Microsoft Money Leads To Street-Legal Porsche 959s

Ken Greenebaum writes "Soon there will be a 'new' Porsche 959 racing down highway 520 in Redmond. This article in autoweek describes how Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren teamed up with Bruce Canepa to make the 959 street legal. Best quote: Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."' They modernized and increased the performance of the already super car to: 575HP making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds with a top speed of 215MPH."

Comments

tagging bills together

[zeoslap]

The thing that struck me about this article was how screwed up the US political system is whereby bills are all bundled together, I won't even get into the fact that with enough cash you can get your own laws considered. This particular law was denied twice (which in of itself should see it permanently denied) but on the third try it was ushered through because the bill it was riding on was a sure fire winner, lame.

All that being said it's cool that they finally got the cars into the US, only wish I could afford one :)

Re:tagging bills together

[16K Ram Pack]

It's also pretty screwy that someone went to the bother of trying to get a bill passed, with all the inherent costs so that a few multimillionaires can drive ludicrously fast cars.

Still, I suppose some senators won't have to worry about where to get their designer suits and computer games from now on.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

As somebody who works in the political sector, I regard "bill bundling", as you call it, as a good thing. It's just another way to iron out compromises in the often bitterly partisan legislative process. Without riders, there'd be no way to make sure that a party would stick to a deal and pass some unpopular legislation.

In this case, I don't see what all the fuss is about. A car going at 100 mph isn't any less likely to kill anyone than a car going at 215 mph. Personally, I'm somewhat envious of Bill Gate's ride...perhaps that is the motivation behind this outcry?

- W G

Re:tagging bills together

[FJ]

Bundeling unrelated things together in congress is nothing new. It is a favorite way to get pet projects and a way to manuver things in your way. Both parties do it and all presidents hate it.

They tried to change this a few years back by giving the presedent a line item veto. It was declared unconstitutional because it gave the executive branch too much power over the legislative branch. The only way to change it legally is for a constitutional amendment.

The funny thing is that most state governments allow for a line item veto.

Re:tagging bills together

[andrewski]

You, sir are on crack. A car going at 215 MPH is much more likely to kill somebody. That much less reaction time.

Riders are also bad because there could be cooperation and not pork. Riders are 95% pork.

Re:tagging bills together

[switched4OSX]

That Billy boy can get some lawyers, buy some politicians, and get his way is nothing new. Granted this is just a semi-innocent way of getting his fun little toy legal. However, since this just continues to show a pattern in his M.O., we should worry about what the next law will be that he doesn't like.

Re:tagging bills together

[JimBobJoe]

The thing that struck me about this article was how screwed up the US political system is whereby bills are all bundled together

This is a peculiarity of Congress. States usually have constitional requirements for single subject bills (with names that identify what the bill does, none of this "Save the babies and orphaned Hamsters act of 2003" shit) as well as line item veto.

I happen to know that several states, like my Ohio, and Illinois, get pretty mean on enforcement...courts have no problems throwing out laws simply because they were codified under a bill that had multiple subjects.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

that with enough cash you can get your own laws considered.

They're called private bills, and they outnumber the public bills by a large margin.

If you have the attention span to watch CSPAN, which I doubt, you'll see in December, before the Christmas recess, "technical corrections."

An example of a technical correction. Say there's a tax bill raising capital gains to 40%. A technical correction would be adding the words "but not gains resulting from the sale of Corel stock." Which would be sweet, considering I sold 10,000 shares at 32, bought at 1.3.

Or passing a law making someone a citizen without going through the naturalization process, that happens all the time and is a major source of hard money.

Dummy up, chump.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir are a typical kneejerk armchair expert who has never even watched 215 MPH on TV. Your shitty budget transport is FAR more likely to kill someone - that much less engineering.

Re:tagging bills together

[rpjs]

In the UK our bills have a short title, which is what they'll be known as if passed, and a long title which sets out what the law is for. The bill may not contain anything that is not consistent with the long title. To allow enough flexibility to get around nit-picking, a bill's long title will usually end with "and for conected purposes."

Seems to work quite well. "Pork" is simply not a concept in British politics.

Re:tagging bills together

[frankie_guasch]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. A car going at 100 mph isn't any less likely to kill anyone than a car going at 215 mph.

There is one thing you miss. Maybe someone hit by a car would die anyway. But the driver and the passengers, are more likely to have an accident and later suffer from harder wounds and die in an accident at 215 mph than at 100mph.

Recently, a country in Europe, I think it was France, lowered the speed limit by 10 or 20 mph. The number of accidents decreased.

Re:tagging bills together

[danila]

And also how screwed the US bureacracy is. I don't think this issue is that important. It would be much better for everyone (taxpayers, the economy, everyone) if the custom official just took 10 grands (like they do it in "more corrupt" countries) and let them import the car compared with spending hundreds of thousands on lobbists and lawyers with ultimately the same result.

Re:tagging bills together

[Goth Biker Babe]

Car safety is interesting. It's not a simple thing to solve as there are so many dependencies amoung numerous factors.

a) Speed does not kill. If it killed then people would be dieing all the time in F1 and World Super Bikes. There is an increase in risk but nothing like you would expect. Inapproprate speed kills. 70mph on a dry road with little traffic is safer than 50mph in fog in the rush hour.

b) There's primary safety verses secondary safety. For example there are some types of accident where a motorcyclist is better off than a car driver as the biker will come off and slide down the road where as the driver is contained. Also on a motorcycle you're more likely to be able avoid a collision. My bike, which is relatively slow, will accelerate to 100mph and brake back to zero within 15 seconds. Together with it being thin and it's handling means that I'm more able to avoid accidents than in a car.

I should also introduce risk compensation theory here. A Volvo or SUV should, in theory, be safer than, say a classic mini, but the driver either consciously or unconsciously knows this and so drives less safely.

c) Personal responsibility is another factor. US air bags are far more explosive than european ones because in Europe we assume that drivers and passengers are wearing seat belts. US car manufacturers assume their customers are not. In fact new US regulations have killed the classic lines of cars like Aston Martins as they now have to be designed so that idiots who drive without safety devices don't hurt themselves too much.

d) Experience of drivers. Although technically the UK national speed limit is 70mph provided coniditions are right speeds up to 100mph are sort of tolerated on motorways. If you ask any driver over here, most would say they've driven at atleast 80mph, and probably 90mph at some point or other. And yet our road death toll is proportionally far less than the US and motorways are the safest roads in the UK. In Germany on the autobahns speeds of 150mph are not unknown. It's because we're used to these speeds.

e) The vehicles themselves. Sports cars are always safer than regular cars or SUVs at the same speed because they have better brakes, better handling and better acceleration. Accelerating out of trouble on a road (to avoid a collision) is just as valid as braking to avoid one and in some cases more advisable. It's similar which sports bikes and sports/tourers.

Judging from what I've seen on these US reality COP TV shows the average European car has better braking, handling and acceleration than the US equivalent. The narrators express horror at vehicles travelling at speeds which are normal in Europe.

Arguments against high speed cars are generally flawed because in the end a car is as fast as you drive it and if you're rich enough to own one you can afford to go to track days at a local circuit (which are very popular over here and great fun).

Re:tagging bills together

[EnglishTim]

Have you never read Private Eye?

;-)

Re:tagging bills together

[digitalunity]

I drive a pimped out 88 Toyota Supra Turbo with over 370 hp. I've never gone 215, but I've seen others do it in person(Top Fuel dragsters at Woodburn dragstrip in Oregon state). I've also taken my supra to 167 MPH on Interstate 84. I didn't kill anyone. Not even close, because I am a smart driver. When you are the only one on the road, suicide is the worst that can happen.

Re:tagging bills together

[Angram]

70mph on a dry road with little traffic is safer than 50mph in fog in the rush hour.

50mph during rush hour? On a foggy day? Where are you from and what are you smoking? Try 50 feet/hour. If you're lucky. And driving away from the city. On the sidewalk.

Re:tagging bills together

[Scratch-O-Matic]

In the UK our bills have a short title...

Here in the U.S., our bills are required to have titles involving children, widows, or sick veterans.

Re:tagging bills together

[TomV]

In fact new US regulations have killed the classic lines of cars like Aston Martins as they now have to be designed so that idiots who drive without safety devices don't hurt themselves too much.

In fairness, this is nothing new - it was US safety regs in the 1970s that put that vile plastic bumper onto the front of Pininfarina's beautiful MGB bodyshell.

TomV

Re:tagging bills together

[bluGill]

I regaurd it is a bad thing. I don't approve of big government, and bills riding along don't stop anything.

As for ensuring the compromises works: ever heard of the prisoners diliema? A politition can burn you once on a compromise, but after that you won't compromise with them, which makes it much harder for them to get anything done. They will soon learn who keeps promisses.

Re:tagging bills together

[cetan]

How do you think the DMCA was passed??

Re:tagging bills together

[micromoog]

Or terrorism.

Re:tagging bills together

[hey!]

First, let me say that I have several friends who race or simply like to drive fast on a track.

I have no problem with them having a street legal car that will do +200 MPH, because I know they drive at normal speeds to and from the track. Occaisionally they "cheat" a bit, but for the most part they get it out of their system on the track. I remember when on of my friends got his RX-7; he drove like a nitwit for a few months, until he started going down to the track, and realized how idiotic it is to endanger other people who are just trying to get from point A to point B in once piece.

I'm not sure whether I'm for or against this; I have a feeling that the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Speed does kill -- or at least speed differentials. People who make the arguments you have always talk like they're the only people on the road. It's safer for a family sedan travelling at 60mph to share the road with a nitwit driving at 100MPH than to share it with a nitwit driving at 200MPH. The roads are simply not adequately engineered to support these kinds of speeds, much less the speed differentials. Even responsible drivers like my friends sometimes drive with excessive speeds, and the nitwits are going to do it every chance they get.

I'd support making these cars street legal if there were some way to control them off the track. Suppose the car's computer recorded when it travelled at > 100MPH, and at inspection time this would be compared to records kept at tracks. Travelling at speeds exceeding 100MPH off the track would be punishable by permanent license revocation and seizing the car. Perhaps there would be a special key that would enable full performance. I beleive some high performance cars have this, to discourage joy riding by valet parking attendants.

Re:tagging bills together

[rco3]

With the obvious clarification that Pininfarina was only responsible for the MGB-GT - the Roadster was designed in-house, and Pininfarina was called in when they couldn't figure out how to make a decent hardtop version. He made the windshield taller, and that's about it.

Your point is well-made, though. Not only does the rubber bumper look awful, but the ride height had to be increased so that the bumper was high enough. THAT killed the handling, so the RB was really a double insult.

Re:tagging bills together

[PainKilleR-CE]

What one might really have to worry about is that even the richest man in the world needed 10 years and who knows how much money to get a law passed that would allow him to get his car off the dock.

One little thing with a hell of a lot of restrictions (meeting EPA standards, mandatory less than 2500 miles per year, etc), and it took 10 years to make it happen.

I wonder why something like that is so hard but extending copyright into eternity seems so easy (maybe it wasn't and I just missed the fact that Disney spent 10 years working on that; I know Disney got control of their own air space after something like 40 years simply because it was slipped into anti-terrorism legislation). The most bass-ackwards laws supporting corporations seem to get in quite easily, but something to support individuals (though rich individuals, as this only really applies to extremely expensive cars) takes a decade.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

As somebody who works in the political sector, I regard "bill bundling", as you call it, as a good thing. It's just another way to iron out compromises in the often bitterly partisan legislative process. Without riders, there'd be no way to make sure that a party would stick to a deal and pass some unpopular legislation.

I'm sure that as someone in the political sector, you *do* support bill bundling, because without riders, how would you get a 4% pay increase in an auto safety bill? or a school funds bill? Sure, they have their uses, but riders are also how congress loves to vote itself unwarranted pay raises. Our political system has just gotten so fucking lame. I suspect that's because it requires that politicians work for the people, not around them.

Re:tagging bills together

[untaken_name]

That Billy boy can get some lawyers, buy some politicians, and get his way is nothing new. Granted this is just a semi-innocent way of getting his fun little toy legal. However, since this just continues to show a pattern in his M.O., we should worry about what the next law will be that he doesn't like.

I hope it's the drug laws. They cost us more in money and lives than any other laws we have.

Re:tagging bills together

[Zeinfeld]

In the UK our bills have a short title, which is what they'll be known as if passed, and a long title which sets out what the law is for. The bill may not contain anything that is not consistent with the long title.

That is not the reason for the difference. In the UK the government controls time in both houses of parliament and introduces almost every bill (except for private members bills and 5 minute rule bills). The government has such a tight control on the legislature that there is nothing to be gained by adding an ammendment to an unrelated bill. If the government does not like the ammendment they can either strip it out in the Lords or gut it on the floor of the House.

There are cases of ammendments of this particular type making it into law but they would have to be attached to a relevant bill, in this case it would probably be a transport bill. What you do not get is ammendments to bills that direct money to particular interests such as a tax break for Haliburton or (Bob Dole's favorite) Archer Daniels Midland.

In effect the situation is much closer to what you would have in the US if there was a line item veto provision.

It is also possible for a private bill to get passed. This is a major undertaking but occasionally happens, usually for something like the channel tunnel, building of a railway line or such.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

"The narrators express horror at vehicles travelling at speeds which are normal in Europe."

but if you know who frank zappa was he said it best in a song about the t.v. "im a tool of the government and industry too! for i am destine to rule and regulate you."

Re:tagging bills together

[austad]

I'd support making these cars street legal if there were some way to control them off the track. Suppose the car's computer recorded when it travelled at > 100MPH, and at inspection time this would be compared to records kept at tracks. Travelling at speeds exceeding 100MPH off the track would be punishable by permanent license revocation and seizing the car. Perhaps there would be a special key that would enable full performance

Yeah, while we're at it, we should put exploding collars on everyone's neck and blow them up if they get out of line. Maybe we should also let the government decide what is acceptable to look at on the internet.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You don't think that most people have some common sense? You punish the lawbreakers after they decide to do a crime, not before. Policing your citizens in such a manner is pure Gestapo.

Re:tagging bills together

[bigdavex]

Experience of drivers. Although technically the UK national speed limit is 70mph provided coniditions are right speeds up to 100mph are sort of tolerated on motorways. If you ask any driver over here, most would say they've driven at atleast 80mph, and probably 90mph at some point or other. And yet our road death toll is proportionally far less than the US and motorways are the safest roads in the UK. In Germany on the autobahns speeds of 150mph are not unknown. It's because we're used to these speeds.

Can you expand on what you mean by proportionally? Is it possible that a lower number of accidents in Europe are due to Americans driving cars everywhere for lack of public transportation? Or are your numbers for per mile driven?

Please don't take COPS as a reference for American culture. Crap, the weathermen act like a snowstorm is some sort of national emergency. And all that means is that sensationalism sells TV ads.

Re:tagging bills together

[j0nkatz]

I drive a pimped out 88 Toyota Supra Turbo

HA HA HA YOU ARE A RICER BOY!!!!!

Re:tagging bills together

[hey!]

Yeah, while we're at it, we should put exploding collars on everyone's neck and blow them up if they get out of line.

Having your drivers license revoked is not the same as capital punishment. We do it for drunk drivers, after all. In our society, you are presumed responsible enough to drive a car until you by your actions prove otherwise. This is exactly how it should be.

You punish the lawbreakers after they decide to do a crime, not before.

Which is exactly what I propose to do. Under my proposal, you could buy a car that could go any speed, so long as you drive it responsibly when on public roads. You can drive as insanely as you wish on a track.

Personally, I speak as somebody who has travelled at these speeds on a public road. One of my friends, in his post-purchase nitwit phase, showed off by taking me to over 160 in his new sports car. Think about this: the road was engineered reasonably to support 80mph or so. On the stretch we were on, you had about a half mile to one mile of visibilty ahead. In terms of reaction times, that gives you about 20 - 40 seconds. At 160, you only have 10-20. I was not amused. He, however, was completely transported. He was experiencing excitement not danger. This person is a sober, responsible, sensible person. These machines are almost diabolical invitations to extreme speed; no normal person could get in one and not at some point give it a little push. Once he started going to the track, he stopped pulling stunts like this. On the track he could take his car to its limits in the high 190s, so there was no reason to screw around at 160 on the highway.

You don't think that most people have some common sense?

Uh, do you mean a prioir or judging by the evidence?

Re:tagging bills together

[adrianbaugh]

Hoho, you think our public transport is good? You should come and use it some time...
Anyway: as a UK driver I have to say that the single most dangerous category of driver is the idiot who drives around everywhere at 40mph (when the speed limit is generally 60mph). This kind of behaviour, while sensible and laudable in appalling weather conditions, is dangerous at other times because the conditions allow people to drive perfectly safely at the speed limit. I've seen many, many otherwise perfectly good, safe drivers become raging psychopaths behind such people, and while you can make the argument that we should just sit there and take it and be calm, it's a fatuous argument; you could equally well say we should be calm about drivers who sit 3 feet from our tail, or who continually honk their horns and flash their lights. The truth remains that in all these cases - the tail-sitters, the horn-honkers and the 40mph brigade - it is totally antisocial driving behaviour. If they're too old or unconfident to drive safely at the speed limit they should have their driving licenses taken off them.

Re:tagging bills together

[Nexus Seven]

In deaths per mile travelled by car, the UK has one of the lowest road death rates in world - about half what it is in the US. Despite the fact that:

1. The population density is more than 10x that of the US.
2. higher speed limits than the US.

Now obviously, Americans travel further by car than Brits, so that'll have a major impact. However, from the Anecdotal point of view of a British ex-pat living in the US I have to say that the road layout design in the US is appalling. I was also shocked by how easy it was to pass the drivers test.

Re:tagging bills together

[CharlieHedlin]

The DMCA is larger than most provisions that get tacked on to other bills.

The DMCA was a bill of its own.

Re:tagging bills together

[nightsweat]

I wish this was +1 Funny, but it's unfortunately +4 All Too True.

Re:tagging bills together

[rpjs]

Oh yes.

We have plenty of corruption in the UK, but we really don't have the pork-barrelling like they have in the US, although governments sometimes try to direct spending to marginal constitunencies, it doesn't compare to what goes on in the AMerican system.

Due really, as another poster has pointed out, to the executive's control of the legislature and the relative powerlessness of our MPs compared to US congresscritters (I love that word!).

Re:tagging bills together

[Henry Stern]

Bills are bundled together and 100-dollar bills are bundled together.

Interesting...

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

You have public transportation to look at... you're one step past us.

Re:tagging bills together

[Carbonite]

I've also taken my supra to 167 MPH on Interstate 84. I didn't kill anyone. Not even close, because I am a smart driver.

Fine. Keep trying to convince yourself that driving 167 MPH was smart. When people wonder why auto insurance rates are so high, they should read the parent post.

Re:tagging bills together

[saden1]

While they are at it, I'd like McLaren F1 please.

Re:tagging bills together

[UnknowingFool]

US air bags are far more explosive than european ones because in Europe we assume that drivers and passengers are wearing seat belts. . .

I think part of the reason for this is the difference in design goals. In Europe cars are on average more expensive compared to the average working person's salary than in the US. Also Europe has much better mass transportation. With higher gas prices, this leads to the fact that fewer cars per capita are in Europe. The cars that are sold are also higher in quality. A Ford Escort in Europe is almost like a luxury car in the US.

With that said, the car manufacturers in Europe seem to place more emphasis on better design and safety. In the US, safety is done because it is mandatory. Typically cars are designed just to meet the US safety requirements.

It doesn't surprise me that most air bags are poorly designed. When it became federal law that new cars must have air bags, some car manufacturers put air bags that just met safety requirements.

However, not all car manufacturers are alike. Some car manufacturers have done extensive testing to ensure that their air bags are safe. Two things that are in good air bag design:
1) Tethers. A good air bag should deploy quickly but not explode into the person. Good air bags have tethers that restrain the air bag from deploying too far. The idea is to let the person crash into the air bag and not the air bag into the person.

2) Speed thresholds. A good air bag should not in low speed, low impact crashes. We've all seen Hollywood parodies where air bags deployed when the driver bumped the steering wheel and the air bag deployed. But that is unfortunately happening. In fender-benders some air bags have deployed killing the occupants.

What are some car manufacturers that have these "good" air bags. Not surprisingly, Mercedes Benz (the pioneer of the air bag) and BMW have these types of air bags. Honda and Toyota also have these air bags.

I can personally attest to Honda's air bag. I was with my brother in a 10 mph crash in his Honda. The fender was badly damaged. The air bags didn't deploy. A few years later, he missed a stop light and ran into a car at 20 mph. The front of his car was smashed. The air bags deployed.

Re:tagging bills together

[bigdavex]

In deaths per mile travelled by car, the UK has one of the lowest road death rates in world - about half what it is in the US.

Do you have a reference for that? (Serious question, not a challenge.)

[SNIP}

I was also shocked by how easy it was to pass the drivers test.

Woof. Yeah. I agree whole-heartedly. One of the questions on my drivers test (and I'm not making this up) was this:

If you're in the country, and you can see that no cars are coming for some distance, do you still have to stop at a stop sign?

Since lives are at stake, it would make sense to require people actually drive around and demonstrate competence.

Re:tagging bills together

[Gumber]

Politics is about compromise. That sickens a lot of people who think they know the best way for everyone, but I think its a good thing.

Bundling is one way compromise is acheived. It provides a mechanism for forcing an issue and ensuring that pols make good on the deals they strike.

Unfortunately, bundling is also used to sneak a lot of shit through.

Re:tagging bills together

[red floyd]

Or:
"xxx" Promotion (see CBDTPA)
So-And-So's Law (see "Megan's Law" or Sonny Bono CTEA)

Re:tagging bills together

[b!arg]

And here in Washington State if you propose an Initiative for the ballot, it must only have one part to it. If there are two, it will generally be ruled as unconstitutional. As well it should. Just ask Tim Eyman. It would be nice if the same were done with the U.S. Congress. Perhaps stop some of the bloat in the budget. Although, they may just concern themselves more with their pet projects and less with actual legislation.

Re:tagging bills together

[ssstraub]

I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) air-bags have the speed threshold.

My father is a service director at a GM dealer and I believe he said the threshold on GM airbags is 30 mph. That was a few years ago, so things might have changed since then.

This accomplishes many goals:
-Safety
-Expense of replacing airbags. (They are damn expensive. There is actually a black market for them!)
-Lower insurance premiums because airbags don't add to the cost of low-speed collisions.

Re:tagging bills together

[Nexus Seven]

I can't find the per-mile stats in my limited surfing time (I'm at work)

The per-capita stats are here. The per-capita stats will be even more skewed by the longer journeys in the US, though.

Re:tagging bills together

[UncleGizmo]

Disagree on your 'if a bill is denied twice then it should be permanently denied', since one can only imagine the politics that could be played with this. But you are correct - tagging bills together also leads to egregious behavior, witnessed here.

Bigger question - why does our government care so much about importing these cars anyway? If they are modded to fit the current EPA / safety standards, what's the big deal?

Re:tagging bills together

[anvilmark]

or "homeless"

--
The *love* of money is the root of all evil.

Re:tagging bills together

[pmz]

I'd support making these cars street legal if there were some way to control them off the track.

I believe these are called traffic laws, in conjunction with trees and cliffs.

Re:tagging bills together

[pmz]

Is it possible that a lower number of accidents in Europe are due to Americans driving cars everywhere for lack of public transportation? Or are your numbers for per mile driven?

Also a valid question: what are the differences in training and licensing in these other countries?

Re:tagging bills together

[cayenne8]

"Experience of drivers. Although technically the UK national speed limit is 70mph provided coniditions are right speeds up to 100mph are sort of tolerated on motorways. If you ask any driver over here, most would say they've driven at atleast 80mph, and probably 90mph at some point or other. And yet our road death toll is proportionally far less than the US and motorways are the safest roads in the UK. In Germany on the autobahns speeds of 150mph are not unknown. It's because we're used to these speeds. "

Well, I generally go 40-50 mph in the city, 70-85 mph highways in town....and 90-100 mph on interstate highways. No problems so far...just make sure you know how to handle a performance car, you HAVE a performance car..and a good radar detector...

