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Microsoft Found Guilty of Misleading Advertising
gtoomey writes "The UK Advertising Standards Authority has upheld complaints that Microsoft misled consumers by running advertisements claiming Linux is 10 times more expensive than Windows. The print advertisements used "independent research" to compare the cost of Linux on an expensive mainframe to Windows on a PC."
The advert appeared in an IT magazine and was headed: "Weighing the cost of Linux vs Windows? Let's review the facts". The ad contained a graph comparing the cost in US dollars between a Linux images running on two z900 mainframe CPUs and a Windows Server 2003 image running two 900MHz Intel Xeons chips.
Hmm, who wants to help me do some "independent research" of our own? We could compare Linux running on a WRT54G versus the cost of, say, a dual CPU P4 XEON system with 4 gbs RAM, SCSI array, redundant everything, and dual 19" LCD monitors.
Lesse, that makes linux roughly 100 times cheaper (70$ vs. 7000$). Didn't I also see this ad on slashdot and in Linux Journal?
Not intended to be a flamebait, it's not just a Microsoft problem - all marketing people are evil. Perhaps we should enact the death penalty for marketing droids?
feh. stuff.
Are you surprised that statistics can be bought and bartered? Everyone knows that the person paying for the data can make it show whatever they want.
What's stopping your guys complaining to your government agencies?
It's interesting that the ASA slapped Microsoft on the wrists for running the comparison on both different HARDWARE and software.
They should have also enquired into this "independent research" - Microsoft has a history of funding "independant researchers" itself, which coincidentally always come out in favour for Microsoft.
I'm tired. It's early.
:)
Morning M$ bashing article.
Microsoft did something stupid. *sip*
Ooh. Megatokyo has a pretty cool DPD up!
^^^Life with AADD. Gotta love it.
I wish I had linux on a mainframe!
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Clearly, when you compare the operating cost of a mainframe to the operating cost of a PC, it doesn't matter what OS you put on either system, the mainframe is going to cost more to own.
The research may have been conducted indepenently and fairly, but the conclusion it came to should have surprised nobody because the test they were running didn't put the two operating systems on a level playing field in the first place.
Try running both OSes on identical hardware and then see what kind of results you get...
Here's a link to the adjudication at the Advertising Standards Authority.
This is the same agency that has nailed Apple to the wall several times in the past.
Linux is as cheap as Windows. Windows is as cheap as Linux. They both cost ~one CD-R.
If you didn't read the website the advert pointed you at very carefully, you would be led to believe that Linux needed much more expensive hardware than Windows to even match capabilities; in fact, the study made no such claims.
I appear to have a blog. Odd.
I think Slashdot needs an "Obvious" tag.
Since it has been shown time after time (sorry Ms. Lauper) that EU != US, will MS get smacked here?o nsultants.realresultsmayvarybasedonuseandhardwarep urchases.notresponsibleforvirusesandothersoftwarem alfunctions.seeresellersfordetails'
Probably the only outcome would be a forced disclaimer like the fast talking legal-speak in car commercials: 'Whencomparedbetweendislikesystemsbypaidresearchc
I'm surprised Microsoft didn't go ahead and factor in an SCO license to the "cost" of Linux.
MS compared server 2003 on dual 900 MHz Xeons to Linux on an IBM z900 mainframe.
By my own similar method of comparison I can conclude Apples Mac OS X is 2000 times cheaper than MS server 2003*.
* Mac OS X running on a dual G5 Xserve. MS sever 2003 running on a quad quantum cyberdine systems X-9000 with gold plated tri-lithium cooled case and diamond studded cup holder.
If we had some of Microsoft's droids working for us, the open-source community in promoting open-source software, we may possibly have a big market share (as if we haven't got a growing one already).
Fine, Linux may be expensive in the short-term, i.e. upgrading and replacing some incompatible hardware, training staff, etc. but as ESR says, pay-per-seat Microsoft licensing fees are forever.Just my two pence.
no karma required .asp]
from http://www.asa.org.uk/ [ironically running on IIS with
-- - - - - -
Microsoft Ltd
Microsoft Campus
Thames Valley Park
Reading
Berkshire
RG6 1WG
Date: 25th August 2004
Media: Magazine
Sector: Computers and telecommunications
Agency: McCann Erickson
Public Complaints From: Liverpool, Surrey, Wiltshire
Complaint:
Objections to a specialist magazine advertisement, for a computer operating system, that was headed "WEIGHING THE COST OF LINUX VS. WINDOWS? LET'S REVIEW THE FACTS." A graph compared the cost (US$) per Megabit per second of "One Linux image running on two z900 mainframe CPUs" with "One Windows Server 2003 image running on two 900 MHz Intel Xeon CPUs". Underneath it stated "Linux was found to be over 10 times more expensive than Windows? Serverâ 2003 in a recent study ⦠audited by leading independent research analyst META Group, measured costs of Linux running on IBM's z900 mainframe for Windows-comparable functions of file serving and Web serving. The results showed that IBM z900 mainframe running Linux is much less capable and vastly more expensive than Windows Server 2003 as a platform for server consolidation.* To get the full study and other third-party findings, visit Microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts." The asterisk linked to a footnote that stated "Results may vary outside the United States â¦". The complainants challenged whether the comparison was misleading, because the operating systems were run on different hardware.
