Denon's $499 Ethernet Cable

Guysmiley777 writes with what looks like a very late (or very, very early) April Fool's joke: "Denon's $499 Ethernet cable 'brings out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction.' Sure, that seems plausible. After all, nuances in digital signals are so subtle. Oh, and 'signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer.'" Considering that $499 will get you a competent laptop these days, I wonder how big the market is for such a thing — then I look at Stereophile magazine's annual list of recommended components. The "view more images" link shows that they take cable porn seriously at Denon.

Comments

It's worth every penny

[Marcion]

...until your cat chews through it.

Ah well, there is a mug born every minute. I start selling $500 USB cables, anyone want one?

Re:It's worth every penny

[sakusha]

..or until you pull the end through a snarl of cables and the plastic tab breaks off.

Re:It's worth every penny

[black6host]

I'd be willing to bet it's a typo. Look at the pricing of the other cables (HDMI, IPod) etc. They're more like 60.00 to 100.00. Still expensive, but not ridiculous like 499.00 for an ethernet cable.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Blakey Rat]

My audio cables are temporally-shielded to prevent interference caused by the EM wake of time travelers. A steal at only $800. An inch.

Re:It's worth every penny

[You ain't seen me!]

I start selling $500 USB cables, anyone want one? I'll buy one - just tell me it will it make my 1.1 ports run at 480Mb/s.

I'll also buy one of the $499 UTP cables - I'm sure it will make my 640x320 100Kb/s divx films look great on the 50inch Plasma TV.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Usquebaugh]

In free advertising for Denon

1 Advertise cable with crazy price
2 Post story to /.
3 Hordes click to laugh
4 Some buy other cables
5 $$$

Re:It's worth every penny

[fm6]

No, I'm saving up for a gold-plated toilet.

This is only an extreme case of a standard marketing gimmick. I remember the first time I bought a component stereo, I saw a spool of "speaker wire" and thought, "Well, I've got speakers, so I guess I need speaker wire." Later I discovered that ordinary lamp wire works just as well, is a lot cheaper, and doesn't kink so easily.

But my favorite is this business of putting gold on connectors. This actually makes sense if your signal uses a lot of bandwidth, so you want to maximize the quality of the connection. And indeed it was when video components became a consumer item that they started doing this. But once consumer began to associate "gold connectors" with "quality" they started putting gold on everything.

Re:It's worth every penny

[fm6]

So, you just secure it in place with duct tape. And for that, you want high fidelity duct tape...

Re:It's worth every penny

[donguru]

There is, however, a significant difference between using two point and four point barbed wire for speaker cables. Per http://www.tinaja.com/glib/marcia.pdf

Re:It's worth every penny

[niko9]

Don't laugh.

Check this out: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/03/300_audiophile_grade_power_cable_is_really_worth_15-2.html

And the actual thread at Head-Fi: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my-cat-tore-up-my-virtual-dynamics-power-3-a-293165/

What's surprising about this is some of the comments made by the company rep.

Re:It's worth every penny

[code4fun]

They probably using pesos for currency.

Re:It's worth every penny

[markov_chain]

I'll buy one - just tell me it will it make my 1.1 ports run at 480Mb/s.

It will make your 1.1 ports run at 480Mb/s. *holds out hand*

Re:It's worth every penny

[user-hostile]

I have a question. I'd like to use this cable as a multi-function ethernet cable. If I plug the cable in backwards (not according to Denon's arrows), will my internet connection go back to 1993?

Re:It's worth every penny

[flappinbooger]

I bet it has something to do with the nature of the cable. It is probably the twisted pairs. They are hand twisted by hot 6 foot tall blond virgins with phd degrees.

That way you're guaranteed the best and most precise twistiness for your twisted pairs.

See, they don't tell you that in the ad because it's a trade secret. The other cables are just twisted by a machine or something, thus the mundane pricing.

Re:It's worth every penny

[glitch23]

Ah well, there is a mug born every minute. I start selling $500 USB cables, anyone want one?

Circuit City called. They want you to stop undercutting their prices.

Re:It's worth every penny

[History's Coming To]

Hmm...I'm not an audio geek, but my flatmates make a living from music with a lot of talent and little technical knowledge. And I help them on the techie side. Suffice to say, Denon have made their brand very clear, and very un-buyable to me, and hence to a group of musicians.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Robber Baron]

I bet it has something to do with the nature of the cable. It is probably the twisted pairs. They are hand twisted by hot 6 foot tall blond virgins with phd degrees.

That way you're guaranteed the best and most precise twistiness for your twisted pairs.

See, they don't tell you that in the ad because it's a trade secret. The other cables are just twisted by a machine or something, thus the mundane pricing. Even if they were twisted out of 6 foot tall blond virgins' pubic hair, it's still not worth it!

Re:It's worth every penny

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not right. One of the steps is supposed to be:

???

Re:It's worth every penny

[SMS_Design]

No, I'm saving up for a gold-plated toilet.

Gold plated? Peasant.

Re:It's worth every penny

[ShieldW0lf]

Dude, you're missing the point. You hang iPods off the end of them, then hang them on your rear view mirror, like fuzzy dice. It's geek bling.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Foo2rama]

I bet it has something to do with the nature of the cable. It is probably the twisted pairs. They are hand twisted by hot 6 foot tall blond virgins with phd degrees.

Do you have any idea how high strung a hot tall blonde with a Phd and is a Virgin would be??? Of course that may be the point...

Re:It's worth every penny

[kesuki]

yeah they do, but it's annoying using a multi-meter to verify the integrity of the Ethernet cable every time the plastic tab breaks off..

Re:It's worth every penny

[jimmydevice]

For $499.00 is should come with a hot 6 foot tall blond virgin.

Re:It's worth every penny

[prestomation]

Who modded this informative?

Oh wait..definitely informative

Re:It's worth every penny

[flappinbooger]

For $499.00 is should come with a hot 6 foot tall blond virgin. Aaaaaand that's all folks! Jimmy has wrapped up the entire thread.

Re:It's worth every penny

[ozbird]

...until your cat chews through it.

That's nothing; try rabbits. I've seen photos of what happens when a rabbit gets to play in a server room; it's not pretty. (The rabbit won.)

Re:It's worth every penny

[TechForensics]

Hey, don't joke! This is dead serious! Take a look at this note from the designer of the Tesla Cable series:

On the dawn of discovery I was hoping to develop cables that would be small, light and flexible while maintaining the same levels of performance obtained in our X2 Series cables. What I was not prepared for was the break-through that would become the TESLA Series. After a long trial and error process in developing an electromagnetic lens geometry we arrived at what would become the TESLA Tricon in the summer of 2006. I remember in vivid detail that afternoon when I first connected two interconnects comprised of two TESLA Tricon geometries in parallel, (now the Precision Reference) and listened to a recording I've been using since 1995. Fifteen seconds into the first track I shot up and ran from my listening chair to find Eliott (my co-developer in the TESLA Series). I could not believe my ears and wanted to find out if something had been changed in our system that I was not aware of, (we love to tweak our system and I needed to know if he had changed something). What I heard was unbelievable! The sound stage had moved out so far past the boundaries of our listening room that I suspected a major change had been made to our listening room's acoustics. Furthermore, I was hearing subtle and not so subtle details and frequency extension from bottom to top that I've never before heard from this recording. The truly amazing thing was that this detail and signal speed was presented in a way that was also much more musical than it had been before. By comparison the sound we had been making was grainy, opaque, spatially compressed and slow with ill-defined bass. Now the sound was HUGE with amazing air that seemed to decay into infinity. The sound had a transparent "see through" quality and was absolutely effortless and grain free. The sound stage had also moved back several feet except when instruments were recorded front and center and these were presented further forward than before. I was beginning to realize that every cable I or anyone else had ever developed was spatially compressed- vertically, laterally, and horizontally. I was also hearing images in a near 360-degree sound field that "wrapped" around my listening chair. Before the Tricon we had hints of this envelopment but never to such an extent. Lastly low frequencies, (a long time virtue of Synergistic Research cables) were now tighter and went deeper with amazing power and control. This was major improvement in an area that I did not think could be improved upon.

Sort of opens your eyes, doesn't it?

Re:It's worth every penny

[Slacksoft]

A wire by any other name would work just as sweet.

Re:It's worth every penny

[jkxx]

Actually even the audiophiles aren't going for this one (link to head-fi): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/500-cable-334319/

Nevertheless the thread over there is just as entertaining :)

Re:It's worth every penny

[networkBoy]

?!?
you don't have at least the cheapo cable checker from paliden tools that steps through each signal with LEDs?

I use that when connection quality doesn't matter. When it does, or for *long* cable runs I use a wirescope.
-nB

Re:It's worth every penny

[networkBoy]

Silver is better than gold all the way around with only one exception: it oxidizes.
If you want the *best* signal quality possible, it's silver plated copper stranded wire (or Coax if that's the app) with silver connectors both on the cable and console. The connectors need to mate very tightly and ideally have a small gasket to seal them.

That's what I use on my GHz frequency equipment. I'd use it on my video editing gear as well, but some conspiracy has landed me with only gold plate beryllium copper contacts as the best I can find...

for average joe consumer though, they buy overpriced cables with high-end looking terminations badly assembled ending up with this as the result.
-nB

Re:It's worth every penny

[postbigbang]

Uh, no. Gold is a nice conductor, no doubt, but the biggest problem is the GB# modular adapter's parallel tines. It's there that near-end crosstalk causes inter-modulation distortions and occasional phase shifting problems. Gold won't cure it. A re-design of the modular adapter would be wonderful but unlikely these days.

In audio, gold is nice because it doesn't tarnish. Much.

