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Getting the Girl
1up.com has a great article up entitled Getting The Girl. Zoe Flower discusses female gaming stereotypes, the role of women in gaming, and the mythical "girl formula" for gaming success. From the article: "Lara Croft continues to personify an ongoing culture clash over gender, sexuality, empowerment, and objectification. It was while standing in my first-ever ladies' room line at E3 2004 as I pondered the Playboy bunnies, the return of Leisure Suit Larry, and the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all."
The biggest market for video games are males aged 12-25. Big breasted women helps sell games to this demographic. That is all.
Don't forget the DOA series. That volleyball game was purely eye candy for thirteen year olds. And Rumble Roses looks to be about the same, though I've never seen more than an ad for it.
Caution - poster has no actual knowledge. Read at your own risk.
If having a slew of "buxom virtual ladies" is wrong then I don't want to be right.
**purplexed**
Sometimes women will say to me "Look at those scantily clad women with their tits hanging out on the box! That's sexist!"
To which I have to say "Do you see any short bald dudes with a big pot belly on any of these boxes either? No, it's all he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles".
These games aren't any different than music videos or movies. Do you see any ugly people in music videos or movies aimed at 18-25 audience? Of course not. No one attacks the music industry for using half-naked chicks and musclemen with abs-o-steele to get teenagers to watch their videos...
If the current depiction of women seems to sell games well enough and appeal to the main market, why the hell would the game makers want to change it?
I mean, while big breasted scantily-clad women might not inspire me to buy a game, they certainly add to the appeal.
1: "Box" isn't used as a slang term in the USA
or
2: Slashdot is even geekier than I thought...or perhaps less geeky...I'm not sure now...
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
But the article is about gamer girls and... Oh, you mean computer boxes!
Heh.
Zoe Flower sounds more like a porn name, to me at least.
Why is focusing on a woman's body objectification? And not focusing on her mind or her personality? Clearly I don't look at women's bodies as "objects" but as "women's bodies". Oh well. I just treat that as one of those words like "empowerment" that doesn't really mean anything except to indicate how much self-censorship you have to impose around the person who said it.
For the record I don't like Lara Croft or booth babes or fake tits, but I'm not ashamed to find a woman attractive based on her looks alone.
A girl who calls herself "Zoe Flower" is going to lecture us on feminism in video gaming.
I'll go back to playing nethack now.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Give the feminazi shit a rest for awhile.
If Lara Croft was a fat bull-dyke noone would buy or play the game.
BTW, before you start crying "sexism", you might want to note that male characters are invariably the 6'4 rugged Dirty-Harry type.
I've never seen an FPS where you play a myopic, balding, fat kernel hacker.
Half Life was as non-stereotype a lead character as I've seen, and that's only because Gordon wears glasses.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Oh, Girl... Something we know nothing about. :)
There's nothing to question, its an obvious no.
Just because there's pornos doesn't mean someone else can't release chick flicks. Similarly, just because Leisure Suit Larry games exist doesn't mean female preferred games like the Sims series haven't been released and done very well.
Hopefully some publishers/designers will realise that they're excluding potential customers with such tactics like those who now release for Macs as well. But realistically, there will always be a probably large section of the industry [just like the movie industry] which will focus on their core target audience: horny, horny young men.
Laura Croft was about giving pubescent boys something to fantasize about.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
And, no, I'm not new here.
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
If you go to the magazine section and see all the silly men's magazines, they have pretty girls on them (occasionally men).
When you look at the women's trashy magazines, they have pretty girls on them (occasionally men). You know, the ones that tell you how to make your butt smaller, charge your cell phone, run a fortune 500 company, and get that cute guy, all before lunch?
It's obvious: CmdrTaco needs only black boxes.
Letter
I can see it now... We should be up in arms about it and let's pass some legislation banning the game manufacturers from using scantily clad women... *boo whoo* Women are so oppressed and exploited... Can't they find something else to cry about? How about pull some crap statistics out about how men make more than you do although men work regularly more hours than you do and work in more dangerous environments and that you CHOOSE to work in environments that give you flexibility for less hours and as result, less pay.
It was while standing in my first-ever ladies' room line at E3 2004 as I pondered the Playboy bunnies, the return of Leisure Suit Larry, and the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all.
As a devout Dead or Alive: Ultimate player, I can confidently say that...
No, no it hasn't.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
You want the female gamer? Fine! Stop shoving corporate sellout Barbie lookalike clans like the FragDolls down their throat and give some real all-girl clans some press once in awhile. You know, the clans where the girls don't look like Playboy Bunnies.
I though it would be an actual game about Getting the Girl
The unofficial
I thought Alyx was a pretty well realized female character. Tough, feminine, sexy without being a slutty, smart as hell, and she even possessed a figure without Laura-Croftian... embellishments. I think it says positive things that the top game of the year has a female character that can stand up with the men in the game, and possibly has a future in her own game. I'd *love* to see an Alyx and DOG game, or just Alyx for that matter.
Sure, you can find stereotypes in trashy games like BloodRayne and various fighters, but there are plenty of male stereotypes to be found over there as well.
Like my comments? Try my podcast: http://www.baldmove.com
What makes Ms. Flower's opinion about what characters in video games should look like, "more" valid than anyone else's?
Nothing. Unfortunately, there are many more video game customers who would like their female characters to have cartoonishly large breasts than there are video game customers who would like their female characters to have folds and beards.
The difference is that guys don't get their panties in a bunch because all of the male video game characters have cartoonishly large muscles.
Ms. Flower is trying to manufacture a double standard where none exists - male and female characters are treated the same; they're made to look perfect.
As for video game themes, Ms. Flower is simply outvoted. Our culture uses sex to sell. We sell stuff using attractive people, choosing gender based on audience. Complaining that video game conferences have booth babes is like complaining that there are no fat guys in soap operas.
paintball
Pretty People sell better than Ugly ones!
