Slashdot Mirror
Lenovo To Shun Linux
dominique_cimafranca writes "CRN reports that Lenovo will not install or support the Linux operating system on any of its PCs. Lenovo is positioning itself as an exclusive partner of Microsoft, several weeks after the companies announced they were 'reaffirming' global market development and cooperation agreements." From the article: "A Lenovo spokesman later said the non-Linux strategy is also applicable for the company's Thinkpad brand of notebooks, although Lenovo will provide advice to customers who insist on deploying desktop Linux systems in some fashion. While Lenovo and Microsoft have had a long OEM relationship that pre-dates Lenovo's takeover last year of the former IBM PC Co., IBM had been supportive of Linux throughout its product line -- including preloading it on Thinkpads -- before the sale to Lenovo."
Well, we all knew that the Lenovo branding would eventually lead to bad thigns happening. The T60 is good, the no-linux is bad.
Bottles.
The x60s looked nice. What laptop should I buy now?
After all that work I spent getting linux drivers to compile on an X31 with Slackware and now Lenova won't support it in future models? It's a step backwards...
fp?
They'll come crawling back to us when Vista turns out to be a flop.
...broiled-crispy Cthulhu on a trampoline biscuit!@
WHAT THE FUCK LENOVO?
Hmmmm, Lenovo ditching Linux and partnering solely with Microsoft? ...Microsoft being full of security holes... oh look, the US gov't predicted this: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/22/04 36250. Of course, now I see! If they're going to bug PC's, it would be easiest to do through Windows... those crafty Chinese!
Really though... why are they doing this? Seems like they would lose a decent amount of customers considering they're not sold to no-speaky-tech people at Walmart/Circuit City... isn't Linux gaining market share?... Seems to me if a market is growing, you should capitalize on it rather than shun it.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Lenovo shunning Linux? Good -- there's no way they can match the IBM ThinkPad team for design anyway, so it's not like I was ever going to buy their junky imitations. A black MacBook will run my Linux just fine, though.
"My heart is in the work." - Andrew Carnegie
They have missed a big opportunity. They could have used this juncture to become a leading Linux supplier for the corporate desktop and server market. Instead, they're just handing more and more control over their business to Microsoft.
And if they think they can always do that later, they're kidding themselves. People already don't trust their brand name and their ability to innovate, and shipping beige boxes to Microsoft specs is going to damage their brand even more.
Linux like UNIX's in general (including *BSD) aren't, sad to say, in great demand by typical end users; if it isn't the hardware support issue, it'll be an issue of ISV's that provide their software on Linux.
Some see this as "Microsoft strong arming", but Lenovo is simply asking, "where is the biggest market", and the biggest market is for machines loaded with Windows, and laden with software ontop.
Is this a set back for Linux on the desktop (on any other UNIX), not really; given that the largest is Dell - who quite frankly, couldn't care less what is loaded onto their machines; start to worry when Dell snubs other operating systems.
Also, lets remember that 40% of the computers shipped today are from small 'white box', local computer stores not the large mega corporations.
Ultimately, however, the ball is in Linux's court; opensource is getting there; it just depends on how patient people are; if they're willing to wait (like me), in a few years time, you'll start to see commercial feature rich software opensource software with in the next couple of years - lets remember, the rate at which features are being added to commercial software is decreasing, companies ( Microsoft namely) have reached a point of diminishing returns - every new feature they're adding, is yielding less and less enthusiasm from the 'geek crowd' and their main customer base.
Its just a matter of time; personally, its going to be the commercial companies who will suffer, they either make the port of their software to alternative operating systems, and gain customer loyalty, or shun these platforms, resulting in opensource software becoming the equal and defacto standard on said platforms.
Yes, although this is slightly off topic, in the end it all ties back to *NIX/*BSD on the desktop, customer demand, and how that customer demand is derived from whether the operating system can provide the same level of software which they need at home, at the office or on the road.
They are really desperate to fit into the US market so they say "Hey, It's MS or nothing". If they really want to fit in they need to change their brand name.
However, if you force everyone to take the wine, some of them throw it on the floor and fill the glass up with water.
They're the Linux users; the freedom-loving kinds.
The article doesn't say that they are entering into a permenant relationship with Microsoft. All you have is "What you see is what you get. And at this point, it's Windows." And that doesn't mean much. Maybe they will go with BSD instead?
Philosophy.
OBEY
but I agree. Vista has *not* impressed me so far. xgl is just as impressive (or at least, just as useful) as Aero Glass, and with Dapper being as gorgeous and capable as it is...
By the time Vista comes out, Edgy will have been released. I'm seriously considering thoroughly forsaking Microsoft when Vista rolls around.
+++ATH0
...about to buy a new notebook with a budget of $2000+ - either Core Duo or Turion 64 X2 Mobile (I'm awaiting benchmarks on the latter).
Even if I personally am unfamiliar with (and don't use) Linux, I believe in competition. Hence I won't be buying a Lenovo, or any other brand that refuses to support Linux.
Somewhere in Microsoft H.Q., all the chairs are breathing a sigh of relief.
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
They don't have to support Linux, I don't remember other vendors really supporting Linux. It will just work as on other hardware...
Pixel image editor - http://www.kanzelsberger.com
Or if they want to keep selling in China (which, despite trying hard to wave american flags, is still a big market for them).
Chinese Government says all new PCs must be Linux-friendly
My guess is that this move is basically Microsoft bribing the right officials in Lenovo. A few dollars from China to bug their systems, a few from Microsoft's monopoly-power-abuse-team and pretty soon your talking real money.
Linux users will shun Lenovo.
rehdon
soo... i get that i can't buy a thinkpad w/ linux on it.
... does it mean it will just take longer for the linux commuity to get the new thinkpads working w/ linux??
but i'm not entirely sure what IBM was doing before for Linux in general
does this annoucement mean it will be harder/not possible to to get my new thinkpad working correctly with various linux distro's
i.e. was ibm actively contributing to Linux to help ensure their (ibm) hardware worked w/ linux...or were they just saying...yeah we like linux..and if you want will sell you thinkpads w/ linux loaded.
thanx
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
Of course this would happen. Lenovo is trying to cut to costs as much as possible. IBM as a brand can for double what Dell sells for, but Lenovo can't. One big way to cut the price, is to make the deal with MS. Cut out Linux support and Windows is suddenly much cheaper....
Am i asleep? I have missed completely! IBM taken over by Lenovo.. Who?
Never heard of Lenovo, and never heard of IBM being taken over! That's really a shame...
What's happening in this world?
Hopefully they atleast supply Ubuntu or some other linux distro installation media with their laptops in the future or something like that, for atleast a little while.
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
My 2c as a Thinkpad owner (T43:IBM & now a T60:Lenovo)
Hardware: T60 sucks. Latch is loose when it came, "extended" battery doesn't fit snugly into the slot.
Its not defective.. its just like how the Dell's and others used to be a few years ago.
Their quality has gone up and the Lenovo has sunk to new depths. Note its not cheap. Its 2-300 above a similar Dell/Toshiba. Summary: They lost all my future business.
Linux (Fedora,RHEL,Suse,Gentoo),Solaris on intel,FreeBSD: T43 no sweat
Havn't bothered with Lin/Sol/BSD on the T60 as yet. Have thought a couple of times about just returning this.
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
I used to work for IBM supporting other IBM employees. We certainly had users who ran Linux on Netvistas, Thinkpads, etc. or who ran AIX. You have to wonder what IBM's feelings are on this - after all, IBM has helped to push Linux out the door in the past. They've offered the OS as an installation option so that you boot into Linux fresh out of the box. They also offer support to clients running Linux - typically on IBM hardware.
They've also done substantial work developing a href="http://linux390.marist.edu">S/390 Linux [linux390.marist.edu] in partnership with Marist College. S/390 Linux runs on IBM mainframe systems and allows clients to connect to their own Linux "workstation" hosted off the mainframe (think VMWare - but now instead of running an additional workstation in a window on your own machine, you're running an additional workstation on your own machine but all the processing power and resource utilization is hosted on an OS390 mainframe).
There are a multitude of other places where one can see IBM's support, endorsement, and development of Linux. The big question is where is IBM getting its hardware for its own employees these days? If there's an agreement with Lenovo to purchase PCs from them, I would imagine that this decision will create some serious support problems. It's one thing to have technicians working on laptops that have been designed in house. When the specifications you're working with are open to the communities you serve, you're far more able to create workarounds to specific problems or resolve recurring issues between hardware and OS. If Lenovo is now designing their machines with a commitment to exclusive Windows compatibility, how will this affect the very business that sold the Thinkpad/Netvista etc. names to Lenovo in the first place? What kinds of kinks does this throw into continued IBM development and endorsement of Linux?
