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Japan Plans a Moonbase by 2030
Aglassis writes "The Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) announced at a conference that they are planning to build a Moonbase by 2030. Since JAXA doesn't currently have a 100 ton-class heavy lift rocket or a human transportation system perhaps now is a good time for JAXA to join in with NASA on the Project Constellation rocket program."
Under the plan, astronauts will be sent to the Moon around 2020 to start construction of the base that will be completed by 2030
This reminds me of the timeframes set out by the state construction workers on our highways.
Considering all the reliability concerns of running an extraterrestrial habitat in vacuum, I'm glad they are using JAXA technology rather than AJAX!
that the US faked the moon landings! :)
In any case, 24 years seems quite a lot to me, considering that all the technology needed to accomplish this is available.
That's funny, I *also* have plans to build a base on the moon! I wonder how likely it is to go through?
I really hope it does happen. Before I die I have to go to the moon. I hope we start building condos out there in 50 years or so.
Moonbase Alpha was was scheduled for 1999, but EPA studies, the union strikes, and other construction delays caused the new completion date to be 2030.
When will the moon be torn out of orbit?
Fight Spammers!
"The feasibility of the plan is unclear at this point as we need to gain understanding by the government and the Japanese people on our plan, but technologically it would be possible in a few decades," said Satoki Kurokawa, spokesman for JAXA.
Translation: We don't know if it's feasible, we don't know if the government will pay for it, we don't know if the people are for it, but we think it's possible. What a pile-o-poo-poo.
These guys sound like NASA.
Wake me up when Japanese industrialists figure out something they can do on the moon and want to send robots there or something.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Is it Jacks-a or Ja-za? I'm sure in Japanese it's different, but how are English-speakers supposed to say it?
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Whooo! Way to go Japan, at least they are planning for the future. You don't see them plunging into war after war, deplete their resources and manpower. A moon base in my life time, very exicting.
They call me....Tim??!
Whew,
thought we had a new acronym:; Java And XML Asynchronously.
Actually, kind of like that more than AJAX....
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
You go, Japan. Someone's gotta do it, and ever since we rejected science for religion, all your base are no longer belong to US.
Hey, Japan! 2020 called. They want their moon base back!
As if! As if there's going to be any room left for Japanese Moonbase in 2030. It's gonna be all Starbucks as far as the eye can see. Mare Nostrum will be filled with Americano. Somebody sent us up the chai latte. What you say? Four moonbucks for a cup of Joe? Soylent Latte is People! Well. Person. Named Joe. Damn you john Katz.
Hey, we got dibs on Mars, too, MFers!
-----------
Holy Crap! I had this weird dream that I was a blogger, and went I woke up my Karma had gone to hell.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
all your base are belong to us?
Moon Unit Zappa.
Task Mangler
NASA's astronauts haven't done anything interesting or useful for decades.
All the action in the US space program is with the unmanned probes.
Perhaps Japan will put some excitement back into manned spaceflight.
Didn't Bush reinstate plans to start putting Americans back on the moon shortly after he was elected? If so, maybe there will be a race to see who can build the first moon base just as there was with putting the first man on the moon.
"Mare Nostrum will be filled with Americano"
Sounds like some awful pidgin Latin utterance by someone with cheese in his nose.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"Didn't Bush reinstate plans to start putting Americans back on the moon shortly after he was elected?"
After the well publicized Bush rift with Hollywood, there's no chance that his administration will get to repeat the moon landings. I only hope with this new Japanese moon effort, they remember to clear all the miniature cardboard skyscrapers off of the soundstage.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"This reminds me of the timeframes set out by the state construction workers on our highways."
However, due to stark environmental realities, the sympathy strike by the oxygen-delivery union will have fatal consequences on the moon construction workers' picket line.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Japanese are smaller and more portable, so getting them to the Moon should be much cheaper and easier than Americans.
Plus water boils at a much lower temperature on the Moon, so the energy savings from their diet of rice should be substantial, and I'm pretty sure that raw fish would stay well preserved on the surface of the Moon, so it would be as good as fresh all the time!!
Late in June, speaking at the Farnborough aerospace show, the Roskosmos leadership suddenly announced that they were suspending the tender and would instead adopt a multi-stage program of creating a space transport vehicle [the kliper]. Now the main emphasis is on the time-tested orbital workhorse, the Soyuz spacecraft.
From here.
It seems that the Russians are having a few problems with their new space program. *shock*
Do you know why the road less traveled by is littered with the bones of the unwary?
When Kim Jong Il realizes that he can conquer Japan with nothing but a shock of bad hair, a scowl, and a butterknife, it'll be all over.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I'm sure we can send Japan our highly precise English-unit distance measurements to aid their effort. That, and a couple of hogsheads of Bud Light to sweeten the deal.
Where were you when the voynix came?
...in the movie "The Time Machine," the moon is blown apart in the year 2036.
You call it moon. We call it "Gitmo II".
Where were you when the voynix came?
Why not choose Mars instead?
Lots of ice on Mars.. More gravity is a good thing too. Sure, it's farther away, but once you're there it's probably more self-sustaining. Something tells me that if the Earth were to suffer a major catastrophe a moon base would be doomed as well. Not so for a Mars base, perhaps.
