Are PDAs Simply Finished?

angkor writes "After Sony's sudden plan to discontinue the Clie and pull out of the American PDA market, many industry observers have increased their speculation about the demise of the PDA, in general. The Japanese electronics giant was defeated in the American market by increased competition and an industry-wide decline in PDA sales."

Comments

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

People want either highly specialized mini computers (ie audio players), or they want the full power of a computer. Budget laptops don't cost significantly more than some high end PDAs, and you get a lot more flexibility.

Re:Yes

[squiggleslash]

I'm not sure a laptop will ever make a reasonable replacement for a PDA given the whole PDA thing is about size and convenience.

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for, with the exception of efficient note taking (a feature I rarely see my PDA-owning friends using in practice)

I quoted "PDAs" in the above because in a sense, that means that cellphones are the next generation PDAs, a device you keep in your pocket, that stores your contacts, calendar, and general notes, can perform calculations, let you play games when you're bored, etc - that happens to incorporate an additional function PDAs never had, the ability to contact anyone in the world - by message or voice - in seconds.

Re:Yes

[Raven42rac]

To many, flexibility doesn't matter, size and portability do. I learned this when my predictions regarding sales of the iPod mini proved false, I thought it would not sell, but it has, so much that you can't buy one.

Re:Yes

[AaronGTurner]

Oh, and I have a Compact Flash VGA adapter for my PDA too. As long as I don't do powerpoint with lots of graphics in (not really my style anyway) it works perfectly well and fits in my pocket.

Re:Yes

[mattyrobinson69]

nowadays, a phone isn't a phone with loads ofpda features - its more of a PDA that can make phone calls and send text (and multimedia) messages

if you want a pda to sell, let it make phone calls too.

Re:Yes

[AKAImBatman]

People want either highly specialized mini computers (ie audio players), or they want the full power of a computer.

I think this is how the PDA lost its edge. It *used* to be an inexpensive, specialized satellite device. Then feature creep came in and everyone wanted more memory, bigger screens, full color support, sound, graphics, wireless, etc., etc. If Palm started selling something akin to the original device, but at a much lower cost (say $25-$50), they would probably see sales pick up.

The problem is that such a device would invalidate the tremendous library of existing software. Thus they need less of a true Palm Pilot and more of a new "mini-Palm" platform for the "cost-conscious". I myself love my Sony CLIE and am sad to hear of their demise, but I also bought mine on sale for $130. There's no way I'm going to spend $300-$500 on something I might lose. Not to mention the fact that my occasional (albeit useful) usage doesn't justify a high price tag.

Re:Yes

[kryonD]

Actually, the same reason why our cell phones suck here compared to Japan is why it makes no difference whether you use an American cell phone or a PDA. The designed in software is crippled. Why on earth are modern PDA's still using WML or XHTML browsers when there are perfectly capable industry standard browsers that will run inside of them. NTT DoCoMo's phones were my reason for not owning a PDA in Japan because they had a hoard of web sites out there that did everything I needed to do. I could actually even reserve concert or plane tickets right from my phone's i-Mode browser. Try going to a website on the Blackberry....just plain sucks and almost no-one develops for it. Pocket-PC...miles better, but scripting for dynamic page support is unstable and there is a bug with HTML POST requests that M$ refuses to fix. I'm not even going to get started about Palm.

I write public safety software and there will always be a market for a portable method to access information for policemen who primarily use bicycles, motorcycles or horses. But writing stuff for the current mess of devices out there just plain hurts. If the Hand held makers would just sit down and agree that their priority is to allow people access to information and all support at least HTML 3.0 standards with CSS and JScript, there would be an explosion of web services and web portals that would actually bring some value to these things. Hand helds right now are just a few steps above Linux for the desktop. Linux is doing much better for application support, but is still mostly a geek toy. At least the handhelds allow a total moron to play solitaire and keep his address book right out of the box.

Disclaimer: For the super busy, high powered business man, being able to sync your Hand held with email and calendar functions is a service worth it's weight in gold. However, until they offer some value to the other 90% of us, the parent poster is dead right about the cell phones.

Re:Yes

[bangalla]

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for

So please tell me, how do you enter the phone number/ address/ important piece of information you've just been told into your cell phone while you are talking on it?

I'll take a small bluetooth enabled phone and a good PDA over a constrained convergant device any day.

Re:Yes

[Doppler00]

Let's be serious here, how could Palm survive if they sold their devices for only $25-$50? The market is already saturated, they won't magically boost their sales by 10 times simply by making a low power, super cheap device.

The only way they can survive is by offering more features. Otherwise, people would not have a reason to upgrade their existing units, and they won't attract new customers looking for the latest features.

Re:Yes

[computechnica]

They do. The Palm Zire 21 is sold at Wal-Mart in a blister pack for $80 It has all the functionality of a old Palm 5. But that also brings up another point. I know alot of people at work that still use Palm 5 & 7s. They were built to last and so the market for replacements is slow. Alot of people are happy with older devices. I sold a friend my old Palm 3x because my son no longer wanted it after I gave him my old Paml M105. My current Palm is the Tungsten E ($180) and it does everything I need it to. I do also have a new Dell Inspiron 5150 gaming laptop, at 9Lbs it does not fit in my pocket the way a Palm does 8^)

Re:Yes

[Lumpy]

nope... not the answer...

My origional PAlm Pilot. was in heavy use until I replaced it with a Sharp Zaurus.. most peopl that use palm devices are very happy with their unit for years, which is a Deathwish for any electronics manufacturer.. the PAlm PDA was too good. it worked, the apps did not take 90Meg of space and a 4 meg palm pilot could be used quite well by even a power user and have room for gobs of data plus books in it.

The same can NOT be said about any other PDA.

I am sitting here with a almost worn out sharp SL5500 looking to replace it with the new 6000 upgrade... but yet my palm III from over 4 years ago is still doing it's job nicely, works great, the battery pack does not fade (AAA batteries are cheap and better than any LiIon battery made.) and it's doing things my GF thoughh you needed to buy a new PDA for.

PalmOS is the killer Pocket OS... it doesn't obsolete the hardware at every version... and that is the problem.

Thre last Clie from SONY is the ultimate Palm Pilot, and people that buy them dont go upgrading every year as they dont need to.

and that is the problem.... if your product doesnt hook the customer into the "upgrade" cycle then you are doomed.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using a Palm IIIx since 1999, and I've just now bought a Zire 31. For me, the significant advantage is the ability to have a decent MP3 player without carrying around another device.

But if the (non-user-replacable) battery craps out after a few years, I may just switch back to my IIIx. It still works fine, and I do feel kinda bad about replacing such a trusty and faithful device.

Re:Yes

[yotto]

I hit 'menu' and 'phone book' and then 'add' and have them say the number (which I can hear just fine from a few feet away from the phone) while I key it in.

Amazing things, these multifunciton phones.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you meant something other than XHTML... XHTML is the most recent version of HTML.

Re:Yes

[bangalla]

I'd like to see you try your solution in a server room or in the middle of a crowd.

Re:Yes

[egghat]

The strange thing about the Sony clies is that as soon as the managed to buy a good, small, multimedia capable PDA with a wonderful screen (320*480) and very good battery life they quit the market ... Very strange. There isn't a comparable alternative from Palm. very sad.

bye egghat.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

You put it on speakerphone mode, hold it out in front of you, and enter the information while you talk.

Re:Yes

[CaptMonkeyDLuffy]

While I don't have a PDA myself, I've always wondered about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of merging phone and PDA. Both tend to be used for storing contact information, I can see that as an argument on the pro side. However, if I were using a PDA for scheduling or note taking purposes, I would think that it would be a fairly common situation to be on the phone while needing to access that functionality... A phone that's good at being a phone, a PDA that's good at being a PDA, and a well thought out scheme of data sharing between the two(as far as contact information goes, unless you want something fancy like PDA programming alarms into your phone based on your calendar...) That seems like a better solution to me. A cell phone/PDA seems like a chisel/hammer to me... Limited because it can't be both at once.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Another big reason goes along with what you stated- the US/European PDA manufacturers are not giving consumers ANY reason to upgrade.

Heck, Im still using an 8mb Handspring Visor I purchased for $100 about four years ago. Since PDA internet functionality sucks anyway, I am getting anything from the internet I really want through Avantgo. The alternatives arent cheaper or better, so where is my incentive to upgrade?

I have to say, however, that Handspring's Treo 600 is step in the right direction, but after being purchased by PalmOne, my opinion is that the company will fuck up eventaully. The Palm executives all suck, failed to capitalize on a market they made, and now will just end up messing up a company which was making more money selling PalmOS devices than they were.

If I had to upgrade right now, it would most likely be to a Windows Mobile device. They are tons more powerful than anything Palm puts out, and have some very interesting connectivity features if you want to geek out. Sad to say, but Palm missed the boat, and nobody besides MS tried to step up. Its not too late, but its very unlikely.

Re:Yes

[devilspgd]

There is a market of people who don't have a Palm because they're too expensive. If all you want is the built in apps (calendar, address book, tasks and memos are generally the most popular) then a $20 "Digital Diary" will do the trick.

Some people will buy a low end Palm and be happy with 512K or whatever of user data.

Some will buy it, like it, overflow the memory and decide to buy a full sized Palm, and presto, new customer who was previously happy with something much smaller (and non-Palm)

Re:Yes

[tasinet]

It's called shouting. The server shouts more and the client [you] tries to focus() the hearing daemon onto the server to get the data(phone #) completelly downloaded.

Re:Yes

[AKAImBatman]

They do. The Palm Zire 21 is sold at Wal-Mart in a blister pack for $80 It has all the functionality of a old Palm 5.

A few problems:

1. Palm made sure that the Zire sucks so that users will upgrade to a larger model.

2. $80 is still far beyond the impulse buy category. $50 is about the maximum people are willing to spend before they become concerned about the price. Price it low enough, and the "coolness" factor will begin to take over. (Anyone seen those keychain Palm ripoffs that Walmart sells?)

3. The Zire is over-engineered for a low-end device. One, maybe two megs plus a backlight is plenty for your beginning user. If they find it highly useful, they'll be willing to upgrade to a much more expensive model.

Re:Yes

[cyberchondriac]

So please tell me, how do you enter the phone number/ address/ important piece of information you've just been told into your cell phone while you are talking on it?

And how would you do it with separate devices ? Most cell phones I've had don't lend themselves very well to cradling them in your neck like a landline phone does (and even some of them aren't too accomdating either). >BR>
On the other hand, if someone is sending you data or information over your cell phone, and/or the room is noisy, why not just have them send a txt message ? Then you can manipulate the data however you like.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I own both a PDA, and a Laptop, and I find that my PDA is mostly useful for carrying information around that I need for day to day use, while my laptop is more of my computer on the go.

"I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for, with the exception of efficient note taking (a feature I rarely see my PDA-owning friends using in practice)"

My cellphone has many of the same functions of my PDA, but it still can't do 3 major things: Read Word documents, display PDFs, and allow encryption of files. These three things are essential to what I do, and therefore make the PDA a required tool.

"that happens to incorporate an additional function PDAs never had, the ability to contact anyone in the world - by message or voice - in seconds."

Actually, the newest iPAQs can connect to a cellular network and make phone calls, although, it is much easier to push a few buttons on a phone than it is to enter the number on the virtual keyboard. And, my cell phone service provider actually charges a higher rate for making phone calls on my PDA than on my cell phone.

I don't think that the PDA will die out anytime soon, but it certainly isn't something that everybody will have.

Re:Yes

[mr_z_beeblebrox]

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for

I think that will be the case in a couple of years but not now. The main reason my company is using PDAs is that they are so expandable. I have bar code readers, wireless networking etc... they are great for the warehouse. Sales reps are taking an interest as well. The cell phones lack sufficient expandibility.

Re:Yes

[atrizzah]

The thing is, PDA's used to be really good at what they were supposed to do, which is manage information. But then, consumer's pushed for the PDA to be more of a portable computer, and the producers have been struggling to produce just the right device

Re:Yes

[Storm]

I'm not sure a laptop will ever make a reasonable replacement for a PDA given the whole PDA thing is about size and convenience.

I agree. Laptops are more bulky than a PDA, and the latest generation of laptops seem to be getting heavier, with the larger displays and the added cooling equipment to keep these heat-intensive modern processors.

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for, with the exception of efficient note taking (a feature I rarely see my PDA-owning friends using in practice)

I actually use mine for not only note taking, the occasional game and contacts, thanks to Baen Books, I use it as my primary book reader. Add to that the security apps (OTP app, encryption programs, etc) that I wouldn't feel comfortable having on my phone.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a bluetooth headset so you can talk. Then, you can enter all the data you want in the phone while you are talking.

Re:Yes

[Abreu]

Gee, your spelling makes me think you posted this using Graphiti...

Re:Yes

[fatcat1111]

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for, with the exception of efficient note taking (a feature I rarely see my PDA-owning friends using in practice)

Are you kidding? Show me a cell phone with WiFi, Exchange, a Game Boy Advance emulator, full MPEG player functionality, Word, Excel, and proper mapping software. That's just some of what I have on my iPAQ.

Re:Yes

[Tassach]

I bought my Palm IIIxe 4 years ago for $70. There's no reason they can't sell an identical or superior device for the same price today. I still use my IIIxe daily. I use it for note taking, to-do list, and e-books (both fiction and tech reference), plus a few games. It does everything I need without being bloated. I don't want to surf the web in meetings -- I want something to augment my memory that's more efficient than a pocket full of sticky notes.
The main feature I love about the older palms is that they run for 2+ weeks on a standard set of AAA batteries. Even if you forget to carry a spare set of batteries, you can buy a new set practically anywhere in the world. No need to worry about remembering to stick it in the charger every night. Try replacing the battery on a PocketPC -- if it's a few years old it would probably be cheaper to replace the whole unit than it would be to get a new battery.

Re:Yes

[x00101010x]

I had a PDA (Casiopea), but never use it now.
Between my subnotebook (Fujitsu P1120 running Mandrake10) and any java enabled cell phone (currently a Motorola v400) and my ability to write anything I need for that phone (java+netbeans cobundle and the SDK from motocoder.com and the ability to post my jad/jar files online or to load them through the cable) I nolonger have any need for a PDA.

If it requires only simple input (such as contacts or transactions) or simple viewing (notes, scaled/broken up maps, etc) then it goes on the phone. If its better suited to a full keyboard and a 1024x600 screen then it goes on the laptop. If it needs real computing power, then it's ssh to the 2.4Ghz AthlonXP system at home and i'm trying to setup a dial in access to my home network so I can use the web from anywhere with cell coverage for free during nights and weekends.(by the way, as these things become more usable, I'll post info in my journal).

I would attribute the decline of the PDA partly to the wide spread adoption of j2me cell phones and the availibility of programs equivelent to those on PDAs for phones (with more limited screens, and so/so input) and the cost of a cellphone which is multipurpose and good enough vs. a PDA.
Another thing I would call a contributing factor on the decline of the PDA, especially in american markets would be similar to why it was hard for me to find a good subnotebook. The majority of the american market (calling all walmart shoppers) are non-tech and just don't want it. The fujitsu p1120 was the only real subnotebook i could find being marketed here in the US. Sony keeps it's best for the japanese market and while you can still get them through sites like dynamism.com, it's expensive. Sony has a few notebooks avail. here in the US (my CFO just got one), but they're more just slim-notebooks and are bulked up by the cdromdrive and touchpad.

Anywho, from my POV, the average american wants a full featured laptop. It will probably be their only machine, and in many cases their first machine in years. They want the freedom to take it anywhere, but don't want the mess and expense of two machines. Thus the relative success of the desktop replacement laptop.
I think there's a parallel to the huge-does-everything-your-desktop-can laptop vs. the does-what-you-need-on-the-go-in-a-small-package subnotebook and the costs-as-much-or-less-does-just-about-the-same-can -take-pictures-and-gotta-have-a-cellphone-anyways j2me enabled phone vs. the costs-as-much-or-more-has-a-bigger-screen-but-less -input-and-is-going-to-have-to-cram-in-my-pocket-w ith-the-phone PDA situation. To the average, walmart shopping, light beer drinking, fast food eating, tv watching, non-techie, mass market american consumer, a PDA just doesn't make sense. And, unfortunately, that's who businesses have to keep in mind when deciding if a product line is worth keeping. Even a large percentage of the on the go, somewhat computer literate, sharper image shopping, sushi eating american businessman has to think if it's really worth spending the $300+ on a PDA or if a j2me enabled phone will suffice.

That's my rabbid rambling 0.02USD.

Re:Yes

[x00101010x]

Oh, uhm... shoulda read more. Please mod me redundant.
And i wasn't thinking of the avg. joe and the billing on phones. cingular is nice enough to bill by bandwidth though and for $20 you can get unlimited (if that's worth it to you).
Unfortunately with J2ME you're limited to the RMS size on the phone for storing data locally, but with BREW phones that isn't as much of a problem. but with brew it's really hard to do home-brew zero development cost (actually impossible). So even if you write j2me apps that are supposed to work offline you'll have a massive issue with storing large amounts of data. of course, i'm still a bit new to phone development, and there may be a way around that to where the filesystem on the phone could be accessed, and maybe even access the built-in phonebook and calendar data using propriatary java classes accessible through the mfr's SDK.

Re:Yes

[undef24]

Check out the Nokia 3600 series phones. You can turn on the speakerphone and then hold the phone in your hand like a PDA.

Re:Yes

[shellbeach]

Budget laptops don't cost significantly more than some high end PDAs, and you get a lot more flexibility.

Sure. But you can't fit a budget laptop in your pocket.

Personally, I have both a phone and a PDA and I'd never consider merging the two. Consider: I want a phone which is small, light, monochrome (to conserve battery power and to make the screen easy to read in sunlight) and with a battery that lasts for a week or more. It should be able to make and receive phone calls and SMSes, and only that. I also want it to have a simple numeric keypad - dialing a phone number by graffiti is not my idea of fun!

In contrast, I want a PDA to have a big high-res, colour screen (for reading text), good audio capabilities and the ability to take flash cards (for listening to music), versatile text input (writing notes using T9 is also not my idea of fun) and the ability to run third-party apps for flexibility.

The two are not compatible - combine the two and you have either a phone which is too bulky and runs out of battery too fast, or a PDA with a screen too small to read anything on and clumsy text input.

Re:Yes

[silentbozo]

Not to throw too many "Amen, brothers!" to the chorus, but I'm still using my original Pilot5000 (which shipped with 512k memory, back in 1996), albeit with the 2mb upgrade (with IR), and a replacement of the plastic case (innards are still original) with the exterior remains of a PalmPro unit that was up on eBay, minus the screen.

I did buy a backup Pilot 5000 (along with the same kind of 2mb + IR upgrade) as a spare for about $50, and I recently purchased a used Sony Clie for about $160, which I use for MP3s and eBooks.

I think the biggest problem was that none of the device manufacturers had the guts to innovate beyond the basic PDA form (other than say Sony, which gave us those fabulous flip-screen Clies, and that company that gave us the PalmOS based wristwatch). This might have had something to do with the previous PDAs in the early 90's not finding a market (ie, the Newton, the MagicLink, etc.) Cell-phone palm units are still basically the same handheld block, just smaller and with an antenna for the cellphone and the number keypad. I would have liked to see PDA-based word processors (I have one from Alphasmart, which could have used a bigger screen, but has a nice full-sized keyboard), PDA-based intercom and communications units (think the intercom from Star Trek, but with a screen), etc.

Re:Yes

[Alioth]

Some cell phones do.

My Nokia 6820 opens out to have a full qwerty keyboard. Closed, it's the same size as most other small cell phones. It does everything I want out of a PDA and I can make phone calls on it and access the Internet with it via GPRS.

PDAs are also too big. My 6820 fits in my pocket, a PDA will fit but would be uncomfortable, say, in my jeans pocket (and probably the touch screen would be easily damaged there. The 6820 on the other hand takes a battering and keeps chugging away).

Re:Yes

[Alioth]

With my Nokia 6820 phone, I just put it on speaker phone and then enter the information into the contacts list. Most modern phones allow you to do other stuff (browse contacts, add an entry in the calendar etc.) whilst talking on them.

Re:Yes

[Hugo Graffiti]

So please tell me, how do you enter the phone number/ address/ important piece of information you've just been told into your cell phone while you are talking on it?

Er... you use a pen and a piece of paper and then type it in when you finish the call. Sooo last century I know but if it saves you $200...

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called typos... only a moron thinks it's bad spelling...

now the turds that type R for are and U for you and their other brain-dead laziness.. they suck.

It's easy to find typos.... look in the parent post you replyed to and it's obvious they are typos as the letter combination are neighboring keys....

99% of the time typo's are caused by crap keyboards.

Re:Yes

[squiggleslash]

Do you have the same functionality on your Palm? Would the lack of that functionality mean it's not a PDA?

What about the Nokia Communicator series? My 9290 lacks WiFi (but will have it in the next version), but has emulators for various games machines, MPEG playback, Word and Excel compatable apps, and GPS/mapping software is available if you want it.

Just like what we call "PDAs", cellphones vary in the amount of functionality available. And there's always Java, if the app you want isn't built in: of the four GSM phones I've bought in the last three years, three (Nokia 9290, Seimens S46, Motorola T720) allow you to install Java programs.

Re:Yes

[gurumeditationerror]

A phone that's good at being a phone, a PDA that's good at being a PDA, and a well thought out scheme of data sharing between the two

Sounds like a particular operating system ideology...

Requisite default answer.

[numbski]

Mobile phones with PDA-like functions are whupping the PDA's out of the market.

Bluetooth r0xx0r j00.

Heck, if the iPod could input calandar and contact info, I definitely wouldn't need a PDA. ;)

Re:Requisite default answer.

[BladesP9]

Um.... It can. I keep all of my OS X address book contacts and my iCal information in my iPod and use this frequently when on the road. I use my iMac account to synchronize all the data from my work mac, my home mac, laptop and iPod so all of my contacts, bookmarks and calendar events go with me wherever I am. It's VERY cool!

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Flabby Boohoo]

That's not PDA functionality. You could accomplish the same thing with a jump drive.

I beleive the parent post was talking about accessing the data with his iPod (you know, one the little LCD screen).

HTH.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[MrRTFM]

The problem is that Mobiles cost money for just about everything you do on them - it can be hard to keep track which options are free and which ones cost 0.17c per click.

They deliberately make it confusing so that the average Joe gets screwed into spending more money than s/he should.
Unless the mobile companies make it completely clear (and permanent) that you can access all your info free - forever, with no hidden catches (including running out of credit / switching providers, etc) - then there will always be a market for PDA's for people who just want access to their data without worrying about paying for the privelage to get it.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Halfbaked Plan]

And there are, of course, security concerns associated with having all your personal info on a wireless-connected device.

Me, I don't mind plopping it in the desktop stand to sync it.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Apreche]

The truth that be. I'm looking forward to the Treo610. Same as the 600 only it has bluetooth and a better screen. I think the ultimate on-the-go setup would be a Treo plus a very small laptop, like the Sony X505. You wouldn't even need an iPod, although they are quite nice. You could stream the audio from your laptop hard drive over bluetooth to the Treo which has headphones plugged into it.

It's the best of every world. You've got a camera, phone, mp3 player, pda and an entire computer. When you're walking about you can check the Treo and when you sit down at the cafe whip out the laptop and get Internet via bluetooth to the Treo. Just gotta increase the bandwith and decrease the latency to make it better and better. It would also be nice if the treo ran linux instead of palmos, but hey, can't complain.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Everleet]

The iPod can display calendar and contact info. It has no input capability, which is what the parent wanted.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can access it on an iPod, you just can't input anything on it (no touchscreen or keyboard).

Re:Requisite default answer.

[=weezer=]

I'm not the GP poster, but you can do this on at least all 3rd gen iPods (not sure about the earlier ones). There's a calendar view that works off the iCalendar format (and if you use Outlook, there are programs that will synch the Outlook pst format to iCalendar style and place it on your iPod), there's a Notes viewer so you can view things like Mail (again, there are conduits etc on Windows, not sure how easy it is to synch mail on Mac OS X), and there's a Contacts feature where you can see name, phone, addresses, etc. The only limitation to all this (and I think this is what the GGP was talking about) is that its read-only, and you can only input when you're back on your main computer, which isn't too practical in terms of writing addresses you've just received in a meeting or such.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[MKalus]

When's the 610 up? I am looking for a new phone / PDA (in that order) and it came down to the P900 / Treo 600 and at one point in time the XDA II.

Right now it looks like only the P900 is the only option as the 600 doesn't have bluetooth and that is one of my core requirements.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[BladesP9]

Unless I'm completely missing the point of his post (which is possible because it IS early sunday morning).

if I turn on my iPod and from the main screen select "extras" there is a "contacts" and "calendars" option there.

Selecting contacts brings up a list of everyone in my contact list on dotMac. Selecting a person shows me (on the LCD) their name, address, phone, email.

Same with calendars.

Now you can't edit this data - nor can you input new data because that would require a better input interface, but you can view the data. So it's not 100% PDA functionality, but it's been handy in many situations when I needed a phone number or an address. You can even put in directions and such in the "notes" section.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[NewWaveNet]

Much agreed.

I just got a Palm Zire71 after living with my Danger Sidekick for the past nine months and I couldn't think of any practicle use for the Palm. While the surface area of the screen may be larger, I can't:

• Use the AIM/Y!/ICQ/MSN
• Use SSH over a rediculously slow connection
• Call people with it

The Palm seems pretty much useless to me. Seeing as Danger did such a nice job with the Sidekick, it has become my lifeline. All the organizational features of a Palm were implemented better in the Sidekick. With its carrier-side syncing, the calendar, todo lists, notes/memos, e-mails, etc are all stored both on my devices "data store" and on Danger's servers...no need to go HotSync it. At one point I had to get a replacement Sidekick (because T-Mobile says that two were produced with the same IMEI) and upon inserting my SIM into the new one, everything down to my preferences for the brightness of the display were moved to the new device without any interaction on my part!

Anyway, my Palm is now being used as a TV remote since Danger is refusing to release any API information for the IR module on the Sidekick. But honestly, why would anyone carry two devices (mobile phone, organizer) when the Sidekick (or another similar device) offers the functionality of both?

Re:Requisite default answer.

[MrRTFM]

Exactly - and the real problems will occur when it comes to net/email access.

There are what, 3-4 different ways this can happen through a PDA/Phone at the moment - and using a PDA, you can be sure you are using a non $/sec method, but with a phone it gets blurry.
"Sorry, sir but when you checked your email at 4:14pm this was at our 'peak rate' and you now owe us lots of dollars."
"But I thought I was using the Wifi access through the coffee shop"
"No sir, that only occurs on every second Wednesday - please pay the $14.50 fee or we will disconnect you."

I know - its just little fees and I should just pay it - but I don't like getting tricked into these fucking schemes which are more and more prevalent these days from the big companies.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[squiggleslash]

A jump drive won't display the contacts and calender. An iPod will.

On my second generation (original form factor but with a touch wheel) iPod with 1.3 of the firmware, they're under Extras->Contacts and Extras->Calendar.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[doc modulo]

This is a bit offtopic but what is the correct way to spell the "to-do" from to-do list?

dictionary.com didn't help

Is it "to do" or "to-do"?
Not knowing this is driving me slowly insane :O

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Saint Stephen]

I just bought a $499 iPaq 4355, $140 512MB SD card, and $349 Bluetooth GPS. The Ipaq has built-in 802.11B plus Bluetooth, plus a built in keyboard on the bottom. It weighs 5 ounces.

I went down to the local coffee shop with free wireless internet. It's totally worth it. So much easier than lugging out a laptop.

I never bought a PDA before this one: the processor is finally fast enough, there is enough storage, and most importantly a keyboard, and the software finally doesn't suck.

$1000 for all the stuff and totally worth every penny.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

pardon me for asking a dumb question then. why the hell did you buy a palm zire if you have no use for it?

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Fred_A]

It's usually spelled "that was due yesterday"

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Methuseus]

Why would it be better for it to run linux? would you get more functionality? Possibly, but would you use it?

Also, PalmOS is integrated to the hardware like Mac OS is tied to their Mac hardware. I like this for a handheld where I can't tinker with the hardware anyway, though I don't especially like it in the Mac (personal opinion, I don't have any problem with those that prefer Macs unless it's some fuzzy "this is faster" thing. That goes for if they prefer PCs because they are "faster").

Re:Requisite default answer.

[mattyrobinson69]

a PC for the same price is faster - thats why ive got one

if you compare a top end mac to a top end PC, a mac may be faster - i dont know. if you compare bang for the buck, pc is definately faster.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[whovian]

I could tell you, but then I'd get probably get sued for patent infringement.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[monopole]

Last time I checked you couldn't back off your data from the sidekick or install non-cellphone approved software on it.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[dnoyeb]

Thats why I have a handspring treo. Its a Palm + phone. I'd rather have a PDA + phone, than a Phone + PDA.

Of course the treo 180 that I have has terrible software bugs. bugs tied to the apearantly shoddy integration of cellphone and pda technology. Im hoping the newer models don't suffer this...

Re:Requisite default answer.

[re-Verse]

Heck, if the iPod could input calandar and contact info, I definitely wouldn't need a PDA.

I have a 40 gig model, and mine has clock and calendar built in, as well as notes, contacts, and games... I'm not sure how long these features have been there, but - they are there.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[BusterB]

It is 'to-do' because we hyphenate compound adjectives. A compound adjective is made up of two or more descriptive words that are intended to be used together. For instance:

A 'baby mulching machine' is a juvenile machine that mulches. A 'baby-mulching machine' is a machine that mulches babies. Similarly, unless there is a such thing as a 'to list' and a 'do list', it should be 'to-do list'.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Moofie]

Uh huh. And how do you input a new phone number when you're away from your computer?

You can't. Hence the problem.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[hawkeyeMI]

Just remember, you're usually the limiting factor, while the PC sits around and waits for input, so how well you interact with the machine makes a difference. For me, OS X is an incredibly good interface, but I'm writing this in KDE on a PC so eh, whatever. I go back and forth.

Raw price/performance ratio isn't everything, is what I'm getting at.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[wskellenger]

I just got a Palm Zire71 after living with my Danger Sidekick for the past nine months and I couldn't think of any practicle use for the Palm. While the surface area of the screen may be larger, I can't: [list of three things that you can only do with a connected device]

You were aware that the Zire couldn't do these things when you bought it, weren't you? The Sidekick is sold by TMobile as a phone with e-mail and IM services, plus it doubles as an organizer. The Zire has no wireless connectivity other than Bluetooth. Your complaints above don't seem to be valid. Further, why would you buy the Zire if you're perfectly happy with the organizing functions of the Sidekick?

But honestly, why would anyone carry two devices (mobile phone, organizer) when the Sidekick (or another similar device) offers the functionality of both?

One of the big limitations of most phones that have PDA functionality is the UI. I don't want to enter appointments with the tiny little keyboard on my phone. I prefer the pen input of the Palm when I'm in a meeting. The touch screen gets me to my datebook month or week view in a few taps.

Move to something like the Sidekick or the Treo, and you get a phone with PDA functionality, but you give up size. PDA phones are huge. I keep my standard, no-frills GSM phone in my pocket at all times, and at about 3 oz and a smaller footprint (4.0 x 1.8 x 0.8 inches) I don't even know it's there. (This is a cheap Siemens GSM M46 phone, has a calendar/AIM/e-mail capability w/ T-Mobile). As I mentioned, I don't use the calendar functions with the phone as the interface is too cumbersome.

T-Mobile (Danger) Sidekick

Size: 4.6 x 2.6 x 1.1 inches
Weight: 6.0 ounces
Included battery: Lithium ion
Talk time: 3.5 hours
Standby time: 2.5 days
MSRP: $399 US

Source: T-Mobile.com

PalmOne Treo 600

Size: 4.4 x 2.4 x 0.9 inches
Weight: 5.9 ounces (GSM model)
Included battery: Lithium ion
Talk time: 6 hours (GSM model)
Standby time: 10 days (GSM model)
MSRP: $449 US

Source: PalmOne.com

At any rate, if you're going to go with the larger PDA/phone solution, why not go with the Palm unit? An open API and thousands of available applications seems like a better route to me...

Re:Requisite default answer.

[mattyrobinson69]

ive never tried OSX, and i doubt i ever will (unless they release an x86 version)

i am very happy with KDE - i think thats a very productive interface

if i get the chance to try OSX, i will (if pear gets better) but i doubt it could match the configurability of KDE.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got a Palm Zire71 after living with my Danger Sidekick for the past nine months and I couldn't think of any practicle use for the Palm.

Does it have a spell-checker?

Oh, and if you can't find any practical use for your palm, you've got some problems...

Re:Requisite default answer.

[dubl-u]

Of course the treo 180 that I have has terrible software bugs. bugs tied to the apearantly shoddy integration of cellphone and pda technology. Im hoping the newer models don't suffer this...

I have the 300. It's not particularly buggy, but I still don't know that I'd recommend it to others at the current price. The phone integration is only ok, it has a short battery life, it's pretty pokey, and it's not physically robust. My friends who have the Treo 600 say it's a much better device.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[mmcleod]

The two words are not descriptive. The word "to-do" actually is a misappropriation of the infinitive "to do" which is a form of the verb "do." One of the beautiful things about the English language is its corruptibility.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[pimephalis]

But honestly, why would anyone carry two devices (mobile phone, organizer) when the Sidekick (or another similar device) offers the functionality of both?


I can tell you why I carry two devices rather than one: I'm terrified of losing my contact and calendar information. I live and breathe, during the working week, with my palm nearby. I've had my PDA break on me in the past, and it's a near disaster until I can get it replaced.