Anyone who has actually dealt with the New Brave Chinese Economy knows fine well that its basically irrational, and not to put to fine a point on it: racist. So it's made it's business decision to ignore a small, growing market and go with the dominant worldwide brand. That's fine. It's made a brave corporate decision. We'll just see some of its customer base inherited from IBM go somewhere else. Especially as its not trying to reassure its customers that it wants what its customers want. I won't be buying Lenovo and nor will I recommend buying them to anyone else.
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
When bullshit advertising control a companies product portfolio, you get...
1) the $100 laptop (after 10 coupons and mfg refunds are applied within a narrow amount of time,
2) that bloat of crap-software bundled with hardware that already interoperated with available TWAIN or filesystem tools interacted with choice client,
3) advertisement stickers and related commercial speach, making absurd claims that said marketdroid-construed feature is only available on pre-installed host configuration,
4) bundled software that was optioned for return, and no refund received despite its resale value was then doubled as to counterfeit title to a claim on said software (sell twice),
without prejudice
okay, i understand "will not install linux on their computers .. so the "capitalists" are (still) a bit stupid. maybe .. aas near as possible to point-and-click ... *shrug* ... i propose "all your driver belong to us". .... ...
... really really really
but i don't understand "won't support linux on their laptops".
freaking redicilous!
so we got the 100 dollar laptop. seems like everybody and their
mom wants one.
hmmm
the "communist" linux camp can once again save the day:
how about a open-source driver development environment for those
"dirty" capitalists
for a linux hardware driver? like hmmm one module with what u call that
"hooks" into the kernel (see version) and another module which interfaces
with the physical blueprint of the circuitry. so "they" can just scan the
circuit layout, select which kernel and voila a driver
this last "Step" should really bring world dominance
BUT, everything has two sides, so gone would be days of the
linux hacker in basement giving to the world those lines of code that
will enable XYZ hardware to work with linux -fame
*sigh*
someone please explain the DRAWBACK of supporting linux or
the GAIN from not supporting it? is it like
really really expensive to do so?
Dude, you're getting a Dell!
s html?tid=147&tid=184
Dell launches Mandriva line:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/09/17/1539212.
What will be intresting if Dell launches a Ubuntu line, as the main guy there said he likes Ubuntu
If you can remove yoruself from the emotional aspect of this, then look at it from their perspective most of their customers (90%+) are using one operarting system vendor.
If that vendor wants to sweeten the deal or play hard ball behind the scenes it could make their life hell. Now that Lenovo is based in china, who knows what m$ can twist behind the scenes.
Originally, there seemed to be a some potential between open source (which I see as a free market force) and communism. This could have been a great bridge between cultures. But, China has been courting the big-business economics of the free World, and Microsoft has been combating the wide-spread pirating in the East. Conspirists would probably fear a creepy deal between China and the illegal monopoly of imperialistic capatalism (M$). Could this Lenovo deal be a part of that? Some have complained of Corporate Socialism in the U.S. Could this be the birth of Corporate Communism? And, will China compromise its standards for intellectual works and submit to Microsoft's DRM?
{ return clarity; }
They go off and advertise on /. then they tell everyone that they arnet supporting linux? obviously the marketing dept doesnt speak to the support dept very often at lenovo...
Unlike IBM, Lenovo doesn't compete with Microsoft on the software end of things, so they don't need to use their hardware to push other products. Also, they want to differentiate their package from the Apple+OS X solution in the high-end laptop market, now that they're both Intel.
A shame, though -- AFAIK, Thinkpads continue to be sturdy, functional, elegant machines under Lenovo.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/200 6/06/03/2003311446
-There is no sig.
need I say more?
I have made a corporate decision: there will be no purchases of anything with the Lenovo brand on it.
All my corporate services run on Linux. I have no corporate need of any non-Linux infrastructure. Lenovo has just lost any possible corporate spending on their laptops.
Got a wallet?
Vote with it!
RHCE; are you certified? Karma: ambiguous.
Lenovo isn't evil, just not very smart when it comes to end-users.
MS is not the only OS out there, and the days are numbered for people who only want to OEM with one brand of OS. Sure, windows will have lots of people buying new pc's and laptops etc. but they will also be the people who don't know if the pc is bad, or there is a virus, or there is an OS problem.
As the Linux out-of-the-box experience improves, it will become more clear why only supporting one OS as OEM product is really not the right move. Then again, Lenovo wants to ship lots of new hardware and not support anything really. Linux doesn't really require new hardware to support the new desktop UI etc.
This also means that MS will send them a monthly check with a few dollars for every PC / Laptop shipped. Perhaps the anti-piracy crowd got to some of the board members at Lenovo?
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
Well I was going to buy another Thinkpad because I've always been impressed with the earlier ones and really impressed with the X series.
Is there any other laptop out there as good? (And doesn't have those horrible pad mouse things?
and there i was, hoping to buy a lenovo next month...
"..."
After paying Microsoft for the Windows XP that they delete.
Seriously, this is the real problem. As long as Microsoft gets paid for Windows on every PC shipped, regardless of whether that PC will actually run Windows or not, Microsoft wins. It will use the money that you paid it to, among other things, buy more anti-Linux "studies".
That's one of the reasons that the Lenovo decision is a genuine victory for Microsoft and a real defeat for Linux. Let's face the facts and not pretend otherwise.
A) The URL to let Lenovo know they'll lose your business, if like me, you're a longtime Linux Thinkpad user.
B) A request to Slashdot users for laptop alternatives that are Linux friendly. My T43 has bluetooth, built-in wireless, cpufreq scaling, the hd motion detector, the fingerprint scanner -- i.e., everything -- working great under Linux, with little to no hassle on my part. Have others had similar good experiences with other non-ibm/lenovo laptops? I'll be needing to find another company to give $2000 or so every couple of years.
I do not see how Lenovo, or any computer seller could possibly support Linux the way it is done with Windows: these companies do not manufacture all of the computers themselves. They assemble components from other hardware vendors. The problem is - there is no stable, working way how these hardware components are supported. Hardware vendors do not provide opensource drivers and Linux does not want closed-source drivers. If 3rd parties provide opensource drivers they often are buggy and lag behind current hardware.
But in order for a computer seller to "support" Linux, these things should just work at least to some acceptable degree. Which is not the case really.
Do you know of any other laptop where *all* hardware components work under Linux as they are supposed to?
As long as Linux will continue its "opensource only" policy for drivers, this situation will continue. Simply because Linux does not have the market power to enforce anything (as MS does have). It is quite easy for harware manufacturers to simply ignore Linux. Developing good drivers for Linux would cost more money than they would gain by additional sells.
As somebody who uses Linux 100% of the time, I am not happy about this, but unfortunately, these are the sad facts. Given the current move of Linux advocates against closed source drivers and DRM the situation will get worse in the future. I do not see how it will be possible to play HD/BR-DVDs on a Linux machine or how to handle encrypted HDTV signals.
Unless there is a drastic change of who Linux is getting developed the gap between Linux and Windows will widen -- no matter how crappy, buggy, or insecure Vista will turn out to be (probably not that much, given the effort that was invested in it).
Am I the only one who thinks that newer IBM / Lenovo laptops are just pieces of crap?
Company I'm working for has a contract with IBM and we are using an IBM hardware. I have an R50 laptop and last week I had a chance to try some X series laptops. I have heard that the T series are (were?) a good laptop brand, but I have no experience of them (I've heard that the T series, T42 to be more specific, is quite a nice machine for Linux). Anyway, my R50 - and every other R50 I have dealed with - is just a huge pile of crap. And now the light-weight X series seems to be following the footsteps of the R series. The thing is, both models are, as far as I know, provided by the Lenovo factories.
Oh, and the legendary "black IBM design" with well-finished product quality (case and components) is just a joke. Pieces are not fit together well enough and the finishing touch is just missing. Also, the assembly of the LCD screen is just terrible. Every time, I open the laptop lid, it feels like the CD drive and the lid would come off in any minute.
The worst thing is that most reviewers have been giving absolutely glorious reviews for the R50 series laptops. But maybe drug-abusing is common trait in the laptop-reviewer-circles.
As the current owner of an X31 and four staff to buy laptops for, I think it is a bit stupid of Lenevo to do what they have done.
I prejudice company purchase by the level of linux support first then toughness and size second (we like small and light but tough).
Truth be told though, my staff are Chinese and would not touch the Lenovo brand with a barge pole. To them, it seems like Skoda just bought Rolls Royce and they don't think the future has the word 'quality' anywhere in it for thinkpads.
