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Westerners Migrating to India for Jobs
shonagon53 writes "The BBC reports that quite a few young European tourists stick around in India to work for eSolutions companies who contract outsourced work from European companies. The salaries are mediocre, but you get free housing, great food, snacks à volonté and a free taxi ride to work each morning.
Is this the first wave of the much anticipated reverse-migration which will be a hallmark of the 21st century?"
So how does that work as far as work visas are concerned? Does the company also arrange for the correct visas or are the "tourists" technically working there illegally?
...so now I've got to listen to a European stoner when I call my bank :-(
I've worked in the U.S., Japan, and now Germany. In a few years time, I hope to move to India to work for a little while, then head back to Australia to do what I can to build up the national market for technology
Globalization is a reality, folks. You can either:
a) pretend it doesn't exist,
b) complain about it, or
c) live in it, as a globalist individual
I chose c). If big-corp's are gonna go multi-national, so am I. The days of stick-dwelling are over
Move or die.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Recently heard in downtown Mumbai: "Those damn foreigners are taking our jobs!!"
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
You are so wrong. I work as a manager in a "cheaper" country of "unskilled monkeys" who are actually well trained, speak several languages fluently, work normal hours, develop IP instead of just taking outsourced work, win international awards for interesting products (two so far) and in no way do the "button pushing" you refer to. Frankly anyone who thinks like you is in for a big big shock in the next ten years.
Where do i sign up? Last summer I was looking for a consulting position to liason between India and the States. No luck, and I'm sure the biggest part of my flopped idea was not reaching the right people in India - I went through Monster.com's listings for positions in India. Any suggestions on how I would reach organizations looking for ppl who would be willing to travel between the two countries?
The only PT Boat Journal on the web: http://www.PT171.org
Maybe they'll drive salaries up over there and they'll be forced to outsource the jobs to the U.S.
It's terribly biased, perhaps even racist to think that someone is unskilled just because he hails from a country like india.
IMO outsourcing is itself a marriage between the very technology that tech-jobs produce, and capitalist drive for maximum profits at minimum expense. The Internet has made telecommuting feasible, even across continents and as a result we end up with a rather unbalanced situation.
If anything, perhaps outsourcing will help the global economy attain a little bit more homogenity.
more jobs will be retained in the west for skilled personnel.
Like doctors, lawyers, radiologists, etc. all of whom are being outsourced as fast as middle management can complete the paperwork.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
It just seems like a bunch of 20-something "kids" who are backpacking around the world and trying to stay solvent. It hardly seems any different from the fact that every youth hostel I stayed in during a brief trip to Australia was also staffed (nearly 100%) with non-Australians. Oddly, there was fairly little outcry about the loss of hostel-desk-clerk-jobs to those damn Europeans.
I doubt they're making a huge dent in the overall world of outsourcing. Here in Canada more than 10% of the company where I work is people from outside of Canada, but that's not considered odd. Why would it be considered odd for there to be foreigners working in India? There's probably a lot going for those Indian cities. And has anyone ever eaten out in Switzerland? The food alone would motivate me to leave the country. I like cheese, sure, but come on - a whole meal consisting of cheese? No wonder all those Swiss kids are going to India.
True story:
A friend of mine, a Rwandese educated at Harvard, worked for a US legal firm. One day he was asked to go on a long-term mission to Nigeria for an oil firm client. He balked, quoting Nigeria's reputation for danger. He was offered a nice bonus, travel costs, and so he went. When I visited him in Lagos, he had installed himself in a nice house, with a cook, driver, security guards. He played golf twice a week, spent the weekends at the beach, and too many evenings at the clubs in Victoria Island.
Every few months he would return to head office, and make a report. His report would inevitably end with remarks about the insecurity in Lagos, the need for constant armed protection, the power cuts and the lack of facilities. Since his work was bringing in lots of money, his firm inevitably gave him a pay rise and extended his mission.
Expatriates tend to suffer from diseases of luxury. They don't pay taxes, their savings go 10-100 times further, they get privileged positions, and if good, they are valued for their expertise and cultural baggage.
The only problem: they tend to die divorced and alcoholic. Decadence is too cheap in some places!
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
We've been trying to outsource lawyers for ages. No one else wants 'em.
I've sugested on
I for one could go for a summerhouse in Kashmir.
As the article points out, raw salary isn't everything.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
How is it different now?
(I am in Canada, and I see no difference except that it's impossible to live on $10/month, so the salaries are higher.)
You can't handle the truth.
I'll go whereever there's work. I can't seem to get a break around here (houston), so I'm ready to go anywhere I can get a piece of the pie. As of late I've been wanting to get out of the US anyways, not soley due to the election.
You're nothing; like me.
Seriously... here is my resume
Jon Bardin
When I read Symbiosis on a stop-by at Kuala Lumpur Airport, see http://www.symbiosisonline.com/, I got the feeling that the Technology Park in KL is trying to attract Western Engineers by providing them with a luxurious working environment in regard to comfort, personal care and resources, even if the payment probably is mediocre. :-)
See also http://www.tpm.com.my/ .
If I had to choose between a stressful job/high payment and an offer from there, I could still easily be tempted to go to Malaysia
If each country is going to be good at something in the global market, and everyone is carving out their niche, I say let India be the land of cubicles and tech support. More power to em.
I also would like to make a call now to solidify our position as the world leader in strippers.
Government Subsidize Gold Poles NOW!
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Radiologists are getting outsourced because x-ray machines produce shitty images and there simply aren't enough radiologists being trained to meet demands in the US & Canada.