First, develop some kind of autonomous solar power development system. Let it work its magic for a couple decades. Maybe cover a thousand square miles with the cells. That should generate plenty of power for the first colonists.
Then send the first crew there with enough equipment to set up a base camp. You'll probably want to have the major stuff underground, just reduce the possibility of accidental depressurization.
Once they establish the initial systems, go into full colonization mode. Start doing geological surveys to look for usable natural resources such as Methane or petroleum.
Heck, in 50 years you could have something that might survive if the rest of the human population on Earth were to meet catastrophe. And this is with today's tech.
I mean, isn't that really the best reason to make an offworld base? To have some of our eggs diverge from the coordinates of our current basket?
TLF
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
You don't need a 100 ton rocket to go to the moon and NASA has already stated that the Constellation is an US-only project. What Japan will probably do is joining Europe and Russia on the ACTS (Advanced Crew Transportation System), that will be launched using existing Ariane 5 or similar rockets (20-25 ton to LEO, depending on the orbit inclination).
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
"Lots of ice on Mars"
Where there be ice, there be water. Where there be water, there be pirates, matey!
Where were you when the voynix came?
I, for one, welcome our new Japanese Overlords.
No one's going to want to live on the moon! Imagine the ping times! You're latency on Unreal Tournament 2030 will make it virtually unplayable!
Young. I will be 100 in 50 years when the condos will be built, by your estimation. :(
I also hope that medical technologies advance well enough to support me in 50 years time. :)
As much as I'm in awe of the things that NASA accomplished with human spaceflight before I was even born, it seems safe to say that due to the political whims of congress NASA hasn't really been allowed to see anything in human spaceflight through to completion since 1977. The _entire_ shuttle program was supposed to be just a stepping stone in a much larger program, somehow it became the program, can't even remember how many revisions of the ISS where proposed, planned, started before something actually was launched, of course its iffy if we are even going to finish a much reduced ISS. The seeminly random bushian 'hey lets drop everything and go to the moon!' proclaimation to a cynic might even seem like a dual-pronged approach to divert the productive science budgets into bloated aerospace contracts for said politicians buddies and a nice way to dare NASA to ask for the money necissary to actually do these things so his political cronies can say 'we're not wasting taxpayer money on this!' and zero out the entire budget.
Learn from the Russians and Europeans, don't do join human space flight with NASA - ever.
... don't ... no! ... must not ... arghhhh ... can't reezzziiissstttt... All Your... URRRRRRR... All Your Moo... UNNNGGHH... All Your Moon Baaasse... SLAAAAP!!! SLAAAPP!! SLAAAPP!! Unnn! ........... I won't... I won't Mistress O, I won't do it again! I'll resist! I'll resist! Please don'... nnnoooo!!! CRACKKKK! CRACCCCKKKK! CRAAACCCKKKKKKKKK!
Unnngggggghhhhh....
Oh... oh... thank you. Thank you....
11,453 yen was it?
--- What?
Let me assume that they will also run 5th generation computers.
They wasted millions on it in the eighties.
Wow, was all that necessary to get your point across?
I mean, they had already established a base on the moon a thousand years ago, so it makes perfect sense to rebuild it. Hell, why do you think that 4Chan referrs to Japanese as "Moon Language"?
Some think the Internet is a bad thing. I just think that AOL is a bad thing.
When will the moon be torn out of orbit?
I'm guessing shortly after the construction of Moon Unit Zappa.
They are prohibited from engaging in OFFENSIVE warfare. Their constitution allows for fighting in defensively. ( Currently, they are debating whether or not pre-emtive stikes are self-defense. Some Japanese claim that the N Korean missle building is a defacto act of war, and that to destroy the missle bases or production facilities is a defensive act. )
With all of the advancements in CG, I expect it will be far easier and cheaper to "land on the moon".
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
I bet that 4 acre lot of the moon I bought off the internet for $50,000 is EXACTLY where the Japs are going to build their base... Not sure how I'll evict them....
Future ruler of a small Asian-Pacific island
I don't want to read any more stories about anything more then 2 years out.
They are going to use the moon because Mars is just too far away. They would have to use many travels at one time to make the base within any kind of schedule. That would mean multiple rockets at one time. The moon is easier. It's also closer, so if there is trouble you can have people come over in a day or two. Just think about it! They loose their internet connections and all those gamers in the moon can't play their respective games? Somebody's gonna get hurt real bad!
Blind are we who do not know that we are blind. The world has been boring ever since I got here.
1962 - "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
2006 - "Its too hard and too expensive."
The Earth will be underwater by 2030, so it looks like pretty good timing from the Japanese. I guess the few Japanese people inhabiting the Moon will be the only humans left.
Don't forget what happened to our last moonbase:
...2516 days since leaving Earth orbit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJEdgtvxkxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PHPpzrKF8w
Hopefully, the Japanese will be smart enough not to store their nuclear waste there....
Thanks,
Mike
I mean, priorities people, priorities!
