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Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband
dwm writes "Think
broadband over power lines (BPL) would be wonderful? There might be some collateral damage. The American Radio Relay League (your friendly neighborhood ham radio operators) have documented dramatic HF radio interference in areas where BPL is being tested (Check out the video of actual interference)."
That is one of the best ways to slashdot a site!! haha Very good technique grasshopper, but you are no match for my slashdot skill!!!
Slashdot.. Land of nerds, trolls, and FlameBait..
They should just ditch those radios and move on to VoIP. ;)
--- I w00t, therefore I'm l33t.
Way to go hams!! Lets sacrifice modern and accessable communication in favor of bouncing radio waves off the atmosphere!
How many people still rely on ham radio? Why havent they moved over to something a little more modern? Does ham radio have any advantages over current technology?
I'm sure the hams wouldn't mind so much if they realized how much free porn they could get with powerline broadband.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
ever since this "internet" thing came along I havn't found a use for using my license. Lets make an agreement that the powerline internet gets shut down on field day, cause thats kinda fun.
*eyes widen*...But there hasn't been any link beetween powerline internet and 802.11 performance has there?
With the internet giving worldwide communication and stable voice transmission at your fingertips, why would anyone use ham radio? I think sacrificing the use of an old and tired medium is worth it to bring broadband to more people.
And don't say ham radio would be useful in some sort of natural disaster, seeing as the internet WAS designed to withstand a nuclear attack!
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
...Something tells me this site is gunna go down, so here's the text of the article:
NEWINGTON, CT, Aug 6, 2003--ARRL President Jim Haynie, W5JBP, says Broadband over Power Line (BPL)--if widely deployed--would represent "spectrum pollution" on a level that is "difficult to imagine." Haynie reacted after seeing videotape and early data from recent ARRL field studies in four states where BPL is undergoing testing.
"BPL is the most crucial issue facing Amateur Radio and the one that has the most devastating potential," Haynie said. In terms of interference potential on HF and low-VHF frequencies, "nothing is on the same scale as BPL."
A form of power line carrier (PLC) technology, BPL would use existing low and medium-voltage power lines to deliver broadband services to homes and businesses. Because it uses frequencies between 2 and 80 MHz, BPL could affect HF and low-VHF amateur allocations wherever it's deployed. BPL proponents--primarily electric power utilities--already are testing BPL systems in several markets, and one reportedly is already offering the service. FCC rules already allow BPL, although industry proponents want the FCC to relax radiation limits. It's feared such a change could exacerbate BPL's interference potential.
At the West Gulf Division Convention (Austin Summerfest 2003) August 1-2 in Austin, Texas, Haynie previewed a short video (see below) that covers highlights of a recent field tour by ARRL Lab Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI. The video, which will complement technical data ARRL is gathering and compiling, turned out to be a real eye-opener for many in the audience.
Walt Dubose, K5YFW--assistant chairman of the ARRL High Speed Multimedia (HSMM) Working Group--said it was about what he'd expected. "But for most attending--maybe 60 percent--it was much worse than they had imagined, and for some it was a real shocker," he reported. Dubose said a few of those viewing the video simply couldn't believe that BPL actually was causing the high noise level.
In late July, Hare traveled some 1350 miles to visit BPL trial communities in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania and New York to take measurements over significant parts of the HF spectrum. He also took initial readings at low-VHF frequencies. Driving a specially equipped vehicle loaded with radio gear and measurement devices, Hare said he didn't need to look long or track down "a few hot spots" to find BPL interference. "The signals were all over," he said.
"The interference found ranged from moderate to extremely strong," Hare said. The video shows the S meter of an HF transceiver holding steady in excess of S9 as the speaker emits a crackling din, which one observer described as sounding like a Geiger counter. Only the very strongest amateur signals broke through on 20 and 15 meters. Hare noted that the field strengths of the various systems all were within FCC Part 15 limits for power line carrier (PLC) devices.
At a couple of points, the video shows noise continuing nearly unabated on 15 and 20 meters as the car moves down long streets lined with overhead wiring. Hare said the signal propagated for at least a couple of miles down one road.
"Signals would have been much stronger using a gain antenna," he observed. Hare's vehicle carried a roof-mounted, horizontally polarized Buddi-Pole antenna--a loaded dipole.
Each BPL system exhibited a unique sound depending upon the modulation scheme it used, and Hare said he was able to distinguish three types during his recent tour. While in most cases, the signal sounded like static or pulse noise, in one city, it resembled sort of interference a computer monitor or similar device might generate, with warbling "birdies" blanketing the bands at closely spaced intervals. "Naturally, overhead wiring was the worst," Hare said. BPL signals continued to be audible in neighborhoods with underground electrical utility wiring, although it was somewhat attenuated.
The ARRL already has filed a 120-page package of text and technical exhibits
Did nobody tell the power companies that power lines are like a really big antenna (not well tuned mind) and that sending data at radio frequencies was going to cause interference with radio. Can't figure out why nobody saw that coming.
The fatal mistake of linking to a video has been made.
BTW, that's some serious interference in the video!
I can see that video getting hammered.
I'm grabbing a copy here
Get your own free personal location tracker
I have had problems with HAM radio operators coming in on my home speakers (when they are not even hooked up). So i guess this is fair. Some (not all) overpower thier rigs, so bleeding into their spectrum would seem fair. Turn around is fair play you know :)
. I love the sound of burning women and screaming rubber....
We know what you're using that antenna for. You're a sick, sick man.
boofreakinghoo
this is worse than coal train companies complaining about the DOT paving roads over railroad tracks.
I'm a HAM radio oprator. It bothers me that some pople don't see anyting wrong with creating interference on already allocated radio waves. What if the same companies started to interfere with WiFi bands ? How would you react ?
I punched a baby once.
The movie site is pretty slow, so I mirrored it: BPL_Trial-small.mpg
by the amateur radio community is that this internet signal is transmitted through the electrical lines at frequencies from 2Mhz to 80Mhz - 80 through 6 meters. Studies have shown that, at the power levels suggested by the power companies along with the transmission lines acting like very large antennas, the typical amateur operator with have an estimated 33.7db to 65.4db of additional ambient noise to contend with, and would obviously ruin ham radio.
"Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband"
All ten of them?
Would it be a huge problem for Slashdot to download the video first and then put up a bittorrent link for the file? Really -- any video link posted in a story immediately goes down due to mega-traffic.
Thoughts?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
That already got broadband over powerlines and the people living close to them?
The technology is in use in Sweden and Germany plus other places, anyone from there that got it that can give us some feedback this?
But.. but... why HAM and antenna... shouldn't HAM go with the icon of the previous story?
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Well yes. If this BPL stuff is causing harmful interference, I will not 100% be for the use of it - Partly because I am a ham op myself.
That said, BPL does seem like a promising technology. This way, the electrical utlity can also sell internet, allowing the consumer to benefit from market competition.
For me, I see HAM radio's biggest benefit to society being when disasters strike and nothing works (phone, cell phone, etc) HAM ops are able to get communication going and assist emergency response efforts.
Now, if this BPL is causing HF interference, thats OK! after all, in the event of an emergency and the power is out, NO HF noise caused by BPL!
-Grump.
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
The moment that a script kiddie releases an exploit that takes advantage of the combination (broadband over power line).
I am sure it will bring a new meaning to the flying toasters...
Blast it! Power line broadband is my only hope of ever getting high speed internet.
Oh goodie, they're going to splatter all over the low TV channels and the first harmonics will trash the VHF band as well, not to mention low-band VHF used by many police/fire departments in rural/hilly areas.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Come to think of it, maybe that was the problem all along. ;)
And don't say ham radio would be useful in some sort of natural disaster, seeing as the internet WAS designed to withstand a nuclear attack!
Not only that, but where the hell am I going to find a HAM operator after an earthquake? That's probably the least of my worries.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
for one, there is no worldwide wireless ISP whereas with HAM one can communicate with pretty much anyone on the globe from pretty much any point so for unpopulated areas wanting a way of communicating long distances HAM is the only way to communicate with the outside world and ships only long range communication.
This sig blantantly stolen by a pack of robo-monkeys.
Question I want to know the answer to: can the leaky signal be reconstructed into data?
If so, this would be the world's easiest communications tap. Kind of like war driving, but with a sitting duck of a target that's several miles long.
Those 10 HAM operators should migrate to shoutcast.
Of course, it is largely isolated from the main Internet, since there are a lot of restrictions as to what can be done with Amateur Radio (no commercial use, no swearing, etc.) as opposed to the Internet at large.
Perhaps this topic image would have been appropriate?
I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
... hams with mobile tranceivers have parked up underneath power lines and have got poor reception, now they've got poor reception with added clicking noises. Probably more interesting than the stuff they usually listen to. I think someone should tell them that amateur radio was interesting in the first half of the 20th century, most of us have now moved on. BTW I still use Betamax.
