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Web Access Over Power Lines
anaesthetica writes "The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies. From the article, "Broadband over Power Lines (BPL), with investments from big-name companies including Google and IBM, is beginning to move beyond small trial projects to deploying systems for large communities." Earthlink may offer BPL as soon as next year. Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."
I think that it's a good idea, but users won't be switching soon. The only thing that might encourage users to switch to the power providers is if they can provide a way better plan, or they just want the convenience of paying it off on their power bill.
I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
Recently BPL companies offered to "notch out" that part of the BPL signal that conflicts with ham broadcasts, but the controversy appears to be far from settled.
The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?
On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?
Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.
And anyone else who uses any kind of radio. BPL still has massive radio interference problems, fullstop. Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.
Once again it'll be announced, it'll be trialled, it'll fail. I said it almost every other time someone else comes up with this too good to be true notion.
I have seen this talked about all over, atleast once a year. on websites tech journals, Mass High Tech did a special on it last summer for some new start-up offering the service within a year. as the article says : She's less optimistic about BPL's future. "It's kind of touch-and-go," she says. "There have been many, many trials but only a couple of commercial offerings."
because according to this report, this is sorely needed.
Albuquerque PC
Interesting article. The power companies may be just the competition the marketplace needs to bring down some of the prices associated with having too few (inferior) competitors. Imagine the power company offering a vonage like service as well. They could probably rope a bunch of people on the bill convienence alone.
If you look about the web, Australia has already announce trials in Canberra for it and in some other places the progress, I believe, is more advanced.
I always wondered where this setting was...
The next gen of these devices are meant to be a problem for airplanes (though I feel their fears will only be realised if an entire neighborhood were to be using these deveices). As quoted from here.
"When you've got high frequencies going through wires that aren't shielded then those wires act an antenna because the carrier waves - the waves they're having to send down the power lines - are in the same frequency band used by short wave radio."
That means that using the mains as a home network could interfere with your enjoyment of shortwave radio, which is used by lots of broadcasters around the world, including the BBC World Service, and air traffic control.
I've tried using a couple of these out at home, and though the performance is obviously poor compared to cable, it's more than adequate for browsing the web.
Great, now instead of the Cable companies or Telephone companies having the stranglehold over my broadband connection, I got the Power companies too!
Its like the Trinity of Evils controlling all of the Broadband access.
It has been shown time and time again that data over mains cables leaks radiation big time. But still they try. Unless this is stopped, the interference to radio services will prevent them being used. They won't stop pushing it until it wipes out the 999/911/112 services, then it will be too late.
I've been reading slashdot articles about this for years, and it's always claimed to be just a short time away. I know that probably at some point it will actually be just a short time away... but is there any better reason to believe that this is it?
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
This was mooted 14 years ago. I can't see any big changes. Bypassing the local transformers will still cost a shit-load of money.
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
-William Brendel
Provided they take down the exisiting powerlines and replace them with high tension co-ax. It's not just Ham radios that this will irritate, its everyone. The FCC and its international counterparts have restrictions on EM waves not just because they interfere with communications, but because they interfere with everything from aeroplane and medical electronics to cell division.
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
It's an interesting technology, for sure. According to the article, the signals are sent over a fiber optic network, whereas I would have expected that the signals would piggyback on the main electrical signal. If this is true, I'm not sure how it is different from the fiber optic lines available from the phone company. Maybe the power company has more lines available?
But I think that the most significant hurdle to all of these broadband technologies is keeping the network running even in a disaster like an earthquake or hurricane. Power lines fall down, are torn off the poles by falling trees, and generally succumb to events that they should not encounter everyday. In a lot of places, power lines are run underground, which gives them added protection from above-ground disasters.
Phone lines, too, are affected by such disasters, though in many places the lines are laid under the earth. However, in a large earthquake like is expected in the Bay Area, shifting land could easily sever those lines, stranding thousands of people.
If my satellite television is any indication, satellite internet is at the mercy of storm clouds. A heavily-clouded storm will typically knock out my satellite reception for a while.
Hopefully we can come up with some way to provide uninterruptible broadband service. Better yet, several ways of providing such a service. I think we are only scratching the surface as to getting ubiquitous broadband service to the entire country.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
Could this mean that some people in the middle of the country (literally, both meainings) could finally have access to Broadband other than satellite?
Sure, Ham's oppose it. It grinds the shortwave to mush.
Sure, the power companies oppose it. It's been found repeatedly to be un-economical for them to implement.
About the only groups that do support it are the FCC (it helps out with their broadband access for enveryone issue) and those who live where the tele/cable co have not gone yet. While I can sympathize with those who don't have high speed access yet, this isn't going to be the way to get it.
Using a wire high-voltage (high-noise) uninsulated (from a RF standpoint) copper wire is a great way to make white noise radio signlas, but not all that great for data transmision.
Broadband over powerlines has been in use in Iceland for at least 2 years that I know of (end-user, not testing) Why is this big news now?
http://leenks.com check it
"Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."
Of course. It's the ham operators that actually understand the potential for BPL to cause harmful RF interference. The rest of the world won't care until it affects them personally. Ignoring the advise of ham radio operators is like ignoring the advise of the bomb squad when there's a bomb in a subway. Ok, so it's not as drastic, but it's still quite silly.
My lame blog.
were cheesed? Except for the Virginia Hams who had exceptionally salty language for the power companies. The country Hams were milder in their criticism and the baked Hams didn't even notice.
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Considering that no one has yet managed to shut down 1/3 of North Americas cable or phone networks in one shot. Is BPL really such a good idea?? >:->
BPL is already available in my area from a company called Current Communications (current.net) They offer a line for 40 dollars a month that is 3mb down / 3mb up independant. For 3mb up, I say fark the ham radio operators. =)
Most of the places that they want to install this are RUAL areas. You know, small towns that typically have small populations with little money for infrastructure, like in West Texas. That means above ground power lines.
Personally, I think that any town that buys this stuff is going to get stuck with a bunch of junk that they don't understand. Especally when the company they contract with goes out of business or gets bought out. This sounds like a great oppertunity for the fly-by-night folks.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Yes, the Amateur Radio community is in opposition to BPL, due to the high degree of RFI (radio frequency interference) that BPL puts out. The problem that not as many people are talking about is that this will also affect many fire/rescue/police radio frequencies, which occupy the same radio spectrum as the BPL systems interfere with. This could potentially cause severe problems in emergency situations. So no, it's not just a bunch of us HAMs whining about BPL "ruining our hobby". We also interact with emergency personnel in emergency situations, severe weather, natural disasters, and yes, even terrorist attacks.
It's a [______] thing...you wouldn't understand.
I remember a reading a lot of /.ers talking about how BPL is infinately more feeble in comparison to things like fiber lines and other forms of broadband connections in the works. Now, though, news of BPL comes at a relatively opportune time:
DSL carriers no longer have to share thier lines with everyone else, so all the little guys may whither and die. Here comes a new technology to rescue! And it comes through your powerlines! However...
This idea still rubs me the wrong way when I think that a blackout will leave me without my desktop AND internet access through what's left of my laptop battery...
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
"But I think that the most significant hurdle to all of these broadband technologies is keeping the network running even in a disaster like an earthquake or hurricane. Power lines fall down, are torn off the poles by falling trees, and generally succumb to events that they should not encounter everyday. In a lot of places, power lines are run underground, which gives them added protection from above-ground disasters.
Phone lines, too, are affected by such disasters, though in many places the lines are laid under the earth. However, in a large earthquake like is expected in the Bay Area, shifting land could easily sever those lines, stranding thousands of people."
If you don't have power, it's unlikely you'll be able to use your computer. And if you have a laptop, what is powering your wireless router?
Besides, if there's a major earthquake or something, I think internet connection should be pretty low on your list of priorities.
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
Southen-Electric are already providing broadband over powerlines in some locations here in the South of England, and have been doing so for some time. The broadband side of the company are known as BlinkBroadband.
Have you bigots forgotten ftp, whois, telnet, pop3, smtp, archie....?!?!?
Damn you all!
I've actually had BPL in the Allentown, PA area for a year now. What cancellation?
main(O){10<putchar((O--,102-((O&4)*16| (31&60>>5*(O&3)))))&&main(2+ O);}
LN2 is cool!
I think the most interesting use of this would be here in the UK, as currently to get any form of internet connection you're pretty much locked in to a telephone company.
