The Self-Tuning Guitar

CowboyRobot writes "With the TransPerformance Performer you push a button to activate a mechanical re-tensioning of the strings to any of a few hundred tunings, 'accurate to within 2 cents over the entire tuning range', in a couple of seconds. They can even refit your existing guitar. There's a long audio interview with Jimmy Page on the site. It's funny to hear him speak."

Comments

Even more fabulous

[jaf]

It's being done with pianos:
See this New Scientist article

Re:Even more fabulous

[MyFourthAccount]

Interesting read. I liked this quote:

"From a pragmatic point of view I think it's an absolutely appalling idea. It would put me out of a job," says Martin Surrey, who tunes pianos for the English National Opera company.

No shit, Sherlock.

Welcome to the world of automation. The other 99.9999% of the population has had their work been influenced by it for a couple of decades now.

Re:Even more fabulous

[micromoog]

This isn't just for correcting tuning. The real boon for guitarists is not the ability to correct tuning quickly (that's actually really easy), but to change to alternate tunings quickly. There are many alternate tunings that take advantage of resonance between different open strings for very interesting sounds, but are not suitable for general-purpose use like the "standard" tuning because the intervals are too awkward.

Alternate tunings are not very widely used today, mainly because it's such a pain in the ass to retune a whole guitar. Some company back in the 80s made a guitar bridge where you could flip switches at the base of each string to change its tuning . . . I think it worked fairly well, but was not widely used. There's also a tuning key that just drops the low E down to D with the flip of a switch . . . that one got used a fair bit.

Re:Even more fabulous

[fruey]

What's amazing about the piano, is that electric current is used to warm the strings in order to get them into tune. The guitar tunes itself mechanically, but the piano is tuned electrically (not electronically, although there are electronics to determine the pitch of the strings).

The self tuning guitar is really for people who play alternate tunings, like open D, open G, that sort of thing. Regular guitar tuning is easy enough to maintain with a good ear, but automatically tuning to some nice open tuning could give the guitar more tonal and harmonic depth onstage in a live situation, without having to pick up a separate guitar... this is what it's all about.

It would have suited Jimi Hendrix too. He couldn't seem to keep his guitar in tune. If he wasn't up the fretboard (where he'd sort of compensate) but playing open notes it would sound awful.

Re:Even more fabulous

[TheGrayArea]

The D-Tuner is the greatest thing. Makes life a lot easier when you're on stage and in a hurry.
The tuning device is really cool as well.
Of course if I had a nickle for every punk kid that can't tune his guitar without an electronic tuner ...

Re:Even more fabulous

[Golias]

Give that man a cigar!

Alternate tunings is exactly why this is huge for guitarists.

I would never put a device like this on my piano, because manual tuning only needs to be done twice a year, and any professioinal piano tuner worth his wage is also going to check all the pads and maintain the action of the keys for me.

But when I play guitar with my garage band, I mostly play in standard tuning, but switch to open-G for a lot of slide-blues songs. Currently, I do this by having two guitars, so an autotuner that can quickly switch like this is easilly worth the price of a second guitar to somebody like me.

Re:Even more fabulous

[srmalloy]

What's amazing about the piano, is that electric current is used to warm the strings in order to get them into tune. The guitar tunes itself mechanically, but the piano is tuned electrically (not electronically, although there are electronics to determine the pitch of the strings).

The problem I see with the 'electric piano' is that the tuning mechanism is dumping heat into the body of the piano as waste heat from the heating of the strings. With half a kilowatt of energy being dissipated in the body, that's going to change the acoustics of the body of the piano, changing the way the whole piano sounds.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Wargames]

I think for most people having your grand drawing 500-600 Watts 24/7 is going to cost more than the $75 two times a year to keep it professionally tuned. Not to mention the cost of retrofitting this system. (Based on 7 cents / kilo Watt hour a typical rate:) N

500 watts x 24 hours/day x 30.5 days/month = 366,000 Total Watts
366,000 Total Watts / 1000 watts = 366 kilowatts
366 kWh x 7/kWh = $25.62/month; $307/year .

Re:Even more fabulous

[milo_Gwalthny]

Good post... except for the 'not widely used' part. Drop D tuning is pretty common in songs by the Rolling Stones, Guns 'N Roses, Nirvana, etc.

Always a pain in the neck to switch, especially for those of us who are lazy and use electronic tuning aids.

Re:Even more fabulous

[gowen]

Drop D tuning is pretty common in songs by the Rolling Stones

Nah. When Keef uses alternate tunings its usually open-G or open-D (both of which he learnt from Ry Cooder).

I'm listening to "Salt Of The Earth", right now.

Re:Even more fabulous

[the_rev_matt]

Not entirely accurate. Almost every "alternative" band in the past 5 years has made heavy use of alternative tunings. Korn, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Barenaked Ladies, Goo Goo Dolls, and the Wallflowers, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Re:Even more fabulous

[essiescreet]

Well, cam tuners have been around for banjos for awhile. You set 2 stops, and voila! Listen to some Earl Scruggs (Earl's breakdown, Flint Hill Special, Randy Lynn Rag, and more) and you'll hear them used during a song for the effect.

This is sort of like the bridge, and they can also allow you to quickly retune from the Open-G to Open-D tuning.

Bill Keith (http://www.beaconbanjo.com) makes some, and I have a set on my banjo and they're awsome!

Re:Even more fabulous

[Cleon]

Yeah, BUT Scruggs tuners tend to wear down after a while and you have to have them re-geared or replaced.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Anonymous Coward]

Most cheap guitars have horrible intonation, even when you get them calibrated as well as possible.

Electronic tuners become a necessity when your 5th fret is not actually in the right position :)

But, one might argue, just buy yourself a better guitar, dammit...

Re:Even more fabulous

[trixillion]

I would agree except for that 24hours/day part. Who plays the piano that much? Now if you were at the piano 8 hours a day 7 days a week (or 56 hours per week), then this would only cost ~$100/year - less than the $150/year for twice a year professional tuning.

Re:Even more fabulous

[cmstremi]

The switch was called a "drop-out" and they worked really well for bass guitars. Adrian Legg uses these gadgets a lot in his playing and achieves some amazing sounds by adjusting the tunings quickly as he plays.

I disagree about the alternate tunings, though. Lots of current rock bands have abandoned standard tuning (eadgbe). Many simply use drop-D tuning, and others tune a half or whole step down all the way across. All for the effect of a fat low-end that makes the kiddies scream.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Slamtilt]

Yeah, but it looks like it's only for electrics. Which makes sense, you don't want to be sticking more crap than you have to on an acoustic's soundboard, but it would be nice to have such a thing since it's my acoustic that spends most of its time in alternative tunings. Perhaps down the road they could manage a headstock mounted thing, but it would need to be tiny and light.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Anonymous Coward]

Helmet exclusively used dropped-D tuning...
Soundgarden and Sonic Youth used a lot of alternate tunings too; can't do many of them with a Floyd-Rose (or any other sort of trem, except a Wilkinson) so you wiggle-stick wangers are out of luck. :)

Re:Even more fabulous

[po8]

For a guitar with only 6 pegs (vs a piano, with 3*88) the mechanism for actually turning the pegs is lily-gilding. I would guess that any competent /.er should be able to build a nice GUI on top of an FFT so that they can manually tune their guitar to an alternate tuning in seconds by looking at the screen of their laptop.

Re:Even more fabulous

[errxn]

Not only did Sonic Youth experiment with alternate tunings, they would also stick things like screwdrivers in the strings and play out of tune on purpose sometimes. They were one of a handful of bands from that genre that could actually make the noise and dissonance they created work. Interesting stuff.

Re:Even more fabulous

[H8X55]

any alternative rock guitarist worth his salt can drop the low E to D w/ out a tuner or device in a few secs. i can do mine in less time than it would take me to flip a switch. Not to be troll, but we were doing this in the early ninties to play Soundgarden, Nirvana, Alice in Chains, etc. I know on my fender strat is just over a 1/4 turn of the tuning knob.

tuning a whole guitar is a lot more challenging live, which is why so many people switch guitars between songs that would require an alternate tuning. but dropping one string from E to D is cake.

Re:Even more fabulous

[UncleGizmo]

Actually, alternate tunings are used a lot today, especially for the heavier "nu-metal" bands. Many are tuned to open C or open D tunings. Plus, some use 7-string [as opposed to 6-string] guitars. Using this tuner could emulate some of those lower tones on the same guitar as your standard tuning.

Would love to see this on an acoustic. Bron-y-Aur, anyone??

Re:Even more fabulous

[UncleGizmo]

[pedantic comment ahead]

The reason Jimi couldn't stay in tune had more to do with his use of the tremelo bar [the metal arm attached to the bridge that can be lifted/pushed up/down to change the pitch]. Excessive use of the arm [as Jimi was famous for] changes tension on the strings at the string winders and nut [the 'head' of the guitar], putting things horribly out of tune. Many of today's guitars compensate for that by adding a lock on the headstock nut. That's why Eddie van Halen never seems to be too out of tune playing live. Newer technology!

Re:Even more fabulous

[essiescreet]

Er, actally, according to most banjo-l posts, you have 2 things wrong:

1. They're Keith tuners, Bill and Earl had it out for unknown reasons, and Earl does not have his name on them anymore.

2. With a little bit of regular oiling, they will last more than a lifetime (and Bill will fix them gratis if they do need repacking or anything)

You may be thinking of the Schallers, which suck anyway...

Re:Even more fabulous

[Pyrrus]

It's not as useful on a piano because: A) pianos only
have one tuning (since they have a key for every note), guitars
have only 6 strings and so sometimes it is useful to have them tuned
differently.
B) piano's hold their tuning for a long time. When you do
a lot of bends on a guitar (bending the string to make the pitch of a
particular note higher) the tuning goes flat, which also happens
if you just play really loud with a pick (hitting the strings harder).

Re:Even more fabulous

[black mariah]

Heavy trem arm abuse on a Strat with a vintage trem is not condusive to good tuning.

Re:Even more fabulous

[sootman]

"...when I play guitar with my garage band, I mostly play in standard tuning, but switch to open-G for a lot of slide-blues songs. Currently, I do this by having two guitars, so an autotuner that can quickly switch like this is easilly worth the price of a second guitar to somebody like me."

Cool! So it's like... dual-booting your guitar! :-)

Re:Even more fabulous

[The Evil Couch]

I don't know a lot about strings, being a brass guy, but it sounds like if this could be adapted to harps, it'd make my girlfriend pretty happy. Anyone know anything anyone doing something like that?

Re:Even more fabulous

[Anonymous Coward]

Pianos don't always have one tuning. I mean, I like it when my piano is at A440Hz and equal temperament, but others sometimes like it a different way.

Re:Even more fabulous

[timeOday]

I was pretty excited with this genius idea until I read the "500-600 watts" part. Ouch! I wonder if he could use a different alloy, or insulate the strings, or something else to make the power consumption reasonable without changing the sound? Maybe they could make an easy way for the consumer to manually tune the piano so it's just a little bit sharp, so only small corrections would be necessary. Maybe an LED by each string could blink if the note is too low at room temp? I dunno.

I would really like this idea to work. There are a lot of un-tuned pianos out there!

Re:Even more fabulous

[hchaos]

This isn't just for correcting tuning. The real boon for guitarists is not the ability to correct tuning quickly (that's actually really easy), but to change to alternate tunings quickly. There are many alternate tunings that take advantage of resonance between different open strings for very interesting sounds, but are not suitable for general-purpose use like the "standard" tuning because the intervals are too awkward.

Unfortunately, properly changing a guitar to an alternate tuning isn't as simple as re-tuning the strings, the truss rod also needs to be adjusted, to counter the change in overall string tension (which is considerable when adjusting the lower 3 strings), and a truss rod adjustment requires about 12 hours of settling time. The guitar will still play, but it won't sound so good.

Of course, buying a different guitar for each tuning quickly become cost-prohibitive, so this is a great compromise for those guitarists who like to use multiple tunings and who don't have lucrative contracts with major record labels.

Re:Even more fabulous

[drix]

Exactly. Anybody can learn to tune a guitar in 5 minutes if you can pick out one of (E,A,D,G,B). Alternative tunings definitely open up a whole new world in terms of emotion and sound to good guitar players, especially acoustic. But most players are discouraged from it because a) it's a pain in the ass, b) you can't really play a gig in 7 different tunings unless you have a guitar tech, and c) it kills your strings. At least a) and b) have been solved.

(If you want an example of the beauty that can result when someone bites the bullet and experiments with alternative tunings, I can think of no better example than Nick Drake. I don't think it's a coincidence that he is said to have sucked live. ;)

Re:Even more fabulous

[micromoog]

Except that after you go though all the strings once, the new tension has knocked the first few out of tune again, so you go through all of them again . . . and again . . . and again.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, grammer / spell checkers are still needed...

Re:Even more fabulous

[x-caiver]

A blind man walked in to my house and gave my piano the best tuning it had ever had. (no, there is no joke/punchline coming)
His daughter drove up, helped him out of the car, and walked him to my piano. He asked that I remove any papers / loose items from it, and then he sat down on the bench. He ran his hands along the piano getting a feel for the dimensions and layout of the various parts (the music stand, the key cover, decorative touches, etc) and then asked who made the piano. Then he opened the lid and popped out the panels that were in the way, the only assistance he received during this "dismantling" phase was when he would hand a piece to his daughter who then went and found a free spot on the floor to put them. The blind man, now sitting in front of an exposed piano, asked for his tool box to be set on the seat next to him. He did not ask for a specific tool, he did not ask for his tools to be laid out in any way, just wanted his box next to him.
He played some scales & chords to see where he would be starting from, and asked me if I had any tuning style requests. I told him I liked to play blues, but did play a lot of classical. He nodded his head, grabbed his tuning wrench and a couple of tuning forks and went at it.
It was really cool to watch, you could tell that this guy loved what he was doing and was an expert at it. He would pick up a fork, feeling them to determine which one he had, then he would whack it on the hard heel of his shoe. The sound would resonate and he would start wrenching away, deftly moving all over the keys. He would tune a series of keys, then he would jump a few octaves away tweaking & retweaking. He didn't just tune every single note to match up with a seperate perfect fork, he made subtle changes to give the sound life. He would stop and comment on why he was making changes every now and then, and run through some more scales and chords.
Eventually he stopped and put the panels back on the piano. His daughter walked him in to our living room, and he announced she would make us some tea. (??) She boiled some water, dunked some bags, and we sat there while he made small talk and told some random stories (including the one about knowing a guy who almost lost several fingers when he overtightened one of the very very thin piano wires until it violently snapped). a little bit of this he wanted back at the piano. Along with the scales & chords, this time he played a quick song. He opened it all up again, spent a minute or two making some final adjustments, and was done. The time we were talking he was apparently waiting for all the changes he made to "settle in" in case any of the bolts were a little loose or for the strings to do any expansion they wanted to.
The time that he spent on my piano was well worth it, it was deliberately not a frequency-perfect tuning. It was, however, a perfect sounding piano. He had done some minor detuning on some keys, it had character, it sounded awesome.

Re:Even more fabulous

[daveinthesky]

There's also a tuning key that just drops the low E down to D with the flip of a switch . . . that one got used a fair bit.

My buddy actually has one of these on his Fender jazz bass. A really nice bass, in fact, and the tuning switch just makes it killer. If this new system can beat that, I'm sure there'll be legions of axe-handlers ready to get choppin

....

Re:Even more fabulous

[David M. Sweeney]

There's also a tuning key that just drops the low E down to D with the flip of a switch . . . that one got used a fair bit.

Michael Manring has done some amazing solo bass guitar pieces that feature on-the-fly retuning for melodic effect, particularly on "The Enormous Room" and "Music for Armchair Funambulists" (signup to email list required). Mr. Manring's been pusing the boundaries of solo bass for a while, and is worth a listen if you're into that sort of experimentation. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him with a similar setup at some point in the future.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Bush Pig]

Buying a seperate guitar for each tuning could be expensive, but having one of these contraptions fitted to your guitar isn't exactly cheap (the manufacturer's website mentions a price of about $4K). You could buy a couple of new Strats for that.

Re:Even more fabulous

[melorama]

Good post... except for the 'not widely used' part. Drop D tuning is pretty common in songs by the Rolling Stones, Guns 'N Roses, Nirvana, etc. Always a pain in the neck to switch, especially for those of us who are lazy and use electronic tuning aids.

Not to sound like a snob (of course, a disclaimer like this probably means i am a snob :P), but switching to drop-D takes no more than 5 seconds if you know how to tune a guitar and can hear relative pitch.

It's not difficult at all to drop the low-E to a D by matching (an octave down, of course) to the open-D string...and dropping the high-E (if you play true drop-D tuning) is as simple as matching it to the 3rd fret of the B-string.

Not really a pain in the ass at all. You really should free yourself of the chains of using electronic tuners. They're great in the recording studio, but when playing on stage, being in tune with the rest of the band at any given moment is more important.

Re:Even more fabulous

[melorama]

Not entirely accurate. Almost every "alternative" band in the past 5 years has made heavy use of alternative tunings. Korn, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Barenaked Ladies, Goo Goo Dolls, and the Wallflowers, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Thank you for using the word "alternative" in quotation marks, especially in the context of the bands you mentioned.

I wouldn't call what lame nu-metal acts (like Linkin Park, Korn, Limp Bizkit, etc) use as "alternate tunings". This totally weak and shallow genre is almost totally based on drop-D tuning (not what i would consider a true "alternate tuning"...although im well aware that Korn uses some non-standard tunings...still doesnt change the fact that they absolutely suck), where you can get admittedly cool sounding riffs simply by rolling your finger up and down the low E and A strings. Bo-ring.

It's totally cliched to mention Sonic Youth when talking about alternate guitar tunings, but it's for a good reason. Just listen to "Daydream Nation" or "Sister" (for starters), and you will hear excellent examples of alternate tuning in action. These albums simply do not sound anything like "normal" guitar based albums, primarily because of their use of true alternate tunings. And they aren't just tuning a string up/down here or there, they actually do things like stringing with unison string gauges, which gives you sounds that simply cant be achieved by tuning a standard string set to a different tuning.

The only problem with Sonic Youth, of course, is that for every brilliant song they write, there's 10 utterly worthless tunes that surround it.

And If bands like BNL and Goo Goo Dolls use alternate tunings, I'll be damned if it makes any difference to thier music. I just dont hear it...then again, I'll also be damned if i actually go out and buy a BNL or Goo Goo Dolls record, so I am open to being proven wrong on this point.

Re:Even more fabulous

[melorama]

Bron-y-Aur, anyone??

Bron-Yr-Aur...an absolutely beautiful guitar tuning! A friend of mine, who didnt know that Jimmy Page used an alternate tuning on that song, taught himself how to play it in STANDARD tuning! He picked up my guitar one day, and started playing it...totally freaked me out, and said "how the hell did you re-tune my guitar so quickly!?!?!?"

Another beautiful tuning that Page used a lot is DADGAD (heard on "Black Mountain Side" and a myriad of other folk songs). It's my absolute favorite alt. tuning.

Re:Even more fabulous

[melorama]

Of course, buying a different guitar for each tuning quickly become cost-prohibitive, so this is a great compromise for those guitarists who like to use multiple tunings and who don't have lucrative contracts with major record labels.

Sonic Youth was traveling with a literal quiver of guitars tuned to different tunings MANY years before they got signed to Geffen, and were just a highly-obscure "art rock" band.

Of course, many of thier guitars were pawn-shop cheapies, but it really doesn't seem to matter in the quality of thier end product, because the amazing sounds they got from these tunings always superseded traditional notions of what a "good" guitar is supposed to sound like.

Re:Even more fabulous

[Anonymous Coward]

Naw, just get some sandpaper and a screwdriver, and usually you're all good... Unless your frets aren't actually in the right place, and then it's just a piece of junk.. even $150-200 can get a decent enough electric guitar.

Re:Even more fabulous

[UltimateZer0]

Unfortunately, grammer / spell checkers are still needed...

Grammar!! The irony of /. never ceases to amaze the shit out of me!

Re:Even more fabulous

[UncleGizmo]

I'm also a big fan of DGDGBD. Fun tuning to goof off with!

I for one....

[CompWerks]

Welcome our Self-tuning guitar overlords.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Re:I for one....

[brennan73]

I need to create a user for using the "I for one welcome our xxxxxx overlords" on every story. Apparently I'd have so much karma that I'd be able to buy /. with it.

I can't wait...

[bc90021]

...for when cars become self-tuning too. ;)

Re:I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would much prefer the DRIVERS become self tuning. And I'm talking about both the meat and the software kind.

Re:I can't wait...

[millahtime]

"I would much prefer the DRIVERS become self tuning. And I'm talking about both the meat and the software kind."

Someone gonna hop on that patent?

Re:I can't wait...

[hph]

But they are..

Check it out: ATI Overdrive

Re:I can't wait...

[dave420-2]

Nearly as good is the tech support on Nissan Skylines... connect your phone to the car, call Nissan in Japan, and they'll take the timings from your engine, and re-send new ones direct to the chip in the engine. 10 minutes, and you're done!

Re:I can't wait...

[dasmegabyte]

Uh, cars are self tuning now.

"Tuning" on a car, as in a "tune up," refers to the adjustment of the fuel and ignition systems to provide maximum efficiency. On mechanical cars, this meant adjusting the carburetor, adjusting the timing, adjusting the ignition points and condensor, etc.

All of these parts are computer controlled, and have been since fuel injection became popular around, well, some time between 1980 and 1990. It's even more efficient that way. And the computer is auto-adjusting -- it senses microscopic knocks and adjusts the mix on the fly. When a computer part fails, it fails obviously, unlike the gradual loss of power you face with a carburetor. I had my Ignition Control Module go on me two weeks ago and it was OBVIOUS...one cylinder just stopped firing (ouch).