So I would say from what I'm seeing, Thinkpads were a good brand and Lenovo just wasted a ton of dollars.
If they can't sell any PCs in China they'll definitely need that US market ... http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/200 6/06/03/2003311446
OK, so what's the Chinese government's stand on Lenovo then?
Are the Chinese developing their own chips in order to develop their own PCs?
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
I personally own a Thinkpad T41 I purchased in 2004 and posted here about they way the socket of it's powersupply came off this last christmas and what a hassle I had to go through to get that fixed. Now a couple of days ago I talked to a friend of mine (who I had recommend a T41 myself for shame) and he told me his plug had come loose too. If you ask me quality took a nose-dive down even before IBM sold to Lenovo probably in the full knowledge that quality was bound to deteriorate even further so why bother. A product built using cheap labor is one thing as most electronics nowadays are but using even cheaper parts manufactured in the chinese forced labor camps are another. I will not buy anything from Lenovo, ever. I want a rugged notebook that doesn't come apart, whose screen stays up (and doesn't have to fixed with tape like I saw one of my colleagues to with his Fujitsu Siemens) even after a year of use, the powersocket of which doesn't come loose and so forth? Who makes notebooks like that, today?
Lenovo moves to install only Microsoft operating systems on their computers. When asked why, a Lenovo spokesman said "We needed to do something that would really set apart from the rest of the herd".
My 2 cents (Off-Topic kinda): Apple makes the best laptop (Powerbook, Macbook). Linux and BSD's are for servers. True, i use FreeBSD on my work PC, but my window manager is Fluxbox and I normally use it for utilitarian tasks. Why is there so much energy spent on perfecting Linux for the desktop? Get a fucking Mac, your life will be easier. No more wasted time making things work under inopportune conditions.
As a decision maker for this kind of purchase for my company, I feel I now have to wait to evaluate Vista before I can buy into one, the other, or both.
Lenovo was a couple of drivers shy of abstracting themselves from the coming mess. Now I am compelled to wait on my purchases.
Seems like the only way to get a laptop that is built to run Linux on is to build one yourself...
A computer is a tool, but I am not. I use Linux
...if I want a laptop that runs a modern linux (say, Ubuntu 6.06) with all the goodies working - suspend and hibernate, wireless networking, power management, external video - without having to compile a new (often patched) kernel like I've had to in the past?
Do any laptop manufacturers supoprt linux now?
I guess its back to trawling www.tuxmobile.org....
Could it be the fact they don't have or want to set aside resources to support Linux. I mean, for those that want Linux, it's easy enough for them to install it. For those that don't, then they don't have to worry about supporting them. I think what the optimal solution is to be able to buy ThinkPads w/o any OS on it.
I mean, by allowing users to buy ThinkPads with Linux on it means if there's any problem, they'll have to support it (need it be drivers, or applications, or something that just doesn't work). IBM has a big linux support team, though Lenovo (a traditionally Windows laptop manufacturer) may not.
I'm curious if anyone knows the laptops that Dell sells with Redhat preloaded has any type of support. If I remember correctly, the support came directly from Redhat (not sure if Dell has to pay Redhat anything for this).
Anyway, my point here isn't that option isn't nice and Lenovo can even put a clause out there stating they won't trouble Linux, but in turn what happens if a buyer choses Linux because it saves him $100, and it turns out he's having problems up the gazoo. In that situation, Lenovo can only suggest the buyer to search for help online, find support through the OS company, or purchase Windows, none of which would make the customer happy.
HD Trailers
I guess they think there won't be enough customers who would prefer using Linux. May be they feel that the system requirements for vista would force people to purchase new models?
I think it would be good for distributions to start recommending hardware manufacturers. Imagine Red Hat and Novell recommending HP over Dell, Nvidia over ATI for example. That might give a push to hardware manufacturers to better support Linux.
Remember the year 2000? They promised us flying cars. They delivered the PT Cruiser...
Is there any other laptop out there as good? (And doesn't have those horrible pad mouse things?
:-)
I have a proper IBM ThinkPad, and like yourself, I've always liked them. And I will not buy anything that doesn't run Linux, period.
However, when I upgraded my laptop just over a year ago, it was to a Toshiba Tecra M4, because it beat Lenovo ThinkPad hands down in MANY areas: cost (only 1000 UK Pounds, astounding for the specs!), 3D graphics (nVidia 6200 Go), display resolution (1400x1050), all-integrated comms (Wifi, Bluetooth, PSTN modem, gigabit ethernet), multiple storage built in (hard disk, CD/DVD, SD card, and PCMCIA slot for microdrive) and it's a sexy laptop-tablet convertible (use it in either mode, as the display swivels).
Of course it supports Linux beautifully too, everything works.
Unfortunately, it does have a mouse touchpad (but you don't have to use it of course), as well as a ThinkPad-style nipple, plus USB slots if you want an external mouse, all of which can be used to move the mouse pointer at the same time.
I should mention the downsides of the Tecra M4 too: it's very heavy despite being quite slim, and it sucks power like there's no tomorrow. If you can live with those bad points, I strongly recommend it as a ThinkPad "upgrade".
Oh, there's also a 3rd downside: Toshiba "customer service" ranges from non-existent through incompetent to pure customer-hatred. Worth mentioning, in case that matters to you.
When this publication attemted to ask the spoaksperson further questions on this subject he seemed to have trouble breathing and promply sufficated. No further spoakspeople issued statesment.
A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
... I was waiting for you to start shipping 64-bit notebooks so I could buy a new Thinkpad, now I don't need to wait for you anymore. Incidentally, I'm a consultant and influence buying decisions in quite a few companies, so you can rest assured you have lost quite a few sales here, both in the desktop and notebook categories.
BTW, I'm shopping for a notebook with 1) decent Linux support, 2) a trackpoint/pointstick, and 3) a 64-bit amd64-compatible processor, in that order. So far the only three manufacturers I've found with trackpoint/pointstick offerings are Dell, HP and Toshiba; HP is the only one with 64-bit notebooks but so far they have not produced a notebook with both a 64-bit processor and a trackpoint/pointstick; Dell and Toshiba seem not to have any 64-bit offerings at all.
Can anyone recommend an alternative?
Best Regards,
Durval Menezes.
I have never met a computer that didn't like me.
I just installed dapper, and wasted the last 5 hours of my life on it. Let's try to do something simple, which I could do back in Windows _98SE_ in 1 minute: make my 2005fpw 20" lcd my primary monitor, and my t43's sxga+ screen a secondary monitor. In windows, this takes three-five clicks. Display Properties, enable secondary monitor, drag the secondary monitor to the position you'd like, set its resolution. Done. What's more, if you undock the laptop, windows will automatically detect the change, and revert you back down to only the LCD. Dock it back in, and the windows will shift back onto the primary LCD, with space on the secondary display. No logout/login or shutdown needed. Everything just WORKS automagically. Contrast this with Dapper (and FC5; I tried that too). 5 hours after playing with fglrx, and ati+mergedFB and i STILL could not get a correct dual-head setup. In any case, you shouldn't have to muck with a textfile to do something as simple as lighting up two displays at a time. This is 2006, for crying out loud. What's more, even if I COULD get the dual-display working, you can't even use 2 monitors in Linux with hot docking. "But it's as simple as startx --serverlayout_that_you_want!" No, I don't want to fucking close all my apps and restart my X server EVERY SINGLE TIME I dock or undock my laptop. That is not an acceptable solution. I'm not going to even bother talking about how Dapper mucked up /etc/fstab because I installed with an external USB drive attached.
I'll stick to just ssh'ing into our linux cluster when I need linux tools. (Which is often, actually--perhaps that tells you how much I cannot stand Linux on the desktop.) I love the shell, but don't delude yourself into thinking Linux is "ready for the desktop". When you want to configure a GUI like X, you should be able to use the damn GUI to configure it. Apparently, those working on Linux distributions don't get this. I'll stick with Windows and Mac for my desktop until they do.
This makes me think...
Lenovo is a company and companies want to make profits.
However small Linux sales were, if they stop Linux sales, they will lose business. If they made a profit on Linux sales, they even lose profit by cutting their Linux offer. They will also lose investments they made.
Companies generally don't want to lose business or profit.
So, why did they do it?
MS offered them a deal. Since IBM is a big player, this deal will have cost MS some money.
So I think this proves MS is at least scared enough of Linux to buy off the possible competition.
First of all, Lenovo is not IBM; IBM was shipping Linux.
However small Linux sales were, if they stop Linux sales, they will lose business.