Wow! It looks like it will be crowded on the moon with all of these bases:Japan, Russia, China. But lets face it folks. The only credible plans for lunar exploration are coming out of the USA. The rest are just angling to hitch a ride.
an ill wind that blows no good
Once you realize that every paragraph of your post is handwaving nonsense - you'll understand why.
You disappoint me /..
Absolutely necessary link to Robert Zubrin's "Mars Direct" mission architecture for long term stays on Mars using 1970s technology can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct
"Reality continues to ruin my life" - Calvin and Hobbes
I'd be tempted to go straight for nuclear. Solar has problems with dust storms and the fact that less solar energy reaches mars. With nuclear, you get heat as a bonus side effect. I'd worry more about cosmic rays on the way to mars than living next to a reactor. Plus, deploying a thousand square miles of solar panels is really hard.
Once you have power and heat, you have to worry about water and shelter. I'd do it all remotely via robots, mining and building away. The whole thing would be extremely expensive and the result would be a bunch of people living in tunnels a long way from Earth. It's hard to say if the payoff is worth it at the moment.
One of the articles linked in the submission states the plan is to have Japanese astronauts landing on the moon by 2020, begin construction by 2025, and be permanently manned by 2030. Given that NASA's goal is to return to the moon by 2018, and that Japan's space agency is much smaller and younger than ours with no direct experience in manned exploration and no heavy-lift infrastructure, this really sounds extremely ambitious.
Yes, the bits and pieces of the technology exist, but the systems do not. We've proven in the past we can build the systems, but we still have to knuckle down and spend the time and money doing so again.
If any country puts a base on the moon, Japan will be first. These are people who will work their asses off for land. After all, they did lop off the top of one of their mountains so they could build an airport in the ocean..
That's a nice message and all that, but Kim Jong Il is not from China.
Where were you when the voynix came?
To put this in context, the ISS will have a mass of about 300 tonnes when complete. I would guess that a Moonbase would require about the same complexity as the ISS (to be useful). Assuming the mass lost for transit to the Moon is 50% this would take about 30 Arianne V flights with multiple rendevous procedures compared to 5 for the Ares V. Since the parts for Arianne V flights will be smaller, you will have to add additional mass for docking adapters or attachements (plus many more EVAs for assembly).
My second point is: while it is true that NASA has told the ESA that they can't work on the Ares I or Ares V rockets, I haven't heard that they have been blocked completely from Project Constellation. NASA just wanted to get those rockets going as fast as possible. Administrator Griffin has noted that it would be beneficial if everyone worked on the Moonbase together. For this reason, it seems to me that NASA wouldn't have a problem allowing other nations, such as Japan, to buy Ares V rockets for their purposes (which I hope the ESA does so that they can build a Moonbase). Additionally, Japan is in a much better political position to ask to join in on projects with NASA than their EU or Russian counterparts (due to recent political events). A Moonbase is a long way off, but I'm hoping that NASA and JAXA work together to build a moonbase. I think that the Russians and the ESA have felt snubbed by the Project Constellation denial and won't be partners in the future for Project Constellation (but I hope that I'm wrong).
Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
You kidding, right?
Why not choose Mars instead?
The moon is a lot closer. Less time to support astronauts in flight (food, water, oxygen). Less radiation exposure. Less fuel required.
Lots of ice on Mars.
OK, I'll give you that one. However, what does it matter? If you have a sealed environment it isn't like the water is going on vacation. You can recycle it. You have to purify/filter it to make it potable again, but with all the nice solar energy you get on the moon (no atmosphere to get in your way) you could always distill it.
More gravity is a good thing too.
Why the hell is it a good thing? Less gravity means structures need less material than on Earth. Less gravity also makes it a lot easier to get back off the moon if you want to. Why claw your way out of Earth's gravity well, just to drop into Mars' gravity well? Less gravity also means it is easier to perform tasks with high mass objects. Why send a forklift when a human can lift 6x as much on the moon. Makes moving and handling construction materials that much easier. Climbing into craters or up mountains is also easier.
Something tells me that if the Earth were to suffer a major catastrophe a moon base would be doomed as well.
Why? Think there is something big enough to completely shatter the planet? As long as the mass is there, the moon will be just fine.
First, develop some kind of autonomous solar power development system. Let it work its magic for a couple decades. Maybe cover a thousand square miles with the cells. That should generate plenty of power for the first colonists.
This is easier on the moon since it doesn't have any atmosphere to block the solar energy and, more importantly, doesn't have wind storms that can cover/damage the cells with dust or sand.
Then send the first crew there with enough equipment to set up a base camp.
Any idea how much mass we are talking about?!? We aren't talking about a small rover, we are talking tons. Think about how expensive it has been to launch all of the components for the ISS. Now increase the launch cost by at least a factor of 5, since it is going to Mars and not just a few hundred miles up. Now increase the amount of material by a factor of 10 or so - unless you want just enough space for 2 or 3 people without any heavy tools to do any construction.
Once they establish the initial systems, go into full colonization mode. Start doing geological surveys to look for usable natural resources such as Methane or petroleum.
Sure, but why can't they do this on the moon as well?
Heck, in 50 years you could have something that might survive if the rest of the human population on Earth were to meet catastrophe. And this is with today's tech.
