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MS Rails On Open Source, Appeals To Gov't Greed
Bill Harper writes "Open source software is a 'waste of money,' a Microsoft executive has said. He goes on to say that governments planning to use it will damage their own economies and that giving away source code is shooting yourself in the foot. What's interesting though is that this is just the latest in a series of nonsense arguments put forward by MS in Asia because it's scared of Linux stealing the market. An early one was that open-source software is anti-competitive!" Funny thing is, the MS executive (Chris Sharp) used to work for Red Hat.
"Funny thing is, the MS executive (Chris Sharp) used to work for Red Hat."
Funny? It's scary more than anything, as it'll just make what he says seem more 'credible'. Of course, he's just some greedy bastard, and it's good to see him not working for an OSS company anymore, but it doesn't help Linux much in this propaganda campaign.
the painful lesson that they will have to transform from a company that create standards to being one that contributes to them.
They honestly believe that having tons of cash will buy them anything but open standards and architecture eventually win out. They always have, they always will. They are just throwing up their arms in exaperation because they just don't get it. They will,..soon enough
Doesn't Microsoft also claim that their software shouldn't be used in mission-critical systems? Wouldn't you think that government systems quality (usually) as mission-critical?
Hooray for hypocracy.
...so that's why they named it C#!
webpage
Funny thing is, the MS executive (Chris Sharp) used to work for Red Hat.
The only thing Chris Sharp works for is Chris Sharp.
If you don't have any ideals at all, you probably won't work well in Open Source.
Of course, I really shouldn't speak for Chris Sharp.
governments planning to use it will damage their own economies
...And governments using MS products aren't damaging their own economies by exposing themselves to 31337 h4x0rz, virii, spyware, seineewerasreenigneepacsten style backdoors, and other closed source, proprietary crap that only Microsoft can spoonfeed to us?
*rubs index finger and thumb together* This is the worlds smallest violin, playing a sad, sad song for you, Microsoft.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Is that "waste of money" like in beer?
Can "free" be a waste of money...
Seriously, talking to someone like sharp is like talking to a dollar bill-or a stock market. The only thing you can count on them to do is to say things in an attempt to enrich themselves. The thing that is scary: Sharp may actually believe his own material. He really may have believed what he said when he was at Red Hat--and changed those beliefs/judgements when he went to Micro$oft.
The "waste of money" argument does not hold water. Instead of the government earning X% on the profits of closed-source companies, every dollar spent by anyone on OSS development is potentially a dollar the government doesn't need to spend, and that the community does not need to duplicate by spending said dollar.
From the government's point of view, the ROI on OSS is orders of magnitude greater than that of closed-source software.
It's a vastly more efficient utilisation of resources.
'"If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge,"'
-Chris Sharp
translated:
f**ck you all. We're only here for the money.
Sharp, who used to work for Red Hat before joining Microsoft, said building open-source software is a "waste of money" and that a company was in effect giving away its intellectual property, preventing it from getting future benefits. "If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge," he stressed.
Because, of course, Microsoft is sooo concerned about it's potential competitors in the Asian market. "We'd just hate for our competitors to lose profit and stagnate"Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Microsoft lies again in an attempt to protect their monopoly and resulting profit stream.
Film at 11.
And if you want to start a company in this world and make money while giving away source code, go right ahead. Lots of companies are doing just fine that way. It's only the proprietary, lock-em-up, IP theft is a crime!, sign this NDA! crowd that will fall further and further back.
Given that there are the reports of high percentages of windows installations in Asia are pirated (not govt installations you would have to hope though), going from a situation where the end user pays nothing (or next to nothing in the markets for their Windows OS CD) to having to pay something for a legit OS is not gonig to be popular.
This should be a great selling point for the Asian markets for OSS - pay the same price as you've always paid for your software, but get legitimate software.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14
Its NOT funny that he came from Red Hat. It will lend some 'creditability' to his words, in the public's eye.
"See...he had to move to Microsoft to make an income and not work for one of those evil/stupid 'Linux companies'".
Microsoft's marketing machine is in full motion these days, and we are taking a beating beacuse of it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Does it sound to anyone else that this guy is doing his best to sabotage MS in Asia, a la Eastern Standard Tribe?
MS sounds like tired old prostitute complaining about women that give it away.
Open source is a good source of business revenues if you're in a country with cheap labor where you can more or less limitlessly hire support people.
If you're in a country where the labor is more or less expensive, and moreover if your employees are not support people but software engineers, then the financial outlook is questionable. For people and companies not wanting to move into cheap support, but stay in higher-paid research and software development going into open source does not make a whole lot of sense.
The government should care little about the source. They should mandate open standards. If you decide that your document standard will be the OpenOffice Writer XML-based standard, documented and open, then you can use either OpenOffice Writer for that (free) or any closed source utility that will save to desired format, but perhaps offer some other advantages.
I think I have met him once at a RedHat presentation in Sydney - he wasn't terrribly open source centric back then either.
I think it's probabaly a fallacy to think that the RedHat managers are open source evangelists - they are more "executives" than evangelists.
Even the current local RedHat CEO doesn't come across as your typical oss advocate. They are more business driven (perhaps unfortunately - perhaps not, depends on your view).
Jon - TheSpork
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
To propose that sharing code is by nature insecure is saying security can only be achieved through secrecy. It says once you have my windows code, windows is no longer secure.
I think if these guys had any brains they would give away a base version of windows that had enought functionality to be useful.
Jeoin
Big companies and governments lite to hear this sort of thing, they will go for it.
In any case, developers in India will probably be busy for the next several years. Microsoft is an American corporation, as are Nike and Walmart.
Um...I guess we'll need less sysadmins per network. Patching and virus cleanup would be a bit easier, requiring less manpower and less time.
Stability and reliability means less work for the IT industry...thus an economic hit. Saving money is definitely bad for the economy. Whose economy, I'm not sure.
"Funny thing is, the MS executive (Chris Sharp) used to work for Red Hat."
If that's true, that shows how ugly it's.
(just leave out the details of how he corrupted your girl if that's the case...)
;)
Unless you have pictures
From the article: he pointed out that open source giants such as Red Hat and IBM are still after a return on their investments. "They are not for the greater good of the community; they are also after the money," he said.
No kidding? Really? And Microsoft, on the other hand, is only writing software for the good of mankind?
I do not have a signature
After reading this article, it sounds like Microsoft, atleast in the Asia-Pacific region, does not have any advantage in the market over OSS.
Perhaps its about time for Microsoft to realize the playing field has changed and it should figure out (like IBM, Novell, etc..) how to utilize OSS instead of trying to fight it.
a company was in effect giving away its intellectual property, preventing it from getting future benefits
... if you can not use it?
Tell me, Mister Sharp, what good is Intellectual_Property
If the future benefits never arrive because your particular solution has never gained enough market share for you to benefit from it ?
If everybody chose to rather standardize on the Dominant Player's product, because it just is and will be there?
Fight Frist Psoting!
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It depends on what you spend your money on. When you install a copy of Linux, what's your support agreement? The government has to be able to support the software they use, and if they don't have a Linux support agreement then they'll have to pay additional staff to handle those duties. I'm not saying that Microsoft's right in their claims, but you can't just point at the XP=$300, Linux=$0 as evidence that OSS is cheaper or has a higher ROI. It's just not as simple as that.
You can, however, point to hidden costs like the expenses of in-house/outsourced Linux support vs. Microsoft support (those MCSEs bills are expensive!), savings from your enhanced security (the what virus? I guess I didn't get it), and the fact that Microsoft doesn't always produce the best product in a given industry - so you're not tied down to them.
Microsoft, on the other hand, can point to the negative effects on the economy of losing major employers like itself, of removing gov't income (there's no sales tax on free software), and their longevity and reliability (they've been around, and aren't going anywhere soon).
There are two sides... the people with the money will need to examine them both carefully (and hopefully make the right choice).
So, Microsoft is not at all worried about open-source software destroying its market control because they are damaging themselves and no one is using open source anyway.
And this is exactly why Microsoft doesn't make big number of this non-existent piratewarez called Open Source. No one is using it and we are not concerned about that. At all. Please change back to Microsoft and stop using what you don't use already.
He goes on to say that governments planning to use it will damage their own economies and that giving away source code is shooting yourself in the foot. Though I distinctly remember a few hundred government PCs running Windows 2000 going offline for days this summer in Philadelphia City Hall after MS Blast was first rampid, while all Linux boxes were fine. If practically "self-imposing" a shot, to continue the analogy, isn't what occured by the government using Windows boxes unpatched, fully aware of their dangers, then I don't know what is. Also, IIRC, most Gov Linux distros are heftly modified;governemts are smart enough to not just run a freshly-downloaded distro. Matter of fact, the NSA developed their own Linux distro which highyly encorporates VMware, which I was a bit ago.
Actually, I think that certain products, like software, are helper technologies that increase overall productivity. To make a distinction, if you could get, say, a coffee table for free, then maybe you're hurting the coffee table industry, but if you can get software for free, and people use the software to be more productive, then having a wider spread use of the software because it's free is a good thing.
Coffee tables, on the other hand, tend not to increase anybody's productivity.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
When you install a copy of Linux, what's your support agreement?
Have you ever actually tried to get Microsoft to support their product as part of the purchase price?
He's being paid to publicly bend the truth to the very border of deceit. If that doesn't make him a "greedy bastard", I don't know what does.
Really? Huh. So tell me again... as a Microsoft marketing strategist, when you look at me, what do you see?
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you, (we are here)
then you win.
-- Mahatma Ghandi
ps: I don't claim originality to this post. I've read it previously in slashdot. But it is appropriate to this story, and that's why I'm posting it anonimously.
In my part of SE Asia, piracy must be a very powerful ally of M$. People have grown so accustomed to M$ products and proggies running on windows 'cos they know where they can get them - and they've all been so "trained" in them cos of their "availability". And I would think that much of the general comp literacy in the region is due to this ally - I wouldn't be surprised if M$ sees this region as rather "safe" since Linux is kind of a "hardcore" "server" "alternative" solution.
oh yes i must also mention that after all those years of "free education", M$ started "cleaning up" several years back. Talk about traitors.
No. What is this? They are trying to save Governments from themselves, yet at the same time, collect a profit? I mean, really, what place does MS have, WHY would MS care what the Chinese government does, unless it's effecting Microsoft's business? MS is not some independant party. They aren't stupid. I can see the blank Chinese faces right now, just sort of staring at Sharp and waiting for him to leave.
And by God, if anyone can recognize a waste of a customer's money it's Microsoft!
Again, MS is marketing the theory that goverment should be run by a capitalistic philosophy, for PROFIT. Where "the good for the people" comes out of that philosophy I do not know yet (cause I'm poor).