If you want an xDSL you have to have a BT phone line, no two ways about it, this means that even if I want to exclusively use a service such as Vonage, or Skype I still have to pay the line rental for a phone line.
If I could get BPL I wouldn't have to have the extra cost of a telephone line, and could freely use Skype, or Vonage for all my calls.
and not mess around everywhere with everyone?
Java Oracle Linux Enthusiast
This sounds strikingly similar to what X10 has been doing for a long time. Using a special outlet plug-in, you can control various fixtures (lights, fans, etc) via a remote control, as well as using a timer and motion-detectors. A friend of mine has been using X10 motion sensors in his house for a while now, so that his kitchen light comes on whenever anyone enters, and turns off 2-3 minutes afterward.
I'm not up to par on the technology used in the X10 devices, but it can't be all that dissimilar to sending any kind of digital "internet" signal over the power lines as well. Actually I'm surprised it took this long to surface (granted I haven't been scouring the net looking for this information either.)
And they said zombies weren't real!
Offtopic... Just because the guy thinks quickly it is assumed to be offtopic? I do not agree with the original poster, but his discussion is on topic. Moderators, did you read his post??? Grrr...
I am in the same boat. I only have cable becuase it is basically free. I have the $13 cable along with the internet (10 dollars off). Bringing my total fees for internet (rental modem included) to $45/month.
If power can add it to them for less money, it would mean one less check/billpay and less money. I would do it.
Religion and politics, without the flame. godgab.org
RWE, a very big electricity company in Germany used to sell powerline internet access in towns Essen and Muelheim an der Ruhr in july 2001. It only lasted until september 2002.
According to RWE it was shut down because some frequencies used by powerline were reserved for security services. The real reason was though that almost nobody used it - RWE had only some 200 paying customers - because internet access via ADSL was much cheaper and in both Muelheim (I used to live there back then) and Essen widely availiable.
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
When it comes to underground wires, I can say this much from experience:
1. If they didn't install it underground to start, it's not going to get there any time soon (at least not in the US). I know there are probably exceptions to this rule, but there aren't that many in the vast majority of the country. If lines were put above your head, they're going to stay there.
2. When you have lines that are underground, they get damaged less often, which is a good thing. When they do, though, you can be without Utility['$foo'] for quite some time. I have a friend who lived in a brand new neighborhood with underground cable lines for TV and internet surrounded by people still working with the same old structures. And when something went wrong, it could take up to a month until they could watch TV or check their email in their own home.
So without a fast enough maitenence crew to service them, underground lines can be quite a hazard.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
MONEY. And we are talking BIG MONEY. Most likely, not from Google, and likewise, I doubt the tech ppl, but from the energy ppl. These days, anything goes for the companies that control energy such as Haliburton. Tax breaks out the whazoos, while profits sky rocket.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The fibre-optic network provides the high-bandwidth link to your local electricity distribution point. It is then injected into the power supply lines.
Technical hurdles to be overcome include getting signals around local transformers (which can be achieved by turning off the supply and sending a guy up each and every pole that carries one), and somehow keeping the signals in the wires and not radiating everywhere (which can be achieved by magic).
Doesn't it all go hand in hand, though? If power, water, and phone service are uninterruptible, even if there were a significant disaster, those things would still function as expected. If those things are made impervious, or at the least significantly resistant to damage, won't the internet service riding on top of that also going to reap the benefits of that?
Isn't there something wrong when a tree branch falling down in a rain storm can knock out your power? I think that this type of thing ought to be remedied as much as possible. But I'm not an electrical engineer, nor a civil engineer, so my perspective is only as a concerned user of those services.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
My understanding from the article was the 'the last mile' used fiber and that the long haul was done over power cables.
A better plan would be to get the power companies to install fiber whenever they have to fix the power lines. Or to offer them a tax break if they'd start to install fiber on the overhead lines so that they could rent this dark fiber to the telcos, who could then put ISPs in place.
BPL with actual power lines just isn't going to work - at least not without treading on A LOT of toes.
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
... you have a leg up on the situation.
Personally, I think this is just a pork-barrel project for some congresscritter. You can see it right there in RTFA, sandwiched between the lines about the hams and all the bread the profit-hungry power companies think they'll make once BPL really gets cooking. Not content with my $200/month, they want to hog the ISP market, too.
Really, I don't care beans about it.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
main(O){10<putchar((O--,102-((O&4)*16| (31&60>>5*(O&3)))))&&main(2+ O);}
LN2 is cool!
"Web Access Over Power Lines" ... why, whith an Internet Protocol (IP) packet exchange capability this technology could provide any Internet service, not just HTTP Web access! (Please mod +1 Insightful)
Editorial note: Read with heavy sarcasm
If you don't have power, it's unlikely you'll be able to use your computer. And if you have a laptop, what is powering your wireless router?
Um...a UPS? Or small personal generator? An inverter hooked up through your car (I actually used this once for temporary power when the power was out in my house, in conjunction with a long extension cable, because I couldn't find a wired phone). All you have to do is think outside the box, and you could easily have power to your router/modem during an outage for quite some time.
Besides, if there's a major earthquake or something, I think internet connection should be pretty low on your list of priorities.
True, unless you are using VOIP for your primary phone line and you have the sudden desire/burning need to call 911. Which, of course, is why using VOIP for a primary phone line is not always the best idea. Disaster-proofing in general is just a giant game of whack-a-mole anyway, though...it's pretty difficult to implement truly disaster-proof comms. I can think of a couple ways that would be better than underground cable, but even those have their own weaknesses. Eventually you have to settle for "good enough."
Beware the powerful ham radio lobby! They pwn congress!
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Think of BPL in terms of "universal access". It's not so much for people in cities, who typically already have broadband and DSL to choose from. It's for the rural populous who don't have cable, and who live way too far from their CO to get DSL. (Last time I checked DSL is still limited to about 18,000 feet from the phone company's switch.) DSL in rural areas will require a significant investment in fiber from current network hubs to new remotely located DSLAM boxes mounted less than three miles from their customers. BPL can travel many, many miles further (radiating harmful interference the whole way.) And BPL solves the "last mile" problem -- the wires already exist all the way up to the customer's electrical outlet.
Keeping network service up in case of an emergency is not yet a high priority. The internet is still not the "primary" means of communication for the majority of people. Phones are far more ubiquitous. That the reliability of BPL gets to 'piggyback' on the reliability of electrical power (probably considered the highest priority) is just a happy side effect of BPL. But you can bet the repair crews working to repair storm damage aren't going to have network restoration as their primary goal -- electrical service restoration will always be first.
John
It's because we understand the issues, dumbass.
I didn't read TFA, but what kind of bandwidth can be expected from BPL? Is it worth it to polute our RF spectrum?
the AARL has a collection of video and sound files demonstrating BPL interference.l l #Audio
Vid:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.htm
Sound: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.htm
Is there something wrong when a tree branch can knock out your power? It depends on how you define "wrong".
The local distribution system isn't designed to provide redundant lines to your home; it's not economicallly feasible (meaning you and your neighbors would not be willing to pay what your power would cost). Some occasional small outages at the distribution level when nature strikes are part of the deal.
I first thought that it was either an Onion or
Borowitz report article.
I think I'll wait for my BWL - Broadband over Water Connection Lines?
Wow, technology is really going into weird places. Internet over powerlines. I didn't even know they had radio over pork!
My little corner of the world was just graced with this technology a little over a year ago through a partnership with Cinergy (power company) and Current Braodband (the ISP).
As a long time user of cable broadband, I've listed my top three pics for "best parts of this technology".
1) Most homes have a great deal more power outlets than phone or cable outlets. This greatly increases the chance that you won't have to run cable across your room to your desktop/wireless router.
2) I get to see the people's faces when I tell them that I have broadband coming over my power lines.
3) $30/month. Wait, did I say that right? Yeah, I did...$30/month. Not an introductory rate, not a special "we don't want you to cancel your service" deal. Just straight up $30/month. The cheapest alternative in my ares is $45/month for DSL, followed closely by $50/month for cable.
The editor of that article doesn't know that there's already 3 ways of recieving internet...and that's Cable, Phone, Satellite. He didn't mention Satellite. So BPL would be fourth for consumers.
When I was in the army there were some BPL performed. It was considered a fact that if BPL would be generally implemented the background noise within kilometers or tens of kilometers from powerlines the increase in background noise / interference would considerably reduce the maximum range of man-portable VHF radios.