Cellphones and multifunction devices are generally pretty fragile and given the amount of use they get, don't have great life spands. For me, if I had a combo device and got bumped on the subway or what have you, leading to a broken device, I'd not just be without my phone as without my appointment book, address book, essential files etc.

I carry two devices in order to make sure I only lose either the phone or the contact list, but not both.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Zemrec]

I've never owned a PDA, but I do have an iPod which sees heavy use, and a prepaid cellphone which sees light use. I don't like carrying both devices. And both are a few years old, I can't see a good enough reason to upgrade at the moment.

But if Apple (or even someone else) were to come out with a combo hard drive music-player that worked well with a program like iTunes, cell phone, and PDA (and whose price wouldn't force me to amputate..), I'd buy one on the spot.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[NewWaveNet]

You havn't checked in a long time then. I'm a registered Danger Developer, and trust me...I have/run tons of non-approved software. The reason this isn't "easy" to-do, is because Danger supports all of the software you can purchase through the Catalog.

Sidekick Developer Resource
Danger Developer Center

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Joe Tie.]

Why would it be better for it to run linux? would you get more functionality? Possibly, but would you use it?

For me, the reason is just that I'm used to writing for Linux. Having the same, or nearly the same libraries on both my desktop and pda is just a nice timesaver.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[wulfhound]

The Treo 600 is nearly there. Now if they could just... ... fit a hard drive and some non-volatile memory ... make the camera not suck ... and solve the general reliability problems it really would be the ultimate pocket phone/player/pda.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[wulfhound]

Linux = access to free software.

PalmOS = having to pay $25 a time for things which very often should be either free, or included by default (call timer and GPRS/GSM data meter, anyone)?

Re:Requisite default answer.

[wulfhound]

Better than the 300, maybe, but still far from perfect. In my experience, the Treo 600 is roughly at the Windows 95A stage in evolution... I have bright hopes for the future of the Treo, but the 600 leaves a lot to be desired.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[devilspgd]

So quit bitching, write the app and GPL it. You are aware that you can write opensource software on virtually any OS you like, no?

Re:Requisite default answer.

[acxr is wasted]

I know you're in Australia, but it may be worth giving the data plans from cell phone carriers the once-over again. Here in the States, carrier T-Mobile offers unlimited data access to their customers for $20 US a month. With a Bluetooth capable phone and laptop or PDA, this is pretty close to that "holy grail" of wireless. Granted, it's only dial-up speed, but anything to get rid of those wretched meters.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[coopaq]

They deliberately make it confusing so that the average Joe gets screwed into spending more money than s/he should.

You would do well to picture it the size of a payphone or parking meter and hear a voice asking you to put quaters into that giant thing you're carryin next to your ear.

Just write payphone on the cover so you realize what it is when you go to use it.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[jechonias]

I too use my combi palm / cell (kyocera 7135) all the time and wouldn't be without it for the world.

However I couldn't write on it in most meetings as fast as I would like to take down notes, its too slow. I often transcribe the information after the meeting and I am considering investing in an external keyboard or usb transfer device.

How do you manage to take down the notes quick enough?

The biggest problem with a proper PDA that most slashdotters don't realise is that the geek crowd aren't the target market. I use the pda to make money from, I am a consultant where the ability to remember huge ammounts of information/ such as contacts / meetings / notes etc is directly relatable to my income, therefore the cost is immaterial to me.

The ability to stay organised at this price is fine for me, I care only about the ability to get the information into my palm quicker!!

jech

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a real bitch to write software for palmos. Linux is the easiest platform to code for I've ever seen. Especially since you can just download and compile ruby to fit in a few MB of space, then write in that.

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Planesdragon]

A palm is not an internet device.

Repeat after me: A palm is not an internet device.

It simply was not designed to be used as a web browser. It's intended to be a "mobile personal computer"--the type of glorified calculator that we used before the 'net came long, not the "digital media portal" that the home PC has evolved into.

I use my Zire 71 everyday to:

Keep an address book & calendar

Read news articles from a palm-specific news site

Write with my folding keyboard

Play games while I'm on the bus

Take a quick picture of something around me.

If you try and use a palm for something it's not meant to do, you'll come up just as short as if you were to try and use my tiny cell-phone to play games or keep a calendar. (Though, truth be told, it could do a nice calendar, and I wish they'd all #@$@%ing sync... but that's neither here nor there.)

Re:Requisite default answer.

[fastgood]

While the surface area of the screen may be larger, I can't use AIM/Y!/ICQ/MSN

The experience I have with my userbase is they LOVED their Blackberrys (me too).
My Abacus 1-way wrist radio (FM) pushes my work calendar and receives MSN Messenger.
Who could ask for anything more ...

Re:Requisite default answer.

[brayn]

While you are correct about hyphen usage in American English, there are some important considerations to take into account. Firstly, neither the word "to" nor the word "do" are adjectives. Which makes my first question, "How can two non-adjectives form a compound adjective?" It is important to note that the usage of the word "to-do" in front of "list" does NOT make it an adjective. A "grocery list" is a list of groceries. Therefore, it seems logical to conclude that a "'to-do' list" is a list of to-dos. This brings me to my second point, that the usage of the word "to-do" as a hyphenated word is used to represent a fuss, brouhaha, hubbub, etc. If one has a list of such events, then we would call it a list of to-dos. (And consequently one would have a hectic life if they have such a list.) Rather than being some complex compound adjective, to do is a simple infinitive. I went to the store to buy groceries. The verb is "went". "To buy" is the infinitive form of the verb "buy". A reasonable explanation of the history of the "to do list" is that it is a shortening. I have to do this. I have to do that. Don't forget to do this at this time. It is much simpler to say, do this, that, etc. As found at m-w.com "to do : necessary to be done". But what's the big to-do about this whole mess? (Sorry, I had to get that in there) If your life is more unstable than is normal, it is a "to-do list". As for the rest of us it is a "to do list", but never a "todo list".

Re:Requisite default answer.

[brayn]

Thank you mmcleod. I was slightly behind your posting on this one, it is comforting to see that other people caught onto the big to-do about the usage "to-do". If anyone is curious, do, dare, dedi, datus is the Latin verb for do, where "dare" (pronounced dahri) is the infinitive. So... when you received dares in grammar school, you really were receiving "to do" lists. If the need is seen to shorten the "to do list" to "todo list" we might as well call it "dares". "Contacts, Calendar, Dares, Time..."

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly...I have TMo and as long as you aren't retarded there aren't any hidden fees. Just RTFM, it says you'll get charged 5 per text message. I sent some..and got charged - no surprize there. There aren't really any hidden fees, just dumb people. If you read your contract there is no problem - just because you are willing to sign something and give a stranger money under unknown conditions doesn't mean the rest of us are.
And I have a Nokia 3650 - Bluetooth, IR, Wireless Web (HTML and WAP),Wireless Email, contact/outlook sync, Expandable memmory, Camera / Video Camera,Java, Symbian OS (sweet as hell) replacable face plates, a round dial that keeps dumb people from using my phone :),Speakerphone...
What was the parent poster saying again? PDA's are dead...

Re:Requisite default answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus you have large companies, like the one I work for, that refuse to allow PDAs to be installed on their network unless they are specific brand and type (in this case Blackberry) purchased by the company for the individual. The penalty for violating the policy, such as installing your own, is termination.

In my case, my Zire 71 is now virtually useless since I only purchased it to serve as a mobile, and easily accessible calendar.

PDAS == teh suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what actual real use were they to anyone? What can you do with a PDA that you can't do with a mobile phone? Can anyone even pretend to be surprised?

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[portnux]

Well, I use my PDA to read books and would think a phone would be a really poor reader given the small screen and smaller battery life. Personally, I don't find carrying a PDA in my shirt pocket and a cell phone on my hip to be that cumbersome.

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[AWHITEMAN]

Guess you haven't seen the Motorolla MPX, XDA II/III, HP 6300 series... many new MS based PDA/Phones full PDA size screens.

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[Conor Turton]

GPS SatNav. Apart from the XDA2 which is only available in the UK with one cellular provider the choices are PDA or dedicated install.

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[SanityInAnarchy]

Qwriting notes -- most phones don't have a pen, and I will never be close to fast at typing on an interface meant for entering 7-10 digit numbers. Of course, now I have a laptop, so I'd never actually buy a PDA -- or an iPod.

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[rongten]

For one, you cannot connect devices like keyboards,
gpses etc. etc.

Can you install a diet program in a phone as easily as in a pda?

Can you program your pda?

A pda is a programmable computer, can be said the same for a phone (running maybe a proprietary OS) ?

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[mikael]

Seriously, what actual real use were they to anyone?

I used to have one for taking notes during lectures and presentations. The advantage over paper was that I could insert paragraphs of text whenever the speaker went back over something. With paper, I'd have to put a ring around the text along with an arrow indicating where it should go, and then have to retype the whole lot back when I got back into the office. Most speakers would have the overhead slides printed out as handouts, with a few having CD-ROMs. The truely enlightened had them available on the web, ready to be downloaded. A wireless network connection would really have helped in this case.

But, if I had a high-speed wireless connection, then I'd want to be to make VoIP telephone calls. Also, being able to take photographs of overhead slides and whiteboard diagram would also be desirable. All of these additional features are now supported by mobile phones (at least in Japan). So there isn't much left that a PDA can do that a mobile phone can't do.

Re:PDAS == teh suck

[portnux]

Actually I have seen the combination/crossover devices but see one problem with them. Compare any of those to my phone (basically free after rebate when I signed up for service) and my PDA which was about $200. I've never seen a good combination phone/PPC for anything like that price. And With a combination device, when it dies it's dead. With separates if one dies I can still either call someone and complain or play a game of Hot Death Uno.

You know...

[tokachu(k)]

...it could be that people in the U.S. are no longer interested in spending $400 on a PDA when they can get a cheap $50 Palm with no frills. Just my two cents.

Re:You know...

[Fizzol]

A palm is just as much a PDA as a Pocket PC.

Re:You know...

[mtg101]

Over here in Europe it's probably more of a comparison between a 400 PDA or a phone with PDA capabilities that comes for basically free with a 12 month phone contract. It's hard to get a new phone these days without a colour screen, downloadable java apps, built-in camera with picture messaging, PIM capabilities, bluetooth wireless connectivity, radio, and a battery life that beats PDAs by a long way.

Re:You know...

[ThisIsFred]

Maybe it's because PDAs are fairly worthless. I always used to get a kick out of all the administrators at meetings that would sit there and squint as it took them two minutes to write a two-word sentence using "Graffiti" letters. The smarter ones brought collapsible keyboards. After 7 years with my PDA, I finally settled for a paper notebook; A notebook never runs out of batteries during a meeting, doesn't cost $300, and allows me to take down information quickly, and it's legible.

If you go through real office supply companies (sorry, Staples and Office Max don't count), you can get paper notepads for pennies, as well as a box of pens that will last your for years. I go to a meeting, take notes manually, then after the meeting I copy in the important dates, phone numbers and e-mail addresses into my PDA. The sheet of handwritten notes goes into a file (so I have a record of what happened). I use less batteries for my PDA than everyone else as well.

Re:You know...

[Anonymous Coward]

Psh, yeah, right... We Americans love spending money on stuff we don't need. I mean look at you - you just spent 2 pennies on a single line of comment!

Re:You know...

[jtwronski]

...it could be that people in the U.S. are no longer interested in spending $400 on a PDA when they can get a cheap $50 Palm with no frills. Just my two cents.

I fit into that category entirely. I spent US$40 on a refurb'd Palm M100 2 years ago, and don't have any intention of replacing it in the near future. Calendar, alarm clock, phone book, dopewars, some super-advanced software I use to track my billable hours (*cough* text file *cough*), and thats all the functionality I need. I can only imagine that there are many others out there like me that just don't need all the bells and whistles of a modern pda. Is it time to declare the pda dead? No, IMHO, just really really slow.

Re:You know...

[Methuseus]

You are correct, but there is the fact that a Palm is so much cheaper than a PocketPC and even a Clie. If you worked in a store that sold these things, the people who buy the PocketPCs are generally arrogant and the type that, when you see them 5 months later, gave it away. Otherwise they get it because work gave them one to use and they can't stand the thought of learning a new system (PalmOS). Oh, and there are the users that imagine that PalmOS is going to be soooooo hard to figure out compared to PocketPC.

As for the Palms people will use them for familiarity. Those that have used both generally go back to Palm for the lower price and ease of use. I have seen people go the other way, as well, though.

I personally love Palms and hate PocketPCs. Palms are cheaper for equivalent function and I find them generally easier to use. PocketPCs are too much like a shrunken down version of XP that generally is slow and tries to escape the tiny screen as often as it can. I liken it to using 640x480 resolution on a 21 inch monitor and ten adding extra-large fonts to it.

Re:You know...

[Waffle Iron]

Yep, my PDA is at the bottom of a drawer. A couple of years ago I "upgraded" to an $0.89 Mead 3x5-inch 80-sheet notepad, along with a tiny keychain pen to operate it. It fits in my pocket, holds all of my contact info, calender info, and todo lists, and has great ergonomics.

Re:You know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd use clay tablets, but the gas for the kiln is really prohibitively expensive.

Plus, it's hard to find a good stylus in the city. The commercial ones aren't shaped right, and it's hard to find a good reed to cut to size.

Re:You know...

[Reverant]

A notebook never runs out of batteries

...and a pen never runs out of ink, as we all know.

Re:You know...

[Frobnicator]

Maybe it's because PDAs are fairly worthless

Or maybe it's because you are using them for useless things. There are plenty of uses where PDA's are *much* better than laptops.

The company I just left was using them as a 'portable screen' for hardware devices, and that's getting to be a more common thing.

When the engieer or repair person has to go out in the field, laptops are a real pain. When you have to be up a ladder or on a cherry-picker hoist, it becomes a chore to boot up a laptop, balance it on your knee or ladder or box or whatever (hoping it doesn't fall, which DOES happen), configure the hardware, turn off and disconnect the laptop, etc. It is MUCH easier to use a PDA (in our case it was Palm devices) connect the wires on both ends, hit power (instant on!) check off a half-dozen settings, and pull the cords out.

They cost a LOT less to replace, and they take a lot more abuse than most laptops. If you drop them 20 feet onto the grass, they usually survive. Their batteries aren't drained after 3 hours in the field, and they're a lot easier to carry, especially if you have a belt holster. You can usually use your finger rather than a stylus, where you needed two hands to type on the laptop leaving none to hold it. Thats only a few of the benefits.

My guess is that you'll start seeing this type of use increase dramatically -- it saved us quite a bit of both time and money.

Re:You know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I write as fast and much more readable on my clie than I can on paper.

And yes, let's start yet-another feature comparison between paper and PDAs... As if this /. thread doesn't have any yet.

Re:You know...

[ThisIsFred]

You can't be serious. How many months of daily use do the batteries in a PDA endure? Do your notes disappear when your ink runs out? How much do batteries cost compared to a ball point pen?

Re:You know...

[ThisIsFred]

Or maybe it's because you are using them for useless things. There are plenty of uses where PDA's are *much* better than laptops.

The market suggests that I use them for exactly the purpose I mentioned, hence the name "personal data assistant". That is exactly the purpose for which my colleagues use them. But good point about specialized purposes. I agree that this is definitely an area of growth for handheld computers.

Re:You know...

[loftwyr]

And then you lose your notepad...

I use mine constantly. And the fact that the data is continuously backed up makes me happy.

Losing meeting notes, contacts, meetings, etc. just becuase I lost my datebook would keep me awake at night.

can't be!

[Anonymous Coward]

that would make the Star Trek future all wrong!

Re:can't be!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily...PDAs/PADDs will make a comeback when they stop costing money.

Re:can't be!

[evocate]

Yeah right. Set for stun.

Decline in the market?

[thogard]

Does that people have started using the PDA features in their phones now?

Re:Decline in the market?

[Everleet]

Yeah, though I'd hardly call that a decline. The markets have simply merged and become more popular than ever.

seriously,

[Anonymous Coward]

it's like buying a car how many do you need before the market is saturated?

That depends...

[dotslashconfig]

I see people fucking and making kissy faces in the street all the time. So in that respect - no, PDA's are alive and well... and arousing.

That reminds me... the Olsen Twins turned 18 today.

Re:That depends...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kewl,

Now they need to get Nekid. =)

Re:That depends...

[kunudo]

What's this talk about a PDA industry then?

Re:That depends...

[miketang16]

Dear god... good point... I love how that bit of information interests me, but yet has no relevant utility at all. At least we can dream...

Smart phones

[viniosity]

I generally use my SX1 for all my PDA functions these days. It doubles to play my OGG files and I can even watch some old South Park videos on it. The only reason I value a PDA at all after owning this phone is for the ability to use it on an airplane...

It sounds silly, but if we could disable the phone part of a smartphone it could actually be more useful!

Re:Smart phones

[hayds]

Some phones (Sony Ericsson P800 / P900 for example) have 'airplane mode' alongside normal, silent, etc. This turns off the mobile phone part of the phone and just gives you the all the other bits.

So yeah, looks like someone's already though of it :)

Re:Smart phones

[Troed]

When I start my Sony Ericsson P800 it asks me whether I want the phone (think rf) parts on or off (airplane-mode).

So, you simply have the wrong smartphone ;)

Re:Smart phones

[Inda]

Siemens phones do this too.

Re:Smart phones

[Linker3000]

The only hassle with 'airplane' or 'flight' mode on a phone is convincing a frantic steward/ess or passenger that you are NOT using your 'phone'. I find a PDA attracts much less attention.

In general, a PDA will always have a bigger screen than a smartphone, or the phone will be absurdly large. My wife's SonyEricsson P900 is the best attempt I've seen so far at a hybrid but it's still a chunky phone that doesn't quite make it as a PDA, screenwise.

Like another poster hereabouts, I prefer a simple (small) phone and a full-blown PDA with wifi and bluetooth.

L3K

PS: Posted via my iPAQ from the street outside my house via wifi while keeping an eye on my 4-year-old son on his bike.

Re:Smart phones

[Anonymous Coward]

The convergence of cameras into PDA/phones is another thing that gets in the way. Many business places and plants simply wont let you take anything with a camera through security.

Re:Smart phones

[kmccoy]

On most of the flights I have been on lately they specifically disallow even "airplane mode." I assume this is so that flight attendants don't have to examine exactly how you're using your phone/pda. It's much simpler for them to be able to tell you to turn it off and stow it because it is a phone.

Of course, I think the whole thing with cell phones and airplanes needs to be addressed. If it is dangerous to use cell phone while the aircraft is in flight, it should be checked somehow. I follow the rules but have occasionally forgotten to turn off my phone while it was stowed in my carry-on. In fact I once forgot to shut it off, had my bag gate-checked (on a tiny commuter aircraft), and retrieved it at the destination to see that I had missed several calls. I know that cell phones emit RF noise even while just receiving the ringing signal, because my computer speakers have a crappy unshielded amp and picks it up -- a distinctive popping sound.

Maybe once they figure out this problem, combination cell phones/PDAs will be allowed to be used on flights again.

Of course, I just looked at American Airlines' policy and they say that you may use cell phone/PDA combinations if the flight attendant can verify that the transmitting capabilites are turned off. Southwest Airlines' policy isn't so clear. So it apparantly varies by airline.

Re:Smart phones

[cybpunks3]

>>
In general, a PDA will always have a bigger screen than a smartphone, or the phone will be absurdly large. My wife's SonyEricsson P900 is the best attempt I've seen so far at a hybrid but it's still a chunky phone that doesn't quite make it as a PDA, screenwise.

The thing is, these days there is far more of a need for horizontal screen real-estate than vertical. And the default orientation of PDAs, while facilitating one-handed use, makes things like webpages an exercise in futility.

And no, screen reorientation doesn't solve everything because then if you have one of those thumbpads it's now at a 90' angle.

I really think that the best form-factor for a PDA-like device is a clamshell with a foldout keyboard that swivels like the Sony UX-50 or the Zaurus C series.

The fact that there is so much of a heated debate with a topic like this indicates that we are definitely at a crossroads. The marketplace is changing and PDAs are slow to react to what the market wants. Sure, some people still use PDAs as glorified notepads, but that's not where the money is to be made. Heck, I bought a keychain "PDA" that does that for less than $10.

PDAs came around before the web and wireless internet. They came around before tiny hard drives could be embedded in them (i.e. iPod). They came around before the PC hit complete mainstream penetration. PDA manufactures continue to see the market for these things in "vertical" or corporate terms. The fact of the matter is that the real money is to be made from the average joe.

That's why people are looking to smart phones. Because everyone has cell phones. Not just medical professionals or salespeople or any other PDA niche.

Not only that, but personal media devices like the iPod are fast becoming as ubiquitous as the walkman in the 80s.

Meanwhile, laptop profits are outpacing desktop profits. Wasn't it last year that Steve Jobs said it was the "year of the laptop"?

We're at the point where portable computing is the primary thing computer users want in a new hardware purchase, but there are too many single-purpose devices out there.

Sooner or later the market will settle on a new standard and I think it's likely to center around a machine with a built in hard drive, probably something like the upcoming Archos AV500.

Re:Smart phones

[plumby]

I've forgotten who said it originally, but if cell phones really were dangerous on planes, why don't terrorists use them to blow up the plane, and why do airports x-ray your shoes before you get on the plane, but still allow you to carry you cell phone with you.

Re:Smart phones

[Mr_Silver]

Some phones (Sony Ericsson P800 / P900 for example) have 'airplane mode' alongside normal, silent, etc. This turns off the mobile phone part of the phone and just gives you the all the other bits.

Unfortunately you'll still get asked to turn it off on an aeroplane because the cabin crew aren't trained to spot these kind of phones or verify that they really are in flight mode.

Handtops

[CommanderData]

I think that the PDA world will take a dive once Handtop computers become available. Computers like the OQO, Flipstart and the Sony VGN-U70 will start to take over. Why have a PDA when you can bring the actual applications and data you want with you anywhere.

Things may not really take off till the second generation of these devices, but I'm looking forward to taking one of them for a test drive.

Re:Handtops

[Moofie]

OK, call me crazy, but maybe an application designed for a computer with a big keyboard, mouse, and monitor won't work quite so well on a computer with a teeny keyboard, mouse, and monitor.

If the UI isn't fast and easy to use, it's useless. And if I have to boot a PC in order to get a phone number, it's useless.

Thanks, I'll keep my Palm III.

Re:Handtops

[vivek7006]

PDAs have a very good battery life. These devices will be useless unless they have comparable battery life.

From OQO website
"Battery life 2-6 hours, depending on usage "

2 hrs is bullshit.

Re:Handtops

[screwballicus]

Why have a handheld device run Windows XP of all things? These are clearly distinguished from a full-fledged laptop, as they don't have a full keyboard usable for typing. And they're dependent on even more minimal battery resources than is a laptop. So why have them run the most bloated desktop operating system in existence?

That's insane. Especially because Pocket PCs already do all the things a portable like this could be useful for. If you NEED a desktop operating system capable of running on a portable, you can get a Linux PDA. I'm having a hard time thinking of reasons why Windows XP and ONLY Windows XP would be absolutely necessary to productivity on a business portable not suitable for typing.

For now, machines like this are for people who think running the most resource-hungry operating system possible on a platform for which it isn't customised is the best option.

Re:Handtops

[firewood]

I think that the PDA world will take a dive once Handtop computers become available.

Handtop PC's, their current OS's, and the application suites that run on them are simply not designed to sip only milliamps of power while doing their expected functions. The weight of a useful battery will limit how small they can go.

Whereas the total CPU cycles and cache footprint (OS, app & data) of a PalmOS handheld running a PIM app or e-book reader is several orders of magnitudes smaller, with the resulting much smaller battery requirement for many typical portable uses (e.g. not photoshop).

Re:Handtops

[refactored]

I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20 years ago. When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, Where are they all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob! Years later, I went back to the same hotel. I noticed the room keys had been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors. There was a computer in every doorknob. Danny Hillis

And every embedded device and doorknob has a lousy cruddy interface.

The true future for PDA's is to be a decent universal interface for every embedded device around it.

Afraid so.

[James A. S. Joyce]

The PDA is failing for the same reason 3G technology has a slow uptake and is in danger of slipping into moribundency. It's just too much technology that's useless in such a small device while you're on the move. Who really wants to do wordprocessing with something half the size of a tissue box while they're sitting on the toilet? The tech just isn't feasible; it's cramped and the UI is poor. Costs are still ramped up, which doesn't help either.

Re:Afraid so.

[tepples]

Who really wants to do wordprocessing with something half the size of a tissue box while they're sitting on the toilet?

I do, almost. Sometimes I get really bad (censored: Too Much Information), and I don't want code or documentation ideas to slip away from me while I'm sitting on the toilet. My laptop is five years old and nowhere near instant-on. If I could find a lightweight, inexpensive, battery-powered laptop device that could run a text editor and run it well, I'd buy it.

Re:Afraid so.

[rongten]

You can, on the other hand, read the e-book you were
reading yesterday night, or even write down
a memo or an e-mail.

That's a shame...no, really it is.

[schild]

Well, not really. Companies were making laptops smaller and smaller upon the release of the centrino chip thereby rendering the wimpy (by comparison) PDAs obsolete. But that wasn't really the final nail in the coffin - mobile phone manufactures kept upping the resolution on cell phones screens while increasing their size centimeter by centimeter. The result is a mobile phone that can store all your necessary info in one pocket, and computers that you had no reason not to take on lunch break and inbetween home and work.

PDAs were a gimmick, nothing more. No matter how shiny they got, and no matter how many I owned (which amounted to 3 at one point, a palm V, a palm Vx, and one of those ridiculous Sony Clie jobbers) they still couldn't replace the ease of use a cell phone provided me.

Gaming on them was a horrific joke as well. What with the release of the PSP on the horizon and my Gameboy SP charging next to me through USB, the PDAs of the world were simply replaced by superior technology.

This happens to fads. I don't see many people wearing 'hammer pants' anymore, despite the fact they provided the same use as any other pair of pants.

++
I make no apologies for the run-on sentences contained above.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[miracle69]

I disagree that PDAs are a gimmick. Maybe for most people they were, but they've led a silent revolution in medicine. My PDA is indespensible, and I know of no young physician who doesn't rely on one heavily.

It can store several texts at once, drug information (including indication, dosing, and interactions), and most importantly the ever-revolving formulary your insurance company uses. There are many programs that make calculating certain medically related formulas a cinch.

The PDA may be dead for the general public, but it has found quite a nice niche in medicine.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[schild]

Heh, that doesn't sound very much like a PDA. It sounds more like a medical appliance. I know I'm just picking nits, but when something is changed to accomodate the needs of a specific industry, it ceases to function in it's role for the general public. So the article is still correct; PDAs are dead.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[miracle69]

Define PDA.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[AmericanInKiev]

You've touched it really - these things need to solve a real 9 to 5 problem. And for doctors - probably because doctors don't bring their desk to the bedside - the PDA is the right thing.

But hospitals have invested heavily in the WIFI infrastructure to accomidate a PDA in the hostpital almost like a cellphone in the outside world.

That said - i think the real tool for medicine is a simple barcode reader - scanning patient tags, medicine bottles, blood pressure readings, and a range of tests into a portable scanner - allows the objective facts of medicine to be collected in real time and consolidated without double entry.

You mention cross checking medicines - that can be done by scanning the patients current collection of pill bottles - and the recommended new entry, the patient id and - viola - a printed drug cross check.

AIK

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies were making laptops smaller and smaller upon the release of the centrino chip...

I thought we all agreed that the "centrino" thing is really just a marketing term used for the prepackaging of features that had existed well before...So, by using a new marketing term, computers have gotten smaller??? [remember, centrino refers to a Pentium-M + 802.11b/g]

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[tepples]

that doesn't sound very much like a PDA. It sounds more like a medical appliance.

No, it remains a PDA, running a medical appliance application. Have we forgotten that PDA stands for "personal digital assistant"?

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[janoc]

Well, it depends. I owned a Visor, one Clie, Tungsten C and now I have a Zaurus C760. I have also cell phone which has some rudimentary PDA functions (calendar, notes, addressbook). It all comes down to what you want to use the device for.

If you need just to keep track of phone numbers and occassional appointment, then probably a PDA is an overkill for you. The same if you expect a PC-like functionality from it. It was just not intended for that use.

However, if you need an ultra-portable device, which is capable of decent networking (there are no cell phones with WiFi and data connections via e.g. GPRS are very slow and for exorbitant prices.), has usable screen for data entry and a bit of computing power to handle e.g. VPN, decent mail client and web browser, then probably a cell phone is not going to cut it. Also I want my cell phone small, not a huge brick it would have to be if the manufacturer wanted to accomodate large screen usable for PDA functions. Just look at the Treo smartphones, they are very big for a phone and the screens are still the good old crappy 160x160 Palm resolution (not sure about the recent 600 Treo). And Treos are probably the best PDA-phone combination (or smartphone if you want) that there is on the market today.

Compared to laptops, yeah, laptop is more powerful than any PDA, that's true. However, my Visor ran on one set of AAA batteries for two weeks with normal use and over 12 hours with intensive use in a day long meeting entering data via external keyboard. Even the most recent Centrino laptops have problems to last that long. Not to mention the portability - I am carrying my Zaurus all the time with me, my T41 Thinkpad has 2.5kg, which do not count as a brick yet, but are not something pleasant to constantly lug around neither.

Finally, usage patterns - with PDA, you can just whip it out, power it up, look up some phone number or whatever and turn it off again in seconds. That's about the time you manage to type something on your cell phone fighting with the clumsy interface or your laptop starts to be usable after waking up from suspend.

So, I do not think that because Sony exited the market with their horribly overpriced and often flaky PDAs, which refused to support e.g. Compact Flash because it would undercut the sales of their expensive Memorysticks (even in the NZ line, which had the slot for that - the slot can be used only for their proprietary and very expensive WiFi card), the whole market is going down the drain. There is a saturation in the market and little compeling reason to buy a new PDA if your old one still works fine. The amount of innovation brought by Palm, Sony and HP (iPaqs ..) is abysmal in recent years, so no wonder that people do not buy. The largest peeves of the current PDAs - decent keyboard, decent display (Psion anybody?) and finally stable OS (yeah, both PalmOS and WinCE suck here) are still missing. Sharp is on good track with their C7xx line here, however the software leaves a lot to be desired and in the marketing department Sharp is shooting itself in the foot, IMHO. Fortunately, there is plenty of excelent free software for Zaurus available.

Calling PDAs fad which is dying out is at least bit premature, IMHO. If you have no use for it, do not buy one. For me it was a tremendous help, regardless of having a laptop and cell phone already. I like devices that take the "UNIX approach" - do just one thing and do it well. Laptop and cell phone do not do PDA role well, so why to push them there.

Regards, Jan

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[cgenman]

PDAs were a gimmick, nothing more...This happens to fads.

Would you say that electronic calculators were a fad? Or typewriters? PDA's served a specific and indispensable role in people's lives. They were a low-powered computing and data storage platform, able to encrypt sensitive data and store thousands of pages of notes, and proved so useful that they were finally integrated into other indispensable pieces of hardware. How is that a gimmick?

Now that mobile phone operators are integrating PDA functionality into their phones (in most cases on originally PDA operating systems like Symbian), the platform can be considered redundant. But realize, the platform is not going away, it is merely being integrated into another device (and vice versa). The fact that they are being integrated into mobile phones and released in higher numbers than before show that they are not a gimmock.

Who the hell games on a PDA? Who complains about gaming on a PDA? That's like complaining that your mobile phone doesn't scrub dishes, or that your car stereo isn't bright enough to read by.

I can only guess that the vitrol in your post comes from buyer's remorse... that you expected your three PDA's to be far more than they were, overpurchased, and were sadly disappointed. Between my girlfriend and I, we've owned several of the original Palm Pilot and Palm Pilot pros, a pair of Clie 320's, and a newer Clie NX80V with camera and MP3. We knew the limitations of each one, and have come to rely upon them tremendously. We store lots of e-texts and avant-go websites for our morning commute. We store everyone's number, address, and birthday on them, and try to keep ahead of our lives with the scheduler and to-do list. We use YAPS to encrypt passwords and other sensitive data. Essentially, we offload those parts of our brain which we don't have the capacity to store, and store external data that we don't have the time to upload. At that, the PDA's excell. The addition of a camera means that we can store people's faces along with their address, making it that much easier to remember who people are.

I'm lost without my PDA. Now I'm looking into upgrading to one of the aforementioned mobile phones with PDA functionality. Does that mean that I've abandoned the platform? Does that mean the platform was a fad?

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

But hospitals have invested heavily in the WIFI infrastructure to accomidate a PDA in the hostpital almost like a cellphone in the outside world.

Isn't it strange that wifi at 2.4 GHz doesn't seem to interfere with medical equipment, yet they claim that my cell phone, operating at 1.9 GHz, does interfere with medical equipment.

And frankly, building a medical infrastucture on an unlicensed band (anyone in the building next door can swamp your signal) with no QoS is a bad idea.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[iabervon]

I think the real reason that the PDA market is collapsing is really that it has reached the point where everyone who has a use for one already has one that fits their needs perfectly. The only reasons to get a new PDA are that your old one died, you've got a completely new job, or there's a new gimmick you like.

The thing about the PDA market is that it was large, but didn't grow, and so it got saturated easily.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[JaredOfEuropa]

PDAs were a gimmick, nothing more. No matter how shiny they got, and no matter how many I owned (which amounted to 3 at one point, a palm V, a palm Vx, and one of those ridiculous Sony Clie jobbers) they still couldn't replace the ease of use a cell phone provided me.

