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Senate Passes Patriot Act Renewal
IAmTheDave writes "The Senate has passed a renewal of the Patriot act, 89-10, after two extensions caused by months of negotiations. The only thing standing in the way of a full renewal is a House vote, expected to pass next week. The renewal comes with some privacy protections attached, however, some worry they are only cosmetic. Some lawmakers who voted for the package acknowledged deep reservations about the power it would grant to any president. "Our support for the Patriot Act does not mean a blank check for the president," said Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada, who voted to pass the bill package. Certain lawmakers supported passing the bill even though they were still wary about it - Arlen Specter urged his colleagues to pass it even as he promised to introduce a new measure and hold hearings on how to fix it. Terrorism aside, the bill also includes new legislation that has almost nothing to do with terrorism, like one measure, which would make it harder for illicit labs to obtain ingredients for methamphetamine by requiring pharmacies to sell nonprescription cold medicines only from behind the counter. I know that people like Arlen Specter promise further hearings - but why pass what you know is flawed?"
Think of it as the beta release.
Ha! Gotcha. I meant you, over there burning that DVD torrent you've been downloading for 6 hours. And YOU, you SOB. Stop moving those CD's to your Ipod, thief. Oh, and not to mention YOU, who told you that it was fine to tamper with that TiVo? You say you learned to do it at the Library? NO, NOT THE LIBRARY!!!
All of the crap when purchasing certain cold meds makes me want to start a methlab just out of spite.
I like how the patriot act gets renewed virtually without any coverage, cause Dick Cheney accidently shooting some guy is a much better story than covering an act that restricts our civil liberties. This isn't a troll, i'm just pissed off.
I'm no political science student, but I can assume that it's because of the political consequences that would come with not voting for passing the act - could you imagine how easy it would make life for the campaign manager for a candidate running for office against one of the people who voted against it?
"[Insert Senator Name] hurt American security by not voting for the absolutely vital PATRIOT Act"
Or some nonsense like that.
Not that it makes it right.
In soviet russia, You ask not what country do for you, but what you do for country!
Oh wait...
The USA: Just another corrupt government controlled police state.
To bad that sentence is not moddable as "FUNNY".
-Digital-Madman
A bullet sounds the same in every language. So stick a fucking sock in it...
This is already the case in Australia, although its a good idea a lot of pharmacists love to treat you like a criminal when you go in with a head cold to buy a pack of cold and flue tablets. Last year one of them refused to hand my drivers license back and I had to go to collect it from the police station after a few questions, turns out another guy with a name similar to mine had bought a few packets recently from that same chemist. All I wanted was bloody cold and flue tabs!!!!
You know what this means? This is muuch worse than I originally thought. At first I thought the lawmakers were just incompetent last time for not reading the bill, but now I know that the majority of them are downright fucking evil for renewing it.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
It must be nice to live in a Utopia where all the laws passed are fair and just, and that everyone in the nation agrees with them 100%. Let me know when you find such a place. Our flawed Republic is not it--only better than all the other alternatives.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
Haven't other nations laid claim to most of it?
Seriously, though, if you want a free country at this point, you'd be better ready to carve it out of a non-free one. There is no place to run to, and even if there were, running to it would only delay the fight. Take a stand NOW.
...the Senate rules you!
I doubt 10% of Americans understand the Constitution in any depth. This is why our elected officials can take away our freedoms and usurp power.
"Our support for the Patriot Act does not mean a blank check for our most illustrious and divine George Caesar (may he live forever!)," said Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada, who voted to pass the bill package.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Anyone wana help me take over an island nation and turn it into a technocracy.
I need another play ground of freedom to play in, mines been slowly turned into a landfill while I was busy.
We could probly make good money like sealand with a co-location factility with out "entanglements".
I SHALL RAIN DOWN MISSILES-IN-A-BUN ON YOUR PITIFUL CITY'S!
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
There are 10 true patriots out there.
ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
Didn't Ben Franklin say something like "He who wouldn't trade a few silly liberties for the security of thier nation isn't a good Christian." Or something like that?
Not trolling, just pissed!
Sadly, it's more like 0.1% (although most citizens seem to be pretty familiar with the Simpsons).
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Harry Reid says one thing to the public while he does the opposite.
Harry Reid wanted to pass the Patriot Act. Everything that he says should be considered pandering bullshit.
He's clearly not capable of representing people, if he speaks one way publically and votes the other way.
Harry supporst the Patriot Act. Dont forget it.
Under the concept of the 'Unitary Executive' which supreme court member ailito believes in, the point is moot. Let us all march in lock step with our leaders!
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Last I heard there's some international treaty that governs Antartica that keeps most matters out of the hands of governments.
You can read up on it
oh yeah, since someone's going to do it, the obligatory Karma Whore
...they will do whatever they want anyway.
This is what I honestly think, don't just down-mod me because you don't agree
You is new to these here parts, ain't ya?
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
TV Watches You!
Damn them all. How 'bout this shit!
Right now, the problem is not that the government is unable to intervene in the case of terrorists, but that the executive branch does not recognize that the legislature tells IT what it can and cannot do. The judicial system then refines it until it is a nicely polished, consistent set of laws. With the government's recent NSA wiretapping controversies, is it really a good idea to modify the executive branch's rights before establishing firmly what they are right now?
Your sig: your use of the plural "definitions" implies the validity of "moral relativism".
XML causes global warming.
We're getting dangerously close to the "Four legs good, two legs better" stage...
If we get in there now, we can make it a free country, and when China and the US cause enough global warming, it'll be prime oceanfront tropical property :D
Feingold reads constitution on Senate floor
t itution_on_Senate_floor_0301.html
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Feingold_reads_cons
BS. The US government showed incompetence, from the top on down. How easy everyone forgets the information that was available to the government before 9/11:
There were clear signs that Osama Bin Laden was planning an attack in the US, including a presidential briefing.
The above briefing discusses the failed "millenium plot" which was successfully prevented, which was linked to Bin Laden, and which showed the terrorist's interest in airplanes.
The FBI office in Phoenix, AZ received a memo regarding Bin Laden supporters taking flying lessons.
A month later, the FBI actually arrested Moussaoui in Minnesota, but didn't find it necessary to search his computer.
All of this was accomplished without the PATRIOT Act, and nothing in the PATRIOT Act would have made a difference if the same mistakes were made.
Also, the attacks in Madrid and London happened while the Patriot Act was in full force (and the illegal wiretapping was already going on). How come they were not prevented?
This is not a crime-enforcing bill, it is a counter-terrorism bill.
Keep lying to yourself, hopefully one day you will wake up...
I don't see the new provision about cold medicines. By the way, you can read the bill here--check version 5, as it is what the senate passed March 2.
The sig is about the agenda of (most) moral relativists: to allow themselves the freedom to do what they want without having to defend it or feel guilty about it. They can't do that when everyone else believes in a solid set of morals, so they want to make morals irrelevant.
I'll believe this whenever pigs walk...I mean fly.. Did I say walk? Crap.
The Patriot Act provides the same tools for counter-terrorism officials that anti-narcotics officials have been using for years.
Anti-narcotics officials have been able to conduct secret reconnaissance of what books I've been reading?
Perhaps some of you don't remember 9/11.
No, considering how many times the TV news has delighted in replaying those horrific images, I doubt anyone could possibly forget.
This is not a crime-enforcing bill, it is a counter-terrorism bill.
Look, Stargate SG-1 isn't a good show by any stretch of the imagination (except for that hottie Capt. Carter), but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it terrorism.
Sure, I may be inconvenienced by the Patriot Act, but nothing is more inconvenient than getting blown up on your way to work, like what tragically happened just this last summer.
You were blown up on your way to work this summer?
I mean, one of the government's few purposes is to keep the people safe. The US government failed to do that on 9/11.
Boy, you got that right. The one piece of advice that the Clinton adminstration gave the incoming Bush adminstration was to watch out for bin Laden. The government doesn't need new tools; they just need to learn how to use the tools they already have.
(This is what I honestly think, don't just down-mod me because you don't agree.)
I'm glad that you assured us that you honestly believe this otherwise I would have thought you were trolling. As for modding you down because someone disagrees with you, that's not necessary. Your arguements are so weak, they deserve to be modded down on their own merits, independent of the political opinions of the moderators.
GMD
watch this
They had intelligence on some of the people on those planes, right? What went wrong was something else. Bad luck, bad administration, I don't know what it was, but it seems like the Patriot act is more of a distraction than anything else, and an almost hypocritical one at that- we tell our young adults to go die for our ideals, and then are willing to throw them away at home to marginally improve our own safety. In any case, Katrina shows how woefully ill prepared our government is for a disaster they know about days in advance. Not to mention the fact that from what I can tell from his response to criticism about these warrentless wiretaps, my President seems to claim he can do what ever he wants to since we are in a state of war, so I don't see why we he thinks we need the Patriot Act. As a bonus, I would guess I'm made safer by wearing my seatbelt than by the patriot act anyway- ~ 40,000 people die in auto accidents every year. But then, that's different, because I have a much better illusion of control when I drive than when a couple dozen nut jobs decide to crash planes into a building.
How would the votes be different if they changed the name to something less suggestive than the PATRIOT act? Are the people who use this tactic, or the ones too afraid to stand up to it more pathetic?
If you succeeded, you'd be bombed out of existence within the week.
More likely though, you'd wind up like Sealand. Have you heard any news about HavenCo in the last few years? I haven't. The website claims they're fully operational, but the update mark is from 2003.
Perhaps some of you don't remember 9/11
Oh, yeah, that was so long ago...
But not as long ago as the famous Ben Franklin quote
Unfortunately, food supplies and entertainment resources aren't being threatened. So the people will continue to boil like the slowly boiling frog.
Of course, it appears that reading the Consitution did not even phase 89 members of the senate. Why are these people not being impeached for breaking their oath to protect the Constitution of the United States?
Come on, America! Wake UP!
I posted this in full, before, but this time I'll just give you all the link. It is worth reading:
Europe [The 72d and 73d Years of These States] by Walt Whitman
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
The Patriot Act provides the same tools for counter-terrorism officials that anti-narcotics officials have been using for years.
And we all know how successful the War on Drugs has been...
Oh! Oh! I know! I know!... because Spain and England aren't subject to US Legislation?!?!
