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Japanese Balloon Battle
mw2040 writes "Slate reports on a little-known method used by the Japanese during WWII - hydrogen-filled paper balloons with deadly payloads floated without a guidance-system across the Pacific. Both amazing low-tech warfare and a cautionary tale about censorship during wartime. More links (even one for our neighbors to the North) (shamelessly stolen from the article)."
Unless you actually read a book or watched Discovery channel in the past 20 years. I've seen that on there tons of times. And I read a story about it in high school which was almost 6 years ago. Maybe little known if you only know a little?
The BBC (or it may have been Channel 4 in the UK) did a programme about these balloons, explaining how the Japanese used the Jet Stream, and a clockwork mechanism to drop sandbags allowing the balloon to drop out of the stream once over the States - I believe many ended up in Canada.
I heard about this in my world history classes in high school and college, in my Japanese history class (well no shit I'd hear about it there), and on several occasions since, and I've never once gone actively looking for this information.
I think it's more well-known than most minor elements of WWII.
... the pinnacle of the science of precision bombing. Can't really see it catching on.
Interestingly, one of these was also found in California.
(That page says the device was taken to Moffetf Field in Sunnyvale CA, but Moffett is and always has been in Mountain View. I believe it was sometimes described as being in Sunnyvale because the military guys were sensitive to the perception of 'Mountains' being anywhere near their airship base. No reference, just remember this from many an airshow..)
Hydrogen filled Paper Ballons? That sound like a floating fireball to me..
I'm sure I read somewhere (or saw on Discovery) that the only mainland US casualties from WW2 were caused by the bombs carried by these balloons.
They managed to cross the pacific by using the jetstream IIRC.. at a time when that particular weather system was relatively unknown.
Bum, I can't log in.. I'm normally MegatronUK... too many damn passwords...
Nothing wrong with censorship during a war for survival. First order of the day is always to survive.
One thing you will not find in Japanese schoolbooks is an historical account of the massacre at Nanking. In 1937, the Japanese attacked China and killed thousands of innocents in Nanking. Today, it's as if it never happened. In fact, I have never learned of this myself until very recently.
This kind of censorship is what we need to be aware of today. Historical records must not be skewed so that they may not tell all sides of the story - always make sure you know where your sources are coming from. This is one of the many reasons why history repeats itself.
More and more people thinks that high technology is much more efficient to win a war. I don't think it is necessarily true. :)
On the contrary, i think that low tech can be much more lethal because of their simplicity. High technology requires people to be trained and efficient, while low tech can be done nearly by everyone, increasing the deadliness and the frequency of those attacks.
Again, don't underestimate the use of high technology devices as a simple low tech weapon. For instance, dropping a PC on someone can be deadly
Pelops
Haha. Maybe you forgot about the American firebombing of Japan? Those didn't cause theoretical killings, innocent people actually died. Don't even get me started on the atomic bombs.
Don't want anyone getting ideas about payload delivery from inflatables in space.
The Japanese had created an interesting bio-weapon during WWII, though they only "tested" it on the Chinese. They figured out a way to create a bomb that would explode scattering plague infested fleas everywhere. It was quite an engineering marvel, even if the results were sickening(to this day, parts of rural China will still periodically get outbreaks of the plague because of these weapons labs), they figured out how to make a bomb explode without killing the fleas. However they never really used it against the Americans, maybe in fear of what the retribution would be.
As the case with Nazi scientists, the head Japanese scientists who worked on Japan's bioweapons during the war avoided war crimes prosecutions by coming over to the US after the war to help in the new "war" against the Soviets.
To this end the Germans disassembled a light bomber, brought it to the arctic in a sub...put it together and tried to hit a munitions facility north of Minneapolis. It ran out of fuel and crashed within 10 miles of the suspected target. Imagine the psychological impact of a heartland attack like that.
Of course there is the well known U-boat activity from Florida to Maine. People living on the coast saw many instances of ship aflame.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
photos and more info here and an interesting photo of them being shot down from a plane.
Intersting stuff.
Anyway, these bombs weren't intended for a civilian population (the chance of hitting somebody directly would be astronomically low), they would be useful to start forest fires.
I'm finding it hard to believe that this comment isn't a troll.
Either that or it displays a very real ignorence of the eithics of bombing during WWII.
WWII was an ugly war. Every nation involved did thing which were, then and now, considered unacceptable. Nations still do today. Unfortunatly many still operate on the principle that the end justifies the means. I think this is actually one of the tenents of Neoconservatisim.
May the Maths Be with you!
It seems that ingenious Brits were ready to send pidgeons over the front line on balloons as well. I can't quite remember what for - they were either carrier pidgeons for use by secret agents or they carried tiny bombs on them to cause havoc amongst the enemy forces (and I guess they wanted to be sure those ones weren't carrier/racing pidgeons.. /.er can find it!
I wish I could find a website for you.. maybe another Brit
This has been reported many times over the past few years.
Some of the interesting facts regarding this is that the Japanese discovered the Jet stream during the war, using it to distribute the balloons to the US.
Another interesting fact is that the US traced where exactly the balloons were being launched from by small samples of dirt that had contaminated the payloads. The US used pre-war mineralogical surveys to find the exact beach they were being lauched from, and eventually took care of it, so to speak.
Wait a minute. I got it. You could play with your magic nose goblins.
Governments give out all kinds of excuses for censorship. That it will "aid the enemy" or "induce panic". In reality they just don't want bad press.
Censorship is a very thorny issue, but we need total freedom of the press for our society to remain free. The story of "embedded" reporters during the Iraq war was a case in point. Embedded was a euphamisim for censored and reporters felt this. Their skewed reports helped continue the culture of lies and exaggeration that prevailed in the lead up to the war. People were misinformed about that war. From start to finish. Far better for us all to get the story , warts and all, rather than have it dripped and filtered to us by biased parties.