Codes Section: 3.1, 7.1, 18.1, 18.2, 18.3 (Ed 11)
Adjudication:
Complaints upheld
The advertisers said they intended the advertisement to compare competing file-serving set-ups that met the same needs and were intended for the same purposes. They said they had prepared the advertisement in response to an advertising campaign by IBM in which Linux running on an IBM mainframe was tested for file serving and web serving. They said their advertisement was based on results from a benchmark study and the advertisement informed the public of the results from that study about the relative performance and cost of one Linux image running on IBM's z900 mainframe CPUs and Windows Server 2003 image running on two 900MHz Xeon CPUs. The advertisers said the benchmark study was a network load performance test that was neither hardware specific nor operating system specific; they said the fact that the hardware and operating systems were different was irrelevant. They pointed out that the client PC did not determine the server used and that the server workloads were the same and were functionally equivalent. The advertisers explained that each server was tested to deal with increasing numbers of functions from client PCs. They said they took measurements from the client PCs to assess how fast the server would respond. They asserted that the study was audited by Meta, an independent consultancy firm, who reported that the study was a fair comparison.
The Authority noted the advertisers intended the advertisement to compare competing file serving set-ups that met the same needs and had the same function. It noted the study was audited and was a fair comparison of the operating systems on different hardware. The Authority considered, however, that because the advertisement stated " ⦠WEIGHING THE COST OF LINUX VS. WINDOWS ⦠Linux was found to be over 10 times more expensive than Windows ⦠" it implied the comparison was between Linux and Windows operating systems only, and not about the performance of operating systems on different hardware. It took expert advice. It understood that the study measured the cost of Linux, running on IBM's z900 mainframe, to a Windows Server 2003 image, running on 900 MHz Intel Xeon CPUs, and was therefore a comparison that demonstrated the price and performance between IBM zSeries hardware and Intel Xeon CPUs. It understood that the pri
Or accidentally ticking the "Post Anonymously" checkbox? :)
In related news, usage of statistics is up 60%. After a fall last year of 40% on the usage of statistics this came as quite a surprise to the Internation Statistics Council (ISC).
"We are delighted with the increase of the usage of statistics, " said Chris Banana, the CEO of the ISC, "after the decline of previous year we have campained 150% more to encourage a 76% increase in statistics usage."
Independent inquiries with the goal of producing statistics have also risen 45% according to an independent study issued by the ISC.
"We are extremely grateful for the 5000% increate in funding we received from Microsoft in order to make this all possible", according to Chris.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
...and thinking, how much more stupid can it be? I saw the ad in a publication aimed at IT professionals (e-week, I think). Now granted, I know a lot of CIOs and other IT executive types might see it, but at least with the magazine I saw it in, I would think the target base would have enough tech savvy to know that a mainframe is going to cost more to run than a dual-xeon system.
Styrofoam IS biodegradable, you're just impatient!
In Windows 98 setup it said,"You simply plug in a USB device and your system automatically configures itself. You don't even have to restart your computer"
I've plugged in USB devices that prompted for a reboot.
Windows 98 setup also said that "Windows 98 is Year 2000 ready." But later Microsoft issued two patches to correct y2k problems in Windows 98.
... the Open-source marketing droids. If we managed to get some of Microsoft's marketing department staff into open-source, and have them promoting it, we would have a faster-growing marketshare than what we have now. The problem with Microsoft is that the so-called "Independent Studies" aren't independent, and they only look at the short-term expenses. Migrating to Linux may be expensive for a business, e.g. buying new hardware if the selection you have is incompatible, training staff to use the new system, etc. but if you look at the long term benefits, you'll find that costs are reduced dramatically. Windows IIS web servers are more likely to be defaced than Apache servers, although IIS is a small fraction of the servers on port 80 out of the entire internet! Security? Pah! The only reason that there is more security patches is that they are found and fixed quicker. I am using Mandrake 10.0 and I download the updates in bulk. There is a batch every to download and when I have finished there is no more to download for the rest of the week! Read http://opensource.org/, ESR's article Get The FUD in the Halloween documents section. Its just brilliant.
The real cost savings in running Linux on a zSeries mainframe comes from consolidating multiple server images under one box - either 16 servers running in native LPARs or 20+ under z/VM virtual machines.
- Despite popular opinion, I am not perfect.
I used to work in an advertising company. Oddly, the one that held the Microsoft account in 1995, when MS released Windows 95.
At that time, there were a few 'jinks' planned for the release that were not, strictly speaking, legal.
They knew that they'd get their wrists slapped, perhaps fined heavily.
The company take on it? They knew they may get caught up for it, and slapped hard. But these jinks would get the 'message' across in a spectacular way.
Nobody looked too hard at the slapdown and retractions, because they simply avoided the limelight. They had to look apologetic to the right people in private, and it was all forgotten.
But people at large simply remembered the original advertising stunt.
In this, it's the same thing again. They knew they'd be held up by the ASA, and torn down a strip, and forced to stop the advertisement.
However, they also know that the tech-unsure IT Managers and CIOs and so on will probably see it, and start saying "See, this Linux thing isn't so cheap after all! Stay with MS".
Advertising like that is meant to stay in the head along with the words 'survey' and masquerade as fact, so that in a future discussion that's on the subject, they won't say "I saw an advert that said Linux is more expensive than Windows", they'll say "I saw a SURVEY that showed how windows was cheaper to run than Linux".
Damage already done. Although the lie has been caught it's already spread, masquerading as fact.
They've earned their money, MS will pay any required fines (they've probably already been built into the pitch before it was released), and MS will be smiling all the way as the flung mud sticks, as it always does.
