, and distributing it to anyone who wishes to purchase the tech than to just have the tech in the hands of, say, the CIA.

I don't think you can stop scientific/technological progress without tipping the balance of power far, far to the State's side.

You can't close Pandora's box.

Re:Woz vs Joy

[swordgeek]

Hmm.

I never said that I agreed with Bill's view that we Must Stop Research in some fields, for the very same reason that you stated: It's going to happen. You can't stop it. If you try to prevent it, then it will likely be developed by the WORST group to have that sort of power, whatever it is.

That said, I do still believe that as technologists, we have a moral responsibility to at least look at the research we do. We can't stop it, but if we see the potential for danger, then we can potentially sidetrack it--push hard for development in the "good" ways, and development of the worst aspects will lag.

It's an interesting problem. We can't stop technology from arriving, but we can't (or at least I can't) morally justify throwing up our hands and saying, "oh well--nothing we could have done." If technology--hell, ANYTHING--is going to be an asset to society, then we have to thoughtfully approach it from a social aspect.

Contest!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a good exercise:

How many ways can you come up with on how this information could be used and abused through obtaining it by subpeonas under the authority of by the DMCA, Patriot Act, IRS, etc.?

Re:Contest!

[Supero100]

Actually, we don't need to wait for new technology. I can't remember exactly where I gained the information to follow, but I can leave this to a karma-hungry slashdotter. Anyway, an otherwise cold-case about a child's abduction/murder was recently solved by the police covertly attaching a gps transmitter to a suspect's car, and tracking his movements. Granted, he eventually led the police to her shallow grave as they retraced his steps - so in a way justice was served, but scarier is the fact that police can do this without a warrant! It did, in fact, hold up in court that this was legal, or at least admissible, under the defense that the GPS served the same purpose as human surveillence. I don't know about the legal precedents here but can only imagine that $25-devices will only make these kinds of issues all the more prominent. Anyway, my $.02 on a potentially important law-enforcement abuse of this technology...

Slashdotter Internal Conflict

[mcc]

1) this is really, really evil and scary. i'm terrified by the idea of parents implanting these in their kids feet or something when they're tiny and knowing everything they do from that point forward. i'm even more terrified by the idea of corporations requiring the same of their employees, since that's something that could concievably, in an imperfect world, happen to me. i'm scared of vigilantes and criminals and government agencies secretly doing this to people they are targetting, leading to scenes like the one in the elevator in Enemy of the State.

2) But Steve Wozniak did this! Steve Wozniak is really cool and non-evil!

**head explodes**

Re:Slashdotter Internal Conflict

[Ahaldra]

I think F. S. Fitzgerald once said:

The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at once
and still retain the ability to function.

Apart from that, the picture of that WoZ-mark looks far bigger than these other evil 1mm RFID tags and are therefore far easier to detect. (so less likely to be used to invade your privacy)

Crapper Tracker

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Now I'll be able to know how long my dad's been in the bathroom, and when it's safe to go in. Especially after chili night.

Think of the possibilities...

[Dutchmaan]

You can know when your respective spouse leaves the house (for the paranoid) ...or you can know when your respective spouse approaches the house (for the paranoid)

Re:Think of the possibilities...

[zymurgy_cat]

Look at the article intro. You can do even better. You'll know when your respective spouse leaves the house with your kid in the car and runs over your dog who's left the yard...or any possible combination thereof.

whoa

[thung226]

Photographer: "Steve, give me cruel!" *snap* "give me happy!" *snap* "give me insane giant about to smash me with oversized computer chip! Perfect!" *snap* *snap* --

Sounds Good

[PakProtector]

This sounds good. I'd love to be able to know when one of my three dogs gets out of the house without having to search every room while shouting their names.

Always knowing where that ever vital 'so small it should be reclassified as a nano-tool' screwdriver is would also be great.

Re:Sounds Good

[Ian Wolf]

Always knowing where that ever vital 'so small it should be reclassified as a nano-tool' screwdriver is would also be great.

Thats it! Sign me up! Seriously, I'm stopping on the way home to pick up a couple screwdrivers because my last flat-head has apparently run off with half my socks, and the extension cord.

For those who don't like to register:

[stienman]

Macworld UK says "WozNet is a lost cause"

Macworld has a pretty decent article

Cryptonomican bemoans the lack of information about security

Google has the goods

And there's even an article on Slashdot about it...

Last time I looked at it it was essentially a watch with both GPS and GSM (phone) built in so one could get the location of the watch at any time through their service. Sounds like a potentail DOS atack, though, if you obtain phone numbers or cell phone connection information (jamming signals, jamming GPS, etc)

Plus, since all the power is being used by the phone and GPS (chances are good the actual GPS processing is done elsewhere, like in the current E991 GPS services offered by phones) then it's unlikely that much encryption is being done at all.

-Adam

Re:For those who don't like to register:

[Jaeger]

The link in the article is from Google, so the NY Times will let you click through without registering. (Apparently they don't bother checking the referral.)

Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, you say the bad outweighs the good 10000 to 1. Prove it. Cite examples. Woz has good examples of harmless and useful ways this technology can be used, so let's see your examples of how it could be abused.

Re:Really?

[S.O.B.]

I'm not the person who posted the original comment but I'll give you a few examples.

• A hitman (or is it hitperson) can track their intended target without being seen and wait for them to be in an isolated location
• A criminal can leisurely rob your house because they put a tag on your car and they know exactly where you and your car are. Instead of just having a few easy to carry items stolen you come home to find everything of value gone because the thief knew exactly how long he could take.
• An abusive spouse/parent can impose even more control over their victim and even track them down when the abused spouse/child try to run away.
• A rapist could sit in a mall parking lot and wait for a woman to get out of her car and go inside. He could then put a tag on her car and follow her around at a distance until the right moment to strike.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

All of which can be done now.

Your logic is up there with "CD burners can be used to violate copyrights, therefore they should all be banned".

Re:Really?

[stevejsmith]

Pirating music isn't life-threatening. Once a risk becomes life-threatening, the weight of the risk is significantly more.

Re:Really?

[S.O.B.]

What's different here is that each one of those things has become infinitely easier and more likely to be successful due to this technology. Your logic is up there with "Let's give everyone a loaded gun because guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Without this technology the hitman couldn't follow his target without being seen.

Without this technology the thief would not know that you are a 5 hour drive away so he can take his time.

Without this technology an abusive parent/spouse wouldn't know that their victim has run away or to where. The abuser also wouldn't know their hiding place to within a few feet.

Without this technology a rapist wouldn't be able to track his intended victim from the comfort of his own home.

I'm not saying this technology shouldn't be made available because there are a number of positive uses. I'm just saying that before we make it available to criminals, rapists and pedophiles that maybe, just maybe we might want to think about the consequences first.

Re:Really?

[S.O.B.]

And one more thing. Don't you think my right to not be tracked by some low life who puts a tag on my car is the same as your right to post as an Anonymous Coward?

Or another excuse to not pay attention

[Cappy Red]

Introducing WozCrutch, a product with some good possible implementations, but that will be used more often for the bad. Let it watch your kids, pets, anyone or anything you care about, so you can forget to. They don't move as fast as you think they do anyway.

*honk*

Best of luck, be careful

[American AC in Paris]

Arrgh, it's the same old love/hate game again. Woz rocks, and I want him to succeed, but this little thing is exactly the kind of device that any number of unscrupulous/patriarchal legislators drool over.

The arguments for and against such tracking devices have been hashed out several gazillion times here on /., so I'll spare the replay, but there's one important difference here: this is Woz. He's no starry-eyed upstart CEO or engineering student; he's one of geekhood's geekiest, and he knows what he's doing (certainly as far as the tech end of things are concerned.) I think that he stands a good chance of making this thing work. It's exciting and frightening to think about.

Best of luck, Woz. Please be careful.

sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been looking for just this thing to stick on my friend's psycho boyfriend's car so when he drives by my house to stalk me I will have advanced warning.

WOZ, dont do it!

[nurb432]

So disappointed in him. He's a brilliant person, doesn't he realize what he is doing, supporting such draconian monitoring?

If anyone should see the handwriting on the wall is him..

*shakes head in disgust*

Re:WOZ, dont do it!

[matlokheed]

This is hard to make invasion of privacy out of. It's completely voluntary and that's what makes it non-evil.

The initial thoughts from most people is for watching their children and I think it's amazing how many people think that's wrong. I know way too many parents who's burnout kids are their burnout kids because their parents weren't paying enough attention. Kids are stupid and unpredictable. When a friend's brother ran away from home with his underage girlfriend, I'm sure his parents would've loved one of these things. Or the other brother who was a druggie and would disappear for days on end, skipping school... you don't think this would have big advantages?

This isn't the evil government watching us. It's on too small a scale and most importantly, it's voluntary. How would anyone organize the tracking into useful data? What if I switch around what I mark, so one week my keys are one tag and the next it's my bike... and then my cat.

If it becomes government mandated, then yes, it becomes evil. But for now? What's the problem with it?

The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[Anonymous Coward]

mwah ha ha ha

1) Police put tracking devices on you... If anyone can get them, who's to say it was the police...

2) A stalker plants one in the victim's purse...

3) An election campaign plants them on the opposition's sign crew...

4) Agents provocateurs carry them in protests, making it so much easier to co-ordinate them...

5) You neighbour plants one on you, and calls the tipline whenever you happen to go through a bad neighbourhood, or near a mosque, hoping to get a reward...

And many more...

Re:The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[rokzy]

er, well that's 5. I assume you have another (infinity - 5) possibilities jotted down on a napkin .

I would imagine all of those things are, or would be, crimes and could be dealt with accordingly.

it seems ironic that people have such a luddite attitude on a board only accessible with a fair amount of technology.

anyway, if you object to technology because it has possibilities for abuse computers would be the first to be sabotaged. looks like this is what the RIAA etc. wants. do you agree with them, or are you a hypocrite?

Re:The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you have another (infinity - 5) possibilities jotted down on a napkin .

And I assume you've never taken a course on number theory or persuasive writing.

it seems ironic that people have such a luddite attitude on a board only accessible with a fair amount of technology.

Being aware of the risks of a technology is not argueing against all technology. To be sure, once these come on the market, I'll seriously look at getting a base station so I can detect the tags. Not because I'm paranoid, but because I'm prudent. I've worked on a fair share of election campaigns and have seen all manner of dirty tricks (from smashing signs, to sending fake emails with false times for meetings, etc.).