Cable capacitance is the biggest problem with the cable, hence twisted pairs do a nice noise cancelling job at the cost of mutual inductance. Gold doesn't do much here, either. Optimumly, and inexpensively, the nicest thing you can do is to use the highest efficiency per watt speaker delivered to enable the widest dynamic range of the transducer system. In short, more efficiency is better, and just use thick gauge, short-as-you-can cables with nice speakers, a good preamp or receiver, and a power amp that can deliver current and low harmonic or slewing distortions.

Then clean your ears.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Alsee]

What? You have a solid gold toilet?

Well I shit gold.
And I flush it.

Bite me.

-

Re:It's worth every penny

[moosesocks]

I wouldn't confuse Denon's consumer arm with its professional-range of products. They're likely run by completely different people, and very likely in different parts of the world. Various other companies in the industry (Yamaha, Sony, etc...) operate in the same manner.

If your flatmates are musicians, chances are that they won't be remotely interested in the consumer-grade stuff that Denon have to offer. It's also pretty difficult to pull any sort of BS in the professional sector, because their clients are professionals who are trained to know better. I honestly wouldn't base your purchasing decision around this sort of thing.... Talking from experience, Denon's professional division make fairly decent products.

"Audio Geeks" can more or less be divided into three categories, and there's a bit of superstition involved with all of them; audiophiles, recording folks, and live sound guys. Whereas audiophiles tend to be full of shit, an experienced recording/live-sound guy will know a variety of tricks to get the best sound out of a PA, properly balance an EQ to a room, etc...

Re:It's worth every penny

[seaturnip]

Not true, two people in that thread are basically going for it:

Audioquest makes a "high-end" ethernet cable also, but it's only $25. I think I'd try it first before plunking down $500.

Guys... if I was much richer than I am, I'd be blowing 500 clams on a cable. Just to give it a whirl. In reality, there is likely a point of diminishing returns in most systems. My guess is that point occurs at about 100 bucks for ICs and maybe, just maybe a tad more for speaker wire, dependent on the lengths and gauge.

So these people feel a 500$ ethernet cable is out of their price range but they might plop for a 25$ or 100$ one. Idiots.

Re:It's worth every penny

[HobophobE]

You know... it does. All this money wasted on audio, haven't they figured out that audio is transmitted through... air?

Seriously, what kind of crappy capitalism are we going for people? We need to be sold buckets (yes, buckets!) of air to fill our home theaters with so that we get perfect sound quality. After all, the sound can only be as good as the air it is moving through.

I can see it now, rich guys wearing gas masks, nay, full hazmat gear, sitting in plush recliners because sound travels that much better in an atmosphere of 5% Tellurium Hexafluoride.

(God I hope this doesn't actually happen, but I'm deathly afraid that it will.)

Re:It's worth every penny

[ari_j]

Even if they were twisted out of 6 foot tall blond virgins' pubic hair, it's still not worth it! Depends. Do the cuffs and collars match?

Re:It's worth every penny

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you even look at the diagrams? The tab is inset.

That's what the extra $498 is for.

Re:It's worth every penny

[lazlo]

Interestingly, from the picture, it appears that this isn't actually an Ethernet cable. At the length that it is, it would certainly work as one, but it looks to me like the "cable porn" portion shows W/O:O/W:W/B:B/W:W/G:G/W:W/Br:Br/W, which would put one pair of an Ethernet connection on the orange twisted pair, but the other pair would be split between the white/blue and the green/white. So, one pair would not actually be twisted.

They don't actually call it an Ethernet cable, and I'd bet that they're using the pairs that are appropriately twisted, which means that an actual Ethernet cable will have the "wrong" pairs twisted for their application, and thus have a higher rate of errors. It's even possible that they're sending data across this cable at a high enough rate, and without sufficient error checking/correcting, that it would make a difference. If that is, in fact, the case, then they are not so much being complete dicks for selling this cable at this price, but instead are being complete dicks for having such a shoddy and poorly thought-out design for their component interconnects that it requires a $500 cable to mask their incompetence.

Re:It's worth every penny

[zippthorne]

Ironicaly, for actual ductwork, what you really want is "high-temp" tape, which is pretty much aluminum foil with an adhesive backing.

Re:It's worth every penny

[mrchaotica]

I use that when connection quality doesn't matter.

You do realize we're talking about a $499 ethernet cable that claims to "bring out nuances" here, right? If the idiot believed that the $499 cable was actually different in the first place, then he would only be compounding his idiocy by failing to care whether the repair was sloppy.

Re:It's worth every penny

[jcr]

Gas? Bah!

What you really need is full immersion in flourinert at your precise body temperature, so that the sound is efficiently transmitted through the fluid into your bones.

-jcr

Re:It's worth every penny

[dreddnott]

That is an incredible thread. I didn't know people this gullible existed. What an amazingly profitable scam business!

Re:It's worth every penny

[billcopc]

It's also pretty difficult to pull any sort of BS in the professional sector Really ? They're just as gullible as the next guy, for the most part. Many musicians hold an almost religious adherence to brands and product lines. They've been brainwashed by the "Pro costs 7x more" attitude that has hatched all these scam shops. Don't ask a sound engineer to tell you why he prefers Brand-X over Brand-Z, there are only two answers to that question: either he'll tell you that's all he's ever used and all he ever will, or he read a favorable review in "Sound on Sound Magazine", which is like saying he found human life on earth.

The truth is: very few people have the time, money and know-how to objectively compare products and sniff out the best ones. Adoration within the industry is mostly focused on money spent, i.e. the dude with a 25'000$ amp stack will get more oohs and aahs than the other guy with only a 9'000$ amp stack.

That's how you wind up with mixing engineers chopping up their perfectly fine $500 Sennheiser cans, to solder a $1500 headphone cable right onto the speaker leads. They should be shot.

Re:It's worth every penny

[plasmacutter]

No, I'm saving up for a gold-plated toilet. Gold plated? you cheap bastard!

Re:It's worth every penny

[dkf]

Even if they were twisted out of 6 foot tall blond virgins' pubic hair, it's still not worth it! Well, we've got virgins galore on /. and some of them must be 6 foot tall and blond, so I think a live test should be possible...

Re:It's worth every penny

[Neeth]

I am interested in this twisted 6 foot tall blond virgins' pubic hair product.
I would also like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:It's worth every penny

[mrbooze]

I was just about to ask something along these lines. I couldn't find anything on their site actually documenting this as an ethernet cable.

Has anyone actually confirmed that this is just some kind of gussied-up Cat-6 cable or something? The most I could find on some quick searching was the Denon Link was it was a type of digital audio connector.

It's certainly ridiculously overpriced bullshit no matter what it is, but it seems like people are just assuming it's an ethernet cable because it looks like an ethernet cable.

Re:It's worth every penny

[spike1]

called Sven

Re:It's worth every penny

[Splab]

Had a rabbit once, its amazing what that creature can chew through and survive. Wasn't uncommon to suddenly have a blue flash followed by darkness if we forgot to keep an eye on the critter. Many a 220v. cables had an untimely death due to that critter.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Antique Geekmeister]

I've known several such Ph.D's. They used to use redheads to do token ring, but she dated the only geek who wasn't frightened off, which is why they don't sell it anymore.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Antique Geekmeister]

Oh, much easier. Just seal the room and pump out all that interfering air. Perhaps we could find a way to convince most of the Stereophile customers to do so all in one big concert hall?

Re:It's worth every penny

[pizpot]

"...aluminum foil with an adhesive backing."

It is great for correcting the airflow of computer cases, so you can use less and quieter fans.

Re:It's worth every penny

[FelixGordon]

Oh no, you don't understand - it's got "Rounded plug levers" which "help prevent breakage."

....

Re:It's worth every penny

[fbjon]

It's also pretty difficult to pull any sort of BS in the professional sector, because their clients are professionals who are trained to know better. Don't be too sure...

Re:It's worth every penny

[kramulous]

Jeeves? Escort this young man to the door. When you are done, warm my platinum throne will you.

Re:It's worth every penny

[driftingwalrus]

He should be raped by the ghost of Nikola Tesla for the blasphemy of using his name for this garbage.

Re:It's worth every penny

[MrHanky]

Why? Denon do make some good products (CD players, amps, phono cartridges, etc.), even if their cables are a bit on the fraudulent side. Audiophiles will waste their money on that kind of crap anyway, just to be on the safe side, so why not take it? They have a business to run, and pure cable companies have far wider margins than they, as a mostly electronics manufacturer. If they can cut into the massively undeserved profits of the Monsters, the Cardases, the Pears and the NBSes (most examples taken from a Google search of 'audio cables') of the world, then more power to them.

Of course, one might hope for a world where people weren't that stupid, but that will never happen, or where selling that kind of snake oil would be restricted by law (as it's fraud and false advertising), but that would interfere with the sacred free market.

Re:It's worth every penny

[donaldm]

Have you looked at Monster Cable . Lots of people buy them unnecessarily. When I purchased a HDTV the sales person tried to hard sell me on a 1.5m HDMI Monster Cable for AU$300. Since I am an electrical engineer and know what signals are being carried I declined (boy was the sales rep pushy - so I told him off) and went and purchased a 2.0M HDM cable for AU19.00 and this one works just as well.

Unfortunately most people don't have any technical knowledge and are entirely at the hands of a sales rep who is only concerned with meeting their sales quota. Personally I would just laugh at the very thought of buying a 1.5M Ethernet cable for $499 when I know I can just as easily buy a 10M cable for less than $10.00. Actually you could just as easily buy a decent wireless router and matching network card for less then $100 and that would save hundreds of dollars over getting a cable guy to install the cable.

Re:It's worth every penny

[thedeadswiss]

high fidelity duct tape

If I had any mod points, that would get you one.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Undead NDR]

Why? Denon do make some good products

Maybe, but I really wouldn't want my money to go to scammers.

Re:It's worth every penny

[bryanp]

Ah. A somewhat more polite version of my standard line for overpriced crap like that. Mine is "For that kind of money there should be a button on the side labled 'blowjob.' And it had better work."

Re:It's worth every penny

[saider]

It will run your USB at Full Speed.