You can have him. Take him. Please. Now. I'll pay you. Anything. Go ransom his guide dog. Anything to stop the miserable little1928x343nx- nm
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
weren't they also the ones that slammed Apple for claiming the g5 was the fastest personal computer on earth?
Monstar L
They should have run the two operating systems on identical (PC) hardware. After all, the x86 platform is the original platform of Linux too, and probably the best supported. So this would be fair to both systems.
Thus, the hardware costs would be a draw and the cost comparison would actually be about software.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Douglas Adams described the Vogons as "not being above bribery and corruption in the same way that the sea is not above the clouds" (something like that - I'm working from memory). For some odd reason that phrase popped into my head as I read the article.
Another interesting bit:
"...The results showed that IBM z900 mainframe running Linux is much less capable and vastly more expensive than Windows Server 2003 as a platform for server consolidation.*" The ASA said the asterisk linked to a footnote that said: "Results may vary outside the United States".
I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean: is Linux less capable in Abu Dhabi than it is in the US? Are the results are reversed in the southern hemisphere? One might think that - if the study were conducted properly (big if) - the figures would remain proportional even after pricing for markets and conversion of currency (exchange rates).
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
"Windows Found To Be Infinintely More Expensive Than Linux"
"Is this just useless, or is it expensive as well?"
If running Linux on a mainframe is just 10 times more expensive than running Windows on a crappy PC then I bet most managers would favor Linux straight away. More scalable, more reliable, what do you want more?
Having said that, you'd be even better off if you could find a way to let your application run on a bunch of PC Linux boxes that together meet the scalability and reliability of z900 systems.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
advertisers calculate ~like this :
a lot of people are too lazy to do their own reserch
a lot of people are too dumb to do their own reserch
about the remained ~5%, we don't care
and the obvious conclusion - it don' matter what crap you tell them, make it sound nice and they'll buy
as about stigmatising MS for this .. i don' wanna say they are the nicest company, but ANY big company that ever did advertising, had at least one similar campaign
or think about this sample AFAIR, Carlsberg ran a spot saying "Carlsberg - probably the best beer in the world"
think about the uproar after a "Windows - probably the best OS in the world"
advertising is the real bad-guy here, not MS ... advertising takes away your freedom of choice by exploiting your lazyness or dumbness ... and they do it so good, most of people even enjoy it!
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
sounds like the sort of crap you hear down tottenham court rd - "ah yeah i've tried linux its not so good, but if you buy windows XP from here, for an extra 50 quid we'll give you a 10 year warrenty incase your urm OS er breaks down!" i've heard that windows 2003 server on a 2.4GHz pentium 4 runs 10 times faster than a top-of-the-range 1964 IBM mainframe!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
You mean the annoying flash-based ones I seem to find on all too many articles, including this one? Yeah, it was the one that popped up when I loaded it...
Yeh, talk about irony...
And even more ironic is the fact that when I click "Get the facts" on it it simply refers me to Microsoft's main Canadian page. No facts in sight.
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
For all you Americans, this serves as an introduction. This here is what we call "regulation". It stops businesses being dicks by not bending over backwards to them at every opportunity. Our economy has not yet collapsed. Amazing, that.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
I have also been watching the WinXP-SP2 saga play out and it just seems like "business as usual" to me. I'm sure they will get it right in the end - just in time to start the whole process all over again with "LongHaul" - opps sorry, Longhorn.
Art Makers Just an excuse to show photos of naked women !!
DDDDDDuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
Finally we have proof that government does watch TV.
Oh, right the Jackson thingy, well I guess now we have proof that the governemnt watches TV even when boobs are not on display.
Well, aside from the fact that slashdot is just peoples opinions and isn't commercial advertisements..
If sun were to start publishing untrue statements about star office then yes, you would have grounds for complaint..
As for the truth of the statement, for many functions openoffice is viable, for some it is not.. It is totally subjective to your needs.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Most government have heavy laws to try and help protect people from corporations. Yet if a person is brought in to court on so many charges in a time frame the court adds them all up hoping to get a better view of how the person is acting in (and hurting) the society. But giant corporations, they can get hauled to court constantly even over the same charge again and again and courts treat them all as seperate cases. Why not look at the big picture and see what these giants are doing to society and pass judgement trying to change something rather then trying to say something the corperations obviously aren't going to listen to?
*DrugCheese rants*
BJD Enterprises has a new penis-envy gel called "Micro/Soft." Rumor has it, their advertisement is misleading, but I highly doubt it.
- Gentlemen, start your hybrids!
Show me the false claims with specificity.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
As my old math prof said:
Statistics are like a Bikini: showing interesting details but hiding the important stuff.
This is good for nothing. Ignore it or send it to the Customer Care Dept.
10 x 0 = $2000
Wow, no wonder their software is so buggy!
His lips are moving.
(Or, in this case, his fingers are typing.;)
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
I think you've got to look at common examples where the profit margin is thin, highly competitive, and tightly linked to actual operating overhead. If you an price web hosting, a Windows/IIS solution is more expensive than a Unix-based one. The cheapest hosts are always Unix-based, and ironically they tend to also be the most "reliable" (according to uptime....)
I'm sure there are examples of where the TCO of Windows on the same hardware is cheaper than something Unix-based, but for most serious work, Unix still rules.