Likewise, I use computers, despite being aware of the risks. That's why I use a patched firewall, updated virus checkers, encryption when possible, and think carefully about everything I write and/or forward in an email.

looks like this is what the RIAA etc. wants. do you agree with them, or are you a hypocrite?

No.

Re:The possibilities for abuse are endless...

[ndogg]

6) I'll not have to worry so much about losing my keys.

7) A group of people in a forest will be able to stay together easier, and thus be able to explore more.

8) Pets could be less likely to be lost.

9) Marathon runners could be tracked by audiences.

10) Parents could keep track of young kids in a store.

Overreacting much?

[Prince_Ali]

I don't understand the need to go off on how a technology is "Orwellian." (First off actually learn what the book is about before stating everything is out of 1984) This technology is not bad. It has potentially bad uses, but that doesn't matter. Complain when those bad uses actually occur (they probably won't). The government is not going to say, "Look the guy from Apple computers made this thing... time to put it on everyone in the country without them knowing about it."

I am aware that /. does not speak with one voice, but the general values expressed by its members are odd. If it is something that can be used for violating privacy (but hasn't) it is feared, but if something is used for piracy ALOT, it should be considered good regardless of the illegal nature of its use because it has non-infringing uses.

By the way, children have no right to privacy from their parents.

Re:Overreacting much?

[Painaxl]

I see your point, but once those evil uses are happening, isn't it harder to stop?

Shouldn't people know the possible consequences of technology?

Besides, that sounds like exactly something our government would do. The next Patriot Act could very well include something you knew nothing about (hell, the first one did). Maybe we're paranoid, but I think we've come to the point where it is much more reasonable to be that way.

Re:Overreacting much?

[The Angry Mick]

By the way, children have no right to privacy from their parents.

But they DO have a right to privacy from everyone else. Some Examples:

Marketers

Estranged Parents

Mentally Ill Relatives

Pedophiles

Re:Overreacting much?

[sabernar]

Come on, everyone knows that the typical /.'er wants everything for free, but doesn't want "the man" knowing anything about them. Anything that helps the first (i.e. p2p) is good, and anything that has the POTENTIAL for helping the second (i.e. WozNet) is bad.

Re:Overreacting much?

[jkitchel]

Finally. A sane, rational remark concerning this sort of technology on slashdot. Thanks. Hopefully, others will follow, but I'm not holding my breath.

No offense, but...

[siskbc]

You're also ignoring something here: We CONSENT to having these tags placed on something, and only what we want them placed on. No surprises here, and nothing's being tracked that we don't want tracked.

...that's obscenely naive. So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go? What if your wife does it? What if your boss does it? See, there's nothing at all that implies consent here.

I'm sure Woz was trying to do something cool, and believe me I would love to know where my fscking keys and remote are like everyone else, but there are some more nefarious uses that will be among the first applications for the device.

Re:No offense, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

> So what's stopping me from putting one on your car
> and knowing everywhere you go?

And that technology isn't available today? HAVEN'T YOU WATCHED JAMES BOND???

Re:No offense, but...

[bhawbaker]

how different is that from hiring a detective to track your wife which you can do now :)

Re:No offense, but...

[Pirogoeth]

So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go?

Or even worse, something like this which happened in my hometown.

Re:No offense, but...

[siskbc]

how different is that from hiring a detective to track your wife which you can do now :)

Less than $25.

Btw, did you catch her getting rogered in a hotel room? ;)

Re:No offense, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your wife will probably notice after awhile if a shady guy in a car is trailing her.

A nilla-wafer-sized microchip on the underside of her car, though, she will have no reason to get suspicious..

Re:No offense, but...

[ek_adam]

Woz has invented the Spidey's spider tracer!

that's one out of three...

[pb]

Now all we need is a 6MW laser and a large, spinning mirror, and we can vaporize a human target from space!

Re:that's one out of three...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or make popcorn.

Re:that's one out of three...

[S.O.B.]

Would you prepared if gravity reversed itself? The only thing I can't figure out is how to keep the change in my pockets. I've got it! Nudity!

Re:that's one out of three...

[commodoresloat]

sharks. Don't forget the sharks. We need some place to put the freakin' lasers!

Re:that's one out of three...

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget the need for a SSTO spacecraft

truly, the impressive accomplisment

Re:that's one out of three...

[sharkey]

Or popcorn! We could make popcorn!

The good, the bad, and the Woz

[xThinkx]

Just like everything Woz comes up with, I don't think it's fair to call this a "good" or a "bad" thing yet.

Right away I'm sure the privacy guys are jumping up and down, and I can't say I blame them. This chip would make it a complete bitch to hook class and/or work.

BUT at the same time, it'd be real nice to hide one of these suckers in my car (I know lowjack exists, but from the article it appears this tech will deliver much better performance) in case it would get stolen. Throwing these things in handhelds and laptops could also be a godsend. Hey, those things are about the size of a keychain, no more looking for your keys ever again.

Again, it's not possible now, or maybe ever to render judgment on this technology. However, Woz better be damn sure to regulate who can and can't locate said devices (how many men want their wives/girlfriends to know their every moves?). 100 years from now we'll look back at Woz as one of the great innovators of our time

Re:The good, the bad, and the Woz

[pi_rules]

100 years from now we'll look back at Woz as one of the great innovators of our time

Not to be combative... but I already do.

Re:I need more coffee...

[jpsst34]

Nope

Re:Why hasn't someone told me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if you'll excuse me I have overpriced, underpowered fancy colored computers to sell while killing off all Macintosh third-party-developers.

While you're at it, get a hair piece youself, you fat fuck. Have you looked in the mirror yourself lately??

or a car leaves the parking lot?????

[jinglecat]

This component of the sentence sounds wierd.

I am going to ignore that sentence. Cars don't move by themselves.

Re:or a car leaves the parking lot?????

[schatten]

what about K.I.T.T. ?

Re:or a car leaves the parking lot?????

[stratjakt]

KITT was a robot that looked like a car, but nonetheless not a car, and doesnt count.

Now Herbie, was, in all fact, a car that moved by itself.

Re:or a car leaves the parking lot?????

[CausticWindow]

Ah, Herbie. What utterly lame and downright stupid things we enjoyed as kids.

I blame Disney.

Now, KITT on the other hand, is still cool. Hasselhof has faded quite a bit though.

Re:I need more coffee...

[Tumbleweed]

> Did anyone else read WozNet and think, oh great, another porno network.

Nope, just you, you sick bastard. :)

some of both, actually.

[pb]

On the pages, it says that you can extend its range over the internet--but it also says that there's security built in as well. So you can let people track your stuff globally if you want to, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[kaltkalt]

Then it is instantly accepted, and anyone who disagrees with it is a pedophile child-hater-beater. "Saving Our Children" is the ultimate form of marketing in the 21st century. Nearly every bill proposed in Congress begins with the "statement of finding" that "In order to protect our children...." That way nobody can dissent, or else... well ya know. Instant per se pedophile.

It really sickens me that human larvae cause us to lose all our rights. If they're so precious, stick them in a safety deposit box until they're 18. Or learn to be a responsible parent... oh wait, that's not practicable, I forgot.

Re:If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[Quill_28]

Yes, you are right. Because every child that has died in an accident, was molested, kidnapped was because of a irresponsible parent.

You are quite clueless.

Re:If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[Vegeta99]

Think you're the only one? I'm 17.

In order to protect me since apparenbtly every teen was driving home too fast from 11-12 to be home before curfey, they changed the curfew to 11PM. Now all those accidents are between 10-11. So much for work!

Went to WalMart yesterday. They had Mercon V transmission fluid on sale. I took a year of schooling in car mechanics at HS, but I can't buy Mercon V because I'm under 18. I can't buy a battery, I can't buy oil, not even washer fluid because of "safety reasons"
Why? Some idiot parent lets their kid drive out to the middle of nowhere to walmart to buy some motor oil to huff.

Re:If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[kaltkalt]

You are quite stupid if you think that was my point. But the most we can/should do is ban child moseltation (done), ban kidnapping (done), and encourage people to drive safely (done). Anything else is taking away my rights in order to "protect" those who should be protected by parents, not by laws.

Re:If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[Quill_28]

That was your point. You called children larvae, and parents irresponsible, all while claiming your rights are being violated.

Re:If it can be used to "protect the children"....

[kaltkalt]

Parents are responsible for the actions of their larvae. Natural selection should be allowed to take its course.

Logistics

[SeattleGameboy]

This seems to me is a whole lotta work for nothing. Just to cover San Francisco and its immediate suburbs (about 75 miles by 45 miles = 3375 square miles), you need over 800 nodes installed every 4 square miles (range of 1 miles each way). To me this is a lot of work just to keep track of your pets (unlikely) or kids (more interesting, but still not a killer app). I wonder if Woz has some other application for this network than just tracking someone that he rather not share...

Re:Logistics

[bhawbaker]

i don't think you need it at every point.. like for kids, you need only one at school. If you don't get notification within whenever your kid is supposed to arrive, you will know. I donn't think this is for tracking, but rather notificaiton upon arriving or leaving(pets) for tracking, get somethign else.. like Lojack for cars i guess.

Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[thanq]

The tags "will be able to generate alerts, notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school(...)

I can BET that once those tags are out kids will figure out how to fool them. The simplest thing comes to mind right away.... Because the system tracks TAGS and not KIDS, young ones figure out a good scheme: give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school. Once you come back, pick up the tag from the keeper and go home without attending school, all while the parents think their loved one is learning.

Same thing with the dog... Bet someone soon would yell out:

"Honey come quick, I think sparky died under this tree, he has not been moving for 4 hours already.." Just moments before learning that the tag lies in a pile of poo after Sparky ate it and then... well.. put it out throug the other end.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[garcia]

duh. I figured this would be for one of a few things:

1) parents hiding it on an item that the child is likely to carry at all times.

2) for SMALL children who are going to/from school via bus/walking who wouldn't know to care about the tag that is tracking them.

3) I have recently been involved with saving two dogs crossing a busy 5 lane highway + divider. One of the dogs had a 1-800 # and tracking #. Called the #, found out the name of the animal with the tag and they even had a note about other animals it might be roaming with. The service contacted the owner who came and picked up the animals within minutes. The dogs didn't eat that tag, why this one?

