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Can India Become A Knowledge Superpower?
krsmathews writes "
New Scientist, in its latest issue, has a special report on India.
It provocatively calls India the next knowledge superpower, though in a
introductory
story the caveats are laid out. It's
a reasonably comprehensive look at India's high-tech
research, pharma, bio-tech, space, and nuclear
industries. The U.S. R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five
countries put together, and India is
nowhere in the picture. "
Hah ! I'm sure Indian researchers had personal history deletion patented *years* ago.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
What I've been saying all along. We are telling brain-power to stay over there in India, rather than come over here to the United States. I wonder what it would be like if people like Vinod Khosla were told to work over there and don't come here to innovate.
It has everything going for it. Growing economy, a collection of research labs of U.S. and domestic companies, and a desire to pace with and outdo anything the West can throw at it. I'd put my money on China before I put it on India.
A blog like any other.
The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.
Granted, that's impressive spending, but how much of this has to do with a higher overall cost of living in the US, and therefore, higher salaries for your workers? Also, how much of that spending is directly related to the military?
Just wondering how much overall dollar output directly relates to one's place on the R&D totem pole.
Maybe is just another mistake, like many that we have seen in the world`s history, as industry India could make progreses but as a superpower ... i don`t think so.
Think like a hacker, act like a hacker, but never become a hacker !
that the population believes that a supernatural being being created man by pointing a finger and created woman from a rib of that man.
Much better.
The only reason "India is nowhere in the picture" is because the USA R&D is going towards the likes of making teeth whiter, and the 4 hour erection insted of "high-tech research, pharma, bio-tech, space, and nuclear" research.
No nation where cows do not fear Ronald McDonald cannot be trusted!
The Indian diaspora, like the China diaspora, is already a knowledge superpower -- as a look at the nationalities of the IEEE Fellows, the US NAS and NAE, and the equivalent academies in other countries will attest. All we're discussing here is the current mailing address of the talent.
Yes, we know how much science and technology innovations socialist countries in the EU are making.
LOL.
The one area where the USA has excelled over the decades is in cooking up innovative ideas and turning them into profitable businesses. The basic model of education in the USA has been based in large part on creative thinking. As tax-cut mania takes over and US schools do less and less educating, we can expect to see other countries start catching up in the area of innovation. However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate, I can't see them ever turning out large numbers of innovators the way the US has.
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
It does seem that Money = Arrogance though.
"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture."
Yeah, but how much of this money is going to find itself in Bangalore?
"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture." If you consider Europe as a country like entity then i am not sure the U.S. are so superior.
Yeah, what a bargain: a decade or two of magnificent economic growth accompanied by more and more extreme weather. I hope you and your kids will enjoy category 6 storms, tsunamis, arctic Europe and severe flooding of all coastland.
India appears to be doing incredibly well under the American Model. It's developing new technologies and expanding its industry and developing nuclear missiles at a huge rate while much of its population still lives in third world conditions, like Detroit.
I'm just wondering if gross inequality is a nessessary or sufficient condition for a country to undergo economic growth.
May the Maths Be with you!
Note that you're talking about the Jesusland (aka. Red States) - some of us (a minority, I admit) stopped believing in fairytales a long time ago.
Hint: Just becuase you saw it in a movie does not make it true.
"The one area where the USA has excelled over the decades is in cooking up innovative ideas and turning them into profitable businesses."
That's because we have the legal base to allow people to take the risks involved in being innovative. Hate IP all you guys want. Results speak for themselves, and countries that don't have the base (lacking or no enforcement) are less prosperous.
As long as the corporate funding for R&D in schools is as low as it is now in India, I don't think India (not Indians) will ever become a Knowledge superpower. I'm an Indian who is now in the U.S. It's just amazing on how many new things the undergrads in the US can work on when compared to how little the grads in India can work on. The difference is in extremes. Here in the U.S, even small univs undergrad team builds solar cars, in India, even the grads don't get enough money to work on something useful. Most of it is theory in India. Sad, but true. I wish corporates in India put enough money into R&D in Indian schools.
-ItsME
In my experience (USA working with OEMs doing high tech products) the cost of doing business with Indian Engineers is too high. They have a long (45 day) import delay for prototype hardware. The engineers who hire with companies I'm familiar with stay for training and then jump jobs. The communications difficulties (time shifted from USA offices) and language/cultural difficulties (different holidays, different work culture) make doing business awkward and less efficient than working with rural Americans (for instance).
Eventually Indian companies will run their own engineers and see some efficiencies that way. Then USA OEMs could see some serious competition. The only thing that would hold Indian OEMs back is internal costs of doing business, duties, taxes, crime, limitations on cooperation due to secrecy, government corruption, etc.. . Like here in the USA. The top dog world wide is going to be the country with the greatest efficiencies of doing business. Time will tell.
.. Blub falls right in the middle of the abstractness continuum. -- Paul Graham
And not just how the military factors, but also how the number is derived. Are US dollars expended on an outsourced project still counted as US dollars? I gotta believe that Indian corporations are only a tiny fraction of the revenue into those outsourced jobs. I RTFA but (typically) it didn't describe its sources, nor did I see that reference about the US R&D budget being bigger than the next 5.
If you look at a global corporation like General Electric, they've distributed the R&D to pull the best talent/resources from each region. They have research facilities in the US, India, China and Germany, and they are expanding all facilities including the US. I think this will be the trend for the future as opposed to total offshoring of R&D talent to one country.
The biggest flaw with your argument is that many Indians come to the United States for higher education.
ESPECIALLY in graduate programs. I would say that around half the students in Rutgers' graduate electrical engineering program are Indian (and I don't mean of Indian descent.) Over 80% of the students in the program are Asian (Indian, Chinese, or Korean), and nearly all of them are foreign and not just of Asian descent.
It says a lot of sad things about American attitudes towards education that almost all of the graduate engineering students at a state-funded school are not only from out of state, but from out of the country.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Is this supposed to be an example of irony? It sure seems like you fit the description very people you claim to be describing.
I am talking about scientific facts. Atlantic conveyor belt effect is what keeps Europe warm. It's driven by a saline gradient that WILL change when the polar ice melts. Hence, the conveyor belt effect would change and Europe would get as cold as Siberia. It's science, but you seem to be hell-bent on burying your head in the sand and go for the short-term economic gains - it will be our children who'll have to pay the price for our greed.
Hell, even in the extremely unlikely case that we'd later find out that the global warming was not caused by human activities, acting now is just common sense: emissions are bad in other ways too (health issues) and reducing them results only in economic loss. In fact, I don't understand how anyone would put economic gains first over loss of human life and environment.
What you say is NOT supported by scientific facts and reflects the inane hysteria supported by movies put out by Hollywood. Whether global warming exists or not, Kyoto is not going to do a damned thing about it - read it and weep
I can say that every bit of code I have seen from an Indian programmer (even those in the US) has been sub-standard (and typically re-written because of never decreasing bug counts). Sure they do excessive amounts of technical work. But very little of that work is as ingenous as work done by other cultures.
And you can deny it all you want. Culture has an immense role in the kind of technologies its people produce. A ridgid society will produce ridgid, uncreative engineers. America may have its faults, but the lifestyle and culture of Americans produces some of the most productive and creative people ever.
They
... don't innovate (copy is the norm in China).
... got social problems (a lot of poor people)
... got cultural problems (both countries have problems with terrorism). The U.S. has these problem too, but the U.S. tries to deal with it instead of trying to put the lid on the kettle.
... are not as materialistic as the Americans, so their domestic market is not as dynamic.
Sure, China and India are marching on to prosperity, but people tend to overstate things.
And apparently your class can't spell.
This I should mention includes inflated costs and bribes for bureaucrats. The Russians do much more and produce very durable space and nuclear equipment for less than one-third of our cost as Americans. This same reasoning presumes that if an individual lives on less than a dollar a day, they must be very badly off. I visited Uganda where a meal costing 4 US dollars was more than enough for me for two days!
Yes, India can and will be superpower whether we like it or not. It's not how much money one spends guys. The latest Russian aircraft costs less than half as much as our most advanced one, yet delivers more power and is even easily maintained. I wish our politicians get this into their heads.
From what I'm seeing, it seems to me that India WANTS to be a knowledge superpower. Following the massive outsourcing of IT to their country, they are seeking for ways to do it again in other hot fields, such as bioinformatics, drug development, etc. As the poster suggested, I think they are spreading their resources too thin. Will they succeed? Only time will tell. But from what I'm seeing on most bioinformatics related boards, most young Indians wanting to get in the field are not enough informed; most of the time, they want to study in bioinformatics without knowing anything about it, just because they've been promised jobs (it's a hot topic, you know?). Most of them don't speak English fluently too, which doesn't help us informing them.
................Thankyou."
Typical example taken from the Bioplanet forum:
"hi everybody,
i did my b.sc. in biotechnology(with 78%) from India & presently doing PG diploma in bioinformatics, but i confuse what will better for me, shall i do m.sc.. But i want job,so please help me by sending information about biotechnology & good colleges for doing m.sc. in Biotechnology & finally give me your valuable suggestion.