Yes, but it wouldn't be done with today's budget.
I mean, isn't that really the best reason to make an offworld base? To have some of our eggs diverge from the coordinates of our current basket?
Yes. However, the moon is also offworld. It may not be as suitable for life as Mars, but if you would die if your suit malfunctions, does it really matter if it would take a few extra seconds for you to die? You are still 100% reliant on your equipment. Terraforming Mars would solve that problem but would take decades (at least) if it is even possible.
Now, I know I've been negative about your idea, but I don't dislike the idea of trying for a base on Mars. I just think that trying for one before setting up a colony on the moon is like trying to run before you can even crawl. The moon is a lot easier to get to, cheaper to get to, provides an excellent location for future launches (low gravity), and will provide a lot of lessons for when we do decide to go to Mars.
Besides, if we start a Mars colony, we know they will find some sort of ancient ruins - the UAC will be sent to investigate these ruins, and we will be forced to fight an invasion of demons from another dimension. So, if we start a Mars colony, make sure you have a good chainsaw and shotgun, and hide your ammo in bathroom stalls and behind equipment so you can find it when you need it.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
All our base belong to them!
Warning: Corny karma killing post above.
I've been living in Japan for the past two years and I can say I'm not surprised. With Japan's over-employment strategy, this moonbase will have two girls in brightly colored happy blue spacesuits (with matching hat, and white gloves) at every airlock.
"Going out, sir?"
"Uh... yeah."
"Which floo-- machigaita, dame! I mean, it will be my pleasure to puch the lock cycle button for you."
"No I can do it!"
"You? Aren't you supposed to be working the elevator, Makiko?"
"No, I'm on airlock today."
"Right, let's push it together. Ichi! Ni! Sa-"
"Hey, where did he go?"
"He pushed it himself!!"
and then the moonbase economy will collapse because we could not employ everyone.
Ok, this country's starting to affect me now. Going offline... cycling...... out.
*vaccuum sound*
perhaps now is a good time for JAXA to join in with NASA on the Project Constellation rocket program.
No, no, please no, a thousand times no.
If there's one thing we should have learned about launch vehicle engineering by now, it's that we do *not* want to decide based on viewgraphs and guesswork that we have now developed the One True Rocket Design which will make all other rockets unnecessary. That way leads to Space Shuttles, to NASP, to X-33, and so far I see no reason to doubt that Project Save-Our-Jobs-Program will be going down the same path.
Japan needs to design and build their own rockets. Perhaps Japan will make them more reusable, or design them for a higher flight rate with smaller per-flight payloads, or use all LOX/RP-1, or make any one of a hundred other different design choices which we ought to explore but which can't be tested in every alternative on a single vehicle. The more different organizations trying more variations, the better.
And although it might be nice for NASA's new program to get some outside funding, I suspect it will be far better for NASA's new program to get some outside competition. Money is a good motivator, true - but an even better motivator is the prospect of losing that money if someone else upstages you.
Of course, all that is irrelevant: Speaking of money, I should point out that the most important phrase of this story, "has not yet been allotted the budget for the ambitious project", was left out of the Slashdot summary. We see "Country X's space agency would like to go to the Moon" stories all the time, and they're hardly news. Of course every ambitious space program wants to go back to the Moon, and some of them will have administrators gutsy enough to say so publically; but someone let me know when anyone outside the USA has been given the billions of dollars necessary to do it.
This is a planning exercise, not a poliical commitment by thee Japanese government. Like NASA, JAXA's files are undoubtedly packed with plans for space missions that no one ever intended to come to fruition.
The government has not budgeted for this, and almost certainly will not.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
A Cambridge student working on methods to extract oxygen and metals from lunar soil was recently awarded the first prize in a contest co-organized by the Heinlein trust and Russian aviation/education complex. Maybe his work (and/or derivatives) would have an impact on this promising moonbase?
My sig has been answered.
I'm rather disapointed that we haven't uncovered more technology than what we have in the science field...We are going back to the same rocket design we used roughly 37 years ago?? Of course there are some changes, but you think we'd have something better planned by now. Has the space agency been asleep for 40 years? What we really need is an effective way to get things in to space from earth, if that were the case we could go anywhere...
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein
Completion has been slated to coincide with the release date of Duke Nukem Forever.
All the world's a stage, all the people but players.
"Wake me up when Japanese industrialists figure out something they can do on the moon and want to send robots there or something."
6 30.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000
Not totally practical, but it's there if you want a blue sky reason to invest the capital. Most of the early work would be an excuse to get the japanese government to fund some R&D, later investment can be scaled depending on developments on h3 reactors and other practical returns. With its energy needs and aging population Japan needs some revenue that has a high return on labor. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
Yeah, he certainly sounds like some of his sandwiches have diverged from the current coordinates of his (picnic) basket... ...'course, if angels truly do watch over little children, fools, and ships named Enterprise then he's one-third of the equation right there!
Why does this Japanese group have an English acronym?
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
From the footage I saw, MTV owns the moon. Awesome flag dudes!
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Everyone knows that the universe ends in 2012...