Interestingly, the prevailence of high tech media helped retard the effect of censorship during the war. It was difficult, but no impossible, for the army to censor reporters for very long. The press center in Quatar became redundant as feeds were transmitted directly from the field.
High tech media is also the ONLY reason that we are seeing images of torture from prisons in Iraq.
The media also practices self-censorship by limiting the coverage of disturbing imagery. I think they should give people more credit and stop listening to the easily offended.
The truth is never more distorted than during times of war. But this is the most critical time in which the truth needs to be shown, in all its
truth. We might like like the truth, but we NEED to hear it. We have to hold a mirror up to ourselves. Otherwise we'll start to believe all the rethoric and that would be a vert bad thing.
May the Maths Be with you!
Just as unguided as the 1000 plane raids staged over Germany. As unguided as the incendiary raids over Japan. Just because we're th good guys didn't mean we didn't do the same thing.
Another interesting fact is that the US traced where exactly the balloons were being launched from by small samples of dirt that had contaminated the payloads.
They didn't have to go over the balloons to find dirt samples, it wasn't quite so "CSI" as that... the balloons had several sandbags to provide ballast, and the sand that filled those is what gave away the launch location via the mineralogical surveys.
~Philly
John McPhee wrote about this in The New Yorker, 29 January 1996, 52:60. It's a really neat story on how Geologists figured out where exactly in Japan the balloons were being produced based on the sand used in the ballast the ballons held to make the long float across the Pacific.
This is how we first learned about the jet stream as well.
I'm pretty sure the story is in Annals of the Former World, a 1996 book by McPhee, all about geeky geology stuff, but it's a really interesting read.
My father told me stories about these ballons when I was a kid, during WWII. The ballons where kind of a running joke at that time. At least that is how he made it sound. Apperently some did actual explode, but of course the NEVER hit anything.
There was no mention from him or any one else in the room about cencership. Which leads me to wonder was there REALY any goverment cover up? Or was it just not importent enought for any one to realy care, one way or the other.
There are many much more IMPORTANT things that where covered up. Like the U.S. army company whiped out by thier own troops durring a landing.,
anon, anon, anon
Who cares about ballons?
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Every nation involved did thing which were, then and now, considered unacceptable.
And ironically, these days we consider ourselves 'more civilised'.
After the Rape of Nanking, its very hard to have any sympathy for any Japanese. [my emphasis]
Because all Japanese supported it? I was under the - apparently mistaken - impression that pre-war and wartime Japan was a dictatorship. Or is this another stunning example of generalising to avoid making real points?
This is where the serious fun begins.
Is this news not 60 years old?
The pacific war start post 42. Germany was bombing London before that: 1940 - 1941. It was the BIG man Hitler, who realy started.....
Sadly, we just finished it....
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Not that it worked out very well, but I still think the American's bombing method was much more interesting, and probably a little less well-known. (Though not at all arcane. The last time I mentioned it at least one fourteen-year-old already knew of it.)
Only by coincidence did the Yanks discover that the bombs really were coming from Japan. The sand used in the sandbags was analysed and turned out very unique. However, as the Americans had done a complete survey of Japan's beaches (your granddad's tax dollars at work), they were able to narrow it down to a sand composition at a single beach in Japan.
Curious, a couple planes were sent to investigate...
So until 1940-whatever... No idea the jet stream existed.
:wq
I thought the balloon bombs were pretty famous, simply because they caused the only casualties (from enemy action) on the mainland USA during the whole of the war. A picknicking family found one of the bombs, which hadn't gone off, and er...tampered with it until it did, killing them.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
They were not designed to hit anything. They were design to drop and explode causing a fire in forest. Doing this would of caused a diversion of resources. They did cause a few small fires, it was a wet year.
IIRC under 10 American civilians did die because of picking them up and it exploding on them. Big news at the time because it was the only successfull attack on the US main land.
You mean the Norwegian?
Antti S. Brax - Old school - http://www.iki.fi/asb/
The Canadian war museum, http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/cwme.asp has one on such captured balloon on display. They also have a map showing where each balloon landed. The source of the balloons were eventually tracked down by studying the sand they used for ballast - it had a unique composition particular to one area in Japan. From this information they were able to later able to pinpoint the location the factory and put it out of commission.
The Japanese were the first to discover the existance of the jet stream, and take advantage of it.
My rights don't need management.
...weapons i would have to say that the pigeon guided missile is my favourite.
I had an imaginary sig once, he said I was a loser and ran off.
The Plutonium Files is an account written by the journalist who uncovered and eventually forced the declassification of the story of about 60 years of secret radiation-exposure experiments by the US government on thousands of unknowing civilians and military personnel, including e.g. feeding pregnant women at a hospital a 'new infant formula' to test the effects of radiation on the foetus. These programmes have now actually been declassified and apologised for by the Department of Energy under Clinton, but few people actually know about them and they are definitely not written about in textbooks!
That is an accident. I wonder what I ment by "hit anything...." Hmmmm.....
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
I too had heard about this before - not sure where, possibly in history class in school actually!!!
I hadn't heard about the casualties before.
Until the US govt. starts setting up a national firewall like China, there's not much excuse for people not getting to the bottom of news stories. There's all sides available on the Net, and quite often the original source! Hey, I mean, even Satellite TV is like this (and is presumably less blockable unless Satellite dishes or pointing them in certain directions is banned). During the Iraq war I had my domestic Irish anti-war bias TV, the balanced but not always comprehensive BBC, the scary channel (FOX News) and I could even switch to Al-Arabiya (and Al-jazeera at that time) on Sky Digital for the reports being rebroadcast on Sky News and others! Ominously, one can't receive the Arab channels "in the clear" anymore.
-- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
As for land grabs, while there were a number of prominent Americans that advocated annexing Canada in those days, President Madison wasn't one of them. Rather, it was rabble rousers west of the Appalachians and south of Mason-Dixon.
Luke, help me take this mask off
There was an oil refinery near Santa Barabara that was shelled by a Japanese U-boat during WWII, as well. Just because the government says it didn't happen, doesn't mean it didn't actually happen.
