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World of Warcraft Gold Limit Reached, It's 2^31
Mitch writes "Blizzard apparently used signed integers for their World of Warcraft gold values as some people have recently hit the limit of 2^31. "Apparently that amount is 214,748 gold, 36 silver, 48 copper. After you reach that lofty sum, you'll no longer be able to receive money from any source in the game. While some responses to the original posts claim that this exact limit had previously been theorized to exist, there have been no reports of anyone in the game actually achieving this amount via legal means." I guess Blizzard didn't expect anyone to ever get close to that much gold in game."
2^31 should be enough for anyone...
Somehow I think only 'News for nerds' apply for this one.
On three level 70s and one level 61, I still have trouble breaking 3,000 gold between them. How does one get that much gold together in the first place?
It could have rolled over :)
All your gold are belong to us.
if there's nothing to spend it on! That's the reason why the cap was hit, there's no large mansions, yachts, or expensive prostitutes.
Seriously though, since all the beset equipment is earned, not bought (and usually bind on pickup/equip), there's little point in money in WoW in the late game.
Since the money is fiat, i.e. not backed by a fixed standard in the game, have people seen monetary inflation causing price increases in the game, or has the population of players offset any growth in money?
I don't play WoW (played it a few times and have watched some addicts^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfriends play it), so I'm not familiar with how pricing works.
I would assume, though, that if money growth exceeds population/player growth, prices would tend to rise. Is this the case?
Are there any online games that have a relatively fixed amount of money in the game?
At market value of 1000G for 31$ he can sell that amount for 6657.188$.
http://sparter.com/web/shop.jsp#market=WWU01A&quantity=500
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
To everyone saying "Get a Life": What have you done lately that's worth a shit? This doesn't apply to anyone who didn't say it, by the way. Only those who think they are so special that they can tell others to 'get a life'.
I'll give you a hint of things that aren't worth a shit: Playing video games, playing real life sports, drinking, partying, watching tv, watching sports, upgrading your car, buying new toys, buying a new car, hiking, camping, getting married, having a baby, buying a house, and much more..
In fact, anything that doesn't improve the life of the world in general, you can pretty much put in the 'not worth a shit' category.
That seems harsh at first, but playing WoW is how these people have fun, and everything listed above is how other people have fun. Unless you've donated significant money to charity, donated your time to charity, cured a disease, or otherwise improved the world in general, you have no business acting all high and mighty.
Do I claim to fit in the 'worth a shit' category? Not at all. But I don't go telling others how to have fun, either.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Reminds me of when I was using a hex editor to "help myseslf" to some extra gold in Civilization I - I remember I could only up my gold to 3000 pieces, that was the Civ Is upper limit. Very off-putting, when you have to leave the game and start the hex editor just to replenish your reserves!
;o)
How short-sighted of Sid
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Programming error or intern. Maybe it's an internal flag that it's time to get the ball rolling on WOW II. But wait, with that much gold, and the current price of it, they could sell it, and actually move OUT of the mom's basement and get a place of their own. ...
Dude, I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt you. Take it easy.
At least it means there won't be a "Who wants to be a millionaire" in WOW.
A signed 32-bit integer can not store 2^31, but 2^31-1, which would be 214,748 gold, 36 silver, 47 copper.
c++;
But why not unsigned? It's not like you can get negative gold in a mmo, or?
:)
Maybe they plan to open banks in Azeroth that can lend you some gold
This isn't the first time a signed integer has been used to store the amount of money a player has (and I suspect it won't be the last, either) - years ago when I played MicroProse's Railroad Tycoon, I found an interesting bug (feature) with the way cash was stored:
For the game, a negative cash made a small bit of sense (overdraft) and so a signed integer was used. If you just bought up >50% of the shares in your railroad company (to ensure that you couldn't be fired), and then ensured that you had lots of expenditure but no income every financial period, you would end each financial period with more negative cash until it eventually overflowed and became positive. Once positive, with lots of income, it refused to overflow back negative.
I found it interesting, that although a positive overflow was checked a negative one wasn't. The assumption must be that the programmer never really expected the limit condition to be met and so only put a cursory check in - checking for a positive overflow to prevent sudden negative cash (in both games) and the problems that could cause the program and game play, but in MicroProse's case, not bothering with the negative overflow as it was an extreme case not expected - the game play was possibly meant to prevent it and I found the 1 in a whatever chance to get it to happen (I was trying to see how negative a rating I could achieve without being "fired").
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet;
A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell
WoW produces nothing and contributes no product to society besides sucking up ennui.
It's worthless. Completely worthless.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
You have moved into the stage where you no longer feel guilty or question your strange behavior but are now attempting to justify it. Interesting.
On a side note, GuildWars has an artificial limit of 1.000.000 Gold in chest (aka "bank"), which is "worth" only 60 bucks. It took me > 2400 hours of casual gaming to achieve this amount of Gold.
I am not great with signed integers, but wouldn't it make sense for blizzard to use a 32 bit integer, thus
2 ^ 32 = 4,294,967,296 / 2 = 2,147,483,648 - 1 = 2,147,483,647
It seems like the story and summary are wrong
Full Tilt
And anything else on that list is better? Sorry, but it's not.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Using your thinking, all we should do is work and sleep, since no form of entertainment contributes to society.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Euh.... get a life?
It used to just annoy me until someone suggested I should actually go take a hike instead of playing games. Not like 'get lost, loser' but actually take a hike. Like that's somehow better for -anyone- if I do. That's when I realized that entertainment is entertainment, no matter what the form. (Assuming it doesn't actively hurt others, of course.) Why should some hiker feel special because he hikes instead of playing video games?
FWIW: I played D&D twice and found both groups to be complete morons. (I know there are non-moron D&D players out there, but I have yet to actually see them play.) I played WoW for about 2 months before I got bored of it. I'm a gamer, but I can't stand to sit in front of the same game for months at a time grinding. The game has to be interesting, not just a time-sink.
I'm just bloody sick of people getting all high and mighty because they don't play games, and then going and sitting in front of the TV and watching Friends or football.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Well said, you fat bastard!