Ever wondered how today's cell phones got to be so useful? If you have ever used the 1st generation phones w/ PDA functionality built in, you will know what I mean. They were hopeless... now there was a gimmick. At the time I thought that such phones would never get anywhere, if the manufacturers would continue to try and build a phone with PDA functionality, rather than a PDA with phone functionality. The latter hasn't exactly happened, but phone companies have learned a lot from PDAs, and phones have become PDAs rather than replaced them.

As for games... no one is arguing that a PDA (or aphone for that matter) is a proper gaming platform. People mostly play games on their PDA to kill time.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Fezmid]

I use my PDA all the time. I use CryptoPad to keep track of all of the root passwords on my company's UNIX boxes (as well as my passwords for both work and home). I don't want bluetooth, cell phone, etc, as that'd make it easier for Bad Guys (tm) to get the file without me knowing.

I use it to take notes at work all the time. I could use paper, but I can't search on paper and paper gets lost. A laptop is way too large to bring from meeting to meeting.

I use it on planes to read the paper or play some games. When you're sitting in the middle seat, there's not really enough room to use a laptop without crowding people on both sides of you. The Palm works great for that.

I use it to play games before a play or movie. Getting in a few games of backgammon or Mille Borne is quick and easy on the Palm. Good luck booting up a PC to play a couple quick games.

And doctor's running various programs on the Palm doesn't make it a "medical specific device." It's just another use of a PDA.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Moofie]

Spoken like a true non-PDA user.

Some people find PDAs useful. These people are not stupid. You are entitled to your opinion, but others do not share it.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Chess_the_cat]

So where do you draw the line then? I suppose my 200lb desktop is a PDA as well. It's personal, digital, and it assists me in my work. Look, conventionally, a PDA stores contact info and runs a calendar. The grandparent is not using it that way. The hardware is the same perhaps but it's function has changed. He could just as easily be using a tablet PC for example. Would you call that a PDA as well? Technically you could but it wouldn't follow convention.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. The same thing has happened to the desktop market. The growth area for now is in laptops.

PDAs will not die (as some posters here are suggesting) but there will be some shaking out. This has of course been going on for a while now.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I find my Palm easier to use than my cell phone, or any cell I've ever used.

I think the functionality is merging but other than the PalmPhones, they can't display much info at the same time. The color phone I bought last year only has a 100x100 screen, when a Palm now often has four times the addressable screen pixels, if not much more. I'd get a Palm Phone but they are often too small on the screen, IMO and cost hundreds more than separate Palm and phones with similar capacity and functionality.

The only data I store in my phone is phone numbers for quick dialing though its phone book, but using it to try to display a map is a total joke, and data entry is even harder. A lot of phones don't even include synch software or synch cable. Last I checked, it was $30 for the software, and $30 for the cable.

I use my Palm to keep my shopping list, materials lists, wish lists, addresses and phone numbers - should I lose my phone. I enter notes in it too when I'm away from a computer. One palm is still easier to tote than even an OQO, never mind a regular laptop. Palms also start up instantly. Even on standby, laptops take five to ten seconds to start. Compared to data entry to a phone, I have much more patience using the stylus than I do pressing a button several times to get the letter I want.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

As an English major, I've got to agree that PDAs are thriving in certain niches. There's nothing handier than a bunch of e-texts to read while on the go, while a collapsible keyboard means that writing papers and stories becomes much more convenient.

I used to keep a laptop around for just that reason - typing on the go. But my since I got my Palm Pilot, I never touch the damn thing anymore, since it's about thirty times heavier and has a tenth of the battery life.

The only thing that would make my life easier is if vi were ported to palm...

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Rob Simpson]

Sure, he could "just as easily" lug around a tablet PC. Even a relatively small and light one would be useless compared to a good PDA.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Rob Simpson]

So true. I've mentioned this before, but the fact that mine can store roughly my weight in medical references and still have room on the memory card for a few good novels isn't a "gimmick". It's amazing and useful.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[fermion]

comparing a GPC to a PDS is like comparing a GPC to game console. They are targeted to different purposes. Now, some people do not want to spend money on specilized technology. They would rather have one machine that does nothing well.

But you do hit a problem in marketing. The companies want to sell these machines for as GPC, and this has been true even before the Palm existed. I remember the Atari being sold not as a gam console, but a GPC. Early PDAs, such as the Newton, was sold as a device capable of editing spreadsheets and text documents. These PDAs including software to synch the data. This lead to unreasonable expectations.

As far as phones go, my old startac does everything a phone needs to do. I might have to upgrade, but i don't see the new features make it easier to place a call, or outside of bluetooth, easier to hold a conversation.

And I bought my phone and Palm V at about the same time. For tracking bussiness contacts, recording time expended and the like, the Palm was a perfect size. Any modern cell phone of reasonable size is not so good.

The real issue to me is price. I cannot get a small simple phone for $100. I cannot get a small simple PDA for $100. I can get a complex phone or PDA that does nothing well for $200-$300. Game consoles are still selling because they understand the concept of delivering the core product at a reasonable pricepoint.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[jelle]

"building a medical infrastucture on an unlicensed band (anyone in the building next door can swamp your signal) with no QoS is a bad idea."

The frequencies used by 802.11a/b/g are licence excempt, but that definitely is not the same as unrestricted. Every device operating in that frequency band is restricted in the amount of power it may transmit with. You can calculate the signal streng of any wifi signal that a neighbour may legally point at you and place your APs accordingly. If your neighbours transmit with too much power, you have as much legal recourse to make it stop as you have in any frequency band (plus I'm sure that a hospital will get good cooperation finding and stopping the culprit quickly).

Add to that the level of control that a hospital has of which devices can be installed/used inside of a hospital, and the location and size of the hospital buildings as I know them, it should be no problem at all to build an indoor wifi network in a hospital without interference problems.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[arodland]

But as-is, you don't need to have a _strong_ signal to swamp a wifi network, you just need a little bit -- enough to convince all of the other nodes on the network that they should wait for you to finish "sending" to avoid interfering.

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[mholt108]

That wouldnt work as doctors use it for MUCH more than a database entry tool. THere is far too much information for any human to carry around in Medicine (Medline over 3 million entries). THe PDA gives the ability to search databases such as Cocharane or Medline or refer to a text such as harrisons while doing his or her rounds. Very necesarry - you dont even get out of med school these days without using heavily. And it is all on PALM OS

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[AmericanInKiev]

My point is that medicine should increase its use of simple walk around data input tools.

Doctor's need to read info - fine - but Nurses generally need to collect the data Doctors use. a $120 scanner can collect a ton of accurate timestamped unforgeable data quite quickly.

AIK

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that sums it up really...PDAs are only useful to a niche market.

ok so it's not a "gimmick", but it will never be as widely used as a PC or a phone.

In its current state, it is only useful for accessing a relatively large amount of information: drug information, appointments, emails. Ok so you're a doctor, or you're a businessman with a billion and one appointments. You're always on the go, you need to have this information at your fingertips.

But what about the rest of us?

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[mholt108]

Whatever ...

it is hardly relavent to a conversation on the use of PDA's for medical purposes

Re:That's a shame...no, really it is.

[iabervon]

I think there's still a reasonable upgrade rate in the desktop market; if nothing else, the corporate world will tend to buy new desktops when people are hired, and people get used to new computers at work and then want to get the speed increase at home. With PDAs, people will often want their PDA to continue to function exactly the same forever, if possible.

In my opinion...

[TwistedSpring]

We're redefining what the PDA is. Mobile phones are swiftly becoming the new PDA. They store contacts, run software, play MP3s, games, etc as well as having the handy ability to make phone calls. I think the PDA is not dead, it's just merging with mobile phones, which is a lot more useful device than the plain old PDA.

Re:In my opinion...

[AaronGTurner]

With VoIP becoming more dominant, then a PDA and pervasive wireless networking and a bluetooth headset would be close to becoming indistinguishable from the current crop of phones. The PDA isn't so much dying as the phone and the PDA converging. In the UK I think that people use their mobile phones more for texting (instant messaging) from pubs than voice. A PDA with SMS, a small keyboard attached, and a pub with low cost WiFi and you'd be hard pressed to see the difference in functionality between a phone with a large screen and a PDA with a small screen. On my phone (broken, never used it much anyway) I could browse and check web mail, pop mailboxes, wap sites. Sort of like a slow wireless PDA connection, with a tiny interface. The difference at the moment is that the standard phone network is more pervasive than 3G, Wifi, etc., and so the phone wins on connectivity, but is gaining PDA functionality. If the PDA survives I think it will be as more of a hub than an item in its own right. You can connect keyboards now. In theory to mine I can connect a display or TV, but the refresh rate leaves something to be desired. But if the refresh rate was better than keyboard, hotel TV, PDA, wireless connection and appplication serving/Grid and I have a handy desktop substitute anywhere I go that can also access all the computing power I need. Add in bluetooth and VoIP and 3G and it's a phone too.

IMO

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

I have an iPaq and a Palm (built into my phone). The biggest problem with most PDAs are their battery issues. The last time the battery went out on my iPaq and I lost everything that was it. It's too frustrating to have to completely re-install all the software when something like this happens. I know there are work-arounds, but most of the PDAs out there by default have this issue.

I generally used my PDA for an address book. It's useful there but otherwise it's a gimmick.

Re:IMO

[agent dero]

Believe it or not, Pocket PC's have a backup program :-)

iPaq batteries also last about 72 hours with somewhat frequent use, and if you use it sparingly, an entire week.

From my experience (Palm Zire, Tungsten, and iPaq) battery life is definitely NOT a problem with PDA's, being useful is.

Why bother?

[ValourX]

Does anyone here actually use a PDA for anything remotely interesting or useful (beyond impressing your techie friends with your new toy)?

I'd have bought one long ago if I thought I could actually use it for something meaningful.

My father has a Palm PDA of some kind... battery died about a year and a half ago and he hasn't bothered to replace it.

-Jem

Re:Why bother?

[SuperMo0]

Well, if you're a consultant and need to remember 400+ clients, phone numbers, and emails, it can be rather helpful.

Re:Why bother?

[Conor Turton]

Does anyone here actually use a PDA for anything remotely interesting or useful (beyond impressing your techie friends with your new toy)?

Yep...Satnav. I work as a lorry driver in the UK (trucker) for an employment agency. I've got an Ipaq 2210 and run TomTom Navigator 3 on it. AS I'm not in the same vehicle for more than a couple of days at a time it allows me to take it from vehicle to vehicle and as it does street level, it has replaced the massive box of town/city maps I had. Its bluetooth too so it uses GPRS through my mobile phone to get traffic updates as I go.

Re:Why bother?

[ValourX]

Wouldn't that information be better contained in a good PIM on a laptop system?

I wouldn't trust any important data to a PDA. Too fragile... and if the mainboard dies or the screen breaks, I can't easily remove the hard drive and recover the data with another system.

-Jem

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used an old Handspring for one thing - weekly inventory at my fast food restaurant. Everything sorted by location makes for one quick walk around. Shoot it into the mac when I get home. Well, I used to sync with the mac. Haven't got syncing working with 10.3.whatever so it's now about as useful as a sheet of paper. Hmmm.

Re:Why bother?

[gilgongo]

> Does anyone here actually use a PDA for anything remotely interesting or useful

Not that interesting, but for me it's passwords. I have a cheapo Palm Zire 21 and use GraphViz's password manager to store all my account login details for various things. I find it easy to manage, and feel that I'm not worth an attempt to crack 128-bit blowfish so if I lose it or it gets stolen I'm fine as long as my backups work that is...

If anyone knows of a mobile phone that'll do this I might buy it though.

Re:Why bother?

[gilgongo]

Sorry, that should be "DataViz" not "GraphViz" (called Passwords Plus) See? It's so transparent I can't even remember the name of the thing.

Re:Why bother?

[ghost cat]

I use my Palm Pilot almost every day for reading books. The small size and the backlit display make it the ideal media for reading books in bed (for personal reasons, I can't use a lamp at the evening), and the Internet is a practically unlimited source of free or cheap downloadable books. Tried also to play games (interactive fiction) and to write, but these 2 functions are considerably more inconvenient (at least, using Palm) than simply reading.

Re:Why bother?

[thepoch]

I just bought a Zire 72 and actually use it for some useful tasks.

#1 - SMS. I hate having to enter data using keys. I'd rather write. Plus I can copy/paste data from my memos to my messages. Easier than having to enter everything by keypad.
#2 - I use the camera to capture and show clients our products. I also use the camera to capture potential offices, to show to my partners. It's a 1.2 megapixel camera so it's better than my SE T610's camera.
#3 - I use Plucker and downloaded the Webster dictionary at www.pluckerbooks.com. Dictionaries are always handy. I also download the plucker format of howtos from www.tldp.org. Linux references are always useful.
#4 - While my mobile is useful for listing contacts... it doesn't list all contact info (address, bdays, IM nickname, etc). I'm sure mobiles will reach that level of contact information (or have they already). But until then, my PDA is more useful for automatic reminders of my clients' birthdays.
#5 - I have a program called Holidays that I've setup with holiday schedules. So I have holidays listed automatically in my Calendar, no manual entry.
#6 - Password database. I'm sure this is considered bad practice... but I do store my passwords and other important info in a program called Keyring (it's in sourceforge, if you're interested). It's encrypted and open source, so it's secure enough for me.
#7 - My laptop boots in about 1min. My PDA turns on in about... now. So if I need to call someone and don't have them on my mobile, it's faster to look it up in my PDA than it is on my laptop. Besides I only list mobile numbers on my T610. It costs more to dial landline numbers for me.
#8 - I have Documents-To-Go (free with my Zire 72). If I'm out and need to type some document or spreadsheet, I can do it immediately. Save it on my SD Card as a .doc or .xls. Go home and transfer to my laptop. Open it with OpenOffice.org and continue. It's for those times I have to work without a laptop. Of course I still use a pen and paper. But for those spreadsheet formulas you just have to see the results immediately, rather than writing down =IF(blahblah;blahblah;IF(blahblah;blahblah)).

I'm sure I'll find some other useful stuff for my "toy". Oh, plus... I don't have to subscribe to some mobile phone company to actually use my PDA. I hear that the SE P800 doesn't work withouy a SIM card. That's just lame.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never heard of hotsyncing, have you? All you data is backed up onto your desktop PC every time you sync. If your battery dies or you break the PDA and get a replacement, all you have to do is put it in the cradle, hit a button, and all your files, apps, and settings get copied over to the PDA.

Oh, BTW, PDAs don't have hard drives. But if you knew the first thing about what you're criticizing, I wouldn't need to point that out...

Re:Why bother?

[xanderwilson]

I edit my fiction using DocumentsToGo.

I keep my comics collection in an excel spreadsheet so when I'm going through 25 cent bins I know exactly what my wantlist is and I don't accidentally buy any duplicates.

I read Project Gutenberg texts and books purchased from Peanut Press (or whatever they're called and whoever they're owned by these days) when I'm shopping with my wife.

I listen to lectures and audiobooks in MP3 format.

I do play games, though not very often.

I write memos and story ideas down on the go. There's also a voice memo recorder which I use when driving.

I keep organized with my address book and calendar. I've never been able to be organized in either area until I bought a Palm.

I keep some photographs with me.

I keep a dictionary on my Palm, which is invaluable for when I have time to write.

I'm just as likely to take my Palm with me when I go out as I am my phone. If/when my Palm breaks, I'll replace it.

Re:Why bother?

[iCEBaLM]

That's why you keep the data on the computer and sync it to the PDA, why trod around a computer all the time? Can't fit a laptop in your pocket.

My Palm Tungsten T3 has been invaluable to me. Quick note taking, music playing, the odd game here or there, ebooks, internet through bluetooth, etc. All on one device I can fit in my pocket and has 0 startup time.

Why people think laptops are a replacement for this is way beyond me. You want to take a quick note, ok, so you're going to grab your huge laptop, wait for it to boot up, open an application and type it?

Re:Why bother?

[mrhartwig]

Wouldn't that information be better contained in a good PIM on a laptop system?
Yes, if you can A) carry the laptop in your shirt pocket; and B) get the information within 5 seconds (and that *includes* getting the device out of your pocket.

I wouldn't trust any important data to a PDA. Too fragile...
That's what syncing to your computer is for. Also, backing up to the removable memory in your PDA. I have a complete backup on my laptop (files copied to another workstation) and I have another on a memory stick.
...I can't easily remove the hard drive and recover the data with another system.
What's your point? If the hard drive in your computer dies, "easy" recovery isn't possible there, either. In the case either of a PDA or a computer, you have to think about what might go wrong and take appropriate measures; backups should be part of your strategy if the information is important.

As for "fragile", don't get me started. Thanks to certain brain-dead policies at work, I've gone through 7 different laptops in the last year. In seven years, I've used three PDAs, and only one actually died.

Re:Why bother?

[ValourX]

I don't know how anyone can write anything meaningful with a PDA -- too awkward and slow. I've found a nice paper notebook to be far more effective for quick notes and story/character ideas. When PDAs can do better handwriting translation without having to change the way you form letters, then it'll be useful to me.

-Jem

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use my Zire 71 all the time. Mostly for scheduling, alarms to remind me to get up or go to class/work/whatever, jotting down stuff when I'm away from my desk, grocery lists, calculating stuff (I suck at math, and I'm not carrying around a separate calculator for the rare times I need it), reading eBooks and listening to music on the bus. Nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a bunch of paper, pencils, and a CD player, but I find it's a hell of a lot simpler to have it all in one small package. And I don't have to worry about reading sloppy handwriting or getting pages torn out or lost.

I know a newer cell phone could do most of that about as well (albeit with a smaller screen and IMHO inferior input options), but I have absolutely no need for a cell phone. If I got one, I'd never use the phone part and just end up paying $30+ a month for a crappier PDA. Although I could impress my techie friends with my new toy.

Re:Why bother?

[AaronGTurner]

1. Meeting minutes direct to the web
2. Presentations
3. Accessing Grid Computing portals to send jobs to a multi-million pound facility. In theory I might be able to do this from my phone too, but it would be considerably harder to work the gui! I did have an ssh client for my phone (3 year old Sagem) but near impossible to enter in passwords.
4. Listening to BBC radio online
5. VNC to control my desktop from the living room or garden when it is doing lengthy audio processing, or downloading patches, etc.

Re: Why bother?

[akintayo]

I don't use it but CyberTracker is one of the coolest uses I have heard about in a while. This software is used by African national parks to track the population and conditions within the parks.

Re:Why bother?

[achaudhary]

Actually, it's more like open the iBook, Stickies.app is already running, notebook wakes in 2-3 seconds, type, close lid, you're done.
Now, that said, even an iBook (less than 5 lbs, very small footprint) is not 'pocketable'. But other mini-notebooks are, and have power management features as good as or better than PDAs.

Re:Why bother?

[Blic]

If all you ever used a PDA for is a glorified address book, yeah, it's pretty much dead. Most "smart" phones can do all that, along with devices like the BlackBerry and Palm's own Treo.

The article has a point in that it survives as a niche device for enterprise applications. At my company most everyone has gone over to using BlackBerries, but the Palm still survives in Field Sales where they use it for a custom SFA application.

Smart phones just don't have the horsepower or screen real estate to run it, but a Palm Tungsten does - at least for the time being.

The holy grail is there for someone to grab - a device that integrates standard PDA capabilities, a phone, email, MP3 listening and a powerful application platform with a usable UI. Everything seems to be moving in that direction, but no one is there yet...

Re:Why bother?

[BenjyD]

I use a wireless keyboard and my Tungsten E to write with. It works pretty well, and is lighter to carry around and quicker to setup than a laptop.
I agree, though, that I wouldn't want to write anything beyond a few lines with grafitti.

Re:Why bother?

[Linker3000]

I am responsible for IT matters in a company with 28 remote sites. Although I'm never 'on call' after working hours, I need to be 'available' for consulting on technical issues nearly 24/7 but I also have a life (honest!). If I'm 'out and about' I can still access any of our network resources via my GPRS mobile phone and a bluetooth link to an iPAQ PDA. The PDA acts as a:

1) SSH terminal (pockeTTY) for our Linux servers
2) Remote Desktop to our Windows servers
3) Remote support tool for desktop PCs using a Pocket PC version of VNC.

Plus of course the usual Web browsing and email checking.

The PDA means I can go out without lugging a laptop everythwere or having to go home or to the nearest office if there's a minor crisis. With the PDA I can 'dial in' from almost anywhere - a few months ago I fixed a print spool problem on a Windows 2000 server while the passenger in a car travelling along the M4 motorway in the UK, and more recently I took a 10 minute 'timeout' from a meal in a Chinese restaurant to reprogram a router. The alternative would be for me to stay in all the time.

I have tried a smartphone for all of this but the screens are just not big enough.

Re:Why bother?

[lidocaineus]

I don't know how people can use a keyboard - too awkward and slow.

It's called adapting, and learning something new. If you don't have the time or effort into learning an input system to a point where you're efficient with it, of course it will be awkward and slow. My grandfather thinks keyboards are terrible input devices, but he hunts and pecks constantly.

Re:Why bother?

[Moofie]

So, when somebody gives you a comprehensive list of useful functions his PDA accomplishes, you pick one of them and say "I don't like that, so PDAs are useless. Boy, I am just as smart as I thought I was!"

Don't want a PDA? Please don't buy one. Feel free to not buy one ever, under any circumstances. Really! I don't want you to. Proceed from your assumption that they are useless and a waste of money.

Nobody else cares.

Re:Why bother?

[Moofie]

Yeah, nobody bought that Treo 600. What a POS.

Uh, right. I wish I could fail like that.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, pen and paper still works pretty good for quick notetaking. Not everything needs to be in digital format. Pens also don't need batteries.
I guess I'm old fashioned, but it all was just a fad indeed.

Re:Why bother?

[Methuseus]

I'd like to see a laptop run better than 24 hours on a single charged battery.... Or even 6 or 8 hours for that matter.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

An iBook can run for 6 hours FYI. Probably longer if actually sleeping.

Re:Why bother?

[ValourX]

Amazing how many imaginary inferences you've made from my post, and how angry you are as a result of your own misconceptions.

Take a vacation or something. Or see a therapist.

-Jem

Re:Why bother?

[Moofie]

It's simple. "then it'll be useful to me." Nobody cares if it's useful to you. If you don't think it's useful to you, don't buy one.

Try this on: There exist people on Earth who buy PDAs because they're useful, not just because they're gadget-obsessed freaks.

Again: I encourage you to not buy a PDA. Please don't. I'm sure it won't fit your needs, and I'm certain you'll only validate your preconceptions.

Re:Why bother?

[iCEBaLM]

Pens however do run out of ink, get lost, blow up and cause stains or just quit working. Also, you keep a pen and paper pad around with you at all times? Does your paper pad also sync to your computer? Does it play music? Does your blank paper pad also have the capability to take down dictation notes or display books to read? Can you view web pages on your paper pad? Right...

Re:Why bother?

[Blic]

Point taken. =)

The Treo is about as close as anyone has come, but compared to the Tungsten T3 it has a smaller, dimmer, lower resolution screen and half the horsepower.

I've used one, and to me it feels like it's almost but not quite there yet. I look forward to their next few models though...

Re:Why bother?

[Moofie]

It's not for me, either, for exactly the reasons you state. And I seem to be the only person on the planet that hates hates hates thumboards. I also need a 320x320 screen in my next handheld, and Bluetooth is a big plus for me.

However, it does all the things in your list, and it's extremely well designed. I've played with my friend's Treo 600 a lot, and they put some serious thought into making that thing work really well.

Hopefully the new Samsung phone will be good enough. Until then, I covet a BT enabled phone and a Tungsten T3.

hard drives and battery...

[da5idnetlimit.com]

all I lack in ly ancient Palm Vx is a hard drive and somewhat longer battery life... then it could do 99% of what a laptop does...

=> with the new Hydrogen cells, maybe the pda will benefit from the crossing of PDA+Phone+Multimedia player, and I can have a 400Mhz Xscale with 40Gigs hdd +triband/wifi-bluetooth and a week power with a simple lighter fluid refill...

More than the end of pdas, we should see the end of laptops!

Re:hard drives and battery...

[jelle]

"and a week power with a simple lighter fluid refill..."

You wish. Those refills will be like the ink and toners of today's printers: incompatible, hard-to-find, and overpriced.

Phones are subsidised

[ehack]

Mobile phones are heavily subsidised by the carriers, a long shelf life, and and have high sales floors, again thanks to the carriers. PDAs have atrociously high retail profit margins built into their prices, like MP3 players (look at the $400 ipod!). The result is that the overfeatured PDA is an unsellable product at its current price-performance point.

If Sony and friends swallowed their pride and sold them cheap, under $50, they might restart the market. The new digital paper displays may give Sony a chance to create such a cheap category.

Re:Phones are subsidised

[mr.mighty]

The solution there would be to find some service that they could charge you $20 - $30 per month for, and get you into a contract for two years. Then they could give the things out for free. It would also have to be something that you couldn't do on a cellphone.

I don't think it's likely, though.

Re:Phones are subsidised

[perlchild]

You should rather say: they have to find something people are looking for, that only makes sense paying for as a service, that isn't offered by a cellphone. Inventing a new "thing" that gets charged monthly will only work if that "thing" doesn't make sense with an up-front fee.

While for manufacturers, pay-per-month is a great idea, for consumers, it's the worse idea, especially in a device you intend to keep(because it has your data in it). With the cellphone, we accept it partly because the alternatives to monthly billing can suck more, and partly because it makes sense to pay for access to the network(which doesn't belong to us, and whose value is created by other people: not the telco).

Zaurus?

[hoover]

The only "additional" feature I require on my PDA in addition to all the run of the mill stuff is that it runs Nethack. The Zaurus does this nicely, so I won't have to buy a new PDA while this one lasts and doesn't break ;-)

Re:Zaurus?

[Seraphim_72]

yeah - but what do you use for a case - my poor Z is all beat up cuz none of the normal cases fit

Saturated Market?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people I know already have a PDA and have no plans to buy a new one since their current one does what they want. Its not that people no longer use PDAs, its that people aren't compelled to upgrade to a newer model since it offers nothing new for them.

Re:Saturated Market?

[eingram]

Well, I don't even use my PDA for practical purposes anymore. My PDA sits on my end table and listens for voice commands that control my TV, DVD, etc. It's just an expensive $300 voice activated remote control now (and a bad one at that).

Well...

[SuperMo0]

If I've already bought a PDA, why would I need to go out and buy a new one repeatedly? My dad has a 4-year-old Palm that still works great, he hasn't needed a new one and doesn't want one. The same way console sales eventually fall off, there will eventually be so many people in the market that have the PDAs that finding a "new customer" is harder and harder. While some can rely on return sales, PDAs tend to be made a bit more sturdier than that and can be expected to last the user a long time.

I wouldn't worry about this decline, you'll just have to wait for a fresh new batch of kiddies to graduate college.

im still waitin

[Anonymous Coward]

im still waiting for the mobile phone with the micro harddrive in it, i mean you may as well go all out and have a fully fledged pcmobile

Limited market ...

[gstoddart]

I suspect there is a much more limited market than the initially considered.

I for one have never wanted one, so I bet I'm not alone. Other than the people who already have PDA's and now want to upgrade, is it a segment that is likely to grow that much? (OK, a small amount).

I really can't think of a 15-year old wanting one. Old people don't strike me as the type. A little too gadgety for the blue-collar crowd.

I just don't think it's a relevant product for a lot of people. Then again, every time I've tried to use any scheduling thing (be it paper or software) I inevitably just find it too damned cumbersome to continue using.

Re:Limited market ...

[Fnkmaster]

You mean people who don't work in jobs that require them to manage lots of contact information, complex schedules, or similar problems don't need PDAs? That's true. But saying that is a limited market is like saying the market for Microsoft Outlook is limited - no, not every home user needs Outlook, but there are millions of businesses and offices around the world that actually need and use the features of Outlook that a regular email client program doesn't have (not saying that Outlook is a good program - it's decidedly mediocre in some ways and downright terrible in others, but lots of people need the contact management, groupware and scheduling features for their offices).

Not every product needs to have a market of 100% of the population to be successful. And obviously the cross-section of the population that you have experience with sounds like it is teenagers, old-folks (by which I can only guess you mean your parents' age or older), and blue-collar people. Give the companies that make these devices a little credit - I don't think those people were ever in their target market for PDAs to begin with. If anything, the problem may be that the PDA market became too fragmented and crowded to be justified by the market size. A market big enough for 5-10 successful products is too small for 50-100 unsuccessful ones.

Re:Limited market ...

[hemp]

"too gadgety for the blue-collar crowd" -- what the hell is this supposed to mean???

Are you trying to tell me an airplane machanic doesn't have the ability to use these new fangled gizmos or a UPS driver could never figure out what these PDA's are used for or that an IBM service technician would be flumoxed by the little bitty screen?

Please, enlighten us some more with your marketing wisdom. Tell us, will horse-less carriage ever become popular amongst the blue collar crowd?

Re:Limited market ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"or a UPS driver could never figure out what these PDA's are used for"

That is funny. Very funny. Do you ever receive UPS packages? What do you think that thing is that you put your signature on? Right, a PDA, just in a more rugged package and some special UPS software.

Not gone, just changing...

[Fnkmaster]

My old Clie has given up the ghost in favor of a shiny, new Treo 600. My good friend now uses a Samsung i500. Really, my biggest problem with the standalone PDA was that it made yet another gadget you have to plug in and charge every night, and if you lead a relatively mobile lifestyle, you need to bring chargers, cradles or sync cables with you everywhere you go. Now I have one device I need to remember the cables for when I travel and it pretty cleanly integrates the communications capabilities of a phone, portable email device, organizer, contact manager, handheld gaming system (at least as much as I need it to), and PDA.

Anyway, the Treo 600 has it's flaws (most notably the mediocre screen resolution). But before I got this device, every PDA I ever had was something I used for a few months then it fell into general disuse because of the effort to charge it, sync it and use it. This is the first PDA device that I actually use regularly and believe I will continue to use regularly, and that convenience is worth a whole lot. So the PDA is dead... long live the PDA-phone.

Re:Not gone, just changing...

[CrazyTalk]

Shoulda got a Palm III series - I still use mine every day, and it uses ordinary AAA batteries that last about a month, so I never have to worry about charging every night or bringing cables with me when I travel. In the time I've had the Palm, I've probably gone through at least 5 mobile phones, so I don't really like the idea of one "Combination" device.

Re:Not gone, just changing...

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI - there are a couple of gadgets which would make your life easier. I use a retractable usb sync cable, which charges the treo from my laptop. And for truly mobile travel (e.g. backpacking), I've got a little battery pack which charges the treo from AA batteries. You might want to look into that.

Older PDAs still working.

[thisissilly]

I have my Palm IIIx, and don't feel a strong need to upgrade right now.

When I can upgrade to a new device that has anything near the battery life, while also having WiFi, MP3 audio, at least 1.3 megapixel camera, >1 GB of storage, for a price under $300, I'll be looking. But we are not quite there yet, so for the moment, I'll stick with my Palm IIIx. And if I break it, my replacement cost is a whopping $20 off ebay.

Re:Older PDAs still working.

[Anonymous Coward]

I only replaced my Pilot 5000 with a newer Palm model last year because the 5000's power circuitry died. If it hadn't died I probably would still be using it. That said, if Apple adds a little more functionality into the iPod (i.e. some way to write or speak stuff directly to it) I'll be dumping my Palm.

In part I think so...

[Thumper_SVX]

... but not because PDA's are DEAD. As others have mentioned, it's more that the form of PDA's has changed. Smart phones and so forth... the actual PDA will become integrated, not die. Now, I'm probably in the minority here, but personally I'm one of those people who PREFER carrying a seperate PDA and cellphone. Quite simply it's because while on the phone I often have to write notes, check my calendar and so forth. To-date I've not seen a smart phone that does this quite as well as my old PDA and basic cellphone. Also, another thing to note is that PDA sales are declining because the market is saturated. The people who use PDA's like me have already bought one, and to be honest there are few if any reasons to upgrade a PDA quite as often as a laptop or cellphone. The drive just isn't there... there are no "killer apps". I don't play games on my PDA... I don't keep MP3's on it... it's for my important data and notes. Now, a friend of mine recently bought one of the new state of the art Ipaq's... all the bells and whistles... and when I played with it I noticed a slight increase in response but it provided me nothing over the Ipaq 3855 I've owned for the better part of three years now and still rely on every day. Sure, eventually the battery will die and I'll invariably upgrade... but other than this fact there are no other compelling reasons to upgrade like with a Windows PC (full Windows, not PocketPC). And as for the cost of laptops compared to PDA's... well I find the form factor of my Ipaq much easier to lug around between meetings than my Dell Latitude... and while I like working on my Dell it's a PITA in a meeting that may move around the building at short notice (due to presenting information to vendors and so forth). My PDA is damned handy... hell I even use it when driving if I need to make notes to myself I just whip it out of my belt holster and press the record button. When I get home, I upload and transcribe those notes as necessary. Food for thought?

Convergence

[Ianoo]

As someone who routinely carries a PDA, mobile phone, digital camera and USB keychain drive, I love the idea of convergence, but I don't think technology has reached the point where it's matured enough to make combination devices really as useful and as feasible as separate devices are currently. The reason? Primary battery power, IMO.

My cellphone is a fairly basic Motorola, its batteries can last for days without recharging, and I can leave it switched on at all times, day and night, just popping it into the charger as required. Sure, it doesn't have a colour screen or multimedia messaging or PDA functions, but the fact that it's always ready to use is crucial to the way I use a phone.

My PDA, on the other hand, has a big 320x320 in full colour, oodles of flash memory, sound and video capabilities, and so on. However, the way I use a PDA is totally different. If I left the PDA on for more than around 4-6 hours, the battery would be gone. Fortunately, I use the thing intermittently, only turning it on when I want to check my tasks and appointments or record a memo.