:-)

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

> a) Speed does not kill.

Sure it does not - acceleration does. (usually negative).

Re:tagging bills together

[einTier]

The F1 wasn't hard to federalize, and there have been examples over here almost since the introduction. There's a guy in Dallas who uses one for his daily driver.

Re:tagging bills together

[i_am_nitrogen]

I've a friend who drives a 2001 BMW. At one point driving on very straight, very recently paved roads in the desert, we reached speeds of 120MPH. Going the other direction on the same road, when I wasn't riding with him, he reched 135MPH, the point where the engine stops accelerating because of the onboard computer. There were no other cars within miles. If any other cars were visible in any direction, he immediately slowed down. I think that's about as close to the track as you can get without actually being there.

Re:tagging bills together

[2short]

And when you THINK you're the only one on the road...

Re:tagging bills together

[2short]

Funny story:
A friend of mine who was a state trooper used to go down to the local track on the open to the public "race-what-you-bring" night. He'd park a mile or so down the road and listen to the tire squeals as people leaving peeled out of the lot.
One squeal - he'll be speeding when he gets to you, but wait for a bigger ticket.
Two squeals (starting and shifting into second) - Get the radar gun ready.
Three squeals - Nice car. Floor it along the shoulder now, so you'll be up to speed to pull out behind him and pop on the siren. Fine will be very large.

The relevant thing about the story though - this was a small rural road, and absolutely everybody leaving the track was doing 10+ over the limit a mile away.

Re:tagging bills together

[sporktoast]

I happen to know that several states, like my Ohio, and Illinois, get pretty mean on enforcement...

Um, sort of. The latest Ohio budget bill passed with more than 100 riders attached that had next-to-nothing to do with the actual budget. And Ohio lawmakers defended their actions by claiming that most of the riders were such little (but necessary) things that they would have otherwise been unable to bring them up for consideration independently.

In order for a court to "get pretty mean on enforcement", some aggrieved group has to have the money to bring a challenge before that court. This has happened in the past (shooting down the school vouchers program) but never happens with any uniformity (expanding Ohio's senior citizen discount program, adding a judgeship in a county, allowing a small township to merge the park authority into the township government) because there are just too many flies to swat. So the legislators will keep doing it, even though the constitution specifically prohibits it.

Re:tagging bills together

[devaldez]

By the logic displayed above, legislation to limit soft money spending, safe drinking water, pollution limits, and just about everything else should have been permanently denied. Most bills are defeated or mangled the 1st time through a committee in Congress.

I won't even go into the victim mentality expressed in the whining about the relation between cash and influence.

Re:tagging bills together

[King_TJ]

Actually, I thought it was a great story of one person's tenacity winning out over government red tape!

From your comment, I'm assuming you're not really that interested in high-performance automobiles - but please keep in mind that many folks are.

This was a case where the barrier to entry was so high, only the richest people could afford to be bothered with it - but similar situations happen all the time with foreign cars desired by American citizens.

I thnk the law that they finally got pushed through is a sensible one, and should help out many more people than just Bill Gates and his friends. Most of us might not be buying street legal, rare Porsches any time soon - but this same law would help make it possible to obtain a number of more inexpensive collector cars.

Re:tagging bills together

[chiph]

Judging from what I've seen on these US reality COP TV shows the average European car has better braking, handling and acceleration than the US equivalent. The narrators express horror at vehicles travelling at speeds which are normal in Europe.

That's just John Walsh. He's one of those "law & order" personality types. It gets a little irritating sometimes, to where I've got to turn the volume down.

Chip H.

Re:tagging bills together

[WD_40]

" In Germany on the autobahns speeds of 150mph are not unknown. It's because we're used to these speeds."

I completely agree. People usually scowl at me when I tell them I drive over 100mph on a regular basis. They assume it's very dangerous just because they wouldn't feel comfortable driving at that speed, however they're perfectly fine driving at 70mph. Why? Because they're used to it. They know what it takes to drive safely at that speed.

I am used to driving 100+mph because I've done it for a long time. I know what it takes to drive safely at those speeds, and I don't drive that fast if conditions (traffic, road, weather, etc) would make it unsafe.

Re:tagging bills together

[LamerX]

Friend of mine hit a tree at 70mph in his Honda. The airbags didn't deploy. My father also works at a body shop and he sees a very high number of Hondas that have front end collisions at high speeds and the airbags hadn't deployed. Not sure if they have some kind of sensors that only go off in certian types of wrecks based on where the car gets hit. But my dad says the Hondas airbags seem to go off the least.

Re:tagging bills together

[jratcliffe]

I disagree with point d - while the UK has a very low level of road fatalities, Germany's rate is higher than that of the US, and France's is 50% higher, on a deaths per km driven basis, according to the good people at the German Bundesanstalt for Strassenwesen, and their International Road Traffic and Accident Database.

One of the few data points that really exists on this is the US state of Montana, which eliminated speed limits on its interstates during the daytime (went to "safe and prudent") at the end of 1995. In 1995, fatalities were 2.28 per 100 million vehicle miles travelled. In 2001, they were 2.28 per 100 million vehicle miles travelled. There were fewer accidents on the interstates, but the higher overall speeds meant that a larger portion of those accidents resulted in fatalities. So, data seems to say: number of accidents is positively correlated with speed variance, liklihood of fatality from a given accident is positively correlated with absolute speed levels.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

You have my condolences on the loss of your friend.

Re:tagging bills together

[miltimj]

In Europe cars are on average more expensive compared to the average working person's salary than in the US ... The cars that are sold are also higher in quality. A Ford Escort in Europe is almost like a luxury car in the US.

This tells me that Europe has worse quality cars, if a Ford Escort is deemed a luxury car..

Re:tagging bills together

[jratcliffe]

Correction: in 2001, Montana highway deaths were 2.30 per 100MM vehicle miles travelled, not 2.28.

Re:tagging bills together

[turbotalon]

Um, yeah, that's a pretty messed up system! Imagine that, we reward the people who have been SUCESSFUL businessmen, instead of HANDING things to the loosers in our world, we reward hard work. Man, that sucks! sheesh

Re:tagging bills together

[ChristTrekker]

Having your drivers license revoked is not the same as capital punishment. We do it for drunk drivers, after all. In our society, you are presumed responsible enough to drive a car until you by your actions prove otherwise. This is exactly how it should be.

But drunks' have their licenses suspended after the offense, not before. Your suggestion is akin to making all drivers stick an alcohol monitor in their vein before their car will start. You assume that people will break the law, and pre-emptively take action. That's not "innocent until proven guilty" in my book.

Which is exactly what I propose to do. Under my proposal, you could buy a car that could go any speed, so long as you drive it responsibly when on public roads. You can drive as insanely as you wish on a track.

No, that's not what you're proposing. See above. You install breathalyzers on the ignitions of drunks after they've offended. You should install your speed-regulators in the cars of speeders only after they've offended. There's a difference.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

Your frind is a dickhead. He was in a car that he had no experience driving and took it to a speed that was unsafe for public roads while you were an unwilling participant. If you base your proposal on your experience with your friend, I understand why you would propose something so f'ed up.

I drive a 911. It's older and not much faster than most new cars with a sports package but it should do about 142mph at wide open throttle. But I haven't confirmed this. I haven't been over 100 in this car because I haven't been on the track with it yet. The combination of me wanting to test the limits and the rating of the car have not seduced me into doing something as stuipid as what your friend did with you. You should find better friends. And stop blaming the car. Cars make people speed the same way spoons make Rosie ODonnel fat.

Re:tagging bills together

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

a) Speed does not kill. If it killed then people would be dieing all the time in F1 and World Super Bikes.

1) Those drivers are more skilled.
2) Traffic is going one way, and it's predictable.
3) The tracks are simple and have been practiced on many times.
4) The tracks are clear of obstacles, and have been designed to slow down and take impacts.
5) The driver wears far more safety gear, and in the case of a car, the car is much more safe aswell.

Saying that speed isn't a problem on public roads because it isn't a problem on the track is utterly ridiculous.

Re:tagging bills together

[Goth Biker Babe]

Also a valid question: what are the differences in training and licensing in these other countries?

Well in Britain it's as follows.

At 16 you can ride a 50cc scooter that cannot do more than 30mph. You can ride this on a learner licence but have to take a days training (known as Compulsary Basic Training "CBT") before you're allowed out on it. Once your 17 you can move up to a 125CC 12BHP bike on that learner licence.

At 17 you can drive a car or ride a motorcycle up to 33bhp provided you have a full licence. For either the motorcycle test or the car test you have to have sat the theory exam first before the practical. For the motorcycle test you must have CBT before you can learn for the test.

If you are 21 years old you can ride any bike provided, you have either had a full bike licence for two years, or you have taken accelerated training which is an intensive full time course in the presence of an instructor on a motorcycle of atleast 48BHP.

I wanted some riding experience before graduating on to big bikes so I took CBT and then road a 125CC bike for a few months on a learner licence. I then returned to the training centre and took a week's accelerated access course on a 500CC motorcycle. I actually failed the test at the end and had to return for one more day a month later and passed. I then bought myself an elderly Suzuki GS550 which I rode for a couple of years before progressing on to my current bike, a Kawasaki Zephyr 1100.

Re:tagging bills together

[Geek of Tech]

(To the tune of the Beatles "Baby you can drive my car")
Bill can I drive your car, duh, da ,dah, da, duh

Okay mod me down now.

Re:tagging bills together

[Lord_Breetai]

A Ford Escort in Europe is almost like a luxury car in the US.

This tells me that Europe has worse quality cars, if a Ford Escort is deemed a luxury car..

It should in fact tell you that a European Ford Escort is built to a higher standard than it's US equivelant. Afterall it was compared to a US luxery car. But that's just what I got from reading the comment you're quoting.

Re:tagging bills together

[codifus]

When he referred to the statement that speed kills, he meant that if you take the statement literally. Go over 100 mph, you die. Simple as that. I agree with him. Speed does not kill, stupidity and speed do. Lord knows that US drivers never want to use their indiciators to show everyone they want to change lane. I guess it's an ego thing, using your indicators show weakness, and forget about safety. Same thing goes for seatbelts. Most drivers can't be bothered, it doesn't look cool etc. He also went on to compare US public roads to English and German public roads. So, in that regard, your argument is utterly ridiculous.

Re:tagging bills together

[Slack3r78]

European Escort != US Escort. They're different cars. The original poster was pointing out that the cards that are sold in Europe are built to a more exacting standard than US cars are.

The most blaring example of this is the fact that the car sold in the US as the Acura TSX is nothing more than a standard European Accord. Remember, Acura is supposed to be Honda's luxury line. That should tell you something about the difference in quality of the cars sold in the US versus those sold in Europe.

Re:tagging bills together

[Anonymous Coward]

A 190mph RX-7?? Not bloody likely!

Re:tagging bills together

[Slime-dogg]

And in Illinois, people just lie about where the money is going. Just look at the old Governor, and how he managed to rope a couple million dollars to fund his neice's horse show.

There may not be legislative pork, but I'm pretty sure that Illinois lawmakers don't know half of what the money in a bill is going to be used for.

Re:tagging bills together

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

When he referred to the statement that speed kills, he meant that if you take the statement literally. Go over 100 mph, you die. Simple as that.

I doubt that, because it's so obvious. I think he meant that people think that speeding is a major cause of accidents, and that if that was the case, there would be many more people dying at races, since they travel a lot faster (coicidently, there are usally plenty of crashes at races).

Speed does not kill, stupidity and speed do.

I don't care if you race F1s for a living. If someone else hits you, you're worse off. Also, roads and conditions can still catch people off guard, and people still make mistakes, no matter how good you are. When you are speeding, the consequences of those mistakes go up dramaticly, increasing you chance of dying. Hence the phrase "speed kills".

Part of the problem is that everyone who goes fast, thinks they're skilled. Most are not.

He also went on to compare US public roads to English and German public roads. So, in that regard, your argument is utterly ridiculous.

Not really, because I was only replying to that point.

Re:tagging bills together

[LamerX]

Well thanks, but the seatbelt is what saved his life... :)

Billy doesn't want another run-in with the law

[Anonymous Coward]

Else he'll end up on The Smoking Gun... again.

Re:Billy doesn't want another run-in with the law

[Anonymous Coward]

It's BECK!

Oh wait...

well

[toddhunter]

suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."
How about spending that crashing and testing time on windows instead???

Re:well

[Scorchio]

But they're trying to find something that will crash faster...

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

'Cause crashing windows is for free, and lord knows they feel the need to burn through cash...

Re:well

[justzisguy]

What do you call Longhorn on Itanium 2's?!?

Re:well

[ice-monk]

So you have to test if they crash? In my experience they just crash

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

It's that kind of attitude - that corporate officers should spend their personal time and money on company matters - that's leading to all the stress, burnout and mismanagement at the top. This can't be good for a compnay, and it's no doubt been a factor behind notorious disasters like Enron & Worldcom.

I say let Bill Gates do what he wants in his personal time and he'll be a much better CEO during company time.

- W G

Re:well

[pgregg]

It strikes me as ironic that America should have such crash-test rules (with America manufacturing the least safe cars in the world EuroNCAP) - just look at how the US models compare to their European and Japanese counterparts in each category. The only non-US company to fare as badly in safety as Ford/GM(Vauxhall)/Chrysler is Kia.

It also occurs to me - why not have the same crash tests before they let Boeing sell their next jumbo model? ;)

Re:well

[Nyxs]

But we already crash test that for free.

OH MY GOD!

[Krach42]

OH MY GOD! They did WHAT to those poor Porsches?

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

They're only crappy old Porches. Don't get too worried. It's not as if they're high-tech or truly innovative.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[noewun]

I'll take the car made by the company which has won Le Mans sixteen times.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

Oh well. Each to their own I suppose.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Krach42]

Oooo... now I like rotary engines as much as the next guy... but wanton destruction of sports cars is something that I generally frown upon. Whether they're Porsches or not.

Member, PETSC (People for the Ethical Treatment of Sports Cars)

Re:OH MY GOD!

[cowlum1]

crappy old porche??????
it may be old but far from junk, Id much prefer
a 959 to a rx8

wait 10 years and tell me if you still feel the same
way, i know i will.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you're going to buy an over-priced, over-engineered piece of backwards technology, why don't you just get a damned Ferrari instead? If they're anything like Fiats used to be they'll disolve in the first shower of rain. Typical Italian crap.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Comparing Mazda to a Porsche? What next, comparing Toyota to Lamborghini?

Re:OH MY GOD!

[gl4ss]

yeah it really sucks.

you know, the ms guys could have done the whole thing much easier, just build a private track to drive the damn cars(wait, they probably have already).

there's like zero benefit of having it *Street* legal. for your private track you could get some alfa 33's, ferraris, jaguars, fords(gt 40's) and other le mans legends and heck, you could probably buy some old formula 1's too(heck, make it into a museum when you're not driving and make everyone happy) , and just fuck being street legal... and avoid destroying them for something silly. old cars like them aren't just a matter of $$$, they're like graphics presses of some great artists, sure there's many of one type(usually) but the supply is still limited and should be considered so.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

Comparing Mazda to a Porsche?

Yes. I make no apology.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

You should.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[cowlum1]

So your idea of italian cars is based on fiats
well then i must make my idea of russian
engineering based on the lada my brother had years ago.

every car has a comprimise.. like toyotas are boring
yet reliable. American cars a both (kidding)
italian cars are often beutiful

pls dont reply this comment if your a kid
whos idea is that a car is that it must look
like its going to make a soft moon landing
and has ten billion horse power because
all that ads up to nothing.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

cant argue with that.

I prefer dead women over live one's!!!!!!!

would you say my taste is poor?

haha you cant

each to their own/beuty is the eye of the beholder--> this is why i use win 95

runaway

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was being sarcastic. Fiat owns Ferrari. Most countries in the world have made their fair share of good, bad and indifferent cars over the years. I was making the point of the racial prejudices attached to cars and their countries of origin.

Take your statement for example: italian cars are often beutiful

Plenty of cars are beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Italy is often associated with sophistication, designers, high fashion, food, you know?

That's just a stereotype like everything else.

Never mind. It's lost on this audience.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

even mazda would admit most of its cars
are not porche build quality - except the salesmen

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

I guess so. Some of us prefer real sportcars, whereas others prefer japanese wannabes.

Flamesuit = ON

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

message boards and sarcasm dont mix well

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

I've just ordered an RX-8 (hooray!) but I can't abide the thought that nobhead has destroyed several examples of a truly classic car just for kicks. The really depressing thing is that the 959 is probably an inferior road car to the current generation 911 Turbo, and thus should be allowed to go to the great car museum in the sky unmolested. Shit, why doesn't dickbrain just buy himself some houses in other countries where the 959 IS legal (like French chateau, an English stately pile or a German castle?) and drive them there? What's he gonna do next, buy the Nurburgring and put speed humps on it?

What a fucking WANKER, this makes Larry Ellison's attempted purchase of an F-16 look positively reasonable.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

No he shouldn't.

Porsche have made many fine cars over the years, but Mazda have done so also. The second generation RX-7 was BETTER than the contemporary Porsche 944, and certainly more technologically innovative. The last RX-7 was one of the purest sports cars ever offered for road use, and still has a very loyal following. And, though Porsche has won Le Mans more times than anyone else, don't forget that Mazda's 787B won against all the odds too - no other manufacturer has ever won it with a ROTARY ENGINE.

Great engineering is great engineering whether done by Germans, Japanese or Botswanans.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

I've just ordered an RX-8 (hooray!)

Cool! When are you getting it? Did you get to test drive one? Which one are you getting?

What's nearly as cool, but not quite, is this new All-British super-hero

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

yeah like an american made viper that can go faster on less horsepower(not that you cant get one of the custom ones out of nebraska with insanely more power)
I'd only need one viper,but I'd need two porches;one to sh*t on and one to cover it up with.just overglorified volkswagens.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

The Viper is a friggin Chrysler (Or Dodge. Whatever), 'nuff said. It might have the raw power, but it doesn't have the refinement nor the quality. And why make a big deal about it being American made?

Porsche has nothing to do with Volkswagen. And besides, I would take a Volkswagen over Chrysler anyday.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

When? Who knows? Mazda UK STILL don't have them (and all it takes is a 1000 deposit to secure one...).

No test drive, but I could always sell it on at delivery mileage if it's anything less than the GREAT car we're all expecting it to be.

I love Angle Grinder Man. I once pushed over the Suzuki bread van of some bastard who'd clamped my lovely Citroen BX GTi (what a great car!).

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

Idiot.

It's crap like that that makes me want to move back to the 'states and drive around in an Evo VII ZERO FIGHTER finding idiots to burn off.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Ummm, what does this have to do with living in Europe or States? I mean, we were talking about Japanese car! I just have hard time comparing Mazda to an established and respected sportscar-manufacturer like Porsche. Well, judging from your comment, you are just another ricer ;).

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

Citroen BX GTi? I knew someone who had one. It was J reg. and 1.9 litre. Went like poo off teflon shovel. I still pine for my old RX7. The engine went at 127,700+ miles and I couldn't afford to fix it (or put petrol in it any more). I ended up giving it to someone who wanted a project. Sob.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

oh, give it up. Mazda is not even CLOSE to porsche. Your rotary engine argument does not hold water because nobody else makes a ROTARY ENGINE.

I have nothing against Mazda, but you CANNOT compare it to a Porsche. Let me guess, Kia is better than a Ferrari?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Loser.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

Mazda IS an established and respected sportscar manufacturer.

I don't know what a "ricer" is, but how many WRC rounds have Porsche EVER won? How many have Japanese manufacturers won?

Tell me again about SPORTS cars?

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

even mazda would admit most of its cars are not porche build quality - except the salesmen

Give it a rest. This is 2003, not 1953.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

My RX-7 (efini) is getting ready to go into it's cover for the last time as an everyday car. When the RX-8 arrives it'll be demoted to a "classic" and insured and polished accordingly.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

Your rotary engine argument does not hold water because nobody else makes a ROTARY ENGINE.

Really?

Re:OH MY GOD!

[entrox]

Q: How do you pronounce "DaimlerChrysler"?

A: The "Chrysler" is silent.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Doctor Memory]

Oh please -- the RX-7 was a pathetic copy of the Porsche 924. And wonder why they got so fat and ugly with the "series II" cars? It's because they failed miserably to copy the 944. It's a good thing they were cheap, or they'd never have sold.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Lord_Dweomer]

No, he shouldn't. The RX7 r2 twin turbo is one of the nicest street legal sports cars ever. Aside from its incredibly sleek lines, this car had perfect 50/50 weight distribution and handled like a dream on the track. The rotary engine was a work of art. Super efficient at cranking out the ponies. So efficient in fact that the engine tended to well......blow up after a little while.

And thus was the downfall of the RX7. Although, rumor has it that mazda is bringing back the RX7 in all its glory since the performance of the RX8 isn't close to the old RX7.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[i_am_nitrogen]

Honestly... I think people are just feeling buyer's remorse after purchasing a car for a bit more than most upper middle class Americans will pay for a house (Ferarri $250k, upper middle class house $220k (where I live)). So, they become defensive, and their ego swells to compensate for the gaping hole in their heart. Nobody should ever pay more than $60000 for an automobile.

Respond with words, not points.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

my,nothin gets by you,yeah its a dodge.
yeah,the power train and suspension are FAR more modern and refined than the porchewagen.
In fact if you had any history with porches(like i do)you would find several models on the road out there with volkswagen engines and transaxles.
you take your volkswagen anyday.Vipers are the essence of what fast and sporty are about.
now if you wanna run around euro trails and ditches porche may work.If you wanna race or drive like satan get a real car.
CLUE:bill gates likes porche.nuff for me in spite of the other shortcomings of porche.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

Never before have I heard 959s described as a "crappy old Porches [sic]."

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Mobius20]

MAZDA is established and respected? Maybe. Compared to Porsche? Are you high? Porsche has been racing and winning for more than 50 years - including 4 wins in Monte Carlo and 2 in the Paris-Dakar Rally. Japanese manufacturers hardly had a presence in rallying before just recently in the WRC. I mean.. I'm confused. Mazda? Racing history? Umm..

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Krach42]

Of course they're crappy Porches... have you ever tried to set up a rocking chair on one and drink some lemonade? ...

Neither have I, but I amagine it wouldn't work out too well.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Again, why are you talking about Volkswagen? Porsche has NOTHING to do with Volkswagen for crying out loud!

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

I don't know what a "ricer" is

Ricer is someone who "drive around in an Evo VII ZERO FIGHTER finding idiots to burn off."

Mazda IS an established and respected sportscar manufacturer.

Mazda is an established maker of family-cars which occasionally makes some sporty cars as well.

how many WRC rounds have Porsche EVER won?

Zero, since Porsche doesn't do WRC. How many has Mazda won? I don't think Mazda is one of the giants of WRC either. And WRC has very little to do with the cars you can buy in the dealership.

Hell, Peugeot and Citroen have done really well in WRC lately, and I don't consider either to be serous sport-car manufacturer!

How many have Japanese manufacturers won?

Quite many. So? Does that somehow turn those makers of family cars in to serious sports-car makers? No. Like I said, WRC hyas very little to do with the cars they make for the general public

I find it REALLY strange that some people have hard time accepting that some others rank Porsche way above the Japanese manufacturers when it comes to sportcars.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[turgid]

Last I heard, mine was rusting away in a shed in Essex. It was a MkII with the 12A engine. I was only 22 when I bought it. The insurance was astronomical. I figured they'd become rare and expensive one day so I might as well get one while it was possible. It was worth the financial hardship for the 2 years I had it.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

porche has a rich history with volkswagen.get an education.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Yes, they did cooperate IN THE PAST (VW made some engines for Porsche if I remember correctly, or vice versa)! And yes, Porsche Cayenne and VW Touareg share the same platform, but those kinds of deals are pretty common and they do not signify any kind of deeped relationship. There is no cross-ownership between Porsche or VW, neither of them controls the other.

