Slashdot Mirror
Small Town USA Competing With India
William Hood writes "According to a news article at ABC, companies are sometimes opting to outsource to rural USA rather than foreign countries. Although it still achieves the same result of lowering the value of a job, I think the idea of moving to a larger house that costs less in a town with no traffic is a much better option than flying to Bangalore to train your replacement." From the article: "Sebeka is 14 miles from the closest traffic light, hours from the nearest Starbucks coffee shop and a far cry from the Chicago suburb he left. 'There is no traffic,' said technical consultant Clayton Seal, who also works in Sebeka. 'Anytime, day or night, you can cross Main Street -- almost don't have to look 'cause there's nobody there.' Seal also lost his job to outsourcing."
How exactly do you buy a larger house on a smaller salary? Chances are, if they move you to a more remote and cheaper part of the country, they're going to reduce your salary to an adjusted range for that region.
So let me get this straight... you move away from your family and friends. You pull your children out of their school, away from their family and away from their friends. You go through the trouble of selling your house and moving to a new place and buying a new house on your reduced salary. You lose the conveniences and diversity of a big city.
And what do you end up with? A job that could still always be outsourced if someone gets that bug up their ass. And what happens when that position is no longer there? Well, now you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and will probably have to move again because your new little podunk town isn't where all the jobs are - just your current one.
But if you want to inconvenience your family and live like a nomad, at the beck, whim and call of your employer - go for it.
For the record, my employer did this recently, too. But I refused to follow along unless they not only retained my previous salary dollar for dollar (not just salary GRADE), but gave me an increase. Most people, however, are not in a position to make such demands and will be in the "do it or we give your job to some guy in Russia" category.
Even companies that are doing this then move on to the next step of outsourcing, because no matter how cheap they can find labor in America, it's cheaper elsewhere. There are places without OSHA. Places without the same expectation of benefits. Places without the same taxation requirements or insurance. Places with cheaper construction, electricity and maintenance costs. If you can hire an engineer for $4-$7/hr outside of this country, why would you ever waste your money hiring an American when they could make more than that at Burger King?
To stay employable in the future in this country, you need to have highly marketable skills that are unlikely to be shipped overseas. Brush up on your ability to push a broom or ring up a cash register.
Seriously, any and every job that can be outsourced, eventually will be. I can't think of many that could not be. Even surgery eventually (since we saw the story of a surgery taking place across the ocean, via a remote/robot). Management could be handled overseas. Product manufacturing can be done over seas. Taking orders at a fast food drive through can be done overseas. Gas pumping can be automated. Even cashier work will eventually be automated. I guess security guard work is probably a sure bet. Police work. Janitorial work. And, I suppose, hollywood/acting type of work. Maybe teaching?
And yes, I'm a little bitter because I was too young to get into the game to enjoy the dot-com insanity and profit from it and now it feels less like a career every day and more like an 8-5 burger flipping job.
Ah, yes. Them dang foreigners are stealin' our jobs.
Wake up. It was never Seal's job in the first place. No-one owns a job or has a right to a job.
Although it still achieves the same result of lowering the value of a job
We are still a capitalist society. If someone is willing to do a job just as well (or better) than the guy currently doing it, and for less money, what do you think will happen?
For the guy that is accepting the job out in the country this may be an good thing idea because the cost of living is often much less out in the country than in the burbs or in a big city. I'm sure there are also people out there that like both working with computers and living on farms, all with the added benefit of having little to no commute to worry about.
Another good side effect of this would be bringing money into smaller, rural communities without bringing in Walmart (I live in Kentucky and there are many such areas neighboring the town that I live).
Regardless, I agree with Hood, I would very much prefer to hear that jobs are being outsourced more and more to Americans rather than being sent overseas to India.
Great, sign me up! Wait, what? Rural areas don't get cable, you have to use satellite for the TV channels? What about DSL...no?
Seriously, my parents live in a rural area and the best option they have for internet connections is dialup (even worse, they have AOL). Unless you also want to spend money on a satellite internet connection, be prepared to go back to the internet stone age. The only way to get around this currently is to BE a high speed ISP branching out to a rural area.
Debronsky said the town's isolation will help guarantee workers will stick around. "There's no other work within two, three hundred miles," Debronsky said with a smile.
Translation: "We can treat these people like complete shit if we choose, and most of them will just roll over and take it due to the hassle of relocating to find alternate employment."
This seems so extreme. How about instead of going from NY,NY or SF,CA to Nowhere,USA they just go to a cheaper state in a decent city. Like places in the Midwest (the Baltimore based company could have tried a suburb of Chicago or something and saved money).
I'm going to college in a pretty rural spot right now, and it's driving me crazy after living in various metros. The food choices suck, the entertainment is low, and I'm sick of all the poorly maintained pickups.
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
Living in the city is important to some people, but not to all. I lived in Seattle for a dozen years. My wife comes from a small town in eastern Washington state (we met in college in Seattle). Every time we go back to visit her folks, I always end up thinking "this is such a wonderful place - too bad there aren't any jobs".
Personally I'd take this sort of job in a short second. Friendlier people, a real sense of community, no commute, an amazingly lower cost of living... sure sounds good to me. Plus it'd make my wife happy - she's still a small-town girl at heart.
#DeleteChrome
Some positive things I can personally attest to about living in a rural area:
Your kids can graduate as Valedictorian or top 10% with relative ease
You can turn your TV/music way up and no neighbor cares.
Because it takes longer to get from A to B, you get a lot less visitors, particularly annoying visitors.
You actually take grass for granted (note: When I went to college, people were surprised at how I would cut across a grassy area without even thinking about it--apparently grass was respected if it was next to a sidewalk).
More space for personal projects.
Less traffic (as pointed out in the article).
No "Homeowners Association"...if you want to do home improvements or park cars in the yard, have at it.
An excellent view of the night sky.
Those are just a few of the things I miss about living in a rural area...
While it's probably a better cost cutting measure than outsourcing because lower cost of living - the whole bad thing about being in a super rural place is that you are miles from nowhere - and travel is getting more expensive and a PITA (to fly).
The other problem - even with the internet - is that you are isolated from the action - only so much business (to business) can be conducted over email/websites (talking about more major deals). Many clients still feel more comfortable with someone they can meet face to face.
This type of move is good for a programming/manufacturing (branch of the) business but not something that involves sales. Or something that is obviously website oriented. Otherwise you end up losing more than you save. It's not something I'd recommend to a small company trying to start up.
There is no problem doing this in a small US town.
The problem is that u need to find very well trained people who are willing to live there and work from there and still be happy with what they get paid.
Its a funny thing that u guys think there are no traffic lights in india. The cities where these outsourcing companies work from are not 14 miles away from traffic lights and not 50 miles from a starbucks like coffee shop. Its hard to see how a computer savy group can live without computer shops around, without the modern amenities and most importantly without coffee !!
USA Companies always say that they support the USA. How do you support our country if you're sending our jobs overseas? How can you support America by giving jobs we need to other places overseas? Some companies say they're patriotic - how does taking a job from an american and giving it to someone 5k+ miles away make a company patriotic?
Outsourcing of our jobs should be made illegal. You're doing nothing more than hurting your fellow countrymen..
Oh, hell, what am I saying. It's not like *ANY* big company truly cares.
Outlaw Outsourcing.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
...wonder what these corporate clowns are gonna do when they wake up one day and realize they've gutted their own consumer base.
Well, wake up amerrikans! Your life costs too much. To you, and to the world. Jobs are being outsourced because even your society can't sustain (by exploitation of the rest of the world) your own inflated luxuries.
--
Eat at Joe's.