The thing you have to ask yourself is if MS were a buggy whip manufacturer facing competition from cheap automobiles, do your pro arguments make sense? For my part, closed-up jack-booted-thugs-may-ensure-EULA-compliance software is already unacceptable to me. MS' marketing machine likes to talk about OSS liability and promote themselves as the "safe" choice. A PHP coding site I was looking at today had one of those SPA pitches to disgruntled employees.
Even one SPA audit kills any number of the "advantages" they're touting; they always find something and they always extort something from you. The time your business is effectively shut down is costly too.
For many categories of software, MS' methods are outmoded. Now the buggy whip manufacturers need to buy and cajole their way out of the jam they're going to be in.
All that and well, MS complaining that FOSS is anticompetitive is pretty rich. You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.....
Yeah, but some people need it spelled out apparently.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
So their govts are cracking down on piracy! They're choosing software that everybody can afford so they won't have to pirate anymore!!! Remember, they ARE COMMUNISTS [for all those who call GPL Lovers commies] and most of SE asia is mildly socialist anyway due to the serious problems of overpopulation and feeding everyone.
...they just don't get it.
They don't get it? Hell, I'm the one that doesn't get it! What is it beyond the 50 billion(not that this money actually exists) in the bank that they want?? This is all very psychotic to me. Dudes, cash out, hit the Riviera, French, Mexican, Mayan, whatever. They must be doing this for a good laugh, watching us wetting our pants everytime they speak. There's just no other reason. Maybe it's some "wag the dog" thing. What are they distracting us from?
What?
One minor quibble. Microsoft doesn't create standards, they impose them.
At least it's good for the US's economy. M$ is basically funnelling money from around the world back into the US, which has a lot to do with why the rest of the world (at least EU, Latin America and Asia) are so hyped about an alternative. Especially nowadays with Bush increasing anti-American sentiment like never before seen.
In that sense if a non-programmer wants to help the FOSS movement then translating a how-to, a man page or something else is a great way.
[i]You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.....[/i]
They shouldn't walk around naked?
(couldn't resist, sorry, _not_ funny)
Isn't it ironic that Microsoft has allowed two projects, WTL and WiX, to be released under the CPL? Evidently these have little value to the company (and by extension, the developer's are not valued.)
This is more FUD coming out of Microsoft, but that is stating the redundant.
Fsck...too many LQBB postings lately. Please excuse the mark-up. I hope everyone understands what I meant with those tags :P
Ofcourse Microsoft says it's bad, the Govt picking OSS over them means less money for them. I don't think there will be an qualms from the tax payers though, certianly I won't be upset to see Microsoft get out of the U.S. government. Just FUD that's all it is.
Product C will give you cancer because it is better then us!
:)
Coca Cola is made from babies! It is evil ban it!
Linux is made from sacrificing penguins in a Satanic ritual.
Heard it all before, probably will again. Nice try Microsoft but, we perfer our bullshit in sarcasm at slashdot.
--- [Insert intresting Sig here]
Of course free software is attractive to governments in Asia, South America, Africa, etc, etc, etc. Every dollar saved on the cost of a desktop OS or database server is a dollar that can be spent on health care, education, etc. You know - those pesky issues that ordinary people care about more than "How much richer is Bill today?".
Microsoft seems to be operating under the delusion that the only thing a government should care about is growing a local software industry. Heaven forbid that they have other priorities.
Lest we forget, Microsoft has at least one OpenSource project. While copyright, and restricted use, microsoft has many, many example source programs on MSDN as well. Not GPL, but certainly open (as in viewable and modifiable) source.
They are just throwing up their arms in exaperation because they just don't get it. They will,..soon enough
Or they won't, and they'll just keep persecuting and exploiting the general population ad infinitum.
Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
MS seems to fairly regularly confuse say "this is good/bad for consumers" when it really means "this is good/bad for Microsoft". Do they knowingly take MS-internal-only presentations and show them to the public as normal business?
A statement such as "With open source, there is no way to make more software" may make sense to a bunch of coders inside of Microsoft, but it's so obviously stupid outside of that context that it doesn't even survive cursory analysis.
Could they actually define at what point this "no way to make more software" statement has/will kick in? Was it after Linux was released in 1991? After Apache was released a year or so later? Maybe OOo was the last piece of software that could be produced? Is it happening right now, and the code that's being developed at the moment can't be finished? Maybe it's in the future sometime; I'd really like to know the date that it's gonna occur so I can get into another industry beforehand.
Idiots
Mid-size and large companies often have support agreements (for a hefty price, but it's usually effective) with Microsoft. Call 'em up, get a person, and sometimes you'll get a fix just for your problem. Kinda makes you wonder what drives their patches - the future implications and risks, or the immediate buck behind the phone call?
Annonymous Coward: You are completely fucking delusional.
LOL! Out of the mouths of 'babes'!
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Yes it is. Linux does in fact = $0. Microsoft just doesn't want you to see it that way, and they succeeded.
The government has to be able to support the software they use, and if they don't have a Linux support agreement then they'll have to pay additional staff to handle those duties
Instead of paying MS for support? What's the difference? Supporting Linux yourself for your needs could be a lot cheaper than MS supporting your business for you. Cut out the middle man.
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
A good question is whether or not it is actually bending the truth. Think for a moment, what is better for you ( universal you ) the paid programmer frightened of outsourcing or what-not, commercial or free software? closed or opened? There is a interesting if not valid point hidden in the propaganda, you just need to deal with that point.
wait a minute!
when you install your copy of XP professional where is your support agreement...
YOU DONT HAVE ONE. Microsoft does not profide free support when you buy their OS you have to pay for support. JUST LIKE LINUX.
I dont know where this myth that microsoft OS has syupport built in comes from but everyone in the business that works with MS operating systems knows that MS support comes with a very large price tag and is never EVER free.
XP=$300.00 PLus a support agreement price... Linux= $0.00 plus a support agreement price..
even if Mandrake or Suse/Novell support was the same price as MS support (it isn't... it's cheaper) you are STILL ahead by $300.00 + the cost of the Office Suite + the cost of the server seat licenses + the cost of the assorted support software that comes free with the linux distro and is supported by the linux vendor.
the cost of support that is supposedly attached to linux is also there for Windows. nobody ever seems to mention that... or they somehow forget that HUGE bill they pay to MS for that support agreement they signed.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
in related news, health food causes cancer, according to a McDonalds spokesperson
A computer without Microsoft is like ice cream without ketchup.
Here's is a google cache copy of an interview that Chris Sharp gave just before the release of Red Hat 8 touting that RHCE are the highest trained professionals in IT.
This space for rent. Contact for our rates.
He did make one good point. "People tend to believe it is free, he said, but even companies that support open source are just as motivated by commercial interests as any other commercial software vendor." But so what? Is a MS executive really complaining about companies wanting to make money?
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
"Yes, yes, you Americans have very large penis!"
.. then duly ignore the stupid American who is trying to tell them how to run their country and go off and do precisely whatever it was that they intended to do before the stupid American started mouthing off.
I just love the way Asian folks do business. It varies a bit from country to country of course, but generally, they'll make a nice polite show of pretending to give a shit about the rubbish the stupid American is spouting, then go quietly back to whatever they were doing before, unmoved. It's fun to watch the religous types pushing their word in Chinatown anywhere. The victims listen politely, nod and smile, and go on their way. The religious types read the situation to mean that because (a) no-one told them to f*ck right off, and (b) someone nodded and smiled at them, that they're getting their message through. This is why Chinatown precincts are always more clogged with religous freaks than elsewhere in any given city.
Here in Sydney, Australia it's generally the Morons pushing their false religion with their stilted crash-course Chinese. They're incapable of picking what nationality any given Asian person is, so they try to talk to everyone in Mandarin Chinese (very few people actually speak Mandarin here in Sydney, it's a predominantly Cantonese thing here). It's amusing to wander along 10 metres behind them, watching them greet random people with their "Ni Hao" and a big cheesy smile and all the wrong intonations, and watch the victims return the greeting with a polite nod and smile, then crack up laughing once the Morons (mormons?) have passed!
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
What is it beyond the 50 billion(not that this money actually exists) in the bank that they want?? This is all very psychotic to me. Dudes, cash out, hit the Riviera, French, Mexican, Mayan, whatever. They must be doing this for a good laugh, watching us wetting our pants everytime they speak. There's just no other reason. Maybe it's some "wag the dog" thing. What are they distracting us from?
It's about power. Maybe a little about accomplishment. Doubtful that the customer is as important as a person as as a worshipper.
"You'd eat shit,
and say it tasted good,
If there was some money in it for ya."
-- Dirt
I don't like SPF. It's a kludgey answer to a problem that generally affects a lot of protocols and needs a better, more general answer that isn't tied to the centralized domain name infrastructure.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
"He goes on to say that governments planning to use it will damage their own economies and that giving away source code is shooting yourself in the foot."
Well it'd shoot Microsoft in the foot as they wouldn't have a competitive edge. But the gov't isn't in the software business.
I'm not exactly anti-MS, but this comment isn't very persuasive.
"Derp de derp."
I guess it isn't funny but it sort of works too. Its not as though what they're up to with funding SCO, buying Linux user groups pizza parties, shnozzling politicos, and keeping a stable of pet "journalists" isn't obvious.
And MS doesn't damage the economy? Sending all your money to the US? I don't mean to troll but wouldn't it be better for an economy (not to mention more struggling ones) to hire a some local, that way your currency can stay within your country.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
LOL! Thanks!
"If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge," he stressed.
Now that is definately not what jesus would do...
How can a company run by such a benevolent man see fit to spread such FUD?
There aren't as many resources for Linux? There are MANY, MANY resources for linux. You do have to have a slight idea of what you're doing, but once you have that, you can find anything you want. Google works VERY well, as does HOW-TO's on www.tlpd.org . If you go to a project's homepage, you can often find support there, or a mailing list. There are PLENTY of resources for linux, saying otherwise means you don't know what you're talking about.
Sending money to Redmond, Washington, United States does not help your economy, unless you are in Redmond, or to a lesser degree in Washington State.
It's good for the economy when things like steel and coal and fabric gets cheaper, because it means a better standard of living for consumers. Businesses also become more efficient; when their raw material costs go down, they either make more money or drop prices, both of which are good for the local economy.
So if cheaper steel is good, why on earth is cheaper software bad?
But Microsoft is trying to assert that if you wnt any chance of growing your own Microsoft, you need a strong IP regime.
But the simple fact is that there will be no new Microsofts. The existing one will make very sure of that. Only people who completely change the rules and play a different game entirely can hope to succeed against a compaany with half the money in the world.