Makes sense we have a Chippendale Dancers, not Chubendales. I hate it when the logical and factual is presented as new thought.
Is that the same as I'm-a-flaming-homosexual department?
I don't get it. Laura Croft is a stereo type and Duke Nukem isn't? C'mon people, almost all the male characters in games are steroid pumped jocks. What's worse most of them are blond haired blue eyed Aryan types. Unless you are playing an RPG and playing a barbarian or a dwarf you are playing a buffed character. If you are playing barbarian or dwarf the female is as un-buff as the male. Sounds like equal opportunity to me.
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Just wait until Duke Nukem Forever for some more female/male steriotypes.
Who needs a girlfriend when you can have a $499 iMac? Come on people, let's start to see some proper geek priorities!!
(Disclaimer: comment is firmly tongue-in-cheek. Turn the damn computer off and go outside once in a while.)
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
The female character in the webcomic Ctrl-Alt-Del [link: ctrlaltdel-online.com] is any male gamer's dream.
Truth, Just Us, And Hatred For All Mankind!
One thing that I'm really liking about Nintendo is that they seem adamant about acquiring new markets for their products... the DS in particular - many women have taken to the device, loving games like Feel The Magic and the Mario 64 DS minigames... The new method of input is a lot easier for newbie gamers to grasp than, say, an Xbox controller with god knows how many different buttons on it. Instead of relying on the tried and true 12-25 male market, I'm really glad Nintendo has been wanting to branch out more.
:)
Most people seem to think that just because girls don't want to play these violent FPSes and GTA clones that are rampant at the moment, they will never be interested in games. But I know quite a few girls who are into games, including my girlfriend... but the kind of games they play - The Sims, (thing) Tycoon, puzzlers, and many Japanese RPGs, is pretty different from what's currently popular with your typical casual male gamer.
I think the best way to get more girl gamers is to have more girls producing games... Feel The Magic is a hit with the ladies, and it was headed up by 2 women. Plus, The Greatest Game Series Ever was headed up by a woman
After scanning the article and reading the summation, it looks like the greatest majority of women gamers have been completely ignored. Look again, Ms. Flower, look at the casual market and find that women over thirty five represent nearly half of ALL computer gamers. It's not like there's a lack of positive women role models presented in games. They're just not easy to find, because the gaming industry is still sucking up to hard-core players. (for which I'm actually half grateful, because I want more RPGs) Fortunately, mobile games and casual games are just starting to turn big heads like EA, MS, Sony, and Nintendo.
it was created for 13 year old boys.
Also, how can you say there is a line at the womens room for the first time, and in the same breath wonder if the industry has/is changing.
Clearly, you observations dictate that it is changing.
Please remember the men respond to visual stimuli much stronger then women, so the 'sexy' woment will be selling products to men in nearly all industries. Whether its a women presenting a new automobile, or a huge breasted digital creation.
Any toy seller will tell you that different toys will appeal to different genders. Believe me, Mattell would love to sell barbie to boys.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Fine, early 20's late 20's... I'm 29 and I still like tits! As long as the market they sell to is predominately male, hot women help sell it.
Send whiskey and fresh horses!
What about Rosella? (Kings Quest IV anyone)
First female videogame main character?
The article also doesn't mention Roberta Williams who I seem to remember being pretty instrumental down at Sierra.
LOL I AM TEH MODIFY W1K1P3DIA ENTRY FOR TEH HUNS... LOL OMG CHINKS R G3HY.
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If a bunch of girls are really pissed that there are no games for them to play, they'll get together and make a game. If they do, good for them. Otherwise get off our fucking case. Just because it doesn't cater to your every whim doesn't mean it's sexist.
that would disprove her point.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is definitely true - I was pretty aghast looking at some of the advertisements on TV about the new games coming out - "Rose Rumble" and "Grand Theft Auto - San Andreas" being some of the them. The image of women in games has been reduced to that of a "whore" who is expendable and there only for pleasure. Very distrubing and unfortunate.
Please help me infect my machine at 139.147.8.100
I need to test virus/worm scanners on it!!
The video game development landscape is populated by mostly men. Until more females become interested in creating the content you won't see females being portrayed the way "females" want.
On another note, there isn't any difference between this and other media outlets. TV/movies and music videos work the same way. Even the female leads in these projects know how to sell a product.
I'm going to even throw in a reference to porn here. I was watching a thing on TV where they talked how they used to use average men in videos because they felt they would identify. But then they realised that "sexy" men sold more. People want to be transported into the fantasy.
Is the game industry immature? Or is it just being realistic?
http://zoeflower.1up.com/
Cute.
After reading the title i thought the article would actually be useful to us (the stereotypical /. reader). Turns out its about selling video games to girls, laaaaaame.
It makes you wonder what would happen if there were a game that does not base its characters on appearance, but rather on personality and actul character. (Oh wait, that's the Sims, and that's called a chick game too.) What would you guys say about Metroid Prime? I'm not a game geek by any means--but I didn't Samus Aran was female. What does that say about traditional female game characters? I know it genuinely confused my fellow game-illiterate friends and me.
All stereotypes are negative. Male/Female Adult/Child White/Black. This reviewer is complaining more about the mis-interpretation of women in liesure suit larry. However, she does not chose to object to the image of a letcherous man as the main character.
Name one positive stereotype in games? The humans in Warcraft are xenophobes on a witch hunt. Samurai in fighting games are mad blood thursty freaks. Even mushrooms are misinterpreted and are misleading in Mario. The message is "Here kids, eat a mushroom, do cool things...."
Non-stereo typical themes in culture do not do well. Not only are they hard to do, they lack interesting alliteration and feeling.
Here's to losing my Karma Bonus again....