Why go back to the Moon? The Apollo missions were fine, just to show the world that the US was first -- but there's nothing there. It doesn't really have any valuable or useful minerals that we can't easily get on Earth, and it's pretty difficult to operate on its surface due to the low gravity and lack of atmosphere. There's absolutely no point in going back there. It costs a fortune, and we would get nothing from it.
My friend had a great idea: we should nuke the Moon. It would be totally spectacular to see something like that at night, and it would provide a use for all these nuclear weapons that are sitting around doing nothing.
This should have been started 35 years ago by the US and we would have a base on the moon now. Instead, we we wasted tons of money on the shuttle program and orbiting space stations that depend totally on supplies being transported from earth on a regular basis at great costs - space stations that will reach end of life and burn up in the atmosphere anyway. At least a moon base can use some local resources, generate power, water, O2, grow food and be built up instead of burnt up.
The real question is, are they sending any whalers there?
Hey, when your point's as dull as his was, you gotta hit it with a pretty big hammer to get it to go anywhere.
"Components. American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!"
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
Mare Nostrum will be filled with Americano
Then of course the name will be changed to Mare Nauseum
what do you mean? the Japanese are already there with the Nazi's on the far side of the moon ... been there since the 40's thanks to the german Haunebu craft! Hell, they're already on mars thanks to the Haunebu3 crafts :P .. bah.
u foaleman_3.htm
a few links for your amusement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_ufos
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ufo_aleman/esp_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Moon_base
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/moonger.html
p r m t h s
In our country we have a writer (Egon Bondy) who foreseens this (book Cybercomix). :-) Funny why to have a moon base? How many people could live/work there? Only researchers?
0 .html => do they know something that we don't know? :-)))
There was written in his book that:
* Workers are working for the world elites
* The technology is pushed so far that workers turns to be replacable by machines
* World is full of useless (for the elites) people (people loose the buying force because of loosing jobs...)
* Elites decide to build the moon base
Who will own the patents of the research results? Is it benefitting all of us? Why not to solve visible and well known Earth problems with that funds
instead of investing to uncertainity? Shouldn't we learn first how to live on the Earth in pease (not only between us but in with the nature too)
before expanding in the space?
Japan Plans 30-Year Supercomputer Forecasts: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/18/D8IUNBSO
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
>natural resources such as Methane or petroleum.
what from the dead aliens?
The only way the moon would be doomed along with the earth is if the earth lost its orbit, or blew up, and if earth lost its orbit, definitely if the earth blew up, that will mess up the rest of the solar system. The solar system is a delicate gravitational balance and if any planet, especially if it is removed suddenly, the whole entire system will fall apart. Maybe it won't completely fall apart, but it will definitely change. :P
Can't wait to look for new solar systems.
A moonbase by 2030... real original, Japan. We both know that building a moonbase by 2030 was my plan. Way to steal my idea. ... jerks.
Game... blouses.
No matter how badly I want to live long enough to enjoy these things, I know I won't due to how money is spent these days. I'm going to bet that we will go to war with Japan again before we build a base with them becuase of the american need for low cost Hello Kitty products.
The translation of "astronaut" is "star sailor." The literal definition of "astronaut" is a person who is trained for space flight. A "sailor" sails. In a boat. On the water.
REM Old programmers don't die. They just GOSUB without RETURN.
...the mystery of Toxic Moondust Bouncing Like Cannonballs!
Meanwhile, there'll be an ICBM... err... moon rocket ... able to carry the 50 megaton Mitsubishi Monshoujou Infinity chromodynamics research package anywhere on Earth by 2007, which might not actually be a bad idea the way things are going near Tel Armagiddo.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
You need not mention that, the contents of your post clearly demonstrate that fact.
the plans have been lost; the manufacturing isn't around;
What are you talking about? The Lost Cities of Gold? The plans are kept in several places, you have no idea how many copies of the documentation those aerospace companies keep. But, assume for a moment that the plans didn't exist. It took about ten years from the founding of NASA (or, at least, its renaming from NACA) to the first Apollo landing on the moon. Do you think our resources for developing new technologies are less now than in the 1960s?
Back in those times engineers had to draw things with pencils on paper and draftsmen redid the final drawing in ink. They had to build scale models for any non-trivial machine, because they didn't have computers for implementing models realistic enough to derive design data. They didn't have many of the more advanced materials we have today, like graphite fiber, for instance. The engineers did most of the calculations to two or three significant digits on slide rules, the decimal point position had to be calculated in the head.
You claim to be "an engineer who specializes in technology development at NASA". That certainly you are *NOT*. It may be the title of your job, perhaps, but it's certainly not what you are. Your post reminds me of an anecdote I once read. A poet was sitting in a bench in the park when inspiration came to him. He took a pad and pencil from his pocket and started writing. A guy was passing by and came to ask: "Hey, that's cool! Can you write poetry just like that?" The poet answered, "No, I have this memorized".
