Slashdot Mirror
India Outsourcers Find Back Door in Canada
securitas writes "Metro International newspapers Toronto edition reports that more Indian companies are opening back doors into the United States by setting up shop in Canada. The issue of outsourcing, offshoring and nearshoring has become a hot issue, with the 2004 presidential election less than a week away. Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers."
I guess that makes me an evildoer, eh? Ah well, at least Guantanamo Bay will be warmer than Winnipeg this winter.
Trolling is a art,
Blame Canada?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think near-shore or off-shore makes no difference as they're still outsourcing, ie taking away jobs which could have been given to locals.
Bush said druing a debate that he will let Mexicans to come to US to work legally, and gradually obtain residency. If this happens, the Canadian-Indian issue is small in comparison.
Maybe the ideal "screening" is based on the percentage of employees' residency status, so if over 50% of a Canadian company is from developing countries, it's no deal.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
He could of introduced plenty of bills supporting his current election platform as a senator, why didn't he? What makes you think he'll do it now if elected president? Just asking.
why is that in the summary at all...
oh i forgot, it has to be prokerry, it just cant be a simple explanation of events.
the politics section of slashdot is a soapbox for kerry.
EDITORS: ever hear of ATTEMPTING to not show bias
If Dell outsources their tech support to Canada, at least I'll be able to understand the guy as opposed to the current situation....
As anyone knows who has hit someone in India the accents can be very hard to understand, Canadian accents (if any) are very close to americain ones so you might be able to get the help you need!
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid shill
I think it's because there was a fad for awhile for directors of TV and movies to film in Canada, because it was cheaper, and for a little while a lot of places in Southern California were feeling it. But then prices started going up in the areas in Canada where filming was being done because there was awareness that there were lots of rich people there all of a sudden, and the locals acted accordingly. It'll balance itself out. At least, in my youthful optimism, I'm going to hope it will.
Did they follow proper disclosure procedures and report the backdoor to the Canadian government before submitting it to Slashdot?
Why doesn't anyone ever talk about all the jobs being insourced? The real "Benedict Arnold" companies are those that move their headquarters overseas -- in the form of a rented office in Bermuda -- to avoid paying US taxes, not US-based companies with manufacturing centers in other countries. Those are the real tax cheats.
Bungo!
What tax loophole is this exactly? I know that the companies avoid certain expenses just due to lower wages offshore, but taxes too?
If there is a loophole, closing it would mean more revenues for the government (plus for them) and/or less outsources (plus for us)
a member of the axis of evil.
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
Good thing there's only Call Centres in Canada, then. (Spelling loophole?)
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
I would say 'aaagh' sounds pretty much the same in any language. You mean you had trouble understand the guy's accent when he was cussing you for hitting him?
Also please remember that the US has spent the last twenty five years literally ramming free trade down the world's collective throat (admittedly, an effort made on behalf of the financial elite, not workers).
Up here in Montreal, ads for "shooters" are all over the place in the alternatve weeklies promising good money. I've often wondered what a "shooter" is.
Seems to me that it might be a cool name for a phone scammer.
Canadian companies have imported India to Canada in IT for quite sometime.
I used to work for a Canadian company, which receives grants from the government as sys admin (50+ servers), an avarage 10-12 hrs a day due to intentional understaffing, on call every second week, including weekends, with the demand that at any time I had to be able to be there within 30 minutes - for a splended $28K a year, no overtime payment.
Felt like a hightech sweatshop in India, I swear.
I'm a Canuck, and I remember chatting with a guy from the States (I think it was Texas), and during the conversation I said the word "house". He suddenly burst out laughing and told me to say "house" again. I did and he was nearly rolling around on the floor. He said us Canadians pronounce certain words funny. Go figure.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
Did you plug in the computer, eh? What aboot the power button, eh, did you push it?
When Australia outsources to Indian call centres, they give the Indian a new name. You see it all is ok that I can't understand what the heck the guy as saying.. because his name is Barry, or Kevin. The Canadians just need a nice American name... that makes it all better :(
iSnack 2.0 - Download it now to your iToast 9.0
...that is after France, Russia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Palestine, Germany, Florida, and this little Iraq mess is cleaned up, and then I guess there is North Korea to deal with and China and maybe Australia is looking at us a little side-ways and needs a 20kiloton dropped a couple miles off of Sydney just to shake them up. Deal with yourselves America, you were a great country only 40 years ago but now its all crocodile tears rolling down a pair of disgustingly flabby cheeks.
You're fighting a Knob Goblin Assistant Chef. You failed to hit the monster.
vicious, untreated political sewage...niche entertainment for the spiritually unattractive...worshipless pap
Far more important. The dollar is weakening, Americans are getting cheaper.
HTH
Not that I think Bush has a clue what he's doing. A one trick pony who isn't even very good at that trick.
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but you can always move there and outsource them http://www.kaminternational.com/main.asp
"Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers." After that, he plans to raise corporate taxes and drive the companies back overseas anyway. I can't understand why people can't see through this man's shameless pandering. On one hand, he acknowledges that a company's tax burden influences their decision to outsource and on the other he slams Bush for lowering corporate tax burden to keep them from moving offshore.
Why not close all business loopholes and perhaps create a flat business income tax? This way there's no weaseling out of it somehow. Wouldn't this increase tax revenue? Perhaps only on businesses making over a certain amount, since small businesses could be hurt.
If you want to get the guy back, just ask him to say any word with more than 3 syllables. I guarantee you'll laugh at least as hard.
It started with outsourcing of Auto manufacturing jobs to Japan because they could build better cars cheaper. All that remained in the U.S. were few design jobs. This led to a decrease in in the number of auto jobs in the U.S. and a downward pressure on auto job salaries.
However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer.
The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before.
Same thing might happen in the IT industry.
The question I have is, why all the roundabout? Why didn't the US companies outsource to Canada in the first place, if it's so wonderful, instead of India?
I really fail to see any real solution to this issue being presented. Tax loopholes won't erase the fact that there are qualified workers in a cheaper business environments. All the tax loophole becomes is a Red Herring for the real issue. Let's come up with serious and real solutions to this. A. India has very qualified workers B. They are very will to work and will work for a lower wage C. The end result usually comes out to be similiar to what would be done in the U.S. I'm not sure what could be done, but I know that Tax Loopholes have nothing to do with the real problem of outsourcing. --- Get Firefox!
It is true that not matter how you look at it out sourcing is bad for the US, not so of course for the place its being insourced to, but if I had to pick a place for jobs to be outsourced it would be Canada. Why? Because there is a lot a trade and tourist between us and them and some of that money might make its way back to the states
"A mexican immigrant that comes here to work, gradually gaining citizen ship, is contributing to the economy. His wages are taxed, and the things he consumes are local. i.e. he's going to be buying groceries, goods, renting a house, etc. "
I've heard that that isn't the case for those who come over on a work visa. As for the second, how much do they contribute to the local economy verses a native, and how close to reality does your answer corollate (don't presume).
I would have gladly voted for Dean. And while I am ranting on that - why do we place so much of the decision of candidates on hicks from Iowa. It is obvious they had done absolutely no political research and went for who was better looking. There needs to be a way to correctly adjust for primary momentum.
Democrats were headed for a solid win and then one stupid rally incident for Dean and then swapping to Kerry totally ruined any chance of bringing in moderate conservatives. Democrats need to vote with their heads a little more.
First off I'm voting for Kerry, but the idea that new legislation is going curb the tax advantages of outsourcing is ludicrous. So lets say Kerry does pass such a bill, what will happen? Large companies will simple open up offshore subsiaries to skirt the law, similiar to what Haliburton did under the leadership of Dick Cheney, by having a Caymen islands phantom corporation in order to business with nations like Iran.
The Loosers always blame the winners ,
Oh take off, ya hoser!
from an old episode of This Hour Has 22 Minutes
An Apology to Americans
By Reporter 'Anthony St. George' (Performed by Colin Mochrie)
Hello. I'm Anthony St. George on location here in Washington.
On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it's not like you actually elected him.
I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you'd never do that.
I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.
I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.
I'm sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you've rebuilt it! It's very nice.
I'm sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.
And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. Because we've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.
For 22 minutes, I'm Anthony St. George, and I'm sorry.
Dell are already built in Canada and they also do support in Canada too , its Texas factory that got closed ...
away seeing the world.
" are very close to americain ones "
... Canadian are "THE" americans
...
...
You mean Etats-Unians
American lives in a democracy
US = Republic
Canada = Democracy
American always win the war
Canada as ye to loose one war
US , well let just say that you cant even beat Irak
etc
It won't last. As someone else pointed out. Hollywood used Canada for a while until the locals wised up and prices went up.
.50 for lunch. Once India starts cleaning up, the rates will rise and they'll outsource again.
The difference is that Canada has a significantly better quality of life than the average Indian. So the Indian company can pay an Indian call center employee 8,000 a year, he'd still have to pay a Canadian call centre employee 30,000 or 40,000 a year. This is vs a call center employee here making 40,000 to 50,000 a year. (All WAG's, recent tech support position advertised on dice.com was for 55 an hour).
When India starts fining the companies dumping waste into the Ganges, the companies will pass on the costs to the citizens which will then require raises in order to be able to afford the goods these companies sell. When the wages get too high, they'll outsource to China. Then China will start fining the mining companies (chinese dieing in unsafe mines because it's either work the mine or starve) or waste management folks (chinese exposed to toxic waste from computer salvaging) and the cycle starts again.
I think my salary (currently non-existant) is globally balanced. When you consider all aspects, I was getting paid the same amount, adjusted for living conditions, as the guy in India who got $10,000 and pays
Shit better not happen!
"It started with outsourcing of Auto manufacturing jobs to Japan because they could build better cars cheaper. "
NO, it started with them competing against the amercican car makers with a better product. The american jobs were still here.
"However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer."
Actually no. Tariffs were majorily responsible for that. It's cheaper to make them here because TADA! No tariff on local goods. Compare to making and shipping to a tariffed country. Plus as a side bonus you can stick that "made in america" label on it as a selling point.