What the hell? Why would you want tcp/ip over ham. Thats limiting yourself to having to use IP addresses. Packetized transmission I understand, but ham is not exactly routable so why is tcp/ip needed?
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Cars interfere with horse drawn buggies on the road. Technology marches on.
-Peter
Yes, broadband over powerlines has proven to be a technological dead end. It's been tested over here for several years, and it's just not worth it compared to already installed adsl or cable.
The power companies is doing one thing right though, with every new long span high voltage line they're laying, they're twirling fiber with the lines. That's the future. A fiber channel into each and every home.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
ARRLWeb Affiliated Club Search
There are only 17 clubs within 20 miles of my zipcode.
To become one yourself, consider:
Welcome to Amateur Radio!
And if you're less insensitive, I might volunteer use of my generator to keep your PC running while I radio the county office of emergency services.
About eight months ago I started experiencing MASSIVE interference on my 2.4ghz phone (it goes static every 3 seconds from some source of cyclic perpetual interference) and my wireless network suffered a noticable drop-off in range. I tried to isolate the source (turned off the router, talked to neighbors, etc.), but was totally unable to pin it down.
A couple months after I had been forced to go with an old wired phone I read an article discussing how certain RF lights used for radio towers and other commercial level items can cause long range interference. So I think to myself, "I'm in VT, and VT has mountains with radio towers on them, so maybe its an RF light somewhere."
Of course I don't have the resources to know what towers are around, etc., but maybe a local Ham operator group does? Figuring they would at least no more than I do about interference I searched for a local group and emailed the head of the VT Ham Radio organization located up near Burlington.
I basically asked him if his group knew of any sources of interference in my area, if he knew how I might track it down, and what my recourse might be. I'm basically thinking hey, I'm just wondering what's up, and this guy is probably in a position to help. I've heard the stories of self-absorbed Hams fighting with neighbors, but I'm figuring its an overblown stereotype based on a noted minority of the group.
The response I got was immediately hostile. First point was no answer in terms of known sources of interference... basically just ignored the question and said it could be anything. Then he goes on this diatribe telling me I have no rights, the 2.4ghz range is unregulated (yes, I already knew all this), he and other Hams have more rights since they are licensed, and how I generally have no expectation of a clear channel.
I made the point that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that I should be able to receive a signal for my phone inside my own house 20 feet from the base station. I also noted that 802.11b and similar technologies in the 2,4ghz frequency are one of the fastest growing areas of the technology industry, and that a rural area like VT might be well served socially and economically from the advent of such tech developments. He disagreed, stating that Hams had done more to maintain the spectrum than anyone else, and thus had a greater right to a greater share than anyone else.
The emails went back and forth a bit, but it basically confirmed the general stereotype for Ham operators as a group relatively unconcerned with the happiness of their neighbors.
So what's the summary? Hams are over-defensive, self-absorbed, and unrealstic. In the old days they had the run of the frequencies since most of the spectrum was totally unutilized. They got comfy living in a big house with few people to bother them. The explosion in communications and utilization of the various frequencies has thus begun to threaten their little fiefdom, and it now has them screaming bloody murder.
My message to Hams: get over it, you are a TINY minority whose hobby does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for anyone but yourself. I and many others don't have a problem with your hobby in general, but we have a right not to lose our use of radio frequencies ENTIRELY just so you can talk with a guy a hundred miles away. You don't generate jobs with your hobby, you don't venefit the community, and your licensing does not entitle you to run rampant over the rights of your neighbors. Despite what the FCC might contend, radio frequencies are the property of ALL citizens and not a select few.
-rt
The major reason that broadband over powerlines is a good idea is because the power companies have comprehensive right-of-way for their cables, right to your door. They also do not have much incentive not to sell it to you, like the local phone and cable monopolies, the first of which does not really see how broadband relates to their business, and the second who thinks broadband is a good way to sell you more digital media content. If power companies could leverage their access, they could make some money that otherwise will just go somewhere else.
I would almost be inclined to say to heck with the ham radio operators in this case. After all, what would hurt them would benefit lots of other people. But on the other hand, this is ridiculous! Is the only way to get broadband to more American homes over frickin' powerlines?! Too bad if this comes to pass, it will be the fault of the telcos and the cable companies if it does.
I'm N7ZTT. I can never get my extra class license now that they lowered the morse code test to 5wpm - the advanced class (which no longer exists) is my only proof that I can transmit data by hand at ~10 baud (yes, faster than some early modems! 13wpm = ~10 baud)
:-)
If you follow that link, you'll see I earned my advanced class in 1993; I received my first license in ~1991. But I'm not an old fark, I was homeschooled & did this for part of my curriculum. I'm only 23
I'll make another post in a few minutes that won't be a brag thread. It's actually sorta sad to see Ham radio fading out. You can do everything and more on the internet than you can on amateur radio. Of course, if we had wide-scale power outages & the sun was spewing crud at our atmosphere, morse code could potentially be the only way to quickly send information to other countries. Due to the nature of morse code, it can be deciphered even with a very low S/N ratio.
Anyway, I'll make a more intelligent post soon:
I want it now.
I took a ham class in 1992 that had some nice equipment: We had a couple AT computers (286's I believe) that were capable of logging on to 'Ham BBS's' I had an account & we could send email around the world via FidoNet. I also downloaded this old game called "Welltris" via (Amtor I think) - it's like tetris, but in a well. It was definitely not open-source - so there you go, warez at 120 baud. *groan*
they can give it, but not take it.
You can also listen to this sound file for a sample of the radio inteference.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Have the proponents of BPL considered that it may be a violation of international treaties governing the use and allocation of the RF spectrum? If I want to put an HF transmitter on the air, I must obtain a license from my country's radio administration, who in turn is required to follow international treaties that say what frequencies and emission types are available for specific classes of users. There are bands reserved for broadcasting, ships, aircraft, amateur radio, etc.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Personally I'd rather have fiber, cable or DSL than rely upon power lines. From my testing, AC in my area isn't stable in voltage or frequency. Power companies don't give a hang if trees wear insulation off wires. Pushing data across a decrepit infrastructure... not very reassuring. Let's not hear whining about dropped packets due to birds or squirrels. Ham radio is ancient, but at least it will operate regardless of the latest virus, DOS, or hack attacks. There is no DRM on the air, and best of all: Microsoft has no presence on ham bands. Old hams use morse code which is really binary (dot,dash = one, zero), and they hack hardware left & right. There is more in common with hams than most think. Ham::Linux as Cellphone::Windows. I am !ham
Ham Radio is still needed today! after 9/11 the cell phone system was in chaos with so many calls but hams were there to set up wireless communications and if there were ever a 9/11 style attack on america hams would need to be there to aid us. so why not give hams what they want it could save your life
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
Since many people DO experience interference on ALL Their devices from local Ham operators with overpowered rigs.
Do you really expect sympathy from the public at large when most Hams treat their neigbors and others whose lives they trample with nothing but disdain?
-rt
How many people still rely on ham radio? Why havent they moved over to something a little more modern? Does ham radio have any advantages over current technology?
YOU rely on ham radio, you think that the technology behind 802.11 wireless networks isn't based on techmology that hams came up with? The mode used in the data over powerline stuff is almost certainly based on their experimentation. So, lots of people rely on ham radio, even you.
That sound coming from the scanner isn't interefence from the power lines... The guy just picked up a couple of R2 units singing a duet.
Packet radio is extremely routable. TCP/IP is one way we do it, but actually is not the most common method.
As another poster pointed out, amateur radio operators mainly use AX.25. Both TCP/IP and AX.25 are X.25 derivatines. AX.25 identifiers are Amateur Radio callsigns with numeric suffixes (such as "N0CALL-10"). AX.25 routing is done by broadcasting while gradually incrementing your TTL until someone hears them for you (if they aren't your immediate neighbor), or manually entered information (either as a route table or "Connect to SOME1 via SOME2, SOME3, SOME4").
There are also a few other ways (such as NETROM and ROSE) amateur radio operators can route information digitally. While it would be a stretch, NETROM could be considered our equivalent of BGP router advertising and periodic route annoucements. ROSE is a polled system similar to Token Ring.
We also have our share of propritary speedup techniques (such as KA-NODE from Kantronics) and experiemental protocols as well.
does anyone else see a little white dot near the top ... just under the ads?
> no swearing
So "ping -p 6675636b 44.255.255.255" will get people in trouble?
Home Amateur Mechanic...
N7ZTT
The claim that BPL is good for rural deployment is yet another myth propagated by the BPL lobbyists. In essence it is bait and switch. The BPL strategy is to get the FCC to allow the high levels of interference / pollution as the FCC is focused on getting broadband to communities that don't have it
In reality, if the BPL lobbyists succeed, they will immediately focus on the wealthy suburban markets that are profitable (and already have cable and DSL) and ignore the rural areas.