So yeah, cars are self tuning. In fact, anybody in the past 10 years who's sold you a "tune up" either did nothing at all to your car, or checked a lot of other things that had nothing to do with what we called a "tune up" before the 80s.

Re:I can't wait...

[gvc]

Cars are self-tuning.

You may occasionally have to replace worn-out parts like ignition wires and plugs, but there are no "tune-up" adjustments to be made. Similarly, I'm sure self-tuning in guitars doesn't obviate string replacement.

Re:I can't wait...

[dasmegabyte]

doesn't obviate string replacement.

Word? I've had guitars whose bridges were designed such that, after a certain amount of wear on the second string, you just couldn't tune it any more. It would always be flat or sharp. Drove me up the wall, I'd end a passage on a ringing string and it would sound sour.

My new guitar has that tendency. It's very sensitive to string wear, and the sound starts to give out even before the strings darken. So what I've done is create a sort of string "hand me down" program. I buy my Martin SP Bronzes, play them until I can't tune right anymore, then sell them to my brother for about half price. His Alvarez doesn't hold a tune anyway, so he gets mostly fresh strings on the cheap, and I finance my axe's voracious appetite for strings.

Re:I can't wait...

[Inda]

Modded up and down so quickly...

I forget which models (Belmont rings a bell) but old Vauxhalls with automatic transmition tuned the engine inbetween gear changes to prevent that horrible lag.

I suspect the majority of automatic cars do it these days.

Re:I can't wait...

[ChrisMaple]

Tuneup often includes changing (or at least regapping) the spark plugs, then and now. Although in modern engines, modern plugs tend to last 50,000 miles or more, versus about 10,000 miles in 1970.

Re:I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all modern cars have knock sensors though . . .

Re:I can't wait...

[black mariah]

IAAGT (I am a guitar tech). It is not the strings. It is most likely the bridge on your acoustic is worn down and needs to be replaced. Take it to a repairman and get it fixed. Bridges are not designed so your strings are sharp or flat. Saddles get worn, and they need to be replaced. The sharp/flat thing is more likely than not just you running across the fact that guitars are NEVER correctly in tune. I suggest you check out this article by Jack Endino and read up on it: http://endino.com/archive/tuningnightmares.html

Re:I can't wait...

[runderwo]

It depends. Your Autozone Bosch +2's will probably only last a couple years at the most compared to +4's which will get changed with your timing belt:)

The better ignition components (esp. plugs and wires) you buy (within reason) the less maintenance you'll have to do over the long term.

Re:I can't wait...

[dasmegabyte]

Holy shit. That is the best article I have ever seen on the subject. I need the action lowered anyway...maybe I'll have them replace the whole damn saddle.

Re:I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

So yeah, cars are self tuning. In fact, anybody in the past 10 years who's sold you a "tune up" either did nothing at all to your car, or checked a lot of other things that had nothing to do with what we called a "tune up" before the 80s.

You sir, are an IDIOT. And the serving of dis-information you've put out leaves a foul taste in my mouth... If you're at all good with computers (this is Slashdot, after all!) I'd recommend you stick with them, because you'll get nowhere with automobiles...

Saying that someone who sold you a "tune up" did nothing for your car is like saying that astonauts just take a quick airplane ride.

In a "modern" car, a "good" tuneup requires inspection and/or replacement of the follow, none of which, save for the O2 sensor, can be done with/by the car's "computer":

- Spark Plugs (inspected and re-gapped at the least, replaced if worn)

- Spark Plug Wires (inspected at the least, replaced if worn- yes, these non-moving parts wear!)

- Oxygen Sensor (O2 Sensor) (a major-part of the "self-tuning" portion of your car's fuel and ignition systems, if this is in poor condition/non-operational, it is impossible to "self-tune" to an efficient state.

- Oil/ Oil Filter - (I'd like to see your car's "computer" replace this! You do replace these every 3,000 miles don't you?)

- Air Filter (an overly-dirty and restricted air filter leads to inefficient combustion which can only be compensated for so much before power and mpg begin to suffer)

- PCV Breather Filter (replacement - these cheap, small, easily replaced and often overlooked parts also contribute to you're engine' efficiency and a cleaner environment. If you don't know what Positive Crankcase Ventilation is, I recommend you don't go blathering out free car care advice on Slashdot)

- Fuel Filter (needs to be replaced at manufacturer-recommended intervals)

- Automatic Transmission Filter (same as above- you do want that tranny to last, don't you?)

- Automatic Transmission Fluid (at manufacturer-specifed intervals)

- Vacuum Hoses (worn vacuum hoses are major causes of ineffeciency in the combustion cycle. You wouldn't beleive the difference that can be made with a crack in a vacuum hose as small as 1/8")

- Temperature Sensors

- Thermostat

- Coolant Hoses (just need to be properly inspected)

- Belts - (it is impossible for the car's computer to tell you ANYTHING about their condition- ALL modern automobiles use this ancient technology to at least transfer power to your alternator, possibly control timing, run your power-steering pump, etc. These need to be inspected AND replaced at regular, manufacturer-specified intervals.

During a "tune-up" a good shop/mechanic will also verify you're tires are at their proper pressure (you do check this once a week, don't you?) and check their wear for you, as well as check smaller, simpler things like you're windshield wipers and wiper-fluid levels.

All of this was just off the top of my head. We didn't even get in the broader spectrum of whole-car health- grease fittings, tire-rotation, on and on. The topics I bulleted are just the main items involved in a proper tune-up. A reputable shop, hell, even a Jiffy-Lube/Grease-Monkey goes far beyond these simple items.

Please don't post so quickly next time...

Re:I can't wait...

[dasmegabyte]

I'm very proud of your ability to list things, but I'm afraid your categorization skills need a bit work. I can suggest some reputable kindergardens.

You listed many prevntative maintenance items, and many wear items. But not one item that needed to be "tuned up."

Changing oil or replacing a fuel filter is not a tune up. A tune up is something you do as often as possible to keep your car running at maximum efficiency. Preventative maintenance does not benefit from a shortened schedule, so you may as well do it as read in the book.

I mention this, because a lot of people (my father in law being one of them) follow their schedules and yet still take their cars in to be "tuned up." His mechanic is very happy to charge him $200 to replace a few brand fuel filters.

Older cars had three schedules: preventative maintenace, oil change schedules, AND tune up schedules. They are three separate types of maintenance. The last type is not necessary, I never claimed you could run a car 200k miles+ on a single fuel filter. My Beetle has over 300k miles on it and most of that is due to a diligent schedule including a tune up every other weekend in the summer.

Re:I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. - After browsing your website, I find that any statements you make are already suspect.

Case in point: On your front page you refer to your wife as hot. Who are you kidding? Have you actually looked at any of the pictures of her you've posted on your very own site?

Sweetness...

[bucktug]

Now if only they could get one to automatically play a real F or some of the more complicated SUS7#'s for us...

I have the fealing that most guitarists use the F just to stop me from trying to learn the song.

--Turvey

Re:Sweetness...

[fwankypoo]

[133211]

Just barre the open E at the first fret.

Re:Sweetness...

[LittleBigLui]

F (or all barre chords, for that matter) isn't all that complicated once you got the hang of it.

Of course, since re-tuning is now possible in very short time, you could just tune all the strings up a half tone when you need an F, fret an E and tune the strings back down when you're done with it. :)

Re:Sweetness...

[Vagrant]

I think his complaint is that F is the hardest chord to barre since it is so close to the nut. Depending on the guitar action and your hand strength, it is sometimes impossible to strum a clean crisp F.
To the original poster ... try a different guitar, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

As the site says:

The system comes with everything you need and help is always just a phone call away. (970) 482-9132.

I wish more tech companies worked like that.

P.S. Let the phone slashdotting begin....

P.P.S. How is this news:
We currently have about 50 systems in the hands of pro musicians, some for over ten years.

Re:Sweetness...

[Noah Adler]

Now if only they could get one to automatically play a real F

Maybe you should consider PRACTICING a little bit instead of looking to technology to make you a rock star.

If automation is really the way you want to go, there are even better guitars out there with your name on them. They don't stop at a mere F chord, they'll play the whole damn song for you! Rock star in a box!

But really, is an F honestly that hard to play? ;-)

Re:Sweetness...

[Golias]

In that case, I suggest you use x-8-10-10-10-8 (or even x-8-10-10-10-x, if your ring-finger knuckle doesn't bend backwards very well) instead.

Remember kids, there is no money in the first five frets! :)

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, since re-tuning is now possible in very short time, you could just tune all the strings up a half tone when you need an F, fret an E and tune the strings back down when you're done with it. :)

An even better idea for incompetent auto-tuning guitar owners would be to add an open F tuning to the tunings list. That would enable them to play clean F chords to their hearts' content.

Re:Sweetness...

[Awptimus Prime]

Remember kids, there is no money in the first five frets! :)

What about the Indigo Girls? :D

Re:Sweetness...

[Golias]

If you are a lesbian folk singer, there's no need to be a technical master of the guitar.

Thirtysomething male computer programmers, on the other hand, will impress nobody by singing "Blood and Fire" while openly weeping. Unless you are willing to dress up in flanel to pass yourself off as a very ugly butch lesbian and go on the Lilith Fair circuit, you need to learn how to play the whole guitar neck. :)

Re:Sweetness...

[lumpenprole]

Actually Guy Piccoletto of Fugazi used to pretty much do that with his band Rites of Spring. And he looked like a comp sci geek of the endomorphic variety.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

or forget the doubling, ditch the barre and just play

x332x1

or
1332xx

nobody will hear the difference.

Re:Sweetness...

[ThusandSuch]

Definitely...I couldn't play it for the first 3-4 months I played....It's not only that it's a bar chord, it's also really near to the nut and is hard to pin down.

Re:Sweetness...

[Pakaran2]

Heh...

Well, I have absolute pitch, so most attempts to transpose sound horrible to me. Not to mention the folks who thing that by playing 30-40 cents low they can sound more "haunting" - it sounds like a different song.

That, and I have yet to find a piano in any practice room in this school that's less than 10 cents off. I found one where the middle C is something like an A4 sharp.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Now if only they could get one to >automatically play a real F

Maybe you should consider PRACTICING a little bit instead of looking to technology to make you a rock star.

I only need the sex and drugs part of the rock star existence, practicing is for the newcomers...

Re:Sweetness...

[Keebler71]

The key to a good bar chord isn't the index finger,.. it is your THUMB! The thumb gives you the leverage you need to bear down with your index finger across all 6 strings equally. Most people press their thumb into the neck of the guitr closer to the side with the big-E string. This results in good contact on the E and A strings, but the higher strings will probably be too loose to get a good tone. Try moving the point where you apply thumb pressure on the back of the neck closer to the higher strings. It may help to 'slightly' rotate your index finger so that you are using a little of the harder 'side' of the finger rather than the meaty palm site of the finger.

Re:Sweetness...

[Greenisus]

I gotta give you props for knowing both Fugazi and Rites of Spring ... amazing bands. But the guy's name is Guy Picciotto. (pronounced pih-cho-toe)

Re:Sweetness...

[Golias]

That guy on the "learn great guitar" infomercials will tell you to use 13xxxx.

Play along with your favorite songs on the radio right away! Then realize that you would actually need to practice to get any farther, stow your brand-new Gibson away in the back of a closet after two days, and forget you even own it until the next time you move... at which time you could just eBay it, but that would mean giving up and admitting to your wife that buying it was a waste of money in the first place, which means you will not be allowed to complain when she makes her next $30,000 car purchase based on which one has more cup holders.

Re:Sweetness...

[good soldier svejk]

IIRC from my DC days, it is pronounced it ghee pi-show-toe. At least that is how I remember Amy pronouncing it.

Re:Sweetness...

[Dr. Smeegee]

I do not feel the humour,
I do not get the joke,
and I will not be a troll!
For the geeks of Slashdot
any longer....

Re:Sweetness...

[quisph]

Is 3-4 months to learn an instrument really so unreasonable?

Re:Sweetness...

[brian ferullo]

it sure is that hard to play, at least if you're new to it. if you're used to playing only open first-position chords, as most new players do, getting your index finger to both press down hard enough and close enough to the fret that it doesn't make that annoying buzz is hard.

that said, an open Gm confounded me for months.

Re:Sweetness...

[graikor]

Hey, if an F chord is that hard for you, why don't you use drop-D tuning?

Just [333xxx], a simple, one finger barre, and you've got your F (mind, that totally screws up your E and G open chord forms, but you could work around that, and D will sound fuller since you can use the open 5th and 6th string...)

Re:Sweetness...

[Greenisus]

ooh, you're probably right. i could have easily misheard it. i have the fugazi instrument video, but it's on VHS, and i have no VCR, so i can't double check until i get the dvd of it

Re:Sweetness...

[dhudson0001]

Gawd. Why not keep 3 guitars handy...individually tuned to open string C,F & G chords. That way if your really good at scrambling, you could fake your way through most of Bob Segar's setlist...

Re:Sweetness...

[matrix0f8h]

You could play the F chord like i've seen Jimi Hendrix do it and use your thumb to hold down the E string on the first fret.

Billy Corgan did some interesting things this way.

Re:Sweetness...

[good soldier svejk]

My favorite Dischord bands were Scream, Jawbox and Shudder to Think. Although, in college I really liked Rites of Spring and Beefeater, and in high school I liked Teen Idles, Minor Threat, Government Issue of course. All that Flex Your Head stuff.

But the first punk band to win my heart, and still my favorite rock band of all time, is Bad Brains. Best live act ever, especially on the Return To Heaven tour of 86-87. Unfortunately, their ideas on homosexuality border on Nazism.

Re:Sweetness...

[gauauu]

or your pinky finger, as like to do it. I never could get my ring finger to fit nicely to do the A string bar chords, and one day I decided to try using my pinky.

My life has never been the same.

Re:Sweetness...

[haggar]

I have some sort of arthritis, so I am not able to play with the full barretto. But I learned that it's not even necessary, most of the time! For the F chord, you just use the tip of your index to depress the first two strings, instead of the barretto, and avoid plucking the last string.

Re:Sweetness...

[gauauu]

If automation is really the way you want to go, there are even better guitars out there with your name on them. They don't stop at a mere F chord, they'll play the whole damn song for you! Rock star in a box! But really, is an F honestly that hard to play? ;-)

Um, when you are learning, and if you a guitar with a high action, yes. I had trouble with F when I started, and I know many other people that did too.

And your mocking, "You are pathetic because you are not as talented as me" attitude really helps the situation.

I'm sure you never had trouble doing anything while you were learning it?

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

Usually choice of key is related to the psychology of the song, and the vocalist's range.

Chord fingering of anything comes easier with a little practice.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

Clapton and SRV also play barre chords this way.

They use their thumb on the E, and A strings. You need big hands to make it sound clean.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been doodling around (the only apt description I can think of) with guitars for years and the F chord in standard tuning is probably the hardest for beginners to learn. I think most people would agree that it is the "make or break" point for continued learning or dropping it and moving on to something else.

Sort of like the jump from 4 items in juggling to 5. Separates out the wannabes from the truly interested.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

KORN!

Re:Sweetness...

[black mariah]

Yes. I played for probably a year before I was even remotely good.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? 99% of all pop music is dumb simple and played on those first 5 frets! I would say that is where ALL the money is!

Re:Sweetness...

[Golias]

I sometimes use the same cheat on the rare occation that I'm playing by big classical guitar.

If you have to use it all the time on regular guitars, I would not want to call attention to it though. You know what the ladies say about men with small hands... ("They wear small gloves!")

Re:Sweetness...

[sbb]

This is also the best way to play D/F# (IMO). I know that classical guitarists or instructors would consider "hanging the thumb" to be lazy and poor form, but I figure if it works so well for Clapton, who's really going to argue? Do what works, purists be damned!

Re:Sweetness...

[nooch]

Thumbs can come in handy. I usually use them to finger 11th chords, especially when I am playing melody concurrently. This is something I use in jazz. For example:

A11 (A eleven)

E-|-3----
B-|-3-5(p)
D-|-4----
G-|-5----
A-| -x----
E-|-5(t)-

Hold the 6th string 5th fret with your thumb, and you can use your pinky to hit melody notes. It's fingered much like an G barre, really, but with a different root note and a muted 5th string. Sorry I didn't make a better chord diagram...

-Joe

Re:Sweetness...

[quisph]

I wasn't saying that you should be able to learn an instrument in 3-4 months. I was saying just the opposite, in fact -- that if it only takes you 3-4 months to learn to play barre chords, you have no cause for complaint.

Re:Sweetness...

[brand bendy]

Hendrix used his thumb on the low E string a lot too.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

Another easy (easier) "real" F is x87565, the basic "C" chord shape moved up to the fifth fret. Use your index finger to barre the top three strings.

It's still something of a reach, but it's a nice higher voicing. There's also the A-shape starting on the 8th fret, as mentioned above, and in my opinion, there's really nothing wrong with xx3211--just a little less bass, but the lowest note is still the root.

Re:Sweetness...

[Keebler71]

Absolutely ("litle wing" anyone?)... and very common in blues as well. However, holding the neck this way makes it impossible to form a "correct" barr chord. Which was what I was trying to explain how to do.

Re:Sweetness...

[Anonymous Coward]

He may sound condescending, but really, is there any reason to complain about not being able to play whatever chords? With effort and slow practice, it'll come.

Re:Sweetness...

[NateTech]

LOL... I'm having visions of three dudes standing on stage playing "Hollywood Nights" on three guitars tuned this way -- each assigned a single long-ringing chord.

That was great for a laugh, man.

Re:Sweetness...

[NateTech]

A moment of silence for SRV...

Roadies

[Em Emalb]

man, I feel bad for the roadies.

No more tuning the guitars.

Sucks to be them.

Guess its mic checks from here on out. Sorry fellas.

Re:Roadies

[LittleBigLui]

Guess its mic checks from here on out. Sorry fellas.

but mic checks are so much more rewarding:

(big festival, crowd waiting for next band)

Roadie: Microphone check ...
Roadie: ... one, TWO!
Crowd: ONE, TWO!
Roadie: CHECK, CHECK, ONE, TWO!
Crowd: CHECK, CHECK, ONE, TWO!
(Singer enters the stage, hugs roadie)
Singer: That nice guy is Jimmy. Everybody say "Fuck you, Jimmy"!
Crowd: Fuck you, Jimmy!

ahh, the sweet memories :)

Re:Roadies

[ciaohound]

Their jobs are all being outsourced to India anyway.

Re:Roadies

[sindarin2001]

are you refering to Mindless Self Indulgence? If you're not, they've got a song called "I Hate Jimmy Page". I like 'em, though they are a little...different.

Re:Roadies

[farrellj]

Still needed to change the strings...Now, self healing strings, that would be quite something!

ttyl
Farrell

Re:Roadies

[dafragsta]

Strings still break. Roadies still have jobs. heh Most bands having roadies change strings quite frequently in addition to the breakage factor. Also most guitarists have more than one guitar.

Re:Roadies

[gblues]

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: Why do sound technicians only count to two?
A: Because if they could count to three, they'd be lighting technicians.

Nathan

Re:Roadies

[Anonymous Coward]

I still feel sorry for 'em. Not just because re-stringing guitars with these devices is a (you have no idea) major pain, but because... well, they're guitar techs.

Yes, this is both informative and trollish flamebait (for guitar techs).

PS: We don't use the R word anymore. It's a pejorative.

Re:Roadies

[Anonymous Coward]

Again with the R word. Jeezus. What a bunch of n00bs.

Re:Roadies

[SanLouBlues]

Yeah, I wonder how this thing will affect string life. Constant retuning is a bad thing due to the stretching.

Not to mention, the site says you can only use strings of the gage that is programmed in at the factory. I'd have to pay extra for heavy gage on the bottom and light gage on the top! And then I'd have to use a different guitar for all heavy gage!

Maybe this would be good for a nylon string guitar, but the cost is simply too much for a product that is too restrictive for my wants.

Re:Roadies

[blinder]

heh... but this (probably) will never replace a decent guitar tech.

remember, there's more to it than just getting the instrument in tune. Setting up a guitar is an art in of itself.

but... there's a HUGE difference between "roadie" and "guitar tech."

Re:Roadies

[black mariah]

As often as I retune my guitars on my own, I can't see it being a problem. I'll go from E all the way down to F and back again (I use REALLY heavy strings, if you can't tell).

Re:Roadies

[subVorkian]

They are not roadies, they are guitar technicians.

geez

Re:Roadies

[Anonymous Coward]

no no no -
Q: why do sound technicians only count to two?
A: because on three they have to lift

ever seen a foh engineer load-in or load-out?

Re:Roadies

[Anonymous Coward]

I still don't think they heard you. Try calling 'em Lunix zealot code-monkeys, and then maybe they'll get the freakin' point. Forgive them Jeebus, 'cuz they know not nothin'.

Re:Roadies

[LittleBigLui]

no, no reference to any particular band. actually was at that festival and shouted back at the roadie, and played along with the singer. don't remember what band it was, don't remember what festival it was ("Rock im Park" in Nurnberg, .de, probably, but don't ask me for the year).

Cool, but...

[kinnell]

Does it run linux? It would be cool to be able to check your email in the middle of a gig by running mutt on the LCD display.

Re:Cool, but...

[fryguybob]

Microsoft's Paul Allen owns one. Maybe it runs windows... of course it would be pretty hard to make a blue screen of death for a green LCD display.

Re:Cool, but...

[Plammox]

...and control it using different chords?
F#m for viewing attachments and C#7maj9 for 'Send'....

Re:Cool, but...

[kinnell]

...and control it using different chords?

That would bring new meaning to the term "Chorded Keyboard".

Re:Cool, but...

[gravelpup]

Paul Allen is funding this, therefore it sucks. But Allen is funding SpaceShipOne, which is cool! But SpaceShipOne is Armadillo's competitor, therefore it sucks! But... *head explodes*

Re:Cool, but...