"The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before."
I live in Indiana, they still get paid decent.
Candidate John Kerry has also said he'll add a $2 trillion dollar giveaway in the form of universal health care to everyone projected to be on the dole when it gets implemented without raising my taxes.
Right.
[ home ]
You're allowed to smack Texans upside the head. They usually deserve it.
I'll be able to go flee to Canada and work for Indians to escape the draft after Bush, freed from even the accountability of worrying about the election, in his second term continues on more military adventures although our military is still overtaxed in Iraq?
Sounds great, where do I sign up?
No, really, I'm serious.
Kerry's not against outsourcing when he makes money from it - just like he really enjoys the 15% tax rate he and Tereza paid last year. And just you wait who he defines as "rich" and therefore due for a tax increase if he's elected.
competition.
I'm probably going to upset a few people in saying this, but....what's the big deal? If we apply the same rules to the American work force as we do to corporations, then without outsourcing, the American work force would be considered a monopoly. That is, companies would be forced to hire American workers, depsite that they may work less efficiently than their overseas counterparts (much like Microsoft products vs. Linux).
The idea of outsourcing is to (1) buy cheaper labor and thus (2) increase profits for American companies. These increased profits must go somewhere, and in fact, they go to the stockholders, along with entrepreneurs and/or managers who make such outsourcing decisions.
In fact, I would say that outsourcing lowers the barrier to entry for the capitalist market. Nowdays, companies can be formed with smaller initial capital because some of the labor/manufacturing is outsourced. If anything, outsourcing stimulates the entreprenurial spirit--something I would consider the heart of captialism itself.
Outsourcing will be a major player in advancing the U.S. technologically. If someone has an innovation, they don't have to invest millions to start up a company, buy equipment, hire workers, etc. You spend orders of magnitude less by securing a patent, sending design specs overseas, getting your product, testing and tweaking it, then order the product by the boatload and sell it to the public. I already see this happening to some degree already.
We will truly be a society where ideas and innovation are valued and rewarded appropriately. The little guy will have a chance to succeed, anyone will a little cash and a good idea can do big things.
Just my $0.02
Buy Japaanese or online. Claim 6 dependents on your taxes an pay later.
All republicans know this.
I have non-indian friends who were doing this in Toronto 20 years ago ;) This is just competition!
Ah forget aboot the computer eh! Have a beer ya hoser and take off eh?
finally someone understands and realizes the true potential, cananda would like to have more american workers in technology, and they are willing to allow draft dodgers in, this is as good as it gets, if your already in canada you avoid the draft by not receiving notification, remember the military needs medics and scientists/engineers/programmers
According to a recent article in "The Economist": "Mr. Kerry's ranting about outsourcing has irritated economists: a huge majority dismiss outsourcing as either a small or non-existent problem, and almost 60% give Mr. Kerry's trade policy a bad or very bad rating." As an academic, I see some opportunities going to international students, but I don't really mind. I know I am on the international market myself, and I'm a good candidate to take a position overseas. Coming from a middle-class family, I have yet to know anyone in my family or community affected by outsourcing. Why is Kerry making this an issue? Do other people really have horror stories about this, or is the notion of outsourcing an encapsulated blurb that gets votes, because it sounds like the right thing to vote against.
your attitude towards being responsible, seems very passive. It is that very attitude that has the USA so screwed up today. To many people got it in their head that they are not responsible for what they do, allow to happen, or support.
If people would just take responsibility for their actions, instead of pointing at something or someone else as the source of blame, we would all be better off.
Steal, blame it on your being unemployed, poor, or any other excuse...(why take that lower paying job to get by, it isn't your fault...)
Allow a drug house to run your neighborhood, it isn't up to you to protect yourself or your neighborhood...(let them shoot up your loved ones, and kill em with drugs, it isn't your job to call the police)
See your job end, as it is outsourced to another country...(if only you had voted for the people that would have voted that sort of thing down...)
Watch the politicians screw over the citizens for decades, and don't vote in protest...(ya, protest by not voting, that will make a point... pathetic)
If you except responsibility,VOTE, after all, it isn't just a privilege, it is up to all that are eligible to vote, else the office will be held by those working to support the smallest minority (the rich), and the majority will be "expendable".
VOTE or STFU and except your role as "expendable".
If I hadn't been through all of this election I probably wouldn't have believed my eyes. This report from last February from people in Wisconson finding Caller ID signatures from Canada for the Kerry Election Call Center? Makes you wonder if there will be political loopholes in any laws similar to those for the National No Call list.
Today is a gift. Save the receipt.
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3 schools did a vote where i live between kerry and bush.
bush got less than 3 percent in all 3 schools.
So, bush can actually take credit for educating our children now, because they are much smarter than when the democrats were running our educational system.
I LOVE TEXAS!!!
No real Texas Cowboy would vote for the yankee transplant this election.
You really should read what you write.
"When India starts fining the companies dumping waste into the Ganges, the companies will pass on the costs to the citizens which will then require raises in order to be able to afford the goods these companies sell. "
"Once India starts cleaning up, the rates will rise and they'll outsource again."
So, instead of a raise (or passing on for that matter) they simply move. Ever hear of the Superfund? Wonder were some of the companies are?
While we're at it. Let's pretend that companies are accountable for their actions, and will be punished for the bad ones.
my friend works for d-link support and they are all told by their supervisors that they're supposed to answer that they are located in d-link headquarters in the US whenever customers ask them eventhough the reality is that they are in canada. there are actually customers out there that ask the tech support people whether they are located in india or china.
i'm not entirely sure that quality jobs are moving to canada. i agree with tech support jobs coming here, but i dont see any EE jobs. on the contrary, my school's career fair had a record number of EE-related companies this year since 2001 (sounds like an exaggeration -- there were only 4 and that was "good").
to be honest, as a master student about to graduate in EE, i have not much of a clue as in to how i'm going to find a decent career-related job anywhere (in canada or US).
i'm unable to vote because i'm not american, but i wish you guys out there elect the "correct" president for 2004.
my blog
Why does not someone just come up with a real-time accent and artifact removal filter. For Indians you will need to spread out the syllables while maintaining the pitch. For Canadians you will have to remove the trailing "eh" from sentences.
I would suppose you could optimize the filter per individual and maybe one of the options on the phone menu is that you can select the dialect you are comfortable with. For example you can select:
+ West Texas drawl (replace all "you" with a you'all so "you do have the power turned on eh?" becomes "ya'all do have the power the turn").
+ New York/Jerseyan insulting snarl (remove all r's from the stream and add a little color. For example "Yo you idiot, you do have the powe tuned on doncha."
...And close one of the loopholes for his wife's companies?
Ha!
India Outsourcers Find Back Door in Canada
Who knew Canada had a hidden asshole up there somewhere?
I'm still going to buy the set of knives for my mother. I've been able to handle these knives for a week now and I've got to say they feel absolutelty teriffic. The weight and balance of this full tang knife is amazing. I wonder if Slashdot would take a review on a set of cooking knives... When it comes to good quality knives there's Wusthof and Henckels. There was an enormous discount on them at the time so I got an excellent deal on this stellar set of knives ($180 bucks I think). I think I'm going to buy another set for myself as a present too. Hell I might just make that my general purpose X-mas gift for all my family this year. That's a damned good idea! If anyone happens to buy them, though, make sure you don't buy a set of shears too unless you just want your own set. For the foreseeable future t
... on drugs .
If Kerry says he will relax restrictions on purchasing cheap drugs from Canada, it is good for the American people. If Kerry says that he will impose restrictions on corporations purchasing comparatively cheap labor from Canada , it is bad for the American people. I see a dilemma here.
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the supposedly liberal crowd, that would often complain about the rich countries not giving enough aid to the poor ones, quickly rushes to highly illiberal views depriving the poor of ways to build honest wealth through honest work.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Exports are cheaper. Harleys now only cost £5000 where they used to be nearer £8000. Course in the particular case of Harley they'd have to reach £3000 to be worth buying but the US does make other products.
Deleted
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Here's some real homework on the whole issue. http://www.factcheck.org/article225.html I'd highly suggest this non-partisan site for anyone of either persuasion who wants a few zingers to shut up the overbearing Kerry (or Bush) supporter sitting in the next cube.
The article only explains half the story. This is actually worse, and I had been expecting it for somtimes.
This is how Canada is a backdoor to the US:
You'd think that because Canadians are cheaper (slightly) that they are using Canadians to do Americans jobs.
Having lived there, I can say that nope, this isn't how it works at all, its worse than that!
Here is what they are doing: (basically, they are moving the Indians to Canada, to outsource them on US projects, because it is easier to get an Indian to Canada than it is to the US. So Canadians aren't even getting the jobs either, because even Canadians are too expensive!)
Canada has a very lax foreigner friendly and immigration policy. Especially if companies go waving around money about 'investing in Canada', the Canadian govt. will buy into it, because they (think) that this will create Canadian jobs rather than destroy them.
Satyam opens his company (I wonder how many of his 120 employees in company in Canada are not Indian). Then bring in Indians/foreigners to do the work less than Canadians will.. (but the office wouldn't have been opened anyways if you couldnt do this, so the Cdn govt doesnt mind that much really).
Then outsource the Indians in Canada, to US projects. Voila! Timezone and connectivity problems all go away because the cheap Indians are now in Canada and not India!
Then it gets even better! Unlike the USA, Canada has a very quick and easy naturalization process (takes only a few years), and then the Indians become 'Canadian' and get Canadian passports.
Then, because of the NAFTA agreement, those Indians can come to America, and take Americans jobs as that is now a T1 Free trade visa, and not an H1B. T1s have no limit, anyone who wants one who is Canadian with a college education in IT can get one and move to the US.
T1s hadn't been a problem since Canadian and American standard of living were almost the same anyways, but with this scam, the whole safeguard goes out the window.
So no one in North America really benefits from this, not the Americans, nor Canadian IT people either..its a purely Indian play.
Its a great plan really, surprised they didn't think of it earlier. Hard to fix it though, if Canada stops the practice, then they can just use Mexico the same way I suppose.