Get an education, please.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

i never said anything about control.
cooperation between engineers and design methods are enough.
nonetheless bang for the buck,horsepower,handling,speed and the higher percentage of young supple tail i'll attract with a Viper as compared to porschwagen is so far superior its hardly worth concidering the european alternative.Viper is just too cool to get schooled.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[Alan Partridge]

And just what the hell IS a sportscar? To my mind, a Subaru Impreza WRX IS, a Porsche 911 Turbo ISN'T.

Anyone can buy a Porsche and take it to a trackday, but if there's no manufacturers works team racing it, it's just another luxury coupe.

There's enough bullshit spoken about the supposed "purity" and "heritage" of marques like Porsche an Ferrari to sink a tanker, but sports cars are NOT just faster and better handling road cars, they are cars designed to COMPETE in motorSPORTS. The Porsche 911 was NEVER designed to compete, it was always a road car that was adapted to competition, and it hasn't done much outside one-make series for many years.

I have nothing against Porsche, they make extremely high quality performance cars, but to sit there and idly write off the performance products of the world's most advanced car builders (ie the Japanese car industry) is just ignorant snobbery.

You'll be telling me that you rank Harley Davidson's 'bikes above Honda's next.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Oh for crying out loud... Both the Touareg and Cayenne are top-notch vehicles (that is, if you are in to SUV's). But you refuse to consider a Porsche because Porsche and VW have cooperated in the past and they co-designed the platform of one of their models? But you have zero problems buying a car from Chrysler, a company that has made cars like Neon and the like? Oh yes, some cooperation with VW means that Porsches suck (even though in reality, cooperation with VW is very limited), whereas the fact that most cars Chrysler makes are sucky does not matter at all?

Let's see... Porsche: some cooperation with a maker of "normal" cars: Big no-no! Chrysler: They actually make several crappy cars: Yes please! How's that for twisted logic?

I guess Ferrari sucks as well, since they are owned by (shock and horror!) Fiat? Bugatti and Bentley suck as well since they are owned by Audi which in turn is owned by VW? Of course, Audi sucks as well, eh?

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

quit being a spaz.
I'm singling out Viper.
If i chose to own any other chrysler product it would have to be late 60s to early 70s muscle.
I still dont like itty bitty volkswagen like porsche.I dont like their sameness,their dull sportiness,their tiny euroness or their absolute waste of money for the bang you get.
You and bill gates just go ahead and drive your porsches,date,let your tongues interlock.
(yeah as a matter of fact lil plastic Audis suck too)

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Volkswagen-like Porsche? Good god man, are you blind or stupid (or both)?! you are seriously not making any sense. you whine that Porsche is no good because they have cooperated with VW (FWIW: VW makes cars that are alot better than equivalent cars made in USA). Yet you have no problems with a car that is made by a company that makes several crappy car-models. In one case, cooperating with "normal" car-manufacturer is enough to disqualify certain brand. But on other case, the fact that the manufacturer makes crappy cars is not enough to disqualify it. Double-standards, that's what you have.

But hey, who am I to tell you what cars to buy. If you prefer a frigging Dodge over a Porsche, then go right ahead. you have already proven your idiocy with your Porsche == Volkswagen-comments.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[flyneye]

get over yourself.
lil plastic eurotrashcans with their plastic timing gears, fragile transmission bands,disposable bic lighter engines will never compare to our rugged engineering(mercedes makes a nice diesel tho)
Porsche is and always will be a small car stamped out of foil,with much more obsolescense built into their replacable parts than dam/chrys.
now then pisshead,I PERSONALLY HAVE WORKED ON AND DRIVEN ALL THESE CARS.I HAVE SO MUCH MORE INSIGHT THAN YOU.YOU ARE JUST A JOKE WHO CANT LEAVE HIS DADDYS COMPUTER ALONE.GET A LIFE AND GO DRIVE YOUR CIVIC TO SCHOOL,KID.

Re:OH MY GOD!

[10Ghz]

Confirmed: This isn't about the cars themselves. This is about you being a flag-waving jingoist. "American cars are always superior to European cars!". Uh-huh. Heh you are really pathetic. "I know so much more than you do, so shut up!". Sad and pathetic. But like I said, go right ahead and drive your Dodge. No-one is stopping you.

I would have thought...

[tarquin_fim_bim]

they'd have been crash testing Fords.

And no Skyline?

[Dancin_Santa]

Microsoft Money doesn't help me buy anything. It does tell me that I'm way over budget and will be bankrupt within 3 months of the start of the fiscal year.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Second Vampyre]

skyline's are already available, you big dummy.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Anonymous Coward]

At current specs? Not that I'm aware of.

Re:And no Skyline?

[tuba_dude]

It does tell me that I'm way over budget...

There's a reason for that...you bought Microsoft Money...either that or you didn't and it's sending info to the BSA right now.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Second Vampyre]

you want the new ugly skyline? you are the first person i have met who liked it. you must be some kind of weirdo. otherwise my good buddies at moterex can hook you up with the good stuff.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Anonymous Coward]

The new coupe is awesome. The new sedan sucks.

Your good buddies at motorex only have 2 piece of shit, used, old, crapfests listed on their site.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Second Vampyre]

this is true. good thing i don't like skylines like yourself.

Re:And no Skyline?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that i dislike the new skyline... but cmon
its good looking in a tamiya/space rocket sense

its definatly not a beutifly crafted sculpture/shape

its got looks designed to sell to kids and
yuppies

Car conesuors (spelling?) have NEVER rated the looks
only the tech

Re:And no Skyline?

[Frac]

It does tell me that I'm way over budget and will be bankrupt within 3 months of the start of the fiscal year.

Why? Did you tell MS Money you're planning to buy one copy of MS Windows XP and MS Office XP?

Re:And no Skyline?

[adrianbaugh]

That's because you've spent all your money on Microsoft software, you dolt :-)

Re:And no Skyline?

[Xeth]

Buying MS Software will do that to you...

Bah....

[AugstWest]

Get a 914, you pansy.

Re:Bah....

[REDNOROCK]

Ok. Sounds like a viable option to me!

Re:Bah....

[i.r.id10t]

Or a 356... coincidentally, today is Ferry Porsche's birthday...

Re:Bah....

[nelsonal]

I was always partial to the 968s, now I think if I ever buy a "supercar" it will be an NSX, I love honda's approach to driving.

Re:Bah....

[afidel]

Just watch where you park it. Any bodywork on an NSX will be in the thousands and can only be done in a handfull of garages around the country that are Acura certified for the NSX. A friends father had one and a caddy at the country club slammed the trunk without checking to see if the clubs would clear the lid. They didn't and the country club's insurance had to pay around $5K for the repairs, needless to say that caddy was out of a job.

Re:Bah....

[AugstWest]

ack, I meant the 917.

Microsoft money buys laws

[vought]

The article comes right out and says that Gates' money paid for a high-priced attorney to work directly with NHTSA, EPA and lawmakers to fashion legislation that would permit their nice little rich guys' plaything. It's a cool car, but I have trouble working up sympathy after reading this story. Why does anyone have trouble believing Gates and Co. wouldn't do the same thing when it comes to matters involving billions of dollars? That antitrust case sure went out with a whimper, didn't it?

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Wyatt Earp]

What has always struck me as idiotic is that the 959 wasn't street legal in the US while other, non-crash-worthy super cars like the Ferrari F40 and F50, Pantera and Shelby Cobra have been.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

if we are really lucky mebbe they will buy their way into a face plant with a tree at 200 MPH

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[WalterSobchak]

Would you have a list of the various legal and non-legal "non-crash" cars? What are the requirements.

And if I please may rant a little bit: The 959 is good enough for the Autobahn, it is good enough for you. Crash data for the car exists, the Kraftfahrtbundesamt has strict specs for giving the "street legal" verdict.

Alex

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[abmurray]

What has always struck me as idiotic is that the 959 wasn't street legal in the US while other, non-crash-worthy super cars like the Ferrari F40 and F50, Pantera and Shelby Cobra have been.

Whether or not a car is 'street legal' in the US is entirely up to the manufacturer. The car must adhere to emissions and safety regulations. The car must also be crash-tested and all relevant information throughly documented. There's a host of hoops the manufacturer must jump through that can add significantly to the cost of the car.

It's not the government that was keeping the 959 from being street legal, but Porsche itself.

--
a.b. murray

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Afrosheen]

Amen to that. For years, people aware of the Nissan Skyline have wanted it in the US. Nissan never brought it here because it would require a left hand drive conversion as well as crash testing and other 'street legal' documentation. So what happened? Some rich dudes got fed up and bought some extra Skylines, crash tested them, presented the data to the proper authorities, and BAM, legal Skylines. There are limited trim levels and models that are legal, rather than the full range, but that's not really an issue. The GOOD ones are legal.

Read more: www.skylinegtr.com

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Dancin_Santa]

Here at MotoRex quilty is job one.

Yeah, mine to.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[singleantler]

Top supercars often come in very short runs, in this case 230 cars. Even for something so expensive, it probably wasn't worth Porsche putting the work in to change them for US import. They could sell that many in Europe and to other countries who would look at the crash test and emmissions data required in Germany and decide that they could accept that it was equal or more stringent than their own standards.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Afrosheen]

I just emailed those tards about the english on their site. I think it was one of those 'yeah my cousin knows HTML!' type of jobs. The site looks like crap in Konqueror...that tells you something right there.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[big_gibbon]

From the story, it doesn't look like it was crash data they were worried about:

Since the 959 could not meet U.S. bumper or ride-height requirements, it was going to be imported as a "race car" rather than a street-going model.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

At first I thought they were making reference to their attraction to children, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they are idiots.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

What slashbots won't like is that although the cars you mention were obviously peers to the 959 they were, as you say, street legal. Which begs the question: how? Well, big companies like Ford and Ferrari (Fiat group) were able to sneak these designs in by disguising them as street cars in order to qualify for the prestigious titles and races they were built for. So on one hand it's good that a group of individuals has the same access to our lawmakers that a multinational has; on the other hand it's Satan himself, Bill Gates.

Oooh, what a quandary for the hive mind.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[toopc]

The 959 was produced at just over 200 cars as that was the minimum number required by FISA for homologation in Group B rally category. They were actually sold at a loss to Porsche only so the 959 could be raced. Ironic in that Group B racing was short lived due to some deadly accidents, and the 959 was never used as intended.

Read here for more info.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Lumpy]

you obviousally dont understand the obscenely rich.

the Ferrari is a poor-man's wannabe toy to them.

they want to drive sonething on the street that has the same effect as the piles of money in their entryway has.... "Ohhh lookie me!"

that is the only reason that Gates would buy a few of thme to crash.

too bad the man isn't anywhere as bright as Howard Hughes was... all that monay and he spends it on worthles crap like his broken house and cars...

Build something that will make the world stand up and go Holy crap!

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[BiggerIsBetter]

Going entirely from memory, wasn't it something to do with bumper height? I think that making it street legal would've screwed the cars design, and probably the aerodynamics. This was years ago, so maybe laws have changed allowing the 959 to be considered as legal now.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Marc2k]

As someone else posted, and as is stated in the article, the 959 was not barred from importation due to poor crash test results, it was merely due to bumper and height restrictions imposed on all cars imported into the US. RTFA. That was the whole problem, the 'sacrificial car' thing they figured *would not* work, so they didn't do it.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

"too bad the man isn't anywhere as bright as Howard Hughes was... all that monay and he spends it on worthles crap like his broken house and cars..."

Yeah, maybe he should spend his money on a giant plane made of wood that would only fly once.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[WalterSobchak]

As far as I know the story, Porsche was "reluctant" to give 4 (four) cars (total value about $1.000.000) to whoever decides what is a legal street car here.
While Bill apparently was almost willing to buy them too, the story seems that it was not necessary.

IANACI, so I have no real clue.

Alex

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Kraftfahrtbundesamt

Boy, those Germans have a word for everything!

- Homer J.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

hey dipshit... do you know ANYTHING about the spruce goose?

Howard designed aeronautics as it is today, there are things in the goose that even today are engineering marvels.

Let's see you make a pane the size of a C5A out of wood and make it fly AND be a seaplane.

and it only flew once because of the arseholes in washington. and it flew once because he BROKE THE LAW to do it. he was told specifically NOT to fly it.

get a clue before you post you idiot.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Matey-O]

That they were writing to the 96.7% of the rest of the browser market? Or that they were spending more time working on cars than working on the website? It's not like they lost a sale to you.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

The only race the 959 won was the Paris-Dakkar, they did race it in GT but the Ferrari F40s were much, much faster on road courses and the Porsches never won a race.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[spaceyhackerlady]

Going entirely from memory, wasn't it something to do with bumper height?

Yup. Read the article.

The 959 isn't the first car to be banned from U.S. shores because of bumper height - VW of Brazil declined to export their luscious SP-2 for the same reason. And what they did to later MGBs just wasn't pretty...

If the car is over 15 years old it's not too difficult to import it in to Canada. My main issue there would be choosing between a Tatra 603 or a Citroen CX. :-)

I know some people who imported a Rover SD-1, but only as a donor car to make a V8 MGB. Zoom!

...laura

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[sparty]

The bumper requirements include crash testing. Europe has different bumper standards thanks to US insurance companies, who wanted to make sure that they could repair sub-15 MPH damage more cheaply.

According to /Volkswagen Tuning for Sport and Competition/, the difference in bumper specs makes no difference at higher speeds, and furthermore the Euro bumpers look a lot better on a lot of European cars. They're also substantially lighter, for better handling and gas mileage.

Anyhow, I agree with some of the posters pointing out that we have a clear case of a rich guy buying the laws he wants; however, I also happen to think that those laws are rather reasonable. I'm one of them car folks who would really like to see a lot more European cars that we don't get. Heck, I'd be kinda happy if we all went to European lighting standards.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[pmz]

It's not the government that was keeping the 959 from being street legal, but Porsche itself.

What's that? The government increases the barriers to adding competition to the market, and, then, you blame Porshe?

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Even worse, that it's turning such an awesome machine to be a billionaires' plaything and museum display. Al Holbert couldn't get one into the country to race with. Pro Rally and Pike's Peak championships should all have an asterisk attached: "*EPA assisted: Porsche 959 not allowed to compete".

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[mabhatter654]

Yeah, but the law is only to protect american automakers anyway. It's really to keep out all the VW bugs, Minis, etc that the rest of the world drives...supercars are just a nice catch too [keeps the cops happy] Allowing execptions for quarter-million dollar sports cars is really a moot point. After all, the CAR is worth more than most personal injury suits nowdays even if you did have an accident! I think the owners would drive very, very safely to protect their investments...

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[BiggerIsBetter]

Read the article??? This is Slashdot!

V8 MGBs are nice, and I'd like to see that done to a late model mid-engined one. I recently spotted a site describing dropping a Rover V8 into a Miata (MX5). That sure looks like a fun ride. Might be something to think about when I get tired of the 5L stroker in my old Range Rover... ;-) BTW, I know a bloke who put one in a Mini too. Yikes!

FWIW, I'd go for the Tatra. Citroens are too common. :-)

The Fast and the Furious III

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates in a Vin Diesel like role? The influence, the respect, the mystery...

Robert Love as the guy undercover as the Porshe employee investigating Microsoft's under-the-table dealings with Porshe, to see if more than "Microsoft Money" is involved...

Natalie "Hot Grits" Portman as his love interest who is also a Porshe racer...

Steve Ballmer, who screams "On your mark, get set, go" over and over like the crazed monkey he is...

Darl McBride running around, making sure the cars are using street-legal parts else pay him a special fee to make sure their cars don't "have problems" before a big race?

Who knows... It wouldn't be any worse than if Hollywood tried to make this!

Re:The Fast and the Furious III

[VanillaCoke420]

Bill Gates in a Vin Diesel like role? The influence, the respect, the mystery...

I think it would be good for geeks worldwide to have our ubergeek to be an actionhero...

Natalie "Hot Grits" Portman as his love interest who is also a Porshe racer...

Hm, I would like to add in Jessica Alba, Jennifer Garner and Katie Holmes. If that's not possible, I would just keep them for myself then :)

Steve Ballmer, who screams "On your mark, get set, go" over and over like the crazed monkey he is...

Have to tell you, those filmclips that he appeared on were just pure gold. I'm wondering if his coca cola was spiked with ecstacy or something.

Re:The Fast and the Furious III

[forgoil]

Steve Ballmer is my hero. The fact that the same guy (the great John DiMaggio) played both Ballmer (Pirates of Si Valley) and Bender (Futurama, a.k.a. the best TV series, ever.) should clue you guys in.

Re:The Fast and the Furious III

[Anonymous Coward]

> > Bill Gates in a Vin Diesel like role? The influence, the respect, the mystery...

> I think it would be good for geeks worldwide to have our ubergeek to be an actionhero...

Wasn't Neo enough for you?
I would think Gates would make a better Star Wars Kid II.

nonononono.....

[E1v!$]

this is just stupid. why bother with that when you can have THIS.

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

because the 959 is faster?

Re:nonononono.....

[marshall_j]

Yeah but that's a dime a dozem compared to their cars. Porsche equivilent of a civic that can do 9 sec quater mile

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Porsche already made a few cars that surpass the 959, but the fact remains - none of them are 959's. Its the rich boys dream car. Sure other cars are cheaper, faster and street legal but then that exclusivity is gone. Rice boys are the same way with the Skylines.

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

this is just stupid. why bother with that when you can have [a Porsche Carrera GT].

Because a 959 has history associated with it. If you don't understand that, you're either a kid, or someone who doesn't appreciate cars.

Just because something newer and faster comes along, doesn't mean older cars no longer matter. The 959 is one of the most significant Porsche's ever made. Maybe one day the Carrera GT will be too, but I doubt it. 20 years from now I bet a 959 is worth much more than GT.

Re:nonononono.....

[John Courtland]

Go for luxury man:
Cadillac

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider this Caddy to be the most stylish car ever built. The magazine I first saw it in (Street Machine) suggested parking it outside the Empire State building for maximum art deco impact.

Re:nonononono.....

[LeoDV]

...Because the Carrera GT sucks?

A purist would tell you all Porsche sucks since 87 (?) when they stopped making their own engines but it's hardly a mystery that Porsches recently have stopped being cars for sportsmen and people who enjoy a good driving experiences, but cars for MS CEOs and rappers.

A friend of mine owns a Porsche 911 from the last year when Porsche made their own engines, and I got to drive one of the new 911s. Let me tell you, it's a whole 'nother story.

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

A purist would tell you all Porsche sucks since 87 (?) when they stopped making their own engines but it's hardly a mystery that Porsches recently have stopped being cars for sportsmen and people who enjoy a good driving experiences, but cars for MS CEOs and rappers.

Purists? Try snobs. Every generation of Porsche owners has it's share.

There's your example.

Then there is the 964 owners who say the 993 isn't a true 911 because Porsche got help from the Japanese to reign in costs and thus produced a lower quality car (the 993 actually sold for $5000 less that the previous year's 964). They also point to the swept back fenders and headlights as more proof

Then, of course, is the 993 owners who say the 996 isn't a true 911 because it has a water cooled engine. They are many, and probably the most vocal of the snobs.

And no doubt there will be 996 owners who find something wrong with the next generation. I'm pretty sure there are even a few 356 owners who think anything else isn't really a Porsche.

Basically these are the people who are insecure about their decision to buy their car and try to make themselves feel better about it by convincing others they own the 'real deal'. These truly are the oft mentioned people who buy a Porsche to make up for a lack of manhood.

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

As a non-porsche ownwer but an often driver...

The last, real, earth altering porsche experience was the 968. Top down. Foot fully into accelerator, unh. Any car that let's you hit 70 in second gear was made to be driven like the beast that it is.

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Gmpf... having a friend that drives a 911 makes you an expert?

Porsche still makes all their own engines at Weissach (town next to Stuttgart), even for the cars that aren't built in Germany (Boxsters in Finland).

Besides, Mr Purist the 959 _is_ from the time "Porsche made their own engines": '86/'87

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

im no porsche fan but you analysis of other peoples understanding of their marque is slim at best.

Lack of manhood --- cu'mon

Every make has its golden period
and many more than once and many to come


dont knock people because you dont belong
or understand... some cars ARE more enjoyable
to own than others IN MY OPINION
does that make me insecure kid?

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

Every make has its golden period and many more than once and many to come

Yes, but every generation of 911 has a large contingent of owners who think their car is of the golden period and they feel the need to let other 911 owner's know it. I've even know a few who will go as far to argue that if it isn't RWD, it isn't a 911. C4, C4S, Turbo - Sorry, not a 911?!?

These are the insecure people. Not the Porsche owner in general, but the ones who feel the need to belittle others because they don't have the right car. And God forbid if you have a Boxster! Or even worse, one of the front engined, water cooled, monsters from the 80s!! Or horror of all horrors, a Cayenne!!!

dont knock people because you dont belong or understand... some cars ARE more enjoyable to own than others IN MY OPINION does that make me insecure kid?

I appreciate the kid part, but I'm not nearly as young as I look. And no, preferring a certain car doesn't make you insecure - I never claimed it did.

Re:nonononono.....

[Alan Partridge]

The 959's history is nothing special - it was built as a homologation special that incorporated several new technologies (WHICH ARE NOW FITTED TO THE 911 TURBO) and sold at a loss. The rallye raid version of it won the Paris-Dakar - but plenty of humbler cars have done THAT. Probably the most interesting thing about the 959 was the way that it looked!

I think I'd take a current 911 Turbo - at least you can get the servicing done at reasonable rates...

Re:nonononono.....

[Alan Partridge]

Very true.

The saddest part of 911 snobbery is that it killed the BEST Porsche (and best GT) EVER, the 928.

Re:nonononono.....

[drsmithy]

A friend of mine owns a Porsche 911 from the last year when Porsche made their own engines, and I got to drive one of the new 911s. Let me tell you, it's a whole 'nother story.

True, the more modern car probably has better handling, a nicer ride, smoother power output, is much easier to drive, particularly around town and a lot less likely to kill you than the older car.

Of course, it probably has less "character" as well, but who believes in that stuff ?

Re:nonononono.....

[nelsonal]

Why doesn't he just get a 250 GTO, they're rare as all get out (I think there are only about 20 available), sell for a fortune (the last one I read about sold for about 10 million but that was in 1999 and prices have softened a bit), and I believe already legal, due to age differences.

Re:nonononono.....

[MountainBoiler]

Let's hear it for my friends' 944 then... ;-)

Seriously, if you have the money, you should be able to purchase any toy you want, providing playing with said toy doesn't endanger anyone else.

Most Porsche owners I meet are at the track. There are plenty of posers on the street driving numerous brands of cars. Those at the track are learning how to drive better or practicing for races.

Re:nonononono.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Porsche sucks since 87 (?) when they stopped making their own engines

Porsche still designs and hand-manufactures their own engines. In fact, they assist in developing engines for other companies as well.

A friend of mine owns a Porsche 911 from the last year when Porsche made their own engines, and I got to drive one of the new 911s. Let me tell you, it's a whole 'nother story.

You're kind of an idiot, aren't you? I've owned and of course driven both generations of 911. Both have their strong points. But to say the latest 996 is not a "real Porsche" - well, let's just say there are a lot of people who'd disagree with you. And again, Porsche designs and makes all of their own engines.

You sound like just another wanna-be ricer who can't ever hope to own one of these cars, so he can just feel free to put them down.

Re:nonononono.....

[BigDumbAnimal]

My beaten up 4 banger '89 Toyota MR2 can hit 70 in 2nd easily. It is a great car and loads of fun, but I'd hardly call it a beast.

Re:nonononono.....