If your local economy actually DID 'hit gold' and come up with a wonderful new software idea, it's virtually certain that Microsoft would simply subsume it into Windows. This has happened many times over the last twenty years; Microsoft has put company after company out of business by leveraging Windows. (Stacker, Quarterdeck, Lotus 1-2-3, Netscape... the list goes on and on.) The Windows software ecosystem has very little diversity; there are a few big companies and a lot of small ones, but very very few midsize ones. The sharks eat them instead and get bigger.
In other words, with Microsoft already existing in the world, the chance of creating your own local Microsoft is ZERO. The creation of the closed source software industry was a very special event that will only happen once; it will not be repeated.
There can still be small software niches, of course, ones that are too small for Microsoft to bother with. But if you grant that you most likely can't make huge piles of money, why not give away the code for free and sell services and support instead?
As a government, why not encourage consulting-type technology businesses like this? Service businesses can make very comfortable amounts of money. While they don't have the huge potential upside of being able to sell, over and over again, a product that costs them nothing to duplicate, they don't really have that upside ANYWAY because of Microsoft. The open-source industry is still forming, and there's lots and lots of room for new companies.
If you REALLY want to help your economy out, get behind open source and PUSH. Your local government spending $5,000/year for local companies to support and fix their Linux servers is a HELL of a lot better for your economy than is sending a check to Microsoft. Money that goes to Redmond is gone; money that is spent locally stays in your local economy.
Now, if Microsoft offered solutions that were wildly better than their open-source counterparts, it might make financial and economic sense to buy Windows. If you can be twice as productive, say, on a Windows box, and the total cost of Windows is less than twice that of Linux, then it's an overall win to buy Windows. I'm setting aside control and forced upgrade issues, along with many others, but economics is ultimately about cost, and you can abstract all those factors into cost of ownership.
But if, as I believe, Windows' overall advantage over Linux is slim at best, then it's just wasteful to send money to Redmond when you can spend it locally instead.
There's one other scenario, too... you may be so technically savvy you that you don't NEED support. In that case, you you can drop your computing cost to ZERO. This is STILL better for the local economy, because that $200 you don't send to Redmond is money you can spend at the county fair.
In a world with free alternatives, paying for Windows is very much like a tax. Taxes are always harmful (at least directly) to an economy, because it's wasted money...profit that didn't get reinvested.
I've lost track, was that the study Microsoft did, or the one they paid for or both?
Uhm, actually no. Mozilla IS netscape, just a few genereations and a name change later, with much more added to it. And the relationship between Open Office and Star Office is mostly the same.
The exception being the one about Unix. Wich is not to good a point as Linux is a POSIX compliant os same as Unix.
Of course you are almost certainly a 3rd rate troll, or just possibly a employee of a comercial company threatened by OSS who failed to do his/her research and is now sitting there with egg on his face.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Also for Asian countries, governments should consider that money spent for Microsoft is headed out of their country. Instead if the governments spend a little more for locally-based individuals to support open source software, that money is being taxed by the government and being recycled in the local economy. Only if open source solutions were drastically more expensive, which is a flimsy argument to make, would spending money on Microsoft products be fiscally responsible.
my blog
even before they thought of it:
Follow the links and strengthen the case. It's been a while.
-- Free software on every PC on every desk
Seriously, selling products for less in other countries encourages businesses to leave the united states.
I can't blame a company who outsources work to another country because its less expensive.
I can BLAME an American company who intentionally lowers prices in other countries and rapes us here in the states.
Im starting to think it's just all anti microsoft FUD
Windows is open source also, well not legally, but now it is :) I guess everyone running windows should do what Microsoft said and shoot yourself in the foot now. Bill Gates should shoot himself in the head.
If I stop sending my money to redmond, will it grow mold and get stale?
No Bill, I'll find somewhere else to spend it. Perhaps down town at the restaurant, Maybe a tread mill from Dick's Sports. I could get my lawn treated. I could spend money on my local economy supporting jobs just like mine. Everyone wins but you bill.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
It's more accurate to say that Microsoft becomes the standard.
resigned
Their claims will only get weirder until either MSFT finally gets it, adapts, or dies.
It makes me grin whenever these ludicrous press releases come out of Microsoft. Don't get angry when they spew this crap. Don't even get annoyed. Just smile knowingly, nod, and keep on telling people about the Better Way. If Microsoft does its marketing job well enough, their influence will diminish considerably.
Sharp added that there are several myths surrounding open source. People tend to believe it is free, he said, but even companies that support open source are just as motivated by commercial interests as any other commercial software vendor. Apparently undermining his initial assertion about open-source ruining local software efforts, he pointed out that open source giants such as Red Hat and IBM are still after a return on their investments. "They are not for the greater good of the community; they are also after the money," he said.
So what he's saying is that doing both is no better than just doing the one?
He then contradicted himself again, adding that without getting back any commercial returns, a software company will find it difficult to invest in developing new software products. Intellectual property rights fuel sustained innovation, was his point. "With open source, there is no way to make more software."
WTF? He at least has to have heard of Mozilla...
This aggressive if confused approach comes after months of determined effort by the software giant to prevent Linux taking over as the de facto operating system in the world's largest expanding software market.
Months? Try years....
FUD.
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
'"If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge,"'
-Chris Sharp
This statement is absolutely spot on. After all, what benefits could possibly come from sharing information and knowledge?
The same argument should be used to end the cheap/free distribution of HIV drugs in Africa. After all, who benefits from research into saving lives if those lives are saved without reasonable profit margins?
In fact we should put an immediate end to free condom distrubution, because somebody had to work very hard indeed to come up with the design of the resevoir tip. Nobody benefits from condoms, especially free ones.
Libraries should also be dismantled and the books therein burned. If you want the information, you should have to buy the books, because otherwise nobody benefits.
As a former teacher of English in the developing world I am appaled at my own past behaviour of occasionally offering language instruction for free. Clearly nobody at all has benefited from this compulsion to 'give back to the community'.
I fully agree with Mr Sharp (with his delightfully descriptive name) that all information should be propriatary.
If someone wants to know, for example, how I am on any given day, I simply tell them that the information belongs to me, but I offer a range of scalable licensing plans to allow access to that information. Who could possibly benefit from me saying 'I am well' without proper remuneration?
Unsecure research, open communication, and 'giving back to the community' have done nothing since the beginning of time except stifle innovation and harm consumers' interests.
As a result of my new dedication to Knowlege (TM), I am pleased to offer the following innovative products that no consumer can do without:
I Am Well (TM)
Making Fire (TM)
Boiling Leaves to Make a Tasty Beverage (TM)
Conveying Heavy Objects More Easily with Narrow Cylinders (TM)
Making Pleasing Sounds by Striking Membranes under Tension (TM)
Futher products are in developent.
Forget the prostitute analogy. MS's argument is more like the marriage argument: "sure, you can get free sex now, when you're young and there's plenty of people who will do it for fun. But what about later, when it's not just for fun anymore? Don't you want to get your sex as part of a sustainable long-term relationship?"
I'm not sure I agree with their argument (open source looks pretty sustainable to me), but it's not really about $$$-versus-no-$$$. It's about the nature of long-term commitments.
You are right. I think a good study would be one that took into account how open-source actually affects the economy. As I use open-source mainly because I don't want to pir8, I would not pay the gobs of money that equivalent software demands esp for home use.
My guess would be that open-source people are those who cant afford the closed-source equivalents and those who dont want to steal it as well as those aiming to be l33t.
Another good study would be how many of those outsourcing companies in other countries use pirated software. Here are some stats:
Now the cost of piracy in Canada is similar to that of India. I can imagine that this is due to home users. How many people in India have a home computer? Where does the pirated software end up then?
This is not an attack on any of those countries. Just that sensible people would think about these issues
I do think there are some valid questions about the sustainability of a sector that depends on giving stuff away for free. Note: Open-source!=free beer :) I also think that there is a nice balance between closed source and open source.
that makes it difficult to use another plumber or add fixtures from another comapny, is pure evil, and plain greedy. A plumber who does good work for a fair price, using agreed standards so the next plumber can easily find his way around the job, and so that off the shelf fixtures bolt right on, is worth his service fee.
It doesn't matter what Microsoft says. Microsoft is not going to beat linux _or_ the BSDs. This is not a fight to be won by marketing droids. The decision to use, or not to use, will be made by hard-ball CIOs and CFOs. Open source is good software; in most cases it is the best software of it's kind. It is inevitable that businesses will use it. Those decision makes that don't use it will be taken care of by the darwinian marketplace and the not-so-stupid managers that don't want to waste their company's money.
Microsoft is stalling for time while they build a new OS that uses the incredible security and power of *nix AND the incredible product branding they've built up with Windows. Look at what crap Windows is. Remember Schwinn? Microsoft is dissing *nix while feverishly copying it and hiding the result under the Windows UI with the hood screwed shut. The BSD license would let them do this. Just like Mr. Jobs did. (At least he's giving back a bit.)
Don't be fooled. Bill Gates is a technological idiot. But he's a very, very dangerous business adversary. People should be using linux and the BSDs not because they're free (in either sense of the word), but because they're the best damn software in the world. That's the message businesses will listen to. Price is farther down their list.
I remember the uncomfortably look I got in a hotel meetingroom in Bloomington, Minnesota back in about 1997 when the 'Red Hat' representatives showed up for a presentation. They were all uncomfortably suited folks, and we were the unwashed hacker masses.
I further remember the uncomfortable look I got when I asked the pantsuited sales lady if it was okay if I made copies of my Red Hat 5.0 CDs to share with friends.
resigned
How many engineering standards can be traced back to a well-positioned, politically adept, corporation with plausible technical arguments and even greater marketing clout?
Think of the near fifty-year dominance of american broadcasting by David Sarnoff and RCA.
Honorable officals, as you can see FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD Open Source FUD FUD This simply can't be the case! FUD FUD FUD We must stand up against this and FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD You're wasting your money on these people who don't know what.. FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD Here have some cash oh and some FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD
I'm trying to argue both sides here - but Microsoft does offer free support and such free, comprehensive Linux support doesn't exist.
Microsoft could make the argument that it would be more expensive to use Linux because you'd have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in staff to support Linux, their office space, their benefits, etc. Creating an IS team that doesn't exist is expensive, no doubt about it. That's one reason that many companies buy MS support.
MS also plays the training/implementation card - switching users from Win98 to Linux is hard. Switching your whole network is even harder. And expensive. With all the costs built in, over the long run, MS can easily convince a government panel that their software will be cheaper. They're not lacking in clever excuses.