Hell, Microsoft was guilty of false advertising when they released Microsoft Works.
considering my home server running windows cost $100 for the windows copy, and my linux server cost $0 for the software, hmm, I wonder whats cheaper
I agree with additions, consolidating 100 Linux systems and needing fewer sysadmins in a shop that already has a z infrastructure can save a lot $$$$$.
Nope. Just article after article with argument after argument summarized by:
Linux is cheaper! No license needed and runs a hell of a lot more stable that Windows.
Windows is cheaper! Setup tools require less experienced admins, setup/configuration takes less time, and everything in the network talks to each other without tweaking!
Linux requires expensive admins, but the good admins will ensure more stability/security, and the experienced staff will be able to solve problems more quickly.
Windows has 24/7 support, but MS tech support needs at least 24 hours to remove their heads from their asses and give a solution other than "just re-install; we don't know".
Linux has poor architeture-wide support/configuration/management tools; only those who buy big business versions of Linux from IBM, etc. will have tools that even come close to enterprise management tools.
Linux in the small-medium business requires custom management scripts and tools, but more experienced admins can take care of this easily with shell scripting and perl, rsync, gold box mentality, and good IT/IS practices.
It all boils down to: Get what you prefer, but use it correctly and in combination with good IT/IS people and practices.
- Have you ever noticed that the more you learn about technology, the more stupid you sound trying to explain it?
How is the system funded?
The ASA's work is funded by a small levy on display advertising and direct mail expenditure. In order for the ASA to preserve its independence from the advertising industry, a separate body, the Advertising Standards Board of Finance, collects this income. The only cost to consumers is the price of a stamp, or the time spent online, to send a complaint. The ASA's budget for the year 2003 is just over £4 million.
"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that."
My favorite marketing examples take place in movie advertising:
You see quotes like,
"Fantastic!" -- Boston Globe
Then you see the movie, and you realize that the critic said, "Fantastic waste of money!" and the marketing types couldn't be bothered to include the entire statement in their ad blurb.
Marketing pukes that do this stuff should be taken out to Death Valley during high season and left there. Tell them to be creative, and maybe they'll get out alive.
-- No sig for you!
Now that Microsoft has been "found guilty" of misleading advertising, I wonder what their punishment will be? Life sentence at a hard labour camp? Confinement in a maximum security prison? Did the Gates family weep as the sentence was handed down?
Seriously, the UK Advertising Standards Authority have no authority, and there are likely no repercussions for Microsoft. Many whom have read those false claims and erroneous statements (and especially the poor saps that bought into it) will likely never hear the truth. The lies have been perpetrated and spread. It's like the old man who climbs to the top of a mountain and releases a bag of feathers to a mighty gust of wind. Those feathers are like lies: they spread to the four corners of the earth and are impossible to retract.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
But rather than running multiple OS images in z900 domains, it will be even more cost effective to run a single Solaris 10 (SPARC or X86) image with applications running in zones.
D.
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
Man, its a good thing we don't have that here, or else what fun would political campaigns be?
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
The original reason for the research was to counter IBM's claims that you could reduce your TCO more by converting to Linux on a mainframe than to Windows on PC farms.
BOTH OF THEM WERE CORRECT.
In the IBM case, they were looking at it from the point of view that you already had mainframes, and you wanted to make them cheaper to maintain and keep up with modern software trends. They were correct.
In the Microsoft case, they were analyzing what it would take to convert over to mainframes or start from scratch. They were correct.
Where MS went horribly, horribly wrong was when their marketing folks took this, perfectly reasonable, research and referenced it in ads to the general computing community without any indication that it was a comparison relevant only to a particular niche market!
MS did some good research here, but the applied it unethically. Let's be clear on what we're coming down on them for!
Advertising has always played around the fringes of the truth, like system specs. But lately it's gone from stretching the truth to inventing it.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
When I saw these TCO ads running on slashdot I complained to OSDN. They didn't deny the ads were misleading but didn't seem to want to stop running them. Their argument basically revolved around the fact that slashdot users wouldn't take the ads seriously anyway.
I stated at the time that I thought they would be in breach of UK advertising law.
So will Microsoft now be made to re-run the ad with an apology for misleading readers?
...governments do when they want to "sell" some political decision they have made or are about to make.
Page one - MOBILE BIOWEAPONS WARFARE LABS FOUND!
Page 87, several weeks later -Mobile bioweapons labs found to have been helium production units for weather baloons
and etc.
Over-sell the big lie up front, over and over, in as many ways as possible. Also helps if "you" are the ones tasked with later verification. This is a +1 bonus for governments. Hmm, lotta discrepancies in the war on terror and whatnot. Idea! Let's hand pick our own guys to investigate- us!
That should-and did-work.
Well, co government - they sit alongside the RIAA and MPAA as dictators.
RTFA!
The claim that their ads were MISLEADING was upheld. It wasn't claimed that what they said was false.
The reason it's misleading is because they were comparing chalk (1 Linux image running on some heavyweight iron that could take 20 times the load) versus cheese (some high-end PC hardware running 1 Windows image). They then used this to make a misleading claim.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
You're joking right?
Perhaps a little more than a year ago, I personally made the assertion that Linux is great...even unmatched on the server side, especially for the cost involved but even without costs considered, I think Linux does an amazingly good job. But I also said Liunx is not ready for the desktop as I found it slow, unstable and barely usable.
What has changed? I have better hardware though that shouldn't have been the difference. We have newer X releases, new Open Office releases, GNOME wasn't even 2.0 at the time was it?