Re:It's worth every penny

[You ain't seen me!]

I was thinking of getting 2, and then when I connect them together I could get 960Mbit/s. It doesn't work with cheap cables, but I'm so gullible that I'm sure his expensive cables will work just fine.

Re:It's worth every penny

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Eyes, bowels... same thing, right?

Re:It's worth every penny

[b1t r0t]

Seriously, though, I think that's the most disappointing thing about this cable. It's Ethernet, so it still uses those crappy RJ-45 connectors. That's like selling an oxygen-free mono-isotopic silver cable, slapping a Radio Shock phono plug on the end, then adding lots of shiny plastic bits over the plug to make it look better. Yeah, like they can do anything to prevent that little plastic clip from breaking off, and we all know it.

Actually, I suppose as long as you stop using a plastic hinge, it could be done. Use a metal lever, preferably with an actual coil spring under it, and bend it back into the connector at the far end to keep it from snagging. But then they wouldn't be ten for a dollar and probably wouldn't work with most crimpers. It just couldn't compete with plastic plugs except in overpriced crap like this.

What they really needed to do was come up with a new ethernet connector, preferably with military style screw caps, then they could sell THREE kinds of overpriced cables (combinations of RJ-45 and the new DenoNet connector), as well as overpriced hubs/switches (and you think Cisco is expensive?), and also be the first, err, only ones on the block with that new connector on the back of their audiophool equipment. I'd rather see a more sensible plug for ethernet that's better than RJ-45, but I know better than to expect the audiophool market to invent it.

Re:It's worth every penny

[csoto]

In high school, I suffered from a "twisted pair" and nearly had to go to the emergency room! But, fortunately after a cold shower, everything just sort of worked itself out.

Re:It's worth every penny

[db32]

Well duh. If it was made of 6 foot tall blond virgins' pubic hair it wouldn't actually conduct, it would be worthless as an ethernet cable, and no slashdotter would have any idea what to actually do with it.

Re:It's worth every penny

[PitaBred]

There is a type of amplifier that uses a separate unloaded wire for its feedback and makes sure that the voltage across the speaker terminals is undistorted even when using a long run of cheap cable. It costs pennies to make this modification to an amplifier but the company that invented this is not very successful selling them. Apparently people WANT to pay a lot of money for their cables. It makes them feel good. Got any info on this nameless company? I feel that they fail more at advertising than at technology, because I'd be quite interested in buying it if I knew about it.

Re:It's worth every penny

[moosesocks]

Wait a second.... that article is claiming that the quality of the connector will affect the amount of time it takes the signal to travel to its destination?

That's a pretty serious accusation, and seems to be bending the laws of physics quite a bit.

For consumer-grade equipment, a ±5% source of something that might degrade the quality of the image isn't really all that alarming, and is perfectly within the "acceptable" range, even for high-end installations.

If you're doing production work, you're not going to be using HDMI anyway. There are connectors designed to properly cope with RF signals in the GHz range that should preserve the full signal.

Re:It's worth every penny

[bovinewasteproduct]

What's even worse about selling oxygen-free mono-isotopic silver cables is that fact that silver oxide is a better conductor than pure silver...

BWP

Re:It's worth every penny

[Blakey Rat]

I dunno, considering some of the crap Tesla was peddling, I bet he'd be pretty proud of the whole thing.

Remember, Telsa firmly believed that a single power station could power every electric device on the entire planet wirelessly, and that the only reason his station didn't work is that it wasn't huge enough. I think he electrocuted a few cows trying this one out.

Re:It's worth every penny

[phillipsjk256]

... by empoying high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding and woven jacketing ...

I read that as STP cabling.

Re:It's worth every penny

[mark_osmd]

AgO2 is much worse a conductor than Ag resistivities: Silver: 1.6 X 10^-8 ohms-m Silver Oxide: 1 x 10^+9 ohms-m

Re:It's worth every penny

[MightyYar]

Holy crap, that second link of yours is too much! That rep is like a teenaged forum troll, then the owner comes in and actually defends him! Then later you find out that the rep was actually a person that prior to being a rep actually WAS the resident forum troll and had been banned.

And then... the most stunning thing (and telling thing) IMHO - someone points to a double-blind study and it is revealed that even DISCUSSING double-blind studies is against forum rules!!!

Gotta love a group of people who are SO conceited that they believe themselves immune to placebo effect!

Re:It's worth every penny

[Ifni]

There is a lot of truth to that article, but it's still bogus in relation to what we are discussing here (CAT5e cables). For one, most of the article discusses bad clock sources. A cable, no matter how good, can't fix that. The small part where cables are discussed basically describes faulty cables as a source of issue. Not cheap cables. Faulty ones. Cables with corrosion or oxidization or faulty soldering. I'm assuming cables with highly impure copper could also cause problems. Or poor insulation/shielding/twistiness. But for the argument here, we are discussing cables that meet recommended specs - CAT5e in this case, whatever HDMI quality considerations cables must achieve in the case of the referenced article. Once that minimum level is achieved by a wire, all wires are the same.

I also like this part of the article:

About the images used in this piece: Scope faces are for illustration purposes and may not be from a HD video stream.

Having said that, the article was largely informative, and in non digital situations, silver is likely a better way to go, but that goes somewhat outside of my area of expertise as a computer guy. At audio speeds (a few MB per second at best), jitter caused by cable has no discernible impact. At gigabit speeds over long distances it does, which is why all network cabling has minimum specs and recommended max distances. But we're talking 96 kilobits per channel over 6 channels over a meter and a half. Any non-defective cable made to spec will work just as well as any other.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Ifni]

Bah. Not 96 kilobits. At 16 bits per sample and 96k samples per second (again, assuming the highest fidelity I'm aware of for consumer grade equipment), we're talking T1 speeds per channel, or about standard Ethernet speeds (10 megabit) for 6 audio channels. But other than that, the statement stands.

Re:It's worth every penny

[driftingwalrus]

It did actually work, just not well enough. He ended up pioneering radio, and was decades ahead of Marconi. You conveniently also ignore his development of the AC motor, the AC distribution system we use today, and his design of the hydro station at Niagra Falls.

There are a lot of cranks that co-opt his name, try not to confuse them with him.

Re:It's worth every penny

[kesuki]

i tried google shopping to find a paladin tools ethernet checking tool, and they were all over $40!

my multimeter cost $12, sure it takes a few minutes to check each wire for cross-talk and signal, (64 wire checks) but they're all in the same multimeter setting.

Re:It's worth every penny

[dotgain]

Denon do make some good products

I used to think that too, until one day I looked back and realised of the three Denon brand CD players (studio version, ugly with rack-mount brackets), ALL had crapped out and required service at some stage. Sure, that's as good as a CD player gets these days, but this was the 90's, when CD players were expected to last long enough to justify tighetening the rack bolts.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Mawbid]

That's how you wind up with mixing engineers chopping up their perfectly fine $500 Sennheiser cans, to solder a $1500 headphone cable right onto the speaker leads.

Are we talking about headphones like my HD600's? With separate left/right plugs and two little prongs on each connector?

The thing is, these headphones are not "perfectly fine". They have a stupid design flaw that's been bothering me more and more. The cable connection is finicky. You may put the headphones on and get no sound on one side. Fiddle with the connector on that side and after a while, and a lot of crackling, maybe you get a solid connection. Replacing the cable seems to fix it for a while, but the problem always comes back.

These things are wonderful when the cable connection is good, so fixing that permanently by soldering sounds pretty good to me.

Re:It's worth every penny

[no1home]

There's no point in paying hundreds of dollars per meter for a fetish item like monster cable but a thick copper cable does work better than lamp wire.

On the surface, you're exactly correct. However, much of the so-called speaker cable I see these days is crappy little stuff whereas most lamp cord actually is pretty thick, certainly thick enough for a proper signal in the average home audio system. But, again, you're basically right and the stuff I use is a little thicker than lamp cord.

A signifcant percentage of the total interconnect resistance is in the contacts, not the cable. Oxidation of the terminals results in a poor connection and is more sensitive to vibration. Gold is very resistant to corrosion and a thin coating uses so little gold that the effect on the price should be negligible.

Again, you're correct, but I want to clarify something. When you connect gold-plated connectors to the standard connectors on most equipment (not gold), you are creating a bi-metal joint. These connections do corrode more quickly than gold to gold or regular to regular and lead to a degradation of the quality of the system over time.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Tony Hoyle]

t wouldn't actually conduct, it would be worthless as an ethernet cable, and no slashdotter would have any idea what to actually do with it. .. not unlike 6 foot tall blond virgins in fact.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Phroggy]

I wouldn't confuse Denon's consumer arm with its professional-range of products. So is the $500 Ethernet cable "consumer" or "professional"?

Either way, I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a "fairly decent product". That's not the issue here.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Fnordulicious]

It's "prosumer". Consumers would never pay that kind of money, they'd save it for fixing their car or something. Professionals would just make their own cable from the 500 yard spool used as a footrest under their desk.

Re:It's worth every penny

[db32]

That isn't true at all! A 6 foot tall blonde virgin would indeed conduct (mostly). Unless you were refering to a slashdotter not knowing what to do with the 6 foot tall blonde virgin. However, there are some assumptions there. I am sure that any slashdotter would know exactly what to do with a 6 foot tall blonde virgin as they are likely some variant of virgin as well. However, I doubt either party at that point would be thinking about something obvious like sex as being a 6ft tall virgin would most likely indicate some age. In all likelyhood a slashdotter would probably play board games, role playing games, computer games, or just speek geek to another aged virgin. In fact, that same 6 ft tall virgin is likely to be another slashdotter.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Firehed]

Requires a $500 cable to mask their incompetence? You can buy a thousand feet of Cat6, a crimper, and plenty of RJ45 heads for, what, under $200? I expect most slashdotters have such materials sitting around quite available, and could make an effective cable for about five bucks worth of material, assuming that their cables use standard twists even if the plugs have the wires fitted in a different order. Of course I find it unlikely that the twisting would have any discernible effect on whatever snake oil they're peddling, but that's a different matter.

