AMD's Personal Internet Communicator

mstefanus writes "SFGate.com has a story about AMD's 50x15 Personal Internet Communicator (PIC). It is basically a PC with an AMD Geode GX500 366MHz processor, 10GB hard drive and 128MB Memory; running some form of Windows CE. The device is intended as a cheap internet PC for the rest of the world population. AMDBoard has some pictures and specifications. The question is, will it run emm... FreeBSD?"

Comments

A modest proposal

[erick99]

I wonder if for $349, a hundred dollars more, they could produce a similar package for here in the US with a nic instead of a modem along with some sort of optical drive. I think they would sell like crazy. It would come with some newbie-friendly flavor of Linux and the user could always change that if they want, but why add a lot of cost upfront for an operating system. There are a lot of people in the US that will not be able to buy a computer unless they can get the price down to something like $350 or so. If this $249 machine can be profitable, then I think this $349 machine could be profitable as well and we'd be helping people here, as well as abroad. Or, am I just completely missing something?

Re:A modest proposal

[js7a]

Oh, they could do that for the same that audio modem costs, and libraries would snap them up (not schools, unless they run the Monocul^H^H^H^H^H^Hicrosoft OS.)

Re:A modest proposal

[RAMMS EIN]

``why add a lot of cost upfront for an operating system.''

Because it costs less that way. At least, I don't suppose the $ 300 computers have $ 250 Windows installations.

Re:A modest proposal

[Ping-Wu]

It appears to come with (at least) two USB ports. You can use a USB/ethernet card whose price has come down to the 20's, and will be even lower when becomes popular. I think the key is, will someone be able to run a special version of Linux on it?

Re:A modest proposal

[MadMorf]

I wonder if for $349, a hundred dollars more, they could produce a similar package for here in the US with a nic instead of a modem along with some sort of optical drive.

Yep, you're missing something.

You can already get AMD powered PCs, with onboard nic AND modem AND video AND so on, in the US for less than $350 and sometimes less than $300...

Look at Tiger Direct or sales at CompUSA or Best Buy...Or look on PriceWatch...

Getting cheap PCs in the US is not a problem.

Re:A modest proposal

[UWC]

I'd certainly consider buying something like that myself, but I would imagine that those who couldn't afford a computer for more than $350 also could not easily afford the broadband access that the inclusion of the NIC would imply. Granted, a NIC would only add a trivial amount to production cost and would increase the capabilities of the device significantly. Back to my initial point, I would imagine that dial-up would be a more affordable option for those who would benefit most from such a device. With the possible exception of the (I would assume) growing number of people who use local cell phones instead of a land line.

Re:A modest proposal

[ePhil_One]

Because it costs less that way. At least, I don't suppose the $ 300 computers have $ 250 Windows installations.

Strange math there. I agree the $250 computer does not have a $249 Windows CE installation, but it likely has a $15 to $20 installation. Heck, it might even be a $5, but its most most certainly some price p, where p > $0. Thus, we are certain that by utilizing Fedora/FreeBSD/ he unit will cost $p less or there will be $p more profit for the manufacturers.

Please explain how n-p > n when p is a non-zero positive number.

Re:A modest proposal

[DoraLives]

Computers are free once you learn how to do it.

Re:A modest proposal

[scribblez]

Sure, there are PCs around that price for more, but in what form factor?

I'm sure a fairly big selling point for that thing is the size.

If someone just wants one for their coffee table or something, just to check e-mail or whatnot, it'd be a pretty good product, and it wouldn't take that much room.

Re:A modest proposal

[Solder Fumes]

Not to mention being light-years ahead of these little 366MHz Geodes, in terms of raw speed.

Re:A modest proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

"...perfect nothing-to-lose...guide to getting the pieces..."

Nothing to lose except $15

Re:A modest proposal

[Camulus]

I know this is most likely bait, but the issue isn't that it would cost the company less. That is easy to figure out. It is that it would cost the consumer more if they wanted to run windows if it wasn't preloaded.

Re:A modest proposal

[KefabiMe]

As for the NIC, you can try getting one of those USB-2-Ethernet dongles and get it on a decent internet connection that way. It'd be a nice box to SSH into whenever I'm bored and not at home.

Re:A modest proposal

[poot_rootbeer]

I wonder if for $349, a hundred dollars more, they could produce a similar package for here in the US with a nic instead of a modem along with some sort of optical drive.

I can buy NIC cards off-the-shelf for $10 and DVD burners for $60. And that's not even bulk pricing.

There's no reason why they couldn't take your advice and still keep the MSRP under $300.

Re:A modest proposal

[westlake]

Or, am I just completely missing something

Walmart.com has XP Home systems starting at $300. All Desktops The reality is that economies of scale keep OEM Windows systems competitive with Linux even at the lowest price point.

Re:A modest proposal

[moontumbohotmail.com]

Look at Dell. Even shipping with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition, you can easily get one for $399. This is without any special deal or sale. If Dell would sell without an operating system, I think prices would easily fit within your 350 dollar threshhold.

Re:A modest proposal

[pla]

I wonder if for $349, a hundred dollars more, they could produce a similar package for here in the US with a nic instead of a modem along with some sort of optical drive.

From Pricewatch:
"Complete sys - Intel Celeron 2.0GHz 400FSB Win CD COA 128MB 20GBHD CDROM Video Sound Keyboard mouse USD$151, including shipping.

Add a monitor (15", $49 including shipping listed at pricewatch, or just look around - people can't give them away, I threw out three working 15-inchers just in the past six months), and you have a complete working system for $200 even. And while certainly not something I would trust my tax records to, still a FAR superior machine to this new little toy from AMD.


People who want absolutely rock-bottom prices for computers need to get out of the "Oh, did you buy a Dell or an HP" mindset.

Re:A modest proposal

[Glonoinha]

It's called the 400sc, and you can pick one up for $313 shipped right now from their small business division (they are blowing them out to clear the channel.)
See my sig for details, although my link may be out of date.

Re:A modest proposal

[ePhil_One]

It is that it would cost the consumer more if they wanted to run windows if it wasn't preloaded.

Ah! I responded to what you said and not what you meant. That of course is true. But note that its not running Windows XP Pro, its running Windows CE; and your comparison is roughly like saying "It would cost the consumer more to buy boat with a 50hp Evinrude outboard and replace it with a 50 hp Mercury outboard than if the manufacturer had just installed the Mercury in the first place". Assuming the interface was well designed, why would they rip out the stock interface to run MS's non-optimized interface? I can see several arguements that a tweaked Linux interfae would be faster than a generic Windows CE core, could be upgraded and maintained by the local populace, etc.

Re:A modest proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya you really need a nic card for the fab broadband in africa where they dont even have a shitter in the house.

Re:A modest proposal

[pilgrim23]

This is all well and good but.... It will never fly. Know why? For a decade America has been upgrading. That is, we have all traded in our 486 for a Pentium 65, for a Pentium 166, for a Pentium 2, 3 AMD, Cirix, and on and on. That original 486 running Win 3.1 with a 14.4 or 33.6 modem running Trumpet Winsock (rememebr that?) can get ont he Internet. And where did all that junk go? To the Third World by the dumptruck load!
A even more modest Pentium 300ish or a AMD K6-2 of about that speed on a socket 7 motherboard with 90-256mb memory a 2-6gb drive a 14" VGA.. load a bootleg 98SE and: you are in business! Cost? no 250 bucks, rather more like 20. Folks in Botswana would rather spend the $230 savings on FOOD! Poor folks do not buy new. Regardless of focus groups, break out sessions, and marketing strategies. I would strongly suggest to the good people who come up with these hair brained ideas to do their research somewhere that does not selll Late`. for example: Check the price at Goodwill.

Re:A modest proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't do Thurga a crapload of good that he can buy a broken down 7 year old computer for $20 here in the US, by the time he ships it to Botswana it will cost him $350. Then he needs the mad skillz to get a pirate OS and install it himself. Just so it can fail 3 months later from bouncing around a container ship after churning through a good chunk of the localy available electricity. Excellent plan, matey!

Now, when the Botswana educational system and the Botswana community center want to provide a way to communicate wit the outside world and research why they crops keep failing or what to do about that nasty lump growing on Jr's neck or maybe let somebody know the next tribe over used their $250 to by a couple used AK-47's so they could take everybody else's food, they have a means. The reason why the Western world has advanced farther in the last 20 years than it did from the first 5,000 years of man is communication. Spoken words to written words to printed books to telegraphs to telephones to radio to tv to computers to the internet. Buy 100 lbs of rice your village eats for 6 months, sell "native talismans" on eBay for 6 months and buy the first Botswana McDonalds franchise.

Re:A modest proposal

[Erik Hollensbe]

Not intended as a troll, but I'd be impressed if Fedora can run on this thing. Fedora with it's default GUI is inarguably HUGE in the resource department. Of course, a similar setup in FreeBSD would be no different, it's just that FBSD won't force this on you (neither will Fedora technically, but FreeBSD will be more up-front about it).

It'd be pretty cool if someone shaped a distro complete with GUI (a FreeBSD sub-install would be welcome, too) that was built to take advantage of smaller computers like this. In the last 6 years or so I've taken to installing as little as possible (Debian's 30M base or FreeBSD's "minimal") and working up from there, because the amount of stuff that the alternative brings is either a package selection nightmare or an exercise in seeing how much disk space will be wasted on unused applications.

That said, one of these machines would make a great hobby server.

Re:A modest proposal

[Erik Hollensbe]

Heh, but apparently learning how to do it isn't. Funny how that works.

Re:A modest proposal

[DShard]

Cost of power would be the only issue. If this is aimed at the third world then cost of power is a _huge_ issue. If you can mitigate that cost and provide good enough processing muscle then it is a better solution.

Re:A modest proposal

[petsounds]

Perhaps the Western world has advanced technologically farther in the last 20 years than the last 5000, but we have certainly not advanced much farther as a society. In fact, in some ways ancient Greece was a more civilized society. And what do we have these days? Basically a 2nd Roman Empire, this time as the Pax Americana -- civility and peace through superior technological and economic might. Except we're not doing quite so well as the Romans.

The one point I agree with you on is that giving these people internet access would open the floodgates of cultural exchange and gathered knowledge, and the sharing of ideas is the best way for humanity to evolve.

Re:A modest proposal

[BrianH]

Yes, but you don't even need Internet access to make this thing useful. What use would they have for a computer without Internet? We tend to be spoiled for space in our world of MP3's, video files, and multigigabyte games, but we cannot forget that a gigabyte is a LOT of data. A 20 gigabyte hard drive can hold as much text as an ENTIRE LIBRARY.

You have to look at these types of products in the context of how their going to be used. Nobody living in a shack in Botswana is going to be surfing EBay on this, and a Ghanian tribesman isn't going to give a flying rock about how it runs Half Life 2. What they're going to care about is the fact that they can add an entire library to their remote village for $249 thats compact enough to be easily moved when the river rises and they have to evacuate on foot every spring, thats integrated and durable enough so that they won't have to worry about shaking the PCI cards loose if they set it down too hard, and that will draw little enough power to run happily on their villages 20 watt in-stream hydro generator or 15 watt solar panel without frying itself.

The world is a lot bigger than the west people, and this type of hardware is badly needed in many parts of the world. Yes, you can probably piece one together using cheap Internet sourced parts for a lower cost, but will it have the durability, the low power consumption, and the ease of transport that this thing offers? Can you honestly tell me that Bahooba the tribal elder, who has probably never even held a phillips screwdriver in his entire life, would be better off building his own PC? These people need something braindead simple...plug in the wire, turn it on, and use it. When you live in an area where the nearest computer tech is 100 miles away on foot, you don't have the luxury of buying untested hardware configurations and calling for support when you run into a problem.

Re:A modest proposal

[b-baggins]

---
Except we're not doing quite so well as the Romans.
---

So true. We suck at imperialism. I mean we aren't even installing governors, demanding tribute, rounding up the people for census and special tax levies, creating dual citizenship laws and privileges in the tribute state or taking local leaders hostage to Washington D.C. to keep the local populations in line. Instead we do things like train local armies, establish democratic governments and push for free and independent elections. You are so right, we need to start running our empire like the Romans.

Re:A modest proposal

[b-baggins]

---
The world is a lot bigger than the west people, and this type of hardware is badly needed in many parts of the world.
---

So in one breath, you point out the silliness of viewing the third-world with western-centric thinking, then in the next, you foist off on us the western-centric view that internet access is as vital to third world economies as it is to western economies.

Re:A modest proposal

[MaxQuordlepleen]

I'm truly curious - in what ways do you think the ancient Greeks were more civilized than our present day society? Highly civilized for the time, sure. Even culturally brilliant. But more civilized?

Re:A modest proposal

[MaxQuordlepleen]

I recently needed to find something similar for an old Thinkpad 365 I bought for my wife.

Imagine my surprise when a group of charitable and enterprising geeks have produced the very thing, in my own backyard (I live in Guelph, a few miles down the road from Kitchener.)

It's called the Working Center Linux Project, homepage, and in their words:

The Working Centre Linux Project is a Debian-based distribution geared towards low-powered computers (25mhz 486s w/16MB ram/400MB disk). The project exists to provide cheap, legal software, familiar software for refurbished computers - software usable for those who have never used computers, or those who have only used a Windows environment.