I just recently finished a project and I'm looking for work, and of all things, here's an article that mentions the only company that's actually going out of its way to court me - TCS.
TCS is offering me a reasonable salary (not going by "market prices", going by how much it cost me to develop my skills and how long I can expect to work over the course of my pre-retirement life). Note that that's "salary". It's not a contract job. It's not a consulting gig. It's a full-time position with benefits. And a lot of good solid laws about how they can dismiss or fire me.
Why is that relevant? My last five positions have all been contract work. They've been horrible jobs, you get no respect, and on top of it all they pay absurdly high sums of money. It's silly. They shouldn't be paying people this much. I have lost more job opportunities for asking a reasonable fee than for any other reason - if I don't double my asking price they simply dismiss me.
And on that topic, TCS is looking for "UNIX administrators". They don't want a "Solaris Administrator". They value a portable skillset and the ability to be flexible. They don't demand a million buzzwords on your resume. They want somebody skilled, they're no-nonsense, there's very little politics or executive bullshit. Kudos to them. On that basis alone if they set up shop in the US they'd be able to offer the same services for half the price than their other US competitors, even if they used US labour (which is also amazingly overpaid, given they tend to demand not "reasonable renumeration" but "what the market will bear" - same as all the profit-hungry execs which are busy offshoring or nearshoring their jobs).
Lastly, no matter what that "Liberal media" in the US tells you, the US isn't the one getting raped by NAFTA. It's Mexico and Canada. We've bent over and taken it up the ass on so many issues it's not funny; even when the NAFTA tribunal (which is heavily-tilted in favour of US companies) rules in our favour, the US ignores their findings - even when the *WTO* rules in our favour, the US ignores them. We got NAFTA rammed down our throats and we've been taking it up the ass for years. Now all of a sudden there's a field where we're some of the best in the world and we're not charging obscene sums of money for our services, and I for one am not going to shed a single crocodile tear over it.
You're not competing with Indians who would starve if they weren't working in the call-center any more. You're competing with well-educated Canadians who understand the value of a dollar and aren't out to dick everybody around. I think you'll find that we're a pretty damned valuable bunch.
I was stuck on a plane from Dallas to Frankfurt with this Texan lady who insisted on yammering at me the entire trip. I didn't understand a word she said the entire time, but I just kept nodding my head. Her accent was so thick you could stand a fork upright in it.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
You can't be serious... hopefully my browser just isn't displaying ::sarcasm:: tags. :/
If you are serious, you better pick up the phone. That's your shrink calling to find out why you missed your appointment.
Have you ever left your comfy-little-house on comfy-little-lane in comfy-little-town, USA? Ethnic diversity is at least as large in the US as in Canada.
And have you ever been to another country where YOU were the minority culture? Often, no matter how hard you try, you're never going to assimilate and will ALWAYS stick out like a sore thumb to locals.
Just because someone sticks out as a foreigner to you doesn't mean that they're savages who seek to destory your ways and long live the reign of their culture...
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FYI (In case you missed that day in preschool) the US was built on a policy of immigration and forcing a policy of assimilate or be destroyed onto the natives.
How can you now cry foul when someone (in your opinion) is doing the same thing to you now?
But as far as taxes go, how is that a closeable loophole. The only fix is to introduce a direct directly focussed on outsourcing (to which I say, go for it, except don't tax Canada as it's a bad idea with such closely tied economies).
I really hope your trying to be funny here. Realize that if the US shutdown trade with Canada, there would be serious problems in BOTH countries. Canada provides fossil fuels, fresh water, lumber, etc. to the US in huge quantities.
I won't go into too much detail here, but guess what, Canada doesn't want to assimilate immigrants. Keeping your culture and values is part of being Canadian.
Mexico is rife with corruption because its people are fundamentally dishonest. By contrast, the phenomenal honesty of the Japanese (even compared to traditional Westerners like the Americans) helped Japan to succeed. Police stations in Japan are "littered" with lost-and-found items because strangers frequently submit items (e.g. cash, umbrellas, etc.) that they find.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
maybe we are just expecting to be over paid. Why would Indians in canada get paid less than Canadians? They both have to pay the same for their stuff. Just because you arn't willing to work that cheap doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to.
Personaly, I like having cheap tech support workers because even if they don't know much more, they are still better than talking to a computer. And, they can pass me up to somone who doesn't need a script if the script won't solve my problem.
Not to mention the the fact that the money these companies are saving will be invested on other things which creates more jobs.
It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese
The Roman Empire failed because in too many places it required the senators / soldiers to be born in Rome along with other strict ethnic requirements.
The US Empire must allow people who CAN do the job to do it. Otherwise it too will collapse.
The problem is that sure, more companies can start with smaller initial capital, and sure some products will be cheaper, but more americans will be out of work.
How will you feel when your boss comes up to you and says "you are fired, we are replacing you with some one over seas who will work for 1/8 what you make and doesnt want any benefits"
Thats the problem with out sourcing. Americans are not getting jobs they could be getting, and some Americans are losing their jobs.
What do you say to this? "get a different job?" Well, when you have studied for 6 years in a university to get a degree in whatever you do, you are going to want to apply it to that field of work arent you? But you can't now can you? Thats right, that job you could you could get is now in India, or Tailand.
So, you go on ahead and enjoy your wasted degree, and you have fun knowing that when outsourcing happens more people are unhappy in a job they don't want. At least some things will be cheaper and we'll have more start up companies... right?
http://www.pleasurecaptains.com
What is interesting is that the US applies this also to its citizens and green card holders across the world. If you are a US citizen living in Paris, you must file for US taxes unless you receive a very small amount. However higher french taxes and a double-taxation treaty means that you don't get to pay taxes in the US.
America wants to sell stuff from us but will not buy from us. India has been traditionally a closed economy. The US convinced us that India should buy since free trade was *very important* for the US companies who sell lotsa stuff including the computer I am using to type this message, the router, the server, my ford car, my motorola phone and my levi jeans.
Its okay that India buys all these things and provides employment to millions of people, but US loses some IT jobs and suddenly free trade is a bad thing.
Fine. Thats no problem. You can have all your IT jobs back if the other companies agree not to sell anything in India. They are takign jobs away from Indian car/phone/clothes companies.
BTW, people should also protest against richer states like CA that take jobs away from poor states. Would you be okay if the job you lost went to another state within the US?
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
Whew. I was worried I wouldn't get a job taking calls from irate users. How about instead focusing on the jobs America could really use like software development?
However, I do think it is unfair that individual long term capital gains are taxed at a lower rate. I do not think that giving "long term investors" that the lower long term capital gains rate is worth the benefit of the supposed better corporate governance that long term investors are assumed to provide, but that's another matter.
Extra taxation of profits because the legal structure used was a corporation instead of a partnership or similar entity means that slightly more businesses will choose legal structures that prevent you from being able invest in them by buying stock. As a result, small investors have fewer opportunties.
The primary service that coporations get in exchange for this extra taxation is the ability to sell stock that does not cause the shareholders to be held responsible for the company's debts. That service is obviously worth something, since many businesses still choose to incorporate, but it's a very different service package from what individuals get, so it is not a sign of unfairness that the taxes for these two different sets of benefits are different.
If you really think that corporate and personal income tax are supposed to be analagous, then, by the "no taxation without representation" principle, you should be in favor of giving corporations the right to cast votes (in addition to their shareholders and employees voting).
Regarding your "Only in America," claim, almost every country taxes the pre-distribution profits of corporations and similar structures differently from that of individuals.
Kerry admitted during the second debate that his "plan" wouldn't really do anything. The problem isn't tax loopholes, the problem is that offshore workers are so freaking cheap. An offshore worker gets paid a week what people in the US get every hour, sometimes less. And that's big money in the offshore country.
That's a pure cost savings right there.
Plus, the tax issues mentioned wouldn't apply, because most offshoring is arms-length, There aren't income tax issues there, because the offshore company probably isn't a subsidiary of the mother company.
All Kerry can really do is make it socially unacceptable to offshore. But at a 30-to-1 cost advantage, well, the savings goes into the EPS number. It's hard to argue with a 40-60% savings.
I'd like to point out that the story as posted edited out the attribution.
Editors: Please don't remove quotation marks where they are necessary because that effectively results in plagiarism. The words in quotes are not mine. They belong to the reporter.
Also, the reference to the interview with the Chairman of Satyam - an Indian outsourcer that has set up shop in Toronto - was removed. Knowing that Slashdotters often don't read the source articles, I included that detail as an incentive for people to read what the leader of a large outsourcing company has to say about this politicized business practice.
Original post follows:
Ask an American to pronounce the word "roof" next time you talk to one. You'll get a good laugh out of it. Sounds like a dog barking.
The department of homeland security has declared this is not terror related.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
"Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers."
translation: John Kerry will make it so businesses will be punished for seeking lower prices.
trade is NOT zero-sum. We benefit from "outsourcing" even if few have lost jobs. it's better labeled "competative advantage".
Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
Wusthof knives are OK but I have given up on henckels. If you really want great knives I would go for the japanese brands myself. Global (forged only) or masahiro are fantastic.
If you want German knives the messermeisters are a great value and are as good as wusthofs IMHO.
If you want the best bang for the buck I'd go with forschner or Tramontina Professional Series. Tramontina are made in Brazil and are an exceptional value for being forged.
If I was buying something for my mother I'd by the tramontina, for myself I am saving up for a nenox.
evil is as evil does
Seriously, though, this post looks like a campaign ad for John Kerry. Not the article, the post. If we're going to post a factual article, don't turn it into a campaign ad for either candidate by including commentary such as "John Kerry supports such a plan", or "George Bush supports such a plan", or "Ralph Nader is just too damn high to do anything about it."