Re:It's worth every penny

[kickassweb]

It can also be employed to make the grandaddy of all tinfoil hats, complete with capacitor defibrillators, seti antenna, and that fashionable architectural structure so hot these days . . .

Re:It's worth every penny

[Jarik_Tentsu]

Too true. I think once you set up an ethernet cable, never pull it out lest you want to lose your plastic thingy.

I have around 5 ethernet cables in front of me that are sticky taped to their various NICs, wall sockets and switches. =/

~Jarik

Re:It's worth every penny

[liquidf]

time travelers like this guy?

Re:It's worth every penny

[ScottBob]

Somebody actually did a double blind study of Monster Cable versus coat hanger wire.

Re:It's worth every penny

[GrahamCox]

I remember in vivid detail that afternoon when I first connected two interconnects comprised of two TESLA Tricon geometries in parallel. [...] This was major improvement in an area that I did not think could be improved upon.

Then I also remembered, I'd spent the night in an acid den and was totally off my head. It was the green-spotted pink snakes emanating from the left speaker that finally tipped me off that it wasn't the cables after all.

Re:It's worth every penny

[fractoid]

I invited a professional engineer and a stereophile guy to listen to the same album on two different CDRs... one cut at 1X one at 2X. The engineer preferred the 1X, and thought the CDRs had different mixes on them. The stereophile guy simply felt the sound on the 1X was sweeter and wider. And the award for nonscience goes to... this guy!

JV rocks the boat even more: I've experienced transferring a sound file from one hard drive system to another and the sound changed. *blinks in disbelief* This guy probably thinks that red smarties taste better than blue ones.

Two other engineers (in session with me) heard the sound change when we raised the client's computer off the floor with soft isolation pads. The only thing that changed was what the computer was sitting on. We found that setting the computer on a hardwood floor made the sound more immediate and crisp, compared with setting it on soft isolators. On the floor, the snare sounded punchier, the kick more immediate, and the overall sound was tighter. A solid platform is even better when vibration isolators are used - and you'll be amazed at the difference a great power cable makes too. I'm beginning to think that this guy can 'hear the differences' in everything, always, regardless of what equipment is used. I'd like to see him reliably tell the difference in a proper double-blind test though.

Re:It's worth every penny

[RockDoctor]

that new connector on the back of their audiophool equipment.

"audiophool" : nice neologism. Well, the word is new to me, at least. The species I've known for ages.

A couple of years ago one of my colleagues was worrying over a "audiophool" magazine at lunch time, and asked my advice : he was seeing all these adverts for £2000 mains leads and a variety of more sanely priced 50Hz mains filters etc, "because I can hear the hum of the mains". He then got highly offended when I suggested that, for his budget of £500 to £1000, he build a mains-powered motor-belt-flywheel-belt-dynamo rig, with some nice chunky chokes, rechargeable batteries and capacitors, then feed the DC from that directly into the appropriate circuits of his amplifiers. With a moderate amount of work, he could even make it look neat, and be "hand-cart portable".
My audiophool colleague got quite angry, because he though I was taking the piss out of him. Which I was. But he had started it by considering spending £2000 on a mains cable.

I may have discussed the possible benefits of using steam as the energy-transfer medium instead of belts and flywheels. Or maybe compressed air. It's all a question of making sure that the system damps heavily at 50Hz and has a very low-pass filter built into it. But the audiophool seemed to think that 1% of 0.001Hz harmonic in a 20-minute long record would be an unacceptable level of distortion.

Re:It's worth every penny

[LizardKing]

No, I'm saving up for a gold-plated toilet.

Queen Elizabeth II takes a supply of toilet seats covered in hand stitched kid leather on every royal tour. This information became public knowledge when the itemised accounts of a tour to Australia were released to the press. Not quite as good as a gold plated toilet, but probably quite a bit comfier.

Re:It's worth every penny

[Hognoxious]

I used to work in a place where every ethernet cable had lost the clip from both ends. I'm sure the amount of time we lost fiddling with tape, toothpicks, bits of card, rubber bands etc (and being geeks, discussing and/or arguing about which method was best) cost them ten times the price of a bulk pack of cables.

Re:It's worth every penny

[pete_norm]

A 6 foot blonde virgin could probably twist YOUR pair... but i'm not sure you would like it.

Re:It's worth every penny

[fm6]

Except that those gold connectors aren't gold-plated — that would obviously be too expensive, except for if-you-have-to-ask vendors like Denon. They use some process that allows them to put a single-molecule layer of gold on something. Dunno why they don't use the same process to provide a silver layer. Maybe it's not feasible. Or maybe you can't charge extra for a connector that looks like a plain metal connector.

Re:It's worth every penny

[fm6]

Succumbing to fashion memes is a sure sign that your tinfoil hat isn't working!

Re:It's worth every penny

[networkBoy]

doesn't break the laws of physics, but by changing the slope of the synchronizing clock either by amplitude or rise/fall times (impedance mismatch, crosstalk, etc.) will change the relative timing of the signals, thus jitter over the time domain.
-nB

Re:It's worth every penny

[DavidHumus]

This one goes to eleven.

Re:It's worth every penny

[billcopc]

Yep it's true, those tiny little plugs are a horrible design. If you're crafty, you can replace the weird jacks with good 1/8th monos, maybe add a small o-ring around the cables, to tweak the "Y" height.

My gripe isn't so much with the soldering job, but the replacement cable some of them use. It's bad enough that thousands of people shell $200 for the Cardas cable, promising better sound... it's just plain retarded when a monumentally stoned mixing engineer blows $1000+ on boutique interconnects, chops off one end and solders those into the headphones.

Or maybe I've listened to too much music and damaged my ears, so I can't hear the "difference". Yeah, right!

Re:It's worth every penny

[geekoid]

Spoken like someone who hasn't had a virgin. Believe me, experience is better...to a point.

Re:It's worth every penny

[geekoid]

"It's also pretty difficult to pull any sort of BS in the professional sector, because their clients are professionals who are trained to know better."

No, that's not true at all. Professionals get fooled in every industry, mostly because they let their belief impact their rationale.
Look at any industry and it is ull of scammers, shucksters, liars, snakeoil salesmen, or some other 'supernatural' solution. Usually being kept down by 'the man'.

Re:It's worth every penny

[ultranova]

JV rocks the boat even more: I've experienced transferring a sound file from one hard drive system to another and the sound changed.

*blinks in disbelief* This guy probably thinks that red smarties taste better than blue ones.

And maybe they do, having a different chemical composition. Arguing with someone's observations is pointless, and there are actually many mechanisms in which could introduce changes (such as the new drive simply being faulty).

And please understand that, even if the music itself plays exactly the same, the hard drive does also give noise to its environment, and that might affect how the music is perceived. I had one old one which made a sound like a circular saw used to cut steel... I'm still amazed I never saw sparks flying ;).

I'm beginning to think that this guy can 'hear the differences' in everything, always, regardless of what equipment is used. I'd like to see him reliably tell the difference in a proper double-blind test though.

In this last case, he probably could. The computer has fans, hard drives, and other moving parts. They make sound, which can easily resonate with anything in direct contact with the computer. Having it sit on softpads is going to create a noticeable difference in ambient sound compared to having it sit on a hardwood floor, which of course affects how you perceive any other sound.

Or, to put it simpler: reducing the noise from the computer makes music sound better :).

Cthulhu

[Frosty Piss]

Cable porn. Is that a sub category of tentacle porn? A giant Cthulhu-like monster made of Cat-5?

Re:Cthulhu

[cthulu_mt]

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Cthulhu

[Quiet_Desperation]

Hey, this is quality monsterage. Cat-6 all the way.

Re:Cthulhu

[spazdor]

OK, I'm invoking Rule 34. Provide links.

Re:Cthulhu

[Nullav]

Would those be Monster cables, by any chance?

Re:Cthulhu

[Oktober Sunset]

A giant Cthulhu-like monster made of Cat-5? I think you just described what's behind my desk.

Re:Cthulhu

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

"Girls with Network Equipment" (including cables) close enough?
http://web.archive.org/web/20060112033557/http://hwpr0n.se/

Re:Cthulhu

[vertigoCiel]

You don't invoke Rule 34, the same way that you don't invoke the laws of phycics. It just is

Re:Cthulhu

[horcy]

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This little thred brought tears to my keyboard!!! thx guys, you know what humor is all about!!!

Re:Cthulhu

[julesh]

Dude. You've slashdotted the wayback machine!

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...This got greenlit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies tax morons for their lack of knowledge, the sky is blue, and water is wet, news at 11.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[erudified]

Man, maybe I'm a terrible person, but I absolutely love these kinda scams.

Every time I see something like this, I really wish I'd thought of it.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[maxume]

You could always start selling cables that cost $599.

How could they *not* be better?

Re:...This got greenlit?

[OnlyHalfEvil]

Forget that. I'm going to undercut the SOB and sell my cables for $498.99

Re:...This got greenlit?

[amRadioHed]

Come on, you've got to have some legitimate reason for the extra price. If I was going to sell $599 cables, I would be sure to treat them with my special quantum acoustic enhancer first. This patented device "entangles" the audiotons ensuring "instant" transmission with "no" signal loss.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[Captain Spam]

Er... by "this" in your subject, do you mean the Slashdot post? Because frankly, this is downright hilarious, and I needed a good laugh.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[maxume]

I store them in gold lined boxes to prevent space radiation from degrading them.

Also, they are manufactured in harmony with the orbit of the moon, so the lunar cycle does not impact the quality of audio fed over them.

Finally, the meteoric metal mixed into the alloy used for the cables gives them the power of the universe, preventing them from aging.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[amRadioHed]

Damnit. I forgot about the moon. Back to the drawing board...