I don't have the slightest idea what FragDolls are, and have only a vague notion that Clans must be teams in online games ( the kind that make you shell out a monthly fee and which I will therefore never play ).
Can't you make your own 'Clans' as long as you don't make white sheets the uniform?
Oh, God, yet another ponderous article on "Women In Video Games." Doesn't anyone find the use of words like "empowering" and "disenfranchises" the least bit ironic? Doesn't this kind of overanalysis take the fun out of video games? And doesn't ascribing this sort of importance to them lend credence to the arguments of those want to restrict/ban certain titles?
What's more, the article is embarassing to read. This is little more than a female journalist injecting gender politics into everything she sees. It reeks of self-importance and psych 101. I don't disagree with many of the statements and conclusions throughout the article, but they are largely redundant and do not bear repeating.
The only thing that needs to be stated here is that if/when females constitute enough of a demographic for the industry to address, they will help determine the industry's direction when it comes to content and subject matter. Sometimes, they already do. This isn't rocket science.
all i know is i'm glad they added blonde hookers with pigtails and plaid skirts.
All the girls I know that play games (some of them geeks, some not) like to play any game that involves social interaction. Either with friends they know in RL, or on another continent. And if they can meet new people that they can then meet in RL, they're even more into it. Game design, plot, and story as always play a significant role. Being able to meet people and either Role Play with them, or just get to know them, ask how they and their friends are doing on a daily/weekly basis however, plays a much more central role for women than men.
More girls I know play MMOs or the yahoo table games than anything else.
Everywhere I've read, the average age of video game buyers is 36.
...the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all.
Well of course the industry has evolved!
Thanks to the adoption of video game ratings, the "M" rating has greatly increased the "strongly suggestive" content in games, while the "AO" rating has made publishers not worry about releasing outright porn in games.
If you don't call that an improvement, well, I don't know what you expect. You want your "weeners" tag to go along with "boobies"? Get enough females interested in gaming to make it marketable, and I guarantee you'll see equality in video game sexual content. You only see females "exploited" (though in this case, can you even call it exploitation when it doesn't involve any real women?) because the target market consists almost entirely of horny young men. Add horny young women as a target demographic, and software houses will jump at the chance to pander to them for a buck.
But then, that presupposes the entire title of this topic, doesn't it?
Unfortunately, there are many more video game customers who would like their female characters to have cartoonishly large breasts than there are video game customers who would like their female characters to have folds and beards.
Keep the faith, brother! Until then we'll survive on furry pr0n of the more deviant variety.
Bit of an unlikely title for a /. article, no?
I run a company that does LAN parties and online gaing events. Although we are not to the scale of other events, we do get a fair share of people in the doors.
Attracting the female gamer is something like hunting the mythical beasts or yore sometimes. But the number of female gamers that attend is always low. The only time we see a larger number is when we attend a party sponsored by the local university. Then we see the ladies that are gamers with their boyfriends only. For the most part this 43% is not showing up in person, but only online.
Although I agree that the "beautiful people" stereotype swings both ways, I question the need for the female characters to wear next to nothing, where as the male characters are fully clothed and heavily armed.
Hmm, I think we still have a long way to go.
Here I come to save the da... *thud*
I gotta get me a shorter cape.
It's a glandular problem, you insensitive clod!
it makes perfect sense for women to make advances in terms of equality in salary, freedom from sexual harassment, respect in sports, etc.
i mean just look at michelle wie in golf: this chick (yes, chick, not woman- she's 15 yo) is going to break up the male-only PGA... that's wonderful, and it's also real palpable progress: if she can swing a golf club, who cares what her sex is, let her play golf on equal footing, and she will, and she will beat the masters!
this is the real world, this is real progress
however, video games are a fantasy world
the male mind hasn't changed in thousands of years
it makes perfect sense, in fact, that women characters in video games played by men should get even more outlandish as time goes on: it's fantasy
reality versus fantasy
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I'm sure Stevie Case would agree with you. She says as much in her Playboy interview.
If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than if you just drank gin straight from the bottle.
No kidding... Zoe Flower is definitely a man writing under a pen name. A sad, sad man.
That game is awful girly, with the beautiful plants and flowers and all the pretty birds. Sounds like toots is in desperate need a beef injection if you know what I'm saying.
At the end of Little House Zappa makes some quick replies to a heckler in the crowd. The guy shouts something like "Take off that fucking uniform before it's too late!" (possibly talking to a security guard that can be heard trying to get people to get back in their seats), and Frank replies "Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, don't kid yourself". The heckler continues shouting, and eventually Zappa just says "You'll hurt your throat. Stop it."
w ee.htm
http://home.epix.net/~eichler/reviews/zappa/burnt
Hmm.
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
I find that the actual interface for video games is more geared towards males. Most games involve a lot of hand eye coordination and spacial recognition. Tracking multiple objects at once and such. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no expert on the subject but I believe males are generaly more adapt in these area's. And from my experience intruducing females to games they tend to get frustrated quickly with the controls. Games that I have had success getting females involved in are games like karaoke revolution, and "The sims" seems to be extremely popular with the ladies. I think perhaps the way in which users interact with games is as big a proplem in attracting females as the actual content.
What else is new? We knew that allready, and why would the gaming industry be different?
Take a look at MTV and you see exactly the same thing, lots of barely clothed chicks.
And women don't get massively offended by it. Apparently sex sells regardless of the comsumer's gender.
women see something they wanna look similar to and men see something they want.
so your bragging that you get lesbian girls by looking and acting gay?
My belief is that there is a small set of games that appeal primarily to males, a large set of games that appeal to both males and females, and again another small set that appeals primarily to females. So far, the vast majority of games have used violent conflict as a central progression indicator. This includes everything from duck hunt to Doom 3. I believe this sort of game falls under the category of being primarily enjoyed by males. It is the auxiliary features that distinguish each game within this theme and make it interesting.