Problem is, Canada has a lot of different dialects just like the US. So the trick is to connect the right customers to the right area, and then filter out any remaining problems. For example, anyone who speaks or has an oriental accent would be right at home in Hongcouver, er, I mean Vancouver. California would connect nicely with the rest of British Columbia (as would any pockets of hippies, potheads or neo-whatevers). Texans would be right at home with Alberta. If you're a rancher, call Cowtown (Calgary), and if you're a rig-pig, call Edmonton (though us locals pronounce it "Emmuntun"). The province isn't called "Texas North" for nothing you know. (Quick aside: I had a chance to converse with several Texans at a previous job through our companies internal support network. One of them once remarked to me "Gee I shur like talkin to ya'll in Emmuntun, I caint unnastand em Turana (Toronto) guys!").
I'm sure much of the american heartland would be a suitable match for the vast farmland that is Saskatchewan. Add the indian (oh, im sorry, "Native American" or whatever the politically correct term is) population you still have down there to that one too. Manitoba, well, unfortunatly building a call center in Manitoba isn't a very good idea as it would be buried in 10 feet of snow or water, depending on the season. Of course, the call center workers would still get there, its just that the underground phone lines would have shattered from the -75 degree temperatures. Much of the eastern seaboard would probably be fairly comfortable with Ontario. It would be especially funny to connect NYC to Toronto and have the two argue over the exact location of the center of the universe. All other calls could be routed to the maritimes. Oh, and we could connect Boston to St.Johns for some real fun:
"Deel suppot cenner, Shamus speakin. What'n bye yer trubble?"
"Yea, my computaw stoppt, uh stoppt wuhkin hea"
"Lard t'undren Jaysus! Well be shea stuck in'da wahl?"
"Wah? Wer ain fihten no wah!"
"Wahl laddie, th' WAHL! Ye gotter pluggd inn'er, donchya?"
"Yea yea, but ahh - no lites"
"Oh dem wee twinklers gon outin ya didshe?"
"Yea.. wut?"
"Jus giver a good thumpin on da side dere ann sea iffat fixer up."
*WHACK* "Uh... yea yea it wuhkd! Hea thanks man!"
"Aye thar be nuttin too't! Thankya fer us'n deel, an keepyer sails'n tha win' now eh?"
"Yea! Letah!" *Click*
Yup. Its just about connecting the right dots.
Im not american. But the call centre issue is not only a hot topic in the US. The UK are following the US's way and setting up call centres in india/etc etc..
Its always interesting to see that most often than not the quality of service depreciates and the profits of the companies increase. This has been discussed several times in slashdot previously. But the real issue is that the tax loop hole gets closed so that companies can benefit less from moving people off shore. Yeah it may benefit the indians to some extent but there are 1bn of them and most of thier call centre staff are not perfect english speakers. I recently rang a UK based company that had thier call centre in india to find that hte person had such bad english I had to ask for someone else. I had to go through three people to find someone. In the end I cancelled my account in favor of not even having that type of service any more. In principal I will deal with as few internationally based call centres as possible.
Go Kerry.. I wont vote in the US election but the principal stands strong.
...sooner or later. The simple truth is that there are a LOT of Indian immigrants in Canada in the major business sectors around Toronto. All they are doing is bringing their business with them as well as their family. Smart people as far as I'm concerned.
Is that what the Native Indians say?
Now, that reasoning doesn't apply for a company that wants to get on the government dole selling them weapons or prisons or eavesdropping equipment or tax-collector data-processing services, especially if they'd be illegal if operated in the purchasing country, or things like that; those guys ought to put up with the bad effects of the Administration they're supporting.
You're not "cheating" on taxes if you arrange your affairs in ways that aren't taxable - even the Supreme Court has declared that over the years. You're only cheating if you're turning in dishonest returns. Enron and their ilk may have been cheating on their taxes, or may have only been cheating their investors - but somebody who moves their headquarters offshore because it's advantageous is no worse than someone who registers their company in Delaware or Nevada because it's advantageous.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
..what you say is correct, but there are other aspects to consider. A US company competes in a global marketplace, they're competing against products made all over the world. If for example an Indian company makes a piece of software similar to your entirely "made in the USA" product, their costs will have been much lower, they'll be able to sell it for less and nobody will buy your software - you're completely screwed. Outsourcing allows you to lower your costs, which isn't just trying managements evil attempt to fire you. Outsourcing also allows other advantages, you can exist as a small startup company in the US with a core R&D team and a great idea. When you've designed the product you can suddenly have a team of 100 in Bangalore coding like banshees for 6 months to make it a reality - and when you've got your product you can wave them goodbye. Without outsourcing you'd either be trapped as a small company, have taken years to code the same yourself - and miss your window of opportunity, have been bankrupted taking on US contractors or have taken on employees and either kept them on afterwards (bankruptcy) or laid them off. Because of outsourcing you're now a small company, with a great product you're selling around the world, making a tonne of money and paying a lot of tax into the US system. Point I was trying to make is that outsourcing isn't right or wrong, good or bad, it's another tool and if you refuse to accept it exists or use it if available you'll be screwed.
Indians and other nations that perform cheap outsourced labor have much more cause to complain than the US or the Europeans: the US and Europeans are using huge amounts of money to subsidize farmers, who then turn around and dump their products on other markets. As a result, those other nations can't even compete in markets in which they ought to be competitive if it were a level playing field. Now, Americans get upset when people in those nations do manufacturing, service, and technical jobs for peanuts and want to take away those jobs as well. What are those people supposed to do?
If the US keeps trying to keep every profitable business opportunity to itself, at some point, those nations may well decide that so-called "free trade" with the US just isn't in their interest anymore.
All those companies making their cars in America! Darn them all!
I mean we'll have to get rid of insourced jobs if we get rid of outsourced jobs. We'll all be better off. Trust me, I have thought through the implications of my rash economic policy.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Knowing that Slashdotters often don't read the source articles
Stop reading articles about Slashdotters...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
if the companies want to move offshore, that is their business. That is what liberty and freedom is all about.
Where I have an issue is when the Feds gave a 5 BILLION deal to EDS to do computer system who did move overseas. That is just plain wrong. Worse, Kerry should be burning W. for that decision.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I for one am tired of being cheep foreign labour.
I want to be expensive foreign labour.
to tax oversees profits of its firms is the United States. This would put American companies operating oversees at a big disadvantage, and is one reason some companies have relocated to Bermuda, the Caymans, etc.
In order to level the playing field, the federal government allows companies to defer their taxes -- that is, they don't pay tax on those profits until that money is brought over to the US.
There are two ways to close this tax loop-hole. You could remove the deferment, but this encourages even more companies to offshore their corporate hq. Or you could remove the tax all together.
The Economist had a good summary of this a while ago.
Good lord; do we really need to read any further?
If ((today=="Monday") && (moon="FULL")) {
CLAIM=position(1);
}
else
{
CLAIM=position(2);
}
"Keeping your culture and values is part of being Canadian"
In other words, there is no such thing as a Canadian culture; it's not a melting pot. Balkanism at its finest. Won't work, Sparky. Try something else while you still have time.
Ok, first of all, it is not this phantom tax loophole that makes offshoring attractive - and it's not as if this tax "loophole" even exists. It is not a loophole at all. What makes it advantageous for taxes is that the US cannot collect income tax from people who don't live and work in the US. Duh! That's not a loophole, it's just the law. We will never be able to close this loophole because we cannot collect income tax from foreign citizens working in a foreign country.
Moving on. The factor that really makes offshoring attractive is that, for a call center as an example, the labor and utility costs are so much less. An American might demand $12/hr to work at a call center, which is expensive for someone who just reads a script over the phone all day. On top of that, the company has to pay for real-estate (which is ridiculous in this country right now), insurance (which is also ridiculous thanks to frivolous lawsuits), payroll taxes (FICA, Medicare) which are high because of government fat, high utilities due to high cost of energy in general, and a host of other factors that makes low-income jobs difficult to maintain in the US.
What makes these things cheaper in a place like India? Well, first of all, a dollar in America goes a long way in India because of the exchange rate and the differentiated standard of living. Something that costs $10 to buy here costs $1 in India, including labor. Second, India itself has a hugely growing economy and infrastructure, and for American businesses to participate in building that growing nation, they have to have a presence there anyway. India has a very nationalist government and they won't allow foreign companies to simply walk in and take money out of the country. India needs call centers for India, too, and those call centers by Indian law must be located in India. Also, Indian law also requires things that are sold in India to have some % of Indian-manufactured content. So, for infrastructure companies to sell their goods, they have to have a presence there as well.
India's nationalist policies are working well for them because they are a growing nation. There is so much stuff to be done and sold there that it is worthwhile for companies to locate jobs there. Nationalist policies often work for rapidly growing countries because it keeps money in the country. However, once that nation is mature, those companies and the jobs they brought will leave just as quickly as they came. This is why nationalism does not work in a world where it is easy to move resources around, or in a matured nation that is in a state of continuation rather than development.
This is also why nationalist policies will not solve our outsourcing "problem." There really is no solution because we cannot control what is going on in other nations. The best we can do is do what we've always done - persevere. I've been fortunate enough to keep my job even though I can definitely see my job going to India in the next 24-36 months. I will have to get another one, which is why I am training for it now and not later.
This really is a sink or swim situation, and the choice lies with each individual. One cannot be dead-set on a specific job at a minimum rate of compensation. If you are flexible, willing to learn a new profession, and willing to relocate, you will be able to find employment. The jobs are out there. The unemployment rate has been falling steadily since the post-9/11 peak, and is lower now than it was for the first 4 years of Clinton's presidency. Historically, the unemployment rate has fallen in between 5 and 7%, which occasional excursions outside that range both above and below. Right now it is 5.4%.
What we're seeing is a shift away from technology jobs because that period of growth is over. The explosion of the Internet is what gave us the first period of prosperity, and now we're in a period of continuation. Time to find something else to do.
http://www.davidgillforcongress.com/bio.htm
Who is Dr. David Gill?
David Gill is not a career politician. He is a 44-year old Emergency Room doctor from Clinton, IL. He is running for the U.S. House as a concerned citizen who sees an urgent need for a change in Washington D.C.
He grew up near Chicago and attended the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urban for both college and medical school. With the exception of a 3-year residency training program in Iowa, David has lived in Central Illinois for the last 25 years.