Re:...This got greenlit?

[theparanoidcynic]

Or you could, y'know, just add a $0.03 green LED to the "in" side and a red one to the "out." "For the security of knowing it's hooked up right."

Re:...This got greenlit?

[neomunk]

Nope, undercutting doesn't work on the target demographic for these kinds of 'specialty purchases'. You must always charge MORE, as cost is directly indicative of perceived quality. There is simply no other worldly explanation for 500 dollar ethernet cables, short of very large ones.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[therufus]

Ohh, snap!

Re:...This got greenlit?

[Technician]

I'm glad you could see this as a scam. Now buy some cables that make a real impact on your sound, analog speaker cables.

http://ralaudio.com/kimber-4ag-speaker-cable-p-2315.html

They are 14 AWG silver. Low resistance is better. Oh teflon insulation for durability. Bring your checkbook.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[TastelessGarbage]

Why not do this:

1) Buy comparable cables from Chinese mfr for ~$3 each.

2) Tart them up with bright/shiny colors, etc.

3) Have third-party lab compare your cable to the Denon.

4) Advertise your $20 cable as just as good/better than the $500 cable.

5) Prrrrrrrrrofit!!

Re:...This got greenlit?

[Tubal-Cain]

$249 per issue. Issues released weekly on a 3"x5" card. You will be automatically billed, but you must arrange for your own posting. Issues not picked up within 30 minutes of printing will be discarded and you will need to ask for a replacement issue for merely $169.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[cobaltnova]

Products exhibiting this peculiar economic phenomenon are known as Giffen Goods.

Gold plated toilets, designer clothing, and diamond rings are other examples (the more expensive, the more desireable they are).

Re:...This got greenlit?

[AmberBlackCat]

It makes me wonder how much of their audio equipment is actually crap they're making out to be something special. Maybe Sony has competition.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[mrchaotica]

Nah, I think what we're talking about here are Veblen goods. If you had read the Wikipedia article you linked to more carefully, you'd see that the example they talk about for Giffen goods is actually on the cheap end of the price scale:

The classic example given by Marshall is of inferior quality staple foods, whose demand is driven by poverty that makes their purchasers unable to afford superior foodstuffs. As the price of the cheap staple rises, they can no longer afford to supplement their diet with better foods, and must consume more of the staple food.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[cobaltnova]

Whoops! Thanks for catching that: I was recalling this from my econ class... quite a while ago.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[AAWood]

I can't find it now, but I saw an excellent example on Amazon once; a +£200 ($400) HDMI cable.

The ludicrously high price was bad enough, justified by the usual techno-babble that's always used with these kind of things. But the best was where it mentioned it could carry a 1080i signal to up to 7.5 metres.

It was a 15 metre cable. I can only presume your signal would get halfway, and then just sorta stay there.

I did just stumble across an even more moronic example here; a HDMI-HDMI cable, prices start at £179.95 for a 1m cable, up to £720 (well over $1,000) for 20m. Seriously, I don't care how good the cable is; for the extra £500, just move the AV source closer to the output.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[Fred_A]

Man, maybe I'm a terrible person, but I absolutely love these kinda scams.

Every time I see something like this, I really wish I'd thought of it.

Shouldn't there be a market for $1000 wooden cables ? Because wood is good at absorbing vibrations, and it's, um, natural, and recyclable, and it's obvious that those people can't hear the difference between one cable and the other anyway.

Maybe gold plated wood...

Re:...This got greenlit?

[MrHanky]

You could always start selling cables that cost $599.

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

How much is it?

He's selling it at $599 per year, but I'm selling the 99.999999999% silver version for only twice the price.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[maglor_83]

Seven. Minute. Abs.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[jimicus]

Why not do this:

1) Buy comparable cables from Chinese mfr for ~$3 each.

2) Tart them up with bright/shiny colors, etc.

3) Have third-party lab compare your cable to the Denon.

4) Advertise your $20 cable as just as good/better than the $500 cable.

5) Prrrrrrrrrofit!!

This might work if audiophiles were rational people. But if they were rational people, nobody in their right mind would be trying to sell then the $500 cable in the first place.

Re:...This got greenlit?

[lcstyle]

Hilarious, what you guys dont realize is who these cables are marketed towards, theres a bunch of rich yuppie producers that have so much disposable income that they will snap these up. Also, how many DUMB DUMB DUMB recording artists build studios in their homes? remember these are pot smoking artsy fartsy universe energy harnessing artists, and how dare you use a two dollar and ninety nine cent cable in their private home recording studio.

What happens when everything is wireless?

[linzeal]

Will they try selling us higher quality air to shoot the EM signals through?

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[JDHannan]

something has to connect to the wireless transmitter and receiver! And I'm ready to sell that something for $500!

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[mikael]

Will they try selling us higher quality air to shoot the EM signals through? We Introduce our latest product, the Acme professional EF signal booster. Scientific studies have proven that high humidity levels reduce signal quality of EM signals. After years of painstaking research, our scientists have designed and patented a foolproof system for maximising the quality of EM signals within a internal area. Using our patented process of filtering the air molecules within a building, our system removes all impurities and excess humidity that would reduce the quality of EM signals in your building. Our system also reshapes the air molecules as well as adding specially designed EM friendly molecules which guarantee that your electronic equipment will always receive and transmit the highest quality EM signals wherever you are.

Our system is available for immediate purchase. Just visit our website and select the number of filtering units that you require (ideally one unit should cover every 20 square metres, or one unit per corner of a room), and your order will be despatched within 24 hours.

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[DarkOx]

Not EM, but I let me take a crack at the audio/air biz.

Are you looking to recreat the concert experience at home? Have you already asembled the stero system proffessionals dream of but can't understand why it still just won't sound like its live? The problem is the air in your home. Sound waves propogate through air from the speaker to your air differently depending on the exact chemical make up of the air. If you really want your live recordings to have that same special POP you heard at the concert you need to recreate the air. For only $500 our company can have a air delivered to your home form all major us cities representive of almost any time of day! You can finally recreate that perfect sonic experience you enjoyed at the club last year. Once our custom built to preserve, air canister arrives all you need to do is open the easily turn valve and you can immediatly start enjoying more prefect reporductions of live concerts! Its that easy!

Still need that little extra? Well we also have special modifier canisters availible, that can be added to your order for only a small additional cost. These include botique air qualites such as smoke, and stale beer, which can also subtly change the way sound waves porogate and may be requried for the ideal experince. Stop trying to play your recorded sound into a medium it was never ment to be played in, start enjoying your recordings in the air they were ment for today!

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[Nocturnal Deviant]

Don't mind the smell of booze, vomit and every so often a hint of urine, it enhances the experience!

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[iminplaya]

No. They will sell you a waveguide to connect with all the air pumped out. Cuz we all know that EM travels faster in a vacuum. Imagine the reduction in latency!

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[7 digits]

Well, I am somewhat disappointed: you could at least have tried to sell hot air...

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[thewiz]

Still need that little extra? Well we also have special modifier canisters availible, that can be added to your order for only a small additional cost. These include botique air qualites such as smoke, and stale beer,... Does the "stale beer" odor come with a spray can of "stale piss" for your bathroom or is that extra?

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[ckaminski]

Ionic, you have to use the word Ionic to make it sell... Anything gold or ionic sells.

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[Idbar]

What about a wave cleaner, we all know that waves get dirty from crossing through walls, and it's even worse if they have to go through carpets, kitchens and bathrooms. BTW, make it $449 just to still Denon's market, and hope not to be sued by them for business malpractices

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[TheGratefulNet]

my april-fools posting from a few years ago:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.marketplace/msg/c1d47f6cc984588d?hl=en&dmode=source&output=gplain


Newly redesigned! Highest quality shielded fiber-optic cables. Will
DEFINITELY make a difference in the way your CD's sound. Trust me.

Why run just one media type when you can run two at the same time! Special
connectors at each end allow you to connect to BOTH the fiber AND the coax
jacks, concurrently. The end result yields a level of fault-tolerance that
has never before been available to the end consumer.

Note: these cables are significantly more transparent than ST, I2S, Toslink or
coax, alone.

This week, they're on special for $299.95 (for a 3 metre length). Other
custom lengths are available on request.



if you can believe it, a few people actually took that stuff seriously! they didn't even notice the 1-apr posting date.

actually, my new idea is to use a non-ferrite bead (NFB) like device (as a 'bad waves' blocker) and combine that with the differential fiber optic cable. I'm still hoping to close first-round funding any day now. denon, are you listening?

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[endsley]

So this is where all the unsold Sharper Image Ionic Breezes went.

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[sribe]

No, you fools, it's the dope-smoke in the air that makes it sound better.

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[rrohbeck]

Is that you Kohagen?

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[flyingfsck]

Gold plated, low skin effect antennas...

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[Omestes]

Nano is the marketing hype word of the day, either that or "Popular with the Japanese".

I guess, then it uses an ionic nano-material, developed from the traditional Japanese space-program in a synergistic eco-friendly (dolphin safe) Green process in the latest space age fashion, in which 4 out of five dentists (or the actors who play them on television) recommend. Now in 2.0 HD !

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[driftingwalrus]

Quantum is important, too. Nano quantum ion particles from japan!

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[frippz]

Will they try selling us higher quality air to shoot the EM signals through? PA beat you to it. Though it seems to be aimed at gamers. :D

Re:What happens when everything is wireless?

[Bacon Bits]

I'm certain you could rebrand one of those Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze" things and say it improves sound quality and make a killing on them. Just tell people to run the device for 30 to 60 minutes before playing sound. You could do it with any number of environmental controls: space heater, air conditioner, humidifier, etc.

Audiophools

[ylikone]

Products like this are proof that audiophiles are not very intelligent and easily swayed to buying things they do not need.

Re:Audiophools

[hack slash]

You have just described every collector of Star Wars action figures.