In any case, what has changed is largely my lazy ass. One day I just decided it was time to learn to use the thing as more than a server. And without many failures (I have this little digital camera for which no Linux support exists), I haven't run into any task I couldn't complete with satisfaction under (currently) Fedora Core 2. (please, I know there are other distros and KDE "Kicks De Ess!" and all that, but I'm comfortable with GNOME and FC2)
My point here is that at this point in time, I truly feel it's ready for prime time. More than that, I feel it's NEEDED prime time. The net has been getting a lot of attention for being unsafe for machines with a Microsoft OS. There are too many holes to plug even for experts in the field so I cannot imagine how helpless end users feel (though from my view they seem like helpless children getting f*cked up the ass and don't yet realize that this is immoral and wrong.)
The only thing that needs to change at this point in time are the minds of users.
But like the adoption of USB technology, it's a kind of chicken-egg thing. And ultimately, it was the makers of hardware that brought realization of the potential of USB. I suspect it will again be manufacturers (of PCs this time) that will bring realization of Linux's potential on the desktop.
It's ready. It's just a matter of whether we can get the hardware people out there to support Linux better.
So why do you mention the EU?
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Who cares? So Microsoft is paying for ad space on this website. I'd rather they pay than me. Consider it my return on investment.
Once again I read this article as I see a "Windows 2003 outperformed every Red Hat Linux configuration tested -- source: Veritest" ad. ..
[alk]
Might as well try akavan@huskerglass.com
My guess is the 'single Linux image' that did it. Compare it to running a single treaded process on the NEC Earth simulator and then saying "See, it's not all that fast, is it?" Mainframes do not have blistering fast CPUs. They do have very bg pipes
Wow. 3 stories about MS on the main page. A MS ad on the top of the page now...
Amazing. Can we change the tag line from "news for nerds" to "news about MS"?
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
Why would you want to tarnish the "knight in shining armor" Windows alternative image of F/OSS with some scummy, low-life, underhanded marketing tactics just to turn some heads?
I feel dirty just thinking about it...where's my brain floss?
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I've seen the same ad. running on Slashdot in the recent past
MOD THE CHILD UP!
I got a returned email saying a user with that username doesn't exist, did you type it incorrectly? Reply here with a correct email to claim the invite.
The real evil is the "lazyness or dumbness" you mention in your last sentence not advertising.
Since we don't teaching critical thinking skills in schools, we aren't equipped for democracy and freedom in general. We need to arm our population with the tools to recognize bs when it is shoveled on them.
This is such a clear troll, I wish I had some mod points to push it down. I might be doubtful if it weren't for his inciteful replies later on. Please don't respond to this anymore. We have no need for national tribalism.
I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
"By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself. Thank you, thank you. Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day they'll take root. I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourselves. Seriously though, if you are, do. No really, there's no rationalisation for what you do, and you are Satan's little helpers, OK? Kill yourselves, seriously. You're the ruiner of all things good. Seriously, no, this is not a joke. "There's gonna be a joke coming..." There's no fucking joke coming, you are Satan's spawn, filling the world with bile and garbage, you are fucked and you are fucking us, kill yourselves, it's the only way to save your fucking soul. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show."
""You know what Bill's doing now, he's going for the righteous indignation dollar, that's a big dollar, a lot of people are feeling that indignation, we've done research, huge market. He's doing a good thing." Godammit, I'm not doing that, you scumbags, quit putting a godamn dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!" ~ Bill Hicks
The ASPCA (American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) recently went to a linux solution. Here's a press release with the gist of the story. What they don't tell you is the reason the ASPCA went to the Linux solution is because the Microsoft Exchange server they were using was going down for several hours at least once a week. This was bad because the ASPCA needed it to exchange information with the Poison Control center and vetrinarians and couldn't when the server was down.
The ASPCA went to the Linux solution and the server was up for 3 weeks before they rebooted it.
Anybody else have details on the Windows to Linux migration by the ASPCA?
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
Personally, I don't like being marketed at myself. Unfortunately out in the real world, your competitor starts throwing mud and some starts to stick - fairly or unfairly. What are you going to do? Sit back and watch your market share shrink, smug in the knowledge that you are doing the right thing? Or do you retaliate - which leads into a spiral of fudged numbers and statistics and general confusion. Yes I know which I would prefer, but lets be real here. Companies, whether global domination types like Microsoft or mom and pops ice cream emporium - here's the shocker - HAVE TO MAKE A PROFIT. Deal with it ladies.
chammond@dfjproductions.com
...that Microsoft was not slammed, but was warned that the ads were potentially misleading. The reason that the ads were not just deemed misleading is because the ad was made for the purpose of attacking a particular hardware niche in which the most common solution was a Z900 mainframe running Linux.
The ads are no more misleading than every single Apple Computer add since the late 80's. Hey, did you know that Apple had the world's first 64-bit desktop? LOL...
Loading...
At laaaaasst! The Gig'o'mail is miiiiine!
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
Well Steve/Josh..., whoever it was, ranting about MS open sourcing efforts. The first thing I would like to see MS open sourcing is the "Independent Research claims". If you are really serious about open sourcing first try to play it straight. Gain the confidence of the community that you wish to serve. Misleading the community with fake claims is like going orthogonal to your said goals. Remember, Open Source Software is built in the open, not behind veiled walls and half truths.
Start trying to play straight and see the response.
It is definitely false advertising. I charge way more than 10X for my Linux consulting.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
I don't think I've ever seen an advertisement that hasn't been misleading.