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
Check out the senate roll call [www.senate.gov] for the vote breakdown. Here's the only 10 senators with enough guts to stand up for america's civil liberties: Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Byrd (D-WV) Feingold (D-WI) Harkin (D-IA) Jeffords (I-VT) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Murray (D-WA) Wyden (D-OR) I realize some other senators were trying to compromise and we don't live in a perfect society and blah blah blah. But this was just too important of a vote to play political games. If you're against the Patriot Act, these 10 people are the only incumbents who deserve your vote this November!
How does elimination of due process, massive expansion of executive power, warrantless searches, and wiretapping of political movements do anything to prevent another 9/11? Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died to give us and protect these freedoms, why should we be willing to give them up because a couple thousand innocent people were murdered? I guess we're different in that I'd rather see my daily risk of death increase by 0.00000001% than give up half of the freedoms guaranteed to me by the bill of rights and live as a prisoner of a police state.
Did you read the original post? It used these attacks as an excuse for the need of the PATRIOT Act. And as far as the British are concerned, they got their version in November of 2004. Unfortunately it didn't help them...
Which leads me to wonder; where is the disrepancy between what the people want and what the politicians do, the largest; Autharitan China or Democrazied West? Personally, I think the answer is really, really scary.
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
How did you determine that that is indeed the goal of most moral relativists? Does your data include only those that consider themselves moral relativists or those that you consider moral relativists? The word "agenda" makes me wonder.
XML causes global warming.
information gathers you!
Voting for a President who's the "lesser of two evils." I heard that line a lot in the last election. Just because something is not as bad as something else doesn't mean it's good. The same applies here. If even the legislators who are voting for this measure to pass admit it isn't all that great...why are they passing it?
American politics are screwed.
What good does civil forfeiture do to someone sneaking into the country to fly a plane into a skyscraper?
If the anti-drug laws are so good and effective, then why not use them against "terrorists"?
Michael Moore's portrayal of how patriot act v1 went down is starting to stink like the excrement it was. Wake up.
Oh no! You're on to us!
Well, I wasn't going to shoot you because that would just be a Dick(sic) thing to do to another human, but now you know too much, I don't really have a choice.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
Even in Antartica, you can't escape the US government. From the wikipedia page:
The law of the United States, including certain criminal offenses by or against U.S. nationals, such as murder, may apply to areas not under jurisdiction of other countries. To this end, the United States now stations special deputy U. S. Marshals in Antarctica to provide a law enforcement presence.
A self-sufficient space-station is the only hope (orbiting another planet, of course).
------ ACLU press release available here
I think most people going hysterical actually have not read up on what the Patriot Act does in a SERIOUS and ACADEMIC way. Before passing judgement, I recommend you do.
This site has a tremendous amount of quality, specific information. And for those too lazy to read, there's some interesting video at c-span at this link: rtsp://cspanrm.fplive.net/cspan/project/ter/ter071 805_discourse.rm Go about 49 minutes in and listen to Stuart Taylor, a fellow at the Brookings Institute (yes, a left of center policy think tank).
Once you start reading with an open mind, I think that most people will find that extending the Patriot Act provisions is quite a good idea, and that maybe this is why it passed in the Senate 89-10.
It was passed by an overwhelming majority because an overwhelming majority in both parties agree wholeheartedly with pushing the US further towards a fascist state ... and they don't have far to go.
... and those people aren't ordinary workers.
The Democrats are absolutely pathetic. They handed the 2000 election to the Republicans on a silver platter. They rolled over and played dead in the last elections. They made a point of pretending that there was NO opposition to the wars in the middle east. They pushed strong anti-war candidates and slotted in a pro-war candidates. They attacked Bush from the right in arguing that he wasn't doing enough to protect the world from terrorism, win the war in Iraq, etc, etc.
The problem is that the Democrats are a party that defends big business interests - just like the Republicans, only a litle less competent. This is why less than 50% of Americans vote - they realise that it doesn't matter who you vote for, the same people keep winning
Americans should take a good look at their 2-party system, and ponder what democracy is supposed to be about, and consider the difference between the two. It's a huge gap, and it's increasing at an alarming rate. Thank God the US hasn't been so successful at exporting their brand of democracy to the rest of the world.
"but why pass what you know is flawed?"
It's kind of like that book report you have due tomorrow. You know that it can be better, should you wait to turn it in until it's as good as it can possibly be, then turn it in, or should you turn in what you have now? They must have the renewal passed before the old one expires.
How many Amendments to the Consitution have not been ignored in the last 6 years?
Name three things that this Administration has done that didn't do exactly opposite of what they were called!
For extra credit: Which hurts more - being shot in the face by Cheney, knowing that you've just been sold down the river, McCarthy-style...or that in some windowless cube farm, someone is being paid by your taxes to determine if your Slash-o-dot post is a threat to this country?
For the win: What is the name of my Investigating Agent?
Answer quick, they're at the door - I want to surprise them.
Rest assured, mod points are not used because we do not agree. Mod points are used to say "You have committed a troll!"
We have great ideas on how to prevent such things from happening next time. It's called storm the big white buildings in our capitol and lynch the bastards who caused it. Problem solved, and here's your tax money back.
can we have a law that goes a little over board in terms of protecting people's rights. like a law saying that if a politician ever utters the phrase "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you don't have to worry about X", then that politician can sentenced to death, treated as an enemy combatant, sent off to a concentration camp.
Some nerds have been on WOW all night and haven't heard this. Thankfully, they're smart and will catch on quick - we'll probably only have to dupe this story once.
Good Lord, an actual reference to "Animal Farm". I can't count how many contestants have been stumped by "Animal Farm" questions on jeopardy.
All I can say is:
Bu-- mother--- gwa-- the-- fu-- jes-- ghaaaa! What the fuck is wrong with our elected officials... I think perhaps I need to start complaining more...
They've all been dead for a 100 years!
I'm rather tired of people going nuts over the Patriot Act when their only source for information is the Daily Show with John Stewart. To have an informed opinion, do at least some of the following:
(1) Read the bill
(2) Read analysis by law PROFESSORS (not tv-journalists)
(3) Read analysis by lawyers nationally regarded as experts.
I bet 98% of people posting here can't name two provisions in the Patriot Act.
That quote is the most flogged and abused line of speech on Slashdot. Do you think that Franklin wouldn't have agreed to temporary wartime restrictions on liberties in pursuit of the greater good (that being victory)? Do you think FDR was a tyrant for censoring newspapers, radio, and postal mail in WW II? How about severly limiting the right to purchase everything from meat to tires? How about going as far as drafting his opponents in the press into the Army? Did you mean THAT kind of trading liberty for security? How about Lincoln suspending Habeus Corpus? That was a minor inconvienience, eh?
We keep hearing about how we're being oppressed, how our liberties have been taken away, how Bush is an iron-fisted tyrant.
And yet, here you are, criticizing him on Slashdot. And fancy that, you're not in prison. And look at the newspapers and tv....here's the NY Times ripping W a new one, and look, over there at Slate, they're calling him a moron and a crook.
Hmmm. And no one is being dragged off to jail for criticizing the Dreaded Tyrant Dubya. In previous wars, once the shooting started, calling the Prez a War Criminal was good for a quick trip to the pokey, after being a guest of J. Edgar Hoovers interogations. Opposing the War? Eugene Debs went to prison for encouraging troops not to go to Europe. Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore are now feted as heroes in various media for doing the same thing.
In short, we haven't traded much freedom, and we are astonishingly unshackled compared to previous wars.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
And why should the Patriot Act have preveted these attacks in foreign countries?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Because he thinks its the right thing to do, or the right thing to do to get more political power, and he doesn't want to lose his left-wing base, so he's trying to appease them.
Call me cynical, but unfortunately, I'm probably right. Not that I have a problem with the act, but society in general these days does not seem capable of saying what they mean, let alone politicians.
Patriot Act Official Vote listing
Pindicks everyone of them. Perhaps if there were some technologists, scientists, etc., in the Senate and the House we'd get a more representative body for the People? Stop voting Democrat and Republican. Vote Libertarian, Independent or whatever party that doesn't continue this glorious burden.
welcome our old Overlords
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
They claimed the war was over several months ago... Hehehe :)
I like muppets.
Think of it as the beta release.
I thought that was president Bush junior? You see if Bush the elder was the Alpha release that would make brother Jeb the Stable production release when he gains the White House...
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Everyone here is moaning and groaning about our elected officials and how corrupt they have all become. Out of 100 senators, only 10 had the balls to stand up to this piece of filth and vote no.
I have many other friends who say there is no longer any choice. Democrats or Republicans -- it's all the same thing, they are corrupt and represent their own self-interests, or the interests of corporations or those organizations that can afford to put politcians in their pockets.
But there is another choice. The 2nd amendment allows the American people to throw out their government and replace it with one that works. That's what the right to bear arms is about -- it's about keeping the government from getting so powerful that they take the guns away, because only at the point of a gun can you establish a new government.
The whole point of maintaining a militia is to keep the government honest. When the government is corrupt, WE THE PEOPLE are allowed to overthrow it.
Remember that the President is supposed to protect us from threats foreign and domestic -- that includes protection from the corrupt government itself. When the government isn't of the people, by the people and for the people, it is time the government was replaced with one that is.
If the president has failed in his duties to uphold the Constitution, then he too, must be replaced.
It is time the American people rose up and took back what is theirs.
WE THE PEOPLE, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility.
It is time WE THE PEOPLE joined together and tell King George that we will not be dictated to any more. Shall we lay supine while essential rights and liberties are forever pilfered? No! Give me liberty or give me death!
It is time to take back the country from the hands of criminals.
It is time for the second American Revolution.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Indeed. I'm beginning to think that if Al Quaida didn't exist, the Bush administration would need to invent it.
Sure I do. Have a got at these features, taken from http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/faci
Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Rampant sexism.
A controlled mass media.
Obsession with national security.
Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Power of corporations protected.
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Obsession with crime and punishment.
Rampant cronyism and corruption
Fraudulent elections.
Sounds like America to me.
Oh bullshit! I'm not hysterical. I'm just pointing out that your country is fucked up. Deal with it without namecalling.