If you can make me a Smartphone that has audio and video capabilities with a large screen that can be left on all day like my current cellphone can, I'd buy it without much hesitation. But that's not the case at the moment.

Today's smartphones are cellphones with poor battery life and/or PDAs with small screens and limited abilities. They're not perfect for either task. Until they are, I'll keep carrying my separate devices, and until we see a PDA with a 4 megapixel camera with an optical zoom lens, a flash and full manual exposure control, I will keep my digicam, too.

Perhaps fuel cells are the answer, but until they're mainstream, why aren't we seeing more Smartphones that could be put into a "super low power" mode - where the colour screen is switched off and replaced by a simple 100x100 pixel mono display, and the 400MHz XScale is switched off and the phone functions run on a 1MHz VLSI to conserve battery life when the thing is sitting in your jacket pocket?

Re:Convergence

[kubla2000]

I used to carry all those devices too. Then I decided I needed a GPS unit for my car (I'm on the road, a lot, in Italy and if you have experience of driving in this country you would be painfully aware of how poorly sign-posted roads can be).

It was while trying to decide on a GPS solution that I came across Route 66's bluetooth GPS for symbian phones.

I'm now the happy owner of a Nokia 6600 which gives me ssh over GPRS for emergencies:

http://s2putty.sourceforge.net/

The early stages of Nethack:

http://www.nicolaas.net/erebus/item.php?key=NetH ac k6

and Frozen Bubble:

http://handhelds.freshmeat.net/projects/fb-s60/

I'm really happy with my choice. If I need to do anything serious while I'm on the road, I connect over the phone with my laptop. The GPS can be a bit slow updating but I've been quite impressed with it so far. And, not forgetting its phone functionality, it's a very good phone for talking. My batteries last about 2 days under heavy usage.

Re:Convergence

[Anonymous Coward]

which gives me ssh over GPRS for emergencies

help i've fallen and I can't get up! I'll just ssh for help... only on slashdot

Re:Convergence

[f97tosc]

I carry a Sony Ericsson P900. It has all the basic PDA functionality, a good phone, and the batteries last for a couple of days. And if fits neatly in my pocket. Perfect!

My only complaint is that the built-in camera is only about a quarter megapixel, so the pictures look crappy. Probably in a couple of years they will ship with cameras comparable to the average dedicated digital camera today.

Tor

This is great news

[cmacb]

No, PDA's are not finished, but I hope they will take their proper place as an INEXPENSIVE replacement for a day-timer style notebook and stop trying to be a replacement for a PC. I don't want to spend $200, much less $600 on something that is so easily lost, stolen or dropped. People who do are either gadget freaks, or are spending someone else's money. Of course, if you work for a company so overburdened by cash that they give you a desktop PC AND a laptop AND a $600 PDA you'd be foolish not to take it, but for the rest of us a sub $100 device is more than adequate. I'd really like to have the thing I carry around cost more like $50 or less so that I could be even more careless with it than I already am.

Sony is wise to exit a market that is oversaturated as is. Let Microsoft and Palm fight over what is left. My guess is that eventually most people will be carrying around something from Casio because the price is right and the functionality is good enough. Palm and Microsoft will lose money fighting over the "road-warriors" which will ultimately lead to Palm going under followed by Microsoft losing interest. A fitting end to the insanity.

Re:This is great news

[NineNine]

Damn, you summed it up perfectly. We need more sensible people such as yourself as tech columnists, instead of these shrill, gadget-crazy hype-mongers that we have now.

Re:This is great news

[loftwyr]

Absoutely. I have a few games on mine but they're simple things to occupy me while waiting for a meeting in someobne else lobby. I have a book on it for plane rides when I don't want to work.

My Palm is a dayrunner with automatic backup. I'd be lost without it but if it's lost, I still ahve the data.

I congratulate you on your voice of reason.

PDA = smartphone without phone capability

[News for nerds]

When Sony Ericsson has nice smartphones, and SCEI will have a good handheld gaming/entertainment machine, how can PDA's existence be justified?

Re:PDA = smartphone without phone capability

[Anonymous Coward]

How much do these smartphones cost?

How much does a basic PDA cost?

In that case, I'll stick with a basic PDA. Expensive PDAs might be in trouble, but cheap ones should survive for a long time.

Integrated device

[machoromeo]

Higher-end cell phones have some of the same capabilities of PDAs. Personally, I would like to have one device that acts as a cell phone, PDA, GPS, browser, digital camera, and Game Boy. Are there any integrated devices that have all of these capabilities?

Re:Integrated device

[Anonymous Coward]

The Motorola A925 G3 phone has what you need.

Large touchscreen (for a phone), camera, AGPS (assisted), games, PDA applications, bluetooth, etc

http://direct.motorola.com/eng/ProductHome.asp?c ou ntry=GBR&language=ENG&productid=29174

Ofcourse you need to live in a place where you can get 3G access, which is only in Europe and Japan currently (as far as I know).

I plan to get one, the only thing that worries me is the battery life, guess I can always carry a spare one though.

From what I see...

[Simon Carr]

Well since I use my PDA as part of my brain (I have as much short term memory as a goldfish) I follow the technology a little. From what I see PDA technology is just sneaking into other devices, like phones as others have said. The straight Palm style PDA may be on it's way out, but that's evolution and it's probably for the best.

I know when I'm -looking- for a PDA these days, to catch my interest it at least has to have an mp3 player, maybe a camera and wireless, so that's already reaching outside of what you'd traditionally think of as a PDA.

Ideally, the perfect device for me would be an iPod running PalmOS (or an Apple stripped-down version of OSX!) that also acts as a phone with bluetooth headset... and a good solid home remote. Big storage, lots of communications features, and the size of a deck of cards.

Beermats rock!

[O2dude]

Why spend money on a PDA when you've got beermats?

In an amazingly cheap package Beermats offer:

- open, multi-language platform
- totally flexible UI
- multi-person visible display surface
- great information exchange function
- unlimited battery life
- great array of games
- OEM-custom skinning
- extremly svelte form-factor.
- comes free with Beer!

And if all of this isn;t enough, power-users can always step up to Backs of Envelopes.

Re:Beermats rock!

[K-Man]

Much as I like this platform, I find that the display tends to get blurry after a few hours of use. Are they working on a fix for this problem?

Re:Beermats rock!

[DissidentHere]

I know you're being funny, but it is so true. When my co-workers and I are at the bar and we get an idea or have to explain something we don't whip out a Palm to draw a picture or jot down a note - we use a napkin or coaster! This is despite the facte that between us we have many gadgets to choose from.

Another example, my manager copies his Notes calendar to a paper calendar/notebook. Guess which one tends to be most accurate over time as meetings are rescheduled and such? Yup, the paper one.

There are some things that will always be on paper, especially ideas on bar napkins and the back of envelopes and ATM receipts.

PDA sales are not declining.

[argent]

The apparent decline in PDA sales is due to popular PDAs like the Treo being classified as "smart phones", and not being counted in PDA sales.

Market Saturation

[xanderwilson]

I think it's less an issue of PDAs not having uses as it is an issue of market saturation. Sony's mistake is that they literally came out with new PDAs almost every month (and if they weren't released in the US, they were released in Japan and never made it to the states). People who use PDAs just don't replace their PDAs often enough to sustain as many handhelds as there are, much less as many as Sony came out with. Sony's other mistake was to revamp its high-end line so often. $700 PDAs are especially not replaced very often. With the speed at which these things were replaced in their lineup, I can't imagine they were able to produce and sell enough to get good margins on those products. It would have been nice for them to have researched how people actually use their PDAs rather than try to cram everything they could into one of them, since a PDA too big to take with you is not one that you'll use, no matter how much "convergence" you've got in one.

I think Sony's other mistake (one that PalmOS might be repeating with its next OS) was to not support the Mac platform out of the box. Many Mac users (and I'm including myself here to some degree) are notorious for wanting the latest and greatest gadgets. My first PDA was an early Sony. When I switched to the Mac platform shortly after that I had to buy a third party conduit, which became outdated when I upgraded shortly after that to Mac OS X--and then there was NO conduit I could use, no matter how much I was willing to pay. So after three yearss my Sony PDA outlived my ability to use it with my current computer. When I was ready to replace my Sony CLIE with a new Palmtop, I didn't feel that I could rely on my Sony to be "supported" by even a third party after three years, so I went with another brand.

Alex.

Re:Market Saturation

[drinkypoo]

Incidentally, you really should have known that this would happen. Sony is notorious for abandoning support for devices long before it is reasonable. This sort of crap works in Japan because people expect to replace everything every couple of years but it doesn't fly here in the USA or probably most anywhere else. Sony is so bad about this that at various times it has been possible to purchase a sony laptop which does not have driver support for the latest version of windows, and drivers were never released for that support even though they are likely available from the OEM.

Then again, Apple has been known to abandon hardware before its time, so maybe you're just used to it. Though to their credit (reducing their substantial negative balance) at least they added support for G3 iMacs in 10.3.

Re:Market Saturation

[xanderwilson]

Didn't know that about Sony. Thanks. Terrible to hear about the laptops. I've heard of that happening with HP (an HP printer being unfixably incompatible with an HP laptop, etc.) But Sony NEVER supported Mac with its CLIE. It was the third party support that didn't offer the conduit to OS X.

And I've been a Mac user only since 2001, so I haven't seen anything I've used become obsolete just yet. But I have heard the cries of protest from those who were in the fold long before I was.

Alex.

Screen Size matters

[wombatmobile]

Because of Moore's law, the gap between PDA and phone has narrowed to the extent that there really isn't one in terms of computing power.

What then, is the difference between a phone and a PDA? Apart from the telephony aspect, the only significant difference is one that will endure - the screen size. When is that significant?

Phones have a maximum screen size of 2 inches. This isn't likely to expand because that's the limit of most peoples pockets, and phones will always have to fit in pockets. PDA's like iPAQ have a screen size of 3.5 inches. When it comes to document and map viewing, that's a lot more than a phone.

PDAs will continue to exist to the extent that map and document viewing proliferates - at least, to the extent that mobile mapping and document viewing applications proliferate that require 3.5 inch displays.

Re:Screen Size matters

[craXORjack]

PDA's need to fit in a shirt pocket too. There have been attempts to combine phone and PDA into one such as the Treo and some people like them but from what I heard a couple years ago the reception and battery life is not as good and you can't hear the other party as well as on a regular cell phone. But these seem like issues that can be overcome and in fact I see that there is a new model the Treo 600 which has a very different design from the original so it probably takes some of the complaints into account.

There is also the question of crunching more pixels into a smaller area. If display technology improves to the point where I can get megapixel resolution on a Palm Pilot then combined with advances in processor and memory, I won't need a laptop anymore. And while we are waiting on higher pixel density what would drive sales of a converged PDA/phone device? How about videophone? If the device had built-in 802.11 b, g, analog and digital cell service and could make the best, fastest, cheapest connection to another device or Polycom, Netmeeting that would be a pretty hot ticket.

Re:Screen Size matters

[wombatmobile]

Yes, it would be nice if the PDA fit in a shirt pocket too.

If we define a PDA as a handheld mobile device that has a screen too big for a conventional (2004) shirt pocket, that overcomes the semantic issue of having to define the dividing line between PDA and phone. We are left with opportunities for the garment and fashion industries to innovate.

Meanwhile, in geekland in a couple of years we'll just be talking about handheld mobile devices, a Billion of which will have 2 inch screens, and 100 Million or so of which will have 3.5 inch screens.

Oh, and three quarters of a Billion will have big desktop/laptop screens. A relatively small fraction of those will be used as mobile devices.

Re:Screen Size matters

[craXORjack]

If we define a PDA as a handheld mobile device that has a screen too big for a conventional (2004) shirt pocket, that overcomes the semantic issue of having to define the dividing line between PDA and phone.

Didn't you mean "a screen small enough for a conventional shirt pocket"? If not, then I don't understand what you are trying to say. Every PDA I've owned including several models of Palms and a Zaurus have fit in my shirt pockets. I have seen wince devices advertised which were way too large to fit but they didn't last long on the market. Once guy at work who was a true ms believer bought one and tried carrying it around from a sling on his belt. That last for maybe a few weeks.

Re:Screen Size matters

[wombatmobile]

Small enough? No, I meant that I think of PDAs as being too big to fit in shirt pockets.

Sounds like we are talking about different animals with the one term, PDA. Really I was only thinking about iPAQ as PDA. iPAQ are too big for shirt pockets, which is why no phone manufacturers make a phone as big as iPAQ, at least not for volume markets.

Don't get me wrong - I can see that PDAs exist that aren't iPAQ (and that fit in shirt pockets, if that's what you are telling me).

What is interesting about iPAQ is that Hewlett Packard owns the product. What will Hewlett Packard do with iPAQ in years to come?

Who will buy iPAQ in years to come? Not the same people as buy Sony Ericsson since they won't need an iPAQ and won't want to carry around two devices.

No.

[Raven42rac]

First of all, Sony is merely out of the market FOR NOW. They will be back next year with new offerings. Second, /. editors, these ____ is dead articles HAVE TO STOP. They are not constructive. We are not C|Net, you are not Rob Enderle. Third, I think the PDA market is poised to take off. Most people I talk to don't want their cell phone integrated with their PDA, if anything they are happy with a wireless card so they can get stuff done wherever they can get on the internet. The cell phones/PDAs are big and clunky, most people want a PDA that is small and compact. PDAs are not dying.

No surprise

[Sv-Manowar]

PDA's were always a gadget, and with the introduction of Wirless into mainstream with lots of places, it showed up that internet browsing on the pda was terrible.
also, laptop prices have dropped - contributing to this downfall

WiFi and VNC

[psichaotic]

This is about all I would need to make it worth having for me.

This way I can go where I please and still be able to do what I needed to do.

Well, maybe Im just looking for a way to justify going outside or away fromthe office on those nice days, but since they froze my salary, throw m a bone for god sake!

wtf

Re:WiFi and VNC

[Linker3000]

There's a version of VNC that runs on the SonyEricsson P900 smartphone and, of course, there's PDA versions. No wifi on the smartphone though

I guess I'm not a market barometer...

[robbarrett]

...because I couldn't live without my PDA. I'm not the gadgety type, but when they gave me a PDA at work 6 years ago, within a week I couldn't live without it. It tracks my life. People, places, events, recipes, Christmas lists, etc. etc. etc. And having this history of my life in there is surprisingly useful. For instance, last week I was applying for a visa and needed to list all of my previous visits to the country. With my PDA it was a snap. When my friend says, "Let's have sushi at that same place as last time", I don't have to look dumb and say I don't remember where it was because the name, address and directions are right there in my PDA.

So what's wrong with this picture? Should I upgrade my cell phone to do all this stuff rather than just be a phone? BTW, my wife depends on her PDA as a physician for everything from textbooks of internal medicine, to drug formularies, to calculators for blood oxygen levels. Please don't take away our PDAs!!

PDA's are toys...not tools.

[Anonymous Coward]

The two major inherent setbacks for PDA's are screen size, and metnods of data input. You simply cannot view enough data on a PDA screen, much less a cellular phone screen to be useful or productive. And for people who have eyesight problems, a PDA becomes a 300.00+ paperweight. As far as inputting data, the developed methods of inputting text into a PDA without any external devices are still awkward and problematic. Letter Recognizers don't recognize letters accurately or fast enough to be efficient or pleasant to use. Virtual Keyboards are simply too time consuming, and who wants to haul around a folding portable keyboard when the whole reason you got the PDA was to have the ultimate in portability? There are ways around these problems, but they entail extensive research into ergonomics and customer feedback, and more powerful batteries than are currently available in that size in the commercial market. IMHO, until these issues are addressed, the miniaturization technology could be better utilized in making lighter faster and cooler (temperature) laptops.

Because smartphones are a bigger market

[pesc]

I think that they have figured out that everyone is going to have a mobile phone anyway, but only very few geeks are going to buy PDAs. So they figure that the PDA market is saturated and is not going to grow much, but simple PDA functions in smartphones will grow.

In a Swedish newspaper today (SvD) there was a comment on Sony PDAs. They have a deal with Ericsson to produce mobile phones, and that deal forbids them from adding mobile phone functionality to their PDAs. So it is only logical that Sony will add their previous Clie functions into the Sony Ericsson phones instead.

Re:Because smartphones are a bigger market

[ebbe11]

So it is only logical that Sony will add their previous Clie functions into the Sony Ericsson phones instead.

That will be quite a challenge. The Sony-Ericsson smartphones (P800 and P900) run Symbian whereas the Clies are PalmOS devices. And no, the two OS'es are not close cousins at all.

Still, if they do, it could be exciting. I used EPOC (forerunner of Symbian) PDAs for about five years. It is the most stable OS I've ever used.

idiots

[parasite]

Maybe PDA sales are GOING DOWN because most of the people who want a PDA already have one... Ya frick'in RETARDS. It should be obvious... I mean, really, give me ONE convincing reason to upgrade from my Palm Vx that I got more than 5 years ago -- just ONE! I don't expect there will be one -- for at least the 5+ more years I expect to get out of it before finding something new...

Still Using a Newton MP2100

[Barzoo]

I've never had a reason to get a new PDA because my Newton MP2100 still does everything that I need it to do. Keeps my addresses, passwords and it's my alarm clock. I've even bought a house with it as I used it as a fax machine. Still no need to get a new PDA and when I use it people ask me where they can get one. They think it's brand new since many of them have never seen one before. Hands down, still the best PDA ever made.

Re:Still Using a Newton MP2100

[option8]

ah, so i'm not the only one who bought a house with a newton. my mp2000 was invaluable in the process of buying my house. i kept track of all the houses i saw, kept notes on them and sketches of the floorplans and property lines.

and that was just in the notebook app.

my agent was astonished, to say the least, that he couldn't get a new one for himself after i showed it to him, and the sketches i was making. "ebay," i told him, "is probably your best bet." he had, if i recall, a clie or ipaq or something clipped to his belt, but never used it while i was with him. he kept looking up addresses, prices, and all that in a stack of papers on his clipboard instead.

Exactly

[empaler]

... and I'm getting my new PDA-phone in a few days. Out with my old Nokia and Palm Vx. Mmmm.

Re:Exactly

[SillyNickName4me]

Who the fuck want to carry around the huge bricks called pocketpc?

You are completely failign to get the point of a PDA.

That said, I doubt PDAs are a very big market anyway, and many who are in the market got carried away by the idea of making a pocket size computer.

A PDA must be a very convinient, EXTREMELY LIGHT, easy to use agenda, address book, and optionally a way to take notes, that also keeps working even if you forget to charge it for a week or 2.

The battery live issue excludes most phones (tho.. my phoen on a larger battery will easily last that long) and most phones lack a decent sized screen.

Weight, battery live, and over complicatedness makes pocketPC an even worse alternative then the PDA features of the average phone.

Don't get me wrogn btw, if you NEED or want a pocket sized computer, then a pocketpc may be for you, but it is simply not the same as a pda, and it doesn't fucntion very well as pda.

Re:Exactly

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

Huge bricks? Here are my Pocket PC specs:

Weight: 4.37oz; 4.46" x 2.75" x .50"

Re:Exactly

[SillyNickName4me]

That is a very nice weight and size pocketpc ;P

Re:Exactly

[NanoGator]

"Who the fuck want to carry around the huge bricks called pocketpc?"

Huge brick? WTF are you talking about? HP/Compaq and Toshiba have them at Palm V sizes.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck want to carry around the huge bricks called pocketpc?

Wow! I don't know how you managed to travel back in time half a decade, but if I send you some lottery numbers from a few years back, wanna split the winnings with me? K thx luv u bye.

Re:Exactly

[fataugie]

Is that a PocketPC in your pocket?

Or are you just glad to see me?

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

if I send you some lottery numbers from a few years back, wanna split the winnings with me?

Sadly, he invested the proceeds in .com stocks.

Re:Exactly

[SillyNickName4me]

Hmm.. dono, but I think the flamebait mod was more appropriate then the insightfull one ;P

Re:Exactly

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

Thanks - its the IPAQ 1945 series - integrated bluetooth, nice size, pretty powerful, and fairly cheep off of overstock. For those who are curious, yes, it'll run Linux... :)

Yes and No

[pherris]

Yes, PDAs in their current form are on a dead end road but if they can adapt they have a bright future ahead. Part of the problem is there are only two types of serious PDAs: Palm and PocketPC and they are both completely mismanaged.

Palm is so fucked up right now they don't know the time of day. It kinda reminds me of Apple just when Jobs came back. They have seven models with overlapping features and limit flexability. They need to cut back to three models:

The Tungsten E, priced at $150 and has comes with a universal connecter and has the ability to add in a bluetooth SD card and thumb board. Think of it as the iBook of PDAs. Make it durable and market it to students and first time PDA buyers. Right now Palm's entry level PDA, the Zire 21, is the biggest piece of shit ever dreamed of. It doesn't even have a backlit screen, something they fail to mention anywhere on their website or packaging. Way to piss off the buyer. In contrast the Tungsten E is a very nice little machine (flawed but nice).

The Tungsten C but with the sliding screen of the T3, snap in bluetooth or 802.11x. Think of it as the PowerBook of PDAs

The Treo 600. One crossover phone/pda model.

Palm needs to develope something like Hypercard (the orignal where everyone could build stacks) or buy hypercard from Apple and give it away with every unit they sell. A lot of HC stacks sucked but it created a lot of buzz for the Mac. I make a lot of references to Apple because Jobs (who is a miserable human being) took Apple off it's death bed and turned it into a cash cow. Do they control the PC world? No way. Do they need to? No way. Palm needs to think different.

As for the PocketPC, if they win the PDA wars it will be by default. Palm has the potential of being much better if they can "unfuck" themselves. Don't blame declining PDA sales on the concept of the PDA when the management of these companies are to blame.

Re:Yes and No

[vslashg]

As for the PocketPC, if they win the PDA wars it will be by default. Palm has the potential of being much better if they can "unfuck" themselves. Don't blame declining PDA sales on the concept of the PDA when the management of these companies are to blame.

I'm curious if you could elaborate here. You say that PocketPC is completely mismanaged but you don't say why you think so.

I disagree that PocketPCs can only win by default. I've used both and I much prefer PocketPCs (though I admit the UI is flawed... you have to download a couple of third party tools to make it truly usable.)

Re:Yes and No

[pherris]

For the few times I've used PocketPC I found the interface too much like MS windows, which IMO, isn't the right way to address the issue. A PDA is not a PC and shouldn't be treated the same.

I really left the whole PocketPC thing alone because of my limited exposer to them. I apologize but the majority of my feelings about it is tainted by great dislike for Microsoft.

Yes, it's a poor excuse but it's the only one I have. In all honestly I should judge MS products on their own merits and not on the mantra "M$ sucks".

Is there any reason I should like it over the Palm OS?

Something Dead if Accomodates an Industry?

[idonotexist]

Sounds like you want the PDA dead, regardless of reason?

A person explains he/she uses a PDA extensively in a medical practice and you explain the PDA is, regardless, dead --- he/she uses the PDA as a "medical applicance" --- "when something is changed to accomodate the needs of a specific industry, it ceases to function in it's role for the general public."

Let's take your line of reason and apply it to the PC. A PC is useful to me for software development, I use it day-to-day. The PC really solely accomodates the needs of the software industry, therefore it cease to function in its role for the public. So, the PC is dead?

It sounds to me that miracle69 provide an example of how the PDA is not dead; it is useful.

Well

[bsd4me]

I don't use my PDA anymore since I don't have a need.

My wife uses her PDA a lot since she often needs to do work in locations where she needs access to information, and using a laptop is infeasible.

My sister uses a PDA at work for easy access to reference material.

My doctor writes prescriptions from a PDA, and prints them out from a wireless printer.

I have a doctor friend who also uses a PDA at work, but I'm not sure for what.

Sony killed themselves....

[Fallen Kell]

They shot themselves in the foot by not having the camera optional in their top of the line pda's. I personally would have been very interested in their clie line, but could not get any pda that had the features I wanted without a camera. The problem with the camera is the fact that where I work, they are not allowed! What is the point in buying the pda only to not be able to bring it into any of the buildings that I work in?

They should have taken a page from HP and released a version of all their pda's that have a camera with a version that does not have the camera. I'm just wanting on HP to release a pda that has 480x640 resolution and I will buy one. This isn't so much HP's faught, but the idot at MS who decided to hard code in the screen resolution at 240x320 into the OS!!! I mean seriously, did they REALLY think that no one would want to use a resolution other then that? Did they believe that LCD screen technology would not continue to inovate and develop higher resolution screens? Or were they simply pressed for time because they were late to market on an immerging new operating system market for mobile devices? I think it was the latter...

Anyway back on topic, I would have been glad to fork over $400-700 for a top of the line clie that had WiFi, bluetooth, a 480x640 3.5" screen, and possibly CF or SDIO memory slot, WITHOUT a camera. Besides if I WANTED a digital camera, I would have just spent the $50 for a similar 1.1 megapixel camera (or modded a Kodak "1 time use" digital camera to a multiuse camera for $25).

PDA Utility

[ancarett]

I use my PDA to keep copies of my course manuals (I'm a university professor), to access the library catalogue when I'm out of my office and around the campus, to add research notes when working in the library or at home and to remind me when I need to go teach my classes. I no longer need to lug a laptop around anywhere: my PDA does it all.

I'm one of those strange people who doesn't have a cell phone, though. Had one for a few years and it got pretty boring paying 40+ (Can.) per month for service. I've had a family situation crop up where I might need to get one, again: if I could find a phone that covers all my PDA functionality (especially the document handling), I might be convinced to put my PDA aside.

Priced in the wrong direction

[almaon]

I've always tried my best to keep personal treasures under a certain price if the following could be applied to them:

A) I could break it by sitting on it with my massive ass
B) Lose it
C) Someone would be willing to steal it off my person due to it's value.

So I never wanted to risk spending betweeen $200-800 on a PDA in fear that one of the above would happen.

Well eventually a few models would drop down to 129$, and I bought a discontinued Sony Clie. Really cool little gadget. It was cheap, but had practical features. Built-in lithium ion battery with 60+ hours of charge, a simple black and white screen with a indiglo backlight, scroll wheel. I got a lot of use out of the little creature.

Eventually B) happened, I lost it. Was not the end of the world cause it was at a price point I was willing to deal with A, B or C happening to.

So I go out to find me a replacement, at the time, everything had color screens, cameras, mp3 players, etc. All really cool stuff, but it jacked the price up out of my reach.

Then you had the Palm Zire series, certainly cheap. But it had none of the practical features I relied on.

I think we're all attracted to cool, but I'm willing to bet that most people crave cool but buy what they can get by with and afford.

I know Ford sells more cars than Porsche partly cause of this :)

I think partly this is why the PDA market is drying up, for me, I feel they are pricing themselves out of reach. For people that feel the same as myself, that they're too expensive to risk losing/breaking/having stolen, rather do without than the risk.

Unfortunate, I really liked Monopoly for Palm.

Re:Priced in the wrong direction

[gnu-generation-one]

"Unfortunate, I really liked Monopoly for Palm."

Don't you need Windows to run a monopoly?

Re:Priced in the wrong direction

[Anonymous Coward]

"A) I could break it by sitting on it with my massive ass"

How massive is your ass, anyway? Could you include some pictures, preferably of your *naked* ass?

Yes

[duffbeer703]

A multi-fuctional, $0.39 notepad combined with a disposable pen or pencil replicates 90% of the functionality of a PDA and is easier to use.

PDAs are a waste of time and money, useful for salespeople and people with too many meetings to go to.

EBooks

[rende]

Reading ebooks is the most useful function I have found for my PDA. I have probably read 20+ books so far on my PDA while reading in bed and in various places. Its much more convienant to carry around a PDA which has a few books stored on it then the books themselves. Also it is much cheaper/free to download books off the internet from sites like project gutenburg. I wouldn't go out and buy a brand new $200+ PDA for this purpose, but an older model off Ebay is well worth the cost IMHO. I still highly prefer reading traditional books but in certain circumstances it comes in handy.

It's easy to see why they are failing however, other then that I would have no use for one. I got a hold of various software (engineering tools, chemistry tools, scientific calculator) which would all have come in handy for school but ended up just using my ti-89 like always. I also tried using it to keep track of my contacts and such but that quickly fell to the wayside as the notebooks I always carry around with me worked just as well.

Finished? No.

[Matey-O]

I've got an HP 4150...I managed to 'trade-up' to it after the 1900 kept having odd issues. The wireless features have renewed my interest in PDAs.

When the time came to jump from Sprint, I got a Motorola V600. The bLuetooth connectivity is really nice. (Lets me leave the phone in my pocket and retreive my email on the train/bus)

I'd MUCH rather read eBooks on the PDA than the phone. The calendar functions on the Moto are improving, but still not as good as the WinCE stuff I already had.

The combo lets me take my info with me in a tiny formfactor (the phone) and or the better display (the PDA) depending on just how much I need to carry around. They both have my calendar and contacts, it's just that one is a better screen and one is a 'connector' when WiFi isn't available. (Or when I wanna connect to the ousdie world from my full sized laptop)

Then again, I can turn off the backlight on the pda and use the overhead light on an airplane and get a BUNCH more pattery life than I could with the laptop.

Are PDAs Dead? I don't think so, but I DO think the fragmented market will lose a lot of the smaller players. Sony's decision in leaving the market is typical of the schizophrenic(sp?) behavior Sony has shown in the past.

"I'm not dead"

[meatspray]

PDA's aren't dead, just stale. My pda has bluetooth, wifi and is fast enough to emulate an super nintendo. Nothing new has come on the market since I bought the thing that would make me want to entertain the though of buying a new one.

With the advent of relatively inexpensive PDA's those who could make use of organizers bought them. There's little reason for your average joe to go out and upgrade his organizer. With the lack of new functionality there's not much incentive for your average gadget geek to upgrade thiers either.

It was a market that needed to be filled. They shot so hard to fill it that it became over populated with products. Now they'll all back out too quickly and create an unfilled demand again. Vicious cycle eh?

Annoying marketing

[GregWebb]

I started with a Palm III. Nice machine in many ways but really limited by an over-small screen and Graffiti. I never got more than 30wpm on it and tended to have very poor accuracy even with training - it's just too sensitive to small changes and I found by playing with giraffe that there were some basic errors in its topography software.

Nearly 4 years later, I _love_ my PDA and can't imagine doing without it. It's a Psion 5mx.

The upright machines have screens small enough that you can't read any colume of data on them and a data entry system that gets fiddly if you're writing anything longer than a shopping list. A keyboard can be fitted, yes, but you have to take it out of your pocket, build the thing and then find a table. In a few hours I'll be at my church with my Psion, taking sermon notes with the Psion resting on my knees.

An upright looks better in the shops because it's cheaper, smaller and appears easier to use on the move - but long-term use shows you've got to be really keen to make it worthwhile, they don't actually fit particularly comfortably in your shirt pocket and that they're far from ideal as anything other than readers. A colour-screened keyboard machine like most of the WinCE machines equally looks better in the shops but is too expensive and eats batteries. WinCE in general tends to look better because they've got more memory and faster processors - but, just like old Windows v anything else battles, poorer design means it _needs_ those higher spec components to be usable - and the trade-off is in lower battery life.

The Psion, when you actually give it a try, has a keyboard I can touchtype on at little less speed than a desktop keyboard, battery life of 2-3 weeks normal use on 2 AAs and a screen I can really read sensible amounts of data on. I've regularly typed notes in meetings and so on on it with no difficulties. It still fits in a jacket pocket, it's cheaper and it's got a pretty good default software bundle. OK, the synchronisation software was, erm, sub-optimal ;-) but in all other respects it's just great.

And it died because the marketers consistently tried to sell machines that look better in the shops but don't actually work as well day-to-day, and the sector's now dying because people are stuck with these poor machines and realising they're poor.

Someone, please, buy up Psion's keyboard patent and build a modern 5 that can sync. It won't be too expensive and it'll just be a lovely machine that will make PDAs worthwhile again.

Mod -1 == Totally Wrong

[brunes69]

For one, you cannot connect devices like keyboards, gpses etc. etc.

Wrong. You can use bluetooth keyboards with many phones.

Can you install a diet program in a phone as easily as in a pda?

Yes. Most phones run either Java, or Symbian, both of which have free SDKs. And there are thousands of apps available.

Can you program your pda?

Yes, see above.

A pda is a programmable computer, can be said the same for a phone (running maybe a proprietary OS) ?

Yes it can. See above.

Re:Mod -1 == Totally Wrong

[rongten]

I see.

So I guess you need to start collecting bluetooth
devices.

I will stick with my palm m500 and magellan gps
companion, that does everything I need, and then,
some.

I guess I am of the idea a phone should just be
used to make calls, and that it should be as small
as possible, rather than having a screen big
enough to be usable for maps, directions etc.

Re:Mod -1 == Totally Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

But you can't use that phone or bluetooth keyboard on the airplane, can you?

Re:Mod -1 == Totally Wrong

[brunes69]

So you'd rather carry around a palm m500 *and* a phone, rather than just a sightly larger phone that does everything your plam does and more?

You have an odd sense of "compact".

Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[tepples]

Why have a PDA when you can bring the actual applications and data you want with you anywhere.

Doesn't the Sharp Zaurus PDA already run the same apps you run on your GNU/Linux workstation?

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and I've been writing parts of my LAMP applications in it for 2 years now while I'm on the train. It's a niche use, but I'm happy I can slip a lightweight device into my cargo pants that doesn't break the bank.

Clients cringe when I tell them part of their website was written on my PDA. Challenge convention.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Compuser]

Does it run crossover and powerpoint with any speed?
I didn't look hard but it also looks like this
doesn't have VGA out nor DVI, so how exactly is
this useful again? Does it at least have a couple
of USB slots?
I need a device that is small but can carry my
presentations AND would allow me to edit said
presentations in a pinch on the go with no power
but batteries (in a dark room).