Well, that's not always the case. Shipping or tolerating Linux costs them some money: marketing, support calls, more difficult deals with proprietary hardware vendors. Still, I think all things being equal, Linux is already popular enough so that those costs would have more than been compensated by the sales.
So, I agree that Microsoft probably pushed them with both a carrot (lower Windows licensing costs) and a stick (Microsoft has lots of sticks).
And, yes, Microsoft is clearly scared (as they should be).
As it happens, I purchased a HP nx8220 notebook recently that works pretty much as I want it to - it had XP Pro pre-installed but that was okay because I wanted some mobile gaming capability and I dual boot it with Gentoo Linux where just about all the hardware works (with a bit of tweaking).
Personally, the Lenovo issue is minor - Linux is ready for the "desktop" provided you choose your hardware relatively carefully and are prepared to devote some time to configuring it yourself. However, if you're nothing more than a "fad follower", you shouldn't be using Linux, full stop.
People seem to forget the reasons for using Linux - don't go near it if you want fully compatibility with Windows and commercial games-playing & if you've got no need to embrace the true power of an operating system through scripting & programming at the command line, then you should stay away from Linux.
Far too many people today are verbally anti-Microsoft yet are unwilling to turn those words into actions by investing time learning alternative operating systems to become less dependent on Windows.
Anyone who uses Linux for the "cool" factor alone is a fool - Linux is an amazing environment to work in for flexibility and usability provided that you spend time learning how to embrace its power properly.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
OK, so this is sure to be an unpopular post, but does it matter as much these days if you don't have linux support from the hardware manufacturer? In the ideal world, of course it does. In reality you can install VMWare or VirtualPC and run as many Linux distros as you like on your Windows box. For a start the virtual machines emulate older hardware so Linux is virtually guaranteed to run with the drivers it ships with, and with all the new virtualization technologies and multi-core processors the performance hit should not be huge. So it's not the perfect solution, and it won't play Quake at 200fps, but it'll run all your desktop apps and dev environments.
;)
Maybe you wouldn't trust a solution like this to run a public webserver, for example, but then who does that from a laptop anyway?
You may now mod down
For servers and workstations, you can go with companies like Penguin Computing (there are many more of them) that put together machines out of Linux-compatible components, integrate it, preinstall everything, and ship it.
For laptops, there are actually plenty of Linux compatible laptops, but there is no single recognizable brand that is consistently Linux compatible, making the problem one of selection, not availability. Fortunately, a number of companies like Emperor Linux do the legwork for you.
With hardware virtualization on the new Intel mobile chips, using Windows or OS X as a "bootstrap loader and device driver" for Linux is another reasonable choice. That way, you get all the goodness of a Linux desktop environment on your hardware, but installation is trivial and you can strip down the host OS to its bare minimum.
However, if you force everyone to take the wine, some of them throw it on the floor
But what I want to know is... who's gonna clean this mess???
First of all, Lenovo is not IBM; IBM was shipping Linux
The story sort of implies that, but IBM wasn't shipping Linux on its desktops.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Thanks for the warning, i now wont be purchasing any of your products in the future, i hope a Lenovo executive reads /. today
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
OS X gives you basically just one theme (well, there are third party hacks, but I have found them to be pretty unpredictable), plus the option of enabling a few gimmicks in the GUI. And architecturally, a lot of that stuff happens by special-purpose functionality.
The combination of Gnome, KDE, and X11 in (K)Ubuntu already gives you a choice of dozens of well-designed themes each, in addition to having implemented nearly all the special effects that OS X has.
But that's just the beginning, because the Xgl architecture makes it much easier to implement new visual GUI technologies. People have already demonstrated far more sophisticated and complex GUI techniques and visual styles than anything shown by Apple.
They don't have reasons to support Linux, IBM had them, Lenovo doesn't.
We know Microsoft makes a big issue if a company they have a deal with ships also Linux units.
Hence, it's less pain, more profit and less tech support issues to just ship exclusively Windows units.
WHilst alot of corporations use Windows thru and thru on IBM/Lenvo laptops they do like the option of linux. Now given they now have this option being removed from them in a assured way that they can get linux and support the hardware fully to a usable extent then they will probably end up buying something else so they have the linux option back. WHilst they will carry on running windows, there will be a few who willl run linux and as a corporate buying policey - flexabiulity, longevaty and support are important factors. So even though they wont as a whole run linux they will not take kindly to this.
Upshot alot of corportations will now stongly review there laptop vendor buying policy, some may even have support for linux written into them and this is were the fun will begin.
This is not a problem with X11 or Ubuntu. X11 has excellent multi-monitor support, and excellent support for changing resolutions on the fly. The reason why you can't do it with your hardware is because your vendor didn't supply a driver for Linux. There is nothing anybody other than the vendor can do about this.
Now, I'll give you this much: Gnome still lacks a good GUI for configuring multiple monitors. The reason it's not there yet is probably because there hasn't been a big need for it in the past: most vendors didn't make drivers available, and the few people for whom this mattered spent the 30 minutes to figure it out.
When you want to configure a GUI like X, you should be able to use the damn GUI to configure it. Apparently, those working on Linux distributions don't get this.
You're confused because you apparently have only seen Windows pre-installed. Installing it by hand is a major undertaking that involves significant text-mode interactions.
Conversely, if you install SuSE, or install Ubuntu from a Live CD, your entire installation process will take place in a graphical environment. Furthermore, almost all X11 server changes can be carried out on the fly these days.
Just one more reason not to buy.
Then along comes some Fortune 100 and says we are deploying Linux desktops, Lenovo is in the mix and then they drop to the knees in the face of a multi-million dollar contract, and proceed to lick arse.
They _WILL_ support Linux if the price is right.
BTW, this really is meaningless anyway. Lenono and IBM have never supported OpenBSD, yet the OpenBSD crew love their Thinkpads. My girlfriends Z60s is really nice and runs FreeBSD CLI nicely. I've not tried any more than that, since I only have a very small FreeBSD 6.1 partition on my gf's Thinkpad for whole drive imaging to work easiest on my network at home.
I think the lack of support and fear of being able to support their own products, might come down to nVidia, ATI and Intel video cards. If they are slow at providing docs or drivers for Linux, then Lenovo will be shit out of luck to support. If the price is right they'll change chipsets.
I've been looking into getting a laptop for uni recently. I've been leaning towards a thinkpad, because I love the TrackPoint (I once owned an old ThinkPad... a very old one). But now, screw them.
Does any other brand of laptop have this feature?
I guess this solves a problem for me. I have a Thinkpad from a few years back that I have had some wonderful experiences with. It's been a truly wonderful machine. But I'm not in the market for a new machine within the next year.
But their decision to explicitly not support Linux, which is a not what IBM was doing when I purchased the notebook, has simplified the process. While I am not going to require that a notebook manufacturer sell Linux installed I do appreciate if a company provides even tacit support for my favorite operating system. This decision of theirs negates any past experience I have had with them.
Of course now I'm starting to watch the MAC OSX with interest. Which muddies things up a bit. But either way, I can exercise my position that anyone who is going to partner with a company that I don't care to support. Kind of like Dolphin free Tuna.
Yes, it's so obvious when you say it like that. Matter of fact is that I'm sitting with a frickin' has-been expensive ATI card and have to live with that the driver sometimes just don't load because of some bug in it.
Having had Gentoo, Ubuntu or whatever that is your flavor recommend you hardware companies I would have been able to choose wisely (Nvidia).
Now.. how to get the distros to do this. Do they read Slashdot?
Fight for your digital freedom, join the EFF *now*: http://www.eff.org/support/
I think youve hit the nail on the head. By doing this the hardware manufacturers could endorse those who openly supports Linux. At the same time it would highlight those who choose to not. Just like the printer recommendations on linuxprinting.org
HTTP/1.1 400
Or at least prevent people from buying turds.
ATI i am looking at you, althout the image is corrupted by buggy drivers.
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
Ok, so the ex-IBM stuff is now 'bad'. Sony, with its support for MPAA/RIAA, bad. HP, back in the NT days officially said that "UNIX was dead, and they'd end support for UNIX".
So who SHOULD be a 'provider of choice' when it comes to buying a laptop? Panasonic toughbooks? Something else? (Apple is out - the jerking around of the customer base is why)
Linux Users to Shun Lenovo, resulting in record losses for Lenovo's bottom line.
When i bought my Thinkpad T40p, the main argument was the perfect support of Linux. I will not buy a Lenovo Thinkpad if this policy continue...
Maybe it's in retaliation for the US Goverment saying Lenova was a security threat because it is made in China. Maybe they think if they put a "secure" operating system on their computers the US will believe they really are secure.
Of course the problem is, assuming there wasn't a security problem before, there will be now.