No surprise here. In the past America's high economic success allowed even unproductive Americans high levels of access to piss away resources. Globalization is changing all of that. Now the domain of the wealthy are peppered across the earth and taking a new form that resembles a mega-global reincarnation of the Lord/Serf era.
Stop invalid scientific research. Ask your local scientists to feed their lab rats with a phytoestrogen-free chow.
Heh, depends on the rural area. My favorite place in the world is State College, you have any type of food you can imagine, there are plenty of entertainment options both on and off campus(theatres, cinemas, bars etc), a somewhat decent public transportation system if you don't want to use your bike, and the cost of living is almost nothing. Not to mention you are only a few hours drive from NYC, DC, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh.
It's also pretty rural(and thus cheap!) as well. I was renting an apartment that covered everything but electricity(but they paid for the gas heating and cooking), phone and internet for $270 a month. I had my own room and only had to share a bathroom with 1 other person. For about $100 more per month you can get your own bathroom and a roomier kitchen in a very modern apartment. You can eat well for about $50 a week etc. Rural doesn't have to mean it sucks!
Monstar L
If someone is going to do the same job as you for less money and arguably as well, or even better, not many people are going to keep you on the job just because of the fact you live in the same country as them.
In a capitalist country, how could you justify it as a citizen to keep your job when someone else is willing to do it for cheaper?
That's how the game is played, the harder you work and less you complain the more likely you will have a job. This whining about outsourcing is just a bunch of over-priviledged people who are used to having it easy.
If you want your job back, move to India and work for $5/hour, that's right you didn't just want "your" job (its a position, not a posession) you wanted the paycheck.
Get into a field of work that can't be outsourced if you want job security.
[cx]
Don't you have any friends outside of major metropolitan areas? Mine laugh when I tell them what I pay and what I'm getting for what I pay. I live in San Diego and the prices here (like a lot of other places) put shoe-box sized pieces of property into ranges I'd call pretty high.
Local economy, population density, there are a lot of things to take into account. So I don't think its so far off saying in a smaller part of the country, even with the reduced salary things like house-size will increase even as cost (often dramatically) decreases. Apple to oranges.
Anyhow, a lot of people live in urban areas for other reasons and the trade-offs to moving into a bigger house in a smaller town with a smaller economy might not do.
Personally I'm getting a little sick of the riduculous prices on just about everything. A quarter of a million dollars for a postage stamp sized piece of property far enough outside the actual metropolitan area that I can't actually enjoy it without commuting into it (with heavy, typical Southern California traffic) isn't sounding so good.
Quack, quack.
State College is about as rural as Des Moines and Fargo. For city dwellers, I'm sure that it sounds as if it is rural, but it really isn't.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
I can code anything you can imagine, and work with any software program. I live in nowheresville PA :P Nothing to do here but bum on the internet 24/7 and wait for Dungeons and Dragons Online to be released.
God spoke to me.
I lived in Sebeka in 1990, it was a really nice little town. Good school, nice people, a public pool and ice rink. It even has a little river running through it.
I don't remember it being THAT small tho. I wouldn't want to live there now, but if I ever wanted to raise a family I could think of worse places.
How can you go wrong living in a place less than 10 miles from Nimrod, MN??
And then he did that thing with that stuff and it was like, wow...
My boss is always looking to outsource our jobs to India, China or Poland. Fortunately they are so paranoid about people stealing our business ideas, they never go through with their plans.
You will notice a distinct lack of protectionism when it comes to outsourcing jobs. When our industries are being undermined by cheaper foreign imports, the government starts introducing tariff barriers and/or quotas. This is because the rich people at the top of the chain are being affected. In contrast, job outsourcing benefits these same rich people, so there is no reason for the government to introduce protective measures. The government only protects its direct paymasters, not the little fish.
OT: Housing in the big cities sucks! Yes I make almost double what I would back home in the Midwest. I am paying 40% more for housing for 20% less space which sucks.
I went to school in a place called Cookeville. It was only about an hour and a half away from the city of Chattanooga where I grew up, and before I knew it, I totally hated the small town feel. Cookeville was a place where old people went to die and it drained the life out of everyone there.
If you're thinking about going to Tennessee Tech, don't! It's the worst school in Tennessee; probably the entire south.
While there a lot of my friends got jobs in call centers for SunTrust Bank. There was even a data center there for Fleetguard and the traditional factories.
I guess if you dig that environment, it's not to bad. They did have a wallmart and a StarBucks on campus.
I do miss the $300/2 bed room places sometimes compared to living back in the city, and the nice parks and waterfalls, but other than that I really don't miss bumble-fuck backwater America.
Sometimes I wonder if it's harder to understand tech support outsourced to India, or southern US.
What surprises me is that firms seem more than willing to outsource entire projects to another country or to some out of the way rural place, but as soon as the subject of current employees working from home comes up, it immediately get's dismissed for reasons usually related to "making sure the work is getting done".
It's actually not a bad little town to live in. Yeah, they've had DSL for several years now. Yeah, they've had cable TV for a looong time. It's not as bad as you'd think. There's little traffic but not no traffic. Just enough to keep you on your toes when trying to cross the street at midnight after a night at the municipal liquor store on Main St. There's people there that I went to high school with that got a better job, because of that company, than anything else available around there. That's a bunch of less jobs that got shipped off to India. Everyone thought it wouldn't last either but they have so something must be going right there. They've even got a *gasp* website. http://www.sebeka.com./ Yee haw!
Only on /. would an anonymous post be mod'ed up to +4 for semantically parsing the words "his job".
If it wasn't his job, why was he getting paid by his employer for doing it?
A few data points from Plattsburg, Missouri (pop. 2,375), where I call home... based on what I can tell (and I've lived in Chicago and SoCal, as well as other rural areas) these data points could be duplicated in many areas:
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
Why don't you do like I did when I lost my job and start your own business? Oh, that's right, it's easier to be bitter and argue that the world owes you a living.
It's all we have left!!!
I live in Harrisonburg, a college town in VA where $35,000 would actually be a pretty good starting salary for a programmer since the cost of living is $17,000 a year. I'd rather be paid $40-45,000 a year here starting out than $60,000 in Fairfax, VA which is a pretty large IT area in the US, because the money would go farther here.
:-D
Seriously, these companies are abysmally stupid. They can always hire an English-speaking CS or CIS student and start a new branch in bumblefuck USA for much less than going to India. The best part about it for the management is that it's all domestic and if they do it right, they can drive out that day and talk to the team in person.
Like many CS students here, I'd rather work in this town for $45,000 because it's close enough to bigger areas that it's not a struggle to get out on the weekend, but it's small enough to make an entry level salary really attractive. I can honestly say that I'd be very happy making that same salary around here for 4-5 years because barring VA's tax rate going through the roof (yeah, fuck you Gov. Warner!) it'd be easy to really save and invest A LOT out here on that kind of salary.
Outsource to bumblefuck USA, not Bangalore India. That should be our new anti-offshoring slogan
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
I've heard from a tech company based in the US that it now costs the about same to manufacture a Silicon wafer in Asia as it does in the US. Not sure if we're talking bare Si, or an IC, or both. Also not sure if the reason is due to increased salary demands, or rising shipping costs or whatever, but I found it interesting.
During the Democratic presidential primary I heard one candidate talk about the need to stop giving welfare money to large corporations but instead give tax breaks and incentives to small businesses. The rationale is that small businesses keep jobs here in America rather than outsource them. I like the idear not only because it keeps jobs in America, but it fits in well with the American Dream. Giving people the opportunities of making a good living while being your own boss.
Abstinence is a government conspiracy. www.SafeSexZone.co
If moving to a smaller town is an option, why isn't moving to Bangalore? Oh, I know - "irreconcilable cultural differences". Somehow, when immigrants to the US encounter the same culture shock, it's all right because they're getting "a better life". Talk of being spoilt.