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[theLOUDroom]

doesn't have VGA out nor DVI, so how exactly is this useful again? Does it at least have a couple of USB slots?

Does it take QIC-80 tapes and zip discs?
No, well then it's useless.

I mean, fuck, you're always going to be able find SOMETHING a device can't do and then say "it's useless".

(Of course you haven't done your homework either, since last I knew a VGA output card for the CF slot was already availible in japan and perhaps on the way to the US.)

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Compuser]

Like I said, I didn't look hard.
Now I do not know how many people need old media
access on the road but there is a ton of people
doing presentations on the road. A real PC in a
palmtop form factor would be sweet for a lot of
people. Zaurus comes close but still fails
miserably. It can't compete with a notebook.
This is what I meant by "useless". I did not mean
it in some general all-encompassing sense, because
surely you can find uses for most things, if only
as a paperweight.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[theLOUDroom]

Zaurus comes close but still fails miserably.

Spoken like someone who doesn't own one or know much about them.

The Zaurus does compete with a notebook, more than any other "pocket pc" out there.

I may or may not be able to do the ONE SPECFIC THING that you want it to do, but that doesn't qualify you to call it a miserable failure.

That's like calling planes a miserable failure because we all drive cars. They're useful, but like everything else out there, they have strengths and weaknesses.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[cybpunks3]

The Zaurus isn't there yet because it has no integrated hard drive and the clamshell models don't have wifi built-in.

Also, the CPU and/or graphics are still too underpowered for these things to play DivX movies at full resolution and framerate.

That's why I think something designed with multimedia in mind (which solves both of these issues) is a more likely candidate, like the upcoming Archos AV500. Now if these things cost $1,000 then it's still a pricepoint issue.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[colinrichardday]

Does it run gcc?

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[theLOUDroom]

Does it run gcc?

Yep, and there's an Xserver for it too.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Xformer]

Can you fry an egg on it? No? Then I don't want it. C'mon... the heat from that hardware has got to go somewhere. Ever put a laptop directly on your lap?

Anyway, not sure about editing them, but you can store and present them from a Palm OS or Pocket PC unit already. Trying to edit them on a screen that small (VGA resolution or no) seems insane as it is.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Compuser]

No, that thing merely generates and shows slides.
A presentation has transition effects, built-in
video, and other niceties that tax the processor.
I doubt it has full Powerpoint functionality.
I also often embed WMP video in my presentations.
I doubt this can understand embedding, preserve
positioning and decode in real-time. But if it
can then it is one half of a solution.

Re:Zaurus PDA runs GNU/Linux

[Compuser]

Oh, and as for editing, I usually have a
projector with me and I can bring one of those
rollaway keyboards, so mostly I need a computer
in a palmtop formfactor. It having a screen and
tiny keyboard would be useful because I often
want to replay my presentation for one or two
people later and it is usually on the go.

Could it be, just maybe, a niche market...

[Slashdot Junky]

Dear World,

Perhaps I am wrong here. Could it be, just maybe, a niche market that will never grow beyond the consumers that presently have a PDA and are willing to buy new ones periodically?

-Slashdot Junky

Time for the Zaurus

[D4C5CE]

As it has already been suggested in this thread (albeit somewhat sarcastically), this is the time to let Sharp know now there are markets in the West virtually without competition for quite a while, and a geek population eager to spend some money on what should be their next incarnation of the Zaurus (i.e. in reasonable amounts on reasonably-equipped devices: Who wouldn't want a clamshell version of this Linux machine if it was more easily procurable, and finally came with 802.11g & Bluetooth...).
A Slashdot effect from a few hundred thousand potential buyers' eMail (form) requests ;-) should just do the trick and get the subject some management attention...

Re:Time for the Zaurus

[paroneayea]

True. The Zaurus has not done nearly so well in the US as it has in Japan... and I think the reason for that is fairly clear: the Japanese have the clamshell models. And really, everyone here wants the clamshell models too!
I know I'm not the first to say this, but it just makes you wonder how stupid Sharp is to pass up this marketing opportunity.

Re:Time for the Zaurus

[Methuseus]

So, Palm, who is generally still a little less expensive than the Zaurus PDAs, is no competition? I personally like their products and would be interested in buying a Tungsten T3 if it has Wifi, and it's cheaper than any Zaurus with similar features (at least at the time I was looking a month or 2 ago).

Where's the keyboard!?

[CdBee]

To appeal to me a PDA has to have support for at least VGA width, and a keyboard. I just don't want to have to write in calligraphy on the screen.

Only the Psions - now deceased as a range - and the expensive HP Jornadas have this sort of design. IMO we need more. Preferably with modems built in and an ability to sync with a Mac!

Re:Where's the keyboard!?

[way2trivial]

take a look at the fujitsu p100 here it's a full fledged pc, the actually the size of a paperback...

Re:Where's the keyboard!?

[CdBee]

Right format, wrong interior

A PDA needs a PDA operating system, not a desktop/server OS. It also needs 24+hr battery life. That things small, but its still a laptop, meaning it'll go flat in less than a full working day.. and will cost twice as much as the too-expensive HP Jornada HPCs !

PDA's will survive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I know the use of PDA may seem to be pointed downhill, however, the functionality will be merging I believe. These companies are not stupid, and will pull out immediately, or we will see the next Axim and iPaq with cell capabilities. I use an old Casio E-125 now for in car GPS. It's a very handy tool that far surpasses anything a cell can do. I also use it at the same time via my CD player line in to play in car movies(widescreen of course), stream mp3's/ogg's, and announce directions. I think it may be a bit premature to see PDA's themselves dead, but their expanse will cover cell phones.

PDA's

[loid_void]

What's a PDA?

A tool for interactive museums

[Borg453b]

There's a museum in Denmark that utilizes PDAs to "enrichen" the museum experience. Using barcodes/ something similar (it is able to interface with the exhibited items). One of concepts behind the "interactive museum", is that you choose what kind of topic you want to focus on. The current exhibit is based on birds of flight. You could e.g. focus on the differences between flight mechanics of birds, feeding habits or otherwise. The pda will then guide you through the various exhibitied items, and provide specialize information about the topic of your choice in the relation to the items you're presented with.

They have also developed "museum" game modes, designed for schoolchildren that encourage kids to do "research" as they travel from item to item, awarding them with points as they go along.

Furthermore - as far as I could tell, the pdas will store information about the items you have seen, and provide information about them online; so the experience doesnt end as you leave the museum. The idea is that, if you see an item of particular interest, you can "mark it" using your pda - and you will then be able to read more about it in a webportal, when you get back home.

The overall point is to cater for individual learning experiences.
Why not use touchscreens, you might ask? Well, if you've been to a museum as of late, you might have experienced children fighting over getting to push buttons and the limit to conventional signs: there's only so many people that can read a sign at once in confined spaces.

With the pda, the user gets to investigate matters at his own pace, focusing on issues that interest him; while getting a feel for the physical aspect of things (rather than just sitting at home, using wikipedia or encarta)

MS and Palm are moving too slowly...

[martin-k]

Microsoft and Palm consider PDAs apt just for contact management, and multimedia. IMO, that's a much too limited view. I'm using them as a laptop replacement, and many of my customers do the same thing. With the right word processor and the right spreadsheet (shameless plug...) plus e-mail software and a web browser they could do what most people want from their laptop computers.

And with hires screens (640*480, yummy), you can actually see what you are editing.

But Microsoft and Palm are moving much too slowly. New features in PalmOS 5? It's ARM-compatible. New features in Windows Mobile 2003 SE? Landscape support. That's all! They should get off their a**es and improve the devices. What about putting more of the Windows API in Pocket PCs so that apps actually _get_ ported to Pocket PCs? What about speech recognition and dictation? What about making data replication work instead of relying on ActiveSync? etc. etc.

Make PDAs more useful and customers will buy them.

Is it lack of manpower or of imagination?

-mk

Re:MS and Palm are moving too slowly...

[mcjulio]

The two features you requested, real office applications and hi-DPI support, are both in the next release of the PocketPC. The current release of the PPC already has email software and a web browser, as well as office apps that will happily chew up your documents and spit them out with data loss.

As for the API set, most of the Windows API is represented in identical (if slightly less feature-rich) form on the PPC. The real difficulty in porting isn't in the APIs but in the drastically different UI paradigm combined with the space restrictions. Your average PPC has 16 MB available by default for application use, which isn't nearly enough for just about any modern desktop application.

Speech recognition is a fine idea, but the same device specification restrictions apply.

ENTER THE POCKET PC

[llZENll]

Pocket PCs have always beaten the sh!t out of Palms, it was only a matter of time before everyone converted to the simpler, more powerful, and better software PPC platform. Not to mention writing apps and games for the PPC is 1000x easier.

PPC will take the whole PDA market, and for good reason, they rule :D MS did something right with the PPC and it is showing, GOOD BYE $ONY :D

Re:ENTER THE POCKET PC

[Anonymous Coward]

It only took them what, three or four tries to get an OS that didn't suck?

Seriously, if you think Pocket PCs were ever simpler than Palms, you're smoking some real good crack there.

The cell-phone PDA is not going to catch on so fas

[Geekpunk66]

Of course, PDAs will soon die out, however all of their functions will still be in existence. Such as a regular old cell phone with calender and word processing fuctions. However there is still one thing before someone will go and buy one of the darn things: carrier. Let's say that Cingular wireless does not have PhonePDA. However Nextel does, but you can't switch because you are a Cingular customer who still has another year until the contract ends. What do you do? You buy a regular PDA. And since you might want stability, you avoid buying a ultra small computer running windows xp and instead go for the cheap and stable design of a Palm handheld device. Don't be so sure about the immediate demise of the PDA, because it's not going out the window for another couple of years.

Just changing direction

[t_allardyce]

Obviously increasing functionality is vital - whos going to buy a device that for the last 15 years really hasnt changed much in basic functionality? The first major step was allowing extra software to be added - either by downloading or on cards, this is really what a computer is all about. The next step is just to add more hardware devices, card slots for extra things etc. This has already started to happen - combining a PDA and phone, camera, wireless/bluetooth etc it really just needs more battery life, memory, speed and resolution..

Game Boy? If so, then no.

[tepples]

Personally, I would like to have one device that acts as a cell phone, PDA, GPS, browser, digital camera, and Game Boy. Are there any integrated devices that have all of these capabilities?

You mentioned compatibility with GAME BOY(tm) cartridges. Until the patents on DMG technology expire in 2010 or so, the only device that can play DMG cartridges unquestionably lawfully is a device made by Nintendo, and Nintendo has not announced any plans to put mobile phone features into its handheld systems.

Re:Game Boy? If so, then no.

[Anonymous Coward]

fair use

Re:Game Boy? If so, then no.

[Anonymous Coward]

fair use doesn't apply to patents on game systems the way it applies to copyrights on game programs

Maps!

[wombatmobile]

I think the major reason "PDAs" are dying is because virtually every cellphone on sale these days has most of the functionality PDAs are generally used for, with the exception of...

Maps! These work better with a larger screen.

Not going to happen

[Anonymous Coward]

The OQO is going to cost around $2000, and I doubt the Sony and the Flipstart will be much cheaper.

My PDA cost $0.89

[goon america]

I have a PDA. I keep in my pocket all the time. It's been tremendously convenient to keep it around. It's a little side-bound reporter's notebook I bought at CVS for $0.89. I keep a pen stuck in the spiral coil.

• Advantages:
• Costs 500-900 times less than a PDA
• Unlimited battery power
• Small, and actually flexible so it's more comfortable in your pocket
• Much easier to write in and read out of than a PDA
• Unique "page" system can contain any kind of information, stored in a particualr 3-dimensional space so you can easily remember where you wrote any particular thing.
• Easily replaced at minimal cost

I am at pains to think of any way in which this rather pedestrian thing has any serious disadvantages over a real PDA. Anything of unlosable importance I copy into my personal wiki or addressbook.yahoo.com. Sure, I've thought about buying a real PDA! I settled on this because I didn't want to get some $300 device lost or stolen on a trip I was taking across Europe (that's what my iPod is for). Some people seem to have etched into their brains that (newer + more expensive + more "advanced") must always == better. Well, I'm here to tell you it's not always the case. Maybe having a PDA just encourages you to keep good habits, and you were drawn into it because you thought it was cool, but you could actually do the same thing more efficiently using something rather old and traditional and inexpensive.

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[xtal]

I used to laugh at people who had PDAs. Then my little black book along with YEARS of contact info fell in a mudpuddle. After transcribing soggy half-legible pages, let me introduce you to the biggest reason to have a PDA:

You can back the damn thing up. $300 is NOTHING compared to the value of the information in my PDA.

PDA's are only useful if you always have them with you, too. What PDA's need, like notebooks, is the transparent bluetooth connection TO the cell phone for data. Those cell phone screens hurt my eyes. In Canada, the prices for wireless data over CDPD or GPRS is priced way to high to be used for anything, so maybe it's not as big of a deal here.

One things PDAs have done is they have been a BOON for the homebrew embedded industry. With about $20 in extra parts I built a really nice datalogger and digital gauge set for my car - and I got the palm for $60 on Ebay. (shameless plug) They're even cheaper now. (8mb of storage, a nice LCD, and buttons!) .. millions of pdas have been sold worldwide, too. Happy happy!

Maybe the mass market appeal of PDA's will drop, but they will always be there. I miss my HP100LX "real" palmtop/PDA though. Used it until the keys broke. All the ones that followed were much too big and clunky.

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[Moofie]

Uh huh.

What happens when you lose your pad? You lose all the information in it.

What happens when I lose my Palm? I buy another one at Fry's for $50 and bring it home, push the button on the cradle, and it's indistinguishable from my old one.

The data is valuable. The device is not.

So shove your condescending "Why don't you use a pencil?" attitude up your ass. With your pencil.

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[wskellenger]

I am at pains to think of any way in which this rather pedestrian thing has any serious disadvantages over a real PDA. Anything of unlosable importance I copy into my personal wiki or addressbook.yahoo.com. Sure, I've thought about buying a real PDA! I settled on this because I didn't want to get some $300 device lost or stolen on a trip I was taking across Europe (that's what my iPod is for).

Things you shouldn't do with a paper notebook, or things that the paper notebook CAN'T do:

Store sensitive information

Backup data

Remind you of appointments or tasks (x days in advance, every year, every month, etc.)

Function as an alarm clock

Function as an MP3 player

Perform unit conversions

Search through entire contents instantly

Automate expense reports

Record voice memos

etc

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[fr0dicus]

I don't find pen and paper more efficient at all. My PDA handles dictation, highly portable network access, brilliantly simple synchronization with my work schedules and tasks so I can see what I've got to do without need for access to a work system, multiple searchable reference volumes, and loads of silly games. All of these things save me time when I need it, allowing me to use my time more effectively.

By contrast the smallest paper organizer I can find is at least twice the thickness and at that size is fairly annoying to use. The low cost is mitigated by the high maintenance and lack of functionality. PDAs are designed as a time saver device like many other appliances. When used correctly, they more than pay for themselves with time gained.

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[walterbyrd]

Agree 100%.

I have a $200 sony clie, which I never use. It was given to me as a gift.

In fairness, it will do a few things that I can't do with pen and paper. But for 95% of what I do, a pen and paper is *far* more efficent. Jotting down down notes, looking up an address, if far easier with paper.

BTW: I keep an address file in a plain text document on my PC. I've had it for years. I spend maybe one minute every month updating it.

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[Doctor_Jest]

It's all funny until someone puts an eye out. :)

Where I work, I can't carry a PDA (3 guesses where that might be..) So I had to "upgrade" to a Pad and paper....

Much easier to use, and no one will send me to Leavenworth for using a pad and paper. :)

Re:My PDA cost $0.89

[Moofie]

That's a good reason not to use a PDA.

For the other 99% of us, not being allowed to use a PDA is a non-issue.

Hell, the guys at Los Alamos can't keep track of their removable hard drives. Imagine the chaos if everybody had USB thumbdrives...

Seems to me like good security would not be dependant on what sort of tools the employees carried on their persons, but what the heck do I know?

forgot to change the batteries? Oh no!

[mrmargolis]

As long as I need to run different apps on my PDA and desktop and need to worry about replacing batteries to not lose my data I will not buy another PDA. I own a visor delux but do not use it anymore. It was cool at first but quickly became more of a hastle to upkeep(data and batteries) than it was worth. Give me an ipod mini type hd, wifi/bluetooth, voice recognition and well designed syncing software and I may reconsider my PDA boycott.

Just an observation

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a quick observation since the article is some what misleading. The Clie has not been discontinued. It is simply not going to be sold in the US or European markets any longer. It is and will be still available in the asian markets where the clie holds the majority of the market.

The PDA market at this point is fairly well saturated. Sales are down, and Sony only held a fraction of the us/european market. They have been loosing money on distribution and it only made sense to get out for a while.

I was a PDA early adopter

[Anonymous Coward]

They looked cool, they sounded cool. In practice, they weren't cool. I avoided Tablet PCs for the same reason.

The problem, in my case, I am not away from my desk that long to justify either one. Occasionally there have been times when I was able to take down notes from a meeting, and to send them around after the fact. This was kind of neat, but honestly, I wasn't about to get into the "scribe" role at every meeting, just so I could show off my fancy new PDA. Secondly, as good as the input was, it was much slower and more distracting for others than to simply jot things down on a piece of paper.

There was only one killer app for me, and that was the ability to read electronic books while in bed.

Not really

[GarfBond]

The problem with the market right now is that it's shifting. Standard PDA models are actually falling out of favor, as the current future is really in the convergence market. PDAs and cell phones are increasingly finding themselves in overlapping regions, and consumers are looking to cut down on the number of devices they carry. As it is right now, I personally carry a Palm Vx and my cell phone with me quite often, and it would be amazing if I could only carry one item.

Handspring realized this quite a while ago, and now the fruits of their efforts can be realized in the Treo 600. While not a perfect product, it is probably the best convergence device out there. It runs Palm OS5, but has incredibly strong telephony functions. A lot of people simply love theirs (I'm looking to get one when Verizon certifies it for use on the network, and when my contract expires).

Handspring is now a unit of PalmOne, which does mean that even if the market moves out from under PalmOne, they'll be able to react as necessary. PalmSource also renamed OS5 to Garnet (targeted for less powerhungry cell phones) and OS6 is Cobalt (for the power PDA users).

Symbian enjoys a nice presence with Nokia and S/E phones as well. It might be worth noting with the availability of Palm Garnet and Sony's exit from the PDA space, there remains an unlikely possibility for Sony to continue working with Palm.

The PDA space isn't completely done yet though. Just like any other market, it's probably waiting for its next "killer app." Some other poster mentioned how much the Zire21 sucks. Well yeah, if you're a /. reader it sucks. But if you're a soccer mom, it might be just right. The fact that it's priced at $99 and is one of the best selling PDAs of all time probably shows how untapped this market remains to be.

Personally, I think PDAs would be able to last a lot longer if Bluetooth was deployed more widely. Think of it: the integration of a PDAphone but the power of having two separate devices. It's quite promising, but the cell phone makers and network providers probably aren't going for it, as it means slightly lower profits. With convergence devices, you have to get them from your provider and instead of buying a $50 phone w/BT you're buying a $200-300 PDAphone with a gimmicky camera and other things. More money for them. Of course there remains the two devices issue, but it would just offer different markets.

Re:Why bother? Carrying a website...

[hexag]

My girlfriend & I run an internet sex shop, so we use our PDAs to carry around our website, pictures of our products & our catalouge, this we can show to our friends & random people we meet who we think might be interested. Having all the prices with us all the time; cost & retail, proves indispensible.

Maybe a 'smartphone' would have done the trick, having a nice big screen on the Palm T3 is valueable too.

PDAs aren't dead

[A.T. Hun]

The problem is that many of Sony's models (at least the interesting ones) were so expensive that they priced themselves out of a market. Palm is selling their Tungsten E and some Zires by the truckload. Why? Because the Tungsten E has the best screen out there, more memory than most people will need (and an SD slot if you need more), and a pretty fast CPU. Best of all: it's cheap. Bluetooth/WiFi/whatever is a nice idea, but it drains batteries way too fast. And, frankly, most people don't care, at least not enough to pay a premium for it.

I don't see PDAs ever fully disappearing. I'm self-employed, so I rely on my PDA for everything. It's much more convenient than a big old Franklin Daily Planner that I would need to buy new every year. I can play games and listen to MP3s on a trip. Basically, I couldn't do my job without it.

As much as the PDA/cellphone hybrid sounds cool, there are too many difficulties in pulling it off. The latest Treos come closest. Even then, the screen is much smaller than my Tungsten E while still being wider than most new phones. As another poster mentioned, the battery life can't match my mono Kyocera, at least not if I'd also use the Treo as a PDA. The real killer is that the Treo has no analog capabilities. Granted, there's a nice digital tower in town, but as soon as I get very far out of town, I'm on analog.

To top it all off, Sprint has the Treo for $450. My Tungsten E cost $199 and my Kyocera was virtually free. I get two devices that do their respective jobs better than the combo device for less than half the price. No brainer.

$700-$1200 a piece.. see ya later!

[derekb]

Who is the target market for these? The early Palm made it to my Geek toolkit because it was less than 300 bucks. For a corporation, you can argue 'palm pilot, 300 bucks, filofax, 300 bucks'. But in that 700-1200 dollar mark they all seem to be in now, who is the market for these devices?

Yes it's fun to have a biometric, wifi, bluetooth, blah blah rig (I used to use mine in Gare du Nord in Paris to check my mail via GPRS when I was waiting to leave Paris by train - I had a job where I was very mobile and the company agreed it was a good purchase). But I can't see it a justifiable purchase these days.

Changing Service, moving etc.

[akintayo]

So what do you do when you change your cell phone company ? Most phones are locked to one service provider. So you may have to transfer your data to a new phone, and that is not a simple process.

By the same token, what happens if you visit an area where your provider isn't are you going to walk around with two phones ?

Re:Changing Service, moving etc.

[emir]

> Most phones are locked to one service provider

This seems to vary from country to country. Anyway all phones can be unlocked pretty easily at your local phone dealer. Some can even be unlocked with the help of the codes that can be downloaded from the Internet.


> So you may have to transfer your data to a new phone, and that is not a simple process.

There are software packages that will allow you to do complete backup (settings/messages/phone book) of your phone. Offcourse your phone needs to be able to communicate with your computer in some way (bluetooth/ir/cable).

Fansy Wireless Phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

First thing the aticle is from wireless.newsfactor and I see it as an opinion rather than news.

Many people (including myself) do not want to rely on cellular phones. A PDA (preferably a palm) is till very important for me. I can use Plucker/iSilo to have reference Textbooks/documents available for me in a palm sized tool; it is not always feasable to carry a laptop and unless you have a desk job, a desktop (even with a roaming profile) is not a better option. I also have all the Linux How-To, FAQ, etc so for quick access during an install or for reading.

Fansy phones are nothing other than "Fansy Phones". It is very dificult for a product to be good in more than one field.

The reason Sony pulled out of this market is the same reason why B&O (Bang & Olufsen) never introduced their cellular ohone siries to the US market; the market is simply to congested with low quality toys and the wireless companies have a monopoly on the market. Outside the US, you can get any GSM cellular phone, put your chip and your connected. In the US, GSM phones still need to be activated via your provifer. It is still a monopoly. The PDA market is as congested and I am not surprised about what sony did; the cheap low quality fansy phones may have few capabilities but do not come close to a PDA.

Sharp Zaurus

[rpdillon]

I had a Handspring Visor for a while, and then a Visorphone... That eventually gave way to a Nokia cellphone and now a Sharp Zaurus.

Running Linux on the PDA is awesome, because it makes the whole package very hackable, and the possibilities regarding application porting are tremendous. I just added an 802.11b CF card to it, along with 512 mb SD card, and using the Zynergy ROM set, the device handles all my email, some web browsing (for sites like slashdot.org/palm and CNN to GO) and also can do MP3/Ogg Vorbis. The built-in keyboard (say what you will, it *is* quite fast) works well with inputting contacts and notes.

The best is putting it into an ad-hoc 802.11 network with my laptop, running VNC on it, and bringing up the screen on my laptop along with an samba connection for file swapping, and I can input data, transfer files, and then leave the laptop in the hotel and bring the Zaurus with me, including important .pdfs, word documents and excel spreadsheets.

No phone or palm device can do all that. I would say that if we can mainstream some of these features in other PDAs (I had to hack a bit to get the desired result), people would see that phones don't really measure up that well, and PDAs can actually replace laptops to some extent, just as laptops can replace desktops to some extent.

The new Sharp SL-6000 has built in 802.11b as well as the CF and SD/MMC slots, so all the better for expandability.

Dinosaurs : Birds :: PDAs : ???

[John.P.Jones]

The functionality of a PDA will remain and will grow in popularity but it will be merged with other devices. Convergence is a good thing, PDAs, phones, mp3 players, basically all personal electronics devices will converge.

Its called a Universal Turing Machine...

General Reference

[Anonymous Coward]

I use my PDA to carry arround the thousands of pages of .pdf files I need for work. If it wasn't able to read those comfortably, I would have no use for it. A friend who is a doctor has put his medical references on his PDA and carries them everywhere.

As a note-taker, appointment maker it sucks.

It plays nethack, too.

Re:General Reference

[mattyrobinson69]

thats only a niche tho - there's nothing niche about a mobile phone

i agree with you that thats a good use for a pda, but thats only one feature, which a future mobile may have anyway - the PDA only option is going the way of the dodo, but the PDA that can make phone calls is thriving, and will continue to

Re:General Reference

[NanoGator]

"As a note-taker, appointment maker it sucks."

The voice recorder feature of the Pocket PC is very underrated. I used it when beta testing a video system my previous company made to keep track of bugs since I couldn't sit in front of my desktop to log them. Voice recorded all the notes, went to my desk, played them back and logged them. Much better workflow than using pencil/paper.

Economics of the PDA upgrade cycle

[Jack Auf]

Seems to me that at least part of the reason for slow or declining PDA sales is that PDA users tend to upgrade their PDA's far less often than they upgrade their PC, laptop, or phone.

I'm still using my Palm 505 (and I only upgraded from my Palm V to the 505 because I got a great deal on it used from a co-worker) , My wife has been using my old Palm III for ages. A close friend uses a handspring he's had for years.

Almost none of my associates have a PDA released within the last year. Conversely, nearly everyone I know has a PC or Mac and phone purchased within the last 18 months. Electronics sales are typically based on a 12-18 month upgrade cycle. If PDA users are going 2-3 or more years between upgrades you can see why Sony is pulling out of the market.

palm C

[bloosqr]

I got a Palm C recently and have found it invaluable for (2) things

(1) Scheduling (this is should be obvious) but having something small and on your person that you can carry w/ you which you can make sure you have no schedule conflicts w/ potential meetings etc

(2) 802.11b. It is pretty easy to get some sort of wireless access "somewhere" in a major city. You can get "ssh" for the palm and can log in to an machine remotely from whereever you are on a palm pilot.

It *is* a shame

[Anonymous Coward]

My Palm IIIxe has served me well since I bought it several years ago. It does a few things (note taking, appointment recorder, address book, scientific/simple calculator) and does them well.

I don't need or want a cell phone, so a phone is useless bloat and expense. Besides, it's easier to read on the larger PDA screens.

I don't want to browse the web on a PDA. Heck I don't even download mail into my PDA since its easier to read on a full screen monitor. I don't play music on my PDA. I have a RIO CD/MP3 player that stores more songs and handles song management far better than any PDA or cell phone. Why should I pay the expense of these bloated and poorly implemented features on a cell phone/modern PDA.

PDAs went wrong when they tried to be everything to everyone. They aren't. But they are good at what they're good at. You can get some fairly advanced calculators for under $40 these days. There's absolutely no reason why something like the Palm IIIxe couldn't be made for under $50. At that price point, these PDAs would be as common as calculators.

evolving

[krokodil]

They are not finished, they are evolving. There is that much gizmoz you can carry on you. I have PDA, phone and iPod (plus walled, bluetooth headset). I have to carry all this stiff on my and charge it.

This calls for combining functions to decrease number of devices. Ideally all 3 (PDA, iPod and Phone) should be the same device.

It is going in this direction, but not quite there yet. My Clie could play MP3, but battery life and storage size is too small. My iPod could work as address book, but there is no way to edit data on it - only view. My cell phone have some PDA functions, but due to small screen and most importantly poor keyboard they are not really useful.

PDAs will change. Surprise!

[kitzilla]

The technology and the marketplace is changing. PDAs will, too. Surprise!

I've really enjoyed PDAs over the past few years, but This Tungsten C is probably my last. What *I* use my PDA for is keeping track of my contacts and appointments. I also use it for brief emails when there is access to WiFi.

But enhanced cellphones really do this job BETTER. I can dial or message my contacts straight from the addressbook, and there's one less device to carry.

The article is right that PDAs will survive, but I think they'll find new users. As they become available with hard drives, PDAs could become portable (and continuously update-able) manuals, databases, order entry devices, etc. Heavy messaging belongs on small laptops. Contact management and appointments get shunted to cellphones.

PDAs end up being networked business devices: information terminals for people who need portability but aren't doing much content creation. That's the province of laptops and tablet computers, which will get lighter and more powerful. Cellphones are the communications platform (group calendaring is a communications feature). I think most people will prefer their entertainment to be on a dedicated device like an iPod. Who wants to be interrupted by the boss while you're listening to music or watching streaming video? Keep that crap on another box.

Someone mentioned note-taking. Heavy note-taking, such a meeting minutes, is content creation. Use a laptop. I think voice recognition will fill the need for post-it type entries. Dictate to your cellphone, and it gets recorded or dumped to text. MUCH better than Graffiti or a small keyboard, huh?

Apple saw this coming. They were right not to bring Newton 2 to market, cool as I'm sure it would have been.

American PDA market not indicative of world market

[base_chakra]

The American PDA market is not indicative of the PDA market worldwide, but the article only sites a decline in US sales as evidence of the decay of the platform's popularity.

The definition of 'PDA' they offer is similarly limited, as it fails to acknowledge the growing trend in PDAs, which are becoming increasingly like sub-subnotebooks, except for these key differences: PDAs generally don't rely on mechanical discs, PDAs run exclusive operating systems, PDAs are instant-on devices, and typically PDA software is utilitarian and low-maintenance. Whether one characterizes these differences as advantages or disadvantages compared with the capabilities of a notebook or subnotebook differentiates the market.

Extrapolating the reasoning used in the article, one could also claim that personal media players are preemptively obsoleted by subnotebooks, but even from a price and usability standpoint alone we know this not to be the case.

I miss my 200LX

[TheSHAD0W]

I don't know what the PDA market has been aiming at these past few years, but they sure as hell missed ME. All I wanted was my little HP 200LX. For those of you who aren't familiar with it, it was an IBM XT the size of a large pocket calculator. It had some nice simple utility software, address book/calendar/etc, and it ran many IBM PC programs just fine. It'd run for weeks on a pair of lithium AA batteries. The QWERTY keyboard was tiny but I could type pretty quickly on it. Combined with a 10M flash disk, I was very happy with the little bugger, and was saddened when they discontinued it.

So what do we have now? We have Palm-type PDAs, with no keyboard and which are a pain in the ass to use; and we have machines running Windows CE that burn through a set of batteries in a matter of hours. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

Can't someone please bring back a gizmo based on the 200LX's concept? Say, based on a 386SX, running Windows 3.1?

Re:I miss my 200LX

[SomeOtherGuy]

Everything has been downhill since the 200LX. It is funny that it had more features and a better form factor than anything that has come since.

PDA's Won't Die... but their Focus Has To Shift

[bcs_metacon.ca]

Market research consistently shows that people who by cell phones want cell phones, not PDAs, and the fact that a phone may have PDA-like features isn't a consideration for them. Ditto digital music players. But people who buy PDAs now want those other features incorporated. They may still be primarily PDAs, but the added features (even if seldom used), are a draw for potential PDA buyers.

The problem lies in the essential contradiction between what makes a good phone (small, easy and fast to use, traditional key layout), what makes a good digital mustic player (small, dead-simple interface), and what makes a good PDA (light, good screen, touch-screen interface) -- there's no viable way to make a really satisfying device that covers all those things (the Treo 600 is slightly too large to be a good phone, and slightly too small to be a good PDA, and has poor battery life for a music player).

Most PDA users are sick of carrying three devices to cover those three basic needs... I know that I already dislike carrying a cell-phone and PDA, and refuse to get an iPod on the grounds that I already have enough to carry around (that and the fact they can't play Ogg/Vorbis...yet...). But the perfect device hasn't arrived... and when it does, it will be more PDA than phone or music player (at least for me).

And really, at some point, digital music players that can handle your contacts, or phones that you can read e-books on, become PDAs in the end.

Shrewd Sony business

[Anonymous Coward]

What do they care if the PDA market withers? It would actually offer a tactical blow to Microsoft by amputating part of its OS business. Hmm, what would be affected? PocketPC would die instantly, and Windows CE, Windows Embedded would probably suffer, not gain.

nine months, eh?

[vena]

are you ready for it to break? just judging by personal experience and the experience of everyone i know who's had one, your sidekick is past due for a catastrophy.

one of my friends has had his sidekick replaced *four* times already. i'm going to wait for 2.0 before i try one again.

Re:nine months, eh?

[Digital11]

I'm on my 5th Sidekick... And it needs to be replaced because the scrolwheel stopped working the day after I got it. The problem is that they refuse to send 'new' Sidekicks and insist on refurb's that aren't properly tested... Every refurb I've gotten back has had something wrong with it.