Electronic warfare would be even more badly hit as the devices used to gather radio intelligence can operate at the level of background interference.
Linz AG, the local electricity provider, sells it, but it's really slow and expensive compared to other ISPs.
The fastest thing you get is 768/375 kbps up/down, costing you EUR 69,- per month. Compared to that, Liwest, a local cable TV/internet provider, gives you 6/1.5 mbps up/down for the same money.
Another negative side effect is that certain radio frequency are being disturbed by it, and Linz AG tried suing people that put measurement results of these disturbances online.
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
As for underground cables..
1. Most cables aren't underground. I live in an area (that's not too old) where the cables are above ground.
1a. It's a damned costly exercise to put cables underground. They ain't going to get there any time soon.
2. Amateur radio gear (particularly expensive HF stuff) is particularly sensitive. It's quite easy to wipe out the front end of it if a strong local source is broadcasting at a frequency that's even close to the one you're listening on.
3. Amateur radio signals (particularly from far away in HF bands) arrive at very low power. Sometimes the signals are barely above the noise floor (some of the HF-Digital and even CW modes) by the time they get to the recipient.
3a. The whole point of HAM radio is to receive signals that are barely audible from far far away. BPL raises the noise floor and causes a lot of signals to become lost!
4. HAM operators typically build enormous, high gain antenna arrays. These serve to "amplify" the signal. It's difficult to build a HF antenna that is really directional (it is just too large), so it's hard to direct it away from a noise source. High gain on an already high power noise source just helps to wipe out the front end of your receiver.
4a. BPL wouldn't be adirectional noise source. It would occur as a blanket of noise on every cable in the area. This is bad because even if you wanted to you couldn't direct your antenna away from it.
5. Underground cables radiate still. The earth blocks out a good amount of the signal, but the cables are usually not buried far enough beneath the ground to stop it all. See point 2 for reasons why this a real bloody problem.
6. Even DSL is causing problems for me on some bands... The signal coming out of the phone cable in my house is enough to wipe out the receiver some times... It really depends on a lot of things though.
There's just too many things to list. Don't forget that one underground cable carrying one minute RF signal is nothing, but if you add up the number of cables running in a particular city you get a significant amount of noise being radiated.
I drink to make other people interesting!
So are brown outs a DDOS attack?
Ever heard of WIMAX? BPL is an not needed, not cost effective, and a poorly engineered solution to the problem. And the hams are right...
Sadly, back in 1999 I sat next to a guy on a flight who was telling me "I have a new technology that will allow you to send high-speed Internet over power lines. I just got the patent, now I'm looking for investors."
I thought to myself "Wow...he might actually sucker someone into investing in this wild idea" and laughted it off. I certainly had an attack of the dumb-shits that day.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
This has been offered in Spain for over a year now, and we'd been hearing about it for years before that. Not everywhere...I guess it's still semi-beta. You can just look up if your area is ready for it and sign up. They call it PLC.
Am I missing something? Is there something different with this BPL thing? Maybe just that this HAM radio is not an issue in Europe?
IT is really good that latest technology gets updated daily !
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
Internet over sewer lines. There might be interference but who cares, most of the stuff on the internet is sh*t anyways
"Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios"
Five guys in their basement constitutes "major opposition" these days.
I tried setting up a network connection with my neighbour by plugin my nick into the wall outlet.
I think there was too much bandwith cause my PC couldn't handle it and It went up in smoke. So, I bought a new system with a 1Gb network card and that blew up too!
Do you think it will work with a 10Gb ethernet card?
The technical side of the article is too simple. It almost appear like you can just connect the power cable to the internet, and then you have everyone online. This is defiantly not the case.
When two computers connect to each other they attach themselves to a complex network of routers. It's not "One-big-line" out there. There needs to be fitted routers into the power cables in order to manage handshaking etc. by the devices connecting to the cable. If this is not done, the cable will only have a certain maximum of connections before it drowns in the noise of computers trying to call each other.
But the basic technology is not new. It has been possible for some years by now to build your own tiny network through power cables within you house. But of cause they have not been connected outside, and the signal wasn't strong enough to get far outside and into the street.
But to use power cables as backbones and "the last mile" is still very interesting for two reasons. Backbone cables are typically defined by having a good "line" from A to B. Power cables support this. The "last mile issue" might also be addressed, as the cables are there inside our houses. All you need is to add the routers, switches etc...
In regard to the backbones railways have also been mentioned. They are also (straight) lines from A to B, and often have cable wells where a high band light cable may easily be fitted.
-:) Oh no - not again.
www.rednebula.com
BTW, what is the protection of the data signal transmitted over an electric wire? Clearly the signal is emitted far and wide and can be easily intercepted and decoded. This is very much unlike any other wired transmission medium where signals are well contained. Even satellite connection is somewhat narrowly directed and pointed upwards. Here your web browsing session will be available for 100s of miles along the path of those power lines, in places with easy access. Just set up a tent, open a laptop with proper antenna and enjoy.
The power companies that implement this would have to provide significant signal encryption well beyond anything that is currently done by other carriers.
Good-bye world-wide emergency communications network... HELLO RFI!!
It's just me.
Bring on the bandwidth.
Wonder how they're going to route any downed power lines.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
I have an amateur radio license and I also like to listen to shortwave broadcast and utility stations. I already have plenty of electrical noise from my neighbors. Adding BPL would make things much worse. Even if they could successfully notch out the amateur bands, it would still ruin the rest of the shortwave spectrum.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Good or bad, the hams are making the noise because really they're the only seriously represented group that uses the HF spectrum (well, the best-represented, anyway). The noise, however, affects a lot of other frequency users.
On the brighter side, Motorola and others are working on variants that don't use the medium-level transmission lines to cover most of the last mile, but only use the power lines at the very last stage (after the transformer) to carry the signal in to the house itself. Looks like it may work without screwing up the airwaves. Here's hoping.
Since many of you will say the same damned things over and over... might as well just look at our past discussions. Honestly, everything so far has just been rehashes of prior conversations/arguments. What a fluff piece.
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
Six
I'm too lazy to find any more... still... everyone should just go and read some past comments and repost them.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
But the question is, will your ISP's equipment still have power during this time? Having your modem power doesn't do any good if there isn't a signal coming through the line, or if the routers on the other end aren't sending your packets onward.
I have a DC-AC inverter myself, and a portable power pack, and have put my home network hardware on them during times of power failure, and it seems that during any significant power outage, my cable ISP is typically offline as well. Thinking outside the box isn't terribly useful if the other end of your connection goes dead due to the same event that necessitated the need for an external power system in the first place.
Yaz.
I think you have missed the point. It is not just a "ham thing" - they are simply the first ones to notice and bitch. This is an inherently flawed technology - there is no way to send data over power lines without creating broadband spectrum polution. Would you sit up and take notice if they were interfering with NASA ground communications?
Yes, underground power distribution greatly alleviates the problem. Unfortunately, urban areas with underground distribution are not the target market of the power companies. They want to break into a market that is largely SOL (i.e., boondock dwellers), without spending a lot of $$ on infrastructure.
"Um...a UPS? Or small personal generator? An inverter hooked up through your car (I actually used this once for temporary power when the power was out in my house, in conjunction with a long extension cable, because I couldn't find a wired phone). All you have to do is think outside the box, and you could easily have power to your router/modem during an outage for quite some time."
I didn't imply that it was impossible to get power. More that it's impractical. UPS's only last so long, a generator would be ideal, but they're not as common in your average house. Even with a generator, I would be focusing my energy on lighting and food storage as opposed to checking weather.com or cnn.com. I know the news I need to hear... I'm in the middle of it. Preserving food and providing light are more important.
You could use a car, but not everybody has a power inverter or a car for that matter (think New York City). And either way you'll then need to be running some wires, which may or may not be feasible in the situation.
Sidenote: the expression "thinking outside the box" has lost all implications of creativity. All it means now is that you subscribe to the corporate mindset.
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
they could just to Fiber To The Premisis for rural - current FTTP prices in test markets are $40/month for phone, cable and data on one FTTP line
If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html
Video and audio recordings of BPL interference in the Americas, Europe, Asia, etc.
It's not just the HAMs fighting this...many emergency response teams still rely on older, lower-frequency, long-range communication networks (instead of the relatively short-range digital networks of municipal locales), and the interference to those services is as disruptive to their systems as this "noise" is to Amateur Radio.