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[stienman]

A device I saw which claims to do the same thing (could be the same) was a watch that is locked onto the persons arm - it can be unlocked manually or remotely, but requires a key of some sort or an unlock command for central.

Just wrap tinfoil around it, or better yet, slam it against every wall you walk past. Eventually it'll get too expensive to replace, and the old fashioned methods of checking up on your own kids yourself and becoming involved in their lives will again become common.

-Adam

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[Anonymous Coward]

Balloons. Helium balloons. Kid clips the tag to a large balloon which is then set free to follow the winds, the ever-changing unceasing winds. Parent tries to follow using a 2-D map. Parental hair is torn out in frustration.

Dogs. Kid tosses tag into back yard of neighbors with vicious Doberman.

Shielding. Kid wraps tag in tinfoil every morning. Parents conclude school building blocks RF.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[stienman]

No. House arrest devices typically require an on-premises device hooked up to a regular phone line to operate.

The device I mentioned was in Micro Center on a display. It looked like an oversized watch with a thick plastic band that didn't appear to be flexible.

Besides, ankle bracelet house arrest devices don't receive pages or show current time. If they did then criminals might show up to court on time instead of claiming traffic was bad as they are put under another 60 days of house arrest for being 6 minutes late.

-Adam

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[whm]

I think you're assuming the wrong thing about the purpose of these tags. Certainly, if a child wants to remain untrackable they can simply leave the tag some place.

But I think the purpose here is more for SMALL children, so a parent can have the peace of mind that they child gets of the bus safely, etc. Sure, this doesn't mean the kid isn't going to leave it some place on accident or something, but at a younger age there is little incentive for the child to do that intentionally.

That's all really. I don't think it solves any real problems, but I can definitely see a large number of parents liking the idea of some sort of indication of their child's location. Particularly with all the sensationalism people feed on regarding stolen and missing children, etc.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[Anonymous Coward]

you're fucking stupid.

They are attached to your leg as an anklet and can track where you are (useful for work allowances during house arrest)

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[scottcha 4]

Yeah us parents are so stupid. What would we do without our genius kids to explain everthing to us?

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[startled]

"I can BET that once those tags are out kids will figure out how to fool them."

Of course they will! Come on-- sneaking out of the house, seeing a movie you weren't supposed to, finding a guy to buy you beer-- all of those are big parts of the experience of growing up. Now, add to that list "hacking your parents' WozNet". :) Forcing kids to be more technologically savvy is pretty sweet.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[prockcore]

give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school. Once you come back, pick up the tag from the keeper and go home without attending school, all while the parents think their loved one is learning.

I have patented and trademarked the "Designated Decoy" System.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[stmfreak]

I can BET that once those tags are out kids will figure out how to fool them. The simplest thing comes to mind right away.... Because the system tracks TAGS and not KIDS, young ones figure out a good scheme: give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school. Once you come back, pick up the tag from the keeper and go home without attending school, all while the parents think their loved one is learning.

Sure and the ruse goes on for weeks and the kid thinks they're soooo smart and have their parents fooled. Then mom gets a call from the principal asking why little-billy hasn't been attending home-economics for the last few weeks and the game is up. Mom does a surprise visit to school to check on billy and finds out that while his TAG is in home-economics, billy is not.

Billy is now soooooo busted and his parents have learned that Billy is not the responsible little boy they thought he was, despite all his assurances. Privileges disappear and Billy has to work his ass off to make up for lost grace with the folks.

Monitoring kids is not about Big Brother or just putting a hammer down on them, it's about monitoring their development into adults. It's about determining if your children are ready for life's next set of challenges, like car keys or extended curfews, or making their own decisions regarding money or friends.

It's not to be confused with Big Brother snooping because it is individually applied, not one size fits all. Most importantly, kids eventually grow up, leave home and can throw off the leash. There is no light at the end of the tunnel with Big Brother spying on us.

I would really like to have this sort of system for my children just so I know where they are. Not, "what are they doing" snooping, but in a, "I haven't seen billy in a while, I wonder if he's okay? Oh, he's on I-5 heading south, better call the police now" way of caring. Our kids blow through their curfew frequently. It would be nice to know whether to head South, North, East or West when we go out looking for them, or whose house to call. I can see this sort of thing actually increasing freedom of movement for children because the act of "reporting in" which they do so poorly, would be automatically taken care of by technology.

And when they circumvent it, you know they're ready for one of those, "importance of trust" talks.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, when they sit you down and say, "dad you are a moron for not trusting us and instead trying to flash gordon us into your abbreviated model of parental responsibility, so long, thanks for all the fish", right before joining a speed goth metal punk "band" heading out of town... when this happens, you will know what to do, right? can't click on the cancel button pops, this is Real Life.

basically, it is your job to earn the trust of the kid when they are actually dependent on you (when they are young) so that they feel comfortable sharing their life w/ you later when they are no longer dependent (when it may be, actually, the other way around: you will need them).

good luck, newbie parents everywhere.

Re:Can you say CIRCUMVENTION?

[TwP]

give the tag to a "keeper" for few classes and then skip school.

Just wrap the tag in aluminum foil. That will block the GPS signals and then you cannot be tracked. It might block the 900MHz communication signal too, but only experimentation will tell.

Personally, I would like to attach them to all my socks on laundry day, that way I can find out where the dryer is hiding all of them :)

For you Mac Lovers...

[Anonymous Coward]

... neat Mac merchandise at CafePress!

where did I leave my base station?

[Cappy Red]

Keys are a fairly common thing to lose... but I lose everything else too. If I got one of these it would just mean that I'd have to have a tag for the base station.

Maybe I should just forgo material possessions so I can get all my stuff back. It would be easier... and cheaper.

*bork*

The first kid . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

The first kid to wrap a piece of foil around his new 'watch' will bankrupt this company.

But how sensitive and accurate is it?

[precogpunk]

I'm trying to figure out how useful this would be given the range and the sensitivity. I'd love to see an affordable version of the BATs used at AT&T labs to track movement within my house and personalize the environment. I don't see GPS being as responsive and there are so many other ways to tell if "Johnny made it to school". A 1-2 mile range seems limiting but it could serve as an early wife-on-her-way-home warning system.

Re:Some suggestions for the Linux community

[Anonymous Coward]

That was amusing. :)

How long..?

[cspenn]

And how long until WozNet becomes subpoena'd for records by the Department of Homeland Security?

Yes, each cluster is locally administered, not by a large agency, but there's nothing saying that implementations of the pager/SMS/email must require cc:jashcroft@doj.gov...

Food for thought.

APRS...

[Andy Dodd]

While I have an extreme problem with the government tracking my comings and goings, I find your comment interesting considering that I want to install an APRS setup in my car.

http://www.aprs.org/ has more information. The basic premise is that it will broadcast your position peridically encapsulated with AX.25 UI packets over an amateur radio interface. Typically 1200bps AFSK on (I believe) 144.39 MHz. Anyone who wants to can tune in.

I think a major aspect of it in addition to "general availability" is that you can turn off your APRS beacon any time you want...

Many uses

[Mu*puppy]

Spot has left the yard.
Activate shock collar? Yes/No
You have chosen Yes. Spot has returned to the yard.

Your son Scott has driven the car to a remote location with Susie L. (Ref. # 1098345723) and has entered the back seat with her, probably to screw her brains out.
Administer punishment? Yes/"HELL yes!"

Re:Many uses

[NeuroManson]

That's nothing, imagine if mom or dad makes a slight interpretational error after a wine cooler bender:

"Spot has driven the car to a remote location.", etc etc etc.

And better still,

"Scott has left the yard. Activate shock collar?"

Re:Many uses

[Anonymous Coward]

...

This is why America is fucked up. Why the hell shouldn't teenagers get to have sex?

Re:Many uses

[Suidae]

Actually the problem was that Suzie L.'s ID had a picture, and the kid would have been better off with Spot.

That is one take on it that is often missed.

[mindstrm]

Wired had a good article about this in it's early days....

The idea came from "Who watches the watchers".

The idea is that, rather than just government watching everything, EVERYONE can watch everything.. so the people have access to the same resources as the police.

Public security cameras all over the place in public areas? ALL of the public have access to them, not just the government.

Or teh alternate scenario.

Public cameras everywhere, only the police have access to them, but then there are cameras on the police, where all their actions are tracked... and the public has access to those.. so we watch them while they watch us. This could prevent abuse.

Re:That is one take on it that is often missed.

[Metasquares]

Sounds very much like The Transparent Society, though I don't know where the idea actually originated from.

Re:That is one take on it that is often missed.

[ChuyMatt]

Truthfully, many European countries seem to have this rather down. The Dutch, which i know a bit about, have the nearest to a transparent society, at least on the govt. level, that i have ever seen. EVERYthing is televised from what i saw. all documents that are not TRULY national security (with a non superpower, that is most everything) are open to the public and easily accessible on the internet. If there is corruption, you have the ability to know it. The US needs to take a page off that book and get a bit less secretive with things. EVERYTHING is not a mater of national security.

how the hell am I supposed to feel about this?

[jjeffries]

I mean, tracking is pure evil, but the Woz can do no wrong!

Immovable object, meet irresistable force.

my brain hurts! HELP!!! CALL -151!

Re:how the hell am I supposed to feel about this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one, welcome our new Wozniakian overlords.

Re:how the hell am I supposed to feel about this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume us or merely enslave us.

Easy to defeat.

[spineboy]

Just microwave your clothes for about 5 seconds...That should take care of any anoying built in clothing bugs. I guess there will be RFID scanners being sold too. Just periodically sweep your stuff to see what's been bugged. I'm not sure what to do about the ones they're putting in car tires now, though..

Re:Easy to defeat.

[ralico]

I'm not sure what to do about the ones they're putting in car tires now, though.
Get a really BIG microwave?

Holy shit!

[siskbc]

And that technology isn't available today? HAVEN'T YOU WATCHED JAMES BOND???

You're right! I think I read a story about that on my watch while my car was driving itself.

This is the next "killer app"...

[Anonymous Coward]

For pimpz.

Thats how they did it

[shagrat]

This must be how the gadget in Weasly house works.

Location Aware Devices

[TwP]

Put one of these in your laptop and it will become "location aware". When you are at home and login, your home settings will be automatically loaded by the machine. When you are at work and login, your work settings will be automatically loaded. At the local coffee shop? Same thing.