YOU DONT HAVE ONE
That's a good strawman, but he never actually claimed that there was a support agreement with XP. If I was pushed to make a guess, I would guess that it would be cost neutral supporting Linux over MS. I think you'd take a hit somewhere in there purely on volume - MS can do lower prices for support over more contracts where Linux doesn't have that luxury (yet). That will probably change in the future.
Governments are in a position to establish vendor neutral specs that could dominate the industry. If the IRS established XML specs for tax forms (rather than letting Intuit or another vendor dictate proprietary formats as the standards) then they can drive real competetion for good software that implements the standards. If this sort of thing expands it could make communication of data about patents, censuses, and parking tickets as easy to find as looking up a zip code is online today.
Governments don't seem to recognize that by giving power to the little dictators and their proprietary products they are ceding their own power as the neutral referee and protector of their people.
Linux distro ISO = $0
Training employees = $50,000
Adding Linux support staff = $150,000/year
Office space for new staff = $300,000
Overhead for new offices = $40,000/year
Microsoft is expensive, yes. Adding their support is really expensive. But if you think Linux = $0, no strings attached (or that any system is), then you're obviously not thinking from the perspective of the people with the money. And if you are the person with the money, let us know so we can be sure to sell your stock ASAP.
Giving up mod points (and postings as AC)...
Having lived near Redmond (and while working for MS) I can tell you that Redmond (and WA in general) do not get much from MS. Certainly while I was living there (up to 2000) the almost total gridlock around the MS campus caused Redmond considerable problems. Also through various means MS avoided giving much money to the city.
Incidentally this also applied back then to Boeing, who managed to avoid the full property tax on their sites.
WA was in serious trouble from lack of money - the huge cash pile that MS has doesn't seem to help the local economy much.
Must've been used to buy them off, cause the 'best' sure aren't writing the code!
So What? I have heard open-source advocates contradict themselves much worse, and even resort to spouting misinformed opinions when it suits their needs. It isn't that Open Source or Microsoft are inherently good or evil. Both worlds are full of unselfish and selfish people. You have to take everything with a grain of salt.
So... the Linux alternative to support.microsoft.com is: Google, scattered sites with information of varying accuracy, individual project homepages, mailing lists, IRC channels, and newsgroups.
.WMV for his class?
I know how to get the info I need... but does the $25,000/yr help desk consultant? How about the secretary that needs to figure out how to change her computer's wallpaper? Or the professor that wants to play a
I think the problem is due to the large number of distros, the non-standard OS setups, and dissenting opinions within the Linux community. How do you create a comprehensive Linux support site if you don't know what to support?
Look at it from the perspective of a University IT department: which desktop environment(s) should you support? Which command shell environment? How about office suite? Or graphics package? Media players?
Relying on open source has its benefits... but there are problems that they'll be skeptical about. And support is one of them - not only from the OS provider, but within your own organization. It's a huge problem even for Microsoft-based companies.
Payware has nothing to do with going to peoples houses and charging for setting computers up and free software has nothing to do with going to peoples houses and setting up things for free. What it is about is creating a single design that may be copied for free or for money. This replication takes an amount of effort bordering around zero, plumbing however takes quite a lot of effort from the tradesman in each instalation.
This debate is about information, this is why comparisons with other trades will not work. The only part of plumbing that software can really be compared to is the basic design. In software this basic design changes with every competing product, with plumbing this basic design has been in place since the third palace of Knossos in Crete was built with running hot and cold water and some semblance of flushing toilets in around 1700 B.C. In plumbing this basic design of tap valves, manifolds, U-bends and O-rings is available to everyone. In software, many people seek to restrict the usage of their own basic designs to those who have payed for it. Plumbers don't hide their information, and software engineers are not expected to install their information on people's PCs. This is why your comparison and similar comparisons are wholly invalid and frankly getting quite tiring and repetitive.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Make sure your government KNOWS that you want YOUR tax dollars to support things that are not only cheap, but good quality and create a job market by creating support and development jobs with all that money they save by NOT buying MS software!
If my government makes something with MY money, it should be open/free for at least the people who payed for it.... Not pay a 3rd party who is funding campaigns so they can get an exclusive deal.
It would be cheaper to simply hire some inhouse IT people to support and develop software than it is to pay outside...and multiple cities and governments can collaborate.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
If you could duplicate pipes in your toolbox, on demand and at no cost then I would certainly not expect to be charged for them. But I would pay the plumber to put all of the pipe sections together into a cohesive system, and then keep it in working order. Alternately...
===---===
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
A few years ago I was one of a bunch of religious freaks who hit Sydney's Chinatown. Fantastic location. We didn't pretend to speak Chinese--in fact, we did our thing with some simple street theatre and a couple of really cool dance routines. We had a crowd of people watching, and some of the local businesses even gave us lunch because we were getting business for them!
If anyone wanted to talk about what we had presented, that was up to them. If people wanted to watch the concert and leave, that was fine too. We did the same thing in King's Cross and Darling Harbour.
What wrecked it was the freaks who followed us. The moment they started with their fake Chinese and bible bashing, people ran. We actually gave away over a hundred Bibles that day, and people seemed pleased with what they got. These other idiots didn't get to base one.
The moral of the story is that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. We said what we had to say in a non-confrontational way, and moved on. Everyone was happy. Go out of your way to offend, and end up going backwards.
This applies to the Linux evangelists as well as anything else. I can't stand Windows or anything else by MS (apart from their mice!) But I've found the easiest way to get people thinking about changing over to the Light Side is to use Linux, maybe show off a little bit, and know what the differences are. When people get interested, I can explain the benefits, and give them a copy of Knoppix. Easy. By treating people as human beings instead of targets to be hit everyone benefits.
Cogito, ergo sig.
Microsoft's value proposition is product based, i.e. sell lots of units of software product to make profit.
:-). I won't go political.
OSS value proposition is service based. Give the software away, and provide services, consulting etc. to help companies deploy and use the software. Companies may get support from either internal and/or external resources - either way they cost $.
Note: You still need services for product based vendors.
IBM (and others) have a hybrid model, services and software product sales. IBM get much more revenue from services than they do from software product. Interestingly, IBM will heavily discount there products (80%) in competetive situtaions - guess what? they want the service revenue!
Which model wins in the long run? The market will eventually sort that out.
Assuming that a service based model wins, then product oriented companies will fail: Which is why M$ are poohing their pants on this issue.
The basic economic free market model for OSS assumes a service based model. In fact for OSS to really work, it needs a really free market. Software patents are a really big risk for OSS, praticularly where the granted patent is for the trivial (one click, scroll bars, progress bars etc.)
Now we talk free market - we get political (where are Stallman and Raymeond when u need them
You want a signature? You can't handle a signature!!
I'm trying to argue both sides here - but Microsoft does offer free support and such free, comprehensive Linux support doesn't exist.
I call bullshit.
Microsoft's knowledge base is nice, yes, but honestly, it's there out of strict necessity. And it's not as good as Google anyway. For both Linux and Windows, Google is the way to go.
If you have a real problem with Windows, it won't be on support.microsoft.com, it'll be on Google. Probably Google Groups. And probably with a bunch of people with titles like "Microsoft MVP" chiming in with their two pence, all wrong and clueless. Guess why? Because nobody knows how the software works. And these real problems don't get solved.
How do you solve the problems? By calling up Microsoft. They'll charge you hundreds of dollars, to be refunded if they decide it's a bug in their software. You will be on hold for hours on end, and their support is far from helpful.
I spent over six months with Microsoft support on a single issue a few years ago; I still see the problem today, so their solution obviously didn't work, but we just learn to live with the problem.
More recently we experienced a bug with Windows 2000 Server SP4; it just kept rebooting randomly. Turns out this stems from a fix of a vulnerability in SP3 and below. Microsoft support was useless and to my knowledge they haven't actually fixed the new bug. Google Groups, on the other hand, helped us find the problem (we just use SP3 now, vulnerability and all).
I've set up GNU/Linux in mission-critical situations. When problems come up, IRC or Google or Google Groups has always had the answer. The three have a combined 100% track record. Why? Because the developers listen, and if not, you can always look at the source code. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to find the problem in the source code going by nothing more than an error message.)
In my experience, GNU/Linux support costs all of $0. But if I had a scary manager who wanted support, I could always recommend one of the zillions of companies selling Linux support. I doubt any would be as good as newsgroups, but they can't hurt. They'd certainly be more helpful than Microsoft, since in my experience Microsoft support is nothing more than a waste of time and patience.
Plus your time. What does that cost your employer?
I'd largely agree with your post, but your employer pays you for your expertise. If that costs, say, $50k pa, then that's part of the cost of supporting Linux.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
.. then duly ignore the stupid American who is trying to tell them how to run their country and go off and do precisely whatever it was that they intended to do before the stupid American started mouthing off.
Unless the stupid American happens to be Microsoft, who is quite fluent in the international language that everyone know$. And I'm not talking about love, smarta$$. Frankly, I wonder if MS will be reduced to bribes/unrefuseable deals of the sort they used to lure Gross and Hejlsberg in order to prevent foreign governments from defecting to Linux. They already offer major sweetheart pricing/licensing terms to such governments; how long will it be before various governments (and corporations) refuse even that, forcing MS to take whatever next step they deem appropriate?
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
The folks at M$ actually believe this crap! So they keep spreading this RGB (rumor, gossip, & bullshit).
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
A plumber who charges for their work is not evil.
A plumber who will not relinquish control of the pipes is.
Would you pay an architect who wouldn't allow you see the blueprints for the building?
It's not about "All plumbing should be done for free." As usual, the meanings of free allow this reversal in English. It's about freedom, and that has nothing to do with not paying people for their work.
As long as there are programs that need to be written, then programmers will have jobs.
The enemies of Democracy are
Personally, I raised (via my employer's support team) one bug with MS, in 1994, and I can't even remember what it was, just that the answer was "tough - that's how it is". For history's sake, I wish I'd made a note.
Support is a really strange thing - on one hand, you've got the users who say "fsck support, it works!" and on the other, you've got people who say "I don't care if it 'just works', I want someone to cover my ass if it doesn't work!"
For those people, support is worth megabucks.
These people who will pay megabucks for support will also live without functionality (eg, SATA drive support, WiFI, etc) for supportability.
I heard recently of a Gov't who nearly went back on a known-working cluster config because one of the (3+) vendors involved didn't explicitly support it (they'd not got around to testing it, although the other 2 vendors had tested it).
Support is a strange creature, which must be endured, but also understood.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
In most other circumstances I would agree that open source is a bad thing. But destroying the software marketplace is unfortunately the only way to free us from Microsoft's monopoly.
In other words, they're saying that in order to protect the US economy the Government needs to, pay excessively for the software it is using and tie the rest of industry to an ageing software development model and its Monopoly vendor to the detrement of competition.