I guess that would make Microsoft Windows the communist operating system and not Linux.
This is actually quite telling. I'm living in Beijing at the moment. On a quick trip to one of the many electronics markets, I can find hundreds upon hundreds of Lenova PCs available for purchase--not one of them running a legitimate copy of Windows. Logically, one might think that the way for Lenova to buddy up to Microsoft and "affirm global cooperation" would be to crack down on piracy of MS software in their home market. Au contraire, it appears, what really pleases MS is not the purchase of Windows (they don't care if you steal it, so long as you use it) but rather the non-use of a competing product.
Funny thing too... ATI's 2D/3D Linux drivers are absolutely amazing on my Thinkpad T42p here. They work solidly and I'm getting ~2,000fps in 1600x1200@24bpp on this laptop. Their setup tool builds packages for Ubuntu, Red Hat, SuSE and others right from the installer itself, including for Debian Unstable, Ubuntu Dapper and other "less-than-stable" distributions.
All I see and hear are complaints about NVidia's drivers, compatibility and installation problems.
Yes, ATI isn't one of the good guys because they're doing this as binary drivers, but they are certainly allowed to do so, since they have their own IP to protect. They are, however, one of the good guys in my opinion because they are extending an arm into the Linux community to help improve and support their cards and drivers under Linux, natively.
So does any one know where the money came from that Lenovo used to purchace the PC division. Yes it could have come from the Chimeese gov. but where did they get it. Is this not Microsoft moving onto hardware in a big way and doing it via China to get out from under the Justice Dept.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Why did Lenovo ever commit to linux in the first place? Do you think they believe in ideals of freedom? No, they are a business, and they lust for profit. Linux *doesn't* pay, Microsoft does. No, the reason Lenovo *threatened* to supply linux PCs is as a bargaining tool against Microsoft, to lever themselves into better substudies.
The wise are not learned; the learned are not wise
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
However small Linux sales were, if they stop Linux sales, they will lose business. If they made a profit on Linux sales, they even lose profit by cutting their Linux offer. They will also lose investments they made.
No, this is not necessarily the case. Building Linux laptops has an opportunity cost. If the opportunity cost of building one Linux laptops is building two Window laptops, then building Linux laptops might be causing them lost profit from the Windows laptops they could have been building in that time.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
I am a Thinkpad lover. It is such a well built and designed machine. I dreaded the switch to Lenovo. And now this. I won't be buy any more IBMs. In fact, my next laptop will be a MacBook Pro, so I triple boot with MacOS X, Windows and Linux (my primary).
Kernel Krunch - Part of a Complete OS
You got it partly right, they are doing this to assure access to the US market. But not in the way that you think.
China is under enormous pressure to crack down on piracy. Most software in china is illegal. As far as Microsoft is concerned, every linux PC in china is equivalent to a "naked" PC, i.e. one that will be formated to install a pirated version of windows.
Lately, China has been trying to do just enought to avoid trade sactions by the US and WTO. No doubt they informed their highest visibility PC manufacturer to do this, so they will look like they are serious and head off sactions. This way they get some brownie points with Microsoft and the bought-and-paid-for MS lackeys at BSA (who lobby WTO and US Congress). Meanwhile, the rest of the chinese pc industries keeps on doing business as usual and ripping off commercial software left-and-right.
I like using Linux as much as the next guy but:
It's a shame Lenovo didn't take this opportunity to help address these issues, but it's ultimately their loss.
That I agree with 100%. The thinkpads used to be some of the best Linux laptops available that capability will be missed.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
I honestly could care less if mainstream PC companies leave out linux. they usually don't really get it right anyway - offering a limited selection of pre-installed distros that are installed their way.
a lot of the point of linux is that you can install it with the exact distro you like, and with the exact packages you like. Since it is free, it makes a lot more sense to get it yourself.
I wonder how many people who are proficient in Linux don't know how to build their own PC? Probably about 3. So really, the only thing mainstream PC vendors need to offer are laptops with no OS.
Lenovo can't control the PC industry worldwide and they can't sell to the US government. May be IBM sold them a pup. Linux has never depended on any hardware franchise so their decision is a non-event.
My case was a Radeon 9600 on a regular desktop PC. Of course it works decently on the basic cases, but try dual-head with 3d acceleration. For me at least, that was extremelly painful to get going in linux, and trivial in windows. Dual-head with different resolutions on each monitor made such nasty graphical artifacts on the screens i was ashamed someone would see it and think linux sucked. Playing 2 videos at once was slow, it felt like 1999 again. Restarting X (without changing xorg.conf) would bring a random refresh rate for each monitor. This was with up-to-date software and drivers around March 2006.
Both Nvidia and ATI provide binary linux drivers. I use kubuntu dapper and on those forums i rarelly see any complaint about Nvidia. Also, most how-to forum posts range from "its one step on nvidia, and 3 pages of shit for ATI" to "if you even want to try this, get a Nvidia card".
Hell, i was as big a fanboy of ATI as anyone a few years ago when they finally fixed up their windows drivers and had better price/performance ratio than nvidia. But now i run linux. I moved on, and ATI didn't.
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
Lenovo needs to make money.
Not many make more money than Microsoft.
Linux users are generally very computer savy, they don't have a need for someone to put things together for them, they can do it themselves. Lenovo must not see a profitable market to use Linux in.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
That must have been years ago, or some NVidia fanboy fud.
On current ATI Linux drivers, using a current (i.e. 2-years old to current) Linux distribution, it was literally this easy:
I literally didn't have to read a single page of anything. It Just Worked(tm), as expected.
I can see this is probably a knee jerk marketing action to boost sales, but it's like saying "We commit support the platform everyone else is supporting already and are not prepared for any weird change in the industry."
So in general there is no real news here: "Our offerings have just become more limited than what they had been in the past. the public should be impressed by that fact, and should give us their business."
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
> but Lenovo is simply asking, "where is the biggest market", and the biggest market is for machines loaded with Windows
Windows is certainly a larger market. But that market is not growing much, and worse, that market is totally saturated. By now practically all major corporation already have their favorite vendor - usually dell.
I don't know, maybe all pre-loaded windows is the best business choice for Lenovo. But the saturation in the windows market is worth taking into account.
*NM*
For PC market true, but for a good linux laptop, thinkpads have of late been an excellent choice with all the features working under linux.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
This Smells like the Politics of Appeasement. After all here on slashdot whe have seen: US State Department has Banned Lenovo PCs from its networks, (May 22nd) and earlier, Lenovo is Accused of Spying (March 30th).
Note: I work for IBM but not for IBM's IT or support departments, and I have no non-public knowledge of IBM's plans, and may well have misunderstood the public info.
IBM is slowly moving toward Linux as the standard desktop for internal use. IBM's CIO actually announced in 2004 that IBM's standard desktop platform would be Linux by the end of 2005. That didn't happen because it turned out to be much harder than expected to get all of the internal apps moved to Linux, but IBM has continued the push in a low-key way. More and more internal applications are moving to the web, and the IE-only web apps are slowly getting fixed. IBM Workplace provides Lotus Notes application support on Linux. Most all new internal apps are either web-based or written in Java and tested on multiple platforms.
I don't know how long it will take, but unless something changes, Linux will eventually be the standard desktop/laptop operating system for IBM employees. If Lenovo is selling machines that contain a bunch of hardware that doesn't play well with Linux, will this lead to IBM having to abandon the Thinkpad? More likely IBM will simply tell Lenovo to use Linux-supported hardware in the boxes they sell to IBM. IBM has to be Lenovo's single largest customer.
What worries me is the interim period, before IBM begins supporting Linux whole-heartedly for internal use and demanding Linux compatibility. My next Thinkpad could be unable to run my preferred operating system effectively. I wonder what people would say if I bought a machine with my own money to use for work? It would probably be one of the new Macs, dual-booting OS X and Debian Linux -- assuming, of course, that Linux runs well on them.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
he blew up Lotus, and the ibm pc business oh my - if Mr Zollar is in charge of an Ibm division that you use - be very afraid.
Bill Gates should recruit Al Zollar.
I've had both a T42 (IBM) and T43 (Lenovo). Both are solidly built.and both are excellent Linux machines.
Yeah, well, I also work for IBM, and there are plenty of new Windows-only enterprise applications being developed.
Really? I kept looking, and never saw any option for buying a ThinkPad without Windows, let alone one with Linux preloaded.
Sure, back in the days of the ThinkPad 600 there were a few abortive experiments, but that was a long time ago.
I think the only difference is that Lenovo have come out and stated what was IBM's unofficial policy for years.
[Opinions mine, not IBMs.]