DSL can work out to about ~ 16,000 feet from the central office. BPL can only go 2,000 feet from the BPL equivalent of a DSLAM, then it needs an expensive repeater installed by an linesman trained to work with 11,000 volt cables. So for a 16,000 foot run 8 BPL repeaters are needed.
At the customer's pole transformer a bridge needs to be installed to couple the signals from the 11,000 volt line to the 110 volt line (shudder to think what would happen if the bridge failed).
However the math is worked, there is no way they can implement this vast array of expensive equipment in rural areas with any hope of meeting the projected pricing.
The existing DSL broadband technology is proven and could be provided to almost everyone who has a phone, the barriers are political not technical. The solution to universal broadband lies in ensuring the phone companies serve all of their customers equally. BPL is a broken technology that is a pure distraction to the objective of universal broadband.
Now we can blame the high cost of broadband on the HAM operators, instead of the exclusive provider deals the cable companies enjoy and the stupid way the phone companies were "required" to allow competition through thier lines. (Can a company really fairly act as a "Common Carrier" if they are competing in the service market that they are "carrying"?)
Oooh, those HAMs burn me up! I feel better already.
It's not a brilliant idea anyway, with power lines being incredible non tunable antaennas, irregular variations in power transmission frequency (which would be your carrier freq), and most power transformers filtering frequencies that are not close to 60Hz (that's the freq you feel when you stick your finger in the wall socket).
There are better ways to expand the broadband market, such as wireless. I figure that if they can afford it in Bangladesh, there's no logical reason it can't be done in the States or other fully developed countries.
Read, L
The radio spectrum is a limited, shared resource, which is why we have different services, licenses, etc. And of course there must be a balance between the needs of various services, such as broadcasting vs. hams vs. maritime users, etc.
But BPL isn't a *user* of the radio spectrum, just a *polluter*. And a basic principle of regulation has been that polluters must not interfere with licensed users.
Imagine a river that is used for many purposes - transportation, recreation, energy production, food production, etc. Different parts of the river are reserved for different purposes and all benefit from the river. The different users of the river all pay for licenses and support preservation and intelligent use of the river.
Then along comes a company that wants to use the river as a dump for its industrial waste, without paying any fees and without regard for other users of the river, who are NOT allowed to dump anything into the river at all! The company says they should be allowed to dump their waste into the river wherever and whenever they want, and if the other river users don't like it, too bad.
On top of all this, other companies in the same business do not dump waste into anybody's river. Instead, they invest heavily in new technology so that they don't generate much waste in the first place, and also invest in treatment, containment and disposal technology so that what little waste they do generate is handled safely. Those other companies are in direct competition with the new company, but they don't get the exception the new company is asking for.
There's a very good reason the military uses so much RF gear, you know. You don't really think all hams do is chat on HF.. do you?
im not trolling her but ive always thought CB radio is a shocking waste of spectrum anyway. its really more of a niche compared to the flexibility of the internet. no offence to any CBers here. if people can get more use out of broadband using the same spectrum space then so be it.
Perhaps if citizens radio was modernised to more spectrally efficient and used compression methods and error correction like the myriad internet protocols and cellular phone protocols it wouldnt matter so much.
------
beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
What they need to do is head "back to the drawing board" and come up with some tighter systems,
what interferes with hf will eventually interefere with other frequencies, particularly if there
is a majour system failure, filters go out of whack or whatever. Also, poorly designed and
cheap (can you say Radio Shack?) electronics will also inevitably be susceptable.
Coming to a cordless phone near you! Interference from Power Line Broadband! Get it while it's hot!
Canuck Wingnut
-:
If this is correct, and the interfered range is 2Mhz to 80Mhz....that is a hell of a lot more than just hams!! ...if the article is true.
That includes military HF, and the low band used for alot of dispatch radio.
I dont see this happening
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Ham Radio fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a Ham Radio and TNC (Kantronics KPC-2 TNC Packet Communicator II hooked up to an ICOM 706 MK IIG) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder on a harddrive 5 miles away. 20 minutes. At home, on my WiFi enabled laptop, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Ham Radio/TNC combonation, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.
In addition, during this file transfer, simplex communication will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even my morse code keyer is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Ham Radio machines, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Ham Radio box that has run faster than its WiFi counterpart, despite the Ham Radio machines faster chip architecture. My ancient 1980's numeric pager with 8 megs of ram runs faster than this machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that Ham Radio is a "superior" machine.
Ham Radio addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Ham Radio over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.
BPL is already obsolete. The power companies can hang 5GHz Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure (U-NII) equipment on the poles and do it all at 5GHz. No interference to HF, and more bandwidth to boot.
By the way, the U-NII was another pet project of the lawyers running the FCC. Looks like they inadvertently short circuited BPL.
U-NII equipment is already available, see motorola.canopywireless.com/
For more of the idea of hanging U-NII on the power poles see
home.comcast.net/~gbox/
From posted comments we can infer:
a) Ham is only useful in:
- disasters
- unpopulated areas w/o internet connectivity or cellphone coverage or satellite communication coverage
b) The rest of uses of ham radio falls under the description of hobby.
- When a disaster happens the first to go out is power, so no problem with interferences here.
- The unpopulated areas which comply requisites of such isolation are unlikely to have power coverage!
So, no problem! Benefits of broadband over power lines overweight by some orders of magnitude the ham radio usefulness.
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
to clear up your confusion.
/.ers who are HAMS with your ignorance.
Amateur Radio. Licensed people who go out in disasters and provide comunications and experiment with radio. Mostly geeks of one type or another.
CBers and FRS unlicensed comunications by mouth breathers.
Don't insult your fellow
King Henry, VI part II act IV
"The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers."
It's a joke about lawyers sure it is. We have to many lawyers. Do your part.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pafreenet/message/14 9
Massive and diverse opposition to interference from BPL / PLC
c ..
e ..
. c..
. .
. .
Overwhelming number of comments to the FCC strongly oppose interference from BPL.
A very diverse range of corporations, organizations, associations, groups and citizens have filed comments that urge the FCC to ensure that BPL / PLC interference does not pollute our shortwave.
Of the 2,500 comments that have been filed. Over 99% of the comments to the FCC have been against allowing BPL interference. The small number of comments supporting BPL have been from Power Companies looking for quick profits at the expense of turning our American shortwave into an electronic version of Prince William Sound after the Exxon Valdez oil spill.
Below are links to some of the submissions.
IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers)
gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.
National Academy of Sciences (BPL will severely disrupt Radio Astronomy)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retriev
Wireless Communications Association (BPL could disrupt Wireless Internet access)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve..
North American Shortwave Association
gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
ARRL (Represents 700,000 American radio amateurs)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
National Association of Broadcasters (Folks that own the TV and Radio stations)
svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve
I started reading the article thinking.. man HF is of the best spectrum for a ham, the only spectrum for the most part a DXer cares about.. but in thinking about BPL, and how it could change the so many things.. I almost think it's worth the loss (although I still favor the Hams at heart [first come first serve ;) ]) As compress abilities get better, and as transmision methods get more affective BPL could have the potiential to save countless dollars on the up keep on all of our telephone poll infrustructure. VoIP replacing our POTS lines, BPL bandwidth replacing our cable/dsl modems, perhaps a shift in the way cable television services our delivered. Opens the doors to some crazy stuff like interactive TV and other integrated services albiet seemingly far fetched at the present.
The bottom line is that BPL's harmful effects ARE NOT limited to ham frequencies. There's a bunch of other services, both commercial and government, using HF from 2-30MHz.
Just as a few examples: Aeronautical HF, NOAA RadioFAX over HF, NOAA storm warnings broadcast by SITOR over HF, Federal and Marine HF frequencies... The list goes on forever.
So, it really isn't just hams that are going to be suffering. It's EVERYONE that uses the HF spectrum, including the U.S. Government!
How long do you think said government is going to let BPL exist in its current form once critical military or Justice Department installations start noticing the very same interference that'll be driving us hams nuts?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
nice, except you forgot to mention that HAMs are involved with such things like storm chasing, and emergency comm services?
HAMs were known to provide emergency communications in disaster areas and helping to provide such services as 911... which some of you take for granted.
Don't mix up CB operators and HAMs.
--- sig moved for great justice.
really bad comparision . HAM technology is usefull ; sure it might be a bit slower but in the event of an emergancy or failure of other methods of communication it can ,literaly, be a life saver for many thousands. HAM radio is also a great educational resource , want to learn about radios? Unfortunitly the CRTC (or FCC in the US or whatever) wont let you just pick a random band and start transmitting on it (I know CB and 900mhz , 2.4ghz , 5ghz ; both are only good for very small regions , and are allready quite crowded and full of junk). (Note : HAM's (in canada not sure else where) have preference on the 2.4ghz band :-) . Anyways when all is said and done , if the power company is causing interference then they either have the choice of fixing it or being forceable shut down (not power but broadband).