[physicsboy500]

Man... that would be sweet, but you would only be able to type A-G...

well... you could tell them:

geb,
feed a deaf egg.
deb.

Re:Cool, but...

[Deflagro]

Did you ever see that special on the Simpsons? Showing that all the sound effects are controlled by a guy playing bass? For different chords and notes, it activates a certain sound effect. I thought that was pretty cool.

Re:Cool, but...

[icklemichael]

Does it run linux?

Imagine a beowulf cluster of those... :)

Re:Cool, but...

[Sabalon]

But the whole Paul Allen and Ticketmaster thing...instantly negates any good he may do elsewhere. :)

Re:Cool, but...

[sdcharle]

Some of the toppings contain sodium benzoate.

That's bad.

Re:Cool, but...

[MicroFirm]

Paul Allen bought one, and that's all!

tuning

[iii_rjm]

Ok It ssems I know nothing about guitars. Pennies are used as a measurement of how close a guitar is to being in tune?

Re:tuning

[Anonymous Coward]

IDNPAG (I Do Not Play A Guitar) but it seems to me that cents might mean hundredths as in it is just two hundredths away from the proper frequency.

Re:tuning

[NorthWoodsman]

100 cents = 1 half-step = the smallest pitch distance on a piano

Re:tuning

[Sub-MOA]

Good ole wikipedia
The cent is a logarithmic measure of relative pitch or intervals. 1200 cents are equal to one octave, and an equally tempered semitone is equal to 100 cents.

Re:tuning

[eggoeater]

12 full steps = 1,000,000 cents = $10,000 = cost of rehab.....

vocalists

[v_1_r_u_5]

Now if only we can get these for vocalists...

Re:vocalists

[Bohnanza]

Believe it or not, Autotune already exists! This product is the sole reason people like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake can be called "singers"

Re:vocalists

[coolgabe]

It's likely that Britney needs it, but I'm pretty sure Justin can hit the notes on his own most of the time. Check out *nsync's version of "O Holy Night" if you don't believe me.

Re:vocalists

[SkyMunky]

this

Re:vocalists

[CausticPuppy]

Antares makes some wonderful technology. I use their Kantos synth all the time (uses the same pitch controller than autotune does, but the output drives a synth).

Unfortunately, in the case of autotune, it's a case of good technology that is mostly used for evil. And by "evil" I mean "crappy boy/girl bands."

Re:vocalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out *nsync's version of "O Holy Night" if you don't believe me.

No one on Slashdot is actually going to do this.

Re:vocalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps someone who knows how this works can answer this.

Can you input a tune in midi and then sing in monotone and have it make your monotone voice match the input tune?

If not, this is a recorded instance of this idea on February 19th, 2004. I have had this for idea for a long time, but am not sure if I have recorded it anywhere publically before.

Can you tell from this that I can't carry a tune in a brown paper bag?

A Nony Mouse

Re:vocalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

You record a song in midi. You then sing a mono-tone note. The computer then uses your voice and adjusts the pitch/frequency of your voice to match the recorded midi song.

If this is the case, it's already been done. Furthermore, computer-generated singing voices are becoming more and more of a reality.

Re:vocalists

[jellomizer]

Or is this part of an Evil Plot to make us join the Navi?

Re:vocalists

[Mr_Silver]

Believe it or not, Autotune already exists! This product is the sole reason people like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake can be called "singers"

It was also used by Pink in the song "Get the party started". If you listen to the track, the metallicy bit was produced using Autotune.

(fact courtsey of the Science Museum, London)

Re:vocalists

[TheTomcat]

I've used similar products to "autotune" in the studio, when mixing.. (there's a VST plugin for it) saves a LOT of time.. especially when the singer is at the edge of his/her range, or when the engineer comes back with "fresh ears" and hears a small variance, but doesn't have the vocalist on hand.

You may not like it, but it's VERY useful for minor pitch correction.. I'd never use it live, though.

S

Re:vocalists

[jhoffoss]

From the autotune page linked in the parent: Since then, thousands of ATR-1s have found their way into touring racks, live performance rigs, and recording studios of artists and producers like Cher, Reba, Everclear, Al Schmitt and many, many more.

Is it me, or is naming these artists not that big an attraction for this product? And I don't even know who Al Schmitt is.

Re:vocalists

[Ytsejam-03]

It's not just Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake. It's damn near every so-called "singer" in the top 40 these days. Real talent is seconday to image in this industry. The only reason that we don't see bands like Milli Vanilli these days is because studios can use technologies like autotune and Pro Tools to make any nice set of breasts sound like a pro.

Re:vocalists

[nfotxn]

And soon they will be replaced with vocal synthesizers like Vocaloid that will allow future Britneys and Justins to focus sorely on being pretty and making wadrobes "malfunction".

Idoru anyone?

Re:vocalists

[kin_korn_karn]

it's possible for pitch to be TOO correct. For example, Zeppelin (on topic, sort of) wouldn't be nearly as interesting if Plant had been right on pitch down to the cent on every note. Top 40 listeners don't care because top 40 listeners in general can't appreciate the nuances of the voice.

Worse yet is that with Auto-Tune and digital tracking, you can't trust an album anymore. There's so much that can be done now to cover up bad musicianship that you can't believe that a CD represents the true abilities. There have been studio tricks and editing for a long time but not the ability to change the complete program of a track like Pro Tools and similar systems give you.

Re:vocalists

[Pakaran2]

Well, to be fair, some voices (like Dylan's) just naturally drift a good amount.

Others (Sinatra) don't. That's not caused by poor pitch. That said, I've also heard entire churches singing in perfect tune with an off-tune organ.

Re:vocalists

[TheTomcat]

So, where's the line?

Should everything be live, off-the-floor, with a pair of large diaphragm mics (stereo), running into a 2-track?

What about drum loops? Can they be "trusted"? What if said loops are sampled as opposed to composed?

Or delay pedals? How about live-built guitar loops? Or a lead singer doing his own backup vocals? Is it ok to mic an accoustic guitar at the sound hole, AND at the base of the neck? How about something as simple as an EQ? Or reverb that DOESN'T come from a 30 foot tall, rock-lined iso.?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but.. there IS no line, AFAICT... gray areas..

I say, do what you need to do to make the recording sound as good as possible -- "good" being an artsy term, not a scientific one. And remember, there is much value in knowing that good album mixing/production is more than just setting up some mics, and moving the faders to the right levels?

S

Re:vocalists

[kin_korn_karn]

I think we agree, basically.

Look at it this way. Rush recorded "La Villa Strangiato" (a 9-minute masturbatory instrumental that goes through a bunch of time signatures, if you're not familiar with the song) in one take, live, with no overdubbing or editing. They had it all together and knew what they were going to do well before the tape got rolling.

Today, they would probably record one part at a time and an engineer would cut and paste it together and smooth out the transitions with a plugin.

It's hard to know whether you should respect a band's musicianship or not because it's too easy to fake it now.

Now, whether you like Rush or not (most people don't and I don't want to get into that) you can't argue with their technical musicianship. Sure, they could have faked part of it then, but you couldn't cut and paste portions of individual tracks without loss like you can with today's systems and someone with good trained ears would be able to hear it.

Zappa used to say that the studio was where the composition gets perfected, so there's no shame in using studio tricks to enhance your music. I agree with that, but to me as an anal semi-purist I don't think you should use studio tricks to CREATE your music.

Re:vocalists

[errxn]

There is also the time issue, where you've done 30 takes of a part and each one of them is close to perfect, but not quite there. At some point, you've gotta step back and ask yourself if you're going to be able to get it any better than what is already laid down. If the answer is 'no', I really don't have a problem with cutting and pasting sections to make it right, because at that point, it's time to move on.

Re:vocalists

[UncleGizmo]

I also pretty much agree w/you, and would posit this: I think most 'purists' have more an issue with lack of musicianship than with studio production. If great musicians used the studio to make a cool song, fine. The problem comes when artists essentially become popular because of their looks, the way they dance, and the songs they 'perform' [I won't say sing] - which are generally written by someone who is truly talented at writing a song.

I got into a huge argument recently with someone who hates the new Outkast song 'Hey Ya'. I admit it's a silly, fun song, but it's also catchy, and there are some [IMO] brilliant little hooks/time sigs in there that make it what it is. But at least they wrote and produced it themselves.

Who gets more fame, glory, and cash - Britney, or her songwriters, engineers, producers and choreographers who make her what she is? Shouldn't be that way, if we were rewarding the real artists instead of the art.

Re:vocalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just the top 40...this is used in almost every decent recording studio.

It's used a lot even when the vocalist is good...it just makes the recording process quicker, and can save a lot of studio time.

Re:vocalists

[Ytsejam-03]

I agree with you 100%. The complete and utter lack of musicianship in almost all of today's popluar music disgusts me. Espically when there are lots of really talented bands out there that get no recognition.

ProSoundWeb has a series of articles written by a professional recording engineer working with a newly signed band with very little talent. I have no idea if anything written in these articles is true, but much of it would not surprise me. Check out Progged Radio for some great independent bands. (I'm in no way affiliated with Progged Radio, just an avid listener.)

Re:vocalists

[Ytsejam-03]

I think we agree on this. I'm not arguing that ProTools does not have its place in the studio. However, I think that it is often overused to cover up for an artist's complete lack of talent.

Re:vocalists

[etLux]

How dare you use those names in the same sentence as the word "singers".

Re:vocalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah...

I think you're confusing things a bit. There is a difference between "making" a great song, and performing or writing a great song. Each uses a different skillset and they should not all be lumped into the same basket.

Ultimately, if the final product sounds good and has some soul and moves people then who really cares how it happened?

And for the record, I'm an old skool rocker but I love the technology that's available today.

Re:vocalists

[timeOday]

Believe it or not, Autotune [antarestech.com] already exists! This product is the sole reason people like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake can be called "singers"

...it's VERY useful for minor pitch correction... I'd never use it live, though.

Live? The only time Spears or Timberlake performs live is in their own nightmares.

Re:vocalists

[timeOday]

I know it's kind of flaky, but I like "American Idol" because I think it is an honest talent show. True, they consider stage presence and showmanship as well as singing, but the people who do well really are talented and entertaining, and I don't think they're using any Autotune. In fact, one of the judges on the show (the black guy formerly from Rush) has been talking in interviews about how the music industry is sagging because it's so out of touch, and how many of the people who do well on the show probably wouldn't get to sign a deal otherwise, like the fat guy from last year.

Re:vocalists

[UncleGizmo]

Thanks! I've read the Prosoundweb stuff before, but haven't kept up on it. I'll check it again.

peace

Re:vocalists

[Ubernurd]

guess what? you can!

http://www.antarestech.com/

This is a must-have for any professional recording studio. When used subtly it can make background vocal harmonies ring clearly and in perfect tune. If deliberately overused, it makes a neat effect that was in vogue a few years ago. Remember "Do you believe in life after love" by Cher from a little while ago? That's a pretty good example of a blatant overuse of antares autotune. The pitch correction has a tolerance level which, if set too sensitive, will "snap" your pitch to the next [low/high]er note when you've deviated from one it recognizes by "too much". When set more subtly it will gently bend or guide your pitch to where it "should" be.

It's not just for vocals either. It works great for instruments, too!

I wonder...

[millahtime]

I wonder how many guitarists will take to this since to them it is such and art and about what they hear. Can a computer really tune to the level that they can hear it needs to be tuned to for them?

Re:I wonder...

[Too Many Secrets]

Well it claims +- 2 cents, which should be in the range of proper guitar tuning. However, the mass guitar playing population has never been keen on technology changes in their instruments. There is a reason the most popular guitars are still strats and les pauls, neither of which have changed much in the last 50 years.

Re:I wonder...

[mtrupe]

We've been using chromatic tuners for a long time--- much more accurate than 2 cents. This would have been good during the hair band era, when those guys were using wammy bars like they were going out of style...

Re:I wonder...

[cozziewozzie]

A vast majority of guitar players I've met (and I've met a share as I used to play live) use electric tuners for their guitar. There is nothing more embarrassing than standing on the stage and tuning 'by ear' while the whole audience is listening. From electronic tuners (some of which are digital) to an auto-tuning guitar is a very small step -- the only thing you get to do when using a tuner is tune up or down depending on what it tells you.

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well one time I broke a string 2 minutes before I had to go on stage. I replaced the string but it was too noisy backstage to tune the guitar properly. I ended up going on stage with 1 string out of tune. If I had one of these on my guitar I wouldn't have had a problem. Now I don't go anywhere without backup guitars but I'd love to put one of these auto-tuners on all of them.

Re:I wonder...

[kinnell]

to them it is such and art and about what they hear

Tuning is a science, not an art. Either the guitar is in tune, or it's not. If it's not, it sounds wrong. An out of tune guitar sounds bad, period. The only issue I can see, is if the tuning mechanism affects the tone, but this is unlikely, if they've designed it properly.

Can a computer really tune to the level that they can hear it needs to be tuned to for them?

I'll wager a computer can tune a lot better than most guitarists.

Re:I wonder...

[SoTuA]

Well, your string was doomed anyway... new strings have this tendency to de-tune within minutes...

After a day or two, the strings have already settled and can stay in tune for a little while longer.

Re:I wonder...

[Skater]

Ironically, they were going out of style!

--RJ

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well what I do is after I put on a new string and tune it I manually stretch it (basically grab it with my finger and pull it as far up, left and right that it will go, I do this for about 10 seconds). Then I tune it again. If you do that it's good for a few songs at least. It will still de-tune while you are playing but it will be much less severe.

Re:I wonder...

[SoTuA]

I had heard about string strectching, but my string manufacturer discouraged it, and, since I play bass, and in South America, a set of bass strings cost the earth! I figured, if I had to spend such a quantity of money, I should take good care of strings, wich included not stretching. Fortunately, bass strings are less prone to this detuning than guitar strings (it seems like the "smooth" strings, the first three ones are more prone to this than the roundwound ones)

Re:I wonder...

[coolgabe]

If you properly stretch the string, you can stabilize the tuning in less than two minutes. No need to wait a day or two. (I'm not a pro, but have played many shows on stage in the past.)

Re:I wonder...

[WTFmonkey]

I agree with your effect, but disagree on the cause.

The reason the strats and les pauls are so popular is that they were once great guitars. Back when they were made in America with big, fat frets and big, fat pickups, all of which produced big, fat sound. Now most of them come from Korea and even the few still made in the US are inferior to their predecessors.

Also, there hasn't been much technology to improve. You had a big explosion during the 50s and 60s, guys like Hendrix and Pink Floyd and Zeppelin building their own effects boxes (okay, their engineers did it, whatever). But there just isn't a whole lot of room for the guitar field to grow. Once you dick with it too much it stops being a guitar and becomes something... um, else.

Yoooohoooo, where's my coffee? I don't even know if that was coherent.

Re:I wonder...

[brennan73]

Hell, this would absolutely advance the art: using alternate tunings is a pain in the ass. If I had the freedom to choose an alternate tuning basically at will, it would open up tremendous possibilities. Choosing and using the tuning is the art: getting there is just a matter of turning a knob to the correct place. Not to mention that I wouldn't have to play the Tuning Song at gigs anymore... :)

My only concern is cutting my Les Paul open: will this thing work forever? Will it affect the tone? Do I like the way it looks? Etc.

Re:I wonder...

[iomud]

I'm pretty sure this is why the Boss TU-2 has bypass so you can tune without other people listening even in the middle of a song during a drum solo or breakdown what have you. Visual feedback so you don't even have to be able to hear to tune properly.

Re:I wonder...

[carpe_noctem]

I call bullshit. I've been to dozens of gigs where guitarists retuned on stage by ear. Generally, the accepted protocol is to turn your guitar down so only you can hear it, instead of the entire audience.

Unless you are a huge moron, you generally tune your guitar before you go onstage. At the end of a song, you might hear that some chords sound a bit "off", so a quick check by the 5th degrees will tell you which string to tune. I can't even tell you how many times I've seen a lead guitarist just make a quick adjustment to the low E (or whatever tuning you use) before starting the next song in a set.

If anything, there's nothing more embarassing than going on stage, saying "hold on real quick, everybody!", and then running over to your amp and re-tuning by eye. Any musician worth his weight should be able to tune by ear within 10% at the very, very least.

Re:I wonder...

[Golias]

If you are having trouble buying bass strings, follow Paul McCartney's lead. In the early days of the Beatles he would string his bass with piano strings. This is a very cheap solution if you know a piano player who you don't like very much. It will probably wreck your fret-board, but rock and roll is supposed to be destructive, right?

Re:I wonder...

[bluGill]

Before you say tuning is a science you need to learn something about tuning. The correct tuning is NOT based on math, where you have A at 440 double it for the next A, and then divide that interval into 12 and put each note in its place based on the division. Well it is, we call it standard temperment (or even temperment), and it is the most common temperment in use today. However Standard temperment is always wrong. We use it because it sounds okay everywhere and we have trained our ears to accept it. True musicians (of which I am not) play with temperment, which allows them to play one chord that is perfect, but it comes at the expensive of some other chord being so wrong even a tone deaf person won't like it. There are many other temperments, with various advantages and disadvantages.

Bach's well tempered organ was written to show off how a chord sounds different in different keys, and doesn't sound the same on with standard temperment.

This is far more complex than a simple science. Stick with standard temperments and your right, it is a science, but are true artist knows and [sometimes] uses other temperments when they are better. That is art.

Re:I wonder...

[TheTomcat]

1) Most pro guitarists don't tune their own axes. They have techs to do that.
2) The techs use electronic tuners, already.. they're cheap -- $10-20 (low end).
3) Amateur guitarists use the same tuners.. basically it's an electronic device that has either a needle, or lights (or both) to show how far "off" you are from the desired note, and plugs in, or uses a built-in mic to "listen" to the played note. There's software to do this, if you're interested.. check freshmeat.
4) any guitarist worth his rider can tell when a guitar is out of tune, but will usually still tune with an electronic tuner (or have his tech do it).

S

Re:I wonder...

[cozziewozzie]

Yeah, that's the whole point of using a tuner. If you tune by ear, you have to listen to yourself, and the rest of the people have to listen with you :-)

Re:I wonder...

[SpamJunkie]

Tuning is a science, not an art.

It would be a science if it wasn't for the pesky fact that strings are analog, and thus slightly flawed. A professional tunes a guitar for the particular songs that will be played on it. Watch big acts live and you'll see that they switch guitars nearly every song, sometimes for a guitar of the exact same make and model.

The guitars are being tuned ever so slightly different to compensate for the fact that the strings don't behave entirely perfectly. Wound strings tune a bit different than unwound, for example.

Of course most people tune their open strings and don't worry about the slight errors in some of their chords.

Re:I wonder...

[clbyjack81]

"Any musician worth his weight should be able to tune by ear within 10% at the very, very least."

At the very, very least is a bit of an understatement. As a classical musician (horn, not classical guitar) I am expected to be able to tune on the fly to within...say...+/- 0 cents. I am expected to be dead on, all the time. Only a bit of skill and practice is required. I just don't get all this talk of "well, 2 cents ought to be close enough"!

Re:I wonder...

[Pakaran2]

I'll wager a computer can tune a lot better than most guitarists.

Also, the computer won't tune relative to one out-of-tune instrument, like most bands seem to. As I have absolute pitch, this is a rather familiar issue for me. Not to mention the folks that think that by deliberately tuning several half steps off they can sound lively or haunting... it makes them sound crappy is what it does.

Re:I wonder...

[kinnell]

It would be a science if it wasn't for the pesky fact that strings are analog, and thus slightly flawed

You tune the string by measuring the frequency, not the tension. This accounts for the flaws. A guitar is normally tuned manually by adjusting the strings until the beat frequency dissappears. This requires playing different notes, so an automatic system would be a little more complicated, but it's still just a signal processing problem.

Re:I wonder...

[cozziewozzie]

Your post was unreasonably aggressive and full of BS. I won't flame you back, just point out a few things:

- Electric tuners do not sit next to your amp and you can use them without anyone in the audience noticing.
- If you turn your guitar/amp down so the audience doesn't hear it, you probably won't hear it either. Do you know how the sound is wired at a gig?
- Re-tuning a string or two doesn't mean that you won't go out of tune with your other bandmates.
- Many professional players DO have tuners and use them during gigs, because only children think it's so badass to demonstrate your tuning ninja skills on stage.

Re:I wonder...

[back_pages]

Actually, there are footboxes that very brightly display a chromatic tuner while killing the output signal. So between songs, you can stomp on the box (which makes your guitar silent) and then very easily tune it visually.

You can even do this while you're talking, chewing gum, or arguing about which song to play next.

Tuning by eye, however, is something else entirely. It is an obscure talent that I've only seen demonstrated once. The guy played a steel string and he would just hold the where he could see it from the front and then turn all the knobs. When he was done, he'd announce, "That looks about right," and then hold up the guitar for the audience to inspect it. He was good, too -- the guitar was always in tune.

(It was an act of misdirection while he used his footpedal tuner. It got a great reaction from the crowd.)

Re:I wonder...

[carpe_noctem]

Your post was unreasonably aggressive and full of BS. I won't flame you back, just point out a few things:


Thanks; agression is a good quality imo.


- Electric tuners do not sit next to your amp and you can use them without anyone in the audience noticing.


I've seen several amps with tuners built in.


- If you turn your guitar/amp down so the audience doesn't hear it, you probably won't hear it either. Do you know how the sound is wired at a gig?


I didn't mean 100% of the way; I usually just turn the knob down a bit and tap the pedal so you don't blast everyone's ass with dischordinance.


- Re-tuning a string or two doesn't mean that you won't go out of tune with your other bandmates.


I grant.


- Many professional players DO have tuners and use them during gigs, because only children think it's so badass to demonstrate your tuning ninja skills on stage.