Disclaimer: I'm an alien in the US. From India, at that.
So now when I have to call tech support it's going to be:
1. Dial2. Howdy Thar, hows you doin-
3. *CLICK*
If only there were no language barrier...
.. now people get to decipher thick hillbilly accents instead of thick indian accents.
Sure, off-shoring the workers saves money for the people at the top ... but someone has to manage those workers and that means they will start to learn your business.
Eventually, they will be able to take your business away from you. After all, all of their people will be working for 1/10th the cost (even the CEO's) and how will your business be able to compete at that rate?
I believe the goal for most of the companies doing the off-shoring is to make big profits, quickly, and retire before the real bill comes due.
That can't and won't happen (making it illegel to outsource). As long as north america has a strong capitalist force which everyone embraces, it will continue to be fine to outsource. What will happen is that eventually it will level out all around the world. The global economy will make everybody poor. Except the rich who run the corporations, they will get richer. The gap between rich and poor will widen significantly. What will happen then? Maybe a revolution.
Meh.
My company just opened a Somerset, KY help desk. Beat the company I just left where I had to train my replacement in Tijuana Mexico!!
because they know we can't f*cking kill them!
Many scumbag corporations, especially utility companies hide in concrete and brick towers without windows and when you call about a problem with service or billing a computer decides if it should route your call to India or Pakistan. And when the idiot on the other end just doesn't get it, and you are at the point of killing them if you could, they just grin and hang up on you knowing that you have no power what-so-ever, that they control you and the situation 100%.
Many years ago when everything was made here, serviced here, answered here, there was accountability. Now, they have you by the short hairs and they know it.
What can you do? Nothing. Bitch a little but in the end you still have to dish out the bucks and take what they give you, even if you don't like it at all..
It might be the fact that they're watering the grass with non-potable water... sometimes I walk by the park down the street when the sprinklers are on and honestly it smells like sewage. That is yet another thing that makes me miss the country and the mountains... nature. Nature waters with fresh clean rain, not recycled grey water.
This is slightly off-topic but I was thinking about why governments do not protect workers from outsourcing and I had an idea... The Government makes decisions that favour big business, since big business is the government's paymaster. Sometimes these decisions involve sending us to war and getting us killed just so they can get more bribes and directorships from companies like Halliburton. I have a radical proposal. Why don't we just bribe the government directly? Imagine if everyone in the country gave £10 a year to a special government bribe fund. You would have several hundred million pounds (or dollars if you're American) with which to bribe the right people. Suddenly we might be able to create legislation that benefits the public at the expense of big business. Bribing the government to get what you want would be a lot better for your health than protesting. When you protest, you have to stand out in the rain and get clubbed over the held by riot police. You don't see the board of directors of Raytheon protesting in the street. They are smart enough to know that bribery is far more effective. For example, if the government was being bribed by arms companies to invade Iran, we could counter-bribe and prevent it. This kind of thing could even work internationally. Many people around the world would be better off if the U.S. did not invade Iran. On an international scale you would have many billions of dollars in the bribe kitty! How can we go about pulling this off?
But the internet porn is the same...
Rural America is quite different from rural Europe in that it typically consists of very marginalized societies that live in their own communities governed by their own rules and frequently exist outside the main judiciary system. Yes I'm talking rednecks with shotguns here.
Rural America, unlike rural Europe does not benefit from equalization funds similar to Europe and resembles Bangalore India much more than it resembles villages in coastal France or northern Scotland.
When you move to rural areas you also give up a lot that is taken for granted in urban environments, that is selection of foods and products, access to culture and amenities and the ability to mingle with like-minded people. There simply is just a lack of everything.
Now, the housing cost compensates a little bit especially if you intend to have more than a couple of kids. What you have to offset this against is the real possibility that even if you manage to hold on to your job your spouse may not find gainful employment in a rural or semi-rural area. This is frequently a problem for my co-workers who have well educated but frequently underemployed spouses and girlfriends.
Rural areas may get hit hard by the impending energy crisis. There is nothing for public transport in where I live and no real chance of seeing any. Having a car is an absolute necessity to even stay fed and clothed. Driving distances tend to be enormous. My work place is 60 miles from my house while the nearest grocery shop is at least 5 miles away.
As a European I can't get over that I have to travel that far for milk and bread with no walkable community. And I'm actually in the main town's subdivision!
Having ended up where I am I'm seriously reconsidering returning to Europe. You can make a little more money working here vs Europe but you have to sacrifice sooo much more!
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
You just can't !
State College is about as rural as Des Moines and Fargo. For city dwellers, I'm sure that it sounds as if it is rural, but it really isn't.
:)
Yeah, some of these kids have never been to places like most of Montana, Wyoming, or the Dakotas. Go hang out in Cut Bank, MT for a couple years, and tell me you dig the rural lifestyle. Far as I'm concerned, almost nothing east of the Appalachians is "rural"...you're not rural if you're within an hour or two of a city of a million or more, dammit!
State College is a nice town, though.
If I've said it once I've said it a half-dozen times: "Outsource to Oklahoma. It's like a third world country!"
We have pockets of high tech surrounded by wasteland. People work hard and the wages are low. So is the cost of living. The roads are bad. You need an off road SUV to drive on city streets. People do have a high school edumacation. And the speak Engrish better than some non-natives. It's a great place to live but you wouldn't want to visit here. Tulsa itself is a mecca for low cost call centers. We have over 70. It's one saving grace is that folks here are pretty friendly.
"Ignorance is bliss" isn't just our motto. It's a way of life. Oh, and if you ask someone from Oklahoma City what the natural color of dirt is. They'll tell you it's red. Try it.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Having tech companies and telecom-heavy businesses is one way of getting optical fibre laid/lit in rural districts. You can be sure those companies won't go unless the pipe is there, so the state/county has to get it done. Good for the locals (unless of course they like their lifestyle without DSL and lattes).
Of course, I didn't move to "Bumfuck, Noplace, U.S.A" -- I moved to a place which had a fair amount of local high tech biz taking advantage of the lower cost of living, not quite the rural extreme depicted dependent on a single remote employer.
What tends to happen is that the high-tech people in a rural area with traditional low-tech employment opportunities tend to be the local "rich folk" that stimulate and reinvigurate the local economy.
You could've hired me.
When you have a bunch of kids, things like community and safety weigh more heavily than expensive coffee and live theater.
Here in Jacksonville, FL the pay is good and there are lots of job. But can't let the kids out of my sight. When I visit my hometown in upstate NY, there are few jobs, but I can throw the kids out of the house at 7:00 am and let them run wild all day, knowing that everyone in the town knows whose kids they are and will watch out for them.
To a parent, that's worth more than just about anything.
People talk about "the cost of living" but what they don't talk about is "the cost of reproduction". Some people think this difference is subtle but really it is enormous.
Why do you think all the open-borders, guest-worker and outsourcing advocates continually talk about the "greying of America"?
It's because there has been a demographic collapse caused by movement to the cities. The early boomers surfed the wave of real estate and lots of cheap younger labor from their younger cohort but the mid to late boomers were hit by a crushing confluence of circumstances that effectively sterilized them. No profession was hit harder by this de facto sterilization than programmers who worked in male-saturated ghettos.
The "leaders" responsible for cramming the boomers into the sterilizing cities, frequently touting the value of "Zero Population Growth" and the "ecological footprint of US citizens" are the same "leaders" who opened the borders and threw middle-aged programmers out on the street to find jobs competing with illegal Mexican laborers in Home Depot and Walmart.
Seastead this.