I thought some of the ballast was seawater. The navy had a large collection of samples (mainly pre-war) from various ports and could identify the launch location that way. I could see sand being shipped with the assembled balloon some distance to the launch location, but not water.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Why do most mainstream news articles seem to censor themselves by giving us six paragraphs of patting one self ( the author that is) on the back and rhetorical questions before hitting the meat of the story?
About half way down the article they finally mention the balloon bombs but by that time I was already bored to death. Maybe the Japanese should have used dullard journalism on us... it would have been more effective.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Dictatorship or not, says nothing about public support of the military and the war.
After the Rape of Nanking, its very hard to have any sympathy for any Japanese. -- O.B. Laden.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
They were busy in Nanking
After My Lai, it's very hard to have any sympathy for any Americans.
-- O. B. Laden
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
As opposed to someone using the federal court system to impose an change in election rules to game the outcome of a Presidential election? The change being that you're actually meant to count the votes correctly (remember: the 'Time'-sponsored recount showed Gore won those counties in Florida after all)
Just curious.
"Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
Your US-centricity is showing. Canada just had a 60th anniversary for D-day in which the Canadian troops were able to drive further into the mainland than any other troops. The US is not the only one who fought and died in WW2. Note that this article is made by a Canadian whose Grandfather fought, Geez!
Stay tuned for new sig...
Indeed. But under a dictatorship - and under the pre-war military dictatorship in Japan - opposition to the military tends to be aggresively put down. I'd suggest it speaks volumes about the Japanese character that from earflier epsiodes in China and Korea, up to as late as 1945, there was some - understandably limited - opposition to the military.
Live in a dictatorship for a while - then criticize the silence of those who suffered it. As others have said, it's not always easy to speak out when you're afraid.
This is where the serious fun begins.
Yeah, according to wikipedia, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloons], by the time the US analyzed the sand in the weights for diatoms and were sure they were from beaches in Japan, the staging areas were already bombed. Oh, and I really like the people drafted to fabricate them eating the yam paste because they were starving -- classic.
Actually of course I should say it started for the USA in 42. Japan was having all kinds of fun before that.
Actually come to think of it I am pretty sure that Japan bombed civilian targets in China, long before the Germans.
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Biowarfare was the big worry. As a carrier for a livestock or agriculture disease (or even people), one successful payload could have caused a lot of disruption. Look at what one case of Mad Cow disease did recently. The allies were certainly doing their own research into stuff like Rinderpest and delivery systems, so they knew it was possible.
Hmm, interesting. I just Googled and rinderpest to check the spelling. I was about to search on "rinderpest biowarfare" and it occured to me that if I was running things (eek), I'd make sure searches like that got filed somewhere.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
The thousands of Japanese troops who took part deserved to be tried for war-crimes.
The reamining million Japanese civilians who were either (a) ignorant of Japanese crimes, even actions, in Nanking, (b) opposed to Japanese occupation of part of China, or (c) apathetic should not be lumped together with those who commited crimes. By the same token, "all US citizens should be condemned for My Lai". Bullshit. The original post was a generalisation: God, I hate fools who extrapolate and deal in stereotypes.
This is where the serious fun begins.
I believe that one Nazi bomber made a mistake, and dropped its bomb-load in the wrong area. Churchill (who had no way of knowing that it was an isolated incident) responded, and the Blitz began.
Hitler was evil, but he was also a pragmatist (or at least was surrounded, in the early years of the war, by smarter people than he). His goal was to invade Britain, not waste munitions bombing soft targets. He wanted hard targets - airfields and radar stations, etc - taken out ready for Operation Sealion.
Of course, later on in the war, Hitler was more than happy to wreak "vengeance" on Britain with the V-weapons. By then pragmatism was irrelevant.
If there's one lesson I've taken from the Blitz it's the obvious one: In Wars, Innocent People Die.
This is where the serious fun begins.
We had a fella from Wyclyffe Bible Translators come out and give a demo of what technology is being used in the missionary field. One of his exhibits was a red plastic bag -- looked somthing like a WalMart bag, that had the entire book of John printed on it. Missionaries are filling these bags w/ helium and sending them into Korea and other places.
Unfortunately many still operate on the principle that the end justifies the means.
Heaven knows I'm not singling you out, but catchphrases like this are devoid of meaningfulness. They are about as meaningful as "The gostak distims the doshes".
Some ends justify some means. Some ends justify more means than other ends do. News flash. There are shades of grey.
So let's say you think "it is wrong to kill" (humans, that is). So an innocent 6 year old girl is taken hostage and is about to be beheaded slowly and painfully, then the body abused. You know this from prior deeds, and because the perpetrator announces he will do it.
You have a clean shot, almost guaranteed to instantly kill the perpetrator and free the unharmed girl. Do you do what you say is wrong, "kill"?
For all I know you might be a Quaker or other pacifist. If you answer "no", that is your choice, but I am thinking here, chances are your answer will be "yes".
I think one means just became justified by one end.
That's neighbours, eh.
Not many people know (well maybe they do, I dunno) that the U.S. invaded what is now Canada in 1811. We probably would control that territory today if the British invasion of 1812 hadn't interrupted and diverted our troops.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
ahh, I thought it was just some dirt that got in the payload. Didn't think about the ballast, which makes more sense.
Wait a minute. I got it. You could play with your magic nose goblins.
I'm English actually. I didn't mean to imply that Canadian troops didn't fight and die in WW2, I just wasn't aware of any examples of battles between Canadian and Japanese soldiers (this reply says they did happen.) I'm well aware that countries other than the US and UK declared war on the axis countries, and people from neutral countries fought for the allies, like my Irish grandfather who was in the British RAF. Both my grandfathers were in the military in WW2, the Irish one was involved in the planning of operation Overlord and the other fought in France from D-day+14.