I think this might apply to you before me. As for standing next to fascists, I tried to when Emperor Dubya came to Canberra, but the fucking police wouldn't let me get anywhere near him. Next time
...the end of Western democracy, that is. One small step at a time, it slips away. Sure, this particular step is only happening in the USA, but the rest of Western World is bound to follow... Extensions like this tend become permanent laws, and then more laws are built on them, so you no longer can just not renew them or a host of other laws become pointless as well.
Protect your country by giving up the civil liberties that the US stood for, once upon a time. Uh. Do you realize that the hypocrisis of the PATRIOT act is one of the reasons why US politics are now so despised in the world, when they were used to be a role model for a free society?
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
"Perhaps some of you don't remember 9/11. But don't you remember the March 11th train bombing in Madrid or the attacks just this last summer in London?" Perhaps you don't remember the Reichstag Fire Act and the Enabling Act.
Try South Africa.
In terms of Personal Liberties the individual seems to have a lot more freedom there.
"I'm a snake if we disagree"-Jethro Tull, Bungle in the Jungle
Meanwhile, in reality, I'd say that Cheney going hunting in a mixed gender group shows that he's not quite the insanely conservative progress-hater that he often comes off as when he speaks in his official capacities.
In the immortal words of Darth Vader....
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Math is math. Regular expression is regular expression. The tools are there. The future is now.
The sad thing is that you, me, and the entire Republican party seem to understand this, but the Democratic party just can't seem to get a grip on it. Whatever your political beliefs are, isn't some healthy political competition a good thing? Someone has to help those clowns get their act together before America degenerates into a one-party-system despotism.
hate mail to my Senators.
I don't think they'd care.
They've already got "your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle."
"I'm a snake if we disagree"-Jethro Tull, Bungle in the Jungle
I think a lot of us realize this. I just hope that people can see past our politics and realize that a lot of us don't want this any more than you would. I lived outside of the US for a long time and I've seen what happens. People hate American politics and that in turn rubs off and gets generalized to all Americans. But please try and keep in mind that there are a lot of people here that do not agree. Don't hate us just because we're American. We're trying.
I would think that as a member of a school board, SHOUTING is not the best way to get across an idea.
As to the rest, you state absolutes like "the act does not hurt anybody but the bad guys", or democracts lie, yet there is nothing absolute in life other then death. Democrates lie? Please. They all lie. It is how bad the lie, or what harm comes from the lie that matters. Again...they.all.lie. That is the first rule ofa politician. Try it some time ata school board meeting. Tell the full truth and see how long you last. A former president lies about sex, a current president lied about reasons to start a war, wire-tapping, awareness of impending disaster and more. When lies cause suffering to many, those are the ones to truly question.
While your district may have improved, many more across the country have not. WHy is it that the state of Mass. has recently considered not accepting money from the Feds? Because the NCLB program is not as good as thier own state initiative. See, no absolutes here. Some things are good, some things are bad. However, a closed mind is the worst for it blinds the eyes from seeing the whole picture out there in life.
I could say more, but just so you know, I will vote democratic (D) this year and I will have flet like I did something good for our country. If an attack occurs tomorrow, I will vote (D). If one occurs two years from now I will vote (D) until such point as I feel the demcratic party has failed this country. Then I will find the next party that believes that "We The People" actually means something and takes less lip service to it. Please remember the shouting part next time an angry mom is screaming at you at a board meeting. Good day
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
With all those US friends, and the contact to the local part of US politics, I was always the one who defended the USA in discussions on society and politics here around. But it gets harder and harder to do so. (Well, US politics cannot be defended any more; they are outrageous in their contempt for elementary human rights.)
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
Thinking of that, why isn't there a single republican in that list? You would think that a party that is supposedly about small government and staying out of people's affairs would have at least a few members opposed to the PATRIOT act. Doesn't the republican party contain ANY classical consevatives anymore? Is it really all neo-conservatives (AKA Fascists, in the Mussolini sense of the word)?
But you probably underestimate the interest in the PATRIOT act. For example, it is well covered in all major German newspaper; in content, the way the granted powers are used by US government agencies, and the security-related achievements that those reductions in civil liberties have. In other words, it's well publicized that you got a bad bargain.
After all, our government wants to follow your lead and reduce our civil liberties, too (though not as much as yours did) -- and the US situation gives ammunition to counter such proposals. So there is quite some interest in the PATRIOT act and other new laws (Healthy Forest Act etc.) abroad.
But then, you are also right that I had often to discover that interested Europeans know more about current US politics than some Americans. And they surely know more about the US than the typical American knows about Europe. (I lived for several months in the US, and that's my personal judgement.) Sad, it is.
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
Talk about paranoia.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
Yes, extremely naive. Just as naive as the fundamental concept of democracy: the notion we can live together in a just and free society. Terribly naive. What were we thinking?
Join Tor today!
there are only 10 who aren't blinded by fear to the lessons of history.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
You probably voted for one of the halves of the ruling demopublican party, and I doubt you contacted anyone to complain.
BOHICA.
Um, no one is every going to look for people that checked out Winnie the pooh; its books say on islam that tend to attract attention. People have a right to be informed and to make their own decisions and you shouldn't come under suspesion just because you read a book the majority doesn't like. Popular speech doesn't need to be protected, its the unpopular speech that does.
It's attitudes like that which terrify me for the future of society. Two world wars and other more local ones were fought with many millions killed from many countries and the one saving grace, that many of us are immensely proud of and justifies that many deaths, is that these people fought and died to protect our rights and way of life.
Now 3000 people are killed on American soil and everyone is running scared saying "Here take my rights away! What do I care if the government monitors me, I'm not doing anything wrong. They can do anything they want and take away any freedoms that I'm not really using regularly; just please don't let any more people die."
I've never seen such a bunch of self-centered scared wimps. It's a disgrace and disrespectful to those who died in the past to protect these rights and freedoms. The American Founding Fathers would have a fit. Ben Franklin too would probably just hang his head in shame:
Republicans are not the only practitioners of ironic naming. We should recognise the democrat word hoard: pro-choice, Social Security, Tax Cuts for the Rich, Public Education.
an ill wind that blows no good
Just call 9/11 a gasoline tax. If you want to stop terrorist acts at home, it's real simple. Stop playing the global bully.
The Terriost want to distroy America and they are letting us do the work with laws like this. How are we suppose to be and example to other nations when we cant get freadom right at home.
I'm getting sick of the far left running around like a bunch of chicken littles. No, the sky isn't falling. No, President Bush is not simultaneously the dummest man on the face of the planet and yet so intelligent to manage a vast conspiracy involving all three branches of government, all four branched of the military. No, Dick Cheney is not Satan.
Ok fine. I just want you to imagine a president Hillary Rothem Clinton with the Patriot Act, Wire Tapping, "torture" directives, and seizure abilities that are now afforded to president Bush. Doesn't look so good to you now does it? The point is NOT what is going on now, the point is the slippery slope of eroding rights that will eventually lead to an imperial presidency. I point out to you that even conservatives are taken aback at some of the stuff going on in the Bush Presidency. Notably Bob Barr and George Will who recently called Bush's powers "Monarchachal."
I think this is an example of a social "power law" problem. That's when only a few people are doing the most damage, meth labs are an example, so are other major illicit drug producers, and its the same thing with piracy. You have a few dedicated pirates or groups of pirates supplying everyone with files, DRM and broad lawsuits don't curb the problem because the large amount of people being affected by those aren't causing near the damage as the few bad actors.
Approaches are different for different problems, but the best way to solve these is no broad laws that treat everyone like criminals, its to make it inneficient or unprofitable for the bad actors. In piracy and marijuana, it might be better to create legal competition that will take the money out of the hands of the bad actors and let a market control things. In the case of methlabs and homelessness , you need to let the government come in and take care of the worst offenders.
That's really the problem with a lot of this legislation, you are trying to treat a power-law distribution of a problem with a linear approach, bringing everyone down on the y-axis a little bit does very little to the few at the end of the curve.
"how can they call it a MINE if everything here is THEIRS?!?!" -Straight Jacket
They're distracting the populace from what's really important. If people knew beyond a shadow of a doubt what the PATRIOT Act actually did, instead of mapping the meaning of the word that was formed from the acronym of the REAL name of the act, they'd probably go ballistic on them- once it was explained what was done to them all in the name of the War on Terror.
I'm all for protecting the country from the problem- but the PATRIOT Act doesn't really do what needs to be done (folks, it needs to be out in the open...) and few of the things they enacted to "protect" us would have done squat to protect us from what happened on 9/11. That'd be more effort than they probably want to spend on things- after all, we have all those pork barrel projects to fund as well, you know...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
This meth restriction is yet another step toward treating innocent Americans like criminals by making us show our "papers" and submit to government logging to engage in a perfectly legal activity. The abusive and almost-always-wrong no-fly list concept (ask anyone named David Nelson or Robert Johnson how hard it is to get on an airplane) is now being expanded to a no-buy list.
We can't fly for work or leisure without this crap, and now we can't treat our cold/allergies with the safe, legal medicine of our choice.
I for one plan to *walk* to a pharmacy the next time I need cold meds and show the same government-issued photo ID I use to fly: an INS PortPass with no address and no expiration date. There is *no* requirement to carry a drivers license around in this country if you are not driving, and I make it a point never to show my DL to anyone other than for driving purposes.
If the pharmacy refuses to sell me legal medication because I chose not to drive to their store, I'll tell them to expect a call from the press and a lawyer. I wonder if any of the civil-liberties groups will help out on this.
I urge *anyone* subjected to this crap once the federal law is in place to collect the names and contact info of the pharmacy and whatever law enforcement agency they are turning your data over to and to file a detailed Privacy Act and Freedom of Information Act request demanding to see the recordds they are maaintining on you. If we the people can make the pharmacists and enforcement agencies suffer under a crushing burden of questions and paperwork, they will demand a fix that respects privacy and freedom.
Madrid, Londond? When did we aquire Europe? I got dibs on Poland!
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
Wow. It never fails. The ignorant are always the loudest.
You don't even know where those references came from, do you?
What bloody difference does it make which site they happen to be reproduced on? It doesn't take away from their relevance.