However.. I'm willing to put up with it because the Sidekick is the ultimate way to be wired everywhere. Email + AIM anywhere (and well integrated with a decent keyboard) is a dream come true. I can type 30 WPM on my SK, most of my friends on AIM can't tell the difference between when I'm on my SK or my pC except for the AutoCaps.

All in all, if the Sidekick hardware was more reliable, there wouldn't be a better phone for geeks out there.

Re:nine months, eh?

[akac]

Ultimate? No. The SideKick is a toy. A nice toy...one I do like. But its a toy. Its like saying that Barbie digital camera is the ultimate in consumer photo.

The XDA II (not the original XDA which I hate), the Motorola MPX (not the MPx 200), or the HP 6300. Those are ultimate phones. Even better than the SE 900 because they are FULL PDAs that can run thousands of software apps. 128MB of RAM. 400 Mhz processor. Bluetooth. Digital camera for those times I want a pic and didn't think to bring my real camera. Works with my Mac or PC. I wish it was EDGE enabled, but I find GPRS just fine or with its SDIO enabled slot, Wifi at a hotspot is great.

Now that's the ultimate - as of now. In 6 months, it'll be something new :)

A resounding yes.

[jwcorder]

The market has a few more years left in it if the price point for mainstream PDAs fall below a hundred bucks. People will want it for the touch screen capabilities and the fact that I don't really care to have a cellphone that does a million other things as much as I care that my cellphone works.

In the end, the PDA has lost it's niche and will be moved onto the shelf with the Casio Electronic address books.

As an added note, every time a question like this is posted, I always think of that scene in Back to the Future II where Marty shows those kids how to use the High Noon(?) game. They respond with a "You mean you have to use your hands? This game SUCKS!".

More a decline in PDAs available.

[Inoshiro]

A PDA is a satalite computing device. You use it for quick updates and little else, typically. Its major use is that you can pull it out quickly from a pocket and check your contacts, todo list, and more! On my Palm, for example, I can pull out the application Due Yesterday and check my GPA in all my classes, what assignments are due, etc.

People may say, "hey, why use a Palm when you can use a cell phone or laptop?"

I also have a cell phone that claims to have PDA support. Unless you own a P800 or a P900, the interface on a cellphone is too clunky. Graffiti or the recognizer on a PocketPC will beat the shit out of the tap entry methods that cellphones use. The major cons of the cellphone are that the interface is crap, there isn't a large library of extension software, and it's not easy to sync with my PC.

The cons of a laptop are just as serious. First, they cost about 3-4x the price of even the most fancy 500$ Palm units with built in cameras. They don't really fit in my pocket, either. Even if they could, chances are I wouldn't be able to whip it out and hit a button and have the unit power up in less than 1 second like a Palm does. I'm always having to use a large physical keyboard, even if I'm not seated at a desk or table with a laptop. And chances are I'll have to deal with Windows, unless Apple starts making the units, as Linux doesn't tend to work on a laptop without much messing around. For all the effort, I'd rather have the smaller unit which costs less and Just Works (TM).

Plus, with Bluetooth, my Palm can sync its contacts with the cellphone, control it for outgoing dialing, use it for sending SMS, etc, while it's in my pocket. The PDA interface is much more flexible and has a much larger screen real estate, so it's like I've upgraded my phone without making it into something the size of a brick!

So why choose something that doesn't have these size, speed, and cost benefits? I don't get it.

No there is a limit

[wombatmobile]

mobile phone manufactures kept upping the resolution on cell phones screens while increasing their size centimeter by centimeter.

The major limitation of cell phones in that regard is that people want them to be truly portable, so they have to fit in shirt pockets. This constraint means we aren't likely to see phones with a screen size larger than 5 centimeters (2 inches) deployed on any sort of mass scale.

Despite the name, PocketPC is too big to fit in a shirt pocket. But its 9cm (3.5 inch) screen makes the device suitable for applications that mass market phones just can't cut, no matter how many pixels can be squeezed into a 5cm display.

What are those applications? Some mapping applications, some Location Based Solutions applications, some kinds of documents viewing to name some.

I don't have any experience with pornography, but there may be some kinds of pornographic content that work better on a 3.5 inch screen than a 2 inch screen.

Usability Insufficient for Casual Users

[tyen]

PDAs have saturated the market for users willing to dedicate a substantial amount of effort to overcoming their usability issues. This is a market ripe for Apple to pick up, because the market of casual users is still untapped.

Someone else already related how when the battery goes, today's PDAs reset themselves. Glaring usability issue for casual users. I've heard this same complaint from my non-technical friends who tried a PDA, then ditched them in favor of paper and pen. When you are trying to woo people away from an intimate routine in their daily life, at first it is sufficient to offer something that addresses the needs of people trying to solve scalability problems with their routines, like the consultant in this thread who has hundreds of contacts they have to keep up with on a monthly basis, or the poster in the healthcare field who needs to tote around a small cart of books in their hands. The PDA companies have been selling into business users for the most part, and to continue their growth they have to crack the casual user market.

Business users tend to be willing to put up with a lot that casual users will not. If a business user perceives that they obtain an edge with a particular product or service, they will invest the effort necessary to overcome the idiosyncracies to achieve that edge. Casual users will not, because the product or service is less integral to the happiness of their lives.

That you have to purchase third party applications before you can obtain seamless linking between your day timer and address book drives up the barrier to adoption by casual users. This is what leads to the perception that PDAs are nothing more than DayTimers for gadget freaks. In their default, out of the box configuration, they merely transfer the manual activities of a DayTimer onto an electronic system. That's like asking a company to adopt a computerized accounting system, only to have an army of clerks still manually reconcile accounts instead of hooking into an OFX interface.

Just shrinking the form factor and the price misses the entire point of trying to capture the casual user market.

More than ten years on after the introduction of the original Apple Newton MessagePad, I'm still surprised that neither Palm nor Microsoft have adopted the soups and slots style architecture of the NewtonOS. Today, RDF and XML could be used to implement a similar data presentation architecture, making it more useful outside of the PDA as well. More important than the technical contributions of the Newton however, were some of the marketing insights that were associated with the technical implementation.

The realization by the Newton team that most PDA applications would be relatively Unix-like (small, purpose-built applications) was spot on. The key marketing insight was that for a thriving user base and developer base to grow up around the platform, it had to be technically feasible to organically mold the user experience. It had to be easy and seamless to add functionality for example, to the out of the box address book. Or if you had to replace the address book with a more powerful address book implemented in a completely different way, it had to be easy for other developers to access the new data fields the new address book supports.

Today on PalmOS, there is one-way sharing of data fields. Address and date book replacements (the only way to extend functionality of the built-in applications is to replace them wholesale) can manipulate the built-in data fields, but it requires a separate contract negotiation with the individual developer of the new application (or reverse engineering) to obtain the formats for the additional data fields so that you could use it in yet another application.

The network effects of applications and more importantly

Re:Usability Insufficient for Casual Users

[Anonymous Coward]

Today on PalmOS, there is one-way sharing of data fields. Address and date book replacements (the only way to extend functionality of the built-in applications is to replace them wholesale) can manipulate the built-in data fields, but it requires a separate contract negotiation with the individual developer of the new application (or reverse engineering) to obtain the formats for the additional data fields so that you could use it in yet another application.

Your whole post is wrong, but this is the key point of it... and the wrongest part.

All file formats are available for download. And always have been.

Re:Usability Insufficient for Casual Users

[tyen]

The PDB format is well-documented, and yes even the built-in applications' field formats are documented, but have you ever tried to decode say, DateBk4's extended fields, or how SuperNames stores links to other records in other applications? The last time I looked at their EULA's by the way, they would frown if you reverse-engineered those extended fields or proprietary record linking formats, and used what you learned in your own application without asking them first. So even if it was technically feasible to obtain the formats, the marketing insight to focus upon the data and make it interchangeable amongst applications as a system-level property, rather than an application-level property, is lacking. If this was wrong as you assert, then please explain why third-party applications use hacks like storing extended information in separate PDBs, specially formatted content in note fields, and proprietary record linking formats.

oh that's easy enough :)

[vena]

the sidekick can't be used with any other service. problem... solved?

Re:oh that's easy enough :)

[NewWaveNet]

Yeah, T-Mobile has exclusive distribution here in the states. I use the T-Mobile Desktop software to backup the contents of my Sidekick, which I could then HotSync to my Palm....ahh, how useless that would be :-)

Yeah, but...

[Stephen Maturin]

One reason I like my PDA (and as I'm sure others will point out) is that I can use it as a portable library of e-books. Plus, being able to play a game of solitaire while sitting on the crapper is a big plus (just don't tell anyone you're going to the toilet for some solitaire!)
But the main reason I have for keeping it seperate from my phone (besides screen size) is this: I DON'T HAVE TO PAY A MONTHLY FEE TO USE MY PDA!
Why does it seem that more devices like this which can be purchased once and used without a monthly charge are being edged out by cheap, tatty phones and the like that require service agreements? Who the hell NEEDS a phone with a million features (PDA, camera, video mail, etc) when all one really needs is a phone that lets you place and receive calls?

Re:Yeah, but...

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, I look at it this way:

-If you are going to pay for cell phone service anyway, and you want a PDA as well, you don't really lose anything by purchasing a PDA with cell phone capabilities and paying a monthly fee for the cell phone connectivity.

Perhaps you only need a phone that can place and receive calls, but I get a heck of a lot of functionality out of my SE P800 which does have PDA capability, a camera, video mail, etc. For example, I never really thought I'd use the camera much, but I find myself using it more and more for work-related purposes, and just pure convenience. Sure, my Canon G3 digital camera produces a far superior picture, but there are times when I just need a quick photo of something and the phone is the most convenient way of getting that.

Now, to be fair, it's neither the cheap nor tatty phone that you were describing, so you may have been speaking of cheaper "quasi-PDA" phones with less functionality.

I used to own seperate a seperate Handspring Visor, and a Nokia cell phone. It was an inconvenience to always carry both around, so I usually didn't. I don't have that problem anymore. When a new model is released that has WiFi capability, I'll have a device which is essentially a "micro-laptop" - which is the perfect tool for me (I have fast desktop machines at work and at home, so little need for a conventional laptop).

N.

Re:Yeah, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't have to pay service fee on cellphones either, if you don't want to make phone calls with it.

Re:Yeah, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually own a cell phone and don't have to pay a monthly fee for recieve calls or messages, just buy a "rechargable card" sometimes (two 10$ cards for a year are enough) if i wish to place calls.

Re:Yeah, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wholeheartedly agree about using PDAs for reading. I've had a Visor Neo for a couple of years now, and I only replaced my first PDA, a Visor Delux, because I dropped it on a tile floor and killed it. I like the interface of the organizational tools much better than on my cell phone, and I also prefer playing games on the Visor, especially as I don't do action games but rather puzzle and card games.

The most important thing for me in a handheld, and the reason I bought one in the first place, is to have a large selection of reading material available at any time. I like the screen size and the fact that it fits fairly comfortably in my hand. Reading on a cell phone would be pretty hellish, I think.

I understand that my (and others) disinterest in upgrading is part of the decline in PDA sales, but I hope that some (hopefully Palm OS-based) models that can synch with a PC will continue to be available until some other (inexpensive) kind of tool for reading/organizing/playing comes down the pike. The dedicated e-book readers I've seen are much too large and clunky for my taste--I want something I can slip in my purse or pocket.

FWIW, when I first got my initial Visor, I thought I wanted extra functionality, so I bought a modem springboard and a camera springboard, but after the first year I rarely ever used either of them. I'm only vaguely aware of where they are now. SO, I agree also with whoever said extra features and higher prices may inhibit sales of PDAs. As much as it would be cool to have a color screen or wireless connectivity, I'm not willing to pay the price for those features.

Re:Yeah, but...

[tommyboyprime]

Personally, I too use separate devices. I have a phone that lets me make calls (with almost no other features) and an old Axim 5 PPC. I like to read and storing 30 or so books on a CF card takes almost no space. I vastly prefer to read ebooks because I just dont want the clutter of books around the apartment. Copies of the books are on my HD so if I want to re-read something I just load it on my PPC. I read a lot of magazines and science fiction and find it very convenient to just lug around a book when my PPC fits in my pocket.

Indeed.

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

I think the PDA makers have been very dumb not to go agressively for the under-$100 category. The Palm Zire 21 is the only current model there, and quality control has been horrible. If somebody would make a reliable, mono screen PalmOS PDA with decent memory, better input than cell phones and good connectivity through an affordable companion cellphone model, it would sell if marketed right.

Re:Indeed.

[sfled]

The Palm Zire 21 is the only current model there, and quality control has been horrible.

Yup. Bought the Zire 21 ($69 - $30 rebate) for $39, it died after 6 months. Went back to my Palm IIIx Warhorse.

In their current form factor... yes.

[phatcat625]

Franklin sold the Rex form factor to Xircom who sold out to Intel. Intel discontinued production of the Rex PDA almost immediately. This pda was the size of a PC card and would be the perfect form factor for a PDA. I believe people would buy more PDAs if they weren't so damn huge (and expensive).

SideKick rocks!

[LinuxGeekMobile]

I couldn't agree with you more. I love my SideKick (that I'm using to post this reply), and frequently have PDA owners drooling over it. This is especially true in the MANY circumstances where I whip it out to google for something, check the weather or traffic-cams before hitting the road, check online prices while at a computer-show, etc. About the only problems with it, really aren't problems with IT, but problems with T-Mobile! You can't install non-T-Mobile ringtones. You can't install non-T-Mobile software. I use my AIM on it all the time, but many of my friends only use YahooIM... someone already wrote a Y!I'm client for it (check freshmeat), but you have to be a registered developer to be able to install it!

iQue.

[Hooya]

i had an old palm. i mean really old. like, palm pro or some such. i think it was the second PDA model Palm made, back when it was a part of 3com.

it was nice at first. i was putting in memos, notes, appointments, grocery lists (the wife would input the list on the desktop and when i would sync it, i knew what to get at the grocery store) etc. but after a while the novelty wore off and it has been sitting in the pile with other gadgets.

recently, someone gave me an iQue as a gift. it's a palmOS based GPS by garmin. i gotta say, i don't care much for the PDA as much as the marrige between a PDA and a GPS. it absolutely rocks! it does voice navigation, turn by turn navigation, and other things you would expect from the latest generation consumer GPS device. but having the palm interface to the GPS is beautiful. i had a regular hand held GPS from garmin. my biggest peeve was that the screen was too small and input using 5-6 buttons were a pain (you couldn't type it in, you had to scroll thru the letters to input anything). but with the palm, you get to write it in.

i've never had an in-dash GPS but i can imagine that iQue would be better since with an in-dash system, you have to be in the car to input the data. with the iQue, you can input appointments and put in the waypoint at the same time. when it comes time for the appointment, the address is already there. ie, you could be away from your car, doing the things you do, and plan where you want to go right then and there. it's a beautiful combo.

i usually have some mp3's in the thing and it does a beautiful job of muting the audio when the voice prompts.

it is a little bulky but fits nicely in the shirt pocket. i haven't been this happy with a toy in a long time.

now, back to the point, i think with palm and other PDAs, the novelty and the status symbolism has gone bye bye. the small screen (compared to a laptop) is a huge impediment for working with documents pretending the PDA is a more mobile replacement for a computer. the only hope for it to survive, is to have other real world 'device' like functionality. that would work because a 'device' typically has a lesser interface and the palm interface would be a great improvement (just like it was a huge improvement going from the old 5 button garmin to the palm based garmin). but the windowsCE mindsed of trying to create a mobile computer with a PDA is not going to work.

Reading texts...

[Lostman]

I have one of the tungsten e series of palms that my wife got me for christmas to replace my "outdated palm" I was using.

Its very pretty.

I use it for the same thing I use my old palm (the battery powered one that I loved so much that lasted days) - I read ebooks nonstop. The current palm has to be charged every 4-5 hours, which kinda makes using it for reading suck.

Honestly, I dont really do anything else with it. Certainly not enough to warrant the price that was payed...

YES

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been involved in the cmoputer industry for over 15 years and I have never remotely even considered buying one of these things, I do not see any reason why I would EVER need one. The success of them thus far truly escapes me.

Death?

[ChozCunningham]

The PDA has been foiled by the popularity of using networked data. Considering "competition" is squeezing the Clie out of the US Market, that doesn't sound like the demise of a product, just of one of it's most expensive brands.

The PC is a pandemic product because there is at least one thing it can do to help most anybody. The PDA, so far, is not like that.

PDA's have always been only popular in specialized markets. Executives, geeks, specialized business app users, etc. The "killer app" has never existed, although people have speculated on "agent" software. Combine this function with always online connectivity, invisible open-standard syncing, and throw in enough features that one will appeal to *anybody* and the PDA will rise like it never has before.

Totally. My Nokia does everything my Palm does.

[drewzhrodague]

I used to be a palm zealot. Great design, initially. 68k, 1 meg of RAM, and always on. Thousands of programs appeared on the net for free. I used it for a calendar, and to schedule appointments, and to keep track of my time, and where I was. I used the address book rather violently -- and picked-up hundreds of contacts (imported from my old Casio BOSS, and collected through the years). I also downloaded neat programs, and experimented with development. Truly a neat system 1997, and ahead of it's time. (Of course, I drooled over the Apple Newtons!)

Connectivity is really the thing for me, being able to transfer data/programs easily, as well as to other people is something I need to do. I admit it, I'm a geek, and rely on this stuff. The Palm's serial port, while great, required a special cradle, and even with two, it's still a pain. Don't get me wrong, AvantGo, and the whole syncing thing is great, especially if you spend time on trains, busses, airports, or meetings. Infra-red is a really great technology, and I'd like to see it's use more widely expanded, to include tv-remotes as well as whatever other standards are out there for transcieving via infra-red (ie IrDA, etc).

Bluetooth really takes the cake on connectivity, except for it's bloated stack, and silly implimentation. Wi-Fi or soft-modem technology would be a great alternative. Using bluetooth, I can synchronize my Nokia 3650 without even taking it out of my pocket - nuts a-frying be damned. This is something far more attractive than even more icky cables, and easier than pulling-out the device and pointing it at something.

Having a Nokia 3650, I take pictures all the time, so it's nice to bluetooth them at my workstation, or drag them from my phone onto my desktop. I can do this while my phone is charging in the other room!

All of the features I used to use my Palm for, work on my phone. Plus, I can take pictures, and make calls. This makes me not wonder why Sony stops making PDAs. Why do we need an additional device? Now, having more computing power, that's one benefit, but for special applications, and extended uses, a full-on PDA might make more sense.

It's not the color screen

[wirefarm]

My mobile (Japanese PHS system) has a color screen plus all the usual bells and whistles and I swear I only need to charge it every week or so. Granted I don't get a lot of calls, but at least the standby time is great. It must be the different system.

As for PDAs, I started with a Newton years ago and up through a handspring and a clie, all of which I gave away after a while.

Now I just carry a little Moleskine notebook for PDA-type functions.
Really.
I'm not a Luddite or anti-technology, but the benefit of having a thing full of notes that will never be obsolete or need batteries is strong. (Don't worry, they're overpriced, too, satisfying that "spend" urge. )

For backups, I scan pages that I want to keep. I've even emailed scans to coworkers. It works well, as I have one of those scanners with a "single button scan" setup.

It never crashes and if I lose it, I'm only out the 15 bucks for a new one.
My writing is better, too, as I use the notes I make in the book as a reference when I type it into my powerbook later.
I really love not having to charge it.
No wall-wart to buy funky European adapters for.
Great tactile experience: Good paper that you can use with a fountain pen. It's just the right size. The strap makes a satisfying "snap" sound. It's black. I even sketch occasionally.
For input, my current choice is a sterling silver Parker 75. $40 from an antique shop.

My PDAs were never this useful. No phone interface will ever be this useful, though a camera phone could easily take photos of the pages in the book and mail them to your regular email account or even to your blog as appropriate.

There's also the "cafe coolness" factor. I never felt like really putting thoughts and impressions into my PDA. I do with the notebook. Even an occasional watercolor, though it hasn't replaced my Nikon. It's a pleasure to sit at a cafe and actually WRITE something.

Of course, it doesn't do audio or video, but I have an iPod that I rarely carry anymore and a PowerBook that shows video full-screen when I want that, which never happens to be when I'm out somewhere where I wouldn't have my laptop.

Re:It's not the color screen

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I have a Moleskine too but recently upgraded to a refurb Toshiba e740. The reason? You try picking up and replying to email using pen and paper. What do you do with your setup? Write a letter and then scan it to send later?

There are things about the e740 I hate. It's buggy and I have to watch the battery life. It has crashed on me. But it has news synced into it with Avantgo plus 3 ebooks (which come in handy on the 1/2 hr underground trip to and from work each day) and it allows me to read and have emails on hand for reference (e.g. directions, times) whenever I need. With the wireless capability, I can jump onto hotspots on the fly and top up my little cache of data free. By comparison, I pay through the nose to do the same with my smartphone (MPx200 on Orange GPRS). Finally (and as others have observed), if I use my smartphone for any length of time, it's dead and I can't make or take calls.

Pen and paper is great if all you want to do is jot down notes and numbers, a smartphone is great if you don't mind it eating the batteries and can afford the GPRS bills. If you want to pull data into it and use that data for more than say 20 mins a day, neither really cuts it.

You bought the wrong PDA.

[Moderation abuser]

Palm V, Palm Vx an Sony Clie (basically a Palm)

I would agree, the machines you bought are gimmicks, damned near useless for any serious work. I on the other hand recognised that the Palm style machines are executive toys and bought a Psion S5 instead and got real work done on it for 7 years before it failed. The line was discontinued by that point. Then I got a Nokia 9210, basically the successor to the S5, a Psion Series 6 built into the phone and I continue to get real work done on it today and I fully expect to get another 5 years worth of real work done on it.

Tap, tap, tap, tap...

[MsGeek]

(That's the sound of me taking notes on my refurbed Palm m125. Or playing Mahjongg solitare on it, take your choice.)

I personally don't know what I'd do without my Palm. I use it basically to do everything I used to do in a paper and pencil organizer, and the difference between a 5 pound DayRunner and a 6 ounce m125 is pretty obvious. It's nice that you can also do other things like play cute little games on it and have an entire dictionary and thesaurus on it too.

If any of you reading this are in the Western US, Fry's is selling a Palm IIIxe in their stores for $30 after rebate. I have had good luck with these factory refurbed units. The XE has 8MB of Flash which, as you know, is split between files and programs and the OS. This device can have its OS upgraded to PalmOS v.4.1, which is pretty damn modern. You don't get the SDIO/SD/MMC slot I get, but that is a minor convenience.

Actually if you want to spend $80 you can get a a refurbed m125 like mine through Fry's online presence, Outpost.Com. I don't know if they are available in stores, but you can ask a salesperson to look up SKU number 3748726 on one of the machines on the floor. I like mine.

Why should I buy a new PDA....

[SwedishChef]

when my 4-year-old Handspring Edge does everything I need a PDA for so well. Plus, if I need to replace it I just go to Ebay and buy another one for $50. The Achille's Heel of the high tech industry is the "upgrade" cycle because if people fail to upgrade then those products will fail. Unfortunately for the PDA industry there is not much need to upgrade because the basic niche the early units filled is still the same niche. And anyway... what is so bad about sellling only a billion dollars of PDAs a year?

Yes!

[The MESMERIC]

The vast majority of people I know who bought PDA haven't used past the 3rd day of playing.
So they keep telling me not to waste my money.
I am talking a handful of people here (boss, neighbour, friend, sister, cousin, etc)
But hey I want to play too! :(

Now most PDA's run Windows so that is a no-no.
Sharp Zaurus are difficult to get in the UK you could use an import service but you get no pound sign - having said that I noticed you can't get a pound sign here too

Can the owners tell me why? (you bunch of disgusting outsourcerers)

... Anyway, back to the main subject I was gonna buy the extremely expensive Psion Netbook
but the Linux-PDAs wave saved me from burning many-pound-sterlings unecessarily.
The Malay version more than doubled in price so am not going there ... site is off air anyway.

Now this seems like a tempting and very humble solution. It runs Linux, so a nice toy to play and learn.

star trek technology

[CAIMLAS]

It's my personal opinion that PDAs do not serve much more than a personal organizer or a toy for 90% of the people out there. Most people do not need a personal organizer, let alone most of the other functions on a PDA.

PDA input is awkward still in most cases. We don't have voice input unless you're recording audio - and a specialized device is still better at that. Handwriting recognition is finickey at best, and chic-key keyboards are only marginally better.

It would be my suspicion that PDAs were so wildly popular for a couple years there because of Star Trek and its tricorders - people wanted those nifty tricorders, but jumped the gun a bit. However, PDAs don't have enough practical use for the common person. Even for business use, PDAs seem to be a niche market for those that are more into technology. A pad of paper is often less hastle and more convenient for most folks, what with battery concerns, keeping it from falling on the floor, etc.

I don't think PDAs will become truely useful for most people until they become the "ultimate information tool" with little tinkering - a digital keychain, of sorts. Use it to store your unlock codes for your car, use it as a TV remote, use it as a dictionary, use it with GPS and for referencing city maps, and use it to communicate.

I'm sure there are a lot of interesting, truly useful features which will crop up in the next couple of years. Current phones seem to be going in that general direction, but at htis point they've just got gimicky features - much like the first PDAs were themselves - such as cameras. The market might very well kill itself off (due to the quickly-evolving cell phone networks), but if not, I suspect highly-integrated "communicators/tricorders" will become all the more niche, while most people stick to the phone + camera.

Re:star trek technology

[Leynos]

Use it to store your unlock codes for your car, use it as a TV remote, use it as a dictionary, use it with GPS and for referencing city maps, and use it to communicate.

You can already fo most of those with add on software. (See freeware palm and palmgear for examples). The peoblem is not limited functionality. The problem is that Palm don't nmake people aware of this functionality in the first place.

Re:Handtops--FlipStart, MySQL and SmartSuite Combo

[davidsyes]

Links: inspiring: http://slashdot.org/articles/04/06/13/1325218.shtm l?tid=100&tid=137&tid=193

Others: http://www.flipstartpc.com/

What you have to go through to get a point across: http://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/beta

Vibrant/active SmartSuite users community:

http://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/ssforum.nsf?OpenData ba se
and:
http://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/ssforum.nsf/ SortedAllT hreadedweb?OpenView&ExpandView&RestricttoCategory= Approach

Others:

Approach Users: http://www.xpertss.com/

Approach users: http://jabrown.customer.netspace.net.au/approach/i ndex.htm

FileMaker Pro http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_title= FileMaker-Pro-Gets-Overhaul&story_id=23323&categor y=databases#story-start
---
I watched the flash of the Flipstart. It show, clearly, ms win ce (wince/twitch) on the screen.

Well, maybe hardware manufacturers should REALLY start to "wince", since so many are still reluctant or intransigent about openly and actively adapting their roadmaps to quickly uptake the Linux kernel and Open Source software to move their hardware.

I am sure the cost of the wince-inducing win-ce costs must be a "heart-stop" to Flashtart. The cost of their production and development can dramatically come down if they appoint some pre-tested Linux/C/C++/Java developers who steer or guide or mentor their own developers. The cost of having a team of Linux-oriented developers could be something like granting them free devices for remaining on the team as a consultant of sorts. Maybe the retainer could include an opportunity to be paid, hired, or given more challenging work so as to build their individual resumes.

These companies need to become more creative and more adaptive and less schizoid about "oooh, or proprietary code... our investors will "flip-OUT"". No, such investors my be needing to be flipped-off and flung out, if they stodgily, intransigently hold back a company from taking a critical but necessary leap of faith.

If the leap of faith is unpalatable to the existing structure, then they should spin off one with the right to fold it back in once it proves itself as a proof of concept. If it bombs, at least it is outside of the main structure and can be gradually deprecated and suppressed if it is embarrassing enough. Otherwise, to just run one train and let it consume all the fuel is like refusing to offer a higher-speed, alternate express car between the regular runs. All they need is a spur and a shunt, and a diversion of resources to an open, but less-consuming set of eyes, assists, and sneak previews and some enticements plans.

An ideal I have to help get images and spreadsheets out of tiny and therefore almost useless PDAs is to make the PDA project the data to a receptive wall panel. The panels should run off AC, be light, carryable, and hangable. They could have an amplifier and a small Linux kernel that allows the flexi-screen to replace flatpanels. The device could act as a router or bridge or amplifier of data inputs so that multiple parties in a conference room can merge database data.

MySQL would be great tool for this, since InnoDB is transactional. People in meetings could ad-hoc create databases, run what-if scenarios, and maybe get a LOT more work done in such meetings.

Nurses and inventory personnel could move from room to room where the reception room or stockroom window itself is a smart-assed- piece of glass that reduces an undersized PDA to a mere input/conversation device that projects and receives data from a large screen.

In a fallback scenario, the device could be provided with a traditional AC adapter so it can have more oomph to deliver the images onto a standard, dark wall. So, if a stockroom has a flat surface, even the floor, the user could punch in or call up data, then project the information long enough to read i

Did PDAs ever get started?

[stefanlasiewski]

PDAs are going away? Did they ever get started?

Since the early days of these PDA devices, I have always found them to be overrated, lacking in features and too expensive for what they do.

My wife and I own two PDAs, but they both mostly collect dust. I bring mine with us on vacation so that I have easy access to a bunch of information, but that's about it.

I would love to be able to combine my PDA and Cell Phone into a single device. Basically, I want a mobile phone with the 3 basic PDA functions: Contact list, Calendar, Todo list.

However, I have never seen a model that does this well for a decent price.

I see alot of crappy devices with features I don't need: I don't need 16-million battery draining colors, I don't want a video camera in my PDA and an mp3 player is nice but not necessary.

Re:Did PDAs ever get started?

[beakburke]

samsung s56?

Pefrect for me would have been

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Remember Microsofts first attempt? I wanted one of those WinCE devices so bad. Clam shell. Built in keyboard that you could type on and with HP's 720, a great screen. My 12 inch powerbook is much larger then either the 720 or my current iPaq. My NEXT iPaq will be subsidised by being a cell phone as well. The HP h6300 when available from T-Mobile, I will probably get that. It has GSM Phone, GPRS, Bluetooth AND WiFi. It onloy has a 200 MHz OMAP processor, but reports say it does ok. It also comes with a detachable thumbboard. Initial reviews rate it very well. My hope is I would be able to use the built in BT in my mac and the PPCPE 6300 together and be able to connect whenever there is no WiFi network. Would it be counted as a PDA? Last year when I got my GPRS card, I was talking to a fellow customer who was buying a PPCPE and she said she tried it and loved it and was buying it that day. The Treo 600 is popping up everywhere. They are quite appealing. They also might not be tagged as a PDA since it is mainly a cell phone.

PDAs are simply expensive

[Maljin Jolt]

Year ago I got a second hand iPaq 3970 for 1/3 of retail price just for the fun to put linux onto it. I would never pay a full price for it, no matter how cute device it is.

So, I guess when PDA maker will price them 3-5 times less, they would have no problems to penetrate the market.

Yes, of course, WinCE sucks, too. It's clear people have no use for PDA without any usefull software. That's a moment where platform portability of F/OSS really does count.

With linux I can run almost anything what exists on big machines. I have even a tiny web server and SQL engine running on my iPaq for demonstration. Perfect linux propaganda to impress corporate nuts who are only able to sync their outlook calendar with the same model but running PocketPC.

I find this interesting

[jhylkema]

/. is largely populated by faithful, Unix-loving geeks who view anything to do with Microsoft as The Great Satan.

The Unix model of programming is to have one tool do one thing well and another to do another thing well. This is why so many text editors, etc. The Microsoft model is to have one tool with the kitchen sink and more.

Having a separate phone and PDA neatly fits the Unix model. The phone is there to make calls and can also act as a modem (Bluetooth is your friend). The PDA is for email, contacts, checkbook, notes, etc.

By contrast, smartphones represent Gatesian bloat and feature creep. They are, inevitably, a half-assed kludge of the two that do both things half-assed but neither particularly well. Usually, you end up with a PDA on a cell-phone sized screen.

Sony's failure had nothing to do with the PDA market being dead. Granted, it's not like it was in the boom days, but it's far from dead. No, Sony's latest units were huge, overpriced ($600 or so), and used their proprietary memory format that just happened to cost double or triple what the others did. Hell, the NX60 (?) had a CF slot, but it only accepted Sony's proprietary wifi adapter. A Sandisk CF wifi adapter costs on the order of $30. Sony's cost $150.

Personally, my Palm Tungsten T has all the usual PDA stuff on it (contacts, calendar, note pad, etc.) plus my checkbook, several games, and an MP3 player. Oh, and did I mention that it also has Bluetooth *and* uses industry-standard SD/MMC cards?

Score another one for open standards.

Re:I find this interesting

[hacker]

Score another one for open standards.

Almost.. but not quite.

A mostly-proprietary OS, with no documentation, no public APIs, and everything we've done to make it work with Linux, Unix, and OSX machines, has been reverse-engineered on the wire, byte-for-byte. We've even uncovered some really stupid PalmOS bugs before their own engineers caught them, by using this same methodology. We're already better at compensating for their own bugs and bad data structures in-code, than their own commercial Palm Desktop/HotSync Manager products).

Open standards are nice, but only if you embrace them fully. Palmsource does not.

Re:I find this interesting

[jhylkema]

Quoth the poster:

Open standards are nice, but only if you embrace them fully. Palmsource does not.