Tons of posts like this one on bioinformatics boards, daily. I hope this represent a minority and that most Indians are better informed. There's a difference between outsourced tech support, where what you answer to the client or whether you fix his problem doesn't really matter, and being a 'knowledge superpower'. Now don't get me wrong, I hope that they'll succeed; developing fields like bioinformatics (and R&D in general) can always use more brainpower, and I don't care where it'll come from. But R&D needs money too... and tons of it.
It's a gamble India is taking with this. No guarantee of success, but at least they're trying, investing in the future.
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I think China will eclipse India. While both will be taking top spots as the Western world continues to focus on financial dominance rather than technology research. But China will pull ahead simply because of numbers of brains and the fact that China is doing basic research while India is taking advantage of existing technologies, with very little basic research.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
And you're a scientist? It's a well known fact that every "scientist" who says that global warming is not caused by human action has ties to oil and gas corporations. On the other hand, the evidence supporting human induced climate change is mounting.
But you're absolutely right about Kyoto. It alone is not going to save us from global warming. We need much more drastic action and NOW, but Kyoto is a good start. Shame on America for putting economic growth first.
But how much of that US R&D expense is being spent in India, and how much of the produced knowledge will stay in India?
--
make install -not war
This will never be true until India gets out of the Mafia power structure mentality. Just google for stories of extortion in India. Unfortunately the USA is moving towards the Mafia direction with an attendent drop in it's productivity (ie MPAA, RIAA, Software Patents, etc).
So Sweden paid to provide a valuable learning experience to Indian undergrads?
I like to look at India like my precious daughter. She is growing 5 times faster than I am now, but she will likely not grow taller than I for quite awhile. The fundamental things holding back the USA are taxes, regulations, intellectual "property" restrictions, and just plain too much restrained freedom.
Eventually India will reach these barriers too, and so will the rest of the world until someone finds out how to persue and implement the "next generation" of freedoms. So even though they might eventually outsize the US because of sheer population - they will probably not surpass it per/capita until the next frontier of freedom is reached. (it will probably be ocean based communities in international waters)
The Indian Institute(s) of Technology.
If you have to ask, you'll never know.
Most companies in India are certified CMM level 5 (the highest level) using the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) conceptual maturity model. Most companies in the US are certified CMM level 3. This says a lot.
Y'know we used to take pride in "Made In America" whether it be clothes or cars. Odd how we'd rather outsource to another country employing 1000s in the foreign country so a few (read: execs) in American can prosper.
If the US is turning into more of a consumer based economy by importing more and less of a producer/exporter, then where does our income come from? What will these countries by from us besides food?
-HockeyPuck-> .
I think India would be less splitered culturally than China. While to most westerners China is just one nation it's really a huge mish-mash of cultures and languages - it's no gross exaggeration to say that in many instances somone living there can't understand the local language of someone who's only like an hours drive away.
Imagine someone from Detroit being totally unintelligible to someone from Chicago? (Ok, bad example).
Indians, according to me, were attracted to U.S because of the kind of opportunities(and pay scales) they got there. But now, the Indian politicians are finally showing some maturity and are waking up to encourage Indian talent. This is partly because of our president, who is a missile scientist himself. With a full fledged effort from both the civilians and the leaders,India will become a knowledge superpower very soon.
I took a trip to the south of India (Kerala, Banglore, and Channai (Madras). I spent a month and for the most parts avoided the tourist areas. My inlaws live far away from the nearest town in Kerala.
discoslure:
I'm a 31 year old white male whose worked in the computer industry since I graduated from college.
A few General Observations:
What India has going for them....
1) I've never seen a country so utterly focused on education (remember I spent my time in the South). Education is the only way out for Indians. The pressure is unbelievable for young people to perform in school. Everywhere you go you see signs for schools / education
2) English is spoken fluently among the college educated. English is the language of business in the south (in major cities, white collar type of work) b/c there are 19 "official" languages with an unbelievable number of dialects. Combine with the business process outsourcing (BPO), and you get a lot of focus around English language skills. I tried to learn the local dialect, but everyone wanted to practice English...
3) India graduates over 1 M engineers a year. There schools are extremely competitive. Areas such as Kerala have a 100% literacy rate, this meets or exceeds any Western country...
4) Motivation and drive. It's amazing what people will do to better themselves. This motivation and drive provides the foundation for the above. Spending a week in Bangalore was absolutely refreshing (and the food was great). To see all the young people full of life and excited was contagious... I can't wait to go back. I love seeing all the tech companies signs....
5) Economics. The largest middle class in the World, in sheer numbers. In India, it takes 2,000 USD a year to achieve a middle class lifestyle, that's ~1,500 EUR and ~1200 UK sterling. This middle class will drive the world's manufacturers to provide low priced quality goods, and the whole world will benefit.
6) Politics. Democracy works, although its not neccessarliy the kind the US imagines. A diverse group of cultures / languages get a long in a basic sense. Is it perfect no, but it gives me hope for places like Iraq.
What Challenges are ahead for India
1) Education: The focus on engineering has led to a culture that is not entrepreneur focused. It takes a diverse set of skills to move out of the BPO / Manufacturing mindset. Take Apple's IPOD. It took American design and a world wide supply chain to make this happen. The key is the design. That's what makes a product sell, manufacturing is important, but if you don't move up the chain, you will always have difficultly. Note to engineers: Get jobs that are customer facing and can't be outsourced...
2) Gaps There are 100's of Millions still in dire poverty and extreme education. If the middle class and the rich get too far ahead of the rest of the country, I think there will be a lot of social unrest.
3) Environment. India is a shit hole to put it nicely. If they don't clean up sooner rather than later, India will face a lot of health care cost for the population. Also, in Kerala, fresh water is an issue.
It's the old problem of changing mindsets. The tech version is a company that sold hardware and now wants to sell software or services only. Its huge change and most fail.
That's it I look forward to replies to others who have been to the south and I'm curious what your opinions are...
I loved it and I can't wait to go back......
"It's technical in a psychometric kind a way" -- C. Parish
I agree with you totally.
We have a culture where anybody can innovate. Look at all the companies that started out in someone's garage. There is the idea that anyone can do anything, the idea that a kid from the worst ghetto might someday become the president. Other cultures don't have that idea. It's a precious idea. The greatness of our culture and economy are based on it.
Having said the above, innovation requires certain conditions. People need enough economic surplus to be able to devote their time to something that may not pan out. People need a good enough education to be able to innovate. If we have a society where you go to school and then have to work two jobs to pay off your student loans, you don't have the surplus (time, money) to innovate; you have become a wage slave. If you have to sell your business to pay your doctor, you can't innovate. If you can't get a decent job because you grew up in a ghetto and the cops made sure that everyone had a criminal record, you can't innovate. If the Microsofts and Walmarts crush your budding business, you can't innovate.
The bottom line is that while I agree that we out-innovate the rest of the world, I sure wouldn't take that for granted in the future.
And apparently his class
speaks at least one foreign language.
A lot of it has to do with "keeping with the Jones's". Citizens in the us are happy living in their comfort zone, it is not disgraceful to be supported by government aid or drop out of school. People of the US are mostly fat, lazy, and happy.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
The above mentioned countries have a population of 53 million and generated 12.7% of papers, while America, with a population of 288M, published 34%.
One might speculate whether the social democracies with their high taxes and well-funded universities do more hardcore research. Here in America it seems that research is aimed more at the low-lying, commercially-viable fruit.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
It could be very interesting to know how much is used for non-military R&D, and compare that to the rest of the world...
Well, considering Vinod Khosla would sell his own mother for a buck, let alone screw over the country which gave him opportunity, we'd probably be better off.
Let the crooks stay offshore.
And yes, I've met the man personally.
Who cares how much India spends on R&D? What actually counts is what RESULTS are obtained. American companies and governmental agencies spend vast sums doing R&D, often with foreign nationals (including Indians) on the R&D teams. When the results are in, when some breakthrough is achieved, or when some product or device or technique is developed, the foreigners can go home and take the information with them. Net cost of that R&D to their homeland = zero.
May be that happened due to the excellent English spoken at your university? May be in the eligibility/qualifications your UNI asked for 'mayor's and 'batchelor's and got what they asked for!?
China can be the knowledge super power everyone else should worry about, more than India. The only thing that could hold them back is their own heavy fisted policies against spread of news/information etc, & that rises from paranoia (like all autocracies). What helps them is that they may be more disciplined than most other countries with potential, like India.
Most of the bigger companies have research centers based in India.And HUGE onnes.Most of them are based inthe south, in or around Bangalore.Theres GE,IBM,HP,Microsoft etc..
Not only does the American company benefit from these R&D centers due to the cheap & skilled labour(does research count as labour?) but so does India as it takes almost as much from the R & D as does USA.
Lord of the Binges.
Well, i've seen this first hand. I where working for a large corp and i got sacked because they outsourced all the scripting to India, so i'll got to find myself a new job because of this.
Bits of News
in order to have a knowledge superpower, you need the best communication and language skills you can get. If the Help Desks in India are any indication of their communication skills, they are not going to do too well. If they speak broken English with a thick accent that hardly any other English speaking person can understand, how can they communicate knowledge in the same way?
The only way they can do this is to do extensive English and other language training to speak those languages properly.