"Amateur Radio serves a critical role during emergencies to provide communication when other means are not available. "
If there is an emergency of the scale that you propose, isn't it likely that power will be out (non-functioning) and BPL along with it getting rid of any interference when shortwave is needed?
*Gosh* Next thing you know they will have generic internet access over powerlines...!!!
Interference works both ways, but the BPL operators will have _NO_ legal recourse for my interference.
completely off topic:
its Utility['foo'].
although you may have meant Utility["$foo"] if you were talking about the element of the Utility array with a name the same as the value of $foo
presuming your talking php of course.
although i may be wrong - you may be allowed to use $ in array element names.
BPL is a great idea if you have the technological sophistication of a politician, lawyer or businessman. In other words, you are a classic PHB.
On the other hand, if you have the technological sophistication of an EE or even a junior level physics major, you understand that the basic concept of BPL comes with a serious technical problem of interference to users of the radio spectrum. That's ALL users, not just hams.
Broadbanded signals on an unshielded, unbalenced wire will radiate. That's basic physics. Powerlines are long pieces of wire that make fair transmitting antennas. The wiring in your house makes a fair transmitting antenna. This is what the PHBs appear to not understand.
Hams are typically early adopters of new technology and do not oppose BPL per say. Hams oppose sources of interference. BPL in it's trial systems has typically destroyed all communications in the low VHF and down frequency range. That includes direct broadcast TV channels 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 (in the US), CB radio, shortwave broadcast, standard AM broadcast and (oh yeah) ham radio.
Why don't other users of radio spectrum oppose BPL? Hams tend to be technicaly savvy and vocal about their concerns. The folks with the authority to speak for other radio services are mostly politicians, lawyers and businessmen. In other words PHBs who understand politics, law and economics but are often technologicaly illiterate.
They can not put a patent on it, as there already exists previous art RFC 3251
What? The other way around? Sorry.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
For someone who is supposedly advocating "egalitarianism-oriented" free speech, you seem awfully quick to hand a PUBLIC RESOURCE called the RF spectrum over to a tiny group of PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.
In case you haven't thought about it yet, there is nothing "free" or "egalitarian" about BPL. It will be under corporate control, accessible only to those who can/will pay for it. Contrast this with amateur radio, which is more or less the last vestige of non-corporate, decentralized, communications technology left in existence. Anyone who can pass a simple test can get on the air and communicate worldwide without any dependence on power companies, telecom giants, or huge media conglomerates.
Destroying public access to the radio spectrum via BPL is just one more move that will keep people dependent on corporations for EVERYTHING. Don't you think that individuals should have SOMEway to communicate and disseminate information that doesn't depend on big business?
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What no one talks about and most people don't realize is that this is going to raise the number of KW's (Kilowatt Hours) you are using/getting charged for in your home. It might be a small difference, but spread over the large number of customers and time, it will be huge. The only way to stop the problem is for the power companies to invest in filters for each and every customer to chop the carrier frequency off the top of the power being delivered. That's simply not going to happen. The companies have purposefully kept this issue out of the public eye so that they do not have to make that investment.
What am I talking about? It's related to what is called 'power factor'. When your devices that you use in your home consume power in a way that causes the phase of the sine wave to shift (lag), even slightly, your 'in-home' power becomes slightly out of phase with the power being delivered. This in turn causes you to consume more power as the current rises to bring the out of phase voltage in line with the delivered voltage. The issue is most generally caused by induction devices, such as motors. Factories and such will most always install capacitor banks to offset the induction induced phase shift and therefore keep their power consumption in check.
How does broadband over power lines effect your total consumption? Well, unlike a simple induction compensation issue, you cannot simply add capacitance to overcome the problem. The 'dirty' power being delivery will cause many of your devices in your home to run slightly more inefficiently, causing them to lag slightly farther behind the delivered phase of the power coming into your home. On an individual appliance basis, perhaps hardly noticable, on a total home basis, noticable at the least. Power supplies will have to work a bit harder to 'clean' the incoming power. Blenders (higher speed motors) will have a slighly harder time keeping their rotors in sync with their induction fields. Slight as it may be, over time you will pay more, unless you can get them to clean up that power before it hits you meter.
In short, if they are allowed to proceed, it's another win win for the power companies. They sell more power, reagrdless of whether you purchase or use the broadband and if you do purchase the broadband, more revenue coming into their pockets. Most people won't even realize they have been hoodwinked.
Why can't the power companies just be part of the large backbone?
They already run high voltage cables everywhere you want to be.
Just put a fiber cable inside the top ground cable or along the high voltage cable, it's plastic so it's non conductive and lightweight.
Then they can bill the cable companies for providing bandwidth, not have to deal with all the IT problems of retail customers and save the frequencies that shortwave listeners love.
when it's such an old story, well -- it makes me as nervous as a Christian Scientist with appendicitis!
You guys should really listen to NPR instead of that morning idiot on dc101.
It is my understanding that the Part 15 rules are being MODIFIED with regards to interference to/from BPL systems.
The BPL system operator is only going to be required to make a "good faith effort" to resolve interference to other services, and licensed services that wipe out the BPL system could be required to modify/restrict THEIR operations to reduce the interference.
This is essentially a reversal of the long-time interpretation of Part 15, where operators of unlicensed radiators were required to shut down if interfering with a licensed service, and to accept any interference they RECIEVE from such a service.
Do you REALLY think that our corporate-friendly FCC is going to allow your DX-chasing to cut into the profits of a billion-dollar utility company?
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Moving the cables underground simply brings them closer. A couple feet of dirt does not block electro-magnetic radiation.
The other white meat. Gonna have pork for lunch now....
I can't imagine where you got that silly idea...
The fundamental technology is still distance limited. In fact, given natural and artificial interference factors from pre-existing spectrum users (not just ham radio operators, but everything on Shortwave) the distance limitations may be even more severe than those imposed by the telcos.
Hams aren't the only objecting group. They're merely the loudest. Most of the others, such as short wave broadcasters and trans-oceanic air traffic, Ship to shore Marine communications and the like don't have a constituency that the FCC will give much credence to.
Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
Novell had SNAP, which is the same thing as this, and failed. There have been others try as well.
If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.
Instead of ranting about the issues you should try to work on them to improve the technology...
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
As mentioned before, this would be a way for electricity companies to monitor your meter remotley. I wonder if in the future, your whole home would be talking to the internet just by plugging it into the wall, seems a little scary.
The problem with apparently all BPL implementations (other than one Motorola designed system) is that they are inherently RF polluters.
Under U.S. law, BPL is a non-licensed user of the RF spectrum. Licenseholders in the Amateur Radio Service (ie hams) are licensed users of the spectrum. Licensed users are protected by law, from harmful interference from non-licensed users. Under longstanding law, a non-licensed user is required to eliminate intereferrence to licensed users, and must tolerate all intereference from licensed users.
BPL attempts to run RF energy through the (generally) overhead power lines. Despite all the armwaving and mumbling by BPL promoters, overhead powerlines look to RF exactly like antennas. The BPL signal is radiated everywhere the power lines run. That is just the plain physics of the situtation.
All of the BPL trials that I have read about have resulted in significant harmful interferrence to licensed users of the RF spectrum. Also, there are fairly consistent reports that BPL is disrupted by RF transmissions at even relatively low power levels.
To actually comply with the law and avoid intereference, BPL operators would have to notch out all licensed frequencies. Since the entire RF spectrum is licensed, except for a few narrow chunks reserved for unlicensed use, this would pretty much kill the whole scheme.
West Texas is an ideal place for 802.11 wireless broadband internet providers. It's rather flat, so line-of-site is usually not an insurmountable problem. The biggest problem is where there are local city ordinances and property deed covenants that restrict homeowners from putting up outdoor antennas since you may need a 40 to 50 foot, or higher antenna tower to get above the trees (and yes, contrary to popular misconception, there are indeed trees in west Texas). I live in a city in western north Texas, and get my broadband internet feed from a wireless ISP whose tower is about 6 miles from my house. I have a 24dBi parabolic grid antenna on a 40' tower next to my house. I could get the full 11 Mbps 802.11b signal to the main tower's access point with about 75% "signal quality", but the ISP has it throttled back to 2 Mbps. During heavy rains, the signal gets crappy and I experience a lot of packet loss, but I can still surf... just can't play UT2004 very well, but other than that it works pretty well. Also during periods of heavy sunspot activity / solar flares, the signal gets very poor and erratic too, but that also affects long distance wired links too.