But then, you are clearly opposed to actually reading and thinking. You've already made up your mind and no amount of hard data or logic is going to roust you from your little make-believe paradigm. --Ignore anything which illustrates the falsehoods of your position and yell nice and loud. Good plan.
You're sure to avoid the camps with that attitude. Heck, you might even land a nice job with Bush's goon squad putting other liberal suckers behind the barbed wire. It's every man for himself, eh?
-FL
Some big-software products have always made be the buyer feel like a betatester. It's not quite right, but they had a deadline to meet and sold it anyway, promising to fix it later with patches and stuff. Specter's encouragment to pass this flawed bill now and fix it later approach feels much the same. Only I don't feel my software has been fixed to satisfaction, will the fixes to this borked law be any better?
Look how far we've come:
"Give me liberty, or give me death" Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
"Civil liberties do not mean much when you are dead," Sen. Jim Bunning (R-Ky) March 2, 2006
Our flawed Republic is not it--only better than all the other alternatives.
It is called proportional representation.
As of now, the only government that has this system in place is Israel. Works pretty well for them. They get leaders that the people want rather than just 51% of them.
Sure they have external problems with Palestine (and questionable practices against with them), but as far as their inner workings go, they are way more democratic than us.
Then after that there is the parliment system. Has a few more flaws than the proportional, but you still get better leaders than through a electoral college system like we have.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I'll probably never leave (in this you are right), at least not till my enlistment is up to many people depend upon me here. However as far as theoretical location, possibly finland, looks like a nice place.
I SHALL RAIN DOWN MISSILES-IN-A-BUN ON YOUR PITIFUL CITY'S!
Three, no, I have one for you though. My sister opened a checking account using a school ID and my mother went with her to open it. The lady at the bank said fine. A week or two later a letter arrives in the mail about how her account is about to be closed because of the USA Patrior Act unless she provided state issued ID or something.
Because that's how the terrorists did it, with non-interest earning checking accounts.
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
For those of you to young to remember this, Arlen Specter was the chief architect and proponent of the (in)famous and absurd "Magic Bullet Theory" of the Kennedy assination. That's right folks, one of the most laughable ideas about one of the most un-funny events in the history of the nation, is his brainchild.
This man has been arm-in-arm with the ruling elite since day one, and is not to be trusted under any circumstances.
What's next Arlen, the Magic Freedoms Theory?
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
News Flash, we had enough information to stop the attack on the WTC on 9/11. The problem was not collecting information, or even processing it; the problem was acting on the information. Given the performance of DHS responding to last years hurricanes, I don't have much faith that there had been any improvement in their ability to act on information. The problem seems to be in the vast beuracracy, increasingly made up of political appointees.
As presented by the President, the WTC style attack was foiled in Asia. A more accurate portrayal of the announcment would be "a plot was foiled" not "a plot was foiled by the White House." The President made no direct claims that U.S. policy or personnel played any role in the those arrests. Given this administrations willingness to reveal and even manufacture classified information for the sake of scoring political points, it seems likely that if the Patriot Act or NSA played any major role in those arrests, they would have specifically pointed it out.
Perhaps you remember shortly after 9/11, and shortly before the passing of the Patriot act, there were anthrax attacks targeted against memebers of the media and leaders within the opposition party? Appearantly, the abilities to monitor all communications, break into any residence, and to steal any property have not been sufficient to bring those attackers to justice. Last I heard, the strain of anthrax was traced back to a U.S. weapons lab. Perhaps we should just round up everyone who has had contact with that strain, send them off to secret prisons, and torture them until somebody talks. I know I'd feel safer.
The Patriot act and the war powers of the President seem insufficient to the task of keeping us safe. They clearly need to be expanded. All these rights and liberties are so "anti national security", they just might be un-American. Personally, I favor "equiping" all people under U.S. control with collars which allow for tracking, surveilence, interrogation, and termination. Maybe then we can be "safe". Oh, by the way, did I mention my uncle has a company which makes such security devices? He likes the name "Freedom Collar", but I think "Patriot Collar" would be an easier sell.
Perhaps some of you don't remember 9/11. But don't you remember the March 11th train bombing in Madrid or the attacks just this last summer in London?
If you fear terrorism, you are a coward plain and simple. You are more likley to die because of a drunk driver. Even if 9/11 happened every day for a year more people would have died to car accidents, yet we don't see more laws being passed in the name of public saftey for the "War on Drunk Driving"
Secondly, you are just plain ignorant to think it requires new powers to government.
9/11 happened because the pilots didn't lock their doors like they do is Israel.
To prevent 9/11 again, we simply have to require more common sense on the airlines. We do not... I repeat... We do not need to pass more laws in order to prevent more terrorism. Killing people and conspiring to kill people is illegal right? There ya go. Go catch those terrorists. You don't need to trample on the Constitution in order to do so.
Lastly, laws will not prevent terrorism. I'm more right wing than probaly you, but I know the reason why we haven't caught Bin Laden is not because we haven't passed another Patriot act but it is our leaders or incompentant or cowards.
Or perhaps there is a reason Pakistan hasn't caught him yet. Maybe we are paying them too much money to find him and they wouldn't want a good deal to go away. Maybe they have nukes and we don't have the balls to stop terrorism once and for all.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
See here.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
Didn't you realize that anything which didn't pass as desired on national level is just handed over to the EU bureaucrats and gets shoved up our asses through the back door? (Pun intended)
Not even those few politicians, who had a somewhat good reputation like Jörg Tauss, do care anymore. "We had to adopt it, so I voted for it, even though I think that regulation is wrong."
So in the end, our beloved government, be it on EU or national level, just watches what's going on in the US, what their administration is able to pass, and which regulations don't get fight back with teeth, claws, and firearms.
Is there a site that has video of the interesting senate speeches? C-Span takes days to post video, and they never post the interesting ones. Right now I'm looking for the one of Russ Feingold where he reads the Constitution.
If you really think that this fight needs firearms, I'm off and against your viewpoint. The end doesn't justify this mean. We had this viewpoint already in the 70s and the 80s (RAF), and it does not good. (I don't know how old you are -- I lived through that time, and it was not nice. It got enough political ammunition in the hands of the conservatives to destroy German's left. Well, what was left of it.)
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
No person in their right mind would want to stop the government from doing thorough terroist investigations. Today more than ever, we must support our government and these investigations. However, just as important, we need to protect our civil liberties by putting checks and balances into the Patriot Act. Let's continue this healthy debate. Let's not trade off our freedom for security. After all, there is nothing more secure than a maximum security prison. Yet who in their right mind would trade their freedom for that kind of security?
Apart from just creating some steam on Slashdot, Heise Newsticker, or some average politician saying "Yes, that's a bad thing to happen, but I voted in favor of it because I didn't have a choice."
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
You are sadly mistaken. Labor is not suppressed. Right now the NFL players union is in serious contract negotiations with the ownership. The whole future of the sport is in jeopardy. If that's not power of labor, what is????
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You know, the only guy that had the brass to vote against USA PATRIOT the first time? I'd vote for him based on that alone.
Too bad they didn't pass it on the 70th anniversary of the Reichstag fire February 27, 1933, but that might have been too obvious. History does not repeat itself but it does produce derivative acts. I haven't read what passed, but it did have a provision to allow you to protest a gag order/national security letter. After ONE year. Let's enjoy freedom of expression while it lasts. Do an I'm-feeling-lucky Google search for asshole.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Be sure, at the very least if these folks are your senators, to thank the ten who voted no. They are:
If you live in Hawaii, you might ask Sen. Inouye why he didn't vote.
If you live anywhere else, make sure that your senators feel it.
www.wavefront-av.com
Errr, wait.. no one from NH voted against this? Death please.
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
>The election was in 2004, get over it.
Whether you like it or not, that wasn't the last election the US will ever have. You can't have your party win once and then decide that's it, "get over it", politics are a thing of the past, tough luck. It doesn't work that way. The Bush term will end, and his stewardship has been so breathtakingly poor, that there's every likelihood that all the authority he grabbed for the Executive office, will be handed over to an incoming administration that is the diametric opposite of his party. And when that happens, and people tell YOU to "get over it", you won't be able to.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Wish I had mod points - love the comment!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
You're going to make a sweeping generalization about the power of labor by using the pro football league as an example?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Last time I checked, the Australian government was not under control of the US Legislature.
I think your country shares the blame here. Clean your own house, then throw stones.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
These labs can be concealed, whether in the woods or in an apartment building. I am not so upset by the drug use and the crimes that users commit outside the manufacturing. The reason we have a check on the QUANTITY of this medicine purchased is so that it makes it harder to manufacture. Manufacturing meth is an extremely dangerous process, and it was getting out of hand.
I have seen numerous apartment fires due to meth labs. About one a week at the peak of the problem. People have been burned, people have died, and the lucky innocents in a neighboring apartment might just end up homeless. Pseudoephedrine is still legal, you just have to walk five more feet to counter to buy the medicine.
It is a simple fix, in between making this a prescription only drug and having it on the shelves. I do admit it sets a bad precedent for tracking what people purchase, and it could be abused. We have to keep the system honest, and that is possible... So please don't reach for your tinfoil hat just yet.
Since these laws, I have seen less fires, and have heard less about people losing their llves and property.
That always annoys me to hear that. You do know what you're suggesting, right? That we should have let Hitler have Europe, let Hussein continue murdering thousands and have Kuwait, let 3rd world countries suffer under tyranny, and let the terrorists keep killing innocents and building up armies. Why would you want that? If it hits home I guarantee you'd be asking yourself why nobody did anything to stop this. Don't forget, most countries are behind us and sending troops right along side in support. It's easy to exercise the free speech of calling it being a bully, but keep in mind that's probably what lets you do just that. The world isn't perfect...some people have to be dealt with.
Calling 9/11 a gasoline tax is just sickening and disrespectful to those who died (and they were from several countries).
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
Sorry, should have included sarcasm tags.
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I mean, come on - let's be honest. It's Arizona, we have a very porous border with our neighbor to the south, it is very easy to get pseudoephedrine down there in many forms for drug manufacture. Heck, it is easier to set up and run a meth lab down there than up here. The law that passed here in AZ was nothing more than a "feel good" measure that does nothing more than make it more difficult for regular citizens to buy OTC cold meds.
