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When Is a Con Not a Con?
From the journals, here's some food for thought: Does a "crime" committed in an alternate world have any ramifications in the "real" world? Case in point is this article from the Gamers With Jobs site outlining the exploits of one Dentara Rask, a character in CCP's Eve Online massively multiplayer online world. According to the the article, Dentara Rask ran a
Ponzi scheme within the game, amassing a large amount of on-line wealth (700 billion ISK), and then bragging about it. The question is posed: since a Ponzi scheme in real life is a punishable criminal offense, what about when it happens in a MMORPG? Assuming there are no rules within the game environment to prevent this, how would you go about punishing someone in the real world for something they did in an artificial one? And can they be punished?
Trying to get any kind of RL punishment for this would be like calling the cops because somebody stole a stack of $500s during a game of Monopoly.
Should you also be able to sue Quake 3 players for murder? hmm?
It is a game. Unless their actions in the game had an illegal effect in the real world, the real world has no business being involved in the game. Should they be punished by the game makers? Only if they violated game rules. Should they be punished by people or governments for what they did in the game world? Only if they violated real-world rules.
And while we're at it, why not convict all those gamers of multiple counts of murder? They've killed so many people online, it's not even funny. Of course, we'd have some interesting questions of law. Is killing a troll as bad as killing a human?
If crimes committed in a game could be punished in real life, I'd be serving life sentence for mass-murder.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
This is simply another aspect of the question that philsophers have been struggling with for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Are the things that you have earned on an internet game your "property", per se? Obviously, property doesn't have to be tangible, and the product of your labors has netted you said item. In that sense, it is very much your property.
Of course, the game manufacturer still owns everything, but an argument could be made based on the value of the labor to you and the fact that they've effectively stolen YOUR time and YOUR labor.
Unfortunately, such an argument probably wouldn't hold up legally, even if it does philosophically. Fortunately, more and more safeguards are being put into these games, and if you can prove that someone was trying to con you or DID con you, you can usually get them in quite a bit of hot water, as well as getting anything you have lost back. Also, the community can make their life hell, even if there isn't enough proof that the actual game company will believe you - no item is worth never being able to get in a good group.
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
When it's part of the game. If I body-slammed someone on the street, I'd be heading to jail. If I do it on a football field, it's good play.
With few exceptions, games generally exist to provide an alternate reality. Enforcing laws from the real world into a virtual world would seem to render the whole point of the game moot. If the game's authors want to enforce certain aspects of normally accepted culture or law into the game, it would seem they would do so.
He violated the rules of a game. If the game is part of legal gambling, then that may be a crime. But this is presumably not a gambling operation. So, if it's not a gambling operation, then violating the rules is roughly like cheating at Scrabble or Monopoly.
In any case, the appropriate punishment for virtual fraud is to demand virtual restitution from the virtual character and put the virtual character into virtual prison. That is, unless the virtual world is supposed to be lawless or anarchic, in which case he did exactly what he was supposed to.
It`s a game. And the scam was clearly inside the rules of the game. So i see no need for discussion here.
> how would you go about punishing someone in the real world for
> something they did in an artificial one? And can they be punished?
Jack Thompson, this is a very transparent ruse. And no, no matter how much you have against grand theft auto, no you cannot have people punished for stealing cars in a game. Sorry.
Would this become a bi-mon-non-sci-con?
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
It's a bloody game, get real. If you want legal representation or to sue someone in a game for something that is illegal in the real world I think that you need to stop gaming NOW and get a life instead.
In-game crime => in-game punishment by in-game law enforcement.
Or in-game death by angry mob or assassin.
Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
When I was a kid I used to play "Bruce-Lee" on my ZX80 (hand-made by my father). A few years later I began karate. However, I doubt that I'd be a serial killer if I had powerful PC and played Quake, for instance.
But surely I'd be a more aggressive person.
This falls within the realm of a wholly contained artificial environment. It is up to the owners (or creators, or maintainers, or what have you) of that environment to set up "legal" codes to deal with situations like this. It has happened in Everquest, it has happened in World of Warcraft, and I'm sure that given enough abuse, it will happen in the EVE universe as well.
For the record, there used to be a vast number of "casino" scams in the Everquest world (random such-and-such a number and I'll pay you double your bet, triple your bet, etc). When a player would win at such a scam, the scammer would disconnect, keeping the player's virtual money. These people were reported en masse by the player base, and eventually, the majority of them disappeared as their accounts were suspended.
Green's Law of Debate: Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.
Get over it I say.
As many readers pointed out, his crime was only inside the game, and had nothing to do with real life. I expect the game developers can suspend his account, seeing as it is almost certainly in their Terms of Service.
Does it violate the rules of the game? After all, no one gets upset about the mass murder and genocide that occurs routinely on PvP servers in WoW. It's part of the game.
There's a difference, though. There are rules in the real world saying that something is illegal. There are no rules about it in the game world. Piracy is illegal in the real world. (I'm talking about the "arr matey!" kind, not the "RIAA" kind.) But it's permitted in the game world of EVE. Should the pirates be brought to criminal court of piracy in the spaces of EVE?
This story is just ridiculously stupid. It's a game. Only the game's rules apply. Whatever the rules set out by those who run the game are the only rules that matter.
Get conned while playing a game? Learn from it and just be glad it wasn't real.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
You kill the character. Isn't that half the point of mmorpgs?
Deleted
The stack of $500's in monopoly has no very little intrinsic value based on labor, because it only takes a couple of bucks to get a whole new stack. Therefore, someone calling the police about a stolen stack of monopoly money is doing it for only sentimental reasons, or no good reasons at all. The amount of labor it takes to get the item outside of the game is much, MUCH, less than it is inside the game.
HOWEVER, these items in online games have MASSIVE intrinisic value based on labor. If there's only one of such item known in existence, and I've put 400 hours into obtaining said item, I can't simply go and pick up another one at the dollar store. There is no equivalent conversion in the real world, and if someone steals the item, they're essentially stealing 400 hours from my life. Those 400 hours of my life have massive value, both to me, and in the real world, where it could easily translate to $5000 or more dollars.
Saying that monopoly money is analogous to a super-rare item in one of these games isn't really true.
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
What was the name of that MMORPG that would let you move game currency into the real world and vice-versa?
Crimes committed in the virtual world can be punished in the virtual world. It's the character that committed the crime, not the player.
But I guess in our overly sensitive society a brand new crime definition will be made to accomodate some pathetic whiner's claim.
If I could somehow do a scam and then transfer these winnings into tangible good / money. i.e. say via ebay then I would consider it to be a "real crime". If it is just money only used in the game then its down to the game designers / users to sort out appropriate punishment. Prehaps it could be argued that as ingame characters get better AI could the real world user be accused of murder, though that of course is another can of worms
Cheap UK and US VPS
The very fact some people here probably can't distinguish between the real and game worlds is enough to make a person weep. Let me fill you in: For example, a person giving themself to you out of love and respect (sure, and lust too) is real. WoW is not real, no matter how much you rape and pillage, or whatever you do in WoW. If you're old enough and smart enough to run a computer and yet you don't know this I beg you to seek professional help, because there's an unbelievable gamut of stuff that's passing you by; and there's no way to re-start.
When its Gencon.
God spoke to me.
I believe that, when the State of Israel had its first criminals, Ben-Gurion was actually pleased because it meant that Israel was becoming a real country, not just a club of highly educated idealists. In the same way, this is perhaps a sign of the growing capability of games. (Though please note I am not in any way comparing Israel to role playing games...)
Pining for the fjords
I seems to me it depends on whether the in game money can be converted to real money or not. If it can be then doing things in game that would be illegal to do with real money (gambling, ponzi schemes etc) are surely still illegal.
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
I would think that this is not a punishable crime except for one thing. It is possible to transfer this 700b ingame money to real life cash. What you do is buy game time cards in EVE. CCP allows people to purchase game to buy game time cards from other players for in game money. Then you take these codes and sell them on ebay. Granted, it would take a while to sell ALL 700b worth of codes (each code costs ~300mil), but when you're done you'd have roughly $120,000 USD.
Listen up folks, it is a GAME WORLD. Nothing you do there should subject you to any sort of sanction in the real one. The whole point is to be able to do things you can't do in reality. After all, in the real world you can't kill people, heck you can't even kill most things. In most games though you wade hip deep in gore. If the game system doesn't provide a 'fix' then exploiting it is just good play according to the rules of the game world.
Playing for hundreds of hours doing the grind is only one path to success, it is perfectly fair to play smarter, instead of harder. To realize that the in game obstacles might be hard but the stupidity of players is a constant and can be exploited a lot easier. And some people like the interraction with real people more than the challenges placed by the designers.
Running a Ponzi scheme depends on a steady supply of idiots, something no rule in a game is likely to dry up the supply of. Face it, they should be legal in the REAL world so long as the financials are fully disclosed. It is the fraud (like the US Social Security system) that makes any real world Ponzi scheme immoral. Run it out in the open and any person with a few brain cells still functioning would instantly see it for the scam it is and as for the others... it is immoral to let a sucker keep his money after all.
Democrat delenda est
Hopefully people learn things in games. Like how not to get swindled. I think they learned a cheep lesson.
I mean, seriously how did the "investors" in this bank think that this was legit? Real banks make their money primarily from loans, ie they collect money from savers and loan it out to others at a higher interest rate. However, banks have a lot of legal means to collect on debts. The bank also usually takes collateral.
A video game bank not run by any central authority doesn't have that power. So suppose they did try to make a legit business out of lending others money. How could they collect? I guess they could take some equipment as 'collateral" but if a player is taking the loan out to buy better equipment what is to prevent that player from reneging on the debts? He no longer needs that old equipment. And there certainly aren't repo men in the game who can take back the property for you(I guess you could destroy it, but you don't gain much). I suppose they could resort to mob style "break your thumbs" type tactics, but they would have to be a powerful player or a player with lots of allies to even do that. Plus, I don't exactly trust "Mob Savings and Loan".
So what on earth did the players who gave this person money think he was going to do with it? 10% no risk returns don 't exist in the real world(well, aside from hyperinflationary periods at any rate), so it should have been pretty obvious to anyone with half a clue what this guy was up to. Another greedy rube got fleeced(virtually at any rate). Boohoo
Monstar L
If he used illegal-in-the-real-world techniques to defraud people of "goods or services" such as game gold that had a real-world value > 0, or > whatever the legal cutoff is for fraud, then you can go after him in the real world. Otherwise, you can't.
If the law says you can only prosecute or sue if the fraud is > $50, and the gold he obtained by fraud sells on eBay for $49 or less, or has no market value, he's off the hook.
Here's an idea:
Get a few hundred gamers out there to declare a vendetta on him and make his gaming life miserable.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Games are a useful way for us to simulate life. For the young it teaches rules and basic social skills. For the teen it can be a good way to learn advance socialization. And for the older people, the working gamer for instance, it can teach that greed can lead to ones downfall, and nothing comes without a price. One hopes that a person old enough to working has learned this lesson, but we do hear stories all the time of people who have fallen for the line 'I will pay you $1000 and all you have to do is deliver this package'. Certainly something we might forgive a child for, but not an adult.
If I were one of the people that fell for the scam, I would be thankful that I learned the lesson in a simulations and not in life. I would even, perhaps, go as far as thanking the person who took the time to craft the lesson that would clearly save me the inevitable misery of having to go to my family and admit that my greed allowed a clever person to steal all my money.
Back to the top, games help us learn socialization. Part of socialization is knowing and following rules, so some games are big on rules. Part of socialization is knowing that rules are not always enforced, and therefore we must take responsibility for ourselves. We hope that games teach proper socialization, and, for instance, do not teach that crime is without consequences. OTOH, sometimes crime is without consequences. At the end of the day, though, games simply provide a safe place to run scenarios and see what might happen. In this case, a few people got 'rich', and many fold other lost it all. Isn't this what all the anti-gaming people want. A game that responsibly reflects consequences of an action? The only thing that is left is the introduction of jurisprudence, and as we all know that is the best way to ruin a game.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
One of the definitions of fraud is "Obtaining money or property by false pretenses." Problem 1 - So long as the game companies continue to own the rights to everything in the online game, it would be pretty difficult to prove that you had lost any money or property. Problem 2 - It would be very difficult to determine exactly what constitutes 'false pretenses' in an online game.
I am guilty of killing some friends in CS a few years ago... I can't live with this pain anymore.
supports gun control and abortion? Oh wait, we're not talking about that type of con?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Dear God, I hope not. If so, you could be arrested in the "real world" just for printing more Monopoly money.
This is the most idiotic thing I've heard about in a long time.
The best way to deal with something like this is to pretend that it is real (in game of course) and deal with it the way that the game world would. How about bounty hunting? How about military/mafia recruiting players to hunt him down? Keep it a game. If people fall for a scam in a game, get back at him in the game. Don't suspend his account. That's just lame. I'm sure that not many people would continue to risk their characters' well being and those that do have it coming. Also, I think that would make an interesting off shoot for people on level a billion and have nothing better to do than start a war; new game content dynamically created.
Where do we, the civilized society, draw the line and distinction between real crimes, crimes committed in a REAL PHYSICAL WORLD, and crime equivalents committed in an ELECTRONIC WORLD?
To make THAT leap, that the electronic equates that of the PHYSICAL, is an all or nothing proposition. Whether its a PONZI scheme in a MMORPG, sarcastic physical assault threats in an IM chat session with your friend, or stating the some gov. administration should DIAF, such things CAN ONLY exist on the Internet, in that electronic interactive medium. It is not until such time that such actions are eminated (sp?) into the physical world can something be called a crime.
This goes right in line with the OHIO pre-crime BS. Could the above examples of online possibilities of crimes be considered pre-meditated even though they may never occur in REAL LIFE? Physically being committed??
I personally, take life with a grain of salt. The Internet even moreso. I recall the phrase 'BUYER BEWARE', as such a thing should apply to the Internet. Life, including the Internet is most likely not as it seems. If you are taking everything online at face value, I both pity and admire your innocence. Those who this apply to, have not yet experienced the spectrum that is life. Its ups and downs, nuances, sublimalities, and underlying change.
The day certain online behavior is deemed criminal by laws that exist in the PHYSICAL WORLD, and this might have already occurred I don't know, is the day the police state no longer becomes a phrase to fear, book theme, or mental abstract, but a real living force.
I for one, weap for that future, and that reality.
...and irrelevant the topic and question are.
Better debate: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
BWilde
It solely depends on the game reglementation. The game world is sovereign and belongs to the mmporg creators thus they can enforce any law they wish on it.
\u262D = \u5350
MMORPG's are in fact actual economy units governed by their own rules.
Asking whether game crime should be punishable in real world is like asking whether crime comitted in Belgium should be punished in Australia.
The game developers have ultimate power over their world. If they want to confiscate those 700mln ISK (whatever the hell ISK is) they can do it with a mouse click, a lot easier than in "real world".
If game developers want to cooperate with police for creating "interworld" laws that apply in there and give a specialized institution the jurisdiction to enforce those in a game then ok.
It's not up to the government or whoever to mess into the games' internal affairs however. It's not a lot better than invading an actual country.
Yes you can convert virtual assets to real, but I can convert dollars to euros as well, this doesn't mean that US should mess into EU's business.
It's a GAME.
And, in a game, "normal" rules don't apply. Neither the "Law of Gravity", or "Thou shalt not Kill".
Take Grand Theft Auto.
Anyway, in this game, a Ponzi scheme was possible. And that was exploited. In chess, "en passant capture" can be exploited -- even though some players are not aware of its existence.
If some players feel "cheated", don't play. This will apply pressure to have the rules modified. As to "real world consequence"? Exactly HOW "politically correct" are you? Are you going to regulate my chess and backgammon play next?
YMMV
Ratboy
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Hey, call the cops, some dude killed me in the MMORPG of my choice! Murder! Jail! Quick!
English is not my native language. Corrections are not only welcome but encouraged. Thanks.
-Walenzack.
the fact that game money can be sold for real money, there is a tangeble loss of money.
pretty soon this is going to start hitting the courts. items in online games all have an exchange rate with real currency. fwiw: i played star wars galaxies from launch till last year. when i quit, i sold my account for 400$. that's real money, and you can bet if someone tried to jack me for my space dollars, i'd sue / get the law, whatever.
going to be really funy though when this starts becoming common law fodder.
-.no
Next time you kill a cop in GTA, you are punished for murder in real life. Get a life!
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
If I steal $10,000 worth of cocaine, I can be arrested for both possession AND grand theft.
In this case, it's up to the prosecutor to prove the gold CAN be shared and not have the account canceled, and that there IS a good way to determine it's "street value." Given how thinly-traded-in-the-real-world such gold is, and that there's no ready-open-market, a good defense lawyer could easily shoot down all but the most conservative valuations as "inflated." Still, though, if there is a black market for this, then it does have a value. On the other hand, if not enough people care about this game, or if the enforcement is good enough, then as you said it's probably worthless.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
IANAL, but it would seem that the defrauded parties could always try to take the person to civil court. For better or worse, you can sue over anything.
Of course, if you can argue that losses in the game have a real-world monetary counterpart, then any gains in that world would seem to have a real world monetary counterpart. That gets the IRS involved with issues of income tax on gains in the game.
If game gains are taxable, then perhaps they can get the Ponzi scheme operator on tax evasion -- it worked with Al Capone.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
From the journals, here's some food for thought: Does a "crime" committed in an alternate world have any ramifications in the "real" world?
Maybe.
Case in point is this article from the Gamers With Jobs site outlining the exploits of one Dentara Rask, a character in CCP's Eve Online massively multiplayer online world. According to the the article, Dentara Rask ran a Ponzi scheme within the game, amassing a large amount of on-line wealth (700 billion ISK), and then bragging about it. The question is posed: since a Ponzi scheme in real life is a punishable criminal offense, what about when it happens in a MMORPG?
Um... nothing? Murder is a punishable criminal offense in real life, but we don't dream of prosecuting people for doing it in a game.
Assuming there are no rules within the game environment to prevent this, how would you go about punishing someone in the real world for something they did in an artificial one?
You wouldn't. It's stupid to try and hold someone responsible for what they did in a video game. Again, how many of us would be in jail right now for all the people we've killed in video games?
And can they be punished?
Well, legally we can't. But there are people in Guantanamo Bay with less proof of having committed a crime.
Whoo, signature!
DesireCampbell.com
and,
how was one supposed to find that out
before it became possible to find acronyms online ???
Generally any kind of scam in game works against the player. Especially in Eve.
For example most players won't deal with people under a certain number of skill points as the points are created over time (not gametime). This means players with lots of money generally have to have the skills to show they are a legtimate character and not someones ALT.
It is possible to create an ALT by just buying a second account but it costs money. You also tend to leave a trail unless you have been planning this for sometime.
This is the third biggest Scam I have seen (I'll let someone supply the links).
Search for "A Great Scam by Nightfreeze"
1. Scammed loads of money out of people by pretending to buy a blueprint. The overall scam itself was brilliantly done and the guys where asses for doing it but at the end his friend got greedy and the leader of the scam deleted his character (after giving the cash to some newbie).
http://www.mmodig.com/?p=155
2. I don't know what caused this to happen but it was a paid hit. The person was killed, and thier corporation looted on a scale not seen since Enron.
So in the end you should be dealt with in game. I have seen other players steal from corps only to have thier clones turned into corpses scattered through the system to the point they have to quit the game.
If anything this is really a learning experience for players. Would you prefer to be scammed out of virtual cash or real cash? Remember that next time you need the wallet inspectors in game.
when it's a chille-con-carne?
Then it's yummy. What article?
'nuff said.
-- Cerebus
Anyway, if our government can't be fiscally responsible (or even fiscally ethical) in its programs, how can it expect to have moral authority over real life financial scams, much less ones in video games?
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Does corporal punishment apply to corporate entities?
Corporate death penalties can only be carried out in certain analogous ways. This punishment then affects real people from general employees to CEOs - all with varying degrees of responsibilities for the 'crime'.
As is applicable with online games, laws and punishments for transgressions can have tangible impacts on real people. Perhaps not directly and perhaps even not intended, but certainly possible.
I hope any implemented virtual 'legal' system takes such impact into account.
Time flies like an arrow -- Fruit flies like a banana
EVE is a PvP game where players are pitted against each others. Unlike most other MMOs, however, it goes way beyond killing each others.
CCP made a lot of efforts to setup complex and realistics economics in their game for the sole purpose of making all kind of swindling possible.
People ripping each others of money, corporate politics, corporate spying, economic war, thief, and of course murder are possible and encouraged in EVE. The whole game is built to enable these things to occur, and it's what people playing that game seek.
So why on earth should it be punished? You can't complain about getting conned in EVE anymore that you can complain about getting slaughtered in UT2004, because it's the reason why you play the game in the first place.
No, it is not the same.
When you bought your Monopoly game, it came in a box. The game probably takes only a couple hours to play, max. The real paper money has little or no value. When someone steals a quarter, do you call the cops? $1? $5? Probably not.
However, money in an MMO often takes effort to earn. So does Monopoly money, but that's easy come, easy go -- gone at the end of the game, in fact. MMO money can involve a huge amount of investment of real time, and it's persistant and digital.
In other words, just like any other currency.
Or is it not "real" theft when someone steals money from your bank account? That's all it is, numbers in a machine. It's all about the value we assign to it as a culture, and I'd say, except for a few assholes, most gamers assign quite a lot of value to in-game money -- just look at how much it trades for in real money. Real money is the same way -- except for the few assholes pulling these same cons in reality, most of us have some respect for the value of these green slips of paper and numbers in our bank.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Yes, people can be "punished" for this, in civil court. Once could sue based upon personal distress, as well as a few other things. It is not a _criminal_ matter, but considering that in-game commodities are gained through personal labour, one could sue.
1) Someone mentioned that stealing monopoly money is not a crime. Yes, it is. It is theft. Yes, the outcome in a court case would be tiny for that theft.
2) someone mentioned that taking a puzzle after it was assembled would not be a crime. Yes, it would, it is theft. As well, one could sue for the return of the completed puzzle, or compensation required to rebuild the completed puzzle, and if it had intrinsic value, sue on that basis.
Here's the long and short of it. One does not have to be charged with a crime, in order to be sued in civil court and assessed damages and reparation. This can come in many means, including return of the lost whatever-it-be, and punative damages (a con-job would certainly include punative damages).
So yes, someone COULD be sued for such acts... and frankly, someone could win such a suit!
This is a multifaceted failure at life by all parties involved.
The only question that remains is whom failed harder: (1) the guy that organized the scheme, (2) the players that participated in the scheme, (3) the asinine poster that wants to call real cops on (1) or (4) people on slashdot, your source for news that matters, discussing the legitimetcy of involving the police.
Nevertheless, comfort can be taken in the fact that none of the parties involved will ever reproduce.
A mage threw a fireball that was created in his hands from thin air. He is currently serving time on back to back offences against the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
In related news, a druid violated the law of conservation of mass by morphing into a 300lb bear and gryphon rider violated the laws of gravity by actually making some big fat retarded looking rat with no hair fly. These two individuals remain at large, and should be regarded as dangerous. If you see them please call the "I'm an idiot for applying the rules of reality to necessarily fictional games" hotline.
Down with in-game violators of the law!
I hate printers.
With the partial exception of rare situations like Project Entropia (which allows players to 'cash out' their in-game funds for real-world cash) or Second Life (which has a booming currency exchange and intellectual property rules), nothing actually belongs to the player in an MMOG. This is one of the reasons why Blizzard or SOE habitually ban accounts and reverse large money transfers in their games: you are breaking their rules, not the laws of whatever land their company or your PC is sitting in. If the devs have a problem with large-scale fraud (and other similar events in EVE suggest that they really don't care), then they'll make changes or bring out the ban hammer, it's as simple as that.
So, would you start to change Player Killers with murder?
That's absurd.
Game crimes require game punishments...But, a ponzi scheme, don't these people watch "real world" news once in a while?
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
A con is not a con when it's a KHAAAAAAN!!!
This guy's the limit!
A: When it's backed by a government.
"Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
Your going to have to impression all of the COV players. And every thief type character in every game system on-line. Plus, Anyone who has ever picked a lock regardless of their class. I hope some one slaps who ever came up with this bright idea and help restore the person to reality. If the guy is playing with in his class(s) or sub class than he is to be applauded for enriching the game and making it more life like. If not the he is guilty of not playing his character not of committing a crime in the real world. If you missed this concept I have presented here then please request a refund for you MMORPG games and find a new hobby that does not require you to interface with the rest of humanity and you will not find a perfect work either in RL or on-line.
OK, people are missing some very key pieces of information here.
- No ISK was stolen from anyone. *ALL* of the ISK belongs to CCP, the company that runs the game. It is bits on their servers and part of the user agreement is all of the in-game objects belong to CCP, not the players, and this is something you therefore must agree to when you play.
- When you play the game, everyone agrees to play by the rules. One of the rules is that the vast majority of in-game schemes are LEGAL. Player A took a legal action, and as a result of legal action A, the game master (CCP) reallocated the in-game objects from other players to player A. If you were the other players, tough, you played the game, you 'lost'.
- It is just plain logically silly to accept that players can blow up each other's ships and not accept that players can convince other players to hand over their in-game money. What's the difference? I'm flying around and somebody blows me up, you wouldn't suggest I call up the cops and file a vandalism report would you? So if someone convinces me to give them in-game money, and then doesn't pay me back, that's suddenly a crime?
paintball
I agree with the majority sentiment that there should be no real world punishment. Whether there is a virtual punishment or not is of little concern to me. If what he did was in the rules of the game, good for him. If the game had some fine print "spirit of fair play" or "mirrors most civil law" then his virtual punishment can be as extreme as they like. Still it doesn't matter to me one way or another.
What does matter me is the possibility to experiment with various economic rules and systems of law within these virtual worlds so as to gain insights into improving our real-economies, real-laws, and real-voting systems in the real-world. The emergence of a Ponzi scheme shows that this game's system of rules was under-defined, assuming you agree people should be prevented from setting up Ponzi (pyramid) schemes.
Letter To Iran
Also, consider all the mass death slaughter in all those online video games.
Murder has become such a common thread in a huge percentage of video games since they're very inception, that we have become annethetized to it even being there.
As perhaps the most blatant example, anyone who has played Quake online knows its a nonstop continous blood bath. You blow some one away and keep on running right through their blood and body parts flying in the air, to blow the next person away. Repeat ad infinitum.
Also, consider all the cheat codes being used... for example, in GTA San Andreas with the SA-MP multiplayer patch, playing online lots of people just give themselves hundreds of thosands all the time with cheat codes.
If I dig a hole, and it takes me 2 hours, how much is the hole worth?
If I refill the hole, and dig it again, putting in twice as much labor, is the hole now worth twice as much?
paintball
A quick search on google, and it looks like there are several going exchange rates:
$0.40 USD per $1M ISK --> 700 billion ISK = $280,000
$0.16 USD PER $1M --> 700 billion ISK = $112,000
So, it seems his con has netted him something of value (measurable in us dollars), so I think he should be prosecuted.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Why not just have the game company give the stuff back to you? It's all virtual after all. If you can prove it to the level of being able to call the cops.. you can prove it to the level of getting the company to give you back your stuff and then maybe kick the offending player off the game for cheating (presuming it really was cheating otherwise you're SOL). It's a game .. you agreed to the rules. It's not real life!! If someone beats you in a game you want the law to be involved?
.. maybe you can show a video of the baseball game and get someone arrested for striking you out when he really threw a ball (wasted many hours of your time invested in trying to win the world series)?
Can this apply to cheating in baseball/basketball
Did you know that in this game you can also kill people???? Won't someone think of the children??? If it is legal in the physical world to "kill" someone in the game, then why would it be illegal in the physical world to steal "money" that has no official worth in the physical world? It may be a violation of terms of service punishable by banning, but it certainly doesn't seem like an offense that should be prosecuted by any government in the offline world.
From what little I know, this type of activity seems par for the course in Eve online. I remember reading about an event that occured last year where a group infiltrated another group and basically acted as undercover agents. They got into the highest ranks of the group then killed the CEO, destroyed ships and took over some assets.
Call me crazy, but that sounded pretty cool to me. It sounded much cooler than any scripted or planned event I've heard about in any other online game. So does this latest event. If you have created a game where the players can create such interesting events rather than have to artificially create them, it sounds like you've done something right.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Simple question: Do you think that virtual income, ISK, gold, etc, should be taxed? If not, then there should be no punishment for this other than what the game developers decide to do.
Fuck, this is supposed to be one of the draws of EVE! It's a game where the devs don't hold your hand and baby you! Anything can happen.
what do you do if someone kills your level 69 harcore barbarian?
ya can't apply the "LAW" in a game just cause you got burnt.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
There is an ancient Chinese(?) proverb of a man who would stand next to his neighbor's campfire when he was cooking meat and eat his bowl of rice (so the plain rice would taste better). His neighbor brought him to court for stealing the smell of his meat.
The judge pronounced that it was indeed a crime, and ordered the "thief" to bring his pitiful life savings of a few coins to the court house. Once there, he then ordered the poor man to drop the coins from one hand to the other. Thereby paying the neighbor for the smell of his meat with the sound of his money.
Maybe it was a "real" crime, but it was in a "real game" and should be dealt with there. If the crime had real world consequences, then so will the in-game "punishment".
-lwh
In Vegas, the rule is, 'Don't take other people's chips'.
In EVE Online, the rule is 'If you can convince some idiot to give you their chips if you promise to give them more chips later, we won't do anything if you're lying.' That's the rule.
Here's the other part where the analogy breaks down: The Casino, who owns the chips, is under a legal obligation to give you their cash value if you want to trade them in. Obviously, CCP is under no obligation to give you real money for your in-game currency. Maybe, if CCP promised to give you real cash in exchange for your in-game currency, you MIGHT have a point. But they are not.
Let's put this another way - there is proably hundreds of trillions of ISK in the EVE environment. What if, tomorrow, CCP decided that they didn't want to run EVE anymore, and pulled the plug on the servers and refund any unused subscriptions? Would any rational person think the players could sue CCP for the loss of their in-game assets? Of course not. Why? Because those assets DO NOT BELONG TO THE PLAYERS IN THE FIRST PLACE!
CC will let you, using game mechanics, control certain objects in the game. They expressly will not let you transfer the in-game objects outside of the game mechanics, and expressly specify that they own the objects. Will people pay moey for those objects? Sure. Does that mean you've suffered a monetary loss if control is taken away from you through game mechanics? NO! The only way the in-game objects are worth money to you is if you STEAL THEM FIRST! Trying to portray this as theft would be like saying 'I was going to steal that car, but that other guy stole the car first! He owes me!'
A better question would be, could you be arrested for theft for selling CCP's in-game objects in violation of the uer agreement?
paintball
This stikes me as quite obvious. You play by the rules of any "society" in which you take part, or you are subject to the punishments which that society can inflict upon you. If I wish to remain a free citizen of Canada, I play by certain rules. If I break them, they can punish me within the context of my country. If I want to remain a citizen, and remain free, I play by the rules.
If I wish to remain an unpunished citizen of an online society, I play by the rules. Otherwise I'm punished or expelled.
In the real world, different societies/countries have agreement between them, involving extradition and such for crimes. I guess in theory one could have agreements between a gaming society and real world societies, but always taking into account "it is just a game."
The only major difference I see is that citizenship in a certain country involves certain real and physical things (your body, your fingerprints, your photo, etc.) The degree of abuse of an online society really equates to the degree of anonymity afforded and the extent they can contact/punish you. Given that your only real "committment" to an online game is agreeing to any enforcable EULA and their ability to charge your credit card (only to the extent you have agreed upon), the abuse will likely continue.
Now, if part of signing up to an online society involved agreeing that "said company can charge your company up to $1000 for damages incurred within the game for behaviour that breaks rules in this agreement", things might be a little less crazy. But most users would probably run away from such a thing in a EULA (if they even read it).
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
First truly insightful post I've seen in this discussion. Finally, some sanity.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
In character action = in character consequence.
I think there should be an in character police/town guard/law enforcement faction of some sort that should punish in character crimes with appropriate in character punishments. Preferably the police force would consist of other players rather than mobs.
It's interesting that every comment on this story addresses the issue of whether the Eve-thief should be punished in the Real World or not.
The real issue is whether immoral behavior is OK just because it's in a game. I'm not talking about role-playing here. If you're playing the role of a violent barbarian who cuts the heads off of innocent peasants, that's one thing. But in this case, a player represented himself as a decent person, with a corporation and business plan that would help others. He lied about what he was doing and stole a bunch of money. Hurt the enjoyment of hundreds of other players. He is garbage, knowing that he could do something to hurt others and not be punished for it. That is despicable.
Real world or vurt, bad is bad. I don't believe for a moment that this player should be punished in the real world. But as a dedicated player of Eve, I want to see this player attacked and punished at every turn. I hope that his plans and desires (game-wise) are thwarted, every step of the way.
Fair is fair.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I can't believe this is even an issue.
People!!!!!! Get up and walk away from your keyboard and get some freaking sunshine!!!!!!
There's this really cool thing out there in the real world called having a life..........
Sheesh!
It is often said, if you loan $20 to someone and you never see them again, then it was money well spent.
Does a "crime" committed in an alternate world have any ramifications in the "real" world?
No.
I hope this helps.
Hey, if the game includes a thief class, aren't you supposed to play one when ROLE-PLAYING??????
Seriously, if you choose to waste your life complaining over a random bit of energy that you wasted even more of your life trying to get and you get it yoinked in a GAME, your loss.
Now, a ponzi scheme in-game might as well be expected from someone playing as a thief or robber or whatever dishonorable thing they're choosing to roleplay. As for a ponzi-scheme in game, hey, that's game currency, if you fall for such social engineering on the internet, perhaps you should get off the internet in order to protect yourself, or you should inform the game admins about the ponzi-scheme happening so they can act upon it. If they can take that amassed wealth in game and sell it for real currency on ebay, if that's punishable by banning because of a violation of TOS, that's on the company, not the law, I would think. Maybe the company could ban and sue for a breach of contract (which includes TOS, which is a contract of behavior you agree to, and is covered by some law,) and take the real money and the other money back. I don't know how far that could go in reality, but there are possibilities.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I just destroyed the whole world in my mind.
Actually, one dollar is about 70 ISK (Icelandic Kroners)
So 700 billion ISK is about 10 billion dollars!
Yes, I'm from Iceland.
Ah no, because i can seperate reality from fantasy, sometimes lol I just finished playing Need for Speed online and during the game I lost control of my car and crashed into another online player's car. I sure hope my reality car insurance doesn't drop me after that incident. Attempting to bring the fantasy worlds of video games into reality is a very dangerous thing to do. Governments/Law makers will not just bring one aspect of a game and make it a crime, they will bring everything from a game that they wish and make it a crime. The result is no more video games since I can't think of one video game at the moment that wouldn't be breaking some kind of law, and I can't imagine where we will find all the prison space for the games.
in case anybody was wondering "what's a ponzi scheme?",
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying abnormally high returns ("profits") to investors out of the money paid in by subsequent investors, rather than from net revenues generated by any real business.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
living the dream
Finally someone who gets it.
;). After all, democratically elected governments are still "rogue" unless the US approves of them...
All those people saying it's not real have no idea what their own money is.
That said the countries the game is run in will probably want to have some say.
AND even if the US shouldn't mess with the EU's business, it will
Introduce that low life to business end of a 12 gauge, online of course. Doing that in the real world would land you in the slammer for good.
Think of all the one-of-a-kind, endangered species that are being slaughtered at this very minute! Think of the poor Balrogs! Think of the poor Dragons!! Can't we just all get along?
Kill another character in a MMPORG = murder in real life?
Oh my god shut the hell up. Its a GAME, you are supposed to be able to do stuff in games that would get you arrested IRL, and if you suddenly cant then what the hell is the point of having the game in the first place. Piss off.
On the surface the question seems silly. However, dig deeper and you're left with a series of questions each harder than the last.
On one hand, it's just markers in a game. The markers aren't even objects, just values in a variable somewhere.
However, SOME in-game virtual currencies have been exchanged with real money. From that, we know that there exists a subset of people who grant it real world value. Amongst those people, I might have someone pay me in GP to fix their car. I might then pay someone in GP to mow my lawn. Now it's starting to look like real-world money.
Meanwhile, real-world money looks a LOT like a virtual currency. For example, it's been decades since the US$ was backed by anything at all except faith in the federal government. When it's deposited in a bank account, it too is just a value in a variable. A great deal of money flows through the economy without ever being realized as cash at all. Paycheck gets direct deposited, gets transferred to the credit card, gets spent at the store, gets direct deposited into an employee's account.
So, if the virtual currency can have a value in the real world, then isn't stealing it from someone a real-world crime (since they lose value they could use in the real world). If so, that brings many more questions. Is it taxable? Is a forfiture in the virtual world a valid repayment for a real-world tort?
Of course, in practice, even if it is taxable, many governments will want to avoid doing so as otherwise they would be granting a legal legitimacy to a currency they don't control.
Of course, if we choose to consider in-game currency to have real value, we have to ask ourselves what to do about other in-game actions. Games often have very different 'laws' and social norms. They won't be much fun if we decide to apply real-world laws to them. It's not realistic to suffer a real-life penelty for behaving as expected in-game.
There's no difference between "real" money, monopoly money and this "super rare item". They are all bits of data which reside on computers somewhere. They can all be replicated a million times at the press of a key.
There is NO SUCH THING AS INTRINSIC VALUE. There is only supply and demand, this applies to "real" money just as much as it applies to monopoly money and "super rare items".
Deleted
A large reason for playing GAMES is to escape reality and do things which aren't possible in real life. Why do you think so many avitars are practicly the opposite of their controls?
-Tim Louden
Their value might be similar to someone stealing poker chips in a casino; or, maybe more realistically, say, line-jumping your spot in a queue for some important event.
You have something that has some value. In the first case, real monetary value. In the other case, it has a value based on the fact that it takes time and presence to get that position (in the first case would be theft, the second, mopst likely "creating a disturbance").
If the item - real or electronic - can be translated into real value (first good argument for the prosecutor to make) then it's theft. And, as a sop to the anti-RIAA among us (me too!) if you have lost it when the other person gains it...
A similar comparison might be the guy collecting cash or recyclables in the name of charity for personal use - or even spare change; each donation may be trivial, but there's no doubt a crime is happening overall.
Running one of those chain letter things is illegal, but a lot of the prosecution is due to the use of the mail. Rarely is something like that prosecuted if the amount is trivial, if it is a local non-mail event, but only because it's hard to get it big enough to pay - if the doantion is say, $1, then you got to find $1000 suckers in your immediate circle to get a passable payoff. Long before that the pool of suckers would be exhausted, and some know-it-all would (a) see thru the scheme and (b) tell everyone it's illegal.
Think of this as an exercise in anarchy - this is the next question. When you agree to play a game like football or hockey, you agree to allow people to slam into you and tackle you, normally a case of assault. While prosecutions have happened (thinking of hockey) they are for extreme actions well outside the rules of the game. Illegal hits are not prosecuted, but clubbing someone on the head with a hockey stick, from behind, without warning, hard enough to cause serious damage - that's prosecuted.
Similarly, if you have signed up for a game where you know there is no supervision within the virtual universe, where your character can be assaulted, "killed", robbed, conned, bankrupted and enslaved - if that's part of the game what's your complaint? "That guy's to good for me to play against"? Too clever? Hah! If the game designers allow this as a flaw, that's their problem and yours for signing up. To complain that in a world of unsupervised anarchy, someone has taken advantage of that fact to pull a technical con rather than a swords-and-spells assault sounds like a cry-baby tactic.
Soon, we'll have OSHA and the Human Rights act in all virtual universes. "Your quest team is not gender balanced." "Little people are underrepresented". "Blades cannot exceed 32 inches and must not be sharpened beyond butter-knife level; axes cannot weigh more that 20 pounds..."; "You may apply to the Supreme Ghoul Court if you feel your character should have their intelligence number brought up to the group average..."
This sounds more like a job for vigilante action. Everybody gang up on the villain, and soon no more problem...
We have Social Security, Medicare, and the list goes on...
So when you're the law, anything you want is legal, even if it's a total fraud.
I'm sure nearly all of us have killed an online character (intentionaly or otherwise), does that mean I'm looking at 9 to life? No.
Best way to deal with it is with game police that punish characters in the game if they are caught.
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
IT'S A GAME!
Come on I've played monopoly games that lasted for many LONG hours. If someone steals a few thousand dollars from my pile while I'm taking a leak then they are cheaters not criminals. What they took involved hours of investment. The only difference is a matter of degrees. In one case someone wasted 4 hours playing monopoly with a cheater and in the other someone wasted hundreds of hours geeking out online and got pwnd! Maybe he should waste hundreds more hours crusading for reform and a working justice system in his mmorpg... OR maybe he should get out into the real world and get laid.
Can't your character be killed in these games? Would the killer be a murderer?
Fell for a ponzi scheme!! HA! Well maybe the poor sucker learned his lesson and won't fall for one in the real world! HAHAHAHHAHHhahhahahahAHAHAHAH!!!!
-- QED
MMORPGs are no countries. They are owned by someone. Said someone makes the rules. And enforces the rules.
If a con scheme is not allowed in the game, it will be punished. If it is allowed, it will not. At the whim of the owner. Don't like it? Don't play it. Or, at least, don't run con schemes.
Case closed.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
How I hate how Americans seem to think their governments' taxation/justice department has jurisdiction anywhere other than their own country!
From the video of the "confession" he sounds british, the game is owned by a finnish company, and what's more - who cares? If he's not broken any game rules, then he shouldn't be punished.
Sure, I'm not condoning his actions - scamming people is evil(tm) but really folks, it's just a game.
Get over it
I guess we should now charge everyone who's ever played a first person shooter with murder then. I mean just think about it, killing someone is punishable in real life, so why not in a video game?
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Does a "crime" committed in an alternate world have any ramifications in the "real" world?
No.
In a game like EVE, where there is no officially accepted exchange rate with a real currency, no defrauding of actual money can technically take place, making it a poor case for considering this question.
...), it is possible to defraud people of what could be considered real money.
As long as the player's actions do not violate the stated rules of the game, there should be no punishment virtual or otherwise. If the player's actions violate the rules but no real money was stolen, the game company can decide on any punishment.
Now in games that do have an interface with real money (Entropia Universe, Second Life,
If the money was stolen against the rules, the company would clearly be liable to the victims and be justified in punishing the culprit as far as their game authority extends (but could they claim any existing in-game money of the player without real world restitution?). This would depend largely on the agreements and contracts on which the game is based.
But what if the money was stolen in a way not against the rules? Then maybe the victims could sue the game company, but probably not the thief. But even here, the game company could probably exclude relatively small amounts of per-player liability.
Maybe they could say that they take no responsibility for money you deposit in the game at all, but that wouldn't encourage investment. Ultimately, if games wish to pursue these virtual currency business models, they will have to grow investor confidence by demonstrating that they can deal with fraud effectively.
Eve online is a game that has simple rules: In-game anything goes. Waawaa, carebears.
I suppose you could punish him.
First, find out who he really is. This may entail socializing with him in the game. Pretend to be his friend. Gain his trust. Don't be shy about spending game resources to further this end. After all, your goal is to exact punishment in the real world. In game costs are incidental to this goal.
Over time, you may be able to extract some real world information from him. You know, things like where he lives, where his kids go to school, that kind of stuff.
Then, when the time is right, try to arrange a face to face meeting. Choose an an isolated place. Abandoned factories are ideal; if things go all pear shaped, you'll want some room to maneuver. Don't forget to pick his kids up at school on the way to the meeting.
A republic cannot succeed till it contains a certain body of men imbued with the principles of justice and honour.
Just what I was going to say! :-)
How about calling it a 'pwnzi' scheme?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
It makes no sense to punish them in meatspace. Punish them in cyberspace instead.
Of course, all they have to do to get out of prison is open another account, but that's revenue, so it's all good.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think there are already far too many places the law has weaseled its way into, and ambulance chasers looking for an opportunity to make money out of games is probably a step too far. Games are mostly warfare substitutes, and people are allowed to do things in many games which they are not allowed to do outside, by convention and agreement. This extends to gambling: I don't know what the legal situation is now but when I grew up, gambling debts could not be legally recovered under English law. Given strong laws and policing covering damage to property and person, this was probably about as good a system as you could get.
The concept that in-game currencies have some measurable value outside the game should also be firmly stamped on. That is what people choose to do, but there is a case for the legal system ignoring it. Games are full of dubious practices, such as "amateurs" who accumulate trust funds, "appearance" fees, and a society which rewards games players out of all proportion (for US readers, I am a middle class Brit, and for us "sports" means hunting, shooting and fishing and everything else is games). I suspect the rule should be that nobody who voluntarily takes part in a game should have any legal comeback other than for personal injury arising from negligence or recklessness. But it should be very clear that everybody involved has signed up to the game and it occurs in a place where non-participants will not accidentally become involved.
Pining for the fjords
The whole point in playing games is to provide an arena to explore things you wouldnt normaly do in real life.
After all robbing a bank in City of Villians doesnt mean you should be jailed.
Lets face it, EVE is responsible for allowing people to start virtual banks without any regulations
Every game or virtual reality designates its own set of rules for playing within that system, and lets face it , all these online games are all based in capitlalism anyways, and therefore there companies wont change anything unless it effect the bottom line
While this scheme is illegal in the real world, in this virtual world there are obviously no rules programmed in, else he would never have been able to pull off this scam.
So do you blame the character living in the universe, or the creators of the universe for allowing this to happen?
Both?
Lets face it, its not cheating, its not cool, but its a part of the game dynamic
back in the day we didnt have no old school
People are getting all upset about con games milking virtual players out of virtual money, but how about crimes that we consider much worse in real life? Murdering civilians, pillaging villages, robbing estates, overthrowing governments - these are all very common in MMOs, but nobody is suggesting that people be prosecuted for these crimes in real life (at least I hope they aren't).
Does no one remember this?
None of the victims chose to pursue legal recourse, but if they had, I have no doubt some slimy lawyer would of gotten a decent settlement on the off chance a jury might go their way.
Just because no real money was exchanged doesn't mean fraud and intentional emotional injury didn't occur. "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" got OJ off, how much money could a lawyer suck out with something even more simple? Time = Money, and this guy = an asshole.
This type of thing will eventually go to court, it is only a matter of time. Whether it is this paticular guy or not remains to be seen.
I'll support prosecuting Dentara Rask for fraud, but only if all of his "victims" are prosecuted for income tax evasion for failing to report their ISK's as income.
Either ISK's have real world value or they don't. The "victims" can't have it one way when it's convenient and the other way when it's not.
I must admit, I've conned some players in that game... Back in beta, mind you. I made off with a few million isk, just by convincing someone to do a few things he shouldn't have. I got a scapegoat, a few industrial ships filled with gear, some blueprints for valuable items, and cheers of praise from my corporation. In real life, it'd be a crime I was caught. In a MMOG, it'd be looked down upon if the truth came to light. I wasn't caught. I made off like a bandit. The value of something is dictated by the market demand for it. If something is desirable, it has value. Stealing something in a game is still bad, but it affects a much smaller demographic. Since there's no real, tangible, in-game legal system, nothing can be done.
It should be taxed if and when you exchange it for real money.
Before that, you should only be taxed on the actual value of exchanged currency, which is US$ 0.0 (zero point nothing)
I'm pressing charges on Bowser for kidnapping the Princess.
Someone wrote about the difficulties inherent to investment banking. Though I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that it is a very unlucky or unskilled player who would not double his initial resources in 6 months of game-time, or perhaps a few weeks of real time. In real life, if most businesses could acheive those kind of growth rates, then the demand for money would push interest rates through the roof. I would hence have thought that investment banking was an extremely obvious and lucrative (legitimate) profession for EVE.
As regards collecting on loans, then security is one way to do it, or perhaps 3rd party sums held in escrow. But this is inefficient. However, a better method is available; the market already provides a method of punishing defaulters through placing a bounty on their heads. The infamous scene from the Mos Eisley Cantina can now be lovingly recreated by aspiring players all over the galaxy... Certainly, with interest rates in high double figures, genorous bounties could be offered against those foolish enough to consider reneging on their debts. Are there interesting implications for in-world bankruptcy, debtors prison, or perhaps indentured servitude arising from catastrophic business ventures?
One final point: Someone made a very good point that if this is (RW) fraud, then blowing up someone's ship must count as (RW) vandalism, because it deprives them of imaginary wealth through non-consensual means too. This is obviously absurd; the EULA, clearly holds ultimate ownership of all game assets back with the game provider (so no theft, as nothing changes ownership). The comparison with monopoly money or scrip is slightly misleading in this instance. The fraudster (or anyone else for tha matter) DO NOT OWN THE ISK they control in EVE and cannot legitimately sell title or use of them. The fact that it _happens_ is besides the point; such a contract would be unenforcable. It would be akin to selling you a car that I have only been leant for the afternoon.
And the "labour theory of value" excursion was marxist twaddle too, but other economists spotted that first.
It seems like a lot of the commenters here are missing the point. They say, "Well, I *murder* in games all the time, so what's the big deal about a Ponzi scheme?" but it's not true. You're not "murdering" in Quake when you shoot someone. The person on the other computer is still alive after you "kill" their in-game character. It's not murder because there is no real world effect from your actions, only an in-game effect.
On the other hand, if you run a Ponzi scheme in a game world, the other players really do lose their (in-game) money. The trade takes place in-game, but it has the real world effect of leaving the victim without in-game currency. Now, given that a lot of in-game currencies are tradable for real world money, this works out to look just like any other kind of taking something of value from another person. If I were to go into a game and say, "Send me some diamonds, and I'll send you something good," you're not going to say, "Oh, it's not fraud, because 'diamonds' aren't really money." No, diamonds aren't cash, but you can trade them for cash or anything else. Contrarily, imagine a person conducting a Ponzi scheme mostly in the real world, who says at the last minute, "Oh for this scheme, don't give me regular cash. Give me [in-game currency] worth the same amount instead." Does merely changing the item used as a proxy for cash make what would ordinarily be illegal, legal? That seems unlikely.
People also keep saying, "It's like stealing Monopoly money," but that doesn't even make sense as a support for their position, since stealing Monopoly money is a crime, depending on what's meant by "stealing" it. If during the game when I look away, you take my money and put it in your stack, that's not a crime; it's just cheating. But if when we finish the game, you sneakily take my Monopoly dollars back to your house and add them to your collect, that is stealing, because you've permanently taken something of mine without my permission. Obviously, it's only petty theft, since Monopoly money isn't worth much more than the paper it's printed on, but it's worth something.
Now, the issue on top of this is that when players agree to play a game, they agree to follow certain rules which are very different from the rules we follow in real life. If me and my buddies all agreed to it, we could say that when we see each other in the streets, we can challenge each other to a Paper-Rock-Scissors battle, and the loser pays the winner a dollar. That's fine; we're adults, and that's something we could agree to do. In game PvP is basically the same as that agreement. You agree that if your character loses a match to some other character, you'll let the host server give that person some virtual items. In fact, one of the conditions of using the host server at all is agreeing to abide by this rule. However, do you also agree that if someone commits an act that is indistinguishable from real world fraud, that you'll let that person keep what he takes from you? That's a much more difficult question, one that should preferably be set out ahead of time in the EULA. If the EULA doesn't specify whether fraud-like actions are OK or not, then the question is an open one for the courts to decide.
You guys managed to mod up all the wrong crap. As far as I can see nobody even read the article. Guess everyone with a brain ran out.
The question of rules within an olnine environment and the reality of virtual crime came up in the early ninties: http://www.ludd.luth.se/mud/aber/articles/village_ voice.html
(This is a very good read, for those that don't know the story).
Is there anything in the game against a guy playing an evil mastermind of crime? Hey, guys, you don't mind going around killing orcs or whatever, but you do mind when something happens to YOU? Ok, it was something that REALLY sucked, and, guess what? You *let* yourself be sucked, by the rules of the game. It's a GAME, and you LOST.
You feel cheated? Did the guy use some kind of software to take illegal advantage in-game? Did he use exploits in the game? Did he do anything except play by the rules of the game? If he didn't, guess what?, he didn't cheat. He deceived all of you fair and square. Furthermore, I bet there were plenty people advising against putting your money there because there was no guarantees.
Next, whiny boys will start complaining to the FBI that they were killed on Counter Strike. Multiple times. With head shots.
(8-DCS)
Little Johnny Everykid of Bumblefuck, NE has been charged with several million counts of various felony charges, including murder, grand theft auto, grand larceny, mayhem, racketeering as well as several thousands of misdemeanor charges including malicious mischief, vandalism, and petty theft.
One of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City's most ardent fans, Johnny played the game nearly nonstop for two years after its initial release. Since in-game crime is now treated in the same manner as actual crime, the youngster, who is all of thirteen years old, now faces nearly 3 million consecutive life sentences for accrued in-game criminal activities.
Johnny's lawyer, Joe Shyster, of the firm Wynken, Blynken, and Nod, has submitted briefs to the court stating that most of the charges should be dropped. Shyster said that since the activities occurred in game in the year 1986, the statute of limitations on most of them has been expired at least 2 years.
Additionally, since most of the activities occurred within the confines of Vice City proper, that certain jurisdictional issues apply. Shyster claims that most of the charges can technically only be brought by the legal apparatus of Vice City, and that the court is required to gain the prosecutorial interest of the district attorney of Vice City in order to have a case.
Since Vice City and its DA are fictitious, Shyster predicts that most of the charges will be dropped within the next week.
Oh crap where am I going to hide the corpses of all these night elves I just ganked, I'm to pretty go away for murder!!
The rarity of ingame items is subject to change at any time. The developer can go "Hmmm, those are more expensive than we think the should be, let's increase the supply," and suddenly your valuable "rare" stuff is as cheap, and common, as dirt. I've seen it happen in World of Warcraft. There is an item, "Pristine Black Diamond" that you can get only from beating up monsters or buying them from players that have. Well I remember back around a year ago the first one I'd ever seen dropped and a friend got it. He was unsure of it's worth and so went to where players congregate and announced that he wanted to sell it. In the end it went for 450 gold, which is he game's major currency, a rather large sum.
Now they are listed on the auction house for 1-3 gold. Less than 1/100th of the price. The reason is they are a prerequisite of other things and it was making those things too expensive. So Blizzard decided to massively ratchet up the supply. They drop far more often and thus aren't in great demand.
Real world economics just don't apply to virtual worlds since they are simplifications of reality (in WoW for example things never break on a permanent basis) and since the dynamic can be altered at any time. If oil is scarce in the real world I can't just make it appear out of no where to lower the price. However in a game I can go "Hmm that's to expensive, let's triple the supply" and ti just happens, and will keep happening so long as I wish it to.
In this analogy, the ISK and the casino chip are essentially a one-to-one. They are both currencies earned in games provided by a service (CPP vs. casino) and both have a specialized way of converting the object directly to other services (more time in the Eve game or "comps" at the casino). In both cases, both services "own" the abstract currency (ISK vs. chips). Certainly in the case of the casino, any means of converting the abstract currency into real cash will result in taxation (in the casino, on eBay, or otherwise). In their abstract state as chips, if there is a well-defined means of converting it to cash, you could probably make a legal case if you were scammed, but that isn't clear. While online games are not viewed as casinos, we could still probably learn a lot from simply observing legal precedents of how casinos operate to learn what the legal future of currency exchange in online games might become.
i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
What law has been broken?
What jurisdiction was it broken in?
Are you absolutely certain there's a similar law against it there, too?
Be glad it wasn't real money you got suckered out of and quit whining.
Selling ISK on ebay directly is against the EULA, however it is not against EULA to purchase game-cards for isk and sell those for local currency.
One of the rules is that the vast majority of in-game schemes are LEGAL
It's not as black and white as you make out. Scamming is allowed within the games rules, so any scams in-game that do not exploit a bug is legit. However scamming outside the game; on the eve-online forums or elsewhere is NOT legal. EIB ran much of its scam on the forums and it's own web-site which means the scam it occured outside as much outside the game and the rules for that are much less clear.
"You can never cheat an honest man" (or woman.)
Communism is neither a form of government, nor is a communist state inherently single-party. Your statement would be equally (il)logical by saying "...one more party than environmentalism."
There is no English word for a single-party state; only the phrase itself. I realize it isn't as catchy as the current incarnation of your sig, but at least it makes sense.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
This is retarded on so many levels.
For one, the fact that people pay real world money to boost their character is ridiculous. Have these people no pride in achieving things on their own? Call me old-fashioned but I find it wholly unfulfilling to "win" at something when I have an unfair advantage over my opponent. Like when I was a kid playing my NES, if I had a controller that supports auto-rapid-fire by holding down a button, and I used it to whoop ass on people who had normal controllers, that wasn't very fun as I didn't really "beat" them.
The only victims here are the idiots who allowed themselves to be scammed, and the even bigger idiots who pay real-world money for in-game stats. The 2nd group is only a victim in that the existence of these scams could arguably drive up the costs of the items, or they could get scammed out of stuff they paid real money for. But who cares about them? They're idiots and anything that discourages them from paying real money to boost their character is a good thing for the game. The game will be better if there's no reason for people to play it other than for fun. Once there is real money involved, you get a bunch of opportunists who could care less about the game fucking it up for everyone else. Hopefully the fact that people are now playing the game solely to scam these morons out of their in-game cash/items and then sell it back to them will disturb them enough to realize they shouldn't be spending real money on this shit. Once they stop spending real money, there will be less scamming because there is no longer a real world payout.
In-game consequences for in-game violations, civil consequences for civil violations, criminal consequences for criminal violations.
In Second Life, one can buy Lindens for real money. One can also sell the Lindens back for real money. Given the rules of Second Life, it is not a one-and-one relationship like a casino chip:
> Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available
> for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion,
> and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.
Other parts of the service agreement also say everything is at the discression of Linden Labs. But it is possible to gain intellectual property and even cash and real property by some means.
Scenario 1: Person runs Ponsai scheme. Person collects $1T Lindens through Ponsai.
Consequenses: In-game effects only. Linden Labs could seize the $1T Lindens, cancel the account, or ban all the person's accounts, but not sue or procesute. Where are the damages for a lawsuit? Where is the harm to society?
Scenario 2: Person runs Ponsai scheme. Person collects Lindens, but promptly sells all Lindens for USD$10,000 cash.
Consequenses: Civil. Linden Labs sues for $10,000 plus legal fees and the cost to recover the funds to players who lost real money. It's an arguable violation of the users agreement. Criminal? It was a fraud committed within game which had real cash consequenses. There is definite harm committed between persons here, but where is the harm to society? If everyone did this, where would we be? Second Life would hit the bit-bucket, that's the worst consequense I can see, denying society of a single game and denying Linden of income (or perhaps all MMORPG's). That's bad, but it's not criminal, it's a problem between the MMORPG operators and the people who play them only.
Scenario 3: Well, I'm trying to think of something that could happen in-game which results in real criminal acts, I think our imaginations can run wild here. I don't know, hit contracts through SL to gain Lindens?
Harm to society for us today is killing and other bodily harm, and damage or theft of each other's property. The yardstick before we pass criminal legislation is, if everyone did this, where would society be? If everyone struck or killed each other to solve disagreements, only physically strong people will get by in life. If everyone steals cars to get a car, then no one would buy cars. If everyone committed ID theft as their main source of income, then money would have no meaning. Sex acts (condoms were once banned) and recreational drugs are something which have change recently in our history, at one time we judged one way, then we judged another, and most of us have recent enough experience to see what is happening.
I highly doubt any DA or prosecutor would touch such a thing.
The in-game money he took through fraud has real-world value; it can be auctioned off on e-bay for example. That means he used deception to take something of material worth - the text book definition of fraud.
Clear, Dark Skies
I've "murdered" all kinds of people and creatures in online games. Can you think of the sentence I'd revieve!?
Of course, a "confidence game" is unrelated to a "convention/conference", but somehow they both get shortened to "con".
Argh. --- that one's a conference/convention, but wishes to distance itself from your conventional perceptions of same.
All discussion on relative "values" aside, I felt the real point is the morality, the psychological side of the issue. If you were a hiring from a pool and you learned that an applicant stole items or cheated seriously in an MMOG (even if it wasn't truly illegal in any sense of the word) would you hire them? I wouldn't. Because it speaks clearly to their character and personality. If someone feels it's ok to steal from someone online, I don't trust them to be completely honest IRL.
While I'm all for civil liberties and freedoms, I can't wait for the internet to evolve to where individuals are accountable for what we do and say online just like we are in the "real" world. A thief is a thief, someone without respect for others, be it a mugger in a dark ally or joe whitebread jacked into a MMOG.
What's funny to me about this is that this is a Role-Playing game, so people should expect that some people playing the game may be playing a role of someone actively trying to rip you off. A big part of these games is about imagining yourself in this alternate world. People expect others might try to kill them and generally deal with it when it happens. When someone rips you off in the game, why would you take that any more seriously than if they killed your game character?
I remember when Ultima Online came out, a friend of mine was totally excited about the possibilities of role playing an evil character online. It was essentially just an offshoot of his playing a thief in D&D when we were growning up. In fact, I believe one of his goals was to actually create a Ponzi scheme in the game. I remember he eventually gave up on the game because no one really wanted to roleplay like he did. He and I both were disappointed as MMORPGs became more like online theme parks, where safety of the customer was paramount, than a kind of wild lawless game world.
I think a lot of the problem with this kind of thing is that many people see it as just a form of cheating. And honestly, it was the cheating that was going on in UO and others that caused the people running them to turn the game into something that was more safe for neophyte players.
It would be interesting to see a game that emphasized to the player that other players may do bad things to you from time to time, and any form of redress has to take place through action in the game world and not by banning the person from the game.
if you are the one playing, a game of skill is legal to bet on in california. I believe. Like texas hold 'em. i don't know about you other states. we're talking about a game and not a lifestyle or means of communication right? (??)
Should we consider the death penalty for people who commit murder in a game. Come on you're waisting semi valuable band width with this question.
From others' posts, I can tell that I hold a minority opinion, but video game crime has gotten way out of hand. We should charge anyone who frags another player in a deathmatch with homicide, because there's really no difference between violence in the game, and in real life.
Instead of an analogy of someone's boogers (which are unlikely to be seen as objects of value by anyone), let's take another example: rare baseball cards. Now, it's entirely possible to take an old baseball card worth hundreds or thousands of dollars and print an exact replica for only a few cents per copy (assuming you order enough copies for a bulk order.) Let's disregard copyright and EULA issues for a moment here and consider the parallels with the matter at hand. With virtual items, there is really no cost at all to duplicate, only an artificially imposed restriction, but then what's the restriction against counterfeit rare baseball cards; why can't we duplicate these items for virtually nothing (a few cents) and sell them for the full value of the originals? Again, it's an artificial restriction, a bias against reproductions (no matter how perfect they may be) for the "original" of something. Rationally speaking, it makes no more sense than the artificial restriction against rare items in an MMORPG yet a theft or fraud of a rare baseball card is likely to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Again, disregarding copyright and EULA issues (which may not exist at all in future games, or perhaps not even in current games such as Second Life) what's the difference? I hardly think the few cents it takes to copy a baseball card matters at all.
You say that a few bits on a hard drive are not worth anything; I say neither is a bit of ink sprayed on $0.0002 worth of cardboard. Neither one is really useful; neither one is in intrinsically valueable, and yet both have become valuable, have been imbued with value via the keen interest of hobbiests/gamers and that value is protected against via arbitrary restrictions, whether it be a bit of computer code or an obsession with originals/disdain of perfect reproductions.
Let me hasten to say that I despise the concept of intellectual property and most attempts to control information like we control property, but at the same time I don't think that means we can completely discount any attempt to put a real life monetary value on "just bits stored on a hard drive." Your bank account is just bits stored on a hard drive, yet it directly translates to cold hard cash. So does the virtual money in Second Life. One could even argue that the currency of Second Life is more stable than many national currencies, e.g. the Iraqi Dinar (if you believed, for instance, that Iraq stands a greater chance of undergoing major civil war than the company behind Second Life does of going bankrupt. I'm not inimately familiar with Second Life or the company behind it, but my gut tells me this isn't a completely off-the-wall belief.)
EULAs and copyrights might make this particular issue moot, but don't think for one moment that similar issues involving theft or fraud of virtual objects are automatically pointless or asinine or moot, because we're *already* treating theft of virtual objects (dollars in a bank account illictly transferred to another bank account) as serious felonies. The day may come when there are more people agreeing that a super rare item in Diablo 6 is worth serious, real-life money than there are people agreeing that a Babe Ruth rookie card is worth serious, real-life money, so disregarding IP/EULA issues and given that it's trivially cheap to duplicate the Babe Ruth card, who's to say that only the latter deserves legal protection against theft and fraud?
I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea myself, but it's definitely something we need to keep in mind.
"When Is a Con Not a Con?"
Allow me to answer that with another question. To wit, "when is a game not real fucking life, you nerd?"
Sweet Jesus.
you type,mkay?
Killing and stealling happen mmorpgs, should the people be prosecuted in RL?
No.
When they use the game to gey your RL credit number, then there might be a crime.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Hello! game GAME.. game!
Murdering someone in these gain also can get you something you can sell on eBay. WHat do we do then?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
In some counties, the min. age to use a brothel is 14, go figure.
This means the the protitute an pretend to be the 14 year olds girl friend.
Like I said, double standard from days gone by.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If nothing else the IRS could nab him for tax evasion if he didn't pay taxes on prizes he acquired in game.
That whole tax line is rubbish. Let's say that in my own spare time I decide to paint a picture. Lets also assume that I somehow paint the greatest work of art ever created, it gains fame and notoriety, people offer me hundreds of millions of pounds for it. No tax is payable till I sell it. And if I just decide to keep it on my living room wall I don't owe anyone anything.
It's against the TOS of EVE to sell in-game currency for cash. So, it's true that in order to realize the value of your currency, you have to break the TOS. Nevertheless, this does not negate the value of the in-game currency. Consider that the IRS can initiate action against drug dealers who fail to report illicit sales income on their income taxes. Simply because cashing in on a valuable item is illegal does not obviate the tax liability of that transaction. As has been mentioned many times - ironically often by posters who fail to see how in-game currency could be taxable - a thing is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. The troubling distraction that your sale violates some nigh-unenforceable TOS is trivial. Once there is substantial enough income being generated through these games, the IRS _will_ start requiring that it be declared as "hobby income". Note that it will probably track your income by transactions, ie whenever you "cash out" of the game. Even the IRS would be hard-pressed to go after you for every GP you picked off a mob in-game but never converted into money.
As far as I've understood it (listening to Eve Radio and dropping in with my character from time to time) the people "victimized" by this scheme were foolish enough to put their virtual money into this "bank." I severely doubt that these players would've played it so fast and loose had they been investing actual money. I think these players should get a refund, but you can't punish the guy for exploiting the Barnum Effect. It's just a game for Christ's sake. If I could go a bit further, I'd say that it lends a bit of realism to the economy of the game world. You'd never see a scam like this in World of Warcraft, I can tell you that much.
It's worthless until converted into a tangible asset, freely traded. Look at it like the equity in your home. You bought your house for $100000 now 5 years later it's worth $125000. That money value isn't taxable until after sale, and then taxable only if you don't re-invest it in a similar property, meaning you buy a "bigger" home. Just because my GE stock is worth more now than I paid for it initially, I don't claim it as income until I convert it or I claim a dividend, which I claim as income from investment.
Now in context of the game, good for Mr/Ms Rask. Apparently it's much easier to run a scam to get ahead in a game where armed theft is totally legal! I mean I can blow up your ship and steal your goods for my own benefit, but someone gets antsy when I talk you into just giving me your money without firing a shot? Two things...no one happened to notice the FDIC protection warning when depositing with Rask did they? No because it's not insured. Secondly, if you get crazy profit "promised" from an investment, you can pretty much guarantee it's a scam.
I'd like to get the email addresses of Rask's "investors". I need some help moving some cash from a Nigerian bank....
There are plenty of techniques and schemes people can do in these online games that other players don't like. Take Silkroad Online for example. In this game, you can be a trader to do trade runs between cities for in-game gold profits. If a thief in the game were to "1-star pop" your trade run, stealing around 55,000 gold worth of loot, should this be punishable in the real world? I don't believe this technique was envisioned by the Silkroad developers, and in-game players generally frown upon the practice of 1-star popping. It is unfair to the 1-star trader because the thief is often much higher level and the trader does not stand a chance.
I think if there is no means of translating in-game items to real-world cash, supported by the developers, then real-world rules should not apply. In Silkroad, I can murder a player. Should I be put on trial in a criminal court because the player I murdered happened to be a high level player and leader of a guild that declared war on my guild because of the murder?
It's just a game.
Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
Unless, of course, you're saying that you killed them IRL...
Clear, Dark Skies
The article I read about the issue claimed he could sell off his earnings for about 100k USD - which is why I said it qualifies as fraud. If he cannot extract IRL value from the in-game fraud, then no laws were broken.
Clear, Dark Skies
What if Neil Armstrong bumped off Buzz Aldrin when they were (presumably) on the moon. Could he be held guilty under United States or any other country's law seeing they were not in that country or even the earth at the time? Same goes for the game I expect. Real laws only hold for the real world unless specifically specified?
Explain how!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
AFAIK, there are no exchanges where you can trade a murder in-game for a murder in real life. I wouldn't worry about it until then.
Maybe the balance we draw is that this person is only prosecuted if they try to turn ill-gotten ISKs to real dollars? Or, considering that ISKs already have value (as, I'll bet that many people he defrauded paid USDs for them), maybe we shouldn't wait.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
And PKs should be prosecuted for murder! Yeah, that's the ticket!
To whoever posited this, please, step away from the keyboard and try to get hold of a life. A real one.
What about a gaming universe that operates outside of the computer/console world? I'm referring here to alternative reality games taking place off screen, on the street. I've participated in several "scavenger hunts", "murder mysteries" and other such games which were full of real-life interactions, including some which would possibly fall under suspicion from legal authorities (I'm thinking here of a game involving a counter-terrorism plot - knowing full well that many have been arrested for pretending to have bombs on planes, etc.). These games require actors to pretend to be killed, kidnapped, hit by cars, and verbally harassed by thugs in public places. We always followed the rules of our gaming universe, but we obviously could never say that our universe was entirely of our own creation - that is, it always included aspects of the real world as props and unwitting actors and passersby. Of course the video game world is its own jurisdiction, but what happens when the worlds mix?
Hmm, indeed, Ponzi schemes are illegal IRL but so is murder. Does the fact I've killed several thousand people on EVE mean I'll be expecting a knock from Inspector Knacker of the Yard?
But in Gamer-World, you're paying whatever subscription fees the game charges to have an environment where you can kill monsters, frag your buddies, or do other things that might not be appropriate in Real Life. You pay money for your subscription time, and if you take things way too seriously you can buy and sell your game loot on eBay. If the Non-player-character monsters kill you because you didn't see them sneaking behind the +2 Shrubbery or because you're not good enough at shooting that BFG9000, too bad, you've had your fun and get reincarnated in a puff of greasy orange smoke. And if some guild of teenage hoodlums thinks it's fun to frag people and steal their stuff, well, they get to feel R337 31337 and k3wl and laugh at you, and you can deal with them in your next incarnation.
This is just another case of the same thing. The guy's pulled off a really cool hack, which everybody who played in it should have understood what it was. If they don't like it, they can go frag him, because this is a game, and you get to do that in Games. If the game company manages it correctly, whichever of the 5000 angry suckers frags him first should be able to steal his bank account and become the new target unless he does something social like give back the money, maybe less a self-appointed 10% Bounty Hunter's Fee.
This is a lot different from A Rape In Cyberspace, where the perp did something really unconscionable for a MUD - while I haven't played in the particular game universe that the event happened in, pulling off a Big Con in most Gamer-Worlds successfully sounds wildly appropriate, and the perp now has a big red round target painted on his chest.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. This loon is bitching about being conned, in a game where conning is the norm..
WTF!?!