Yup, that looks like a recipe for a healthy economy, if you live in Redmond. It would screw the rest of the country and damage our international competitiveness.
Look, the very fact that Microsoft is pitching this to the government means it cannot win on fair terms and it knows it. Surely is Microsoft believed it's own story on TCO lobbying government to eliminate the competition wouldn't be required.
Actually, it's about appeasing the shareholders. Shareholders always want more.
Support Agreement!!!?????
It doesn't matter how much money you pay to Microsoft, Sandeep and Li and Chung don't know the answer. Some of them give the impression they have never owned a computer.
At least with Linux it is theoretically possible to get an answer to any question. With Windows, you will never talk to someone who has seen the source code, no matter how much you pay.
Not only do no MS tech support people see source code, apparently, but they wouldn't know how to understand it if they did.
Incorrect.
They embrace, extend, and extinguish them.
what country are you from? this one is run by oil cartels and ashcroftian neo-nazi facism.
and what, with the speed the gov't implements new technologies and standards we'll just leap ahead by bounds all the other tech saavy nations
*cough*
Yes. I realized. M$ you please do it for me.
Thought that would get your attention :)
Let me explain my reasoning:
Ok, initially, the majority of open source development was dev support based (libraries, support and development applications...and a few OSes). However now there is a plethora of open source work being done in the application domain. Writing open source applications puts companies out of business. I'm not arguing if that's right or wrong yet, just stating fact. I write an application, sell it...someone comes along and starts giving it away...I go out of business (generally).
So, where does selfish come into it. One developer, who doesn't have to worry about the other parts of software development (administration, quality control, iso certification etc) because he's giving his product away, develops a product simply for the glory of it and maybe some cash in support money. If the application get's big, maybe he makes enough money to be well off from support and on the conference circuit.
Now, if he'd had the courage to take a chance and develop his software as a going concern...and it took off...he would be building something bigger than himself. A company that supplies income to many, perhaps even 1000s one day, employees and their families. But instead, he puts a company out of business (or at the least reduces market share)...all for his glory he puts 100s of families out of work. Sounds pretty selfish to me.
p.s. I'm now a microsoft nut, and do contribute regularly to several open source projects (library projects). I just think open sourcing applications of every variety is going to end up killing our industry
I thought I read fairly recently that custom software development for specific businesses was still the largest paying sector in the IT world in the US. Open standards mean more jobs for us slashdot nerds! Case in point: I wrote the first version of the Quality Assurance database at my work in VB because I already knew it, and it was fast and easy. I got promoted (largely because of my badass database!) and got my own desk and everything! Guess what, that desk had it's own computer, I wouldn't want to piss off the BSA, and I certainly didn't want to buy another copy of VB (one of the techs was making nicer UI's for the DB so I couldn't just uninstall) so I went python(I friggin love that lang BTW) and now I am writing version 3.0(don't ask) entirely in Python and it will friggin rock. I could confidently say that open source software has not only provided me with the tools to be incredibly productive, but given my employer a productivity boost to go along with it.(we used to write the test data on paper and have the night tech enter it into an Access DB which took at least an hour a night) Not to mention that it will ensure that some python kiddie gets a job when I leave. How could this possibly be a bad thing???
When all the microsofties have put in their twenty years, and cashed their stock options in, that cash reserve will ensure that the stock price does not go down. That means that microsoft can live for about a decade after the original programmers retire, before it collapses. The hope is that before that decade is over, microsoft will have such a grip on software, that they won't go out of business.
Amber
Wind Beneath Thy Wings
and lets not forget how easy it is to get cracked/pirated versions of everything
if the BSA or anyone else actually enforced the anti-piracy laws OSS would take off like a rocket.
naturally i'm glda they don't, and M$'s more or less lax stance (they've disabled all of what, a handful of the most pirated keys?)
suggests they aren't entirely blind to the fact that most of their market dominance has been due the proliferation of free and highly discounted products as well as getting in bed with universities and whatnot...
what they have in place is only good enough to stop joe six pack in teh USA who doesn't really care what percentage of the price of his new dell the OS constitutes and who gets stuck with a shitty home version of xp
Open standards haven't won out so far. IE still has over 90% of the market and barely support CSS2. Outlook rules corporate e-mail. Most mail software doesn't try to be something better than Outlook, it just tries to be compatable on a different platform or with less cost. CIFS/SMB rules basic networking, while the Samba team tries to figure out the protocol that even MS doesn't know. Where have the open standards won out?
None of the above is a good thing, but it's how it is right now.
The thing that surprised me most about his arguments is that he was making pro-capitalist, anti-communist statements in China.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
this is typically a job for real-time OSes like QNX or, at the very least, BSD.
(Dear mods.. this isn't intended as flame-bait.)
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Uhhh... The MS version costs in my time as well. I sit on phone waiting for help, listening to elevator music, while my employer is paying me X per hour to do absolutely nothing. On the other hand, I could be browsing the web looking for answers and clues, get support from IRC or USEnet, and learn in the process.
Point is that one version costs $X per hour, the other version costs $X per hour plus the $100+ to talk to MS support. I suppose it is rather subjective and variable to the situation which will result in a better outcome, but I tend to think the employer gets more out of it when I teach myself how to fix the problem.
Second point...how long are you on hold with MS support? Could it be that searching google turns up the answer in 1/2 the time it takes to even talk to an MS employee? With that in mind, the cost to talk to MS support is $2X + 100+.
So, I could sit there and hum for 2 hours while my employer pays me and MS to do basically nothing or I could hunt down the answer on the web in 1 hour and learn shit in the mean time.
I can also multitask better when waiting for a responce from the web. I post to usenet and move on to other problems only to check back later and get my answer. I can't multitask as well while waiting for someone to take me off hold...my attention is taken too much.
Hmmm...I know which way _I_ would go as an employer. I think 2X is too conservative an estimate.
NR
I must admit that this is the most amuzing troll I've seen to date.
English is easier said than done.
Most mail software doesn't try to be something better than Outlook, it just tries to be compatable on a different platform or with less cost.
But that, in itself *is* something better. If a software package makes it so that I can run an OS I can be productive with, instead of having to run Windows to talk to the rest of the company, then that's a benefit.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Ever heard of Ethernet, TCP/IP, HTTP? To name a few...
> It would be cheaper to simply hire some inhouse IT people to support and develop software than it is to pay outside...and multiple cities and governments can collaborate.
... no. At least not always. Things like word processors are best bought off-the-shelf. Of course, once you have slightly unusual requirements, customising COTS software (like, say, SAP) gets hideously expensive. This is _not_ an endorsement for MickeySoft, btw.
Err
What a long, strange trip it's been.
-- Will program for bandwidth
governments that standardise on open-source software are hurting their local software vendors as they can't make the money needed to invest in their own software products.
You'd expect a government to buy direct. The only "local" software vendor here is Microsoft.
building open-source software is a "waste of money" and that a company was in effect giving away its intellectual property, preventing it from getting future benefits. "If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge,"
Their benefits are (1) The free use of software that they CAN imrove on, (2) The use of those improvements in their own line of business (If you need a new feature or bugfix in a commercial product, your options are limited, as in your only option is to wait and see), and (3) The use of improvements made by businesses who are using the software because of your improvements. Etc.
even companies that support open source are just as motivated by commercial interests as any other commercial software vendor.
Yeah, what's wrong with expecting a little well earned profit?
Intellectual property rights fuel sustained innovation
Need is a pretty big motivation to innovate. Some call it the root of all invention. You keep your IP rights, enough to relicense and enforce against commercial pirates. And open source won't prohibit you from making commercial software, on your own, and seeing how far those IP rights get you when nobody wants to pay to use your software because you're competing with Microsoft. And how was 15 years of DOS, an OS that was a decade outdated when it was created, defended heavily by litigation and anti-competitive tactics, and based entirely on the works of others any without credit or compensation, a shining example of innovation fueled by IP rights? Quite the opposite.
Or what about the fear of patent litigation if I invent something that someone else invented independently? Non-innovators need not worry about such things.
With open source, there is no way to make more software
??? With FUD, there is no way to make more sense?
Isn't "anti-competitive" behavior competitive behavior? This all seems like nonsense to get your product to the top.
Like IBM financially supporting OS/Linux against Microsoft. Like Netscape against Microsoft all that long ago.
This is getting out of hand. Microsoft is exploiting holes in the system --- or benefitting by utilizing copyright and IP laws that exist in the system. This means that Microsoft is not being anti-competitive, but rather competitive; they're just being better at it.
Speckpot?
I just got some hate mail in private email from one of the aforementioned 'Morons'. Poor guy seems a bit delusional. First up, he's of the perception that the aforementioned crash-course means of learning a new language works really really well. Well hey, if your foreign language skills were half as good as you think they are, I wouldn't be getting a kick out of watching native speakers laugh their guts up at you behind your back! Then, he somehow managed to establish that my discussion of culture and business was actually talk about religion!!! (go figure) and that I was attacking him. I guess that's why they're colloquially known as 'Morons'. Anyway Mister Joe Brower , I don't accept unsolicited mail from anyone, much less unsolicited hate mail from someone who has problems interpreting stuff in his native language whilst professing to be an excellent speaker of a bunch of other languages. What I *will* do is enter "jb_02_98@yahoo.com" on any web page that wants to know my email address for the next month or three. No, thank *you* for your time (and you're right, I'd like it if you kept your religion out of my slashdot).
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Microsoft is Un-American because they are anti-capitalist.
I blame Microsoft for falling for the broken window fallacy and arguing for greater government spending. Government spending reduces investment in the economy because it takes capital away from the economy in taxes and borrowing.It would help if our own government, especially the California legislature, understood this.
And this has what to do with my rights?
Open Source has NO interest in MS except with regard to APIs and protocols to enable OSS to talk with proprietary MS protocols. Other than that, OSS does not care that MS exists or not, it has no interest in defeating MS is some kind of software war and is here to stay whether MS like it or not.
MS should now accept this, just like they had to finally accept that TCP/IP became the globally accepted way of networking computers together about 10 - 15 years ago.
A rational adult company would recognise that it now has some serious competition for market share and would begin to take positive steps to secure its userbase - for starters, spending some of those huge cash reserves to improve the products that are out there already, make them better and more secure and, yes, lower their prices to make them more value for money.
Additionally, an adult company would accept that it's products have to work with competitors products and take action to ensure that (some of) its APIs are open or that it adopts more open standards within its products.
The problem is that at the moment, the only damage MS is doing is to itself. This "spoilt brat" behaviour is lowering its public image even more and giving some of its customers another excuse to adopt OSS in favour of its own products.