I'll keep this in mind the next time I go off to see the white stripes or dave matthews or some other assorted bullshit.

Re:I wonder...

[Keebler71]

Tuning IS a science! When I taught physics to prep school students, I would bring in my guitar when we discussed beats and let them hear beats for themselves as I brought two tones closer together and farther apart. Of course, you can not use harmonics to get 'exactly' in tune due to the equal-tempered nature of Western cultures' music scales, but you sure can get close.

Personally I use a tuner about once every couple years... and usually just prove to myself that I don't need it. If you use the harminic method, and get the beat period down to 10 seconds or so, you are talking on the order of .1 Hz of error. The gottcha is that you don't want to compare harmonics all the way across the neck as the errors are cumulative and you will hear that high E and low E are not tuned an octave apart. Once I get tuned close, I then play several different chords arpeggio style (one note at a time) making slight adjustments here and there (open G, C and D chords sufice for me). I assume that this last step is correcting a 'pure-tuning' to an 'equal-tempered' tuning. Is it fast? No... it takes me a minute or two; but it is rewarding in an 'I solved the Rubic's cube' kind of way.

Re:I wonder...

[Too Many Secrets]

I hear what you're saying, but don't forget, lots of advancements out there have been outright spurned by guitarists. Anything digital is one. How about the steinberger tuning style? I've had a couple, they NEVER go out of tune, and you can change a string in about 40 seconds on guitar or bass. Their trans-trem system was equally amazing.

Also the use of non-traditional woods and polymers (graphite stuff, a la parker) has also been put aside by the masses. When in fact, the tonal differences are minute at best (especially when using any sort of effects on a guitar, overdrive or eq)

But hey, noones ever like my guitars ;)

Re:I wonder...

[jeddak]

Sorry - with most guitars, using equal temperement, tuning IS an art, not a science, becaue the guitar can never be perfectly in tune.

What constitutes in-tune turns out to be subjective, since the octaves are spread out in such a way that they are never 100% consonant.

Not to mention the inaccuracies of imperfect fret-spacing measurements - your guitar, even when well-set up and intonated, can be in-tune in one position, and out of tune in another.

The Buzz Feiten tuning system aims to help correct some of these issues, but as long as you're wed to equal temperement, you're never 100% in tune.

Re:I wonder...

[jeddak]

There is such a thing as tuning by eye - using a device called a strobe tuner (Peterson is the most well-known manufacturer). Basically a light, strobed at the frequency you're tuning to.

You know your string is in tune when it appears to stop moving when plucked.

Re:I wonder...

[alleycat0]

>Either the guitar is in tune, or it's not.

This is an oversimplification at best; outright wrong at worst. There are a number of factors that come into play when deciding on tuning an instrument. A major consideration is 'natural' vs. 'equal temperament' tuning. The use of natural tuning allows for more consonance between notes, but one is limited to playing in certain keys/chords. In order to enjoy the freedom of playing any chord or in any key desired, one needs to employ equal temperament tuning (in which every note is equidistant in frequency - this is not the case for natural tunings), with the result being some intervals will not be as consonant as they would be in a natural tuning.

I won't bore you with additional details or the mathematics/physics behind this; suffice to say a good grounding in music theory would dissuade you of the notion that there is a single concept of proper tuning.

Re:I wonder...

[gymell]

"Out of tune" according to what system? Within the western system of tuning alone, there are many approaches to tuning, appropriate to different time periods and characteristics of the music being played. And that's not taking into consideration non-western scales and tuning systems.

Tuning is in the ear of the beholder. Equal temperament, which is what you've undoubtedly based your concept of "in-tuneness" on, is a relatively modern (within the last 300 years) compromise which allows us to play in all keys by making every key slightly out of tune. Our modern ears have become so accustomed to this sound that most people today have no sense of what being in tune really is.

For example, Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier was written to highlight the different qualities of each major and minor key. When played on a modern equal-tempered piano, the entire point of the work is lost because every key sounds the same. If you were to listen to it played on a well-tempered harpsichord, you'd probably think it sounds out of tune.

The moral of the story, before you decide something is out of tune, consider that the strong possibility it's not the instrument, but your own ears which have a tuning problem. And before you make a comment about it, learn a little more about the topic.

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the guy in the white stripes doesn't have to worry about going out of tune with his bandmates now does he?

As far as Dave Matthews goes, he generally plays acoustic, which has a fixed bridge - these have fewer tuning problems than some other guitars.

Re:I wonder...

[UncleGizmo]

Slow down a bit. You may have been to dozens of gigs, but as a guitarist I'd like to make a couple points.

1. Agreed that only morons wouldn't tune prior to a show, and that good ears can tune quite well. I can usually tune my acoustic [when practicing] without a tuner or even fretting from string to string.
2. HOWEVER - Changing conditions [hot/cold, dry/humid] can put a guitar out of tune really quickly. Sometimes from backstage to stage, if you have a sensitive instrument.
3. Any performance that uses amplification complicates the issue. Harmonic tuning can cause some serious feedback/frequency waves if you're cranked, and the audience doesn't like that too much.
4. Turning down is impractical in this setting because the ambient noise in a live, loud setting makes it hard to hear. And your amps are preset to a volume for the PA - if you change that you'll get a few dirty looks from the soundman.
5. In the middle of a set playing live & loud, your ears lose their sensitivity. The subtleties of 2-4 cents can be lost. I've had this happen and it's really frustrating to know you're out of tune and not know 'where'.

Re:I wonder...

[poot_rootbeer]

Can a computer really tune to the level that they can hear it needs to be tuned to for them?

Computers can tune a lot MORE ACCURATELY than even the average pro musician can, but that doesn't necessarily mean BETTER.

Playing some notes just a few Hertz out of "correct" tuning can add a lot of expressiveness. In some genres (think blues), it's rather bland to just play the correct pitches of the scale.

(And this isn't even addressing what "correct" tuning is -- 12-tone equal temperament has been the gold standard for a couple hundred years now, but it's really just a compromise between convenience and harmonic purity -- the fifths are slightly flat and the thirds slightly sharp compared to their pure hamonic counterparts...)

Re:I wonder...

[kinnell]

And before you make a comment about it, learn a little more about the topic.

If I hadn't made that comment, I would not have heard of temperament, alternative tuning systems, or a host of other interesting musical facts. If you want to read nothing but comments from experts, you're in the wrong forum.

Re:I wonder...

[bl8n8r]

It's also a mess trying to play with 3 others who have also "tuned by ear". A little bit off 3 different ways makes your ears want to vomit. This gizmo has same great potential! And entire band dropping to a preset tuning in the middle of a song would be cool!!!

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

We are all so terribly impressed by your absolute pitch! I hope you post several more times in this story about it!

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

But being a fretted instrument, the guitar will always be wrong no matter what you do. It can only be right in a few circumstances just like a keyboard. It's true that tuning is more than just a science but it isn't just temperment.

A bigger issue is that all instruments have tuning issues that vary and the best way to tune in an ensemble is dependent on the instruments you have. A standard "A" is is not simply 440 except when you take it off a tuning fork. Symphony tuning is typically closer to 442 except when performing with piano (where they take it from the keyboard). Different styles of music are accustomed to different standards for pitch as well. Wind instruments go sharp as they heat up while strings go flat. Have you ever had to perform with a pipe organ in an unheated building?

Anyone who thinks you can get perfect tuning by pushing a button knows little about our musical heritage or about real performance. Look where we are today. Most popular music is increasingly not performed at all.

Re:I wonder...

[Richy_T]

Unless the tunings are made up on the fly, it is still a science. The creation of the various tunings was an art but now that the parameters are know, defined and standardised, matching an instrument to them is a science.

Rich

Re:I wonder...

[grendel20]

What happens if it overtunes or something like that. Has anyone here ever had a guitar string snap in their face from overtension?? Not fun...

Re:I wonder...

[gymell]

If I hadn't made that comment, I would not have heard of temperament,

You are right, I apologize for my snippy remark.

Re:I wonder...

[WWWWolf]

Tuning by eye, however, is something else entirely. It is an obscure talent that I've only seen demonstrated once.

Just like one of my friends. He'd come with other guys to play games on the C64, bring the tapes... ask for the screwdriver... I hit Load, he tunes the read head for a second, "Right... there"... and it loads perfectly.

I'm a floppy drive fan. I never got a good hang of how to tune the azimuth of the tape drive, the only way I do it today is by trial and error, and some games I have still don't load. Could anyone possibly tune the thing right every time in two seconds? Be one with the tape drive? Bullshit. But when I saw it, I had to believe it.

These people with such extraordinary Tuning Talent shoud be honored.

Re:I wonder...

[AaronGTurner]

Guitarists are already using it, notably Jimmy Page.

Jimmy Page

[debilo]

For those who don't know, Jimmy Page was the guitarist for Led Zeppelin. While he doesn't have the best technique when it comes to playing the guitar, he really really does have a grasp of melodies. He's a genius, you'd better listen to that guy. :)

Re:Jimmy Page

[maduro55]

You question Jimmy's techinque, how dare you. I dare say that you suck pond water.

Re:Jimmy Page

[mtrupe]

If anyone doesn't know who Jimmy Page is, please post your address so I can come smack you.

Re:Jimmy Page

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

Quoth Homer:
"You can see everything from here! There's Big Ben, there's Picadilly Circus, and there's Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of American Black Music who ever lived!"

Re:Jimmy Page

[prisoner]

I hesitate to question Homer but I thought the biggest thief was Elvis....

Re:Jimmy Page

[Short Circuit]

short.circuit@grnet.com

Re:Jimmy Page

[eggoeater]

I agree...some people listen to some of his solo lines and think "that sounds sloppy." True. But they kept it because it had feeling. If there's any doubt about his ability to play FLAWLESSLY, just listen to Bron-Yr-Aur, which is played in an ALTERNATE TUNING!!! I tried to learn it once.... I gave up. Too hard. (...and I use to be able to play most Van Halen stuff.)
Jimmy Page is an amazing guitar player.
-Steve
-----
This Sig best viewed in a drunken stupor.

Re:Jimmy Page

[Walrus99]

Was that the same Homer who wrote "Tales of Brave Ulysses"?

I love the line, "Tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers." Great guitar riff too.

Re:Jimmy Page

[emammal]

Obligatory Beastie Boys reference:

"If I played guitar, I'd be Jimmy Page
The girlies I like are underage."

/nothin against Mr Page; just saying ...

Re:Jimmy Page

[zephc]

Sounds more like a Pete Townshend thing...

Re:Jimmy Page

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe, at least Page and Plant threw in a little nauseating English folk whimsy into the mix.

but then they deal steal The Lemon Song and then credited it to themseleves as writers.
Elvis never claimed authorship on other people's stuff.

Re:Jimmy Page

[roman_mir]

Don't know, don't care, not interested, don't listen to music.

Bite me.

Re:Jimmy Page

[Anonymous Coward]

You can contact me at darl@sco.com

Re:Jimmy Page

[randomblast]

sh, listen...
hear that?
it's them, they're coming for you
they're gonna lock you away until you have been educated :p

Re:Jimmy Page

[UncleGizmo]

I don't know if you got the correct tuning for Bron-y-Aur, but it makes all the difference. He uses a drop-C tuning, but doesn't tune down the A string [from memory, I believe it's C-A-C-G-C-E]. I could never play it until I figured that out!

I still can't play it smoothly like Jimmy, but it's guaranteed to break the ice at parties!

Re:Jimmy Page

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Elvis was WHITE???

Re:Jimmy Page

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the biggest thief of Black music is Pat Boone, who would rip off songs note for note and word for word without attribution or renumeration.

Worried

[physicsboy500]

now I don't have to be concerned that I'm putting to much tension on my G-string... phew!

Re:Worried

[thelasttemptation]

I'm more worried that physic's boy 500 has a g-string...

Re:Worried

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, it was just recently Valentine's Day. Why are you still tensioning your G string yourself?

Re:Worried

[jcgf]

now I don't have to be concerned that I'm putting to much tension on my G-string... phew!

I've always found that you never had to worry till it got up to about an A sharp or a B. If your only up to a G sharp or an A natural your still safe from the G-string snapping ;)

Jared

"But will it auto tuna fish ?"

[Onan The Librarian]

Well, someone was going to say it...

Re:"But will it auto tuna fish ?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, are you behind the times! Haven't you heard? You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish.

A Nony Mouse

Re:"But will it auto tuna fish ?"

[ch-chuck]

yes, you can tuna fish. Indeed, most tuna fish consumed comes from cans.

Cool, but

[dreamchaser]

This is really cool. However, maybe I'm showing my age here in that I'm not sure I really like the idea. I've been playing for 25 years (since I was 12) and IMHO a huge part of learning to play is developing a good ear and being able to tune your instrument by hand. I never cared for electronic tuners for the same reason.

That being said, since I *can* tune by ear, I probably wouldn't mind the convenience of being able to 'dial in' whatever tuning I want.

Let's just make sure that newbs learn things right before you let them have one of these ;-)

Re:Cool, but

[cozziewozzie]

Tuning by ear is great, if you're playing for yourself. If, however, you are playing with others, it takes quite a while to get all of you in tune, and you usually get out of tune by the end of the first song. Especially if you rehearse daily and play live often, it can become a pain.

I agree that developing a good ear is important, but when you're paying huge $$$ for the rehearsal room, or have 300 people listening to you, you don't want to spend half of your time tuning your guitar. It's something all guitar players can do by ear, but shouldn't have to keep doing it over and over again.

Re:Cool, but

[mtrupe]

Yeah, just like all the green-ass programming students are still learning assembly before writing crappy programs in VB. Err, wait a minute...

Re:Cool, but

[SlashDread]

Not be be pompous or anything, but if have to -learn- to be in tune*, please do not play for anybody else then yourself.

If you have not learned it by the time you can sing "Happy Birthday" you should probably not bother at all.

"/Dread"
* "In tune", not "In absolute tune"

Re:Cool, but

[dreamchaser]

Well that was pompus. I wasn't referring to knowing what in tune is, I was referring to the act of tuning a guitar. Yes, to an extent having a good ear is an innate talent, but one still has to learn how to do the various tunings when learning how to play guitar.

Do you actually play guitar? If so then I'm surprised at your comment.

Re:Cool, but

[SlashDread]

If you can whistle in tune, you can tune a guitar.

Yes. I do play the guitar. Tuning your guitar will not teach you to tune. -listening- and singing (or fiddling with the knobs) will teach you that.

I actually think tuning is very easy for 95% of the populous. Most kids age 10 can do it flawlessly, if they sing regulary.

I allege giving a ground key, and some knobs, this 95% of all people can tune anything. There is nothing magically that needs to be learned, other then the half-note interval "feel".

Ok, I -was- pompous ;-) sorry about that.

"/Dread"

Re:Cool, but

[bluGill]

Very few people who tune by ear get the same tuning. Electronic tuners are sometimes better called electronic arbitrators, because when two guys start arguing about tuning (I've see this happen) you pull out the electronic device and use that as a compromise that will work.

If there is only one person who cares about tuning, give him your insterment, let him tune by ear and enjoy it. There are compromises in tuning, and the by ear guy normally has a different compromise in mind.

The only way to get a perfect tuning is to have one string for each note, but remember that a note flat is not the same as the next note down sharp, making for 30+ strings in one scale, something few could deal with. (unless you have a fretless insterment in which case you can do these sharps and flats by ear)

Re:Cool, but

[Dr. Smeegee]

SlashDread, Dreamchaser, we need to talk... You fellows just behaved like mature adults when you could have spat childish invective at one another for at *least* 6 more posts.

I want you two to go think about this seperately and come back when you have developed a more belligerent and cranky attitude and can live up to the standards of "flattus discourse" that Slashdot has established.

Okay?

Re:Cool, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's just make sure that newbs learn things right before you let them have one of these ;-)

I said the same thing when the electronic calculator came out and I had to shelf by slide rule.

Just what we need

[AlgoRhythm]

well my first reaction was "Great! More tone deaf 'musicians' who can't even tune thier own guitars ... at least they'll just suck instead of also being out of tune."

But then I remembered I fellow I used to play with who was enamoured with oddball tunings. I would have loved to get him one of these, because he had to change tunings so often that the audience would get bored in between songs. Wouldn't have been so bad if the guy had had a pesonality to keep them entertained with ... guess that's why I USED to play with him.

Re:Just what we need

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to play gigs, you should invest in a separate guitar for each distinct tuning you use. Then you just pick up, say, your DADGAD guitar, which your roadie, associate, friend, secretary, or monkey has graciously tuned for you while you were playing a different guitar, and go at it.

Hmmm

[pHatidic]

Take a look under the testimonials section...Used by the band "Paul Allen and the Microsofts"??? I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but /.'ers believe you me, its an omen. This thing must someone be evil.

Re:Hmmm

[thelasttemptation]

Nah, they'll never make it big with that name. Bands should apeal to the ladies, not make them double over in laughter :P

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

paul allen likes to play the guitar. he is on the list since he is kind of famous, being the 3rd richest guy on the planet or whatnot. bad omen though

Professionals only, please

[The Fun Guy]

The FAQ says it costs about $4000 to retrofit it onto your guitar. This is not for your average guy who plucks a bit on the weekends.

Re:Professionals only, please

[millahtime]

"This is not for your average guy who plucks a bit on the weekends."

Would a professional want a computer tuning his guitar for him, or would he be so paticular that he would want to do it himself?

Re:Professionals only, please

[Sirch]

This is not for your average guy who plucks a bit on the weekends.

Bang goes most of the /. crowd.

I mean, they don't bang...

Damn.

Re:Professionals only, please

[ageitgey]

Most professionals (who make any sort of real income playing) have roadies who tune their guitars for them. That way they can have the roadie tune an extra guitar between songs and they can switch for the next song without delaying the show.

I think a lot of guitarists think of tuning as an annoyance, much like setting up amps and monitors. That being said, it's still cheaper and more efficient to buy 4 guitars for a thousand dollars each and have them tuned up for different songs than to spend 4000 on retrofitting a one thousand dollar guitar unless you change tunings during the song.

As anyone who has seen Jimmy Page live in the last 8 years or so can tell you, he uses the auto-tuner to change tunings in the middle of the song and even uses contant tuning changing as an "effect". Some of his effects would be otherwise impossible to create live.

Re:Professionals only, please

[Jon_E]

I believe this is mostly for alternate tunings and such .. would have been interesting to see what Michael Hedges would have said about it, if he was still alive. He did a lot of work with a manual version of something like this.

What I don't understand is why not simply put a frequency modulator between the pickup and the output? They're all electric guitars, and it seems a lot simpler than retensioning the strings over and over again. This could be acheivable as a postprocessing footswitch instead of a guitar mod .. must be a pain to keep the motors properly calibrated, unless you have a feedback loop into a modifiable self-tuner.

Re:Professionals only, please

[nanode]

For $4000 I could get enough extra guitars to cover all the alternate tunings I'd use:

standard
down 1/2 step (Ala Jerry Cantrell)
open G (slide)

Drop D is hardly worth a spare guitar. If you can't drop your Big-E a whole step by ear in a matter of seconds, you most certainly don't have a $4000 guitar budget.

Accurate within two cents?

[mtrupe]

Big deal- I'll tune it myself. Whenever I need to tune its usually because I am less than 2 cents out of tune anyway (unless my guitar has been re-strung or not played in a while).

Besides, who would want that big nasty thing on a Beautiful Taylor, Les Paul, or Strat? Its a cool toy, but I don't see much use for performers.

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whenever I need to tune its usually because I am less than 2 cents out of tune anyway

Yeah right. With that sentence you just proved that you've never even touched a guitar before in your entire life. Stop wasting the nice mods points.

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[Anonymous Coward]

uhhh... ok. Or maybe my guitar is just nicer than yours and doesn't fall out of tune as easily.

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[fsharp]

Thank You! I wouldn't deface my Tele or Strat with that thing.

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, a luvley les paul custom with those horrid buttons and what "looks" like a steinberger tremelo system throwback aint my idea of something i'd want on a valueble vintage instrument.

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whenever I need to tune its usually because I am less than 2 cents out of tune anyway

Why do you want to be more than 2 cents out of tune?

Re:Accurate within two cents?

[Anonymous Coward]

My wording wasn't too good--- usually I am not out of tune by more than two cents from regular playing.

Been there, done that

[NYTrojan]

Some friends of mine made one of these for a project in college. Check it out here.

http://www.ce.rit.edu/projects/srprojects/2003.1 /r t_egaft/

I don't know about how effective the tuner is....

[Eevee]

But the site sucks big time. Nothing like having to constantly scroll in a tiny window when the rest of my display is going to waste to make me want to buy a product.

Of course, the site is designed with the artiste in mind, which means looking good is more important than actually being good.

Time to move on

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that just anyone can tune a guitar, I guess I have to find something more elite...

Re:Time to move on

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of a great joke:

How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?

10. 1 to change it, and the other 9 to say "I can do that, but I don't want to."

Kind of interesting

[ScottGant]

I can understand maybe with people just starting out in learning the guitar, but with someone that knows how to tune a guitar, and having a guitar that stays in tune (ie, don't buy cheap crap), is important. But learning to tune the guitar by ear is part of the learning process.

Well, perhaps as the strings age the guitar can compensate for that I suppose...but I use Elixers on my Martin and they last a good month before they need changing.

Ah, also forgot, if you're into alternate tunings this would be a quick way to switch them around without having 5 different guitars all tuned differently.

Also, in case you haven't check it out yet, go buy the Led Zeppelin DVD that was released last year. You'll see why Zeppelin ruled the stage in their day. Much better than the lack-luster "Song Remains the Same" performance we were stuck with for so long. I actually saw them in concert in May of 1977 in Maryland, and they were MUCH better than that movie. This new DVD shows this, and without all the silly acting parts (remember Jimmy Page's eyes glowing red?).