Invent a better x-ray machine and you could put radiologists out of business faster than you could break a leg.
Notice how dedicated radio operators have gone the way of the dodo? Telephone operators? People who add up bills manually? Some day radiologists will be in the same bucket as buggy whip manufacturers.
Most european countries have substantial socialist components to thier governments. This means that when these people quit working they'll have
-Free healthcare
-It won't be nearly as expensive (in most cases) for their children to attend university in europe
-In some countries, they'll be given a pension to live off of when they retire
In the U.S., things are a bit different. You have a retirement fund that you need to plug money into. You need to save for your kid's college education. You need health insurance. Now, you might be able to live quite well in India if work there, but the salary that you get is so small compared to what you recieve if you worked in the U.S., that you really won't be able to provide money for any of these things. I dunno, it might be a good experience for a couple of years, but as an American, I wouldn't plan on sticking around if I did it.
"The salaries are mediocre..."
But, more importantly, taxes are even lower. Most western "welfare states" or nations in general have marginal tax rates of 40% or higher. In Denmark (where I live), the marginal tax (before sales taxes) is 62%.
Gross wage is one thing, wage after the taxman has been in your paycheque is another thing entirely.
I'm not in the least surprised to hear that people are moving to India. The neverending meddling in our personal lives and property because of the state is just too much.
Aussies commonly take a year or two travel vacations during their lives. The popular ages are just after school and when the kids are gone.
Amerians are so hard up about working and consuming they miss the important things in life.
Radiologists are getting outsourced because x-ray machines produce shitty images and there simply aren't enough radiologists being trained to meet demands in the US & Canada.
There's no point in going to school for years if your job is going to be shipped blue-label to elsewhere. But that's okay, because we'll have 40,000% profits next quarter!
Oh, we have a nine-figure trade deficit? Ahh, what do those economists know? Probably paying them too much too.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Great..... And you could have done that back in the 80's, too. I'm talking the 1880's.
What you're talking about is NOT "Globalization". You've only been hitting the 1st world countries.
Globalization is about exploiting the 3rd world countries. Go and live there for a few years and see if your attitude doesn't change.
The article talks about very few foreigners coming to India and taking up jobs in call centres. Just one or two isolated incidents really dont show that people from europe are actually migrating to India. Also call centres dont offer too high pays as compared to the Indian IT companies and the work experience gained is also of little value. Also one doesnt know for how much time call centres will be around in India, so they are really thought of as temporary sources of income which mainly students use as a source of pocket money.
If they are coming here and taking our jobs and we are going there and taking theirs... why dont we just work in our own countries. Article doesnt make any sense or would more aptly be titled "Westerners who like to travel take temporary jobs while wandering." rather than reverse immigration.
I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
In Mexico (from my understanding), a foreigner must have a permit to work there. This is really ironic because Fox is pushing for more illegal workers in the USA.
Fight Spammers!
Even if 'the company' is supposed to take care of your visa, it pays to follow up on your own. This advice courtesy the guy who left Ecuador at the unpleasant end of a gun because the company he was working for FUCKED UP!.
In addition to Ecuador, I've worked in China, Japan, Phillipines, Fiji, Tonga, Hong Kong, and Singapore. I hired on outside the USA. Most friends who are working or have worked expat. have hired on outside their home country.
Want an overseas job, take a vacation, get to know the place, visit the company you want to work for. Hang out in the right bars.
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
The large corporation I work for is currently outsourcing all UK development to India.
One interesting facet is that people whose roles are being relocated to India have the option of joining the Indian company involved. Their role would still be in India, and so they would be based there, but they would keep their UK salary.
We're all currently discussing:
- how good your standard of living would be in India on a UK salary
- how long it would take for the Indian company to make you redundant (currently guess: 4 hours)
- what the Indian employment laws are like
All good fun,
~Cederic
This is a "work visa". Not citizenship.
The kids going over there are working for a salary and, eventually, will be sent back to their home country. It's easy to explain with two examples.
#1. Euro-kid goes to India and works for 2 years. He makes a "mediocre" wage (1/10th what he'd make back home). He banks it all and lives on cheap rice, curry and lentils. After 2 years he goes home with $X (or whatever his currency is). $X is 1/10 that he'd make in 2 years at home under the same conditions.
#2. Indian guy goes to the US and works for 2 years. He makes a "mediocre" wage for a US job (still 10x what he'd make back home). Banks it all, eats rice, curry and lentils. After 2 years he, goes home. He now has 10x the money he'd have after 2 years of working in India.
The effective difference is 100x between the two.
Work visas are only good for making money in a wealthy country and then going home to a poor country. They suck for working in a poor country and then going home to a wealthy country.
I've always been a nomad so that is no problem for me. The problem is more in little things like not being able to take my pets if I move to a different country. Most countries have some sort of period you have to leave your pets in quaratine which is usually long enough to make it somewhat cruel IMO.
Also moving personal items can be a pain. All my DVDs are from the US, England, and Japan. That is enough to make life hard without a region free DVD player. If I moved to more countries and bought more DVDs in each country it'd just make the problem harder? Things like region codes definately seem anti-globalization to me. Then you get into the trouble of moving a dozen computers and getting power adapaters for them all and stuff like that.
So.. if you plan to be nomadic outside the boundries of your home country then try not to have pets or a lot of stuff that'd be a pain to move.