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
If you think WoW is better than making babies then you clearly need to get out more.
This guy's the limit!
Is it possible to have negative money? If not it would be a simple hack to double the limit by making the gold counter unsigned. Well... you' d have to change every variable that stores gold but it would be easier or at least as easy as changing it to a longlong or something.
An alternative is to purposely let it roll over. Blizzard would be doing those players a FAVOR. ;)
Presumably they didn't use a 64-bit integer to save on bandwidth costs.
Warning: Geekish Post Ahead
If you put a lot of emphasis in controlling inflation in your game then you can keep a game going with the ability to bring new players in cold and they have a better chance of staying. Economics of a game needs to have more of a priority than just killing mobs, crafting new items and completing the quest. Here's why.
I've been an avid gamer for a long time and have always found that economics within the game are never up to par with any standard, let alone a true economic standard. While I understand that there would be too much work in maintaining a true economy in many cases, the fact that the developers of each game don't bother to put in enough money sinks to keep the flow of money in game vs. out of game in check is astounding, especially in the case of WoW with n million players.
One exception to this rule is CCP Games "EVE Online". The game is fundamentally an economics simulator in a space setting. While this sounds about as fun as counting grains of sand on a beach on a windy day, don't knock the premise until you try it. The whole game revolves around the flow of money into and out of wallets via new ships, replacement equipment, massive costs for new skills and upkeep costs for space stations etc. CCP even has an economist on staff to give reports on how the game economics is doing.
Again, this sounds like no fun at all, but EVE has been running for over 4 years, is still increasing in population (albeit slowly) and I still did not have trouble getting started in the game and buying new equipment without it being ungodly hard to make the money to buy it. Oh and it's a fun space simulator too.
Blizzard Exec #2: What kind of person would do this?
Blizzard Exec #1: Only one kind... Whoever this person is, he has played world of warcraft nearly ever hour, of every day, for the past year and a half. Gentlemen we are dealing with someone here who has absolutely no life.
What is the War of Worldcraft thing? I've seen it mentioned here a few times, but nobody actually explains what it does.
Is it a book?
In either case, here at Microsoft, we feel standards are important. And we have fun, too. Doug Mahugh, Microsoft
Murphy? I know that guy. 13th level Warlock? I think I was I ran an instanc with him the other day ... ;)
Bark less. Wag more.
To sum your post up: "Life is only worth more than human excrement if you rather selflessly helped poor and needy people."
Come out of your ivory tower and then do something that is "not bad for most people". That's ususally enough to do your part on making the world a better place. You could also invent a new technology out of pure evil greed for money and still be extremely contributing to society, though.
"Private vices, public benefits" is the keyword here. It doesn't matter if you get filthy rich while really actually improving life for everyone. Filthy rich, greedy, grumpy old bastards can be better to society than the most philantrophic people, because we don't just need people to help people, but also money, knowledge and technology.
I'd rather fear those people that claim to do good for all. They usually end up *forcing* all others to do the same.
clearly you've never played a gnome...
Oh, WoW is surely not better than sex, but it certainly is better than making babies. Babies cost money and rob your sleep. While WoW might rob your sleep as well, the monthly fee for WoW is lot less than what a baby would cost. But there is actually no need to make a baby, just use a contraceptive.
:-)
But on the other hand for most slashdot readers this discussion is purely academic and they have no choice but to play WoW
I didn't realize this was an either/or deal.
Damn do I love my wife!(Who's also my partner in crime in City of Heroes/City of Villains)
At least they handled overflow right. I'm impressed. If it wrapped around to zero, or went negative, some small number of users would be screaming.
Back in the 1980s, the number of ticker symbols for stocks and funds passed 32767, and for a few days, no new companies could get on the exchanges.
I proved a couple of minor quantum mechanical theorems the other day. Does that count?
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
Are you sure? Do we really want these people making babies?
Ok guys, who wants to break him the news that babies aren't delivered by storks....
Blizzard though they would have even the smallest amount of a life(if you can call it that)
As the good doctor never gets tired of pointing out, the problem with World of Warcraft currency is its artificial manipulation by the Federal Orlock reserve. This is why I support RP in his longshot bid for WoW sysadmin.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
It's time to convert to a BIGINT!
Brian.
But...
Playing sports improves your physical endurance.
Working on a car improves your knowledge of mechanics, electronics, etc.
Hiking a new trail every week lets you see new things in the world.
Getting married and having a baby is procreation (do I need to explain how that is useful?).
Going to school and getting a degree means being smarter, richer, better of in all ways. (I know you didn't mention this one, but this is the #1 thing I see people screw over for MMORPGs)
Self-improvement is not worthless to one's self. Sure it's worthless to the world, but you have to balance civic "worth" vs. personal worth. WoW offers almost no chance for self-improvement. While you can argue the social aspect of the game gives you a way of meeting new people or interacting with old friends, it turns out that most people when offered an anonymous mask act like drama queens and morons, so even that aspect is quite limited.
But I'll agree with you that WoW has about the usefulness of watching TV.
----------
Just your ordinary BOFH
http://killertux.org
Trouble is, you have to keep the baby afterwards. If you think WOW= No Life, try living with a 3 month old :)
Puts a crimp in ya gaming, let me tell you that.
MAKING babies? No. HAVING babies? RAISING babies? HELL FUCKING YES!
At least with something like WoW, any sleep you lose is your OWN choice!
=)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Runescape is written in Java, and the number of items is held in an integer. Gold pieces are an item, just like steel longswords. The difference is that nobody wants to accumulate two billion steel longswords.
There at least used to be rare items with market values in the hundreds of millions, and given the inflationary economy likely still are. This is arguably a more serious problem in Runescape than WoW.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Playing it as economics simulator is one option, but you can also ;-)
-grind NPCs. Not the most interesting thing for me but it seems to be fine for some players
-join an alliance and fight for territory in 0.0 space. EVE supports this by giving some privileges to corporations that manage to dominate a system. Makes for an interesting variety of realm versus realm.