Re:A modest proposal

[Cplus]

We're far superior to the ancient Greeks, we kill much more effectively.

Re:A modest proposal

[petsounds]

I'm going to assume that your reply was sarcastic in intent and tone. So I will offer a couple of examples as counterpoints to a belief that the Bush administration's motives are non-imperial in nature:

1. From a NYT article: "The [Bush] aide said that guys like me [the writer] were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''"

2. Now if you believe that the above quote is just heresay and didn't come from the horse or asses' mouth, I would direct you to browse the pages of The Project For a New American Century: I would in particular direct you to this page, which is their statement of principles, and which lists among the signees such members of the Bush administration as Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld. In fact, 10 of the 18 signatories of the PNAC doctrine have positions in the Bush administration.

Now whether you believe an American global empire is a good thing or not is up to your particular political compass, but it is hard to refute the evidence that the neo-cons and superhawks in the Bush administration are carrying out their plans to expand America's reach for political and economic gain, and for what they believe is the safety and prosperity of America as a whole. They want an empire.

Re:A modest proposal

[Cerebus]

[...] you foist off on us the western-centric view that internet access is as vital to third world economies as it is to western economies.

Yes, indeed it is.

Re:A modest proposal

[notthe9]

A lot of us here are going to be just that way. We love tinkering with them, learning about them, helping others with them. Who says they have to appeal to that crowd?

Plenty of people I know bought one and it just kind of sits there, even maybe getting used reasonably often, until they have a good reason to replace it. They don't see computers as a great tool, fun to mess with, but as this thing they have to deal with. They want an interactive TV... they don't care about power, they don't care about upgradability, they want something stable that can surf the web and write documents. A Geode machine is apt to be quiet and small, just what that crowd would like. Hardware controlled means it has a chance at being stable. This will reach a previously unreached segment.

Re:A modest proposal

[phrostypoison]

Use Linux and it'll be cheaper still.

Re:A modest proposal

[b1scuit]

...where the nearest computer tech is 100 miles away on foot...

With my car and technical know-how, I could make a killing!

Re:A modest proposal

[arivanov]

Let's suppose the OS vendor is sponsoring it as a locking method for the rest of the world. CE is nearly pointless to pirate, it can also be made to run on custom hardware that does not have BIOS and legacy booting procedure (I bet this one does not) and you can make sure that it runs only non-pirated apps by shipping DRM at the hardware level. While AMD has been courting linux it has also been more then happy to be used as shock troops by one well known Redmond company. The testimony of AMD chairman to the MSFT antitrust trial is a prime example. There are others.

Personally I expect Gates foundation or even MSFT itself sponsors these further down to under 100 quid for schools and local government in the 3rd world.

Re:A modest proposal

[raju1kabir]

I'd certainly consider buying something like that myself, but I would imagine that those who couldn't afford a computer for more than $350 also could not easily afford the broadband access that the inclusion of the NIC would imply.

In China, 512K DSL costs $10/month (works pretty well too, even in moderately out-of-the-way places) and at the moment they're adding one million new users every month. It's the most amazing feat of communications infrastructure development out there.

Someone who spends $350 on a computer is right on track to spend $10/month for connectivity.

Re:A modest proposal

[pyite69]

> I wonder if for $349, a hundred dollars more,
> they could produce a similar package for here in
> the US with a nic instead of a modem

You have to start somewhere! I'll bet this platform will last quite awhile, especially if there are new features popping up all the time.

I'll bet that a USB nic will work nicely in the meantime.

Re:A modest proposal

[wonkavader]

I don't know whether consumers will want this. Consumers want games and speed.

But I, as a corporate guy, want one of these (with a processor and memory configuration good enough for open office) on every desk in our office. I want to standardize on Linux or a BSD derivitive, open office, and centralize administration.

That's been tried in the past, of course, with java stations, for instance, but the applications were never there, and the machines we REALLY slow, and they were priced too high. We're finally getting to a place where a practically disposable machine can be able to run everything we want.

Lowish power (yeah, a faster box would consume a lot more power than this), less desk space, less bickering about new machines, less worries about stuff the employees install, spyware, and security. Less spent upfront on machines, less spent on desktop support.

Obviously the machine I want isn't this machine. But it's getting close. And when a company decides to go this route, the company would be 30, or a 100, or a few thousand at a time.

Re:A modest proposal

[Erik Hollensbe]

Interesting! Thanks for the link.

Re:A modest proposal

[sapgau]

Yes because any country not in the G8 has to constantly worry about when the river is going to flood... give me a break.

For once, make a trip longer than to your local mall to get a better perspective of the developing world. Not all that you hear at Starbucks is necessarly true.

Re:A modest proposal

[timts]

a dell deal for x30 is 624M CPU, it runs pocketpc but it has WIFI!, for only $264...

a doubt the bulky useless stuff will sell much

Re:A modest proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

outpost.com has a AMD Sempron right now (full case comp, no monitor, keyboard, etc.) for under $200, comes with Linspire, how much cheaper can you get?

Didn't this already fail once...

[tha_mink]

Didn't the consumer market decide that it didn't want this type of thing before? What was that thing that Be INC made again? (besides failure)

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[Trailwalker]

This might be acceptable in the target market:

Initially, the PC will be sold in India, Russia, China, Mexico and Brazil.

I doubt it would do well in the United States or Western Europe.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[ajlitt]

RTFA. Duh. This machine was designed with the intent of being used in economically disadvantaged areas. Cheap and rugged are what this machine is targeting.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Yes exactly. Back in 98/99, the big hype in embedded computing circles was things called "set-top boxes" (read things like WebTV boxes). Everybody absolutely *had* to get into doing set-top boxes, despite the astoundingly dismal sales volumes. That trend has come and gone thank goodness.

So, while this thing is technically better (it uses a computer screen, not a TV), it is definitely more expensive (the usually accepted price point for set-top boxes is $100), and it is proven the public doesn't give a flying fuck about them. So the question is, what is it those guys are hoping to achieve here?

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they failed on the US market, but as the article mention, it is not for the US market.

As Christensen says, some products neeed diferent markets in order to thrive.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[duck_oil]

Be made BeBoxes. I never thought of them as el cheapo small boxxen like this AMD box. They used dual PPC chips in the later versions and dual CPUs from AT&T in the first models. Here's a /. article about Be.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[Erik Hollensbe]

Actually, you'd be surprised at the winners of this war.

The dreamcast had this capability out of the box. I know a few people that don't otherwise have a computer, but send me email through that little white box. I've used it a few times to surf from the living room, but it's found a permanent place in my closet until I get the hankering to boot a unix on it again. :P

I believe there is a setup for the XBox as well, and there are still plenty of WebTV users - ask any guy in tech support at a reasonably sized ISP.

It may not be the large market they expected, but the market they were looking to attract did bite hard.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[tha_mink]

Be made BeBoxes. I never thought of them as el cheapo small boxxen like this AMD box. They used dual PPC chips in the later versions and dual CPUs from AT&T in the first models. Here's a /. article about Be.

Right, then they had a "Focus Change" and decided to throw all their efforts into an "Internet Device" called BeIA, cementing their corporate failure.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[duck_oil]

Right, then they had a "Focus Change" and decided to throw all their efforts into an "Internet Device" called BeIA, cementing their corporate failure.

If their boxes weren't selling I'd focus on BeOS and BeIA as well. When NeXT realized they weren't gonna sell hardware, they focused on software and were than worth $400 million when Apple was looking for something. Apple was looking at Be as well, but for a variety of reasons I won't get into, chose NeXT instead.

Re:Didn't this already fail once...

[Ohreally_factor]

I was at the AFI (American Film Institute) in 99/2000, and the big hype (or one of the big hypes) was how Interactive TV was going to transform the media landscape. Play at home game shows where the audience would compete for prizes, click to purchase product placement, yadda yadda yadda. That's what set top boxes were going to be all about.

The mantra is still the same: "Convergence"

The only thing missing is...

[spudthepotatofreak]

Uhm... A nic card, please? Nobody really uses that dial-up thing anymore do they? :P

Re:The only thing missing is...

[j1m 5n0w]

If I was buying it, I'd rather have a nic, but the indended market is less industrialized countries, where broadband probably isn't widely available. In that context, a modem makes sense. Hopefully, it'll have a free pci slot or something.

-jim

Re:The only thing missing is...

[ePhil_One]

but the indended market is less industrialized countries

I suspect this may be a case of not knowing your mrkets. In less industrialized markets, copper phone lines are rare. Cellular phones, WiFi, and other new technologies will be the source of connectivity.

Re:The only thing missing is...

[imsabbel]

The whole thing is smaller than a pci-card, so no slots available.
But its really good that you can get nearly everything for usb, nowadays...

Re:The only thing missing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, a NIC would be good here in the developed world, but it might be less useful in a developing country. Like another poster said, being able to connect it to a cell phone would be most useful. Granted, GPRS isn't going to be broadband by any means, but many countries have better cell networks than landline networks.

Actually, though, if it has a USB port, then it should be possible to get it connected to a cell phone. However, I hope AMD is planning on providing the software to make this all work. After that, it's just a matter of getting the cell companies to offer GPRS at a reasonable price.

What will be most useful in all this is a robust selection of accessories at low prices. For example, some people may be able to get wi-fi, so a cheap receiver needs to be available. Some people will want a CD burner, so have that available also. It's true that these add-ons will drive up the price, but if they're optional, then people can buy what they need and can afford.

There's really no reason computer hardware can't be cheaper than it is. What's happened is that we've been put on the upgrade treadmill and enticed to buy ever more powerful hardware. Truth is, a chip like the P-II or AMD K6-3 with, say, 64 MB of RAM would still be useful, provided you can find software to use on it. Problem is, the hardware and software vendors need us to keep upgrading so they can keep selling more products. That's fine for those of us who want the latest and greatest computer out there, but grandma and grandpa, plus a lot of other people, don't want and/or can't afford that. They just need something to do word processing and to get online, which a less powerful machine will do just fine, but good luck finding older components that are still being manufactured at low prices. Just because these are low-margin items doesn't mean they're not going to be profitable, so I'm hoping that, if this low-end computer is successful, hardware and software makers might expand their product line to make cheap computers a mass-market item that everyone can afford.

Re:The only thing missing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm... A nic card, please? Nobody really uses that dial-up thing anymore do they? :P

NIC means network interface card so you said "network interface card card"

You suck suck

Re:The only thing missing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, he was a little redundant by saying that, but, then again, many people say it. You could have been a little more civil when you mentioned it, and the point would have been just as valid and probably more well-received by the poster.

So, what's worse, being redundant or acting like a prick when you point it out?

Oh, and BTW, you forgot to end your sentences with periods, so before you go off acting cocky about your mastery of the meaning of NIC, make sure you've mastered basic grammar.

Re:The only thing missing is...

[j1m 5n0w]

I suspect this may be a case of not knowing your mrkets. In less industrialized markets, copper phone lines are rare.

I suppose that depends on where you are. I stayed in Bandung, Indonesia once for a few weeks. Electrity was unreliable, and the city water system was a maze of pvc pipe and garden hoses. I didn't see many computers, but a lot of people had TVs. There were phone lines there, and dialup internet access (I wish I'd saved the output from a traceroute I did back to the States). A moderately expensive meal was about $1. A hotel room was about $5-$10 a night. This is probably the sort of market AMD is targeting: places where basic infrastructure is present (if not reliable), but a midrange computer is still astronomically expensive for the average person.

-jim

No,

[Scythr0x0rs]

The question is, will it run emm... FreeBSD?
It'll run FreeBSD. The question is,
will it run windows?

Re:No,

[shredluc]

Why on earth would you want to run that dead os.... Which os? That choice is yours. :)

Re:No,

[gmaestro]

I't may eventually run FreeBSD, but I think the NetBSD folks have already have a beta out.

Re:No,

[Erik Hollensbe]

I know this is tongue in c... .... too easy.

Re:No,

[Jafar00]

The real question is, can you send the license back to Micro$oft for a refund? ;)
Then you could find a way to put whatever OS you liked on it. :)

Re:No,

[DeathByDuke]

Yes, Obviously not as stable as BSD. And it'll let the cat in the backdoor.

Perfect

[Pan T. Hose]

This is a perfect killer-application for Gmail. Now Google should concentrate on persistent documents (a la Office) productivity suit, and no one will ever need a desktop PC with a hard drive. Is this how the future will look like?

Re:Perfect

[lxt518052]

Excuse me. But... with a 56k modem?

Re:Perfect

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Yes, for very small documents.

Re:Perfect

[rainman_bc]

Bollocks! Downloading MP3's, itunes, uploading tunes to ipod, photo editing, video editing, etc etc.

You cannot make a vanilla system that'll replace the OS. I've seen this post a dozen times, probaly from you a few of those. It's a stupid idea. That'll never happen.

Ever heard of citrix? You can host out apps using a citrix farm if you like. So this can be done today, with nothing but a standard web browser, yet it isn't widely adopted.

Re:Perfect

[sleeper0]

been there done that www.desktop.com It didn't make it in the bubble its not going to make it now. Its just a lot easier and more appealing for people to use a dekstop model as opposed to a terminal model.

Re:Perfect

[Erik Hollensbe]

Ever heard of X?

Before you whipper-snappers were taught java, some of us were writing programs in Emacs on HP machines that were running CDE over XDMCP.