:-)
I would post the name and URL of my wireless ISP but slashdotting the hell out of them will hurt *my* ability to surf today, so I ain't gonna do that
The public park analogy is close but the electromagnetic spectrum was originally considered public domain. The government started to regulate it it keep the peace and then it progressed to leasing certain spectra to common carriers, then passing laws to make it illegal to listen in on those frequencies (which before were public domain). Then they passed laws to restrict any short wave radio to not be able to tune any band not explicitly Ham or commercial short wave.
Now it appears as though the corporate interests are being given more of the pie. The U.S. governement does not own the electromagnetic spectrum as it is really a world or universe resource. I don't see any mention of what effect it the interference will have on other countries or ongoing research in say tagged animal studies.
I don't imagine that the entire phone wire network will be without problems or leakage. It will come into your PC's your radios, your TV's and cause new and intermittent problems. Not me mention pace makers and medical equipment. Remember you only have to have a piece of wire or a board trace the lentgth of a harmonic of the frequency to build up a galloping gurtey effect in any circuit.
I don't think this has been well thought out.
It will be so much easier to eaves drop on others as well.
QUOTE:
For someone who is supposedly advocating "egalitarianism-oriented" free speech, you seem awfully quick to hand a PUBLIC RESOURCE called the RF spectrum over to a tiny group of PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.
UNQUOTE
And there we have it. God I love it when the normal folks get it. Corporations ARE in direct oposition to our democracy (constitutional republic.) It's time to throw all these fsckers that are doing these fscked up shite out of office and into jail cells.
Not only that. But our own DHS (dept. of homeland security) has currently out a series of PSA (public service announcements) that say, prepare for a disaster, setup an emergency communications system.
CB'ers can kiss it goodbye too.
And if it's RF (radio Frequency) and going through your unshielded romex or in some cases crappy disentigrating wires in your home, at about a foot and a half to a foot or so off the ground, near your bed, etc. How's all that RF going to be good for your health?
(To the tune of The Beatles - Yellow Submarine)
(chorus)
"We all live in an electronic sea of death."
The FCC, is crap, they mismanage poweer and frequency...
* ORIGIN Not the Bush Crime Family.
My web domain.
Yeah the article suggests it would be BPL over long distances, and then Fiber or (what are they smoking?) WiMax.
That struck me as strange at first because the 'last mile' is all ways the biggest problem with Cable & DSL (you are too far / not enough relay stations).
I guess the real goal here is Hitting the pockets. The small underserved areas. Which I guess if this eventually happens with WiMax, it might be conceptual to have a nationwide wireless network, or atleast one that looks like the current cell phone coverage networks...
DJMD - The fourth man - Planetary
Instead of ranting about the issues you should try to work on them to improve the technology...
I personally am trying to get the laws of physics that govern that fact that a long, unshielded conductor carrying high voltage electricity modulating at high frequency will radiate RF interference all over the spectrum. Unfortunately Senator Barak Obama absolutely refuses to meet with Mother Nature to broker a deal, even going so far as to imply that she doesn't even exist!
Personally I just think that this is an indicator that he's in the pockets of the big power companies.
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I grew up in a very rural area and as far as I know, there's still no broadband available except for the satellite dishes. Now, I understand that the satellite has latency issues that make it unsuitable for games, but why is this not a more talked about option? I've heard people mention the cost of the equipment but when I checked it was around $500 or so. If you live in an area, such as the one where I lived in Maryland, broadband isn't even a distant thought. It is so far away from that town that waiting for it is pointless. When you think about it in those terms, the up front cost of the equipment isn't too bad since it would likely be used for years to come.
If anybody has a reason why satellite isn't a more prevalent option, I'd love to know.
Finance tutorials and more! Understandfinance
My water meter already has a device to transmit readings to the truck is it travels the street.
I think both the power company and the public could benefit greatly by having power monitors at all houses,and if the some appliances like water heaters can be controlled to avoid overloads in local areas. There is always the possibility that abuse or inconvenience could happen, but loss of power due to overload is also inconvenient. (No, I don't work for the power co.)
Probably in a real emergency - the powerlines will be down so there will be no interference. Also durring emergencies spelling will be improved due to googles toolbar working in Firefox.
With all the different sorts of plug types found worldwide and varying voltages etc. instead of web over powerline we should start looking into power over ethernet. That way i can power my lava lamp and still give it an IPv6 address. Take it to another country and it will work the same
I think it would be nice if the powerco's just installed fibre when they were installing powerlines. No interference, nice and simple.
Ofcom in the UK have measured the emissions from the PLT (as it is called here) system trials being held here. The results are here on the Ofcom website.
Basically they show just how noisy these signals are as well as spectrum trashing ability they have. It appears that, even at 100m from the powerline the systems exceed the German emission standards (the only applicable ones that the EU has currently) by a wide margin.
It is unlikely that PLT will be licenced in the UK with these characteristics.
Did I wake up in 2005? I swear I've seen all four previous stories years ago. There have been dozens of BPL stories on slashdot already, so why is there one that's talking like it's a brand new thing that nobody has ever seen before?
Hams are against Frequancy Pollution, not BPL.
Think of this as an UL stamp of approval for an appliance.
Putting out an inefficient, crappy solution now, just means it will have to be un-screwed up later. Better to do it righ the 1st time, eh?
I live in the Cincinnati area and have been patiently waiting for the Cinergy (our local power company) BPL service to be deployed to my area. My message to anyone waiting for BPL to come to their area: DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH!!
i al/PricingAndBenefits/
s .asp?news_id=420
b roadband/2100-1036_3-5777917.html
Cinergy had a huge multi-year beta test, followed by a production rollout.... that ONLY covered the area that the beta test did. That was over a year ago, since then, they've yet to expand their coverage area AT ALL.
It sounds too good to be true at $35 for 3mbit SYMETRICAL (no more DSL/Cable 20x download that you have for upload BS)
Current (The ISP that cinergy partnered with):
http://www.current.net/ServiceAndPricing/Resident
Press release from Cinergy:
http://www.cinergy.com/News/default_corporate_new
Recent investment in Cinergy BPL by Google:
http://news.com.com/Google+invests+in+power-line+
Prevent linux based DDOS's!
http://linux.denialofservice.org/
Now consider a portion of the BPL power line. If it is long enough between certain poles in your neighborhood, and there is a ham radio or other source near the BPL frequency,the power line will receive signals from the ham radio transmitter or local source and add them on top of your BPL signal. This could (and will) block the BPL signal and you will get garbage or very slow internet for a time.
Don't expect the proposed high speed to be available everywhere. Think of it as being like the inkjet printers that advertise "4x6 pictures as fast as 25 seconds" when the actual speed of a photo-quality print is nearly 2 minutes.
On the other hand, having BPL available might add competition tothe cable so that internet and cable-TV will become lower cost. I only expect the cost to be the same or increase, but I can hope.
Finally, when I worked for a cable company a few years ago, I heard that the power companies were already running fiber on the longer transmission spans along with the high voltage. Perhaps some transmissions will be non-interfering if they can be run on existing fiber.
So moderators:
How is commenting on the topic Offtopic. How about redundant or overrated?
This would be a non-issue if the Power companies ran lines naturally grounded, in the earth.
As a licensed amateur radio operator I was beside myself when the FCC gave BPL deployment the green light. It proved to me that none of the commissioners have ANY technical competence at all, and that any decision right or wrong is made entirely for political reasons.
Current BPL technology is a kludge at best, it is the equivalent of duct tape and bailing wire. The interference that is created doesn't just effect the ham bands, it effects every service that is found between 1.8-80 MHz. The "interference mitigation" card is pure bull shit. For non hams how would you feel if I developed a Internet delivery method that disrupted your cell phone service? And every time you attempted to use your cell phone you disrupted your neighbors Internet access.
BPL is a bad idea, the laws of physics will never make it viable or economical, how many of you would get pissed off if I was constantly disrupting your Internet service for minutes or hours with my HF transceiver when I drive through town, I know I would.
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
The real concern of much of local LE and other public safety was the loss of ham radio and other shortwave regional backup systems should their microwave links fail in a disaster.
During a disaster the power lines would likely be down, so this really isn't an issue. If the lines are not down, and interference is an issue, then the emergency management agencies could ask (or order) the utilities to turn off BPL for the duration of the emergency.