On the other hand it's my experience that it isn't hard to pick up girls and take them with you. "Hey, I'm going to Thailand, Malaysia, and India next week.. wanna go with me." is one hell of a pick-up line. Maybe that makes it worthwhile to give up my cat and my computers?
What I think we really need is a tribe of nomads that migrate from country to country together and can make deals for our services as a group. A little geek tribe. Maybe we could legally make it a corporation to make it easier to work out deals.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
What is significant is that people are willing to relocate to a third world country inspite of all the general problems there like bad internet connectivity, bad roads, power problems etc.
:)
You haven't tried living out in rural England
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
With an influx of smart westerners how long do you think India will stay a third world country? They're getting all the jobs from those western countries while the best workers from the western countries flee to India in order to have jobs. If India plays this right they could easily become a world power while the arrogant western countries slowly slide down the tubes.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Right-O.
I'm certain that that expensive "Western"
college education that you borrowed money
to get can EASILY be paid off with the big
paycheck you're going to get from that Indian
IT company. And the storage company that you
trusted all of your worldly possessions with
will happily accept rupees, and a 1/10 of the
per month agreed to storage payment. Oh, and
God help you if you should get sick while over
there working in India -- most Western medical
plans will not cover your overseas "deployment".
(Well, you could rely on the herbal remedies
available locally -- just put enough money aside
to have your body shipped home to Mum and Pop.)
Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course the Filipinos don't suffer. They get a well paying job relative to other available work in the Phillipines. The one who suffers is you, as the people you put out of work will no longer be able to buy your product and you will go out of business.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Of course.. You can eat snacks.. Stock options are only useful for after-snacking :-)
...you obviously haven't been watching the USD lately.
Shoot Pixels, Not People!
...beyond work if you live a life as a "nomad"? That's crap! It's the 21st century man! Communications technology makes physical location nearly irrelevant. Many of my family members and friends travel extensively and have made good friends with fellow nomads all over the world. IM and email are good for keeping in touch--you should try using them sometimes. My girlfriend's brother met an Aussie nomad in Vancouver, now ehty arte engaged to be married in Australia. They both have friends and family on three continents. All my more nomadic friends manage to stay in touch and some even meet up several times a year--sometimes in locations that are neither person's "home"!
A nomadic lifestyle isn't for everyone, so if you prefer to put down roots somewhere there is always telecommuting--that is essentially what workers in India, Ireland, Canada and other outsourcing hotspots are doing for their parent companies anyways.
The Aussie is right--this is an era of globalisation and you'd better get used to it. It is sad that the US, a country historically known for its pioneering spirit and innovation, has become more whiny, inward-looking and reactionary than the average country with respect to immigration. The US got where it is today beause of immigration from all over the world. It seems selfish in this day and age to expect the rest of the world shouldn't be able to benefit from immigration as well.
Hey, if Darwin's theory works in nature expect it in the economy as well. The US will adapt or die. India and other developing nations have been closer to death and have simply started adapting faster. In the end it'll all even out--unless of course politics unduly interferes and fouls up the balance of things.
Hey, I know! Let's post a story about India just before all the Indians go to bed!
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I've dealt with bonehead programmers from India, bonehead programmers from Mexico, and bonehead programmers from Berkeley.
India does not have any monopoly on clueless newbies: Why, just look at how many we have here on /., most of whom are from the US :)
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
You work for your entire life, in exchange for some coins. On return to the US, you can put these worthless coins in a sock, to use as a club in defense of your shopping cart.
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
Here are some more information based on people I know:
I had 2 coworkers go back to their home country (China) because they find the opportunities are better there now. They both had green cards and stable employment here yet choose to go.
I had 1 coworker who wanted to leve computer programming field because be belived the reward to work ratio was too low compared to many other professions.
I know one guy who is in college and came with his parents and now has a green card. Yet the only computer science internship he could find was back in his home country for the summer.
Another person who became a citizen here had an offer from work to start offshore office in his home country at roughly the same salary as here. Otherwise he could stay here and travel a lot. He choose to stay here are the rest of his family is accustomed to living here.
I guess what we are seeing here is a kind of equilibrium mechanism. At one time all the good jobs were in the US (or "Western" contries in general) so there was a mad rush for people to get here. Now things have been shifting to be more equal and the migration is trickling the other way.
God help you if you should get sick while over
there working in India -- most Western medical
plans will not cover your overseas "deployment".
(Well, you could rely on the herbal remedies
available locally -- just put enough money aside
to have your body shipped home to Mum and Pop.)
Actually, India is becoming somewhat of a medical tourist destination, you probably won't have to worry about medical bills and health insurance so much if you "self-insure" -- the health insurance companies don't seem to have their claws in the system over there like they do in the US so medicine is still reasonably affordable, especially for someone with a decent (indian) job.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
For those interested, Mumbai was formerly known as Bombay.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I'm presently on the move from Alberta to British Columbia for work, so yes, migration can also happen without leaving your own country. There has always been a place for mobile professionals in the world -- in the 1800s they were explorers, fur traders and mercenaries, in the 1900s they were generally business men, and in the 2000s they are engineers and exotic dancers.
-AD
And Buddhists are worse than Mormons, Scientologists, or Jehovah's Witnesses? I can't recall the last time a Buddhist knocked on my door trying to save my soul from reincarnation as a worm, a bird, or some other lower form of life like, say, you.