Don't outsource to India, outsource to Indiana
You forgot:
- Lower tolerance for anyone or anything "different" be that your race, your opinions, your taste in clothes, or hell, even the way you style your hair.
How could Seal lose his job to outsourcing? I doubt any Indian singers could hit those notes in Kiss From A Rose the way he does. :::swoons::::
So I called up Force9 (a UK internet service provider) last night because a mate had let me know that my website (which I run from my own webserver) was down and after a bit of diagnostics I had discovered that my IP address had changed.
I was told that the guy who had put notes on the system that I wanted a static IP address had failed to put the order in several months in advance when I had taken out the package so I had been on a dynamic IP address (which, by pure luck, had stayed static up until now).
The guy in the call center told me that the guy who had made the mistake was no longer with the company and that he could order the static IP which would be actioned on my next billing cycle and no earlier because to do something like that was against company policy.
So, to recap... they did something wrong, supplied the wrong product in fact, but will not make any effort to rectify the problem until my next billing cycle IN 10 DAYS which leaves me with my webserver pretty much down for 12 days (DNS changes when the little blighter settles down to the static).
I pointed out that I was disgusted and the guy on the phone held his ground because he was not behind a counter I could jump over to kick his ass but safe on the end of a phone line where the most I could do was watch his smug face on the webcams. http://portal.f9.net.uk/webcams/
So it does not matter if the call center is in Bangalore India, Buttf*ck USA or anywhere else on this earth so long as they are just out of reach of people like me who might one day make the news because we are on the roof of a tall building with a high powered rifle and a direct line of sight to the exits of the call center.
Be nice, sponsor me: http://jailbreak.ragabonds.org.uk
Southern ohio. The only thing I really think I'm missing is an ocean. I mean I have access to all 4 seasons, reasonably priced restaurants, housing, insurance, several major metropolitan areas (Cincy, Columbus, Indy, Cleveland, Detroit, Louisville are all 3 hours or less away) when I need some culture. Ok I'd also like some decent public transportation, but having your own car is easy enough and has advantages (visiting people/places 1-3 hours away is easy).
The big thing that seems to be lacking are jobs though that seems to be changing. I've always thought they ought to outsource to the MW.
Who ever got the idea that the programmers in Bangalore make 5 to 7 dollars per hour? Typical wage of a programmer with a college degree and 4+ years of experience is $20 per DAY. That's expected to be a 12 hour day, BTW...
That's Ok, since it takes about 5 Bangalore programmers, plus someone stateside to do supervision, to replace a single US programming resource....
Pretty soon the hottest trend will be "onshore insourcing". :-)
If you've worked with folks from Bangalore/Hyderabad/etc, you know why.
So now the companies not only get to pay you a competitive salary (according India standards), but have converted you into a captive worker.
They must be drooling of pleasure right now.....
Like most college towns (real ones where the college makes the town), I'm sure it is.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
"The food choices suck." Could you like, learn to cook? I saved me when I first moved to Winnemucca, NV. The food situation did improve by the time I left, but it was pretty desperate when I first got there. As for entertainment, see what the more sober locals do, and go from there. Ignore the bar crowd, all they do is get drunk and fall down a lot. As for the pickups, is the paint peeling (like mine, Thanks a lot Ford!), or did the mufflers rot out? There isn't much you can do about it in either case, so you'll just have to deal with people who are relatively unconcerned with surface appearances. At worst, use the same skills (Some One Else's Problem Field.) you use to not see the homeless in the big city, and blot them out.
Yes. And not only that, soon a lot of those well paid engineering jobs will be overseas as well. The manufacturing plants are all in Mexico or overseas, why not have the engineers there as well?
Hmmm, I guess this rural outsourcing could work as long as there's electricity, plumbing, and high speed internet access. The main thing that would concern me personally about living in a rural region is the fact that as a minority, I might not be too welcome. But heck, I'm not that wild about hob knobbing with the neighbors anyway, so if the nearest is miles away, well so what? I prefer the big city for its excitement and diversity, but small towns have their charms too. A bunch of tech people moving out there can only make this better, right?
[pop open the bubbly for post 500]
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Remember the old "Tulsa, a great place to hang your hat" campaign? We always said "Tulsa, a great place to hang your-self!" aahha It was nice growing up and a great place to raise a family. I'm glad I got out tho. Now if I could just earn enough $$ to move to SF bay area. ;)
-Xen
www.sebeka.com
Or pay a bit more for a house and stick in an "unofficial" rental unit and make $12-24 k a year renting it out (actually, getting "official" units approved isn't horribly difficult).
-b.
"We are still a capitalist society. If someone is willing to do a job just as well (or better) than the guy currently doing it, and for less money, what do you think will happen?"
*ears perk up*
Did someone say Open Source?
Seriously in-sourcing is the one justification for broadband as a infrastructure. Cars and phones were once in the same postion as broadband. A luxury. The cars and phones didn't change, but the circumstances surrounding them did.
I've always thought that locating suport-desk or other 'low-level' jobs made a lot more sense for a variety of reasons: same language/easier communication, values/social norms, time-zones, transportation.
On a related issue, I've always wondered why large companies didn't locate programing work centers near large universities in cheaper cities.
I graduated about 10 years ago from one such large midwestern university and discovered that "all" (most) the good jobs were in the Bay Area or the Boston-NY-DC megalopolis. I can program from the dark side of the moon, and even now most of the people I work with are remote. Yet I have to work in the NY burbs where anything with 4 walls and a roof costs 500K USD. I would much have prefered to live in some mid-sized midwestern city (with good amenties, schools, university), near my family, etc... They could have paid me 1/3 less and I would still come out ahead financially. It costs about 2 times more to live here than in my university town, which means I have to earn 3 times more (gross) to reach parity. My company even has a branch sales office there, just none of the programming/engineering jobs. Those midwestern universites crank out a LOT of grads many of which would like to stay in the region.
Umm... The Bush tax cut did that. It was a personal level tax cut. Which MOST small business are a S Corp, Partership, or Sole Prop. or an LLC which can be any. A lot of older family Businesses are traditional C Corps. That dividend tax cut helped them as well as the big guys.
Plus it makes Medical Expenses for the Self-employed (S, sole or Partnership) 100% tax deductable just like the C Corp has. And that is why unemployment is low and small businesses are growing at record rates.
The democrats always have hit small businesses hard. Everytime they tamper with the top tax brackets it hammers Small Businesses since many retain earnings at the owner(s) personal tax rates.
Like Athens, GA. Go Dawgs!!!
If it helps, I was looking for a residential broadband provider and they've just been crossed off my list.
For really rural, drive 3 hours south to the east-central part of West Virginia (Pocahontas County, for example).
This argument is constantly floating around, but it makes no sense. Oil being traded in dollars makes almost no difference. It's the goods that are purchased that is the issue. Suppose I am a Chinese oil company. I have yuan to buy oil with. I go to the currency market, and exchange my yuan for dollars and pay the dollars to Saudi Aramco. Now suppose the Saudis want to buy some of those $29 DVD players. They go back to the FX market, convert the dollars back to yuan, and buy the DVD players. The only benefit that the U.S. gets from this situation is that both parties briefly held Dollars. This is called Seignoriage. Suppose the money is in dollars for three months while the trade is completed, then if all world oil were traded in Dollars (which it's not), then the seignoriage is only about two billion dollars a year. Two billion dollars doesn't keep a 10 trillion economy floating.
"...access to culture and amenities and the ability to mingle with like-minded people."
Hey! What are we? Chopped liver?
I live in a great town of just over 2000 people. It is very different from when I lived in the Kansas City area, but I wouldn't trade it for the world. I work as a software engineer for a small/medium size company that has a great work environment. I just bought a 1603 sq ft house four months ago for $45k. So lets see...