Yeah, it sucked.

Re:Perfect

[Erik Hollensbe]

This is what I really need in a desktop computer:

- A shell with a modern, standard unix toolkit. For all intents and purposes, it could just wire me straight into a text interface that lets me launch ssh connections complete with keys.

- Ability to launch GUI applications.

Everything else is for games or servers. Ideally, I'd like to have a nice interface, which is why I got a mac. But in reality, most of the cycles I use happen on a FreeBSD box about 20 miles from here.

That said, contorting the current web to perform applications (such as MAIL CLIENTS or DOCUMENT EDITORS) which were not meant for it is pretty freaking silly. And mucking with apache guts until they output "hey, buy this shit!" is what I do for a living.

Already down...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe amdboard was using one of those as their server.

Um... No.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Not in my opinion.

I think that is still too expensive of a computer to get into the hands of those that don't have one. A second hand 1GHz computer would probably be a lot cheaper and more suitable for running modern browsers. At least this is pretty power efficient, but even Via probably has more powerful CPUs that are sufficiently low power.

Re:Um... No.

[Chris Burke]

I agree. Their goal is to provide computers that just about anyone will be able to buy, where "just about anyone" includes rural China. $185 is way too much.

Re:Um... No.

[Twixter]

The other problem I see with the approach is, not only is it too much, but all that pirated Microsoft software you get in third world countries won't run on it. Oh wait...hmmm. The I'm sure the Bill and Malinda Gates foundation would support Linx on a cheap box in forigen countries if that was the best solution the people of the world....right?

Re:Um... No.

[waferhead]

A 366Mhz Geode is not going to suck anywhere remotely near the power required by (anything else)

In a LOT of places, solar/wind or bicycle generator power *will* be able to run these.

Re:Um... No.

[Antique Geekmeister]

You forgot power consumption. Electrical power consumption really matters to the third-world market.

Does it have a USB port? If so, you can use that for the NIC.

Re:Um... No.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I realize that 1W at 366MHz is fantastic, but a 1GHz Via Eden chip consumes 7 watts maximum. I realize that is 7x the Geode chip but the same chip can apparently dynamically scale to 533MHz and run at 2.5W. I don't know what the comparative compute performances are though but I have to think if someone is going to pay $200 for this, electricity isn't going to be a problem. I think it really should be a $100 computer if it is going for those that don't have a computer already.

Re:Um... No.

[BrianH]

You would be thinking incorrectly then. In many of the worlds poorest and most remote areas power is provided either by small solar or hydro sources that generate incredibly small amounts of power by our standards. There are entire villages powered by instream hydro generators that produce no more than 20-30 watts of power, which is then spread to 10-15 homes. These homes often just have one 3 watt bulb (like a baby's nightlight), and maybe a very small radio. In a situation like that, the difference between a 1 watt processor and a 7 watt processor is enormous.

Did you read the article?

[BoomerSooner]

It will cost $185 just for the computer, and $249 for both the computer and a 15-inch monitor.

Why did I ask?

Re:First Post?

[LittleGuernica]

Does it run solitaire?, because I know some people who would be satisfied with that, they don't need an AMD 64

Of course it runs...

[RAMMS EIN]

Of course it will run any BSD or Linux. Even ITS. That is, if people port them.

Personally, I think I the popular FOSS OSes won't have any trouble with this one.

Re:Of course it runs...

[grm_wnr]

Of course it will run any BSD or Linux

Everything does, sooner or later. It is INEVITABLE.

Re:Of course it runs...

[Shulai]

The real matter is, $185 without monitor is a nice low pricetag (even when high for its performance, as already noted).
But I want to know the price *without* Win CE.
I find personally no reason to use/want any crippled OS, no XP Starter, no WinCE.

Re:Of course it runs...

[CatLord42]

Of course it will run any BSD or Linux

Everything does, sooner or later. It is INEVITABLE.

Let me know when you get Linux or BSD to run on your electric toothbrush!

Re:Of course it runs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, maybe on a Beowulf cluster of toothbrushes ...

Back to the future?

[mcmonkey]

no one will ever need a desktop PC with a hard drive

We'll just have dumb terminals. Isn't that how the past looked like?

SIGN ME UP

[Anonymous Coward]

That thing looks SWEET. I want one for use in my living room so I can chuck the ancient PC that chugs in the living room with a nice quiet little box that no one will notice... and under $300!!

Damn. I want one now. Even 500 mhz would be more than enough for that pc; the current one is only 700mhz.

Re:SIGN ME UP

[RAMMS EIN]

``Even 500 mhz would be more than enough for that pc; the current one is only 700mhz.''

And guess what? It has a 366 MHz CPU with the capabilities of a 486. Maybe you want to reconsider, although it should do fine - I have a 200 MHz Pentium here that people happily run KDE 3.2 on (under FreeBSD).

Re:SIGN ME UP

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

300 bucks for that, you must be mad.

I'd bite for $150, just barely, if I saw a BIOS screen that'd give me some reasonable indication that I could wipe out CE and install something useful. But *man*, $300!

Re:SIGN ME UP

[toddestan]

A 700Mhz machine that's "ancient"? You youngsters! Any PC that is fast enough to run some flavor of Windows past 2.0 is not ancient!

Re:SIGN ME UP

[petecarlson]

Get an ia1 off of ebay for $40 and put midori on it with a WUS11 usb wirless adapter (ver 2.5). Nice small fanless box from which you can check your email, browse the web, or even stream mp3s off your network. Total cost is well under $100.

with a hard drive?

[JLavezzo]

> no one will ever need a desktop PC with a hard drive.

It has a 10Gb hard drive...

excellent!

[Coneasfast]

just what i was looking for. i need something for http/ftp/print/etc server. and also something for a freebsd firewall, a full computer would be too much.

good job AMD (if it runs FreeBSD)!

Re:excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

one modem port a firewall does not make

Re:excellent!

[bprime]

You'll be running all of those services over the 56K modem then i take it? :)

In all honesty, though, the cost of this box and the USB ethernet adaptors that you'll need will be roughly the same as a decent refurb IBM ThinkCentre (or some other equally small desktop PC) that will have WAY more power.

Re:excellent!

[tmasssey]

Why in the world would you not want to use a Mini ITX? Here is a 533MHz Eden CPU (no fan), 128MB RAM, 80GB hard drive, CD-ROM drive and a PCI slot for $342 (or less than $300 without the CD-ROM).

Twice the speed, 8 times the storage, more expandable and cheaper? What's the appeal of the AMD device?

Re:excellent!

[burns210]

maybe netbsd for the pocketPC platform, but not a native x86 OS, sadly.

Re:excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

one modem port a firewall does not make

Think of it as in-built hardware DoS protection.

Re:excellent!

[Lehk228]

that will have WAY more power.

And will also DRAW way more power, as well as put out more heat.

Re:excellent!

[Echnin]

$300 instead of $185? Cheaper? Remember, the $250 price is with a monitor.

Re:excellent!

[CTho9305]

The CPU is a Geode. Geodes are x86 CPUs - they even run linux just fine.

Re:excellent!

[Anonymous Coward]

because this runs at about 1/3 the power consumption...

Re:excellent!

[rsborg]

just what i was looking for. i need something for http/ftp/print/etc server. and also something for a freebsd firewall, a full computer would be too much.

Jeez, if you want a microserver, check out a kurobox... it uses Linux. Or maybe go and mod a Linksys NSLU2. Both of these products are $185, and come with NAS/light server profile software already, and are hackable.

wow, slick case

[donscarletti]

It's incredible that a gadget that is designed to be cheap, utilitarian and mass produced still looks better than any custom riced up case mods I have ever seen before.

Kinda sad really.

Re:wow, slick case

[AndroidCat]

But isn't that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle colour-scheme a little 1992ish?

Re:wow, slick case

[shredluc]

Actually, it kinda reminds me of my mom's foot massager...

Re:wow, slick case

[Anonymous Coward]

yourself?

Why ship it with WinCE?

[PornMaster]

If it's got a 10GB HD, why's it using WinCE? performance on a slow CPU? How have the WinCE apps done security-wise vs. Win32 apps for "regular" Windows?

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[RAMMS EIN]

I didn't even know WinCE was still developed/sold/supported. I thought it had been replaced by Pocket PC.

Anyway, this device obviously cries for an open source OS.

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[lxt518052]

I guess the WinCE is embedded on its mobo, so that users won't screw it up. Since there's no optical drive or fast network, reinstall the OS will be such a pain and due to Windows' susceptibility to virus, worms and other vulnerabilities in itself, a embedded os would be better to the average joe.

Still, I don't think this will be a viable thing. The processor's too slow for modern applications and it's networking ability is so limited.

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, it could run perfectly fine with, say, Win98 or Win2K. People don't realize this, but back in the day 128 MB and a 10 GB hardrive was huge. And even today, I know people using those. You really don't need more than 200 MHz for running a web browser [although I can't explain why Firefox takes 5 seconds to start up on my 1.6 GHz PC].

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[dotcher]

PocketPC is built on CE as a base - CE is a kernel and some services, and includes things like a shell and a command line interpreter, both based on desktop Windows.

PocketPC replaces the shell, adds some apps, and has the configuration tweaked for the specific device it's on. The smartphone variant is similiar.

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[Lehk228]

windows CE is an actual RealTime OS, Pocket PC is primarily a PDA OS

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[dotcher]

Aye, the CE kernel is RT - but that doesn't stop you from building non-RT apps like PocketPC ontop of it.

(I doubt that it's still suitable to be used in time-critical applications with the PocketPC shell loaded, though, but you should still get realtime response to device interrupts and the like, even on the consumer devices.)

Re:Why ship it with WinCE?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to break it to you, but Win2k and XP run great on ~300MHz machines, as long as the rest of the hardware is up to par. This means at least a UDMA/33 disk, and a healthy amount of memory (128MB+)

I recently set up a used computer for a friend, a PII-266 /w 256MB RAM, single 8GB UDMA/33 disk, and an old Permedia 2 AGP card. I was surprised at how fast Win2k ran on it.

My parents use XP on a Celeron 600. It runs great. Of course, proper maintenance is essential. As soon as any spyware permeates an older computer like this, things crawl to a halt.

Soooo....

[Barret7SC]

Where is my $200 WinTerminal?

If they can build a machine like this with a 10gb HDD in it for $250, why can't I get a think client running CE for $150 or $200?

Re:Soooo....

[Performaman]

RealVNC has to have a client for WinCE.

Does it at least play mp3s?

[JVert]

Hey bob, renember when I was asking for a low powered handheld computer that I could only use if I plugged in a monitor keyboard and mouse? And you said "thats the stupidest fucking I idea I ever had, if i'm going to take someones copmuter over its much easier to knoppix and thumbdrive it."
Well you were right bob. And um, i'm sorry.

xbox?

[duranaki]

Seems like you could just hack an xbox to get better performance for cheaper. And already as NIC card and optical drive. Someone just needs to start selling hacked xbox to third world countries. The best part is the M$ subsidizes their cost, so it really would be charity. :)

Re:xbox?

[grm_wnr]

While this is funny, the PIC will actually sell for $185, which is not much more expensive than a chipped XBOXX. The $249 price is for the PIC AND a 15" monitor.

Re:xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

Network Interface Card card.

Re:xbox?

[catch23]

Maybe... but then the xbox is big and won't fit in your pocket. This thing looks like 2-times the size of a normal hard drive. I think a big factor here is the size of the device, not the power, price, or bang for the buck. For $185 sans the monitor, it's actually decently priced.

I could see people sticking these things in cars because they could easily hide the device under a seat or in the glove compartment. Since it has usb slots, bring that 1GB usb storage key chain and you have a relatively cheap mp3 player. Add a usb camera, and you've got a miniture security device. I'm sure the thing runs on pretty low power so hooking it up to the car battery shouldn't drain it too badly.

Re:xbox?

[IvanD]

And again you're lossing the point. So the real market of this thing are spoiled guys, just because it looks cool... and they will have to update to the next one to watch some movies on the LCD installed on the back of the seats.

I agree with some people who believe it can be, and in fact it is done lot cheaper by other companies.

By the way, do you think they won't sell hacked Xbox consoles in third world countries? Well.. they do hack them because you cannot affort to pay US$50 for each game when you can get pirate CDs for US$3 at the corner.

Get back to reality! Not every one want to have the coolest gadget... if you have money, make a hole on your BMW dashboard and mount your Vaio [http://www.winstontiao.com/bmw_z3_roadster.htm], if you don't ... too bad.. buy an iPod it has now 30GB more (you can even get it for free if you believe in those mails). But please don't try to make this fancy old PC look like the last resort for 3rd world countries when cheaper (not so cool.. sorry) machines can be built. If money is an issue... I don't think you'll look for the PC that glows at night.

WFW 3.11

[Anonymous Coward]

It has enough power to run Windows 3.11, It will be able to run MacOS when it will grow up

Cheaper

[Colonel Panic]

If they want it even cheaper they should dump Windows in favor of Linux (or as the OP suggested, FreeBSD)...
It should be more reliable too.

Re:Cheaper

[akac]

Its not all about cheaper. You have to integrate it and make it work.

I know several companies that have gone with CE instead of Linux because it would have cost far more to get the featureset they wanted in development time AND it would make the release schedule much longer.