IANHAM But I am studying to become one (admitedly with slightly out of date material) .
I started reading the article thinking.. man HF is some of the best spectrum for a ham; the only spectrum, for the most part, that a DXer cares about. In thinking about BPL though, and how it could change the way we do so many things.. I' almost convinced that it's worth the loss (although I still favor the Hams at heart [first come first serve ;) ]) As compression abilities get better, and transmision methods get more affective, BPL could have the potiential to save countless dollars on the up keep on all of our telephone-pole-based infrustructure. VoIP replacing our POTS lines, BPL bandwidth replacing our cable/dsl modems, perhaps a shift in the way cable television services our delivered. Opens the doors to some crazy stuff like interactive TV and other integrated services albiet seemingly far fetched at the present.
You might find yourself thankful for HAMs.
Disclaimer: I am a HAM operator myself, so I'm just stating my bias up front... mod as you wish.
In disaster situations, HAM radio has really come through... I was in Florida when Andrew came rolling through Miami and Homestead; HAMs were a big help in getting comms reestablished. HAMs assisted with comms when the WTC's fell on 911. HAMs assist in tracking of dangerous storms via the SKYWARN system.
During a bad blizzard in the midwest a few years back, myself and a bunch of other HAMs coordinated a service with our 4WD vehicles and mobile radios... we ferried healthcare workers to the hospital to help deal with the influx of patients.
HAM radio is valuable... would be a shame to see it go, particularly if the interference problem can be fixed with a bit of re-engineering.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Passing data over power lines is irresponsible from an engineering perspective. Power lines were designed to carry very very low frequencies, 60 hertz to be exact. BPL is wideband noise from 1 to 80 megahertz.
:-)
Anyone with the slightest electical engineering knowledge knows that a signal of such high frequencies will be radiated and antenuated nearly immediately. The power lines are just awful transmission media for these frequencies. What is needed for the power cables is shielding -- that's what's known as coaxial cable. ( Why don't they pass data on cable ?
This is analogous to the water company trying to deliver water with perforated pipes. The water just spills out everywhere and every couple hundred feet they would have to pump in more water so that you had sufficient water pressure at your house.
BPL was rejected in Japan and Europe, becuase it polluted the spectrum so bad it was pathetic.
For those dumping on ham radio as being obsolete or feel broadband is more important, consider that this will interfere with many other services including international ship distress frequencies, government (including military) allocations, shortwave broadcasts, and most likely aviation and public safety frequencies. Is your ability to get high speed pr0n more important than all this ?
Why is everyone else (like the FCC and utility companies) saying this is great ? The FCC is pro-big business and pro-utility. Equipment vendors are retreading the same technology that was rejected overseas and not informing their clients, the power companies, of the true interference potential. The power companies are dying to get into the broadband race as the telcos have their heads up their butts with DSL.
We need broadband, but this is not the solution. We need to remove the barriers for DSL and cable. Power companies could leapfrog the telcos and cable companies with fiber into the home or unlicensed wireless from their poles.
Quite simply, BPL is DOA.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
There is a lot more going on from 2mhz to 70mhz. If you live in CA, then I hope you don't ever want CHP to respond to an accident to save your life, because their radios operate on 39 and 42mhz. Fire protection districts nation wide have dispatches on 42 and 45mhz. The ARRL is the group that started yelling about BPL first, but much much more would be destroyed if it went live.
Since it will soon cost $699 to have a kernel to compile HAM drivers in to.
Whether the ham radios are home-built or paid for with hard-earned money, the issue is whether these radios would be rendered useless by this technology.
To put this in terms that a typical Slashdot reader would understand, you would be just as pissed (and probably a lot less level-headed than the ham radio operators are being) if someone rendered permanently inoperable any computer you now have or ever bought in the future.
Broadband over power lines is running a high frequency signal over unshielded, untwisted wire, for miles. Hmm, who would have thought that could cause radio interference? Maybe the power companies (and the equipment manufacturers) should have thought about this for a bit longer.
It's one thing to run fiber to the curb, and use a low-power signal to the home - that might be workable. It's basically what the hybrid fiber coax cable systems do, but their wire is shielded too.
If the equipment is generating this much RF interference, I don't see how the equipment could be certified for deployment. If it is certified, I'd be interested to know what agency put their mark on it.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
Beyond the ham part and interference for other users of that chunk of sprectium is simple this:
Everywhere they have run test and trial it does not live up to even 1% of the hype. Japan tried it and kill it. I think Scotland been redoing the test and failing. It does not work. Its one of those great idea but wont fly. Wont solve the last mile problem. Mosly would compete with already existing Broadband services. And takes a lot of rework to get signals past transformers and the rest of the power line equipment. You are trying to run data over lines never designed for this stuff. Look at your net cable. Its twisted to do some limited shielding. This has none. Is not self shielding and both act as a receive/tramission antenna. Also the harmonic { mutiple/division of primary freq } would hit into FM { 88~108 ), Air{ 108~12?} and possible the AM band etc. At the level they would need to drive this the interference beyond the 2 80 is almost certain.
Just because you can do something doe mot mean you should do it.
DSlReports had this a while back.
Get your facts correct. That is CBers. Not HAMs.
The vast majority of cases of TVI (television interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference) are caused by the poor design and engineering of consumer electronics equipment, not spurious or illegal emissions from amateur radio stations. Consumer electronics equipment is designed to be cheap, not to be well shielded and resistant to EMI (electro-magnetic interference). The manufacturers could substantially increase their product's resistance to EMI with a few dollars worth of components, but they wont do it. They would rather pocket the money and let the consumer suffer the consequences. To make things worse, the amateur radio operator, who probably spent thousands of dollars on high-quality, properly engineered, radio equipment, gets the blame for the deficiencies of someone's crap TV set, built in China for $50.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Why do pigs care about powerline broadband?
http://www.club977.com/ - The 80's Channel!
Your source for commercial free 80's music!
I have been reading /. for years and this is the most disappointing reaction to a story posting that I have seen to date.
/.ers are attacking amateur radio rather than seeking more information about the service. "Hams" are not just ten old guys sitting around using "CBs" to talk in some antiquated manner or a bunch of old guys hunched over a telegraph key slowly tapping out morse code. Amateur radio is also not just an "emergency" service -- although some amateur radio operators do participate in emergency communications. You would be amazed at what amateur radio has to offer -- GPS location services, radio/Internet interconnects, satellite communications, digital communications, microwave projects, rural Internet, and other bleeding edge projects. Many of these projects will become standard /.er fair in five or ten years.
First, BPL is proven to cause interference to more than just amateur radio. Amateur radio operators are one of the few groups that has the skills and capabilities to prove the problem exists before a major mistake is made in deploying BPL.
Second, I have seen a number of anecdotes indicating that "ham" radio operators are jerks and, therefore, apparently should not have any rights. Obviously, in any group, a small minority of the members may be jerks. However, "hams" are by far one of the kindest, most intelligent, and thoughtful groups that I know. It is not fair for me to minimize the "jerk" problem, but I cannot see a link between being a jerk and having rights taken away. Get to know some real amateur radio operators and you will see a dedicated, service-oriented, and technologically cutting edge group.
Third, amateur radio operators are licensed by the FCC. The licensing requires extensive testing and is conducted very professionally (locate a local VEC session and you will see what I mean about professionalism). The tests are rigorous, especially for the higher classes, and require the applicant to be seriously interested in radio and technical communications.
Amateur radio operators are not a bunch of people with "CBs" sitting around making life difficult for others.
Forth, amateur radio operators are largely responsible for many of the "Internet crowd" technologies. Wireless Internet (I was doing that in 1990), satellite tv, "cell" phones, etc. were all largely based on amateur radio technologies. Amateur radio is really a cutting edge scientific and technical discipline.
Fifth, and probably most important, BPL may sound like an excellent idea; but the telecom industry promised broadband access via standard telephone and digital line technologies to most people in the US by 2006 as part of the mega merger process in the 1980s and 1990s. In exchange for creating mega-monopolies, the telcos promised to provide broadband services. The telcos, however, have heavily lobbied Congress and state governments to conveniently "forget" this little deal because it is now "too expensive." If the telcos would be held to their agreements, poor technologies like BPL would not be needed. Think about it: do you really want your Internet connections from a high voltage/amperage power line? Contact your Congressperson and state representatives and ask why the telcos have not lived up to the commitments.
I guess I am just disappointed that a number of
Sorry to get on my soap box.
The proposed frequency range for broadband over power line runs up to 80 MHz. There's a radio astronomy allocation at 25.55 Mhz, a couple more around 38, and another at 73.
...