David lives in Clinton with his wife of 17 years, Polly. They have 3 beautiful children: Louis, Tally and Holden. A family dog and cat add excitement to the household.
In addition to working in the Emergency Room, Dr. Gill is Medical Director of the E.R. and serves as president of the Board of Directors of John Warner Hospital.
In his off time, he volunteers for Planned Parenthood of East Central Illinois, runs a men's social club at the DeWitt County Nursing Home and coaches youth sports in town. When he gets a chance, Dr. Gill loves to substitute teach.
Because I know, when I think of high-tech jobs that require a bachelors in CS, I think of call center jobs.
WTF? Over?
In Soviet Russia, the motherland outsources you!
Funny, I've lived in Canada my whole life and I don't think I've ever heard someone say "hoser" in conversation. Maybe it's an east coast/west coast thing?
The "aboot" thing is an exagerated form of a mostly (to my ears) east coast accent. No one in Canada actually says "aboot", despite American meme. There's a great writeup about Eh at Wikipedia. The stereotypical use of "eh" prevalent in humour is more common in rural settings, but we all proudly say the interjection.
My religion forbids the use of sigs.
Let's just hope Canada outsources these jobs back to US. What goes around comes around, right?
just my 2 bytes
Closing a tax loop hole for outsourced call centers barely affects the biggest draw to outsource. A customer support rep in India or the Phillipines is payed 10% or less than his American counterpart. Only the growing wealth of the developing world will shrink that gap. Not changes to the US tax code.
With a Canadian base, the outsourcer opens an office in the same time zone, and staffs a call center and maintenance team there.
Evil, but elegant.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
If you are a free marketeer, this shouldn't bother you because it's simply a widening of the competitive market for labor to international levels. If US employees and laws cannot be competitive, maybe it behooves us to help bring the rest of the world up closer to our standard of living so that they won't so easily undercut us.
On the other hand, if you're a bleeding-heart internationalist, what's wrong with people from India or whatever country doing these jobs? If they can (in Dell's case) learn english to a degree that they are indistinguishable from cust svc people in the US, what's the problem? They can use the US$ far more than we can here.
-Styopa
I thought this was an intellectual site. Does slashdot really think the outsourcing problem is caused by "tax loopholes"? Really? Which ones? I thought the problem was that Indians were willing to work for ten cents an hour. If I'm right, and Kerry's wrong, do we really need someone so clueless in the White House?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well it is not so much that we (Canadians) got stronger dollar, but more that GW Bush, is destroying the American economy and weakening the US greenback.
So I guess that I have one thing to thank GW for. Cheaper hi-tech toys...
I live and work in Toronto. From my experience, Canada is not the final destination for many US jobs. It is a backdoor to the backdoor type of thing. I think the only reason they are setting up shop in Canada is to DECEIVE. If they are setting up shop in Canada then how come the job growth sucks a$$ ????. The LOW....LOw....Low...low paying IT jobs up here in canada might be one of the reasons, but I think they are just renting office space, hiring a few *fake* enterpreneurs* and re-routing the projects back to india, where compared to the Canadian IT market it is slightly cheaper.
The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
Posting AC to not karma whore. I'm a senior IT manager and get invited to alot of IT conferences. I'm against outsourcing though, so this conference rubs me the wrong way. I'd love to see some protesting of this event! E-mail posted below:
_ form.html
e mail:tom.mannix@gartner.com
--------------------
Dear Colleague,
Gartner is organizing a conference in the beginning of November focused solely on offshore sourcing called the Gartner Global Sourcing Summit. For three days (Nov. 7-9, 2004), attendees will gather in Bonita Springs, Florida to participate in sessions and closed-door meetings led by the top Gartner offshore analysts. The participants will be CIO, Sourcing Officers and VPs leading the offshore efforts in their respective organizations.
Participation in this event is by private invitation only as well as all-expenses paid. Our pre-selected audience, determined to have specific outsourcing needs, ensures the most useful and applicable content will be presented at this event making the most of your time away from the office.
Additionally, the event will not allow press onsite to ensure a free exchange of ideas and conversation.
The event happens just a week after the presidential election and our speaker, Michael Treacy, will address the implications of the outcome on the outsourcing industry opening night surely sparking some interesting discussions. Please contact me at your earliest to discuss securing your participation or complete the following interst form: http://www.globalsourcingsummit.com/qualification
Best Regards,
Tom Mannix
Director
Gartner Vision Events
10 Corporate Drive
Bedford, NH 03110
direct:603-471-4235
mobile:603-305-1726
Gartner
insight for the connected world
www.globalsourcingsummit.com
Sadly, most, if not all, of the companies that provide outsourcing services in India and elsewhere tend produce substandard code. Yeah, they code like banshees- but the results are far from optimal. This is from personal experience, working as a contractor within a large multinational corporation.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
What are you smoking? Yes, Canada is friendlier and the way to get a Work Permit is a lot easier than doing this in the US, but "easier" doesn't mean they just roll over.
I am currently sitting here for almost 2 months waiting for my new Work Permit and the last update I got was that HRDC (who has to approve the job) is still fiddeling around with the paperwork.
Mind you, I am going to move from Toronto to Edmonton, a place where "talent" if you want to call it that, is a bit more scarce, but the point is that it costs companies money and a lot of time to hire foreigners, and I am not even Indian, I have a German passport.
The company has to proof for ANY employee they are hiring that is not landed or a citizen of Canada that they couldn't find a person who was. This takes (depending on the market) 4 - 8 weeks and a LOT of paperwork (Who else did they try to hire, how did they advertise the job etc. etc.).
So even if they have "indian" guys sitting there, those are most likely already landed immigrants or Canadian Citizens, especially Toronto has a large Indian / South East Asian population.
Not likely, the company would have to proof that every person they bring over from India HAS to be brought into the country because they couldn't find anyone local, and believe me HRDC in Toronto is nasty to deal with, I know, I did a couple of times.
What is more likely to happen is that they have some people here in Toronto who then delegate the work to the Indian Headoffice but that in and on itself isn't that bad in Canada, because the Canadian Subsidiary gets paid on the contract and pays it's taxes still in Canada.
Also, people on a Work Permit have to be paid "comparable wages", so you cannot simply hire an indian for 10% of what the Canadian would make AND unlike the US H1B the Work Permit belongs to ME not the Company, if I want to leave I can, I just have to find another company who wants to do the HRDC portion again, and the old company would never even know.
It takes around 2 1/2 years to get your landed papers, you have to apply in your country of Origin or (if you are already in Canada on a temporary permit) in Buffalo, after you have this paper in your hand it takes another 3 years before you can apply for Citizenship.
The Landed Status, btw, will cost you ~5K CAN, that includes language proficency tests, medical exams and a host of other things. 5K is a lot of dough for a dude in India.
The T1 ONLY applies to Canadian Citizens, by the time the guy has this he has already been in Canada for at least 5 years, chances are pretty good that by then he has settled and the last thing on his mind is moving to the states.
Geez, tone down your fear a bit, will ya?
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
or it might even move back to USA after y'all make a painful adjustment and decide to work for $30,000 instead of $40,000
You must be from southern India.
Got any Lynard Skynard CD's you want to trade?
>India Outsourcers Find Back Door in Canada Who's this "Canada" chick and how do I get a date with her? Seriously though, is she hot?
So the reason American labor is so expensive is because we tax it to death? Pavon asserts the Kerry plan is to eliminate this "loophole":
pay taxes only in the foreign country on their foreign operations, but at the same time, they get deductions in their US taxes, even though there is no double taxation.
and that
both the bullet point, and detail plans currently on the John Kerry site are fairly vague.
They would have to be vauge, as the only way to equalize the cost would be to tax the hell out of US companies with foreign workers. It's not so much closing a loophole as it is an increase in taxes that will make the US less competitive than it already is.
Sure, I'm disgusted by talk of "thanks for our best year ever" followed by "we have to tighten our belts and you are fired." I'm convinced, however, that the soloution is closing loopholes in personal income so that you can reduce the kinds of corporate taxes that serve as a disincentive to hiring people. I don't see either candidate addressing the issue honestly, but I can be sure that Kerry will make things worse than Bush will.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The reason it is advantageous to outsource to a Canadian call center (and I am differentiation this from an Indian call center on Canadian soil) is not the money. Although I will grant that the money savings are decent, the real benefit is the simple fact that we are Canadians, and no-one apologises like a Canadian.
We continuously get questions from Head Office (no names, unfortunately), asking why our quality scores are so good, and it's simply the fact that the Canadian Politeness "myth" has enough fact in it to make the difference.
It is a sink or swim situation. However, when the ship suddenly plunges, it's difficult to avoid being sucked in. Your wages, your job, are dependant not just on your abilities and efforts, bu the state of the entire (in this case) American economy. Being a good mechanical engineer on the Titanic probably didn't help so much when the ship hit the iceberg.
As many people have said on Slashdot, and on more academic boards, the entire point of outsourcing is to lower labor costs. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing more. A capitalist system exists primarily to generate a return to those who own the capital. Cutting labor costs increases the capitalists returns. No, I'm not speaking from any Marxist point of view here. Read Adam Smith.
India's policies work do to the low pay of their workers. Nothing more. Not a policy choice, but a cheap labor force due to a massive and desparate population. So, do you really think American workers can compete against about two billion Indian and Chinese workers? The only way we can do that is to have our own wages plunge to a level that would be difficult for most American's to imagine.
As wages fall for workers facing international competition, wages fall in other fields. Think of this: if the automobile factory closes the next town over, business probably won't be that good. When we combine outsourcing with a taxation system that encourages the concentration of wealth, we can foresee serious structural problems in the American economy. I've tried to think of a simple way to explain this - maybe the greatest evidence is the fact that American real wages have been flat for thirty years, despite incredible increases in productivity.
Jobs are out there - but job quality, measured in wages and in hours, is falling. If your job is outsourced, its unlikely - and against economic theory - that you'll be able to find an equivalent job in the same field and roughly the same locale for the same wage. And as the Democrat's have been happily pointing out, the new jobs being created pay far lower than the ones lost.