It will also function as a lo-jack device for small and expensive personal stuff: laptops, ipods, cell phones, etc.

Did they figure out weak signal GPS though? If not, then the device will not work indoors and will severely limit its applications.

Worst possible uses all follow a single theme:

[kremvax]

It's a natural fit to use a device like this to track an individual, their location, their posessions, etc without their explicit, uncoerced consent.

All the same arguements that apply to the slightly RFID debate. Though this is a lot more powerful/practical for extended-range/duration tracking.

Sure, there are no bad machines, only bad owners, etc... But the candy will prove too tempting for Power to resist its use/overuse.

The Ministry of Freedom / Homeland Sec. will *love* these.

Just one citizen's opinion,

Kremvax

combine with mobile...

[rokzy]

==> Star Trek communicator

although, like mobiles, this great technology will probably end up just being annoying (because OTHER people don't know how to use it "properly" like I do ;-)

Alert Reliability

[afreniere]

In my experience, unreliable information is quickly ignored. If, in even 1 out of 50 cases, the alert is either generated erroneously or missed entirely, then the user will momentarily panic that their child is not at school or the dog has escaped -- call the school, and discover that the child is there. After one or two instances of this, all other false negatives/positives will be dismissed as a "glitch" and the information will become useless. So this alert tagging isn't going to work unless the networks are very reliable. Just stirring the pot a little.

-Ansel.

Sweet.

[NeoPotato]

I'm gonna tag all my socks before I dry them. Now I can finally find out where they go when the dryer eats them!

Re:Sweet.

[sharkey]

Wow, Jerry Seinfeld reads Slashdot!

Childrens rights?

[CausticWindow]

Not in the US, anyway.

The Convention on the Rights of the Child is the most widely accepted human rights treaty - of all the United Nations member states, only the United States and the collapsed state of Somalia have not ratified it. The United States continues to lead a defensive action against Children's human Rights lobbying against further measures designed to protect children - most recently against efforts to stop the use of child soldiers.

Re:Childrens rights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which do you think it is -- that the US is less concerned with the rights of children than are Sudan, North Korea and Sierra Leone? Or that the US recognizes that these "treaties" are disgraceful farces that do nothing but make US law subservient to scumbag signatories like Sudan, North Korea and Sierra Leone?

Of course, you probably agree with Amnesty International that the "UN Commission on Human Rights", led by Libya and including Sudan, Cuba and Syria, is to be taken seriously.

Re:Childrens rights?

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFLROFL rofl rofl you are SO dead on target here. How can ANYONE on this planet think Libya is a country that can responsibly make decisions regarding human rights? What's next, make China the global human rights supervisor? Only in the UN. if only it weren't true, it would be hilarious.

Re:Childrens rights?

[Bob Uhl]

Ah, yes, the infamous Convention on the Rights of the Child. That document which mandates registration of children (Article 7). That document which gives unto children a full 'right' of expression without the accompanying responsibility (Article 12). That document which guarantees children the 'right' to view whatever they will, subject only to anti-libel, anti-slander and morality laws (Article 13); thus, parents cannot control their children, but the State can. That document which guarantees day care facilities (Article 18). That document which guarantees a 'right' to health care (Article 24). That document which guarantees a 'right' to social security (Article 26). That document which guarantees a 'right' to welfare (Article 27). That document which makes education compulsory and socialised (Article 28). That document which forbids life imprisonment or death for a 17 year old murderer (Article 37). Gosh, seems totally unobjectionable to me--or would, anyway, were I a simpering idiot.

Article 38 does forbid the use in the military of those less than fifteen years of age. Considering that more than a few war heroes have been younger than that (look in any history book), and given the known proclivities of boys, that seems a silly restriction. While on the one hand I don't like the idea of 13 year old soldiers in this day and age, OTOH at least one fifteen-year-old cadet from the Virginia Military Institute fought in the Battle of New Market. And of course boys used to become midshipmen at quite an early age (12 or 13, I believe); Admiral Farragut received his commission at 10 and his first command at 12. When it comes to defending one's house and home, it seems to me that any boy large enough to carry a weapon can count himself a man.

Besides, Amnesty International have long since lost their credibility. Instead of campaigning against real human rights violations like political prisoners, they've spent far too much effort opposing the quite reasonable practise of slaying those whose deeds are sufficiently foul. Loathsome lot.

Re:Why hasn't someone told me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear sir, you have made a deflamatory statement concerning Steve Jobs. I request your comments be taken down immediately or legal action will be taken against you. Consider this your first and only warning.

Sweet! No more Zombies

[Capt_Troy]

Can we put these on Zombies so I can keep those bastards out of my house!

oh what a bleak future we live in...?

[rokzy]

this kind of technology, like ALL technology, can be excellent for society if used properly.

I have to agree

[goldspider]

While the usual knee-jerk response is usually "raise your kids to be trustworthy individuals", and that would always happen in a perfect world.

Of course we don't live in a perfect world, and kids don't always do what we want them to. If such behavior becomes a habit, I think any responsible parent would be well within their rights to use such a tool as a means to correct this bad behavior.

Re:I have to agree

[Qeantk]

" While the usual knee-jerk response is usually 'raise your kids to be trustworthy individuals'...." Worked with me, and mainy others here I am sure, and we all live it this imprefect world. it actually isn't knee-jerk, by the way, but something I spent a fair bit of time thinking about. Maybe the attitudes behind "And then, through, trickier I can catch those little buggers lieing to me" might have something to do with the problem itself, eh?

Double standard

[Anonymous Coward]

So let me get this straight. Walmart wants to implement a system for indexing store goods(RFID tags) which is good only up to a foot or so, and suddenly it is the end of civilization as we know it. But Mr. Wozniak wants to implement a system where you can track someone's every movement, and it's a Good Thing(tm)?

Did I miss something here, or is this another Slashdot Geek double standard?

Is it small enough for a cat collar?

[foyle]

With something like this I may finally be able to find out just where it is that the cat goes when he demands to be let out at 4am.

And for only $25, I won't care too much when he loses it.

Good use/Bad Use

[Metroid72]

Good Use: Never wait for a bus in the cold again. Bad Use: Comfirm when your husband is having extra cold ones with the boys Good Use: Ultimate car anti-theft device. Bad Use: No more Hooters escapades when going to MacWorld/TechEd/LinuxWorld Good Use: The new cell-phone add-on enhances 911 emergency service - especially for ill senior citicens. Bad Use: Why is the congressman's dot flashing in the coordinates of the Bunny Ranch? Good Use: Let your wife and daughter roam in the mall while you check the big boy's toys. Bad Use: Hmmm... My husband said he was working late, but why is he at the Motel 8? And Finally! Kobe, take your hands off her, your wife's dot is getting closer.

I told you so!

[Thud457]

See???!!! This is what I've been warning you about, WOZ has finally revealed himself to be THE BEAST DESCRIBED IN REVELATIONS!!!

"Cats and dogs living together in sin! It's in the Bible people, look it up!!!"

Re:I told you so!

[paganizer]

I'm a lot more paranoid than the next guy (who IS out to get me, BTW), but given The Great Woz's history, I would be hard pressed to name someone I would trust MORE at the controls of a big brother type apparatus.
Seriously, if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Donald Trump, etc started something like this, there would be no doubt in ANYONES minds that they had plans to take over the world.
But Woz I can see doing this to keep kids safe, and not allowing the system to be abused.
And no, I hate Mac.

Is this so bad?

[El]

As the proud parent of a 2.5 year old who has just learned how to steal her mom's keys and unlock the deadbolt on the front door so she can wonder off through the neighborhood without permission, I'd have to say that tracking devices are not such a bad idea. Especially since that deadbolt was installed after her slipping out twice, once to be found several blocks away, and once after playing in the neighbor's water feature in 45 degree weather. There are times when you REALLY want to know exactly where your kid is!

Re:Is this so bad?

[Machine9]

I don't know man, but maybe you could watch them?

that's worked pretty well over the millennia...

Re:Is this so bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why they make restraints and leashes. Or just a good spanking would solve it REAL quick ;)

Re:Is this so bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, where are mod points when you need them?

A little common sense goes a long way. I mean, what the hell kind of parent leaves their kid alone long enough that they can get two blocks away? Two blocks is no easy feat for a small child. She must have been unattended for at least 10-15 minutes. Where the hell were the parents?

Re:Is this so bad?

[LoveMuscle]

I dunno. Maybe taking a crap, or taking a shower? Its not physically possible to "check on the kids" every 2 minutes for the next 8 years, and the little guys are faster than you'd think.

I break to take a piss and my nephew (who isn't even walking yet) has managed to get out of the room, clear down the hall, and out the front door.. If you aren't watching them for more that 10 seconds they'd better be locked up somewhere or there gonna get out...

You clearly haven't spend much time around children so, maybe you should STFU..

Re:Is this so bad?

[sabernar]

Damn, I have mod points, but none of the options says "-1 Bad Parent"

Re:Is this so bad?

[rthille]

Learn to pee with the door open...

Re:Is this so bad?

[Gorak]

Dude.

Put a bolt up near the top of the door, where she can't reach it.

Seriously, there are far better solutions to your problem than tagging your daughter like the last member of an endangered species.

Re:Is this so bad?

[El]

Spanking only teaches them not to do stuff while you're watching. Spanking her for leaving the house is actually punishing her for letting herself be found, which is the opposite of the behavior I'm trying to instill in her. I'd rather she respond when I'm searching for her and calling her name, rather than hiding for fear of a spanking.

Re:Is this so bad?

[thebigmacd]

While trying to teach little kids the opposite? I just doesn't make sense, especially to them.

Re:Is this so bad?

[prockcore]

She must have been unattended for at least 10-15 minutes. Where the hell were the parents?

Obviously they were busy making posts on slashdot about how hard it is to keep track of their kids.

Re:Is this so bad?

[/dev/trash]

Calm down, he's gonna get a babysittter once the new Child Tax Welfare^W Credit checks come out this week.

Re:Is this so bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, have you ever even SEEN a human child? Two blocks is nothing for a healthy toddler.

Also, "unattended" for these purposes could be as simple as "looking the other way", or "assuming the kid has gone into the other room for a minute".