My personal belief is that MS are very close to having to adopt a major tactic change (for the better) in order to stay in business in the future (and they know it). I'm sure that very soon we'll see the patent litigations start against the likes of SAMBA and those that built FAT/NTFS support into the kernel but I really don't see how backwards engineering will be seen as infringing a patent when tested in court - I also suspect (and hope) that one or more of the big Linux players (IBM?) will step forward with the money for OSS to fight these litigations - if not, then I believe the community itself will find ways of raising money to fight them. After all the court cases are done, MS will just be perceived as inflexible and (more) arrogant and lose more customers as a result.
The article just indicates how desperate MS are getting (in terms of trying to stop OSS) and very soon they'll realise that they just have to accept it and work with it or give up with software completely.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
This is total crap! What OS DIDN'T have UNIX as a root??! I seem to recall that Windows NT used to be POSIX compliant as well. And didn't IE start life off as Mosaic?
And the last time I checked, MS Office was not the first office 'suite'. Wasn't that Lotus 1-2-3? Besides which, LONG before Word for DOS was created, there were plenty of other competitors (XYwrite, Wordperfect, etc.)
In fact, StarOffice started life almost 10 years ago from a German firm as a commercial product. It was open sourced by Sun as 'OpenOffice.org'. The incredible results of just three years of effort show what OSS can do when properly focused.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
To be fair, you did say "..pushing their false religion" which is loaded enough to be asking for trouble.
Also why do you put your email address on slashdot if you don't accept unsolicited email?
'cos there's an RFC somewhere that says faking email addresses in headers is a bad thing, mmmkay. Admittedly, the RFC I have in mind is 820 or 821 or one of the nntp ones, but it's still bad, mmmkay! :-)
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
The salary has to be paid anyway, so frankly you have no point there.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
How many MS licenses would you stop using?
Did you spend on training before (or did you learn employees figure it all out because MS software is "easy"?
How much MS support staff was replaced?
How much office space was freed by former MS support people?
etc.
You cunningly choose to ignore the savings.
Most importantly, you forgot to put a price to the fact that with Linux and OSS you become again the owner of your IT infrastructure and data. Put a price to that.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Goverments should balance between those two values and cost. Goverments should not use always the best tool for the work nor the cheapest one, if that tool hinders transparency and accountability.
Goverments have (or should have) more concerns than cost and efficency, goverments can't be cheap bastards all the time since they should defend core values comaptible with democracy.
Oh sorry, I forgot you are most likely USian and that the current political winds in the US do not support transparency and accountability. Sorry, my bad.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
They will look as dumb as when they realized the Internet was the next big thing.
But oh boy, see where they are now, some people believe they invented it....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Taxes are always harmful (at least directly) to an economy, because it's wasted money...profit that didn't get reinvested.
Not necessarily. Taxes *tend* to get re-distributed at least somewhat evenly. A few poor states like West Virginia get disproproportionate amounts of funding (due to the powerful Senator Byrd).
Taxes are very useful from an economic standpoint for some things. They solve the public-good problem, for one. Probably the biggest example of this is roads. The US road system would never exist if people had to privately fund the whole thing -- there would be tollbooths all over in the best case. I'm not willing to pay for twenty feet of highway (20' of highway does me no good), but I *am* willing to put in money if it means that everyone else does as well and I get to use the resulting road system to transport myself and goods.
May we never see th
In some respects i agree with MS... But really this is silly.
:)
If you look at it from the same point of view as outsourcing American jobs to low wage foreign workforces... Its the same argument. Funny that a Corperation is now using it to battle the free will of the people. How convient.
But the truth is... Open Source software still requires a work force to maintain it, author it, and contribute to it.
Microsoft is really concerned with sales of their software... not the jobs of people
If we put our super secret microsoft pr decoder glasses on, the statement actually reads:
"if you dont buy our software, it's going to hurt our company"
Well DUH Microsoft. It seems as if someone is affraid of a fair competitive market.
Microsoft could switch to the redhat buisness model and still hold the same market dominance with an open source Longhorn...
But they're all too greedy for that.
Its so funny to see Microsoft complaining about how free software is impossible to compete with... IE anyone?
Nope.. Mozilla firebird for me!
Q: How many MSCEs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None. MS simply declares darkness the new standard.
MS is just pissed off because OSS looks like piracy but unfortunately for MS, it isn't.
In days of yore when someone started doing things like OSS, it was easy for groups like MS because all they had to do was declare OSS a bunch of copyright pirates and take them apart with the help of every legal mechanism available.
But when the "pirates" use the same language as the "privateers" (see GPL using the language of copyright back against MS, and everyone else) then it's on for everyone. Good luck to MS with the rhetoric, because that is, in reality (and unsubstantiated SCO totally aside) all they've got to use.
I further remember the uncomfortable look I got when I asked the pantsuited sales lady if it was okay if I made copies of my Red Hat 5.0 CDs to share with friends.
Meh, 'sokay. As long as Red Hat's actual content producers are those unwashed hackers and don't start ignoring unwashed hackers like me, I'll be happy.
To be honest, I don't envy those Red Hat business types. They are quite literally forging new ground and having to produce and test new business models for a changed market, all while fighting one of the largest companies in the world. This is not a position that implies survival -- usually it's companies that *follow* companies like these and can tread on the dead bodies of the companies that made mistakes before them that end up making it big.
The Red Hat hackers, on the other hand, get dream jobs. They get paid to hack on OSS.
May we never see th
attention moderators: Karma2burn
Reading between the lines, M$ is telling governements (and intereseted governement officials in particular) that it is very unlikely that a big open-source deal in a public service would be accompanied by any sort of bonuses, benefits and commi$$ions for the decision-makers.
1. ignore open source
2. ??????
3. Profit?!
The shortened example below is purely coincidental and totally misses the point:
Slovenia recently decided on a huge license deal with M$, not even considering open source solutions as well as ignoring the news that M$ is willing to give licenses for free to countries just not to switch to non-M$.
Another job well done and taxpayers money well spent, would be in tune with the above article.
The interesting detail below is purely coincidental and has no point whatsoever:
Former CEO of M$ Slovenia is now married to a former governement-head-of-PR. The happy couple made the tabloid news couple of years ago - he giving her an Audi TT as a gift - or some sort of an engagement present...
Thank you for moderating this comment. This is not a signature. Handle with care. No lifeguard on duty. Anything below this point is no longer related to the post above. He who dies with the most taglines wins. Why don't somebody, following the fine example of RIAA, sue Microsoft for designing, providing and distributing virus-spreading tools?
Support is a really strange thing - on one hand, you've got the users who say "fsck support, it works!" and on the other, you've got people who say "I don't care if it 'just works', I want someone to cover my ass if it doesn't work!"
This is a huge, huge, huge deal.
In many cases, much of business lies in separating the interests of an exec at a client from the interests of the business he works at. That may take the form of something as simple as wining and dining them. It may be because vendors can take advantage of imperfect reward systems at companies -- execs generally recieve little or no reward for doing something slightly better than expected (Windows works, Linux works better, the exec isn't getting a bonus for going to Linux) and tremendous punishment for anything going wrong when a finger can be pointed at them. Official support is rarely worth the money it costs (especially if you are a large company with a skilled in-house IT staff) unless you are working with some very specialized software. However, if something goes wrong and a support contract is present, the exec can just say "I did my job". He won't get nailed if it's widely known that this software has caused problems before, but he *will* get nailed if something goes wrong and there is no support contract in place.
"Cover my ass" is one of the inefficiencies in business, and something that businesses should (hard as it is) work to eliminate.
May we never see th
isn't there an option in slashdot to hide your email address?
Sparkz, your post theoretically is true. I think the problem is that you're making an invalid assumption.
I have yet to find phone support of any kind that's worth a damn, and have long since given up on it, and solved problems myself. (Well, "myself", as Google/Google Groups/IRC are valid resources in solving it myself.)
As long as there are no good systems in place for evaluating the quality of support and publically rating companies on them, I suspect that the quality of support will continue to be abysmal, and a primary area used to cost-cut. If calling up put someone in touch with the developer of the software, that's a totally different story -- but it generally doesn't.
May we never see th
I heard that Saddam Hussein refused to use Linux and that's why the US invaded. One of those guys in Abu Ghraib with the black cloth over his head was actually Linus Torvalds. Haven't seen him around lately, have you?
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Open source software is more akin to the pipes and tools which the plumber uses. You still pay him for his skills, time and effort. Are you saying that he shouldn't be able to design his own tools and give them to who he likes?
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Aren't they basically saying that software purchases in government should be a "new deal" type tax and spend program aimed at boosting software companies' profits and employment? I don't think Microsoft would appriciate it much if the government looked for the most expensive alternative for everything it bought, as it would be coming out of microsoft's pockets in the form of taxes.
"The studies conducted clearly shows that Microsoft has a lower TCO than Linux in many areas."
As a Unix administrator, I can make Linux cost an absolute fortune simply by changing the way the systems are designed. I can make it hideously complex, unreliable and expensive to support.
Or, since I actually know what I'm doing, I can make it cost a tiny fraction, scale to thousands and make 90% better use of the hardware. It all depends if you know what you're doing. If you have a team of Windows bods, don't expect to make any savings at all just translating the windows system architecture directly over to Linux without making any changes.
"Linux stole ideas from Unix,"
You're giving the impression that those ideas were not given freely. They were.
To IBM, Linux and Open Source is simply an enabler, a tool to allow them to provide services.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Price discrimination is a necessity, because the cost of living is not the same everywhere. USD 100 in the US is definitely not the same as USD 100 in the Philippines!
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Yep, scary stuff.
Maybe M$ broke down his theta brain waves or something.
The natural progression of development would be former M$ employees amending their ways and working for Linux, not the other way around?
A corporate employee -- in MARKETING no less -- whose motivations are monetary, not belief-based!! We must stamp this out before it becomes socially acceptable!! Thank goodness there's only one of them. I'm pretty sure every other executive in the world is still going to work each day out of a sense of belief, but if this 'monetary motivation' thing catches on, we could be looking at people going into business to make money, or, worse yet, going to work in order to get a paycheck! *splutter*
Seriously, guys, listen to yourselves.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
For some reason, this quote from 1984 seems appropriate, from right after O'Brien says that the rule of the Party is simply for power and greed:
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face...forever."
It's just so they can be dominant and push people around. No other reason. So long as they're number one, they're happy.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
What's the bets that RedHat might have some juicy comments of his from times past, in email or whatever, singing the complete opposite to what he's chanting now?