CE is a very small cost compared to time lost in the market and the cost of getting the developers to do what is needed to bring the product up to a certain level.

Re:Cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

Why more reliable? Modern Windows releases, if used correctly (just like Linux and BSD) are very, very stable. Contrast this to all the Linux distros with bugs-du-jour ("Oh, foo-1.53 has a problem with libbar-0.42RC2") and there's not a great argument.

An immodest proposal

[shis-ka-bob]

I wonder if they could strip it down and get rid of the hard drive and use a bootable Ethernet card. If you are on a lan with a NFS server running dhcpd, rarpd and tftpd, you can have the computer boot as a diskless workstation. Convince your ISP to run these services and privide users with a home directory. That would be a sweet way to provide a zero maintenance PC to anyone. Diskless FreeBSD is discussed at http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/09/09/diskles s_server.html

Re:An immodest proposal

[BoomerSooner]

The Link (spaces excluded)

Re:An immodest proposal

[sootman]

Two-part article, in fact.

Re:First Post?

[Anonymous Coward]

more like wp.
worst post

This looks b-i-g...

[dtjohnson]

the box might be small but the idea looks big. Next will come the console-like games and then...

USB nic!

[Visaris]

It has several USB ports. Just plug in a USB nic and 20$ later you have 100Base-T.

FreeBSD? Who cares?

[karlandtanya]

FreeBSD is not Linux

If it's not Scottish^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Linux, it's CRAP.

When will this day end? In about 30 minutes.

Modem vs. NIC

[Ping-Wu]

It just appears to be that you can easily add an NIC card via its USB port, but not modem. Looks like this is an ingenius, well-thought-of design. I want one if it runs a strip down version of Fedora.

Re:Modem vs. NIC

[3nuff]

Heck yeah! Just plug in that Prism based WiFi nic (DLink DWL-133) and you're in business.

If only it had a monitor...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already faster than my laptop, has a bigger HD, and more RAM. If it only had a keyboard and monitor, along with some sort of battery-based PSU, I would have a nice laptop replacement.

Anyway, my point is that this thing is qualified to run Win2k, so why run WinCE on it?

aQazaQa

Budget... yeah right

[rackhamh]

$249 is cheap here, but does it qualify as a "budget" machine in the target markets (India, Russia, China, Mexico and Brazil)? According to this site, the average income in Brazil's largest metropolitan areas is less than $300 a month!

Re:Budget... yeah right

[Unknown Relic]

$249 is cheap here, but does it qualify as a "budget" machine in the target markets (India, Russia, China, Mexico and Brazil)? According to this site, the average income in Brazil's largest metropolitan areas is less than $300 a month!

How is this different than the situation for people in developed nations ten years ago? I remember paying over $3000 CAD for a 486 DX2/66 with a 15" monitor - my first "real" computer - back when the Pentiums were just coming out. At the time that was sure as hell an equally large chunk of my (and most) family's monthly income.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[rewt66]

The personal computer revolution in the US had a lot of computers that cost one month's average income (or more), back in the 1980s. We still bought an awful lot of them, and the computer revolution took off here.

The computer doesn't have to be "budget" in the sense of "find that much money in the couch cushions". But if the average person can manage to get their hands on one if they try reasonably hard, that's a big deal.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[rackhamh]

Read the article again. It refers to the machines TWICE as "low-cost". A month's income is not low-cost.

Within the realm of possiblity? Sure. Equatable to the early prices that we paid for PCs in the U.S.? OK. But low cost? Not by a long shot.

Even in the U.S., there are people living out of hotels because they can't afford the first and last month's rent deposit on an apartment. You think they'd be able to afford a computer? You think it's gonna be any easier for people in the third world?

This is a computer being sold in the third world. It is NOT, as the article claims, a low-cost solution.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[solistus]

It's not supposed to be "budget" in our sense of the word- no one is suggesting that an internet-ready machien will ever be cheap enough for a Mexican, Brazillian, or Russian working class family to shrug off the expense. However, $249 is entering the feasible range- it would be like an American working class family buying an iMac. Sure, it's a big expense, but if they really want to it's not totally unreasonable.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[Unknown Relic]

Comparared to a $1000 or even entry level $500 machine it IS low cost. Whereas before in those countries computers could be afforded only by the wealthy and other institutions, they are now in the realm of affordability for the average citizen. I suggest YOU read the article again. No where does it say that the machines are cheap for those living in the areas, just that the machines themselves are low cost compared to what else is available - enough so to be affordable to those who want one.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[poot_rootbeer]

According to this site, the average income in Brazil's largest metropolitan areas is less than $300 a month!

I spent nearly a month's net pay on the last home computer I bought myself. Granted, it wasn't a low-cost trailing-edge special, but it wasn't a bleeding-edge riced-out xtreme gaming machine either; just a name-brand home PC model with a more-powerful-than-average configuration.

Expecting a third-world resident to expend a month's pay on an Internet-ready computer (that would more than likely become a resource for their entire community) doesn't seem TOO far-fetched to me.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[poot_rootbeer]

This is a computer being sold in the third world. It is NOT, as the article claims, a low-cost solution.

I'd like to see you try to build a computer, using only new components, capable of running modern software, for any less than this device.

Okay, you've tossed Windows and installed a Linux distro, and it saved you maybe $20. What next?

Re:Budget... yeah right

[rackhamh]

"affordable to those who want one"

Umm... no. You imply that at this price point, desire is the only remaining factor in determining whether a person should buy a computer.

I suggest that you don't know what it means to be truly poor. It doesn't mean deciding whether or not to splurge on a bigger hard drive, or whether to get your kid a radio or a bike for Christmas. It means choosing between food and medication.

My point isn't that these computers aren't CHEAPER than what's currently available. Of course they are. I just don't think they'll be nearly as accessible as the article suggests they are.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[rackhamh]

Whether or not a computer can be built cheaper is irrelevant to whether individuals in the target markets will be able to afford them.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[rackhamh]

I feel compelled to point out that one month's income in the US in the 1980s was still above poverty level, and left most people room to buy cars, music, cable TV, etc.

Let's not forget that we're talking about the 3rd world here. They worry about food, water and medication, not what they're getting for Christmas.

The point being that one month's rent for us in the 1980s was still a lower price point, because we had more disposable income.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[acariquara]

Looks like I have to out myself as a Brazilian, again.

$249 for a computer IS cheap around here also - at least, cheaper. We do get some nice deals (for a Brazilian market) like a full-featured Sempron-2400 for around $500 with Windows XP Home preinstalled. Toss the XP license and you may reach $450 - so $249 is STILL better.

When something (dvd players in the recent past, for example) reaches the $330 (BRL1000) price point, it becomes "buyable" for the middle class working families. Don't try to create a market for the empoverished, starving families around here. There isn't one.

Anyway, it COULD work, IF the product works well - a 10gb hard drive is still nice for word processing and some internet. No one will rip DVDs with this box, I suppose.

As for the processor, it is speedier than the one used in the e-voting process around here (AMD Geode 266 and previously Cyrix MediaGX 133), so no problem. Also there are lots of P100 or P133 in use around here, usually re-tasked to some less-glamourous functions after an upgrade. There are hospitals that use them, I've seen it, inside an ICU nonetheless. It was a pain in the ass to use them (some dipshiat installed Win98 and Office 2000 on the poor things - 32megs of RAM! Yay!) but whatever.

The main problems with this setup are, again, the lack of a NIC and an optical drive. Both are ridiculously cheap (less than $10 each). Dump WinCE, put a Knoppix version with OpenOffice and win every government contract around here (Brazilian .gov entities are in the process of moving toward FOSS). No kidding.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[raju1kabir]

Comparared to a $1000 or even entry level $500 machine it IS low cost. Whereas before in those countries computers could be afforded only by the wealthy and other institutions, they are now in the realm of affordability for the average citizen.

Where is this mythical place where right now you have to spend $1000 for a computer, but thanks to AMD you'll now only have to spend $350?

If it costs $1000 for a computer, that's because of one or both of the following:

• High import duties on technology

• Tiny market means there are just a handful of distributors, who, without competition, jack up the price on what they import

I don't see how this is going to address those key cost factors.

In China you can already buy a cheap PC for $200.

Re:Budget... yeah right

[Ibn al-Hazardous]

Let's not forget that not everyone in the third world is starving.

People have a tendency to make sure they get food, water, a place to sleep, and a place to crap. When they have that - they want to have fun too. When I was in India, I heard this strange sound from one of the poorer shackles in a shantytown - and as I looked again, I saw a satelite dish on the roof. Sure, they were really poor - but TV is a priority. Pretty soon, the Internet too is going to be the same sort of priority people outside the middle class.

That said, I imagine the previous poster has no idea how large the middle class of China and India is, compared to, say, the entire population of the US. (And a computer is already a priority for the middle class in these countries.)

Insightful my ass...

Who ordered this?

[frovingslosh]

For $249 it's not partiularly inexpensive, fast or useful. Although it might be had to find parts like a hard drive of only 10 gig any more (at least for any manufacturing project where you want to make a number of the product over a year or more of time and have a viable supply of identical parts for the run), I certainly can put together a more capable PC for $249 with off the shelf parts. I expect third world users who look to spend a month or more of income on a PC are more likely to want to buy as much computer as they can for their money rather than care much that it comes in a small plastic box (and runs slow, has limited storage, and includes an OS that the user paid something for but will have to ditch).

Re:Who ordered this?

[bcreane]

Yes. As a technology teacher at an elementary school with a modest budget, we're interested in the price point ... but not in the lack of binary compatability with EVERY piece of windoze software in the world. What SOFTWARE is available for this little guy? "Third world" not withstanding, if you can't run the most basic software, it won't fly.

Re:Who ordered this?

[imsabbel]

a) its 180 without the monitor
b) its cpu uses 1W. This thing could probably run on battery
c) its REALLY tine. about 1/5-1/10 (hard to guess correctly) the volume of a mini-itx case.

Can you do this with off-the-shelf parts, too?

(btw: before looking at the pics, i thought it sucked, too. But after looking, my first thought was "have to get one to use as router/firewall".)

Re:Who ordered this?

[grm_wnr]

And also, not everyone outside of slashdot builds their boxes out of off-the-shelf parts, or is even able to do so. It might be hard to grasp that concept, but that's the way it is.

That's not a PC...

[fbg111]

It's Xbox Next, in disguise.

Re:That's not a PC...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't mod me flamebait

The parent poster, while more tin-foil satire than anything else, got me thinking - why is it any geek at all would be clamoring over this piece of hardware? Seriously, why not simply buy a used Xbox (~$120 at GameStop) and load the Linux flavor of choice? It's got far more capable hardware, is significantly cheaper and can also play the latest games (if ever the need arises). Yes, I realize that this piece of hardware is not directed at geeks, but some of the postser on this article seem rather, uh, oblivious to this more-than-capable-and-significantly-cheaper computer readily available.

Just thinking.

I know we're supposed to hate MS here, but...

[aardwolf204]

Having the system loaded with a version of Windows CE may actually be a good thing. Not better than having a version of embedded linux, but better then XP. So far the only worm/virus/trojan I know of is a proof of concept trojan that was emailed to an AntiVirus vendor for Pocket PC, and it didn't actually do anything.

With the amount of spyware and other nasties out there preying on naive internet users it would be in everyone's best interest to keep these machines on an embedded platform. First a trojan/virus/worm would need to be created to take advantage of this platform which is new territory to the evil doers. Second, the user base is small and the machines are not very powerful so the advantage to writing a nasty for this platform are small. And third, even if the PC were to be infected it could be cleaned by a simple hard reset. If I ever were to totally hose my Pocket PC (and I'm not sure how I could do that) I could always hard reset the device and copy my data back from CF backup. Sure, you could do the same with linux setup with partition that contains an image that would overwrite the OS upon each boot but this is still a step in the right direction.

I'm not saying I would want one of these things, unless they scaled them down and sold them cheaper in which case they could make nice low cost cam/file/web/router/vpn/etc/servers, but I think I'll stick with VIA on that for now.

This would be great for my grandparents, especially if you could remotely administer them.

Shameless Plug: Williamsburg VA FireFox 1.0 Release Party

Re:I know we're supposed to hate MS here, but...

[StimpyPimp]

Sure, CE may be more secure than XP. But if they are trying to keep the unit cheap, having linux will help in avoiding the additional cost of software. CE is pretty cheap, $3 last time I checked, but thats not the point... I hate M$.

Re:I know we're supposed to hate MS here, but...

[Zebbers]

I firmly believe there are few CE trojans and exploits because there are few CEs connected to the internet with an IP.

If these become prevelant...the exploits will come. I have a hard time believing that MS for some reason has good security practices on ONE of their products but none of the others.

Re:I know we're supposed to hate MS here, but...

[rts008]

It's still using IE according to the article. Is IE running with CE more secure from bugs than IE on XP? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking, not to be a jerk. :)

Re:I know we're supposed to hate MS here, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

My pocket pc runs CE (ppc) and it doesnt run win32 code, only CE code. problem fixed (for now) but considering that these devices wont replace every win32 box over night its safe to say that they are as safe as linux or mac is to worm/virus/etc. and even if you go get a nasty and foobar your machine, reset to orginal state which takes seconds

My Prediction: It Won't Fly

[RAMMS EIN]

I don't think this kyte is going to fly. Here's why:

$ 185 is a lot of money. It's not worth it for many people. Especially if you can buy a 2200+ powered PC with modem and NIC, a larger hard drive, a standard form factor case and motherboard, etc. etc. for around the same price (I can buy them for 199 euros).