If you stare intently at your child, continuously, they will not sneak out and run down the road, but they will also grow up weak and insane. Benign neglect, with intervention only as needed for safety, is much better for all involved.

Re:Is this so bad?

[NetFu]

As a dad with two VERY active sons (2 and 4 years old), and as a dad who has had to take care of those sons ALONE ALL DAY at least one day a week because my wife works 6 days a week, I say BULLSHIT.

You either WATCH your kids or you don't. You either TEACH your kids or you don't. There is NO technological substitute for EITHER of those things, and at least one of those things will pretty much always keep your kid from doing something stupid and/or fatal.

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for people like the original poster. I work with a guy who allowed (through his own negligence) his 2-3 year old son to die in his pool last year. The "cover" was on the pool but someone didn't notice him going out to play near the pool and subsequently slipping under the cover and drowning. Does that mean you get a tracking system like this and come up with an elaborate setup to alarm you when your kids get near the pool??? NO!!! It means you actually fucking watch your kids!!!

People like that don't care enough about the wellbeing of their kids to avoid buying a house with a pool or to refuse to install one in their back yard -- THAT's the bottom line. Now, how this original poster's 2 year old son can POSSIBLY unlock the deadbolt on their front door is beyond me, and I have relatively tall kids (they look like they are 4 and 6 instead of 2 and 4). Then getting 2 blocks away takes time no matter how fast the 2 year old is -- that kid was neglected for a good 10-20 minutes, which is inexcusable.

You can call me sick, but I CARE enough about my sons to take them into the bathroom with me when I'm taking a shit or shower. And, as a side benefit, both of them understand how to take a piss like daddy and how to take a shower like daddy! At that age, keeping them at arm's length ABSOLUTELY ALL the time is the only foolproof way to keep them safe. And it also helps me to keep involved in my kid's lives.

As Americans, we have GOT to stop ignoring this kind of negligence -- it is NOT okay!

IMNSHO, you don't have any kids (as in, your own biological offspring, not adopted kids or kids you babysit -- it's not the same), so you should STFU until you do!

Re:Is this so bad?

[LoveMuscle]

Congradulations. You've managed to spawn. And I call bullshit back.

Not haveing your eye's on your kids for 3 minutes is not neglegence. Leaving the pool cover open IS.

Simple fact though an ALARM WOULD HAVE SAVE YOUR FRIENDS KIDS LIFE.. jackass...

If you're claiming that your kids have never "gotten away" from you.. Your full of shit..

Wow!

[WndrBr3d]

I hope this "WOZNET" revolutionizes the way I live!

Lord knows where I'd be today without my tablet PC's tied into my Blue Tooth enabled home!

This will be a GREAT addition!

What did you expect?

[Anonymous Coward]

Woz is EVIL!!

He founded TWO CORPORATIONS, for crying out loud.

But only if...

[SuperKendall]

Everyone agrees to be part of the global community, which is the nice part. If you think the system is getting to widespread you limit your tags and your base station to not work with any others.

As with any community, there will be pros and cons of being a member. But at least you have a choice.

Privacy...

[__aaklbk2114]

Excuse me, whoever posted this story forgot to add the following line somewhere in the summary:

"The privacy implications here are worrying, and this sets a bad precedent, IMO."

Slashdot editors, please make this correction immediatly.

Damn!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Foiled by technology again! If Bill Gates plants these things on his kids, it will screw up my plans to kidnap his children and profit!!!

Bad Use #4251a

[felonious]

What about tracking an "end users" solid waste from release to water treatment plant to fresh water to Kool Aid? That would really be frightening and interesting at the same time. I'm thirsty so I'm gonna go drink some piss....err...I mean fresh tap water...

Re:I need more coffee...

[CausticWindow]

There are porno networks? Where? And why hasn't anyone told me?

Get real

[nurb432]

Does anything these days get used JUST for good? Its a fieldday on rights and freedoms..

Would be nice, but...... dont hold your breath :)

REAL ULTIMATE RFID TAGS (Sorry)

[wronkiew]

Q: I heard that RFID tags are always abused or mean. What's their problem?

A: Whoever told you that is a total liar. Just like any other tool, RFID tags can be mean OR totally awesome.

Meh?

[Esion Modnar]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, what great value is there in knowing that somebody is within a 1 to 2 mile radius of a base station? If the base station is at the school, say, then the kid could be at school, at a nearby park, at the pool hall around the corner, etc.

Of course, if they're not within that radius, they better be abducted by aliens from the Planet Zog, or they are so grounded!

Easily stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

If your kid circumvents this, just sue him under the DMCA.

Re:Easily stopped

[Phroggy]

DMCA is a copyright law, and only prohibits circumvention of copy control devices - it does not make all circumvention of anything illegal.

Re:Easily stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get invited to many parties, do you?

Re:Easily stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

You're new here, aren't you?

Where's my kid?

[ughhgu6]

Privacy concerns aside, this could be good for two things I can think of.

If the base station is mobile I could let my kid (10 years old) run free in the park and know if he's being abducted.

I can know if my car is being stolen. It's rare that I'm more than a mile or two from my car. Poor man's Lojack.

Re:Where's my kid?

[tdye]

You'd seriously let your kids run free in the park, and feel safer because you'd know if they were being abducted?

Sheesh, man, that's the sort of thing you want to stop BEFORE it happens... knowing about 30 seconds after the kid is gone isn't much more useful than knowing about it 5 minutes after he's gone... you're still gonna spend another 5 minutes running around in circles before you start calling the cops.

Useful for kids who are already headed out of your sight, yes. Useful in situations where keeping them in sight is critical, NO. Your kid is not your car.

Did you know...

[Pinguu]

Steve Wozniak now teaches school children computers?
If you want to know more watch Pirates of silicon valley.

This will be used in the office.

[YllabianBitPipe]

I can see it now. Using this technology, companies will stick a GPS unit on your employee ID card, or fob (that you carry with you all day at work anyhow, to get in and out of the office). Now, they will know if you're at your desk, or if you're spending an inordinate amount of time chatting with your co-workers, playing foosball, or hiding in the bathroom. Plus, when you go out for lunch, they'll not only know how long you're out, but where you've gone... if you're caught interviewing at a competitor's co., watch out! the question is ... will the company have to tell you when they start doing this? Either way, Woz makes money ... I see this being a big hit.

Re:This will be used in the office.

[LemonYellow]

Such a system already exists. The staff in the Cambridge University computer science department have worn tracker badges for years (they were old back in 1994) and could be looked up on the lab's web page.

Never did check how much time they spent in the bathroom, though.

Doom, doom, doom

[krel]

If you're certain that this technology will only tear apart the foundations of society and plunge the world into the iron-fisted world of 1984 style government oppression, and since we know that this technology is bound to be invented sooner or later, then shouldn't we be glad that pure-hearted Woz is the inventor? Maybe Woz will make this technology (which would be invented sooner or later) work for the people rather than against, after all, isn't that was he's famous for?

Implications

[Gnaythan1]

with location being part of the packet information sent through wireless networks... wouldn't p2p applications be able to connect wirelessly to each other without needing to go through any sort of ISP? They'd just have to consult a (relatively) small database to send information to other wireless devices that are "closer" to the designated target.

If all the information (except location) is encrypted, and all devices assisting in switching packets don't log where they actually send the info (for more than a few minutes)... this would paradoxically do wonders for privacy. It'd be hell to troubleshoot lost packets though.

Example: A packet is sent from wireless device "foo" to wireless device "bar", many miles away. It sends a short range (perhaps a mile) signal to every wireless in range... Packet A shows in its header info the location it's trying to reach. The wireless devices that are closer to "foo" send a signal back saying they are relaying, and transfer it another mile closer to "bar"... this goes on till "bar" sends a signal back saying "I got it" reversing tracks... after the devices connect, some algorythm takes place that chooses which connections were most useful, and the next Foo-Bar targets devices that helped out the most in the last relay, to speed things up a bit.

Talk about something that needs PGP immediately.

[ivanmarsh]

This would be a pretty cool thing to have if you could have a reasonable assumption that only trusted sources could locate your tags.

Uh O

[Lord_Dweomer]

I really hope the Head of Loss Prevention at Gillette doesn't read slashdot.

OMG RFID == EVIL TRACKING IS BAD

[n1ywb]

Get a clue: See http://www.aprs.org

All Woz has done is shrunk the size and cost of the transmitters. Woz is the master of shrinking hardware (see the Apple II video and disk controllers, as previously mentioned). I guess I can see the potential for abuse, but my point is that a system like this was inevitable. Hams have been doing it on a slightly different scale for 10 years. Woz just consumerized it. It isn't really NEW, only the price and size is different. Personally I can't fucking WAIT to get some of these so I can FINALLY make my lights turn on when I pull into my driveway, and find my stupid dog when he takes off after deer.

Did you honestly think that NOBODY was ever going to do this and it's Woz that has opened Pandora's box?? NO! It was BOUND to happen. You should be HAPPY that somebody like WOZ is going to be the first to market!

Oh and sure your local stalker could stick one on your car/person/segway, but you could always just check the local tracking net and see if you can see yourself moving around. Or wear a tinfoil hat. Or zap yourself with EMPs occasionally. Or use a 900mhz RF sniffer. Yes they would be EASY to abuse, but it's also EASY to shoot somebody in the fucking face. It DOESN'T happen all the time. You will probably die of cancer or heart desease, not getting shot in the face. People don't shoot people in the face because it's amoral and illegal. Tracking someone without their consent is also amoral and (should be) illegal, and will probably quickly be made illegal if it isn't already. In many cases it would probably alrady fall under the umbrella of the anti-stalking laws that many states have enacted. Nobody should be SCARED of WozNet any more than they are scared of GUNS. They're both just tools. I've heard of people getting mugged with screwdrivers but I'm not scared of screw drivers. Sheesh.

There's a ham band in the 900mhz range, I wonder if these could be modified to run higher power as Part 97 devices...

Woz is the beast!

[Stonent1]

I'll prove it!
W = 23
O = 15
Z = 26
Total = 64
The original Apples used 6502 processors.
Number of years past since his last professional beard trim : 5
We remove the 5 from 6502 and that leaves us with 602.

602 + 64 = 666 !

Re:Woz is the beast!

[Anonymous Coward]

that's actually funny since the original
Apple 1's sold for $666

Crikey!