:)
Now would be the time to reveal these publicly and really make him look a fool
Taxes tend to have a negative effect on the growth of the economy. You have to have some taxes or you can't run a government at all, and there are certainly important programs that must be funded, but governements should try to save money wherever possible. If I'm not giving my money to the governement, I'll spend it myself, and I'll spend it on things that will drive the economy towards making more goods that I want to purchase.
I'm no economist, but I believe that when governments decide where the money gets spent, you create artificial economies that can collapse when political tides change. There are buying fads as well, but I believe they have less of a deterimental effect on the economy.
By investing in Open Source solutions for software, governments help create a body of software that can be used by all other governments. Keeping it open gives us a way to directly help governments in smaller countries by making top quality software available for them. This is all done without any extra cost. It's sort of foriegn aid as a by-product of smart shoping on our governments part. Since most governments face similar organizational problems, there is bound to be tremendous overlap in the software requirements they all have.
Open Source software is more secure, in general, than commercial softare because it is open to public scrutiny and analysis. I think it's frightening to imagine viruses taking over government computers and opening them up to manipulation by criminals. It seems that creates all sorts of potential problems that are best avoided.
In summary, I think that the best decision any government can make is to use Open Source Software whenever it meets the requirements of the situation. It's the best thing for the economy and for the taxpayers.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
Many times it is more of a language barrier even if they can speak english to some extent and even if we can speak their language to some extent. The accents are usually very thick. While americans are more willing to ask questions if there is something that we don't understand, for we follow the philosophy "He who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes, He who doesn't is a fool forever.". While in Asia if they don't understand you they will try to look like you know what your talking about so they are not the ones that seem stupid, and beside it is only the "Wide Eyed Barbarians" who are talking to them, so it can't be that important. Even if they paid Thousands or Millions of dollars to listen to this "Wide Eyes Barbarian" speak. But if it is a situation where they can really understand what you are saying then they will be far more involved in what your saying and ask the intelligent questions that they are willing to ask.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I do, and i have... But that doesn't alter my original statement that his past leads more credibility ( typo fixed.. grrr must proof read ) to his statements.
When an 'expert' from a telecom company moves to another company, he brings his experience with him, thus he's more credible in the new position to discuss telecom issues.. This is the same concept, only with an OSS slant.
And for those that asked who is 'we' or didn't understand what the bashing reference was, I was speaking of the PR issues and public opinion.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So if cheaper steel is good, why on earth is cheaper software bad?
Well, it isn't bad, but this is Slashdot. When Linux competes with Windows on price, it's good. When Indian programmers compete with Americans on price, it's bad.
Certainly no-one has yet produced compelling evidence that Linux is actually cheaper. We have a bunch of studies from IBM et al saying that it is, and we have a bunch of studies from MS saying that it isn't. But I will say this: if something has no upfront cost and there is still doubt that it is cheaper, then maybe it's worth paying upfront.
What a pity.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Sharp, who used to work for Red Hat before joining Microsoft, said building open-source software is a "waste of money" and that a company was in effect giving away its intellectual property, preventing it from getting future benefits. "If you are compelled to give back to the community, then you don't have the opportunity to benefit from that knowledge," he stressed.
So MSFT is trying to have it both ways:
- drinking this "milk" thing is stupid, because no one wants milk,
and it's bad for you
- selling "milk" is stupid, because there's no way to make money at
it.
- therefore everytime some sells milk to some else, they're both
STUPID
- why doesn't everyone just drink Microsoft Cola (tm), which is good
for you, strengthens teeth, cures rheumatism, and helps our stock
price?
- And Also: if you don't...you're stupid.
Economics 101 teaches "The Principle of Revealed Preference": you may not understand why people are choosing A over B, but the fact that they are means that they prefer A over B. It's darn-near tautological, but it's not actually 100% trivial. Real world observation beats ivory tower speculation 10 out of 10 times.This reminds me a movie that was released 3 years ago... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218817/combined
Saxtus
Now that you mention it, the wheel on my MS mouse has an annoying habit of depressing every time I lightly tap the mouse on the desk. This can be annoying when I'm fiddling while reading /. because my browser will try to find whatever's on my clipboard at the time.
So point taken.
And sorry, I've spent far too long playing racing sims and I've forgotten the KETM rule...
So point taken again.
Cogito, ergo sig.
Why do people keep implying that the quality of the free and open source software alternatives is equivalent to the mainstream commercial applications? With a few exceptions, it simply isn't true for any of the big name apps that matter. (Not coincidentally, those exceptions are the ones making serious inroads into the marketplace.)
In terms of features, the freebies are still mostly playing catch-up to the established commerical players. It's true that some are pretty much there now; I gather Gnumeric is very good these days. Very few are ahead, however, and those that are ahead in places usually lag behind in other areas.
In terms of usability -- and please understand that usability is everything outside of GeekWorld(TM) -- free software isn't even on the planet where Microsoft, Apple et al live. This was exemplified right here on Slashdot a few days ago, when an article slammed the GIMP for its non-standard interface amongst other things, and a zillion slashbots collectively put their heads in the sand and missed the point. The Mozilla project's continued stubborn insistence that W3C standards are more important than being compatible with the browser used by 90+% of surfers, to the extent that their product does not work with a significant number of major web sites, is another fine example.
On the plus side, in terms of portability, open standards compliance and sometimes even technical merit, several of the freebies are ahead of the game, though rarely by as far as they think they are. However, you have to realise that these things are mostly implementation details, and come in a distant third place in the "what matters" race.
As my previous posts will tell you, I'm no apologist for megacorps, but you have to keep these things in perspective. $300 to an individual is a lot of money. $300 to a business is merely the cost of employing somebody useful for a few hours, and the associated overheads. If an alternative software product with poor usability or a missing feature cost those few hours, you've already justified buying the $300 product instead. If the freebie wastes that time twice, it just became a liability.
So, yes, when the free kit is just as good as commercial in every way and the cost of switching is small, I would expect government to move to it. But that's not going to happen for a while yet, and in the meantime I have no problem with government spending some of my tax money on a more productive alternative.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Microsoft vic^H^H^Husers having to pay IT support professionals $$$ to remove viruses and spyware because their plan for "security through obscurity" is completely fucked up. Two nights ago I finished a marathon session of sitting up, loading antivirus and spyware removal programs on a customer's PC (I'm doing freelance to supplement the unemployment while laid off), then patching the thing with all the latest and greatest fixes.
Tons of spyware and, surprisingly, only a few viruses were found.
Sorry, Chris, but my PC's here at home don't have those problems because security was designed in as part of the system from the get-go. MS is the biggest waste of money on the planet.
You have to remember that Msft isn't just the wealthy leaders, it's also mostly a LOT of relatively newbies struggling to put in their 7 years and make a bundle also - that's what keeps them going - and the languishing flatlined stock price isn't helping morale, so, what to do? Pick a scapegoat (FOSS) and wail away. "Keep plugging at that filesystem, we're taking care of those free software communists that're currently hurting our growth numbers but when we're done you'll be able to make a bundle too".
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I don't know why it is that you feel it necessary to bash any particular religion, especially one that you don't seem to like.
While I can't agree with anyone sending you a hate mail, I do think you are being excessively inflammatory, trollish, and otherwise offensive to a group of people who are trying to live their life the way they feel is best. The goal of proselyting is not to _force_ an idea on anyone, but to allow others to hear your view and hopefully off them information that they did not previously have.
Many people, LDS missionaries (which you oh so politely refer to as 'morons', and obviously have no hatred for whatsoever) included, make the mistake of being overly heavy handed.
As someone who has been involved in missionary work, I find it very disturbing to read accounts like yours. If you don't want to hear the message someone has, then ignore them. If you do, then fine. But I don't see the point in doing what you are doing. It only makes you seem immature.
I do agree with part of your post, however. That there is a huge difference between Asian and American culture. Americans, for the most part, have forgotten how to be polite. We are, by and large, an excessively rude group of people. I am sad to see that the Australians seem to be following in our footsteps (the Europeans are marching lockstep in the same direction too, so don't get on any high horse there). It seems that only the Asians (and not all of them), are maintaining a culture of politeness and civility (at least on the face of it).
I do hope you have a wonderful day, however.
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Look, the argument about ROI is completely facile. OSS will always win. Take a step back from the issue and think for a minute. Itemise all the tasks that need to be done wrt to software. Does, buying proprietary software make those tasks disappear? Of course not. There is probably a strong case to say that proprietary software has more tasks associated with it. Even in a world where you take the Keynsian view on government expenditure, the economic utility from spending one more dollar on a platform that is standards based and universally available is a dollar better spent than if it were spent on something proprietary and that is even before one takes the margin out of the sale and repatriates the profit to the jusridiction of the vendor. That's before thinking about the fact that every dollar spent improving a piece of free software is a dollar that does not need to be respent by another department, or another government. Leaving all those extra dollars to improve other software or decrease the marginal cost of government, all of which improves net social utility.
So without even considering the actual cost of the software, the economics of the public sector make free software make sense. I would go further and say that we must _demand_ that public institutions use free software since to do otherwise is fiscally irresponsible.
Any proprietary organisation can pull as many TCO surveys out of their ass as they like, the issue issue, in my view, is not one of economic rationalism (well at least not short term economic rationalism becuase I think my argument is economically rational in the long term at least) but one of public policy. It is contrary to good public policy to pay for proprietary software. Once the problems that a public institution has to solve have been solved, those solutions (the software, and that is not the only example) should be available to everyone to increase the net benefit to society as a whole. That is what public institutions are for!
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
What is the "governnment entity" that is greedy? Last I checked, we're running a massive deficit. I'm a greedy taxpayer who is all for shrinking the size of govt and keeping as much of my own money as possible. If the govt spends less on the licensing merry-go-round, that's a win for the taxpayer. On another note, Microsoft's ads claim that their software saves money, partly by lowering personnel costs (jobs.) What's sauce for the goose . . .
I struggled for days and days and all I got was this lousy sig.
It's good for the economy when things like steel and coal and fabric gets cheaper, because it means a better standard of living for consumers.
i ng is *not* as desirable....
Except that cheap coal and cheap steel cause alot of un-captured expenses. Coal and Steel production / use are very high energy endevours, this energy is usually associated with a massive amount of uncontained pollution. This pollution causes sickness, plant/animal habitat loss, loss of food-supplies (fish-in-stream etc), human-habitat loss (areas rendered uninhabitable)... etc etc.
while I do understand your point -- and I essentially agree -- it is incorrect to consider low-cost-everything being good. Low cost organic-hemp-cloth and low-cost-regionally-appropriate-organic-foods are VERY good, low cost Imported Nylon cloth and low-cost-Imported-GM-heavily-manufactured-food-th
No market is free. FOSS and Closed Source software rely on IP Law to 'create and regulate' their markets. Auto Co.s rely on Government created infrastructure. Even in-house plumbers rely on the standards-compliant governmnet-created infrastrucutre....