The Moon is an incredibly usefull platform hanging out there in the Sun's orbit. The Moon is a great place to learn how to survive in space. Without an atmosphere on the Moon, or space ships en route to other celestial bodies, we will need to learn how to survive the Sun's onslaught of energy bursts. The Moon also provides a great place to coordinate and assemble large missions to Mars. It would be a lot cheaper to ferry large components of a space ship to the Moon's Orbit and then use the Moon's prograde velocity (re: Earth) to fall back down to Earth apollo style and make a trans mars injection burn at Earth Pe. Doing this adds extra kinetic energy to the propellant you use and you actually make a more effecient ejection from the Earth system. Not to mention you wouldn't have to launch as heavy of payloads from Earth.
For those who might not think that is true, you can actually simulate this for yourself if you like by using the wonderful Orbiter Simulator program available at http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html
Be careful though, it is not a game, but a simulation. Orbiter requires a fairly steep learning curve to master the advanced navigational tools and a pretty hefty understanding of Orbital mechanics to use properly. If you are a space and physics geek like me, you will love it though.
Their first launch failed, but they found the cause (a rusted nut) and have fixed the problem and also implemented checks to catch it and many other potential problems in advance next time. They're planning to launch again in a couple months.
They are also at work on substantially larger vehicles, including a manned capsule.
If I were planning a manned space program 15-30 years out, I would be looking to buy my launch services and focus on the other parts, like what to do and how to do it once I got there.
http://start1.jpl.nasa.gov/about/derleth.cfm
Any fool can easily predict that they'll uncover an ancient dormant creature of enormous proportions during the construction of this base. Said creature will then fly to earth where it will wreak havoc on Tokyo, power plants, mass transit, and shipping at sea. Conventional weapons won't be able to stop it so we'd best get to work immediately on some type of giant defense-bot.
Since when this is news. I don't think I could even count all the times in the recent thirty years when someone was announcing they will build a base on Moon, go to Mars or just LEO. Not much happens in most cases. I'll be moved when they finally do launch anything even remotely capable of reaching the Moon. For now it's just PR, propaganda or whatever...
Since JAXA doesn't currently have a 100 ton-class heavy lift rocket or a human transportation system perhaps now is a good time for JAXA to join in with NASA on the Project Constellation rocket program.
Don't be silly. They have 24 years to complete this. All of the technology to get them to the moon is already there, so they only need the additional tech to build a space station there. Some version of this is well within reach. The reasons that we don't do things like this have more to do with money, ambition, and government red tape than they do with our ability to do so, as it is with many worthwhile ventures.
This is fantastic news, so what if it goes over schedule and over budget. So what if it is plagued with problems. It is such a fantastic idea that I wish them all the luck in the world (and moon).
Britian is more than likely to miss getting London ready for the Olympics and Japan is thinking of starting a moon base only 8 years later!
The Apollo missions were fine, just to show the world that the US was first -- but there's nothing there.
Nothing there? Are you crazy? They have an entire theme park! They have the whalers of the moon, go carts and everything!
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
they really should bring back Energia that can take up to 200tons of useful weight up in one piece.
You can't handle the truth.
Okay let me first say that NASA needs a bigger budget. THAT IS A GIVEN.
:)
I was questioning the use of the term technology. I do not believe much new technology needs to be developed. Just that we need to build the bloody stuff.
I wasn't suggesting that they use the actual heat shield from Stardust. Just that expertise to build it exists. I should also state that I also understand that creating a heat shield like that is a complex task involving hypersonic aerodynamics, thermal dynamics, and a big heaping scoop of material science.
The suit for long term use on the moon is going to take a lot of development. Let's not forget that there are health risks with the dust that I hope that someone is also looking at. Not only is in sharp and could cause lung damage but I wonder just how reactive it is. I am guessing that that there are going to a lot of chemically reactive metals that are free in that dust that we would only see in an oxide form on Earth. Not to mention that the top layer in under constant bombardment with radiation across the spectrum. My limited chemistry has me wondering just how many of the electrons will bet at a much higher energy level than we are used to dealing with. There is a lot of development to do here.
NASA flew a real reactor called SNAP-10a and the Soviets used them to power spysats. Again yes development is needed. I can see all sorts of issues with a moon based reactor. None having to do with the low gravity. I am also not a nuke but I have friends that are. Off the top of their head they think that a light water reactor is not the way to go. They suggest a liquid metal reactor with a long burn core. It seems that if you combine enough enriched uranium along with some burnable poisons you can get a core life of decades.
As I said I think the biggest problem is a lack of will. That lack of will isn't from the people at NASA but the people that write the checks.
I for one HATE the new vehicle. Or as I call it Apollo 2.0. I see it as a step backwards. I would love to see NASA take a two program path a lot like the Air Force did before WWII. Right before the war the USAAF tended to pick two different planes for each mission. One was radical and one was conservative. For fighters you had the P-40 Warhawk as the conservative and the P-39 Airacobra as the radical. For medium bombers you had the B-25 as the conservative and the B-26 as the radical. For Heavy Bombers you had the B-18 as the conservative and the B-17 as the radical. The result was that the at the start of the war they always had one that would at least do okay at the mission and sometimes two really good aircraft.
NASA should be running two programs in parallel programs one should be a tried and true vehicle and one should be a development vehicle. NASA should have kept Apollo/Skylab flying while developing the Shuttle. Once the Shuttle was in service a next development of the Shuttle should have been started followed then by a new big leap development. Of course this would cost a lot of money and people would have to learn that even when you fail, you learn.