So, poor people won't spend their money on it, and slightly richer people will get a better deal at a slightly higher price. And you can get a pretty decent PDA for less.

Re:My Prediction: It Won't Fly

[Fancia]

199 euros is over 250$ USD - that's a bit more of a higher price, and high enough to psychologically seem much higher than 185$.

Personal Internet Server

[complexmath]

I've been looking for a small, cheap, low heat/power server for quite a while now. If AMD stuck a NIC in this thing and Apache ran on it I'd buy one in a second. And if someone discovered a way to get BSD or Linux to run on it I'd be even happier.

At those specs, $184 is pricey.

[Anonymous Coward]

I could do a ViaEpia 1Ghz with a standard ATX power, 128megs or RAM and a 20Gig hard drive for that price. That would include a 100mbps NIC which is more appropriate for the market they're targeting. Modems only make sense when there is an existing telecoms infrastructure. If these are for third world markets ethernet is far more preferable to trying to move inappropriate outdated inventory like modems. Most third world users go straight to cell phones and broadband. This product is targeted towards a convenient fiction of the third world to move dated goods and it is over priced.

and how much without winCE???

[advocate_one]

Price: 185$ without monitor - 249$ with monitor

cos if you rip out the cost of the OS and software, then AMD have managed to produce what Ballmers's ranting for... the $100 PC

AMD is really onto something here

[ShatteredDream]

At $185, even I as a student can afford to buy one of these just to play around with it. If AMD is smart, they will get a NIC for one of these and offer people the ability to run Linux on it. Think about that, Linux on one of these would make for a really good small business system. It's small, cheap and runs a free, but adequate OS. At $185 a unit, the thing could be replaced every 6 months by a business if need be.

But what AMD could really do to kick Microsoft's ass for not supporting the Athlon64 better would be to do three things with this. Offer for $200 a version of this that has: a NIC instead of a modem, a firewire port for an optical media drive and write a special distribution of linux that makes it easy for game designers to turn this into a console system. Imagine John Carmack being able to offer a boot CD with each new copy of Doom 3 that runs on one of these, without having to rewrite any code because the SDK for this box uses all the Linux tools he uses.

Re:AMD is really onto something here

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Imagine DOOM3 running on such a system. It's piss slow on a GeForce 5200 - it probably wouldn't even eun on this.

And DOOM3 is already being ported to a console, the XBOX. It's easy to port PC games to the XBOX because it runs Windows 2000.

Salvation Army

[ian rogers]

They have way better deals. 700Mhz or so with DVD drive, 128MB RAM, etc. for like $250.

Just what Steve Ballmer was looking for!

[ARRRLovin]

In future news, Steve Ballmer eats crow after finding out the price of hardware has no effect on the piracy of MS software.

I can already see the headlines:

[accelleron]

400% increase in multi-cultural trolling

Re:I can already see the headlines:

[Anonymous Coward]

4000% increase in 419 spamming

56k modem?

[Savves]

being small and self contained is cool and all, but who else thinks it'd do better with an ethernet port and/or a built-in wifi card? or maybe a pcmcia slot? i mean, come on, 56k dialup is almost obsolete! broadband is already too cheap it'd be stupid to use dialup... unless of course you're living in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a phoneline to connect you to the outside world...

TV out

[maddh]

if they wanted to reach a poorer population they should have a regular TV coax output along side the VGA.

Re:TV out

[Freddles]

I take your point: why not use existing TVs. But I assume they felt the cost of an RF modulator would push the price up prohibitively.

Re:TV out

[GreenCow]

They could sell a VGA to TV dongle with it. These are probably already popular in poorer countries actually.

Re:TV out

[owlstead]

Currently most software is pixel oriented (thus not really scalable). You would not want to have a crappy screen with that. A tuner module would be nice, but you can get those for USB if the need arises. I got a headache even using my MSX computer of old for too long at the time. A TV screen would mess up productivity suites (office) and internet browsing big time. And wasn't that what the computer was for?

Re:TV out

[Anonymous Coward]

Word in full screen 640x480 with 12pt font doesnt look bad on a tv screen, neither does a full screen browser at that resolution either, maybe with the help of some zooming, and some of that opera technology to make web pages render better on smaller screens. I'll agree, if VIA's ITX boards can have TV out so should these.

Re:FreeBSD? Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give the nationalism and platform bigotry a rest jock, it's tedious.

That's the first thing I thought too.

[pavon]

I know that Windows 98 will run fine on that system. Perhaps they were concerned with 98 being EOL'd soon and 2000 and XP were too heavyweight for 366 MHz CPU, 128 MB RAM. That would leave CE as the only real options.

I really like the size, shape and styling and price of that box. Make a version with a faster VIA Eden processor, bump the RAM to 512 MB, and replace the modem with a NIC, and I would be happy to pay $350 for that machine.

how can you top a 56k modem?

[Anonymous Coward]

unless maybe you could figure out a way to cram an 8-track audio tape or betamax video player into the thing. but those things might cause it to overheat, which would kill the hamster, and there goes your power supply...

Already available?

[Stephen Samuel]

My neighbourhood computer store sells pretty much such a machine (note that prices are in Canadian Dollars -> ~ $.80US/$1.00CAD). An AMD 2700 with 256MB ram, 40GB drive and CDROM for $289CAD -> $230US.It has an onboard 10/100 ethernet rather than a modem. Add Linux and a used monitor, and you're Rocking.

I presume that you could find something similar in the US.

Re:Already available?

[woztheproblem]

Does it come with a copy of Windows?

Re:Already available?

[arose]

Does WinCE run regular windows apps?

Re:Already available?

[burns210]

Which one will fit in your pocket or small bag, for use when you need a server or portable desktop on the go?

Re:Already available?

[Stephen Samuel]

Does it come with a copy of Windows?

I hope not! I wouldn't want to waste my money like that. -- and as someone else pointed out, WinCE is designed to reject some regular Windows Apps.

As for size -- no, it's a regular floortop box (with lots of dead air). It'd be easy enough to bring it down to something about a third the size -- and even smaller if you started paying attention to airflow.

Re:Already available?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a nice deal.. I'm gonna look for something similar in Vancouver.

One big difference though... the size of the box. My initial reaction to the AMD machine was - okay.. nothing special... but if its in a package the size of a kleenex box, now we're talking about notebook size parts - more $$. But it's easier to distribute, and easier for people with smaller spaces to use.

Re:Already available?

[Pxtl]

And if it does, could this thing be reformatted into some sort of 8-inch laptop? If so, that would be the ultimate portable retro gaming toy - just stick to StarCraft and Quake 2. Who needs a PSP?

Re:Already available?

[ansible]

No, the desktop solution won't fit in your bag.

But the PIC doesn't have built-in Ethernet, either. Sure, you can get a USB Ethernet adapter, but it is one more thing to carry around. An Ethernet chip, balun and connector cost in the neighborhood of $2 USD or less to manufacture, so they could have included it, or made a 2nd model which did for about the same price.

Other things to pay attention to include if it needs a wall wart (a.k.a. AC power adapter). Prolly does, so you kit size just increased again.

They are aiming the device for poor, rural areas, like China outside cities. Many of these places don't have land lines, so they might as well have left off the modem. Maybe put in a PCMCIA slot so that you could use it for Ethernet, modem, or GSM/GPRS modem card.

Decent try by AMD though. If this version sells, someone will do it much better.

Re:Already available?

[IoN_PuLse]

That is NOT an AMD Athlon XP 2700+ in there, those are from the motherboard model names. In reality, the 2700+ has an Athlon 2200+ CPU on it. I would check in with that company too, because those boards are discontinued. (I work for a small Canadian PC shop, we sold lots of that series of board + cpu combos at one time, and it was disco'd around a month ago. )

Re:Already available?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. I've tried.

WinCE is a stripped down version of windows. A useless piece of shit. For embedded stuff you would
be better with win XP or NT4 embedded if you want
to stay stucked with winblows. It will cost you
near $100 to $200 for that.

Re:Already available?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in that cool form factor though.

Re:Already available?

[burns210]

I agree, it is a decent try for an initial release.

I think a version 02 would have an ethernet port or an ethernet adaptor plus a wireless nice/PCMCIA port for that use.

The more connected(and remain cheap) it can get, the better it will be for these devices to be sold to rural areas..

Now just imagine for a moment.

Get a handful of these devices with builtin 802.11B(cheap and well used). Put (ideally) a custom, stripped down, Ubuntu linux on their. Very basic, almost Kiosk mode, limiting you to your user folder only... Really hide the technology for those who don't know (ma and pa's of the world)... Now, implement a zeroconf implementation a la Apple's rendezvous. Now, if you have these devices within a couple hundred feet of eachother (read:small village) you can now automatically network them just by turning them on!

This leverages the ability to share files and communicate with the outside world. Imagine if one of these had a collection of e-books or teaching software, now anyone can network wireless to access it and have a (short)distance learning school setup.

Too much?

Re:Already available?

[Stephen Samuel]

It would be cheaper to add ethernet capability than to add a pcmcia slot and then need to include the card... all of that added hardware (and testing) would be way more expensive than an ethnet chip and connector.

In any case, they'd be lucky if the whole box gives them a $40 profit margin, so every little bit counts. Since they're selling it into third world markets that don't already have machines, I expect that they believe that most of them won't have ethernet connectivity (and those that do can probably afford an ethernet/usb addapter -- not to mention a more powerful box).

Much of the 3rd world has a massive income disparity. those that have any money at all tend to have lots. $2 may not seem like a lot to us, but it's a few meals for some of the people being targeted by this product.

Re:Already available?

[Stephen Samuel]

Yes. I think he recntly upgraded the system.. It may not have made it to the website yet.

Already Been Done

[yeremein]

There are photos of a much cooler lego-box computer here.

advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

the advantages here are also that it is small and fanless. a good kiosk PC. if I could lock it down so that I could give it to my grandparents as an always-on quiet web browser (that can also play some music and watch the occasional video), it would be great.

and, yes, it perplexes me why they would not sell this with linux preinstalled, and not also in the U.S. it also perplexes me why they did not add the $30 to make it an 80GB hard drive. that way, it could be a real computer.

fortunately, AMD is only spec provider. maybe someone will put this all together---increase HD drive size, put linux on a RO partition instead of windows (add openoffice), and call it a thin (low maintenance) client for $200... I would buy a couple. /iaw

Technical thoughts...

[nweaver]

I've always thought that the super-cub of computers is what would sell in the 3rd world.

However, a couple of limitations I think may hurt this overall:

A: No ethernet. Ethernet has become this general purpose network glue, and there are a lot of places (eg, the Indian networks being installed) where the village will end up having ethernet locally and then some wireless bridge to the outside world. Ethernet may very well become more preferable to POTS in these installations.

B: Windows based. Even CE means Microsoft is getting its Windows Tax. Linux or BSD don't have such problems. And CE, unlike the main windows, doesn't have a good app selection for more heavyweight tasks.

Re:Technical thoughts...

[scottking]

you're right about the ethernet thing, i was surprised it was left off the list.

however, i don't think windows ce is as big an issue as you think. this machine is not for "heavyweight" tasks, it's for rock bottom functionality (which is what most machines end up used for anyway, let's face it).

i like linux and bsd as much as the next guy, but they are simply not ready for the desktop... even the mini-desktop.

their day will come, but now is not the time to force linux on the masses. doing so might end up making a foundation for an os as lousy as windows in the future.

Put it in a laptop form factor

[tji]

I've been looking for a cheap web terminal type device for my parents. I've set them up with a good PC, but I think they would like (and actually use) a laptop. But, laptops are overkill both in terms of price and functionality.

I got a Compaq Aero 8000 a few years ago. It seemed to be the perfect fit.. laptop form factor, flash based - instant on, good sized LCD display and keyboard, built-in PCMCIA and CompactFlash slots.. But, the Windows CE software sucked badly enough to make the device painful to use.

The same form factor - maybe upping the resolution to 1024x768, with a decently responsive OS, and a good WWW browser, would be all the laptop most people would need. If it ran an open OS, like Linux, there would be plenty of software available for it (even if the manufacturer abandoned it, like Compaq did with the Aero 8000, leaving users with an extremely outdated version of IE for a browser).

No

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Can Hardware be considered a killer application for Sofware? Anywhoo, Network computers have been tried before they've always failed. No reason to believe this will be any different. Besides, this has a 10 gb hard drive. I really wouldn't want to see something like this without a HD or some sort of local storage, and if you ever experienced it, you wouldn't either. It never hurts to try something before declairing it the next big thing.

Acronym Madness

[Anonymous Coward]

PIC has been used. MANY times. In many fields, sometimes multiple times within one field. For instance:
PIC = Programmable Integrated Circuit (ie. Microchip PIC).
PIC = Programmable Interrupt Controller.
PIC = Position Independant Code. ... I'm always running into new Acroynms using PIC, I just never btoher to remember them. It's silly.