I guess my point is simple, that be carefull to not underestimate what the Market will do to EXTERNALIZE very real COSTS associated with a product. These costs are then abandoned onto the citizens of a community. No markets will ever be free of this reality. And a truely free-market (one where the market works to create 'low prices that benefit citizens') is an absolute myth -- it cannot be created.
Taxes are always harmful (at least directly) to an economy, because it's wasted money...profit that didn't get reinvested.
Well, except that taxes are spent to create every conceivable infrastructure. It is your taxes that create social infrastrucutre (schools, libraries, administration), production infrastructure (roads, rails, trades), market infrastructure (services, law/courts, research) -- all necessary to create a TRULY elevated standard of living for a community. The fictional free market (where *all* these things are for-profit, and no taxes exist of any kind) will only serve to destroy civilization -- a 'community' with unreal amounts of wealth held by the market-kings, slaves, chaos, danger, disease and uncertainty.
A Well Regulated market will (and has) created the opportunity for the greatest number to have an increased Standard of Living.
McDonald's has been known to advertise "America's favorite fries". I don't think there's any doubt that they sell more fries than anyone else, but I doubt that many fry eaters as individuals would list McD's as their preference.
Frito-Lay (sorry to dwell on fried foods) does the same with crunchy snacks. Even more than McDonald's, and much like Microsoft, they achieve marketplace dominance by driving their competitors' products off the shelf, rather than by actually competing for preference.
There's even a B-school concept of "hyper-competition" about how to own a marketplace. Basically by bullying the middlemen: highway planners, groceries, OEMs.
The word "prefer" carries no meaning if there's a conclusion that I prefer McDonald's food when my choices have been limited to McDonald's and Wendy's. My choices have already been constrained. I *prefer* a competent local business to McDonald's, but non-chain budget restaurants are too marginal to afford both a location visible to non-locals and competence.
I prefer corn chips that taste like corn rather than like construction debris, but most convenience stores don't carry them.
Similarly, I have to go out of my way if I want to avoid Microsoft.
My preference in a meaningful sense is only revealed when I accept some inconvenience to avoid the near-monopolist. Someone driving a half-mile out of their way to get some decent food reveals a preference. Someone not doing so just reveals that they are burned out and hassled, and lack the information to make a more satisfactory choice. In other words, the hypercompetition strategy (make everybody's life systematically worse and call it "great") is working.
How many times have you used a Microsoft product and said to yourself "gee, I'd certainly prefer to be using X..." for some value of X?
mt
An early one was that open-source software is anti-competitive!
Actually, it sort of is, in a way. At least... when any particular product line starts to "own" a market, as MSOffice has, you can easily bottom out the market by funding or developing an OSS "alternative" to poison that market, thereby collapsing the market to non-profitability. When the market is no longer profitable, interest will leave it and you'll be stuck with software that has no interest in keeping it "current". The only jobs associated with it then would be the equivalent of blue-collar jobs where people just install or uninstall it (not including the people who use it - because they aren't deriving their income directly from the support of the software).
Like this guy, I've worked (actually gotten paid) to develop OSS software in the past and I have also competed head-to-head against it in the commercial space. What I've found is that the majority of people who use OSS use it because it is free (as in beer) rather than because it is necessarily "good". They will settle for inferior products that do as much to hinder their work as improve it simply to save a buck. In many cases, it breeds mediocrity.
I mean...you can't prove it's right...can't prove it's wrong...
Blar.
> I don't know why it is that you feel it necessary to bash any
:-)
> particular religion, especially one that you don't seem to like.
I do. A lot of us do. They want to convert us, and we want to convert them and prevent conversions to idiotic belief systems that we think are steaming piles of shit.
Not only that, but I thought his post was VERY entertaining. It was ENJOYABLE to read.
We live in a free country. So they get to do what they do, and we get to do what we do.
If you don't like it go to Russia.*
> The goal of proselyting is not to _force_ an idea on anyone,
> but to allow others to hear your view and hopefully off
> them information that they did not previously have.
Oh wait, it seems you do understand what I'm talking about after all!!!
(*) Damn it, Russia's a free country now, isn't it. But it still sounds so right, so I'm going to continue using it. God bless the Simpsons.
Two rebuttals:
When Linux competes with Windows on price, it's good. When Indian programmers compete with Americans on price, it's bad.
This assumes the people making each arguement are one and the same. While there may be a few of these conflicted individuals on Slashdot, I believe the assumption is overly broad.
But I will say this: if something has no upfront cost and there is still doubt that it is cheaper, then maybe it's worth paying upfront.
If something has upfront costs and there is still doubt that it is cheaper, then why would one pay upfront?
> While I can't agree with anyone sending you a hate mail, I do think
> you are being excessively inflammatory, trollish, and otherwise offensive
Oh wait, you're objecting to him coming back to flame the guy who sent him e-mail direct. Not objecting (at least not completely) to his original post.
Uhhh, yeah, I can kind of see your point. But at the same time we don't know exactly what the Mormon sent to him in e-mail, perhaps it was a bit abusive. Perhaps he felt his privacy and time were invaded. Personally I'd be willing to do this to them just to make up for my time that they waste and annoy when they show up on my doorstep, just like I hate telemarketers.
Are you a big enough company for MS to care? Companies with several thousand Windows licenses get decent support from them. MS doesn't support the little guy much, but bigger companies do all right.
We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
Enough with the "Microsoft recognising talent" crap, hiring someone as PR fodder simply isn't the same thing. He may or many not be talented but I doubt that was the primary drive for hiring an ex-RedHat employee.
As for quoting "even companies that support open source are just as motivated by commercial interests as any other commercial software vendor", without putting any context around that it doesn't make any sense. If it means "all companies want to make money" then duh. If it means that every company will throw away its ethics and even act illegally (such as the company 'Microsoft') to make a profit then that simply isn't true.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
While I hope that is true, I wonder if it is? Are "the very best" really required for the task at hand? If the farmer analogy really applies, there might be some lessons. Family farms are nearly dead. People who continue to operate small farms, do it because they are committed to the lifestyle, either through lack of alternatives or through love of the job. Large corporate farms have taken over much of the market and they focus on automation to reduce the required skill (and pay) level of employees.
Is this the future of programming? If it is, I'll probably become the analog of the very active and productive home gardener. I'll develop software on my own for my own use. I'll share it with my friends. I might even sell some for extra money on the side. It won't, however be my living. I don't know if that idea scares me or excites me; it certainly causes a strong adrenalin reaction.
Sorry if anyone commented on this already, I don't feel like reading through a gizillion posts ;).
Isnt it funny how ms is calling a waste of money and idea that a good part(yes, part, I know not all of it) of it is build upon FREE.
It's funny how some people will react when there scared and under pressure, eh bill.
In BC, if there was a group who where willing to work for free for any basic service (i.e. plumbing) school teachers and nurses would strike and the old plumbers would end up with a significant raise. Yesiree Bob, in the great white North, the money is in Unions, not software (closed or open source)
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
My posting history supports what I said. Go ahead and keep stalking my posts. ;)
First thing that comes to mind is, "sellout". Almost anyone can be bought if the reward is great enough. The exceptions are those who truly live by their convictions.
Here is an opportunity for parallel importing.
In my county (Hawaii, USA) and, I believe, the entire state, you are supposed to have a licensed plumber to repair/replace a fixture, install a garbage disposal, etc. You need a licensed electrician to do virtually anything other than change a lightbulb. You need a licensed contractor for any construction or repair costing more than $1000. We also probably have the highest number of unpermitted and uninspected dwellings anywhere - mostly for just these reasons.
Considering Microsoft have recently released stuff under open source licenses recently they can hardly go creating FUD about open source .
Methink this employee should have the sack!
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
governments that standardise on open-source software are hurting their local software vendors as they can't make the money needed to invest in their own software products.
I suppose his point was: if the Chinese government standardizes on Linux and OpenOffice, then word processor software developers in Beijing will suffer. Huh? How is this different from standardizing on Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office? If anything, OSS is better: the open source market is still relatively nascent, so there is greater opportunity for products to compete with each other on more level ground.
And developers will never be short on work as long as the government needs work done. Even today you can see a software industry that caters specifically to government needs. This will only increase with time.
Microsoft is just afraid that some day it will have to advertise that Windows integrates seamlessly into Linux environments.
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
I'm not sure what your web commune had to do with Open Source. Nothing about open source prevents or discourages you from charging for goods and services. You'll find just as many freeloaders eager to take "free beer" from the closed source camp.
The alternative to OSS is Trade Guilds. OSS is a necessary foundation for a free market in the software industry. What Microsoft is promiting is the Trade Guild model - where all the information needed to create and use the underlying technology is carefully guarded and available only to guild members (those who work for Microsoft).
Outsiders might be able write a few scripts to customize things (after registering them with the Guild so that the Trusted Computing Architecture will load them). But the only source for the software infrastructure is the Software Guild, known as Microsoft in the early 21st century. The Theives Guild might offer some alternatives, but with its own costs and risks.
What exactly he will be saying _when_ he leaves Microsoft?
He strikes me as the type of evangelist that fervently espouces the party line of whomever happens to be paying him at the moment.
The U.S. really needs an English to Wisdom dictionary.
This is really too much - a representative of Microsoft claiming something else is a waste of money.
Most of you steal your software.
- Bill Gates
Let me guess.
Your name is Brown, you run the Marquis de Sade Institute and you just wrote a book on a related subject which no-one seems to be taking seriously.
The point of your posting was so that you could say: "the well known and prolific Slashdot poster, Mr A. C., agrees with me in all points".
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
LOL This is the funniest thing I've seen on here in a while. Thanks for the laugh!!!
http://www.sun.com/service/support/sunspectrum/pla tinum.html
Two-hour on-site service with 24/7 coverage
(The footnote mentions a difference based on locale - here in the UK, it's 4 hours). For phone support - phone through, give serial number (eh? I obviously own one!), describe problem, get put through to an engineer.
Sometimes I get through to voicemail (if they're on the line already) - get a call straight back.
I don't phone with trivial problems, obviously (I'm sure you don't, either) - normally some strange combination of sw/hw/etc - get through to someone who knows the technology, and at least understands the questions immediately - THAT'S A BIGGIE - and so can find the answer, even if it's not immediately to hand (if it were, I should know it, too, if I'm doing my job right).
If needs be, they'll replicate the config in the lab.
I suspect we're dealing with different scales of problems - not "how do i?" questions - you should be googling for that, it's your job, not your vendor's - but "it's not doing what it should", which is when you need to go to the vendor.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re