I see NASA has having two missions. One is the space science missions but the other mission I feel has been ignored. That mission is vehicle development.
The big flaw with the Shuttle was that they had to sell it as going from the Wright Flyer to a 747 in one step. The truth is we still need to go through the Lockeed Vega, Boeing 247, and DC-3 steps of space travel.
But this is just my opinion.
I am no expert. My job is manly just fixing problems. I guess that it is in my nature to try and find solutions using what I do know, and that fails I learn more
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
...must be down. Slashdot must be doing some sort of maintenance.
Great, does that mean I'll need to learn japanese to go to the moon? adam0@247msg.com
The Japanese are prohibited from engaging in warfare. It's in their Constitution.
The US Constitution doesn't allow the government to do a lot of things that it does now at a first read. In particular, consider all the areas the federal government has its fingers in that it couldn't have touched 200 years ago. Judicial interpretation, amendments, and just plain flouting of violations happen with time.
Japan's Constitution states the following:
It's pretty clear that they can't have any standing military forces. However, it's been interpreted that they can have a force for self-defense only which seems to be directly flouting of the language of their Constitution. This force has stayed completely at home from its creation in the 1950s until recently, but nationalism has been quietly stirring in the corridors of power in Japan as well as denial of any wrongs done in WWII (see visits to Yasukuni shrine, for example), so there are voices calling for an amendment to revoke article 9.
In a move widely seen as a first step towards having a full military force, Japan sent non-combtant peacekeepers to Iraq. This really steps outside of self-defense, though it hasn't yet stepped necessarily into "belligerence." It's a way for Japan to dip its toe in the water, so to speak, and the move was widely disliked by most Japanese both because of the general unpopularity of the war and by generations that have grown up to believe that Japan is a pacifist nation.
So, don't stand too confidently by the idea that Japan has no intention of ever again waging war. The Japanese right-wing has grown in power and, while still looked at as slightly ridiculous by the majority of Japanese, has the ear of some of the LDP's current and next generation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Do not worry too much about the CEV. I am guessing that no matter who wins (boeing/l-mart), the other may elect to build what they really wanted to build (i.e. if boeing wins, I would not be surprised to see L-Mart develop their winged version).
The real issue is the rockets and the lunar transport and base. These are items that are will require a much higher level of development and costs. It is doubtful that a company will afford rockets, a CEV, AND a lunar system.
BTW, NASA wanted skylab to keep flying even though it had major issues. In fact, it was suppose to be there for the shuttle. But the shuttle took longer than it should have, and NASA did not have an altenative way to boost it. Funny thing is, you would think that NASA would have learned their lesson from that. What is needed is multiple ways to get into orbit and to other planets. Fortunately, the new rockets will take care of that shortly.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
> I was questioning the use of the term technology.
> I do not believe much new technology needs to be developed.
> Just that we need to build the bloody stuff.
Now I understand! You keep using that word, "technology."
I do not think it means what you think it means...
I was questioning the use of the term dictionary.
I do not believe many new dictionaries needs to be developed.
Just that we need to make a book that lists all the words with their meanings and stick to it
so we can have meaningful discourse!
Your comments on the new vehicle are interesting. The point, I think, of the new CEV is to make it more simple, not necessarily to take a step backwards, but to make the vehicle 100 times more reliable than the Shuttle. I can see what you mean, though. It's like NASA is going back to the 60's...the only think that reassures me is that the Apollo engineers and scientists were amazingly smart. Maybe they got it so right that their concept is still correct?
I personally love the Shuttle, and wish that the engineers had listened to the operations people while doing the design. It might have been a lot cheaper to operate and upgrade.
In Soviet Russia orbital reactors fall on you.
Seriously, that was one minute in Google. Are you at NASA still using paper encyclopeidias?
about 5-6 years ago I've seen a report on TV about plans of the US government + NASA, to build a moonbase within 70 (SEVENTY!) years... how does JAXA think they could beat US gov and NASA by fourty years, although JAXA has incredibly less experience? I think they've watched too many movies...
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
Think of the impact on all that green cheese?
Two wrongs don't make a right - but two do's make a dodo
Sure, but the reason why it's such a controversial issue today is that since the initial moon landing we have come a long way in other fields of technology and we have far more things to take into consideration when it comes to funding. Budgets have shrunk as they have been divided amongst far more research fields than they were in the 60s; massive shifts of cash to fund such a project, which many; including myself deem unnecessary would result in crippled science research back on planet earth. Once we have figured out the issues of political stability, essential fields of biotechnology, cancer and so forth, perhaps then it would be suitable to spare some finances for such a glorifying yet unnecessary endavour.
Now we must wait for our glorious leader Dice-K to take over the International Space Station and declare it the Principality of Zeon.
,o/
SIEG ZEON!
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
The CEV should be more reliable but is also less capable. It carries less cargo than the shuttle. And it has a lot less bring back capacity. I really don't like the SRB first stage. I would rather seen a new F-1 based first stage be developed but then we are back to money.
As I said we should have been flying and developing the Saturn V the entire time the Shuttle was under development. They tested improved F-1s and had several improved J-2 in the works. Think of the Telescope you could have launched with an improved Saturn!