[Rand Race]

Ah, the Grand Turismo Omologato. 39 made between 1962 and 1964. One of the most beutiful cars ever built, but its 3 litre 300HP V12 ain't gonna move it like a 959 moves. Plus the 40 year old suspension....

Re:nonononono.....

[Matey-O]

Cool. 2nd at redline in my Vette is 94mph.

Re:nonononono.....

[chunkwhite86]

The saddest part of 911 snobbery is that it killed the BEST Porsche (and best GT) EVER, the 928.

Too bad parts for the 928 cost twice what they do on a 911, and it takes 3x the labor hours to replace them. From a parts and maintenance perspective, the 928 is a failure. It costs more to maintain that it does to buy another one.

Re:nonononono.....

[chunkwhite86]

Then there is the 964 owners who say the 993 isn't a true 911 because Porsche got help from the Japanese to reign in costs and thus produced a lower quality car (the 993 actually sold for $5000 less that the previous year's 964). They also point to the swept back fenders and headlights as more proof

The 933 is the last "true" 911 and IMO is the best one. It is the result of three decades of refinement. It's the 996 that is the "japanese porsche". The Japanese were consulted to redesign the engine case in the 996 to make it cheaper to manufacturer (the 993 and 964 engine cases were an expensive piece to make). They've been having problems with this "japanese" engine case. If you want a new Porsche - get a 996 turbo. The new turbo still uses the "old" engine case and is 100% Porsche - no Japanese consulting involved.

I'm pretty sure there are even a few 356 owners who think anything else isn't really a Porsche.

Actually, when the 911 first came out in the early '60's, there were people that thought it was too different and too radical and they didn't like it. The 911 was the first street car (not counting the exotic 550 spyder) that was 100% Porsche designed. The 356 relied heavily on the Volkswagen parts bin and the beetle design. But the 356 is a sweet ride ;-)

Re:nonononono.....

[TaliesinWI]

Um, the 356 was also 100% Porsche designed - it was Ferdinand Porsche's design, just like the VW Beetle was. What YOU mean is the 911 was the first Porsche to be 100% Porsche-built.

Re:nonononono.....

[mesach]

Thats some bastard thing of a boxter(not a Porsche) and some other thing...

Remember just because its got a Porsche Badge on it doesn't mean its a real Porsche.

Personally I think their designers need to go back to the drawing board with something other than the boxter in thier head, this thing and the cayenne look just like modified boxters and I personally think they are Hideous.

If it isn't a 911 or a 356 derivative it's not a Porsche

Re:nonononono.....

[Doctor Memory]

A purist would tell you all Porsche sucks since 87 (?) when they stopped making their own engines

??? Don't know what you've been smoking, but Porsche still makes their own engines. They consulted with some Japanese engineers to bring manufacturing costs down, but they still design and build the engines in-house.

Re:nonononono.....

[i_am_nitrogen]

I rode in a friend's Vette once. 1st at the rev limiter was 45MPH (it was funny to be suddenly going 42MPH in first gear, after what seemed like half a second). Is second gear really half the ratio?

Re:nonononono.....

[afidel]

They also outsource their engine designers to other firms. For instance the Ford Duratec engine line was designed in partnership with Porsche. The snobs took the money and pounded out a first rate engine design then told Ford their was no way they could ever make it. Within 3 months of production beginning at the Cleveland engine plant the average tolerance to spec was at half the deviation that the Porsche engineers specified. A lot of this had to do with the completely new machine tools that Ford installed in Cleveland but a lot of it had to do with the fact that the UAW knew that they would lose all the high paying jobs to Mexico if they weren't able to beat expectations. I expect my Duratec Ford to go at least 200K miles before a tuneup and at the body will most likely wear out in Ohio winters long before the engine is shot.

Re:nonononono.....

[Alan Partridge]

And what does THAT have to do with the price of fish?

Re:nonononono.....

[Matey-O]

It is with the gas thrifty 2.73 stock rearend. The new 383 really wants a 3.07 rearend, but that's not financially tenable at the moment.

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

The 933 is the last "true" 911 See?

Elsewhere...

[mcpkaaos]

John Carmack is seen hastily building a new rocket, loaded with weapons-grade plutonium, mumbling something about being "one-upped" about his Ferrari and some reference to a "last laugh".

Easy, Ashcroft, I was kidding about the plut++++NO CARRIER

Re:Elsewhere...

[MikeHunt69]

You know, I usually let this go, but Im bored...

People who put ++++ in front of the NO CARRIER joke have obviously never used a modem, other than to plug it in and let windows plug & pray auto find it for them.

When you get a *real* NO CARRIER signal, while connected to a BBS for example, you wouldn't see the +++. You would *maybe* get a few garbage characters before the NO CARRIER, but usually the modem simply stops recieving text, then drops.

The +++ is when you are in the terminal program and want to stop the modem sending text to the remote system and send a command to the modem itself. So, if you *do* see a +++ preceding the NO CARRIER, it means YOU have told the modem to hang up, not the remote system.

And, you didn't even get it right.. it would be +++ATH0. The modem would then reply NO CARRIER.

Not trying to single you out, but it's a pet peeve!

Re:Elsewhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandpa, who let you near a computer?

Re:Elsewhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

Carmack has a McLaren F1, not a Ferarri and I'm pretty sure that even this souped up 959 will have problems matching an F1. Plus, the F1 is 10x sexier, what other car has a center driver's seat and two recessed harem passenger seats on either side?

Re:Elsewhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

Aah, but Romero has (had?) the Ferrari.

Re:Elsewhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd take the Porsche anyday over the F1 or the Ferrari.

Keep in mind the F1 and F40/50 were stripped down superlight cars. The 959 can propel you in stock form to 200mph - with the AC on, and your favorite tunes blaring - and you can still inflate/deflate the tires and raise/lower the suspension at speed.

Plus it's all wheel drive :P

Re:Elsewhere...

[mcpkaaos]

Thanks, I had a better laugh reading your post than writing mine. :)

Seems to me...

[fruey]

... like more time, thought and money went into getting a car street legalised than my poor little principles can handle. Add to that getting a law passed specifically for it, and really you're showing just how enough money can get you almost anything in the US.

Cool cars maybe, but this is obscene. Nobody gets anything out of this except a few rich kids fans of 80s porsches, and indeed the cars aren't really anything like what they were before (as classics) because the turbos, ignition system, and fuel injectors are all completely changed in the process.

Another case where the lawyers make more money than the rest of us.

Re:Seems to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Become a lawyer. Or get an MBA. If you want to make money, go to where the money is. It sure isn't around for whiny engineers anymore. Well, it is, but only if you speak Hindi or Urdu.

Re:Seems to me...

[fruey]

I'm happy being poor (indeed, I'm not even poor, except relative to Bill Gates and most lawyers) and I don't think I'm really whining. I'm not jealous of those who make money by deceit, obscene hourly charges, and by putting down the man on the street.

I'm not chasing the money dragon, but I think those that do are obscene. Pretty much all of them.

And don't think those Indian developers to whom you refer are making big bucks. They're living at a lower standard than even me, a "whiny developer".

congrats, you found

[benjamindees]

the bastard child of a porsche and a ferrari, ugh...

It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[commodoresloat]

Once they heard Ford was switching to Linux they figured they had to do something to compete in the auto market.

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[hype7]

Best quote: Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

Ahhh, the sweet irony.

Who better to get a Porsche to crash than Bill Gates?

-- james

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[BLAG-blast]

Who better to get a Porsche to crash than Bill Gates?

It wouldn't be that bad, all you'd have to do is close all the windows and try again...

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[blair1q]

I can hear the first call to the Service Station

Bill Gates: Hey! Bruce! My 959 just died. Get over here!

Bruce Canepa: You'll have to reinstall the windows and see if that fixes it, first.

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

That was the dumbest joke evar.

Gates driving style

[Anonymous Coward]

If Gates drives his Porche like his software drives my computer, get your children inside and stay of the roads...

Re:Gates driving style

[Anonymous Coward]

And if cars were designed like open source software, you'd try to take them to a mechanic and get handed a spanner and told to fix it yourself.

Re:Gates driving style

[jpu8086]

thats the stupidest analogy i've heard of late. in honor of that lame comment:

"if cmdrtaco eats the number of times he reposts the same story, get your children to grow some food for the world's survival."

seriously, grow out of your gates-envy. he is not that bad for being the devil.

Re:Gates driving style

[Anonymous Coward]

There are moments I wish I had mod points, and there are moments I wish I had mod points. This is one of those moments. Bravo, Sir!

Re:Gates driving style

[BJH]

Not really. If cars were like Free Software, you could take your car to your local mechanic and get him to fix it for you, or possibly add some modifications to it.

Well gee, I guess I can do that right now.

Let's look at it the other way - if cars were like proprietary software, you'd have to take your car to the manufacturer to be repaired. Sometimes they'd make modifications without telling you, and sometimes those modifications would break your car, but the manufacturer would just say "Wait until the next time we decide to do modifications".

Re:Gates driving style

[Bobulusman]

And the problem with that is? Sure, it would be a dirty job for something major, but for the simple stuff, I prefer to do it myself anyway. I know people who actually take their cars into the shop to change the oil. Yeesh.

Suddenly...

[fruity1983]

Suddenly all those jokes about gas guzzling speed cars making up for an inadequate penis seem so much more obvious.

Fast Post!

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so I'm not a subscriber and had to wait for it to appear on the non-subscriber edition :-) And I took the time to read the article before posting. It's still 0:23 postings in 16 minutes...

And yes, Gates and friends used money and influence to buy their way around the laws they wanted, but other than the pollution laws, which they got the cars upgraded to meet, the other laws are basically "consumer protection" laws, and if you're a consumer who doesn't *want* to be protected, nobody's forcing you to buy a Porsche 959 and you shouldn't have to pay protection money to do so - it ought to be your choice.

Besides, this is yet another case of the government stepping in and banning hobbyists from doing what they want and only dealing with big industrialists in large volume - as hackers, we're supposed to be opposed to that sort of thing. A couple of years ago, the Stanford Electric Car Show had a really nice little Norwegian prototype car that I'd have been happy to buy right there - but they were only allowed to bring a small number into the country, and were required to *crush* them after six months. What a waste.

Well...

[BrokenHalo]

If there's any justice in this world, with any luck Mr Gates might just write the car and himself off on the first corner...

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

If there's any justice in this world, with any luck Mr Gates might just write the car and himself off on the first corner...

My wife is a God person. She says that the Devil looks after his own.

Too expensive

[Powercntrl]

I'd rather get a Honda Civic and cover it in Type-R stickers... With each one adding 5 extra horsepower, I'd surely end up with a faster car!

Re:Too expensive

[saddino]

Don't forget the extra tach on the dash, a 10 inch exhaust pipe and unpainted bolted-on super wing (you'll need the downdraft with all the extra HP).

Re:Too expensive

[EddyMerckx]

I think the biggest improvement is the 12 inch wheels. Its amazing how much faster the acceleration is. If you stay with a stock speedometer.

Re:Too expensive

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

I always get a good chuckle at those dolts driving around, with the big honking air foil on the back of their car, that looks like it was knocked together in somebody's garage in all of 10 minutes. But I've seen far too many cars with this accessory for them to be custom. Must be a shop somewhere that sells these ugly mothers.

Re:Too expensive

[Noofus]

Especially considering the fact that a spoiler like that over the non-drive wheels is a recipie for terminal understeer.

Spopilers like that on the back are for rear-wheel drive cars to put more force on the drive wheels, not the typical front wheel drive riceburner. I guess if they are drag racing those stupid things they dont care about understeer and just wanna look cool. The big aluminum wing to me just screams 'poser'.

Re:Too expensive

[Paisley Phrog]

Obnoxious, expensive, time consuming modifications to a small car with dubious gains in performance. = Ricing out a car

Obnoxious, inexpensive, quick modifications to a car with dubious gains in performance. = Minute Ricing(R) out a car.

Re:Too expensive

[Chicks_Hate_Me]

Exactly! I'm glad I'm not the only one that realized that a spoiler on a FWD is if not pointless, raises the front of the car even more. Dumbasses, not like they go fast anyways.

"Dope ride mein!"

Re:Too expensive

[afidel]

You don't have to go that fast for a wing to come into play. For instance the speed sensitive wing on the Chrysler Crossfire deploys at around 57mph. DiamlerChrysler spent a lot of time and money in windtunnels and computer sims to find out the best speed to deploy that spoiler. Even most American drivers will regularly go faster than 57mph.

Re:Too expensive

[_newwave_]

where'd you get that idea?

Re:Too expensive

[toddestan]

On the other hand, the engineers at Honda spent a lot of time with the aerodynamics of the Civic, making sure it handled OK at high speeds, that the car was stable and predictable. And at the same time reducing drag to improve on the speed and economy of the vehicle. Then some Riceboy comes along and throws one of those stupid-ass wings on the back and screws it all up. At best, those wings just slow the car down and make it burn more fuel. However, I bet many of those wings screw up the steering and make the car unstable at high speeds, not that many of those posers actually can actually get their modified economy cars up to those speeds.

Do they come in BLUE?

[Vampyre_Dark]

Is it me, or does is there something really wrong when a company that is world famous for CRASHING gets involved in the automotive industry?

Re:Do they come in BLUE?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it me, or does is there something really wrong when a company that is world famous for CRASHING gets involved in the automotive industry?

It's just you, you fucking karma whore. No one else gets the irony. Thank god you were here to help us out!

Re:Do they come in BLUE?

[Vampyre_Dark]

But it seems you are still in need of help! You need a spine, and a set, then maybe you won't be an annonymous coward.

Re:Do they come in BLUE?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'd just need a login and password.

YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT!

It's not the money

[Felinoid]

It's not a matter of throwing money at the problem.
Every time Microsoft redesigns Windows they repeate the same basic mistakes over and over again.
The reason is becouse Bill Gates has his own ideas on how an operating system should work and refuses to accept the fact that those ideas are the cause of Windows problems.

It would be more akin to trying to make the space shuttle streat legal while refusing to make it smaller.

The feat they did preform is more akin to making Minux stable and reliable. No simple feat but that is exactly what Linus was attempting to do when he first started working on his Linux kernel.

Re:It's not the money

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking sad idiot regurgitating the same ignorant slashbot groupthink. Bill Gates' ideas are at the core of Windows? No, actually the ideas of the designers of VMS are at the core of Windows post-NT. Gates is far too busy having fun with his Porsche and the Justice Department and steering the company to ever-increasing profit.

While Linus... well, he gets a reasonable salary, and the adulation of sweaty fursuit-wearing lardturds everywhere. It's surprising just how disfunctional your OS can be when you don't actually have a job to do with it!

Re:It's not the money

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh piffle! You sound like a person who is in need of a good yiff.

Re:It's not the money

[Anonymous Coward]

"Every time Microsoft redesigns Windows they repeate the same basic mistakes over and over again."

Windows NT/2000/XP are all the same. There has not been a redesign in many years.

I am shocked and appalled

[flopsy mopsalon]

In a country where thousands die annually in automobile accidents. here three billionaires are deliberately crashing cars just so they can have overpriced playthings to go joyriding in.

This whole fiasco is a metaphor for everything that's wrong with Microsoft, and by extension, America.

Re:I am shocked and appalled

[SpaceCadetTrav]

So, what countries exist where thousands don't die annually in automobile accidents?

Re:I am shocked and appalled

[Alan Partridge]

Really small ones like Liechtenstein?

Re:I am shocked and appalled

[Rob Simpson]

Not sure, but I'd like to move to one where pedestrians on sidewalks aren't considered fair game. (Speaking from personal experience with ICBC.)

Only not street legal in the United States!

[avidday]

The 959 was always street legal, expcept in the US, because of Porsche's refusal to supply the required vehicles (up to four if memory serves correctly) for the mandatory crash test. People have been happily and safely driving their road specification 959's (Porsche had to build 200 road going examples for FIA Group B homologation purposes) in many other places since deliveries began in late 1987.

crash test dummy

[flacco]

Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test.

i nominate billy to sit behind the wheel when this goes down.

This is how America works

[Qrlx]

This story should be made into a movie. Perhaps a documentary.

"...We formulated a law--that if 500 or fewer cars were produced, if they weren't currently produced, if they were never U.S.-legal, and if they were rare--you could import them without having to pass DOT standards. As long as they met EPA standards and were driven no more than 2500 miles per year, they'd be legal."

...The supercar proviso became law when President Clinton signed off on it. After eight years of struggle, the real hassles were about to begin for the 959 project. "The next step was to reduce the bill to writing so DOT could administer it. At first they weren't happy about it. Their attitude was 'We're short-staffed as it is, so how are we going to deal with this?' But the government worked diligently to help our cars pass inspection."

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive. Then, there's the fact that someone(s) in Congress (aka "your representative") felt s/he was acting appropriately when the attached this rider to the transportation bill. Finally, we've got the lawyers, who dreamed up this scheme where we have to pay (see "your money" above) so the super-wealthy chase their small-penised dreams.

This whole damn situation is so friggin' complex that I am really having a hard time determining who I should be pissed off at.

Personally, if I were that rich, I would just find a way to bring the car in illegally. How hard can that really be? On the other hand, I know Bill Gates gets his most intense satisfaction every time his lawyer-monkeys find a way to make legal something that really isn't.

Re:This is how America works

[DaveSchool]

And if it wasn't for all this crap bureaucracy the cars would've been allowed into the country when they were built.

The only reason the crash-test laws exist is to "protect" the public from cars like the Pinto which are quite unsafe. But these guys aren't poor, single mothers who were tricked by the big, evil corporation into buying an unsafe car. These guy know what they're buying, all the risks, etc... It would have been a lot less trouble if they could have just signed some waiver that acknowledged they knew the cars were potentially unsafe and they hadn't been crash-tested. Problem solved.

But there has to be all this restrictive crap in the way, that prevents ANY new car from being driven in the US unless it undergoes crash-testing.

Re:This is how America works

[JimBobJoe]

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive.

While this law was drawn for them...it's entirely possible that a far smaller car collector would benefit. They may want a rare european car whose value is no where near the value of a 959, and import it into the US...they would be able to under this law. It's not just for the super rich.

What you should be pissed off (and that you left out of your rant) is the fact that the article noted that the DOT had a major bug up its ass about the 959, and wanted to set some type of example with it. When an institution makes those types of decisions, they have to deal with the consequences, in this case, a bunch of people trying to override them (and the simple pleasure of busting a federal bureaucracy's balls is worth the law to me.) On the other hand, DOT nursed its wounds and then wrote out a huge amount of time and money wasting bureaucratic regulations to enforce a law that's fairly straightforward, simply because it's ego was hurt.

Echoing what another reply said to your post, why they don't allow you to sign a waiver form in the first place is beyond comprehension.

Re:This is how America works

[henrygb]

...The supercar proviso became law when President Clinton signed off on it. After eight years of struggle, the real hassles were about to begin for the 959 project. "The next step was to reduce the bill to writing so DOT could administer it."

What does this phrase mean in standard English? I thought laws were usually written down before they were passed. If laws need detailed regulations before they can be implemented, this usually ends up as an expansion, not a reduction.

Re:This is how America works

[Zachary Kessin]

Simple in many of the more tecnical parts of the US Gov (FDA,FCC,FAA etc) Congress passes rules with broad outlines. They department then makes admistrative rules based on those laws to allow things to actually get done.

For example in aviation (because I know something about that) The FAA is given by congress the right to make rules for civil aviation. So for example the number of hours it takes to get a pilot's licence is in the FAR's written by the FAA and not in a bill passed by congress.

I would imagine that the relivant parts of the DOT here had to make some rules on exactly how you admister this law and that took some time.

Re:This is how America works

[swordboy]

Personally, if I were that rich, I would just find a way to bring the car in illegally.

It certainly is possible to do it legally. I live in the Detroit area and I see a lot of "wierd" stuff. Back when the 959 was released, I saw one on the street by my high school. I ended up following the guy home in order to find out if the car was real only to watch the maneuvering required to get the car into his driveway (it is so low to the ground that he had to back it in at a large angle).

In any event, the car was indeed real and street legal. The guy who owned the car simply licensed the car through Audi/VW North America as a test vehicle. This simply means that the license plate has a big "M" in the middle of it. Even though the exhaust was much too loud (with flames that discharge between shifts), the "M" plated cars can pretty much be anything that the manufacturer wants them to be...

Because, as you have pointed out, money gets pretty much anything here in the states.

Re:This is how America works

[danila]

Does the current situation mean that the American government guarantees you that your car will be safe? Will it pay you if you have an accident? Will it reimburse the repairs and your hospital bill? What's the real point of this certification then?

Re:This is how America works

[A55M0NKEY]

Well if you're importing rare cars from Europe, then you're super rich from my point of view. I'm super rich to some guy in the third world making 3 cents a year working 25 hour days 9 days a week naked and scrawny from malnutrition carrying 300lb sacks of mud to make a billion cubit tall statue of Bender the Robot.
Obviously the people who drive the cars on the road should bear the full cost of 'federalizing' them. However, it shouldn't cost that much to federalize a car. I am in favor of legislating a few things, like e-brakes, turn signals, headlights, horn, but as far as passenger safety it shoud be entirely up to the driver. If I bolt together some monstrosity, and put turn signals on it, I should be able to drive my couch down the road. I shouldn't have to make 20 couches and crash them into a wall. Of course driving a couch is unsafe. But I should have the right to do it anyway.

Re:This is how America works

[__aafutm5472]

While this law was drawn for them...it's entirely possible that a far smaller car collector would benefit.

Indeed it has. Prior to the Subaru WRX coming to America, and prior to the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo coming here, one of the most popular cars in US SCCA ProRally was....

The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Eh? But it wasn't street legal, and as per the SCCA ProRally rules, all entrants have to have street legal cars. So how'd that work?

My point? The people bringing them in did one of a few things: They brought them in under this law, and hoped that they didn't run more than 2500 miles worth of rallies; they built them from parts starting with a base model Mitsubishi Mirage; or they did a little VIN swapping, all the while greasing the palms of those individuals at the docks.

Were these people super rich? No -- just had enough disposable income to have some fun. Did they benefit from this law? You betcha. Can you do the same? Sure -- for enough cash.

Re:This is how America works

[Rich0]

Depends - if your couch is prone to veering into the path of my Camry I have to raise issues with that...

Also - if federal safety regulations didn't exist you'd suddenly find that all cars were deathtraps on wheels - unless you want to spend 40k on a Volvo - which would then rise in price since it was the only safe thing to drive and therefore a niche item.

Why do you think those regulations got passed in the first place? On the other hand, the regulations should contain exceptions to personal safety if the car costs over $70k - the rich are welcome to kill themselves and benefit the rest of society via estate taxes. Plus, there is no incentive for manufacturers to nickel-and-dime on safety for a car that expensive - the buyers in that market dictate what they will tolerate.

All cars, however, should pass environmental restrictions and safety-restricitons aimed at the safety of those NOT in the car. These regulations are for the benefit of society and not the owner. A car that kills its occupants in a crash is fine - a car that has a tendency to lose steering control is not.

Re:This is how America works

[DaveSchool]

The point of this certification is, as I said, so you don't unknowingly buy an unsafe car, like a Pinto, that could explode. The certification is given as a number of stars. If the vehicle sucks, and there's a good chance you'll die in a crash, it's given 1 star, if it's really good, and you'll probably live if you're in a crash it's given 5. That way you know how good the car is.

Do the world a favor and watch a few minivan commercials, so you can figure out how the whole thing works without having to ask stupid questions.

Re:This is how America works

[poot_rootbeer]

it's entirely possible that a far smaller car collector would benefit. [...] It's not just for the super rich.

Okay, so it's for the super-rich AND the just-plain-rich.

Do you know of many "car collectors" in the middle or lower tax brackets?

Re:This is how America works

[Anonymous Coward]

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive. Then, there's the fact that someone(s) in Congress (aka "your representative") felt s/he was acting appropriately when the attached this rider to the transportation bill. Finally, we've got the lawyers, who dreamed up this scheme where we have to pay (see "your money" above) so the super-wealthy chase their small-penised dreams.