1) work in the IT world (check)
2) have a great house for little money (check)
3) have 3MB DSL to my house (check)
4) 3 minute commute to work...on my bike (check)
Yup...I love it here. Outsource to these regions would be a very nice alternative.
Got any questions about rural America and IT works? Feel free to ask.
(wow...am I an info-mercial?)
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
I could care less what people's vehicles look like. I'm referring to the pickups spewing thick black clouds over 100 yards. Way too much of that where I am.
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
Cletus: Stranger! You're tresspassin' on my dirt farm!
Man: Ah, do you happen to need a mesiah?
Cletus: No, but I'll take them sacks of money from ya.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
This is a bummer. I looked up crossUSA right after reading the article. I really got excited when I saw a health care systems job, until I saw it involved moving out of state. The cost of living here is one of the lowest in the country, so I'm able to compete if only they would trust me to get the job done. I've got a cable connection and a cell phone, so I'm as easy to reach as anyone in an office and trust is not really required.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Sooner or later you have to make money. Holding up in the most remote location you can find so you'll get hired for the least money can keep you alive but around the age of 30 you'll realize you can't work forever and you'll need to start accumulating massive amounts of money if you want to partake of modern medicine.
You'll die young because you wanted to stay in software, but whether dying young was necessary or not, a lot of people are going to still be around after you pass away. You'll have achieved nothing but miss out, and no-one's going to care why you missed out.
The other thing you'll realize is that Indians are buying bigger houses. Chinese are buying bigger cars. Your college buddies are moving to more extravagent neighborhoods. But you're in the same situation you were in 10 years ago.
Most humans want to be in a better situation than they were in 5 minutes ago. Whether you feel a poorer situation is mandated by the decline in software jobs or not, the world is going to be richer tomorrow than it is today.
Meanwhile you're degrading your situation and making sacrifices to stay in software. You know, no-one else cares.
Are building their infrastructure so that their internal economy can take over. They are WAY large enough to only really need raw materials and energy soon, they won't need to export much-just like the US in the 50s and 60s. The bulk of our trade then was internal. We existed more on an cooperative economy then, the same dollar travelled around the region, funding a plethora of jobs. Now the dollar funds one or two jobs, then a few government jobs, then overseas it goes to be invested there. And back then when we didn't do that as much is when we grew the largest middle class ever seen before in the planets history.
We are in a transition now, we'll see the results IF China and India can lock in their energy and materials supplies. China in particular is doing it the smart way, they either are signing government level 20 year contracts for energy (all we do is let middleman skimmers jack the price up), or are outright buying up oilfields and mines wherever the greenbacks they have horded are still good. And building POWER, any way they can, they understand that true wealth has to be produced,it has to be manufactured, mined or grown, that's IT, anything else is just static, it's wealth rearrangement, with social/economic entropy thrown into the mix. I'd say they have completely trounced the US and Europe when it comes to long range planning, they have been playing us for suckers and letting us build their infrastructure for them. So when that time comes-which it will-when the US market is not needed, they won't care. They will have over a billion people in their own market.
Yes, it will suck here bad, sometime in the upcoming decade is my best guess. You can't have a leveling without the high areas dropping. The part not talked about as much though that will really screw the pooch is that alternative cheaper level jobs are being "insourced" to highly illegal aliens. the IT world doesn't see it, but I guarantee you the blue collars are noticing it, and when the housing bubble crash comes with the resultant lowering of the entire economy there IS going to be some political backlash over both "sourcing" in and out.
I live serious rural now, on a huge farm, and no way would I move now to the big city. I don't make much, but I know I can continue to make *some* and food and water and shelter and heat are guaranteed, and I have some solar all paid off so electricity for the next 20 years or so is guaranteed. and while some might havbe been watching the big game on the widescreen or improving their score in some FPS, today I was skinning our new greenhouse. We just went from 9 months to 12 months growing season in a big way. what we can't eat, we sell, simple concept. No matter what the economy does, people will need to eat, and if fuel prices keep going up, locally produced means locally shipped = "cheaper" to buy.
I like covering the options.
I am getting sick and tired of companies claiming that they can save a lot of money by outsourcing to India, China, Phillipines or Europe. This is all bull. Let the employees work from home and make them come in on a designated "meeting day" for face to face meetings. Your day to day interaction could easily done with video conferencing and IM. Companys can save on office space, electricity, computers, etc. Besides most programmes have better equipment at home then what the company will be willing to spend anyway. Employee would be much more loyal and productive. I know I would. No more dealing with rush hour traffic. No more interruptions from rediculous office politics. I would probably end up working more hours because I can work around MY schedule as opposed to the 9to5 corporate schedule. I know what most employers would say about this. Exactly what my managers said - "Then I couldn't manage you". Last I checked managing involves more then what time I came in and what time I left. That argument doesn't hold any way. After I got this answer to my suggestion they sent a few projects to India - how the hell are you going to "manage" people on the other side of the planet who work in a time zone with a 12 hour differntial who you have never met? I don't know - maybe I'll have to get an MBA to understand "the business side" of it.
This is the first time on slashdot, I can comment from my first hand experience as this company is where we outsourced outr work and I met Dave La Reau about a month ago in person. What they won't tell you is that they took a 3 month project last one year and it is still not complete!! His company hired people and sent them to our site as experts when they barely had any knowledge of the platform/technology. They were learning on the job while charging over $40 an hour rate. It is shocking to see them trying to get publicity on ABC news when they provide such crappy skills that mediocre offshore contracting firms can provide much better!!
Where in America can you get 4 walls and a roof for 500k?
I am having the exact opposite response to living in a rural area after living in a metro area my entire life. I moved to Wimberley, TX (about 35 miles south-west of Austin) a few months back for school at Texas State. Sure, there aren't as many choices for food here in town, I can walk most everywhere. And if I can't walk there, it's less than a mile away. But when I go back to town, I look around, and everything is so fake and fabricated, it's horrible.
When living in a metro area I would look out my window and see my neighbor's house. Now, when I look out my window (well, one of the 4) I see a nice creek, trees and deer. Did I mention it actually gets *dark* at night..and so quiet the only thing I can hear is the crickets?
I guess it takes the right mindset to really appricate living in a rural area, and it doesn't seem that one can enjoy it unless they really open up their eyes and ears and realize how awesome it truely is.
Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
I just moved to Miami beach from N.E. a few months ago. The wages here seem terrible. The loaded barrons, tycoons and drug lords out of Russia, Columbia, Latin America, and the rich retiree's from up north don't make life any easier.
I'd be happy to do some tech work at 15$/hr, I didn't think there was a market down here. (em: mpmiami55 'at' yahoo dot com)
Dell is opening a plant in Winston Salem, NC this year.
The so called progressive liberals elite that denigrate the "red" states and the "nascar" fans that listen to "country" music and the "bible" thumpers. Having lived in both "red" and "blue" states and big cities and small town, I find the least tolerant areas of the country to be Boston, MA, San Francisco, CA and Seattle, WA, and some of the most tolerant to be Rawlins, WY, and Manitou Springs, CO. Although, antecdotally, I've heard places to avoid are big towns in the midwest and southeast (Indianapolis, Chicago, Atlanta)...
;^) And in LA, they sort of just ignore people who are different, so I guess it depends on what big city you are in...
;^)
Of course that's probably just because I'm "misinformed" or a "red-neck" (oh yeah, I'm asian, but a redneck at heart), but if you don't believe me, try wearing a cowboy hat and boots in downtown seattle or san francisco sometime, or drive with the windows rolled down with country music booming on your radio. People who don't give a shit about rap booming, will for some reason they'll go out of the way to give you shit if it's country music. Oh yeah, don't even mention you're a republican unless you want someone to throw starbucks coffee on you, or your house TP'd and egged if you put a republican political banner on your front lawn...