"Buy this, it's the best!", "We're number 1 amongst leading research!", "Approved by 4 out of 5 dentists!"
All advertising is supposed to do is lead you to their product, or mislead you away from a competitor. It's simple Marketing101. And, depending on how you interpret the data you collect you can assert whatever it is that you want. "Percentage of cancer in newborns 50%, therefore cancer is due to aging."
Advertising is interesting, but to fall for it - now that's dumb!
Live forever, or die trying.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Thanks a ton! Woot Gmail here I come.
gerard_sweeney@hotmail.com
:-P
Ehhh, should have logged in first. Hope I'm still in time
This is me. Don't like it? That's unlucky.
we should forget Windows and go with a Radio Shack TRaSh-80, which should be dirt cheap.
It's actually mindaktiviti@yahoo.ca (note the .ca at the end)
I log in as "mindaktiviti@yahoo.com" and I barely use that email, so when I when I emailed myself from another account I realized "shit!".
Thank you very much for the gmail account!
If testing as a webserver, I think putting a pair of $500 whiteboxes up against the IIS monster server would make the point nicely, no need to go all out here.
If testing as a firewall, by all means use the WRT54G, it'll hammer the competition in bang for the buck.
Now how about the rest of Microsoft's false advertising?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I just bought a brand new dell laptop. it came with a dell USB memory stick. I plugged it in and it wanted a reboot.
bah.
cyt0plas@gmail.com
If you get caught then I think there is something like a $250,000 fine for violating Microsoft's copyright.
So that would be $250,000 / $1.50 (a 3 CD distro) = 166,667 times more expensive to run Windows. And that's not considering lost revenue due to down time behind bars.
But don't let that dissuade you. Do a risk assessment based on the probability of you getting caught and then make your decision.
burnin
Microsoft has killed an un-armed woman and her newborn child. Unfortunately the court system has a completely different legal system for corporations so they will be charging the mother for disturbing the peace.
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
Anyone reminded of the Quiznos commercials? "The only way for the other guys to win...is to cheat."
Glad I work for a non-profit. Saving money is actually important. If only to have some fudge room for all the IT disasters other departments insist on having.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
linux is ready for prime time. No doubt about it.
People have a choice now; they just need to know about it. I suppose it's our job to let people know about it.
they shovel money to both Democratic and Republican canidates, so no matter who wins, the people lose.
:)
Microsoft shoveled enough money to get the DOJ off their backs.
40 Wall street companies shoveled money to Bush, the same 40 companies also shoveled money to Kerry. Our government is already 0wned!
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
when its free to download and all you have to do is pick up a dead badger on the side of the road to install it on?
And I had just used my mod points...
All's true that is mistrusted
Prego Thick and Chunky spaghetti sauce is thicker and chunkier than Ragu Old World Style.
Of course, god forbid they compare Prego Thick and Chunky with Ragu Thick and Chunky.
"Hey, look, our thick spaghetti sauce is way thicker than our competiter's sauce that's specifically designed *not* to be thick!" It's the same kind of crap.
I have yet to work for any company where the marketing people have half a clue as to the way things really work. I know of .one. company (A VoIP company - probably soon to go belly up with the feds trying to make VoIP tappable) that actually has salespeople with CCNE's that actually sell the network, submit a complete 'plan' for the system, and the engineers back home actually do the router/device configuration.
I want to work there!
This is the 4th or so Microsoft article posted in the past 12 hours. Isn't there any cool Linux news other than its birthday? I know OSTG's employees are desperate to bash competitors using a "tech news" site it happens to own, but this is just overkill. I'm bored when I load the front page, and it's "Microsoft Is Evil," "Microsoft Does Something Stupid Again," "More Made-Up Microsoft Woes For You To Laugh At," and "Linux's 13th Birthday!"
Just my opinion...feel free to disagree.
You went through cup 4 way too soon! Hold off till noon and you will get better!
Since we're at it, let's just once and for all finish the job, lets kill all those who don't shave them selves, and all those who shaves those who don't shave them selves, and all those who don't shave, and... If we have a good extintion program, we'll only have polar bears left when we're done... I'm a polar bear.
Would you believe it? Microsoft basically helps popularise Linux. Not being a firm, an organization or a person, Linux can't spend money on ads. Microsoft helps it with its FUD campaigns, each of which is immediately proven bogus. People get to see what Linux and Microsoft are really all about.
If I only charged 10x more for Unix consulting I'd probably have to start buying domestic beer.
... Microsoft's conscious would never allow that!
Sigs are for the weak.
The funny thing is that even if MS did beat Linux on the server front there is still FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD coming up behind.
Be afraid MS, be very afraid
Art Makers Just an excuse to show photos of naked women !!
Have you ever seen a Microsoft ad that was not misleading? I haven't.
advertising IS THE REAL EVIL ... PERIOD.
# advertisers calculate ~like this : a lot of people are too lazy to do their own reserch
# a lot of people are too dumb to do their own reserch
# about the remained ~5%, we don't care
Real evil? Okay. Consider this.
I own a restaurant. I put an ad on the television or the radio that indicates what we do and where we are. People have come into our restaurant and enjoyed the experience as a result.
This is "REAL EVIL" to you? Were those people who came to my restaurant somehow too stupid or lazy to "do their own research" on (God, I don't know) where they wanted to eat dinner? The fact remains that after several months of being open, I would guess (and I can only guess) that less that 10% of the people who would ever eat in our restaurant even know we exist. How can we get that number higher without advertising?