None of which would have been necessary if the DOT hadn't to gone completely rule-crazy batshit over a few dozen cars in the first place. An activity which was also funded by your money, by the way.

Requiring imported cars to meet emissions standards is one thing. All the other stuff - like bitching about the ride height, crash testing, requiring limited miles, etc, was officious power-mad bullshit that wasted tax dollars and protected no one.

And I say this as someone who hates cars and hates Bill Gates, even. It was that obvious and wanton an abuse of power. Probably the work of some frustrated little burecrat somewhere, flexing his tiny muscles in a pathetic little victory dance.

Re:This is how America works

[sparty]

Do you know of many "car collectors" in the middle or lower tax brackets?

Actually, yes. Although most of them probably can't afford to import a rare car from Europe, there are a lot of people not in higher tax brackets that are big car enthusiasts. They do tend to drive their cars more than "car collectors", but that's a generalization (and if someone owns more than 3 cars, he/she is probably a de facto collector even if those cars get driven on the streets). One of the more common reasons is that car enthusiasts often do a lot of work themselves; if you buy a 911 turbo that got thrashed by the previous owner and restore it yourself, you will probably end up with a car worth well more than you put into it (not counting time). If you enjoy restoring cars, then the time is effectively free (i.e. it's leisure time therefore you would conceivably otherwise use it for watching ballgames, movies, drinking at the bar, golfing, plinking stuff at teh gravel pit--all activities that cost money). Do that successfully a few times and you might just be able to scrape together enough cash to import a trashed car from Europe without being in a particularly high income bracket.

Re:This is how America works

[pmz]

I would just find a way to bring the car in illegally.

Even better would be to import the car legally. Then, build your own racetrack with attached runway for your private jet. Or, just buy a share of an existing race track and use it when others aren't.

Re:This is how America works

[danila]

Could you please record some and mail them to me. It just happens that I don't have access to American TV right now, which is a shame.

But anyway, I don't see why people should be prevented from buying uncertified products from abroud themselves. Nobody expects the American government to protect people from a product effectively bought in Germany.

Re:This is how America works

[afidel]

Yep, go to a car show some time, 90+% of them are working stiffs who rebuilt the cars themselves. There is a class of lawyer/CEO who buys their way into the hobby and therefore subsidizes someone elses time but for the most part car enthusiasts are not rich folk.

Re:This is how America works

[pimpinmonk]

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive.

Read again. They threw a little clause onto another bill, very quietly so no one would notice. The bill passed to accomplish other things, and in the process granted this little clause (Bill Clinton probably didn't even read that part) that enabled the 959s to be legalized. It wasn't an entire bill devoted to this car, because the senators wouldn't waste their time on that (they're busy wasting it on other stuff... heh heh there's a can of worms).

Re:This is how America works

[shirai]

I hate this line of logic on how poor people's money is used to pay for the eccentricities of the rich.

Let me tell you how this works: "RICH PEOPLE SUBSIDIZE POOR PEOPLE MORE THAN POOR PEOPLE SUBSIDIZE RICH PEOPLE."

That you have something against Bill Gates is one thing but to suggest that you are somehow subsidizing this is ridiculous. With a net worth of $34 billion, I think Bill has paid more in taxes than the net value of your neighborhood.

Re:This is how America works

[A55M0NKEY]

True, if the couch doesn't meet some requirements like controlability, and signals etc, the driver/creator of the thing, or his insurance company ( if he could even find one to insure his couch ) should be liable. But these tests don't require the destruction of the vehicle. Crash tests do.

Ask 10 poor people and I'll bet 9 would rather drive a deathtrap than nothing at all - I know I would. But if consumers don't demand safety in general as a feature of their vehicles, then that just means consumers ( the public ) doesn't care about safety. Yes safety costs money. Maybe they'll choose not to have that great sound system to know the company designed and tested the vehicle for occupant safety so they'll be able to walk away from a crash. Maybe not. Whatever the choice it should be the consumer's to make.

If a car is unsafe, the automaker opens themselves to lawsuits. It would behove the car makers to make sure their vehicles are safe.

Re:This is how America works

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, the simplest way to do it 'illegally' would be to relabel the car! Just say it's a porche xxx that is street legal, and make sure your ownership and license papers all say that. It's exceedingly unlikely the deception would ever even be noticed.

Ah man....

[2Bits]

...increased the performance of the already super car to: 575HP making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds with a top speed of 215MPH

Jesus died for us, and all I got is this lousy car? Worse yet, I'm not even allowed to go pass 65MPH?

Poor Jesus, died for nothing!

Re:Ah man....

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus died for us, and all I got is this lousy car? Worse yet, I'm not even allowed to go pass 65MPH?

For about $200 you can take your car to an area track and drive as fast you dare. Completely legal, and as long as you know your limits, relativly safe.

Re:Ah man....

[Zan Zu from Eridu]

Jesus died for us, and all I got is this lousy car?

No, Jesus died for the Germans, so they can deliver their redeeming cars to the world unhindered. Really, miracles are happening as we speak! People are buying these cars to crash them as an offering, and suddenly US laws change in inexplicable ways. If you can't see the Hand of God in that, you're beyond hope.

(I'll probably get nailed by some fundamentalist mod for this, but what the heck.)

rich people

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates buy new laws, Carmack builds rockets, Allen builds radio telescopes... I wanna be rich too. They seem to have a lot of fun.

Re:rich people

[Anonymous Coward]

1. ?????
2. Get Rich
3. Have fun

Re:rich people

[Anonymous Coward]

An don't seem to have any guilt over the people they ripped off along the way.

darwin award candidates

[gad_zuki!]

Lets see a couple chubby out of touch computer monopolists trying to handle a 500+ HP car? Something tells me Apple and Linux are going to have a bright future after a certain firey crash.

Re:darwin award candidates

[DaveSchool]

Yeah, I'm sure these BILLIONAIRES can't afford high-performance driving lessons or anything like that. Also, Bill Gates' history would lead me to believe that he's been driving these kind of cars for quite some time (his famous mugshot is from when he was pulled over for going 100+ in a Porsche).

Too bad for them...

[grungeman]

...that the new Porsche Carrera GT will be out, with 612 HP. That will make them look like a bunch of losers.

But seriously, can anyone tell me what you want with such a car on North American roads? Even on the German autobahn you really seldom have traffic conditions that allow going more than 125mph.

Re:Too bad for them...

[toopc]

Too bad for them?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if Bill Gates or any of those other billionaires want a Carerra GT, they can buy one, or ten. And they won't have to sell the 959 either.

These guys aren't like you or me, they don't have to sell the Corolla to step up the Camry.

Re:Too bad for them...

[mcpkaaos]

...what you want with such a car on North American roads?

Well, we could have a Cannonball Run 3. We even have a modern day Dom DeLuise. Sorry Balmer, you brought it on yourself. I guess Gates could be Burt Reynolds, but I doubt he can grow a mustache.

Re:Too bad for them...

[grungeman]

But no matter how much money you have, you can only drive one car at a time. So if I once happen to have the money I will buy a GT and wait in front of Bill Gate's house until he enters his 959. Then I will drive by, with my "959 sucks" bumper sticker prominently showing. I guess that's as close to world domination as you can get :-)

Re:Too bad for them...

[BJH]

Let's see exactly how much a Porsche Carerra GT would cost Bill Gates (relatively speaking).

His net worth is currently $US34,234,884,352.40 (according to the Bill gates Net Worth Page).
A brand-new Porsche Carerra GT costs an estimated $US400,000.
That means that the cost to Bill Gates is approximately 0.0012% of his total worth.
According to the US Census Bureau, the median net worth of a US household in 1995 was $US40,200. Let's adjust that upward by, say, 10% to take into account the past eight years - the amount is now $US44220.
0.0012% of 44220 is 53 cents.

Conclusion: A Porsche Carerra GT for Bill Gates is equivalent to a couple of cans of Coke for the average American.

Re:Too bad for them...

[enigmatichmachine]

true the carrera does have high hp and torque, but the engine is a 5.7 litre v10, vs. the 959's 2.4 litre, think of how much lighter and more moneuverable the 959 must be... i mean, by comparison the carrera is a hulking beast!

Re:Too bad for them...

[dcw3]

But seriously, can anyone tell me what you want with such a car on North American roads? Even on the German autobahn you really seldom have traffic conditions that allow going more than 125mph.

Unless things have changed dramatically since I lived there for six years, driving 125 on the Autobahn was rarely a problem. I owned a new '85 Vette back then...topped out around 155mph, but only got to drive it there for six months. In those days, there wasn't much around that could hit those speeds. Now I'm stuck commuting in northern Virginia, but still managed to get my Infiniti FX45 up to 100 on the way into work today.

Re:Too bad for them...

[cybergibbons]

Yeah, it's got more power, but it's not the same car, it isn't exclusive, and above all, isn't as fast at the low end... let's look at the differences

• 959 has AWD, which makes pulling away much easier and faster, though increases weight.
• 959 has a 2.4l engine, compared to the 5.7l of the Carrera GT - and a tuned 959 can get almost 600BHP.
• 959 sounds like a proper old Porsche...
• There are only about 3 of these you'll ever see on the road in the US.

Re:Too bad for them...

[Anonymous Coward]

don`t forget the face lift and tou-pee or haven`t you seen ol` burt for awhile?

Re:Too bad for them...

[timeOday]

Collecting is about exclusivity! If any moron with $500,000 can get one, well what is the point? But if it requires a personal army of lawyers, personal influence in DC, and a 10 year waiting period, well let's see the Joneses keep up with that!

Re:Too bad for them...

[Alan Partridge]

I think you'll find that the 959 had a 2.85Litre flat 6.

Anyway, the Carrera GT is MID-ENGINED - that alone makes up for any weight advantage that the 959 MIGHT have.

Re:Too bad for them...

[mfrank]

They'd have to start around Dec 30 and go through Jan 2 or so, that way they'd be under 2500 miles per year :)

I don't have many fantasies. . .

[noewun]

but one which remains: being driven around Le Mans (without the chicanes on the Mulsanne) in the passenger seat of a 962C at race speed for a coupla laps. Nothing like going 240 mph on the ground.

Failing that, gimme the 962C for a weekend. There's this road in Montana that goes straight mile after mile. . .

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[Jonas the Bold]

What a crappy fantasy. Wouldn't you rather own one, and live somewhere in the midwest with straight highways hundreds of miles long?

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[noewun]

No. I live in Manhattan, where I want to live, and I don't want the maintenance that comes with a modern race car. I've also raced enough to know that I am not the next Senna, or even the next Chris Amon. But I would like to sit next to a stone professional (Jacky Ickx, say) and have them drive me around Le Mans for half an hour.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[singleantler]

Not owned any myself (yet) but the people I've talked to with European sports cars (Lotus and Porsches, mainly) maintain the fun is in the corners rather than the straights. Straights and going very fast are fun for a while, but throwing a sports car at a corner and taking it just right is where the long-term joy is.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

well put. nice choice in car.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[turbo_magic_hat]

Seen in car footage of a 956 taking the Mulsanne kink at 220 and then standing on the anchors for Mulsanne? Agreed, corners are good and I own a low-powered Mazda MX5 which is tremedous fun in the bendy bits, but the Mulsanne at Le Mans in the pre-chicane days was awesome. For years a privateer team just turned up to see just how fast they could take it. I think they topped out at over 250mph but the engine diodn't last long.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[toopc]

Straights and going very fast are fun for a while, but throwing a sports car at a corner and taking it just right is where the long-term joy is.

Easy to prove.

Next time you're on the highway, find a nice empty straight stretch and speed up to 100 for a short period. Get a little nervous? A touch of adrenaline maybe? Probably more so because you're worried about a ticket than the fact you're going 100mph. Come down to S. Florida and that's only 10-15mph faster then everybody else is driving.

Now find an exit with a nice tight curve rated at 35mph. Try taking that at 50mph (or whatever speed is sane for your car). Whole other story. It's the fear of losing control that's scary, not the speed.

Although I bet one of those Top Fuel dragsters doing the 1/4 mile in 4.5 seconds would make me reconsider how scary a straight line can be.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[Malc]

What is it with Americans and wanting to drive on straight roads? That's so dull. Driving fast on windy hilly roads is much more interesting and thrilling, and much more of a driving challenge.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[TClevenger]

Agreed. My commute home is a 3,600 foot climb on a very windy and hilly 12 mile stretch of mountain road. I regularly spank Civics, GTi's and Camaros in my Metro. Why? Because they blast past me on the straight, then have to jam on the brakes because they're afraid to take the next corner. Meanwhile, I'm gently sliding all four tires around the corner and accelerating to the next one.

I had a hotshot in a Dakota break a little loose, panic, stomp on the brakes and do a 360 behind me once. This was after he diligently blocked me for the two miles before the curves started and I passed him on the first corner.

Methinks I'm ready for that WRX now.

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[noewun]

It was Peugeot's cars hitting 250 mph on the Mulsanne, along with various flying Mercedes, which brought on the bone-headed decision to put kinks in that lovely straight.

At 200 mph, a good race car becomes a terrible airplace. - John Watson

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[i_am_nitrogen]

Uh... you drive a METRO that way? I have a Metro. I would never drive anything less than completely safe if near a cliff or a steep hill. Around here where it's mostly flat though, for a tin can coffin that gets 45MPG it's not too bad of a drive. Obviously I like my Honda Civic better, but that's an automatic and has poorer fuel efficiency. I can drive about 20 miles to get to some nice mountain roads though, if I want the winding curves and death cliffs...

Re:I don't have many fantasies. . .

[TClevenger]

One of the columnists at Car and Driver was talkinga about the charm of small econoboxes. Basically, the limits are so much lower on an econobox, you can generally push one to its limits without killing yourself. For instance, I can drift the Metro around some of the tighter curves at 40 mph. A Porsche might have to do the same corner at 90 to push the same limits.

Mine's a 4-door, and I generally get 38-40 mpg with my uphill antics. Granted, the three transmissions and 8 CV joints have more than made up for the savings on gas. At this point, I'm ready for a better car, but I figured I'll just drive this until it dies, and then leave it on the side of the road with the pink and keys on the seat. :-)

A real porsche sportscar

[Knos]

I wonder if that one is street legal in the us:

http://www.962lm.com/index-h.htm

(It is a clone of the porsche 962 that raced at le mans 24 hours race)

Now that's a real sportscar :)

Not that fast

[ChrisJC]

This Porsche 959 - 0-100 is 11.4sec >$400K
TVR Cerbera 4.5 (current production made in Blackpool, England) - 0-100 is 8.3sec from a 4.5litre V8, cost $80K
I think I'd go for the TVR. Not being able to do 215mph (only 195mph from the TVR) is not a big deal.
Of course, you could get the TVR T440R if you really must do 215mph.
Check out tvr-eng.co.uk

Re:Not that fast

[ratbag]

Although if the road was wet you might regret not plumping for the Porsche. I've heard of TVR's rotating 180degrees if the driver twitches their right foot on a greasy road.

Plus the build quality of a 959 was somewhat better than the TVR.

Plus a 959 is, like, a 959 man - how can you possibly compare it to a TVR?

Rob.

Re:Not that fast

[ChrisJC]

Well, a Porche, like all German cars is well built, and has all the character of a house brick. The driving experience will be akin to watching paint dry.

A TVR has character, a fabulous exhaust note, and a proper driving experience, i.e you feel involved. A TVR is a drivers car, and the comment about spinning it with injudicious use of the throttle is probably true, and so what, drive it with respect!

Re:Not that fast

[ratbag]

Easy tiger. No argument re: character. TVR has it in bucketloads.

My experience with Porsche driving is limited (TVR even more so) but even in a lowly Boxster there was fun to be had.

I've gone through the usual GTi suspects (two x 205, two x 309, one 106) via a Subaru Impreza Turbo (99MY Wagon) to a BMW Compact Sport 325ti. The Impreza was quick and held the road, but didn't offer much excitement beyond that. The old 1.6 205GTi offered more laughs. Strangely, though, the Compact is giving me about as many grins as the old Pug. It's 190hp (against 215 in the Scoob) but it's RWD. And with the DSC etc switched off it does actually want to play. And the exhaust note when the VANOS flips over is rather splendid (certainly better than the Scooby).

So what I'm saying is, I agree, to some extent. But, given the choice between a TVR and a 959, _I_ wouldn't give it a moment's consideration.

The spin (a friend of friend, so treat with caution) was along the lines of "driving along motorway at around 60mph, accelerated to join faster traffic, oh my god, why are my back wheels overtaking me?" as opposed to "floored it whilst fully crossed up". Apochryphal stories aren't worth a great deal, I know.

Anyway, keep on motoring (whilst we're still allowed).

Rob.

Re:Not that fast

[Anonymous Coward]

I too have gone through most of what you have listed on drives and a bunch of others.

Go find an audi dealership that will let you drive an S4.

Definitely the most bang for the buck, evar!

So much ammo...

[Xenoproctologist]

"The 959 just squats and goes."
And finally, after all these years, it can do it on these shores.

Best lines of the article. So very much potential...

"...finally drops anchor on American soil."
"...just shits all over the competition!"

Re:So much ammo...

[Anonymous Coward]

LMAO

215MPH?

[turgid]

If you want to go places at 215MPH why don't you get yourself a damn aeroplane? Cars are dangerous enough at 70MPH. Most countries have speed limits on the public roads.

Re:215MPH?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to go places at 215MPH why don't you get yourself a damn aeroplane? Cars are dangerous enough at 70MPH. Most countries have speed limits on the public roads.

Enjoy...

60 in 3.3 seconds?

[Anonymous Coward]

My motorcycle beats this, it's not sponsored nor endorsed by anybody from Microsoft and I paid it with my Unix programmer and administrator salary.
Take this, Bill.

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[toopc]

Wow, your motorcycle is faster than a 959.

If only Bill had your money he could afford one too. Oh wait, he does have your money, and x billion times more. I guess the point of it wasn't just 0-60 numbers then.

You think?

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[klui]

Your motorcycle is probably quicker than a 959, but it is not faster nor could it outcorner one. But I guess one out of 3 ain't bad.

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[Moderation abuser]

Interesting you say that, cos round a track, bikes win against everything but high downforce vehicles. And in a straight line, bikes win against well, pretty much everything.

So, in essence, you'll be able to beat a bog standard $10,000 road going sportsbike if you've got a few hundred thousand to spend on sealed off aerodynamics, 2 inches of ground clearance, large spoilers, slick tyres and 30 miles of completely straight road to get that extra 15mph of top speed over the ~200mph that a Hayabusa or ZX12R will do.

But hey, those are every day circumstances, aren't they?

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[porlw]

Too true.

How often do I use the silly top speed of my bike? Never.

How often do I use it's incredible cornering ability? Never - if there's a bend in the road it's usually going 'round something I can't see through, don't want to hit a truck or something.

How often do I get to use it's crazy acceleration? Every time I pull up alongside a Porsche, Ferrari, or BMW M-car at the lights. Which isn't very often, because they're usually stuck back in the queue behind a Toyota. Splitting lanes means I get to be at the front of pretty much every red light, so there's always an open road in front.

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[jweatherley]

So, in essence, you'll be able to beat a bog standard $10,000 road going sportsbike if you've got a few hundred thousand to spend

Alternatively pray for rain and turn up in a 4WD sports car. BillG can use his 959 but a Subaru Impreza WRX ought to see off a bike in a monsoon.

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[georgep77]

Your bike no doubt faster in the 1/4 mile as well. Costs only 2.5% of the 959 too. Motorcycles are the performance bargain of vehicles. There really is no comparison.

Cheers,
_GP_
2000 Suzuki GSXR750 (yellow the faster color)

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK my hayabusa annihilates everything, Porche, Ferrari, M-cars, Imprezas, you name it, and when it comes to corners I dont think i need to say but it wipes the floor with everything on the road.....

Except in the wet of course where it is still quicker and faster but not as much.....

And all this performance from a 2nd line tech support worker....

So ill say it again, IN YOUR FACE BILLYBOY

0.02p

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[dapprman]

Think that says alot about the drivers as well.

I've seen a decently driven MX-5 (ok it was a 200+ BHP supercharged one) leave a number of performance bikes for dead on the twisties. Now with more power and even better handling ... (Caterham owners please step forwards).

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, you must be the guy I like to open my door for when traffic is stopped on the 210 and you do that "lane sharing" thing at 30 mph.

Re:60 in 3.3 seconds?

[jinushaun]

How can you compare a bike's 0-60 time?! Two different worlds and bikes will always usually be faster than cars.

EPA are just polluting busybodies

[Ignis Flatus]

After the first eight examples arrived at Holbert's race shop in August 1988, the feds came to inspect them. They found what appeared to be street-legal examples with leather interiors and leather-covered roll bars. The only apparent concessions to race trim were roll-up windows and deletion of air conditioning and radio. Suspecting duplicity on Porsche's part, the inspectors refused to authorize importation.

It really does sound a lot like the same trim that a Ford Mustang Cobra "R" model comes in. And all these elite toys are going to do less ecological damage in one year than a single NASCAR event. Now, add up how much money was spent to jump through the beaurocratic hoops, convert that to gallons of gasoline, and you'll see that less energy would have been wasted if only the regulators had made an exemption up front.

More like 2.15 Mph

[mod_parent_down]

Sorry, but unless this thing is specially fitted to cruise on medians and guard-rails, you're still gonna be counting the inches on the 520 bridge.

Hope you like 1st gear.

Re:More like 2.15 Mph

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, there's nothing quite as exciting as blowing past the cops hiding out underneath the Island Crest Way off ramp on I-90 at 120mph at 3:00 in the morning. Not a soul around but you and two cops who just got a lapful of java.

Acceleration vs. Velocity

[nucal]

The 959 goes from a standstill to 60 mph in 3.3 seconds and reaches 100 mph in 11.4 seconds.

My Subaru reaches 100 mph in about 20 seconds ... that works for me.

Re:Acceleration vs. Velocity

[Anonymous Coward]

My Subaru reaches 100 mph in about 20 seconds ... that works for me.

I cannot reach that speed with my bike, still that works for me.

Re:Acceleration vs. Velocity

[Keeper]

My car goes from 0-120 back to 0 in just over 30 seconds. It isn't fast enough for me. :p

Re:Acceleration vs. Velocity

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need to do 120MPH in less htan 30 seconds?

They should do this for the Skyline as well...

[andrewski]

Poor Skyline needs legalization too!

Not all of us even want a 959, a Skyline can be blown out much farther.

Linux Mechanic?

[teamhasnoi]

Sure, Bill, the brakes look great! Drive faster!

Crash Test Dummies . . .

[Dausha]

So, will Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Bruce Canepa or Ralph Lauren also volunteer to be crash test dummies? I don't think we should accept all four of them a couple will suffice. After all, you can't have a accurate crash test without end-user testing.

This should be a slashdot poll questions: Who should be the first CTD?

Re:Crash Test Dummies . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

This should be a slashdot poll questions: Who should be the first CTD?

And don't be sissies, have a Cowboy Neal option.

all is forgiven

[trouser]

ssa

So?

[Knunov]

If Microsoft wasn't attached to this story, you would either be happy or indifferent. If you knew the dumbass reasons the 959 was kept off American roads in the first place you'd be more sympathetic.

I bought a poster of the 959 when it first came out - it hung over my first computer.

Now I own a Viper, but I would *love* to own a 959. AMAZING vehicle.

Car lovers everywhere will be happy about this. I hope I pull up next to one in my Viper - so I can race it :D

Knunov

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

We would probably be indifferent if it were someone else. Or maybe not.

I think it is interesting that it is Bill Gates, if only because he manages to change the law especially for this. As someone else has already pointed out, it only makes you wonder what he would do if billions were involved. Well, it doesn't really make you wonder. It just confirms.

EC

Re:So?