[foyle]

It sounds like something that crocodile guy on Animal Planet could put to good use.

Seriously though, this sounds great for amateur naturalists. You could do your own tracking of the local animal population (once you get the tags on them, which I'm sure is the hard part).

How about firefighters?

[anthony_dipierro]

I wonder if this could be included on firefighter equipment to track firefighters inside a burning building. How expensive are the receivers? Surely $25/tag isn't too much for a department to spend. But maybe the receiver would cost too much. How well do they work indoors? I'd imagine the GPS part is useless indoors.

Re:How about firefighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

After the Republicans gut everything it is.

who can afford to set up the network?

[alizard]

I think all of us, including the Woz, know the answer to that.

Sounds perfect for Homeland Security funding.

Well, if one is going to sell out, it's reasonable to get the best price one can.

Apparently Wozniak was far more unhappy about not becoming a billionaire like others far less talented in technology than he ever told the press.

I remember looking into an IWM (integrated woz machine) on an Apple II design and seeing a work of engineering art.

Times have changed.

Paranoia thy name is siskbc

[Llywelyn]

"...that's obscenely naive. So what's stopping me from putting one on your car and knowing everywhere you go? What if your wife does it? What if your boss does it? See, there's nothing at all that implies consent here. "

The technology for this has been available for years, to the general public, just not in quite this nice or unified a form.

I'm sure the tech isn't far behind to scan for these little bugs, so why worry?

After all, big brother is watching, so there's no need to panic ;-)

Totally different things

[SuperKendall]

RFID tags are simply a passive device that anyone can query where and what they are (though of course the devices themselves know nothing about location, that would have to be inferred by the sensors or other processing).

From the reading, wOz chips are intelligent devices that know where they are (remember they are built with a cheap GPS core) - and will only tell selected base stations. Thus only YOU know where or what something is, and have the option to let others know as well (as when linking base stations, there probably is some mechanism to pass around keys to let other base stations ask devices where they are). Even then only YOU know WHAT something is - because you are the one putting the tags on.

It's a difference of dumb and pervasive vs. smart and targeted.

What If: This wasn't by the Woz

[greygent]

blahblah privacy blahblah outrage blahblah big brother blahblah i copyrighted my location, this is a violation of my IP rights blahblah DMCA.

Oh, it's the Woz? Ok.

Way to go Woz!

[ravenousbugblatter]

Great way to kick off the era of zero privacy...Woz might as well go work for Micro$oft.

Starting 'em early...

[MoggyMania]

Consider this... People tend to accept aspects of life that were standard when they were children, and oarents are going to buy these WozNet tags to track their kids. In another 10-15 years, when said children have grown up enough to influence the way the USA is run, unlike us they will be totally comfortable with the idea of having zero privacy and their every move tracked -- because that's the way it will have been since they were kids. It's not huge government mandates that people should be wary of, but the average civilian being "eased into" being comfortable with things that those in power can then quietly subvert to their own ends.

GPS (in)accuracy/signal strength makes it useless

[SuperBanana]

I would really like a nice small tag for my car keys...

And since anything denser than medium treecover pretty much hoses GPS(most roofs will kill GPS entirely), it'd be useless.

Oh, not to mention, even with satellite differential(WAAS), you still only get 3 meters accuracy(roughly). That means it would tell you the keys are in your living room...but not WHERE in the living room.

Track really important things

[reboot246]

"will be able to generate alerts, notifying the owner by phone or e-mail message when a child arrives at school, a dog leaves the yard or a car leaves the parking lot."

Or Woz when he crashes his Segway and can't get up.

yer sig:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it." --

Are you advocating *BSD, sir?!!!

Re:yer sig:

[siskbc]

"Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it."

Are you advocating *BSD, sir?!!!

Allright: "Ford, you're turning into a daemon. Stop it."

But....

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Apple come out with that anti-1984 commercial long ago? What's going on here....doublespeak? ;)

It's stalking time!

[cryptochrome]

I predict a large market for WozNet Tag detectors amongst thieves, the unjustifiedly paranoid, and the justifiedly paranoid (why won't that creepy guy/girl leave me alone?)

Of course if you should happen to find an unrequested WozTag, you get the fun of calling the cops to help you trap your tracker.

Is there any way to tell whose tag it is, and to find the intended reciever built into the system?

strange days

[Down8]

It's a strange day when one of the pioneering hippies of computerdom is acting as an enabler for Big Brother.

Think different, indeed.

-bZj

Re:strange days

[smack_attack]

The message is: "sell out, cash in". It's the latest fad in the high-tech totalitarian society. Freedom is so passe anyways.

Owners of children will love them!

[Anonymous Coward]

::::
tags within a 1- or 2-mile radius of a base station. The tags "will be able to generate alerts, notifying the >>owner>child

The real question you should ask is...

[precogpunk]

Will it let me write a program like this?

if ( dog.position

It's not about the hardware it's about the software.

Re:The real question you should ask is...

[Bingo Foo]

Close your , please.

Here is what I want to know.

[mcc]

Given this whole wireless thing, how difficult would it be to rig a device that just checks to see how many WozNet devices there are in the immediate area-- say, 10 feet-- and where they are?

That way paranoids or children could just scan their cars/backpacks/whatever for WozNet trackers, and if they find one present, they can pinpoint its location for removal.

I wondered the same thing about RFID tags-- i wouldn't care at all about the privacy problems if once i'd bought it i could take it home and use some handscan device to scan to see where the RFID is, then barrage it with microwaves or something until it stops responding.

However, I am pretty sure with RFID that there's no way an RFID could be designed such that it would have any choice but to broadcast its presence-- it just discharges energy collected from radio waves, so it seems like there's no way you could tag something with an RFID such that the purchaser would be unable to find the RFID just by sending out hellos on low-frequency radio, but the tagger can talk to the RFID by sending out a secret code or something. Right?

I don't know if the same applies to WozNet. They haven't really given much information on how these devices work and talk to each other. Is there info somewhere on how they communicate? Would just rigging something up to a laptop that universally identifies what all the nearby woznet devices are be easy? I don't see anything on their site that would indicate either way...

The real question you should ask is...

[precogpunk]

Will it let me write a program like this?

if ( dog.position <= (electric_fence.position + 1")){ electric_fence.power=on; }

It's not about the hardware it's about the software.

Paranoid, yes, but for a reason

[siskbc]

he technology for this has been available for years, to the general public, just not in quite this nice or unified a form.

Or this cheap. Or (presumably) this widely marketed. I guarantee, this will increase the incidence of such stalking a lot.

I'm sure the tech isn't far behind to scan for these little bugs, so why worry?

Two reasons. First, you don't check if you don't suspect - rear-view mirrors have been around for decades, but it's still easy to tail someone if they're not expecting you. Second, there are also problems for non-technophiles - are we to tell, say, a woman whose ex-husband tracks her down and attacks her that the technology was available and she should have had it? You'd have to have complete market penetration of the bug-scanners to counteract, combined with education, and that would never happen.

So I'd say this was inevitable, but it's still scary. I'm paranoid, and reasonably tech-savvy, but I'm still afraid I'd get tracked by someone I didn't want doing it.

This could be fun in college dorms!

[Photo_Designer]

Imagine a bunch of college students (like myself) getting a bunch of these things and putting them up in the dorms. Everthing on campus is in the 1-2 mile range. And I thought AIM kept everybody connected in the dorms. Imagine being able to have a "buddy list" that showed where your friends were physically. Now this would all be voluntary just like AIM, you can let only certain people track you.From my exerience college students don't give a crap about privacy if they can get their hands on cool new technology. Colleges seem to always be a hotbed for cool emerging technology (napster anyone). I can imagine a whole group of students buying there $25 tag and getting online and having things like "how long person X was within X feet of person Y" you could get rumors going and see who is "hanging around" who and for how long. I know it will happen. I could definatly see colleges hiding these in valuable euipment (like digital projectors, computers, LAPTOPS!) My school alone had over $60,000 worth of equipment stolen including 12 digital projectors) How about at work, I know at my work we carry keycards to let us into the building, depending on how big these tags have to be I can see companies integrating these with a keycard. I mean they already log when you come in and go out. The other cool use I could see for this was as an add-on for yout iPod, you could set it up to play certain songs in certain areas of the city (assuming the network would grow to cover a city.) Also it could be used for film making where cetain music or sound effects (or special effects for that matter)would be set off when an actor reached a cetain place.(Depending on how acurate these are) Also, no more garage door opener, it will open when your car gets so close to it. The "cool" uses for this thing are awesome. Sure it'll be used for evil but what isn't these days.
-Chip Youngchild

Re:This could be fun in college dorms!

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine being able to have a "buddy list" that showed where your friends were physically. Now this would all be voluntary just like AIM

Kinda like this: www.BuddyMap.com.

Re:This could be fun in college dorms!

[Photo_Designer]

yeah, i guess something like that, only a real product.

Sounds Cool

[Dunkalis]

A lot of people seem to think of the possible abuses for this technology. I can see the abuses, but I like people knowing where I am. Why? Because I like knowing exactly where I am, and if others know exactly where I am, big deal. Its not like I'm a target for crime, and the chances of the gov't wanting to know where I am is probably less than my chance of being eaten by a shark while being struck by lightning. As long as it has an off switch for when I DON'T want people to know where I am.

I am all for the widespread use of such technology, as long as its not abused. I can think of thousands of good uses for this, RFIDs, and similar things.

Interesting times we live in.

The first apple computer sold for $666.00

[Mayak]

And the logo is an Apple with a bite out of it - hence the original sin. No doubt something is wrong with this guy when he now wants a little warm-up for the Mark of the Beast (otherwise known as the New World Order.)

They could be hide-able

[siskbc]

Given this whole wireless thing, how difficult would it be to rig a device that just checks to see how many WozNet devices there are in the immediate area-- say, 10 feet-- and where they are? That way paranoids or children could just scan their cars/backpacks/whatever for WozNet trackers, and if they find one present, they can pinpoint its location for removal.

I was wondering that too - it won't be retarded easy simply because I assume it will operate on unlicensed bands along with, for example, your garage door opener. But assuming the device you built was smart, I could envision it decoding packets or something to see if it was a Woz device. That assumes you get it to send you a packet, which leads to...