New York, however seems to be decently tolerant, although maybe I didn't notice, because in NY everyone is being an asshole to everyone regardless of their group identification
But don't feed me your "lower tolerance" shit okay?
Well Charter has All-Ammerican tech support and customer service.
this is like shadowrun becomming reality. these big businesses will basicly end up running these small towns.
I simply don't understand this argument. Let's assume that he drives 70 miles extra each day and uses up 2 gallons of gas. So that's rough $5 per day and less than $2000 per year. And frankly it's not going to be much more than that since he'll group tasks together and do them in one trip. Even if gas doubles in price, that's $4000 a year in gas.
We ignore cars with better fuel economy or other strategies for saving gas.
In comparison, how much does the house cost? I figure based on my own casual research, that he's probably looking at a 20-40% markdown in home price due to his more remote location, maybe 50-100k in savings for what sounds like a sizeable house.
Even with a sharp rise in gas prices, I don't see a real issue here. You just aren't saving money through shorter commutes. The real savings is in time, that's what people pay for.
In fact many people actually lose money selling their houses in a rural market. (Hint: Never buy in a market in which you are able to talk down the owner by 15-20% of their asking price... the same will happen to you!) And with gas prices and people moving closer to the city it is only getting worse. I've heard 12-18 months to have a decent chance of getting your money back.
The urban markets aren't going to do that well either. I imagine that within a few years, these big urban markets, adjusted for inflation, are going to be big money losers. In such a situation, you probably are better off buying based on what current value it has to you rather than planning on some future nebulous profit. So a cheaper house serves the same function as a more expensive one.
Comparatively speaking crime is lower. However the town I lived did have quite a bit more crime then you might expect. Murder, drugs, sexual misconduct, vandalism.
More than you'd expect, but less than an urban setting. I guess whether that works for you or not is subjective.
In fact many people actually lose money selling their houses in a rural market. (Hint: Never buy in a market in which you are able to talk down the owner by 15-20% of their asking price... the same will happen to you!) And with gas prices and people moving closer to the city it is only getting worse. I've heard 12-18 months to have a decent chance of getting your money back.
Maybe different regions of the country have different behavior. Here in California, there is this huge decades long move to more rural (not necessarily true rural, I count here moves from San Francisco to a Sacramento suburb) areas. There are huge differentials in home prices. For example, a home that is $400-500k in the big city might be $250k in that Sacramento suburb and $200k in some small community off one of the Interstates. That pays for a lot of gas.
Also, if you move to a rural area, what happens if things don't work out with the (probably only in the area) company you are working for and you have to move quickly?
He lives within 35 miles of an urban area, so this is moot. Deep rural is a different story. You would have to move and wait that 12+ months for your house to sell, or find a local nontechnical job. But living near an airport gives you an important option. You can literally commute to a job anywhere in the States, particular the expensive urban areas. I know, because I've seen people commute from out of state (Florida, Oregon, and New Jersey) to IT jobs in San Jose, California. It's ugly, but doable. Usually, the person stays in a studio or motel for the week and flies back and forth to their real home over weekends. Only works if you live relatively close to an airport. If you can telecommute, then that option really becomes viable.
Is is amazing how so many techincal people on this forum are afraid of competition. In this forum there have been so many sly reference to hiring programmers based on merit and not on skill. DO YOU GUYS BELIEVE THAT MOST OF THE COMPANIES WHO GET THERE WORK DONE IN INDIA WILL BE THERE IF THEY DID NOT RECEIVE QUALITY ? YOU GUYS ARE JUST DREAMING !!! Almost all the big American corporations get there work done in India. They are demanding customers and get quality and value for money because of which they stay there. If you guys really feel that Indian programmers are not up to the mark then you should have a look at your universities research programs and see how it is dominated by Indians and Chinese !! A lot of people on this forum has correctly observed that outsourcing to India is perhaps not that cheap. I think it is true. I find it pathetic that instead of competing on merit and skill, most of the people in this forum are concenterating more on invoking jingoistic sentiments. There have been tons of posts questioning the skills of an Indian programmer. The post includes a comment about "going to India" for training your replacement. I think it should be clarified what this training is. It is nothing more than a handover. Just telling the new person where the stuff is. The handover is a part of professional etiquete and an american programmer is all welcome not to do that.
What is it with some people and antennas?
I have a cousin who lives in a very nice neighborhood in Minneapolis, and there are a couple of real assholes in his homeowners association. One of his neighboors had a tree in his backyard blow over in a big storm, and they moved their trampoline from the backyard to one side of the house so a crew could get around the other side and cut down the tree. The assholes in the HOA actually bitched that a trampoline was visible from the side of the house (it wasn't even in the front), even though it was a very temporary placement.
Obviously, these people need to get a job, if they have so much time on their hands that all they do is sit around and think up ways to be complete dicks to their neighboors, rather than minding their own damn business/bills/kids etc like normal people.
My parents have lived in Moses Lake for the last 12 years. They're trying to sell their house and get out of there; unfortunately for them the housing market there is not as hot as it is other places. In fact they haven't had any bites in the last couple of months it's been on the market.
You mention water skiing in Moses Lake - However whenever I have visited the lake is full of algae scum. It's a rather stagnant lake. Not anything I'd want to swim in.
And the weather? It gets very cold in the Winter (down around 0 is not unusual) and very hot in the Summer (100 is not unusual this time of the year). And it's a desert landscape without much of anything interesting. There's a park nearby called the Potholes Park (sounds just lovely). Lots of farms around so you can get plenty of pesticide spray wafting your way (one of the reasons my parents want to move - it has become enough of a problem that it's effecting their health). Oh and then there's the Hanford Nuclear Reservation not an hour away - lot's of glow-in-the-dark fun to be had there!
No, Moses Lake is not the beauty spot you make it out to be. I actually find it to be one of the most depressing places I've ever visited - but maybe it's partly because I prefer the green side of the mountains.
the actual cost savings after all the hassle and risk of outsourcing to India has been shown to at best be about 21% .....there's plenty of ways we could get that kind of savings and keep the work here within the country. It was fashionable and hip to outsource to India, and managers have been cooking the numbers ever since to show it was a good thing.
Is it not possible that you have a prejudice against the Indian/Paki service desk rep (pretty much reflected in your post) which was reflected in your conversation with him because of which you got a bad service ?? American reps can be equally bad if u r not polite to them !! American prosperity is because it can do business in all the countries of the world. You can go back to medieveal ages (like britishers did) and force these countries to leave there markets open for america and at the same time do not let any american jobs go there. Is it not this that u want ??
Get the facts buddy. Even if the guy was sitting on the other side of desk and you would have killed him, the American LAW would put you off the streets for a time you don't want to be there!!
Please keep shut. You don't even know what you are talking about!
Many, if not most rural towns have a local institution known as a diner, which for slightly more than the price of a Mocha Grande at Starbucks will give you a drinkable cup of Colombian coffee, with free refills. As a bonus, you will also be served a plate with two eggs, toast, home fries, sausage, and a glass of orange juice, all served up by a friendly waitress named Flo. You will have to get used to the fact that many of the patrons will be wearing designer baseball caps imprinted with the logoes of John Deere, Caterpillar, Peterbilt, and Mack.
The dollar is pegged to oil? Last time I looked oil was priced in dollars but not pegged. Which part of markets don't you understand?