Lately I have started playing World of Warcraft, which, at its essence, is merely another way of slaying endless adversaries. The rewards are different, and the audio/visuals and networking are different, but it's still about killing things. Now I would be willing to bet (without knowing the actual player demographics) that the vast majority of WoW players are male.
Now, in my opinion again, not only does this concentration on one type of game lead to unbalanced player demographics, but it also leads to a severe draught of innovative and fun games. From the perspective of a male, female gamers most likely just want "fun" and "innovative" games. They don't care if the lead character (if there is one) is a strong female or how big her boobs are, and they don't want to only ever play the Sims. I think when developers find time to give up on striving for better graphics, better physics, and better gore simulation and instead try to make a game that is not a puzzle game that doesn't involve violence of any sort (not because it's offensive, but because it's been done ad nauseum) then female gamer numbers will just rise of their own accord. No need to be targetted by a marketing department. Male and females can even play the same games! Imagine that, just like they enjoy lots of the same movies!
Why does the game industry as a whole have this fixation on violent games? Well recently, I would imagine it's because companies don't like to take risks, and violent games are a proven formula. But why in the first place did everyone have this obsession? Well, my guess is that because games were always terribly constrained by the hardware on which they were running, some sacrifices needed to be made to the gameplay in order to have a complete game. Conflict is easy to simulate. There are two statuses I can think of: winner and loser. Alive and dead. How binary. But now we have machines capable of simulating much more and yet we don't. Anyway, that's my take on why we still do so many violent games.
I'd like to remind Ms Flowers that the women's mag industry values wealth over character in potential husbands, and places a premium on physique on playmates for the female's sexual-awakening-years.
It's the way of biology and thousand's of years of evolution, and a few years' liberation.Do booth babes sell product? I can recall only two sets of booth babes at a LWCE. The first was the BSD Daemon Babe, Cerwin Ercen. She remains popular to this day. But her popularity has more to do with her geekiness, ordinariness, and her obvious play on the booth babe stereotype. Cerwin as a booth babe is clever hack. It's screaming to an unlistening world that you don't have to be a lobotomized and plasticized supermodel from the pages of Playboy to look sexy.
But at that same expo there was another set of booth babes (and a couple of booth studs for "balance"). They were the epitome of the stereotype. What booth was this? Frankly, I can't remember. These people were so out of place at the convention that even the models looked embarassed.
They didn't show up at the next show.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Then... Don't be a nice guy. I don't mean be a jerk or an a-hole, just don't go out of your way to be nice to a woman. Don't put her up on a pedestal. Don't be anxious to call back (hint: if they really like you a lot, they'll wonder what's going on and call you). I've read a lot of material on what women like and what they don't like - looks help, but true self-confidence is the true attractant. Fellas, I'm no prize in the looks dept, but when I was a 16 yr old pimply virgin, if I went back in time and showed pix of some of the women I've dated/slept with, I wouldn't have believed it. It was just a matter of knowing myself better and becoming more confident. There's someone for everyone, guys. It's a numbers game - don't settle.
Perhaps the reason more women don't flock to gaming and other online enjoyments is because of the treatment they get. Sites like this don't really do a lot to dissipate stereotypes or objectification of women. But damn she's got a nice ass!
Free shot for spelling DISTRUBING, a nice Freudian slip.
If I want to play an overweight computer programmer, I'm not going to buy a game to do it.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
Doesn't like how things are, so she wants to force everybody to change to what she wants.
My message to her is:
Hey, instead of endlessly playing the bogus victim card, why don't you go and get funding and start your own company? If you think you got it all figured out, I'm sure you'll be successful.
Of course she's too lazy and talentless for that. So instead she resorts to whining endlessly.
P.S. The word is "sex," not "gender." Gender is what describes inanimate objects in the German language, irrespective of what feminists would have you belive.
Fragdolls are a group of beautiful women put together by Ubisoft (expenses paid of course) to go to gaming events and promote their games. Slashdot story on them.
Give me a break. Men can't even be men in the fantasy world anymore. The feminization of our culture is now supposed to extend to male sexuality now? Fuck that.
Listen, I'm not saying that there aren't problems with gender representation in video games (no one mentioned the male stereotypes which are propogated by the gaming industry, but I don't really care enough to go down that road). Certainly there is a need for more female characters and especially female characters that aren't over sexualized. However, there is nothing wrong with the return of leisure suit larry or the plaboy game. Here's a newsflash ladies: men think about fucking you. A lot. And dating doesn't come into the fantasy. You know that guy at Starbucks that serves you coffee every morning? He would probably fuck you on the floor behind the counter if he got the chance...and if he wouldn't (which is certainly possible) then I guarantee you he's at least thought about it. It's biological programming...it's how we're wired.
Now we can either act on that or not. Some people might put forth the idea that getting to act on these impulses in video games might help us to not need to act them out as much in real life. What a concept. Denying the nature of male sexuality isn't going to make it go away. We sure have a lot of talk about how this or that repressed group feels, but what about the traditionally dominant group? Just because we need to work towards a climate of accepting all people's ways of being doesn't mean we should do it at the expense of the previously dominant groups way of being. They, in this case men, have a right to be as they are too.
I love how people toss around the word "objectification" whenever a woman is dressed to be sexually pleasing.
But let's get something straight: Video game characters ARE objects!
You know, they say masturbation doesn't really make you go blind, but the lack of decent spelling, punctuation, and perspective in your comment has to make me wonder.
Lay off the wacking for a few hours, junior.
... we accept the facts that men like looking at hotties and women like babbling incessantly about nonsense.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Yet, she's not adverse to posting "sexy, come-hither" photos of herself...
personal page
1 Up page
I sure would love to Flower her Zoe...