The stupid thing is that you couldn't buy enough of the cold meds at one shot, or multiple shots, to actually do this before the law (to make it worthwhile). Unless you filled up your grocery cart, that is. It was much easier to "wait for a box to fall off the truck", so to speak. Guess what - the new law still doesn't stop those errant boxes from falling...
Not that it matters, though - meth production moved down to Mexico a long time ago. There was a series of stories on this not to long ago in the Phoenix New Times...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Very well said. Even after 9/11, America has suffered far fewer casualties to terrorism than many countries yet we are shoveling our rights away faster than anyone else.
I fully believe in and support Ben Franklin's quote. Liberties are worth far more than a little (mostly illusory) security.
At the current rate of change, I give it about a decade before China and the US switch places (with China being the democracy and the US being the fascist state).
I have four words that apply, a concept that has apparently seeped from the programming world into the political one:
"Release now, patch later"
~ Wizardry Dragon
The hypocrises of the Patriot Act and the like are why US politics are now so despised among Americans who pay attention and understand the founding ideas of our country.
US politics no longer serve the people. It is a self-sustaining system of perception and lies designed to help the politicians and their "friends" (lately big business).
Yes the whole obcession America has with war is dispicable. I'm Canadian and when I went on a trip with a whole bunch of Americans all they could talk about is there army. If I said something about Canada they would mostly end up saying that atleast America's army was the best. I should hope so spending billions of dollars on it annually.
I always thought that collective security was the way to go. I would say that is roughly what Canada is doing. We help other countries, mostly opur army is used for humanitarian and peacekeeping/making missions. If anyone attacked us we probably wouldn't do that great by ourselves but think about the people who would back us up. Most likely every country on the UN Seceraty Counsel and others as well.
So yes you guys are obsessed with your military and that is probably bad. The other thing is that most likely this whole patriot act is designerd to give the government more power. Just like the whole war on terrorism is just to get that passed and other such things, and the terrorist attacks were probably just there to start the war. I would suggest watching this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-777269653 0684663669&q=9%2F11+loose+change.
After watching that tell me you don't have some doubts. The fact that they are hiding so much is unsettling. And even if the attacks were caused by Al Quaeda, what if they are just doing what the U.S. said? On the other hand they could just hate the U.S. and be extremists like most people believe. Even so they have all those weapons because you gave them to them during the Cold War. Back when Russia was occupying Iran I beieve.
If America was smart all of it's citizens would unite and demand an explanation, because I think the Government could shed alot of light on this that the don't want to. What happened to "...and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."(Abraham Licoln, The Gettysburg Address [1863])? As you may notice of the people, by the people, for the people. There doesn't seem to be alot of that happening.
Re "What if the other guy gets the White House? What then? How would YOU feel when they come for YOU!?!"
You know what? I'm not scared one whit. As long as a potential President H. Clinton follows the law and doesn't go beyond the powers granted by the constitution and congress, I'll be perfectly safe.
They CAN'T torture me, I'm a citizen of the U.S. and I haven't taken up arms against my country. If I did, I would make sure that I wore the uniform of the country I am fighting for and make sure the country was a signatory of the Geneva Convention. That way, the Geneva Convention would protect me.
They can't wiretap ME, but they can wiretap the enemy. If I receive a call from the enemy, guess what, I would HOPE a President H. Clinton was listening to the conversation! If I was stupid enough to place a call to the enemy, I would hope she would be listening to that as well. Of course, I don't want her to hear my private calls between me and people who haven't taken it upon themselves to kill as many Americans as possible, and there is nothing in the PATRIOT act that permits her to do so.
As for the conservative reaction to President Bush's behavior, you'll have to read very closely to what they say. They are upset with his ARROGANCE, not his behavior. They are upset that President Bush doesn't stoop down to the level of his moonbat attackers and address their issues. They want President Bush to come out and say, "I didn't cause Hurricane Katrina, nobody can cause a hurricane, and I didn't single out New Orleans because they were black. In fact I did everything in my power to try and help the people in New Orleans." Instead, like a king, President Bush is silent and expects people to follow his lead politcally without question.
No one is suggesting that the president is exceeding his constitutional limits. In fact, people are wondering why he isn't exercising his wartime powers and imprisoning those people in this country actively collaborating with our declared enemies, and shutting down the newspapers and TV shows that are demoralizing the troops and inspiring the enemy. We have historical precedence for President Bush doing far more than he is doing now, and frankly, I would like the president, of any party or gender, to act like a president during wartime. The faster this war gets over, the faster we can get back to normal life. But to pretend that we are at peace when we are at war is a formula for disaster.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
I still marvel at how so few of the people of the US are willing to actually take the time and effort to think for themselves.
If there are any earthquakes in the eastern part of the US, it will be from your founding fathers spinning in their graves over the mess the People have made of the country...
Don't have anything better to do than troll? At least be less obvious about it..
I can't understand how a technical crowd such as this, when confronted with facts and rhetoric, abandon the facts and embrace the rhetoric. Thanks to the internet, we have the facts readily available, and we have the ability to read these things for ourselves. In technical issues, I would say the Slashdot crowd is better than most. But when it comes to politics, its as if they collectively turn off their brains and being spewing whatever lines have been fed to them by the media.
I also can't understand why we don't have more diversity of opinion. I know the side I am on embraces free speech and encourages new ideas and debate. We certainly don't want to shut anyone up. Even the worst abusers of free speech are doing us a favor by making their side look childish and silly. But the other side has elements that wish the other side would all go away. That bothers me.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
If you think the above comment is even slightly interesting or informative, you'll have to mod it up. There are a group of moderators who would rather silence me than see an opposing opinion. They can't tolerate healthy debate, and refuse to argue with someone they don't agree with. Everytime the post moves into positive territory, they'll hit it with "overrated" because that is not meta-moderated.
If you don't have mod-points, now is a good time to do some meta-moderation. Whenever you mark a bad moderation, it really affects the person who moderated in the first place.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
'nuff said.
*PLONK*
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
Actually, I think a bunch of people are suggesting that.
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
The government doesn't need new tools; they just need to learn how to use the tools they already have.
And this is precisely the problem. Because sufficient fear and anxiety surrounding the threat of terrorism has been engendered in the populace politicians find themselves in a quandry: they have to be seen to be doing something regardless of whether it works or not. The tools they already have are not good enough because they don't involve politicians doing anything, or taking any action. The PATRIOT act, the war in Iraq, etc. get a lot of support for the sake of changing perception rather than changing reality. It's not about fixing the problem, it's about being seen to take visible action.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
??? I guess these US Marshals are taken from the guys who screwed up royally after being transferred to Greenland.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
Hold on a sec. I am not butchering anything. I obtained and confirmed the quote from several independent sources. You only provide one. While yours does look like it has been researched (or copied) by that wiki author in a little more detail, that doesn't guarantee it is more accurate. For the sake of argument that yours is correct since it really isn't important at all to the point.
What is perhaps more important than the actual wording of the quote is the point: that trading rights and freedoms for security is generally not a good idea. I don't think anybody would have interpretted it as mean any right or freedom starting from 100% no restrictions. That's just silly.
But you are completely bypassing the point I was making for the sake of trying too be geekier about the correct quote. Millions died protecting the rights to not have government monitoring them over reading books on Winnie the Pooh, or Islam, or whatever (as an example). That 3000 more have died and everyone turns 180 degrees on these issues, without even requiring the government to demonstrate the necessity or usefulness, is a travesty and says a lot about the self-centeredness of today's society in America and the ability of propaganda to scare the crap out of them and just start handing over their rights.
I'd rather live with a 1/100,000 chance (3000 out of 300 million) of being killed by a terrorist on American soil than have 300 million people lose rights like this. And that terrorist risk also doesn't take into account the bungling of the intelligence under the existing system in 2001 nor in the increase in security that could be done without reducing rights and freedoms. It hasn't been demonstrated that these measures are even necessary. In some cases, the response security measures (and potentially violations of rights) are even counter-productive towards securing against terrorism.
Show me the evidence that the government has been spying on US citizens and not on foreign terrorists? Got any?
No?
Gee, I wonder why.
Have you missed all the flak about domestic spying recently?
Anyway, it's very difficult to get information about a secret spy program when it's, you know, secret.
If all these "freedoms" Liberals crow about were so important to the Founding Fathers, why were they in a Amendments to the Constitution instead of in the Constitution itself?
Thomas Jefferson (at least) thought the Constitution was good except for two things: no bill of rights and the lack of a term limit for the President. The Bill of Rights was added in 1791.
Russia never occupied Iran. We gave those weapons to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. The whole "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of thing. Iran was our enemy, Iraq was Iran's enemy, so Iraq is our friend.
Everybody is outraged by the patriot act but I doubt anyone posting has been personally affected. On the other hand, our socialist tax code affects everyone, and no one complains about it. Can't we put our energy into something more worthwhile?
Vote for Pedro
You do know what you're suggesting, right? That we should have let Hitler have Europe, let Hussein continue murdering thousands and have Kuwait, let 3rd world countries suffer under tyranny, and let the terrorists keep killing innocents and building up armies.
Do you honestly believe for one second that our government (or any other) is acting out of altruism? That's a little naive, don't you think? There are corporate dollars at stake, and that is the chief consideration of the predators in charge. We could act in a hundred different ways to minimize loss of life, but we don't do it --- not if it conflicts with profit.
The "Four legs good, two legs better" came about after the pigs had changed the laws of the animal state to allow them to do whatever they wanted, effectively making them the same as the enemies they supposedly fought against. The Patriot Act promises to protect us against loss of freedom while rewriting the laws of our country to take them away, just like the pigs in Animal Farm.
Animal Farm wasn't just a denunciation of Soviet Communism, it was a warning not to put your full faith in ANY government.
Is that personal enough for you?
I know I should not feed the trolls, but... Yes, you are exatcly right. People who read terrorist propaganda should be protected. This is basically one of the founding principles of the United States of America. It is embodied in the First Amendment. Had modern terminology existed at the time, the broadsides and papers thathelped organize the revolutionists would have been considered terrorist propaganda. The British Empire made the mistake of banning such publications. You want us to make the same mistake.
He effected a bored affect.