I'd say there is a far cry from the ads we release to something more evil (like diet pills, for instance). Painting all adveritising as "evil" is shallow-minded of you.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Damn, that's either a real cheap mainframe, or Windows is a helluva lot more expensive than I remember it to be.
If it weren't for fog, the world would run at a really crappy framerate.
I mean, best of luck to the British for trying their best to keep advertisers honest. It's really the right attitude to have, but before pouring this much resources into this issue why not step back and think: it's freakin' advertising, fer fuck's sake! What do you expect? Hype and exaggeration are the bread-and-butter of marketing. They need to get your attention in a 20-second spot or a half-page ad or whatever. If they don't use half-naked women, they're going to make claims that cause you to do a double-take (although I think the half-naked women in computing ads concept has not yet been fully explored... hint, hint, Apple and Microsoft!)
If you're really so thick-headed that you need someone else to point this out to you, that Linux may not be more expensive because a competitor's ad claims it, or that the G5 may not necessarily be the world's fastest PC, then you've got much bigger personal issues to deal with.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
But every defendant should have the same counter-prosecutor.
;)
You mean a lawyer?
I agree with the other points though.
Trolls are like broken clocks. They show the truth two times a day. The rest of the day they talk nonsense.
I don't want more market share. Linux is not an enterprise looking to obatin more market share.
In any case, Linux popularity should increase only if it is helping people to solve specific problems. I want no marketroids bending the facts in order to obtain your fabled market share.
If Linux was crap it would deserve to fall in disuse, to be an OS project does not give any application carte blanche to become popular.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
They should have compared the cost of Linux running on a mainframe to Windows running on a mainframe... what's that? Windows doesn't run on a mainframe? Oh... so sorry!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Minor problem; prosecutors are lawyers too, your would-be counter-prosecutors are lawyers too.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
It ain't a troll if it's true.
Come on all, didn't you see that M$ commercial where the 19 year old looking IT kid saved the company a million dollars and ran the entire IT department with 1 windows 2003 server. All the managements were looking at the kid like "wow, can I worship you". This kid saved the company and $$$. I don't think even Linus himself could save a company with 1 windows license.
Working in advertising, I find it highly amusing when someone gets their undies in a bunch over mistruths in advertising. Have you EVER found advertising to be truthful, educational, balanced, or neutral? If the answer is yes, its obvious the advertising worked. Wither you are conditioned with an implied view of reality (drinking beer gets you laid) or bludgeoned over the head with a truth-stretching-statement the result is the same. So wake up, truth will not be handed to you on a silver plater. Advertising isn't about telling the truth (or lying), its about selling.
I've had a GNU/Linux PC for almost 8 years now, and for each upgrade I've paid a couple of dollars, probably in total less than or around $50. I can't get a copy of any windows (except 3.1) for that price. The hardware is the same and once its setup it just works. So I don't get these win vs linux comparisons. They are both about the same today, it really depends on do you have windows admins or UNIX / BSD / Linux admins.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
so, you say that pushing your restaurant down my throat is a "good thing"?????
... and you get to be known in the old fashion - word of mouth... it's the most reliable source ever and all the involved parts are happy with it... if your restaurant is good it'll survive ... maybe it won't develop same as fast, but the ultimate purpose of a business is to be useful and enjoyable to everyone, not to make money "instantly" ...
... and the "get rich or die trying" program, executed at maximum speed is not exactly a hapiness generator.
Since you believe all advertising is inherently evil and I obviously disagree, what made you think that a purely emotional and shrill argument like that would change my mind? You're going to have to use facts and reason if you want me to accept your point of view, not whining and multiple quotation marks.
how about nobody does advertising?
You write things like this because you know very little about business. If my restaurant relied solely on word-of-mouth then it would have died in a matter of months.
Allow me to illustrate. You admit that word of mouth will not bring business as quickly as other forms of advertising. While that slow form of advertising is taking its own sweet time to build up sales, the bills keep rolling in. Rent is $3500 per month. Power is $4000 per month. Payroll is $6000 per month. (Mind you, in all of this, I as the owner do not get paid.) I also have to have food prepped which costs money, liquor ready which is C.O.D., Internet charges, phone bills (which are orders of mangitude higher that the consumer bills that you're used to), insurance payments, cleaning charges, gas bills (again, orders of magnitude higher), and the list goes on and on. ALL of these bills have to be paid whether or not I have sales, and the bills come rolling in on day 1, not day "whenever I have enough sales to pay them."
Now, according to you, I should solely rely on word-of-mouth advertising. Tell me, then, in the time that I have before word-of-mouth builds up, how am I supposed to pay all of those bills? Word-of-mouth can't do it fast enough! I don't have millions of dollars in the bank to support a money-losing business for years.
So I have, according to you, two choices:
1. Advertise and bring in business.
2. Lose all my assets. Declare bankruptcy. Fire all of my employees. Destroy my credit. Disappoint all of my loyal customers.
And I take it that you'll argue that #2 is the superior option because then I won't possibly inconvenience you with "evil" advertising. Quite frankly, since when was this about you and your petty feelings of rage, you self-indulgent little shit? God forbid that I deign advertise and allow this creation of mine to continue to provide for my employees, my customers, and (one day soon) my family for fear that I might inconvenience someone as important as you!