Written skills are a must as well, and in some cases, they actually have good writing skills.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
we have the brain power but not the resources but thats changing quickly. its obious that there are more skilled indians 'cos we can easily steal american jobs :P
I dont know from where you came up with this. Here is the Actual Details: Sex Ratio (Source - World Fact Book, 2003) -------------- India at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female 15-64 years: 1.07 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 1.03 male(s)/female total population: 1.07 male(s)/female (2003 est.) Enough said.
The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.
Was there a special reason for the submitter to put that line in, since I actually RTFA and couldn't find it anywhere, or was it just his sense of nationalistic angst getting the better of him because some brown people are growing faster than whitey?
That line kind of spoiled the article for me, because it brought me straight back to the reality of nationalist bullshit and the way it colours perception, although I'm sure you'll find that in almost any nation, including India.
US R&D expenditure is bigger than
Will it be bigger even after a super inflation to US economy?
R&D expenses for other countries don't have "inflated costs and bribes for bureaucrats"? It is funny that you give Russia as an example... in case you ever go there, you'll find out what "bribe driven" economy means pretty quickly. BTW, pure alcohgol is the most common form of bribe there.
"You mortals are so obtuse." -Q
This is not meant to be flamebait, but I'm sure the P.C. crowd will mod this to -1.
Anyway, some people are more creative than others. For example, America has invented practically everything cool in the 20th century, besides the CD and minidisc (Japan), radar (England), the jet and the rocket (Germany).
India, with its 1.1 billion people, has invented....nothing.
I used to work under an Indian VP, perhaps the most inspiring exec I've worked for. He used to say "In this organization there are no sacred cows. And coming from me, that means something!" I miss working for him.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I am talking about scientific facts. Atlantic conveyor belt effect is what keeps Europe warm. It's driven by a saline gradient that WILL change when the polar ice melts.
The Gulf Stream Current is driven by the semi-permanent high pressure system over the Atlantic, just as the Kuroshio Current is driven by the semi-permanent high pressure system over the Pacific. Even if the polar ice cap melts and changes the saline gradient, the semi-permanent high pressure systems will continue to drive the currents.
Funny, I thought "tax-cuts" were just political hype, and that the USA (especially middle income) has never had a true tax-cut. They just shuffle the numbers around, but in the end, the USA government takes more money every year.
Furthermore, I thought schools were about 95% funded by state and local taxes.
Also, I thought schools were getting more money than ever. When has the $$ spent per student ever gone down?
In fact, I thought that we continue to throw money at education, the USA just keeps falling further behind.
Where am I wrong?
"conceptual" / in theory/, thats all. That label is ok only for marketing the company name. No guarantees that inidividuals are always better that ones from companies that are not certified.
That being said, underkating such certification is a good effort, and very much advisable in "vendor/developer" neighbourhoods like china, india..etc, it will help in us vs next door guy pitch.
Many US startup companies are doing all their research in India and are only hiring management in the US. CEOs, etc.
So India will get a lot of those 'US' grants, through subcontracting and direct offshoring..
Does anyone know what the situation is for US programmers working in India?
Can US citizens work there? I would like to stay employed in my field, but there is so little in the US. Do they have anything like our H1B program except working there, for Americans?
It appears that India is where those jobs have gone..
You forget, for the cost of 1 researcher in USA, you can get about 10 of them in India or China...
It doesn't matter if USA spends more, it'll never catch up.
It doesn't really help that virtually all the grad students are from overseas too. Since USA doesn't let them stay really, guess where they're all heading?
USA is like China several hundred years ago. It's losing the lead but is too blind to see it.
"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture."
Dollars spent on R&D per nation is a pretty misleading statistic. China and India have done a great job over the last decade of showing that they can do great R&D for a lot less money than the USA. The USA, on the other hand, has shown that when a bloated bureacray wraps everything in red tape and allows contractors to get away with numerous multi-billion-dollar failures without penalty, things go right down the tubes. As long as India doesn't flush money down the toilet by giving R&D contracts to companies like Lockheed Martin, it will never need to spend remotely near what the US does to get better results.
Then perhaps you could explain why India is having an influx of brain-gain and why the US companies are outsourcing their R&D here instead of China?!
I believe smart people are able to account for variability in knowledge, education, and intelligence within a population. As the population increases so does the absolute numbers who fall into risky categories.
Why were you not smart enough to draw such a simple conclusion>
Earlier and even now, all the smarties come to US and contribute to US advancement in technologies. These technologies were invented by Americans+Indians+Chinese+Minority and not just Americans alone. In order for US to become a superpower, it trapped all these smarties, made their life comfortable, relaxed visa regulations, gave them green cards, etc. Even now, there is a special quota, around 20,000, for US employers to hire International MS/PHD students only besides the normal 65,000 quota reserved. Now, more are staying back and contributing to India's advancement in technologies. America is recoginizing India's power and not just cheap labor. So, it is setting up R&D's in India, to save cost and make the smarties still work for them, which again contributes to US advancement in technologies. Comparing China and India, China will become the superpower in hardware, while India will become in Software. Even though we are nowhere in position to compete with China in Hardware, but, by 2035, when India's population will be greater than China's, we will be a serious competitor. But, India's role exists in both the countries. So, does America's.
Can somebody please tell me what the US's comparative advantage is again? Innovation? I don't think so. To think we are significantly more innovative than Indians or Chinese is arrogance. Besides, their population is so much larger that they have a bigger pool of ideas. even if the per-person creativity was by chance higher in the US, they would come out ahead.
Taking risks? Companies now dump the risk off to the third world also. VC's often are required to have an "offshore strategy" in their business plan to get funding.
Table-ized A.I.
So what? That means jack shit.
Public education was debated for years, but only funded when US industry needed workers for factories..
Now that need is ending, so there is a big debate about public funding of education, even if it is going on away from public view..
Many Republicans feel that schools are basically preparing people for jobs that dont exist..
or that wont exist in a few years..
Why increase people's expectations unrealistically, they say...
Scary, but the very idea of public schooling is endangered in the US now..
By greed..
Overall, the sex ratio is 1.08 males to females. For children (which factors in sex ratio at birth) in several districts like Rohtak, the ratio skyrockets to 1.25 boys to girls.
When you see Vinod Khosla, the male Indian students in your classes at MIT, and their ilk, you are looking at animals. They fight with tooth and nail to stay in the USA but reject Western values. They talk about how "great" Indian society is.
Great. Maybe this will force American students to get off the couch and start learning things.. Or maybe not. Sputnik was a great impetus for learning science. Nine Eleven was one for learning Arabic.
I wonder when the US will start to feel even more threatened as other countries start to grow. with cheaper labor forces etc..
Got a question about UNIX ask it here : Unix/xBSD Forum
1) Release and advertise "Slashdot India"
2) See productivity drop through the floor
3) ???
4) Profit
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.07 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.03 male(s)/female
total population: 1.07 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
Those are quite reasonable figures, and quite comparable to the United States' figures. I think you're confusing the figures in India with those from the PRC.
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.13 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2004 est.)
in short: gandhi failed, the poor bastard
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
of course now the japanese waste insane amounts of money that isn't really theirs yet on spectacular public improvement projects...
...they beat up their nerds instead of exault them.
Table-ized A.I.
"that the population believes that a supernatural being being created man by pointing a finger and created woman from a rib of that man."
Oh yeah! It's a scary notion living in a country were everyone isn't an Athiest, and an Evolutionist.
How are we a better nation by swinging to the opposite extreme, and relegating religion to a "don't ask, don't tell" status?
The sex ratio at birth in New Delhi is about 1.20 (1000 / 807) males to females. The CIA fact book is out of date.
Look at those male Indian animals in your engineering classes. You tell me whether they are hypocritical bigots when they talk about how "great" Indian society is. Isn't "it" amazing that these Indian supremacists mouth their supremacy in the comfort of their Western apartment or residential home?
Hmm. I remember this incredibly intelligent discussion about how evolution is being outlawed in Kansas schools. Wow, Americans have it all figured out.
How the hell did "Can India Becmome A Knowledge Superpower" turn into "Hippies Vs. Red Necks"?
You should read your own article, chump -- it doesn't say what you think it says.
(Yes, I'm feeding a troll. The problem here is that it's one of those "all that is required for evil to triumph" situations -- the AC is feeding the bigotry behind anti-Indian sentiment in the US, and those people need to be answered. I don't give a shit about him, but third parties need to know that what he's lying.)
India and China now own the Internet industry. We're still dabbling in it, having invented it, but it's clearly theirs to advance, at this stage.
This is a $1 Trillion investment of American capital, all the goodwill and intellectual authority of which has been ceded to a foreign nation.
The only other thing that could take a $Trillion out of an economy is a war.
So it's very like India and China defeated us in a war without having to risk anything themselves.
The people at the top of the corporate system in our country surrendered our economy willingly to the enemy, in return for a slice of the profits.
Which, as I read history and the law, makes them traitors.
Here's 2004 in review. As you can see (scroll down to see the graph) there was a crash in mid-2004 immediately following the election results, as a socialistic party with communist allies came into power. Support for the government grew after it was announced that two of India's best finance ministers in recent times were going to have prominent roles in the government, one of them as the prime minister. Also, as the leftist partiest didn't interfere with government policy, the market rose, hitting new highs towards the end of the year.
It's now at around 6500, so it hasn't changed much since last December.