What the good holy fuck? Women gamers have a problem with the Lara Croft character? Why?
I guess that means no more good looking guys in games. No more superheroes with gargantuan muscles, no more cute guys in movies; every actor should be a hideous nerd.
You want to identify with your demographic, right? Naturally I've gone well beyond the bounds of the original chick logic: remember, it only applies to us guys. Women refuse to feed from the same trough of humility that they insist men do.
I already have to deal with over opinionated, pms'ed women. Why on any planet would I want to spend my spare time playing a game with a bitchy character like this? *unless of course this was the evil arch enemy*
Same can be said about males. I don't see a lot pot bellied, beer drinking, couch potatoes as heros either.
I think in general physical attraction is more important to men, where women are more complex. Well atleast that's my understand, who the hell can understand women anyway? Definately not the game designers, hell sometimes I think women don't even understand themselves.
One thing is for certain they know what males like.
this shouldn't be a shock but we are animals. i'm sick of people that are surprised by this, i mean, should we all shave our heads and look as androgynous as we can so that we get rid of our differences?
i'm wondering where this whole idea that if we become as androgynous as possible is being civilized or advanced? sexuality is a part of humanity, like it or not.
"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
Girls? I don't get it.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
http://www.fragdolls.com/
Real hard to find when it is the I'm feeling lucky search. FragDolls are a bit overhyped in the gamer community. Take a group of quite attractive twenty-somethings taht play online games, and have a gamer geeks fantasy. Of course one look and thier website and thier email address "Fragdolls at ubisoft dot com" and it comes across as highly commercialized.
A clan is a group of online friends who game together. Some of the more notable clans play together in game tournaments. If you have ever seen someone's name with "{FD}" after the name, it is an indication that they are in a clan.
Many clans are based around FPS like CS, though MMORPG's have them too.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
justin timberlake is buff? Oh wait hes such a loser after the superbowl :-)
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Ah. This must be what is called "enlighted discourse."
Yes, stratjakt, you are being taken to a concentration camp is an airless cattle car. If you suffocate or starve to death en route, so much the better.
If you are sickly when you get there, you will be carted off to the mass showers to be gassed immediately. Otherwise, you will be put to work digging mass graves and dragging bodies to the incinirators.
Insulting your opponents is not a legitimate debate tactic. Likening them to the Third Reich makes you look even more foolish.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
Will Nina's low-cut shorts and thigh-high boots allow her to deliver a more powerful blow in Death by Degrees? The developer wants you to believe so.
Hmm, I haven't played "Death by Degrees", but I somehow doubt there's a blurb in it that amounts to sexy outfit = power fighter. What the heck is wrong with sexy outfit = sexy outfit?
Beyond Good & Evil's Jade bucked the trend of buxom and deadly heroines; the game was critically acclaimed, but sales proved disappointing
Riiight... Beyond Good and Evil's low sales was due soely the to fact that the lead girl wasn't hot enough. Why, I sure know that's why I didn't play it! How about the fact that it was a niche adventure game with decidedly average scores across all the genres? Nah, couldn't be that.
This ain't news, this is just someone on a rant. And for crying out loud, will the "grrlgamers" out there STOP using Lara Croft as an example? Nobody has cared less what Lara Croft does for ages now. Nobody cares less what Bloodrayne does either, it's a sub-par slasher barely worth bargin bin prices.
Maybe I should have been offended when playing through Prince of Persia, that game was obviously sexist! Why didn't the female lead lose clothes throughout the adventure as well?
for a lot of people, /.'s in particular..
;)
that's a lot easier said then done.
You are about 99% correct though. The only time 'nice guys' get girls is when the DO 'settle', except in extreme cases, or get lucky (seriously... lucky)
Firstly, take me for my opinion and only my opinion. Secondly, HTML formatting is selected by default so my spacing and indentations were completely lost because I forgot to select text formatting. My perspective is that of a pissed off 19 year old. I'm just sick of people like you complaining about petty things like punc-tu-a-tion. wooedpy shit. loook at mee i m not spell i nngg rihghhttt. I hate you. go kill yourself.
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Who skimmed the article to try and see what Zoe Flower looked like and was disappointed not to see a picture?
I must say, slashdot is a great source of news. The only problem I see with it is the fact that people don't want to hear anything logical or rational, and when they do they bash whoever posted it like yo ujust did. Sure, I may have been irrational in my previous post, and may very well get banned for it. If you want a pointer in life, here is one: Don't talk down to people!
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Otherwise, how would they fill their biological function of finding a man and raising children?
They just tell you that to spare your feelings.
Screw you guys! I thought this was going to be a man page or a howto: :(
No text.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=135633&cid=113 20818
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Is it just me or is anyone else tired this sort of lament.
If this author has been around for so long then why hasn't she figured out what the above posters seem to already know?
Zoe, I hope one day you will "evolve" and stop complaining about things who's solutions are patently obvious!
Women, when they are honest with themselves desire the ultimate male like men desire the ultimate female. This is all subjective to one's own tastes.
People are so afraid to be alone they will ridicule their partner if they admire physical or artistic beauty that reveals an insecurity the ridiculer holds deep inside. More often than not their partner is unaware, but more importantly, even if they are aware and you still whine that you don't "control" the sole attention of your partner you have serious issues.
People are on borrowed time with one another. Grow up. You don't like it than go find a wimp for a lover who kisses your ass. If you want to learn and experience life than find someone who really doesn't worship the ground you walk on and demands the same from you. That way you both can learn to appreciate that relationships aren't about controlling one's perceptions of beauty but being able to handle the fact you aren't David to someone else nor Michelangelo to someone else's David.