Over-the-air TV channels 2-5 lie in the affected range.
There's also a subtler problem. That transformer near your house blocks high frequencies. To get broadband in and out of your house, the power company will have to buy and install bypass circuits to divert high-frequency signals around the transformer. OK so far
But what happens next? Right now that transformer is isolating you from your neighbors X-10 system, your neighbor's cheap switching power supplies, your neighbor's made-in-Sweatshopistan dimmers, and the home power line network on the next block.
Bypass that transformer and every one of those sources might as well be plugged into your house.
Yea thats it lets get rid of Public Safety so a few losers can have faster internet life or fast internet...choices
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
Check this out..
There's a link there for the PDF of the spectrum allocation. Pretty much "DC to Daylight". The piece that BPL is going to destroy covers a lot of Ham allocations. But it also covers things like:
Maritime Mobile
Aeronautical Mobile
Space Research
Standard Time Signals
Shortwave Broadcast
Radio Astronomy
Land Mobile
Fixed-station
The amateur service is a very small part of the spectrum below 30 Mhz. A lot of it is used for things like trans-oceanic flights, military and civilian mobile services, and the like.
I'm of two minds whether this will pass or not. Michael Powell, the FCC chair, hasn't made a good decision since he got into office, so I'm thinking this will go through because he's got the power companies all giving him blow jobs under the table. On the other hand, the FAA, NTIA, the military, and the shortwave broadcasters may get through to the FCC that they can't allow this, and maybe somebody will get that lamebrain Powell to do something right.
who modded this "troll"? It's a standard pot/kettle joke!
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
I don't want to sound troll. But this thing (ethernet over power lines) has been freaking out ham radio operators all over the world for quite some time. Look for example here [eham.net]. And based on the law "if the shit can happen it certainly will" this will bring EMI problems to all equipment that is connected to or in the vicinty of the jack in the wall. Your TVs your stereos your computers etc.
Besides have anybody of had to deal with power companies? Do you really want THEM to provide your internet connection? Or even being involved in providing one.
Time and time again it returns (and will keep returning) to the simple truth. You need an adequate infrastructure to provide high speed Internet.
In the beginning of DSL I kept hearing a lot of strange things going against physics. Such as UTP (unshielded twisted pair) is better than coaxial cable etc. Well guess what, being entirely untrue this is not the end of the story. The pair that runs the phone line in your home/appartment is not even twisted, its flat (and it's CAT 3 most of the time to the central office).
It took huge amount of money to put power lines, phone lines and CATV into every home. And the companies that were doing that were cutting costs like crazy. Which means that nobody ever thought that someday it will be used for something else besides its initial purpose. And again based on the law I mentioned in the beginning it will be probably the worst case scenario for anytiing else. In case of DSLs that certainly is crosstalk and EMI and also distance. For example in my case no DSL provider does even want to install it for me citing that I am too far from central office.
Personally I think the interrim winners of all this will be the cable companies. Just because the people who decided to get broadband internet access usually go all the way once they've set to have it. Most people I know who started with DSL eventually just switch to cable modems. But eventually every body will lose because again CATV was not intended for anything else. (Just an example untill recently CATV equipment manufacturers were refusing to use multilayered PCBs because it was "too expensive"). So this is it. People just keep their heads in the body cavities of their choice and keep selling each other a snake oil.
On the other hand. It would be actually nice (especially with current situation in tech sector of economy) if we'd start laying fiber to the home and/or build sane infrastructure for wireless access.
Just my $0.02
- Back off man. I am a scientist
On the plus side, i think many emergencies that require HAM use will have also taken out power and phone lines, and so would free them from much interference
HAM is dying!
[/me ducks!]
Personally (as an ex-Ham who can copy code), I don't think this BPL stuff is so bad. First of all, on a lot of the lower HF frequencies you are screwed if you are near a power line today as is. Even broadcast AM is unlistenable if you are driving on a road with a lot of power poles and overhead wiring.
Second, if this stuff is really bad, where is the skip? All it takes is a few watts on 20m to do worldwide communication, so if the BPL is really an issue, it should show up globally there, yet I don't think it does.
While HF communications are pretty much dead in the continental US (except for relious shortwave and CQ DX UR 599 QSL 73), it is important in developing areas such as Africa.
The third issue is that if skywaves really become an issue, BPL could be filtered to 30-80 MHz, which really don't have much skip outside of solar max years.
You'll notice that all of the times when it is "hams to the rescue" in recent years really center around 144 MHz and up...also note that after 911, there was a lot of use of unlicensed 900 MHz Ricochets around the former WTC site.
lets keep that old ass system alive for the old badgers and not proceed with new technology, RIGHT.
tell the old turds to get a new hobby.
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully "designed" to have come into existence by chance.
.
e ctrum_map.pdf for an idea of the frequiencies and services that will be affected.
I don't understand why this article would be slanted to make it seem that only wrinkly old radio amateurs will be affected by the BPS broadband RF noise scheme. There are literally hundreds of thousands of users of this part of the spectrum that will be adversely impacted, from private and industrial communications to aircraft and maritime navigation and weather stations.
And YOU TOO, if you have marginal radio or television reception. Look at the chart at http://www.geog.ucl.ac.uk/casa/martin/atlas/us_sp
Hams, my ass! You're being lied to, again.
This would explain why I suddenly get bad radio reception, our local power company has rolled out this technology a year ago to businesses.
Do you know why some hams have a defensive attitude? Because there are large numbers of ignorant people who will blame their local amateur radio operator for every glitch and defect in the performance of their hi-fi and TV. If you try to rationally explain that you were not on the air when they experienced the problem, or that there may be a problem with the design or installation of the electronics equipment, their brain shuts down, their face turns red, and they start shouting at you. They know they are right and they don't want to be distracted by the facts.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The question that comes to my mind after watching the video is, can data be recovered from the signals picked up as interference?
Here is BPL_Trial-small.mpg, and here is how Freecache works.
Gosh, I'm so confused... Didn't we already learn on Slashdot that radio interference is a myth?
(n/t)
large portion of the spectrum unless there is a damn good tradeoff for the public at large.
How about very low cost internet access funded by a small tax on your utility bill? You choose your ISP, they move the data.
The problem I have with this is simple.
Power companies want to make more money and they intend to keep it. This is theft from everyone else with established uses on the HF bands. --Yes this includes HAM radio.
HAM radio is responsible for a lot of good in this country and worldwide. To just brush them off is an insult at best and outright theft at worst.
We should support HAMs the same way we do others who are using technology in creative ways. What if a law were passed that prevented anyone from moving their own e-mail? Or that limited their ability to move large portions of data?
Everyone here would be *pissed*. Raising the noise floor this high on the HF bands is the same sort of thing.
I am in the process of (re) earning my license again after a 15 year lapse. HF is one of the reasons I want to start again. This is lame. I plan to write my reps and congress critters. You all should do the same if you value anything. Afterall your particular technology niche just might be next...
One more thought:
If this goes through without some serious compensation to both the general public and the HF community in general, it is nothing more than an outright money grab that we all should be ashamed of. --nothing more.
Blogging because I can...
In fact I think you have shown just how apt it is. Try this:
Buggies are usefull; sure they might be a bit slower but in the event of failure of other methods of transportation they can, literally, be a life saver for many thousands. Buggies are also a great educational resource , want to learn about horses?
I don't have anything against radio or HAMs. My Dad and Great Uncle are HAMs. I was a commo guy in the Army. In Joint Endeavor ("Bosnia") our land based comms were less than ideal. Our shortwaves were, literally, lifesavers. I'm certainly not prejudiced against the technology.
The fact is, however, that broadband Internet access in urban areas is more valuable than HAM radio by any rational criterion other than historical value.
There are certainly arguments for HAM in rural areas, but thanks to the trusty inverse square law of electromagnetic radiation and the fact that rural areas, by definition, have a lot of open space they are not relevant to the discussion.
What does this mean? In the courts? By the CRTC? As I understand it Canadians are ill equipped to mount a revolution . .
-Peter
Being a HAM and have been on the recieving end of unlicensed "transmitting" power lines abet not broadband I can tell you the last people you want delivering your access to broadband is the power company. You want PG&E to deliver your broadband?
These folks will not even fix their rf leaking transformers unless you threaten to bring in the FCC. They take 10 years to get anything done. Man the technology is a gross poluter of the RF enviroment, it's insecure as hell and ain't gonna happen. Have you ever dealt with the uptight bitches thay have answering the Phone? Give me a break LOL.
King Henry, VI part II act IV
"The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers."
It's a joke about lawyers sure it is. There are to many lawyers. Do your part.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
technologies and shot powerline down as bad.
The powerline commission doing the study
a few years back found it could do major damage
to their economy.
I find it amusing that when people send an unsolicited Email advertisment, everybody gets up in arms over the usage, and how it intefers with there email service.