Common Europe is a formidable economic powerhouse, comparable to the United States: Further evidence of global economic conflict between Common Europe and the United States: Iraq switched from US dollars to the euro in 2000: However, following the US invasion of Iraq,
-kgj
-kgj
Eventually Indian companies will run their own engineers and see some efficiencies that way. Then USA OEMs could see some serious competition.
China is the step ahead on this... Just look how Huawei sucks up engineers from companies like Cisco, Lucent Technologies and Nortel Networks, and transfer their knowledge (proprietary or not) into their own product line.
R&D with no IP = $0
I always hate writing out rebuttals to posts like the parent who talk like paper tigers "There cannot be glitzy progress ignoring 75% of the people". Tax rates are pretty high in India. Everything is taxed to kingdom come. But still the poor are just that, poor.
India is going to go to hell unless they control their population.
"At least, we don't have to sweep unpleasant facts under the carpet". Yes, for 50+ years now we having been wallowing in self-pity because we like to keep these facts in front of us. I cannot or should not make money because the person next to me is still poor. This is the attitude past govts have employed. Look where India is today.
Did you know that if the Indian govt directly gave 2.2 $ to every Indian who was classified as living below the poverty line, India would have no poverty at all. India spends a 3+ $ on these programmes and yet the poor Indian probably does not see more than 5-10 cents of it.
"In the absence of any corrective measures, I am sure even India can be like China. It has been acquiring a steady 6-7% growth rate for the past 5 years."
Yes, India will be in 2020 what China is in 2010. Mark my words, 2008 olympics is in china, 2016 is in india.
I haven't been to AP in a few years but what I do know is that Naidu did make Hyderabad liveable and attract a lot of companies. These companies create high paying jobs, meaning there is a trickle down effect in the economy.
Would you rather have Naidu who courts companies or some populist leader who dances to the tunes of farmers for their votes?
Being a former US resident, and a current bangalore resident, let me assure you that the bangalore(karnataka) govt went out only because of the drought. The previous govt was so much fucking better than the current dharam singh govt in place.
If you read the newspaper, you will see that the current govt is fucking pathetic in all aspects.
They have made bangalore a living hell with traffic mismanagement, no funds for infrastructure. All the chief minister does is give empty promises. His rural promises are also ring hollow.
Think about it. Bangalore's industries provide 70 % of the state's revenue. Why will you want to mess with that and the govt has taken bangalore and its citizens for granted. Many software companies are expanding, but not in bangalore. In other cities and states.
Read India Today" Dec 13 2004 issue "No Bang for the Buck" to know about blore. The current govt is going to pay for their lackadaisical attitude.
Now let us talk about China. It has one govt(whatever your opinion is on the political issue, lets focus on the economic one).
One govt means that it can focus on economic issues without political distractions. The chinese govt is putting a lot of its energies into building the infrastructure in China, be it power, communications, highways etc.
Just compare that with India. Here politicians cannot end squabbling among themselves, economy is down on their list.
Do you how many small cities in China are getting their own airports? How long is it taking to build the bangalore airport? See "indian bureaucracy is least friendly in asia" july, 04 in the deccan herald.
Democracy is a beautiful thing. That is why see what Bihar is today. Democracy works when your population is under control, not out of control with 30 million births a year.
Compare the infrastructure: in, cn. For amusement, take a look at just one feature in Iran's factbook, ir
Compare the number of runways above 3000m that India has and the number that Iran has.
That will give you an indication of how pathetic indian infrastructure is even when compared to a economy like Iran which has been under sanctions for 20+ years.
At the current rate India is progressing, it w
We may see some money and jobs going from west to the east but the east doesnt have a mythology/culture to support sustained technological progress. Both china and India are dependent on the west not only for the markets, but also new ideas and direction for progress. Left to themselves, they would both wither away.
Sorry. I confused the 1.20 with South Korea.
Nonetheless, my point still stands. You see gangs of male Indians in American colleges and companies. They talk claptrap about how great Indian society is, and they send their kids back to the Indian fatherland each year to imbibe them with Indian culture. These Indian animals reject Westernization.
Guess what? They kill Indian girls so horribly that the sex ratio is horribly out of whack. There are 1.10 Indian boys to girls. The normal ratio is 1.05, which Japan and the rest of the West have.
Do you think that "it" is rather ironic that the male Indian animal types SlashDot articles about how great India is yet he does so from the comfort of his home in the USA? That Indian animal should put up or shut up. He should stand by what he says and get the hell out of the USA and go back to India, which he considers a "haven".
Yet Western countries spare no effort to go about converting Indian hindus to christianity.
And what are they thmselves doing with it well for starters molesting kids in churches.
Besides we are capable of growing VEGETABLE so we eat that. Which crop are you growing on Snow by the way, we dont need to eat cows to survive but you do.
They COULD become a superpower... if the average IT worker over there didn't have their head up their backside. I work for a company that has a support and R&D office over there. The work we get from those offices is consistantly late and pretty much total crap.... Turnover rate is measured by the minute so even if you do get one worth a damn, he's gone in a week. Companies are starting to pull out of there because it costing far more money to clean their mistakes than any cost those offices save.
The last 60 years of history in Japan make nuclear weapons programs a bit of a touchy subject. Besides, Japan has had the protection of the US nuclear umbrella and as such, has had no need of an independent nuclear program. (but, I'd wager they have the seeds of one at the ready and could get it up and running quite easily should the situation warrant it..ie, the US pulls its troops out of the region).
Every country that grows has political and economic pressures. Even the US suffered protests and riots in the 60s. In the US, the outlet for these pressures was democracy and protest, India which is also a democracy will have similar such outlets, but China has none. It is a powder keg waiting to explode. That's why I would bet my money on India long before I even touched China.
Don't be supprised if the Chineese leaders try to deal with these pressures by becomming more authoritarian like the Germans did in 1939. Sure the Germans in early 1940 had strong economic growth, but as history has taught us - economic growth without political freedom growth is very very dangerous.
Yet over here, all Indians I've worked with do just barely enough to get by. Copy & paste is their preferred coding method, and architecture and proper design are nowhere to be found.
There was one exception in my 5 years in the industry - the guy was extremely, unbelievably bright. He wrote a book on ATL. He typed so fast I couldn't see his fingers, and he was the best programmer in 50 people team. But he's just an exception that it seems reinforces the rule.
Quantity doesn't matter. Quality does.
If you look at history from the mid to late 19th century on, one thing in common is all countries which industrialized were demonized and attacked by the industrial world - from the late 19th century to the mid 20th century that would be Germany and Japan. Japan is really the last country to become an industrial nation, although South Korea is on the way. Industrial nations always try to smother industrializing nations on the edge of joining them in the cradle. Every nation since the beginning of the 20th century to push itself towards industrialization has had a socialist revolution, namely, Russia and China. Both were backwards, feudal countries - not how Marx envisioned things turning out certainly. They seem not to have been able to sweep capitalism out of their houses, but they did get rid of all the existent feudal structures. As the article says, India still has a lot of the colonial, feudal structures in place. China always resisted colonialism on some level, and was not under it too long, while India, like Ireland, was under colonialism for many centuries. And Ireland only got going with a large injection of money from the EU.
India will not be a China unless it has some radical changes, and not the kind Wall Street, the World Bank, WTO and IMF proscribe.
In the USA, the Universities get significantly more money from foreign students (they have to pay full tuition), and in addition, the foreign students are entirely dependent on staying in the good graces of their department and advisor in order to avoid being deported. Hence they are favored institutionally and professionally
In the USA, the Universities get significantly more money from foreign students (they have to pay full tuition), and in addition, the foreign students are entirely dependent on staying in the good graces of their department and advisor in order to avoid being deported. Hence they are favored institutionally and professionally.
I think this might depend more on the field of study. I'm a graduate student in chemical engineering. In my field US citizens are normally preferred. There is alot of funding which is only available to US citizens, and for some reason higher enrollment of US citizens is considered more prestigious.
Also, in chemical engineering, most students don't pay for higher degrees. Almost anyone accepted for study will get a fellowship of some kind. So while the university might want foreign students because they would have to pay higher tuition, the people who actually pay for the tuition (the Department/advisor) are also responsible for determining wether or not the students are accepted.
With the exception of Indian and European students, US citizens are also preferred because of language barriers. With all things equal, most advisors (again in my field) would prefer to deal with people who are native english speakers.
So why don't we have many US grad students? Most would rather get jobs. If a chemical engineer considers the money they are not making by staying in school, grad school becomes an economically costly option. This is true even if you consider the average earning potentials of someone who does and someone who does _not_ earn a higher degree in chemical engineering over a long period of time. The person who goes straight into industry after getting their BS will typically make more money.
-- john
In the 1950's/60's the former USSR had a head start on fundamental R&D in many areas that the USA couldn't even touch (like space and math). But over the long term they simply didn't have the "social/policital infrastructure" to support them and the USA prevailed.
China is in a similar positon, if they don't go democratic quick - they are going to be totally unable to handle the changes and demands that a modern economy will bring and social chaos will ensue.
India and China now own the Internet industry.
:).
Some people would beg to differ.
Are there any Indian or Chinese companies with this kind of web presence? I doubt it.