Here's a link that MAY enlighten those who wish to learn rather than just rant against the HAM radio operator. The ranks of HAM radio still provides one of the largest pools of technical savvy and engineering skills yet. Enjoy your electronic toys? The entire beginning (and continuation) of electronic investigation began with many HAMS.
http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/08/01/1/
In this story the author explains the technical issues and how they are being addressed to prevent the noise pollution from the Cheap And Dirty(tm) BPL service and using better technology to let everyone get what they want.
Too lazy to create a sig...
Since BPL is, to put it mildly, not a good idea, how about encouraging the power companies to use their power-line rights-of-way to string coax or fiber for their long-haul datacom, and use either wired tie-ins or newer-generation WiFi (e.g., WiMAX) for end-user connections? The power companies get reliable comms (better than BPL, without the interference!) for their grid management systems, the ability to remotely read meters, and broadband capacity to sell to end users. Sure, it costs money to string wire, but the power companies are in the best position of anyone to do THAT...
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
Sorry, I don't wanna entrust my access to those who already overcharge me per kilowatt hour. Nor do I think BPL is a good idea. Bleh.
Blacker than my baby girl's stare. Black like the veil that the muslimina wear. Black like the planet that they fear...
It's a an analog technology over a medium that was not designed for it. As such, it's a compromise. And it radiates. Worse, it's susceptible to interference from other emitters, like HF and broadcast radio. Not to mention lightning outages.
Long term, it's not viable. BPL has been trialled in the UK and Canada, as well as the US. The results of these trials have been less than satisfactory, and in some cases, have resulted in decisions not to go forward. I have heard of happy users, but long term, this technology is full of problems and probably won't survive. It's mainly an attempt by power companies to "maximize shareholder revenue".
And yes, I am a ham radio operator, and no, I wouldn't want to see it in my neighborhood.
Long coaxial lines would have too much loss at higher frequencies. What the utilities should do is just string fiber alongside their existing powerlines. This would allow for not only BPL service to consumers, but diagnostic/control signals (SCADA) between substations, load dispatching centers, powerplants, etc.
Of course, such an infrastructure improvement would cost MONEY, and the whole idea of BPL seems to be allowing the power companies into the broadband market without forcing them to make the same types of infrastructure investment that the Telcos and CATV providers had to. In other words, a giveaway to the energy industry from their friends in Washington....
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Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.
There are full-scale commercial roll-outs of BPL in Europe and South America. Not trials--full commercial roll-outs. And they began literally years ago.
I interviewed the Chairman of Chilectra (subsidiary of power company Endesa) in 2002, when they were beginning their commercial roll-out in Santiago, Chile.
Main.net technology is already being deployed commercially in several countries in Europe.
Nay-sayers like the parent (an AC, what a surprise) base their opinions on ancient information like the failed Norweb trial in England in 1997. Well cable modems and DSL didn't work very well either in 1997. Literally hundreds of BPL trials have been conducted successfully since then, with many companies world-wide now involved in commercial roll-out.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
My power company, Niagara Mohawk, swapped out my electric meter a while back so that they could read it as the truck travels down the street as well.
I used to have a guy that lived in my neighborhood that broadcast his HAM with enough power that I heard him over my old fashioned wired telephone. If he broadcast while I was dialing, it screwed up my call completely. If he was busy with a monologue, I even had trouble getting a dial tone.
If this were the only HAM operator with such an attitude, I'd probably have a lot more sympathy for their plight. But I grew up in the city with an annual HAMfest. My overzealous neighbor was certainly not the only HAM operator that tended to interfere with me and my neighbors.
I always though "broadband over power lines" was just a convenient way to say that the power company is providing internet service. But why does it have to mean actually through the power lines? Why doesn't the power company just put some wireless repeaters on the poles? Seems like they could have a focused beam to the next pole pretty easy so it would have essentially zero noise. They could probably even use induction from high-voltage lines to power it. It seems like that would have far more potential for keeping up with the competition, long-term.
When deciding between DSL and cable broadband, I asked myself whether the cable or the phone went out with greater frequency. Given that I grew up with one of the most notoriously unreliable cable providers and presently live in a city with one of the best telco providers in the US, I went with DSL.
Now, in my current area, I would never go with BPL because the power is highly unreliable. I can imagine that in some places, it might be a good deal better. I can also imagine that in places with no broadband alternatives, that a bad choice is better than no choice at all. I just don't see it as presently being highly competitive.
On the other hand, maybe it will finally give the local power company a reason to upgrade its lines.
STOP BPL NOW!
First of all, it makes no difference whether it's an ass-load or a shit-load of money, all that matters is whether a company can make more money that it spends. DSLAMs cost a lot of money too.
Second, the basis of the entire BPL industry is the means of passing the signal through or around the MV/LV transformer. That is the core competency of the companies--their core innovations and IP. A number of companies have been around for near a decade, doing trials and commercial deployments based on their technology.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Because the lines are leaking RF radiation (and acting as (good?) antennas), what is stopping the equivallent of wardriving for BPL? In theory, couldn't you just set up a van under a powerline somewhere? If both of the above are true and knowing the current state of wireless security (AES, etc.), what will be done to protect content and access?
Corridor Systems works pretty much better than all the other BPL offerings and brings higher overall bandwidths (as in 10Mbit per line used and they can use all three lines of a three-phase system...) and it only might interfere with 802.11 systems.
How do they accomplish this? Something called a G-line (Look for it in the link...), which is a waveguide turned inside-out.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Sorry to respond to my own reply, but I forgot to add that the FCC exists to manage this sort of risk. If left to their own devices and no regulation, the person with the largest, most powerful radio would dominate the airwaves and we'd all be slowly cooking away.
Isn't it amazing that the plucky ham operators understand RF that much better than the career, expert electrical engineers and physicists at the FCC, broadcast TV equipment vendors, emergency radio system vendors, consultancies, and city planning organizations, not to mention the various regulatory agencies and stakeholders in the European and South American countries where BPL is currently commercially deployed?
Thank god for these giants of theoretical and practical RF experience, who literally tower over the rest of the known world in the heights of their superior understanding of RF. Surely they will save us all from ourselves.
The arrogance of the ham lobby is breathtaking.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
A weak signal right on top of an antenna will swamp a powerful one at a distance if the power levels are equal at the reciever. I can cripple a Ham or CB setup by simply leaving a little 9v powered transmitter (in the case of CB, a walkie-talkie dead-keyed on the channel of most offense...) nearby. You won't be able to hear ANYTHING on the reciever wherever you do this to- it was a common fix for some idiot running a Linear being a problem on the CB band- they could get out, but they couldn't recieve over the little walkie-talkie on their fav channel. They'd think there was something wrong with their rig and quit doing it typically.
What the real big problem is that the BPL systems are largely interfering with a piece of spectrum that has really good propagation characteristics. It's used by everyone for emergency communications worldwide in the case of a disaster; not just Hams have a problem with this- FEMA and other orgs like them does too.
What pisses me off about all of this is that there's no real need for this BS- BPL can be done, done well, and it won't interfere with any critical services when it's done.
Corridor Systems has developed signal launchers and repeater systems to allow them to transform each line on a pole into a 10+ Mbit segment using 802.11 technology. This is accomplished by turning each of the lines on a power pole into a G-line waveguide (yes, you CAN do that sort of thing) that propagates the microwaves from an 802.11 system along the surface of the wires...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
BPL faces the same type of distance limits that DSL does, making it just as poorly suited for long-distance rural deployments. In addition, it is most profitable where the number of customers per LV transformer is the highest--urban or dense suburban environments. BPL is a competitor to DSL and cable in almost every way, and will deployed as such.
Long-range wireless is still the best solution for rural broadband, particularly in wide-open, poorly vegetated regions like the southwest.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
My understanding is that the big expense of laying cable is not the cost of the physical cable, but the acquiring the right of way for the cable.
Couldn't the power companies avoid all of the RF Interference issues just be draping some fiber optic cable along their existing towers?
Where is the FCC? Maybe its time for the FCC to stop fucking around with morality and politics and spend some time actually doing their job.
That's a HUGE swath of the HF bands. That stuff's used for emergency services in a disaster (Think FEMA and their ilk...), HAM, and Military commo- it has global propagation characteristics. That's FLATLY not acceptable- nobody's business models or broadband access is worth that one right now because there's really no comparable block on the bands for this sort of thing.