Decode these
The part that makes me scratch my head is, people actually express a mix of indignation and boredom over the original sources. What they seem to want to watch instead is talking heads -- "pundits" -- spewing nonsense.
Imagine the difference with something like this balloon story. You could interview the Japanese policy makers and have them describe why they chose to do it when they did. You could look at blueprints and documents, talk to the makers, and see how the things worked. You could compare this to other intercontinental weapons -- interesting angle -- to see how their (potential) use might be different. World War II as the genesis of "strategic" weapons and the end of the distinction between combatant and non-combatant populations, you know?
But no, we'd put lots of bilious fools on TV to remind us that the Japanese hated America, or some such stupidity. Because supposedly, the other stuff, the real history, is boring. Or so our TV ratings would seem to suggest. Cut to political ad in which Japanese face "morphs" into the face of myu political opponent. It's depressing.
But then, I actually watch C-Span...
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
You need a lot of chemicals to kill any number of people. It took over 1 tonne per soldier killed in WWI.
And remember the Tokyo subway gas attack and how ineffective it was? The same amount of C4 in a place as crowded as that would have done a lot more damage.
Why do you think terrorists stick to explosives and guns?
Ummm, they were British citizens. Just as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, etc. were British citizens until the revolution. Canada was still a British colony at the time (until 1867).
Things to do today: See list of things to do yesterday
Pretty ingenious!
Thinking of starting a business in Minnesota? Me too! mnsmall.biz
Sadly, those days are over. Canada's military is a joke, milquetoasts like Sweden and Finland are better these days.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Maybe it's just me and my coffee-addled sensibilities, but when I saw Balloon Battle! I immediately thought of Kitchen Stadium
I'd like to see what Iron Chef Chen Kenicihi could make out of those. Go Chen-san!
- chrish
Though this article was intended to demonstrate the dangers of wartime censorship, the actual history demonstrates a quite different viewpoint.
The ballon attack plan was never to cut power lines and blow up family picnics. The Japanese had been working for many years on the effective use of biological weapons, and had every intention of using them with the balloons once they had some idea of whether they were reaching the US. Blowing up picnics should have provided them immediate, specific targeting feedback through the US media - much better targeting intelligence than would have been provided by a bizarre outbreak of bubonic plague in the Pacific Northwest.
Slate's having compared this to burying memos and hiding prisoner abuse scandals, secrets that are kept solely to protect political interests rather than military ones, demonstrates not only a catastrophic failure to understand history, but further weakens the credibility of anyone speaking out against that very same modern politically driven censorship.
Nice going, Slate.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
No, once again read your history. The blitz of LONDON a civilian city started in 41.
Yes you are making good points. Yes in the yearly part of the Blitz, Airfields where on top of the list, followed by other stratigic targets.
Hitler went "crazy" and wanted to break the Londoners spirit by bombing them into the stone age. This was in 1940-1941. All of this did happen before we fire bombed Germany, Before V-Weapons, before Pearl Harbor, (It was horrible).
But I am just sort of upset about your comment that the alies invented this, when it realy isn't true.
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Boy, now you are just getting me depressed. Now if all major conflicts could just be determined on the ice we could really kick ass.
Stay tuned for new sig...
What a troll.
Until our (u.s.a) ill-planned assault on the Iraqi people, it's highly likely Canada would have stood by the U.S. even if Britain had declared open war on us.
Fat chance of that now, with people like you bashing them at every opportunity.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=sant a+barbara+submarine+attack
Looks like it happened in February of 1942.
Firstly, Little boy and fat man were both A-bombs, the N-bomb was developed far later and never used in actual warfare. Secondly they wern't guided, they were parachute retarded. Thirdly one of the reasons Hiroshima was chosen over Kyoto as the target of the first bomb is that Hiroshima had a larger amount of military infrastruture.
Forthly, the Japaneese started the war in the pacific. They invaded China, Malasia, Singapore and New Guinea amongst others. They sunk British and American merchant ships, they murdered millions of chineese civilians in cold blood, they carpet bombed Darwin, they starved POWs and they torpedoed American warships without declaring war. Basically they started an evil war, and the Americans had to nuke them in order to get them to stop. This is a little different than sending baloons over the pacific in order to help their tyranny over Asia to continue.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
You quite succintly expressed a very common sentiment up here.
Scattering Bible verse covered plastic bags is littering. Beside being unsightly, plastic bags can also be deadly to wildlife. Littering Korea (either North or South) with plastic bags is not constructive.
On June 24 1943, the English fishing port of Grimsby was bombed with experimental "butterfly" anti-personnel bombs. A total news blackout on this raid caused the Luftwaffe to abandon butterfly bombs after one raid, since they thought that the devices were ineffective. Quite the opposite was true -- many people were killed or injured by the butterfly bombs. Unexploded devices were still being found in and around Grimsby until quite recently.
In March 1941, the Scottish town of Clydebank was razed by German bombers. The first news that people in the nearby city of Glasgow heard of it was when survivors started walking in from Clydebank.
30/= thousands.
how can you compare the actions of a battalion or army to the actions of a platoon or squadron??
do you see the difference.
War is constantly changing. As weapons grow more precise, the death tolls rise and fall. They rise when weapon technology makes existing tactics very high in manpower cost and fall as tactics change to account for new tech. Imagine for a moment, fighting a 18th century pitched battle at 30 m using modern bolt action or even lever action weapons?
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
My point is: that one should not condemn an entire nation for the actions of part - even all - of the armed forces. I'm not sure I understand the additional points you're raising about whether I understand the difference between actions commited by {arbitrary quantity of soldiers} and {another arbitrary quantity of soldiers}.
This is where the serious fun begins.
Indeed. The event I was refering to occured in 1940, as part of the build up to Operation Sealion (the abortive invasion of Britain that never occured).
PS. I studied history in a British University. Does that count? Though I appreciate you telling me that London is a civilian city... ;)
This is where the serious fun begins.
Every so often one of the local papers has a article
about the balloon bomb that killed a family in southern Oregon.