-be a griefplayer and shoot newbies that venture into low security space
C - the footgun of programming languages
Did anyone else immediately think of the Southpark episode? I immediately thought of Cartman shouting "Mom! Bathroom! Bathroom!" with Mrs. Cartman running down the basement stairs with a bedpan.
If I fully realized the impact of kids on my life, I would never have had him. I'd cut off my dick with rusty scissors first.
Not kidding, either.
It is precisely because it prevents you from making babies and raising them that WoW = No Life. Sure, babies are a big lifestyle change, but that doesn't mean you don't have a life.
I mean, we DO believe in evolution on Slashdot, right?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
I'm developing a tool for communications experts to analyze information. I have a life.
But in other words you could just call it having a job and thus not worth a shit. 'having a life' really depends a lot on interpretation.
That whooshing sound you just heard was the joke flying right over your head. ;-)
I think that's what "get a life" means to the people who sling the term around.
... but babies are expensive...
I remember the guy that rolled over Defender : Stargate......
That used to be the supreme badge of honor, turning a
coin-op over.
Steve was a total legend at the local 7-11 for being able
to turn games over. I think it had something to do with
his talent for "stringing" machines (tape fishing line to a quarter
and collect credits while someone distracted the clerk)...
Memories.....
music lover since 1969
Maybe the programmer thought it would be easier to detect overflow - e.g. if(x0) x= ((unsigned int)2)31-1
What I really wonder shouldn't he limit be an odd number i.e. 2^31-1?
Hey don't blame me, IANAB
This is clearly a mudflation indicator, i think blizzard designed the game with the 1 year expansion date in mind, and stepping the G cost up with the level advance, since they fail releasing the expansion in the time plan (i think to compete with War and make them hard to get big numbers) macroeconomics of the game are going fubar, since players are receiving too much Gs everyday.
Other important thing is that went ppl stop playing they give their items to some friendly playing, and Gs too, so this keep the money pumping even if they dont play.
The last Gold Sink thats dissapeared in the game are the 40 player pve raids, the repair cost of a evening wiping where massive
reducing the pve in favour of the pvp and the pve instanced players to 25, reduces the cost of gold and reagents in a global scale.
My opinion is that Blizzard manipulated their initial succesful game plan in a corporative scale to reduce the support cost in form
of 40 persons ready servers and pve development, and it goes wrong in the long term experience, cause it was not designed originally that way.
Each day i found more players that find pvp a never ending grind and miss the old scripted raids that maked you work like a family,
worse thing is the gear wiping each expansion that essentialy wipes your grind and leave you with a nice feeling of dissapointment.
Maybe a new main-pve raiding game is what people want and not this senseless pvp carnage.
Clearly, they weren't using a 32-bit signed int since as the poster says, INT_MAX for 32 bits is one less than the limit. Now, since the limit is INT_MAX+1, either they are being inefficient and using an unsigned int or are using a 64-bit int where most of the bits are used for something else. Possibly they are treating a negative number as INT_MAX+1 by special casing it, but that seems unlikely.
Have you ever actually tried hiking, or any kind of physical activity? And no, walking ten metres to get to your car so you can stock up on soda and crisps and chocolate at the nearest convenience store doesn't count.
/. -, maybe you should give it a try. When done right, it can be immensely rewarding and satisfying, in a way that no game ever could.
If you haven't - and I know you haven't, for if you had, you'd realise why it's NOT just another kind of entertainment like watching TV, playing a computer game or reading
Of course, myself, I still like to start up a game and shoot up some demons when I come home after riding my bike for a couple of hours; these things aren't mutually exclusive. But you? You haven't even tried, and now you're trying to diss something you don't even understand. You rather remind of the alcoholic who insists he hasn't got a problem.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
That is PRECISELY how Bill Gates got knighted.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
You've missed the point entirely.
What it ultimately boils down to is this: when you're laying on your deathbed at the end of your days, and you look back on your life, would you rather remember the time you walked off the end of the Appalachian Trail, exhausted and sore, but accomplished, or would you rather look back on those poor n00bs that you pwn3d in Tauren Mill?
It's not about improving the world (although that's a laudable goal), it's about the tapestry of your life being rich and vibrant, rather than lit by the soft glow of a CRT as you grind in Mom's basement.
Seeing the view from the top of Mount Hood, jumping out of an airplane, attending a festival in honor of the village saint in Mexico, or taking a walking tour of New York may not mean anything at the end of the day to anyone but me, but I will have lived a fuller life than those poor bastards who think the end all, be all of life is an epic flying mount, and to me? That's worth it.
Endless discussion.
The "Get-a-Life" phrase shouldn't exist, just ignorant people say it.
Everyone has different goals in life, so, you can't discuss 'What' life really is.
Not even helping society or humanity can be called 'That's life', nope. It's different or similar for everyone and that's it...
My wife is willing to engage in recreational procreation for a MAXIMUM of one hour a day, three weeks a month (no, I've never actually achieved the theoretical maximum monthly score... but I sure as hell try).
That still leaves another 323 hours a month, assuming 6 hours of sleep a day and an 8 hour job.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
Wow buddy.. the guy was simply quoting a scene from South Park and you start flipping out about how worthless everything is. Relax.
[nt]
Ok, generally I agree with you.
The whole family thing, and it doesn't have to be a traditional family, can greatly and positively impact society. I don't have any children, but if I did, I would like to think that not only can I be a positive influence on the world, but that at some point my offspring would be too.
And let's not forget that stuff like buying houses and cars, especially houses, generally helps the economy.
Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
you hang out in the forest and kill boars
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
Who is planning to be old -- I'd like to use up my life and then be done.
in WoW you got no kingdom ... only the horse is left and an empty wallet ;)
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
And look, you're on slashdot too :P
Ok, first off, I'm going to say "get a life" so I can be invited to this magical hate fest.
Second, why are donating significant amounts of money to charity, donating time to charity, curing a disease, or otherwise "improving the world in general" YOUR qualifications for saying WoW players need a life? Because you have assigned some theoretical value to them that's higher than playing sports, drinking, partying, watching tv, watching sports, upgrading your car, buying new toys, etc, etc.