Re:Kind of interesting

[viracochas]

Come on! The bad acting is part of the magic of Song Remains the Same. And without it Spinal Tap just wouldn't have been the same...

Re:Kind of interesting

[prisoner]

You saw Zeppelin and you remember it? You lucky bastard.

Re:Kind of interesting

[ScottGant]

you know, this is true really. But you have to be in the mood for that. When I want to see a performance I would watch the Zeppelin DVD, but to get a good laugh watch the Song Remains the Same.

The backstage parts with Peter Grant are pretty funny too.

Re:Kind of interesting

[cozziewozzie]

I can understand maybe with people just starting out in learning the guitar, but with someone that knows how to tune a guitar, and having a guitar that stays in tune (ie, don't buy cheap crap), is important. But learning to tune the guitar by ear is part of the learning process.

The tuning of your guitar depends on many factors, and only one of them is the quality of the guitar. For example:

- How often and how hard you bend
- How hard you bang your guitar while you play (blues vs. punk)
- The gauge of the strings
- How fresh/old the strings are
- Use a tremolo/whammy bar? Things go way out of tune with those.
- Retune your guitar often for alternate tunings? This can also affect the stability of the strings
- Alternative playing methods, a la Sonic Youth (playing with drumsticks etc)

For some people, it is easy to stay in tune. For others, tuning between each song is a must, even with really good equipment.

Re:Kind of interesting

[Junks Jerzey]

can understand maybe with people just starting out in learning the guitar, but with someone that knows how to tune a guitar, and having a guitar that stays in tune (ie, don't buy cheap crap), is important. But learning to tune the guitar by ear is part of the learning process.

No, sorry. I attempted to learn the guitar years ago, before I knew about those nifty little $20 chromatic tuners with LCD displays, and I was frustrated as hell. It's the *new* players who need tuners. I would have given up completely, had I not started using a chromatic tuner. And now, after years of using one, I can immediately tell when a string is out of tune and get it back by ear.

These things are a godsend.

Re:Kind of interesting

[ScottGant]

Yes yes yes...I know this. But the gist of what I was saying is to learn to do it by ear. It's part of the learning process. Buying cheap crap that goes out of tune just sitting there (trust me, I had one of these before) is one of the problems, along with those you mentioned.

But this bridge is geared more for people that use different alternate tunings on the fly instead of having 5 different guitars tuned differently.

But, as you said, retuning your guitar does affect the strings...so I wonder how much shorter the life is on the strings using this bridge?

Re:Kind of interesting

[Walrus99]

I saw "The Song Remains the Same" in '77 the first time I got really stoned. I've never been the same since seeing Jimmy's eyes glowing red and merging into the whole universe.

Re:Kind of interesting

[Quobobo]

Speaking of Sonic Youth, this would be incredibly useful for them. Check this Sonic Youth Tuning Guide out and tell me that they're not insane.

Re:Kind of interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

> Use a tremolo/whammy bar? Things go way out of tune with those.

This can be fixed by learning how to string your guitar properly. Another lost art, so to speak.

Re:Kind of interesting

[jred]

They're not insane. :)

I particularly like the songs w/ a "?" where the tuning info should go...

Re:Kind of interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

>>This can be fixed by learning how to string your guitar properly. Another lost art, so to speak.

yeah and learning what 'tremolo' means.

Why rock guitarists still think it means the same thing as vibrato is beyond me.

Bridge

[debilo]

Hello, don't hate me for it, but I followed the link and read the story. Seems like the bridge is replaced by motors that tune the guitar by moving the bridge slightly, thus increasing or lowering the string tension. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one like my strings in a fixed position from the frets. I want the distance between the strings and the frets as small as possible. Does anyone else see a problem with that, since moving the bridge alters that distance? Or do you think those movements would be so subtle that one could hardly tell there was a movement at all?

Re:Bridge

[mtrupe]

I thought about this too. Before following the link I was somewhat expecting to see something attached to the headstock.

"My action is 1 inch, but the guitar is in perfect tune!!!"

Re:Bridge

[SoTuA]

If they are to affect the tuning, they should be more like "lengthening or shortening the string" that "raising or lowering the string". The effects on string action(*) should be negligible... of course, this assumes you have your guitar mostly in tune, as if you are grossly out of tune you will need BIG bridge movements to compensate.

(*)action: Shortest distance from the strings to the fingerboard.

Re:Bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

no. watch the video - the bridge is not affected. the action and the intonation is dictated by the bridge, which stays put. the motors act on where the strings are fixed in the back, pretty much like on a Floyd Rose-type locking whammy bar bridge...

Re:Bridge

[back_pages]

I haven't read the article, but changing the length of the string is forbidden. While you can change the pitch of the open string this way, you guarantee that every single fret will be out of tune. The 12th fret MUST be at EXACTLY the halfway point from the nut to the bridge. This makes tuning by moving the bridge a useless method of autotuning.

Re:Bridge

[IainMH]

Action. The distance between the strings and the frets is called the action.

Personally I think this is a crap idea.

Just buy more guitars. They'll be something to flog on ebay when the career starts to wain.

Re:Bridge

[matthaney]

"Seems like the bridge is replaced by motors that tune the guitar by moving the bridge slightly, thus increasing or lowering the string tension."

I'm not sure that's how it works - moving the bridge would be a Bad Thing, as it would screw up intonation or action (or both - eww).

Now I'm guessing a bit here, as the site is a bit light on actual details (I'd wanna know more before sending them my $4k AND my beloved guitar), but it seems to me like an extra set of string tensioners are installed behind the bridge - like the fine tuners in a Floyd Rose bridge. Floyd Rose bridges generally work well - this should too.

$4k is a lot of money though... That buys an awful lot of guitar. With change left over for a roadie's pay for a few years ;-)

Re:Bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the intonation is controlled by the length of the string, the action by the height of the bridge. This thing alters neither of these but works by altering the tension in the string. Since the frequency of oscillation is determined by string length and tension you can change the note without effecting intonation. In fact, this is exactly how standard tuning pegs work.

Re:Bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

The faq was a bit murky, but it says that they customize the tuner to how you like your action. So it will always try to keep the length and height about the same.

Re:Bridge

[wrmrxxx]

Other posters have pointed out that this device doesn't change the action, but I think it would be good to be able to control that as well as tuning. When I change to open G tuning, it's often because I want to use a slide, and for this I prefer a much higher action.

In other news

[scatter_gather]

I have invented the self-playing guitar. In a fit of creative frenzy I have named it the CD!

Cannot tune by machine alone

[bodland]

Each guitar has it's quirks. Depending on the intonation the "b" string on a guitar needs to be tuned manytimes slightly flat to allow chords to ring true.

The human ear has a problem with "b". Even though the tuner may say it is perfectly in tune a simple "D" chord will sound awful.

Compensating bridges make up for this intonation problem but it is still not exact.

Automatic tuners may look cool but will go the way of locking nuts. Remember those locking nuts and big ass whammy bars forced on us by Eddie VanHalen in the 80's?

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[mjprobst]

Actually, the human ear has no problem with "B". The problem is that the 12 frets, or the 12 steps of the chromatic scale, stand for multiple notes. Bb is not the same as A#, and even any one of those notes actually stands for several other slightly different notes that fit with different chords in different keys.

It's all about equal temperament not matching the notes one really wants to use. Good guitarrists compensate slightly by stretching strings just a bit, but it still can't match the flexibility of a well-played fretless instrument. The 12 chromatic steps are just a convenient lie to prevent the necessity of over 30 notes per octave.

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[dogdaze]

As a guitarist for 30 years, a perfectly tuned guitar by electronic means (tuner,etc.) is not in tune. There are quirks here and there that need to be adjusted to reduce vibrations that are annoying to someone with a good ear. In actuallity, its a give and take situation where you tune the guitar to average out the flaws so that the guitar sounds "best" when you go up and down the neck - its an average. As soon as your press down a string, you induce a stretching of the string that affects the original tuning as it progresses up the neck.

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[the endless]

Actually, the human ear has no problem with "B". The problem is that the 12 frets, or the 12 steps of the chromatic scale, stand for multiple notes. Bb is not the same as A#, and even any one of those notes actually stands for several other slightly different notes that fit with different chords in different keys.

It's all about equal temperament not matching the notes one really wants to use. Good guitarrists compensate slightly by stretching strings just a bit, but it still can't match the flexibility of a well-played fretless instrument. The 12 chromatic steps are just a convenient lie to prevent the necessity of over 30 notes per octave.

If you can tell the difference between equal temperament and the "correct" temperament for the key you're playing in, then you've a better ear than me. There's only a very limited difference between the two (less than 1%, if memory serves).

Plus, equal temperament is a fricking godsend. Can you imagine having to retune a piano every time you needed to change key? Without equal temperament, every piece of piano music (and all other similarly-difficult-to-retune instruments) would pretty much have to pick a key and stay in it.

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[bluGill]

I can't normally tell the difference, but if you hit a chord in your alternate tuning that doesn't work, I can tell that, it sounds awful. The correct tuning does sound better for the chords it gets right though, but you really can only tell the difference in a side by side comparition.

Equal temperment isn't necessarily a godsend for the piano. Many old organs are not equal tempered, and Bach relyed on that for some of his masterpieces. However you must be aware of what is going on when you aren't in equal temperment and avoid the bad keys.

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[Anonymous Coward]

>> would pretty much have to pick a key and stay in it.

Wasn't all western music written this way (modal) up until the proliferation of the tempered scale? I seem to remember learning something like this in college, but memory is hazy.

IIRC, that's why Gregorian chant sounds somewhat alien to modern ears. It was all modal.

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[xoran99]

Each guitar has it's quirks. Depending on the intonation the "b" string on a guitar needs to be tuned manytimes slightly flat to allow chords to ring true.

Looks like someone needs to check the action on their B string...

Automatic tuners may look cool but will go the way of locking nuts. Remember those locking nuts and big ass whammy bars forced on us by Eddie VanHalen in the 80's?

Locking nuts and big ass whammy bars are still important to some... Steve Vai's and Joe Satriani's signature guitars still have those. Sweeeeeeet...

Re:Cannot tune by machine alone

[cybin]

This is a good point. The problem of instrument tuning has been around for centuries. Try tuning your guitar to perfect intervals using the open strings, then play a note on the 5th or 6th fret and you will notice it's a few cents off the same note on a newly-tuned piano.

As for the note "B" -- it's not that we have a problem with it - it's no different from any other note, and in fact, nobody called it "B" until at least the 15th Century if i remember my music history correctly.

The trouble is that in our tuning system we base everything around one interval being perfect, and everything else has to fall in line. That third between the 2nd and 3rd strings on the guitar screws up the ratios - that's why we want to tune it slightly sharp to tighten up the G chord.

Anyway, Wikipedia has a great entry on musical tuning, and if you want to read more about it, check out Temperament by Stuart Isacoff -- great read on the evolution of such things.

i teach bass....

[musikit]

and i meet students all the time that don't want to learn to tune because of digital tuners. i would imagine how "bad" music would sound when they can figure out they can just press a button to retune their guitar. people listen. you ear tune to train your ear.

Re:i teach bass....

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you listen. We use capital letters to train ourselves how to format writing correctly.

Re:i teach bass....

[wirehead_rick]

Well I play bass and the best lesson I ever learned was to tune my Bass without any reference tone at all (think the tone in your head, then tune to it. To master this skill you constantly check it later to see how close you were). Practicing this exercise over and over forces you to learn the "notes" and not the positions.

Now when I hear pop songs I can determine every bass note played without having to have a bass in my hands. I can then go and play the song (not perfectly, practice is _always_ necessary) reasonably close. I cna listen to other musicians play and jump in with the my Bass without having to hunt around for the positions to match the notes I "hear" in my head. It makes me a better bass player overall.

If you let your students get away with tuning with digital tuners you are doing them no good. You should take the bass out of their hands, manually de-tune it and force them to tune it by ear before every lesson you give. See how dependant they are on the digital tuner after 5 lessons.

In the long run you will make them better bass players for it.

Re:i teach bass....

[musikit]

If you let your students get away with tuning with digital tuners you are doing them no good. You should take the bass out of their hands, manually de-tune it and force them to tune it by ear before every lesson you give. See how dependant they are on the digital tuner after 5 lessons.

nice idea. i WILL do this. thxs.

Re:i teach bass....

[nfotxn]

I can't agree more. Many amateurs don't understand sound and how it works. They just wanna know how to slap and look cool.

Re:i teach bass....

[SpamJunkie]

This sounds like unreasonable resistance to change. I've read similar comments in this thread.

People say this kind of thing every time technology makes things easier for people. When it was released people thought the shopping cart was a crutch that would weaken people. The automatic transmission would make drivers worse. The truth is people are resistant to change.

Autotuning guitars will eventually become a standard feature and it will make guitars available to a wider audience. At the least, it will make new players give up less easily. I think that if that idea bothers you then you're probably not confident enough in your craft. Scared the legion of new players that can concentrate on melody instead of the mechanics of their instruments will steal your limelight? Sounds like it's time to brush up on your skills.

Re:i teach bass....

[musikit]

no im not afraid. as for the bass instructor thing i do follow the "those who can't teach" i know whats required for me to "break" into "industry" i just don't want to/can't fulfill the requirement. however if i can help those who want to learn get a jump start heck i'm willing to help out.

forgive the OT example but would trust a coder with only java experience to be able to debug memory management issues with C++?

people learn music for a variety of reasons
1. hobby
2. forced to by parents
3. immitate rock idol
4. money

if your in it for 4 though you better learn to tune your guitar properly and sight read and better get your ear trained otherwise you will go no where.

Re:i teach bass....

[quisph]

Autotuning guitars will eventually become a standard feature and it will make guitars available to a wider audience.

It will never become a standard feature, because it's two orders of magnitude more expensive than ordinary tuning pegs. The price will come down, but not by that much.

It will not make guitars available to a wider audience. No one gives up the guitar because it's too hard to tune. Tuning is easy, especially with electronic tuners. And beginners generally don't seem to care or notice that they're not in perfect tune anyway.

Hypothetically, if this did become a standard feature, it would probably discourage beginners, because a cheap starter instrument would suddenly be 5-10 times more expensive.

Re:i teach bass....

[SpamJunkie]

An automatic transmission increases the price of inexpensive cars about 10%. I think autotuners will eventually come down in price to a similar level, perhaps 20-50% of the cheapest guitars. Once they're reverse engineered and mass produced by Yamaha you'll see them everywhere.

I know people that are aware of their own tone-deafedness enough to never even pick up a guitar. Think of people too afraid to sing: some tone-deaf people will still sing a drunken karaoke song but many won't. Autotuning will be a comfort for people that feel the same about musical instruments.

Re:i teach bass....

[quisph]

An automatic transmission increases the price of inexpensive cars about 10%.

I could be wrong, but when automatic transmissions first hit the market, I doubt that they cost 20-40 times as much as a cheap new car. I don't think that this is a good analogy.

I think autotuners will eventually come down in price to a similar level, perhaps 20-50% of the cheapest guitars.

That's a pretty bold assertion. You're saying that this $4000 tech might some day cost as little as $20. I'll believe it when I see it.

I know people that are aware of their own tone-deafedness enough to never even pick up a guitar. Think of people too afraid to sing: some tone-deaf people will still sing a drunken karaoke song but many won't. Autotuning will be a comfort for people that feel the same about musical instruments.

This problem has already been solved by cheap electronic tuners, which are already available for 10% of the cost of the cheapest guitars. No matter how much the cost of autotuning comes down, electronic tuners will always be cheaper. They are simpler, they have no moving parts, you only need ONE of them to tune every guitar you own (and most other kinds of instruments, for that matter), and they've already been on the market for decades.

Again, autotuning will never be a standard feature. It is for professionals who need to retune or change tuning systems instantly. Not for beginners who can't be bothered to learn to tune by ear. The latter already have a better solution.

Re:i teach bass....

[wirehead_rick]

Again, autotuning will never be a standard feature.

Maybe. But the visions I see with this technology follows.

Forget the "please tune the guitar for me because I am not capable" scenario. Those afflicted with this condition will never buy this kind of technology. That is what the $5.99 Korg meter tuner is for.

This will hit the guitar playing professional demographic like the electric pickup and Marshall stack did. I mean come on. Look at the artistic possibilitis with this technology. It by itself seems like just a guitar tuner. . . but what it is . . . is an enabler of artistic expression. Especially for live performances.

Changing tunings in the middle of a song is amazing to me. The ability to control tonality and "sound" itself will revolutionize the guitar. In the hands of a true creative mind, I cannot fathom the magical and interesting music we may yet be able to hear.

Next on the list is maybe a Piano? Or a Harp? Any stringed instrument could benefit from this.

One thing is certain, others will follow. The possibilities for sin-offs of this concept seem unlimited to me. There may be cheaper implementations, whatever. But the price should definitely come down as the popularity grows.

I think this is definitely exciting.

Re:i teach bass....

[Anonymous Coward]

Right.

Electric tuners are great, they let you spend all your time playing and less time futzing around.

If I had to tune by ear I would be playing with an out of tune guitar all the time.

Also note that just because you use an electronic tuner doesn't mean you're not training your ears. I can tell when I'm out of tune but I have a hard time getting it back into perfect tune.

Re:i teach bass....

[quisph]

I think this is definitely exciting.

Absolutely; I would love to have an autotuning guitar. I was just trying to explain that this isn't going to "make new players give up less easily" or some such nonsense.

Next on the list is maybe a Piano? Or a Harp? Any stringed instrument could benefit from this.

Well, yes and no. It seems much more useful for instruments with fingerboards, and fewer strings. Since a piano already has strings covering every chromatic pitch, I don't see a need for autotuning one on the fly unless you want to depart from the equal-tempered scale and get into something more avant-garde. Not many people have that need.

Also, just to stay in tune, a guitarist will need to retune several times during a single gig, whereas a piano can hold its intonation pretty well for months at a time. It would take a long time for most people to break even on an autotuner for your piano, compared to just paying a professional.

Interestingly, harps already have a limited kind of mechanical autotuning, by means of foot pedals. So again, this technology would probably not confer much benefit to a harpist beyond just keeping in tune, or avant-garde stuff.

I think an auto-tuning mandolin would be very cool... Or a dulcimer, so that you could change the drone pitch on the fly.

Seems interesting... but...

[OctobrX]

On the surface it seems like something that's quite cool. But to be honest, most people simply play stuff live either half-a-step down or in drop D. Sure, there are other bizzarre tunings out there that are really cool to play in, but that's why most guitarist are also guitar collectors and like to take at least a few of them with them even while simply playing at local shows...

This seems like a cool thing, but all it all I doubt seriously it'll catch on. Plus, I can't can't see anyone who can afford a $2k(US)+ guitar taking a chance at killing its resale value by doing this mod.

From their FAQ: Some wood is removed and replaced with the computer and mechanical device.

Re:Seems interesting... but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go listen to some Hawaiian guitar. They use different open tunings for every song. Most islanders developed a variety of open tunings rather than stick with the cacophonous sound of strumming a european tuned guitar with no frets held. Hawaii is a pretty big country, so there's a lot of people who play Hawaiian guitar.

Though I don't know many people who play traditional music on electric guitars. Maybe it would work on a dobro.

Not New(s)

[Joel Carr]

Interesting, yes, but certainly in no way shape or form a new or original idea. A quick google search shows this to be the case. Also a friend of mine has just come up with exactly the same idea for his final year engineering project...

Cool stuff, but news? meh...

---

These aren't new

[samsmithnz]

These have been around since the 80's... The only difference is that now they can be lifted by a 'normal' man now that electronics have become so much smaller...

People...

[ProudClod]

Don't seem to understand what this product is for. It's not for tonedeaf idiots who can't tune a guitar.

It's for professionals, who want to expand their sound by being able to change tuning midsong and at a rate of a tone a second, so that you can get effects and changes in sound that are impossible on a normal guitar tuning headstock (believe me, I just tried to emulate this video with my guitar: http://www.selftuning.com/video/video.html )

I think the price tag of 3300$-3899$ says it all really.

Re:People...

[SoTuA]

I wonder how sudden are the tuning changes. For basses there are this funny contraptions called "d-tuners" or "xtenders" (there are guitar ones too) that permit you to have two different tunings for a string at the flick of a switch. Used mostly to provide a little more range (the usual is dropping your E string to D), some people use it with amazing results. That guy flicks tunings like it's nothing, some songs containing over five or six different tunings.

(No, it's not a gay porn page. It's Michael Manring's, bassist extraordinarie, homepage :)

Re:People...

[ProudClod]

The video in the parent has a person playing the guitar, shifting tuning whilst playing.

Re:People...

[Pakaran2]

Read my other comments on this article, since I'm tempted to repeat most of them.

What's needed is not just people who know how to tune. It's people tuning to some kind of accurate reference - which means NOT the entire band tuning to one instrument, ESPECIALLY a piano that was last tuned in the Clinton administration.

Granted, that's more of a problem with orchestras - but there's some people out there with really poor tuning ability, or who think that deliberate mistuning makes their stuff more "interesting."

Re:People...

[prockcore]

so that you can get effects and changes in sound that are impossible on a normal guitar tuning headstock

It's not impossible, just really really hard. I saw Adrian Legg open for 3G, he would hit a note and while it's ringing, change the tuning of his guitar. The result is what sounds like an impossible bend on an acoustic guitar.

How about Just Intonation?

[dogen]

Cool> But what the guitar world REALLY needs is a simple system to implement JUST INTONATION.

Yes, I DO remember....

[UrGeek]

...the locking nut whammy bar. The best invention since the electromagnetic pickup! Floyd Rose is a genius!

Bluetooth support?