Beauty brings silence and an awe inspiring touch of peace. It brings lust. It brings respect and it reminds us how undisciplined most of us are when it comes to impulses. Don't spit on beauty. Don't be a control freak who can't accept the mold wasn't broken after they were born.
Don't be afraid to be solo. Enjoy finding who you are and then you just might enjoy beauty in everything.
all geeks know computers are boxen in plural, as for the other kind of boxes I guess no geek will ever know them in plural.
I'm stunned. Stunned that there were enough women at E3 to form a line for the women's room...
One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
There's no way half life can be legitimally called GOTY 2004. Remember, ut2004, and WoW were both released in 2004.
If you're going to include a "evil empire" release like HL2, you might as well throw Halo 2 in as well.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
I think Samus of the Metroid series of games is a good example of a strong female character in a game. You can tell she is female without having to exploit her breasts or bare skin. She kicks butt all the while she's going against the gaming stereotype.
Kudos to that game's designers.
Sig cancelled due to lack of interest
Come on girls - men are no longer allowed to be what men are when they are worst (or best depending the view): Inappropriate
So it comes as no surprise to me that women must engage still stronger measures in order to motivate men to overcome their fear of retalliation and initiate contact anyway.
You dug that hole yourself.
that a 15 year old girl might break into the male only PGA for the first time is newsworthy and exciting in and of itself, regardless of all other factors
to get your panties in a twist about the prospect (snicker) like you seem to be doing means you are threatened by the idea, which means you have a problem with women, which means you're sexist
no, really
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I don't know why the majority of gamers play games but i do it cause just for a moment i would like to escape reality. A reality where i might not have a sixpack and have to look at butt ugly people everyday on the street and at work. Hell yeah give me that fantasy where i can be taller and stronger and just be surrounded by babes.
Men/boys (your main game demographics historically) like to look at attractive women. There is nothing wrong with this, it is a natural response.
Men do not have to stop acting like men just because a few women (I say "few" because I most women I know are OK with guys looking at girls, as long as it's not overt and rude) take offense. I say, let 'em make games w/beefy guys as the characters, if the female market will bear it.
Suppressing biological drives is tough... attempting to suppress the most important drive is a futile exercise.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
you're just slow
BWAHAHAHA
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You now have slashdot, eggs and bacon should be no problem.
From the article:
Inspired by a thinkgeek april fool's day joke, the iGrill is a 600Mhz Mini-ITX motherboard, an 80GB hard drive, and a 250W PSU, running Gentoo Linux, all enclosed in a George Foreman grill. Technically it's lost the grilling-functionality, but with a bit of tin foil on top of the heatsink and a fork-bomb, I reckon I could probably still fry an egg with it.
And yes, this webserver is hosted on the grill.
Your subconscious mind filters images before your conscious mind gets a chance. So in a crowd, you tend to notice the stunning girls, and look straight past the mingers. So whilst there may only be slightly more good looking girls in a crowd, say, you'll notice the increase. Later, to a friend you'll say, 'everywhere I looked, there were Babes!'. What you often mean is: 'Everywhere I looked there was some woman my sub-conscious did not pre-erradictate [sic].'
You notice v. ugly women [here used as partner, subsititute Man if you are a woman, or stay if you are a lesbian etc.] because you desire to avoid them especially, and the subconscious highlights them to ensure you conciously do so.
Also people sub-consiously find evidence that backs up assumptions they already had. Does it sound like this poster had an axe somewhere needing to be ground??
So even to her sub-consious, where breasts are still attractive to females [kown], as well as being a natural competitive eye-drawer for women, is it surprising all she sees is large breasted images??
Her subconsious is working overtime to highlight them.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
Wouldn't that depend on what how the programmers coded the game, not all programs are OOP.
"empowerment" is the word at which I stopped reading the article.
Words such as "empowerment" are FUD and should be avoided.
> Do you see any short bald dudes with a big pot
> belly on any of these boxes either? No, it's all
> he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles
Be serious. Why would I want to play a "short bald dude" character? It would be a really boring game since he'd probably have a str of 3 or 4 and a measly 15 hp, giving me hours upon hours of "level grind" until I can get his sorry lazy ass sufficiently trained to take on anything bigger than a rat.
A game is a product. A product is designed for its market. The success of a product is measured in sales and proffit. There is no other consideration.
She's 5'5.5"!!! Her columns live here.
I find it humorous how limp wristed some people are. They want to act without regard to consequence.
I hate to break it to you like this but I'm going to anyway:
People are not meant to be fat and out of shape. If you let yourself get that way from years of inactivity and eating junk food, then expect people to look down on you for being that way. Cry as much as you want about fixation on looks but the truth remains that being in shape is a *good thing*.
Cause...effect.... Eat crap, don't take care of yourself- expect to be fat, ugly, and frowned upon. Eat quality food, take care of yourself- expect people to notice your good health and physique.
The most vocal people who are offended and complain about good looking girls in magazines are those who want to eat shit and STILL feel good about it. The world doesn't work that way.
two words..
Dr Mario.
even women who arent generally interested in gaming at all.. can easily become addicted to dr mario. And thats just the entry drug..
so go out and find all the old super nintendo machines you can and stock up on the old classic dr mario.
Ughhhh... you just offended me on several different levels!
That people are as they are?
AFAIK throughout history, while the 'favored archetype' has morphed from Rubenesque to Twiggy to whatever, men have always been interested in women as sexual objects.
Perhaps the person assuming that we will 'evolve' not to feel this way or to organize our entertainment for these purposes is the one fooling themselves?
I've always wondered why it's the 'feminine' view of the world (negotiation, communication, empathy, non violence, nurturing, etc.) that we're supposedly aspiring to, leaving our bestial 'male' roots (violence, power, sex, etc.) behind? I mean, as any evolutionist will tell you, it's not a linear thing, and it's most certainly not a moral ascendance; it's whatever happens to offer a reproductive/survival advantage in a generation, gets favorably passed on.