Other employers understand outsourcing, and they'll be happy to give you a lower offer. Of course, your bank doesn't care about outsourcing and your mortgage stays the same. So does your health insurance, children's tuition, etc. So your in serious trouble.
I have a question for all of our fun Libertarian economists on /. If immigration to the US averages about 200,000 per month, and the Administration claims that 1.7 million jobs were created in the last four years, how many new jobs were available for the native population? Guys, unemployment statistics are easily manipulated. I'd recommend you visit the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and, well, read between the lines. Alos, please consider that unemployment statistics only count those who are receiving unemployment benefits. Once you've exhausted your six months, you're no longer unemployed, you become a "discouraged worker." Off the roles, out of thought. Same thing occurs if you take a low wage job - say go from being a chip designer to a chif fryer. Still counts as a job.
I have to say this: The government of the United States exists to protect the welfare of the American people, not to protect the welfare of the wealthiest American's bank accounts. And the two are not one and the same.
/* Dang, I can't type that well. */
Ah no, my friend, you are not so lucky. By law, the Indian that are hired by Canadian companies will have to also speak French. Because the people at the help desk don't really understand English, they won't know the difference between French and English scripts and will read from them at random.
Now you might think that this would just cut your chances of getting help by one half, but you would be wrong. No only will the French reading be incomprehensible, the English reading will be harder to understand than ever because the reader will confuse the accents they are supposed to use and a new language will be born, FrIngligsh. It will sound like a cross between Ghandi and Savoir Faire but will contain very few words of any language.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I wish the Yankees among us could learn proper use of "y'all". It is the PLURAL of "you".
You do NOT say "Y'all" to a single person.
No more than you use "yermominem" to a group. "How's yermominem?" is only used to address a single person....
Note for those who have never lived in N'Awlins: "yermominem" is how we say "your Mom and them". It is normally used in an inquiry into the health and well-being of one's family....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
20,000 a year in India (an attorney, doctor, or Senior Programmer salary) will get you the exact same standard of living as 100,000 annually here. Mumbai(Bombay) has a boat load more people living in it then New York but yet an apartment is the equivalent of $300 american dollars a month. Please don't be fooled by these three things anymore:
a il 007.asp?article_id=1669
1) The claim that Indians are cheap labor
2) The claim that indians are smarter then Americans
3) The claim that Americans are lazy and greedy
People usually get fooled by one of those three things. Even developers are fooled. Here are the counter arguements
1') Indians are not cheap labor, they live like Americans for about 1/5th the money because the rupee is 1/5th the value of the american dollar. The bank of India makes sure that it stays that way just because of IT. See
http://www.siliconindia.com/magazine/displaydet
2') Whatever! Indians are as good as but not better then American developers in everything that doesn't involve innovative solutions, at best. For instance, why don't I see any Indian names on Open Source material? Americans and Europeans develop Open Source in their spare time! If the arguement against this is that Indians want to be paid for what they do then see (3'). Also any American Developer that has trained Indians to take their job knows this all too well. Its the $45,000 a year Indians that send money home to their parents that are killing americans. That 5k-10k that they send home a year is like sending $25-$50k to your American parents. Can you imagine sending your parents 50k a year? WTF.
3') This is bullshit. Americans work longer hours then anyone on the globe. We love money but it shouldn't be called greed if you take the risk/work for your money. If our dollar was equal to the rupee value there would be no contest. Also, why aren't Indians writing The majority of Open Source then? Why is it so little even though IBM and others spend millions to try to get Open Source more popular in India?
The sad news is, nothing will change until the Rupee is brought up in value, and the RBI (bank of India) wont allow it. They buy American Dollars whenever the value of the Rupee goes up and this keeps the Rupee low.
Ok, I guess that's a start...
But at the company I work for (/^$/) we have kept the helpdesk (entry level) positions and sent the developer jobs offshore. I used to be a developer, I was afraid that I'd get confused in the mornings if I moved to another company - so I'm working the helpdesk now. I didn't have to take a cut in pay so I guess there is a silver lining - but I miss my old buds who have all monstered out to places that still code onshore. And I have some unexpected results to modification requests.
Nor any finincial responsibilities other than yourself. I spent two years between "real jobs" and had to work two or three minumum wage jobs just to make ends meet and help keep my child and my wife fed and in shelter. It's not laziness- it's a staggering economy. Right now I'm back to work in IT, doing what I love (software design). But it was much harder to find work now than it was the last time I was out of work (right out of college, 5 years ago). The main problem I had looking for IT work is that I was over-qualified (I'm working aan entry level job right now. I had to convince my current employers that yes, I wanted to do this even though it was lower than my level of experience because finding a job as a lead programmer was taking way too long.) Bigger and better things my ass. It's only bigger and better if it's still ours to achieve. If the jobs are over seas than there is nothing bigger or better.
click me
I think the fact that it is Canada DOES make a difference because it allows us to compete more evenly.
No one is saying that the work in India is better than what is being done here. The primary reason it is being done is that the cost of labor in India is 1/10 of the cost of labor in the USA. We can innovate all we want, but we're not going to save 90% of our costs (and if we do come up with such an innovation, it will be used in India next week to cut their costs by 90%!).
The problem is magnified in that by sending those dollars to India, since their wage scale is so much lower than ours, it is very unlikely that they will be buying goods made here. They just can't afford it.
In contrast, if Canada is at 90% the wages of the US, that allows us to compete better. Some competition is good, but when your competitor brings a nuclear bomb to a knife fight, that's no competition.
And money spent in Canada is far more likely to be re-spent in the USA. Canada is closer, we trade more with them, and they can afford our goods.
Remember, a dollar spent locally is more likely to stay local than one spent halfway across the globe to a trading partner that is only taking your dollars, not sending them back.
The other key thing to remember is that is a lot easier for the average US citizen to trade with Canada. The cultures are similar, the languages are similar. It is FAR more likely that trading with India will be done by large multinational corporations. That's no accident. They want it that way -- it limits their competition.
And that's the danger of globalization -- it gives corporations much, much, much more power than they had in the past. There is no global government to monitor them, there is no way for workers to exercise leverage on them via unions, they can just run roughshod over us in the race to the bottom.
Just because you think you're right doesn't mean the other guy is "not capable of understanding more complex thought patterns". Perhaps "not capable of understanding MY thought patterns" is more like it.
Wow. Nice argument. You would rather the building that Satyam houses stay empty or worse remain a grassland (or snowland). The maintenance and other management activities that employ local canadian business are ignored in your argument.
Everything that changes the status quo is good - thats what the govt of Canada thinks. If you are bringing in new business - even if you are going to import 80% of your workforce, it is still good because you are somehow impacting the local economy which is otherwise moribund.
If Kerry wants us to get our drugs from Canada then Canada's going to need some cheap labor in order to provide the massive amounts of drugs that will be needed without driving the costs up.
...is it just me or does it seem like most people are lacking a basic economics course? People...look at the laws of supply and demand! Big government just screws it all up and doesn't end up helping anyone for long.
I've been wondering as I've watched John Kerry's commercials, what tax loophole is he talking about? Also, in what year was the loophole created and who voted for it?
Just wondering...
Over the past few years 300,000 US jobs have been outsourced. But over two million (2,000,000 is greater then 300,000) jobs have disappeared due to automation! (Forrester Research). So play with the tax codes all you want, we've got to have people educated enough (and flexible enough) to create new sources of wealth
It's the machines you have to watch out for. Remember 'Terminator'? That computer you reading this on, it wants your job.
We all know CEO's don't do much, other than try and look good.
Only somebody with no real idea of what goes on in a large organization would say that CEO's don't do much.
You're one of those people who actually believes a Dilbert cartoon is representative of reality, aren't you.
Which is ironic since English is descended
from Proto-Indo-European (Sanskrit) via
High German and Latin.
Why do H1B's in America get paid less than their native counterparts? Because companies could get away with it?
If you want a car made in the USA, you buy from a japanese company, if you by from a US company, you get one made in mexico.
I don't read AC A human right
Funny, Toronto hasn't exploded into a 3rd world hellhole. I'm still here in Canuckistan. Whaddaya know? Balkanisation doesn't ruin the country, so long as everyone's law abiding and decent to each other and knows enough English to get by.
Is there a written contract somewhere that says Slashdot is obliged to provide you with the drivel that you want because other issues are more important to you?
No, I didn't think so.
If you're a paying subscriber, is there anything in the terms of the contract that says Rob has to provide you 1337 Shadow, with the crap that you want, or that you are forced to continue the subscription?
No, I didn't think so.
Don't like it, go somewhere else.
Bye.
Original post:
"Exports will go up, but profit will go down, meaning more jobs outsourced to get more profit, and down the downward spiral our economy goes!"
But not quite:
You missed the fact that once the value of the dollar goes down, there will be nothing profitable about outsourcing. Looks like you fell for the phb keyword trap. "Outsourcing" != profit. Rather "Outsourcing to a country with a skilled labor force that has a lower cost of living" ~ profit ( ~ sometimes equal). So it won't be a downward spiral.
It could be embarassing seeing him saying how great Canada's
burritos and Corona are after he conquers Mexico.
Would that be more or less embarrassing than when Dan Quayle was heading for Latin America and mentioned that he needed to brush up on his Latin?
These Republicans need to learn the ways of these other countries and have a little respect for their cultures before they bomb them to oblivion.
I don't care about Kerry's record. I have seen too many atrocities on television now for me to worry about the freaking paperwork.
What is worse, passing a bill about medicare that someone doesn't like, or carpet bombing two city blocks because they think that a bad guy is there?
Yeah, show me all the paperwork you want.
Bush says "retrain," which logically amounts to "there is no problem, just deal with things yourself." Kerry says "I will close the loophole" as if to imply "I think outsourcing is a problem and I am taking steps to stop it." But this is not true.
Closing the loophole will make outsourcing slightly less profitable. But it will still be profitable. Kerry's plan will not even slow the trend down. This is not a means of representing the working class, but rather, pretending to represent the working class by slightly ruffling the feathers of the current outsourcers.