Which is sad, really. It doesn't HAVE to be this way...
Corridor Systems has an answer that is very workable and doesn't trash any service that's critical (2.4 GHz or 5GHz...), works over power lines (yes, you read that right...), and is comparable in cost to the crap they are fielding- and handles much, much more bandwidth than the other BPL offerings.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Try this link...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Aircraft radios work well now because the aircraft bands have been rigorously protected from interference: if you file an application for a broadcast license, the FCC requires you to supply copies of the same instrument approach plates that pilot's use during stormy weather, so that they can judge if there's even a chance the broadcast signal might interfere with aircraft. Expecting BPL to coexist with AM radios in a life-or-death situation is like trying to run a VW Bug in the Indianapolis 500: it would only work if only VW Bugs were allowed to enter.
This has little to do with meter reading Even though the electric company's PR flacks like to trot out the "remote meter reading" argument, it doesn't stand close examination. Power companies have been using drive-by readers and WiFi technology for a while now, and BPL costs way too much for it to be cost-effective just to replace a few drivers. They don't need instant power usage data anyway: that's already available from pole-top transmitters and power distribution is controlled by area, not house. Direct reporting from meter to control-center is much too fine-grained a usage for what is, after all, a pretty low-tech service, and it would require either new meters (right after they're paid for the WiFi-capable ones), or a WiFI-equiped BPL modem that would cost more than keeping the drivers. Meter reading is a red herring, used as a word game to make BPL sound like it has something to do with power delivery. The electric companies get to externalize all the secondary costs.Try this one on for size...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I live in southern california and I am offended
As a ham, I can tell you that where BPL is in use, like Briarcliff Manor, NY ( Route 9 A), almost all ham and shortwave frequencies are hit with a 20-+9 digital noise carrier. This is not an inconvenience, or a work around. It is finding your local swimming pool no longer clear, but full of someone else's waste products. Since you didn't *need* to swim, it's OK. CB users also comment on the interference. While "not cool", CB is still probably the most heavily used public radio system, and despite the 1930 AM technology, still important to our commercial drivers. The FCC should move it to VHF, but that's for another time and topic. I live about 5 miles away from Briarcliff, and fortunatley cannot hear it. If this came up my block, though, I'd have to sell all my HF ham equipment. Multiply this by thousands, and the safety net that is ham radio would be gone. The internet's nice, but in an emergency we are all just writing on tissue paper. Note also that in many areas, like mine, we have Cable and DSL, so the chances of any BPL takers, unless it was free (snort) is small. Having worked a few ham radio emergency events, often a few volunteer hams are the stitching between dissimilar professional radio systems. You'd be amazed how often agency one can't talk to agency two. It's a trivial thing to use one channel, but governments don't think that way. I agree that the concept of transparent broadband is a great idea...even if it will be used to verify if your HD-DVD player is "legal" and whether the DRM chip in your Vista OS will be allowed to let you copy that CD. BPL will eventually fail due to the business model. The point will be to keep it from destroying the natural resource that is the HF spectrum. Of course, our current administration never met a natural resource they didn't like !
Hey, In my previous work in ISP company in Warsaw, we tested BPL technology. Its terible latency - ping to local gateway from user trminal unit is about 150 to 900 ms sic! Bandwitch is - 3 carierrs 2 Mbit/s each. And thats all - all band form 2 do 30 MHz full in garbage, we listen with AOR AR5000 rx and some serios ham TRX ( IC-737 ). Our antena is CB Band mounted on Van we are able to detect BPL nois from about 5 - 6 Km. It's funny, but in this location, people are requested to swith technology from BPL to LRE - about 15 Mbit/s speed, with sub 10ms ping latency to local gateway. Best Regards, Artur SP5QA
You still have to invest into expensive infrastructure to get the bandwidth out to the segmented BPL deployments, much the same way (traditionally) you would use an ethernet line to supply a WiFi access point with backbone access.
I think the big misconception about this technology is that it (access) would simply 'flow' all over the place no matter where a 120v outlet is. This is not the case. Much of the BPL signal is lost completely once it passes thru a transformer. Special provisioning needs to take place for this to happen.
I think wireless is probably the better way to supply access to rural america.
I think a lot more time and money has to be put into force to deliver access via powerlines for a limited number of subscribers.
BPL also interfers with radio services, yes, including the hams. The only reason you hear that the 'hams are bitching' all of the time, is because (for the most part) they are an aware and smart bunch, where commerical interest may have an alternative means of communicating.
Radio is amazing, especially below 50Mhz. That band is non-line of sight, an exceptionally low power signal (.1 to 10 watts) can travel the whole planet! Think about that! A commerical FM radio station transmits in the tens of thousands of watts, and can only get a few hundred kilometers at it's very best. But with a measily 2 Watts, you can communicate around the world.
I think BPL will destroy a lot of radio services that are damn valuable. It's not just putting a bunch of HAM/amateur radio operators out of a hobby.
The gov should do more to get broadband where it is presently unavailable. BPL is not the solution, it's a pretty bad one, and I don't think (in the long-term) it's going to have the bandwidth to be a TRUE broadband access method.
Well, get used to it, because that BPL nonsense is the future.
It's inevitable that communications, which need electricity anyway, will one day travel over the same lines that provide power. For congested cities, it prevents the need to build ever more infrastructure. In growing areas, it saves money and time establishing infrastructure. I'm surprised we haven't done it already. They're already doing it in Asia. It's coming, like it or not. I was thinking last night...it'll probably be a fact of life for households to have some kind of firewall on the outside of the house, where power comes in, as one day a lot of appliances will be network enabled, and BPL will be the most logical way to do it.
We'll just have to find a technical solution to the radio problem. It can be done.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
when the power goes out, I won't be able to get on the Internet...
Sounds great. I'd rather have them read my meter over the internet than have them snooping around in my yard. That's better privacy. Also, while meter readers will be out of a job, it will create IT jobs -- and IT labor demand benefits me, as well as many other slashdotters.
You're a Republican right? Ok, just joking... but who is going to train the meter reading populace to do the IT jobs? Considering it costs more for IT people than meter readers then I'd suspect most jobs would go overseas (to places like India or S.Korea where they aren't having these broadband problems).
Sometimes you have to put the needs of everyone else, and the world, before your own. Considering they can extend DSL 20 kilometers you can try that instead maybe? But here is a novel idea: Try to get your power company to install a Wi-Fi transmitter at your meter. Works great for me on water, gas and electricity, no one ever even gets out of the car.
And if I could get some competition for cable internet, which is the ONLY broadband available in my rural location...
Fuck you, at least you got Internet access, some people don't have broadband at all.
Get your Unix fortune now!
>Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.
Hams are just canaries in this fight, not villains.
BPL has been shown to cause radio interference to all users, amateur, military, and commercial. Michael Powell, then FCC chairman, squashed a report from the NTIA that said it causeinterference>/a, and the FCC required that frequencies allocated to government use be "notched out." That leaves just us citizens unprotected and ungagged (at least for now).
And before you say that HF radio isn't necessary anymore, and everyone who is anyone uses cell phones (of if they have buckets of money Iridium satphones) take a look at just one of thousands of uses, NOPAC. Last night on 10.148 Mhz (square in the middle of the band that BPL trashes), I heard a Singapore Airlines flight over the Pacific contacting a NOPAC control station in Alaska asking for route planning information, right on the heels of a JAL flight doing the same thing. The NOPAC instructions have detailed accounts of how to use HF radio when over the Pacific, which is what I heard last night.
Finally, the FCC didn't grant any license to BPL systems. Instead, it said that they would be allowed under Part 15 regulations. Those are the same regulations that govern radio controlled cars; in essence, they're allowed to use low power if they don't cause interference and if they accept interference. The NTIA and others argued that BPL was fundamentally different from a kid with a radio controlled car on 27Mhz, because BPL will be widespread both geographically and in spectrum -- occupying the entire area beteween 2MHz and 80Mhz.
The result: a few critical government frequencies get notched out, and everybody else gets told to call the power company and complain "if" there is any problem. And in the few test cases where this has happened, even in test trials, getting the power company to do anything has taken months, and only a few even tried, and of those few that tried, all but about three had to discontinue the project becuase they couldn't resolve the Part 15 complaints.