-Styopa
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Well, you know what he didn't have.
I noitced years ago that straight guys love to play the large breasted women characters.
When my friends would play Mortal Combat they would always choose the women.
When will women finally understand that these "vitual girls" represent the ideal woman? Sheesh.
Is that women really ARE like in games. They have HUGE breasts, slender waists. And they really derive a certain level of satisfaction making their men happy.
So before you go and judge. Stop and think for just a moment about how you're turning 'being a woman' into an idea of a negative stereotype.
Dr. Mossman was hotter than Alyx (prepares to get flamed), and just as realistic (i.e., not cartoony or impossibly big boobed).
This is without a doubt one of the most truthful things I've heard although they do make breasts of female game characters larger than thier real life counter parts.
People who fool themselves about this subject need to get out a bit more and well... look at women. I don't mean to imply all women are curvacious, but it seems like many are well-endowed.
There seem to be a few recurring themes within this topic's threads:
Is it natural for humans to want to look at humans of the opposite sex?
Is it moral to use natural instinct as an excuse to not seek better behavior?
Is it moral to use sex appeal to sell games and other items?
Imaginary conversation between game developer and game player:
How embarrasing for game developers.
How many games could possibly be described by the tagline "Pray for a frontal assault!", if there was a hot chick on the ad? Nearly all of them, I'd presume. This is just generic crap.
This is proof that the entertainment c
Just shaddup and become what we obviously WANT to see and LIKE to see.
Fatties.
It's amazing how misunderstood the article is here. (Okay, I guess it isn't amazing since it's so typical, but I'm trying to close my eyes and pretend I'm in a world where people are reasonable.)
For those who didn't read the article, or who read it with preconceived notions about its purpose and thus didn't understand it very well, here are some important points:
Zoe is not taking a Feminist, Morale Outrage, censorship-promoting position. For the most part, her disposition is one of curiosity and neutrality. She at no point insults the games that use sexy female characters, and the point of her article isn't to try to convince people that there's a huge problem that needs to be changed. Instead, the article is basically her musing the questions of why it is the norm in the gaming industry, what the appeal is for both male and female gamers, and what (if anything) can be done to get more females into games.
Zoe also at no point suggests that men are solely (or even mostly) at fault. Hell, she spends several paragraphs on discussing a couple female lead designers who quite happily created female sex objects in games, and she mentions that those sexy female characters were generally well-received by female playtesters. In one case she mentions that some female playtesters liked the character, but complained that she was perhaps showing a little too much skin. The game designers explained that seduction is one of the things the character uses to her advantage in the game, and the female playtesters "bought into [the character] completely and were really excited about playing her".)
Zoe also at no point tries to suggest that game characters should be ugly and/or fat. She uses the female protagonist from Beyond Good and Evil--who is thin, but doesn't have big bouncy boobies or run around in lingerie--as a character that she doesn't think is being used as a sex object.
Now that those silly misconceptions are cleared up (yeah, right..), let me interject my own thoughts:
I am a man, and I am more bothered by the objectification of women in games than Zoe seems to be. Please note that I don't advocate censorship at all, and I don't think there is anything _ethically_ wrong with either creating or playing a game that uses women or men as sex objects. People like sex, which is why it sells.
I just wish that it wasn't so pervasive. I feel like my intelligence is being insulted when game designers are asking me to accept that their superbly athletic, heroic female main character is running around with floppy lard-filled breasts, and chooses flimsy lingerie as her outfit of choice when going into dangerous battles. There are games I've chosen not to buy/play because I felt like they were insulting my intelligence in this way (Tomb Raider and BloodRayne come to mind, not to mention the completely ridiculous DoA).
And that's unfortunate, because for so long we have gone with a scarcity of female main characters in games. And now that we have them, they are sex symbols more often than positive, empowering role models. I'm not saying I want characters in games to look fat or ugly; there's nothing wrong with making the characters attractive. But dressing female characters up in revealing lingerie, with unrealistically huge breasts hanging out, takes the focus of the heroine away from her strength, competence, accomplishments, etc., and puts the focus on her role as eye candy.
And, while I don't like male bashing feminists anymore than anyone else does, I still don't like the fact that our culture trains women to base their self-esteem on their appearance. And, FWIW, I think women are as much (if not more) at fault for this as men are. I see/hear women criticizing other women for their fashion sense, appearance, etc. more than I see/hear men doing the same. And women's magazines like Cosmopolitan are put together by women, reach a larger audience than any of these games do (hell, probably a larger audience than all of the games put together), and not only portray women as sex objects (without the accompanying heroic qualities you see in games), but also are filled with articles on how you, too, can reduce yourself to a mindless sex object.
This aint K5, you need to be much faster to be effective here. 1 or 2 bites is nothing to be proud of :)
I think it's a good idea to draw a parallel between video games, children's toys, and other hobbies.
I put forth that any video game, toy, or hobby that involves guns is going to appeal to more men than women, as a rule. You might see a woman who's formidable at Halo 2, or a female hunter with a big deer trophy in her living room, or a little girl who wants a G.I. Joe for her birthday, but I imagine you'll have to look a little harder to find her.
Consider that the games most popular with females don't center around the use of guns or other overt violence: Tetris, Sims, Pac-Man, Dance Dance Revolution, etc. There's nothing overtly feminine about any of these games, but there's also nothing overwhelmingly masculine about them either.
And then consider that most games these days are shooters of some kind. First-person shooters, space shooters, World War II and Vietnam epics, side-scrollers, and all that. Make room in that pie chart for the interminable flood of sports franchises that are the bane of neglected girlfriends everywhere. And save a slice for those games influenced by the Girls Gone Wild fad. Whatever's left is that which MIGHT appeal to women, if they're even any good. Is it any surprise that the video game industry is perceived as having a giant "NO GURLS ALLOWED" sign on it with the S backwards?