Re:Acronym Madness

[Anonymous Coward]

acronym finder:
Picture
Predesignated Interexchange Carrier (telephony)
Primary Interexchange Carrier (telephone long distance carrier)
Pacific Islanders in Communications
Pacific Islands Church (New Zealand)
Pacific Islands Club
Pakistan Insurance Corporation
Palminfocenter (website)
Pangarungan Islam College
Parallel Interference Cancellation
Parent Indicator Code
Particle-In-Cell (micropulsion systems on-a-chip)
Particulate Inorganic Carbon
Partners in Crime
Patient Identification Code
Patrol In Council (Scouts Canada)
Peripheral Interface Controller
Peripheral Intravenous Catheter (medical)
Person In ChargePIC
Personal Identification Code
Personal Information Carrier
Personal Information Communicator
Personal Injury Coverage (insurance)
Personal Interactive Communicator (Motorola)
Personnel Investigations Center
Pharmaceutical Inspection Convention
Photo Imaging Council (UK)
Photographic Interpretation Center
Photonic Integrated Circuit
Physical Interface Card (Juniper Networks, Inc.)
Picatinny Innovation Center
Piccolo
Pilot In Command (aviation)
Pitch-In Canada (anti-litter group)
Plastic Ignitor Cord
Plastic Insulated Cable
Plume Impingement Contamination
Pocket Ion Chamber (device that measures radiation dose accumulated at a nuclear power plant)
Point(s) in CallsPIC
Poison Information Centre
Polyethylene Insulated Cable
Polyisocyanurate (rigid foam contruction material)
Polymer-Impregnated Concrete
Port Interface Card
Portable Intensive Care (system; medical equipment)
Position Independent Code
Post-beamformer Interference Canceller
Potential Impact Circle (natural gas pipeline)
Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research
Powdered Iron Core (inductor; electronics)
Preliminary Interface Certification
Presidential Inaugural Committee
Pressure Indicator Controller
Presubscribed Interexchange Carrier
Primary Interchange Carrier
Primary Interlata Carrier
Prior Informed Consent
Prior Informed Consent (Rotterdam Convention on Trade in Hazardous Chemicals)
Priority Interrupt ControllerPIC
Private in Charge
Private Industry Council
Processor Input Channel
Processor Interface Control
Product Identification Code
Product Integrity Center (Cutler-Hammer, Inc.)
Product Introduction Center
Production & Inventory Control
Products of Incomplete Combustion
Program Information Center (Navy)
Program Integration Challenge
Programmable Integrated Circuit
Programmable Interrupt Controller
Programmers Investment Corporation
Progressive Image Coding
Progressive Insurance Company
Prolonged Illness Condition (health care)
Public Interest Center
Purpose Identification Code

Fire Fox?

[Mooga]

Is it safe to say that you can run FireFox and other 3rd party browsers and software on it?

Comparison..

[Anonymous Coward]

You pay $179 for a system that's 366MHz, 10GB hd, no optical drives, and a modem... and Windows CE (no guarantee for Linux, although I'm sure it's possible). Or you can pay $149 for an Xbox-733MHz, DVD drive, ethernet... and the ability to easily run Linux from an exploit. I take the Xbox, please.

Been there, done that

[Swamii]

Larry Ellison's New Internet Computer. Complete failure. Need we say more?

Re:Been there, done that

[CTho9305]

From TFA:
Initially, the PC will be sold in India, Russia, China, Mexico and Brazil.

It's a different target market.

Poor Intel...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems the honeymoon is over. Oh well, it was probably good to be MS's woman for at least awhile.

mod parent insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

funny, i took your first two sentences as your point and ignored the blather about windoze. why not just add a head-mounted display instead of a monitor? can't tell by the pictures or the rest of TFA, but if the PS is external, then batteries are just another custom mod you can easily provide. solar, anyone? how about alternate input devices? strap it to a bike with chording keyboards built into the handlebars, and now you're cooking with gas...

The real question...

[R.Mo_Robert]

The real question ... is can you install Firefox and use it instead of Internet Explorer?

Engineering without marketing

[Usagi_yo]

This is what happens when the Engineering process doesn't include the markteting process.

Something neat, with some cool features but alas, relativly useless -- not to mention a bit dated.

Furthermore

[einhverfr]

If they are trying to make an inexpensive computer to sell around the world, what is wrong with the simputer?

Good Espionage Device?

[Greyfox]

I just want a little device that I can plug into an ethernet and then hide under a desk somewhere, quietly sniffing the network and occasionally uploading UserIDs, passwords and other personal information to a website of my choosing. Ideally it could determine the proxies to go through by inspecting network traffic, as well. If it had both an ethernet connector AND a wireless card, you'd be able to connect to it from right off site too, no messy sending to a hard-coded web page that may or may not still be there...

Oh yeah, and a team of ninjas who can plant them in various networks that need spying on.

What About Espresso/Cappuchino PCs?

[ewhac]

What makes this offering from AMD qualitatively better than these things? The Cappucinos have a real Pentium in them, whereas this AMD thing uses a Geode, which is just awful.

Schwab

Re:What About Espresso/Cappuchino PCs?

[cowsandmilk]

its cheaper ???? to get comparable prices from the cappuccinos, you have to buy a system without a cpu, which the last time i checked is worse than a geode. Plus no memory and no hard drive. Really, I think the barebone cappuccino might run slightly slower

Re:What About Espresso/Cappuchino PCs?

[kalidasa]

This machine (the PIC) isn't intended for the US consumer market, but for Russia, Mexico, etc. So price is an important issue.

cast off pc's and 14" monitors

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't understand why, If there is a demand for this kind of stuff, they don't ship a standard container of old cast off P-II and 14" monitors over to the third world and have the cheap labor over there piece the pc's togeter?

I'm writing this on a $60 P-II w/ 128M, a free, cast-off 17" monitor, and a (loss-leader) $100 250 g hard drive, running Debian installed Knoppix.

I think I paid too much for the P-II

(plus a $70 a month DSL line)

There is free junk everywhere

Re:cast off pc's and 14" monitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Err, Debian installed via Knoppix, about the easiest way to install any distro.

Re:cast off pc's and 14" monitors

[Anonymous Coward]

...about the easiest way, of any, to install a distro.

Man, I need some sleep!

This has no market

[Tony Hoyle]

It's aimed at 'developing' markets? What happened to the days when companies actually did some market research before releasing a product?

1. $249 is *not* cheap in the developing world - in fact it can easily be more than a months salary (in some countries several months - I knew a guy who worked in Bosnia for a time... he used his salary to pay 8 people to do his work for him and still had enough left over for a nice house).
2. Dialup? Most of these countries are hugely into mobile technology now, where the setup cost is low (no land lines to dig). Where connectivity does exist it is through local cyber-cafe's - the home PC just isn't as common, or required when you have better things to do, like keeping food on the table.
3. Guess what happens to the old PCs you think are 'slow'? A lot of them are happily chugging away running Win95 or Win3.1 (linux is also becoming more popular, but is still a minority) in developing countries, for a few dollars a pop or even free.

Re:This has no market

[Loren_Burlingame]

whenever I buy a new computer it usually costs me over a month's salary.

If you want a computer you have to pay for it. You may as well complain about how expensive cars are too since they will most likely cost way more than a computer, even in a developing country.

looks like would be perfect

[Loren_Burlingame]

for the car. I was thinking about building a mini pc but this would be a nice alternative.

WinCE is cheap ($$$)

[WoTG]

I highly doubt that this has anything to do with security. It's all about price, and MS making sure that just in case these little things take off, Linux won't on them.

The cheapest WinXP for OEM's like Dell is probably ~$50 (hand waving). A friend of mine who develops POS software once mentioned that they were looking at WinCE licenses. They were only a few bucks per device. Yes, OSS would be "cheaper", but WinCE isn't particularly expensive.

As far as "slow", these newer Geode processors now run on the good ol'Athlon core (I think). For 'net and office apps, 366MHz is plenty.

Personally, I'd find a way to drop the hard drive off the parts list - that's probably the most expensive and failure prone part of this thing. You could probably squeeze WinCE plus a Works suite into 256MB flash. Use small thumb drives for work files.

Re:WinCE is cheap ($$$)

[Anonymous Coward]

> As far as "slow", these newer Geode processors now run on the good ol'Athlon core (I think).

That is incorrect. It is still the cyrix core.

Re:WinCE is cheap ($$$)

[madstork2000]

I agree with this, but I doubt it is to keep linux "off" the boxes. Linux can already run on just about anything. The reason I am guessing is to keep "Modern" Windows OS's off the suckers. There is no-way the bloated WinXP could run with a 350Mhz and 128MB RAM. (I imagine Linux +KDE/GNOME would struggle too, but wmaker or xfce would likely be fine).

By supporting this low end HW MS can effectively be free to sell cheap hardware their without worrying about users stealing their "good stuff" since it obviously won't be able to run. On top of that if they are able to sell limited CE versions of software to the that market, they do not have to worry as much about large scale pirating of selling cheap versions back to the western market.

Since MS already faces big problems with piracy, they simply would not want another inexpensive box that could run all their latest apps in the hands of millions of people who are not likely to ever buy anything.

Here's how I see it breaking down. The low-end hardware and CE makes it affordable for the HW company (AMD) in this case to buy the software from MS. So MS makes $$ of the initial sale. Since the cost of the software is factored into the selling price, AMD can still make a profit.

The people who lose out in this scenerio are the poor folks who buy this with 2nd rate Windows software. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Linux to shine, because if it were pre-loaded, it could have everything the people would need.

The target market also does not have to worry about the cost of switching, nor do they have to worry about compatibility with others. They are essentially starting with a blank slate.

I am guessing that MS probably is more involved than just supplying a half-ass OS. If this succeeds it gets them in at the ground floor in large emerging markets with less threat of piracy of their high margin apps.

-MS2k

Re:WinCE is cheap ($$$)

[CTho9305]

There are many different lines of Geodes. The GX models are not related to Athlons. The NX models are based directly on the Thoroughbred Athlon core.

Re:WinCE is cheap ($$$)

[WECSooperGenius]

Actually this Geode doesn't appear to be the same as the Cyrix core. For one thing the GX-1 (Cyrix) core is 6-stage, and the GX (nee GX-2) is 8-stage. Compare: GX vs. GX-1

bahahaha

[atari2600]

"The machine, about the size of a Kleenex box, contains a 10-GB hard drive, 128 MB of memory and a 56k modem. The computer runs a version of Microsoft Windows CE that includes some features of the Windows XP software for the PC. The software suite also includes the Internet Explorer for cruising the Web...

Haha - nice one fellas - that just made me laugh so hard :)

Audrey?

[Doc Ruby]

We're still waiting for a LinuxBIOS to make a touchscreen 3Com Audrey worth owning - and those cost $80 in the aftermarket.

Failed a Few Times

[ackthpt]

Didn't the consumer market decide that it didn't want this type of thing before? What was that thing that Be INC made again? (besides failure)

There have been a number of these things over the past several years. Usually self contained, no user serviceable software, portable, sorta... expensive... yes... what the world really needs? Maybe yes, maybe no.

That it comes armed with Infection Exposure is a bit of a strike against it. Some CEO types will think that's all fine, but those of us who wouln't touch it with a ten furlong pole would rather hack it and install something else. I wonder how firm the software is that comes on the device.

I think a PDA will smoke this thing for the money anyway.

I think AMD is about to re-visit Failureland -- the land where stupid ideas live short lives and leave some consumers stranded.

What of Tivo, and x-box modding?

[Arakonfap]

I agree that the need may have been exagerated, but I think the idea was a little before it's time.

I personally though it was neat, but couldn't find a use for it. There's a lot of use now though for Tivo's, which even have functionality for browsing photo's on a network now. I've a friend who has an x-box modded to play back home movie avi's, DVD archiving, and MP3's and photos. It's all pretty neat and useful. I've seen that MythTV even has a video-conferencing add-on available now, which is pretty cool.

Just a matter of -need- and -use- though. A sit-down computer is much better for web browsing and email. TV's are great for shared use though. Just that most people don't have a need to share the things the set-top boxes are good at. Most people arn't even aware of the stuff that could be useful when the computer is in use (RSS feeds, etc).

Re:What of Tivo, and x-box modding?

[tepples]

Xbox modding is illegal in the United States of America (where Slashdot is hosted) and in the United Kingdom, and Tivo will soon be illegal in the USA if the sheeple don't revolt against the incumbent motion picture studios who control American mass communication.

Re:First Post?

[arose]

They need a "Pack 52".

Free Internet as well

[badpenguin]

I honestly feel that they should team up with NetZero, or some other "free" internet service provider. That way, they could buy the box, take it home, plug it into the wall, and use it. (and not worry about monthly cost, and signups and stuff). Becasue if you have trouble buying a computer, chances are Bills arnt you strong point eather. Think about it.

Invalid Character Input isn't funny anymore.

[poohsuntzu]

Seriously, it's nothing more than a karma whore.

Re:Invalid Character Input isn't funny anymore.

[karlandtanya]

It's PARODY (that's humor, boys). And rather well done, as web comics go, IMO.

Don't mod the comment "funny". If you have to explain the joke, it's NOT funny.

Why Windows and not Linux?

[julie-h]

Intel and Microsoft is loyal to each other, but my understanding is that AMD isn't in Microsoft's favorite list.

So why would AMD ship it with Windows, and pay a high license fee when they can get it from free with Linux?

Re:Why Windows and not Linux?