[dbirchall]

If "we" had enough money to all have Vipers like you do, you lucky S.O.B., "we" would probably either be happy or indifferent. :)

Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[Excen]

Currently, it costs $90,000 to import a USED Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 to the U.S. and to make it street legal. For those of you who don't know, it's the silver and blue car that Paul Walker drives in 2 Fast 2 Furious. (Yeah, it's the one with the steering wheel on the wrong side. . . ) Mind you, it costs a third of that in Japan BRAND SPANKING NEW! You can buy a 2-year-old Toyota Corolla equivalent for 6 thousand in Japan, however, due to the asinine import laws governing foreign trade, it costs two times the cost of the car to get the tests done to prove that the car was street legal and emmisions compliant in the first place, and to pay the import duties. To get the car released from customs to do the emissions testing, a bond of 250 PERCENT OF THE PRICE OF THE CAR must be put up to ensure that you will get the emissions done. You get that money back, but who has the cash to pony up like that when you are buying a car?

Anyways, that's my rant on Stupid American Laws.

"No beer until you finish your tequila!"
-Leela's Dad

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[jpmorgan]

To get the car released from customs to do the emissions testing, a bond of 250 PERCENT OF THE PRICE OF THE CAR must be put up to ensure that you will get the emissions done. You get that money back, but who has the cash to pony up like that when you are buying a car?

The manafacturer.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[mixy1plik]

You can also purchase the R33 and R32 models, as well. The company that did it is Motorex in California. The reason they are so expensive is because they took a crash-test approach which, according to the article, was not practical for the 959. Also, a *new* R34 will set you back 93-95k, whereas a used one is 78-88k. I got my information from the source- skylinegtr.com

I would put an R34 Vspec up against any automobile for $90,000 on the race track. It's a stunning car and once again, us American car enthusiasts who could care less about big blocks and domestic trash are left out in the cold.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[Anonymous Coward]

.....you got lucky.

I was going to mod you down, you whiny rice burning rice burner you. But you pulled it out with the quote. Your +5 shall remain unmolested.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[adamjaskie]

And a Corvette Z06 could probably beat it - straight line or twisties - for less than $60,000.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody out of the woodwork and say why your car is better!!! :(

I like corvettes, but the damn plastic dash has me looking for other options... looks the same as my z28... cheap.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[poot_rootbeer]

My question is... if money is at all an issue, why would you WANT to import a Nissan or Toyota from Japan into the US, when those companies already sell similar if not identical cars domestically? It's not like you'll readily find a dealer for replacement Supra GT-R R34 parts here anyway.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[geekoid]

Or, you can pay some guy in the military to buy the car for you, and have it shipped via military transport.

Re:Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[smeg168]

well that and the fact that the skyline GTR is argueably one of the finest cars ever manufactured, engine capable of power exceeding 650hp on the factory internnals, comp controlled attessa awd that gives it handleing almost unmatched, along with the hicas all wheel steering and a considerably light weight(well the r32 at least). all I can say is I can't wait for the v35 GTR, to be released becouse it is going worldwide, we already havet he skyline over here(g35) now we just need a gtr and I need about 60gs or so and I will be set.
http://www.nissan.co.jp/MS/PRESS/EN/PRESS_RE LEASE/ gt-r.html

Meanwhile ...

[Bazouel]

... 99 % of the world have a yearly income inferior to the price of one of those cars.

Re:Meanwhile ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... 99 % of the world have a yearly income inferior to the price of one of those cars.

Sucks for them.

Excuse me now. I'm going to go get a snack from the fridge. A snack that costs more than 99% of people in this world get paid for an entire day's hard labor. We're all such selfish bastards aren't we?

Hmmm...

[wetson]

Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

...so I assume they'll be installing Windows on them?

Re:Hmmm...

[jack torrence]

This is so similar to the old Victorian-age Great White Hunter concept. Destroying (and thereby reducing the total amount of 959's still left simply so that these men can then have a trophy to show off. I would have thought that preservation and conservation of such a rare species would be more appropriate under the circumstances. This is nothing more than a disgusting display of power being promoted by those who no longer have any vision about their original pathway, and believe that their pampered isolation from the real world still allows them to think that they are normal people. Which they are not. I expect to hear soon that Bill Gates has crashed his vehicle, but that will be blamed on System Failure not his [supposed] lack of ultra high-speed driving skills.

As long as...

[agi]

... Gates plays the crash test dummy, it seems OK to me.

Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

Speed limits are only guidelines

[Moderation abuser]

I don't think there's a single day that speed limits aren't ignored completely by hundreds of thousands of road users.

Ironically, the fastest roads are also the safest. 30mph urban roads are far far more dangerous than 70mph motorways and speeding only causes or contributes to a tiny minority of road accidents, some 7%. The other 93% of accidents are cause by incompetent drivers.

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[turgid]

Ironically, the fastest roads are also the safest. 30mph urban roads are far far more dangerous than 70mph motorways and speeding only causes or contributes to a tiny minority of road accidents, some 7%. The other 93% of accidents are cause by incompetent drivers.

I agree somewhat. The thing is, if these incompetent drivers were driving a bit more slowly, the consequences of their ignorance and stupidity would be less. However, the solution is better driver training and maybe regular driving standards appraisal. I look forward to the day when cars can drive themselves. That way both my wife and I will be able to drink when we go for a curry. A taxi is not always available.

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[rusty0101]

Once a driver gets above 45mph/70kph, there aren't a lot of differences in the results of an accident by having the incompetent drivers drive a bit more slowly.

As a point of comparison, German auto manufacturers have been baffled by the desire of American auto owners to have such things as cup holders in their cars. They are completly aware that distractions from the road are well over 90% of the cause of accidents. About 50% of the German Autobahn does not have any speed limits, and the actual fatality rate on those stretches is significantly lower than what we see in the US. Why? Because drivers in Germany pay attention to the road when driving.

There are other factors as well. If you are driving on the Autobahn, and just cruise along in the left lane as American's tend to do on our freeways, you will get pulled over and ticketed for improper driving. On the Autobahn, the only time you drive in the left lane is when you are passing someone. Once you have passed them, you get into the right lane.

As far as getting a car that will drive itself, I think I would rather that every bar were required to maintain rooms for patrons to recover in. Unfortunately I suspect that all too often they would be used as a type of bordello.

-Rusty

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[sxpert]

Unfortunately I suspect that all too often they would be used as a type of bordello.

uh, what exactly would be unfortunate ??? are you part of those fake-christians bush followers ?

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[turgid]

What's a bordello?

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Autobahn, the only time you drive in the left lane is when you are passing someone. Once you have passed them, you get into the right lane.

This is the general on American highways also, which is why you see the signs advising slower traffic to stay in the right lane. But AFAIK it isn't a law or it isn't enforced at all if it is a law. I sincerely wish that officers would ticket left lane riders. These people obviously don't understand what a high speed corridor is for.

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[sparty]

uh, what exactly would be unfortunate ???

OK, man, do you want to end up recovering from a night of heavy drinking on the same bed that three random guys and two random girls were boinking on the night before? There seem to be some serious sanitation issues...*shudders*

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[afidel]

On the left lane thing I call bullshit. I have driven on the Autobahn many times (lived in Germany a total of about a 12 months over several years) and as long as you are going at least a couple miles per hour over the general flow of traffic you should be ok. You DO have to look out for overtaking traffic and move over for them but that generally isn't a problem unless you are an idiot. btw on limited access roads the most dangerous thing you can do is change lanes, most accidents on the roads occour because two vehicles attempt to occupy the same space, happens most often when one of them is changing lanes. btw the stretch north of Munich that is unlimited speed (one of the few stretches that still is) is where I achieved my personal high speed, 185mph in a F50, would have gone faster but I didn't think I could handle even a fairly modest curve any faster and was worried about slower traffic around the bend.

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Do you have the same stats for fatal accidents? I think you will see a large jump in speed being a cause.

You can use stats to say anything in your favor if you use them in missleading ways. Most acccidents are probably just fender benders, which isn't really what we are talking about here.

Re:Speed limits are only guidelines

[rusty0101]

While I agree with Sparty, my own reason is that if the rooms are being used as brothels, then they are probably being charged for on a quarter hour basis. Using one to get through being drunk does not seem to me to be very cost effective in that situation.

Personally I have nothing against brothels and bordellos. If that's the way that you want to get through your sexual frustrations, or power issues, and some woman is willing to take your money in return for the favor, I don't see any problem with it.

Likewise if you feel a need to get drunk, high, wasted, or doped up, and you can do so without hurting others, I don't have a problem with it. I do take issue with smoking because it killed my mom, but that's purely personal. I also happen to think that this is a prime example of where doing one of the above does hurt others, as an unintended consequence. It won't ender me to politions in the tabaco belt either.

-Rusty

agreed....

[cowlum1]

this is just stupid. why bother with that when you can have [a Porsche Carrera GT]. .

Simply having the fastest car does not garentee enjoyment.
One example I can think of, a car journalist driving the godzilla (skyline)
stating "its like a really really fast pulsar(similar to civic)".
I wouldnt know but maybe these 959s are simply sh*t loads
of fun, maybe faster or more easily tweaked.

if you need an analogy maybe its like the old Amiga OS
you used to love. Only in the car world somtimes
the lastest can be bettered by it's predecesor because the roads
change so much slower than electrics.

dont put your time and money in simply because its
shiny and new or youl be the one
who shows everyone else whats a lemon

flamebait?

[commodoresloat]

Maybe, but I actually thought this comment was quite insightful. It's pretty significant that this is a scam to circumvent safety laws.

Re:flamebait?

[zurmikopa]

Except if you read the article you would see that they didn't actually crash the cars, it was just a suggestion Bill made on how they might get some of them into the states.

Re:flamebait?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares? The safety laws regarding bumpers and ride height are there to protect the person driving the car. If someone is smart enough to make enough money to drive a super car of any make, then let them. They are surely smart enough to understand the danger.

2nd gear

[Anonymous Coward]

So, a looong time ago, when I was working at a gas station in Lake city, a friend drove up in a white 930 turbo. He says"Wanna take Bill Gates new car for a spin?" I fell for the trap... we got out on lake city way, I shift to second and grind the gear horribly. I'm terrified, he cracks up. Apparently Bill thinks he can drive a 400 horsepower cars, but in actuality his lack of skill is harder on the drive train than the crash tests he proposes. Mr. Gates, please leave fine tuned racing machines to drivers worthy of them.

Microsoft Money?

[bastard42]

I had no idea MS Money was that good. Is anyone going to patch gnucach for this? Will I have to wait for Quicken to do it first?

I mean, just think how useful it would be if I could have bills introduced into the Senate from my OSS program anytime I couldn't legally use (or afford) something. Hell, maybe they could implement it for the EU as well. That would be kick ass.

Re:Microsoft Money?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you are not installing Intuit TurboTax that came with Macrovision nonsense...

Speeding??????

[MonkeyPaw]

"Soon there will be a 'new' Porsche 959 racing down highway 520 in Redmond."

Speeding down 520? When? With all the traffic on that highway I think top speed is 15mph.

Re:Speeding??????

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming up from Avondale Rd. through about the Crossroads area you can get a going at a pretty good clip. Of course, the idiots trying to merge from 405 are going to fuck you up no matter what you do. Better to merge back onto 405 N and take the Kenmore route into Seattle. There's more fun curves that way too.

Re:Speeding??????

[Yhippa]

Don't forget the new "Bill G. Highway" to be constructed on top of 520.

Can they all drive stick?

[that _evil _gleek]

"Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren teamed..."
Can they all drive stick?

Because if a stick can't do it, it ought not to be done.... Just a little sheriff's motto from way back.

Yeah, I mean those three should drive around a closed expressway... and if they fsck it up, 1 of them can't even stay in the lines.. then I'd say no.

1 of them is just a copycat... Rugby shirts....I'd wear a ruby shirt, and I'd get picked on by the Ralph Lauren crowd. I doubt if any can even drive like the law, or "street legal."
Can they make a U-turn?

I double deputy dawg them them to try to drive that 'street legal car' , street legal, like the law. I doubt they'll try.

And if you don't know ask.

Useless UK information

[Inda]

When I was a Patternmaker for BMW Rover... (I should stop starting post like this) ...I, along with colleagues, would produce b-grade models for all the 450-600 panels that go into making a complete car. These models were made from mahogany and sometimes had steel inserts for added strength. They had a tolerance of 2mm (+/- 1mm in both directions).

The panel beaters would take the b-grade model and shape sheet steel to match the profile. They do not beat the steel over the model as is the popular opinion.

6 panels are needed for a complete crash test. I never heard of more being needed for the US market.

Re:Useless UK information

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno about Rovers, but I think Porsches are made of a bit more than just panels. In fact I'm thinking they're probably one of the cheapest parts on a 959 (to manufacture), especially considering the many plastic parts.

Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren-- KKK?

[use_compress]

KKK promised to redesign updated turbos, but it failed to come through with the goods.

I smell a new Microsoft conspiracy...

This week on Lifestyles of the Wealthy and...

[Mnemennth]

...Unbelieveably Arrogant!!!

See how a multibillionaire buys changes to federal laws so he can scoot around in a 15-year-old race car, endangering all on the public highways!

Heh. Severe tire damage indeed...
*Gets his shotgun*

Mnem
"Oh My GAWD! The quarterback is TOAST!"

huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

so it's fast ... but can it FLY?
-> www.zeppelin-nt.com
for the same amount of money?

Re:meanest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chile. 11 September 1973. Military takeover, sponsored by Nixon.

Lots of dead people.

This is how America works, and why it's an outrage

[alpha]

Is it because Bill Gates is involved, or did (almost) everybody here
decide to trade in their aspiration for freedom and pursuit of happiness
for this pitiful whining about how there ought to be some law to stop
these "rich bastards" from buying faster cars than most of us here can
afford. It reeks of ill masked jealousy and outright socialism.

There IS an outrage in this story, and it's the fact that there already
WAS a law like that, and that it took these people 10 YEARS and hundreds
of thousands of dollars to obtain PERMISSION from their own government
(the government "by the people", charged with protecting "our rights") to
import a few rare cars! It's an outrage that customs considers these cars
contraband because of some ill advised regulations that clearly shouldn't
apply in a situation like this.

Would the same laws make anyone who builds a custom vehicle a
criminal? Saying that it's for private use off public roads clearly wasn't
a defense, since the cars that were imported under "race" classification
were impounded as well!

It would make a lot more sense for crash-test/emission laws to impose an
additional tax on non-compliant cars. That way mass producers would make
sure their cars comply, but enthusiasts willing to pay the fee wouldn't be
turned into criminals for possessing "illegal" cars. Based on the
principles of freedom that are supposed to govern this country, that's
what i (apparently wrongly) assumed must already be the case!

This article shed some light on a very disturbing example of how our
government appears to have lost its appreciation for who are the servants
and who are the masters, the government or the people that elect and
employ them?

It isn't the bhp which kills you, it's the torque

[Moderation abuser]

It's like saying that someone was electrocuted by 100,000 volts. It's the current which does the damage, I get electrocuted by 50,000 volts quite regularly switching off my TV.

BHP[1] gives a very general indication on just how quickly something will accelerate. It's the force on the road given by the torque which pushes you, the bhp tells you approximately how long it can keep pushing and how fast you might be going at the end of it. It's the level of acceleration which needs handling rather than the resulting speed.

I've seen 125cc engines push out 75bhp but they were slow compared to larger and torqier 75bhp engines because you had to rev them to ridiculous levels to make the power and then try to gear them to make use of it.

[1] What's wrong with kW anyway?

Re:meanest?

[kalieaire]

wow, that's a good piece of history.

it also sends the point to that we don't care about anything unless it's 1, recent, and 2, in our own country.

Whats wrong with the European crash data?

[jonwil]

Presumably, all the safety tests were done when it was registred and made street legal in Italy, Germany or wherever else its legal, wny cant that same test data be used instead of just repeating the same tests in a US lab just to satisfy some beaurocrat in Washington?

Basicly, if you want to import or sell a model in America (or any other country where this happens e.g. Australia) you can do so without new crash tests, emissions tests, model changes and so on as long as:
1.you are importing less than X (where X is some sutable small number) cars
2.all work (such as converting from left to right hand drive or vice versa) necessary to bring things completly up to scratch is carried out before the cars are allowed to be sold, registered and driven.
and 3.the cars are street legal in other countries (e.g. europe or japan)

Re:Whats wrong with the European crash data?

[tommck]

The tests were done by silly Europeans!

No, seriously, nobody's going to trust someone else's test data. We've seen how wrong things can go.

I personally crash test all the cars I buy. It's just not intentional! :-)

Re:Whats wrong with the European crash data?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if NASA can't get the conversion between SI and Imperial right....

Re:Whats wrong with the European crash data?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that was the fault of contractors who are too dumb to use metric, and NASA for allowing such contractors to bid for NASA projects.

smart anyone

[sxpert]

maybe it would have made more sense to get smart cars street legal in the US, to replace those over-consuming SUVs...

Re:smart anyone

[Roguelazer]

Bravo! Finally someone who doesn't think that it's alright to consume a greater percentage of fuel per person than any other country in the world...

Which is a major reason for our deficits.

[Shivetya]

Tagging is a major cause of pork barrel spending. It also is an avenue for some stupid laws to get into effect. Many times Congressmen will effectively kill bills by attaching riders, akin to poison pills.

The true value of the article is that is shows the layman just how convoluted, and corrupt, the process really is. There is really no doubt that Congress, and the Government itself, has no other interest other than its own. This type of system lends itself to the abuse of those in power and those with influence over those in that power.

Re:Which is a major reason for our deficits.

[Sloppy]

One of my ideas would be to use Congress' hatred of the future against them.

It would be nice if there were a law that made it so that riders couldn't happen; a law could only cover one topic. The problem with that, of course, is that no one in Congress would be willing to pass such a law. But why not pass something with a delay in it? In 2003, pass a law that cleans up the system but doesn't go into effect until 2023 (or 2033 or whatever). Politicians seem to be ok with creating problems for people in the future that they won't personally have to deal with since they'll be retired or dead by then. Why not screw your successor and make his pork-barrel corruption harder? It won't be your problem.

The main resistance would be corporate. Your senator doesn't expect to still be in power 40 years from now, but the entities who pay him, do.

Re:Which is a major reason for our deficits.

[Jeremi]

It would be nice if there were a law that made it so that riders couldn't happen; a law could only cover one topic. The problem with that, of course, is that no one in Congress would be willing to pass such a law.

That problem is solved of course -- simply attach this anti-rider bill as a rider to another bill that is broadly popular and guaranteed to pass. Et voila!

Re:Which is a major reason for our deficits.

[secolactico]

simply attach this anti-rider bill as a rider to another bill that is broadly popular and guaranteed to pass

Attach it to the next Congress/Senate salary increase bill. They won't even stop to think before voting "aye".

So that's were the savings from outsourcing goes

[gmezero]

Just think of all the money they have saved, why, clearly enough to consider WRECKING SEVERAL 959s just for the hell of it!!?!?! WTFIUWTS!!!!

Porsches Wont Help on 520

[Solokron]

Porsches are not going to help out much on 520 if they are ever going east bound at 5:30pm+. It is a parking lot around that time.

Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren

[zaphod_es]

The sad thing about most supercars is that they are owned by old men with no idea how to drive them.

Re:Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren

[Anonymous Coward]

The sad thing about most supercars is that they are owned by old men with no idea how to drive them so not true...

old men who know how not to wreck them
the same old man who was a cocky teen and put
his beater into a kirb

All this to feel macho?

[Anonymous Coward]

They went through all this trouble to enable them to feel macho? Couldn't they just have gone out and bought another gun like loyal patriotic Americans?

Easy to handle supercar, too...

[Goonie]

From all that I've read about the 959, it's apparently reasonably easy to drive at sane speeds, and if you up the ante a bit four-wheel-drive tends to tame the handling characteristics of cars quite nicely.

And frankly I'd expect Bill Gates in a 959 to be a hell of a lot safer than a random Hollywood actor in, say, a Dodge Viper with that rubber chassis it's lumbered with...

Re:Easy to handle supercar, too...

[smithmc]

From all that I've read about the 959, it's apparently reasonably easy to drive at sane speeds, and if you up the ante a bit four-wheel-drive tends to tame the handling characteristics of cars quite nicely.

Plus the thing's got a full roll cage IIRC - necessary due to the super-light Kevlar bodywork. The thing was designed for rallying, after all (it won 1st/2nd/6th in the Paris-Dakar rally one year). Probably safer than most cars on the road today.

I wonder how fast he and his pals will drive...

[vudufixit]

I was almost killed last night by some a-hole driving a Mustang at 45 mph in a convenience store parking lot. Rich and famous people seem to get off easy in their fast machines, even when they hurt or kill someone.

Re:I wonder how fast he and his pals will drive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Bubba Joe, did you done see that rich and famous a-hole in his Mustang? He done thinks he's all cool cause he's driving an expensive fast car like Burt Reynold did!

One day I reckon to get my Trans-Am offen them blocks and I'll show him!

Gran Turismo

[Smoking]

Hey Bill, I've heard there will be nice bundles of the new Gran Turismo 4 with the PS2 for christmas...
Maybe it would be a little more appropriate and a bit cheaper?

Q

Somewhere in Redmond....

[wazzzup]

(Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer walk toward Bill's Porche 959)

Bill: Uhmmm, say Steve, I've got to run a few errands before our Senator bribing today so...you might as well drive in your own car, mkay?

Steve: Don't worry about it, I'll just tag along (grabs door handle)

Bill: Okay, Steve...listen, I don't want you in my car (Steve stares on with a wounded and confused look). It's...it's your armpits Steve. I'd rather not have your monkey sweat all over my new car.

Steve: But...I...

Bill: For the love of God Steve, put on some deoderant!

Steve: Deodorant?

Bill: Deodorant!

Steve: Deodorant?!

Bill: (Runs around the parking lot in a fit of crazed anger about Steve's oblivion to his profuse sweating) Deodorant! Deodorant! Deodorant!....Deodorant! Deodorant!

Re:Somewhere in Redmond....

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, are a remarkable person. I salute you!

I can just see the first time ...

[constantnormal]

... Bill Gates is pulled over for speeding.

After a lengthy highway chase, unable to evade helicopters or outrun radio, he pulls over, and as the cops rush forward to apprehend him, he pulls out his checkbook and says

"Who shall I make the check out to?"

Re:I can just see the first time ...

[Krumme]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time.

According to The Smoking Gun, Billy was arrested back in 1977 after a traffic violation: The Smoking Gun

Nothing like the good ole Internet to bring back memories long gone, eh? :)

/Krumme

Re:I can just see the first time ...

[afidel]

That reminds me of one of the more famous comedians routines. He talks about getting a new sports car just after he made it and having out on a rainy day. He sees a state trooper by the side of the road and knows he can't safely slow down before he gets to him so he accelerates! When the trooper finally catches up to him many miles down the road the cop asks him what he thinks he's doing. He replied that he can afford the ticket and that he just wanted to see the cop get wet =)

This evokes ...

[Anonymous Coward]

pictures of Microsoft ads

That's fast

[TecraMan]

Wow... 3.3s from 0 to 60mph. That's about the same as the average Windows boot to bluescreen time!

This was done already

[subk]

GIAC (www.giacusa.com) has been tuning smog-legal 959's for years now. Microsoft did not do something new here.

Re:This was done already

[CAIMLAS]

Hey now - let's not get offensive. Nobody said MS did anything new, in this situation, or otherwise. :P

MS is Best for the Job. Give 'em Some Credit!

[neildiamond]

Best quote: Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

If somebody knows how to crash, it is Microsoft.

This is already being done

[(eternal_software)]

Ok, so Microsoft is involved (sorta) but this isn't really news ... this has been going on for a while:

"According to Dick Merritt at the Department of Transportation, these are the other labs capable of federalizing Porsche's 959 ubercar:

JK Technologies LLC, Baltimore. Jonathan Weisheit of JK says they charge $25,000 to $50,000 to do the job. It takes 90 to 120 days and involves adding air injection, catalyst, changing the evaporative system and reprogramming the computer.