Also, remember that outsourcing isn't happening to be traitorous, but to cut back on costs and increasing costs (although some people are finding it cost-inefficient after all). So, technically, the US economy is making money by outsourcing.
There is a cost to the job market, of course, but introducing robots on production lines got lots of people fired - while creating new supervisory posts. From what I hear on Slashdot, it sounds like many companies are hiring again. If that's happening, it might well be the best of both worlds - outsource the codemonkey jobs, while doing the important stuff in-house, paying programmers well for their time.
Of course, as an Indian, I have no particular problem with something which is creating jobs in my home country, as well as resulting in plenty of foreign inflows
Cows are sacred. Or didn't you know? ;)
has their tech support "outsourced" to India, I'd imagine those people are learning at some kind of geometric rate. And it's likely they're learning what not to do, when you're trying to get people started with computers and avoid a monoculture.
So, yes.
India is likely to become a knowledge superpower, probably within the next decade.
Quite craven and self-serving if you ask me.
Spoken like an Anonymous Coward.
-kgj
-kgj
All figured out? Sheesh, I'd be happy if they pronounced "nuclear" correctly ...
Thanks for the approximate figures from CIA world factbook which are at best inaccurate and obtained from other sources. After all, the CIA does not conduct census in India and spying won't get you these numbers.
s ratio. htm
Also the difference between 1.05 and 1.054 in India (which now has about 1.08 billion people) is approximately 0.004*1.08 billion/2 = 2.1 million people! So even 3rd place of decimel matters a lot and yet a third decimel place does not show up in the CIA numbers.
If you want a realistic analysis, please read
http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/apr/hlt-c
which brings out the real facts underlying the sex ratio problem.
Frankly, China has a similar problem but India is much worse. And it shows. Here in the US universities, there are far more women from China than India in higher studies, a reality that shows India is indeed socially much more backward.
Frankly, there are more Chinese women in US universities doing graduate studies in high-tech fields that US American "white" women but thats a digression from the main topic.
Prepare to be assimilated. Resistance is futile. This will be your last warning.
Um... off topic?
WTF, at least moderate with the right moderation!
Read the title of the submission! How can this be off topic?
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
And the U.S. put billions into putting a man on the moon, that served little to no purpose, only to 'beat' russia.. while the US knows poverty like western europe does not..
Yet, the world still likes to kiss american butt. Propaganda helps sell yourself, gain respect and admiration.. and that becomes a launcher for economic and political growth.
And, the way the US has been approaching the world, India knows that unless you're a nucleair power, you get pushed around.. once you have nukes, you're approached with respect and care, in the most diplomatic ways.. which makes Iran and N. Korea and all the other states who feel threatened by the outside world (US in particular) to reach for nukes, as sad and scary as it is.
But who makes these rules? We do.
Image should mean nothing, but since the majority of the people in the world go by terribly ignorant perception, image is everything. And so huge sums of money spent on image building, will, unfortunately, pay off.
If the Hindutva fascists gain power, India will go back into prehistory. A worldview where nothing is real is not conducive to the development of systematic science or engineering.
Naah, it didn't work for Japan, did it?
... wasn't Slashdot Japan started in 2000 sometime? Wonder how Japan's been doing since ...
... don't think we've ever slashdotted an entire nation before ...
:|)
Wait a minute
*gasp* oh my
(this would all be so much funnier if Slashdot Japan hadn't been founded in 2001
LOL!
How about games?
Does chess count?
Is christian science not an oxy-moron?
-William
God is everything science has yet to explain.
Most Chinese people are not formally educated. Uneducated labor is only going to be worth so much... as support staff for those with better educations and such. Populations stopped being considered supplies to be captured during war around WWII. Now it's the natural resources and goods that matter, and to hell with the people. If that tells you anything about the value of a dense population to a nation. It might be better to say that America has more natural resources that can be put towards building it's economy rather than supporting an overgrown population.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
I hardly see how any nation that will eventually be nuked into oblivion by China or Pakistan can become super anything.
Ever try to call HP for support? If these experiences are any indication, India is currently just a source of cheap labor- not skilled labor.
Plentifull cheap labor does not an IT powerhouse make. There needs to be a *lot* of cultural and economic change first.
-MrLogic
You need to work 'belongTo' into your sig, 'owner' isn't quite funny. ;) And remove the 'zig' column from the query results, for great justice.
My StarCraft-playing experiences tell me that R & D is not as important as the size of your work force.
It is acknowledged by all India experts that the "K" problem needs to be solved and permanent peace established with Pakistan before India can have growth rates close to China.
Otherwise India will continue to remain a "sleeping elephant", even though it has come out of the "Hindu" rate of growth in the past decade or so.
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
Speaking as a parent - more money is needed for education. I continually need to donate items like paper, pencils, and pens to our elementary school so that the kids have enough supplies to get through the year. The kids have to learn in stupid portables that are used continuously for YEARS when they were designed to last 5 years or so and to get the school through a short time while permanent expansion was done (the money for permanenet expansion never comes through). Fire all the bureaucracy you want - there isn't enough cash.
India. a superpower.
A country without roads. A country that still has the plague!
Oh thats fucking scary.
The software techs we've used, both in B'Lore and as US employees are not detailed oriented. While I understand you'll have a range of abilities in any grouping they have been, by and large, 80% bad.
There is an arrogance among some that prevents them from seeing any problem in their work.
I will try to hire US, European as much as possible.
This guy isn't just talking trash.
Your average Indian student in Sweden applied to dozens of English and American universities before he settled for Sweden. As such, there is probably a much higher proportion of Indian students who have come here with forged degrees or qualifications here than in the US or Britain. We here plenty of these stories from compsci students here.
I was just paid to correct the English in an Indian students thesis. This thesis was as though it had been xeroxed out of "Tricks of the 3D Game Programming Gurus"'s first chapters. He told me he hadn't in his last eight years of education once used Unix (Linux, Ajax, etc) once. This man was supposed to have had three bachelor's. Additionally, a friend of mine in Lingkoeping tells me of a bit of a scandal surrounding a student who had copied a thesis verbatim from a uni back home.
Fuck RASCIST bastard who mod me troll, whatevre that is being.
select * from base where originalOwner = 'you' and currentOwner != 'us'.
0 rows returned.
if we can only get that stupid "infrastructure" stuff down. Telecom, Power, basic emergency services. Outside of the large cities, it's pretty tough.
Isn't this just like the '99 & '00 claims that New York's "Silicon Alley" was going to overtake California's "Silicon Valley"?
India is just the latest fad. Offshoring is just the latest fad.
The parent post rambles around a bit but I take it that the major point is that the infrastructure in India is broken and that without infrastructure support you can't move into the modern world.
There is more to infrastructure than just phones, highways and clean water, although these may be the most important part. Infrastructure also includes a working legal system and something approaching "the rule of law".
The book Maximum City by Suketu Mehta makes the point that India is broken on many levels, not the least in the legal system where there is no redress when someone rips you off except to go to the local Mafia.And then there is the violence between Hindus and Muslims. And so on and so on...
I don't see India as being a superpower in the next century. I see China in this role.
Just take look at topcoder.com's School and Country Rankings.
Here's a short extract for your consideration:
Fight Frist Psoting!
Browse Slashdot with 'Newest First'!
In countries where prosperity grew rapidly, there was always less free flowing capital. Capital flows to the lowest point, poorer countries. As soon as any country starts becoming prosperous, capital leaves and the people without the capital get poorer. This is what is currently happening in the US and Europe, and the other almost first-world countries. Since only a small percentage of the people have the capital, and most of the rest just have to work for a living, this is NOT a good thing. Globalisation and free flowing capital is good for a few, but bad for most. We should start to think about how we want the world to be.
Indians have one fatal flaw. Their culture is highly resistant to change.
India is not free country either. India is an ultra-conservative society where people are routinely coerced into arranged marriage, and gays are persecuted. Homosexuality is illegal, a crime punishable with live in prison. That's between 100 and 50 million oppressed gays, more repressed people than any other country in the word , other than China.
None of the expected advantages of democracy can be expected on a country that represses sexual minorities; the intellectual vanguards can not flourish without sexual liberation. Further more, sexual repression inevitably translates into AIDS pandemics. India HIV numbers are going up, fast and steady. Keep in mind that this is a society where you can't talk freely about a condom, let alone buy one on your local village store. Answering straightforward questions about your sex live to an AIDS prevention outfit or seeking help for AIDS may translate on ostracism, being cut off from your family, physical attacks, and/or live in prison, without access to medicines.
Other countries on the region (China, Thailand) actually respect sexual minorities, and are managing to reign over AIDS expansion much better. Yes, India may have managed to get an impressive engineering work force, but how good is that if your workforce is going to be decimated by AIDS on a few years time?
Most of the India is living in dark ages. The gap between rich and poor is increasing. Yeah, there are few exceptions. IT is limited to a handful of areas. Indian farmers have one of the highest suicide ratios. Take a look at this BBC story. And its common story. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3004930.stm Girl weds dog to break 'evil spell'
I am in India, a software techie. While it is great that I get good opportunites to extend my love for computing into my job, I think I will *feel* India has arrived when porn is legal here.