You created your list of other things that aren't worth a crap (and given your attitude and how lovely you must be in public, I'd assume the only one of those you've ever done is play video games) using the exact same rationale that someone who has IRL friends, loves working on their car, getting married, or has a baby would use to determine that WoW is about as low as you can go.
Your arbitrary decision that giving charity money is more "worth a shit" some other things is foolish. I could come in and explain how many charities only serve to funnel money into the hands of directors who get 6 figure salaries and only pennies of every dollar, if that, ever goes to make a difference.
Then, do you know how much charitable donations get soaked up by scammers (read about the post-Katrina "victims" who were miles away from the destruction, but still filed claims that they took with them on vacation, or about large companies like Subway claiming 9/11 benefits despite not actually having locations affected.) Do you need to consider potential racial issues? Like dedicating your life to curing a disease that primarily affects white people? Should that rank lower on your "worth a shit" scale than one that affects all races equally?
You can apply any random set of factors to determine what's worth a shit, and come out with any result you want. I bet I could make a housewife who threw a few bucks to the Salvation Army feel like the scum of the earth.
Why are charity and disease curing the top of your list? Because of lot of people think they're very admirable things to do, including yourself. Now, many members of that set probably also believe that physical exercise is more important than WoW because it means hopefully fewer tax dollars will be spent on homebound dorks who got too fat to leave the house so they went on disability and lived a life of diabetes and poor hygiene until the EMS could bust down the door to restart their heart. True or not? I'm not to judge... me being a healthy, fit person that does bits from BOTH sides of your give a shit scale.
Back to the set, they probably believe introducing a child to the world, one that they will love and provide for, one that they will give every opportunity they can to, and one that might end up following in mommy or daddy's footsteps by being a pillar of society, is BETTER than collecting gold online. Go figure.
A common theme in things at the bad end of your give a shit scale is that they're all for some personal benefit. Like buying a house, getting married, buying toys. I'd like to argue that the positive economic benefits all around of one person's $1,000 monthly mortgage payment (I know, that's not that much, but it's an example) far outweighs the economic benefits of one person's $10 a month online subscription. I can also arbitrarily pull out random factors to show that buying a house is "better" than playing Warcraft. Home owners are more likely to maintain their property so as not to be a nuisance. Home owners are more likely to install environmentally beneficial appliances than apartment managers. Home owners are less likely to be involved in almost all levels of crime than non-home owners.
Some of that is incidental (if I own a home, I'm less likely to jeopardize my house by going out and committing a series of petite larcenies and accruing enforceable judgments.) Even so, the fact remains that for a lot of the things you're saying, there are more associated pluses than minuses. Even using your most selective c
Heed much of what the parent poster is saying. I received a Ph.D., got married (this isn't as easy as it sounds for a slashdotter and does actually involving "having a life"), got a job as a professor at a university, received an NSF grant to do interesting research, traveled around the world, and wrote a couple research papers too. However, I also play a lot of computer games and, in particularly, I have played a fair amount of WoW (in moderation) and can honestly say that it has HELPED me keep my sanity while I've been "getting a life." People shouldn't judge others on how they choose to decompress. Ironically, this also technically applies to people who choose to decompress by telling other people to "get a life" while paradoxically trolling on slashdot. However, if you aren't doing it for entertainment purposes and actually think you are making a meaningful statement, you might want to rethink that.
If they've written code to prevent it from rolling over backwards (spend too much money and you end up with a negative amount, spend too much more and you roll over to huge amounts of positive gold), it would seem logical that they'd do it the other way around at the same time.
Unless, of course, they were morons and simply used integers, instead of classes, to manage the Gold.
Side note: I play a game which has had its share of absurd bugs like this... but we actually run into the limitations of an unsigned int (not a signed int) with things like experience. The total amount of experience needed to get to level 99 is not going to be more than about 3 billion, but past that, you start trading experience for stats (20 million exp = 100 vitality or 50 mana). At about 4.29 billion experience, you have to stop hunting and go trade it in for stats.
No one's gotten above a few million vitality, that I know of, but I have to wonder if there's bugs in which vitality can roll over. I can just imagine some absurdly buff character getting that last 100 vita and ending up at 5.
Of course, there are other things which, it's painfully obvious, are chars. I wonder why no one uses bigint libraries for this sort of thing?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
2^31 is the max amount of copper, not gold.
i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
I prefer to stay in when making babies.
it's = it is
Playing video games, playing real life sports, drinking, partying, watching tv, watching sports, upgrading your car, buying new toys, buying a new car, hiking, camping, getting married, having a baby, buying a house
A lot of these things have secondary advantages that will often give you further enjoyment in the future. For example
Playing Sports: Give you don't have any major medical issues, you improve your fitness, and thus your health will improve.
Buying a new Car: No more major maintenance, more efficient engines, better safety.
Getting Married and having a baby: A good marriage is often a good financial decision, and lowers stress and you now have someone to support you.
Buying a house: Instead if renting, where you're just throwing your money away, you are at least gaining some capital. Choosing wisely what you buy will also yield a financial advantage due to appreciation.
The thing about playing video games is that they don't really have a secondary advantage unless in rare cases. In moderation, I see nothing wrong with it, but I think it's damaging to play them to the point where your health, financial situation and situation with your family degrades. The key is to look at value, and I think people who are addicted to video games are putting immediate utility before long-term utility.
Dammit... I left my mod points in my other pair of pants. +funny... fuckin gnomes
>
> I mean, we DO believe in evolution on Slashdot, right?
Of course we do. We all watched the Mike Judge documentary Idiocracy.
If f(t) = amount_of_fun as a function of time, then I choose to maximize the integral of f(t) over t=0..death. I do so by playing WoW and not breeding. Maybe you maximize your f'(t) by having a good job, popping out one or two sprog, and playing TheSimsReal-Life(tm) with it, sending it to school, educating it, and ensuring that it's as well-equipped for the future as it can be. You limit the number of offspring you produce because you want to provide for them. (Just as I limit the number of my offspring to zero, because I want to provide for me :-)
Problem is, Cletus maximizes his with f''(t) by having his wife pop out a dozen sprog because he lives in a trailer park where there's nothing else to do (except knock up the woman in the trailer next door, and he probably does that a couple of times too). My genes don't get propagated. But Cletus' genes still get propagated better than yours because evolution... doesn't give a rat's ass.