This is not about "making money instantly." This is about making a business work. Most businesses don't just make money "instantly." (In fact, most restaurants that fail will do so within the first year. The fact that we have survived this long and are now breaking even is a success in an of itself.) Businesses take time to build, and, if you don't advertise, then all of the enormous amount of time, money, and stress that you poured into that business will most likely be wasted and you'll be much worse off for having tried. In your preferred world, where no one advertised, then only super-rich people would be able to start businesses because only they would have the capital built up to weather then necessary storm while word-of-mouth advertising built up business. Middle-class folks like me would never be able to do it.
in fact, it's even simpler, the ultimate purpose is hapiness
I don't count myself lucky that I have young, inexperienced people telling me how "simple" it all is. You hav
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
it's not just a Microsoft problem - all marketing people are evil.
This was an example of advertising, which is not exactly the same thing as marketing. In a way, marketing and advertising are opposites of each other:
Advertising: Look at what your product line has, then try to get the marketplace to want it.
Martketing: Look at what the marketplace wants, then try to get your products to provide it.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
It's news for nerds. Microsoft's action, usually the type of things I listed above, are news because they impact nerds. Any everyone else, for that matter, even if they're unable to see it.
Here in Norway, if a company claims that their product(s) are the BEST, the official watchdogs ("marketing authorities") may ask the company for actual proof of this.
:-D
:-)
One important aspect of this prosess is that you can't just footnote* something and then "it's up to the consumer to investigate". It is the first impression whithin a few seconds that counts! If the advertisment has the "ability to mislead" than the authorities may choose to ask for evidence.
And the authorities don't accept no "bullshit-document" or study funded by the company where conclusions have been drawn in advance.
If the "marketing authorities" aren't convinsed by the "evidence" presented to them, they effectivly forbid the company to state that their product(s) are the best.
Punishment for breaking the prohibition is large fines (e.g. 80.000$) that cannot be appealed at any court.
Norwegian consumer-laws are very good
That's not entirely accurate. Ever heard of something called Terminal Services? I know it isn't in 2000 Professional, but 2000 Server had it. Multiple people can use the same computer at the same time over the network by using Remote Desktop. At school, we actually use this for the Mac users so they can use the few Windows-only programs we use.
*sigh* The world isn't broken up into Linux and Microsoft. This is "News for Nerds" ... not every 'nerd' uses Linux. Some use Macs, some use FreeBSD, and a very large proportion use MS products. If you want a Linux-specific news site, look elsewhere. It also says "NEWS" not "TECH NEWS". You can find that all over the place. There are more stories on /. than make the front page, particularly some of the more esoteric tech ones - have a look in the appropriate sections.
/. readers, particularly those after Linux news, but I will. This is relevant because the more it can be demonstrated that Linux is a viable alternative the more commercial funding it will receive. More commercial funding == more developers == better products. And because Linux is GPLed, that's always better for all the users. Take a look at some of the journaled filesystems as an example. AFAIK, none of them would have been developed without commercial (eg JFS) or military (ReiserFS) funding.
I shouldn't really need to point out why this is relevant to
If X is the new Y, and Y is "X is the new Y", solve for X.
Oh Please-You think we're stupid? I'm certain that the Microsoft Department that conducted the survey was indeed absolutelly independent from the Linux community.
If you're in the US, and the normal style of advertising is to use exaggerated or misleading claims to get your attention, then your attention can *only* be grabbed by other misleading or exaggerated claims (or naked bodies of course)- and it means that you'll assume that any ad is misleading and exaggerated - so the one from Microsoft is no big deal.
However, if you're in a country with stricter advertising laws, and you're used to seeing reasonable claims in ads, then why wouldn't you believe that the claims from Microsoft are real? You'd have no good reason to doubt those claims - and Microsoft shouldn't be able to make them because they are misleading.
But the point is here: Microsoft broke the law by advertising this way in the UK. I'm assuming that the law is clearly there, advertisers in the UK need to pay attention to that, and Microsoft did not.
-- Brendan Hills
- Sure, one Mainframe can run many virtservs, but what happens when you have one more box than the Mainframe can handle -- buy a whole new second mainframe with all the space, power, cooling, safety infrastructure and personnel maintenance requirements for that one $99/mo additional sale? Gee, throwing yet another $400 commodity PC on a rack sure sounds good right about now...
I'd love to see a webhost go z/OS with Linux servers. But one other problem is most of the successful webhosters offer their customers the choice of Windows, too. A commodity PC can be Linux, BSD or Windows relatively easily (Ghost). I haven't heard about Windows on z/OS quite yet...not even under Linux on a s/390.-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
As a certified member of the "liberati", I must absolutely agree. The man is a loon.
In fact, does anyone here know of a committee to unelect Blunkett?
Slackware user since 1997.
Could the, *grasp*, vote for a different party?
Holly cow, I have dicovered the holly grail of democracy!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is not like MS matters at all in the IT world.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
-Styrofoam IS biodegradable, you're just impatient!
Now THAT is funny!
That's what marketing is all about. Microsoft can concievably say that their statement about Linux compared to Microsoft is valid. It's basically a lie of omission. They left out the part about paying a whole lot on the computer used to support it. That's the point of a marketing committee, to find creative ways to get people to buy your product or follow your cause. It does come close on the line of ethics but most people will see, hey I will save money by buying from these people, a name that they already know very well.
RTFParent! My comment was not to the Article. I fully understand the article. My comment was to the parent post. Go find proper context for your chalk and cheese. Wash it down with a pee warm glass of STFU.
thanks for playing.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.