"The faster this war gets over, the faster we can get back to normal life." The thing you seem to forget is that this war will never be over. Under what conditions would you consider the war on terror to be over? Osama dead? All terrorists dead? All muslims dead? The middle east a smoking crater? When you fight a war against an idea, that war will never end. So you are advocating vastly expanded presidential and governmental powers during wartime, when we are fighting a war that will never end. So essentially granting these expanded powers indefinately.
"They can't wiretap ME, but they can wiretap the enemy." Another point, under the provisions of the PATRIOT act, you would never know whether or not they wiretapped you, so how can you say with such authority that they would never wiretap you?
Hell yes. And the victims of the attacks themselves are often the ones angry at what is being done in their name.
, 1638838,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780
Tulloch, who has professorships at both Brunel and Cardiff universities, is appalled by the way the photograph was used. "This is using my image to push through draconian and utterly unnecessary terrorism legislation. Its incredibly ironic that the Sun's rhetoric is as the voice of the people yet they don't actually ask the people involved, the victims, what they think. If you want to use my image, the words coming out of my mouth would be, 'Not in my name, Tony'. I haven't read anything or seen anything in the past few months to convince me these laws are necessary."
The automatic reaction to 9/11 or any other terrorist attack should not, and must not be an automatic endorsement of new rules. It is simply wrong to try to use 'remember 9/11' to beat off rational debate.
I could not agree more. Terrorism has proven to be an irrelevant risk to the American populace. In the week including 9/11 more people died from smoking than the attack.
Further, there is a fundamental disconnect in the procedural criticism of legislation that utterly fails to relate the results with the methods. While it is entirely appropriate to ask why 9/11 and how do we prevent such disasters in the future, we must measure every solution in it's value in achieving the goal and compare that value to it's cost.
The Patriot act, among other recent trends in jurisprudence undermine, even negate, many of the freedoms on which American's have counted since the founding of the republic. To read the words of our founders, of patriots through the years, these basic freedoms have been considered beyond compromise, literally worth dying for.
No evidence has been provided that the freedoms we have lost have earned us any security, not even temporary.
The tree of liberty is parched, yet those that most vociferously proclaim themselves such, only prove Johnson right.
The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence until you get there and relize, maybe the grass is pretty much the same!
when in doubt press enter and we'll figure it out later..
Sound like a plan to me. With climate change and all the northern extremities would probably not be too bad, except for the violent weather. That, and you'd need to wear SPF200+ sunblock just to walk outside. ;P
:/
Actually it's not that bad an idea, except that there is little infrastructure there for supplies and communication. Translation: we need investors in order to start a colony. That and as soon as someone tries it, all the other countries that have been wanting to claim it will bomb anyone that tries to start a new nation on it. Argentina and the United Kingdom come to mind as being virulently set on claiming everything in the area. Too bad.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Or maybe his first language is french.
That always annoys me to hear that. You do know what you're suggesting, right? That we should have let Hitler have Europe, let Hussein continue murdering thousands and have Kuwait, let 3rd world countries suffer under tyranny, and let the terrorists keep killing innocents and building up armies. Why would you want that? If it hits home I guarantee you'd be asking yourself why nobody did anything to stop this. Don't forget, most countries are behind us and sending troops right along side in support. It's easy to exercise the free speech of calling it being a bully, but keep in mind that's probably what lets you do just that. The world isn't perfect...some people have to be dealt with.
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. You're right--it's a good idea to ask why nobody stopped 9/11. But when you start to dig it becomes fairly obvious that we created those who attacked us, as a direct result of our foreign policy. Interestingly enough, I remember Newt Gingrich on CNN the night of 9/11 saying somethign similar.
Fighting Hitler is not an example of bullying. We do not have a great track record of helping out 3rd world countries--in fact, if you look at our involvement in South America, we tend to have a history of assisting tyrants (see also: Iraq). When we do intervene it is not to do something morally right, it is because the region is important to us financially or strategically. That's all. So I do not think that your examples are really any good.
Finally--who exactly is "behind" us? Are you counting UNAMI? Lots of the Coalition members are withdrawing, drawing down their presence, or have already withdrawn. I'd say there is a lot more global opposition to our policies than global support for wars that fulfill those policies.
You have tried all the law enforcement channels without success. Another poster suggested contacting the local papers. A further step could be contacting your local city council member/alderman. All of them have offices in their districts. Try going there in person with photos, video footage, etc., and ask for their help. Do the same also with your member in the House of Representatives, if you are fortunate enough to live in an area with enough population for their office to be within your easy physical reach. But even if not, it's still worth a try to call/email them. It's an election year, so chances are they might respond so they can stick another feather in their cap and prove they're "fighting for you."
Another tack to try is the legal angle. Chances are someone owns the building that the lab is operating out of. Sue them for bringing down your property value or harming your business. If there is no owner and it's simply an abandoned building, sue the city and find an ambitious young lawyer who wants to make a name for him/herself.
You could also bring the matter to the attention of the local PTAs, business councils, and any number of other organizations. But the key thing to do is make the issue visible. If you do that, law enforcement will be forced to act.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Yes. That's the point. Everyone's doing it.
Read up on Scott Parkin. Then google up on 'US torture camps'.
Who exactly flew the planes into your buildings? The Iraqis? No. The Afghanis? No. The Iranians? No. It's claimed that Al Queda was responsible, but the US government did everything they could to prevent any sort of investigation into what actually happened. There is ample evidence that repeated warnings of an immanent attack were ignored - people were even told to stop raising warnings about this particular attack. The US airforce were told to stand down. There is even evidence that one of the planes ( which resembles a US military aircraft ) had explosives onboard, and *they* were responsible for the towers coming down. I say ( and a lot of people are starting to agree with me ), that Bin Laden ( Emperor Dubya's biggest financial backer ) was invited to attack the WTC and Pentagon, and promised safety in return.
That bitch Rice is the exception that proves the rule. She's not female anyway.
You really are deluded. I've listened to the 'Voice of America' broadcast. It's a fucking joke, as is the rest of the so-called 'independant' media. Where, for example, is the discussion of impeachment over Dubya's breaking of numerous laws? The media were certainly on the case over Clinton. Where is the analysis of the illegal wars you are involved in. One would think that with over 50% of the population now against the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, that a balanced media would spend some time on the issue - apart from repeating government BS about the flourishing democracy and roses sprouting from the graves of Iraqi children. Your media is one of your most frightening points.
I rest my case.
We're not talking about Germany. Keep on the ball.
Actually, being a revolutionary socialist, that's exactly what I suggest. Thanks for asking :)
Yes it did. It pushed the world into the 20th century. The Russion Revolution achieved a lot for people everywhere. They were the 1st to get an 8 hour working day, *real* freedom of religion, homosexual relationships legalised, freedom of political association. They even managed to pull out of World War 1. Of course the shit hit the fan once the rest o
Hear hear!
:)
I'm gladdened to see that there are some other thinking americans left
The other thing that people seem to forget is that the government exists to serve the people, not control the people. And, if the "terrorist threat" is as bad as they like to make it out to be, then it is the duty of every american to strap on a sidearm and defend their country and their freedoms from the imminent threat.
You're exactly right -- americans are too self-centered and uncaring about anything going on that doesn't affect their immediate life... but they're not willing to do anything themselves to protect themselves or their way of life... all we hear is cries of "please protect me oh great benevolent government!".
sickening...
Place sig here.
43,000 deaths per year due to motor vehicles.
14,900 deaths due to falls
8,600 poisoning
4,000 drowning
3,700 fires
3,300 suffocation
1,500 firearms
700 poisoning from gases
Basically, you're only slightly less likely to be killed by a terrorist than you are to die from suffocation.
(well, at least during that one year that there was a terrorist attack)
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
Let me help you find it:
a ri&rls=en&q=Methamphetamine+Fire&btnG=Search/
Look up "meth fire" or "methamphetamine fire" and see how many articles you find from across the country.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=saf
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8769919/site/newsweek
http://www.rid-meth.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine
Thanks for being such a fucking smartass. This is a discussion board, and sometimes you have to go out and do a little bit of research.
What is your objection to having to take an extra 2 minutes to get cold medicine? Especially when that small step has made it harder for someone to kill themselves or others? You give me one good reason...
Even if 9/11 happened every day for a year more people would have died to car accidents,
That may be a bit of an exaggeration. According to the the DOT 42,196 people died in car crashes in 2001 (and for the next three years within 1,000 of that number). The death toll of 9/11 is 2,986.
2,986 * 365 = 1,089,890, or approximately 26 times the number of automotive fatalities.
Now, one could also interpret your statement as to automotive fatalities for all time, but then one would have to consider all terrorism-related deaths for all time (and debate whether to consider one or both of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc).
The point, though, is still clear. The average person appears much more likely (provided the risk of a WMD-based attack on the US is sufficiently small) to be killed in a car accident than be killed by a terrorist attack. Of course, it's that fear of a WMD-based attack that gets people really anxious.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Proponents of the PATRIOT ACT have a pre-1776 mindset.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
And how many Sihk cab drivers do we have to lose because some side-armed redneck thought they were a towelhead A-rab?
*the use of stereotypical terms in this post was a mistakenly vain attempt at satire. No rednecks were harmed in the production of this post.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Red herring.
We live under the rule of law, not the rule of "Founding Fathers" (which strikes me as remarkably similar to the "divine right of kings" idea we fought a revolution against). It doesn't matter who added what when or why, it was ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures and that is all that matters.
Sashsaquch (Skookum, Big Foot, etc.) seems to imply he's from the Pacific Northwest(US)/Southwest(CDN). From the spelling I'm guessing he's the son of a truck driver from Surrey.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Dick Cheney shooting his friend is a living metaphor for everything that is wrong with this administration (including restricting civil liberties). It got so much air time because no one could believed it hadn't happened sooner.
In other words, you wanted it to be true. When Cheney actually did actually shoot someone, it was likely a huge relief and joy to you because it confirmed what you wanted to be true.
I've seen this kind of behavior in others as well. Zealous people will often times wish for harm on other people just to prove that their convictions are true. I am a gay parent, and I have often read gay-bashing Christians relentlessly spout off statistics about the failure rates of gay relationships, the rates of child abuse committed by gay people, and the disease rates of gay men.