The future belongs to the children -- and they can have it. Hope you enjoy Jerry Springer, 'cuz that's gonna be highbrow entertainment by the next century. I'm planning to be long-dead by then.
Wow, way to much time on your hands. Self-improvement is not worthless at all and many of the things you mention as well. Think about it. It takes but one person to change the world. Had this one person not taken a class they would have little to contribute to the world. Had they decided to not take that hike they would never have noticed that green sludge in the pretty lake and then acted on it. Had they not had that special child the president who would have made a difference would have never been.
Do I play games, watch tv or any of the above. Not likely. I find them to be a waste of my time. If someone else wishes to waste away like that hey great, good for you, glad your happy. Making a difference is what makes me happy and I spend 60+ hours a week doing it.
P.S. This anonymous coward shit is a bit lame don't you think and your captcha sux, it says career if you could actually read it. All scribbled out. So I have 20/20 wtf. I listen to the audio and it spells it out for me. CARER it says. Well looks like something is missing.
Why do game economics need to be more real, or more complex? It's a game, lots is simplified, why not the economy? Who cares if it is realistic so long as it is fun?
Your point with regards to EVE is self defeating since while EVE has been growing, WoW has been growing far faster.
You also have to remember that a game universe doesn't have to have real rule apply because it isn't real. For one, there is no real scarcity. While the game can be set up to have something be harder to get or only have a certain number, that isn't because there is only so much available, it is an artificial constraint. Everything is virtual so there can be an unlimited amount of anything. Also in a game universe there are real, active, deities. The developers are gods in their universe and take an active hand in shaping it. So they can change things as needed.
So for something like inflation one answer that works just fine is to refactor the economy with an expansion. Just change what new things cost. Blizzard did it once already, they'll probably do it again.
I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to make a game with a realistic economy, there is room for many kinds of games out there, but I think it is a false idea that these simple economies are problematic. So people can obtain shitloads of gold, so what? That makes some people happy, and if it makes them happy it is fine. The economy needn't be realistic, and it can be changed at any time it needs to be.
I don't play WoW, I play Nexus TK. It's a small enough community (roughly 500) that there is actually one, unthreaded, in-game board called the "Community Board". This is where people go to bitch and whine about everything, including the economy.
And the economy is not entirely stable, but it is interesting to watch.
Prices are usually relatively stable. Money enters the economy through crafting, mostly -- I can make weapons which are useless to players, but which sell to NPCs. So, over time, the overall amount of money in the economy would tend to go up -- except that money also leaves the economy through NPCs. Example: Most items can be repaired by an NPC, for a fee. NPCs will also sell you various items (which they will only buy back for half-price).
That's going to be the basis of just about any in-game economy -- it enters the game through NPCs, and leaves the game through NPCs. But it's obvious that they've had problems with inflation, as there continue to be quests added which are designed to take money out of the game. Also, as the community generally starts to have more and more items, money, and power, they have to adjust all of these things for the newbie in order to make the game still playable early on.
One way this has been done is, there is a class of weapons available at level 95. These used to cost 100k or so (from players), and they were break-on-death. Level 95 also used to be quite an accomplishment, so this made sense -- a person who made it that high should have money.
In fact, they probably started out costing quite a bit more, as they were originally only dropped by various bosses. When I started playing, they were also available as prizes in Carnage (player-vs-player games). Carnages don't happen every day, and each one is for a specific range of levels or stats, so you might go a week or more without seeing a carnage you could get into. They also cost money to enter, at least 10-20k. The winning team (usually half or a third of those who went to play) got their choice of level 95 weapons. They still sold for 80k or so.
Now, the Foxhunts have been revamped. Instead of being a two-round tournament (you have to beat two teams, so 1/4th of the Foxhunts result in a win), they are now one-round, and have the same prizes. But they still only cost 1k to enter, and happen almost every day, sometimes several times a day. So now there are tons of 95 weapons, and they cost 40k or so.
What generally happens in these games is, the most active 5% players -- people who have no life -- have 95% of the gold and power. (Political power, too -- for example, most in-game crimes are handled by in-game courts and judges.) If a huge amount of money enters the economy, the lower-level or average people like me are still not going to see very much -- and what we do see, we'll immediately want to spend on stuff, usually buying it from these have-no-life players. So, in a sense, the amount of money that's actually in the economy stays about the same, while the amount of money that various bastards have goes up exponentially.
So, considering what I just told you -- I've played the game for over a year, and right now, I have roughly 500,000 gold. Now look at this page. I'm honestly not sure what you would spend 83 million gold on in the game. There are a number of unique items, but still, the most expensive single item I know of is maybe 20 million, if you can get anyone to sell it. (I'm honestly not sure why anyone would; it is the best armor in the game, and there are a limited number of them in the game (less than 50), so I really don't see why you would want the money -- what would you buy with it?)
So, the short answer is, it's complicated. And it doesn't necessarily fit any real model, because if the economy completely explodes, someone can throw a switch and reset it. Example: The Cataclysm was an event in which a bug allowed two people to cooperate and literally double the amount of money they had.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
He's an alcoholic, and your a judgmental ass-clown - Who's better? How can you claim he's never tried something?
When done right it can be rewarding? I've gone hiking and have been rewarded (Years of bike riding and time in the military gave me plenty of time outside). I've sat my ass in front of a computer for 12 hour gaming sessions and have been rewarded as well (I met my GF, and the woman I plan to spend my life with, thru WoW).
I can honestly say I have gotten a bigger reward thru WoW than I got thru all the time I spent riding my bike or running.
Guess what? Not everyone likes spending time outside. You feel rewarded, does that mean someone else will? No. Why? Because everyone is different.
Some people feel rewarded by drinking a bottle of vodka and laughing about how stupid they acted the night before to their drinking buddies. Some people feel rewarded buy memorizing team rosters, watching ever sports game broadcast and winning the Fantasy Foot/base/basket-ball league. Are they worse than you because they don't feel rewarded for spending time with mother nature?