Fort Stevens (Astoria) was also shelled early in the war.
Part of local folklore:
balloon bombs
Fort Stevens
exploding whale crushes car
Columbus Day storm
So then you still believe that:
You're aware that Allied forces pioneered bombing civilian populations
Hu? I can accept that we where first in the pacific theater. But in general, Bombing of civilian populations, was not done by the allied side first.
Its just a strange statement and not accurate.
-Richard
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
I think that Mikhail Kalashnikov--the designer of the AK-47--really lucked out when he designed that famous assault rifle.
Despite his denials, I still believe that Kalashnikov may have seen captured examples of the Sturmgewehr 43 and 44 weapons that the Germans used during World War II and applied some of the German weapon concepts into the AK-47. But the AK-47 incorporated one thing that made it famous: its firing chamber mechanism was designed to be extremely reliable even in the worst conditions of mud, snow and high humidity. The result was a superb weapon, one that was much-lauded for its extreme reliability and reasonable accuracy in the long-barrel versions.
Meanwhile, the M16 was designed to such tight tolerances that it made the weapon quite susceptible to firing chamber jamming in poor operating conditions, as the Americans found out much to their chagrin in the mud and high humidity of Vietnam. That's why the M16 evolved into the much more reliable M16A1, which had a number of design changes to improve its reliability under poor conditions.
By the way, the appearance of the M16 made to Soviets want to develop an assault rifle that used smaller caliber ammunition; the result was the AK-74, another outstanding weapon, though one that was developed surprisingly with some opposition from Mr. Kalashikov, who thought going to the 5.45 mm calibre cartridge wasn't such a good idea.
It's not the fact that *you* think it's important that bugs people, it's that we keep seeing Canadians claim that the fact that the White House was burned in the war of 1812 is some great secret. Dolly Madison hightailing it out of the White House as British troops closed in, George Washington's portrait under her arm, is one of the most retold incidents in American history. "Why is the White House white?" (because it was repainted after the burning) is a common trivia question.
We know. Really.
They just know when and how to use it, meaning that they don't use it often.
Have you forgotten that Canadians died helping us (USA) in Afganistan (you know, our war that was actually necissary)?
Also I can say, as an america amatuer pilot, who has recent experience working in the aerospace/defence industry (I did F22 engine development), who has great pride in the abilities of our air force, that Canadian pilots are probably the best trained, most skilled bunch of aviators on the planet.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
This is /., so I'll trot out the trite quotes.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
That wasn't my comment, though I did say that Allied forces - inadvertently - were the first to deliberately bomb civilians: after one Luftwaffe bomber released its bomb load in error over a civilian area (Braintree in Essex, I think).
Just to clarify: the Luftwaffe during 1940 were targetting RAF fields, and did not want to waste munitions bombing civilian targets. (RAF) Bomber Command also did not want to attack civilian targets - partly due to humanitarian concerns, partly due to the sheer lack of munitions in Britain at the time. Bomber Command's policy changed once it was believed that the Luftwaffe were deliberately attacking civilian targets.
Lest I be accused of being an apologies for Hitler, I condemn whole-heartedly Nazi attrocities. The Luftwaffe has already bombed cities in Spain, Poland, the Low Countries and France. The reason they didn't - yet (1939, 1940) - in Britain was due to Hitler's perverse idea that Britain could be "swayed". Fortunately he was wrong; unfortunately it didn't matter in the long-run. And that's the moral: In War, Innocent People Die. No matter how careful either side is.
This is where the serious fun begins.
There is an annual canoe tournament between Norwegian, Danish, Swedish and US Navy Seals. To the best of my knowledge, the US Navy Seals has never finished better than fourth despite carrying better and more expensive equipment than any other participant nation.
Would be interesting to have the Russian Spetsnaz participate in that tournament as well, for nothing else than to demonstrate how easily they would win I suppose.
Mod me as troll and see if I care...
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
The bombs were dropped on Japan for two reasons: 1) quick way to end war in Japan to avoid massive American casualties 2) clearly demonstrate that the US had nuclear capabilities to deter Stalin.
If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
Of course, the Canadians didn't have the same level of resistance on their beach that the Americans experienced on Omaha beach - so your point that the Canadians were somehow 'better' is false.
However, they would have their own trial taking Caen (was supposed to be taken on D-Day - but wasn't secured for 6 weeks, I believe) - running up against SS Panzer units in a drawn out slugfest that ended up leveling the city and bloodying the Canadians badly.
Later, the Canadians would make a name for themselves during intense fighting in Holland, earning the 3rd Canadian division the name 'Water Rats'.
Everyone who fought on the Allied side in WWII should be commended for their sacrifices, regardless of what country they come from. Taking some isolated situation out of the context of history, and trying to use that to bolster a falacious argument does not do them justice.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Here's an amazon page with a book on the subject
Yeah, lets not forget that Russia lost more people in WW2 than every other country combined.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is a wise man. He who knows not and knows not he knows not is a fool.
It's spelled "balloons", not "ballons".
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
One of these bombs landed near the intersection of 50th street and Underwood in Omaha, Nebraska. There is a commemorative plate on the drugstore at that corner describing the event. I can maybe take a picture of the plate later today and post it if people would like
FYI this location is about six or seven blocks from Warren Buffet's house.
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Uh, I've seen tons of stuff on these... of course I'm in OREGON, where one of these things actually killed several members of a family.
I think what he was talking about was American soldiers using confiscated AK47s in Iraq.
As the insurgency grew, more armor/artilery/other non-infantry units were being used for infantry type duties. I believe the 4 man crew of a M1A1 tank gets 2 M-14s (shorter version of the 16) and 4 pistols. Americans were picking up AK47s because they were the only automatic rifles they could get their hands on in short order. Many american soldiers also like the AK47 more than their M16s because it has more "stopping power" at close range (particularly when the enemy does not have body armor). And when you are fighting street corner, to street corner, you don't need the increased accuracy of the M-16, you need to make sure who you shoot goes down, and stays down.