[CaptainAlbert]

So, how long before they add wireless networking support? The studio techs could just sit behind the desk tweaking away... cool. ...until some kid in the audience h4XX0rs the lead guitarist mid-solo, I suppose. :)

Alternate Tuning

[Anonymous Coward]

This makes alternate tuning alot easier, where before you basically needed a guitar for each tuning, which is prohibitive for most people. Some bands that use alternate tunings alot are sonic youth, soundgarden, and of course, led zeppelin. Its a critical part of their sound, actually.

Re:Alternate Tuning

[hyc]

Hm... I remember watching Martin Carthy playing live, and he retuned between songs all the time. Took 30 seconds, maybe a minute, and he talked about the song the whole time. I think if you're going to mess around with tunings, you should just get adept at tuning. If you're not fast and accurate enough to do it by ear, you're probably not ready to be playing around with it...

Re:Alternate Tuning

[cozziewozzie]

That's why you take an extra guitar to a show if you want to swap tunings around.

Re:Alternate Tuning

[Anonymous Coward]

believe it or not, 30 seconds is probably too long to wait for a good stage show. And if you're like sonic youth, some of the tunings are so strange that it is going to take longer than 30 seconds. Once you change one string the other 5 need to checked over and over again and then you're intonation might get screwed...not that simple. I gave up a long time ago. Just stick with EADGBE

Re:Alternate Tuning

[erinacht]

>If you're not fast and accurate enough >to do it by ear, you're probably not >ready to be playing around with it...

Hmmm, yeah like Jimmy Page...

What's the problem with using this tech just because it exists and its easier than doing something manual yourself??

Concert Pitch Tuning is not an "art" in itself - it's just a necessary evil (that's why those fat guys who come on and do it at the start of a gig don't get paid much)

First I could tune a guitar by ear

[acomj]

First I could tune a guitar by ear,
then I got a tuner and could no longer tune by ear.

Now I've reached the next level and can no longer tune the guitar with the machine.

-Dave Mathews

And now all we need is

[namidim]

self tuning singers......

good idea... but not on my guitar

[deviantonline]

while the idea is good, why does it have to look so ugly?

I hate having to tune my guitar all the time, but I really could not see myself ever wanting a guitar that looked that bad!

Couldnt they have concealed the tuning buttons a little better, and that crazy tuning bridge thing is just too ugly and out of place. Too bad, because this is a really good idea.

Re:good idea... but not on my guitar

[ScottGant]

Agreed. Also, you notice that their all electric guitars.

No WAY would I muddy up my beautiful Martin with one of these things...not that it would work since the sound goes through the bridge to the top to get the tone.

But then again, a plus in the acoustic guitars favor. You just pick it up and play it. No batteries, no electricity needed. Could be marooned on an island and still play it.

hello /.'ed

[vrtladept]

Site has quicktime movies .. this is gonna hurt.

Built in tuner

[eggoeater]

Back in 1988 I pulled the guts out of a sabine tuner and built it into my Ibanez guitar. I had the Sharp/Flat/In-Tune LEDs on the front of the pick plate and the rest of the 12 leds on the back of the guitar.
A guy I knew who was more of an engineer than I suggested hooking up a small moter(s) to the fine tune of the floating bridge to have to sharp/flat signals turn the little screws and automatically put it in tune.
I'm surprised it took this long to come out with an autotune guitar.
Just make sure the auto-tune doesn't kick in when you hit the whammy bar!
-Steve
------
This sig best viewd in a drunken stupor

Stavinsky's comments...

[Threni]

...about harpists seem somewhat appropriate here:

"Harpists spend 90 percent of their lives tuning their harps, and 10 percent playing out of tune".

Guitarist's are traditionalists

[goatan]

this is unlikley to be popular Most guitarists are traditionalists valves are our main preference whilst transistors are devil spawn in an amp.

The only people likley to buy this are those who use a lot of diffrent tunnings in performance, but then they have to weight this against the likley reduction in the guitar's worth. I dont' think it would be worth forking out money to reduce the value of your pride and joy it might be the sort of thing i would put into my epiphone but never my strat. Didn't see a price on the site but some one mentiond $4000 at that price you could buy 3-4 gibson les pauls or 2 cornford hellcat amps, when compared to that it's not value for money at all. This isn't going to be worth it for the majority of players who use just one or two tunnings as you can get electric tuners for 5 that tune just as accuratley if not more so.

I can see this being right up jimmy page's street but it's not going sell big.

Re:Guitarist's are traditionalists

[goatan]

Slight revison to the above studios are more likley to buy this for session work than induviduals

Hernia...

[man2525]

Wow, between a 15 pound Les Paul, active pickups with 9 volt batteries, wireless receiver with batteries, and one of these devices, also with batteries, you could jump off an amp and go right through the stage floor...amazing.

It's funny to hear him speak.

[rjamestaylor]

It's funnier to see you guys write!

There's a problem here...

[PurdueGraphicsMan]

What about the fact that it's not good to use radically different tunings on one guitar? It's horrible for the integrity of the neck and the headstock. Not to mention the contraption is hella-ugly and totally detracts from the inherent sexiness of the guitar.

This isn't new

[c4miles]

You can hear Jimmy using a transperformance system to retune his guitar mid-song on the eponymous collaboration album "Coverdale Page".

Not sure if this is an update, but that album was released in 1993.

Jimi Hendrix Tuning Quote

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

While Jimi was playing one of his strings came undone:

Jimi: wow, the string just flipped of the thing up here. So let us pretend that there aint no things, therefore the strings will not flip off.

From one of the 'live' albums I heard many moon ago

Re:Jimi Hendrix Tuning Quote

[BobWeiner]

Let's not forget Jimi's other quote:
"Only cowboys want to stay in tune anyway."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must be on my way...

Bob

Defacing the guitar...

[mtrupe]

Putting one of these things on a nice guitar is like putting a bumper sticker on a 1965 Shelby Cobra--- its vandalism at its worst!

Putting one of these things on your crappy guitar (Squire Strat, for example) is like when those stupid teenagers put spoilers on the back of their front wheel drive Dodge Neon-- it just shows that you are clueless.

Of course, at $4000 a pop, I'm not sure who they are marketing to.

Re:Defacing the guitar...

[Queuetue]

I suspect the target market is professionals who need to change tunings rapidly without stopping the show, buying more guitars or hiring a flunky.

Those pros probably don't care about how "cool" it is to use it, they see it from a cost/perfomance standpoint.

Well - impressive, but...

[nicodietrich]

their promotion material sucks.

The "Watch out how our system works" movies shows the LCD meanwhile hearing a chord. It looks good, but what you see is not what your hear! You hear the chords shown on the LCD always with a delay of 10s, so you hear a different chord than you see...

I think like that they won't get any professional musicians buying that thing. Although it's cool!

use relative tuning

[ScottGant]

This is taken from http://www.wholenote.com/

The main thing to understand about relative tuning is that a guitar can be in tune with itself, but not necessarily be in tune with another instrument, such as a piano. The low string on a guitar (i.e. 6th string) corresponds with the note 'E', and there is an absolute, known pitch and frequency associated with this note. However, if your 6th string is not exactly this pitch, it's not a big deal unless you're going to be jamming with a piano player or someone playing an instrument that isn't easily tunable. In fact, many bands don't tune to the exact frequency of an 'E'. They just tune to an 'E' on somebody's guitar, and as long as they're in tune with other, everything sounds fine. For most beginners, it isn't particularly important to be tuned to the exact pitch of an 'E'.

This is what I use. After years of playing I can tell when something is sharp or flat...to a pretty good degree. Is it exact? Not according to a chromatic tuner...which may show the notes slightly sharp or slightly flat. But they're not whole notes out of place.

But everyone is different. What works great for you may not work great for me and vice versa.

clicky clicky

[Anonymous Coward]

"Some friends of mine made one of these for a project in college. Check it out here."

clicky clicky

moving the bridge?

[FlyingOrca]

I can see the effect on tension, all right, but wouldn't this also throw the intonation out?

OTOH, it'd be nice to be able to flip between different tunings I use (EADGBE, DADGBE, DADGAD, FACGCE) easily and quickly...

Believe it or not, it's neither a typo nor a joke

[blorg]

"In his spare time, billionaire Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) co-founder Paul G. Allen plays the guitar in a rock band called Grown Men." - BusinessWeek

"It's funny to hear him speak."

[rokka]

It's funny to hear him speak.
It's even more funny to hear him sing.

Its nothing new!

[flyneye]

this has been around for years.but no one wants any clunky retrofits on their headstock.no one wants to route out any more room in already crowded electronics cavities.
it also doesnt address the problem of using anything but standard tuning ,especially changing tuning on the fly.
i give it a 3
not for everyone.

Re:Its nothing new!

[flyneye]

ok my bad,it does have preset tunings.
its still ugly and its mama dresses it funny.

Very cool, but...

[CharAznable]

Seems like this system only makes sense if you design a guitar from the ground up with this in mind, cause I'm not hacking open a 59 Les Paul to put this in, and it's too damn expensive to put it in a $800 Standard Strat.

"automatic guitar tuning grants'

[TekZen]

The Nashville, TN (my home city) government should have a grant program to provide these for every street musician. There is nothing more detrimantal to our downtown commerce than all of the out-of-tune, drunk singer/songwriters playing on the street.

At least we can now fix the out-of-tune part!

I can see why, but it's ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes sense, but who wants an expensive guitar with vegematic buttons?

Nothing new

[why-is-it]

you push a button to activate a mechanical re-tensioning of the strings to any of a few hundred tunings, 'accurate to within 2 cents over the entire tuning range', in a couple of seconds. They can even refit your existing guitar.

Nothing new here folks. I saw ads for something like this in guitar magazines in the mid-90s (probably GFTPM.) Mind you, those ones could only be installed in a Les Paul, which seemed like sacrilege to me...

It gets better...

[blorg]

Paul Allen's band, Grown Men, have a website with mp3 (interestingly, not WMA) samples and lyrics, from their debut CD.

Finally, no more...

[kannibul]

Finally, no more idiots @ Guitar Center churning up badly played AC/DC and Metallica riffs, with the guitar way out of tune. That will at least make the visit 5% more enjoyable!
Now, only if we could tune the salespeople to actually learn more about what they are selling.

"I need a high-gain amp"

"Here, buy this Metal Zone pedal, turn off the mids, and crank everything else - it's like having a Marshall Stack in a pedal!"

Whateva~

Another reason why this is great for Jimmy Page...

[Savatte]

in part of the solo in Heartbreaker, he actually twists the tuning knobs, rather than changing frets. This auto tuning is really useful, since after the solo, he can press a button, and the guitar goes back into tune.

Ah, Praise be to Jeebus!

[Luckboy]

Oh, thankyouthankyouthankyou! With every student I've ever taught, the very first lesson is tuning, and nobody plays a note until that lesson is learned. Someday this might be affordable to 12 year olds and guitar teachers all over the world can stop tearing their hair out.

And someday this might be affordable enough that I can actually stand going into a club and checking out a local band without worrying just how amateur and out of tune they are.

And most importantly, I might actually be able to remember what really weird screwed up tuning my guitar was in when I wrote that really cool thing that doesn't make any sense anymore now that I'm back in standard tuning!

butterface guitar

[carpe_noctem]

Jesus, who designed this damn thing? It looks like someone glued a harmonica onto a les paul.

I like the idea of having embedded electronics in guitars, but when you get down to it, it's a really dumb idea. A guitar is a musical instrument, that can be played for years and years. A circuit board will be obsolete by next christmas.... why would you want to disgrace a 3,000$ guitar with some cheap silicon junk? Let the effects processors do the processing and tuning, and the guitar just play the damn music.

they didn't claim fp ph00l

[Anonymous Coward]

suck it down

acoustic modeling guitar

[Anonymous Coward]

on a related note, check out: http://line6.com/VariaxAcousticPreview/

it's got alternate tunings built into it ( so it says )

choir autotuner

[troon]

Such a device has already been proposed...

RTFA

[troon]

The device adjusts tension, not length.

Does the Performer affect intonation?

No. Intonation is altered by changes in string length. The Performer changes tunings by adjusting the tension of the strings while keeping the string length constant.

Tea Party

[TheTomcat]

The frontman for the tea party has had this for a while (dunno if it's exactly the same.. I was under the assumption that his was a custom job...)

Check out this, from the Discovery Channel (.ca) ("Jeff Martin on 'smart guitars'").

S

I know you meant to be funny, but...

[leonardop]

... you see, there are plenty of things to do for a roadie anyway.

There is a very interesting piece at kuro5hin which talks about all the work involved in the job...

Too easy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome our Self-tuning guitar overlords.

In Soviet Russia, guitars tune you!

Great...

[watertester]

More tone-deaf guitarists.

Also done on Tympani... perhaps...

[Bazman]

Drummer friend of mine worked on an auto-tympani tuner as his final-year student project, I think. Part of the problem was recognising the really low frequencies you get from tympani.

I'm not sure how far he got with the project.

Actually, I should probably call him a percussionist :)

It must be said ...

[Calydor]

In Soviet Russia ...
Guitars tune YOU!

... There goes my karma.

Holy $4!7 > $3000...

[skribble]

Cheaper to buy a few extra guitars

Antares pitch correctors

[Anonymous Coward]

An now all we need is self tuning singers

The good folks at Antares Audio Technologies have got you covered with both hardware devices and software plug-ins (for Pro Tools, CakeWalk, Nuendo, etc) that'll correct bad singer's pitch.

Sorry for the rant, but really!!!

[theolein]

Why even bother to buy a guitar and learn to play it if you can't tune it yourself? I find this pathetic, I'm sorry to say. Just buy a synthesizer and learn to play with that if you can't be bothered to learn to train your ear.

What ever happened to talent and skill?

Re:Sorry for the rant, but really!!!

[Queuetue]

I don't think this is a laziness device. I think it's intended as a retune-during-performance device, to dramtically increase a single guitar's playable range.

I'm reasonably sure that Jimmy Page knows how to tune a guitar.

Re:Sorry for the rant, but really!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm reasonably sure that Jimmy Page knows how to tune a guitar."

Just because a celebrity endorses a product, doesn't mean he actually uses that product. Well, some endorsements come with a contract, like athletes and shoe companies... But do you really believe Howard Stern has an Aiwa stereo? Or Mark Martin really uses Viagra (ok, so maybe :-)

Old News

[kin_korn_karn]

Gibson tried to do this in the 50's. That's why the bridge that's found on most of their electric guitars is still called a "tune-o-matic" bridge - they had a prototype device that automatically kept a guitar in tune but the tech of the day made it impractical.

yvan eht nioj

[Anonymous Coward]

In case someone doesn't know: Parent is referring to episode CABF12

Hah! I know these guys.

[Frennzy]

These guys have been at this since the late 80's/early 90's. If you look at the reviews section, you'll see Dave Beegle from Fourth Estate. I used to work at a pizza joint in Fort Collins, and the manager would always encourage us to go around and see that band...they were friends. One of my friends at the time invested quite a bit of money into the guitar (which Dave Beegle designed/co designed, IIRC)

That'd wreck your head when using open tuning.

[dwalsh]

1. O.k. tune up the 4th and 5th strings...

2. What the?

3. Goto 1.

4. Profit!!!

pseudocode compiler: Warning, unreachable code.

$3400?

[jackstand]

I'd just buy 3 or 4 new guitars.

why retension the strings?

[trb]

why not just keep the strings at one tension and alter the tunings by processing the output wave forms? this would be simpler, and electric guitarists already run their signals through other effects boxes. (i'm not a guitarist or a signals engineer, i'm just curious.)

Re:why retension the strings?

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason is, the theoretical perfect tuning does not actually render a musically correct scale.

Tuning is always a compromise. You cannot simply tune each string on a piano or a guitar in isolation, and expect the end result to be musical.

Even a guitar whose intonation is "correct" at the best tolerances possible, requires a compromise of tuning. Sure there are guitars that are setup well enough that you don't have to tune differently to play in D as to play in Bb.

This problem was known to the ancient Greeks; but their solution appears to have been to "do without" the dissonant intervals. Music composed in the Baroque period addressed the problem in several ways. Clavichords and harpsichords were usually tuned to sound good in several keys, there's a pattern to which keys sound dissonant, there were a few different "temperaments" that were well-accepted, especially for organ tuning.
The beginnings of "well-tempered" instruments roughly marks the end of the Baroque period and the beginning of what might be called "Classical".
Well-tempered instruments have the compromise of intonation that we think of as "correct" today.
I'll save the differences of Werkmeister, Kirnberger, Pythagorean, Equal-, and Well- temperament for a theory class lecture.

Can you digitize the parameters of well-temperament? Of course. But what's "correct" when you measure the waveform of a single string stopped at a given length, is not going to be correct at every stop along its length, or in harmonic combination with all the other strings on the instrument. So maybe the tuning device tunes each string, and then does a fourier transform and makes a determination of the overall tuning of the ensemble of the strings. That gets you close in open position. Does it still sound right at the fifth fret? or the ninth? How about chords with some strings open and others fretted?

Watch a pro guitar player sometime, and you'll notice the tuning heads get tweaked pretty often, and the reason isn't because the instrument is out of tune, the reason is because there is not a single definition of "in tune" that applies for every situation on the same instrument.

So I think an autotuner would be useful to get you close, like when you put new strings on. A dealer who has a few hundred guitars in the shop that need a daily tuning. A guitar tech who has to put new strings on 8 guitars before each show, during the break, and after, (and who has to tune up in a noisy environment). But for playing, it would be pretty useless, it would be more weight right where you don't want it (on the headstock), it would be yet another battery to worry about, and you really shouldn't need it in the first place.

Tuning a guitar isn't hard -- you don't even really need a "musical" ear to do it. There's a pattern of harmonics, you tune until the bell-tones stop beating, then you find the midpoints between that setup and a certain pattern of fretted-notes to open ones, and then you compromise between the G and B. Then you play a few chords and compromise again, to compensate for intonation issues that all guitars have.

Re:why retension the strings?

[trb]

The reason is, the theoretical perfect tuning does not actually render a musically correct scale.

I think your comment applies equally to this retensioning device as it would to a system that retuned with digital filters, but it doesn't address my question of whether you could just do it all digitally without retensioning.

Re:why retension the strings?

[DeathoP]

You are correct.

Geeks be gettin slow...

[GeorgeVW]

The Trans-Performance has been out for at least 5 years and it's only just now showing up on Slashdot? I have to say I'm disappointed.

Sucks to be you

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing more embarrassing than standing on the stage and tuning 'by ear' while the whole audience is listening.

Especially when you can't do it....

Which makes you a punk.

The first thing you learn is how to tune, then you learn how to play, then you perform. To many people prefer to skip the first two steps sadly. Largely indicitive of where we are at today.

Funny thing is..

[dafragsta]

I'm a huge Jimmy Page fan, and before I finished reading this post, I immediately thought of him. Anyone familiar with him and how he plays should know he ofton plays in alternate tunings like open D and DADGAD. Me being the poser that I am often find myself tuning and detuning my guitar to play some of his stuff.

and at that price...

[kaoshin]

$3,900.00 US, I could buy a couple of really good backup guitars, and also have the advantage of being able to change guitars for different tone options. Hell, I could even buy a Van for my band to carry all our stuff in. Unless you are bloody rich like the people endorsing the product, you probably don't need it. Most people sound like crap wether they are in tune or not anyway. Save your money.

This might be old tech.

[dafragsta]

I remember seeing a very similar keypad on Jimmy's guitar in the MTV Unleaded Page/Plant reunion circa 1996. I do remember seeing it and thinking it a bit odd.

now you can't say

[ch-chuck]

"Well, that guitar isn't going to tune itself".

Other inventions we need:
self cleaning clothes
self washing dishes

Don't fall for it!!!!!!!

[trailerparkcassanova]

It's a conspiracy developed by the wives of guitar players to eliminate a reason for buying another guitar!!! The "I need another guitar for an alternate tuning" has been ironclad for the last 50 years. If you run across one of these turn away. Don't look at it. Next they'll comeup with a guitar that lets you interchange bodys, neck and pickups to eliminate the "I needed a (insert one: Gibson (insert one) LP, SG, ES335,etc Fender (insert one) Strat, Tele (insert one) w/HB,, w/S, 12 string, Rick, Gretsch, PRS, etc) justification.

Computer Controlled

[PRES_00]

The logo on the article's page states the following: Who in his right mind would rave about computer controlled technology? He He, guess this wasn't mean for the slashdot audience.

What about doing the same thing...

[Chordonblue]

...digitally? What if you could simply change tone by re-routing the output to a computer which then samples and changes the tuning on the fly?

True, there'd be some degree of delay, but I would think you could get a similar effect set up to do this digitally.

Case in point, what about Gibson's Ethernet guitar?

http://www.gibsonmagic.com/digitalguitar.html

Since the information is digital to begin with, isn't this same thing possible with minimal delay and without all the analog servos?

Re:What about doing the same thing...

[nexthec]

I think it would be alot harder than that, when you change key's on a guitar, you dont tune all the strings the same all the time. You can drop tune certain strings etc. It would be pretty hard to pick out just a specific string, remodulate it, then change everything back.

Re:What about doing the same thing...

[Chordonblue]

I'm aware that it's not just a simple detuning process but check out that Gibson! Each string does have its own information stream over Ethernet. Totally amazing possibilities there!

Re:What about doing the same thing...

[nexthec]

no shit! eh, much cooler than just my 10 second perusal of the page..... should be easier then

Alternate Tunings

[The Famous Brett Wat]

Pianos can take alternate tunings too, you know, and you sure as heck don't want to be re-tuning a piano manually in mid-performance. Although not all the following are intended for piano-like instruments, the Korg TR-Rack synth module (for which I have the manual at hand) can be configured for the following tunings: Equal Temprament (the standard tuning, where every note differs from the adjacent semitone by a factor of the twelfth root of two), Pure Major, Pure Minor, Arabic, Pythagorean, Werckmeister III, Kirnberger III (mainly for harpsichords), Slendro (Indonesian gamelean scale of five notes), Pelog (Indonesian gamelean scale of seven notes), Stretch, and a couple of user-programmable settings.