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Dear Sir/Ms.,
If you choose not to support Linux/*BSD on you line of Thinkpads, that's OK by me; they're yours, after all. But please do support those people trying to keep this happening outside of Lenovo. Give them the specs they need and let them do the grunt work. Let _them_ make it happen, and I won't bug you for answers or drivers.
I really want to buy a new Thinkpad but I won't if all I can run on it is Windows.
Sincerely,
A Consumer with money to spend
What kinds of kinks does this throw into continued IBM development and endorsement of Linux?
The way I look at it, it's a negative kink. I've always felt IBM got out of the hardware business precisely because being in it meant they were always beholdant to Microsoft and couldn't fully embrace linux.
Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but "We're betting the Company on Linux" necessitates doing just this. And Lenovo just seems to be proving the point.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I guess in this context, "support" just means that the hardware built into the system is supported, i.e. works - to some degree.
And that exactly is the problem: as I pointed out in my OP and as you all probably know, there are WiFi chips that work under Linux and there are those that don't. Some power management stuff works, some doesn't. Sometimes special functions (switching on/off the external display connector) work, sometimes they don't.
The reason for all this is that for most components, there are no drivers by the component manufacturer. Sometimes there are drivers from enthusiasts, but they often do not work for all versions of the hardware or do not support all features or all possible configurations.
So, simply making a laptop work as intended is not a trivial, sometimes and impossible task with Linux.
How then, should a company like Lenovo guarantee that everything works, i.e. "support" it in this sense of the word?
...if the cum is dry on balmer's lips yet.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
You make some good points, but I still think that at least some manufacturers would be less reluctant to provide drivers if there was an easier way to include closed source drivers in Linux. The reason is that these people are regarding their hardware interfaces as trade secrets and valuable stuff that they do not want to make public. That you and I probably disagree on that does not matter: their lawyers etc make them all panicking about stuff like this and the end result is that they do not want to provide open source drivers.
So yes, I think better support for closed source drivers and certification of such drivers for the kernel would greatly improve the situation. Not every manufacturer will be ready to invest the development money, but more than now will do it.
Sure, that does not guarantee bug-free drivers either, but somebody who has a job implementing such a driver with a hardware interface specification on his desk certainly has a far easier task before him than somebody who has to tediously reverse-engineer as much as he can, with the hardware that is available to him.
The main problem here is that Linux is actually *loosing* critical mass with regard to support of all the hardware components out there, and especially the next generation of multimedia media and devices will critical for Linux.
When I look at the current path of Linux, I am, unfortunately, quite pessimistic as to how this will develop.
I just bought a laptop last week. I got it from www.rcubedtech.com because it's one of the only Linux laptop vendors I can find (with decent prices). I was originally considering a Lenovo Thinkpad as my second choice, but now I'm glad I did not.
Do not mark in this space. For official office use only.
Who?
I've already switched to a far superior unix laptop for day to day use: a MacBook Pro.
And I've moved my servers to Fedora Core and Ubuntu.
My ThinkPad T42 is used strictly for legacy Windows 3D apps. And I'm side-grading to OSX versions, as I'm able.
Switching back and forth frequently, Windows is like the dark ages.
They're excluding themselves from the US government buying their puters because they're chinese.
And now they're excluding themselves from the Chinese government buying them because they don't ship with Linux.
Way to go.
True. Thinkpads used to be _the_ Linux laptop brand. The two most common laptops at my university('s CS courses) are Apples and IBMs - we're very *nix-centric and many students want to use a *nix on their laptop. People who couldn't even afford a student-priced (i|Mac)Book often go with a low-end Thinkpad because that's the best choice for cheap mobile Linux.
If Lenovo really ignores Linux I expect Apple usage to increase - most Linux-friendly laptops are more expensive than decently-specced (i|Mac)Books and studenty are, by definition, poor.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
In my experience that's not really true of ATI cards, but in any case, the NVIDIA installation goes like this:
apt-get install nvidia-glx
Restart X.
OK, naming a Thinkpad here is a bit cheating :)
And "Never had a reason to try the modem." too -- never used a R50 but I know that the modem was one of the things that was hard to get to work with other TP models. Also some of the "special function" keys on more recent models.
I still remember that when TP still belonged to IBM they had a "IBM recommends MS Windows" blurb on their pages where they were selling the laptops. And it was damned hard to get these with Linux pre-installed -- impossible to get them directly from IBM, actually.
I'm also an IBM employee, but unlike you I DO work for one of the internal IT support departments. Because of this, I know that almost NOBODY uses Linux on their desktops and laptops right now. The internal software support for Linux just still isn't there: There are still plenty of IBM internal web applications that require the use of Internet Explorer. and there STILL isn't a native Notes client for Linux. Sure, it works half decently under WINE, but that's not something that most developers and managers want to count on for daily use. The internal software download sites also have a lousy collection of Linux desktop software, and forget calling the help desk if you run into a problem with the Linux client build.
Sure... Folks are still working to fix these problems, but don't expect to see any major improvements coming out this year.
http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/lenovo/raven/
although i don't know why anyone would want anything to do with a hardware manufacturer who makes exclusive deals with microsoft.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Unless the RC's show me something the betas don't, I'll just stick with XP. Vista has NOT impressed me one bit. I installed beta 2, and was not impressed. Hardware requirements aside, it was slow, and this wasn't on a slow computer. Tried it on my home computer, P4 2.8HT, gig ram, Nvidia 6600GT sata drives, also a new E1505 dual core laptop with gig ram, X1400 video card. Heck, just about ANY flavor of Linux runs faster...unfortunately, I live and work in a world dominated by windows, but I'll just run XP....at least until vista SP1, or whatever comes after vista.
So China is less paranoid of U.S. software than the U.S. is of Chinese hardware? Who's crazy here?
I guess this is what Lenovo had to do to be allowed to come back selling to the US government.
BTW didn't Microsoft got sued for something like that a couple of years ago ?
On the other hand I guess anything that makes the Chinese economy less competitive is good for the rest of the world?
And I will not be a happy camper if this is true. Every couple of years I get a new Thinkpad and to be able to do my job it has to run Linux properly. If Lenovo will not support Linux, I will be petitioning management to get me something that DOES, and the 50 to 80 thousand Linux users inside IBM (to date, its going up all the time) will be right behind me. I assume IBM management knew the risk of letting go of the PC company, but I sure hope they are prepared to see their employees walking around with HP, DELL, Toshiba or even Apple laptops.
> I know that almost NOBODY uses Linux on their desktops and laptops right now.
really? that's odd - since about 80% of the people in my department run linux on their thinkpads.
maybe what you mean is: NOBODY who uses linux on a desktop bothers with desktop support?
If the story only implied that IBM wasn't shipping Linux on their laptops, let me say it straight out:
... and the builtin modem wasn't supported. I needed to buy a separate PCI card modem. (They were very up front about this.)
IBM wasn't shipping Linux on their laptops.
There was a brief time when IBM did ship Linux, but it was brief. And IBM never ensured that Linux would work with all the hardware on the laptop. When I bought an A25 from them I bought it with Linux installed by them
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Linux allows us an alternative to the OEM installed OS. FOSS gives us choice. Why would a company, that has copied for the last 15 years Mac OS, fight an open source of ideas to copy?
Lenovo is playing hard-to-get just to get Linux to lower his price.
Oh, wait...
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
What the hell is wrong with being able to do simple X11 configurations in a lousy 640X480 16 color mode? Every modern adaptor supports VESA modes, so it seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I don't have an aversion to text files - so long as the contents of which are well documented. But people coming from Windows are used to having their graphical editors - which distros like Ubuntu do a TERRIFIC job at providing. Why not provide some consistency for those types of users? Or should anyone who does not have a Linux certification 'go shove it'?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
they just can't get their commie version of linux to work on this lenovo thing.
this is just their cover story
I've been a very happy owner of a ThinkPad for almost a year now, mostly because its excellent GNU-Linux compatibility. But Frank Kardonski's statement just lost me as a future Lenovo customer. I'll be looking elsewhere for my next laptop purchase.
Building a better ribosome since 1997
If this is happening now, chances are that IBM has talked to Lenovo about this many times in the past. They have probably come up with some sort of "linux will work just fine on the computers we will be making" backroom agreement between both companies. I am not sure, but i do not think Lenovo would attempt to alienate IBM in the areas of laptops and PCs. Mabey non-corp linux support for these machines has become some sort of terrible burden for Lenovo.
Crisis is the rule, not the exception.
Five hours? You spent that much time on trying to get dual-headed X working, and still failed? Please, please tell me you don't write code for a living, or do anything but change backup tapes for whatever company you work for.