However, I am pretty sure with RFID that there's no way an RFID could be designed such that it would have any choice but to broadcast its presence-- it just discharges energy collected from radio waves, so it seems like there's no way you could tag something with an RFID such that the purchaser would be unable to find the RFID just by sending out hellos on low-frequency radio, but the tagger can talk to the RFID by sending out a secret code or something. Right?

I'm not so sure, actually. The last thing you want is the confusion of seeing everyone else's Woz devices, so (of course) each will broadcast its unique ID. However, you also don't want just anyone to interrogate your Woz devices - so I bet you'd have to broadcast some sort of code, it processes the signal, recognizes it, pings back. I see a one way hash here, but I could be wrong.

But ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if these things are made to *not* respond to a general sweep, at least in part to make searching them out impossible. ;)

The "Times" lives up to its name...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone else notice that the only "related article" listed is over 6 years old?

Clarification

[El]

1) The double locking deadbolt was installed immediately after the first incident. The second occured when my wife failed to lock it ("You mean, it doesn't lock itself when you close the door?")
2) Both incidents occured while I was at work. (And I assure you, you don't know what helpless frustration is until you get a call from your wife telling you in panic mode that the baby is missing -- and you're an hour away from home!)
3) All those people saying "bad parenting" have obviously never been responsible for watching small children 24/7. They're also obviously not familiar with my child! She is extremely agile and athletic, and could cover a couple blocks in less than a minute (I've already taken her out running for about 2 miles. Her run == my fast walk). My wife works nights as a nurse, and has to shower, go to the bathroom, clean house, cook, and do laundry all while watching the baby. I myself tend to not do anything else while watching her, so she gets into far less trouble on my watch. I have also taken pains to make introduce her to everyone in the neighborhood and make sure they know where she lives, so that they can return her.
4) Humans as a species have survived for millions of years despite not making a full-time job out of watching the kids -- perhaps most kids are better at taking care of themselves than we give them credit for.

Re:Clarification

[marko123]

Thank you for not feeding the "bad parent" trolls. 24/7 parenting get discussed in threads from time to time. When I was a kid (about 4-7), Mum and Dad used to let me play unsupervised in a tip. It was cool fun, and I never even considered what I was climbing over. I supposed they figured that it was enough that I had my tetanus shots up to date. Anyway, this was before bike helmets were made law, too. I do wonder whether mediafear/advertising/greedcorps are driving parents to unnecessarily protect their children with _products_. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be the parent who shunned these things, and then lose my child, only to be told I wouldn't have if I had purchased X. Arrrgh! I feel for you.

How cool... now, all they have to do

[iceT]

is combine this with RFID tags, and it'll be like 1984, for real!

Why not use both?

[leeet]

Actually, I think both technology could merge together. One to track moving items and would require a more expensive tracking device and one to track cheap items but that are a PITA to replace. The 2nd items could use RFID's to get tracked.

That way, you know if you kid is at school and the school knows if un-checked books (or whatever they want to "Scan") are taken outside a perimeter.

Looking in the DB, they can even pinpoint the exact number of kids who left the perimeter at that time and this would help pinpoint the student. After 2 or 3 alerts, they can easily poinpoint the culprit.

WozNet becomes self-aware and we lose everything

[Johnny Mozzarella]

Sounds like the makings of a bad Sci-Fi movie.

there's already technology for that problem

[BreadMan]

Get one of of those cheap latches, mount it 12 inches from the TOP of the door. The kids can't figure out how to make stable tower high enough to reach the latch. Problem solved for about $1.50.

I have three small children^W escape artists and this stops them cold.

And no posts about how terrible a parent this person is, kids wait until you're in the bathroom to pull these stunts off.

Re:there's already technology for that problem

[tdye]

Here in Ireland, the doors lock from both sides and my kids have been doing the opposite.. lock the door from the inside with my keys, then shove them through the mail slot. Now I can't leave the key in the door, which worries me because I'd rather not have to look for my keys in the event the place catches fire.

It has everything to do with Apple.

[Johnny Mozzarella]

Most of the management are Ex-Apple employees.

CEO = Woz
COO = Rich Rifredi
Marketing = Gina Clark
Product Development = Frank Canova

Re:It has everything to do with Apple.

[LafinJack]

Your point? It still has nothing to do with Apple.

Re:It has everything to do with Apple.

[squiggleslash]

Woz isn't an ex-employee, he's still employed by them. He just doesn't work for them any more.

People, have you read the article?

[leeet]

I see replies about total information crap and such. It clearly states that the devices will only work a couple of miles maximum from the "mother base".

I think this rocks. For the corporate world, I see every employee having one. Ever tried to locate someone when you are in a hurry? They are never at their desk. This could automatically open doors when approaching them, etc.

And when you go home, you switch to your personal tag. Your employer can't see you anyway as you'll probably be more than 1 mile from your workplace.

Cities could have nets where you can hop in and see where your kids/favorite member of your familly are.

I think that if you're not trying to hide anything fron anyone then what do you have to worry about people knowing where you are?

Think of it as some sort of "Physical ICQ". I've been dreaming for something like that for a long time.

Its a matter of slow acceptance

[nurb432]

Once you accept monitoring of your child on your own, it is a small step to allow the goverment to monitor them for their safety.

Then one more step to montor the bad people.. then monitor the good people, to keep them safe.... .

Few people give up rights in one lump, so the plan is incremental steps.. until you have it all and by the time the people notice.. its too late..... ( history has proven this many times.. )

( scary thing is i agree its ok for ME to monitor my child.. but again, its the sliperly slope of acceptance that im concerned about. )

WIA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's clear what the next step must be: WIA - Woz Information Awareness

Dude? Where's my bong?

[Johnny Mozzarella]

The original concept for WozNet was hatched way back in 1978 when Steve Jobs asked Woz "Dude? Where's my bong?" The "Personal Computer" was just a small side project for the Woz until he was ready to launch his true brainchild.

Woz needs to get over Woz

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, really.

Steve Jobs has a widely acknowledged ego the size of Jupiter, but even he hasn't named a company after himself with a silly acronym as cover.

Re:Some suggestions for the Linux community

[someguy42]

Someone tell me why this was modded Funny instead of Offtopic? C'mon, mods, think before you moderate. And read the rest of the discussion before you mod offtopic crap up as Funny, Insightful, or Informative.

Tiger could use golf balls with this technology

[Curious__George]

(On the first hole of this past week's British Open, Tiger Woods lost the ball from his tee shot.) He ended up losing by two strokes.
ESPN says:

Of all the aspects that amaze about Tiger Woods' lost tee ball on the first hole of the championship, the one that fascinated me most was that his playing partner, Sergio Garcia, ostensibly, was helping him search.

Yeah. Right. And Saddam Hussein is currently helping the search for weapons of mass destruction.

As charades go, this scene was right up there with Bruno Kirby shouting out, "Baby fish mouth" in "When Harry Met Sally."

In fact, Sergio may damn well have found that ball, and then done what Judge Smails would have done to Al Cverik's ball in the rough -- driven it so far into the shaggy brush of Kent with his foot, its next stop was the core of the planet.

When the marshal eventually found Tiger's ball 30 minutes later, I wanted to do a quick forensics test to see if there was any Adidas golf shoe residue on that bad boy.

Considering Tiger missed the playoff at the Open by two shots, Ben Curtis might owe Sergio's foot 10 percent of that check.

Stop freaking out

[naner42]

Many of you are riled up because it'll be used to track kids, whether they like it or not. IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE PUTTING THESE THINGS IN A SUPPOSITORY COATED WITH SUPER GLUE AND ASKING OUR KIDS TO PICK UP THE SOAP! It's a removable device, not a subdermal implant.
This would be great for backpacks, lunch boxes, etc. I used to leave my backpack in the library all the time then freak out. This has great aplications for college and high school campuses.
Just like every other technology out there, it's got good and bad uses. You can argue which side outweighs the other until the cows come home but it won't do any good. If you like the idea: BUY IT. If you don't, spend your money on an aluminum foil leotard.
And just like any other tracking device, you'll be able to find a "bug finder." If you think your ex-wife put one on your car, scan your car or take it to the local "Paranoia-Is-Us" and have them do it. Same thing for your underwear drawer or your red swingline stapler.
For every technology invented, there will be counter-measures created and distributed.

Its how you use it

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing some of the comments above, I'm a bit sad to see we can't all note the difference between a technology and the possible applications of it; basically a category error in thinking. Theres nothing inherently bad about microphones and video cameras; unwanted surveillance on the other hand is something else entirely.

The fact that Wozniak is behind it is largely irrelevant (how is it an Apple story anyway?); God save us all from people's cribbed comments on the efficiency of Apple hardware. I fail to believe there are this many hardware experts who went through schematics of computers, in some cases, that were on the scrap heap before they were even born. Its polite to give a citation when stealing other people's words and sentiments.

So.. I'm a bad boy..

[bigattichouse]

I get "tagged" by my parents... its not making sure *I* get to school.. just that my tag does.. so I pay (or bully) someone to take the thing to school for me.

CTAR (Canine Tracking And Retaliation)

[AvantLegion]

I don't want something telling me the dog has left the yard. I want something to tell me when other dogs enter the yard.

"ALERT! Unidentified canine has penetrated the perimeter and may be en route to defecate. Shall the system defenses intercept? Y/N"

*zap* yipe yipe yipe!

To state the obvious

[ralphclark]

There *are* children who are not old enough or not mature enough yet to be trusted with something as important as, say, their own safety. All children belong to this group until they grow up sufficiently. Looks like you yourself haven't quite got there yet, doesn't it. And they still let you have children?

So?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tagged my parents.

How workable is this?

[grasshoppah]

It seems to me, although I'm no expert, that the environment these will be used in contains quite a few variables that could inhibit their usefullness. For example, many things act as faraday cages, such as the system of supports in some buildings or the sculptures on the ceiling of my school's library. Wander into one of these zones and your child/wallet/x-men collectors issue #1 will become invisable. Also, to what extent would these tags be resistant to microwaves, electical dischages, water, etc. Some careful thought may need to be given to their placement.

welcome to the future shit nag poopoopee doo

[iradik]

there's going to be a lot of stuff in the future that causes problems. that's what the future is; a big problem. pupubatoo. so woz is creating problems as he's solving other problems. that's what solving problems really is really about too: creating new problems. so go make some problems.

so does this thing use 2.4Ghz band?