You have some good points, and it's easy to see where your biases are given your nick. And you are correct that it bites having to find bugs via byte-for-byte reverse engineering. One has a right to expect better from an admittedly expensive commerical product like Palm. But you'd rather have Microsoft? The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

Re:I find this interesting

[theridersofrohan]

Having a separate phone and PDA neatly fits the Unix model. The phone is there to make calls and can also act as a modem (Bluetooth is your friend). The PDA is for email, contacts, checkbook, notes, etc.

By contrast, smartphones represent Gatesian bloat and feature creep. They are, inevitably, a half-assed kludge of the two that do both things half-assed but neither particularly well. Usually, you end up with a PDA on a cell-phone sized screen.

Respectfully, I belive that you're confusing the physical and the logical layer. Unix is all about simplicity - in the logical or software layer. Unix lovers like myself are arguing that a program should do one thing and should do it well, with hooks (apis, pipes, whatever) for connectivity with other programs. Nobody (on his or her right mind) is arguing that we should have one computer to, say, use openoffice, one computer to connect to the network or one computer to listen to music. That's on the psysical layer.

Coming to PDAs, the Unix model would fit rather well: Simplicity, components, reusability small, easily maintainable programs. I actually do research on this (smameless plug). Arguing that a computer should need a separate device to connect to the network is kinda silly in my opinion. Certainly, in a traditional desktop computer, you need a network card, but it's embedded into the big grey box at your feet: You still have one big device. This is further exagerated in the mobile world: Two devices are bigger than one (usually) and physical space is at a premium when you're mobile...

Re:I find this interesting

[wolf-]

Get new cell provider, get new handheld device?
You make a very good point. Do one thing well.

I'v carried my little palm for almost 3 years now. Switched cell providers in between that time. Glad I didnt have to get a new palm device because I moved carriers.

Re:I find this interesting

[HoaryCripple]

Nobody (on his or her right mind) is arguing that we should have one computer to, say, use openoffice, one computer to connect to the network or one computer to listen to music. That's on the psysical layer.

Also respectfully, I think that you need to rethink your position. The computer does only one thing well. It runs programs.

Perl Harbor

[Anonymous Coward]

The Japanese electronics giant was defeated in the American market by increased competition and an industry-wide decline in PDA sales.

Is defeated the right word here? Because I don't think they were going head to head against anyone with their Clie. They were trying to position it as a high end Palm device but unfortunately for them the price point falls about where the low end WinCe devices lie.

a PDA isnt a gimmick

[nurb432]

What else can you stick in your pocket that will house your email, calendar, contacts and notes while it automatically synchronizes with your desktop? ( forgetting for a moment the phone/PDA things, they are just PDAs with a phone built in as far as I'm concerned, so they are the same thing really )

I don't see any 'Franklin planner' doing this ( the auto sync part is the biggest problem obviously ), and for business people, these features are important.

Sure, the feature-creep of late has become silly, but the basic concept of a PDA is not a gimmick..

no just too expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't buy a new PDA when my last one broke for one reason only,

Price

Over $400 for a wifi enabled PDA is rediculous. And who is going to buy one that doesn't have wifi?

With wifi routers being sold for as cheap as $29 why can't wifi PDA's be at elast half there current price?

Sony structured to be geek unfriendly

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony seems to be broken into three seprate region areas, Japan, America and Europe. But these three are far from being equals. Alot of the technical programming information is held only by the Japan section which tends to believe in selling close systems. So, for example, when Sony of America requests on behalf of the NetChaser the programming information on the WiFi built-in to the CLIE, they refuse.

Sony also seems to not understand the ripple effect that these types of choices have. For Sony of America to even ask for the specs, they must have seen it effecting sales or got a request for NetChaser to work from a big customer. But since Japan refused, any geeks wishing to use NetChaser (or have a simlar level of programming control of the WiFi) must get a Palm Tungsten C. So, CLIE's latest line of WiFi enabled PDAs fails to compette with Tungsten C. Then they pull out of the American market complettely for CLIE. Future growth of Sony Connect depends heavily on Americans being willing to buy ATRAC 3 device from Sony. While future models of CLIE will have one built-in, these won't appear in America. Instead, Sony seems to be betting on PlayStation Portable (a game unit instead of a PDA) encouraging Americans to buy from Sony Connect.

This is an on-going trend of treating Americans as being stupid idiots. For the Europe release of PlayStation 2, they included the YABASIC programming enviroment. For Americans, it is now a free copy of ATV 2: Offroad Fury and getting any programming enviroment requires forking over another $100 for the Linux kit.

I won't even go into detail on their abusive use of the DMCA against American ABIO programmers. The fact that they got around to doing a 180 in that specific case doesn't make me feel better about them issuing the attack to begin with.

Based on how Sony operates, I am fairly sure there is someone at the top of the company that blames America for Sony's failure to correctly market Betamax and has been trying to get America back ever since by treating them as if they couldn't program a calculator, let aless a PDA or PS2 or robot dog.

If Sony continues to market as-is products and not allow us to modify them or use them as we want then I hope they end up pulling all of their crap out of the US market.

Re:Sony structured to be geek unfriendly

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an on-going trend of treating Americans as being stupid idiots.

When I see television commercials depicting something like an SUV slowly driving up the vertical wall of a skyscraper, and those television commercials have to have a little disclaimer on-screen that says "Do not attempt," lest some buffoon try it himself in his SUV, get killed, and have his family sue the SUV maker for billions, I think the people who treat Americans as stupid idiots may just have a point.

And I AM American, though I'm one of the increasingly rare ones with common sense.

To put this post back on topic-- yes, I think standalone PDAs are finished. I had a few over the last five years, and it was just another thing to have to remember to take with me, keep charged, and keep synced to my other stuff.

Luckily, phones have adopted most PDA functions now. I've got a Sony-Ericsson T616, and it keeps all my contacts and calendar info in an unobtrusive device that fits in the change pocket of my jeans. It syncs nicely with my Mac, without me having to connect any cables or rely on proprietary sync software being installed.

free software kills fake upgrades.

[twitter]

Free software is going to eliminate vendor forced upgrades.

It's funny that you should mention a Handspring Visor that your friend had been using for years. What operating system are they using? Mine came with drivers for Windoze that worked on 98 and NT but had serious issues with 2000. I don't know if there are drivers for XP, but the trend was NO.

Kpilot, however, works and syncs great with KDE's excellent PIM programs. Interestingly enough, my Visor is going to get information from an old job that I though was lost forever. I have an old Windoze 98 backup that I'm going to sync and then move sync with KDE. I've been using it with a serial cable under Debian and my little brother had good experiences with USB stuff and Fedora Core 1. Because of this, it's more useful to me than my fancier and nicer Zaurus which is reported to work with Evolution.

I loved my Handspring and now I can love it again. It got months of service from regular AAA batteries, and worked with rechargeables AAAs. It was cheap when I bought it and I'm sure that replacements can be had for next to nothing used.

It's only a matter of time before I'll be able to easily sync the same data onto my Zaurus, but I'll still have uses for the Handspring. The Zaurus is much nicer, has a music player and can be programmed easily, but the Handspring has all of the above named advantages. Moreover, I'm more comfortable with it's input methods. The Zaurus is just a little different but that matters.

With free software, I only buy a PDA when the features of the new one clearly warrant the purchase. No one is going to be forced to buy a new gadget to get the same feature set again. Free software is making the market more honest.

Re:free software kills fake upgrades.

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators: Please note that "twitter" is a known fanatical psycophant whose obnoxious offtopic rants are legend here on Slashdot. It doesn't matter what the topic is, he'll find a way to scrape in some pointless Microsoft bashing. While nobody expects us to love Microsoft in any way, his particularly tepid style of calling anyone he replies to "troll" or "liar" or "fanboy" because he happens to disagree with whatever they're saying is well documented and should not be rewarded. If anything, twitter is the type of person that should not be part of the open source/free software community. He is an anathema to all that is good about free software.

I'm posting this so that you (the moderator) have some context to consider twitter and not mod him up whenever he posts his filler preformatted rants about installing Knoppix or whatever that unfortunately get him karma every single time and allow him to continue posting his trademark toxic crap (read on) day in and day out. You may consider this a troll - I consider it community service. And I ain't kidding.

If you're a /. subscriber, I invite you to look through some of his posting history. I guarantee that you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is more "out there" than twitter. You'll also probably notice he's got quite an AC following. Don't just read his posts, make sure you go through the replies.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check this post out. I mean, this is an article about email disclaimers, right? The parent of the post is complaining about the ads in the linked page and so on, and twitter actually goes off on a rant to blame it on Microsoft and recommend Lynx. WTF?

Here's another. In this post twitter not only calls the OP a troll but attempts to "tell it like it is" while making some vague argument about "GNU". Yes, if you're confused, you're not alone. The reply (modded +4) proceeds to simply destroy his bogus argument. You will notice he did not reply. This is what some people call "drive-by advocacy". A sort of I'll just leave you with my thoughts here and move on to the next flamebait kind of deal. In fact, he almost never replies because he knows that his fanatical arguments simply do not hold up to any sort of discussion. It's not that he's chosen the wrong cause - he's just going at it in a completely wrong way.

More? Just read though this post and the subsequent replies. I guess this stands on its own. Or these two. Or this one.

More? Bad spelling in astounding conspiracy theories, more offtopic FUD and uninformed "I'm right, look at me" rants, promptly proven wrong. Worse even, twitter wants to be RMS, apparently (that first one is a winner). I mean, really. You think?

FUD,

Organizing My PDAs or Why I Have None

[$criptah]

I've had various PDAs; none of them helped me to achieve anything. Most of them were presents that I used for roughly 2-4 weeks after receiving them. Most of the time I used the because I either had nothing to do or during boring lectures when I enterntained myself with some stupid games. With this in mind, I declared PDAs absolutely useless and decided to sell all of them. I have been PDA free for over a year and it feels good.

First of all, PDA means having one more thing that I need to use. If I want to use my cell phone, I need to get the numbers from PDA into the cell phone, if I get a new phone number via a phone call (caller ID), it means that I have to put it into my PDA. Then there is Address Book and iCal that sit on my Application folder on my Mac. I need to syncronize them with my PDA and the phone that has been out of sync with my PDA. The fun never stops. The best part of having a PDA or a cell phone that remembers numbers for you is the fact that you do not know any of the phone numbers!

I decided to cut back on automation once my mom moved into a new house. She had a new phone number that I stored in PDA. I was too freaky lazy to put it into my phone and when I lost the PDA I realized that I did not know my moms phone number. It was the first time in my life when I understood that without that damn PDA I could not call any of my friends. Fuck, that totally sucked!

I sold all my PDAs, got rid of the cell phone (the landline works just as well, thank you very much!) and decided to keep all my information on my computer via Address Book and iCal. My computer is backuped on a regular basis, therefore I am not afraid of losing important information. Moreover, now I am actually forced to memorize phone numbers and it feels great. I can call almost everybody I know without checking some freaking device. I have less things to carry in my pockets and if I am bored while riding a bus, I read.

I do not think that any of PDAs that are currently out on the market can justify their costs. The built-in cameras suck, most of the features are designed either to drain the battery or to purchase more accessories from that specific vendor. Going back to paper organizers was not for me; therefore, I decided to settle for the solution that came with my G4. It is not the best option, but it was there already. I am sure that there are certain products for Windows and *Nix that can do the same thing.

Re:Organizing My PDAs or Why I Have None

[Anonymous Coward]

My PDA's 8mb backup chip is up to date.. as of last month or so and the batteries that i pop in every now and then to get that backup have been around for over a year. I think they will last for at least another year of backups.

My Data? Briefcased onto a notebook which I need to get out of the house. I bluetooth sync a phone so I have no battery hazzles and wireless sync the notebook.

My phone has no cell-plan.

Its an instant on, $40/ebay color pda that I can toss any-time (as long as i keep the simm). The phone gets me any number fast. The notebook has the low-down and wireless from it lets me connect to most people. from the park. for free. uh, and from client-sites. Told you I needed to leave the house ;)

No Need for a PDA. not any more. Thanks Heaven!

T-mobiles pricing structure

[WhiteWolf666]

Makes me have a PDA.

I've got both a Sony Ericssion T610, and a Nokia 3650.

Both are nice phones. Both have bluetooth.

T-mobile offers unlimited web browsing for $9.99, and unlimited GPRS internet for $19.99.

Web browsing on my phone(s) is impractical. Typing e-mails (or slashdot responses) is difficult at best.

My ipaq h4150, over, does both of these tasks admirably.

I can go to metromix, and find the address of the restaurant I want. I can go to mapquest, and give someone directions.

E-mail, check. AIM, check. Carrying around the odd set of files that I may want to send via bluetooth? Check.

And if I get to an 802.11b hotspot, I can use my pda as a phone to call on FWD.

It's not a laptop, nor does it offer the funcationality of a laptop (thats why I have a powerbook). It's for when I want to do light internet enabled tasks, ANYWHERE in the U.S., (where I get reception, anyways, but thats another story), on a pocket sized unit. Maybe I'm just incompentent, but I can't type fast enough on the phone. I am more than able to use the stylus on my pocket pc, and it has improved my handwriting to boot.

(Anyone know about familiar linux on the ipaq h4150? The info on their site is sketchy, and basically says: don't try this, its hopeless)

Say what you will about the slow speed of GPRS, but 3-6 kbytes/sec is okay for many tasks.

The only thing that may cause me to change my setup is the upcoming released of the iPaq h6000 series, which t-mobile is using to replace their 'pocket pc phone' edition.

Pocket PC phone didn't have bluetooth (so no laptop connectivity (atleast without a cable, which I am unwilling to use)).

I still may not switch, however, because my Sony Ericsson has GREAT battery life, and the Nokia is just kinda cool.

The only thing that T-mobile users do need, IMHO, is an antenna amplifier, because there are just too many regions with spotty service. Around my office, in southern wisconsin, its fine. Around my home, in northwest suburban chicagoland, there are black spots here and there.

But you can't beat the price: 1000 minutes, free nights and weekends, nationwide, $39.99. Unlimited GPRS, $19.99. This includes unlimited Text, E-mail, and Picture messeging, as well.

No other carrier is even close, and I will easily make up for the cost of my $150.00 amp.

next step of evolution

[CAIMLAS]

I think the next step of PDA evolution should be to either integrate more useful things into them (IR-related tools, mostly, to interact with all those IR gadgets about today's modern environment), or for a form factor change away from the awkward square single-hand "palmtop" device.

If the second evolution, this is why: PDAs are much more powerful than the data assistants of 5+ years ago, and are even as powerful, if not more powerful than, the desktop processors of the time. They could do a Lot More than they are currently being used for - glorified contact books and notepads, with a little bit of playing cards and fooling around. Even holding a square PDA is a strain on the wrist for a prolonged period of time - it's awkward.

When I bought my laptop, I was looking for something that was ultra portable, sturdy, and had good battery life. I couldn't find anything on the market with a reasonable price which fit my needs and could still serve as a short-term-use device (ie, something I could use for a day or two, and then sync with a workstation/server, only keeping small amounts of work at a time). There is currently nothing in the market which provides a full day's worth of battery life and allows for use as a general use computing device (and by "general computing" I mean geeky shit, not Word and solitaire).

I see the technology employed in handhelds as ideal for this. The Sony Clie Communicator (to be RIP shortly, it would seem), as well as the already extinct clamshell Zaurus were steps in the right direction, I feel - but they stopped short by failing to have a 10-finger keyboard. They also cost obscene amounts of money - largely, I suspect, due to the novelty of such a device.

I imagine there's a fairly large undeveloped market for devices with 4x3 aspect ratio screens with 10-finger typeable keyboards, sturdy construction (aka, TI calculator/gameboy classic sturdy), and day-long portable use characteristics. I can imagine paying $600 for such a device personally - even if the technical specification is less than current 'cutting edge' PDAs - because there is a significant amount of functionality which is gained by having durability and full-fledged typing characteristics.

I imagine an inexpensive solidstate 'laptop'/typeable PDA/palmtop/whatever could be made for under $1000, and maybe even $600, quite reasonably and would see a fair amount of sales, considering the popularity of some similar attempts in the past - the original Libretto, the Fujitsu Lifebook P1000, and any number of others. I imagine the actual cost would be roughly 800$+, though, as demand would likely make them fairly expensive. Considering the cost of a Sony Clie peg-ux50 is $600 and comes with a built-in camera and wireless, and the Zaurus SL-C860 can be found for $700 with much more impressive statistics than the Clie. Here's what I imagine could be made for such a general fee:

- Xscale 400MHz CPU
- 96Mb RAM
- 64Mb storage
- 640x460 res screen of moderate (5"? 6"?) size
- typeable keyboard (large enough for an average person to fit a full set of hands on)
- TypeII CF and SD Card slots
- direct USB connectivity to other devices
- a microphone and an earphone jack
- a reasonably rich operating environment (I'm thinking Linux/Qtopia, as you'd be able to do actual work)
- a sturdy titanium case w/ rubber corner pads
- a 10 hour battery (which the clie communicator has)
- possibly built in wifi, or an easy way to 'perminantly' add it (so as to not require the use of a wifi CF card when a CF storage device is in use)

The basic idea here would be for an ultraportable device which wouldn't need a seperate keyboard, and could be used for a full day's worth of work on a single charge of a standard battery for actual productive work (coding, presentation, whatever). I believe that I've heard there already are similar products in Japan; they just haven't made their way over here yet in serious number.

Two things killed the PDA ...

[hackster]

[1] Commoditization. PDA's as organizers have been around as long as calculators. I had a Seiko RC-1000 Data Terminal wristwatch in the early 1980's that had similar functionality as my first Palm. What Palms first offered was easy and reliable synching with functional desktop tools. That commanded a premium, for a while. Now every product has this. The added distinction of one manufacturer's PDA over another is simply glitter -- there is nothing as solidly differentiating as the early synching features of the Palm. Call it a one trick pony, now with many diverse competitors.

[2] Risk of failure. Of the PDA's I have owned (all from Palm) one was stolen; its replacement worked for two years and then abruptly halted when I had not synched for several weeks (at the time the PalmMac synching wasn't working properly); the replacement to that one reset itself repeatedly at age 18 months (= "wiped clean", but no big deal then, I wasn't relying on it any more). I now use a spiral ring notebook. Same size, almost as functional, and more reliable.

Without either of these "features" there is no justification for a PDA's cost. And, as apparently evident to Sony, no sufficient profit margin to remain in the business.

Security, multi-use, jogging

[Anonymous Coward]

I never have to worry that data on my Palm Tungsten might leak out, via Bluetooth or a cellular network.

I can look up info on my Palm while talking on my cellphone.

I can carry my LG 5250 cellphone easily in my hand while I jog.

I can hand someone my cellphone to use and not worry if they wander into another room to talk.

Recently, I dropped off my cellphone at the cell provider store to get the firmware updated. I'd certainly not feel confident doing that with all my PDA data on it.

The right tool for the job

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a tiny Motorola cell phone with no gimmicks or doodads aside from being a wireless modem. A Dell Axim PDA I bought for $250 on Ebay that I use daily. And a Dell Latitude LS subnotebook if I need more juice.

The phone is perfect for me: tiny, loooong battery life. For phone use it's perfect, slips in a shirt pocket and weighs nothing, goes 5 days without a charge.

The PDA carries all my contact info and schedules, a CF full of about 100 ebooks I'm in the process of reading, 3 states for TomTom GPS Navigator, and email, notes, etc. I've got a carmont for it, I can connect my Motorola to it with a slim cable and get online to use Terminal Services to reboot my servers or check my email. I can read at night in bed without annoying the girlfriend with a light. It charges every other day or so. It gets the most use from GPS in the car (powered), or reading (low-power).

For working on the road, I take the laptop. The same slim cable connects to my Motorola for use as a modem, anywhere, anytime. Or, stumble onto an open hotspot with my USB key wifi.

For me, it's the perfect troika. No one tool could do all those functions with the same convenience. Until those handtop PCs are under $500, I'm happy with this combo.

PDAs will stay, but at a $29.95 price point

[Animats]

Go to a large drugstore and visit the "calculator" section. You'll find things that are low end PDAs already. That's where PDAs are headed.

Anybody remember Hasbro's "Clueless Organizer", in bright pink, aimed at high school girls?

What we really need is a standard for hot-synching all the low-end devices.

Re:The cell-phone PDA is not going to catch on so

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt it'll go away anytime soon. Remeber, not everyone has a cell phone. I don't have one, and I'd be fucking pissed if I had to pay $35 a month to use my next PDA just because they don't make regular non-phone PDAs anymore.

ebooks

[kmccoy]

I bought my PDA with good intentions of becoming organized. Of course, that didn't happen. However, I now have a job that requires me to travel for months at a time. As such, space in my suitcases is at a premium. As an avid reader, I immediately began looking into the concept of ebooks. I am completely hooked on this concept. My coworkers look at my book collection with jealousy. Their suitcases are weighed down by books, while I simply have my PDA. (Well, I also have a bunch of useless junk that I probably shouldn't be traveling with, too, but let's not discuss that.) Also, since it's backlit, I can read at night without bothering my roommate, even when the hotel has crappy lighting.

Maybe ebooks will eventually be read on e-ink paper and such. But for now the PDA is the best way to read them, and for a traveller like me, it's the best way to read in general.

Re:$700-$1200 a piece.. see ya later!

[Anonymous Coward]

$700? What are you looking at, ultra high-end Pocket PCs? You can get a very nice Palm or Pocket PC for less than $300.

Just occured to me... are you talking Canadian or American dollars?

Hmmm....

[DivideByZero]

You might want to take a look at the Zire71s, Or maybe the Treo600, if you can find one.

To some, "PDA" refers to the form factor

[tepples]

I suppose my 200lb desktop is a PDA as well. It's personal, digital, and it assists me in my work.

OK, granted. Perhaps the expansion "pocket-size digital assistant" better fits my conception of the device.

Look, conventionally, a PDA stores contact info and runs a calendar.

Conventionally, a PC's task was to run word processors and spreadsheet apps. Now PCs are Internet and music terminals. Conventions change.

The hardware is the same perhaps but it's function has changed. He could just as easily be using a tablet PC for example.

So I'm guessing that in the minds of some people, a "PDA" has evolved to refer to a half-size tablet PC.

PDAs aren't dead.

[bs_02_06_02]

The PDA isn't dead. It's changing. The need for wireless was grossly underestimated. As for the comments about scanning pill bottles, you're not talking about something that a doctor would do, that's a nurse, or a lab tech. You're talking about jobs for at least 3 different people in a hospital. And those jobs are going to be treated differently. If you think a barcode scanner will help a doctor, you might think again. A doctor rarely will need it. A doctor writes prescriptions, orders tests and x-rays. If they dispense anything, it's with a nurse assisting them. The nurse might need a barcode reader.

PDAs are not a gimmick. For years, meetings were much more convenient with the previous days' take of email and info at hand... saving a lot of time running back and forth without a laptop. Are you trying to tell me that all that convenience was wasted? A PDA/cell phone wouldn't have done me any good.

Sony has hinted that they will attack the PDA market without the high-branded CLIE "we've got every feature you could imagine" attitude. They've hinted that the market for the PDA will be specific features, more focused, lower-priced.

Frankly, wireless would be the feature I'm most interested in. And to all you clods crying "Bluetooth r0xx0rs." Balloney. The last thing I need is another dumb box sitting on or around my home machines. Wireless router/firewall, cable modem, USB 1.1 hub (for an old machine that can't get USB 2), USB2, firewire, KVM switch, and now you want bluetooth? Get a life.

I've found a really good PDA without the one feature I want most... 802.11 wireless, but they stuck a f-ing 1meg video cam on the thing. I have 2 mini-DV cameras that fit in my palm. Why would I want somethign that does 240 x 180 in a PDA? Huh? Who's the brain surgeon here? As for wireless, I don't care which format, I can handle all 3. I don't want an add on module that sticks out 3 inches. I want something small. I don't need a phone. If I switch phone companies, I'm screwed. I want it separated. I'm sick of the phone companies locking features away, or charging $10 a month for something that should be free.

Speaking of phones, I want to be able to put my own ringtones in the phone. I don't want to have to pay some schmuck in NJ $2.95 to try out Battle Hymn of the Republic on my cell phone.

And, I don't want to pay $10 a month to send 125 text messages with a cellphone keypad. It's f-ing ridiculous. I don't want to pay $600 for a PDA phone either. I really want them separate. I want to be able to tell my cell phone provider to take a hike if they can't provide service. I'd like to be able to take my PDA with me when and if I left my phone carrier.

Re:PDAs aren't dead.

[AmericanInKiev]

Properly implemented - I think even doctors would find a portable data collector useful. (But I said medicine - meaning the whole group)

But yes - certainly nurses.

I believe the difference between fast and accurate data collection

vs.

PDA's which are slow, tedious and require comprehension - which is the opportunity for error.

Scanners require no user comprehension - when we read data - we scan the words against the words we recognize. One latin word may be closer to a different but more familiar word than we realize, and a mistake is made.

A great deal of medicine involves watching the patient react to treatments - logging temperature, meds, foods, pisses, wakes, and sleeps can lead to better medicine at lower cost - and a scanner is the tool for this. a PDA is not.

To input - patient A is asleep - 12:13 pm into a PDA is a serious task, but a quick swipe of the patients chart and a second pass at a simple vital checklist and the data is collected and timestamped.

Add a digital camera to your bag of tricks, and you can prove and record (against the patients scanned chart and clock) almost any metric empirically - click - the thermometer says 103 degrees. click - patient is eating.

A good deal of medicine is proving you haven't screwed up.

AIK

Re:PDAs aren't dead.

[Alioth]

Most modern cell phones will use ordinary MIDI files for ring tones. My Nokia certainly does. Just find somewhere like the MIDI Farm and download the file via GPRS and you're all set.

Kyocera 7135 Smartphone

[AlphaDecay]

Like others have noted I've gone with the phone/PDA combo. Although my phone is larger than other phones and has a smaller screen than PDA's, it does both jobs well enough that its pro's outweigh these con's (for me). I really hope that the phone/PDA trend continues and it seems to me to be a logical convergence for these type of devices.

Although I was never a standalone PDA user, my needs as a multi-classroom teacher have driven me to one with an on-demand internet connection. Now I can check my email from all of my accounts etc. between classes when getting on a computer at school is just not possible. Not only are they slow, but I have to make sure the previous teacher is done with it.

A variety of freeware apps have made the PDA a highly usable device from what I used to define as a tech trinket. With Plucker I schedule web page download/conversion and push it to the phone. This covers my daily news needs. With Directory Assistant I can look up addresses, directions, maps and telephone numbers.

The phone has SDIO card support, in addition to MP3 playback. I use my Neuros for MP3's but its nice to know the phone could act as a temp replacement for my MP3 habits.

Finally, although it did cost money, Snappermail is what I use for email as it not only can render html email but it also handles attachements quite nicely and can schedule email download (will wake up the PDA if needed). If I schedule it right, not only are all of my news needs met, but so is email and I don't have to invoke the internet connection and wait for the update as its already been downloaded.

Just my two bits on why I feel PDA's still have a future.

--AlphaDecay

needs more games

[chipace]

I use the notebook version ($1.59) and am very happy with it. The only downside (vs the electronic version) is the games... tic-tac-toe, sos, hangman all require another person. My only one-player game is the drawing pictures one... what one-player games do you have on your model?

Hell no!

[Moocowsia]

I've had my dell axim x5 for 8 months now. You dolts who think its anticonvergent have it all wrong. Im only in grade 11, but its perfect for me. Its a gameboy (with free games) an mp3 player, a video player and a wordpad (like I use that :P) when ever I need it. It works awsome for mp3s, games and videos. Perfect for boring classes.

Easy

[empaler]

They don't have to do much R&D to make the "light" versions.
Also, just because the current market segment is saturated, doesn't mean that they can't find new segments to flaunt their devices to.

Use and Cost

[yoshi_mon]

I've owned a few PDAs now for some time and have come to see a few things about them. Many of these same points have been made here allready but I'd like to chip in my 2cents about the list of things that I feel are most important.

1. Cost -- I simply can not justify dropping much more than $150 for a device that can be so easily be broken/lost/stolden that does not strap onto my body. (The reason I say strapped on is watches. And even then I'm pretty frugal with that.) When you get past $150 to around $500 your talking about something that may do a lot of neat things but that just makes it all the more ripe of a target for theft. And anywhere past $500 you might just be better off getting a low-cost/referbed laptop that will do way more anyway.

2. Useability -- Do I really need to be able to watch movies on a PDA? I suppose it would be neat but to do so I'd have to drop a ton of cash for one that has the CPU/Memory and then we get back to that cost/theft issue. I've found that some of the best things that I do with my palm on a regular basis are the simplest things. Being able to have notes, a few pictures, read books/webpages, and play a few simple games. Anything else that gets too complicated means that I either have to a) work with some sort of annoying handwriting recognition system or b) break out my keyboard. (Not always a bad thing but kind of defeats the purpose of having it in your "palm".)

3. Screen size -- Here comes the argument against cellphone PDAs. I simply don't want some tiny ass screen! Having the palm just big enough so it fits in my hand with as much screen as you can fit on to that is just about right. Anything less means less overall useability and since they have to intigrate a cell phone into it your talking higher cost.

Re:Use and Cost

[Moocowsia]

You know you can get titanium cases for most pdas. There goes the break it arguement.

Re:Use and Cost

[yoshi_mon]

Yeah, those titanium cases really help when something heavy crushes down on the screen. Puh-lease.

I personally never have broken any of my PDAs due to them being rugged enough or put into nice leather cases when I'm going out but if you think that they can't/don't break your a fool. (More likely just a troll.)

Re:Use and Cost

[Moocowsia]

I use a leather case as well. No problems. But honestly it would be quite difficult to damage a pda in a Ti case. Most cases have it so that the screen is recessed a bit making it so that its less likely to land on. If it landed on a rock or something I can see the case not doing anything, but otherwise it would help. Also I wan't trolling.

Why not just use paper?

[Chemisor]

Couldn't you just print out your contact information and bind it into a nice little book? Surely, you do not acquire new ones so frequently that you can't type them in at your home PC at the end of the day. Writing in a pocket calendar is no harder than using the darn stylus. And you get free heuristic searching with only about 4 seeks per access thanks to those letter tabs.

This is true...

[willtsmith]

Clies were definitely pushing the envelope EVERY time they released a device. They didn't do such a good job with releasing devices that "just worked".

Beyond this, I think they alienated a LOT of users because ALL their batteries were internal and non-upgradeable. A LOT of Clie users ended up switching to PocketPC.

Re:This is true...

[swv3752]

Not all, just most. The SL10 used AAA. The NZ90 had a replaceable battery pack. I think a couple of others had a replaceable battery pack.

Price

[Com2Kid]

The issue is price.

I bought a used Sonly Clie S360 on Ebay for $37. It has a low res B/W greyscale screen, 120x120 IIRC, and sure I would like a higher one, much more useful for taking notes. Heck one of the software silkscreens would be a SERIOUS boost, I have used them before and my accuracy goes up tremendously.

But you know what? Until they are under $50, no way. College student == no $$$.

Also, my GF has a Palm m505, she gets about 3 days battery life out of it. It also resets itself randomly every few months and deletes everything, joy. Color isn't worth all the hassle. ^_^ I have about three to four weeks battery life, no issues, and I found a good 4MB sony digital memory stick card to shove my backup data on. Unfortuntly Sony is a prick when it comes to software support and refuses to release the special version of Palm Desktop that is needed to synch, but the only reason I use sync is for data backup anyways.

I do not use Outlook, and until Thunderbird gets decent contact management and what not, (a working calander plugin would help to!) I will not be too worried about hotsynching.

I will upgrade when prices drop below $50 and battery life matches what I currently have.

Return of the Newton

[MacFury]

Here's my prediction: When the PDA market dries up and dies, Apple will revive the Newton. They axed the Newton just when PDAs were catching on... (a sour former Netwon user who misses the 2100)

Industry should get a clue

[melted]

No one wants to pay $400 for something that has 320x240 screen. I can't comfortably read from this thing at this resolution, and this makes it utterly useless. How about a hi-rez display, say 800x600 or something like that. A display that's actually readable and looks smooth.

I would also appreciate more tablet-like interface (i.e. more accurate stylus tracking, and not having to touch the screen to move the pointer) and more ram/flash built in, at least 256MB.

Wake me up when they put out something with the specs I described.

Re:Industry should get a clue

[cybpunks3]

We're already at the tail end of the 320x240 era with PDAs. With displays like what's on the newest Zaurus it's only a matter of time before all PDAs, are at least 640x480.

Demand is down because need is down

[dacarr]

To measure this against a standard of "sales are down, it's dead" is the wrong way. As near as I can tell, people aren't going to buy a PDA unless there is a need/desire to either buy one for the first time or replace their current one - and the latter is more likely to happen if it's damaged, lunatic fringe notwithstanding. It is not a consumable product such as (say) coffee, where you will run out and accordingly replace it - you aren't going to run out of PDA like you do coffee. (You probably will run out of battery power, but that's an aside.) I mean, this is a totally different realm you're playing in here.

So as such, if sales are down, maybe it's not consumer apathy, but more likely that the consumer doesn't have the need to just replace their external brain arbitrarily?

Get your facts straight

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Tungsten E, priced at $150 and has comes with a universal connecter and has the ability to add in a bluetooth SD card and thumb board."

The Tungsten E does NOT have the Palm Universal Connector. This is one of the features that PalmOne skimped on when making the device. It is the reason that many consumers have bought the Zire 71 instead. They have too many accessories that make use of the universal connector.

Re:Get your facts straight

[sethanon]

I'm not sure, but I think pherris was saying that Palm should release a Tungsten E with a Universal Connector.

I see a lot of people complaining about a lack of a "universal connector" on the Tungsten E. I have a Tungsten E and I love the fact that it uses a standard mini-USB port. I can charge off any PC using a standard cable used by several of my gadgets.