It's judgmental fucks like YOU who assume someone hasn't tried something or someone else will be better if they do what YOU think is good for them... it's judgmental fucks like YOU that make asinine comments like 'omg you remind me of an alcoholic' when you've seen what amounts to be nothing of this person. Well ya know what? Fuck you. I will be rewarded knowing that you've lost sleep because I refuse to go for a walk. Guess that means I'm drunk while I write this because I'm somehow an alcoholic.
You can brake the habbit! Joyn Gremmer Nazy's Anonimouse today! Inn just 3 weaks yule never have to worri about that brain itch that cums from watchyng totyl ideots butcher the engrish wangwage!
In base 2, that is exactly 10X10^30
That depends if your proofs are correct, and if the theorems had already been proven.
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
> having a baby
A baby is a life... they got one. Bad example =-)
Start smoking. It helps.
What I consider immensely rewarding and satisfying is not necessarily the same as what you see in those terms. I might get some satisfaction out of it, but don't find hiking "rewarding" at all. I do enjoy the sightseeing, and the actual walking is something I have to cope with to get some really breathtaking scenes. However, give me an interesting maths or programming problem and I *will* feel thoroughly fulfilled at solving it.
One of those rare moments of pure, unalloyed joy was a university project to implement lambda calculus. Beta reduction was easy, but figuring out how to rewrite expressions to make alpha conversion work was a pain, back then, and I remember there was an issue with making sure evaluation was lazy, so we didn't fall into infinite loops. Yet, when I finally got the whole thing working, wrote a simple function to translate integers to lambda expressions and another to convert back, and got the freaking thing adding integers , then multiplying them (hell, multiplication was *slow*), I can't begin to describe how damn happy I felt. It wasn't the prettiest piece of code ever, but boy was I proud at something I created.
Back to physical exercise, I practised Karate for several years, and found it a lot more rewarding than most single-person physical activities because of the game-like aspects of its combat component. Figuring out how to take advantage of my advantages versus my opponents while minimizing the impact of my disadvantages is quite satisfying, in a way that taking a hike really can't match. Sure, you might like it better, but the satisfaction we each derive of our preferred form of fun is not something that can be compared.
Games, as a concept, can be fulfilling to play. Ask any chess or go master. Sure, video games might not be there, in most cases, but people find fulfilment in different things that you or I don't necessarily understand. Like the guys who play super mario bros. to the point where they're setting speed run records.
damn.
Peter
Downsize DC Today!
AHAHAHAHA What a fucking TARD.
I'm just big-boned, you insensitive clod!
Short answer "Yes".
Long answer "Yes, but not too many and preferably when they are in a position to look after them properly. I am assuming this is easier in Europe (not sure about Scandinavia) than anywhere else in the world (free education and health). What you don't want is an unhealthy, unsupported, ageing population, that will end in tears".
The former high school football players working at Google. You can be smart, physically fit and well socialized. It just requires more work than the average "lazy jock" or "lazy geek" is willing to put in.
Ed, sign off, you're making an idiot of yourself. What's with all this alcoholic and assholes business? You're not making any sense.
"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? NO, says the man in Washington, it belongs to the poor. NO, says the man in the Vatican, it belongs to God. NO, says the man in Moscow, it belongs to everyone."
no text
Medium cat is MEDIUM.
Friends?! Update your indignant slashdot rebuttal to keep with the times.
2^31 -1 seems like a more than generous limit for real life too!
Ah, the joys of limitless possibilities. Wait, never mind. ;)
"Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
Of the folks that play WoW or any MMORPG in a potentially "unhealthy" portion that causes folks to tell them to "get a life" versus those who are "sitting in front of the TV and watching Friends or football":
- How many of those folks have stable jobs? ANY job?
- How many don't eat right (and by right I mean not eat a meal and eat simply snacks all day)
- How many get up out of their seat much?
The folks that are too addicted to this game do MANY things that are harmful for themselves.
Also, I call bullshit that "having a kid" does NOT improve or somehow change the lives of others. If NOBODY had a kid, we wouldn't be here. You're somebody's kid, I'm somebody's kid, Sir Tim Berners-Lee is somebody's kid, and even fricking Jack Thompson is somebody's kid.
In summary, don't get a life. GET A CLUE!
Pancakes. Oh I blew it.
How about studying and getting straight A's to bring myself out of poverty while I work as well and try to better myself for my family.
My wife is the addict and she helps level my character because I have more important things to do than play wow all day. We play occasionally as its our time.
In my mind she earned it after going to get her masters and working full time as a teacher and also tutoring after school. I assume I have to earn my right to play it if I have people dependent on me. Why should I play games? Can't I be making money doing something? I have seen people flunk out of school and ruin their lives for not working hard enough professional so yes it makes a difference. This is true when you have people dependent on you.
Working is the whole meaning of life or I should say a rather big proportion.
http://saveie6.com/
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The irony being that Europe is exactly one of the places with an aging, shrinking population (unless they let in enough Arabs and Africans, I suppose).
JOIN US FOR PONG!
They have indeed already been proven, I suspect. Ah well...
OTOH, it might be that in the near future I prove some other, novel theorems (correctly), for which these known theorems were necessary practice. In that case, was proving them worthwhile?
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
That's not his thinking at all.
He stated, in order for you to feel superior, and decide if what others are doing is "worth a shit", you yourself should do nothing but work and sleep, contributing to society.
Therefore, if you don't feel superior, and don't decide what others are doing is "worth a shit", then you're welcome to participate in whatever recreational activity you wish.
1&1 - Cheap domain and web hosting.
10 years ago, I used to do the same thing on Tomb Raider 1 savegame files, to get more ammunitions for various weapons. I was such a noob at the time that when I discovered the number were stored in little-endian, I thought it was some kind of obfuscation the developers came up with to confuse people trying to hex edit the files.