Pragmatically speaking, there are (as far as I'm aware) alternate tunings for pianos, organs, and harpichords which relate to specific musical periods, such as the baroque. Thus, for truly faithful reproduction, you may want to tune to the Werckmeister III scale for performing some baroque pieces. Not to mention the different "pure" tunings for all the major and minor keys.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

For almost anything baroque or later, you want to use a tempered scale, so 99.99999% of the pianos out there are tuned to a tempered scale and left there.

Some modern works might call for alternate tuning, I'll leave it to music critics to argue over whether that's being done as a cheap gimmick or not, but otherwise just about all non-tempered keyboard music comes from an era before pianos. If you are enough of a purist to play a re-tuned piano when playing a pre-Bach work, you are probably enough of a purist to play it on a period instrument.

Besides, modern listeners have grown acustomed to the tempered scale. Playing in a "pure" tuning will only impress a handful of snobs.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[The Famous Brett Wat]

Playing in a "pure" tuning will only impress a handful of snobs.

Yes, but the target market for this sort of thing is concert pianists and classical music, so that was pretty much given already. :-)

Re:Alternate Tunings

[selfsimilar]

AHEM. Your "tempered" scale is the "equally tempered" scale and it's actually only recently (in the history of music) come into vogue. There's a great book called "Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" by Stuart Isacoff. Basically Bach's Well Tempered Klavier is written for "well" tempered pianos, not "equal" (aka modern) temperament. And there are a ton of great keyboard works from that era which call for specific differently tempered tunings.

That said, you're right, most modern music is written for equal temperament. But if pianos were easier to tune to alternate temperaments I'm sure many composers would take advantage of that. Sure some might use it as a gimmick, but most serious piano composers are above gimmicks. And while I like John Cage and other modern radicals, it's not his kind of music that I think would benefit most from a piano that could quickly switch to alternate tunings, but the less experimental modern composers. Keyboard music didn't end when Mozart died.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[naoiseo]

non tempered music for the masses

Re:Alternate Tunings

[forgotmypassword]

Ummm the blues?

Blue notes?

Does nobody play the blues anymore?

Wow, a whole genre died and nobody told me.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[chriscrick]

Not quite true. Other temperaments were very common before the 19th century. "Well-tempered", for instance, is not the same as "even-tempered" (the common tuning scheme of the last 175 years). In a well-tempered tuning, keys near C are almost pure, while further along the circle of fifths, the tuning is harsher.

Bach's "Well-tempered Clavier" cycle of preludes and fugues was specifically written to take advantage of the different tone colors available on a well-tempered instrument. If you've only ever heard this music on a bland equal-tempered piano, you're missing out.

Chris

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

Not quite true. Other temperaments were very common before the 19th century.

Exactly... and in what Century did the "pianoforte" become a popular instrument, ubiquidous in homes that could afford them and used by families making their own music all over Western civilization? That's right, the 19th.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[goatan]

Oh no some of still love to play and listen to blues a good young play is Aynsley Lister and of course some of the greats are still playing like Peter Green, Eric Clapton, buddy guy who has just won a grammy for best traditional blues and BB King

So as not to be off topic I guess most of these guys would find the tuner a handy thing for the diffrent blues tunnings

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cybin]

For almost anything baroque or later, you want to use a tempered scale, so 99.99999% of the pianos out there are tuned to a tempered scale and left there.

Funny how the piano wasn't invented until about 1720, 120 years or so into the Baroque era. Equal temperament was showing up as early as the 1500s, by the way - they may not have known how to build pianos but they knew how to build organs.

Some modern works might call for alternate tuning, I'll leave it to music critics to argue over whether that's being done as a cheap gimmick or not

As a composer, I believe that people can tell the difference between tuning systems even if they don't know they are listening to a different tuning system. The brain responds different ways to different things -- if i write a piece for equal-tempered piano, and you tune that piano to mean-tone temperament (where the thirds are perfect) it will sound completely different. if you are an expressive composer, and want to use such things for the purposes of expression, "cheap gimmick" is about as far from the intent as you can get.

but otherwise just about all non-tempered keyboard music comes from an era before pianos. If you are enough of a purist to play a re-tuned piano when playing a pre-Bach work, you are probably enough of a purist to play it on a period instrument.

Yeah, like a harpsichord or organ. The instrument it's supposed to be played on - both of which probably would have been tuned to the same tuning system we use in pianos.

Besides, modern listeners have grown acustomed to the tempered scale. Playing in a "pure" tuning will only impress a handful of snobs.

Try playing 14th Century English music in our tuning system and it will sound like crap -- because they were using a different tuning system. As for today's audiences -- I think they appreciate accuracy and truth in performance, and creativity.

If you're going to poo-poo the classical and contemporary music scenes, you can stick to the commercialized, crappy pop music! And buy yourself one of these auto-guitar-tuners! :)

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cybin]

"History of Western Music" 5th edition by Donald J. Grout page 363:

"The title J.S. Bach gave to his ... Well-Tempered Clavier suggests that he had equal temperament in mind. On the other hand, it has been pointed out that 'well-tempered' can mean good or nearly equal temperament as well as truly equal temperament."

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

Umm... I think if you will re-read my post a little more carefully, you will find that we agree on almost every point. In your rush to be defensive, you failed to stop and observe that you were not under attack to begin with.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

Oh my Gawd... You keep a copy of Grout handy!? While being an authoritative source, that book is probably the most dry and boring text ever written on the subject of music history. Hats off you you, cybin... You are clearly an information junkie!

(That, or you received a music degree recently enough that the book has not had time to be burried behind a box of old shoes in your storage closet.)

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cybin]

hahah... true, true. grout is a scar on the face of many people's existence...

i had it out because i'm currently going through the class again having failed the music history entrance exam for grad school.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[wavedeform]

A more common example is that different orchestras use different frequencies for their reference pitch. We think of 440 Hz being the standard frequency for the note A. That is a fairly recent standard. Orchestras around the world still use different pitches for A. I did the frequency shifters for a Stockhausen piece (Mantra) for two pianos and frequency shifters. I didn't have access to the original equipment, so I recreated everything in an Eventide processor. It worked great at rehersal, but when we went to perform it at the venue, imagine my surprise when the pianos turned out to be tuned to A=443 because of some visiting orchestra. I had to scramble to redo my patch to work with A443. I would have loved to hit a button and have the pianos retune themselves to A440.

And then there is stretch tuning. Stretch tuning is common where the piano is meant to be played as a solo instrument. It involves making higher notes slightly sharp. The ear likes this, perceives it as more in tune, but it is not used by some ensembles, because it can clash with non-stretch tuned instruments.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cloak42]

Hell, I wish I'D kept my copy of Grout, rather than either selling it for beer or burying it somewhere. :)

There's more than once since graduation that I'd wanted to look up something about a composer or time period and realized that I can't remember if I sold my book or if I just lost track of it. I still wonder if I'll come across it down in my parents' basement or something, although I'm pretty sure it was got rid of for beer rather than saved for posterity.

Grout is the standard, though; that's for sure. I still remember my music theory teacher seeing it when I started taking Music History, and hearing him recite the entire first paragraph from memory from when he'd taken it years before... And that first paragraph still hadn't changed a bit since then.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cloak42]

As somebody who has perfect pitch, I completely agree with the statement that different keys have different colors to them. For example, when Bach wrote his "Magnificat" he did it for a church who hired him for the gig, but they wanted it in the key of E flat, which is a ridiculously boring key. After he was done with it, he changed it to the key of D Major, which is what he'd wanted to put it in in the first place. Makes a WORLD of difference.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[gymell]

Playing in a "pure" tuning will only impress a handful of snobs.

No ... playing in the tuning system appropriate to the historical context of the piece will open the ears of those indoctrinated into the dullness that is equal temperament. The use of historical temperaments, in music up to and including Bach, has nothing to do with being a snobby purist and everything to do with how the music sounds.

Equal temperament did not come into common use until after the Baroque period. Perhaps you should try listening to a Bach (well temperament) or Scarlatti (modified mean tone) harpsichord piece with that in mind and see how different it can be.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

We are talking about pianos here. Pianos. Not harpsichords, organs, or other period instruments. You are incorrect to assume that I have not "tried" listening to Scarlatti or other music which is intended to be performed with a different tuning. If you read my post again (Holy crap, there's a lot of people reading things into it that I didn't say), you will see that I'm saying that tuning a piano to a historical temperament for the performance of one piece is a pointless exercise. If you are going to go to all that trouble, you might as well play it on the correct instrument. Bach never wrote anything for the piano, as it had not even been invented at the time.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[andfarm]

"Blue notes" are part of the standard twelve-tone scale.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[gymell]

Actually the piano was invented before Bach's death, he tried a few different models and wasn't that impressed. The 18th century piano of Mozart and Haydn is considered a period instrument, and as such it can be worthwhile to tune accordingly when playing music of that era.

By the way, I did read your post again and once again read that playing in a "pure" temperament will only impress a handful of snobs. If you don't like how people are reading the words you wrote, then perhaps you should write different ones.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[gymell]

Equal temperament was showing up as early as the 1500s, by the way - they may not have known how to build pianos but they knew how to build organs.

The concept of equal temperament was introduced in 1636 by Marin Mersenne in his treatise "Harmonie Universalle." Organs of the time were typically tuned in mean tone.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[micromoog]

The key "colors" don't apply to an even-tempered piano, perfect pitch notwithstanding. With well-tempered instruments, some keys sounded excellent and some sounded like ass. The tuning was simply designed that way, where some keys were fairly close to being "correct" at the expense of other keys. It all stems from the fact that the twelve-tone scale is NOT evenly divided in reality, but dividing it evenly makes for a pretty good approximation.

With today's ubiquitous even-tempered pianos, they all sound reasonably good (or mediocre if you prefer).

On an even-tempered piano, the major third is the interval where you can most easily hear the imperfection (play a major third on a piano and listen closely for the beats; then have a good violinist play one -- no beats.)

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Professor Collins]

Thank you for making a complete fool of yourself. Real blue notes fall in between the major and minor thirds and sevenths, and are not anywhere near approximated by the 12-tone equal tempered scale.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[GypC]

Not really. Blues musicians often linger on, or sometimes directly hit tones between the notes of the twelve-tone scale, most often between the fourth and the flat fifth, and sometimes between the minor third and the major third.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[GypC]

Oh yeah, and between the major and minor sevenths. Thanks, Professor. ;-)

Re:Alternate Tunings

[cloak42]

It is true that pianos' even-temperedness makes for much more muted difference in the sounds of different keys (I wouldn't ever say, though, that key "colors" don't apply to an even-tempered piano, though, as you did; I hear them even on a perfectly-tuned piano--or a synthesized piano, which is a perfect example of a perfectly tempered instrument), but I wasn't necessarily talking about a piano in my above post, either. The example I gave above was of Bach's "Magnificat", which is a good example due to its heavy use of fretless strings and wind instruments, which DO play in non-temperament.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[andfarm]

Not what my music theory book says... according to it, "blue notes" are either the major or minor third (or, yes, seventh). Putting the blue notes at the quarter tone inbetween would (1) sound rather strange and (2) cause trouble with non-dynamically-tunable instruments, including the piano, trumpet, saxophone(?), standard guitar, and others.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[GypC]

Trumpet, saxophone, and guitar can all play quarter tones quite easily.

You don't actually play music, do you?

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Golias]

Context, kid. Context. If you follow the thread, we were clearly discussing alternate-tunings on pianos. The piano as we know it did not really catch on until long after Bach was gone.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[andfarm]

I do, actually, but I haven't had any experience with those specific instruments. I'd be curious to know how, though.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[Ubernurd]

Wind instruments can play notes that fall "between the cracks" of the piano ("equal temperament") quite easily. The specific technique for doing so varies from instrument to instrument but here is the gist of it:

Woodwind players (sax, clarinet, etc) tend to open the throat in a yawning motion to make a larger chamber for the air column and thus lower the pitch. They can also pull pitches upwards by using jaw tension, and varying the size of their aperture (the opening of the mouth). On instruments with open holes (holes which are covered with the fingertips as opposed to pads controlled by keys) a musician can "half-hole" or allow air to partially escape from the hole to lower the pitch a bit. Flute players will "roll [in/out]" which is litterally rotating the flute [towards/away] from your face to allow [more/less] air into the opening in order to pull the pitch [down/up]

Brass players (trumpet, trombone, tuba, etc) will "lip up/down". By using specific muscles in the embrochure (including but not limited to the muscles surrounding the mouth and jaw) and also by raising/lowering the elevation of the tongue to make the airstream move faster/slower (think: airplane wing). They also have other techniques at their disposal, too: Instruments with valves can "half-valve". This is when the musician places the valve halfway in between the open and closed positions. This allows them to play an arbitrary pitch in between the usual 12. These "bent" pitches don't have as clear a tone as ones played with the valve either closed or open but it's a neat effect often used in jazz.

And of course, trombonists have slides. They can play any note a little sharper or flatter than "in tune" and they frequently do. Particularly after a few Guinness.

All of the above techniques are essential for any wind player worth their salt. Most instruments, even the top of the line professional ones, don't play perfectly in tune so these techniques are often necessary to force the instrument to pitch correctly.

hope this helps.

Re:Alternate Tunings

[GypC]

Nice explanation, Ubernurd.

And, of course, guitarists can bend the strings to go sharp, and/or use a "whammy bar" to go flat... there are other techniques as well, pressing on the strings behind the nut or the bridge, manipulating the tuning keys, etc.

Tips

[blackmonday]

Guitar tuning has a lot to do with the nut (save the jokes...). This is the piece of plastic, bone or graphite on the end of the fretboard that holds the strings in place before they hit the tuning machines. Most guitars that won't tune aren't so bad because of the tuning keys, it's that the nut is not cut properly for the size strings you're using. If they don't sit right, they won't stay in tune, simple as that. Oh, and STRETCH those strings when they're new! Search google, its very simple and your new strings will behave very nicely after a stretch, because you get the kinks out.

Also, there's a handheld tuner that you can buy that physically turns the peg for you, all you do is pluck the string. I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet, it's been around for over 10 years. The difference is that it only does one string at a time, and you hve to physically hold it in place while you tune.

In the long run, tuning a guitar is not rocket science and keeping your nut in good shape and having a decent set of tuners (even ones on a cheap Fender Squire are pretty good nowadays) will keep you playing alright. This invention is pretty cool for a wow value, but it's like using an Abrahms tank to kill a mosquito. I play several guitars with old-school Bigsby tremolos and I don't have any tuning problems.

Re:Tips

[Anonymous Coward]

Costs about $25 to have a guitar tech carve a bone (or stone!) bridge saddle and nut for your guitar, and fix the intonation. Shame people don't realize this. You can make a $200 guitar into a much better instrument just by doing this.

Re:Tips

[Trollificus]

Great points about tuning. But I would like to specifically highlight your remark about the old school tremolos. A lot of people don't seem to understand that the way you wrap your strings can make all the difference in the way a guitar holds its tune. I've seen some pretty bad wrapping techniques in my day, and it seems people are either lazy or they just don't realize how important it is.

I know more modern guitarists are into locking nuts and whatnot. I believe Ibanez even designed and manufactured locking tuning pegs at one point. What most of the people who use these implements don't realize is that they don't need them. A properly strung guitar can hold its tune just as good as a guitar with a locking nut(and is a hell of a lot more convenient for that matter). Look at Malmsteen as an example. His guitars are a testament to that(those familiar with his music know how much he over-uses his bar, yet he never slips out of tune).

Technology is nice, but it is no substitute for learning how to restring and tune a guitar yourself(Hell, I know a few guitarists who don't know how to set intonation properly either). This auto-tuning technology will become as much of a crutch as the locking nut was for poor guitar craftsmanship(as you were saying, the nut) and people who cannot be bothered to learn how to string their instrument properly.

Bill Frisell

[good soldier svejk]

Once, at a John Schofield gig I attended, a guy in the audience made fun of Scho for using a tuner. John snapped back nobody uses those anymore, except Bill Frisell, and he's weird. Maybe you had to be there.

For the record Schofield and Frizell are both brilliant players. I always tuned by ear.

Re:Bill Frisell

[iomud]

Reminds me of Eric Johnson, in one of his instructional videos he says he tunes low E A and D strings slightly and increasingly flat from D to low E and his G B and high E slightly and increasingly sharp. He says he does this due to inaccuracies in the western scale. He has a notoriously discerning ear. I've read stories of him striping down his entire signal path amps to the boards in the studio to make sure it was as pristine as it could be to his ear. For instance, he takes out the screw in the bottom of his dallas arbiter fuzz face and secures the loose assembly plates with a rubber-band because he thinks it sounds better.

Then again, in ear training programs I've heard that if you can't be in tune be ever so slightly sharp as it sounds a bit brighter to the human ear. You tend to get a less 'off sounding' performance to the audience.

Re:Bill Frisell

[good soldier svejk]

Yeah, tempered scale is sort of an art. I had a friend who wouldn't use tuners for that reason. He felt they temperered too accurately, screwing up the harmonics and making everything sound out of tune. I never used a tuner enough to notice, but his views made sense to me. Here is an article on the subject.

Eric Johnson is a hell of a player, BTW, but his songwriting leaves something to be desired. Pretty impressive live.

Re:Bill Frisell

[iomud]

It's amazing to hear Eric Johnson talk about his own playing, you'd swear he was no good at all! He comes off as being very hard on his own ability. Yet he gets on stage and runs all over pentatonics like most people can only dream. He has a really unique approach to string skipping, like fifths jazz warmup type exercises only very fast and very musical. Mostly though I like the way he freeform comps live, so many great layers of chords. Kind of Larry Correll-ish. Very cool.

Re:Bill Frisell

[good soldier svejk]

He has very good tone as well. When I first heard him, on that floppy single he did for Guitar Player back in the 80s, I said "Damn! That's the sound I've been hearing in my head!" Unfortunately, everything came out sounding more like Joe Satriani. When I stopped pushing, I settled into my comfortable, more Zappaesque routine. But the rut got so bad I ended up quitting altogether. I just hated everything I played. :-(

Overall I'll take Sco any day. The way he plays those figures which flow between single notes, chords and intervals. It blows my mind. His playing is more three dimensional, i.e. no boundary between melody and harmony, than anyone I ever heard. Plus, his music is so diverse. Shinola is the about as punk as Jazz ever got.

Re:Bill Frisell

[iomud]

Along those same lines I'm a fan of George Benson's jazzier stuff, he's a better player than a lot of people give him credit for. Especially on live tracks where he improvises at a pace that can only be described as 'intense'. Really good tone as well, very little attack. He can also has a pretty insane voice, a rare combination. Personally I tend to play blues type stuff but I try to have a little bit of a jazzier take on it. Sort of like Robben Ford I guess. I really like blending the blues and jazz to put an odd spin on things. I really like layering chord changes to the point that it's almost self-indulgent. I definitely picked that up from EJ, funny how that works.

Re:Bill Frisell

[good soldier svejk]

Weekend in LA was classic album.

I took a class from Archie Shepp in college and he was adamant about the importance of maintaining Jazz's core connection to Blues and dance music. I once asked him some questions about Ascension (which he played on) and he said that album, and the Free revolution it unleashed, was a mistake. I nearly shit a cinderblock. We are talking about the album Bill Mathieu described as "possibly the most powerful human sound ever recorded."

That said Jazz and Blues go together like beans and cornbread. Especially minor blues. Excuse me while I go listen to a few different versions of Porgy and Bess. :-)

Re:Bill Frisell

[iomud]

It's odd, I have an affinity for some more experimental sounding stuff too. Charlie Hunter has some really cool stuff, organ like tones out of that weird half guitar half bass he plays. You can hear his influence on tracks like Neon from John Mayer. That said, I also like guys like Preston Reed, every song of his sounds like it should be on a soundtrack somewhere.

What a terrible idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one invention that had no necessity. If a player cannot tune their own guitar, they need to learn how. If a guitar has a problem holding its tuning, then the guitar needs repair. If you are looking to bolt more hardware than is necessary to your instrument, maybe you should take up keyboards instead.

No professional player would be caught dead with one of these on their guitars.

Re:What a terrible idea.

[fok]

what abou the speed?
can you tune your guitar one tone lower in two secs? :)

I don't even play anything hehehe ;P

Re:What a terrible idea.

[DeathoP]

Hmm. You better not be who I think you are, a.coward. You obviously know that this is priced for the professional and I'm sure you saw the list of professional owners of this system on the site. TWIMC: this is geared at the high-end...new models to come out soon will be much cheaper and have the options of: guitar w/just one tuning + tuning system guitar w/3-6 tunings + tuning system current model is the Performer. Thousands of tunings, all the extras (larger user menu). -C.Kessel

Not meant for beginners

[sydbarrett74]

Whilst this may be a boon for experienced guitarists, it's a disaster for those just starting out. Learning to tune your own guitar teaches you pitch and trains your ears. Any musician worth his/her salt can quickly tune an instrument using the grey matter betwixt the ears and nothing else.

Don't touch me with that filthy thing!

[CertGen]

Hmm...yes...let me hand over my beautiful guitars so you can route cavities and holes and dig up the bridge mounts and turn my fabulous (but not fast to retune) instruments into technological wonders. No thanks.

Maybe if I was Jimmy Page and owned more early Gibson's than the Gibson Factory Museum I could bare to part with one of my instruments.

I'll keep all the wood behind my bridge so to speak.

Marketed as: Opporknockity Strings

[Freshly Exhumed]

"Opporknockity only tunes once."

Never mind...