But as soon as some yet to be proven technology hits a snag because someone else was using the frequency first, they all take the "its progress!" stand.
Well, I got news for you, its different then the 'internet'. it usese different technolgy, for a different purpose.
Ham radio operators have done more for progress then all the webmasters combined.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Don't let that stop you from getting your extra! I got mine in the 80's when I had to pass 20 wpm, so I sort of got hosed in the sense you're talking about. But you can prove your code proficiency with an ARRL qualifying run. Then you'll get a nifty certificate of code proficiency.
73,
NX7E
There is a lot more in the affected bandwidth than ham radio. The hams are just the most vocal group to oppose BPL.
There is worldwide shortwave broadcast, citizen's band, government and land-mobile radio, too, including police and fire dispatch (although a lot of that has moved up to VHF higher, there is still a lot on "low band"), cordless telephones and baby monitors, television channels 2-6, etc.
So it's not just hams that will lose out if this technology is deployed. Shortwave listeners, public safety communications, other land mobile (there are a lot of utilities using these frequencies) and pepole receiving television off antennas will all find their communcations disrupted.
Not to mention the technical problems of distributing RF over a very-low-frequency network.
This is a bad idea, poorly implemented. Like a nuclear powered airplane with an air-shielded reactor. An idea who's time will never come.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
for the cell phones to work, then there's no interference. If there's interference, your cell phone works. Hmm.
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
During the last decade, there have been numerous promises of fast Internet for the rural community. These included ADSL, Cable Modems and Satellite Internet. So far, do to low user population, none of them have moved to the rural community. I ask you now; does anyone honestly believe that BPL will be provided to the rural user that is the only customer on a five-mile run? After all, it is the promise of cheap Internet that the BPL associations are using to press for FCC approval. With all of the damage to Amateur Radio, which provides vital emergency services, is it worth it? Many people question whether or not the Amateur Radio operators still have value to the community. If you have this question, I invite you to talk to the National Weather Service, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army or any of the national disaster relief organizations. Don't take my word on the subject, talk to the people who work with hams during the disasters. Would the communities not be better off encouraging the CATV providers to move out into the rural areas and service internet as well as television. I don't want to provide any family or business of fast Internet services, but as a ham radio operator active in emergency communications, I have great concern about my future ability to serve my community if BPL is allowed to continue.
"Buggies are usefull; sure they might be a bit slower but in the event of failure of other methods of transportation they can, literally, be a life saver for many thousands. Buggies are also a great educational resource , want to learn about horses?"
It is far more lickley that you will lose power, then all the vehicals will fail.
Not compared to vehicals. I know its new, so you might never of heard of it, but there are vehicals that don't need roads. Now in the backward place you live, this might sound like mahic, but there are vehicles that FLY THROUGH THE AIR!
Placing buggie for that example is just stupid. Buggies often require roads be in better repiar them many vehicals.
"The fact is, however, that broadband Internet access in urban areas is more valuable than HAM radio by any rational criterion other than historical value."
Uh-huh.
So peple in urban areas don't deserve the emergency service of hams why, exatly?
In the US, they would be shut down by the FCC. I'm sure Canada has a similiar situation.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm sure one of you HAMs out there have done the math on the radio spectrum and so rather than re-figure i'll just ask - If i had the entire radio spectrum (as current technology and practical antenna sizes permit) at my disposal, how many terabits could I throw/catch and how would that compare to the amount of terabits that currently flow around the net during peak times?
With software defined radio and multiband antennas i can't see why a network couldn't be set up entirely wireless. line of sight communications for local and cached data with HF for long hauls. Software defined radio to bridge the gaps. Sure, you'd want to leave bandwith for low tech audio tranceivers in case of emergencies, but other than that all equipment that currently uses analog mush should be scrapped. screw it all and i don't care about backwards compatibility other than the slice of bandwith left for low-tech. Phase it out. Promptly. Tough sh!t for big businesses and governments who want to squeeze the last few ounces out of their old tech equipment. Digital is efficent and analog isn't.
From http://www.ampr.org/bother.html:
"Why is this? The AMPRNet is mostly NOT connected to the Internet. Out of the multiple thousand computer systems ("hosts") registered in the AMPR.ORG domain, and the thousands of IP addresses on network 44, few are actually able to reach or be reached from the Internet."
All because (http://www.ampr.org/amprnet.html):
"An address allocation originally obtained in the 1970's by Hank Magnuski, [snip]"
So they get to use perfectly valid IP addresses for nodes that are largely not plugged into the internet? Maybe offtopic here, but damn will this get posted in the next inevitable running out of IPs story.
Appologies if I come off as a karma whore, or an off-topic ranter, but I wanted to make the note that "ham" is simply another term for "amateur" radio. There's much debate about where the "ham" name from.
:)
But it doesn't stand for anything, and thus HAM isn't really correct. It's rather like the people who, unfamiliar with the term, talk about LINUX, not Linux. To those familiar with the term, and who regard caps as SHOUTING, it's rather disconcerting to have people randomly shouting "HAM!" at you.
So please, ham, not HAM.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Minor point, but afaik marine and coast guard channels are all around 155-165MHz.
Sure, but they still use HF for long distance communications, which can be critical on the high seas... Satellite phones aren't everything.
-- R
I am shocked at the ignorance of so many slashdotters. Amateur radio is NOT just HF! Amateur radio has had an impressive presence in space since day one. The VERY FIRST communications satellite, which actively relayed signals between two points on Earth (as opposed to being a dumb reflector), was an amateur radio satellite, OSCAR 3 in 1965 ("OSCAR" stands for "Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio"). Do you call this backwardness? Radio amateurs were able to enjoy "phone patches" in their VHF/UHF bands decades before the deployment of cellphones. For the latest in space activities of radio amateurs take a look at the official web site of AMSAT, www.amsat.org. Amateur satellites are not placed in geosynchronous orbits (those precious spots are reserved for commercial ones). That creates a host of problems unknown to operators/users of commercial satellites: Doppler shift, antenna aiming, and wildly varying polarization, just to name a few (the typical "satellite dish" user never experiences these problems because his antenna aims at a geosynchronous satellite, which stays at the same point in the sky with respect to his dish). Yet, radio amateurs successfully use these satellites every day. Do you call this backwardness (or not current technology)? I think you are very ignorant. Where do you think the numerically-controlled oscillator came from? (A radio amateur invented it). Or other exotic demodulation schemes, such as the Costas loop? Or many different kinds of antennas used today? (John D. Kraus, W8JK, is credited with the invention of the helical antenna and the so-called supergain array, just to name a couple of examples. He also built the first radiotelescope.) You may want to know that this path to innovation is still followed today. Today's amateurs are experimenting with new modulation schemes, are trying to push the envelope of usable frequencies well into the millimeter waves, and are also very active in free-space optical links. These are but a few examples. So, ham radio has been AHEAD of current technology! Exotic amateur communications techniques of yesterday are mainstream today after the commercial interests took a look at them in action and realized their potential. So, if you think that amateur radio is technology of the past, you are dead wrong! As an aside on the importance of the HF spectrum, what would provide long-range communication if today's satellites were destroyed, say in a case of war? Have you, pro-BPL slashdotters, ever thought of that?
it just occurred to me that, in case of an emergency, where BPL is operating ham radio won't be terribly missed. by the same token, if an emergency knocks out BPL service, then ham radio can pick up the slack without interference.
but perhaps i'm just illustrating my own lack of understanding of the technologies involved?
I have a license, KC5LHH. And while hams aren't at the forefront, neither is the emergency broadcast service. Hams train themselves to provide a worldwide communications network under the *worst* possible conditions. And while BPL would do much to harm broadcasts, I do think that proper power supply filtering and construction can greatly reduce/eliminate the problem. Just don't count em out. In the event of a disaster as trivial as a hurricane/earthquake, they are quite useful. And one day when some conventional/nuclear war takes place or aliens invade, you might owe them your life.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
CRTC just so happens to be the canadian agency . What I am saying isd that if power line broadband were to be implemented in canada (or tested in canada) and it cuased interferance with amateur radio the CRTC would , in all likely hood , shut down the pilot project . In the US I think the orgnaization is the FCC .
.With power line broadband I can talk to most places in the world (that have internet access and HAM covers wider range than this) when everything is working . It is a bit faster than HAM radio , but if it is implemented then it blocks out the older slower (to to mention more open and relaible) method of communication . If they can implement power line broadband in a way witch does not interfer with HAM radio , then go ahead ; however the way they wish to implement it will effectively block out short wave bands (that are used for a hell of a lot more than HAM radio . BBC , voice of america , CBC international , countless others) .