Neither candidate actually represents the interest of the majority on this issue.
Yes, Canada is already in an Axis.
Hmmm. Don't like after-the-purchase EULAs the UCITA enforces interfering with your ability to examine code? Worried about the Patriot act leading you to be investigated because of your opinions or curiosity? (note: happened to friend of mine). Concerned with Microsoft OS security flaws in eVoting? Dislike the broken U.S. patent system? Don't like the DMCA forbidding what you can and cannot release? Want a good anti-spam law, or at least the existing laws to be enforced (or not?) Here's a clue: these are all LAWS. LAWS are approved by various Representatives we colloquilly call POLITICIANS. Selecting the most acceptable Politicians is called Politics.
Maybe it was true 20 years ago that Nerd-type news could safely ignore politics. But not today. Why? Because we nerds collectively create a lot of money, and where money is involved, there will be a lot of businessmen pushing and shoving, power plays, and even less savory things that require our attention, unless we want to be steamrolled.
Oh, but you are not really upset about Politics per se. It's really that Slashdot allows people of any opinion to post. In this very discussion, I've read several Libertarian viewpoints, some Democratic, some Republican, a number of foreigners, and one that might be considered too socialist to be Green. This obviously disturbs you. Like most US conservatives these days, you are obviously more comfortable with the "Shut up Shut up Shut up Cut His Mike" style of GOP cable news in the U.S., so anything that doesn't censor opinions you disagree with must be, perforce, "Bias". You want validation, dammit!
In truth, you're right: Taco is "biased". He's given a substantial media platform to third party candidates far disproportionate to their ability to ever get them implemented. He seems positively enamored with Libertarians. That's ok. I'm not whining. I like having my views challenged. Enjoying intellectual discourse is part of being a "Nerd".
and neither will Bush (if he wanted to). The why is very simple. Any closing of these loopholes will have to go through Congress which as everyone knows is a corporate lobbyist's playground.
Setting up overseas centers is not cheap, as the company I work for is finding out and this loophole has no chance of being closed until costs of opening the centers has been recouped. As long as there is money to be "donated" to House and Senate, they will get their money back on their investments. Regardless of Kerry's intentions.
Well, I guess since you live in a land of 350 million immigrants, that there is no way you could have possibly spoken to someone who was not lilly white, and english speaking, right? I suppose if you walk into two stores in a row, and are served by Chinese counter staff, then you must have walked to China, without knowing?
You are a great example of the idiocy and racism that is rampant in the US. You hear about outsourcing, and the first time you speak to two non-white/english second language speakers you are a victim of outsourcing. "The bastards couldn't understand me, I don't get it, fire them all, boycot this, never buy that". I speak perfect, correct English. I do not understand lots of what many Americans say. Many of you (although not specifically many who would be reading here) sound like you are talking with a mouth full of marbles. You shorten and abbreviate everything, you mix in TONS of local slang and some have extreamly heavy regional accents. If English isn't your mother tounge, and you only know PROPER english, local variations, can be really tough. I am a Canadian, I took french in school for years (English is my first language), but whenever I went to Quebec, I could not understand anything that was said. Why? Because we were all taught proper, Parisian french, and most Quebecers speak a butchered, bastardized version.
Here is a suggestion for you. If you want to keep money/jobs in the US, then find ETHICAL companies, and shop there. Stop going to WalMart, who sell almost nothing manufactured in the US. Sure, you will no longer get the absolute lowest price, but you may save a job. Find out who outsources, and vote with your wallet. But, if you want to go bargain shopping, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT OUTSOURCING, YOU JUST SUPPORTED IT. Further, you justified it too. Yousale gets added up, with all the other, and guess what? The boss likes it! "Look, sales are up, costs are down, the sheep are complaining, but they can not pass up a good deal! Ha! Send another thousand offshore, why not, we will make even MORE money!"
Even if Kerry were to close a tax loophole, is he going to force those other countries to start charging more money? Loophole or not, someone in India that will do for $30K/year what a U.S. worker wouldn't touch for less than twice that amount still amounts to lower costs for outsourcing.
If you submitted that, it would have been incorrectly quoted anyway. There is no single-quote in English; you have a couple of misplaced apostrophes. I'm also going to have to cite you for misuse of the Right Single Quotation Mark Unicode character (') in place of an apostrophe (', unicode and ASCII) on that posessive noun. Damn computer geeks... *grumble* *grumble*
(P.S. It's funny -- laugh!)
Thats too bad for the Canadians I guess, half my friends work at an inbound call center to pay for thier tuition. Whats more it is called YAC, they always use the acronym cause Young America Canada doesn't make much sense
In any case, when someone asks where they are they have to reply that they are in Minnisota.
History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it - Sir Winston Churchill
By out-sourcing our knowledge workers and high-tech component production, we're giving away our cutting edge high tech knowledge, control over production capability, and our incentive to learn high tech skills. We are going to feel the effects of this in the coming generations. I've already spoken with a number of people who are changing their high tech related college majors to something else (like Accounting) because of it.
I didn't graduate from college and build up several thousand dollars in debt in student loans to punch rivets into sheet metal all day for my career.
Furture Quote From GW on This Topic
"By golly we gave the Indians all those casinos. What more do they want....?"
Minor nitpick--there are only about 800,000 legal immigrants to the U.S. each year, plus another 300,000 or so "unofficial" immigrants. That total is closer to 100,000 per month.
Also, not all of those people came to the United States and immediately took jobs. An immigrant who brings a non-working spouse or children fills one job, not four. The total number of employment-based immigrants (skilled workers, mostly) is only about 140,000 per year (a shade more than ten thousand per month).
It should be noted that Canada--a country a tenth the size of the United States--admits roughly the same number of skilled immigrants each year as the U.S. Curiously, there seems to be relatively little whinging up there about Indian immigrants "stealing" skilled jobs. Perhaps the problem in the States isn't immigration, but rather a massive mishandling of economic and trade policy...?
~Idarubicin
Shhhh, you might destroy the carefully crafted propaganda about Canada having "lax immigration laws" that plays so well for right wing types in both countries!
In response to: The US has two free trade agreements with Canada, so get used to finding out what agreements Canada has with other nations..they will quickly become agreements with the US by transitivity.
...... "We can not let these transvestights from Cannid da effect our strong economy hear at home."
-GWB, President-
If anyone is wondering, the tax code says you only pay the local country's taxes on profits if they are kept and re-invested in the country where they're made. This of course has nothing to do with paying a foreign company to do work for you. Trying to tax foreign commerce will just make U.S. companies unable to compete in those countries as they will be double taxed compared to other companies in the same market.
Everyone complains about companies outsourcing, but has anyone ever see any actual studies on Insourcing vs. Outsourcing? From my browsing around it looks to me like it's actually more beneficial to the economy.
We insource a LOT more than we outsource: "The U.S. Department of Commerce reports that, in 2003, the United States bought $77.38 billion in services from foreign countries and sold $131.01 billion to them" and "according to the McKinsey Global Institute, for every $1 outsourced, the economic gain to the United States as a whole is $1.12 to $1.14"
Can anyone find a link with some good info on the evils of outsourcing?
quoted text from: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/
New tastes for the masses...
Maple Curry Moose,
Goose kababs,
mmm, good food...
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
So Kerry is going to close that pesky tax loophole that allows indian and other workers to get paid a fraction of what US workers make?
The reason outsourcing is profitable is because workers are willing to work for a lower wage outside the U.S. That's not a tax loophole.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
... so many north americans think they are somehow entitled to being able to drive a new car every two years, to have a 2000 sq ft suburban house, have a huge TV, and to take a vacation every year.
Grow UP. Work for cheaper. It's not the end of the world. There's a lot of living you can do with out making oodles of cash.
L
25% of goods exported from the USA end up in Canada. 87% of all goods exported from Canada end up in the USA. Canada supplies more Oil to the USA than Saudi Arabia. Canada has much more in common with the USA than other countries do including a shared history. Why am I pointing this out? I want to know why both Canadians and Americans are so bent on poisoning this relationship by doing short sighted attacks on things such as near shoring? Yes, look after your own interests but keep in perspective that by poisoning this relationship you could end up killing the goose that laid the golden eggs for want of a better example. There is free flow of trade and expertise in North America. Canadians can and do work in software in the USA. The same can be said for Americans. Both countries programmers can and do earn decent wages in both countries.
Only if you think it's hard to understand impeccable upper-class-y Oxford english. Indians with college education (many call center workers are actual college students or recent graduates) are actually easier to understand than, say, those fat mamas on Wal-mart commercials, with their deep southern thang.
Now, if we were talking about orientals in call centers you'd have a point... so if call centers were to move to, say, Shanghai, that'd be quite something. :-)
Actually, if americans objectively evaluated health care options, they would realize the same thing as other industrial countries have: universal goverment-financed health-care system is more efficient and affordable for nations as whole, than either semi- or fully private system (like one US has). And this without individuals losing anything: currently HMOs have most power, not patients. This is how eastern european countries (with less than half the income of americans) have decent health care system, whereas too many americans struggle with medical bancrupties.
And why would they realize this? Because overall, americans pay TWICE as much PER CAPITA than, say, swedes, even though health care coverage is much less extensive, and average quality of health care (for those that are covered) is comparable.
Unfortunately americans have been "educated" with the "fact" that private sector is always better, no matter what. That's why there are so many people who push for school vouchers, and try to find that one single canadian author who claims their system sucks (compared to dozens who claim the opposite). I'm still waiting for US to banish government own and run army, and contacting it out to the lowest bidder.
About once a month I get a phone from the MIT alumni organization asking for more contributions. Almost all the callers are young women with south Asian accents. I cant say what country these people are located in, but pretty much know where the HQ is at.
On the positive side, MIT cuts overhead costs of fund raising.
On the negative side, obvious outsourcing rankles some of the alumni I've talked to, because their positions are under the outsourcing cloud too.
MIT also outsources the webification of its famous OpenCourseWare to south Asia. The preliminary materials are submitted in various forms by profs and TAs and polished up by the outsource company.