Where do you get your crack? It must be good.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Although it still achieves the same result of lowering the value of a job,
So you'd rather be unemployed, is that it? The value of a job is not your salary. The value of a job is HAVING a job instead of being a parasite on those of us who HAVE jobs.
Rural areas run the gamut, just like neighborhoods in a big city run the gamut. Some are great, some are terrible. Just as you choose a neighborhood to live in in a city, you have to use some choice about where you live in rural areas.
You paint a pretty bleak picture compared to what I've seen living in rural areas of the US for 40 odd years. I'm in a town of 1200 and have better cable modem throughput than a lot of people in cities.
One thing I notice about rural areas, is that what poverty there is is less shoved off to the side than in cities and suburbs. When the town is a half mile square, the other side of the tracks is still just up the block. In some ways, I think that's healthier than in some of the Chicago suburbs I visit where the only minimum wage earners you see are the ones working in fast food joints. The poverty there is miles away, and easy to ignore.
Check out Art & Logic, Inc. They hire programmers from rural USA and put them on monumentally cool projects. The company has thrived during the so-called "outsourcing craze" and is desperately trying to find programmers that live up to their standards.
Disclaimer: I've worked with them for many years, and they do indeed live up to the hype.
This is a very old news. Not sure why making rounds on /. now.
Whatever it is, minimum wage in US is about 5$/hour. That's sort of salary someone in India/China gets per day. This is true at least until wages in India come up to comparable levels, i.e, 2$/hour. Only then we'll see measurable shift from outsourcing to insourcing.
"btw, on this point, most rural industrial waste or similar issues is due to us being the dumping grounds for YOUR city waste. It's gotta go somewhere, and where it's going is right next to the crops we then ship back to you to ingest. Lovely circle."
Bump this AC up a notch or two. On the export of city trash to elsewere? Remember a couple years back that New York trash barge that no one would take? Eventually ended back home. But the AC is correct, and tough economic conditions for states has loosened the restrictions on other states taking city trash.
--
The "are you a script" word for today is [trash] parade.
Whoever marked this as flamebait obviously has not been there. It was harder for my research group to get supplies for a dig in Nebraska than in Senegal.
i wish US companies would do more outsourcing... why you ask? so when that one time i have to call up some TS or CS, i dont have to talk with some hick with a thick sothern accent, atleast with people out of country, you just cant straight up understand them, or their accent makes you laugh... but i just cant stand the strong southern accent...
So uhm, some nerds still like to party you know. Small towns only offer teenager parties in the woods, and you know 99% of those teenagers will not go further in life than assembly lines or mining coal.
And after blue collar towns turn expensive, then what? export human resources to trailer parks? Will Bubbles turn into a hacker? And after that start rehiring bums off the street that were put there by the same companies that laid them off in 2000 in the first place? And when that gets too expensive, come back full circle and hire all of us back again?
I swear, cheap talent should be a contradiction in terms. No matter how you achieved your talent, if you developed it well, you should be rewarded for it. That does not just apply to corporations, but to people who sell their talent for pennies.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
I grew up in rural America, but in 1984 [!] moved to SoCal for business reasons. In 2001 I got a place out in the desert, miles from anything, and for a couple years it was stars and crickets again, like I hadn't seen or heard in years.
Now development is coming my way, the stars are no longer visible, and the rural midwest is starting to sound pretty good, even tho it means I'll have to give up my primary business (no market).
So I know exactly what you're talking about... but I've met city folk who find the dark and the quiet too frightening. (Hey, then stay in the bright and noisy city, and stop moving out to the country in hordes, ruining it for rural folk!)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
In high traffic areas the grass dies if too many people shortcut.
So you get yelled at for crossing lawns as kids by the home owner.
If you are nice you stay on the side walk.
(to really kill grass fast ride bikes across it!)
It is not like we owe our living to them or anything like that....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
As they say, if you don't want to burn, yeah, don't get close to the fire.
For each and every bad point that you blissfully remerkaed there is one that counterbalances them.
Of course people are voting with their feet to the best place to live: urban centers keep growing.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Look, the current Mexican President proposed your Bush to allow free movement of workers between the NAFTA area.
Bush was lukewarm to the idea. The usual suspects (far left, far right) made sure Bush Jr. would not think about it.
If the US is not part of any extended labour markets it is because the populace and its politicians don't want to.
In Europe, South America, South East Asia people recognize that free movement of labour may be inevitable and are facilitating it.
In the meantime people in the US whine about economic reality.
With the US disowning international treaties (the latest was taxing Canadian lumber against NAFTA rules, and against an international panel of judges for bunnies sakes!) you will be very idiotic as a nation to go into a commercial treaty of any kind knowing that at the end the other part does not feel any compulsion to abide by any treaty if it "harms US jobs" as somebody we all know famously put it.
You think globalisation is harming you? You are right, but it is mostly a problem of your own making because you don't want to embrace it.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That you make illegal to seel US products in foreing countries.
Stereotypical egoistical USian: wants to have his cake and eat it.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
But a real one, not the joke NAFTA is where as soon as Mexico's President suggests people should work wherever they want in the NAFTA area all USians go bananas.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I live in a great town of just over 8000000 people. It is very different from when I lived in the Podunk, Nowhereville are, but I wouldn't trade it for the world. I work as a software engineer for a Fortune 100 company that has a great work environment. I just bought a 400 sq ft flat four months ago for $396k. So lets see...
1) work in the IT world (check)
2) Have a great place in a vibrant area (check)
3) have 3MB DSL to my house (check)
4) 20 minute commute to work...walking (check)
5) Classical music concerts every day (check)
6) Uncountable book stores. (check)
7) Several big parks to unwind and relax. (check).
8) Amazing selection of any goods imaginable. (check)
9) Meeting people from all around the worl. (check)
10) Cinemas showing movies from all around the world. (check).
11) Art galleries with blockbuster exhibitions regularly. (check).
12) Easy access to the rest of the worl.(check)
13) Tolerable levels of criminality (hint, no guns allowed). (check).
Yup...I love it here. Outsource from these regions will be a real tragedy.
Got any questions about big cities and IT works? Feel free to ask.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I think one day somebody will give you a trophy or a medal.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I am so fucking sick and tired of USians whinning about this.
At the beginning it was funny, but now it is tiresome and irritating and even dangerous.
Companies have no reason to be patriotic dumbass (sorry, I need to convey all my feelings). The only patriotic companies I can think off where the ones in the former Soviet Union and its satellites. Look where they ended: improductive, uselese piles of junk that where not work the value of the scrap metal they were built in.
The only other example of "patriotic" industry I can think off is the arms industry, which for obvious reasons is contrained to what they can and can't do. And what happens with these? They entirely depend in goverment contracts (i.e. subsidies by another name). The situation is so bad that the goverment has to organize spurious wars once in a while in order to increase the necessary output of those industries and keep them running. Or declare that the country needs intercontinental misiles to combat a threat whose weapons are sharp cutters and fertilizer bombs, these keep people in the arms industry in "gainful" employment (look at your country's military budget and tell me I am derided).
You want that those same companies that have exploited so well one side of the market (foreing costumers) stop exploiting the other (foreign labour).
Well, if you are prepared to pay for it good luck pal, but I hope you are consistent and also demand with the same energy that those unpatriotic companies stop selling goods in foreign countries and are forced to suply the blessings of their goods and services only to the US citizenry.
Markets are like the old conception of the atom: indivisible. You want the customers? Fine, but alternative labour markets come attached in the package.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
What would you say to a plumber that claims that to fix your toilet is his job?
Even if he is the most expensive game in town.
And the less responsible and lacks the most skills.
I know, you would say "stuff it mate, you are not up to the task".
A job is not yours. Specially if you are too expensive, too incompetent or both.