Now , buggies are slower , but the problem is they arent as usefull as cars . For instance , I cant drive a buggy from ottawa to vancouver in a timely fashon , yet the car will get me there in a timely fashon . The buggy is completely unusable for that application . However with HAM radio I can still talk from say northern ontario in the middle of nowhere to just about anywhere in the world (depending on my category of license and transmision equipment) . Where as with powerline broadband the same is true , except to a lesser extent
For instance on Ontario roads , in most cities some notable exceptions , I can drive a buggy if I please , but motorists can still drive there car.
The reason why the hourse & buggy anology if flawed is because the car did not stop the buggy from being used; powerline broadband will prevent HAM radio equipment from being used.
That's great that if the power is out, the interference would be gone, but why would the HAM operators all over the country still be operating, if 99.999% of the time, they were drowned out by interference, they'd all be gone.
Magic elves?
The people recieving their transmissions are goign to be right smack in the middle of BPL interference, and unable to hear a fucking thing.
Use your head.
...many folks still use tubes. Take one hell of an EMP even to pop a couple of 6LF6's.
I'll call you on that :) FCC abolished the sending test how long ago? Pre-1993, at any rate...as that's when my Advanced license dates from. You can still receive at 13WPM though (and the test was kinda weak in my opinion...the examiners were amazed at five minutes of solid copy. A one-minute requirement strikes me as barely workable).
Get your extra. And hang onto your CSCE. I still have all of mine around here somewhere.
As far as all these chumps complaining about hams and their "private playground"--yeesh. The REASON for the amateur service is that it's proven, in technological and social resources, to greatly enhance the commons. Same basic reason we have copyright protection--investing or limiting the public domain in the short term to enrich it in the long term. If you want to eliminate all ham bands, fine. Never use your cell phone again. Or TCP/IP (look up Phil Karn...some of us know him as KA9Q). Heck, wireless networking owes a lot to TAPR and other amateur experimenters. Avoid anything using the microwaves--hams developed the technology to make them accessible.
Oh, you mean you want unlicensed usage? Fine. Plenty of bands for that. The ELF area, for example. Or 49MHz. You know why 49MHz, 900MHz, all those other unlicensed bands are shitholes? Because they're unlicensed. There's no responsibility for maintaining equipment or proper operating procedure. Nothing keeping the corporations off there.
The airwaves are a public resource. Ham bands are a publicly-available way to use them. Just like accessing other public resources may require licensing (such as operating a motor vehicle on the public roads), ham bands require licenses. That doesn't make them some sort of "exclusive club."
Okay, so you don't care about ham radio, great.
Put some thought into this: Just how many times are you willing to pay for broadband infrastructure? You think this stuff is going to be cheap? You think they just plug a router in at the 'ole power plant in New York and you plug a modem into the wall in California? Get informed.
This would not be a trivial undertaking. They'll need to add equipment at the powerplants, add equipment in the neighborhoods, modify or replace existing equipment (like transformers) to make things compatible, etc, etc.
Who's going to pay for all that? YOU, stupid. Even if you don't get their service -- because you DO pay a power bill, don't you?
Do you also pay a cable bill or satellite TV bill? You're paying for broadband there, too.
How 'bout a phone bill? Got one of those? Guess what? You're paying for broadband there, too.
And if you *do* actually pay for broadband (to really get it, I mean) -- you're only going to pay one of these providers, right? So the other two or three will whine that they're not getting enough demand. This type of thing is already happening with the telcos and cable companies -- they're spending big bucks to build the infrastructure and not getting the ROI.
So we're going to add yet another utility to the mix? How is that going to help? More competition, lower prices? Bah -- infrastructure ain't free. These companies are already bleeding all over the place with the current level of competition. *That's* why broadband isn't as readily available now as it should be.
-- CP
As currently implemented, the two cannot coexist. If you actually kept up with the ham community or even just read the story or watched the video, you would know this is much more than a "perceived threat" to HF communications.
The ARRL is probably much better off not having you as a member, you don't think or research before you speak/write/post. You, sir, must be a tremendous asset to those around you.
Most of the situations where HAM was considered critical involve disasters.
If the disaster itself didn't already take out the power lines then the power company can surely be contacted to disable their BPL service for a while. And it would be included in a clause in the contract you sign up when you order the service...yada yada...
But I have a quesitons, does all this interference happen at the small wodden poles, or the huge mainline supertall metal towers holding the power lines up?
What about underground wires? do they generate the interference too?
Definitely a major problem. Not surprising though. Power lines are huge antennas. Whenever you put any kind of alternating current though a wire it will generate a propogating EM wave at the same frequency. Right now, all the power lines are "broadcasting" at 60Hz (50 for those of you who do not live in North America), but you start puting other frequencies in there, it will start broadcasting those too. I'm sure the FCC would have something to say about this.
And no doubt they will since ham radio operators have documented interference problems.
-R
Imagine out in the boonies, and some tornado comes along and wipes out an entire trailer park. Hams are usually the first ones in to establish communications and let the world know what's going on. (happens all the time) Now...imagine the guy trying to dig a signal out of THAT mess. I wouldn't want to do it, and it could, in some cases, result in lost lives. There are better ways to distribute bandwith, and this one isn't it. And yes, I am a Ham.
BPL should never be approved for three, sinple reasons; 1. Injecting high frequency RF onto the power lines at levels higher than the limits specified in 1989 WILL cause interference across the entire HF bands (actualy lower levels will do that). This is illegal according to FCC Part 15. Any device doing this can and will be shut down. 2. An entirely legal amateur transmitter, say a beacon transmitting 100 watts at 28.2MHz, in a common suburban backyard will render the local BPL system useless; and according to Part 15 the BPL system MUST accept this situation. 3. It is entirely unnecessary for the utilities to use the 2 to 80 MHz band for this purpose. The FCC has set aside 435MHz at 5GHZ for the Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure. This is more than 5 TIMES the bandwidth BPL could ever hope to use in HF. Systems using U-NII can be deployed TODAY (google Motorola Canopy); are already being used for broadband internet access in several communities and require no further action from the FCC. All the utilities have to do is hang U-NII nodes on the power poles at 2 to 10 mile intervals, depending on local geography. All that remains is to convince the powers that be of the obvious.
Muhaha, Ham radios always get the shaft. First the FCC cans the Land Mobile act, and now you get interference from new broadband. Oh well, I'll have my HDTV and high speed internet, I'll be set. And once Satellite phones become mainstream, all these pidly cell phones will become walky talkies. Godzilla could be stomping through the city and your satellite phone would still work.
that video doesn't "show" anything that the fcc could use. they'd need to get a specan and capture a screenshot for the fcc to be able to make any use of it. Isn't ham operated in the general use spectrum? it's gonna be mighty hard to get them to filter their signal
noU
good experimental music !
Was the most boring 6 minutes and 34 seconds of footage that I have ever downloaded and then absent-mindedly left running in the background in my entire life. It was shaky bad-image video of static. And at the end some vaguely Star-wars like noise. Really, I believed them when they made the claims. I didn't need to sit through that. Even 10 seconds of that would have convinced me.
Come to think of it, how do we know they're not just tuning to a random static-frequency and recording it?
Send us more videotape! Better documentation, and longer!
------
"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, in Jan. 2000
Hasn't anyone here heard of
IRLP - Internet Radio Linking Project
www.irlp.net
This is one of the coolest things ham radio has done recently. Basically you attach a simple ham radio repeater to a broadband connection, run some software, then let it fly.
Hams then connect to the repeater with their radios. Use the numeric keypad to send commands (DTMF tones) and the interface will connect to another repeater via the broadband connection.
So a ham with a handheld can connect to a repeater in Chicago, enter the numeric code for California, and both repeaters will be connected. so anything said in chicago is broadcast in California and vice versa. This makes long range communication very easy with extremely low power radios. If anyone here runs a repeater or is part of a radio club I would highly recommend adding this ability to your repeater.
KB9WNO
Chicago2600.net more than a lifestyle, its a survival trait.
Yep, every RC item you have or would like to have operates within the 2-80 mhz range. Toys around 23Mhz (I think), Airplanes at 72Mhz and cars/boats at 75mhz. 50Mhz is reserved for Ham licensed RC..
Oh, and the Airplanes are secondary users. They also split a few of our frequencies to control large crans and construction equipment..
I've sent this article on to Dave Brown, president of the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) to try and get their lobbing clout in action also.
Personally I'd hope that your proof would be your operator skill. I'm about the same age actually - got my license around the same time - did it because I wanted to :).
I'm an extra, and I took the exam when it was "lowered" to 5 (its actually 18 wpm character rate with 5 wpm spacing) but (and I don't mean to brag or anything) I can still operate code faster than 13 wpm because I practice - which anyone could do even if they lift the requirement.
DUH, you could see this coming from a mile away. Remember the powerline trials in Europe? Of course not, in America everything is different :). Want to bet they will reach the same conclusion as with the trials in Europe only a couple years later?