The particularly evil thing about gay-bashing Christians' desire fascination with those statistics is that they want all those things to be true -- for if it actually turned out that gay relationship were more successful than straight ones, if gay people were less likely than straight people to commit child abuse, and gay people were less prone to disease than straight people, then that would contradict their pre-conceived notions about gay people being evil and disgusting. Hence, gay-bashing Christians desire instability, child abuse, and disease to befall other people just so they can be right.
And so it is with many people who hate Bush. I think many of them were glad that an innocent man was shot in the face. It gave them opportunity to tell the world, "See! Cheney really is a KILLER! Well, he didn't actually kill anyone, but you get the idea..."
And that's my only word of warning to anyone who feels very, very, very strongly that they are right and the rest of the world "doesn't get it". Don't allow your desire to prove your Truth(tm) to everyone else to go so far that you would wish harm on other people!
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
"when they were used to be a role model for a free society?"
No, we've pretty much been despised since inception (e. g. most of the intelligencia of Europe have always looked down on the US as an uneducated rabble, chaotic and uncivilized... er... uncivilised). This just happens to be one of the times they're right.
The fact that laws are in legalese, or I assume so as all I have ever seen are in that way, makes it hard to read.
That, my friend...is by design. I am certain that a certain segment of the workforce that specializes in "translating" legalese into layman's terms, will be happy to help you for about $250/hr. They're called Attorneys. And in case you haven't noticed, they wield a LOT of power in this country. An unusual amoutn, in fact. And, personally, they remind me a lot of scribes back in their day and the power they wielded (like copying the bible, etc).
Brought to you by: Dewey, Screwum, and Howe LLP
Here's the only 10 senators with enough guts to stand up for america's civil liberties
I really hate it when the Republicans spout off rhetoric like, "They attack us because of our freedoms", actively separating "freedom" from liberty.
I also really hate it when the Democrats spout off rhetoric like yours, which actively separates "civil liberties" from liberty.
It belies the true feelings of both groups: neither one really cares about liberty -- the ability any individual to do whatever the fuck he or she pleases provided that he or she does not deprive anyone else of life, liberty, or property. It means they care about their agenda but need to spin it in terms that resonate with a sizeable-enough chunk of voters in order to gain or maintain political power. We Americans sure like liberty, right? No, most Americans are afraid or just plain ignorant of it.
I wish there were are few more politicans out there who would stand up for liberty, but I think there are far too many voters in the world who are much more interested in politicans who promise to CONTROL other people. "Security" is sooo much more appealing to people than liberty is.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
[Our elected officials] represent the people.
No, they don't.
They were elected by voters in our election system. This causes some people to commit the non-sequitur to believe that they "represent" me and thus "represent" my wishes.
They are in the position not because of any demonstrated capability to lead, solve problems, or do good in the world, but rather because of their demonstrated ability to win elections.
I will never accept that the ability of one individual to win elections means that she or he "represents" me or "represents" my wishes. Politicians represent themselves.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Yes.
Were that I say, pancakes?
Something fundamental has changed in the thinking of Americans over the last hundred years. You can hear it in the media, in everyday conversation, and especially from the politicians.
We're totalitarians now. But we've been robbed of the language to understand that. Our thinking has become statist but has still retained terms like "liberty" and "freedom." Those words are pretty much myths at this point. The only reason anyone is free to point it out is because doing so will accomplish nothing. You can't explain that the sky is blue when the listener has no concept of color.
This used to be a country of individualists, entrepreneurs, INDEPENDENT PEOPLE. They didn't need government programs and plans to get by. They solved their own damn problems. A free market provided. Government sustained itself on tarriffs. Today we have far more oppressive taxes and excises upon the people. We get taxed for WORKING. And nobody thinks this is dangerously close to communism. America has become deeply militarist. Invading an unarmed sandbox to maintain economic hegemony gets stupidly equated with "defending our freedoms" and nobody chuckles. We had instituted a military draft and today it's just thought of as a political taboo instead of the first hint of totalitarianism. It's all sure as hell statism, and that is totalitarian by definition.
Ask an American what they think of totalitarianism. It's a Bad Thing(tm) right?
Now ask them what they would sacrifice--TO THE GOVERNMENT--in order to stop totalitarian regimes.
Would they give their income? Their privacy? Their rights? Their life?
You've just met a totalitarian.
I thought you were serious, sorry. Spending too much time on alt.politics groups. There really are some morons out there, and some of them really *do* believe football is the most important thing in the world.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
(sigh)...
You are the British soldier that Ganhdi stood against in his struggle for India's independence.
You are the man screaming in the face of a young black girl as she climbs the steps hoping for a better life in a country that says she is second class.
You are the voice of a woman that screams religious epitaths during a private, loving funeral for a fallen american soldier.
So much anger, so much hubris it blinds and warps reason. Your comments are the reminder we have not crawled far from, us humans, the primate nature where blind following was deamed acceptable; reason was shattered by rocks, clubs, swords, words, and now laws.
Your world is very simple, and very scary. I pray I never have to live in it though sadly, it is not so far away. There is nothing more to say to you for your statements establish the tone of your message; one of chaos.
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
If all these "freedoms" Liberals crow about were so important to the Founding Fathers, why were they in a Amendments to the Constitution instead of in the Constitution itself?
Many at the time expressed the concern that if they explicitly enumerated the most basic and important rights, some idiot would come to the conclusion that this was an exhaustive list of all the rights that were deserved. Sadly, the Founders didn't anticipate the kind of idiot who would conclude that their presence as explicit ammendments would prove their lack of importance.
Before 11 Sep 2001, Americans hadn't had an attack on one of the actual states in living memory: Hawaii and Alaska not being states during WW2 when they were attacked. War, for current Americans, has always been an "away game", so it has been a bit of a shock to the US comfort zone to have casualties in its own backyard. They haven't got the British memories of being repeatedly bombed during WW2, and of Irish nationalist bombings since then. All American losses have been comfortably overseas, among all those dangerous foreigners. Back home, they are "safe".
So, Americans are used to the idea that they can bomb the innards out of other nations, but no one dares lay a hand on the, A shock to discover they are not invulnerable.
Scared wimps indeed. Of course, some of my fellow Australians are not much better.
I am anarch of all I survey.
And I still think that the US has much to offer, both personally with its overboarding (sometimes naive) optimism, and with its political views and history. It's just sad that the current government gives a shit about that.
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
Much better than a bunch of lobbyists taking over the US, breaking US laws, and coming away with it because nobody's interested.
But just for you, I have another quote, from Ice-T: ``When people talk about the system, than it's Rock 'n' Roll. When they talk about popcorn and ice-cream, than it's Pop.'' (I have better political ones, but they are in German. :( )
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
You're right that the last ten years were a set-back. We were stronger before. But this doesn't mean giving up. It means we have to try to get more (young) people into politics, into ATTAC city groups, into local community-based citizen organizations, into our own lobby organizations (FFI, FIFF, etc.), and into the parties [sic!]. It means to go into your local professional organization (like the GI) and change its politics because they are asked by politicians what to do -- even though one might despise the `old' man that are currently at the front. Let's replace them! That's the only way to get forward -- getting active, politically.
I do so, since more than 25 years. What are you doing?
Joachim
People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]
...because it showed that terrorists were ready to go "all in" to cause as much destruction as possible to America,
Absolute bullshit. There have been suicide bombers for decades. They had the will - all they lacked was the means. In 1972-ish, a guy planned to hijack a plane and crash it into the whitehouse. In the 80's there was a hijacking in france, planning to crash the plane into the eiffel tower. This was not something that nobody pre-911 had ever imagined before.
Simple airline security precautions are what we needed. Not my reading list.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Don't delude yourself for a moment about their motives. They, like the rest of the human race, were motivated by money.
What a bunch of crap. By the way, your High School called, they want your diploma back, because you obviously slept through your US History requirement.
You see, our founding fathers did this thing called "writing" and they communicated with eachother by means of vast volumes of mail, and in these communications, which are now historical documents, is contained a large amount of information on what these men thought, what they believed, and why they believed it. Any serious student of history knows for a fact that their driving philosophy of life was not "every man for himself, I've got my money, now you go get yours."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Sure, the wiser ones. But you could still find many people pooh-poohing the idea that terrorists would cause truly massive destruction. Not so much anymore. I'm just saying that this event is the most convincing evidence of the seriousness of the threat.
Simple airline security precautions are what we needed. Not my reading list.
Absolutely not your reading list. But not just "simple airline security" either. We need extensive security measures including better coordinated intelligence, vastly increased inspections at seaports, and carefully measured foreign policy carrots and sticks for rogue states.
It sounds like you're saying an attack needs to be carried out using a ballistic missile. Obviously, nobody's going to build one from a cave in Pakistan. But that's unfortunately not the case. Nightmare scenario: a terrorist cell obtains a nuclear weapon from a rogue state, or builds one themselves using enriched uranium and high explosives (the gun-type design used in the Hiroshima bomb is surprisingly easy to build). They then ship it to the United States by sea, relying on the fact that only 1% of incoming containers are currently inspected. They then transport it to the center of a city and detonate it, or if they're feeling lazy, just detonate it at the port.
> How is treating ordinary people like criminals going to solve your particular problem, just because they have a cold or flu and want over the counter medicine?
The parent post mischaracterizes the issue (the change is to sell previously off the shelf cold medicine over the counter). The inconvenience of getting non-prescription cold medicine OTC instead of off the shelf is inconsequential compared to the amount of good it does to stem 'smurfing' for home-lab production of meth. Getting cold medicine from a pharmacist isn't treating ordinary people like criminals. Your freedom is not being abridged. Warrantless wiretaps abridge your freedom (to freely associate and to be secure in your personal affects), buying cold medicine over the counter without a prescription doesn't. However, if you are against the control of all substances, then I guess your position is tenable (e.g.: Why shouldn't free citizens be able to make their own cold medicine at home?! How can possession of any chemical infringe the rights of others and therefore necessitate State intervention?!). This also goes for each sibling reply about how hard it is to get Sudafed. Give me a break.
Here's a great one-stop resource to get you started: Frontline episode about the meth epidemic.
Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
Basically, I have never seen a drug as bad as meth before. I have been around people using all kinds of drugs. I have done a few myself when I was younger.
I don't believe that any other drug is abused as widely, with as much negative consequences.