Ancient "News"

[Anonymous Coward]

These things have been around for over a decade. The industry has been there, done that, and thrown away the t-shirt. The problem with these devices is that they weigh a lot. Add that to the weight of a hefty Gibson Les Paul and you better start working out before you even think about playing a gig. In the end, if you can't tune a guitar quickly and accurately you are probably wasting too much money on your instrument in the first place for it to be worth fitting this sort of machinery.

Oh no!

[lxt]

This'll be the end of an era of teenagers trying to play badly out of tune guitars! Where will it end next? Drums that play themselves? Oh, wait a minute.

Not true ... tuning is part science, part art

[cagle_.25]

tuning, as it turns out, is inherently flawed. This occurs because of the "Pythagorean comma": essentially, the combination of a perfect fifth + a perfect fourth leads to an imperfect octave. Hence, there are actually multiple different ways to tune instruments, each of which makes sense in its own way. One example is "Well-Tempering" (as in Bach's Well-Tempered Klavier), which places priority on tuning keys near C. Chords like C, G, etc. played on a Well-Tempered scale sound particularly in tune, whereas chords like F# sound less well-tuned.

The most common scheme today is "Equal Tempering", in which every half-step is a multiple of 2^(1/12) above its neighbor. In this scheme, C# and Db (for example) are considered the same note, whereas in other schemes, they are not. The upside of this is that all keys sound equally "in tune"; the downside is that no key sounds perfectly in tune.

Historical note: some early Klaviers had seperate keys for sharps and flats, since those notes were not considered to be the same.

So, the "science" part of tuning is what you see in the autotuner. The "art" part is tuning the instrument to make the music sound like you hear it in your head.

Bottom line: if a guitarist tunes all of its open strings to a piano, it will not sound "in tune" to the guitarist. Of course, an autotuner can presumably be customized to taste.

Very Cool

[Java Ape]

This would be an excellent tool for the professional musician. I'm a moderatly skilled guitarist and perform small gigs on the side for giggles and pocket change -- usually on a twelve string acoustic.

IMHO the posts about "ruining the musicians ear" are bogus. If you RTFA you'll see that this gizmo allows the scales to be tempered to suit the musicians taste. You want to modulate the B-string a few hertz flat -- go ahead, that's what a tempered scale is. Besides, you develop a good ear by playing a well-tuned instrument, not by compensating mentally for a discordant mess.

I have a reasonably good ear, and use harmonics when "ear tuning" because they're more accurate than the fret placement (and less subject to the rising tone problems caused by fretting the previous string, which raises it's tone slightly). I'm at least as good as the cheap electronic tuners, but not as good as the higher-end needle-guage based units. Based on the price of this unit, I'm betting it uses a pretty high quality tuner - far better than most guitarists ear! Having strings 1 hertz off doesn't make much difference on a six-string played with high distortion at a rock concert. But on a twelve string, even a small difference between paired strings leads to an unpleasant audible "beating". The same thing happens with classical guitars, where it becomes annoying (usually when lower strings are fretted above the twelvth fret, and sound out of sync with a supposedly identical note played on a higher string).

So, this unit is faster than a human, more accurate than a human, allows complete control over scale tempering, and stores a couple of hundred alternate tunings. It's got me beat hands down, and I suspect that's why professionals are paying nearly 4g to get one!

Re:Very Cool

[mandolin]

I have a reasonably good ear, and use harmonics when "ear tuning" because they're more accurate than the fret placement (and less subject to the rising tone problems caused by fretting the previous string, which raises it's tone slightly).

I'll buy this, but if most of your song consists of fret-banging rather than harmonics (IOW the usual case)... wouldn't the song still sound better if you used fret tuning?

Guitar Value

[BadBlood]

I don't know about you, but if I'm buying a REAL Les Paul for $3500 then I'm not modding it with anything. At all.

I'd rather manually tune it than ruin a fine piece of craftmanship with modern technology that isn't worth the bang for the buck.

I'd have trouble even changing the pickups on a Les Paul for fear of devaluing it....

been done with DSP before

[naoiseo]

This is a DSPless implimentation, but DSP (digital signal processing) works well.

For about 1.5k, you can buy a digital amp that does all of this, and more, with a pickup fitted to your guitar.

Roland makes it. Here we are Roland VGA-7 amp

Piano Humidity Control

[sam1am]

Well, many pianos already take quite a bit of electricity (and regular watering) to run, as they are outfitted with a Humidty Control System; often this works by having two heating elements, one in the piano, and one below, in a tank of water.
Too much humidty, and the top heating rod gets warm, helping dry the piano. Too little, and the water tank gets heated to help evaporate the water.
The automated piano tuner that works with heat could work in conjunction with a dehumidier system, too.
--
HUMANS do it better

Overpowering common sense with technology...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Transperformance device reminds me an awful lot of
a Segway, conceptually.

Both manage to use technology to accomplish what was fundamentally a flawed idea from the beginning.

I worked on this ten years ago..

[Anonymous Coward]

...and it certainly wasn't going to cost $4k, we had a target price of $50. Jimmy Page was already endorsing a competing technology but it took racks of processors to do it - they have obviously boiled down the size but not the cost. We were doing it more to help out beginners tune their instruments. It worked, too; sad really, the investors lost heart and the project collapsed.

Even Temperament: why guitar tuning isn't possible

[MartinB]

There's a fun problem with tuning instruments: you can indeed tune them perfectly, provided you only ever stay in one key.

Simple intervals - 4th, 5th and octave are based on simple proportions of frequencies. Unfortunately, as you keep going up the simple proportions, you get out of line with where you started from.

Example: a simple circle of 5ths:

c - g - d - a - e - b - f# - c# - g# - d# - a# - f - c

This should take you exactly 7 octaves up, so with a frequency of exactly 2**7 that of the original C. But sadly, it doesn't. As you go further up, you get a bit out, and it's actually painfully out of tune.

Trouble is, a relatively common way to tune guitars without electronics is to do so by harmonics, counting beats. But this means that not only is your top E not 2 octaves above your bottom E, all your frets are subtley wrong and you'll have some problems around your G/B strings because it's not a simple 4th interval.

Violin players have it easy - they only have 4 strings at equal intervals, covering under 2 octaves, plus as they don't have any frets, really class violinists will unconsciously micro-adjust their notes mid stream.

What is much easier to do for fixed instruments like keyboards and fretted string instruments is tune one octave perfectly (say white notes starting at middle C), then tune each C on the instrument to N octaves up/down from the original C, then each D, and so on. Result, as long as you stay on the white keys (so C major/A minor/other white key modes), you're fine. But if you modulate to say G Major - a normal direction - you'll be in pain as your F# will be way out, so a simple dominant chord of D will be nasty.

This was well understood by about 1600, and came to a head with the rise of organ playing, and a number of compromises were worked out, where all the little differences are adjusted so that you can play in any key, and it'll be near enough OK. A side result of this is that different keys have different sounds as the adjustments fall differently.

As a demonstration of this variation of key colour, J S Bach wrote a set of preludes and fugues - 2 sets of 24, covering every major and every minor key, called the Well Tempered Klavier (or just the '48').

More than you need to know at A beginner's guide to temperament.

Jimmy Page tuned within 2 cents

[c13v3rm0nk3y]

There's a long audio interview with Jimmy Page on the site. It's funny to hear him speak.

Why? Is he out of tune?

Re:Jimmy Page tuned within 2 cents

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be news if he wasn't.

Tap?

[Queelix]

I myself am going to wait for the Nigel Tuffnel signature series from TransPerformace which is rumored to include easier foot based operation and optional autotuning violin...

Three things.

[Anonymous Coward]

1. This technology is old. At least five years old. Page was, IIRC, one of the first to have it installed.

2. Yes, this is a boon for single-guitar owners who lack a tech, or for guitarists who need alternate tunings within individual songs(that's sick, man, just sick). The flip side is that it's a major pain for the techs who have to restring the wretched thing every day (i.e. professional touring guitar techs).

3. I recall an early glitch was pitchbending. I have no idea if this has been fixed, but it once was that if you started holding bent notes as in a solo, the dadgum thingamajig would start "helping" you by auto-tuning back to the "correct" string tension. Bad.

Re:Another reason why this is great for Jimmy Page

[ageitgey]

In the '98 Page/Plant tour he was actually using the auto-tuner to twist the knobs during the 'Whole lot ta love' solo (in addition do also doing it manually at other points). Flipping through a few presents gets a pretty nifty effect.

Agreed!

[dbCooper0]

I'm a keyboard player, and nothing irks me more than having my ears "hurt" through a song while the guitar is out of tune. It certainly is more than distracting while doing a Beatles or Simon & Garfunkle cover and trying to sing properly.

My partner in a Thursday night duo at a local tavern has a sweet new Gibson Hummingbird...but for some reason he has to touch up the tuning every couple of songs. The pickup he uses for now is the type that goes in the "sound hole", and he thinks it's the magnetic pull of the coils that cause the problem. I don't see how, as the pickup should be passive with very little magnetic effect?

Re:Agreed!

[goatan]

The pickups are always magnetic well there are other types like piezo (which are for nylon string accoustics) but most pickups will have a magnetic effect as the sound is created by the string passing throught the magnetic field ans producing electricity. if the magnetic pull of his pickup is strong enough to de tune the strings its likley that the tunning heads are weak but this is unlikley in a new guitar or likley the strings are fresh and new with a lot of give. My fender strat requires a lot of stretching the strings whilst tuning fresh string for the first time whilst my epiphone dosen't

Re:Agreed!

[dbCooper0]

Yup. Like I said, this is a brand new Hummingbird. This guy has been playing professionally since his mid-teens, and besides his original Les Paul, he's got a Strat, a Tele, an Alvarez acoustic, and ends up trading a couple of extra guitars here and there.

I was of the mindset that the pickups are similar to electromagnets in that the coils generate a small magnetic field as the electricity is produced (or modulated), but not enough to pull on the string any more than the pressure of the fingers near a fret.

If that's not the reason for the frequent need to tune, it's still possible that Gibson "don't make 'em like they used to!"...but as you noted, it's unlikely the tuners are worn or defective.

Re:Agreed!

[Java Ape]

You are correct, the magnetic field is passive, and extremely small. Realize that the tuners are already holding against considerable tension (enough to bow the neck of most guitars visibly, and many 12-strings have met an early end due to the constant pull distorting the entire instrument). The magnetic effects of the pickup entirely negligable (dangle an iron needle near the strings and see how it DOESN'T deflect).

More likely, he has a badly formed nut, a sub-optimal tuner, or the strings are still stretching. My money would be on the nut, which is quite common, particularly (for some reason) on the G string. If the groove is too narrow, or incorrectly angled, the string binds in it, only becomes evenly-tensioned along it's length after playing for a few minutes. A bit of emery cloth can make a world of difference in such a case. You can usually spot this problem by listening carefully as you tune -- if the note jumps suddenly it's a sure sign the nut needs help.

Re:Agreed!

[dbCooper0]

Ya well, we're playing tonight, and I'll relay the info from this thread. I sent him (and all the guitarists I know) the info on the link to the story's subject, and I think I'll also send them a link to the entire /. story as well.

As it is, it could very well be the problem you described with the nut. I think the strings are beyond the initial stretching, and since he's a veteran of 35 years with guitars, he'd know if that were the case. I played it when he first got it a month or two ago, and noticed that the action itself was stiffer than his old Alvarez, and nowhere near as easy to play as his GF's Martin D-20.

I'll (exercising diplomacy) suggest that he check the nut out; he's actually done similar setup work before as well as intonation, fret jobs, etc. I really want him to take the thing to a Gibson cert'd shop nearby and get a $150 installation of a better pickup - like he has had in other guitars. There's no comparison in the sound quality...we could then run his channel on the board almost flat instead of rolling off all that midrange :))

Do you mean the Hipshot Trilogy...?

[Half-pint HAL]

Some company back in the 80s made a guitar bridge where you could flip switches at the base of each string to change its tuning . . . I think it worked fairly well, but was not widely used.

Would this be the Hipshot Trilogy, by any chance? This is still available (Stewart MacDonald's Guitar Supply still stock it. Hipshot Trilogy.) There is a switch on each string that allows it to be tuned to three different notes. I plan to use one when I build myself a guitar with a Lace Helix neck. That'd be one nifty axe.... HAL.

Re:Do you mean the Hipshot Trilogy...?

[micromoog]

Yep, that's what I was thinking of. I saw Michael Hedges use something similar to it. Pretty cool to watch.

There can be nothing funny about Jimmy Page...

[Apostata]

...because the man is a God.

Jimmy Page is a God. There.

fabulous?

[Anonymous Coward]

from the NS article:
"With more than 200 strings inside them, pianos are the one musical instrument that musicians cannot normally tune themselves."

What about pipe organs with thousands of pipes?!
What about older woodwind instruments with no joints, or older brass instruments with no crooks?
What about chromatic percussion instruments? How many orchestra members do you know who can tune a glockenspiel?

Also, wouldn't there be an impact from the strings being at 35 deg C? That's pretty warm for a piano. Probably warm enough to reduce the life of the soundboard. Not to mention the sonic distortion of having large air temperature gradients within the instrument.

Cher is the best example

[sideshow]

The "do you believe in life after love" song has an exagerated amount of auto tune. Think of it as a "step function" for your voice.

Re:Cher is the best example

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's a vocoder. She was actually going for that effect (god only knows)

Re:Cher is the best example

[WWWWolf]

AC:

No, that's a vocoder. She was actually going for that effect (god only knows)

Hmm. I heard "Believe" had autotuner instead of vocoder. The most recent boy band song I heard apparently used autotuner, and it sounds just like Cher's effect. =)

The web page also says the two things are similar, and lists all sorts of other things done to the song to make it sound as boybandish as possible. =)

Re:Cher is the best example

[Psychic Burrito]

Yep, it was a vocoder. A Digitech Talker. Carrier signal was a Nord Rack and modulator input was her voice.

If you need some explanation how a vocoder works, I highly suggest this great vocoder article.

And for all the details on Cher's song, read this Making-of "Believe" with all the gritty details.

consider modding parent down

[SNACKeR]

Tuning is a science, not an art.

It is neither, rather, it is a subjective process, since a note or chord played on one part of the neck that is in tune may be out of tune on another part of the neck. So, the player must decide where they want things to be most in tune, or split the difference

Either the guitar is in tune, or it's not.

A nice thought, but not true unless you are using samples that are always in tune. Things that affect tuning include: the angle the player is holding the instrument at, changes in temperature, humidity, how hard it is initally plucked, how clean the string is, etc. And those are all on an OPEN string. When you fret it, many more factors come into play.

If it's not, it sounds wrong. An out of tune guitar sounds bad, period.

This is a subjective judgement stated as fact. There are many things not "in tune" that sound good to many people. For instance, the sound of their own voice ;)

Talk about old news

[bubkus_jones]

Dudes, this has been out for years. Personally, I think it's pointless. It's really expensive, it needs you to either buy a new instrument with one, or have it installed on your current axe, and it eliminates the ability to have a vibrato on the guitar.

Why not...

[haskellcompiler]

tuning C# or F#?

Cool project

[fliptout]

This sounds like a natural extension of a lot of senior electrical engineering projects. Seems like every semester somebody is doing a DSP-based guitar tuner.

Good and Bad Idea

[SphericalCrusher]

It will certainly shave off about 30 minutes at band practice... but is it worth it? I'm sure that it was programmed by some of the best and fastest guitar-tuners in the world's ideas... but could it outdo someone who has a lot of experience playing guitars?

Put it like this; compare it to automatic cars. Sure, they can speed -- they accelerate pretty quickly also, but can they compare to manual vehicles in the time of racing? Of course not. Because manual transmission gives the person total control of shifting gears -- he knows just when to shift and ride the gears out (if he's good). Now doesn't that seem like a skill an experienced guitar player might have over a guitar that tunes itself?

As that old saying goes... a computer only knows what we tell it to. But what happens if we learn something new? It's still thoughtless...

Re:People... Cost

[ZHaDoom]

"The cost to retrofit your guitar is $3,250. This price includes installation, power supply, power cable, a 22-foot stage cable, user's manual, technical support, and a 2-year limited factory warranty. Our optional Full Accessory Pack is available for $199.99. The Full Accessory Pack consists of all of the following accessories. These accessories can also be purchased individually as needed."

MOD him up

[Anonymous Coward]

Go figure.... someone on /. got a gig joke right.

this is great for rock & roll players

[Anonymous Coward]

who generally can't tune their instruments in the first place.

I've heard all this before.........

[digrieze]

Wow this place makes me feel so old.

Back when I started playing in the '60s we used a piano harmonic to tune or a "pitch pipe". Chromatic tuners started to come in the REALLY high end dollar range and people said they'd ruin musicians ears, never tune right, yada, yada, yada. Nowdays you can get a great tuner for around $15 bucks discounted online and they're built into every digital pedal you get. Even acoustic guitars come with them built in in everything except the bottom of the line models (love the tuner in my new Ovation, the electronics beat the heck out of my first).

If you play ANY old rock you gotta get good at alternate tunings or the songs just DON'T sound right This is called "The Performer" for a reason, if you do anything nowdays you'll use at least 2-3 tunings to get the set right, so hitting a button to retune to Drop-D, Drop-C, DABGAD, or some of those really weird Led Zep or Blue Oyster Cult stuff this would be a blessing.

I expect in another 15-20 years every decent guitar will have this or something similar built in just like the chromatic tuners and stuffed shirts will be arguing about something else wrecking musicians ears. The price will drop, just like Seth Lovers' humbuckers and the Bigsby and Whammy tremelos.

Personally, as I get older, It'd be nice to not lug around a van load of gear, I'm REALLY looking hard at the Line 6 guitars, but just don't like the actions (personal preference, some love them).

How do you tune a Gibson SG?

[Anonymous Coward]

Frequently, my boy, frequently.

Here's a cheaper (and maybe better) solution

[Rex Code]

Frankly, I'm amazed that they can sell any of these for $3400 (the telecaster basic installation fee), when a Hipshot is making a bridge called the Trilogy that can do essentially the same thing mechanically and costs less than 200 dollars. With the Trilogy, you have a three position lever for each string, and can tune each position to any note you want. This gives you over 700 combinations with the notes you've tuned into the bridge.

Not only that, but off by two cents might cut it for live rock, but doesn't seem nearly accurate enough for serious use. I've got a Hipshot Drop-D lever on my guitar's low E, and use a strobe tuner to tune it. When I flip back and forth, I get a standing wave on both the D and E settings, and the tuner is good to one tenth of a cent. That's what I like to see (and hear), and is probably the same accuracy you'd get with the Trilogy bridge, though I've not tried one myself (and have no affiliation with Hipshot other than being a satisfied customer... just passing along the info).

staying in tune

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever played with an old sg? i've got a '73 sg that stays in tune for about 2 minutes, even with strings that are not brand new. that'd be great to have an automagic tuner on that thing, at least i'm not tuning between every song.

I gained a job

[DeathoP]

I'm associated with TransPerformance, so I guess I'm one of the lucky bastards that gets to play all those artists guitars when they come in for the retro-fit of our tuning system.

Really a great system. I can't say it enough. Like page says, "...it makes your eyes pop out!", you've got to see, hold and play a guitar with this system in it to truely appreciate it.

We're also up to ver.7.xx of the software in the workshop, so no more -2/+2 cents of target. Now it's dead-on. Battery meter, on-screen tuner, less power consumption...

I've sent the inventor a link to this article and think he just might drop by and read up soon.

I've got a few pics on my site. Go ahead, slashdot the sucker:

www.geocities.com/cakman1967/cakSelfTuningGuitar s. html

-C. Kessel

they do this with heat too

[mr_burns]

There are self tuning guitars out there that tune by thermal expansion rather than "retensioning"

The problem is that any system has to be careful not to make it more likely that you'll break a string. That's a bigger hassle than tuning.

We had a crap service design it.

[DeathoP]

...now we have a single teenager working on it, so expect it to improve! :) -C.Kessel

...and you are?...

[DeathoP]

...no...really, who are you?

-C.Kessel

White Stripes uses this.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pratically a requirement that they be absolutely in tune, what with all the MIDI sequencing and looping they do in the studio and in their shows.

Thoughts about this from a Guitar Player

[Dolemite_the_Wiz]

I took a good look at this page and it's almost on the 'chaging the course of guitar playing' level. I love how you are able to change entire tunings while you're playing a song. This sort of technology can exponentially open up the creativity levels of the average guitar player. i can see why Jimmy Page is associated with this product as he's the master of wierd tunings.

However there's some major topics that this website doesn't cover:

Playing live with a Piano - When you're playing on the road or outside, you need to tune your instruments to the piano or keyboard due to the fact that it's the hardest to tune. This isn't an issue when in the studio but on the road, this can be a nightmare because you need to first set the tunings of the strings to the keyboard (if it hasn't been tuned lately) and then you can play with the cool electronic stuff.

Weather - This is a MAJOR factor on instruments as a +/- 10 degree (Farenheit) change in the weather from 'room temprature' can severely alter the tunings and the overall sound that comes out of the guitar. (This goes for pianos too if you're trying to tune them both outside).

Acoustic/Electric - For the Chunk of change that they want for this product you would think that they would make different sounds available too. Think about it. Not only could you change tunings on this guitar but you can change the sound from electric to acoustic. The technology is there. Alex Lifeson from Rush has been using it since the 'Test for Echo' tour.

Just my $.02.

Dolemite
_____________________

AMEN!

[omichron]

I've been using my thumb for years! Makes those odd dissonant, transitional chords that cover 4 frets easier to play, builds more calouses on the hand-overall plus I like it pushes those wild solos nearer to chaos! You can add in some chunky harmonics on the bassier end of the guitar by using variable pressure on the lower strings in relation to what your playing whether it's single strings or groups of strings.

Re:consider modding parent down

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a subjective judgement stated as fact. There are many things not "in tune" that sound good to many people. For instance, the sound of their own voice ;)

Or any Led Zepplin song!