There was a story about this on NPR(?) a month or so ago.
Don't get me wrong, the M-16 is a great gun, but it is not superior to the AK47 in all ways (nor is the AK47 superior to the M-16 in all ways). Get the right tool for the job.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
September 11 didn't, however, have military value. It was just intended to kill random people, and make people sad. If, however, there had been a war on, it probably could have been considered a valid attack against economic infrastructure.
They were striking the decision making body of the United States (the people, as in "We The People..."). To demostrate that we are vulnirable to their attacks, and to state that the policies of our governement (elected by We The People) were unacceptable to them. Also to Bin-Laden and company, the war had already been on for about 10 years.
They understand what most americans rambling on and on about attacks against the "innocent" don't. In all contries with a representative democracy (By The People..) the populus is no more "innocent" than the government, or the military, as the governement and the military are just extensions of the peoples will and power. The only people who are truely "innocent" in the USA are those who are too young to vote. If you are of voting age and an american, all of the blood spilt at the hands of our government and military is on your hands.
The blood is on my hands too.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Interesting! There is also an annual NATO competition which typically involves an amphibious landing followed by a two day trek through snow (all of these events happen at a high latitude like Greenland, Iceland, or Scandanavia) to "rescue" a hostage being kept at a base in the mountains.
En route to, or at the base, the teams are met with full on resistance (every once in a while someone is killed and just about every time someone is seriously injured). Once the hostage has been "rescued" there is another two day trek back to the pickup rendez-vous which requires swimming over one mile from shore in freezing water and strong tides to a vertical recovery point.
The U.S. SEALS have never failed to win this competition!
Liberator Pistols, as used in ww2. Just make them better than those original ones, and use whichever caliber is most prevalent in north korea. The little comic that came with the original one was pretty stark and to the point. It showed joe oppressed person sneaking up to some local soldier of the heinous regime (back then obviously the nazis), popping him in the head, then taking the now "liberated" rifle.
We can put better stuff on /. I am sure.
the various people other than americans on the ground over there AREN'T aware of what the troop movements are? The only thing that media censorship does nowadays is to keep US civilian population uninformed and brainweashed by only getting approved propoganda, it doesn't stop one iota of data getting to anyone else who wants it "over there". Think about if they had as complete a lock on media and communications as they had in ww2, we wouldn't know about the torture cases right now. Look how many people are still connecting iraq weith 9-11, because of offical US government FUD, lies, propoganda and the willing compliance of some of the mass media initially. If it was censored completely, they would still be getting away with all the lies they used to start the war, as it is now, because we have cracked censorship, at least some of the truth is getting out and people can be free-er to make some hard choices.
The deal is, the US government is as big a pack of liars and murderers as any other government out there, therefore, people need to know what's going on so they can cease being brainwashed and get some more points of view and some more data to decide if what we are doing as a nation is correct or not. I mean, just how many exposed lies is it going to take to get the point across that they ARE liars and there's a lot more going on than what they admit to? The day after 9-11 we had the worlds sympathy and support, now we have the worlds condemnation and disgust and mistrust, and it's preciely FROM various peoples around the world being able to beat back government censorship that this has come about. It's GOOD to be able to counteract red chinese FUD, lies and cernsorship, and it's GOOD to be able to do it in other places like the USA and england and everyplace else. Enoughs enough on the national jingoism and on wars for profit, and being proud of being brainwashed, save it for the sports games, not for something as important as wars and national policy, no matter who starts them, no matter which "party" says what, more good info = better. Fighting censorship is the best way to start to end this forced madness that infests generation after generation.
Yeah.. Reminds me of the joint training operation between Swedish armed forces and NATO forces in the mountain range between Sweden and Norway (was told this by my Captain when doing military service).
A platoon of 'Mountain Seals' (Fjälljägare) from Sweden (probably Arvidsjaur) captured the whole company of NATO troups (Seals outnumbered about 6:1) in less than 24 hours. Gives me SOOOO much faith in NATO troupes I positively glow.
I suppose it just goes to show that having significant financial backing doesn't automatically make good soldiers.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
The Edo Museum in Tokyo has a great exhibit that shows the Japanese view of WWII. There is a balloon bomb hanging from the ceiling, and a map of where they think they hit. Most of the impacts on their map are in Canada (sorry about that, eh). There is also plenty to see about the firebombing, and a mockup of a home, with "wishful thinking" fire fighting equipment. The museum is a must see if you are Tokyo, and is beside a Sumo museum. -aggles
...before the Discovery Channel stuff.
"I'll bet you the Japanese bombed the U.S. MAINLAND during WWII and innocent civilians were killed because of it."
The answer (copied from some random web page):
"The only fatalities from enemy activity on the mainland of North America occurred May 5, 1945, in Bly, near southeastern Oregon's Fremont National Forest, when a church group encountered one of the explosive bombs from a balloon. The explosion resulted in six deaths of civilians."
Certain Japanese videogames...
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Some slightly interesting information meant to lure you in so you can listen to a rant about Abu Ghraib.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Alliances change over time for better or worse -- they'll get over it one of these decades
'Nuff said.
What does this have to do with missionaries littering a country with plastic bags. Do the N. Koreans shoot litterbugs? The Liberator Pistols, although crap, seem to have been built just fine for their intended use. The most prevelant handgun ammunition in N. Korea would be either 7.63mm Mauser or 9x19mm. The prevelant caliber of ammunition in N. Korea is probably irrelevant as the 10 .45 cal. rounds included with the Liberator Pistol are probably more than adequate for the pistol's intended use. The oppressor depicted on the instruction sheet was much more likely to have been Japanese than Nazi as most of the Liberator Pistols were distributed to China and the Phillipines.
Nope, sorry. A team from a state with no natural ice just beat Calgary Flames for the Cup.