Actually, an Indian engineer gets about $20K starting salary. Given the prices of things in India, that's about the equivalent of a $50K salary. You can't buy a hummer on that salary, but you wouldn't WANT one in Indian city traffic. My friend Sumit has a tiny little car, and even so, one of us had to get out to STOP TRAFFIC so we could get through.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
The best workers flee to India? I think the best ones will be the ones the American companies keep. They will be letting go of the bad to middle of the road ones and only keeping the cream of the crop. (In most cases that is. I know how office politics go and sometimes the good worker will be let go while some suckup stays).
Now if only they would outsource IT jobs to Bali, I'd be jumping on a plane...
I seriously doubt that the quality of life is bad in India. Every country has beautiful areas, and every country has rich people.
Indians go to the west to move up from a comparatively middle class life to a upper class life back in India. They seem like they are very unlikely to settle down in the west.
(from dictionary.com)
globalisation
n : growth to a global or worldwide scale
It doesn't say anything about exploitation of developing nations. The word is mis-used by way too many people.
The (Canadian) city where I live hosted a big international summit some time ago. Protesters staged continual demonstrations about the evils of "Globalisation" (peaceful ones to their credit). Literally the majority of these protesters came from outside Canada, from the US and all over Europe. Was it lost on them that they were participating in the GLOBALISATION of their protest movement?
Globalisation is inevitable...there is NOTHING that can or should be done to stop it. What is important is that you make your voice heard and be an active participant in the process. I may not have agreed with everything the protesters had to say (and am amused at their use of the word) but I applaud them for making their views known and doing it peacefully.
As for going to live in 3rd world countries it seems that in most cases skilled workers (both native and immigrant) are actually treated quite well. They pay is only mediocre by western standards. The quality of life is on par with middle class America. Housing is cheap or free and the employer provides free transportation to and from the office. I'd say that's changing people's attitudes alright--their views of globalisation are becoming more favourable.
From what I can tell, this is just call center stuff for the 20-somethings, not an opportunity for middle age coders, sysadmins, and DBAs. Too bad, I'd love to go to India.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
> Is this the first wave of the much anticipated
> reverse-migration which will be a hallmark of
> the 21st century?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
With that much angst, I can understand why you dont't go to India.
this is so bogus I dont know where to begin. evidentally you have never seen the images that radiologists read these days. modern multi-detector CT scanners have resolutions to .4 mm, are multiplanar, and show 3-D reconstructions immediately. they scan the body entirely in 20 seconds. they can be assessed around the world in a matter of a few seconds. modern MR is evolving just as quicklyl, with multichannel processing. I can only assume that this writer has no knowledge of radiology at all. yes, I can sit in New Delhi and read a study from Chicago, and via voice dictation, provide an answer in minutes. but as I stated, it is a matter of licensing and taxing, not image quality.
Many people live a fair distance from their families, myself included.. I'm willing to move for work but i'm not willing to traverse continents.. The further you live from Family the less you see them.. IM, emailing or talking on the phone isn't the same as being there with them. You miss out on ALOT of stuff.. If you don't agree with that then you don't have a sense of family or you haven't live away from them long enough to realize.
I've lived away from home for 7 years now.. and I miss it more and more each day... I've missed so much i'm afraid i'm going to regret it down the road.. i'm already starting to regret it now.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
With the disparity between incomes in developed and developing countries, of course it doesn't make sense to try to save money in a developing country with short-term work (though I wouldn't be surprised if is some money to be made somewhere). That's not the point. The point is to live in and experience a country and pay your way while you're there. Think VSO or it's US equivalent, Peace Corps; think work-for-accomodation in backpackers' hostels around the world, and so on. There's an awful lot more to life than money.
By the way, there's very good health care available in India if your not desperately poor. Otherwise, there's plain old travel insurance to cover repatriation.
glrotate, you're obviously concluding that all of India is like the big city in India which you visited. I've made many visits to India and your summary matches my impressions of Kolkata for the most part.
Thankfully most of India is still rural and NOT like you describe. Every time I arrive in India I make sure to get the heck out of the city as quickly as possible due to primarily the horrible pollution. The smaller towns, villages and cities can be delightful compared with the city life.
I'd hate for anyone too conclude that all of the USA is like Manhatten or LA.
Also, there is no religious ground for the animals walking the streets. It's simply a different philosophy.
You are counting the 10X factor twice, and multiplying them. This is wrong.
Look at it from the point of view of one country or the other, not both.
Let's say the guy arrives back to India and compares his lot with the European, who is about to leave. He has saved 10 times as much as the European. End of story.
${YEAR+1} is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
Awesome. Why would someone post this anon though, as it's unlikely anyone will see you telling me how full of shit I am.
Not that I'm doing it on purpose - the number of radiologists working with ye shitte olde x-ray is probably two orders of magnitude higher than your multi-detector CT scanner, so my point isn't entirely bogus.
I'm certain that that expensive "Western" college education that you borrowed money to get...
I believe you just put your finger, perhaps unwittingly, on the big problem with Americans and globalization: Americans have to pay a ton for their education, putting them in debt right from the start, whereas in most of the world, the education is heavily subsidized by the government. So while the rest can get educated then move to any other country that fits their lifestyle, the educated Americans are restricted to a few wealthy countries, at least until they pay off their huge debts.
India is not Buddhist, unfortunately.. Thankfully, though, it is a secular state -- no mixing of temple and state, if you don't know what I'm talking about.. we can talk about why I think this is still true some other time. There are pockets of insanity here and there, but that's also a bit off topic here.
60% of Indian workers are employed in subsistence agriculture, 23% in services.
The educated elite has gained a thin slice of the high-tech pie. But that has not translated into the kind of broad based economic development that would take the masses out of poverty.