Does that make you fell bad, lonely and unloved? Tough.
Grow up people, that is part of living in a free society, you take responsibility for yourself and stop dreaming things that you wished for but are nothing but pipe dreams.
When you sign an employment contract you are agreeing to provide a service: your labour. To claim you own that contract is such an stupid idea that I don't see how it took hold of people minds at all.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
People talking about "their job" in that context are implying that somehow they are the best ones to hold it (mostly on fuzzy reasoning like patriotism and what have you).
It is foolish to say this job is mine when in your employment contract there are at lest two interested parts involved.
To say "I have a job" is a figure of speech that when confronted with the cold facts of the law probes to be innacurate.
People don't have jobs, they don't own them. What they have is an agreement to exchanges money for their services which very often ca be terminated at short notice, and for reasons strange to the worker.
That is the work we live.
People in Socialist societes could genuinely claim that they owned a job. Once you got it it was pretty much impossible you could lose it. I frankly don't want to own a job in such socieities or in similar conditions, but many free people in mature Western democracies seem to want just that.
Obviously History is not being tought properly in some places.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I think that you'll find the numbers of KKK types hanging around in rural areas to be less than you think. Sure, there are some small towns with issues, but they're fairly rare. It's going to take some time for you to be accepted, but then, that's to be expected when you are around people to can name every single person in their graduating class, and often every person in the school.
As for violence, I'll counter with the point that cities, which are democrat strongholds, have far higher violent crime rates than mostly republican small towns.
all those Republicans who mysteriously disappeared. Or, maybe a few staunch 'Ditto-heads' who were found swinging from a tree?
Where's the Democrats & NPR listeners hanging from trees?
As for history, I'd like to point out that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, and the KKK were mostly Democrats(IE the non-Lincoln party).
I don't read AC A human right
Outsourcing is another and newer angle on "voodoo economics". They save money on production, but keep the revenue for themselves rather than pass it fully on in lower prices. In economic theory, outsourcing would result in no net loss to the US because prices would drop proportionally to the loss in wages. In economic reality, outsourcing is making ceo's and the (for lack of a better term) "wealthy elites" richer because they take the margins provided by outsourcing for themselves rather than passing it on in the price of their products. As such this is nothing more than supply side economics, something which already failed in the reagan era, and which the majority of what many snubbingly call 'blue collar' america recognizes through all the BS. In the mean time, people here in my international finance courses put on a presentation which basically tells me they're not considering the reality side of the equation, and thus will be another generation (with me exempt) to continue the trend of giving away US jobs and selling out our standard of living.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Just to make it clear, this sort of stuff is why many libertarions support the elimination of business and payroll taxes and going with a sales tax. That way you're not penalized for producing the product in the USA, as about a third of the cost of employing a low wage worker in the states is taxes. This is true until you get quite high in the pay grade.
I don't read AC A human right
Do you actually think that Saddam's actions played no part in America's decision? Are you so set up in your beliefs that you have to create a strawman that America only went to war because of WMDs?
Of course this is USA centric right?
;-(
when they say "companies" they are only refering to companies "within" the Northern American continent.
I think it's fair to say that outside of Northern America, comapanies as it were are hardly likely to "outsource" to service providers in "Small Town USA" as apposed to the likes of India, Indonesia, Ireland, Wales, China, et al.
I could be horribly wrong, but I'd say that on average the level of education of Indian's working in India based call centers for example would be higher than that of rural USA - I hope I'm wrong for the USA's sake but I suspect I'm not ( time to do the home work I guess Dez ).
But most Indian's know where other countries are on the map for example, where as most Americans, rural USA that is, don't know many countries outside of the USA, so I'd rather not send my follow the sun support to rural USA if the local's are not able to even picture in their mind where my Australian customers are on the map
Dez
--- Dez Blanchfield http://WebSearch.COM.AU "Will work for bandwidth.."
He was getting paid for doing a job. If it wasn't his job, then why was he getting paid for doing it?Hmmmm, "exchanges money for services", that certainly sounds like a job.
But you say they don't have a job.
But they do have a contract to perform services in exchange for money (but that isn't a "job").
Right.Really?So, in your opinion, it isn't about being paid to do work
So, if you're the boss's son-in-law, then you have a job because the boss isn't going to fire you (unless you get divorced).
But if you were the guy doing the same job for the same money before the guy who married his daughter moved in, then you didn't have a job.
So what differentiates whether it is "my job" or not is
It isn't "my job" unless I'm doing the boss's daughter in a religiously acceptable manner.
You might really want to re-examine the basis of your hypothesis.Nor, it seems, "logic".
Do you actually think that Saddam's actions played no part in America's decision?
It was about WMD's, period. Arguing that we should invade Iraq because Saddam was an evil dictator would have been a very hard sell, even post 9/11. That's why Bush said that Saddam was an immediate threat because of WMD's, and we had no choice but to take him out, right now. No amount of spinning from the Administration or Fox News that this was a war "to protect our freedom" or to "free the Iraqi's" does anything to change that fact.
Are you so set up in your beliefs that you have to create a strawman that America only went to war because of WMDs?
Straw man:As a rhetorical term, "straw man" describes a point of view that was created in order to be easily defeated in argument; the creator of a "straw man" argument does not accurately reflect the best arguments of his or her opponents, but instead sidesteps or mischaracterizes them so as to make the opposing view appear weak or ridiculous.
It's no straw man to call a turkey a turkey, and WMD's was the justification for invading Iraq, end of story. Deal with it.
If you want to see where IT is heading then take a look at manufacturing. When was the last time you picked up a pair of sneakers that were made in the USA? How about a shirt or a childrens toy? I liked one persons comment about America becoming a services country. It's a true statement because we don't really manufacture a lot of what we use. Even American companies often build their products in other nations. Chrysler PT Cruisers are built in Mexico for instance. The only reason this hasn't happened as much in the automobile industry is because of unionization and tarrifs. Is it wrong to buy a Honda when its made in the USA at a Honda plant? The only industry I think I could confidently say is outsourcing proof is defense. That's is only because we spend more money on our military than just about any other nation on the planet. The fact is, that outsourcing will continue but that eventually the market will stabilize. And it's pretty true that the only people that really profit from outsourcing are the rich. After all, Nikes are still $50, that didn't change when they went over to cheap labor and $25 an item profits. It's funny to think that we live in a large country with billions of acres of undeveloped land, yet one of the highest costs of living we endure is housing costs. Hopefully as our work habits change and working remotely becomes more mainstream it will be possible to live in Wyoming where land can be had for a song and still make a good living. People go to cities for the jobs, but what happens when the jobs become de-centralized?
I live in a suburb of Rochester, NY, home of Kodak, Xerox, Bausch & Lomb, Wegmans. My 3 bd. 1600 sq. ft. house cost me $86k (about 115% of annual salary). I have all the tech services available to a big city home (DSL, Digital Cable, Voice over Cable, etc.). Salaries are not small, except when compared to big cities. I performed an outsourcing to small town USA project for a company in NYC. Have to visit for an all-day onsite meeting? No problem, fly r/t on JetBlue for $110, leave at 6am and return home at 8pm. Other days, need to go to Boston? No problem, just a 6 hour drive. On the weekend, want to see the sights in Toronto? No problem, the ferry leaves from the Port of Rochester daily. However, with 7 universities and plenty of culture in town (George Eastman, Strong Museum) there is plenty of reason to stick around. Don't forget it was recently named the top minor-league sports market in the country (players almost as good for 1/4 the cost of tickets and hockey, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, soccer to choose from) and is one of the top golf markets around (30+ courses, annual LPGA and Nationwide tourney, occasional men's major and Ryder host at Oak Hill)