My default answer to the question is that you should be allowed to put whatever you want in your body if you choose to. What I have seen of meth is so bad that I am forced to reexamine that perspective and make an exception.
What's cool is, most of that aid is tied-aid, which means that it is dispursed on the condition that it will be spent in the ways we choose -- i.e., it is spent buying goods and services from American companies. It's hardly charitable in the normal sense of the word, or if it is charitable it isn't altruistic. Maybe it's not supposed to be -- PR costs money after all. I don't argue that one cannot do some secondary good while acting in one's own self-interest. We can get some good rep and win some hearts and minds, syphon deficit (tax money) into corporate profits (reinvested into our reelection) and at the same time a third world village gets a bridge, desal plant, highway or medicine (you can have aid, but not to buy Indian generics, only for authentic American/Brittish pharmaceuticals).
:-). Everybody does it though, so it's not just us looking for the kickbacks.
:-\
Anyhow, what tied-aid actually does for us, tax-payers, is shift our money to influential corporations via over-priced, non-local public projects in foriegn countries.
Often, tied-aid doesn't even pay for local labor (i.e., there isn't even trickle-down into the local economy, as even the aid-money to pay for labor is shipped back to a non-local economy
I don't claim to know whether we would be better off spending this money at home...
Just google for "tied-aid" if you'd like to learn more.
Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
> 2,986 * 365 = 1,089,890, or approximately 26 times the number of automotive fatalities.
Is it a reasonable assertion that a catastrophic terrorist attack could be executed every single day of every year? I'll tell you what does happen every single day of every year: millions of Americans drive to work. The DHSMV numbers for deaths on the road in 2005 exceed 3000 persons, in my state alone. I work for the DOT today. I work three 12-hour shifts a week. During every shift at least one persion gets killed in my district (3 counties in north east Florida). In fact, right now FHP is covering an accident involving two trauma flights (father and daughter with multiple dismemberments; they might live, but regardless we've already had a possible fatality tonight, and we're only halfway through the shift, we could still top 4 deaths tonight).
This is a long way to say, I agree: "The average person appears much more likely [...] to be killed in a car accident than be killed by a terrorist attack."
Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
Non authoritative update reference earlier post:
It wasn't a father/daughter, it was a couple. Man has leg damage but will keep both legs. Woman lost both legs at the knee, only one found. Couple's vehicle was struck by young female drunk driver. Ew.
Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
Don't have any evidence, except the record of the "people will vote with their pocketbook and patronize another company" self-regulation of the industries being given their head by this cowpoke. Ask the people of Port Chester if their skies are clear; oh- I know- they have cars, they can load up the truck and move to Beverly. I don't care if forests are healthy- that's a quantity issue. Where's your evidence that they're renewing faster than being felled? You don't know where you came from, and are messing with the kidneys of what we do with our water, like Uranium miners. Children have to do way, way better than 5 years ago. We have filed so many "solutions" in the Technology drawer that it would make future "Survivor" sets look like the Monty Python Building-Caravelle. And supplysider what if we have to wine and dine a privatized school advocate who's a little surly and after we swipe our card, the charge is declined? Will we finance our dispute from the Hollywood elite hocking their limousines? Wouldn't want our security depending on their reveries. Democrats can talk big because -big surprise- they're going to get a door held open so they can raise the tax rates. Maybe they do lie. I've been told they are lawyers and that lawyers lie. Yeah, I get enraged at my employee, but not so much more when getting the box back from the mechanic having stress risers laughed off by my dentist watching the drug-free military shoot like lives are at stake (which brings to mind Colleen Rowley) transfusing hepatitis blood into my working mother and giving the water miser throne the developer so thoughtfully shopped for a fifth try at vanishing my legacy. A Lynn Stuart may or may'nt been harmed by the patriot act; I don't think she's been whisked to Langley VA. But- wait that's not evidence -that's not fact. Let's call it a false opinion.Not an inoperative statement. And let's say ithe dialogue of the far-right mainstream implies that if I haven't seen the Magna Carta under glass, I haven't reason to beleive it ever existed. It could happen- other parts of the world are stuck in 600 A.D. right? I don't think Republicans are Nazis, not even Ashcroft. I'm alive because I was nurtured in a Republican state. The Patriot Act may be working, and, consensus existed in the psychiatric community that lobotomy worked. Does that numb the sensation of anything you'd not want there being on your back, or prevent you from hearing a knock on the door, or strangers rifling through your desk? Did you know I can show no evidence that chickens were running around the U.S.S.R. when they were liberating Poppyland? The Nazis are the folk who get dumped onto with all the side effects of unhappy kids. Will see the clouds wafting in on the ones it's spoiled for from the new "free" Afghanistan. And the clear-headed, supportive stroke of eminent domain for ethics in all their new hardware, and trading in an occasional beating the crap out of someone for a high-teck journey to reflexive psyche that the quads can get in on, (though maybe they would object to TASER's.) But this is all part of the fun because the long period of homogenous ex-military, good and bad, in enforcement not being embarassed anymore is probably helped by our making a name for ourselves -yes? We're stealing the show in history from one of the popes having more difficulty. If we applied the same actuarials to the environment as Sadaam then "the South would rise" out of the sunny state it's in and GOP Woolworth-Wigs like Trent Lott would be giving inches on the Gore platform. What kind of money is that radical Islam sect putting into weapons to smelt me? You can turn your back thinking I rightfully belong to a mob which is waiting for a machine to rectify the day in 2003 when the fissure appeared, or doing the touchdown dance that "use all the gas I dim well feel like" cars aren't returning better profits. But when we agree there aren't doovers, we'll clean up our killing and other deterrent methodologies (even the ones sickening friendlies,)and the world may again stand united with us and even within ourselves that may be.
Correct.
A self-sustaining object is a much larger target. Way more parts for them to bomb.
We need extensive security measures including better coordinated intelligence, vastly increased inspections at seaports, and carefully measured foreign policy carrots and sticks for rogue states.
. . . and better international banking rules and accounting standards, and transparency, to end all the illicit money laundering, drug and gun running.
Unfortunately, Bush and his family and their business partners would be pretty much against such an idea, which is why there's only been a token effort in this area.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Define "terrorist."
If I read Marx/Lenin/Trotsky, am I a terrorist?
If I read the Koran, am I a terrorist?
If I read Recipes for Disaster, am I a terrorist?
Where is the line drawn? How is it drawn?
The reason there are so many scared little pussies running around is that WW1 & WW2 was probably responsible for killing off the majority of the best genetic stock available.
There they are a conga line of suck holes. On the conservative side of Australian politics. - Mark Latham
Scared wimps indeed. Of course, some of my fellow Australians are not much better.
Amen, mate, amen.
There they are a conga line of suck holes. On the conservative side of Australian politics. - Mark Latham
but no one seems to mind the mass graves filled with women and children?
I always get annoyed when people talk about mass graves being justification for US imperial behaviour. What was it in SE Asia? wasn't it around 3,000,000 civilians killed by the US? Let's not forget the burying alive of surrendering Iraqi troops in Gulf War 1.
Remember all those mass graves Milosevic was accused of being responsible for? You might want to have a look and see what his charges currently are as the ones that were fed to the general public where just hyperbole.
Then again Saddaam is on trial and they are hassling him about 140-something people executed after a trial and the US is killing people left right and centre/ Let's not forget the 7000+ tortured and executed Sunni's who have gone through the Baghdad morgue in the last three months with all evidence pointing to death squads associated with the oil ministry (what a surprise that it's the oil ministry).
There they are a conga line of suck holes. On the conservative side of Australian politics. - Mark Latham
You're WRONG. The Patriot did NOT create this. The Secret Service Uniformed division was created in 1860. It is uniformed officers that protect the White House etc... Read a history here
I think this simply proves my point. Almost everybody who is posting all these crazy diatribes against the Patriot Act has NO FACTS and no clue what he/she is talking about.
We have a new police force, this for the homeland security department. They have the power to arrest and detain anyone seen as a threat to the United States of America. That's an awfull lot of power, don't you think?
There isn't a new police force.
You're wrong. And where in the bill does it say, "They have the power to arrest and detain anyone seen as a threat to the United States of America" ?????? Again, this is simply not true.
I don't mind people who disagree with me, but I can't stand people who are dishonest and don't have their facts right. Furthermore, slashdot moderators should do a better job and maybe take 10 seconds to check the accuracy of a post before they mod something to informative.
We have been in a war with the muslim/Arab culture for decades. Probably a lot longer than most people on this board have been alive. Recall it was in 1978 (28 years ago) the radical islamic Iranians seized the U.S.'s embassy and took U.S. citizens hostage. Shortly thereafter Ayatollah Khomeini returned returned from exile from our allie (not our friend) France. The patriot act is nothing more than a reaction to others using our laws against us. We are having to fight these poeple now because we have done for so long what many now advocate, do nothing. Sadly, history's lessons have been ignored. Pearl Harbor established that an ocean is no longer a barrier to outside aggression. We have learned our liberties are being abused by outsiders to attack us from within. "Those that appease the crocodile will simply be eaten last" -Winston Churchill
This just in: Republicans Continue Search for Remaining Civil Liberties, Democrats Continue Search For Backbone
Now I would have preferred not having him here, or at least not in the middle of town.
On a side note there is an annual street race here that disrupts traffic for about a week. At least that is an event that people can go to.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
Shame on you for letting him in your country in the first place, and shame again for letting him leave once you had him.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
It's up to the government to draw that line, based on the data it gathers.
If they find 98% of the people who read "Recipes for Disaster" go out, build bombs and kill people, then yes, reading it should be treated on par with "owning burglary tools," which happens to be a crime.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Also, the attacks in Madrid and London happened while the Patriot Act was in full force (and the illegal wiretapping was already going on). How come they were not prevented?
Oh! Oh! I know! I know!... because Spain and England aren't subject to US legislation yet?!
Warning, comments may not have been passed by the sanity department of my brain.
I wonder what Marvel: Civil War is going to say about all this! This really is ridiculous and disturbing. Haven't we already learned what happens when you take away too many civil liberties for the sake of paranoia? What's the point of fighting terrorists who want to take away your freedoms when they're managing it enough by themselves? Don't like having competition?
EpiAdv - if you like Pokey the Penguin, try this comic!