Haha, while everyone else has been working on increasing their skills to appeal to the remnant American market, I've been learning to develop a taste for curry-based products! India, here I come!!! ;)
-Vendal Thornheart
"The meaning of the word computer has changed but has always lagged behind the capabilities of machines in use at the time. The word was originally used to describe a person who performed arithmetic calculations and this usage is still valid."
Computer operators?
Very good points. The problem is that capitalism hasn't got any checks and balances. People, as a whole, are to short-sighted to realize what they are doing to themselves until it is to late.
Everyone wants cheaper stuff so companies find ways to make cheaper stuff which requires them either reduce the quality, reduce their own profit margins, or pay less to produce the same items. To some degree they do reduce the quality but that can only go so far before people don't want the items anymore. Those in charge can't reduce their profit margins because if they do they'll be removed from control of the company and someone else will be put in their place. That means they have to reduce the cost of producing the items. That means more automation and cutting back on the wages they are paying. So, to simplify, lower prices mean fewer jobs and lower wages. Sure, we can't all afford to buy a Porshe but you should think about the companies that make the products you buy when comparing products. The Walmart-economy will cut all our throats. You'll notice that they no longer mark everything at Walmart as 'Made in the USA.'. There is good reason for that. Demand more locally made products and demand that more of the companies you buy from pay fair wages to their employees. IMO it's okay if a product is made in India, if I can't get the same product made locally, but I want to know the people making that product are earning a comparable living wage to those that live in the US.
I think the US needs to boost it's education system too. Highschool degrees have become almost worthless because highschool graduates aren't required to know anything. We don't pay our teachers enough so we don't have enough teachers and many that we do have are not that well educated. Also I think that as long as highschool degrees are worthless for getting jobs that the government should make free public colleges for getting your Bachelors degree. There should be no extra paperwork or requirements - it should be as easy as signing up to highschool. We should make it easier for everyone to get advanced degrees also.
Without correcting those problems we're going to have our asses kicked by globalization. A lot of people think the US will always be a world power but that is just arrogance. It's all to easy to fall from greatness if you don't make an effort to maintain that position.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
The only good thing about outsourcing to India was the potential to raise the lives of Indians. It is a country of somewhere around a billion people. Many areas with abject poverty. So now we are not going to educate Indians, we are not going to hire Indians, we are not going to put all of that money into the Indian economy. Instead the only benefit to the Indians might be some small amount of increase in servicing the Euros that come to India to take those jobs on a temporary basis. Taking any high tech skills they might have learned away. Taking any money they have saved out of the economy. That really seem to be a shame.
Nevermind that in Canada (land of free health care plagued by long wait times), people are starting to setup surgery-tourist packages to Indian hospitals, all-expenses paid including hotel, 1-month of follow up and a tour for something stupid like $5,000.
Apparently the hospitals that rich people in India go to are world-class and offer care at 1/10th the cost.
So I wouldn't rule out India's health care system so quickly.
...it's "migration". Migration is defined as a move from one area to another, for at least one year (anything else being classed as "other" - holiday, sabbatical, gap year etc.). There is no such thing as reverse migration.
To say so implies that by migrating, people are moving from a poorer country to a richer one (ie, from India to the US). That's not the case at all - migrating can be forced, can be voluntary, can be from an LEDC to an MEDC, from an MEDC to an LEDC...there's no "set" rule.
do the chicks there put out for white, geeky american guys? if so, then i'd consider a career in India.
"hey, could you pass me a paper towel? er.. I mean... DEPLOY ABSORBTION PANEL!"
No URL for it, but a local TV station (KRON 4) had a segment on the news about that last night and some of the privacy issues.
Yes, lawyers are being outsourced. Patent law work and legal work needing engineering/technical backgrounds is being outsourced to India as well.
But, one could forgive one for thinking so. Consider all official (state/government) motifs (the wheel, the lion's head, the motto 'Truth Alone Triumphs' etc.). They are all taken from the period of Ashoka, the king who spread Bhuddism to all the parts of the world that we think of as Bhuddist (SriLanka, parts of China etc.).
I believe the the choice of motifs was deliberate. An attempt by the politically correct moderates who dominated the framing of Indian constitution etc., to present a secular image.
Also, if I remember correctly, (I don't know if they took this bit out of their constitution), but India might be the only country with a constitution that explicitly gives the right to preach your religion (except in state sponsored context.). In most other constituions, it is implied under 'Freedom of Speech'. I just thought it was interesting. Funny even. Even Hilarious. (Funny because, this is very reason why Fascists are attacking minorities in India right now, and I think, for the sake of the minorities, that explicit statement should be removed, because as long as it exists, the minorities will feel the urge to preach and get screwed --and it is not funny if you are the minority.)
Ignore him.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Easiest way to avoid diarrhea is to cook your own, and cook it well. All you want to to is to kill bacteria and other germs in your food and water. Frying or boiling are the best ways to do this.
Or buy something takeaway and microwave it yourself. Microwave is a little unreliable unless you have the new inverter design ones which have stepless power adjustment. Long steady sterilization does it. 1 minute on full micro power may leave cool unsterilized pockets in your food. 1 min at 100% and 2 mins at 60% is better.
Always boil all of your water, even after buying that fancy ceramic water filter.
All of these simple lessons I've learn the hard way over the years in many countries, including developed ones.
If you need to eat out, take one strong aperitive before food, and one strong digestive after food. This may sound archaic to some but it really works wonders.