[timmyf2371]

Believe it or not, when it comes to business decisions, some companies leave "politics" to one side and choose the best tool for the job.

Heard of Intel Prescott Survival Kit? *Click Here*

[danalien]

Well, one follows the url down the interphätt, like a gullible 'alice' as one can be. And one stumbles upon:

• Heard of Intel Prescott Survival Kit?
• *Click Here*

and one ponders upon of why one hasn't seen their " Prescott cooling? - See the latest commercial? "

Re:The only thing missing is...my money

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya it has USB and it's probably not too hard to get or make drivers for CE (wireless networking is a must have). Plus, the .NET framework for CE is impressive. It's maybe time for me to put some apps on Handango. The PDA chip and design is good because of instant on and no cooling. Too expensive though. $99 or $129 or maybe even $149 and they would be slashdotted and sell all they could make and we would all be running to sveasoft for new firmware. The time may be right for an internet appliance. Leave it to AMD to make all of the other big jokers look foolish with a well though out and well timed offereing. I could use this today for some friends who need an internet/email/im/x/vnc/rdp station away from their family PC.

this reminds me

[cinnamon colbert]

of an old story from a bygone era, when ibm tried to sell a home, multikilobuck version of the super hot at pc, and as an inducement, included cooking software with - hold on to your hats - 24 recipies. Wow ! several hundred bucks for a dumb terminal with some storage ? sounds very $$ and complicated. 50 bucks, w/' 802.11g and hook it to yr tv for display, now yr talking.

This is similar to Soekris net4801

[cpghost]

This is similar to the Soekris net4801, which also uses a GEODE CPU. I'm using one of those boxes @home as an ADSL router, thttpd, postfix, cyrus/imap server, running FreeBSD 5.3-RC using a 2.5" laptop hdd. Works like a charm! And uses less than 10 watt power too.

Not ridiculously cheap.

[argent]

Here's what I can find just getting off-the-shelf parts. I'm sure AMD can beat my prices:

http://store.mini-box.com/ituner/viaep50ed53f.ht ml -- $98
http://www.memoryx.net/xar128.html -- $25
http://store.yahoo.com/justdeals/wedi20idehad .html -- $32

The cheapest mini-ITX case I can find is $60, but I doubt AMD is paying more than ten bucks for those cases and power supplies in bulk. So with a bit of carving and epoxy I can build a better system for about the same price... albeit without their Windows CE OS image or the modem... but this one has TV out (saving on the cost of a monitor) and ethernet (for community LAN, say). And a Linux-based platform would work pretty well.

You could also put a PCI WiFi card in the single PCI slot for under $20. Or add a modem, likewise. And I believe this would be a significantly more powerful system.

Firewall? you don't get no stinkin' firewall!

[frovingslosh]

But after looking, my first thought was "have to get one to use as router/firewall"

No, I can't build it as tiny with off-the-shelf parts. But that's hardly the point, since tiny but crippled just doesn't cut it. As to your thought of getting one to use as a firewall, well, lets just say you might give it a bit more thought. The damn thing has a 56k modem, but apparently no ethernet port. And a decent firewall needs (at least) two ethernet ports; but this thing has no expansion capability. Hope you don't plan on using USB to Ethernet kluges for the connections; they would not only be expensive, but since the spec's only mention USB I'm guessing this is USB 1.1 and not even USB2. So no good for a tiny dedicated device like a firewall, and doesn't compete well with larger computers you can build up from stock parts.

Sure, there are always a small number of dedicated applications that one can use a slow, low power computer for. But there are many other choices available for such projects. This thing wasn't intended to be that, and doesn't compete well in that market. So let's take it for what it claims to be and evaluate it based on that; a very low end PC replacement with a brain dead OS (that in the end the user pays for). It just doesn't stack up against what else is available.

Re:Camack

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya right, my video card to play DOOM3 cost more than all of the rest of my PC. Next...

Plasma Screens Add-On

[StCredZero]

WebTV failed because TVs of the day didn't heve the resolution for web surfing. But what about recent HDTV Plasma TVs?

What about as a $250 add-on to Plasma Screen TVs? Make an optional module that you can plug into a compartment on the back. This could be very tiny, with an iPod sized drive, use of the TV's power supply, and a low power Via processor, this could be very cheap, quiet, and unobtrusive. And with Plasma HDTVs costing $2000+, this could be a very attractive option indeed.

Iwannit! hack Hack HACK!

[Anonymous Coward]

Gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmee gimmee!

Good idea, lousy pricing

[davidwr]

An "Internet Appliance" should be just that, an appliance. Boot from read-only media, no virus worries. CPU, video, keyboard/mouse, and phone, network, and/or wireless connection.

MAYBE with a couple USB connections for a printer and disk drive.

Price: Under $100 for USA model without video, under $80 in bulk for schools and such, under $50 for a slower model for overseas or very poor customers.

Performance:
Has to be fast enough to run a web browser and Java. Almost anything built in the late 1990s qualifies.

I can't beleive they want an extra $65 for a 15 inch monitor. That's laughable. For low-end customers, an 800x600x70hz video system is all you really need at the very low end. If they are charging more than $30 for video, their nuts. Real third-world distributors can buy used monitors in bulk for a lot less than $30, bringing the price even lower.

AMD, if you are reading this, good idea, lousy value.

PS:
I'm waiting for someone to mod a Linksys or similar open-source router so it, plus an old 486-as-an-X-station, becomes a "network appliance." Of course, that won't have a modem.

Re:Good idea, lousy pricing

[toddestan]

I can't beleive they want an extra $65 for a 15 inch monitor. That's laughable.

I don't think $65 for a new 15" monitor is unreasonable. Monitors are somewhat big and complicated devices, they can't manufacture them for free, you know. Just because you can get as many used 15" monitors as you need by diving in dumpsters doesn't mean they are charging too much.

Emma was designed to run LINUX at first!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Fortune magazine (Oct issue), the first version of the device (dev codename Emma) was running Linux. Then Bill Gates got ahold of it and liked it very much. He started playing with it for an hour trying to break it. Since he couldn't, he negotiate with AMD to sell them a cheap Windows version specially made for the device. (So blame it on the stupid retard Gates!)

I guess it can be easily modded back to run Linux or any other reliable OS.

Try a Pepper Pad

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a Pepper Pad? Small form factor, instant on, good-sized LCD and keyboard, built in 802.11+bluetooth.

Might even be available soon (they say Jan 2005)

that's more like it

[zogger]

I like the size, it is what I was thinking would be nice, a PDA that was also a desktop. Easy to plug in an AC adapter, keyboard and regular monitor, etc. a convertible. Laptops do it, but are expensive and big to carry, if you want portable, you want really portable, but then at home, you want it easy to convert to a real desktop. So instead of three gizmos, you only need *one* gizmo.

This is much closer to that, nice small form factor, all it needs is it's own screen and batts.

Re:that's more like it

[shoolz]

You took the words out of my mouth. I think arguing that you can build a better computer cheaper is obvious and is missing the point.

What caught my eye was how small it is. I'm looking at their picture, and looking down at my desk... well i'll be darned if that thing isn't about the size of my Dell Axim X5 (in case w/ wireless CF card)!

I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of these has a fold-up screen + stylus/typepad which would make it a very useful unit. It would be a desktop / laptop / pda all in one.

Re:that's more like it

[zogger]

for real, I think they would sell a bunch, as long as it had "decent enough" power. I know you wouldn't be 3-d gaming on it or anything, but for regular home joe surfer and the occassional mobile foray, it would be dandy. And if it came in at say 2/3rds of an entry level laptop,with all the function, that might hit the sweet spot for a lot of people. Granted, a niche product, but it might sell. Heck, they are getting 400$ for just a music player with the ipod! for that kinda loot, I want some computer action to it! People want all the function of a desktop, but truly be portable. You get a laptop and it's still really neither. Most of the time the combo device would be functioning as your desktop anyway, either at home or if you take it to work, so you wouldn't notice it, the same monitor and keyboard you got now. And if you need to load something, either the network or an exterior USB optical drive, and for your printer, etc, etc.

Now I want to build one.... hmmmm junk parts box....

This is so going to fail.

[TheNarrator]

Unless it's a cell phone and fits in one's pocket this is going to fail. People would much rather go to an Internet cafe to use a computer for $2/hour in the developing world than have some half assed buggy system with all kinds of subtle incompatibilities running on a noisy phone line.

This not a new idea.

[computechnica]

List of previous attempts:
MSN WebTV
AOL TV
Virgin Webplayer
ThinkNIC
3COM Audrey
A dozen more

Try DietPC

..... Too expensive

[ihavnoid]

For the most of the poor countries, I think they simply would use used (old) PCs which has hardware something like ancient P4 celerons or Durons, with pirated copies of all sorts of software. That would cost something around $150(or less), with runs (almost) every software they would like, much cheaper, higher performance.

With a price tag like $189, It's impossible to compete with 'free (beer) software'. Who in China buys (legal copies of) Windows?

Re:..... Too expensive

[raju1kabir]

For the most of the poor countries, I think they simply would use used (old) PCs which has hardware something like ancient P4 celerons or Durons, with pirated copies of all sorts of software. That would cost something around $150(or less), with runs (almost) every software they would like, much cheaper, higher performance. With a price tag like $189, It's impossible to compete with 'free (beer) software'. Who in China buys (legal copies of) Windows?

I think you're on to something. Perhaps Microsoft's participation in this is an attempt to finally capture at least some revenue from these piracy-intensive markets.

NIC? Whats wrong with all of you

[GrassMunk]

NIC? Seriously you people are your nic's. What this thing really needs is an embedded wireless card to eliminate all the wires. Last thing i want to do is go hunting under a desk ( or worse go hunting for a drop and network cable ) when you could just plug it in, slap USB mouse/keyboard and monitor and bedone. And besides, in 3rd world, dialup and wireless are the most prevalent.

Re:NIC? Whats wrong with all of you

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how much it'd cost to integrate GSM voice and data? Since many countries have GSM networks, this could be turned into a wireless data terminal quite easily. Just pop in a SIM card, and you're ready to go. Maybe even add a phone jack that a standard landline handset can be plugged into, and you have a voice phone as well. The advanrage with this unit over just connecting a regular cell phone is that, since this unit is basically stationary, you could more easily connect a large external antenna, allowing for better reception and clearer voice and data calls.

Missing the market

[NoneExpected]

Close but no cigar.
I have been on the look out for:

A industrial/school/company PC, with:
NO CDROM,
NO DVD,
No floppy,
128M ram,
very small Hard drive, 10 gig would do,
couple of USBs would be nice,
browser,
built in wireless,
video port,
keyboard port,
mouse port.
And that's it.

I don't care what OS, just as long the brower can do javascript.

I want a really thin client, for $150, less monitor. If I want it, others do too!

Re:Missing the market

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like what you want is a dumb terminal. Of course, if you want lots of these terminals, then you have to buy the mainframe too, and buy an OS that will work that way. (i.e. NOT MS)

Why this will fly..

[EinarH]

Many negative folks here, just as everyone was negative when the PC arrived.

Anyway, this will sell because:
The $249 price mentioned in the article is prob. the western price. I would guess this thingy is made dirt cheap and they will start selling it slighly below that and then move downwards. As production pics up they can sell it for $199 then $149 then $99 then $49..
Remember that in the start the IBM PCs cost $10000.

Some economic folks I have talked to rant allot about all these new teories. Usually they are crap but latly they have been talking about this econ-guru from India and his "corporations should sell MANY cheap things to the poor and earn more money than selling a few expensive gadgeds to the rich"-teory. Fascinating stuff.

Some minor itches though:
-Modem? wtf? Where is the ethernet adapter or wifi card that you can but instead/option?
-Where is the small CD or CD-RW or DVD unit in the same design that you buy togheter or later as an addon? (Then you can stack them on top of each other. Neat. I want the credit if you use that idea later though.)

"Very small" Word documents?

[tepples]

Since when does an app on the scale of Microsoft Office produce "very small documents"? The file format, for one thing, will need a serious rethinking.

FreeBSD??

[Piranhaa]

Why would they ask if it would run FreeBSD? We all know NetBSD is the one bsd with their goal for portages. Not a biggie, just thought I'd point that out!

Marketing.

[gessleX]

Messenger, IE, CE, small simple. Its Virus-A-Go-Go!

Or not.

[ZxCv]

There is no-way the bloated WinXP could run with a 350Mhz and 128MB RAM.

Tell that to my last Sony laptop, a Pentium II 333 with 128mb ram that ran WinXP just fine. Of course I wouldn't have wanted to use it for games or any large compiles, but it did email, web, im, music, and (light) development perfectly well under XP.

Re:Or not.

[schematix]

this is just a test

in other news

[Mordes]

steve balmer most remembered for his all crow diet died today when something got stuck in his craw.

Re:excellent! ... SIZE!!

[catch23]

Did you see how large the PIC thing is? It's so small, it looks like a monitor dongle at most...

Size matters!

Getting Closer to a Toaster...

[Pathway]

I love computers. I love to work on them, I love to play with them. I love to upgrade them... but not everybody is like me.

I once asked a guy who was especialy reluctant to get a computer the "why not" question. Why not get a computer?

His reply: "Eventualy, they'll be like toasters. All toasters do the same thing: Make Toast. Some do it better than others. And when my toaster breaks, I just throw it away and get another one. When Computers aren like Toasters, I'll get one."