Making a video game that appeals to women is like making a board game that appeals to women. Not knowing my board game history, can anybody tell me if Milton-Bradley ever had to tackle that problem?
"Look at me, I'm having trouble communicating my ideas in an effective way, but I'm not willing to put in the time to correct the problem, and instead attack those who try to point it out to me!"
If you think role models should be found in a video game, do us all a favor and permanently sterlize yourself so you cannot fail horribly as a parent. If you can't deal with the fact that sex is a part of humanity and that has been quite obvious for millenia, buy yourself a pokemon deck and shaddup.
Fool.
There was not a line for their trough as well.
Any engine and in turn game you try to build without OOP will be as smelly a turd as this article and the fat crybaby who wrote it.
This is an example of political correctness stifling scientific understanding. Over the years people have been taught to despise and shoot down any stereotype, even if that stereotype has a basis in truth. Remember, not ALL stereotypes are bad or offensive.
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0 11 106.asp
_ th e_Boston_Marathon
What the original poster said is true. The brains of men and women are specialized for different functions. It has been proven numerous times that men are more optimized at visual spatial skills while women have inherent advantages in verbal and organizational skills.
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?
And as far as black people having more fast twitch musle fibers, that's not entirely accurate but there is some truth behind the story. It's not all black people, but specifically people who evolved in the Western Africa region do have a higher percentage of quick twitch muscle fibers and a higher testosterone level than those elsewhere in the world. They have a distinct advantage in anaerobic performance such as sprinting, and the records over the years spell it out clearly. Don't confuse this with "all" black people, because those who evolved in Eastern Africa, notably the high altitude region between Kenya and Ethiopia have almost the complete opposite evolutionary specialization. Not surprisingly, from evolving in a high altitude region, they have a larger lung capacity and better cardiovascular system (more red blood cells) than those who evolved at lower altitudes. They excel at aerobic activities such as long distance running.
http://www.africana.com/articles/daily/index_20
In the examples I gave above, look at the records. You have a huge pool of competitors from all over the globe yet people from a small area seem to win a *huge* proportion of events that *far* exceeds the percentage that a random group of people should win. I mean just take a look at the Boston Marathon. Kenya is not exactly the most populous country on Earth, but look at the results from the last 20 years when they started competing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winners_of
This is not a racist or sexist discussion, this is a discussion of the realities of evolution and the differences that we live with. It's not a reason to hate, it's a reason to understand.
I am not racist or sexist, I'm just not an ultra left-wing PC Nazi or an ultra right-wing Bible thumper. I'm just a regular guy who would like to throw the racism and sexism out the window and find out the *real* underlying causes, even if they are taboo to talk about. I'm firm believer in evolution and I believe that many of the differences you see in races/the sexes is due to evolving in different areas or doing different tasks.
What always makes me grin is the fact that women have been railing against the age old stereotype of 'boys play with cars, girls with dolls'.
But what do we find? The biggest dollhouse in the world is found on the pc, is called 'The Sims' and is just about the only game which has a uniformly large percentage of women playing it. And men like to explore and blow stuff up.
And then hear the women rail against the fashion/clothing/pink-barbie-doll games which are targetted towards women; with an example like 'The Sims', how can you blame the poor marketeers?
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
I have a real life. I don't spend $3,000 on hardware and hundreds on games to interact with average people in normal costume. That I get for free. I spend that much on games because I _want_ to escape real life for a while and enjoy a fantasy world where I have the biggest gun and all the women are clones of Jeri Ryan.
That's my target product. Myst you can keep for yourself. Thanks.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
...when your purchases alone determine the average age of the game buyer in the US.
The new frontier in gaming - commercial interior decorating for the Sims. The Turquoise Seashell Living Room Set. "Aren't the window treatments just to die for?"
This is Insightful?? More like Inciteful!
Her name is Ceren Ercen. Oh, and she is a registered /. user. She is nice though.
Try counting the number of magazines in a magazine rack that don't have a picture of a woman on the cover, very few. The magazines marketed toward women also have women on the cover. The fact is big breasted women help sell to every demographic, girls like to see other girls to compare themselves with.
Sindri Traustason.
Personally, I find the whole breast-obessive fixation by both men and women in our culture, quite hysterical.
How is my example unreasonable? You have to consider *why* stereotypes sell. They sell, because they are easy, they are simple to comprehend. They take less time to process, and when all you've got is a 30-second spot, the faster your audience understands your point, the better.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
That's alright, my friend's boss at Burger King was named Cindy Meadows.
On one hand I agree that stereotypes relieve the average person from having to exert any effort thinking about who or what they are actually dealing with. On the other hand, when it comes to selling, my opinion is that products don't sell because they are accompanied by stereotypes, but because of the stereotypes being used. I dare say that many male gamers wouldn't find it nearly as titillating if the large-breasted, nearly-naked female characters were replaced with the stereotypical representation of a geek or nerd.
it is posting to the proper sid.
This is not the george foreman grill story, you stupid nigger.
I disagree. Start playing the various anime-based dating games and you'll find that often, you're not playing the most stunning piece of humanity in the game. Admittedly, a minority of them are truly ugly, but they adhere a bit closer to the reality of the kind of person who desires to play a game where choosing the right dialogue choices will result in non-stop sex.
That said, there's an interesting double-standard there. Jackie's Fridge said it pretty well when one of the characters (female) commented that when you see an ugly guy walking down the street with a beautiful girl on his arm, you think "lucky bloke" whereas when you see a good-looking guy with an ugly girl on his arm, you think "poor sod." (admittedly, I tend to use less British slang, but I'm trying to get close as possible to the original quote without trying to access said site from work)
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.