:D). It is a pity that not much porn gets made here though. The only ones that you see are what seem to be hidden cam ones ... or amatuer vids. :)
:)
... yea it has been increasing, atleast in Delhi. Girls arent afraid to move around in exposing dresses (god bless them!), gays arent too afraid of coming out in public... ... if they come to power (you know who!) then just maybe I (we?) are doomed :(
Here is why:
Porn in India is not legal. This is, sadly, true. But ofcourse bootleg VCDs of porn is available (going rate? ~30 INR about 70 cents
I am waiting for the day when Vivid outsources to India. That will be the day when I will really *feel* that India has arrived
As Salman Rusdie said, porn is the index of free society... i will extend that to say that porn is also the index of prosperity.
India is not too hot on freedom of speech either. I once did a lampoon site of a local leader who in my opinion is a Hindu Fascist... the site featured him as Hitler. I am glad I did not mention my actual home address... for before I knew it, I got to read in the Times of India that a terrorist group had made a site on this real big wig politician... they mentioned that the CBI was on the case. I was shit scared as I had done the site right from home. But nothing happened . (those were the early days of the internet in India).
Doing this site, I believed that it was perfectly legal to do... the constitution of India does grant me freedom of speech -- only in theory. I was younger then and more idealistic and thought for sure that I would not be convicted in court if I did get arrested.
Now, a little wiser with the ways of this democracy, I do not think so... atleast one press guy who did an expose got his ass to jail and was butt-fucked (not literally, but he'd prefer that to being beaten tied up naked, for sure). I am lucky that I was not caught by the low tech intelligence
Another way I measure the progress of a country is its level of tolerance
yea this is happening, we *are* heading in the right direction... if only the asshole politician i lampooned and his breed of die hard Hindu Fanatics dont screw it up some time soon
Dont make a better sig, you insensitive clod!
Sure there are crappy American programmers (albeit the percentage is dramatically lower), but there's an important cultural difference. A halfway decent American programmer is more likely to tell his boss to fuck off when he puts forth an unrealistic schedule or requirements. An Indian will not say anything. He will just copy&paste shit all over the place and call the resulting spaghetti code a product.
Yeah, how dare those brown dot-head pseudo-nigger animals be proud of their culture, don't those monkeys know that if it ain't white it ain't right?
Come fellow AC, join me in a cross burning won't you?
"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture. "
I'll bet if you normalize R&D expenditures for salaries in India vs. US, the amount you accomplish/dollar is much closer.
I heartily agree with the parent. One more thing I would like to add is that human effort is really cheap in India. If you recieve less money for your work, then you wont have any incentive to innovate and you will only stick to those things that bring you the maximum money.
You can already see this in action. Every guy and his grandma there wants to get into software. Yeah it's great that people are becoming IT savvy, but I'm talking about people chucking careers in English, History, the Pure Sciences and joining Tech Support companies. When you have a monoculture it is not good. It is always better to have diversity.
The long term improvement of a nation comes from RnD and I don't see a bright future for India if it's researchers migrate to the US and Europe as they don't have many opportunities back home.
Is christian science not an oxy-moron?
;-).
Actually, no; the oxymoron would be "fundamentalist science".
There have been a great many scientists who were Christians (or other religions). Charles Darwin was trained as a minister, for a really famous example.
Most Christian denominations don't have any particular conflict with science. It's the fundamentalist churches that cause the problems, because they're the ones who insist on a "literal" interpretation of the bible, and refuse to accept that their God would speak in metaphors or other poetic language.
Also, fundamentalists in some other religions have a similar conflict with science. It's not really a Christian problem so much a fundamentalist problem.
Even the Catholic church has pretty much made its peace with science (though it did take them a few centuries to forgive Galileo
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Yes fuck em all. Be a true patriot
Many companies such as Google, Microsoft, and biotechs are opening research offices in India. The "organic" Indian R&D spend may not be high, but the fact that other countries are investing in Indian R&D is of note.
We may not become a superpower. But, we will certianly play a bigger role, close to superpower in IT, ITeS, Bioinformatics.....everything
True that farmers are ignored by the Govt. But, after couple of years, that will change.
Population: Current generation seems to go according to the rule(max: 2). Besides, we will witness a huge reduction in population somewhere in 201*.
"That line kind of spoiled the article for me, because it brought me straight back to the reality of nationalist bullshit and the way it colours perception, although I'm sure you'll find that in almost any nation, including India."
Speaking of colors and perception, your kind of fucked up in yours. The only one spewing angst here is you.
Besides we are capable of growing VEGETABLE so we eat that. Which crop are you growing on Snow by the way, we dont need to eat cows to survive but you do.
Try looking at a map, photos, and temperature data sometime, you ignorant clod - by some miracle, the countries west of you don't all sit under a permanent layer of snow.
I would assume you were just joking or something, but based on my experiences with 99% of the Indians i've dealt with, that level of stupidity does not (sadly) seem out of the question.
About 5 years ago, I lived next to an Indian couple in Detroit, Michigan. The husband would periodically beat his wife and kids. I could near the screaming through the apartment walls. One night, my conscience got the better of me, and I finally took matters into my own hands and knocked on their door.
This huge Indian guy answers the door and starts pushing me around. I could hear the sobbing in the background. He really pissed me off, and I pulled out my 38 special and blew his head off.
His wife testified that I acted in self defense, and the police did not pursue charges. The wife and kids remain in this country, and I testified at their immigration hearing.
I cannot tell you how much I hate Indian culture. When I see the sh|t that these male Indian animals write, boasting about how great Indian society is, I think about that Indian wife and her children. I have only 2 words for these male Indian animals. They are "FVCK YOU!"
Let me guess...you've never visited nor lived in India. What percent of the population are you stating is forced into arranged marriage and what percentage of the population is gay? Got any real numbers to back that up. Perhaps one should take that high powered critical eye and focus it in the mirror. Or perhaps you forgot that there are eleven states in the U.S. that have changed their state laws to ban gay marriage? In fact in the state of Michigan there are lawsuits against several state funded institutions challenging domestic partner benefits and denying medical health care insurance to gay partners.
That's between 100 and 50 million oppressed gays, more repressed people than any other country in the word , other than China
Interesting...where did you pull this amazing number of 10% - 5% of the population of India to be homosexual? Honestly, what deep dark crevice in your rectum did you pull that number out of?
the intellectual vanguards can not flourish without sexual liberation ... need I go on?
Got one word for you. Kamasutra. If someone such as youself who claims to be sexually liberated has ever read it. It talks about same sex situations and many other unconventional encounters. Oh by the way, did you know India has a very open eunuch population? Did you have any information of these folks getting arrested? I DON"T THINK SO. Eunuchs during the days India had monarchies where used as high level spies and held highly respected posts in the kingdom. They are no longer used in convert or clandestine activities but Indian society leaves them alone. I'd also like to add that the Great Britain seemed to do fine after Oscar Wilde was imprisoned. Don't get me wrong I'm a Oscar Wilde fan, but you statement does fall short of the facts. As for intellectuals the list is long and distinguished. Tagore (literature), Raman (physics), Chandrasekhar (phyics), Ramanujan(math), J.C. Bose (physics)
India HIV numbers are going up, fast and steady. Keep in mind that this is a society where you can't talk freely about a condom, let alone buy one on your local village store. Answering straightforward questions about your sex live to an AIDS prevention outfit or seeking help for AIDS may translate on ostracism, being cut off from your family, physical attacks, and/or live in prison, without access to medicines India has a growing AIDS issue and they'll need to tackle that issue, that I'll agree. Now the fact that you state that "a society where you can't talk freely about a condom, let alone buy one on your local village store. Funny, that the Govt. of India actually makes a condom subsidised for the lower income classes. In contrast the current United States administration is pushing for "abstinence" from the faith based programs and trying to reverse Roe vs Wade by changing the bench for the supreme and appellate courts. The administration also is cutting funding of programs that dispense condomss. I could argue that India has more freedoms for sexual choices because we don't picket in front of abortion clinics and deny people the right to choose.
Other countries on the region (China, Thailand) actually respect sexual minorities
You're a troll. "China actually respect sexual minorites". Good Lord, what kind of crack are you on?
And what it takes is democracy. This is a nation that not long ago elected Sonia Gandhi, an Italian-born woman, as their prime minister (although she graciously stepped aside and gave the job to someone else), and that national sense of "harmony" is the greatest asset of Indian people. There has been a dubious comparison between China and India, with the emphasis being put on a major hurdle India has to overcome, namely, its significant population of the poor, as if China had no poor folks -- nothing can be further from the truth. China has a cunning censorship that basically airbrushes its citizens living in poverty out of the rosy pictures of gleaming high-rises and manufacturing facilities in Shanghai and Beijing. The abundant success stories of Indian immigrants in the U. S. will serve as historical anecdotes for this future superpower. Now, here is the commercial -- I wrote a novel that deals with Tibet, and the novel is published in its entirety online at: http://losangelesnow.blogspot.com/ . I will caution that those who prefer not to hear the truth about Tibet should not bother to read it.
Sun and Fun
One thing people here are also forgetting about China is that due to their draconian policies to reduce population growth (while an admirable goal) has led to a country that is quite old. In fact, the Economist recently reported that for every four grandparents, there are two parents and one child in China. This has led to quite an imbalance in the size of the workforce relative to the population. One child now has to help take care of a larger number of relatives on a per capita income that hasn't increased to match such a change. I forget the exact statistics (it was in the Economist from last month and I cannot find the article now) but the average age in China was something like 28 in 1990, rising to 33 in 1995. And looking to the future, the proportion of those over 60 will rise from something like 10 per cent of the population in 1995 to 22 per cent in 2030.