Non gratis rodentus anus
In 1940, an anti-aircraft barrage balloon was ripped loose by a storm and drifted to Sweeden. The drifting steel wire caught on a power cable and shut down most of Stockholm's metro system. From this came the idea for Project Outward.
The balloons were much smalled than the Japanese Fugos as they only needed to cross the North Sea. Each carried an incendary bomb intended to start forrest fires or a trailing steel wire intended to short-out and destroy power grids. Several tens of thousand were launched from Harwich in eastern England from 1941 to 1944. AFIK, no serious fires were ever started but at least one German power station was overloaded and destroyed.
Full details are in The Moby Dick Project: Reconnaissance Balloons over Russia by Curtis Peebles. This book mainly deals with the Cold-War American Genetrix spy balloons but has a chapter on the Fugos and Project Outward.
well damn! now we don't have the Canadian military to back us up if we're attacked! whatever shall we do!?
I googled for it as well, coming up with nothing. I was told about the tournament by a class-mate that did the Seal (Kustjägare) training during military service. I will try and locate more information about said tournament. I was in looking through www.armen.mil.se earlier, but got distracted, so will look for stuff about this tournament later.
What is in the tournament? They are dropped off, somewhere in the archipelago outside Stockholm, given a destination and an objective, and then they are on their way. Two guys, one canoe per team and whatever equipment they have elected to take with them. Not sure if there are other troups looking for these guys while they are 'in transit'.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
> the Swedish miliary is not battle-proven
Tell that to the guys doing UN service in Kosovo. I have lost a close friend that I did military service with, down there.
I resent your remark about the skills of the Swedish military. We might not have a salaried professional military, that is still no reason to underestimate it. Just FYI, there are only two pilots in the world that has managed to get a missile lock on the SR-71 Blackbird, one is an American pilot, the other pilot just so happens to be Swedish.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
Not exactly the pinnacle of the science of precision bombing. Can't really see it catching on.
Imperial Japan intended to switch from incendiary payloads to biological payloads. Anthrax spores, fleas infested with plague. Imperial Japan committed thousands of atrocities in China researching these weapons. And by "atrocities" I don't mean the modern definition of humiliation and emabarassing photos, I am using the real definition of the word as in dropping infested fleas on a village, when the plague took hold sending doctors to "help" the sick, and performing live vivisection (cutting into living animals for scientific research) without anesthesia on these victims back at the lab. A secondary delivery system developed was using submarine launched aircraft. A ceramic bomb casing was used so that a smaller explosive charge could be used to disperse infected fleas, the smaller charge permitted more fleas to survive. I think San Diego or San Francisco were early targets, but I am not sure. The atomic bombings preempted these attacks. You may debate whether the atomic bombs or the Russian invasion of Manchuria prompted the surrender, but the atomic bombings left little doubt in the minds of those researching a biological attack on the US what our response would be.
Unfortunately the US let those involved with the atrocities in China go. These criminals traded their excellent notes for their freedom.
The balloon delivery is still feasible today. "Funny" is the last thing anyone with half a brain would label your comment.
> And which units comprised the NATO troops?
.50.
.50 Barrett would not have concerned me particularly much. RSV grenades or AT mines would be higher on my list of things to worry about.
.50 cal fire would be to saturate the area with 7.62mm machine-gun fire until cannon was loaded with correct grenade.
Fairly standard units I would imagine if they let a whole damn company get captured without inflicting any loss on the opponents.
> by your use of of 'Mountain Seal' I suppose they are of high calibre.
The "Mountain Seals" are not your average Joe Soldier, that is for sure. They are the type of guys that will parashute in behind enemy lines, hide for a few weeks, fire a single shot (usually to take out some high officer) and then ski back to friendly territory just to do it all over again. I have more respect for these guys than I have for the Navy equivalent.
> On the other hand, why don't you go head to head with the SAS, Delta, or a Seal Team?
The SAS (UK Special Forces) are very very good, that I will not dispute. They also have a characteristic that I admire very much. They are not arrogant stuck up twits just because they are elite troups.
> I'll tell you why, because your soft-bodied little self would have his soul owned at 1000 meters by a Barrett
In the duty I performed in military service, the
The stock response to
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
That's great: Canadians should rightfully be proud.
But, remind me again exactly what Canada's participation in D-Day at Normandy had to do with their participation in the war against Japan, which is clearly what the OP was referring to.
Perhaps your "The only WWII that mattered was in Europe"-centricity is showing?
He who knows not and knows he knows not is a wise man. He who knows not and knows not he knows not is a fool.
This bit of Daoist(?) wisdom was more elegantly (or at least more succinctly) stated by Joseph Campbell, who said, "He who says he knows, doesn't know. He who says he doesn't know, knows".
Yes, offtopic. Sorry.
'Your brain is God.' -- Dr. Timothy Leary
Post 9/11 I remember commentary on how this was the first major strike in the US from an enemy-- as if that whole British/Canadian invasion and burning down the White House hadn't occured. But that's old history.
But more recently, during WWII German submarines made it fairly far up the St. Lawrence Seaway. One of my grand-uncles was killed on Canadian soil by German soldiers from a sub. I don't know if this also happened to American soldiers- if it did I didn't read about it in my history books.
In addition, the Germans came fairly close to being able to bomb Canada and the US from the north. German subs were going into James Bay and dropping off portable metal runways: economics kept them from finishing that project and bringing in special planes. Had they finished, German planes could have hit Chicago or Toronto from a remote launch point less than 700 miles away. (Another of my Canadian relatives saw the remants of these German runways when he was growing up in northern Ontario, which is how I heard of it. Again, not through a history book.)
If anyone would care to see the payload from one of these devices, visit the RCMP Museum in Regina Saskatchewan - at least it was on display last time I was there.