You have completely missed the point of someone tell you to "get a life". It's not that they think any of the activities you've listed are intrinsically "better" than playing WoW, its that they probably have done many, if not all of these things, whilst you have, well, just played WoW. I'm sure they'd say the same thing to someone who spends >60 hours a week on any single activity. People who work ridiculously long hours would have people telling them to get a life all the time. "Life" is about your experiences, not your experience points.
I'm laughing now, but then again, I'm abusing NOx.
Disclaimer: I cannot stand playing any MMO, WoW included, for any period of time worth the initial investment.
I have a friend who plays WoW. He tends to be the group leader when he participates in raids and instances (no, I also don't know what either of those refer to in the context of WoW, I just know that they involve groups and he leads the groups). Talking to him, I find that he has learned a lot about leadership by playing WoW and, IMO, that knowledge is far more important than physical endurance or seeing new things in the world.
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
No, I'm your manager. You're fired.
I am! That was a funny reply!
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
Standard disclaimer: I don't play WoW. I cannot stand playing any MMO I've run into yet for an appreciable length of time
Less than standard disclaimer: After writing this, I realized that the lack of a method of conveying tone over the internet may lead to somebody assuming a defensiveness here. In my head, this came out as calm and explanatory, like two reasonable people sitting down and talking, and that's how I want it to be read.
I have a friend who took a year off between high school and college and walked the Appalachian Trail. He has some of the most amazing pictures and he's incredibly proud of this accomplishment. I admire that he did something he could be so proud of. Good for him. I don't want any of it.
I've been hiking. I'm not a fan of it. My life could not possibly be any more full if I were to spend my time walking the Appalachian or doing any of the things you list near the end, because they simply don't mean much to me. They might be fun, I might do some of them some day, but they aren't a measure of fullness to me. What I think is a measure of how full my life is is the people in it and the time I spend with them. That might be time spent gaming (if I were into WoW, that might be time spent pwning n00bs in Tauren Mill, whatever that is), that might be time spent just sitting under the stars, or a variety of other things. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to you, but it means everything to me, and it's not your place to judge based off of the fact that some one does or does not play games in their spare time.
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
In my day a signed int only went to 2^15, and 2^31 was a signed long.... and you better had a good excuse for using one of those.
46137
I remember doing the same with and editor and saved mechs from the old MechWarrior series on DOS (and later Win95). You could put something like 20+ lasers and 20 heatsinks per apenditure into your mech and blow up everything and everybody with one hit with the heatbar not even budging. Very neat. But it got boring after 5 minutes. :-)
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
"Get a life" means "get a social life." Extroverts place high value on social interaction, and view pastimes which do not involve face-to-face interaction as undesirable.
Introverts tend to value more cerebral activities, and are dumbfounded by the values of the extroverts.
You aren't going to resolve this difference bitching about it on the internet, so just Chill. The Fuck. Out.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
No, not at all. See Adam Smith's invisible hand. Self-improvement has resulted in pretty much every advance in mankind's standard of living.
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
If you come from a traditional Asian family, then yes.
Play Command HQ online
Ok, so after reading this and the responses there is still one thing that I have always questioned regarding any game where you can build a stash of something. Why on Earth are there actual limits to how much you can acquire? If I wanted to acquire 10^10000 gold why can't I? (Time issues aside of course) I understand that back in the beginning there were limited resources in terms of memory so things could only go so far but in todays uber PC's can't programmers find a way to allow for large quantities of whatever?
Yep.
Sorry, I'm usually not one trying to force my view on others, but that statement is just complete nonsense. Procreation is about the most destructive thing a person with normal power (i.e., the ones not having access to A Big Red Button or something similar) can do.
May we live long and die out
If you have accumulated that much gold, WoW probably is your life, or at least your bread and butter
Anybody accumulating that much gold in the game is undoubtably a gold farmer making a career of WoW.
My rights don't need management.
Chill man, that dialogue between Blizzard execs about somebody having no life is from the SouthPark WoW episode. Which was funny as hell.
I would have to dissagree with you here due to several reasons.
1.- Not everyone is you, and as such blanket-labelling an action as 'useless' is inaccurate.
2.- Not everyone develops in the same way, you can have someone who does mechanics or any of the actions you described and learn as little or possibly less than someone who is intelligently watching TV.
3.- Due to the above correlations I fail to see how you achieved a +5, Insightful
-Your neighborhood AC
I'm sorry you missed the point, the ones hitting the limit are not playing, for them it's an addiction and it should be treated as any other addiction.
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
You and Cletus are about on the same thought level. That being said, his path is more intellectually challenging, has better highlights, and will likely lead him to care about something more than maximizing his fun function.
Play Command HQ online
WoW > Making Babies == Natural Selection
I disagree. How many people have you *met* while watching TV? At least MMOs have the virtue you can interact with other people putting it slightly above watching TV, in my opinion.
I still don't have my elite flying mount ...
You have no guarantee that your babies will, either.
It's natural selection at work.
True, but 2^31-1 is so much cooler. It's prime after all.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
In Dark Age of Camelot. So what? I don't know. :(
Will you delete my comment?
No. We believe that discussions in Slashdot are like discussions in real life- you can't change what you say, you only can attempt to clarify by saying more. In other words, you can't delete a comment that you've posted, you only can post a reply to yourself and attempt to clarify what you've said.
In short, you should think twice before you click that 'Submit' button because once you click it, we aren't going to let you Undo it.
Answered by: CmdrTaco
Last Modified: 7/10/02
Property is theft.
Yes, go read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations". At LEAST read book .
I already have one!
If you think making babies is better than WoW then you clearly have not had enough babies.
There is something to be said for that. As long as you remember the limits of the medium.
If you do pickup-groups (PuGs), you'll be grouping with 4 other strangers who have different motivations and styles, and the 5 of you will need to figure out how to accomplish objectives without stepping on each other.
Sometimes, that works well. Other times, it results in constant party deaths (a.k.a. "wipes" where everyone dies and you spend 15 minutes getting back to where you were), or flaring tempers, trampled egos, or fights over a piece of loot that will be replaced two weeks later. So either you learn how to work within a dysfunctional group and still get things accomplished, or else you spend your days soloing.