Now, besides the obvious problems like the massive reduction in the young workforce over the next couple of decades, many of you have pointed out that healthcare in China is quite archaic and is not equipped to handle (when couple with all its current problems) something like this. IMHO. While India's healthcare system is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it will not be hit by the problems of a large swath/percentage of its population turning old all at once. I think this will give rise to a semblance of stability.
They're a nation of robots. Robots cannot lead; they can only follow and do what they are programmed to do.
They can enhance, they can simulate/emulate, but they severely lack the spirit and originality that has made other countries great. And judging by any standard other than the technological, India is such a polluted backwater (socially as well as environmentally) that unless they resolve all the issues that plague their infrastructure first, they will always be viewed as third world beggars trying to play a first world game.
I guess that tells a lot about how biassed you are. No offence here but isn't Western countries responsible for all the ills. Apartheid, Nazi, Slavery, you name it.
And besides I am based in Western country and looking outside my Windows all I see is snow. Also I went to do grocery and found none of the products "Made in Western Country".
I don't know why you think you are so smart, going by the way things are going Indians will have the last laugh.
Thank you for your point. That's just what the goverment plans to do---"transforming into something similar to America as peacefully as possible". To achive this, bloodsweat workshop, crackdown, nationalist and even corruption are tolerated in this country these decades. Someones think it is the price to transform such a backward country to a modern one. Due to the nature of chinese(looking at the history), the country too often crashed all at once. And foreign invasion may be too easy!(1 milion barbarians can easily conquer 100 million civilized population) This transformation may not be as safe as chinese goverment think. But they have to do it.
Consider that over 3000 years,Inda was a cultural and scientific power house when Europe was still rolling around in its own shit. eg. Pythagoras theorem was proven in Inda before 1000BC - ovef 400 years **before** Pythagoras was even born.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
The U.S. R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together
Ahh, yet another example of CIV3 paralelling our world!
Because you might just be a racist or a bigot.
Technology and Engineering should not be confined to one ethnicity.
The only reason that American Management doesn't want American Engineering is that they don't want to pay the engineers what they are worth.
So they hire Indians and Chinese. Indians are better at kissing ass.
Chinese are better at acting like the expert.
Neither group has a higher percentage of good engineers than the American and European and African groups do.
Basically any idea that Indian or Chinese engineering is better than any other type is either stupid nationalism, which is silly and not really a problem, or it is racism and bigotry which is always a problem.
I have observed that there is a certain racism is some people. Surely we don't want this to be considered a worthy trait.
After a time it will all equalize again. The United States monied class doesn't want to share with the techies any more of their money. but people will do what works and real engineers of any nationality will always be valued and have good work as long as we have rational, and non racist policies.
Can we have that please, here?
Can't we do away with the evil racism and the stupid nationalism?
What it really all comes down to is "how badly do you want it?"
It doesn't matter how much money you spend or what talent you have available... if you want it enough the money and talent will come to you. This applies in all things in life.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Yes. Considering companies now prefer Indian employees over Americans, I think India can easily out do us. Send more jobs there and we can trade world status.
Bullshit, I'm a pink fuzzy alien wise ass (looky looky I can type the actual word!!!) and when I came to earth in the 1820's I went and bought some niggers to work my plantation but one of them got all uppity so i blew his head off with my laser musket gun and since i owned his black ass no one cared. I can't tell you how much I hate black culture but now when I see shit like niggers who know how to read i think back to that uppity nigger I killed way back when and just drag their black ass into space where I eat them.
I know what I'm doing is the right thing because of my single experiance with that one nigger so I know all the millions of them are bad.
"you're" is the word you're looking for.
The real problem with education starts at home. When both your parents work, do not promote ethics and morals, and your subjected to environment that promotes sex, drugs, and scandals as a way of life for the elite through the media...then it becomes a SOCIAL problem and not one based on finances.
My sister-in-law is a school teacher here in Austin, TX. She has told me countless times how students are more violent and abusive they are. Worse yet, trying to punish them can often cost you your job out of the aspect of maintaining "political correctness".
Gee, and people wonder why our educational system is fucked up. The problems with it are not a cause, but a symptom of modern American society.
If I ever get married and have a child, I'll either send them to a private school, or home school them myself. And most important, I will NEVER ship them off to daycare as though they are a burden (sic). A proper society for any nation starts at the home.
Life is not for the lazy.
Even if you want to live in India, we wont give you Visa. We already have enough people, we dont need more immigrants, not any one from west, we have learnt our lesson from our past experience with westerners.
What a load. Most totalitarian regimes were put in place by more powerful countries, first and foremost among them the USA. For example, the massacres (a.k.a. "economic and civil reforms") in Indonesia were second only to the nazi holocaust in terms of human suffering and death toll, yet they were initiated and lauded by first world countries.
i a.html
I highly recommend the following linked page for a very interesting and eye-opening account of the massive double standards involved when first world countries deal with totalitarian regimes, using the recent reforms in indonesia as the example. The content was written by John Pilger, a man who has won british journalism's highest award twice, so be assured that the reporting is of the highest quality.
link: http://www.inminds.co.uk/globalisation-in-indones
Also, your second point, that the guy doesn't have valid complaints about law enforcement because the cops aren't beating his door down is almost 100% stupid. Just because you don't agree with someone dosn't mean you should just spout any old crap to dispute them. Or maybe you should, it did get you to +4 with very little effort..
sorry
I think [ being an Indian ] that in my entire reading of slashdot over the last one year, this is one comment that seems to come from mind rather than just following the heart and politics . People seem to believe that IT-industry is the panacea of all Indian troubles. However if you closely examine companies like Infosys, TCS, CSC and other companies all they are doing is @labor@ work or to be more educated @service@ work. R&D in India is stilll pathetic.
I really don't remember When was the last time I used a software research and developed in India. Yes components of VB.NET were built in India but Microsoft is NOT an Indian Company. Adobe Photo Album software was designed and developed in India but Adobe is NOT an Indian company. Google, Intel and other are doing R&D in India, but when was the last time I came across ground breaking paper in Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry or for that matter even in Computer Science.
I really laugh my ass out when someone says India is an IT superpower, I have friends at CSC and Infosys they are ready to admit that the only reason that they have got jobs is because of cheap labor in India not only because they are skilled programmers.
Facts:
a) In India you will have to pay at least Rs 500 even when you want to register a complaint against police. Better commit suicide if the criminal has a relative in @Govt@ department.
b) Educational system is pathetic. Never does it encourage one to think. Yes we have IIT's but did you know that every year 250,000 people attempt to get into IIT and only and only 3000 get through. IIT's definitely are great but look beyond it.
c) R&D is pathetic, too much focus on encouraging the service sector is only causing harm to the overall skill level. Today as Americans are willing to go in for higher graduate studies, a lot but not all are satisfied in India to work at call center.
d) Politics, As you mention every year we come out with these policies like providing
Rs 250,000,000,000 to the poor when more than three quarters goes to the pockets of corrupt politicians like Laloo. He spends what
Rs 200, 000,000 on his daughter's wedding when is monthly salary is
Rs 25,000
e) And where is the Internet growth, What are your figures on Broadband in India, still 0.01%. I live in North, there is still now sign of any one offering affordable broadband. That is all when in US you have more than half of the total population and more than 75% of the students having brodband.
Several reasons put into india being an IT-superpower
a) English speaking nation, this is by far the most important reason. Nobody would have been here if half of Chinese could speak English.
b) Skilled labor, this also can't be ignored but doesn't China has that it certainly with its R&D facility stand a better chance to beat us.
My advice to people coming India, come be my guest but do visit Bihar or any other place than Banglore. If you are able to come out of Bihar @alive@ please come and have coffee with me.
Why do these people think that trying to improve the usa's foreign policy makes a person into a tree hugger, or an america hater? Honestly, responding to these complaints with shit like "go hug a tree" is the most ignorant shit i've ever heard. And it's not just slashdot, not just the internet. If you ever go to fark.com and read the political flamewars, you can almost always spot a right wing post by looking for either insults or assumptions about the person they are replying to. P.J. O'Rourke's latest book, Peace Kills, supports right wing policies by ripping on hippies and liberals for about 180 pages (but it's excused because the man is quite funny). Bill O'Reilly with his most ridiculous item of the day. it is a really effective way of denouncing/discrediting someone's argument, and it's quite easy to do as well. maybe us liberal scumbags should start fighting fire with fire...
Mate, go learn how to think for yourself instead of believing all the shit you're told by people who you think are better than you. I can see why you joined the military, as you obviously haven't got an original thought in your head. Hey, here's a good idea, why don't you go shoot some foreigners, they're not as good as americans anyway. Obviously you're a bit of a submissive bitch, because you seem to value a country by how many rich assoles it contains. to clarify, you and your kind contribute basically didley squat to the quoted 50%, that figure is made possible by corrupt assholes who don't care if you live or die. but good on you for volunteering your life for these people, not many of us are that stupid. oh yeah, and your economic insight is astounding. why don't you take up teaching your retarded little theories about socialism to your buddies at the hunting club or wherever the fuck you go, i'm sure they would love the opportunity to cement their ignorant and confused views about the world even further into their giant oversized retarded mullet-clad heads.