[Anonymous Coward]

If so - my neighboorhood 2.4Ghz WIFI is going to jam this thing

Wozniak and Gibson

[TygerFish]

The debate that arises from Steven Wozniak's company and its innovation is nothing new and neither are the debates surrounding it. The potential convenience applications that the device offers are swallowed up and ignored in the face of the device's obvious potential for applications in security and surveillance.

The most intriguing aspect of all the back-and-forth in the debate is that it is not demonstrable that either side is wrong. What the article in the Times shows is only the prototype of a short-range locator device with the potential for information transfer.

As an examination of William Gibson's work reveals, the problem is one of increasing efficiency and efficacy in that as the technologies behind the technology become more sophisticated--as the devices become smaller and achieve greater range, information-transfer potential and ubiquity--their potential usefulness and their potential for danger can only increase.

William Gibson's main perception in one of his least-enjoyable stories, 'The Gernsbach Continuum,' contains the central idea of his one of his most important themes: 'the street finds it's own uses for things.'

Gibson's greatest perceptions is that technical innovations in the use and shaping of society in unpredictable ways that the creators of the technology can't foresee and can't consider as the humble telephone pager illustrates.

Originally, the pager allowed busy people to whom other people needed access to get out of their offices and hospitals. It freed doctors and lawyers to either live more life or get more done. The unpredictable, socially transformative downside of the technology entered into the equation the moment it became available to the masses.

Among the many changes that the spread of pager technology made was that it made drug-dealers a lot safer and set the police new problems: instead of having to stay in one place where they and their contacts could be subject to observation or chained to specific telephone landlines that could be tapped by law-enforcement agencies, the pager cut the link between the drug-dealer and his territory and allowed street-level dealers to arrange meetings with their clients in locations of their own choosing.

This phenomenon was the source of a small but very real transformation in society as the rise of cheap pagers changed things. A block of Motorola circuitry in a casing, changed society; it changed the notion of presence and absence and leisure time and physical distance. It changed the law and investigative procedure, the notion of privacy and tens of other things that no one had any tiniest inkling might spring up from using radio receivers attached to a POTs telephone system to transmit phone numbers.

As it concerns the debate here, it is easy to see that the notes talking about pedophiles are actually a valid cause of concern as are a thousand other things that are just as wonderful as the police's finding a lost child and just as dangerous as a pedophile's doing the same that we'll just have to wait for.

Re:GPS (in)accuracy/signal strength makes it usele

[ArsonSmith]

That is still good information when your not sure where you left them. It might be enough to tell you they are out in your car or at work or close to what side of the house. Usually if I lose my keys (twice now in my 30 years of life although because I say this I'm sure it will happen again soon and regular) I wanted to know if there was any use of my looking in the hotel room or did I drop them on the Las Vegas strip somewhere. They were found later in the camera bag. I surely don't remember putting them there. The other time we decided they were most likely stolen due to a laser pointer that was on them. sure would have been nice then.

compromise, compromise

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the ideal system would have to have a few protections.

The device won't tell you where your kids are unless
a) they're outside some reasonable physical boundary
b) they're a certain allowance past curfew without calling

The device wouldn't work unless the parent and the young adult enter codes agreeing to this.

If it's seen as a "in case you get carjacked or get a flat where there's no cell reception" situation, I can imagine reasonable kids agreeing to it.

And if your kids aren't reasonable, that's YOUR fault for betraying their trust earlier!

You never will know...

[blair1q]

...which side will be the one to give birth to Big Brother...

Keep your pimp hand strong with WozNet!!!

[crazyhorse44]

Imagine the possibilities for pimps:

monitor all your hos... know when they're working it and when you need to go put the smack down. plus you can tell how many cars they got in and how much they need to be coughing up once you roll past in your Caddy.

If Slashdot decided the fate of technology:

[TALlama]

No more email, because people can spam you!

No more cars, because crooks could get away from bank heists!

No more pencils, because bad people might write naughty words.

You guys are applying the DMCA mindset: if it could be used for ill, it will be, so all uses should be illegal.

Let the technology out, and let the world decide how it can be used. If it's being abused, stop the abuse. If it's helping mankind (or just parents and dogowners), it's one little part of our lives that's a little better.

But please, don't paint everything with a mile-wide brush.

MOD PARENT UP

[Nutrimentia]

Good points there.

It also seems that quite plausible that parents would become even MORE inattentive what their little ones are doing if they had a tag like this on. These tags only give locations, not descriptions of sticking screwdrivers in sockets, eating bleach, drowning in the backyard, etc.

Re:This tweak makes OS X twice as fast.

[ComaVN]

Connection to host lost

freedom at what cost?

[koekepeer]

[quote]
One thing that occurs to me is that with location tags I could give my kids more freedom than they currently have, etc etc
[/quote]
more freedom? define freedom for me please. you are actually substituting 'degrees of freedom to move around in the neighbourhood' with 'freedom'. really two completely different things.

anyways, i see the argument going back and forth here, and nobody is listening. the arguments about this RFID Woznet thinghy are better built when viewing the subject with a little more detachment.

now you people are just discussing where you think the balance lies between controlling kids and letting them explore themselves. depending on the age of the kid, and it's maturity (not necc. coupled to age :) ), i can agree with the both of you. whether it's ethical to use a tracking system on a person... it's more difficult than the topic you discuss.

about your .sig by-the-way
[quote]
A young idea is a beautiful and a fragile thing. Attack people, not ideas.
[/quote]
that's the most ridiculous idea i ever read in my life! ;) but seriously, attacking people is a big nono in communication!

just my opinion of course

Re:freedom at what cost?

[swillden]

more freedom? define freedom for me please. you are actually substituting 'degrees of freedom to move around in the neighbourhood' with 'freedom'. really two completely different things.

Freedom means a host of different things, depending on context. You correctly interpreted the meaning in that part of my post, so I don't see why you need definitions.

now you people are just discussing where you think the balance lies between controlling kids and letting them explore themselves. depending on the age of the kid, and it's maturity (not necc. coupled to age :) ), i can agree with the both of you. whether it's ethical to use a tracking system on a person... it's more difficult than the topic you discuss.

So do you agree, or not? Unless you don't consider children to be people, you're contradicting yourself. Anyway, please expound on the difficulties, because as a tool for parents to keep track of children, I don't see any ethical issues at all. I do see plenty of potential practical problems and even some dangers but no ethical dilemmas at all.

If you want to track adults, or other people's children, and you want to do it without their permission, then there are plenty of ethical issues to explore. In general, it's wrong, but I can see plenty of use for court-ordered exceptions, for example.

that's the most ridiculous idea i ever read in my life! ;) but seriously, attacking people is a big nono in communication!

Very perspicacious. I'm glad to see you agree with me. Most people do when they see the issue stated so baldly.

Re:freedom at what cost?

[koekepeer]

i agree, and i don't agree. as stated. does it really matter?

i am aware that you point-of-view supports the idea that ethics are not involved when a kid is young. but what is young? and about ethics anyway: i am sure that you will think twice about how, and to which extent you will track your kid. if those thoughts are not ethical in nature, i don't know what is...

i do disagree with you, not violently, but nonetheless i do. i will not track my children. but it's a personal choice i guess.

i just get very tired of parents trying to control their childerns' every move. you just can't. and you probably don't want to, since you'll be worried sick all the time.

let's agree to disagree :) i bet both of our children are likely to have a long and prosperous life (at least i hope so)

best wishes

Re:freedom at what cost?

[swillden]

i am sure that you will think twice about how, and to which extent you will track your kid. if those thoughts are not ethical in nature, i don't know what is...

No, those thoughts aren't ethical at all in nature. Those thoughts are 100% practical. I don't think there is a thing *wrong* with me tracking my children at all times until they become of age and are no longer my responsibility. However, at some point, and with some children, such tracking may become not only unnecessary, but counterproductive. Unnecessary because the child has demonstrated that they don't need to be tracked and counterproductive because it can be construed as demonstrating a lack of trust which the child feels they have earned.

The question isn't "is this right or wrong?", the question is "does this serve my purpose?". Said purpose, of course, is turning children into responsible, moral adults.

i will not track my children. but it's a personal choice i guess.

You say this now. We'll see what you think the first time your toddler disappears and you're frantically searching the streets while your spouse is at home calling all of the neighbors and 911.

i just get very tired of parents trying to control their childerns' every move. you just can't.

Of course not. But parents *can* and *should* control far more than the kids want to be controlled. I remember when I was in jr. high and high school, and almost everyone complained that their parents were too restrictive. I certainly thought mine were. However, it's instructive to go to your HS reunions and look for correlations between your peers' parents' level of permissiveness and your peers' subsequent lives. It can be overdone, of course, a very authoritarian stance is also bad, but it's nearly certain that if your kids aren't chomping at the bit, testing the limits, you need to tighten down (depends on the child's personality, however).

and you probably don't want to, since you'll be worried sick all the time.

Eh? How is not knowing where your kids are or what they're doing going to make you worry less? Keeping tabs on them is the way you *reduce* your worry and stress.

let's agree to disagree :)

I fully expect you to change your mind. Not now, and not because of my words, but because of your own experiences.

i bet both of our children are likely to have a long and prosperous life

That's really hard to say. No matter what you do, there is a chance that your children won't have the life you'd like them to. All you can do is try to improve the odds, give them the best shot you can, but they ultimately make their own decisions.

Harvey Danger

[Cackmobile]

Paranoia, Paranoia Everybodies coming to get me!

What is with people these days. The world is not a worse place than it was 20 years ago. All the same things happened. Its just that they are more widely reported. Instead of using systems like this people should be training their children to use common sense. I never had a problem when I was young and I walked 1km to and from school from when I was 6 years old. I used things like safety in numbers, sticking to main roads etc.

Finally...

[Anonymous Coward]

...someone comes up with a system that allows a "find" command for the objects in my office, and everyone complains....

Good to get stolen stuff back.

[mcdade]

I would want this to stick on expensive items like my computer or palm, so the next time my house or car get broken into, it can track where the items are.. i could just sent the police to go retreive them for me!

that is true progress.

Woah

[luekj]

Wozniak is amazing.

He was even on TechTV once.

It was great.

That he was on TechTV once.

Wozniak is a great and interesting person.

Woz

Woz

Wooooah Woz!

Re:I need more coffee...

[tkarr]

*takes out her bazooka and aims it*