AS to maybe the concept being right. It is right as in it will work. Is it end all and be all of space travel? I really hope not.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
And I've always wondered, why not just bring the moon crew up and back on a Shuttle? You could orbit their landing vehicle and rocket to get there and back with 2 other smaller rockets, meet up with them with the shuttle (probably not easy), assemble the vehicle and staff it with the astronauts. Then fly to the moon, land, come back leave the new ship in orbit and use the shuttle to return to earth. Subsequent trips only require a refueling of the ferry ship. It might even be faster because you can pack a lot more fuel if you do it in steps. I don't know anything about zero gravity or anything like that, but I think this would be the way to go to the moon. Is there a reason they always use 1 rocket with everything on it?
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Don't forget to link all the other crackpots, too.
This login name for sale.
perhaps now is a good time for JAXA to join in with NASA on the Project Constellation rocket program."
I don't know why they would even think about joining projects with a nationalistic, slow, inefficient and bureaucratic organisation who will later take all the credits for doing something great while 80% of the real work was done by the Japanese. Not only that, but it would also show or suggest that they are not good enough or can't pull it off alone and from a Japanese cultural view, that (failure) is not an option.
Interplanetary travel and structures is imho the race for the stars of the 21st century and I guess that just like nearly 50 years ago the Soviet-USA did, the same is going to happen but with quite some different players (I'm thinking Europe, China, Japan and maybe even India). Africa and Russia are too poor to pull something like that, Australia and the Middle East is not interested and the USA has become too bureaucratic and is involved in other moneysucking projects like Iraq and the overaged Shuttle. Quite honestly, I think even Europe has it's head too much in administrational garbage to pull something off efficiently.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I for one, welcome our new moon dwelling japanese overlords!
It turns out that 9 of the 12 people who have walked on the Moon (namely, Armstrong, Conrad, Bean, Shepard, Mitchell, Irwin, Young, Duke and Cernan) were or had been in the navy or at least graduated from a naval academy.
Now, I don't know if naval aviators consider themselves "sailors", but at least two of the above (Shepard and Young) also served aboard destroyers.
Heinlein always said that it made more sense for the navy, rather than the airforce, to be involved in a space program.
-- Alastair
I'm sorry, but this is utter crap. The solar system is not in a "delicate balance" of any kind. The gravitational attractions of the planets to each other are very small and totally outweighed by the huge flaming star in the middle.
... then the gravitational influence of Mars on the Earth is about the same that your computer exerts on you. Give or take an order of magnitude. Certainly the changes in their orbits could be detected if for some reason the laws of physics were suspended and one of the planets suddenly disappeared from this mortal plane. But I'm not sitting around trying to figure out how.
For instance, the mass of the Earth is about 6e24 kg, that of Mars is about 6e23 kg, and the Sun is 2e30 kg. If Mars and the Earth are at their closest points, then the influence of the Sun on the Earth is about 480,000 times greater than that of Mars. Inverse square law, GM, etc
This login name for sale.
Unfortunately, NASA is not a group that anyone should be partnering with right now. They're going under the knife on a nearly daily basis; and with budgets dwindling and government pressure to produce 'cool stuff,' they're axing the research in favour of PR.
Pick up a copy of this month's Astronomy magazine to see just how short-sighted the federal funding policy is. Follow the science news to see how short-sighted the internal decisions are.
After decades of driving research in the largest research community on the planet, NASA is foundering and dying. I rather doubt that they'll be able to even collect data on their existing instruments in another decade.
It's tragic, but true. Furthermore, any potential solutions need to be implemented now, and not in five years when the general public hears about this. But that won't happen.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
They won't have any people to go to the moon in 2030. They might have robots, but people will be a thing of the past. The demographics are really scary for countries like Japan, South Korea, Germany, Russia, and a whole bunch of other "westernized" nations that have apparently forgotten how to repopulate themselves and face a birth dearth that is unprecedented in world history. I guess countries like Japan are too busy thinking with planning for moon bases to be bothered with having families and children anymore.
my dislexia must be getting worse. I thought for a secong that AJAX was going to the Moon.
Filmo The Klown
Commander Konig is still there....
We can't go to the moon now. There's no sufficiently heavy lift vehicle available, and the facilities to construct one no longer exist either. There was a report out about 2 years ago that detailed what it would take just to get a heavy lift vehicle back into production - I believe they said a minimum of 5 years with lots of cash, 10 at a realistic cost.
I find this hard to believe myself, as we have several reasonable rocket engines available (Delta IV's RS-68 I think has an exceptionally good one that doesn't use LOX/H) that should be usable.
Also, the materials we have today should be far better and easier to work with than those from the 60s. Take Kevlar or better materials for spacesuits - solves that problem. We've sealed them for water, so it should be easy to tell with dye whether any seals are penetrated enough to cause issues.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
that quote is a keeper!
Stop the Slashdot Effect! Don't read the articles!
What a stupid way on wasting resources and money. All they'll achieve will result just in "heating the universe".
She had a freeking caslte on the moon and stuff till the Negaverse took over and broke it.!!!!!
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...