Hmm, i'm beginning to see why only stupid assholes write shit like this. i feel like an absolute dipshit for typing the above, but who knows, some clown will probably mod it up.
sorry
Oh, come on. You're not Swedish, because if you were, you'd be much better at English. I can't imagine how anyone could be this bad.
And the U.S. put billions into putting a man on the moon, that served little to no purpose, only to 'beat' russia.
I disagree - that single but expensive act inspired an entire planet [those who had comms at least] and showed us what could be achieved. I agree that it had no military advantage, no economic gains and minimal scientific outcomes, but hey - it was 'cool' on a planetary scale, and some things are worth doing 'just because'.
I wouldnt want to pay for it, and if my government now said I had to pay $400 a year tax to subsidise interplanetary travel, I would be initially pissed off - but once that ship reached its destination I 'd realise that it was worth it.
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
> >Let me guess...you've never visited nor lived in India
> 3 month there so far.
I guess living there for 3 months makes you an authority on India right? I've lived in Chile for 3 months, so that must make me an expert on the region and pass sweeping judgment of where I lived. I know people living in Kolkata (formerly Calcutta) for the past three years. The one thing they do miss is broccoli. Broccoli isn't contraband in India, it's just in low market demand for it and it's just that its difficult to find and you have to know where to get it. Apply, that to your porn and other magazines. Adult or X rated videos are sold at small video stores in big cities. As for sex toys, well...very low market demand for vibrators and a. beads is not unusual when the large portion of the country is poor and can't afford to spend it on frivolous items like that. Most people in western countries don't walk into a shop to buy items from a sex store, they order it from a catalog, and have it mailed to them in a discreet parcel. The problem is that most mail is misplaced or stolen in India's postal service. Just because you can't find the items you're looking for in the first 3 months of living in a new country, doesn't mean you have the right to write it off with your cursory evaluation of it. I migrated to OS X two years ago and I'm still finding out those little gems or ways of doing things that where equivalent to the ways I used to do tasks in the past with other systems.
> Nonsense. I'm Spanish.
Well, mucho gusto to you too.
> > What percent of the population are you stating is forced into arranged
> > marriage and what percentage of the population is gay?
> >Gay activist usually claim that up to 10% of the population is gay. More
> > conservative assumptions are around 5%. 100/50 million figures is only for gays, add arranged marriages.
You're siting me numbers from gay activists. Great, give me real numbers from a credible source (e.g. WHO, UN) , otherwise you won't have much to flout with me. You know there are rather vocal and dogmatic Mac acolytes who'd like to think that they have 10% of the US market. They'll skew their numbers like counting old 8 year old Macs as part of their stats, even though those machines aren't seeing any use. I've also seen Linux fans who claim 5% of the global market. Vocal and over enthusiastic members in minorities tend to have the habit of exaggerating their numbers.
> >Honestly, what deep dark crevice in your rectum did you pull that number out of?
> Well, that was homophobic. Let me guess, you are Indian. Or American.
Funny, you've never heard of the expression "where did you pull that out of your ass". So, all of a sudden I'm homophobic? You must play that homophobia card all the time. The danger of over using it in unnecessary scenarios is that if becomes less effective you use it poorly. If you're going to jump to conclusions to allow me to call you myopic, unexposed, judgmental, racist against Indians. Then again you might not be an anti-Indian bigot or hope that you are not.
> >You're a troll. "China actually respect sexual minorites". Good Lord, what kind of crack are you on?
> Homophobic, rabidly anti-American, and not very knowledgeable. Que te jodan, capullin.
Of course I MUST be homophobic and anti-American, and uninformed according to you. Funny, you should say that about some one who was trying to educate Michigan voters last year on how amendments to the state constitution was preventing the rights of same sexed couples to health care benefits and other legal ramifications of those laws. I must be SO anti-american when I spend my time (vacation days), money and energies last year participating in the democratic system in the land of the free (that's the ol' U.S of A). By the way I
Interesting definition of a weak candidate. Some how the fact that Bush did not complete his duty in the Texas National Guard seems to evade you and the fact that you bought into the RNC spin and Swift Boat baloney really is quite telling about your ability to make clear reasoned judgments. Its amazing that as a U.S.M.C you're more impressed with a man who's family had political connections to get him out of Vietnam tour of duty versus a man who volunteered to go to Vietnam to serve.
I am a Libertarian
That explains so much. Libertarians are the polar opposites of communists, both however share quixotic notions of their utopian societies.
Let me lay the facts down for you buddy, since you're highly confused watching your Fox News propaganda. We went into Iraq because we had incorrect intelligence that Saddam had WMDs. Are you with me so far? Then after looking like a bunch of morons to the rest of the world who we gave the finger to (e.g. "Old Europe") for starting a preemptive war that was clearly unjustified. The administration puts the spin on it that it was all about promoting freedom in the middle east. Okay ... now for the bad news.
You many come down on democracy all you want. However, democracy is truly the most peaceful system around. Most nations that deal with one another in a democratic fashion will almost never resort to war
Lets talk about freedom and democracy for a second since thats what both you and I can agree that is a good thing. Why is it that we support and ally with a military dictator who over threw the democratically elected leader in a coup d'etat on one side of the world and who's country has been selling nukes to all the pariah nations. Then using questionable intelligence invade another country that didn't have nukes and then put the spin on it by declaring the promotion of "freedom" and "democracy" in the middle east. I fail to see how the public don't see this glaring irony. By the way has anyone see Bin Laden around?
The Man Who Sold the Bomb
Khan's Dangerous Game
Musharraf Named in Nuclear ProbeFebruary 3, 2004
Pakistan Ended Aid to Taliban Only Hesitantly December 8, 2001
Musharraf: Bin Laden may be dead23 December, 2001
Pakistan's leader thinks bin Laden deadJanuary 18, 2002
Bin Laden trail is cold, Musharraf admitsDecember 6, 2004
A Hostile Land Foils the Quest for bin LadenDecember 13, 2004
Protest at Musharraf's army role 19 December, 2004
So much for us supporting "democracy" and "freedom"
With North Korea's recent declaration of possessing nuclear weapons. One should stop to ask Pakistan's military or ISI (Intra Service Intelligence) how the hell N. Korea, Libya and Iran all got their nuclear weapons. How Pakistan traded their nuclear know how for N. Korea's medium range missiles.
The best part of all this is that A.Q. Khan, the father of the Pakistan atomic bomb is consider to be a "hero" in his home country and is
We have like 50-75 years before robots take over all the menial jobs. When I say robots I don't just mean cool androids, but I mean like "McDonalds as a vending machine", where that vending machine takes the frozen patty, cooks it up, forms it into combo-meal of choice and spits it out on a tray with a computer generated smile. Meanwhile, Roombas will clean the lobby and the toilets will clean themselves.
Walmart, similar story.
Mass transit, similar story.
Get into politics now, it may be the only job left!
India is currently the world's knowledge superpower mainly because they have a value system which emphasizes knowledge. Other countries emphasize style, image, and symbolism to achieve technological superiority. India emphasizes knowledge to achieve technological superiority.
India, an over crowded country, the only thing working fine is the peoples common sense. This is the reality for the prople living here. For instance, the owner of a manufacturing company named Kirloskar, needed some eqipment for their manufacturing plant. So they planned to buy it from a company in US. While knowing about the equipment, Mr. Kriloskar asked the engineer, what if there is a sudden power failure while the process is on? The engineer was confused so he started to see the blue prints of the machine after failing to understand what would happen, he called upon the designers of the equipment and the designers simply said that they never thought about case of power failure on the machine! And they realised that power failure had a devastating effect on the machine. So Mr. Kirlosker could not buy the machine as there are many times that power failure occur in India.
A lumbering democracy is much preferrable to a draconian system which can take drastic steps in any direction. The key is debate. It takes time. I want to be able to live in a livable country, not necessarily in a superpower.
And did you overlook the small fact that Iran is an oil-rich country?
The fact that the United States' research budget is enormous does not necessarily imply that the United States is more productive than another nation. Actually, GDP is a measure of that. But what the article looks at is a very specific type of productivity--that is, technological advancement.
To my knowledge, there aren't any specific indicies that measures this, but if there was, it would be the Asian countries at the top, probably Japan and S. Korea. Technological innovation is far greater there, where inefficient bureaucracies and large monopolies cannot stop the popular culture from shifting every few months, thus driving the demand for constant innovation. India and China are also major technological powers, by sheer size. Many older technologies lsuch as coal power plants cannot be implemented on such large scales, thus driving up research demand for more efficient means of doing things.
The amount of money put into research means nothing in terms of how much new knowledge is produced, and certainly has no bearing on the pragmatism of the knowledge.
While I don't believe that there is such a thing as useless knowledge, I do think that even if the US was the largest research producer in the world, the Asian nations are getting a larger bang for their buck.
Some people would beg to differ.
Are there any Indian or Chinese companies with this kind of web presence? I doubt it.
I thought I'd just pointed out that those are now Indian and Chinese companies.