Re:Audiophools

[slashflood]

easily swayed to buying things they do not need

... or understand.

Re:Audiophools

[MP3Chuck]

The sad thing is that this whole discussion is just going to spiral into a flamewar about how people with fancy stereos are idiots and how Anonymous Coward #1 can't tell the difference between a CD and a 256kbps MP3, while the people with fancy stereos defend themselves saying they just want a good setup and aren't out buying $500 CAT5 cables.

And it's unfortunate that people who are really into the sound system stuff and who like having well-tuned systems/rooms/whatever get lumped into the schmucks who would drop $500 cables and crap like cable elevators.

Re:Audiophools

[Ethanol-fueled]

From TFA:

"...Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer." Did the asshole who wrote that fluff his resume as much as he fluffed the ad? Shit, no wonder why the idiot got the job! :)

Re:Audiophools

[Anonymous Coward]

i agree to a certain extent, but there's a point at which it stops being a con and starts being just a bad joke

i'm sorry, but anyone who thinks this cable is worth five hundred bux doesn't deserve to keep their money

Re:Audiophools

[HungSoLow]

There are two types of Audiophiles:
(1) Non-technical people who like knowing they have thousands of dollars in equipment, blissfully ignorant of the technical details, but trusting in the outlandish claims of the various companies.
(2) Technical people who know about skin depth, SNR, etc. and make informed purchases and more often than not (as in my case) build their own high end audio equipment.

Re:Audiophools

[Maxo-Texas]

I'm having a hard time resisting the 4 packs of 2" high figures. I just see miniature battles. but at $8 a pack, it's kinda hefty.

Re:Audiophools

[couchslug]

"Products like this are proof that audiophiles are not very intelligent and easily swayed to buying things they do not need."

A fool and his money deserve to be parted. :)

Re:Audiophools

[Lumpy]

The more money you spend on your Stereo or home theater. the dumber you are.

Yes, several of my clients are INCREDIBLY stupid. they have $5000.00 DVD players, $12,000.00 Surround sound deciders, and over $100,000 in speakers.

They are flat out morons. but I'll take their money every time they offer it. If I did not take it, someone else would.

Re:Audiophools

[mevets]

You could almost buy two copies of Vista for that money.

Re:Audiophools

[RockModeNick]

Personally, I like good audio equipment, but hate spending much money on stuff that won't make any difference in my cluttered space, or any difference at all. I found the bang for your buck solution was mid-late 70's solid states, either just the amp units that have no preamp, or receivers with jumpers between the main in and preamp outputs, the receivers being my favorite because the lower quality of their preamp/tuner sections keeps their cost low. You combine these with any decent sound card with a good signal to noise ratio. I just pop out the preamp unit/main in jumpers, run the preamp input into the aux input on my sound card(just in case I want to tune in some AM or FM radio, I keep both it and all the other inputs on the card muted 99% of the time, so, you know, it actually HAS the low noise it's supposed to) and run the main output of my sound card to the main in on the receiver. You can generally turn the volume on the computer to 100% without ANY audible noise in the speakers, even with your ears up to the cones. I've found this type of setup gets louder with less distortion than most modern setups costing over 10 times as much.

Re:Audiophools

[Zeinfeld]

You have just described every collector of Star Wars action figures.

I am so pissed that I passed up the chance to buy a whole rack of the first gen figures back when they were on closeout after Episode VI. I thought they were overpriced junk then, never imagined anyone would be paying $2,000 for a NIB R2D2.

Re:Audiophools

[Nazlfrag]

Indeed. Every intelligent person knows the Lego playsets are way more fun.

Re:Audiophools

[miro f]

but then what Audiophile is running cables on or in a bare concrete floor. none, obviously. They are using cable elevators, of course ;)

Re:Audiophools

[idiotnot]

I was catching a news feed over a 64kbps ISDN line one day, and there was a station client (mortgage broker) who was hovering around watching what I was doing....

After the reporter had finished his report, and I was trimming it up for air, the client started talking about the wonderful quality of the audio...almost sounded like he was in the same room...great stereo separation....

"It's mono."
"It's mono? No, it can't be. I hear different nuances in my ears."
"It's mono. Take a look at the box, and the pot it's feeding. One channel."
"Oh."

Self-proclaimed audiophiles are also often beer snobs, showing that there's big overlap among two of the most obnoxious groups in the world. Drink a Miller Lite. It won't kill you, really. And that bitter shit that you have to sip, because it tastes so awful that you can't drink more than a sip....really, it's not good beer, even if your book/magazine/friends say so.

Re:Audiophools

[kesuki]

i have a NiB episode 1 pod racer from taco bell what's that worth?

Re:Audiophools

[MrKaos]

I use high end cables in my audio studio, I braid entire looms as having a neat set of cables carefully organised at right angles to power minimises induced noise. Unless these cables are going to minimise packet re-transmissions to -1 and effectively double my cpu capacity by using them about the only thing I could see them being useful for is keeping noise OUT of audio and video equipment.

I don't have ethernet cable anywhere near my audio cables for precisely this reason - because the potential for introducing digital signal noise into my analogue audio cables.

Re:Audiophools

[NotmyNick]

You have just described every collector of Star Wars action figures.

They're not action figures, they're dolls! Err, uh, wait...

Re:Audiophools

[Toby_Tyke]

I know you said that largely in jest, but in fairness to the figure collectors they don't claim that their figures are actually endowed with the power of the force. That might be the only explanation for some of the properties ascribed to these cables.

Re:Audiophools

[agendi]

I was with you until you suggested drinking a Miller Lite... guess it's back to being a beer snob then.

Re:Audiophools

[hackstraw]

I run my $1800 speakers (stereo pair, not 50.1 surround sound) though a Realistic 1978 integrated amp I got for $35 dollars.

Sounds great.

Re:Audiophools

[awfar]

Haha; I as well have a vintage '78 Realistic SA2001 Amplifier that has a separate amp/preamp 60w/channel, an attractive champagne color and lighted analog power meters; way cool retro. For awhile that thing drove a pair of Kustom towers with a 15, a 12, and a horn so loud and low I suspect it would blow a lighter out in front of the tuned port. It now is happily driving a pair of Infinity monitors. I did find a 70s Fisher 800tx (maybe 100w/ch) literally on the side of the road; cleaned up almost new and sounds great, weighs a ton and can sink some serious power, but I still like my 2001.

Re:Audiophools

[Ford Prefect]

I enjoy being a beer snob without spending much money.

In my cupboard I have bottle of Rochefort 10 - claimed by overly-enthusiastic Americans as being one of the best beers in the world. Except it only cost me a Euro down at my local supermarket. One of the advantages of living in Belgium. :-)

(And it's more of a beer to drink slowly on a cold winter's night, sat in an armchair in front of an open fire - if you want something colder and more refreshing, there are loads of other beers to choose from. Excluding Miller Lite, obviously!)

Re:Audiophools

[NextGaurd]

There are two types of Audiophiles: (1) Non-technical people who like knowing they have thousands of dollars in equipment, blissfully ignorant of the technical details, but trusting in the outlandish claims of the various companies. (2) Technical people who know about skin depth, SNR, etc. and make informed purchases and more often than not (as in my case) build their own high end audio equipment. There is a third kind of audiophile. They may not be particularly technical but they largely base decisions on what actually sounds good to them... Although it is a rare person who does not consider the opinions of others, this type of audiophile learns who has similar taste and trusts those opinions more.

Re:Audiophools

[Sj0]

That shit isn't beer. Beer is made with barley, hopps, malt, sometimes wheat, yeast, and water.

American 'beer flavoured coolers' are made with distilled rice and corn alcohols added to artificial flavours.

That said, it is a matter of taste. There's no right or wrong answer. Some people like beer flavoured coolers, but myself, I really enjoy a good beer. You know, the way they've made beer for 6,000 years. I've got nothing against the coolers, but when you're adding rice and corn alcohol to flavouring, that's not how you make beer.

Re:Audiophools

[CurlyG]

There are two types of Audiophiles:

(1) Non-technical people who like knowing they have thousands of dollars in equipment, blissfully ignorant of the technical details, but trusting in the outlandish claims of the various companies.

(2) Technical people who know about skin depth, SNR, etc. and make informed purchases and more often than not (as in my case) build their own high end audio equipment. You guys really need to come up with another name for your type of audio enthusiast. The term audiophile has been irrevocably associated with the utterly clueless $500-power-cable-buying nitwits.

They're the (almost exclusively) male equivalents of bored middle aged, middle class housewives who develop an obsession with airy-fairy new-agey nonsense like crystals and feng shui. No amount of reason, logic or science will dissuade them from belief in their magical toys, and they will take indignant offense at any attempt to do so.

Just as the new-agey types each tend to consider themselves uniquely attuned to their past lives, phases of the moon, mystical powers, etc., audiophiles of this sort almost always defend their fantasies from reality by asserting that anyone who doesn't claim to be able to hear the effect of their special $495 volume knob is a philistine without the sensitive hearing of a true audiophile.

It's a technique that some very boring, unimaginative people use in order to make themselves feel interesting and special.

Re:Audiophools

[CurlyG]

Uh really? That seems more likely to you does it?

Re:Audiophools

[Prune]

I'm an audiophile and an engineer and I call BS on part of your post: "skin depth". That doesn't come into play at audio frequencies! You'd need to be dealing with gigantic cables to hear any difference due to skin effect (plus, any such difference is linear and so can be fixed with a simple equalizer, rather than spending tons of money on litz or ribbon cables).

Re:Audiophools

[HungSoLow]

And I call BS in regards to your ability to read. I know about skin depth, as I'm an antenna engineer and hence know skin depth doesn't play a role for audio engineering. I merely stated most technical people KNOW about skin depth, and hence know the truth. I never said anything about worrying about it, or making purchases based on it. It's the crap you need to sift through.