The video quality is unbeliavably crappy, and you'd think they'd learn to bittorrent video-download links, especially if they end up on /. :-)
:-)
I would be more convinced with a plots of the power spectrum or just sound samples of demodulated bands.
Anyway, it was known from the very start that power line communications will generate insane amounts of interference. The lines have no shieldings whatsoever to prevent RF. It isn't a problem when transmitting power (well, you do transmit at 50Hz/60Hz and the harmonics, but that's really low frequency, and can be filtered out (or even equalized out, since it's trivially predictable)) but when you push a broadband signal down those plain copper wires it goes straight into RF too.
HAM'ers are a bit late to complain now. FCC who makes the rules has already approved interference limits for BPL-systems and the ones that are in use comply with the rules. IMHO, FCC should take a hint and ban BPL, but who knows how much BPL-companies are paying FCC...
VoA is not the only station people can listen to on HF. There is A LOT of English language stations. And in may other languges too. Just now I listen to Radio Liberty in Russian, see www.svoboda.org. It is one of the best stations I can find anywhere. Polish Section of RFE would be quite good too but unfortunatley it was the only section of RFE/RL (www.rferl.org) which completely ceased operation in 1996. In Radio Liberty I have a lot of information about politics and culture in the world and in Russia. Not much about my country but I am interested anyway and Russia is a very important and interesting country for me. Svoboda gives unbiased news e.g. about Chechnia in a style far from black propaganda of Radio Moscow. On the UHF in Warsaw there are practically only music stations. Some stations have few hours of political news sometimes, usually still mixed with music. When I randomly switch Svoboda on I have much over 50% chance to find something interesting. It would a pity to have Liberty jammed again, today by some PLC. I tested one PLC solution recently. It would be difficult or impossible to listen do Radio Liberty in a building where somebody uses such connections. They use Internet for their broadcasts too but it is not practical for many listeners.
http://www.eham.net/articles/6138
And DSL or Cable is almost always a much better, cheaper and more realiable alternative.
Power lines are a really bad environment for data transmission for many reasons:
To overcome a least some of these problems, the transmission power had to be raised to a level where they started to cause RF interference, also exceeding the allowed limits of RF Power emission.
IMO Data over Powerlines will never be a commercial success and is a brainchild of the .com era where everbody and his sister wanted to be part of the internet craze. There were even plans for IP over gas and water tubes, but I think is was dropped because the new tubes are made of plastics.
I can not see a niche between Phone, DSL, Cable and Wireless that might justify this abuse of powerline and pollution of the RF spectrum.
p.
Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.
If these are the results of small test areas at a lower power than they want for nationwide service. What kind of results are we going to get when the whole country is saturated with these signals? I've read that it also interferes with not only the hams for that matter as well. Have there been any environmental studies regarding human/small animal/insect constant exposure to these signals pouring out over unshielded powerlines?
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
Oh My God. I just watched that ARRL video. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.
For the uninitiated, a mid-scale meter reading on an HF receiver typically corresponds to about an S-9 level of received signal strength or higher. That is some incredibly powerful man-made interference; positively overwhelming.
Most incredibly it was not just a single frequency here or there nor even confined to a single band; it was zapping and chirping all over the spectrum at once!
By a similar argument, how many people still drink fresh water? Why haven't they moved over to something a little more modern, such as aspartame cola? Let's just go ahead and pollute all the lakes in your area, since nobody in their right mind would drink water today anyway with all the available alternatives.
Don't like the smell of dead fish? Hey just plug your nose!
Then there will be no interference from powerline internet anyway. Because when the power is off...the Internet over powerlines wont work. DUH!
Technology is obscuring the real issue in regard to polution of the Ham frequencies by anything. The FCC (aka Government) gives all of us free acces to a certain part of the radio spectrum. All other communication channels, other than smoke signals, are owned by vendors. If you talk on the power lines, the power companies own you. The FCC would love to sell off the Ham frequencies to private companies, or lock them up for goverment use. If these public resources become poluted by private vendors, we all suffer. Ham Radio was the original Open Source for communication. Wireless Geeks should learn from the masters and add their digital contributions to freedom of speach. Speach is not free if there's no way to communicate.
If bouncing signal off the Moon or meteor trails is not modern enough for you geeks then I don't know what is.
Dumbass.
Broadband PowerLine (BPL) is an access technology. It is somewhat experimental and is being used to connect a service provider, like a Telco CO that is several miles from your home or business, to your home to provide broadband access. This technology needs a good deal of power to send signals over the Medium Voltage (~16 kV - think "finger of God") lines over great distances. This is the technology that the HAMers are upset about. This is also the technology that the FCC is looking at.
HomePlug Powerline technology is a home networking technology used to distribute the signal from your home gateway or music server to other devices or PC's in your home. HomePlug uses OFDM, a technology that puts a comb of carriers across the spectrum. With a comb we can then turn off and notch out the HAM frequencies. HomePlug goes from 4-21 MHz and has deep notches to prevent interference with the HAM bands in that space. A large number of FCC and CE approved HomePlug devices are available in the market (look for the NETGEAR Wall Bridges at Circuit City or the Devolo devices in Europe).
Just wanted to speak up because there's been a lot of confusion here. Intellon or HomePlug can put a whitepaper on this on their to-do list.
thanks,
James Mentz
Senior Applications Engineer, Intellon Corporation
Gee. Too bad.
If it wasn't that bad, now we have farm animals complaining that powerline broadband is interfering with them.. What's next..
Jansky is credited with the first radiotelescope, although he didn't do much. Grober is the father of radio astronomy.
maybe this would be their cue to abandon ham in favor of web broadcasts... hey, and they'll get broadband out of the deal. ever try to download porn on ham radio?
mmmm, sweet suculent ham...
Woah, woah, woah. TCP/IP is NOT a derivative of X.25. They are almost completely different protocols that serve very different purposes. For one thing, in the classic OSI model, X.25 covers the physical, the datalink, and the network layers whereas TCP is the transport layer and IP is just the network layer. You run TCP/IP over X.25 or AX.25 much in the same way run it over Ethernet, ATM, FDDI, etc.
I've read large parts of the CCITT X.25 standard. While it is packet-switched, it's VERY different from IP.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
We had all this in Germany a few years ago! Noone speaks about BPL in Germany nowadays! It was too expensive and too unreliable when many BPL customers are connected to BPL. But now some small Boxes for "Inhouse BPL" are spreading on the Market, just like the Intercom that connects to your normal 110V Socket the new Version hast Ethernet Jacks on it! Although the Signal-Level is much lower than on commercial BPL you can imagine how id will add up if your whole neigborhood uses this crappy boxes! .......And whats about encryption?
Every Wi-Fi user complains about encryption!
Whats on BPL or these Home-BPL Boxes!
NOTHING! Even 128-Bit WEP is more secure!
IPsec Tunnels would be a solution vor BPL....but arent there millions of Wireless Accesspoints WITHOUT encryption?!?!? :-)
BigBrother is watching you even more....
73.... fm Germany DG 3 JKB
as a uk ham & working for an ISP i suggest all this energy is directed to the FCC (US) & you make some noise where it can be heard & not on a forum
Who was there on 9/11/01 helping to provide communications where the telephone network had buckled under the load? Oh yeah! That was us, the ham radio operators in the U.S.
And how about the time that the local telephone CO was flooded from a water main break, killing all local telephone service in the City of Schenectady, and most long-distance service for hundreds of miles around? Who was it that patrolled the city on crime and fire watch? Yep, that was us!
And who provides a means during hurricanes and firestorms for people to reach their loved ones and let them know they're OK? yep, that's us!
The internet is less important. I say that as a user of both, and as someone who has been an Internet user much longer than a ham.
KC2IDF
www.wavefront-av.com
Here's a compromise. Give us all our broadband over power lines. In a natural disaster that cuts communication, it'll also cut power, and with it any interference with HAM. Bingo - problem solved.
But really, expecting millions to forego broadband access for the hobby of a few isn't realistic or fair.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
test
If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
can transmit data by hand at ~10 baud (yes, faster than some early modems! 13wpm = ~10 baud)
As an aside, the very first teletype I used ran at 110 baud; the thing printed to old thermal paper and was connectecd to a PDP-11/34. Heh, those were the days. OK, so I'm poking through old threads and noticed this; thought it was cool and wanted to coment. Take care, Caleb. --M
People forget that the first "facsimile's" were sent by HAM's... cool to hear you're a HAM - thanks for being a nice guy, too, btw. I guess I misjudged ya bigtime. I gotta work on that - please forgive me :-)
Caleb
Do you realize how expensive that is?
Do you realize how low-capacity it is?
Face it - HF communications is the only option for people located in remote areas that are not filthy rich. (Example: I know some people in the Peace Corps. For many of them, there is only one way to communicate with friends and family back home - The local ham with an HF rig.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?