I think the reporter picked a bad example of lost history. The ballon attacks are very well known here in Oregon where it happened. I've also seen several documentaries that mention the ballons. In fact only a week ago, I visted a small museum in that area that had an exhibit dedicated to that very subject.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
It is somewhat relevant as to the "floating in"part. Rather than floating in a tract on a plastic bag, they could float in something useful to help those people liberate themselves, and they could include a tract along with the instruction sheet-graphic. And you use what ammo is readily avaialable in that nation, so the pistol doesn't become useless after the original supply of ammo is exhausted.
I've only seen one of them, the little cartoon showed a soldier in a fritz helmet getting popped.
I'm pretty much against almost all the wars lately, a non interventionist, but in the case of north korea, I wish we had gone in there and finished the job way back in the 50's, even if it meant war with china at the time. We waited too long, IMO, now both red china and north korea have nukes and huge amounts of conventional warfare capability, and they haven't changed a bit when it comes to their ideals of world totalitarianism, let alone their obviouspersecutions of various religions beyond "cult of the leader" which is the only religion tolerated in those nations.
No, they didn't want to use a lot of nukes, because that would have negated their purpose of going in. They didn't go in to liberate the iraqis or to remove terror threats, they went in to STEAL THE OIL and to establish a permanent large military presence on the ground there, which they have done, so they can go from country to country and keep stealing the oil, and make the mideast safe for zionism, as most of the administration is composed of israel-firsters, and are quite racist to boot. They are as crazy and jingoistic as the most radical mullah, IMO. Fundamental nutjobs are the same all over the planet, it doesn't matter which creed they adhere to. They become fundamentally restricted from seeing any point of view other than their own, and their usual reaction is to kill/demonise/whatever those who oppose their particular paranoiacal views.
And they pulled this off by lying about the purpose and about iraq, and they murdered over 11,000 civilians so far in doing it. That makes them liars and murderers. And we know this now because the internet and instant global communications for the average guy has cracked censorship wide open.
Click here for the full story.
Did you read the newspaper with the Japanese Generals who were competing to see who could decapitate the most Chinese? If you read the Rape of Nanking, there is a picture of the paper on there. There was no outrage at it, infact I've read in places people kept watch on it to see who won. Not to mention, how many soldiers occupied Nanking? I don't have any sources with me cause I'm at work but it was quite a bit. How many went on trial after?
The Japanese people knew it was going on, maybe not to the exact extent, or some of the horrible atrocities, but they did nothing about it. By letting it happen and not atleast feigning outrage or demanding them to pay, I do lay some of the blame on them.
Look at the prison scandal in Iraq, say no one really was outraged here, the people who did it weren't punished, it was just let go. Would you blame the American population for letting it happen and continue?
I hope this makes sense, after 16 hours at work I'm a bit asleep at the wheel.
Just like to add the Hiroshima was also one of the cities that was basically let off on the huge bombing raids the American's did. I believe Nagasaki was fairly untouched by bombs also.
Actually, you know I think there is a distiction between the two. I like my signature better for its repitition of the word "know". But you know that.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is a wise man. He who knows not and knows not he knows not is a fool.
As I recall, Gore made carefully calculated challenges in counties that favored him, not necessarily in all counties with voting irregularities. The moves over absentee ballots were rotten, too.
That's when I knew that we would be having a son of a bitch for our president.
What is the rumor?
Er, what good is a missile lock when no missile you could fire could possibly catch it?
Which just says that they should have recounted in all counties, or at least in those counties that either candidate thought important.
However, denying recounts (espcially when the concerns were later shown to be justified) was a decision made by the Supreme Court, largely in response to a carefully targetted challenge by the Bush campaign.
As the old saying goes: it doesn't matter who you vote for, a politician still gets in.
"Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
I was disappointed, but not surprised, when neither side took the high ground and suggested a less biased approach, such as a broad recount, to some clear problems. Gore entered a targeted challenge. Then Bush countered with a targeted response of his own. Both went out to create a victory rather than a just election, one to reflect the actual votes. I knew then, as I had suspected during the campaign, that we were about to have a conniving bastard in the White House. Your saying held true.
Canada's military is in a shambles. Just ask anyone...the military itself, the government, the people. They lack sufficient force even to perform banal missions such as protecting their fisheries. A sad state of affairs, one I hope is only temporary.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
sorry, my bad, I meant M4... not M14
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Well, it hadn't been left untouched and as such was the backup target. Kokura was the intended target but was obscured by smog and hence the mission redirected to the first backup target. There was substantial cloud cover but the bomb was dropped anyway through a rift in the clouds, missing the city center by several miles.
Stefan Axelsson
What?? Okay, so you see a post that mentions Canada was at war with Japan, and mentions that therefore a baloon bomb landing in Canada is just as successful as one landing in the US (in reaction to the post that came before it which implied it wasn't), and you use accuse that poster of being US-centric??? Why?
Misplaced accusations of national jingoism are sometimes themselves another form of national jingoism.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
And if you call the soldiers who burned the white house down British, you might as well call all Canadians of the time British. Sheesh!
Precisely. That's what they *were*.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
SR-71 Blackbird - Mach3
Standard Issue SideWinder Missile - Mach6
Go Figure.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
I thought the article was talking about the ! and ? that appear above character's heads in RPGs and Anime/Manga.
I hate sigs.
The rules about foreigners playing on the ball teams is more because of the national origan. It isn't racisit but more to keep the sport japanese rather then american or whatever. Differences in economics as well as social circumstances might hamper thier abilities to find "as qualified" tallent in japan as aposed to other countries. I see nothing wrong with that unless they are saying that "no outsiders can play" or "everyone but blacks or rusians" or somethign simular.
sort of like the american soldiers in that arub whatever prison in iraq.. i agree with you but differences in actions like this could hinge on wether or not they are spnsored activities of the current government. I don't believe for a minute that bush or anyone ordered torture of the prisoner just as i don't believe that any of the other leaders present when the jews were killed, the japs and other situations described in earlier posts are in power still.
People will use whatever they can for amunition to arm the ignorant if it would advance thier cause. It is bullshit that some people can't look past the smoke screens and have thier own inteligent opinion based on realistic resoning like you do.