First time EVER running Ubuntu was when I installed Dapper Drake this past week. I used ATI's drivers, read a bit of documentation, and have hardware accelerated dual-headed X working just peachy. I think it took me 20 minutes from start to finish.
People like you have zero business even touching a computer, and give the rest of us who have the ability to read and comprehend documentation a bad name.
No, setting up stuff like dual-headed displays under X isn't the same as under Windows. It's also not exactly difficult either.
dumbass troll
If you had a better graphics card you would have been able to read when i wrote:
"Of course it works decently on the basic cases"
Now go try compiz on ATI and then come call me a fanboy again.
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
You're probably right, since the graphics card in here is the biggest, baddest card ATI made for laptops ~1 year ago; an ATI Technologies Inc M10 NT [FireGL Mobility T2] (Radeon 9500).
I'm happily running Xgl here with zero artifacts or problems, nice and speedy. I can flip the card into powersave mode too if I want to double my battery life. Works like a charm.
Because of this, I know that almost NOBODY uses Linux on their desktops and laptops right now.
No one who calls for support, anyway. Have you checked out the internal Linux support mailing lists and newsgroups? There are plenty of more-technical people in IBM who use Linux right now, and the numbers are increasing, with management blessing, if not direct support (yet).
There are still plenty of IBM internal web applications that require the use of Internet Explorer.
Yes, there are.
there STILL isn't a native Notes client for Linux.
IBM Workplace. It's not a formally released product, and I have to admit I haven't actually used it (I use fetchnotes for mail and use the Windows version the three or four times per year I have to use some Notes-based application), but it's been in beta for quite a while.
Sure... Folks are still working to fix these problems, but don't expect to see any major improvements coming out this year.
Agreed, it won't be this year, and probably won't be next year either, but it is coming which was my point. Until the tools and apps get good enough to be usable by the less technical in IBM, there's little need for formal support structures, since the engineers who use Linux can do what they need without IT support. And I agree that we're quite far away from that point.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I was planning to buy an x43 Tablet (or an x60 Tablet, if one exists by the time fall semester starts).
What thin, light, but not less than 1024x768 Tablet PC can I buy now?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I certainly am thinking twice about buying my Raven X60 notebook, which is just a Lenovo X60 Thinkpad renamed to 'Raven' and with Linux (ubuntu Dapper Drake in my case) pre-installed.
;)
The ONLY reason I am not cancelling this order, is that I don't want to mess up the Emperor Linux folks who have already had to order the laptop on my behalf. They're good people and I don't want to jerk them around. However, if this had happened last week, I'd have saved myself a bundle and bought one of the cheaper 12.1" notebooks instead. When paying a premium for a luxury notebook, I don't want to be supporting a company (Lenovo) that has such a poor opinion of their customers choices. This will likely be my LAST Thinkpad purchase. Maybe I'll put a Tux sticker over the Thinkpad logo to hide my shame
This turn of events is really surprising to me because, I thought that, part of the reason that IBM, sold off this division was because there was a conflict of interest with their Linux software consulting and the pressure that they had from Microsoft. I thought that a major part of the issue was that Lenovo would be immune to this pressure and be working in a country where the local consumers were more likely to purchase linux boxen than elsewhere because of the strong Linux push in China. Of course, this could be looked at another way by realizing that, while IBM couldn't knuckle under to the pressure from Microsoft without losing face, Lenovo could.
So, where are the IBM linux consultants supposed to get their Linux laptops from now?
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
"There is no "lack of Linux adoption"; at this point, Linux is the most common OS after Windows, with OS X trailing a distant third on servers and a closer third on desktops. Linux supports far more hardware than OS X, and far more hardware out of the box than Windows."
= 2
Really? According to these stat trackers, OSX's share is an order of magnitude larger than that of Linux. OSX is approximately 3% to 4%, and Linux is 1/10th of that.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/May/os.php
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Some countries don't allow pc's to be shipped without an OS though (to parry infringement)h so IBM used to ship them with the good ol' IBM dos (or something else that as its copyright expired).
I do love "!" but not as much as I love "..."...
for $1000 Alex.
Someone hates these cans.
I'm disappointed by this, because Thinkpads have always been some of the most Linux-friendly laptops available. Otherwise Thinkpads are great too, with the best keyboards by far, etc. I'll have a hard time giving up mine.
BTW, I almost ordered a brand-new T42 this morning. I changed my mind for other reasons, but even though I know the T42 works with Linux, I doubt I'll be buying Lenovo products in the future. I've heard the newest models are noticeably junkier already.
Ummmm... Al Zollar is in charge of *IBM Tivoli*. What are you talking about?
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
You're lucky --
In my experience with ATI vs nVidia on both windows & linux, nvidia's drivers have --ALWAYS-- worked better overall for BOTH operating systems.
I'm no nVidia fanboy by anymeans, but until ATI makes my job as a computer technician easy on my computer and on my costumers' computers, I'm only buying and only recommendeding nVidia.
Wow. I just don't know what to say to that. Amazing, really, how much of a prick you make yourself sound. Especially since if you were a "born" mac user you would have been born post-1984, making you pretty young in relation to the computer industry.
To reply to you statements there, Firefox *is* a good app, although it's not the best Mac browser. I personally don't user, actually I use Safari. And remember, up until a couple of years ago, the only browsers for Mac that were decent were IE and Netscape, not something Apple-made.
I switched to the Mac because I used to maintain them, and have used them since the 5200CD days, running OS 7.6.1, I just never owned one personally, because they didn't really fit my lifestyle. I like to be able to tinker in the command line, so I had a PC which I could install Linux/BSD on and have some fun. OS X gives me that power, while still keeping me from having to painfully do day to day tasks.
I love my Macs (I have a PowerBook, Mac Mini G4, and a Graphite iMac DV), but I'm also realistic about how the business world works. Where I work, there is no way we could run on all Macs today, but I hope that in the future it will be possible. The whole idea of having a Mac is to make things easier. Sticking a Mac where it doesn't belong on principle just goes against the whole idea of owning and using Macs. The best solution for the task is what should be used, and in my case it's Windows Server 2003, Windows XP, Microsoft Dynamics/Great Plains, and Microsoft Office, with RedHat Linux where possible on the server side.
Oh, and btw, I think you meant Claris, the company that was split off from Apple to produce ClarisWorks, later remerged back into Apple and rebranded AppleWorks. Yes, I do know my Apple history as well.
I hate sigs...
more than likely, will come thru the backdoor for most people, like myself, who switched to a dual boot environment and eventually migrated to a full only-Linux configuration. It's a slower way for adoption, but it works just the same.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that Apple disagrees with you. Trying to say that the mac is only for the elite few that possess some sort of hidden knowledge that the rest of us don't have (which apparently has to do with knowing what some animated QuicktimeVR animal is).
In other words, shut the fuck up and go back to your little hole of a perfect world where only you and your friends can reside. For me, I'll keep using my Macs, and I'll keep switching people over from the hell that is Windows. Oh, and you might consider not posting as anonymous if you want to flame people about stupid shit all the time.
I hate sigs...
Most people I see runing linux on thier laptops are useing a Lenovo/IBM :( those guys are idiots (but then again ms probably gives them a price cuts for their domination of a PC lineup).
I fear the Y2038 bug
Recent converts like you are ruining the old school Mac community because you are posers.
What's there to ruin? You are the people who cheer on Apple's every act of plagiarism. You were too stupid to figure out how badly MacOS used to suck and were paying Apple a huge premium for junky software. You used to foam at the mouth about how evil UNIX was, but now that Apple ships their cheap imitation of it, it's the best thing since sliced bread.
I say: the more we can ruin your "community" the better; you're a bunch of morons and zealots who don't deserve any better. And you're absolutely right in your distrust of Linux: we're going to ruin your platform for you. When we're through with it, it's going to be an overpriced, underperforming Linux clone.
Even the mighty waterfall
starts its life
as a single drop of water
If he chooses to use Ubuntu, and then later gets just one other to use it and continue the movement... soon everyone has a lot more choice of water. Sure it's true Microsoft has the industry in a death grip. It won't always be that way. Given time over the years all empires fall. Just do your own part, and choose your own path.
Anybody remember this story: http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/ 19/1238255&from=rss
State says "No!"
China screams, "Big Brother Billy Boy!"
Billy wacks George W.
State says "ok....."
It's amazing how much of the United States you can buy for how little.
One: run all Chinese PC on Linux.
Two: run all foreign devil PC on Windows.
Three: export hacker, import geek.
Four: Only Chinese PC still work. Rest of world collapse to barbarism.
Five: Chinese people rule world. Profit.