So yes, it hasn't happened widespread yet, and it hasn't caused widespread problems yet, but don't blame the people who are technically savvy enough to see what's going to happen.
And finally, don't you think it's strange that energy companies are getting a big help from the current administration to get into the ISP business? I mean, it's not like there's any connection between energy companies and the Bush administration, is there?
If you want fiber, push on getting fiber.
For the record: I always thought this was a brilliant idea - every household has at least one power outlet right? And it doesn't have to be broadband - even minimal speed might be beneficial for non-PC devices. Nevertheless - there appear obvious technological hurdles otherwise 'somebody somewhere' would have made a pretty penny with this already.
General FYI.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/Comp/Competition.htm
Scroll down a little and on the right. (PDFs)
--
"You've only got one finger left,
and it's pointing at the door."
well first off i'm a sparky for a major utility in the UK and routinely project manage the installation of overheads and cables etc.. so I'm fairly up to date with the latest & greatest
The first thing to point out is that you only get interference issues from overhead lines. Buried power cables are all screend, and laid in a special formation called trefoil, which virtually eliminates any associated EM field.
From a commercial point, by combining utilites i.e. power/Broadband your cutting down on running costs as everything is easier to maintain. Transmission/distributions systems are also a lot more secure (in terms of not going off) than telephone circuits.
For the overhead issues, firstly it all depends on which country you live in, the US/Canada has different votlages and frequency to everywhere else and is also much bigger with a lot more overhead. Therefore the practicalities are different; the phase spacing between the wires are much wider and creates a a larger interference area. In Europe the interference created is less of an impact.
Basically, BPL will be commercially very attractive in city centres where there either isn't a lot of fibre optics installed and/or the majority of the power network is fed from underground cables. As underground cables won't cause any interference and the bulk of the infrastructure is allready installed.
There is also an interesting variation on offer in the UK, called blink broadband. This takes the main ADSL connection from you telephone wires and then plug into your domestic power and use your own home main ring - you then plug your laptop computer into any power socket in the house and don't need to worry about having a phone point nearby. Not actually sure if its any use, as my guess is broadband will go wireless over then next decade. http://www.blinkbroadband.co.uk/
There are things we know we don't know and things we don't know we don't know. - Donald Rumsfeld
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
I don't need saving. I'm not a convict like you. So fuck off, Jesus-boy.
If VOIP stands for Voice over IP, then why doesn't BOPL stand for Broadband over Power Lines?
The following /. stories:
Google Invests in Power-Line Broadband
Cincinnati Gets Broadband Over Power Lines
Broadband Over Power Lines vs. Radio Relayers
High-speed Internet Access: Power Lines For Real
FEMA Opposes Broadband Over Powerlines
Massive Bandwidth over Powergrids?
Holding up BPL for the sake of HAM radio is like keeping cars off the highways so they won't interfere with bicycle traffic. HAM radio belongs in the ash-heap of history along with the telegraph and the steam locomotive. Society does not owe it to a bunch of self-absorbed hobbyists to hold up its progress to protect their hobby. The whole reason for having a democracy is to keep small groups of influential plutocrats from gumming things up for everyone else. Go BPL!!!!
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
Cable is more reliable in my area (East Coast) than electricity. I was without power for 2.5 weeks after hurricane Isabel. But my digital phone service came back quickly. A few months ago, I bought a 15,000 KW generator. The power is on more often than not, but when it is off you really miss things like ice and the internet. I would only rely on the power company for broadband service if it was the only option.
Holy crap, you mean you own a 15 MEGAWATT generator?
Jesus!
Audiophiles, too. (I know, flamebait) The amount of RFI generated will keep manufacturers of fancy power cords, aftermarket AC outlets, line conditioners, etc. busy for those wanting to listen to music instead of noise/MP3s/etc. It's gonna be a huge mess.
"Disaster strikes area A, and power goes out. Ham operator in area A can now transmit again." In the mean time the ham has sold/dismantled his kit. Who is going to keep a whole lot of stuff around if it has no function?
It doesn't matter if my cable goes out, because my TV and computer both need electricity!
I have been convinced for some time that wireless was doomed to remain a niche technology(useful in bars and coffee shops) both because it was so insecure, and because of the laws of physics. There is a very limited amount of total bandwidth available, so you would either have to invest ENORMOUS amounts in deploying a dense web of access points, or put up with spotty availability and erratic throughput. Now there is even more reason to believe that wireless will die in its infancy. Broadband over Power Lines(BPL) is really here! More and more you will be able to connect to the internet just by plugging into a power outlet. No worries about WEP or WAP, no keys to worry about or hub to configure. The infrastructure is mostly in place already. Just a few repeaters and muxes to add for the power companies. And they will very likely build this out on their own to save money by getting rid of meter readers. And as BPL catches on, it is inevitable that PC manufacturers will start to save cost, and create the KILLER advantage of convenience - by combining the network cord with the power cord on all PCs. Think of it, it is almost irresistible - one plug and you're good to go! The only place wireless will be wanted is places that have no electrical power... which is gonna make it real difficult to run a computer there for long... So say farewell to wireless and welcome the next big thing.... Broadband over power lines
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
Interference works both ways, but the BPL operators will have _NO_ legal recourse for my interference.
And if *I* happen to be *YOUR* neighbor. I'm comming over to your house late at night when your busy chatting it up. I will be more than happy to cut your coax, and splice in my 400 CCA battery jump start box (after I cut your external ground wire). We'll see how well your equipment likes that feedback.
My sister must have been in the beta area. She lives in Hyde hpark (an area of Cincinnati) and has had Cingery's BPL for about a year now. However, her (rental) house was so old with poor wiring that they ran an extension cord from close to her breaker to her computer rather than relying on the existing wiring. She's also, I think she said (she's not technical), only getting 1M, not 3M.
http://www.eham.net/articles/8929
Apparently, the FCC is adopting an arbitrary signal level standard for interfering BPL signals, rather than the clear, objective standard of "no harmful interference". If the BPL signal can be shown to be below the published Part 15 guidelines, it is deemed acceptable, EVEN IF IT COMPLETELY WIPES OUT RECEPTION on the affected ham bands. This is a MAJOR, if unofficial, policy shift AWAY from the traditional protection of licensed services from unlicensed Part 15 devices.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Verizon is cabling our neighborhood with Fiber Optics - what can beat the speed of light?
As an avid radio control plane flier I know that many of our flying fields across the country are right *under* these high power lines. BPL is being researched right now to determine if there is the possible interference for these frequencies as well. Radio control plane fliers may not be a big lobbying group as they are mostly a bunch of old guys in plaid pants and baseball caps, but you gotta love what one of those planes will do when "hit" by interference from a BPL enabled powerline. Bang, crash, "sorry about your window!"
nice. said a little abrasively but maybe it needs to be said as such to get noticed.
I was wondering who owns the power lines? etc. The power companies? Energy companies? Does this lead back to the rich oil companies? I'm just wondering cause those self-serving manipulative bastards seem to have been running around for well over 100 years squashing good ideas and technology with their thug tactics.
But with prices shooting up I'm hopeful towards alternatives. Wouldn't it be nice to get some clean enviro-friendly machine to generate all the power your home needs and go off grid?
Slashdot ran a story about this in 1999, promising almost the exact thing -- leaving small trial phase, high-speed over power lines... long distance now possible... ...
yeah. I'll believe it when it happens.
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
Letter to the Editor at PESN reviews recent coverage on Coast to Coast AM regarding the down sides of Power Grid Internet.
Tomorrow's news yesterday -- the bleeding, visionary edge.
My power company here has been offering connectivity for a couple years. PPL in Allentown. Not positive if it's over the AC copper or something laid next to it, but I know I can get high speed access from the power company...
My mistake, I was thinking half in PHP and half in Ruby at the time. Thanks for the correction. Now I know what's wrong with my latest project! (Just kidding)
;)
As a side note, I find it helpful to others to negate my karma bonus when making these corrections
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
Most BPL systems have RFI that is actually unacceptable (whether you think it that way or not is irrelevent- wait until the next disaster that might involve your area and you not being able to get help (which would happen if they rolled this stuff out).
With Corridor System's offering, you don't use the power lines to deliver it to your doorstep, you use tradtional means such as WiFi or fiber. Besides, you're not going to see better than 2 or so Megabits of TOTAL bandwidth with the BPL systems they're all using. Corridor's offering 10 Mbit and could offer 54Mbit. Big difference that.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas