Slashdot Mirror
Australian Teachers Try To Shut Down Website
DeathElk writes "New South Wales teachers are attempting to have a website based in the United States closed down due to "defamatory" content. The site in question encourages students to rate teachers at their school, which obviously results in some colorful content. Now the story has hit the media, with some insightful quotes such as "The president of the NSW Secondary Principals Council, Jim McAlpine, said the Federal Government should block access to 'scurrilous American websites'."
I was just listening to Radio National (oz public radio station) do a story on this. One of the people interviewed said that China is capable of blocking websites from overseas so maybe something similar should start up in Australia. I find it kind of disturbing that people believe that the great firewall is a rational response to the potential slander of some teachers.
every time you try to censor something in today's tech world you end up attracting more attention than if you had left it alone. besides, how can they possibly enforce this? they cant block the site at home or any cyber cafe or anywhere but the school's computers.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Gulp... Hope they don't ban slashdot too ;-(
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed (SK)
most Austrailians I've met in person have been pretty cool people, but there seems to be a large portion of their online population who are big on censorship. At one point I was a very active member on a Stargate message board, but ther was an Aussie admin who was constantly closing threads as "Asked and answered" "No longer relavent" and the best yet "Off Topic" the funny part about the off topic one was that it was in a section of the board specifically labeled as the Off Topic section. I got the board admin in on it (he wasn't usually watching what was going on) and got their over zealous modding slowed down, but I stood my ground. I wasn't going to post anymore unless they reopend some wrongly closed threads, they didn't.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
Would you prefer the family first party? Half of their platform is to firewall Australia. I'm no liberal fan but we have a pretty good communications minister in Helen Coonan.
...or has censorship been the Hot Topic this week?
So what? Australians aren't guaranteed freedom of speech in their Constitution. Students wouldn't be considered enfranchised citizens if it was guaranteed, since it's perfectly legitimate to discriminate against residents by reason of age. Who wants to live in Australia?
P.S. (The USA is on the way to becoming Australia.)
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
As a side note, it's also interesting that the first two posts in response to this story seemed to advocate the censorship instead of considering whether the "defamed" teachers might in fact be unfit. Are Aussies really that OK with censorship?
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Who the hell modded that insightful?
How about (-1) flamebait instead?
Optimist: The thumb drive is half empty! Pessimist: The thumb drive is half full...
We'll just post the defamatory content in hexadecimal poems and songs on You Tube!
Teaching is one of very few services whose practitioners are hard to gage until it's too late.
Now you know who sucks, and therefore who to avoid.
I'm sure the ones that suck are really ticked about this.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
But I guess if you're just mailing it in all the time, you'd probably want to hide that fact.
Where was this site when I was at school. I would have loved to issue a report card on some of my teachers.
The quotes about the anonymous principal, in the article? Yeah, I went to that school, she was principal back then, and the comments are 100% spot on. Funny that she'd find her way into the SMH and onto Slashdot ...
I'm an Aussie myself and I'm entirely not surprised. A lot of Australians are well-meaning but conservative, especially the older ones in office - their kneejerk reaction to a situation is to try to make it go away, rather than address the underlying issues.
It is my hope that websites like this will encourage quality teaching and improvement in teacher training/practice, but a lot of people think it's better to brush it under the carpet rather than do the hard yards to satisfy the students.
That said, there's no excuse for spreading falsehoods about teachers who don't deserve it. I really don't rate students to give fairly assess the short-comings of someone who just assigned them homework.
Strewth, what else will these wankers think of next? Should put a blooming firewall up just for their bloody precious egos? Bugger that. Sounds like a bunch of whinging Poms to me.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Nigga stole my MySpace!
--Anthony
I don't know how similar this is to a site in the US http://www.pickaprof.com/ but I think they are very helpful in allowing students to choose professors or instructors that they will enjoy. I can't count how many times it has helped me choose a prof who averages a full grade point higher than others or who has a teaching style more to my liking.
Its a bit of sad state when we Aussies (teachers in this case) look at that and cant take the piss out of themselves. However the teachers that are targeted as such generally do come off as wankers, the only difference is that students have a medium to express how they feel about them with out repercussions, if half the people i knew from school told the teaching staff how they felt about certain teachers they would cop flak from it, but shock horror really.
... what a fucking joke. Look, I can understand that the teachers feel they are being defamed - they certainly are - but some of the quotes illustrate why this is just an emotional reaction:
(From TFA) "It is clearly an absolute disgrace that people are anonymously able to make comments about teachers that are quite atrocious," she said.
So what? Why should someone's anonymous statement on some website mean anything to these teachers? Can't they just ignore it?
The quote from Jim McAlpine at the end of the article is an absolute disgrace and shows that he is completely out of touch with internet governance, or lack-thereof.
I'm sure Slashdotters will make plenty of disparaging comments towards Australians but this comes down to an irrational, emotional reaction by a small bunch of luddite fuckwits who should know better.
I wash mah-self with a rag on a stick.
Dammit, I wish I'd thought of this when I first got into web design in high school. I was too busy messing around with animated gifs and hunting for Xara 3D keygens.
Whilst trolling is inevitable, a quick look around shows that some (presumably deserving) teachers are getting positive reviews, and that the site isn't just being used for slander and ridicule. I'm going to give students enough benifit of the doubt that they have the discrimination to weed out fud and recognise useful praise and criticism on the site.
If I had known what an utter tool the art teacher at North Sydney Boys' High (Mr. Starling, 1998) was in advance, I never would have set foot in the place. This is a perfect example of what the Web should be for - access to information that empowers users (and in this case, I'll grudgingly admit, their parents) to make the best choices for their growth and development during a crucial period of their lives.
As with many stories, there is more to this than meets the eye.
The NSW Teachers Federation, which is a fairly powerful union here, has been vigorously fighting any attempts to rate the teachers performance and that of their students. Report cards for students are virtually meaningless nowdays and they have fought tooth and nail to prevent the return of the old system. I can't see what justification the Dept of Education has for blocking access to these sites, but as someone who went through the NSW system, I think having a rating site is a great idea. Many of the teachers are less than competent to be teaching our children.
Don't tailgate - the end is near!
"Will no one rid me of this troublesome network?"
I looked up my old school - some of the teachers I had are still there and have been rated. The ratings are right on.
Interestingly someone gave one of the IT teacher low ratings for blocking access to ratemyteachers.com claiming that it deprived teachers of much needed constructive criticism.
Most of the comments I saw were constructive and none were outright abusive. Most also showed respect and that the teachers had developed a rapport with the students. This site is an efficient web based suggestion box I don't think anyone should block it.
I couldn't think of a subject line, sorry lol. Anyway, gl with that takedown. If it does somehow magically disappear, they'll probably just move it to a host in a foreign country like...Wales or something lol. I don't care how many people get hurt from it because it helps expose teachers that everyone hates and shouldn't be working as teachers. There was one at my HS that definitely should have been fired. It's like to old saying, if one person says a teacher's a jackass then it's an opinion. When everyone says the teacher's a jackass, they better not be there the next year.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
In some ways, this isn't that different than students talking behind the teachers backs. At least this way the teachers can find out what the students are saying about them.
When I was a wee lad a long time ago, we used to scribble comments about teachers on the bathroom walls. Often in colorful language and/or pictographs. Kids today just want to tell the whole wide world how bad school sucks.
Just because that's a really good word, and also absolutely applicable to the story as a whole.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
and I if gave a damn about my teaching career, I'd welcome comments from my students (good or bad). It's not only about teaching your experiences to children - life is a learning experience no matter how old you are.
Now you can flame me that you don't give a damn (as perhaps some people in this group perhaps don't make mistakes and don't give a darn about it) but I do and learn from my mistake as well as others.
This is no different than an owner of a company, or perhaps a manager that we all associate with - the opportunity to express your opinion on how he/she is doing is important -(like it or not) towards constructive achievement in today's society.
How can we learn to be proactive unless we (or others) make mistakes?
Many people favour free speech. Fewer support it when people say things they don't like.
It happens on slashdot too - look how people abuse the moderation system to supress opinions with which they disagree..
Your constitution was a remarkable document, granted, but its role as the absolute guarantor of everything under the sun is exaggerated. It didn't protect you from McCarthyism, it didn't protect you (and the rest of the world) from Gitmo, it didn't stop Lenny Bruce from being arrested repeatedly, it didn't stop Lady Chatterley's Lover from remaining unpublished in the United States for decades, and so on. In practice, all it means much of the time is that when community attitudes finally change, it's more often judges rather than politicians who give effect to the change.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Our scurrilous websites? Your fucking kids wrote the stuff!
-Peter
No?
Then maybe... just maybe... the site isn't libellous at all.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Another case of unnecessary media attention caused by themselves. If they were to keep quiet about it and let it slip under the rug, it wouldn't have enter main-stream media and now, slashdot.
the main issues seem to be that ANYONE can post, there is no moderation and no right of reply. Sure you can say what you want but the target should also have the right to challenge the 'ratings'
There was an unknown error in the submission.
News flash for teachers....if you don't want a bad rating on the site...well just demonstrate you can teach.
In the USA, it is only possible to win a slander/libel case if the plaintiff can prove that the defendant made the statement AND the statement was false AND the defendant knew that it was false AND the defendant made the statement to injure the reputation of the plaintiff. That's a lot to prove, and it rarely succeeds.
That isn't the case in those countries (such as Australia) that are subjects of the inbred Hessian monarchs of England. The burden of proof is on the defendant. It's how the dictators of Singapore and Zimbabwe hold their grip on power. In some jurisdictions, the defendant is found guilty even if he proves that the statement is true.
The only reason why the incompetant teaches in kangarooland haven't gone to court already is that even if they win a judgement against the US website, they have no chance of collecting it. A US court would laugh any such order from a kangarooland court. Hence their rage.
Just because there are idiots around, doesn't mean everyone else is good.
> I wonder if truth is a defense against slander/libel/defamation in Australia. It isn't in England
Yes it is, just that the burden of proof is on the defendent, not the plaintiff. Read the article in Wikipedia.
seriously, who gives a shit? anyone, including minor's are entitlied to their opinion and thats all this site does. as long as they aren't making any criminal accusations it's really a non event.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
language: 09
mind control: F9
student interaction: 11
shows interest in students: 02
keeps class under control while being strict: 9D
seems to enjoy teaching: 74
treats students as individuals: E3
listens to our ideas: 5B
searching terrorists: D8
finding real terrorists: 41
encourages to be responsible: 56
tries new teaching methods: c5
encourages differences of opinion: 63
encourages creativity: 56
knows the subject being presented: 88
leads good class discussions: c0
I think I would be a bad teacher, since I gave too much on certain topics but maybe it'll motivate them teachers *grin*
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
we had the same problem in Ireland, there was a huge out burst in the media. but the site exploded onto the mainstream.
I think that in a career where you are given authority over young people, it can be very easy to go on some fascist head trip. teachers need to be brought back to reality here;
1. you provide an important service....but your not super-jesus
2. you provide an important service....but we're not going to filter out valid points about you.
3. you provide an important service....but in the real world (that thing outside the class room) you're not in charge.
so teachers are getting an F in public relations from me.
"Stallman says add to this code and you are one of us. Gates says use this code and you belong to us."
The Muse of Irony demands it!
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
The point I'm making is that a) the constitution and the court system is very far from perfect, and b) other nations have their own means of protecting the rights of their citizens, which are also not perfect but work a heck of a lot better than Americans sometimes give credit for, and has sometimes worked better than the US system does.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
We've had the exact same thing for our teachers at Virginia Tech for years.
And the masses cried out, "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0!"
For a site like this to pop up. On one hand, students are going to often be biased against a teacher they dont get along with. On the other hand, you may see one teacher thats getting rated horribly by all their students, and surely that has to tell people something.
This might just be the kind of thing to make some teachers get their act together. I remember having some absolutely horrible teachers in school and there being absolutely nothing you could do about it. I had a teacher in about the third or fourth garde try to have me suspended for undermining him, because I corrected his spelling on the blackboard several times. People like that should be named and shamed. They have no business teaching if they are going to make kids stupid. Parents can make all the complaints they want, but rarely, if ever is anything done unless theres a threat of legal action. If the complaints are now there for all to see, attitudes toward student and parent complaints may begin to change.
All my co-workers here at The Department of Education and Training cant wait to get home and look at this site (Its blocked from here through the great DET firewall) they all thought it would be a great laugh to see what the kids are saying about there teaching friends still in the classroom. Performance based pay had been a big issue here recently, we in the office think this would be a great Idea let the kids work out how good the teachers are
I wonder whether the students posting such ratings would mind if they too were rated.
Ratings which would last an eternity on the internet.
eg. Joe Bloggs Student was a lazy, prick, more interested in cheating, being disruptive and time-wasting. Would be a waste of resources for any potential employer.
I'm sure this would fix the problem.
I do feel bad for teachers though. They only get 12 weeks a year annual leave, plus public holidays, start at 8:30am and knock off at 3:30pm, earn $10000+ a year more than me, having to teach 6 year olds how to add 1 + 1. Poor teachers...Poor me...
the teachers involved should sue the websites to get the identities and then sue the posters...
oh wait... that costs money and takes time...
what else could we do... Ah I know... get our union to get the government to block them instead...
la la la la la la... I see no problem.... la la la la la....
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
my fear is that with the current state of play* the China thing could very well happen.
*one-party state posing as a two-party state with talkback radio providing the entire political agenda. Australia has a very small media market with 95% of the populace being led along by 2 or 3 media moguls.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I swear, Australian lawmaking seems to me to lately to be trying to take the knee jerk reaction to an art form. A great example is car accidents, every year some bunch of teenage idiots get in a car and kill themselves. Then the new tougher driving laws come in and make it supposedly harder to get a license, then some more kids kill themselves and the cycle continues. The same is true for the internet, except as far as I know the stupid laws never make it past the "She's a witch, burn her" point.
It seems to me that the media and politician's reaction to anything bad happening is "Ban it" and so far it's obvious to me that it has never worked.
Too true. Painfully true. If you live in Australia and care about the information you're fed, listen to Triple J radio. They may be somewhat left biased (particularly being a non-commercial alternative 'youth' focused network), but they rarely filter, blinker or mold the truth, unlike the other stations.
However, principals of NSW Government Schools have no authority to terminate teachers who have poor performance. The principal is usually well aware if a teacher's performance is adequate, although I know there are some bad principals too. Who will hold them to account?
As it's in writing, it's libel. Slander is only for spoken words.
If they'd just ignored it it would have been a nuisance. Now it's a publicity boost and a REAL problem.
It demonstrates that these teachers seem to combine a lack of knowledge about how to deal with students with a lack of knowledge on how to manage publicity as it makes it appear they have something to hide (and they should have known that shutting down the site isn't going to solve this as many others will spring up instead). Duh.
0 marks out of 10 for demonstrating values.
Insert
Or another way to put it might be -- the more you tighten your grasp, Highness, the more planet will slip through your fingers.
The djinni is out of the bottle folks. The djinni is well and truly out of the bottle. If people try to firewall the Internet, you'll have to round up and imprison all your radio amateurs too. Got a copy of an old ARRL handbook out there? You can make a radio with one and enough copper wire & a few fairly easy to make bits. One good ham engineer on either side of the pond to boost a cheap wifi router and you've got Internet again. It wouldn't be a dump truck, or even much of a tube at the start, but you'd have at least as good a connection as the Samizdat network that pulled down another historical wall.
Dang. Sentimental tears. Where's my Pink Floyd collection? I want to hear my -- uh, off-site backup copy of The Wall again...
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Shush you ! I'm typing as fast as I can.
Life is just a bowl of All Bran - Small Faces
Too true. Painfully true. If you live in Australia and care about the information you're fed, listen to Triple J radio. They may be somewhat left biased (particularly being a non-commercial alternative 'youth' focused network),
This may have been true prior to 1989. Remember when they played 'Express Yourself' by NWA all day? Then all those people got the sack and they have been a stupid useless joke ever since.
but they rarely filter, blinker or mold the truth, unlike the other stations.
They also used to do their own news. Now they feed off the common ABC feed. I love getting sport updates on JJJ. Reminds me how far they have fallen. Their news now reflects the upper-middle class crap that the rest of the ABC does.
As an aside I remember when the DJs weren't handed set lists and could actually play anything they wanted. JJJ wasn't just another music industry whore.
... is to start ratemypupils.com!
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
dicks, sometimes.
I heard a teacher from the Uk talking about the UK version of the site, calling for the government to regulate it or shut it down.
His argument was that, he had a series of ten comments about him, eight of which were glowing - utterly positive - but because the other two were a little negative - and not abusive or defamatory, mind - the whole thing was an outrage, and Something Should Be Done(TM).
This guy wasn't just any old teacher either, he was the head of some teacher's union, speaking in an official capacity.
Maybe it's the result of having a constant work environment where the principle relationship with people is one of authority and, perhaps, a lack of firm grounding in that authority, that results in such hypersensitivity to criticism. Whatever the reason, they should get a bleedin' grip.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
Really gotta disagree with the "one-party state posing as a two-party state" comment, the divide between labor and the liberals is a chasm if you compare it to the republicans and democrats, also, in this country the minor parties do have the possibility to make a difference.
95% of people being led by packer, murdoch and stokes is true and a terrible thing though.
Don't think you can really take offence to the schools filtering their own internet connection though.
There was a proposal back in March 2006 by the Labour party (main opposition) in Australia for a national firewall that was first rejected by the in power Liberal party and then considered. Can't find the original article but there is a couple of quotes here. The idea being
"international websites would be banned by the Australian Communications and Media Authority if they contained graphic sexual or violent material, rated R or higher."
because
"It was "too hard" for many parents to install internet blockers on their computers to prevent offensive material being downloaded"
And an article on the Liberal party considering the proposal here.
Didn't hear much more on it after this, I suppose someone with half a clue had a quiet word with these tossers and let them know just how difficult that would be to put in place and enforce. (I would like to say they decided against it because it's a stupid idea but I imagine it's just because it was too difficult).
Looks like this Jim McAlpine thinks it would be a good idea to put it in place. Apparently great minds think alike, looks like idiots do the same.
.... kommissars of the new fascism.
May the Maths Be with you!
(If it were technically possible,) how would you react to a website where anyone (including potential employers) could search for you and see what your average bug count per 100 lines of code was?
Believing something doesn't make it true. Not believing something doesn't make it false.
This is not at all to suggest that all or a majority of their teachers are bad - Heaven knows we still have enough bad ones in this country too - just that it seems to be a well established problem of the English speaking countries. As is the syndrome of trying to shoot the messenger.
Pining for the fjords
of course if they posted total shit on there i'd clip their fucking ears to.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
While I understand the feelings (and I do think people should decide for themselves what is suitable and not), I always think these arguments lack some consistency when viewed rationally.
First of all: "I'm in favour of preventing my children from seeing certain websites and images that are harmful to them."
This would be more convincing if anyone could actually show how pr0n (I assume that's what you're talking about) is actually harmfull to anyone when viewed. And if it were, how is it possible that it is o so harmful to children, but becomes unharmful the moment they turn 18? It just doesn't make any sense. In the USA, it is even deemed to be 'harmful' if kids see a booby...but at the same time they can watch a movie with a rather hefty dose of violence without any problem - while one could reasonably argue that violence is much more harmful than sex. The fact one has a great tolerance for the first, but almost none for the latter (at least in the USA) is completely nonsensical. I always wonder about parents who freak out about that; I mean, did they only started to look at 'dirty pictures' when they were 18 year or older? Myeah, right. If I remember correctly, the kids at my school (and I myself) where watching playboy-magazines (some kid snatched from his parents) LONG before we were 18. People should get a grip; it's part of life, and kids are curious and on itself it's anything but 'harmful'. I would rather argue it is unnatural to never have encountered sexual-themed topics before you're 18 years old (like in some parts of china, where married copples sometimes don't even know how to do 'it', even when they are 20+ years old). Teenagers will NOT die or get a trauma just by viewing sexual things, I assure you. In fact, I'm quite sure they actively go searching for it on the internet (I would have, if the internet had existed back then). There is no real harm done, it's just something people invent as an excuse to prevent their kids watching stuff they don't like because of their morals. And often they are hypocritical about it on top, because those same parents often DO watch it themselves, despite their proclaimed moral high ground. The idea that it would be harmful to minors while adults can watch it without any harm is truly absurd: not only has no scientific research demonstrated any actual harm, there is no basis whatsoever to argument it harms when being -18 and it doesn't when one is 18+. That concept is just crap, and I think most of us know that, deep down.
"I'm in favour of preventing adults viewing material that either encourages them to commit crimes against children or harms children in making the material."
I'm not completely getting this one neither. Preventing *adults*? You mean if kids view the material it would be ok, this time? Or do you mean 'everyone'? Is there any scientific proof that viewing material encourages crimes? And if that is the case, shouldn't all films where someone is killed be prohibited too, since it would encourage murder? Once again, the argument would be more convincing if there would be a bit more proof and consistency instead of conjecture. And while I agree in most cases it could mean children are harmed, what are you going to do about cases like the one mentioned on slashdot some months ago, where a teenager of 14 made some sexual webcam-recording of himself and now faces a 10-year prison sentence because of 'possesion of childporn'? Made by himself of himself! Just shows how stupid and overboard some laws have gone. I'm all for the protection of children (though the 'save the children' mantra has been overused as it is), but it's ridiculous to imprison a kid to 'protect' him from 'abuse' by himself. One could as well put teenagers in jail because of indecent behaviour with minors when they wank themselves, then. I understand the argument of protecting kids from harm, but I think it often has more to do with imposing morals than anything else, because otherwise, one could not argument against allowing it in the above case.
"I'm in fav
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
(stops to take breath, giggles)
Ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha! Hah ha ha ha hah ha hah hah ha ha ha hah! Ha hah ha ha ha hah! Ha ha hah ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha hah hah hah ha hah ha! Ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha! Hah ha ha ha hah ha hah hah ha ha ha hah! Ha hah ha ha ha hah! Ha ha hah ha hah ha ha hah ha hah ha ha hah hah hah ha hah ha!
Oh fuck - you're serious, aren't you?
I might agree with you if she did one thing: took Rupert Murdoch's cock out of her mouth...
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Haven't I lost money from the defendant saying I'd defamed them? So I have the opportunity to sue for damages etc...
I like sites like this, but they seem to have a major weakness. That's the ease of user created content. If those complaining about the site were serious/smart/motivated they could easily kill the site's credibility within a week or 2. Hell I was able to add ratings without even signing up for the site (don't worry I put testing as my response, and my rating is pending). Had I been a teacher I would probably easily written 18-20 reviews praising myself, even if I had been a terrible teacher. The highest rated teacher at the highest rated school only had 36 responses. For the most part I saw nothing on the site that fit into the US Law definition of libel (aussies might have a different law), but many of the reviews may of changed due to the press (that would also explain the lack of reviews).
These sites should be encouraged, and not prohibited. My daughters in college have found professor rating sites invaluable in avoiding 'losers' that are institutionalized into the system. There may be derogatory comments about some but the averaging of many comments provides more enlightenment to potential students than is does danger to the professors. Of course many of the 'losers' won't want to be discovered. I wish I had resources like this back when I was in school.
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
You're on earth, there's no cure for that - S. Beckett
Firstly one of my parents and other relatives are currently teachers in the NSW school system, so I have some insight into this issue. I have listened to my dad talking about this particular website. This probably also makes me biased somewhat.
A few things need to be considered here.
Firstly the problem is that the feedback is largely anonymous. You have to ask would these students walk up to the school principal and make these complaints in person? In a lot of cases they would not. Any derogatory comment made anonymously is a comment made by a coward. Because the feedback is anonymous students probably exaggerate greatly. It can't be treated as a meaningful indication of a teacher's ability. Students will be more likely to comment/rate when they think negatively, students who are happy with their teachers will generally not bother.
Another issue is the affect this has on good teachers. I have heard of one particular teacher in NSW who was scared to go into the classroom because she knew that the person who posted some aggressively negative comments would be in the room. For young teachers entering the system it can be difficult to handle. How would you like it if in your job you were openly discredited so publically by a group of immature teenagers? Negative comments about a teacher is likely more a reflection of the students in that particular class than the teacher.
For people who think teachers should be held accountable, consider this... In NSW teachers are paid quite poorly and generally not held in a high regard by the general community. Accountability doesn't necessarily mean that teaching standards will improve, it could actually lower the standards. What intelligent person would want to become a teacher in NSW with all the crap they have to deal with.
Anyway I actually don't support censorship. So despite all I have written I don't think the website should be closed down. But perhaps what is needed is for the website to allow teachers to respond, not sure if it currently allows this? But these ratings should not be taken seriously and won't be taken seriously by sensible people. So teachers should just ignore the comments.
I'm a teacher in New Zealand and many of the schools here in NZ are listed on this site. I think this site is actually beneficial. Most on the comments on there are positive and constructive. Some are not. I think the moderators do a reasonable job removing imature slander etc. Anyway I think it's cool but then i would say that because my feedback so far has been sweet! If i had negative feedback on there then it might give me a hint that i might need to change my teaching practice.
I think the key problem is to find a way to enable the debate without letting defamation creep in. I disagree /entirely/ with trying to shut the site down because that is blunt censorship, but there has to be accountability.
How to impose that without violating the right to privacy is another matter, but it's not right that you go and call someone names without being responsible for your words - what's to stop someone maliciously claiming one of those teachers does strange things with furry animals (I'm keeping this light, I'm sure you can come up with worse)?
So, I think the site idea is good, even though teachers may not like it, but it needs moderation, right of reply and accountability without voiding the anonymous nature (as that would otherwise stop the debate for want of damage to grades and/or expulsion).
Bottomline, however, is that there appears to be quite a disconnect between teachers/management and the students. It would be wise for the teachers to start thinking about that and maybe find a solution for debate closer to home. This is what leadership (and teaching) is supposed to be about..
Insert
Much Like on Slashdot, and that system works not too badly here.
Do you want Anonymous Cowards teaching your kids?
Reduce, reuse, cycle
go on, lets give it +5 flamebait ; )
I'm a teacher in a secondary school in the UK. I have a number of postings on rate my teacher. My avergae score is approaching 4.9/5 which isn't bad. however I know that there are a number of teaching staff, who on the whole are a lot more skilled than i am who have far lower average scores.
This site unfortunatly is so open to absue it has almost become totaly redundant. Both staff and pupils can post muliple scores for teachers, pupils are adding each other as staff to rate themselves.
I assume that as time goes on websites like RMT will become more prolific and spread through all aspects of global society, my collegues in OZ are just trying to come to terms with something that many of them have little or no understanding of.
Just my 2p.
Sorry, ignore that. Replied to the wrong thread.
Governments shutting down websites cause of negative reviews/disparate policies? (eye of the beholder)
Game producers shutting down websites cause of negative reviews? (eye of the beholder)
Tell you what, why don't we just gag everyone. Who needs free speech? Who indeed...Karem
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
IANAL but it strikes me that no responsible adult takes a child's tales about his teachers at face value. So a teacher's reputation is immune to damage from the facial content of children's posting and children are therefore incapable of defamation.
For example, an adult reading a child's comments on their English teacher is likely to attend to the spelling and grammar of the child's post to the exclusion of the content, and judge the English teacher on his pupils facility with the English language. The child's comment is a raw fact from which the adult draws inferences but from which he does not receive instruction. "Excellent. Marking might seem harsh, but it's generally the standard for a VCAA assessment." The child views the teacher's job as helping him prepare for examinations. On this page we learn that children tend to make criticisms using little anecdotes.
In order to be defamatory Rate My Teachers would have to draw adult inferences from the children's comments itself. Another way in which it could be defamatory would be for adults to post fake comments contrived to induce other adults to draw adverse inferences about the teacher concerned. I don't see this second concern as realistic, but think about the logic of the point: you cannot hope to damage a teacher's reputation merely by posing as a child and posting childish derogatory comments. It encapsulates why I believe children are incapable of defamation.
--- :BASE 16))
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It only takes one -- even anonymous -- accusation of being a kiddy-fiddler to destroy a teachers career, peace of mind, and possibly liberty. It also doesn't seem to have occurred to most of the posters here that many of the students could be taking revenge on a perfectly decent teacher for giving the student a bad grade that they deserved.
I piss off bigots.
Furthermore a teacher has to be able to assume authority in the class. After all part of his job is to teach kids how to behave. Now imagine a mediocre teacher that has got a bad rating on this site. I don't think that this rating will help him control the kids. Of course we could argue that all the mediocre teachers should be fired, but right now it is difficult for schools to attract good employees. They don't get better employees by firing the worst 25% of the teachers.
If a weak teacher cannot control a class, then it is important that other teachers offer to help out. In the worst case one of them have to take over the class. The result is that the worst classes aren't given to the worst teachers. If the system works well, then the good teachers must feel that they get some social credit by taking over troubled classes. The problem is that this social credit is not visible on ratemyteachers, and that is destructive.
The problem is, in practice, its weight is much greater than that.
I had this debate once before, in a slightly different context where a jealous ex was posting doctored e-mails from when we'd been going out on forums read by mutual friends. I happened to mention this anecdotally on Slashdot, during a discussion about freedom of speech. I was told a variety of unconstructive things, most of which boiled down either to accusations that it must all have been my fault or she wouldn't have done it; or to claims that it was just words, trying to get the (untrue, hurtful) posts removed was censorship, and I should get over it.
Well, in the way of these things, I did get over it in time. There was relatively little lasting damage in that case. But now, come back to the case under discussion here. The underlying problem is the same: on the Internet, everyone can be a publisher to a wide audience, almost instantly, and effectively without having to accept any responsibility for what is said. Sometimes you can post anonymously. Even when you don't, and what you say is genuinely damaging, it's rarely enough to make a court case for defamation worthwhile. You can simply get away with hurtful behaviour, under the pretense of free speech.
So, newsflash for the younger generation: with freedom comes responsibility. I will respect your freedom of speech, as long as you accept responsibility for what you say, and that there may be consequences for you if what you say is unfairly damaging to others. If you will not accept that responsibility, then I have no problem whatsoever with arbitrarily restricting your freedom of speech.
In this case, those of us with friends and family in the profession can immediately tell you the consequences of web sites like this. They result in a few outstanding teachers being recognised for the gifts that they truly are. They result in a few truly poor teachers being recognised for the liabilities that they are. And they result in a lot of competent teachers, doing a very difficult job for relatively little money, being bad-mouthed by so many brats who think they know better that they start leaving the profession, to take on less demanding, better paid jobs that bring far less benefit to society.
The bottom line is that after a while, even if you're a pretty decent teacher, the negative comments start to hurt. Even if you're pretty sure that they aren't really true, doubts creep in. You find yourself second-guessing whether you've made big mistakes, failed to do the right thing, let someone down. That leads you to steering the safe course, not the right one, when you're working with the kids in your classes. And that, ultimately, degrades the quality of the kids' education and makes things worse for everyone. Whether you recognise that before or after you wind up leaving for less stressful work doesn't really matter: the end result is still that the teaching world loses a valuable asset, and a good person is left feeling bad.
So, next time you're making a principled argument for free speech that doesn't mention the word "responsibility", or shouting "sticks and stones" from the cheap seats, please stop and consider whether the entirely one-sided approach you are advocating really represents the kind of world you want to live in when taken to its logical conclusion.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I know an Aussie/Brit/married-an-American who was traumatized by Aussie education. "They made us wear panties in the school colors! PANTIES!" But her school was in Adelaide. So kids in Adelaide: your turn to get into the act and rate your schools.
I have to say:
'scurrilous'
pfffft lol.
I just checked out the high school in my town, and the thing that struck me was how many "smiley faces" (good teachers) vs. "frowny faces" there were. I didn't count, but I'd say the number of teachers the kids are rating as bad is under one-quarter. Maybe the teachers are tech-savvy and pumping their ratings, but I'm not so sure; the kids in this town are as plugged-in as can be. All in all, I think that if the kids are flaming a teacher on this site, the teacher ought to take it as a wake-up call that he/she is doing something wrong. The kids have an appreciation for the value of the education they're getting from a teacher. My fifth-grader may hate her challenging math assignments, but she loves her math teacher, and I think she would rate the woman as a good, but challenging teacher.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
Sure, why should our laws that protect our freedom matter when you in another country are pissed off at us?
Sounds like the WTO to me. Breaking down sovereign borders and creating one lowest common denominator world.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Though not in Australia.
:-)
1) I don't particularly care what anonymous students claim about me on some web site. Anyone knows the comments on these "ratings" sites should be taken with a grain of salt. These teachers need to accept that students might be saying *all*sorts* of bad things about them that aren't true. Horrible things. It happens in the halls, outside, whatever. It's inevitable. This quote is the most bizarre: "It is clearly an absolute disgrace that people are anonymously able to make comments about teachers that are quite atrocious." Yeah, as if that hasn't happened for centuries in other forums before web sites existed! Students have never written "atrocious" things on desks or bathroom walls about teachers. Are we going to monitor every word out of student's mouths just in case they happen to speak something genuinely slanderous or write something libellous? What if they're just stating an opinion and the relevant teacher doesn't like it? Or, in some bizarre Orwellian rationale, should we block their ability to speak freely even outside the classroom? What kind of message does that send? Grow up people!!!
2) The ratings I've received, while highly variable (it's impossible to make everybody happy), aren't particularly bad. Perhaps I'd be more sympathetic if I thought they were awful or unfair.
3) If students are *threatening* teachers, then, yeah, that's actionable, but all the specific examples provided fall far below that threshhold.
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons
I love it when people try to "strike back" at the "horrors" of the Internet. I would love to live in a world where people don't complain this much. Boohoo. You were "defamed" by your students? So what? Suck it up or fight back in like. Don't complain about the big scary American monster to a higher authority.
Australian education, anyone?
I'm no liberal fan but we have a pretty good communications minister in Helen Coonan.
Define "good."
I'd say that she is to her portfolio as Jack the Ripper is to nursing. Still, in her defence she saw the gaping problem we have here - too many diverse opinions in the media - and she fixed it by stripping away the media ownership laws. Now finally a media mogul can own just about every media outlet in the land! About time too. Rupert was happy. Kerry would have been proud.
Broadband? Who needs that crap! The Liberals managed to stall it long enough and give Telstra a free pass - our tax dollars at work. Digital TV? What? After nearly a decade of pushing it, they still haven't given anyone a reason why they should bother. Communications in the bush? Well, if a farmer lives in the middle of nowhere, it's their own lookout. Why should the cities subsidise those rednecks who only go around providing most of the food we eat? Serves them right. Privatisation of Telstra? Well, lets hand pick a board with utter disregard to the public who pay them, and then give them masses of money! Better yet, let's give them a monopoly on the infrastructure we paid for through our taxes, and limited oversight, so that they can screw any newcomers to the game to the wall! Good policy for a happier Australia.
The only way I can characterise her performance as "good" is through the benchmark set by her predecessor, Richard Alston. A man so devoid of technology ideas and understanding that it's a wonder we ever got that new-fangled Intarweb thingummajig here. If he had his way we would've had the longest piece of string on Earth, stretching between the US and Australia, with tin cans on either end staffed by morse-code tappers. Compared to him, Helen Coonan is a shining light in the firmament of policy. Then again, tonight I flushed a few things that compared favourably to Alston in that portfolio.
I have to ask again - on which criteria is Helen Coonan a "good" performer? It's morbid curiosity, but I can't help but pose the question.
The story mentions a specific principal's profile. The principal was characterized as being "rude, condescending, pompous and arrogant" and "Who could allow someone like her to run a school? ... [she] is a terrible principal. She is a bully who does not care about the students or the school's wellbeing, but rather how they appear to the outside world."
l es/sydney/fort_street_high_school/roslynne__moxham
Judge for yourself what you think of the comments in whole. Her name is Roslynne Moxham: You can view her profile here: http://au.ratemyteachers.com/schools/new_south_wa
This is not defamation! This is telling the truth, from the perspective of the students. They after all are the ones best equipped to evaluate a teacher as they are with them every damn day. I read the comments left by those students after I looked them up just to be curious. HA!!! The way they write overall is intelligent and well thought out. They are students who actually CARE about their education. Should they HAVE to be made to suffer under crappy teachers? Hell, you would think that teachers are like some kind of religious figures these days by the way people kiss their bloody asses so damn much. People often suck at what they do. Teachers are no diffrent. Some teachers suck a dead goats rear and should have never been teachers to begin with! What is wrong with a few students pointing that out? Good for the students!!! Bad teachers should be fired. Maybe the education systems would be better off, no? We do the same for colleges. Why not other schools? It is good that sites like this exist, maybe teachers that suck will pick up their teaching game and make a difference instead of wasting some kids time and energy. Suckers. BTW to the dumb ass teachers trying to get and American web site shut down, good luck!!! It is never going to happen. Fools....
They're not talking about Ratemyprofessors.com, are they? That site is indispensable!
what are they, new to the internet?? we make atrocious comments about people every hour on the hour. it's called freedom of speech.
-Tony
While I'm sure there are many people that rate the teachers based on thier general dislike of their educator, I'm sure there are also many that are willing to give an honest appraisal, positive or negative.
Maybe instead of going on witch hunt, maybe those teachers should sit back and honestly ask themselves what they can do to be better teachers. Maybe they ask for some feedback from their students, the parents and their fellow teachers.
Thats exactly how I'm defining good. Try imagining just about anyone else in her place and imagine how bad things could have turned out over the last few years.
Listen to 3RRR!
Community radio out of Melbourne
http://rrr.org.au/
Cheers,
James
Maybe there should be a site where teachers can rate students....
I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
or FBi in Sydney, 94.5 - no playlists, one in 4 songs has NEVER gone to air before, one in 2 songs is Australian, supports independent music and film. No annoying FM-voiced wankers ("you could win CASH !!!") and The Naked City with Jay Katz on Saturday mornings is a hoot.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I agree completely. FBI in Sydney is a great station. The earlier poster suggested RRR in Melbourne as well. Both are good. Unfortunately I don't live in either city. So my radio choices are nothing.
Thats not entirely true. I still try and listen to Roy & HG and the Coodabeans. Neither are primarily news or music though.
And they says "We are not responsible for users comments" :)
ghostbar page.
I can add that the new.edu.au proxies must be signed into with the student's name. They aren't just filtering, they're watching closely.
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
... because when I looked up the school in England where my wife works, she only knew 3 of the 10 teachers listed.
> Students wouldn't be considered enfranchised citizens if it was guaranteed, since it's perfectly legitimate to discriminate against residents
> by reason of age. Who wants to live in Australia?
At least the students in Australia can usually travel home at the end of a schoolday . . . and not fear ending up in a mortuary!
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
Just a couple of days after I made this post the site came back online.
Damn, lost its effect. I would become active again if the Nazism isn't there.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.