G&K Automotive Conversions, Los Angeles. George Gemayel of G&K says they charge $37,500 to federalize the 959 and $45,000 to legalize it for California use. The process takes three to four months and does not include a horsepower test. He "can't remember" exactly how many they've done. Phone (714) 545-9503.

Wallace Laboratories, Houston. Bill Wallace charges $30,000 for the process from "start to finish." This price includes all federal taxes, duties, U.S. Customs clearances, tuneup and conversion costs, plus test and certificate charges.

I still don't get it...

[Ozan]

What is the point of owning a street legal racing car when you aren't allowed to actualy race it on the street beyond the first gear?

Dear Bill,
here is my suggestion: take some time off! Visit lovely Germany with its elaborated system of unlimited highways famously known as Autobahn. Experience the genuine feeling of passing by pathetic, unworthy Volkswagen Passats, leaving them behind on the right lane like they are standing still while zooming over the tarmac on the left lane at unimaginable 215mph, and all this without any fears of the highway police who gratefuly welcomes anyone who obeys the speed limit of at least 40mph. Or choose the inter-city roads traveling the landscapes. Although limited to 60mph, the beautiful picturesque design and lay-out of the road provide an unporecedented experience.

But maybe you will find this too expensive, for there is one thing that even you can not buy and no one has too much of, you do not have the time.

ok, so something good for a change. i'm heartened

[kraksmoka]

i can admire a good car hack. i used to have a hacked mustang myself. wasn't as fast, expensive or rare, but it sure wasn't street legal! no cats at all, no ac, just direct vents, 4 on the floor (opel tranny, manual, installed upside down!), 4 cyl 2.3l , power steering/brakes, and what fun 2 drive!!!

Wake me...

[MImeKillEr]

... when the Bugatti Veyron hits the street.

Fast Facts:

1001 HP
Two clutches
7 speed tranny
0-186mph in 14 seconds

Then there's the US' own street-legal Saleen S7 with a pricetag over $400,000.

Fast Facts:

500 HP *Ford* Motor
Hand built to owner dimensions
Overall height of 41"
0-60 in under 4 seconds (don't list a specific 3.whatever)
Top speed over 200mph

Re:Wake me...

[afidel]

Saleen S7 sucks. It's WAY overpriced and the 0-60 is only 3.8. I know tuners that have achieved over 600HP out of that same block without nitro. The top speed is impressive as is the fact that you can almost drive the car near those speeds (Saleen did a VERY nice job on the suspension tuning, but not nice enough to justify the price, for half as much you can get a Lingenfelter Vette with 550bhp and 550lb/ft of torque.)

Re:Wake me...

[MImeKillEr]

Persoanlly, I'd rather have a 1970 Dodge Challenger 340.

Or better yet, a 1971 Dodge Demon 340.

But thats just me.

Gates and a fast car

[chia_monkey]

Is anyone else having a hard time picturing Bill Gates speeding along in a sports car? I honestly can't picture it. It's almost as bad as the Balmer dance, but about 600 times worse. Even beyond midlife crisis. I want to see pictures.

959

[patricksevenlee]

I just have two thoughts on this:

1. Anyone who drives a 959 and parks it on the street will never see it again. It'd be in a chop shop faster than a New York second.

2. Nothing says, "I've got the smallest penis in the world" like a 959 (or being the majority shareholder of MSFT)

Re:959

[photomic]

1. Anyone who drives a 959 and parks it on the street will never see it again. It'd be in a chop shop faster than a New York second.

Doubtful. Chop shops exist to supply cheap parts to existing models. Until 959 sales catch up with Camrys, it'd be pretty hard to move parts. Joyriders would be a bigger problem.

Enough money will get you anything...

[gatkinso]

...anywhere - not just in the U.S..

News for nerds - stuff that matters ?

[bigmouth_strikes]

Maybe I should know better than to ask this, but shouldn't /. draw the line for what is posted just a tad higher than this ?

Exactly what is newsworthy here.... oh yeah it's something that can be used to possibly discredit Bill Gates. Tabloid material.

Sheesh! I thought it was a good thing that they made the cool 959s street legal, so at first I didn't understand the angle at all.

Good use of money

[varslot]

I'm glad to see them use tieir money on something good, and not wasting it on stupidities ...

Bottom line:

[Larsing]

A Porsche with a water-cooled engine is not a real Porsche - plain and simple!

Re:Bottom line:

[Alan Partridge]

So the 962 wasn't a real Porsche?

Nor the 928?

Nor the Boxster?

Nor the 968?

Interesting...

Re:Bottom line:

[Larsing]

Absolutely right!

And not the new 911 either...

Street Racing? You A$$hole!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill gates and street racing.

I get the feeling most of you love Fast and Furious here?

Why would you want to spend money on making a race car road legal.

Why don't we spend time making porno legal for young kids too?

Race cars are funner, safer, and more exciting when raced. Yes, it is more exciting to watch some man racec a porsche on a race track, than it is to see someone die on the news.

Microsoft products

[tedgyz]

If ever there was a reason to stop buying Micro$oft products, this is it. I like capitalism, but when I see the rich pissing away money like this, it just makes me angry. Capitalism fosters productivity and gives monetary rewards in return. Sadly, it goes all out of proportion at some point and we get to watch the overly rich play with our money.

I usually reserve this sort of angst for the self-centered, dim-witted Hollywood crowd. Somehow, something is terribly wrong. These guys are crash testing race cars while the rest of the world starves. No wonder the rest of the world is mad at us.

Porsche, Hitler and Godwin...

[Larsing]

Remember, that Ferdinand Porsche designed the VW Beatle on the request of Adolph Hitler...

There, I said it! Godwin's Law kicks in, this thread is now officially dead! ;-)

STREET RACING, WHAT A JOKE

[Anonymous Coward]

Read up on the history of Bill Gates.
He was caught speeding several times during his youth. Look up Bill Gates Mug shot.

Bill Gates condones in street racing.

Only a real man would face up to a real race track. Instead he is going to kill himself and another family on his way to work driving his road legal street racer.

Not to mention the amount of pity I feel for him giving porsche a bad name.

Cashing, then Cra$hing

[Anonymous Coward]

Gate$ got bored with seeing Windoze crash over and over again (surprising that he could take it for so long without getting bored, even if he is a full-on Asperger's case... ). So, something else to crash... maybe he and Balmer will be there when it happens big-time.

BILL GATES DIED TODAY, STREET RACING

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates condones in street racing.

Only a real man would face up to a real race track. Instead he is going to kill himself and another family on his way to work driving his road legal street racer.

I feel sorry that he is giving porsche a bad name.

Spending money funding a race or a test drive in a forumula one car would be a hell of a lot more manly than turning a 959 into a "fast and furious" joke.

Ask any REAL professional racer out there how he drives on the road. They either don't drive at all, or they are very slow drivers. They keep the racing for the track.

Hmm. No problem./

[mrselfdestrukt]

I say if some rich fscker can afford to buy a 959, afford to crash one and can find the space or place to do 215 mph then let the fscker die if he wants to.
It's simple.

wow...

[pulse2600]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of those!!!

Carmakers must crash test all cars..

[vor]

EVERY car that is to be DOT approved must have several crash tests (Frontal, side impact, etc) to prove the occupants would be safe in the event of a crash. The reason many limited edition sports cars from Europe were never sold here is the companies could not afford to crash several of their 200k+++ machines to get approval. If Bill Gates had let 2-3 959's crash and the crash dummies proved the cars were safe, then it would have been easier to get DOT approval.

Re:meanest?

[Anonymous Coward]

> it also sends the point to that we don't care about anything unless it's 1, recent, and 2, in our own country.

Not to mention the point that 9/11/2001 happened because the US has a nasty way of putting into place events like 9/11/1973. Someday you'll learn that, sometimes, people don't like putting up with that sort of crap! I tend to doubt it, though...

Please No!

[not_a_george]

I have not yet read the comments, but I can say this for sure


IT DOES NOT RUN LINUX
I think it does run Tron (sp?) though

Re the safety of the spear

[ConfusedVorlon]

Regarding driver's compensating for percieved car safety by driving faster etc. I heard a great thought experiment.

If you want to make driving really safe - you should make it compulsory to have a metal pointed spike attached to the steering wheel and aimed at the driver's heart.

Theat would make people think!

Woo Hoo!

[mjh]

As an embarrased Linux zealot who uses Microsoft Money to manage his budget, it's nice to see that I'm finally going to get some benefit out of it to pay for all of the humiliation that I've had to take because I actually like that piece of software.

So how do you like me now? I got a street legal Porsche coming to me! HAH! No more embarrassment for me. Soon as I get that Porsche in my driveway I can hang my head high. Yessiree. Just waiting for the Porsche. Soon as I read this article and figure out how to pick mine up.

... reading article ...

Nevermind

"...a top speed of 215MPH."

[fudgefactor7]

There is no reason to have a car that will go that fast unless you're in NASCAR. Perhaps if auto manufacturers would focus not on power and speed but on efficiency we wouldn't be in the oil crush of the Middle East. No regular car has any reason for going over 85. National highway speed is nowhere near 215.

Re:"...a top speed of 215MPH."

[notbob]

Bah....

Have you EVER ACTUALLY RACED AT SPEEDS OVER 130MPH???

It's a huge adrenaline rush, like when I hit 142mph on the way to work racing some ass* on a motorcycle. Mind you I was in a Red 99 BMW M3 thats built to do those speeds, built to brake at those speeds, and is designed for those speeds.

Real racers drive cars built for racing, not camrys.

I agree the typical soccer mom has no need for a car that goes over 85mph. But I should have the right to a lane of the highway that I can go as fast as I like because I put the money to have a car that is safe for those speeds and the experience to drive at those speeds safely.

My m3 handles 142mph just like it does 70mph... stable, solid, and adept.

My gf's 2000 cougar (used to drive this pos), hit 135 like it was a major challenge and the whole car was inadequate and unsafe at those speeds.

The m3 hits 142 like it's a cake walk.

Re:"...a top speed of 215MPH."

[Greyfox]

25 north of Denver routinely averages 90 mph. There've been days out there when I couldn't keep up with traffic at that speed.

Re:"...a top speed of 215MPH."

[fudgefactor7]

...and when they scrape you guys off the pavement with a wet sponge because you were doing 143MPH, hit a wall out of control, or kill someone and you end up in cuffs in a real-live fuck-you-in-the-ass prison, I won't require motivation to point and laugh. Those signs on the side of the road, you know, the ones that say really retarded things like "Speed Limit 55"? Yeah, that's not just a suggestion, it's the law. The fact that Denver has problems is immaterial. The fact that your cars may be able to handle that speed and are built for it is equally immaterial. Tell me, did you get formal, rigorous, professional training to drive that those speeds? Do you know, off the top of your head, how long it will take your car to go from 143MPH to 0? No? Well then you're a fool and ill equipped to deal with the situation.

Can't wait to read of your deaths. I need a good laugh.

Another Option: Register in Europe, drive in US

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill could've registered the car here in Europe and have it flown to the US whenever he wanted to. Only trouble: The vehicle must/should run more than 50% of the time in the place of registering. (get TWO cars then :-)

Quite a few of US-cars can be seen driven around in Europe with US-plates without having to go through the sometimes tedious requirements of having to upgrade it to local standards.

And European motorcyclists sometimes take their bikes to the US for tours. No trouble there either.

Still slower than a bike...

[klaxor]

making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds....

So, it's almost as fast as my 22 year old, 85 hp motorcycle then....

While I'm inclined to respect anything with 575 horsepower, I can't help but wonder why people buy porsches when a motorcycle is about 1/4 of the price and notably faster. And arguably more fun.

Re:Still slower than a bike...

[doon]

especially this bike

http://www.marineturbine.com/superbike/

250HP , 500 lbs :)

Typical /. bias

[Anonymous Coward]

Would this have been reported if it were Quicken and not Microsoft Money that funded this?

Oh. Nevermind.

Now we get to talk about power rangers

[Moderation abuser]

Cos there's a lot of them around. Sunday was it? A couple of the benefits a car gives you is that it's much easier to drive than a bike and you're not as likely to die when you crash.

There are thousands of weekend warrior riders who dress up like Power Rangers on colour co-ordinated bikes but who do run-in annual milages and can't ride for toffee. Hell, I leave them for dead giving away 100bhp on my current bike.

I ride at maybe 70% on the road cos unlike the track I don't know that over the hill or the blind corner there isn't a tractor sitting in the middle of the road spreading muck.

The Gnomes of Zurich,

[Saarus]

with the help of Microsoft, the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow, the Trekkies, and the Orbital Mind Lasers will Attack to Control Porsche International.

The Gnomes will be contributing 25MB to the Attack.

Any takers?

Modding this OT indicates you are no true Geek.

--><--

Gates arrested for speeding - Mugshot

[keyidol]

www.mugshots.org/misc/bill-gates.html

Guess it is true..! ;)

I don't use it..

[dentar]

I don't use Microsoft Money.

I use SQL-Ledger. ;-)

Ways around this already.

[The-Perl-CD-Bookshel]

All you need is someone who is a german citizen to apply to bring his car to the United States. The "permit" that the car recieves expires in one year from the date issued. To renew? Simply drive out of the country (Canada, Mexico) and get your update from customs. There are a handful of rich guys here in NJ driving Lamborghini Diablo VT Roadsters and Lotus Elises that are sporting foreign plates and never have a problem.

Seinfeld

[Anonymous Coward]

Maroon Golf sucks! Black Saab rule!

So f-ing what...

[musicscene]

We are s'posed to care how the Micro$oft cartel spends their money? I just can't get into a caring mode about this... unless you left the fact out that they are going to stay in the cars slated for crash testing.

The Slashdot poparatzi has nothing better to do than report on this crap?

("Hey Gonz, tell us how you really feel...")

Performance figures WAY out

[davew666]

Whoever wrote this article has not got their head screwed on straight. It claims that this modified 959 will get to 100mph in 11 seconds - that's a pile of rubbish. Considering the McLaren that they compare it to will get to 100 in just over 6 seconds. I reckon something like 7 is more appropriate for the 959.

Re:Performance figures WAY out

[AFirmGraspOfReality]

Hmmm... good point. I'd say 11 seconds is a bit long, too. However, the McLaren has a monster (IIRC 625HP) non-turbo motor. No lag at all. The 959, however, needs the turbos to spool up. Apparently, (on the original) when the boost came up, it was nothing short of orgasmic.

Re:Performance figures WAY out

[Anonymous Coward]

If the 959 is doing 0-60 in 3.3 seconds on 2.8L, I don't think turbo lag is an issue.

- DRFSR

Speed doesn't kill

[Moderation abuser]

Bad drivers do.

Bad drivers kill many many more people than speeding does. Speeding causes or contributes to only 7% of accidents. That includes both exceeding the limit and inappropriate speed - going too fast for the conditions.

Re:Speed doesn't kill

[TClevenger]

Speeding causes or contributes to only 7% of accidents. That includes both exceeding the limit and inappropriate speed - going too fast for the conditions.

When NHTSA tallies up accidents where "speed" was a factor, that includes driving too safe for conditions, driving faster than the posted limit (even when it is safe), and even driving too SLOWLY for conditions. Also, if a "speeding" driver, having the right of way, is T-boned by someone else who failed to stop at a stop sign, that's considered a speed-related accident--even though the speed had nothing to do with it.

Less than 1,000 miles?

[magarity]

"The average car we buy has less than 1000 miles on it"

I'm amazed that cars originally selling in 1988 for almost 200k$US are up for sale with less than 1,000 miles on them. By all accounts, these are fine machines and perfectly roadworthy. So just why did people shell out for them in the first place? If you can afford such a car, you should be able to afford to drive it more than 1,000 miles all this time!

A *Couple*?

[Greyfox]

A 20 oz bottle in the vending machine at work is $1. So it'd be *half* a bottle of coke, or 2/3rds of a can of coke.

Bill: Can I have the rest of the coke? Please?

Re:A *Couple*?

[adamjaskie]

Buy 12 packs. Much cheaper. $3 for 12 cans is better than $1 for a bottle.

Re:A *Couple*?

[Overzeetop]

Yeah, but Porche's don't come in 12 packs, AFAIK - you have to buy them one at a time from a vending machine...oh, I guess the analogy breaks down there.

Re:A *Couple*?

[adamjaskie]

I wonder if you could get a fleet discount if you bought more than 50 or something?

BS - MS didn't have anything to do with it

[djupedal]

Gates didn't do shit to make this happen.... As the article states, Gates was powerless and had to wait like everyone else.

Re:A Cannonball Run...

[derrickh]

You mean like this?
The Gumball Rally

D

The perfect car!

[Anonymous Coward]

For men with stupendous bank accounts, and very very tiny penises.

This is geeky.

[Richthofen80]

Fast cars are sexy. They're an engineering marvel. The government should have no say in the car we buy or import.

Everyone hates Bill Gates for buying legislation, but is it any surprise? When you build a system that restricts the freedoms of individuals, the only people who win are 'special interests'. The government shouldn't have any control over the regulation of private industry. That way, the government could never be corrupted by rich folks, since money can't buy that which the government doesn't control.

the law you speak of??

[Anonymous Coward]

well, the us law requires NEW(ER) (at least last 10 years) cars MUST have 7mph (back then) now 11mph bumpers. meaning that it has to cost under some amount (1000 or 2000 USD) to repair the car if it were in a little bender. Also, EPA requirements. Might go for cali, if you can pass there you can pass anywhere, even hawaii.

The Nissian skyline fall under the crash test issue, althow motorex (importer) has a front/rear bumper kit to make this all legal, hence you can import them and drive them. I know a couple of people who have one.

Now I think the 959 only real problem was the EPA requirements, and a little tune up say motec m880 with an ADL, some nice ball bering turbos, and a intercooler or two, would make the car more efficent and make a LOT more power....

must be nice to have all that money, ballen out of control!

Reminds me of...

[mwood]

...Ginny's comment to her boyfriend in that Doonesbury strip from some years ago: "Just what you need: a $30,000 car to drive to Burger King in." [Adjusted for inflation]

Why not just buy a GT2 or GT3?

[swb]

Very nearly the same performance numbers and probably a better drive than the 959. Not as "exclusive", but at $130k, I don't see too many of them anyway.

And it's not like Gates or Lauren actually *drive* ANYWHERE very much, they're likely driven in limos or something. I have a hard time believing any of them including Allen is going to jump in the 959 and drive anywhere.

And if they absolutely had to have a 959 and they have the money, why not simply buy a sacrificial GT2 or GT3, import the 959 as parts, re-assemble it in the US and register it under the GT2/3 VIN number?

Or just bring it in as parts and register it as a home-built vehicle? Surely the zillions of rod-n-custom cars out there that are essentially built from scratch and driven on the street have some loophole or other for registration as a custom vehicle -- they can't all be registered under a junkers VIN.

Racing down 520? HAH!

[Dak_Peoples]

Yeah Right, For those who live in Washington State along the 4OH5 and 520 corridor, there is no way any of the Microsoft $$ are going to be racing anywhere :) Might have to try one of the floating bridges at 4 AM.

sticker shock is relative

[talmage]

That puts things in perspective for me. When my friends think I'm odd for spending $2000 on a bicycle, I'll tell them about the $400K 959.

The autoweek article is full of lies...

[dinodriver]

There are many lies and/or inaccuracies in that story. Here is the straight dope:

legal 959 info

Well, I guess now we know...

[adrianbaugh]

where Bill wants to go today!

Grow some balls, you fucking pussy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sheesh.

More interesting but old news now

[drinkypoo]

Is how Motorex did the same thing to legalize the Nissan Skyline, which costs a mere $85,000 for the top model. heh. I grew up in Santa Cruz and went to school at Branciforte Jr. High, which is right down the street from Canepa's shop, they've always had a load of sexy cars in there. I think my favorite that I've seen there has to be the Lamborghini SUV, which is an awfully cool vehicle, but I hear it's a maintenance nightmare. It was in the shop frequently :)

If MS Money got him a 959...

[go3]

...what would he have gotten if he used Great Plains?

The real truth about the US 959

[britt]

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.ph p? threadid=1594

Here is some info from the guy who did the work for
Gates, and wrote the 959 portion of the Show & Display law.

Canepa Design really has had nothing to do with this

B

Buying Laws

[iendedi]

So Bill and friends somehow managed to get a bill into law so that they can have a new toy?

And we dare to wonder why or how his company so elusively avoids legal responsibility for it's actions?

Bwahahahahaha!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought an imported Skyline GT-R R34 for.... oooh, I think it was about 13,500 UKP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is around 20,000 USD? Either way, it's peanuts really for what it is.

Very nice car thanks, enjoy your Accords... ;o)

Re:Bwahahahahaha!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

When i "just" spent "around $20,000" i tend to know it to the cent. Its not "for.... oooh, I think it was about"

Thankfully living in Texas

[Anonymous Coward]

I am really glad I live in Texas where the state legislature meets one time every two years.

If they met one time every three years, things would be much better.

I am really glad our govenor does not cut deals with government worker labor unions to add 12 additional paid holidays per year. That means they get 10 or so normal holidays + 12 extra ones + vacation. No wonder California is is a black hole.

Article here -> http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21 479~1630266,00.html#

A bit late

[York the Mysterious]

This was in the Porsche mags like 2-3 months ago on the front cover. Independent fuel controller system was needed to bring it up to emissions standards. Bet it still doesn't pass in CA though considering nothing does.

good

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope Bill wraps his around a telephone pole

Buying enough for crash tests . . .

[taustin]

Bill Gates suggested buying enough to do the crash tests, but they had federal law changed instead.

I guess a congressman costs less than a Porche.

personally i'd rather just get this

[size1one]

The Bugatti Veyron has 1001hp, all-wheel drive, and is street legal! 0-185 in around 14 seconds (0-60 is around 2.2 seconds) top spead of only 248 MPH because it has electronic speed-limiting to prevent tire damage. this thing will smoke any other street legal car

though we are talking about bill gates, he'll probably just get one of these too

3.3 seconds?

[greysky]

making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds

A Kawasaki Z1000 will do 0-60 in 3.15, costs only $8500, and comes street legal. Once again there's a faster, cheaper alternative to the Microsoft Solution...

Re:3.3 seconds?

[Jonny 290]

Yes, and when you crash, they can soak you up with a sponge and put you in a ziploc baggie. Maybe a Kool-aid container.

Re:3.3 seconds?

[Lord_Dweomer]

"A Kawasaki Z1000 will do 0-60 in 3.15, costs only $8500, and comes street legal."

Yes, yes it does. I could beat one too. In my '86 Jeep Wagoneer Ltd. for that matter. Know how? Its very simple.

Race starts.....I jerk my wheel to the left (or right depending on what side the bike is on) and accelerate.

Game. Set. Squish.

Re:3.3 seconds?

[hankaholic]

True, but try paying a hooker to give you a BJ while riding your Z1000.

The 959, on the other hand...

Re:3.3 seconds?

[Cederic]

If he's more than 2 yards to the side, he's actually past the front of the car before you get to him.

Best to stick a metal bar through his spokes - that'll sort him.

~Cederic

You should be pissed off

[geekoid]

at the representitive that wasted tax payer dollars to get this through.

Re:OH MY GOD! (obligatory HHGTTG quote)

[TClevenger]

"I was passed by one of these mothers once, out by the Axel Nebula," said Ford, "I was going flat out and this thing just strolled past me, star drive hardly ticking over. Just incredible."

Zaphod whistled appreciatively.

"Ten seconds later", said Ford, "it smashed straight into the third moon of Jaglan Beta."

"Yeah, right?"

"Amazing looking ship though. Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a cow."

Re:This is how America works, and why it's an outr

[nmos]

Is it because Bill Gates is involved, or did (almost) everybody here
decide to trade in their aspiration for freedom and pursuit of happiness
for this pitiful whining about how there ought to be some law to stop
these "rich bastards" from buying faster cars than most of us here can
afford.