...since that pretty much nails the last spike in the coffin for me. After 8 years of almost total loyalty to the Thinkpad line (starting with the butterfly-kb 701cs to my current P43) I will have to find a new laptop. I think those new Apple models.....
Cut out Linux support and Windows is suddenly much cheaper...
Penny wise and pound foolish, then. There are plenty of sysadmin types like myself who use linux. Now we don't add up to much, but all the systems we specify do. I promote linux when I can, but care enough about remaining employed to push Windows where I must. But I will not promote vendors who intentionally leave linux out to dry.
Linux may be an OS for geeks only. Today. But those geeks have a great deal of influence on IT generally. Bad Lenovo. No orders for you.
Nevermind that one would think the Chinese government, of all places, would prefer to avoid using an operating system that might spy on them. When a Chinese company prefers to bend over for Microsoft rather than promote the interests of its own goverment, something is seriously fucked up in the world.
Well, if they stop supporting Linux officially, then they've just lost my business.
My future personal laptops will be another brand that officially supports Linux, and so will the laptops of my entire developer team.
They are pieces of crap.
My company buys Lenovo Laptops exclusively, to the great frustration of the people who actually have to use them.
They are unstable, unreliable, and breakdown.
I've had both.
Although some major hardware vendors offer Linux configurations, these are usually hard to find and often cost more than the equivalent Windows build. Driver and tech support for Linux by these vendors can sometimes be wanting (although Windows support is often no better).
For larger enterprises that have wisely decided to deploy Linux, none of this is an impediment. These companies rarely use the shipping build for the PCs they deploy. Instead, the use internal desktop engineering talent to create custom images for their machines.
Individuals who are savvy enough to understand the advantages Linux provides usually have the ability and desire to overcome the shortcomings of obstacles the current hardware market presents.
Even in the "good old days" when IBM manufactured and sold PCs and laptops most installations of Linux were done on machines that shipped with Windows, usually with little assistance from Big Blue. Linux drivers were not available for many devices, and users had to resort to the much more reliable (and genuinely committed) open source community for solutions (solutions which are the only thing that made it possible for the vendors themselves to preload Linux).
So Lenovo's marketing position here is really inconsequential. What's more important are continuing efforts to support open source development of device driver solutions for Linux, and to identify compatibility issues when they exist.
it was nice knowin' ya while it lasted.
Lenovo can take their thinkpads and shove it up their collective asses. Who needs them anyway? There are so many other notebook/laptop vendors. Pity about the PC's though. IBM PC's were quite decent, well constructed and reliable so far, in our office use. Dell's giving us a couple of servers with RHEL supported by them.
just got an x41 "Raven" tablet from EmperorLinux, and it rocks. i asked them to keep a small WinXP partition on the drive in case i really need to play a game or run software that is only available on windows, and 3 weeks in haven't had to boot into it once. linux has come a long way. additional pluses about EmperorLinux were that they have good support and a standing order for many laptops, so if you can't get your machine from the manufacturer direct, check there.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
i think the possible reason behind this is that they have already invested so much with supporting windows. when you look at their software (thinkvantage), it's quite amazing how much they are able to take control from windows. for example, the rescue and recovery service partition is from a customized version of windows (they are able to make windows run from a single cd-rom disc.) on top of that, they are able to change the login and security of windows beyond the regular such as integrating fingerprint and password manager (i don't login using the regular windows xp login screen, the interface is from their software.) they can also secure the system with passphrases and integrating it with their security chip.
they have already made lots of utilities for windows. i think it will take a big investment for them to port it to linux and support lots of distributions around. right now, it might not make financial sense for them to do that.
Live your life each day as if it was your last.
Well I wish I had checked the hardware section of Slashdot before I bought a Lenovo 4 hours ago...
You are gay.
This in many ways makes no sense at all. I thought one of the main reasons that they were buying IBM's PC business was to expand their customer base. Haven't they learned that by looking at MS's past deals w/ vendors similar to Lenvono deals have gone sour and they have paid the price for not considering the open os market? Everyone knows that some of the most loyal gnu/Linux enthusiasts used thinkpads mainly because they had an excellent support relationship with IBM? _geezzz_ Someone has just shot themselves in the foot. Sure other people in the comments have been saying the exact same thing that I have but, it's so critical i just had to post it ;-P
The biggest negative about this is that this probably means that another supplier will force everyone to buy Windows with their hardware.
I could live with them not "supporting" Linux or not selling Hardware with Linux pre-installed. But the habit of those "Microsoft partners" force-feeding Windows to their customers is simply disgusting.
I just wonder why so few people find that disgusting too (do they actually enjoy the thought of a market that is close to 100% controlled by a single, world-wide operating company?) and why even fewer voice their opinion and let these people know.
I am not aware of any brand that doesn't force-sell Windows and actually works with Linux and satisfies minimum quality standards.
So, your suggestions would really be most welcome here.
Lenovo will lose their low-price advantage, for there is substantial difference in pricing low-end notebooks WITH and WITHOUT Windows!
Nowadays laptops start as low as $300, making OEM licence for XP to be 10% of the price!
And as broader usage of linux is to be expected, it will make Lenovo less competitive.
...is really immediate. been looking all the time for a nice little new notebook for me girl, an figured a lenovo would suit her just fine, but having read this news... ciao ciao lenovo never see you again. stick wit sony and samsung.
The PS3 will probably have little effect, unless Linux usability is more than you'd expect Sony to care to provide. OTOH, OLPC potentially could have a huge impact; both directly and because it creates incentives both for adoption of Linux and investing in Linux software development for businesses and public agencies in the countries where it is adopted for educational use.
roofles
+++ATH0
CRN posted an update on the Lenovo/Linux story. This makes more sense... http://crn.com/sections/breakingnews/breakingnews. jhtml;jsessionid=A5QHB1BJ1B3IOQSNDBCSKHSCJUMEKJVN? articleId=188701694
http://www.channelweb.com/sections/allnews/article .jhtml?articleId=188701694&cid=ChannelWebNews
To put a fine point on it... You Get What You Pay For.... I mean, in the end, isn't Microsoft a lot like China anyway? I mean, they both use heavy-handed, repressive tactics to supress all hint of revolution or evolution. They both have a Chairman... China has Chairman Mao, Microsoft has Chairman Gates. They both have vast numbers of subjugated masses yearning to be free. Bill Gates, the head of Microsoft, has visited Chinese leader Hu Jintao in his home country. Chinese President Hu Jintao has visited Microsoft leader Bill Gates in his home. They both like Chinese food. Both are afraid of Openness. China is Red, Microsoft is Blue. China uses its power to censor unpleasant truths about its system of operations. Microsoft uses its power to censor unpleasant truths about its operating systems. China bribes and steals technology from any source it can get. Microsoft seems to aquire a lot of stuff from interesting sources.
It depends what you are using them for, they work fine for me when I am doing desktop work (I have a T41P with a firegl/9600 BTW) but when I am playing games they are pretty poor. Neverwinter nights crashed so much I had to give up playing. Although to be fair is has been a year or so since I have done serious game playing, I do occasionally play ET but prefer windows for this because then I can use Teamspeak as well (I have never sucessfully got 2 realtime sound applications to work on the thinkpad).
Another problem I had with the ATI was that the suspend function is broken, which is really terrible.
He who defends everything, defends nothing. -- Fredrick The Great
It must be your particular card. I can suspend, hibernate and resume without any issues here at all. I'm pretty impressed, for a seamless, fast, 2D/3D driver. Granted, I don't do games, but the one I do test it with (bzflag), really works well.
No point buying a system from a vendor that doesn't support you.
I'll either carry on making my own systems - as I have for the past 15 years for my desktops - or I'll buy a laptop from a vendor who does support Linux.
They are out there.
Only boring people are ever bored.
In general, it's hard to buy machines with Linux preinstalled, particularly notebooks, directly from hardware vendors in the US. Check out the HP, Dell, and Gateway websites to see what they offer. (I can save you some time and report that it is essentially zero on their US sites.)
As others have noted, Dell, HP, and others have established OEM relationships with resellers such as EmperorLinux, who configure, sell, and support Linux boxes. In that way, HP and Dell can make the money from the hardware sale without incurring the problem of supporting a Linux distro. The reseller can then decide which distros to install and support for each machine. As the end user for a Linux system, that actually works better for me. Even if I could buy it directly from Dell or HP, I already have a fairly good idea of the level of support that they would provide to me as an end user.
So I wouldn't worry very much about Lenovo's shunning of Linux. If they make good machines, someone will come along to configure and support them for Linux.
In Kubuntu Dapper you can easily control dual screens through the GUI in Systemsettings.
It has never been easier!