Now I admit that I don't have any legacy add-ons but I think the answer is to use the standard USB interface for all Palm models, release new add-ons that use the USB and release a cheap conversion widget so that users can still use their old add-ons.

The real question is why the hell can't I plug my Tungsten E into any computer and have that computer mount the Palm storage as a removable drive, without installing drivers? You could add security by making the user enter a password on the Palm to unlock the filesystem.

The Walkman of the 21. Century

[MGrie]

They might just be preparing for the PSP to bounce back into that market later....

or maybe that's just wishful thinking...

Sorta OT

[certsoft]

One market for PDA's is Infrared links to embedded systems, typical uses are configuration and state of health inspection. These often use very simple protocols instead of actual IRDA frames. A common problem that has come up in the last year or so is Palm's use of the TI OMAP processors. These processors have a design defect that prevents them from properly handling anything other than IRDA frames. Devices using OMAP processors:

• PalmOne Tungsten T, T2 (OMAP 1510, 144 MHz)
• PalmOne Treo 600 (OMAP 310, 144 MHz)
• PalmOne Zire 21, 71, Tungsten E (OMAP 311, 126 MHz)

Cellphone with PDA? yeah, but do me a seperate PDA

[SillyNickName4me]

I rather want a phone with very basic PDA functions (addressbook, agenda, possibly a notepad) and a seperate dedicated PDA.
Here is why:

• I can still use my PDA while talking on the phone for things like looking up info or taking a note
• PDA formfactor has a much better usable screensize, esp. for someone who is visually impaired.
• I can use my PDA to read/write at places where I have to turn off my phone such as in an airplane

I keep my PDA and phone synced to my pc and to eachother using bluetooth, so I take my notes and appointments once, and have them everywhere even if I only carry my phone around.. I do end up taking my PDA with me as well tho most of the time.. its small and light enough to just fit in the pocket of a shirt.

Since my phone doesn't have to have a as big as possible screen or even color, it can me sxtremely small and have a very low energy usage, resulting in being able to carry it around for a logn time without charging.

So well, by not wanting phone functionality from my pda, and only wanting very limited pda functionality from my phone, I end up with 2 small and light devices. I can always carry my appointments and such with me in a small and light phone, and it is little bother to take a pda with me as well since it is also light and small. Since they have a wireless link I can still browse the internet and do mail on my pda, and do so with a nice well readable screen and something more comfortable then a phone keyboard.

It's kindof funny, neither my pda or phone is new, both are over 2 years old actually, but the combination ends up being very usable, and as it is, I often end up reading slashdot during my regular 5 hours long trips to Berlin by train, only depending on the availability of the cellular network, but with a repeater in the train itself that is not a problem.. and knowign that by the tiem I get there the batteries of my PDA will be somewhat drained, but my phoen will have enough power to last another week :)

Palm may be

[dekeji]

As long as Palm keep shipping the same old stuff, why should people upgrade? A Palm from 2004 isn't all that much more useful than a Palm from four years ago: it runs basically the same PIM applications and still has most of the same limitations. Screens have gotten a little better, but a 320x320 screen doesn't really display any more information (even Palm's own applications don't handle smaller fonts correctly), and many applications don't support the 320x480 screens. It's also not really surprising that people haven't come up with new killer apps for the Palm--if you spend fighting with the OS and supporting a dozen different versions, they don't have time.

Internet and phone connectivity are such a pain to figure out on most models, too, that people don't use PDAs for that. They probably don't prefer the bulky phone-PDA combos, but it's the only thing they can get to work.

I suspect the situation is not much different with PocketPC.

Once PDA manufacturers figure out how to do a better job on the OS and libraries, then the PDA market will pick up again.

I'm one of those in the market

[sycomonkey]

As a soon-to-be-returning college student, I see that I need some sort of mobile device to carry assignments, test dates, study scedules, and such on. I am completely uninterested in cell phones, so a PDA is the next logical step. I'm looking at the Palm 31. Full color screen and I can use it as an MP3 player, plus it's only $150. Sounds good to me.

The "killer app" for handhelds is...

[tchdab1]

...voice. The telephone.
That's a quote of Jeff Hawkins', and I've got to believe that it's borne out by the numbers.
Hundreds of millions of cellphones are sold every year, and only in the neighborhood of 100 million PDAs have been sold in total to date.
Then by inference it follows that a killer PDA, one that most people will want to use, should have a phone built into it. And it also appears that the market for devices without a phone has flattened, and manufacturers are turning to PDAs with phones in them, and away from PDAs without phones in them.

You've got it all wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"This happens to fads. I don't see many people wearing 'hammer pants' anymore, despite the fact they provided the same use as any other pair of pants."

"You've touched it really - these..."

You've got it all wrong my friend!

You can't touch this.

Phone/PDAs are convenient but awkward

[wfolta]

The result is a mobile phone that can store all your necessary info in one pocket

The operative words here are "store" and "necessary" (in the sense of minimal). Phones still have tiny screens compared to PDAs, so you're looking at your data through a periscope. And if you want to enter or modify data, you're left with a phone keypad which has got to be the stupidest revisionist engineering accomplishment of all time in terms of inputting non-numeric data.

Of course, you can add a larger screen, and writing or a keyboard to your phone, in which case you now have something that's PDA-sized. Which means an awkward size and shape for a phone.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about the wonderful combination bicycle/gas grill that saves all kinds of space in the garage.

Yes, 'cause I just bought one.

[Eponymous Mallard]

Yep, they're finished. You know why? 'Cause I just bought one, that's why! Never owned a PDA before. So today I go and buy a Palm. Feeling mighty pleased with myself ... then I log into Slashdot and what do I see but this topic. Thanks, guys. Thanks.

It's like I'm cursed or something.

Eponymous Mallard "If it quacks like a duck, it may be the Eponymous Mallard"

Sorry, you used classic troll format

[yoshi_mon]

You know you can get titanium cases for most pdas. There goes the break it arguement.

You make it sound as if putting it in a case makes it impossable to break. And thus my argument for having the things getting broke is totally invalid.

I personally have seen PDAs that have been inadvertantly crushed or someone simply took it out of the case to use it more easily.

Your statment was one line and then totally dismissed my point. Even if you did not intend to troll, you sure did bud.

Another Yogi saying?

[EdlinUser]

They are selling so well that you can't buy one.

Re:Another Yogi saying?

[Raven42rac]

I use one of those all the time "no one goes there anymore, it's too crowded".

Tool not Toy

[CalsailX]

I own two ipaq H3600's first thing I
did was dump the Pocket PC crap and
put linux on them. With a pcmcia sleeve,
a 10/100 integrated card, and real
trouble shooting tools like tcpdump.

They are the cat's meow when you find
yourself in drop ceiling with a hub
someone stuck there years ago and forgot
about. Last time I pulled out my PDA
in that situation, the tech I was
working with would have killed for
one. If you are trouble shooting a network
problem that takes you into a attic or
into a crawl space that laptop is
not the animal you want to use.

Install prismstumbler and add a
directional antenna, getting a idea
of what the wireless neighborhood
looks like is a piece of cake.

Contacts, phone numbers, notes hell
I got a cheap Casio device that's
better for that stuff and If it gets
run over by a car tire I'm out less
then $50.00.

PDA Supercomputer

[POLAX]

I've always found them clunky and useless...but I know some Linux guru out there will make the world's first supercomputer comprised of PDA's...

Re:$700-$1200 a piece.. see ya later!

[derekb]

Sorry.. I keep forgeting Americans use the dollar too... indeed the Canadian..

I just checked these guys here and they're still pretty pricey, but HP is offering cheaper models now (unlike the compaq ipaq days when I bought my 3870)

Grand Unification

[PMuse]

People are willing to carry one device.

People want a phone first; an email or computer or music player second; and a camera last.

Whether the name of the rose is "phone that does PDA tasks" or "PDA that does phone tasks", the rose will smell as sweet.

(The real difference being that if the device must have phone service, then a PDA maker becomes nothing more than one more phone manufacturer for the cellular service companies.)

I want a PAD

[cruachan]

Why oh why can't someone produce a decent PAD like they used for passing reports around on Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise?

I had a Jordana for several years and recently replaced it with a iPAQ 4150 (the smallest iPAQ with built in wireless lan). I know this will cause a sharp intake of breath, but as I use Windows the integration with Outlook is superb. I love the way I can copy important information on notes in Outlook and I know it will sync automatically onto the PDA. Over and above the usual contact and diary info too of course.

Other functions are less useful, but nice to have. I have written short articles in Word on a PDA - slow, but beats humping the laptop - used the browser (+ mobile phone) to find train timetable information on the move, and used it to keep up with email while on holiday.

But, it could be improved. True portability at PDA size is nice, but I'd sacrifice a little of that for a larger screen. Which brings me back to the Star Trek PADs. The ones they carry around on Enterprise are about twice the size of a PDA, which seems to me to be ideal. A PDA with a 640 x 480 screen at around twice current PDA width would be great. Small enough to be easily portable but big enough not to feel cramped. Ideally it would fold in hald for transport too

What I want in a PDA

[Rufus88]

Here's what I want. If it's available somewhere for the PocketPC platform, please tell me. I like the voice record button, but I want it to incorporate application-specific voice recognition. I want to be driving down the road, whip out my PDA, push the voice record button and say "NEW EMAIL TO self ABOUT engine light BEGIN call garage and make an appointment to have the car looked at END", or "NEW APPOINTMENT DATE TODAY TIME one p.m. INVITE bob and joe SUBJECT code review LOCATION main conference room". Right now all that voice record button is leave an item in my outlook notes folder with a voice recording attachment inside.

All PDA's

[BCW2]

Can be replaced by a decent laptop or a pad and paper. They all caught M$ disease, too much fluff pretending to be features. They are too small for all that crap, using a pick to enter anything at 1/10 the speed of a real keyboard. It just doesn't work in any way for me.

Then again I refuse to be on a leash, no cell phone.

Re:All PDA's

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Then again I refuse to be on a leash, no cell phone.

How does a cellphone make you on a leash? Ignoring/diverting a call, or turning it off is not illegal, you know.

Re:All PDA's

[BCW2]

Fifteen years ago: when you saw someone with a cell phone, you thought they might be important. Now you lnow there on a leash to a higher power, like a wife!

Hmmm.

[Aldric]

I'm an unusual geek. I don't want a PDA or palmtop computer. If I had one I could use the time on the train I spend travelling to get to work. Fuck that - I write software for eight hours a day and I enjoy an hour reading a book and listening to music travelling each way. So no, they can shove devices that make me work more. :)

Could be true! iPod vs Palm.

[rspress]

With my iPod doing most of what my palm can do as far as reading documents and having my calendars and contacts, as well as a few games and a buttload of music, I find that my Palm does not get used as much as it used to.

If the iPod had a way to enter contact and calendar information with using a computer, then I would find little use for my palm other than having my Filemaker databases, word files and few cool games. Syncing the iPod is certainly much faster than syncing my palm.

Still not made right. . .

[Fantastic Lad]

The perfect device would have. . .

A screen which can hold more than one sentence. 2"x5" would be enough.

Designed to be comfortably read while reclining. I don't want to have to hold my hands in a funny, awkward way just to hit scroll keys.

Good screen. I don't need color. I'm happy with LCD, but it had better not be made of glass or some other highly reflective surface. There's nothing more irritating than having to fight to angle the device in such a way as to avoid reflections of bright objects. Like walls.

Battery has to last for more than 24 hours.

Takes flash cards.

Has the ability, out of the box, to plug into any regular serial or USB keyboard. Must be designed to sit on a surface with a wide range of adjustable viewing angles.

These features are all within the current realm of possible. The Psion series 5 (one of which I just scooped from ebay), comes pretty close, but falls down hard on a couple of points. --The screen is WAY too reflective and the keyboard, while amazing for a handheld, is just slightly too small to comfortably touchtype with, and the button contacts aren't quite sensitive enough. --You type with the same pressure as you would with the keys on a normal keyboard, and you don't get letters every time. This means you're constantly having to back up to fix words. This is a major pain. You have to mess around too much to make it work. It's almost as though Psion was deliberately trying to annoy with almost-good-enough design. Also, plugging into a full-sized keyboard requires third party software which you have to pay for. Aggravating.)

So nobody has made the perfect device yet. I don't know why this is, because it's entirely possible to do. ALL the technology is cheep and available. --And there is WAY more application for a decent tool of that sort than there is for one of those next-to-worthless PDAs.

PDA's are too small, too expensive and too useless. If I can't comfortably write an essay on the device, then it's totally worthless to me. Keeping appointments and phone numbers is fine, and the PDA does it well, but come on! For most people, it's simply not a big enough concern. The people who buy PDA's, for the most part, aren't getting them because they actually need to store phone numbers.

Of course, it's easy to understand why the things are so popular; they're flashy and gadgetty and new. And they'll go the way of the Walkman and Wristwatch. --Cute and clever toys which sane people will get bored with and find they are much less irritated living without.

Give me a real tool. Don't give me a nerd-ball fashion accsessory which doesn't do anything more than play MP3's, remember phone numbers and annoy the piss out of people by forcing them read documents one ingredient-label sized portion at a time.

-FL

Re:Still not made right. . .

[eBayDoug]

I feel the screen needs to be 6" X 2.5", about the size of a good old fashioned At&T Telephone handset.

The Blackberry isn't finished

[angle_slam]

I have a Sony SJ30. But my company gave me a Blackberry 7280. The Blackberry automatically syncs with Outlook with Notes, Addresses, and Email (although only Email is wirelessly synced). Everyone who has one in my office uses it constantly.

Because of the Blackberry, my SJ30 has fallen into complete disuse. But the biggest problem with the Blackberry is the lack of decent 3rd party apps for it. There are some, but not nearly as many as for the Palm platform.

Public/Private Displays of Affection

[Anonymous Coward]

The industry just has to realize that selling displays of affection is a limited inudtry in the US. With all the law enforcement in the US, the market simply cannot support a unlimited number of players in the markets.

PDAs will likely continue

[foxalopex]

I personally believe PDAs will continue on the market thou they might evolve into phone devices. At the moment, I suspect the market it somewhat saturated since I don't know of too many folks who upgrade their PDAs year after year. PDA's can do a lot too that many folks don't realize yet. I have a high end Tungsten T3 and after searching for software for the thing it acts as a black book, organizer, encrypted password database, starmap, mp3 player, Xvid widescreen movie player (Yes you can fit a whole movie on a 256 mb SD card), universal remote, voice recorder, stopwatch, gaming system and a nifty way to share photos. So no I wouldn't say these things are useless. And if you get an IR portable keyboard, for rapid note taking. Sony's exit from the market is a bit sad but Palm has essentially caught up on all of Sony's offerings which I suppose doesn't leave much room for Sony to manuver in anymore.

PDAs, Smartphones

[salesgeek]

I started with a Palm Pilot Pro ($500)... moved to a visor ($250), then to a Kyocera Smartphone ($400)... and now have a Treo 270 ($99). The 270 is a little flimsy, but it is a very practical device. Too bad T-Mobile has some of the functionality locked down.

The PDA isn't dead. It just isn't worth $500 like it was three years ago. Sony's products didn't make much sense because the value of the pda wasn't cameras, big screens, gadgety keyboards and the like. The value was to replace my day-timer, allow me to carry an e-book or two and from time to time, keep me entertained in the waiting room (Invaders anyone)...

I do get a kick when people show me their new fancy-schmancy camera phone... that they just paid $299 for... why you wouldn't get a smart phone is beyond me.

My Cellphone Killed My PDA!

[callipygian-showsyst]

I stopped using my PDA when I could sync an appointment calendar via bluetooth to my cell phone (currently a Moto V600).

My Palm Tungsten has been sitting unused ever since. I guess I should sell it on eBay before it's worth nothing.

Sony? You're basing this on SONY?

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon. It's been over a year now since their CEO said that if he couldn't own all of Palm OS, he wouldn't continue to develop Palms... but is your memory really that short?

Cell Phones *are* PDA's

[ppp]

... so this is really just a semantical argument. What we're really saying here is that *unconnected* PDA's are on the way out, which I think is true for a lot of devices. Hell, they're even putting Bluetooth into cars.

The major PDA manufacturers are in fact shifting toward producing such connected devices - PalmOne has publically stated this on several occcasions. Within a year almost every PDA will have either telephony and/or WiFi.

And since instant messaging is rapidly emerging as a Killer App for connected devices, imputting methods are going to evolve beyond the simple phone keypads we all know and love. A phone with a QWERTY keypad, for example, and a decent screen looks a lot like, well, a PDA.

Whether the traditional *PDA* players can remain in the game is another question, but we'll still be carrying around devices with our schedules and a few games on them, and they'll make pleasent beeping sounds as well.

You can call them anything you want if it makes you feel better.

or is it because of Sony Ericsson

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the former (3 year) CEO of Sony Ericsson, Katsumi Ihara, just recently left for a top notch position back at the mother company, Sony. Weird, since after loosing ground in mobiles - going from 4th to 7th globally, and all but exiting the US market - he gets lucky two quarters in a row. Wait, that's not luck, that the result of axing over a thousand jobs in Germany, USA, and Sweden. He stated goal was to make Sony Ericsson #1 by 2006. #1 in what, dare I ask...

Anyhow, It looks like he's convinced SOny CEO Idei to forgo short term gains - hey the Clie was #2 worldwide - on the shoestrings of Sony Ericsson MObiles.

Best of luck, SEMC. Maybe you can remain 7th, now that the Clie developers have nothing better to work on.

I sure hope not!

[Len Budney]

I couldn't live without my Palm IIIxe. Ebooks on the bus, note-taking in meetings, studying with SuperMemo on potty breaks, are too deeply imbedded in my life now to give up. So if PDAs are dead, what will I do when my Palm's buttons stop working? I'm already on PDA #3 due to worn-out buttons.

If the PDA does die, it will be by suicide: WinCE, massive RAM increases, wireless, etc., all nudge PDAs into the space already occupied by laptops. In that niche, they're doomed--a PDA just isn't as good as a laptop at being a laptop.

That's why I've reluctantly retired my Zaurus and gone back to Palm. What's the use of a handheld that can run MySQL, if the batteries last about 40 minutes?

(The IIIxe sits right in the sweet spot for me: enough RAM for a dozen ebooks; battery life measured in weeks; small form factor; acceptable resolution; easily replaced batteries available from any store; standard serial interface that can talk to my XP, Linux, Mac and GPS. And graffiti kicks the thumb-keyboard's posterior.)

I'm sorry... when did they start?

[Thorstein]

PDAs= Why have a 1000 dollar pile of digital crap when a fucking 2 dollar day planner does the same thing. And no one uses them either.

The PDA killed itself

[gubbas]

Think about it. The hardware makers treated PDA's as disposable. They keep replacing previous models instead of upgrading them. I don't think people have lost interest in using PDA's. There are plenty in use all around my office. I just think "we" just got collectively tired of blowing $400+ every year for something that still works. Also, many geeks have gone on belt diets. I for one have gotten tired of haveing a pager for work, my personal cell phone, an iPaq, and my ipod on my belt. In the fight for space, the iPaq and pager lost. I just routed the pages to my personal phone, put my notes on the ipod and replaced my watch with a Fossil MSN direct watch that has my calendar. Now I only have a cell and ipod on my belt.

PDA dead ? No way

[elpapacito]

I just bought one :) No, really !

I guess the definition of PDA is dead, not the device. I think a more appropriate definition could be "Pocket PC" , the expression used by Micro$oft as far as I know.

My current PDA or PocketPc or ThinginthePocket
is capable of playing mp3/ogg, showing compressed videos at a reasonably watchable frame rate, can store entire libraries in thumbnail sized memory and access it or search in a reasonably brief time, can connect to Internet by Wifi or by GPRS, can be used as a phone or as a not-dumb-at-all terminal. My only complain is that the battery doesn't always last long enough for my usage patterns, but it's a relatively minor annoyance.

Obviously, it's overkill for a number of users who just use it to scribble two notes a day or access some spreadsheet.

I guess that, again, the market size will be limited by the number of users, not only by price.My hope is in 15-18 generation who , at least in Europe, is so much used to cellphone and videogames and internet they'll see Pocket Computers as the desiderable upgrade from relatively dumb cellphones with little flexibilty.

Unfortunately the prices seem to be still a little too high for many consumers, when one considers that fine cellphone can be bought for as little as $60-70.

I was thinking about this

[MarcQuadra]

I was thinking abou thtis a few days ago. Would it be SO HARD for Palm to make an ARM or ColdFire-based PDA molded into a single piece of plastic? The peroblem I have with Palms is that they often don't fully recover from a simple dropping; or they get pocket-kibble in them. If they built something that was rugged as all-hell they'd have something to sell.

Most folks I know, and virtually ALL corporate accounts would PREFER an ultra-rugged ultra-cheap black-and-white or lowcolor device with AAA or button batteries, running PalmOS 4.1. These stupid color devices are weak and disposable, they're good for the 'consumers' but bad for businesses that just need to arm folks with simple data.

The real key is going to be the design process, because the ruggedness and price will be affected by it. If they took a hot rubbery-plastic base, dropped the assembled palm logic on it and then sealed it permanently with a hot rubbery-plastic faceplate they'd have the ultimate disposable PDA.

Are PDAs finished?

[Baseclass]

I think not, they're just going through a transitional period right now. Yes smartphones are probably the next big thing.

I've been using PalmOS based PDAs since the fist PalmPilot was released and digital organizers prior to that. I don't leave home without my PDA ever.

I have a very hard time understanding how the average person goes through their day without one. I use mine for contact information, calendaring, games, looking up words (carrying a dictionary with you at all times is absolutely fantastic), cached websites(updated twice a day), belive it or not I use that cheezy mirror program that turns your screen black so you can see your reflection better all the time, universal remote, informational databases, notepad, password storage (how the hell do people remember all of their passwords? I have over 50 passwords and the list is growing), family photos, ebooks,...I could go on but you get the point.

I believe the market has gone sour for a few reasons:
A. Modern cell phones do most of the basic PDA functions. B. Old PDAs do most of the basic PDA functions. C. Most people don't own and have never owned a PDA before so they don't know what their missing.

Like I originally stated however, their just going through a transitional period. Once the technology advances to the point that we have phones with month long power supplies, MP3 players, high quality digital cameras and PDA functionality that will make our current PDAs look like calculators (oh yea, I use my PDA as a calculator as well).

PDAs are not dying, but have some issues

[n1ywb]

Sony made overpriced PDAs with silly proprietary features. Is it all that suprising that they failed? Dell seems to be doing pretty good with the Axim. Sharp is still making Zaurii. HP is still making Ipaq's. I guess Palms are still around. I love PDAs, I think they're incredibly useful. I think the technology still has a ways to go, but I have to admit I love being able to read /. on the john. The biggest probles with PDAs: They're flimsy and expensive, two attributes that don't go well together. Pluss data stored on a PDA is extremely vulnerable to loss. PDAs get lost, stolen, and dropped. Nobody likes having vulnerable data.

Sony hasn't pulled out of the market.

[Thag]

Sony hasn't pulled out permanently, they've postponed the release of new models until the end of the fall. They're regrouping, in other words.

My pet theory is they don't want new Clies stealing the thunder of the PSP. Or, Sony Entertainment didn't want new Clies stealing the thunder of the PSP.

It may also be that they are waiting to see what Palm OS 6 does to the market, or they are having toothing problems with new tech like organic LED screens. Or they are unsatisfied with their current designers and are cleaning house and finding people who can produce PDAs with decent keyboards, d-pads and buttons.

Jon Acheson

Re:Sony hasn't pulled out of the market.

[Baseclass]

I actually love my Clié. I wouldn't have actually chosen a Sony PDA but My Vx stopped working and that was the best PDA I could get with my warranty without shelling out more cash.

Granted I was coming from a grayscale Vx but the color 320x320 display is outstanding. I think Sony has been very inovative in the PDA market. They brought the jog dial, the flip screen and clamshell design for higher end Cliés that also included a digital camera. These features may or may not be important to you (they're not really to me) but Sony's hardly a slouch in the market.

I'm not sure I want a keyboard on my Palm. I'd have to use one for a while to be sure, however, I do remember when I moved from my Casio digital organizer w/keyboard to a PalmPilot I thoroughly enjoyed using Grafitti for note taking. Obviously there's no substitute for a full sized keyboard or even a pen a paper for speed and efficiency but I've become quite proficient with the Palm language.

OLED screens are gonna change everything. Once screens don't require backlighting we're gonna see some great formfactors. Flexible screen technology will be really cool as well.

WTF is up with the vast majority of Palm based PDAs not having a d-pad that goes more than 2 directions? IS IT REALLY THAT TOUGH!? Get your heads out of your asses and give me a PDA that I can actually play action games one half-assed.

Re:Sony hasn't pulled out of the market.

[Thag]

Sony has done some good things, mainly in pushing Palm to add in features like sound and hi-res.

They also have some long-standing design flaws, though, like bad thumb-boards, and application /up-down buttons that are useless for game playing. You could also argue that the use of the Memory Stick is a major flaw (I would).

Again, I wonder if the division that makes Clies is in an internal power struggle with the division that makes game consoles. That might explain whey Sony hasn't come out with a game-oriented Clie.

Jon Acheson

PDA/Phone combo

[Anonymous Coward]

I love the setup my buddy has, and I'll probably get going once I buy a new phone later this year. With his Bluetooth-enabled Nokia phone and Palm Tungsten PDA, he's got the perfect setup. Oh, and couple that with a Mac Powerbook and iSync, and you've got a dream setup. Everything gets sync'd everywhere, and everything interacts. The Palm can dial the phone, and he can still jot down notes, phone numbers, surf the web, all the while talking on the phone.

I just don't think the phone/PDA combo is a very friendly, easy to use thing. I like having a small phone and a slightly larger PDA. My phone is easy to carry around in my pocket--I have yet to see a "smartphone" that is small enough to fit in anything short of a trenchcoat! The ones that are smaller are nearly impossible to write on, especially while talking on the phone. "Hold on for a few minutes while I write down your number. Be right back!"

But don't mind me: I think camera phones are stupid too.

Finished in the US

[sebthegourou]

PDA might be finished in the US, but not in other parts of the world... You'd be surprised how many of those you can see on Tokyo's metro. In the US, you're never in a situation where you really need a PDA. You're in your car, at home, in the office, or with friends. In all of these cases you do not need a PDA. PDA's are great when you ride public transport, like I do in Japan. I can prepare my emails, my todo list, my calendar, check my trains, learn japanese... while riding the train, and that's really usefull. Cell phone screen is too small to do any of that. And I see many other people who also type away on their PDA, 2/3 in each car...

Wrong.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

PDAs aren't failing because the technology is of no use. They're failing because cellphones and "smartphones" are making them redundant. Hell, even the iPod has partial PIM functionality.

PDA vs. Cell

[jabberwock]

I dumped my pda for a cell phone with pda features ... and I expect to dump my cell phone for a PDA again. VOIP and reasonably ubiquitous wireless broadband will make that the way to go, for me. GPRS, 3G, etc. aren't going to cut it ... I'm counting on wifi, WiMAX, etc. to mature in the next two years so that it will be reasonably convenient to carry a decent pda and use a softphone ...

Sure, I'll be buying bandwidth from someone ... but it might not be from an ILEC or a cellco. :-)

One question:

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

But how long does it take to sync War and Peace? ;)

Unless you're just jotting down ideas, a pad of paper is no replacment to a PDA, in the same way that a typewritter is no replacment to a computer, unless all you ever use is the word processor.

The typical technophobe.

[jotaeleemeese]

Just because you are unable to use new technology it means that technology is useless.

So I suppose the phones noted in your "gadget" (mine has 300+ contacts) is easily searchable?

Does it remind you birthdays?

Can you play games with it ? (yeah, that tic-tac-toe against yourself sounds really challenging. I suppose you erase each game each time in order to save paper)

And what do you use for backups? A photocopier?

I have taken my $300 device all around Europe. Africa, Asia, Latinamerica and even that wild place called the US. Lemme see, .... , yeah, it is still with me.

What nonsense, stop using expensive things for the fear of losing them...

Oh fucking please....

[jotaeleemeese]

Don't blame the devices in your own shortcomings. Where were your backups?

Give me a break....

Dear Batman.

[jotaeleemeese]

How do you backup your notepad.

Warm regards.

Robin.

Re:Cellphone with PDA? yeah, but do me a seperate

[Anonymous Coward]

...s-e-p-A-r-a-t-e

quite happy

[MadJo]

I'm actually quite happy with my PocketPC (Compaq iPaq 3760), it does all I need it to do (note keeping, ebook reader, addressbook, calendar etc.)

I don't need a phone attached to it, and I don't miss not having internet-connection... I can surely live without internet for a couple of days on my holiday.
If I want a phone, I'll get a mobile phone. If I want to connect to the internet, there are internetcafes abundant.

Of course I was playing with the idea to replace the MS PocketPC 2002 OS with a Linux based one, but I feared that if something went wrong, it would render the device useless. And for that this little toy was just too expensive.

Re:Cellphone with PDA? yeah, but do me a seperate

[SillyNickName4me]

Come back when your Dutch is about halfway as good as my English, or learn to read typo.

How I would like to see things go..

[SpaceJunkie]

A serious multifunction device - somewhere closer to a smaller tablet PC, than a PDA. My pocketPC is limited by is display size and software - it is quite capable(in terms of memory and processing) of doing a whole lot more than my main computer 5 years ago.

If they were to use some clamshell or flexible screen design to make a larger (100mm square) screen, with resolutions up to 800x600, continuing with Arm rpocessors at around 400-800 mhz - these would be small scale general purpose compuing device. I would definately own a general purpose device that could be stored in my pocket.

Communication wise - the device would need to provide Wi-Fi and bluetooth access, with a VoIP system when in range of a Wi-Fi AP and switching to cellular when not. You would have a BlueTooth ear/mouth peice, so all calls would be routed to it, with a stereo option for playing games/listening to mp3s.

An optional fold out keyboard - or simply a mini-usb port for desktop keyboard access would be welcome.

Memory wise - it should be possible to expand main memory, or flash storage. I would recommend CF (for microdrives). Both main memory and storage should be non-volatile - as an eseential feature of the device, and any software for it - is the ability to shut it down - preserving state - anywhere. This would include any games - and having them well written enough that pop-ups and alarms do not crash the machine (pocket PC - scummvm - popups mean crashes).

I would retain the touch screen and stylus, as well as one-touch dictation/recording.

Anyway - this is probably very niche - I do not know how many people would appretiate truly general purpose handheld devices...

Sometimes I don't write that pretty ...

[pherris]

As the owner of a Tungsten E I know what it has and what it doesn't. A major complaint about it is the fact that it doesn't have an universal connecter. Why Palm calls it "universal" and doesn't supply it universally is beyond me. The price is also $200 but IMO should be ~$150. Even though it has a SD slot and Palm makes a bluetooth SD card, that card is only support on a couple of models. There is also no thumb board.

These are things that I think should be included on the E. I apologize for the grammer mistakes (in my quest to post and go) that I'm sure caused others to get confused.

What if....

[agraupe]

you had a Beowulf cluster of PDAs?

But, seriously...

I used to love my Dell Axim. It was great for note taking, and it could also play music, and movies (DCMA be screwed!).

It's been a few months since then. I might need it again at some point, but I'm NOT gonna upgrade.

RIM and MS PocketPC

[peterbu]

For Enterprises, and anyone else interested in security, the Blackberry is the way to go. We are interested in the PocketPC as well, but so far security has been problematic. The RIM product is the only 'approved' deployed PDA at our organization because it is the only secure solution available right now. We have thousands of RIMs deployed while continue to try and secure the PPC. As far as websites go, as long as you access WML type sites(or mobile friendly sites) there is no issue. And, PPC has the same issues as the BB in rendering 'desktop-targeted' websites. Both devices can render HTML or WML; neither can handle Javascript. For us, the content rendering was not a factor. It was security.

Techies have no old fashioned wisdom.

[jonskerr]

"Don't put all your eggs in one basket." I was lucky and thought of that before buying, and when I had to send in my pda to get it fixed I wasn't without a phone. "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched." That's pretty much what caused the dotcom bubble to burst.

You are a dumb shit

[Anonymous Coward]

here's a clue: the OP is stupid --his typos are due to his stupidity. "Its" as in "something belonging to it" does not have an apostrophe, for instance, as that genius added to the word. Here's another clue, son: "typos" doesn't have an apostrophe either.

HTH

Re:Cellphone with PDA? yeah, but do me a seperate

[Nogami_Saeko]

Just two small notes on this, based on my P800 experience:

-You can set the phone to go into speakerphone mode if you need to take notes or utilize the PDA portion while you're on the phone. It works very well, provided the ambient noise isn't too loud. You can also plug-in a headset or use a bluetooth headset to talk on the phone while using the PDA (I use that a lot).

-Most (if not all) PDA/Phone combos offer a "flight mode" that disables the transmitter/receiver when you're on a plane and turns the unit into a PDA.

N.

Re:Cellphone with PDA? yeah, but do me a seperate

[SillyNickName4me]

-You can set the phone to go into speakerphone mode if you need to take notes or utilize the PDA portion while you're on the phone. It works very well, provided the ambient noise isn't too loud. You can also plug-in a headset or use a bluetooth headset to talk on the phone while using the PDA (I use that a lot).

I don't feel like letting the entire train I am in hear whatever message or number it is I am writing down really. A headset solves a large part of the issue btw, but doesn't solve my other issue, screensize.


-Most (if not all) PDA/Phone combos offer a "flight mode" that disables the transmitter/receiver when you're on a plane and turns the unit into a PDA.


So does mine, and yet I'm still told to turn it off in-flight, while they have no issue with me using my PDA at all.