No, what pisses many of us off is that BECAUSE they were rich a few folks were able to get their own personal law passed. The flip side is that (as you suggested) it shouldn't TAKE millions of dollars to get a perfectly reasonable change of law passed.

It would make a lot more sense for crash-test/emission laws to impose an
additional tax on non-compliant cars.

So if you're rich you can ignore the law that everyone else has to live by, I don't see that as an improvement or even necessary in this case. The purpose of these DOT regs is mostly to protect consumers from being tricked into buying unsafe vehicles so it would seem to me that for low volume cars all that is necessary is to make sure the customer is aware of it's status (have them sign a form saying that the car hasn't been certified and may kill them).

Porsche: There is no substitute...

[cayenne8]

FINALLY...something positive and useful out of Redmond!!!

:-)

I'll never be able to afford one of these...but, now I at least have hope of seeing one up close someday. Wow...always dreamed of this car....Porsche...there is no substitute!!

Old Joke

[rocketflyboy]

Q: What's the difference between Porsches and porcupines?

A: Porcupines carry their pricks on the outside!

$400k, and still slower than a motorbike

[murderdeathkill]

0 to 60 in 3.3 seconds?????????? That's just sad, what with top motorbikes doing 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, and middle weight sportbikes, in around three flat.

Still it's nice to see Bill do something with his billions. I mean WTF is the point of having $40bn, if you're not gonna do stuff like this, or drive a diamond encrusted Tatra. Feh you might as well live on a measly 100 mill.

Just like Bill Gates

[geekoid]

to think its ok to get a product without relevent crash testing.

Re:This is how America works, and why it's an outr

[pmz]

It seems many Slashdotters (myself included to some extent) can't figure out that they can't always have their cake and eat it, too, even in a truly free country.

Big corrupt government bad, but...

somehow a poorly-run government-run universal health care good?
somehow poorly-run government-run housing and welfare programs good?
somehow poorly-run government-run education is good?
somehow using government power to throw the world's trade into imbalance good?
somehow domestic spy networks protecting from "terrorism" good?

And so on. It seems most people just want everything without any give or take. Kinda sad, in a way. This is why I have trouble listening to Democrat politicians speak. Republicans are just as bad, too, just more subtle. It's too bad that getting more than just two opinions on a subject into the government is so terribly difficult. It's almost as if people can't choose beyond two options slapped down in front of them (I don't know, maybe it's because they have only two pointing fingers).

Too right. Speed saves lives for bikers

[The Tyro]

Motorcyclists have that size/maneuverability advantage, and have to play it to the hilt to survive. I don't know how many bikers are on /., but it's dangerous out there, folks.

My bike is also a performance machine... zero to 100 and back FAR faster than most any automobile, and it's saved my life. I used to ride cruiser bikes (always liked them, and they are more comfortable for a long ride), but switched over to a performace sport bike after coming to the conclusion that speed is sometimes your only defense. It sucks to dig into that throttle and find nothing there, particularly when you NEED IT to get out of trouble.

Hear me out... I know it seems counter-intuitive.

When you are on a bike, your only hope of survival is to avoid contact with other vehicles. A tap to them can be death for you. Airbags, seatbelts, don't exist for bikes... all you have is a helmet (hopefully... I'm a fan, not everyone is), some leather, a good pair of boots, and some gloves. If you have a car that starts to come into your lane (usually because he/she didn't see you, or didn't look), you have three choices: swerve off the road, panic-braking, or accelerate out of the way. Swerving off the road doesn't work if there's a curb there, and any dirt/gravel you swerve into may make you dump the bike. Panic-braking may work, but then you get run over by the vehicle behind you. Acceleration is often your best choice... and the faster you can do so, the better. I've laid a few bikes down... it's no fun, and I'm in no hurry to do it again. Speed also helps you outrun the occasional drunk or tailgating idiot, and I'm convinced some people out there just hate bikers, and will kill one given the opportunity. Think it doesn't happen? You haven't talked to enough bikers... I know a few who have been run off the road intentionally.

Now, you have to ride smart; I'm not a big proponent of going 100mph on a residential street... that kind of foolishness can get you dead in a hurry. Working in emergency services, I've unsuccessfully tried to piece back together waaaay too many young speed demons. Riding like a maniac will catch up with you, it's just a question of when.

That said, speed, properly applied, can save lives. If you take all comers (including the rampaging, speeding drunks) It probably kills more than it saves, but I'd say that's more of a reflection on the rider than their chosen velocity.

Ralph Lauren

[torklugnutz]

I met Ralph Lauren about 3 weeks ago, in Telluride, CO with is about 30 miles from his ranch. He was driving a McLaren F1. One of his 2 passengers told me there were only 6 of those in the US, and 2 were Ralphs. Maybe next year, he'll show up in his 959. I look forward to seeing it.

Re:Ralph Lauren

[EaTiN cOfFeE bEaNs]

I have read about people who have ran into Ralph Lauren while he was driving. A particular story I have heard is about a guy chasing him down on his motorcycle after seeing a Porsche 959 fly right by him, and, of course, it's Lauren. Just because the car isn't street-legal doesn't mean that they won't take their nice, fast cars out for a drive every once in a while...

Re:This is how America works, and why it's an outr

[nilsey]

It would make a lot more sense for crash-test/emission laws to impose an
additional tax on non-compliant cars. That way mass producers would make
sure their cars comply, but enthusiasts willing to pay the fee wouldn't be
turned into criminals for possessing "illegal" cars. Based on the
principles of freedom that are supposed to govern this country, that's
what i (apparently wrongly) assumed must already be the case!

so you are saying rich people should be able to pay to pollute more and make the public roads less safe?

as this article states, they are paying to modify their cars to comply with standards. as a breather annd road user i find that preferable.

Being unemployed for eleven months...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. Stanford MSEE degree and all, and I can't afford to pay the mortgage on my 1500 sq. ft. house, why the hell should I give a damn about Billie Gates and his $400,000 car?

speed kills

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, speed doesn't kill. It's the DIFFERENCE in speed that kills. If you don't harmonize with traffic then behaviour results that makes accidents and death more likely. That includes turtles as well as speedy assholes.

RE: speed differentials killing

[King_TJ]

I don't agree with your idea about logging the speeds a performance vehicle is driven, and punishing someone automatically for driving in excess of some predetermined limit.

From strictly a standpoint of increased safety, sure - it might help a little bit. But there's much more to it than that. For one thing, the people spending the money needed to own one of these cars in the first place aren't generally the "average" or even "inexperienced" driver. They're more likely to fit the profile of a wealthy individual who buys the car for "show" and "bragging rights", while not really having much time or inclination to drive around at reckless speeds on public roads.

Therefore, I think you're talking about legal solutions to problems that hardly exist. In the meantime, putting such laws in place sets the stage for car insurance companies to start requiring monitoring in all vehicles, and using it against customers trying to file claims. ("We're sorry, but an analysis of your car's computer shows us you didn't take the steps a safe driver would have taken to avoid this accident, so we're not compensating you for this claim!")

Also, in all the time I've been driving, I don't think I've *ever* witnessed some "nitwit sharing the road with me, while driving 200Mph". Sure, I've seen cars fly past me in the fast lane doing maybe 100 or 110Mph (and a couple times, seen them pulled over on the side of the road by a cop shortly thereafter!), but again - your scenario just doesn't really happen.

What *may* happen is someone doing performance tuning to a performance car needs to see if the tuning accomplished their goals or not, so they go out on a deserted stretch of road at 3AM and test it out. That has a measure of risk, too, but nothing like driving 200Mph in traffic. I don't think someone doing these deserves to have their car seized and license revoked permanently. By picking the most deserted road possible at a time least likely to have someone driving there - they're showing they took steps to make what they're doing as safe as possible.

There's a very simple explanation for that

[Anonymous Coward]

States, unlike the federal government, are required to have balanced budgets. Nearly all states have that provision in their constitutions.

Real Top Speed

[coolmacdude]

Wouldn't it still have to be governed at 155 mph? That has been the rule for all imports for a little while now.

Re:Too right. Speed saves lives for bikers

[chimpo13]

There are airbags for motorcycles. Try googling on it.

I've been run off the road on purpose by guys in SUVs. Dang kids these days...

One day I'll have to sell my motorcycles and upgrade to Kaneda's bike from Akira.

Your MS Tax Dollars at Work

[Mooncaller]

or MS Innovations or ... Why go on, at 500+ posts, no one will ever read it. I would'nt.

Re:Your MS Tax Dollars at Work

[Teun]

They might not read it. But they'll surely mod it!

[not so] smart driver.

[momus_radar]

I've also taken my supra to 167 MPH on Interstate 84. I didn't kill anyone. Not even close, because I am a smart driver.

Not to sound confrontational but if you're as smart a driver as you claim then you would that know your comment is very foolish. There are innumerable factors, that no driver has control over, that can (and usualy will) effect the operation of an automobile at any speed. Everything from changing road conditions to flaws within the vehicle can cause problems.

Humans are foulable and by extension everything we think, do and create is subject to error.

Re:[not so] smart driver.

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans are foulable

rofl. It took me a couple of seconds to figure what 'foulable' meant. lol. Thanks, m.r., that was great.

Re:[not so] smart driver.

[digitalunity]

I've done this once, and I'll never do it again. But...

It was organized. I had one tail about a half mile behind me for part of the journey and one lead who left several minutes before me. We had radios to keep in constant communication. The lead informed me of road and weather conditions, presence of police or other cars, slick spots, pot holes, and gravel. This was also on a route on I84 that I had driven several dozen times so I knew every turn. I didn't attempt any turns at 167, I slowed to about 110 for the corners. I did end up getting a ticket despite having a lead car. I was paced by air patrol at 130+, according to the state patrol officer that pulled me over. The lead car didn't spot the patrol car because they were hidden behind a sign on an off-ramp. I was gunned at 93 and got a fat ticket. He complemented me on my car, said I was a good driver, and insulted my judgement to try this on this particular interstate. He did mention that typically, people that do this go into southern Oregon where there are many infrequently patrolled and straight highways. At the same time, he also mentioned that if he'd gunned me at 100+, the wreckless driving would have been automatic and he would have taken my car and possibly my license. As it turned out, I got nothing more than a excess speed ticket and the loss of two points off my license. This was all done in my Supra, with brand new, balanced Y speed rated tires which are positively the weakest link in any road car at this speed.

Was it dangerous? Hell yes, but not necessarily more dangerous than any sanctioned road race and far, far safer than the stupid street racers I'm surounded by in my home town. If you don't believe me, check out sanctioned races like the Silver State Classic in Nevada. That particular race is organized every year with the permission of and help from Nevada State Patrol.

You are correct that there are always factors not under the driver's control and that is a risk. It was minimized in every way possible and it turned out ok. For some, it doesn't and they crash and burn. When I made the decision to try this, I decided at the same time that the only person I was willing to endanger was myself. I was actually in a safer position than the lead car who limited their speed to just over 100 MPH. This person had also driven this section of the freeway many times, but this didn't negate much of the danger of driving that fast.

All I can say now is, it was fun once. Never again.

Re:[not so] smart driver.

[Anonymous Coward]

"wreckless" does not mean the same thing as "reckless"

yeah, and intel and AMD people suck cock

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! PowerPC rocks!

Just making a point about snobs and purists

Whats wrong witha kW

[Nf1nk]

As an engineering major I would love it if cars came prerated with their engines in kW.
We can't rate cars in kW becausee in this country (USA) kW has a strong electrical connotation.
If I told you that my Jeep out puts 75kW (about 100hp) most would assume I have an electric jeep. I don't, but it would take too long to educate all of the morons on what the meanings of units are.
Oh and I wish we could use the metric system for everything else too.

Microsoft vs. The Real World

[KurdtX]

Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

Funny how Bill only suggests doing the right thing by certifying the car through NTSA crash-testing (despite how much extra it'd cost) when it's something that he'll actually be using. I guess it only makes him more of a prick because he's intellgent enough to know the right way to do something, but chooses not to so he can buy nicer toys.

UK knows speed? Princess Diana's death?

[ScorpiusFan]

You would have to admit the element of speed helped contribute to Princess Di's death. If she was in a car that had a regulated speed chances are she would still be alive. On the note of motorcycle safety, all of the UK statistics I have seen show motorcycle fatalities from accidents increasing. Here's a report from Bristol City from 2001 that shows this: http://www.bristol-city.gov.uk/traffic/pdf/tt_pol_ safety_casualtyrep.pdf Just do a google search and you will find plenty of statistical arguments that show that motorcyclists have a more difficult time surviving accidents than those in cars. And if motorcycles make it easier for one to avoid an accident, then why have the accident rates been increasing?

Re:UK knows speed? Princess Diana's death?

[Anonymous Coward]

could this have ot do with higher amounts of large vehicles on the road? People in SUVS who simply dont look...?

Ive been almost run over in my miata enough to know to not drive near SUVs.

Re:UK knows speed? Princess Diana's death?

[Goth Biker Babe]

You would have to admit the element of speed helped contribute to Princess Di's death.

That and driving in to a concrete pillar. That tunnel doesn't have crash barriers down the middle. But again it's inappropriate speed. They were going too fast for the road conditions. You wouldn't do 60mph through a housing estate would you?

And if motorcycles make it easier for one to avoid an accident, then why have the accident rates been increasing?

Because again it's relative. Biking has become popular and there are more bikers and scooterists on the road. There are more of them and so more accidents and more fatalities. As a percentage of riders I don't know whether it's an increase or not. One of the biggest factors in the accident rate at the moment is born agains or mid life crisis bikers. Usually middle aged men who have returned to biking afterf a long long break or just got their licence. Either way they can afford machines which are just too powerful for them. Experienced and sensible bikers know better.

Re:UK knows speed? Princess Diana's death?

[mabhatter654]

That was the French anyway....

Re:UK knows speed? Princess Diana's death?

[cujo_1111]

You would have to admit the element of speed helped contribute to Princess Di's death. If she was in a car that had a regulated speed chances are she would still be alive.

If she had been wearing a seatbelt then she may have survived like the guy in the front seat instead of being turned into a pancake from the sudden stop. Stupid woman.

Re:Too right. Speed saves lives for bikers

[Anonymous Coward]

Works the same way in cars. Ive seen plenty of accidents where if the person had just pushed the gas instead of panicking and breaking in the middle of an intersection, nothing would have happened. I drive a fast car that handles well. I accelerate out of situations more than I break.

Often thats because accelerating is the only way to get to a point where that idiot cant hit you....

Bill Gates *does* Read /. !

[dbretton]

At least for inspiration.

here's the proof

momus_radar the Iconoclast

[momus_radar]

I don't know why. It's a perfectly cromulent word.

Re:momus_radar the Iconoclast

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the word you're looking for is "fallible".

Will these models run XP?

[bl8n8r]

Anyone care to Blue-Screen at 215 MPH? They will most likely need beta-testers.

Re:This is how America works, and why it's an outr

[drewness]

I remember reading about this long ago, and Porsche had already done the European crash and emissions tests, which were more stringent than the US ones, and they didn't want to waste more cars to reconfirm what was already known just to satisfy some American beaurocrats.

bah, give me an armoured vehicle instead

[Anonymous Coward]

fast cars are like attractive women that cant screw. personally I want a vehicle that is tough and dependable and if hit by some hot rodder (in a Porsche no doubt) I just have to scrape off the paint and body fluids and my vehicle is good as new. Optionally this vehicle would come with the twin mounted 50 caliber allowing for "punishment" of those that pass on the right shoulder endangering all (saw another fatality from that recently).

Re:This is how America works, and why it's an outr

[DWIM]

So if you're rich you can ignore the law that everyone else has to live by, I don't see that as an improvement or even necessary in this case.

That wouldn't be true -- the law would specify that if you don't comply with a standard, you have to pay a fee. The fee could be pretty high. In this case, a couple of folks driving a 959 around are not going to make an iota of difference to the local levels of pollution.

WINDOWS CRASH TEST

[elmo62]

Why dont they purchase there crappy software and crash test it to make it safe and in working order? Version of windows surely is cheaper then that car, but I guess if you like tourchering millions go ahead, just this time.

Let's hope

[Anonymous Coward]

He crashes and burns in the thing. Imagine a beowulf sluster of thest things!

Jebus...

[White Roses]

All I want is a smart roadster. It's got EU4 emissions, so it *should* be legal here (it can't possibly be worse than an Excursion), and gets well better than 40 mpg (over 50 in some cases). It's not going to go 215mph like these 959s, but when, exactly, are those 959s going to be driven anywhere near that fast? Really. I want to know. So I can lay down some caltraps or something.

Anyway, not bloody likely I'll ever see one here. Unless I buy one in Mexico and bring it home.

do I need a cd key?

[Nick Vukovich]

so if i wanted to bring my Porsche 959 out on the road, would i have to pay a license fee?

I can see it now...
"this car will run for 10 more miles before you will be required to activate it"

Speed increase to save lives

[SysKoll]

Nope, it wasn't France. In France, they are going to increase the highway speed limit from 130 to 150 km/h (95 mph) in a general push to decrease road fatalities.

Unfortunately, it's very hard to measure success in that respect because the French gummint also changed the way they count road fatalities. They claim they decreased road fatalities by 25% in two short years, but they also changed the period during which a death after an accident is credited to that accident.

In clear English: Before the change, if you died within a month of a car crash, they incremented the road fatality counter. Now they wait only 2 weeks. Naturally, a percentage of the car-crash-induced deaths are now slipping outside the count window. Mission accomplished.

That's called statistical remedies, and that's a favorite among politicians.

The Germans think that what kills you is fatigue and that the sooner you're there, the less time you're on the road and hence the less time you are exposed to danger. Hence there is no speed limit on their highway (or if there is, it's very high). Then again, when they see a driver passing on the right, they put his license in a shredder.

Re:Racing down 520? HAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

No prob, I do 100+ on 520 all the time past MS. It's only the bridge that sucks.. and the bridge ALWAYS sucks. Yes, 405 is a parking lot any time of day.

The I-90 floating bridge rocks, there should be no speed limit. I mean, hell, concrete walls on both sides, it's like a goddamned racetrack. The express lanes should be legal for drag racing, because all that would happen if someone loses it is they take themselves out -- no houses or innocent civilians to hit! Worst case scenario someone bounces off a wall really hard, or (god forbid!) fly off into the water. So what? No harm no foul to anyone but the driver. 'Course, this coming from a guy who got tagged doing 120 in the I-90 express lanes.. oops!

Re: no laws "bought" here

[mabhatter654]

It's the american way of keeping the "supercars" out. The domestic automakers can afford to build and destroy dozens of new prototype cars to pass all the federal and state saftey rules. Ask a company that builds hand-built botique sports cars to wipe out an entire YEARS production just to sell in the US...I didn't think so, that would be a travisty.

Unless your Bill Gates with enough $$$$ to do your pals a favor and buy up enough cars to wreck! Then the feds spare the cars because it just ain't right to do that to art!

Also, this doesn't just apply to sports cars. Many other common foreign cars can't get in either. VW beetles are the most common. They were still in production in South America right up until the late 90's. But again, you couldn't import new ones unless you had cash to crash um. It's both a legitimate saftey rule and a nod to the Domestic giants to keep smaller automakers out.

nice try

[gumbi west]

You have some good a priori ideas. However, a posteriori most of them are wrong. If you look at fatality data from the U.S. (as a DOE report I can't now locate did) You find that sports cars are significantly more dangerous than other cars. Similarly, motorcycles are the most dangerous vehicles.

Re: speed differentials killing

[wideBlueSkies]

>>From strictly a standpoint of increased safety, sure - it might help a little bit. But there's much more to it than that. For one thing, the people spending the money needed to own one of these cars in the first place aren't generally the "average" or even "inexperienced" driver. They're more likely to fit the profile of a wealthy individual who buys the car for "show" and "bragging rights", while not really having much time or inclination to drive around at reckless speeds on public roads.

Seems to me that you're describing a 2 classed system here. So the rich guy should be able to get away with driving over the speed limit, but the average Joe-Schmo can't.

Rich guys aren't above the law. Their blood is the same color as mine and they breathe the same air. They should be observing the same laws that I do. End of story.

wbs.

MS finally did something good!!!

[laydros]

Wait, wait!!! This is the first time in recent memory that MS has done ANYTHING that i was happy to hear. hip-hip-horray!!!!

It used to exist. It was a real race

[The Tyro]

There was an underground version of the Cannonball run for a few years... not sure what ever became of it. It was set up by Car-and-Driver's Brock Yates as a speed limit protest event (for you old enough to remember the 55mph debacle).

These guys would drive cross-country, carry a bunch of cash (in case they did get pulled over and nailed with a hefty ticket), and it was all for fun and protest.

One of my relatives was an auto broker for years and years... hooked a guy up with a vehicle (Porsche, Lambo, something like that) he was planning on using for this very event. It was the only time I ever heard anyone mention it outside the context of the movie.

Mr. Yates wrote a book about it... and it can be found right here.

to make the original article understandable...

[more]

575 hp, that is 429 kW.

215 MPH, that is 345 km/h, or 96 m/s.

60 MPH, that is 97 km/h, or 26 m/s.

I am a dedicated hater of the national type system, and all the people who believe its good for them live in a lie. I will never buy a product if its specifications are described using a national type system.

I was a neighbor of Bruce Canepa

[ChozCunningham]

As a matter of fact, I was a tenant in a leased house across from his main workspace. After 10 months of requesting repairs, we put our payments in an escrowe account, and demanded that he bring the house up to state mandated habitablity standards. A year later, we were in small-claims court with him. Later, he threatened my then-Fiance saying he could sue her for more that she'd ever make in her life.

The suit she had against him was for the $850.00 deposit he refused to return, claiming it as payment for the withheld rent money wich we had documented as spent on vital repairs.

During my stay at that house, I met a lady who had lived there 6 years preaviously. She asked me if the kitchen window was still broken and if the paint in the bathroom was still "peeling pink". They weren't by the time we left, and the stairs weren't collapsing if you walked on them, but it wasn't any thanks to the landlord.

Nice to see this guy can at least crawl up Billy's butt, because nobody in Santa Cruz county can stand him, including his family.

And with laws made for people like him, why do the rest of us Americans vote?

that proves nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't surprising at all. All it proves is that Bill Gates is a bad engineer.

Bipartisanism sucks.

[forkboy]

And with laws made for people like him, why do the rest of us Americans vote?

If that kind of shit aggravates you, maybe you should be voting Green Party in any elections you participate in. Consumer rights are a top priority of theirs. They took a significant chunk of the last presidential election, more than a 3rd party has done in quite a while. They are starting to win local elections across the country. If more people stop thinking of them as a wasted vote, you'll see some changes coming round these parts real quick.

Bipartisanism sucks.

Oh, Okay.

[momus_radar]

As long as you were having fun. Good God man! What were you thinking? What if Bigfoot was crossing the road while you were driving? Did you minimize that factor?

You are inerrant.

[momus_radar]

Yup, you're right. That's okay though, I'm man enough to admit I made a mistake.

Re: no, you miss my point

[King_TJ]

I never said the laws would be changed for how speeding and wreckless driving is punished, depending on the type of car driven, or income level of the driver!

My point was merely that the original post is trying to build a case for more restrictive legislation (a la "big brother" chips inside the cars logging the speeds driven). In reality though, the scenarios given aren't very realistic.

it's just not a common occurance that some teenager takes his new Porsche 959 out for a spin at 200Mph on the freeway during rush hour.

The financial barrier to entry on these top-performance cars tends to weed out the types of drivers who would be prone to doing those things. Reality is, most of these cars are being bought by people who collect them. It's ridiculous to go through all the effort to obtain a rare car like that, only to risk totalling it on the interstate for a 2 minute thrill.

Cut the semantics.

[momus_radar]

Now you're just being a loser.

Re:Too right. Speed saves lives for bikers

[Inthewire]

I ride. I also read your posts with great interest.