While I was a bit discurraged about his disposal habits, he did make a few good points. A) Old Computers can do the same thing new computers can do: Surf the web, read email, write documents... It's just that some do it better than others. B) The Computer must be easy like a Toaster, at least for this kind of user. Read Email? Press a button. Bring up a website? Press another button. C) They must be inexpensive enough for the common man. I doubt computers will ever come down to the price of a Toaster, but I could see one hit $200, or even $100 some day.

But the most interesting thing about the Computer Toaster: They must be easy to operate. That's a Software Issue, not a hardware design.

Some day, it'll happen anyways. AMD has made it a bit closer to reality, but it's not here yet... not by a long shot.

--Pathway

Re:Getting Closer to a Toaster...

[40000]

The 'toaster' should be built into a broadband modem/firewall/router. Or it should be part of a DVD player.
Just plug your monitor/TV, keyboard and mouse into this and use the internet.
Email and HTML doesn't change that often so there shouldn't be any need for a user to install software themselves.
Instant Messaging might be a problem because the protocols sometimes change. A Java client like ICQ's would solve this problem.

The problem with PNAC

[konmaskisin]

The problem with tje Project For a New American Century is not that that they have nukes, CIA dirty trickters, torturers, chemical weapons and don't give a shit who they kill in order to preserve their privileged way of life (lots of other groups of deranged whackos have come together in similar ways over the last 500 years or so).

The main problem with PANC is that ever last one of the signatories is INCREDIBLE FUCKING STUPID.

They quite simply don't understand the way the world works and don't pay attention to history or human nature.

Oops ... I forgot, Francis Fukupayama (one of the signatories) already proclaimed the end of history so I guess there's no need - we are truly now in a "new reality".

Blech what utter idiots. Luckily they are mere dust in the winds of time - which I hope blows real hard in their direction.

Here's why the PIC is better.

[Combuchan]

Warning: I do have a slight AMD bias, as they're in my machine now. But I'm posting anyway.

AMD, and I'm just supposing here, is a bigger customer than caseoutlet.com. Volume buying is advantageous in buying PC components for three reasons: Price, brand, and component quality are now negotiable. Go to https://my.seagate.com/guest to see an example of volume pricing/corporate partnerships in action. Being able to take the volume advantanges to the "target market" is AMD's strategy. Howerver, your parent poster is not part of this target market, which gives caseoutlet's Mini-ITX box some advantages.

1. Quality--I'm supposing, that with more buying power, they get to see the actual data that OEM statisticians use when they come up with that wonderful MTBF number, and get first pick on the drives that thus have higher TBF hours. Not every hard drive that has the same model number has the same failure rate.

2. Brand. According to this article on Cnet, AMD will stock these with Seagate and Samsung Products. From my standpoint, they just tend to be "better" than the random components that fit the general description of "DDR 128MB" or whathaveyou that caseoutlet.com features.

3. Price. The machine you talk about costs $296/$342 vs. $185. $185 is a lot easier for me to afford than than $296/$342, and I'm supposing people the PIC is targeted to think the same. A 10 GB hard drive bought in volume from the manufacturer vs. an 80 GB harddrive bought from a company who went through a distributor who bought from the manufacturer will likely be cheaper. Same with the RAM.

Power usage is another--people in the target markets don't exactly have the same quality electric service as Western markets; therefore every watt you save makes a difference. And the guy running the server might be concerned about how long the box could last on battery backup. The AMD Geode is a low-power version of the Cyrix MediaGX with MMX and 3Dnow. The GX 500 consumes 1.1W of power. The Eden 533 consumes 2.5 - 5 W of power, depending on whether the above link is an ESP or -N. Likely ESP as the -N is more embeddable and what I assume costly. I don't have model numbers so I can't compare the other components individual power usage.

Plus this is AMD's thing, and they're not gonna use a Via CPU in there when they have their own better solution. Moreover, as AMD has their market defined (perhaps too narrowly by not offering an optional RJ45 port), they can stick whatever components that fit that market in the box.

It's all about market, however. Your parent poster, somebody computer-literate in a developed nation, does not seem daunted by the task of getting a non-Windows OS on this working (It will likely be easier on the Eden box). If he's willing to cross demographics, then it's an ideal solution for his needs.

--sean

Expensive and slow...

[evilviper]

I don't get it. It's expensive, and slow, with no real features.

First of all, I could built a 1GHz+ PC for $200, so where's the advantage of this thing? Sure, it's probably lower power, but the monitor will be the thing using up most of the power anyhow, so there goes that advantage.

Size of the thing can't possibly be that big of a deal.

Tons and tons of open source easily available if you use Linux/BSD, unlike the practically non-existant selection of software for WinCE on Geode...

Personally, the fact they are using a regular monitor also bothers me. A typical B&W LCD would be really cheap, really low power, and good enough (TM)

$30 MSI KT133 mobo
$35 Duron 1.2GHz
$36 40GB Seagate HDD
$10 AGP Vid W/TV-out
$20 128MB PC133 RAM
$15 400+W PS
$21 Cheapo Case
$10 Philips DVD-ROM

That covers everything I can think of, and it's well under $200, even having much higher specs than AMD's supposedly cheap system. Plus, I have a similar system, and with fvcool or vcool running, it'll use under 40watts of power 99% of the time.

Megahertz isn't everything...well

[koafc]

We all know that megahertz isn't everything but 366 MHz???

Re:First Post?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny.

Want a toaster, get a toaster

[TheLink]

Well he can get a P4 and use it as a toaster- I'm sure one can make a computer that "Makes Toast".

Seriously though, computers give you a far greater number of choices than toasters. More choices = more decisions for users to make. The more powerful a computer system, the more choices you can make. The more decisions you have to make the more mistakes can be made.

Read email? "press a button". Ok so how do you hide/delete email (spam)? Mark emails for future reference? The more things you want to do, the more choices you have to make.

Bring up a website = Press a button? Which website out of the billions?

An easy to use computer system would be designed so that the popularly desired choices would be easy, and you don't have to make many decisions to do what you want.

A toaster only gives you a few choices. So it is easy.

You can set up a computer to be a physical appliance (webTV, tivo), but you'd end up running out of physical space if you wanted to do lots of different stuff.

What your friend has to understand is that the appliances are IN the computer system.

A computer will be like a toaster the day an entire chef's kitchen is like a toaster. An easy to use computer is like a well laid out kitchen, not a toaster.

Even if computers get to the stage where they can read your mind so you don't even need to push any buttons, if you can't think straight and don't know what you want, your mind becomes redundant or even counterproductive in the process. If it ever gets to that stage there will still be different levels of computer users - the differences would be well-laid-out _minds_ for interfacing with computers. It's like people with good coordination and people without.

Re:Want a toaster, get a toaster

[Pathway]

You make an excelent point: Computers are more complecated by design, and that makes them much more than simple appliances. Point taken, but you're preaching to the chior!

I've read Slashdot, and I know there tend to be two camps when it comes to non-technical computer users: The RTFM camp, which tends to belive that if you are to use a computer, you should know exactly how it works the the consequences you take using it. The other side, which we'll call "Idealistic Fools," witch I consider myself a card-carrying member, feel that that it should be possible for everybody to do whatever they want to without to much training.

So what can these two camps do? Compramise.

Currently, Linux (and other Open Source projects) are much more of the RTFM side. Not all, but...

I've seen the I-Opener, the WebTV... all go with various success... but I still think the idea of a cheap PC is viable, even inevitable... If the Cheap PC is going to happen, Windows XP won't be sold with it. Linux (or BSD, or another Open Source solution) would be an obvious choice...

We'll see where this goes. If this little PIC is able to make a full-fledged PC for under $200, I know of a school that would love to buy lots of them!

--Pathway

OT: About that New Empire.

[torpor]

They want an empire.

There are some - not all tin-foil - folks who believe that PNAC is a straw man. In fact, what PNAC is doing, is eroding the American Empire, by fostering anti-American'ism both abroad, and on the home front.

Using the "American Empire" meme to propagate criminal activity (Iraq, Afghanistan) is a means to alloy other world systems (EU, Russia, IMF, etc.) against the existing American society, paving the way for PNAC failure, opening the door for future integration of the American system into other fledgling world movements, such as the push for a One World Government (non-American).

In other words, Push America to Defeat America.

Its not all tin-foil, either. Some very smart people have caught on to this fact..

Re:OT: About that New Empire.

[mOdQuArK!]

Using the "American Empire" meme to propagate criminal activity (Iraq, Afghanistan) is a means to alloy other world systems (EU, Russia, IMF, etc.) against the existing American society, paving the way for PNAC failure, opening the door for future integration of the American system into other fledgling world movements, such as the push for a One World Government (non-American).

I don't believe the principal actors (read: Bush & Co.) have enough altruism to sacrifice themselves to achieve such a goal. Based on desriptions of their past personal histories, it's easier to believe that they really _do_ believe in an American Empire, but are not intelligent enough to carry it out and have ended up with the effect that you have described ("immunizing" other cultures against American influence).

Re:OT: About that New Empire.

[torpor]

I don't believe the principal actors (read: Bush & Co.) have enough altruism to sacrifice themselves to achieve such a goal.

Then I believe you are being very naive. The PNAC crew are very familiary with political shenanigans of this order; Machiavelli would be proud.

They're not immunizing other cultures from America, for the cause of America. They're instead creating conditions favourable to their lords and masters, the weapons makers, in 'the name' of America, guarantee'ing future economies in the trade of warfare and turmoil by agitating under the front of 'The Creation of An American Empire' (which stands only to suffer extremely poorly under the conditions created for it so far by this crowd).

Since the American economy is in a shambles, they can even justify this sacrifice of American virtue for the good of multi-national (but primarily American/European) War Machine Corps Profit as a 'national security matter' .. they have the language for that in the Exec Orders, for sure .. and those War Machine Corps' represent a significant revenue to the U.S. Gov't, and its People...

Emerging markets?!

[panth0r]

Emerging markets?!? What about college students?! Also, Think of the possibilities, a cluster running a couple hundred of these instead of servers. I suppose the ATBF would greatly increase... greatly... Blah, it's a stupid idea, but I'd buy one of these little suckers if it popped into my local BestBuy, which it won't....

re: FreeBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah, what is up with you, why FreeBSD on that thing?
NetBSD runs on almost anything - much more than FreeBSD.
And OpenBSD is maybe the safest on the net.

Think and Read First

[Moos3d]

Did people happen to miss that the $250 includes a monitor but can be bought cheaper without? Some people seem to forget that this isn't a mainstream gaming machine but a machine for people where space/portability and price is very important.

Here in Russia

[mrak018]

This PC is intended for developing countries
but here in Russia they are much more cheap (from $200):

http://www.ipcomp.ru/price/out.asp?id=1&idpr=1 83

*Personal* Internet *Communicator*?

[autophile]

When I saw the name, I figured it would be some kind of hand-held device that you could carry around with you and plug in anywhere. Well, you can, but you also need to carry around a huge-ass monitor and a keyboard, too.

How about calling it a really small, cheap PC?

--Rob

Can't sell in Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

Since PIC (piç) means bastard in turkish. More than bastard, s.o.b. :)

NewDeal Geoworks failed: Computers for what?

[xtermin8]

A couple of years back, NewDeal put out cheap (refurbished?) computers loaded with "geoworks" office. It was a good deal. It seems to me that the problem is that, without a specific purpose or benefit, the general public doesn't learn computers

& this is just a Cyrix MediaGX too

[DABANSHEE]

Remember the Geode is just a MediaGX embedded X86 chip, basically a Cyrix 686 with a embedded chipset (PS2, Serial, Parrallel, PCI/ISA bus & a memory controller & IDE controller)) & embedded multimedia (Video out, TV out & standard Audio I/O) all on a propietry socket & board.

They were developed by Cyrix to create a real cheap Pentium class platform. NatSemi bought Cyrix to get the Geode & sold the rest of Cyrix to VIA, then sold the Geode line to AMD about a year ago. AMD has also since bought out a new low powered Embedded Geode line based on underclocked Athlons. But I'm pretty sure these new web appliances are based on the traditional Geode platform, which still forms the majority of the range - chips don't go obsolete so quickly in the embedded market.

Actually in many cases developers will not develop applications that utilise a specific embedded chip unless they're confident the chip will be available for many years from the manufacturer. Mind you in cases where the embedded chip is basically a re-labeled PC chip, I assume the fabs just make a huge run before they ramp up to the newer/better/faster/whatever for the PC market, to cover demand in the embedded market for so many years. Hence the new vacume sealed Intel 486s with "Intel Embedded" or something similar printed on them, I saw in the IC section of a Yellow Pages sized Electronics components catalogue recently for about AU$15 each, & less than half that in quantity. & considering the list prices in these Farnell style, "deliver within one day" catalogues, they're bound to be heaps cheaper elseware.

Re:& this is just a Cyrix MediaGX too

[WECSooperGenius]

Neither MediaGX nor Athlon. It looks to be using the GX just like this

$249 price tag INCLUDES monitor!

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people have been replying that they can build a much more powerful machine for that price, but they fail to take into account the price of the monitor!

TFA says

[hummassa]

they want to sell in Latin America. Down here in Brasil we have land lines everywhere.