Some of the things that can be learned:
- How to lead, without being bossy or overbearing
- Picking up on other people's motives (good or bad)
- Adjusting for a different style
- Working together
- Dealing with disappointment without freaking out
- Interacting with complete strangers
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
It's a vicious cycle; and the sooner we break out of it the happier we'll be. Yes, socializing (with non-retard-jocks) is greater than playing WoW or any video game for that matter. I just don't believe it enough to do it yet~
Ah, so evolution is okay as long as it kills God and lets us give in to hedonism without consequences, but it's not okay if becomes the part of the basis of the replacement ethical system, since the whole point of the exercise is to justify epicurean pursuits. Got it.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I use to play in a wow guild on illidan (Blood Legion). The Guild Master (Zxtasy) hit this limit a few months ago. I believe he was the first to do this. http://www.bloodlegion.com/wow/screens/691k3KN.jpg
Hes definitly not an engineer...
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
"Why should some hiker feel special because he hikes instead of playing video games?"
:)
Simple - because in this instance they aren't as good as you, can't handle it, and seek to turn your advantage into a disadvantage. It happens all the time - that why some things are "real" sports and others are "not real" - in almost every single case "not real" sports are one that the individual can not compete in. This extends to many things other than sports - never let many artists know that you think code can be an art form because you will be quickly told "yours doesn't count".
You want to see anything that isn't "real" just make it such that whatever that person has in spades isn't what it takes to win. I practiced Judo for about 4 years - it is one thing that is highly skill over brawn (especially for ones that are *really* good at submissions and chokes). It is amusing to watch a 220+ pound football player (in college so quite athletic) get choked out by a 98 pound female declare Judo a non-sport that only losers would play
note: that's not to say everyone does that, the vast majority of people accept it and continue on and some worked to get where they needed to be to compete (the latter being the competitive people who were secure in themselves). Only those that are insecure in themselves have that need to win or ridicule anyone who beats them and this is true in pretty much *anything*.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
- May limitless supplies of fill-in-the-blank fortune-cookies be supplied in Your convenient future; preach the word as they seem to thine convene!
A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
Every now and then someone on the eve-forums complains that his wallet is like -430 million ISK. When CCP finds out that someone bought ISK out of game from some website, which is not allowed by the EULA they will withdraw that amount from the players wallet.
Now that is some tough cookie to get that amount of ingame money back, since you won't be able to buy any ammo to go out and shoot NPC's and earn it all back.
Always a funny thing to read thou
Believing in evolution doesn't require believing it's still happening to our species right now. Our society has made life so safe for humans that you have to be monumentally stupid or unlucky to die before you're done breeding. Overall this is a good thing, but it carries the consequence that selection pressure has disappeared for problem-solving, curiosity, courage, prudence, and most every other intellectual quality we value. All that remains is selection pressure for willingness to breed, and that plummets when people are educated and (especially women) have opportunities to do anything else with their lives.
All this tells me that parenthood is actually an unrewarding ordeal, and our society needs to lighten the burden (the nuclear family is historically very unusual, and just too damn small) and/or unclench our asses about immigration. Lying to people about how great it is doesn't really work anymore.
The candle that burns brightest is the first to go out, as they say. So grind until you're level 70! Partake in the most epic quests there are! Fight many PvP battles! Leave a mark upon the gaming world that will last for at least three months after you die of starvation in front of your PC! Truly, that is a life lived.
[insert witty quote here]
[insert witty quote here]
If you think WoW is better than making babies then you clearly need to get out more.
Maybe he meant better for the health of the planet?
-G
www.pixelstatic.com
Sure, if the practice was actually productive. If you were doing busywork for some prof, though, then no (except in that it allows you to get a piece of paper saying you're safe to hire).
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
I cooked dinner. That's certainly a better use of my time than amassing a WoW fortune. And having a home cooked dinner is certainly "worth a shit" so your gross generalization is already falling apart.
Other things worth a shit that don't change the world: calculus, learn a second language(I recommend neu latine), getting the brakes on your car checked, learning to play a musical instrument, managing to park your car between the lines (very important).
WoW gold and slashdot both fall in the "not worth a shit" category.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
My friend is a GM on a hacked server, and he tried giving himself a vast amount of gold. I immediately recognized the resulting cash as that magical 32 bit unsigned integer.
So it is something that has been verified for a while.
Treated like an addiction? I doubt there is any medical or psychological reason for them to waste their time. There is currently no pill to cure being a loser.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Spoken like someone who has never given birth!
Why don't you wear a fat-suit for several months, and then pass a softball through your penis for 6 hours, and then set your alarm clock to ring every 2 hours all day and night for a year, and every time it rings, you have to go smell a pile of feces. Then you tell me how much fun it was.
You've got to be the world's stupidest person if you're having a baby for *fun*. That's right up there with "I want to be a monk so I can meet girls" or "I want to be an air traffic controller so I can take it easy".
StoneCypher is Full of BS
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Do you honestly believe that your children will?
Every Saturday morning at college, with nothing better to do, and not having stayed up late on a date or drinking or something productive, I would go down to the arcade and play games, primarily Mystic Marathon, a cutsey game where you ran a marathon through mystical things.
I got pretty good at it, but one day I found I could play it indefinitely. I guessed they had set it slightly easier to attract other business, who knows.
Anyway, after about an hour and a half on the same quarter, I was getting bored, so I just left it and went to get some Big Macs at McDonald's, then ate 'em back in my dorm room and cried myself to sleep, as being a video game star didn't get me any girls.
Losing weight over the summer sure as hell did tho, but that's another tale.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Dude Mystic Marathon is one thing, but Defender: Stargate is a pretty gnarly game......
Steve turned it over twice, every kid in the neighborhood came by to watch.
Steve didn't have a girl either, but that was because he was 15 and smoked pot and marlboros, played defender too much, and rode a bmx bike.
He also lived next door to 7-11 and knew how to string the games....
music lover since 1969
>> Getting married and having a baby is procreation (do I need to explain how that is useful?).
There are two possibilities:
1) It generates another Gold Farmer (Ni Hao!)
2) It generates another Gold Buyer.
Either way, it keeps the WoW economy rolling!
-H