And chilling out after work in Holland really is second to none on this planet.
Assumption: You 'need' an 'expensive Western Education' to get anything done in life. Fact: FALSE Reason: Too much data to support the fact that "EWE"'s are, in fact, an utter waste of time.
Assumption: Nomads freak about posessions. Fact: FALSE. Reason: If you haven't chucked it *all* away, completely, and started fresh at least 3 or 4 times, you are not a nomad. You are probably owned by your posessions, though.
Assumption: Sick in India. Solution: There are a few million people living in India who do just fine without medical problems. Do what they do.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
But US citizens, famously provincial, could benefit from living and working abroad. No, you won't earn as much money, and you may find it hard to keep up with the latest pensées of Bill O'Reilly, and you'll have to learn to be tolerant and respectful of other cultures; but that seems like a decent trade-off, especially if the new migration creates better world citizens who can bring a measure of insight back to their own society.
Probably it's too late for those in their 30s and 40s, who, having show determination to vote against their own economic interests, now face being relegated to lower-paying jobs and ultimately being forced out of the field by the very corporate interests who control their politicians. But the new generation coming along could try this. Remember, kids: buy your airline tickets before you're drafted. Better an adventure next Spring in New Delhi than in Fallujah.
Happy Thanksgiving!
In some cases that might happen but what I think usually happens is very different.
Case A: company has programmers overqualified for what they need done. These employees cost far more than their coworkers.
Solution: fire overqualified workers.
Case B: company needs highest qualified workers. These employees cost a lot. Equally qualified employees can be hired in India for 1/10th the cost. Company can force current employees to train their replacements.
Solution: train new employees then fire existing employees.
Case C: company has morals and keeps all it's employees and pays them well. The competition hires cheap Indian labor. The competition's profits sore, they spend more money on marketing, and everyone and their dog starts buying the cheaper and better advertised products of the competition. Your company goes out of business.
Solution: none - again you're unemployed
So unless you have a skill that just can't be replaced you're probably screwed by the economics of the situation. It might not happen today but unless things change it will happen eventually.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
That works at the moment, but that lifestyle is very much dependent on cheap energy. And while we are not actually running out of oil, we are definitely running out of cheap oil.
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
Actually, you call Dell.
Hallowed are the Ori
So, I've also been to places that "most couldn't find on a map". I don't think that says much about me or my viewpoint. Just my travel history.Cute. Except you don't understand the word "exploit".
Congratulations, you're cutting edge 150 years too late.
Even the Peace Corps have been doing what you're claiming since the 60's.
The difference is that we used to IMPORT the raw materials from other countries and MANUFACTURE the finished goods here.
Now, we setup factories in 3rd world countries and have them import the raw materials and then we import the finished goods.
That's not a good idea if you want to maintain the standard of living of your population.
Americans often seem to have a stronger sense of family than other cultures *because* they live so far apart. Holidays like Thanksgiving are the only chance may people get to see their families, so people need to pack a whole year's worth of family time into a weekend.
But if you lived in a country where people could spend time with their families every day, spending time with your family wouldn't seem like that big a deal. You don't miss them till they're gone.
Cash now flows faster and easier than workers do. Before, it took the same effort for a person to go from London to New York as it did to send cash from London to New York.
In order to equalize it, you can remove restrictions on people moving and living where they want to or slow down the transfer of cash.
A lot of the jobs I've seen there were between US$2-$5/hr which sucks until you've been downsized here in the US and you're unemployment runs out. You could work for $5.75/hr or whatever minimum wage is here and be unable to pay for a house and food or you could move to India and work for a similar wage and have a house and food given to you. My rent for a small one bedroom apartment in Las Vegas is $1000/month. Having a comparable place for free would make the rest of my money go a lot further.
I'd be curious is to the quality of housing and food they have. My apartment is expensive IMO but it really isn't very nice. The buildings are cheap and probably don't even meet the legal standards of saftey. There isn't much space. Short of dirt floors and lots of bugs I doubt that the free places in India could be much worse.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Move to the US. Here even the highest tax bracket is less than half of what you're paying in Demnark.
You clearly have a strong grasp of the english language, which is the only real thing that America requires of anyone to be accepted.
I'm shocked at the tax rate you have to pay in Denmark, but not suprised. Socialism is just another form of communism. Communism is a philosophy founded upon the insane belief that because some people are able to rise to greater socio-economic heights than others, that everyone must be forcibly kept at the same level. This is their idea of "equality." In truth it doesn't work, even if it were somehow a good idea, which it isn't. Instead what happens is that those who enforce this "equality" set themselves up so that they are above the system. Party elites in the Soviet Union had special stores where they could buy things, including items from the west that your average Russian would likely never lay eyes on, let alone possess.
Socialism does not try to prevent those with greater ability, effort, or dumb luck, from getting ahead per-se. Instead it simply extorts the fruits of their labor from them and uses it to support those who are more lacking in ability, effort, and dumb luck.
Both systems attempt to homogenize a nation's wealth, which is ultimately destructive. It is far better to work to maximize the opportunity for each person to rise to greater heights. Those who have the ability and inclination will do so. Those who lack these qualities aren't worth a plug nickle anyway. The only danger that exists is the ultimate formation of an plutocracy, which is what the US suffers from to some extent.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Having the government pay for it isn't "free". It merely shifts the payer to the taxpayer, instead of the student. Americans have always had the option of a few years of military service to finance a college education, and indeed generations of working class elevated themselves to middle class in this fashion. For those who would never dream of firing a gun in this lifetime, student loans are readily availible.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
with 2/3 companies I've gotten options from, they are.