Re:Audiophools

[hackstraw]

Mine is an SA2000 :) I don't have the separate amp/preamp, and mine is like 70w/channel, I would guess they are very similar.

Mine has great features like bass/treble defeat buttons. High and low pass filter options. Some kind of magic "perfect volume" button, which I think is a peak limiter of sorts, its got the ultra cool VU meters.

I know for a fact that my tuned port speakers will blow out a lighter. I think that my speakers have like 6.5" bass drivers that can pound a room. I don't understand it. When I heard the speakers, and their detail and bass, I wasn't even in the market for such a purchase, but I was able to get them with a deal and with speaker stands.

I have a musician friend who has said that this setup could be the PA for a smaller club. He (nor I) understand how much sound can come from such small speakers.

I only wish the receiver had a remote for the volume. Its almost unusable when listening to them with commercial broadcasts. But things like Austin City limits and some of the other music stuff on MHD are nice, but I wish there were more HD content vs the chronic repeats.

I'm thinking of taking the amp apart and upgrading the RCA connectors and definitely the speaker connections.

Pretty cool find.

Re:Audiophools

[geekoid]

Except Miller lite is horrid.

Here in the North west, you can't seem to swing a cat without hitting a beer snob;however, there are a lot of brewers that make beer that isn't some sort of condensed bitter taste.

Re:Audiophools

[NeoSkandranon]

It's interesting you mention that, because one of the biggest beer snobs I know is also the biggest audiophile I know. I'd guess certain personalities are just driven to that sort of thing.

For the record though I take my bitter beer in proper mouthfuls because I actually like the taste ;) In the course of a few years homebrewing though I've met many many people who sip, try not to make a face and come up with something about flavors of fig and cardamom.

Hey, there's a market for this

[Skee09]

What's the point of using an $800 HDMI cable to connect my media center PC to my HDTV if the content I'm streaming over my network isn't in the high fidelity I can only get with this $499 Ethernet cable?

datasheet

[drakyri]

Looking at the datasheet for that cable on their website, it seems like the only possibly unique thing they've done is to add a thin metal shield around the cable near the tip - from where it stops being UTP (with all the noise-protection that UTP tends to have) to where the plastic connector-to-NIC starts.

The cable insulation and the rest looks mostly standard - I mean, it's cloth and heatshrink (probably PVC) instead of vinyl, but I can't imagine that the change would make such a huge difference, even in terms of so-called 'vibration protection'. Are electrical signals really that sensitive to normal sounds?

So a huge markup for a very small piece of tin foil and some cloth. Whee!

Re:datasheet

[ozamosi]

So a huge markup for a very small piece of tin foil and some cloth. Whee! That makes you think... How about high fidelity tin foil hats?

Re:datasheet

[sjf]

You're forgetting the signal direction markings: who knew that electrical signals could read ?
I know that before I put little arrows on my cat5 a lot of my ethernet packets were getting lost.

Now I'm going to see if I can do traffic shaping by putting "Slashdot, this way ->" on them.

Re:datasheet

[sjf]

Oh God no. You'll just have greater clarity in the upper octaves and your porn will be more nuanced.

Re:datasheet

[HaeMaker]

Google: Shielded Twisted Pair (STP). Quite common. Probably can get a 1.5m STP cable for about $3.

Re:datasheet

[mprindle]

Looking at the datasheet for that cable on their website, it seems like the only possibly unique thing they've done is to add a thin metal shield around the cable near the tip - from where it stops being UTP (with all the noise-protection that UTP tends to have) to where the plastic connector-to-NIC starts.

The cable insulation and the rest looks mostly standard - I mean, it's cloth and heatshrink (probably PVC) instead of vinyl, but I can't imagine that the change would make such a huge difference, even in terms of so-called 'vibration protection'. Are electrical signals really that sensitive to normal sounds?

So a huge markup for a very small piece of tin foil and some cloth. Whee! I use shielded connectors at work every day. I work in the industrial sector so we must use shielded to keep external noise from interfering with the network. I wish I could charge my customers that much for shielded cables...

Re:datasheet

[MichaelSmith]

Be careful not to put the cable in the wrong way on a switch set to half duplex. Nothing would get through at all.

Re:datasheet

[ArtemaOne]

I've purchased STP before, and it works great in areas I run it. Shielded Twisted Pair is a few cents more expensive than decent Unshielded Twisted Pair. I like fun articles like this, you don't even need to directly express an opinion to make them look stupid.

Re:datasheet

[Skal Tura]

Actually that metalshield is nothing new neither, i have quite a few cables which have in that area an metal shield aswell. And i think they didn't even cost any more than one without :)

Tho, that cable looks just sweet :)

Re:datasheet

[wt29]

Just make sure you use packets with lots of "1"s - those porky little "0"s tend to rotate sideways and get stuck in the wire... Especially if you don't have the direction markings on the cable.

Re:datasheet

[TheGratefulNet]

I know that before I put little arrows on my cat5 a lot of my ethernet packets were getting lost.

not with today's routers. they all have priority queueing.

the problem occurs when the logically set (administrative) value conflicts with the value stamped on the PVC cable jacket.

I mean, what's a packet to do?

THIS is why there is delay in networks. sometimes, a packet has to sit and think before it hops.

Re:datasheet

[Plutonite]

You're forgetting the signal direction markings
Jesus Christ you're talking as if the internet was like a big truck or something. Come on.

Re:datasheet

[DrXym]

There is a store in the UK called Poundland. Like the name suggests every item it sells costs exactly one pound. Amongst the items it frequently sells are ethernet cables, modem cables, USB cables, DVD rewritable media, remote controls, USB hubs, mice, earphones, SCART cables and a bunch of tech stuff amongst all the other things it sells. The sick joke is that in general stuff WORKS and it cost a pound. I recently bought a retractable ethernet cable for a quid. That's a cable you wind up and stuff in a pouch of a laptop bag - very handy. I bet within a year they'll be selling HDMI cables for a quid too.

It's depressing to see someone like Denon engaging in what can only be called a scam. They're only dragging their own name through the mud with this practice.

Re:datasheet

[Antique Geekmeister]

Me, too, especially back in the days of 10Base2 and other co-axial network cabling. Explaining to people using sensitive equipment that they should _not_ bundle their network cables with oscilloscope scope probes with 120V power cables was quite interesting, especiallying explaining that it doesn't matter how well they ground the cables.

Re:datasheet

[porcupine8]

The best part is that the "signal direction" arrow GOES BOTH WAYS. Even if a packet were confused and lost and trying to find its way home, the arrow would just confuse it even more!

Re:datasheet

[skybozo]

Hey! Don't knock the 'vibration protection'. Plenty of people out there really believe it makes a difference. I once worked on a software project that actually had voltage, temperature, and vibration tolerance requirements . . . on the software. I bailed before the software went into final acceptance. I should have kept the requirements spec for posterity, but it was marked proprietary. Maybe Denon should have bid on that project.

Re:datasheet

[Incadenza]

They're only dragging their own name through the mud with this practice.

RIGHT! I do spend _some_ money on audio equipment, but practices like these means that I will never ever consider Denon equipment. If they sell $3 cables for $300, than what will be the quality of a $600 amplifier?

Re:datasheet

[meatmanek]

"Vinyl" typically refers to PVC. All they've done is added a cloth sheath to a probably already manufactured Cat5e or Cat6 cable.

Audio frequency vibrations aren't likely to cause appreciable signal degradation, unless a physical connection is breaking/reconnecting when it vibrates. Assuming enough vibrations over time, the crimp could fail, but if you were to use a $10 cable, this wouldn't be an issue.

Re:datasheet

[Sique]

...it's cloth and heatshrink (probably PVC) instead of vinyl... And what does PVC stand for? Poly-Vinyl-Chloride. So PVC and vinyl are the same stuff: polymerized Vinylchloride n(CH2=CHCl) -> -CH2-CHCl-CH2-CHCl-...

Re:datasheet

[eth1]

I know you're joking, but many "directional" audio cables are simply referring to which end of the cable the shielding is grounded to. Using "signal direction" just helps the unwashed masses get it the right way around (you're supposed to ground the cable on the source end).

Of course, in this case even that doesn't apply...

Audiophiles

[BiggerIsBetter]

Anyone want to buy a $485 wooden volume knob to go with it?

Re:Audiophiles

[belmolis]

Oh, yes, please! Only a high-quality wooden volume control can convey the subtle warmth of audio amplified by vacuum tubes. :)

Re:Audiophiles

[gardyloo]

Perhaps. What's it go to?

Re:Audiophiles

[jonnythan]

A $5000 potentiometer.

Yes, I'm serious.

Re:Audiophiles

[Antibozo]

No, no, no. It goes to 11.

Re:Audiophiles

[lastchance_000]

12

Re:Audiophiles

[amRadioHed]

I can sell you some stickers for $800 which will allow your knobs to go to whatever number you wish. Even 12.

Re:Audiophiles

[Chas]

I have a special model that goes to 11.001315 for the ultimate in hyper-level acoustic excess. I can precisely beat myself into jelly with this model and a couple of 5-story high speaker stacks.

Re:Audiophiles

[Alsee]

I want my knobs to go to Pi.
I know, it's an irrational desire.

-

Re:Audiophiles

[T3Tech]

If it doesn't go to 42 it's useless.

Re:Audiophiles

[cathector]

.. but the experience is transcendent.

Re:Audiophiles

[mcvos]

While I agree that audiophile equipment is usually ridiculous, vacuum tubes do make a difference. They distort the signal in very agreeable ways.

In fact, this same effect is used by every famous overdriven guitar tone you've ever heard. Tubes are the element that give quality guitar amps their warmth and clarity. Every famous guitarist uses them for that reason. Alright, if you want distortion, I'm willing to accept vacuum tubes do it better. But what if I don't want distortion? For example when I'm shopping for my stero system instead of my guitar?