You haven't heard of Compassionate Conservatism, have you?
/08/20040803-11.html)
George W. Bush on August 3, 2004, at a Knights of Columbus convention in Dallas, Texas(http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004
For a broader list, check out http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/compassionate/ and http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/achievement/chap 13.html, which contains highlights such as the following:
The large majority of companies that operate in Canada are American. The majority of goods and services they produce are not for Canadians, but for export (almost all to the United States).
This move by Satyam is like a drop in the Great Lakes. The IBMs, Suns, Ciscos, GEs, Lucents, Dells, Phizers, Duponts, HPs, M$, etc have been operating in Canada for ages and "outsourcing" before the term was even invented.
What's so wrong about people seeking work that pays better than what they had originally?
That's not the issue. You know it.
Just because they're of a different ethnicity than you, or they speak a different language, you think we should forbid them from coming here to work?
They aren't coming here to work. They're manning call centers in India. The only difference is that they've gone multi-national and are using Canadian PR to front for them. Nobody here has a problem with indian workers having a better life. The problem is that our kids are going hungry as a result.
News flash: People are people, some of us had the fortune of being born and raised in stronger economical and freer political environments, but to act like it's wrong for a person to find a better job somewhere and for a company to hire that person is completely antithetical to what freedom and our capitalistic nation is all about.
Those people don't have the environmental regulations, the labor laws, the minimum wages, or any of the other things this 'capitalistic nation is all about'. When you can figure out how to level the playing field without further turning this nation into a wage slavery shit hole feel free to return and present your argument again. Otherwise, you are comparing apples to oranges and you know it.
:(
Actually, Proto-Indo-European predates Sanskrit by a helluva lot. Sanskrit, High German and Latin are indeed all related, but not exactly contemporaries, and definitely not a direct chain. Where did you pull that fact from? If it's from anywhere but your ass then please provide a source.
The only thing that will stop outsourcing is similar salaries. There's no way in hell that Kerry will force companies to pay larger salaries in foreign countries. He CAN NOT and will not stop outsourcing. Taxes are only a part of the issue. Good job to slashdot for shilling for Kerry as usual. Any other non-US residents want to influence the election?
Canada does have a huge unemployment problem. It's over 10% - ten percent! But no, we don't whine to much about immigration. Why? Most of our immigrants are skilled workers, not family class, and we're damn particular about the guys we accept ("Oh, only 10 years as a doctor, not 15? Sorry, you're not good enough to drive our cabs.") Americans like to think they attract the best and the brightest, and you do get some real hotshots, but the truth is you get far more dirt-poor latin americans than anything else. So the lowest wage jobs are more protected in Canada... you don't need to speak Spanish to hire contractors for instance. And Canada has one serious unfair adavantage - Alberta. The province's economy is booming because of the oil work/development. I got an offer from a head hunter to fly out to Calgary for a tech support job with Imperial Oil paying 60k/yr. Yes, they would pay for the flight and accomodation, even interview me on the weekend (turned it down though cause it's, well, Calgary, and I'm pretty happy where I am). For over a decade people who wanted work but couldn't find it in economically depressed regions moved to the prairies and found good pay fast. Those not so desperate sit home and have their needs looked after by the government, basically living off of all those skilled immigrants and the economically stronger parts of the country. Canada's economy isn't the best in the world but I wouldn't trade my country for anywhere else. And btw Americans (and Commonwealthers)... we've got a lot of free space here, if you're skilled and willing to (say that you'll) work, you could probably start anew here.
Oh well, I guess "we" Canucks really can't stand that Texan swagger.
free speach
Did you mean: free speech
You need to read the history yourself. Foreigners were used at the end cycle of the empire, when it was blatantly obvious there wasn't enough "pure romans" to build an entire army.
First, I'd like to point out that plugging John Kerry over Bush - or the three minor party candidates - is absolutely unbiased and a disgusting show of partisanship on the part of this samspenus guy.
More importantly - ignoring for a moment that John eFfin Kerry can't be trusted - International trade law prohibits governments from 'closing tax loopholes' which allow foreign companies a competitive advantage in a given country. It would only be a matter of time before India hits the world court and sues the US and Canada for access to our markets. As well they should. People need to stop fearing the notion of global trade, and gear up to be competitive in it.
Looks like a stupid american to me.
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
There are two problems with Senator Kerry's promise:
1. The tax loophole he wants to close doesn't exist.
2. Outsourcing is more than balanced by insourcing, and it's the cost savings from outsourcing that are driving that. And before you spout something about the quality of the insourced jobs, they pay far more than the national average.
In short, in this as in so many other things, Kerry is just lying to try to fool stupid people into voting for him.
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and your point is??
then you should be able to understand Hindi, Afgan, Farsi, Tajik, Spanish, Italian, English, Portugese, Romanian, Latin, French, Dutch, etc..
all are the same right?? Indo-European is a BIG family..
yeah.. the US has been trying to get countries in Latin America to "open their markets" to american products.. Does the US open its markets to Latin America ?? No way!
Free trade is all about ramming down your products and melting local economies so they depend on you instead of producing their own, thereby limiting their competitiveness. On the flipside, now some countries are getting smart and using the same so called "Free trade" to take american jobs.. do it better cheaper faster.. an now you pay attention.
Where have you been the last few decades? Too busy watching sitcoms and the Simpsons I guess to notice international news.
Yeah I suggest to those people that they should one day try to go through the "lax" process and see how they feel afterwards.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
It was a joke, I'm canadian, lighten up.
You want Ann Coulter. She scoffed at your scrawny pedophile body and your lame advances. Now to get back at her, you have become a flaming pedophile liberal hell bent on deconstructing the USA and subjecting us to the UN and George Soros. Prepare to die in Civil War!
Thank you, come again, eh?
nuff said.
click me
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
damn mods don't understand humor
Do you know what a useful idiot is? Lenin coined the term to refer to Communists who towed the party line no matter how outrageous it was, and gladly parroted propaganda because they didn't know any better. That is what you are, my friend, you are a useful idiot.
FACT: CONGRESS established the Department of Homeland Security - not Bush. Only congress can greate a cabinet, approve its appointments, and fund its operation. If you had a single clue about American government, you wouldn't even bother making moronic statements equating our Republic to the Reich.
Fact: Kerry is a confessed war criminal. After using his silver spoon billionare connections to get him into the naval officer corps, he sails on to do one tour aboard a boat nowhere near the coast of Viet Nam, and 2/3rds of a second tour on a river boat. His one and only combat action involved a violation of the geneva convention, wherein her mercilessly shot an un-uniformed enemy combatant who was fleeing. Cowardly enough, Kerry shot him in the back. Then, long before he had served his committment, Kerry used political favors to get an early discharge from the Navy into the Active Naval Reserve, where he was to attend 17 days of active duty and 42 drills at Bainbridge MD's Naval Reserve Center. Kerry never attended a single one. As an AWOL officer, Kerry illegally visited enemies of the United States, made disparaging statements about his chain of command, offered aid and comfort to enemies of America, and committed treason. Thats why a naval board convened in 1977 to discharge Kerry, and why Kerrys medals were revoked, only to be reissued in 1986 when Kerry became a Congressman.
Fact: Bush is protecting people from having a sexual orientation forced on them by activist judges who violate the Constitutional Separation of Powers and legislate from the bench. Again, if you had a clue about how government works in America, you'd have at least stated that differently.
Lastly, Kerry can't be trusted. He lies. He vascillates. He flip flops. You can't support kerry because the reasons you'd support him change from day to day. So kindly get bent, you useful idiot.
Erm...the unemployment rate in Canada right now is 7.1%. It hasn't been 10% since the recession in the early nineties.
People do not change their mind as rapidly and drastically as John Kerry, who has drastically altered positions on everything from "for" or "agianst" money for the troops, to whether he tossed "medals" or "ribbons" (neither of which should be confused). The bottom line is that kerry is vascillating flip-flopper who cannot be trusted to act according to principle, moral ethics, or simply strong belief. Instead, he acts according to the will of a plurality of his choosing, whether it be the voters in control group A, or the beauracrats at the UN.
Wrong again, tool-boy. Kerry said of his vote change that it was a "protest". He never changed his mind on the need to fund Iraq, what he did was use a vote on a bill he knew would pass in order to garner publicity. Is that what you want in a leader? Kerry gambled on vital funds for young men and women in need - body armor, armored humvees (which he later criticized Bush for not making sure the troops had already), bullets, medical equipment, extra pay, et al. That is what Kerry voted against, after voting for it. All for a political show.
John Kerry was never anywhere near the 'front lines' of Vietnam. He patrolled the lower Mekong delta is a boat for four months, and only took fire in one incident. The front lines were some 200 miles north of that point. Also, just to remind you, Kerry's one and only combat action was when he left his boat - something he's not supposed to do, particularly as the Officer in Charge - chased down a fleeing enemy, and shot him in the back in cold blood and in violation of the Rules of War. His act was less than honorable by any definition, and a War Crime under the rules of the Geneva Convention. I can't believe that your hatred for Bush is such that you'd consider a man like Kerry.
As for Bush's "non combat assignment" in the National Guard...who the fuck do you think patrolled our Airspace while the majority of US fighter/bomber capacity was in SE Asia and spread across Europe? There are ANG pilots on the Gulf Coast that saw more flight time than Vietname pilots. What you don't know (because you weren't even old enough to piss in your diaper) is that Cuban fighters (piloted by Russians in many cases) probed US airspace in the SE corridor once every three weeks. In three cases, Russian MIGs flew over US territory with full combat load.
This country now enjoys the lowest unemployment rate in a decade thanks to Bushs tax policy (5.4%), and real incomes are up (3.9% over last year). These are REAL incomes, not hyperinflated fluff jobs like what came of the dot-com era. So whatever economic troubles you might be having are your fault for not getting off your ass and ramping up your worthless job skills to be something more than a burger-flipping loser.
You are my hero! I am so excited about the future of India.
But please learn to write paragraphs.
fish and pipes