I've gotten far more value in free lunches at my current job than in stock in my previous...
Actually it is quite similar in Oil and Gas industry for those stationed in the middle east (and Russia if I remember). There is a secure compond for foreign workers (school and everything is there). Everybody speaks English and the security is better within the compound than it is in some places in the US. Outside the compounds of course, you may require an armed escort should you need to go to certain places.
I think people underestimate the ability to raise a family under such circumstances (army or otherwise). Yes, it can be diffucult. Impossible? No. If you cannot deal with the local language and culture requirements, it isn't likely you'd be selected for the job in any case. Working overseas or in a job requiring extensive global travel isn't for everyone (I myself would not choose the nomadic life, although I'd relocate if required), but I forsee it becomeing much more commonplace in the future.
Ah, US Thanksgiving, when generations come together... on Slashdot.
The media has pounded into the heads of Americans that resistance to globalization is futile.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
That the European welfare states are collapsing-- but they just keep plugging along. Gee, I wonder if the corporatist-imperialist state of America will have to declare war on them if Americans finally catch on. And that happens ol' Cryofan will be here in America--fighting for Europe!
eat shiat and bark at the moon
A well-off USA-resident Indian sysadmin friend of mine, when back in India briefly two years ago (either ND or Mumbai), had to deal with obtaining proper medical care for her middle-class (or better) India-resident father.
He needed non-emergency corrective surgery related to a broken leg.
I can accept that the surgeons insisted on being paid cash, in advance.
But the hospital required that *she* personally make the trips between the hospital and the blood-bank to obtain and transport the (NOT rare) blood needed for his surgery.
I'll pass, thank you.
... is a misnomer. Migration is migration is migration. "Reverse" migration strikes me as condescending and bigoted (ok I am setting myself for a flaming -- I used the "b" word). I admit, I am being semantic, but isn't the movement of people to other countries, always known as migration? Why the need to qualify it by saying it's reverse migration?
What about movies showing a woman kissing another woman. Are they ok? That should make Indian cinema interesting.
There are 2 models in play for nomads of the 21st century. Take off to different country and work for local currency. Or live in the third world and contract out your services to first world countries. Either way you can live like a king. The second option is better because you can actually save money. hook up with one of the many language schools to learn the language or better deal with the transition abroad. Here's one of the better ones
http://www.firststepworld.com/
You act like there is a lot of new small companies forming and that our economy has more than enough jobs for every American. What country have you been living in the past few years? Did you not notice the jobs moving to India during the recession? When theres not enough jobs, you move to the jobs.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
That the European welfare states are collapsing-- but they just keep plugging along.
But not as well as Britain after Britain made their economy more market-oriented.
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
to non-aus (with exception to kiwis and other antipodeans) this comment reflects reality for a number of reasons.
Firstly for any scientific or technical work one of ways to get any recognition back home is to work overseas in a foreign company. It is a dilemma that faces many in country where business is timid clubby and insular and mono cultural. It is also a chance to get some $$$ in a country where pay for workers relatively to business exe s is pretty poor. Flame away ...
Pria Viswalingam did a great doco, 'She'll be right boss' highlighting this problem.
'... then head back to Australia to do what I can to build up the national market for technologyhighlighting another problem(s) that exist - complete apathy in recognising the skills these people typically bring back (inside knowledge) and lack of interest by the business and political heads of the need to build a environment suitable for success.
Global markets will smash australian business that fail to adapt to the upcoming competitors. So new blood, tempered with international experience is *needed* back into aus.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
I think the quote takes into consideration that outsourcing work is usually done by other countries into India because of the lower cost. There is a higher concentration of outsourced employees in India than Europe. Also, a greater number of Indians leave their country to pursue technology jobs outside of their country than Europeans. Therefore, it is a combination of outsourcing to the people of countries that usually outsource the work and migration of workers from an environment of lower outsourced concentration to greater outsourced concentration. I don't see any bigotry here, but I guess this kind of issue is subjective.
I don't see any numbers, and what one person considers "mediocre" is variable enough in itself to be almost no information at all. Almost as little information as your comment just now, in fact.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
Do I have to remind you of Kathy Lee Gifford's little episode with child labour?
I toured Scandinavia shortly after graduating college, and was shocked to hear a Norwegian grad student was not only not paying for school, but actually getting a small stipend to live off while he continued his education. The American situation is, however only a "problem" for individual young Americans. From the perspective of American companies, corps and gov't; keeping talent local is a good thing.
I agree. I work in the US, but am a project manager working with a team of developers in India. I have found that:
1) members of the team are very skilled and intelligent
2) members of the team have excellent communication skills
3) members of the team are very personable and easy to work with
4) members of the team are very motivated, hard working, committed to the projects and to providing a quality product.
This is not to say there have not been some frustrations, but these have proved easy to overcome. Timing is frequently an issue, but this is resolved by my getting up a bit earlier (between 5 and 6) and the team working a bit later (8 or 9). It took me about 3 weeks to get very comfortable with the accent, though IM has been a great way to communicate too.
At first, I was worried, as I was a coder for a small company that was acquired by a large company that does a lot of outsorcing. Turns out I transitioned in to project/product management, and I enjoy it more and am much better at it. My point is that global outsourcing can be good. My new position is more fun with better pay.
"None of us are as dumb as all of us." - meeting mantra
There's a lot wrong with US healthcare and health insurance, but insurance companies aren't responsible for high medical costs. That aspect runs counter to the interests of the health insurance companies. After all, they're the ones who actually pay most medical bills. My point here is that you also need to consider the other parties raising the cost of healthcare - the providers and patients.
I think your ad homniem attack on the GP is in poor taste. I grew up in a family that moved around; I was raised on two continents and now live on a third. Being moved around as a child was hard, but I think that frankly I've lived a lot more than most people my age, and with experience comes maturity, common sense and open-mindedness. There were times when I hated my parents for their dynamic lifestyles -- but as I understand it, non-mobile kids hate their parents for forcing them to do things they don't want to do too, like cleaning their room or not wearing that dress to the prom, or whatever.
Now, I'm 25, I speak 4 languages fluently and am conversant in 6, am a citizen of no less than three different countries and have lived and worked all over the world. I'd love to take credit for these accomplishments, but who am I kidding? My parents did that for me, and its opened more doors for me than a xenophobic monoglot could possibly imagine. If that's bad parenting, man, I'd sure like to see good!
As for taking care of the elderly, I agree that this is sometimes necessary -- but only when the elderly are incapable of taking care of themselves. Assuming that just because someone is in their 80s they can't live on their own is agist and my grandfather, at least, would resent it.
Housing isn't so terrible over in India. I know of someone over there who has a 2 bedroom apartment to themself. I forgot how much it cost exactly, but it was just about 1/3 of what they brought home each month. Sounds a bit pricy at first, but not that different from what the rent is in the US for many cities.
Cars are a different matter. My old Nissan is worth about $1000 here in the states. If that same car was over in India, it would be worth... about $1000. The difference is, over there $1000 is a lot of money! Atleast in the US when you spend a significant portion of your income on a car, you'll probably get something fairly new and [hopefully] reliable.
That said, there is a definite surge in ex-pat hiring in a different sphere altogether; at a managerial level, to be precise. Many Indian companies are about to venture out of the traditionally-protectionist Indian market, and are finding themselves without the necessary managerial experience to survive in the global market.
Non-Indian /.-tters looking to work in India would be better off looking at PHB positions; you get all those cool perks (maid, driver, bungalow, club-memberships etc) AND international-level salaries. Indian software co's seem to be exclusively focussing on fresh grads, a demographic whose supply seems endless currently.
More than mere navel gazing.
"Actually in Malaysia only muslims have to follow sharia so if you aren't muslim you can do what you like...although finding alchohol or porn could be tricky.
I wouldn't move to even a relatively moderate muslim country like malayasia though. In a country of hundreds of millions theres bound to be more than a couple islamo-kooks looking to blow up westerners."
I'm in Malaysia. Finding alcohol is definitely not tricky, in fact beer's pretty cheap here considering it is a muslim country. Of course beer might not count as alcohol to some people (concentration is quite low). But you can all sorts of alcoholic drinks at bars, nightclubs, most restaurants, 7/11s, supermarts etc. Plenty of choices. You can get stout for about USD1.50 to USD3.00 depending on where you go.
Finding porn tricky? Erm there's this thing called the Internet and spam sure gets here too. Avoiding porn has got to be trickier than finding porn...
Malaysia only has 20+ million people. IIRC in the US there were more than a couple of "islamo-kooks" who blew up more than a few westerners.
In essence, I think it's good that Indian workplaces are beginning to open up to other cultures, and I certainly think the Indian job market is big enough to handle a few international applicants.
More than mere navel gazing.
You never once mentioned America, and now you will destroy my assertion based on that. You are what you eat and I loaded up on turkey today... :-)
All of these people sign on for a year, and although some of them are extending their stays, I don't think many of them are planning to permanently put roots down in India.
This is just a working holiday, the modern equivalent of backpacking and English teaching your way through Asia...
More than mere navel gazing.
Utter crap!
Jus as some one in USA or anywhere else gets diarrhoea, so do people in India or anyother counter.Iam an Indian too and I live in India. .
May be you arent patriotic,but stop with that.You dont need to throw huge lies like that to show your liking for USA.
Why does yahoo do this
I know a guy who did that. It cost less to buy a ticket, go to india, get work done then to have it done here. He needed orthodonture (sp?) and his insurance didn't cover it.
evil is as evil does
Well, in my grandfather's case, he lives in a country that is rather generous with social security; and sound investment decisions when he was younger mean that he would probably live well even without these aids. He's French.
For poor Americans that won't get much help from Social Security, even though they probably paid into it for most of their lives, I agree, financial aid is necessary. But then, you don't need to live with your grandparents to support them financially, do you?
Understand that I'm not against your general view: that children should help parents. I think that's fair; as was mentioned previously, they take care of you when you can't take care of yourself, and you take care of them when they can't take care of themselves -- and throughout your lives, you help each other.
But understand that there are many ways to satisfy these laudable goals.
Buddhism originated in India, but basically disappeared from the culture until recently. These days most converts to Buddhism are dalits (former untouchables) seeking to break with traditional caste-based religious practices.
Not sure if working in India is going to be as decent as Wallmart or Burger King, but for retirement you'll definitely be better off leaving US. With taxes expected to double or triple in 30 years, no-one with any brain cells is going to retire here.
Say, Coward... I suppose if you actually knew how to read, then you'd be smart enough to see that I didn't compare Manhattan to India. Go back to sleep in that aforementioned hole that you yourself obviously live in! Ignorance is bliss, ain't it!? Or in terms that I'm sure even you can understand... No brain, no pain! Splendid!