Re:Audiophiles

[Prune]

The so called "warmth" in vacuum tube amps has nothing to do with vacuum tubes. Seems some people simply like the distortion of the output transformers needed to drive speakers (which are low impedance) with tubes (which are high impedance). Vacuum tubes themselves are pretty linear (when loaded by a constant current source, a single triode is inherently more linear a voltage gain device than a single transistor) so the only way they can _add_ anything is if they're run at a suboptimal portion of their I-V curve (translation: bad design). I don't think that is normally done, unless it's a guitar amp where you actually want distortion. So the "warmth" can only come from the output transformer. That's not surprising considering the phase nonlinearities and hysteresis they introduce. Tubes are great, however, when driving a very high impedance load such as electrostatic or plasma speakers, since that's done directly instead of through an output transformer. And having built such amplifiers, I can say there's no "warmth" or anything of the sort added by a naked tube. On the contrary, you get a decrease in higher harmonics compared to a transistor amp (to which the ear is quite sensitive) at the expense of an increase in low harmonics (to which the ear is relatively insensitive, something like up to 1% for 2nd harmonic is masked by the ear).

There is more

[gotw]

While they're at it they should just purchase this wonderful device to demagentize your CD's.

Re:There is more

[mudetroit]

As an EE major this seriously makes me want to hurt someone.

Re:There is more

[gmby]

Thanks!
I was looking for something to wipe all those hard drive platters laying around my floor. I did'nt want the cleanning lady to pick them up and give them to her pimply faced son; to reasymble and get my private porn collection. He might put it online and then where would I be?

Great peace of hardware!

Thanks agin!

Big Long John Al

Re:There is more

[jbrader]

Oh man that's really classic. It says that tiny iron particles in your CDs get spun inside the player and create tiny electric fields that interfere with your gear. Awsome. I'm pretty sure that a person's electrical field is many, many times larger than any field produced this way. That's right all you audiophiles, if you leave the room your music will sound better than ever.

Re:There is more

[Blakey Rat]

From the "review":

We already knew of the theory behind why demagnetizing CDs nets audible results. The aluminum used for the reflective CD layer is contaminated with ferrous impurities and thus susceptible to magnetizing. Ditto for the ink used for printing the label. When the CD spins at up to 500 RPM, these ferrous particles begin to act as magnets as they are moving in a -- however small -- magnetic field. Let's assume that after an hour's play, all magnetizable particles have activated. We'll thus have a fair amount of magnets rotating inside a magnetic field. Little imagination is required to appreciate that such magnets could have a detrimental effect on all electronic circuits in the vicinity. As we have reported in our article on copying CDs to improve their sound quality, a great deal of the CD system is analog in nature and thus very much prone to external influences such as moving magnetic fields.

The most frightening thing is that these people seem to understand the difference between analog and digital, and STILL believe this bullshit. BTW, has anybody ever seen a negative review of audiophile crap?

Re:There is more

[Oktober Sunset]

Oh no, it gets funnier, check out the last few paragraphs of that review where they try it out on their vinyl records!

Re:There is more

[7 digits]

Priceless. And what LP do they use with their ultra-mega-high-tech audiophile equipment ? A version of Samson playing Chopin ? No.

The second album of Suzanne Vega which is visiblein the last picture...

Re:There is more

[Nazlfrag]

Better yet, leave the country and it will be perfect!

Re:There is more

[Guppy06]

The best part are the pics that show the guy's room. The only time a woman sees that room is when his mother comes down to do the laundry.

Re:There is more

[springbox]

The first note already was a surprise. It seemed as if analog was even more analog. That little edge on middle and high notes, that glare, was completely gone now. Overall the sound was warmer, more rounded and fuller of color.

Amazing. I didn't know sound had color. Aren't placebos amazing?

Re:There is more

[jayhawk88]

Overall the sound was warmer, more rounded and fuller of color.

And then I told my companion Dr. Gonzo, "Don't stop here you fool, this is bat country!"

Re:There is more

[failure-man]

Better change that to "?E" or even "high school grad." The pure bullshit was overwhelming . . . . about from the first time they mentioned "theory."

Re:There is more

[frdmfghtr]

As an EE major this seriously makes me want to hurt someone.

As an EE major you should make it a senior project to prove/debunk this scientifically.

Take a CD (or better yet, several CDs of different brands) and record a set of sounds on them. For example, record sine wave tones of 50, 500, 1k, 5k, 10k, and 20k Hertz. Go a step further and record square and sawtooth waves of the same set of audible frequencies.

Now, run the audio output of a CD player (the CD drive audio out will suffice I would think) into a oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer and capture the resulting output wave/spectrum. Maybe take a few sample runs and compile each run into an average.

Get your EE dept. to buy one of these devices (you're a college student; don't spend your own money), treat the CDs with the device, and repeat the test. Compare the audio waveform and the spectral content before and after the "demagnetization" treatment.

You will note the the 6moons site states that the equipment and CDs "sound" better; it's purely subjective. YOU, on the other hand, will scientifically demonstrate what we all believe to be a big sham. "Just like with treated CDs, a veil or haze was lifted and more and finer details were able to make it through to the listener." Yeah, because the listener believed that was supposed to happen.

Re:There is more

[frdmfghtr]

He might put it online and then where would I be?

Sitting pretty with an online backup in case of disaster.

Re:There is more

[NotmyNick]

BTW, has anybody ever seen a negative review of audiophile crap?

Of course. The $5 budget cable manufactured on the same line with the same raw materials. After all, don't you know, you always get what you pay for?

Re:There is more

[Rycross]

The sad thing is that I knew a girl who was an EE major and the type of audiophile thought bought into this shit. I could never figure that one out.

Re:There is more

[Alsee]

They work great on harddrive music collections too!

I was playing John Cage's classic 4'33, and the the audio reproduction has never been more perfect!

-

Re:There is more

[rrohbeck]

You just don't know the science behind it:

"We already knew of the theory behind why demagnetizing CDs nets audible results. The aluminum used for the reflective CD layer is contaminated with ferrous impurities and thus susceptible to magnetizing. Ditto for the ink used for printing the label. When the CD spins at up to 500 RPM, these ferrous particles begin to act as magnets as they are moving in a -- however small -- magnetic field. "

Man, this is hard physics. Nothing that a humble EE would understand.

Re:There is more

[Quantumstate]

At last I can finally get rid of those nasty rough edges from the precious digital bytes being read from my CD. The difference in sound is incredible of course.

Re:There is more

[gotw]

Heh :) I got the joke even if no-one else did!

Re:There is more

[absurdist]

Sweet merciful FSM.

PLEASE tell me this was parody.

Re:There is more

[Maxmin]

The Demons keeping up with the Monsters. Don't tell the Denon engineers that the most they could do is reduce packet resends. My gawd, a $499 ethernet cable!!

This is just as ridiculous as the absurdist audiophile magazine reviews of CD-Rs, ones that claimed CD-Rs produced noticeably different audio qualities (e.g. "richer, warmer") depending on the manufacturer and materials. Some reviewers claimed the CD-R copy sounded better than the original!

Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer.

The plug jackets have silk-screened lines-with-arrowheads, telling the bits which way to flow (both, apparently.) Knew I shoulda patented that brilliant solution for obtaining "optimum signal transfer" years ago.

Amusingly, the words "gold" and "gold-plated" do *not* appear on Denon's catalog page. I'd want at least gold wiring for half a grand. (Half a grand! Are we not rich? Absurd.)

Re:There is more

[story645]

Applied theory? What's that? Most of my EE courses seem to be about solving some specific type of problem, maybe occasionally wiring something up.

Re:There is more

[skulgnome]

Can I use it to demagnetize my video tapes too? Because after 70 viewings, they're starting to look sort of noisy.

Re:There is more

[ArAgost]

And don't forget to rewind them after you've finished!

Re:There is more

[eth1]

And Cthulu forbid you use SPEAKERS anywhere near that delicate magnetically sensitive CD player!!

You've gotta be kidding me!

[crashandburn66]

So basically, these people want $500 for what amounts to eight thin wires and some plastic? They could've made them out of pure silver and saved some money, considering silver is like 20 dollars per ounce. And does anyone really think that woven jacketing and tin shielding justify the rest of the price? I'd bet they spend about $50 making this and then just go and rip people off. Thanks, but I'll be sticking to my 99-cent ethernet cable.

Re:Someone will ask for it

[Ethanol-fueled]

...And I thought Monster cable's prices were ridiculous.

I think they meant $4.99, not $499.00

[Anonymous Coward]

Even $50 would be a rip-off. This is insane. I guess in the audiophile world there will always be some moron willing to pay a high price just to say they have the best. Any sound improvement you hear with this must be due to a placebo effect.

Re:I think they meant $4.99, not $499.00

[K8Fan]

All of the subtle differences honestly claimed by audiophiles by changing cables, replacing knobs, putting m'pingo discs on the CD player, etc? They are all due to one simple fact - their heads were not in the exact same location as they were before they changed the cable, replaced the knob, etc. Ethan Winer has an excellent article about the effect of comb filtering. Borrowing from a summery in Mix Magazine:

Winer points out that in a typical room, moving one's head or listening position as little as four inches can result in huge changes in the frequency-response curves one is hearing. What could be a 10dB dip in one spot at one frequency could be a 6dB boost a couple of inches away. These wide variations are caused primarily by comb-filtering effects from the speakers and from the various reflections bouncing around the room, which are present no matter how well the room is acoustically treated. Winer blames this phenomenon for most of the unquantifiable differences people report hearing when they are testing high-end gear.

He writes, "I am convinced that comb filtering is at the root of people reporting a change in the sound of cables and electronics, even when no significant change is likely. If someone listens to their system using one pair of cables, then gets up and switches cables and sits down again, the frequency response heard is sure to be very different because it's impossible to sit down again in exactly the same place. So the sound really did change, but probably not because the cables sound different!"

All these well-meaning but misguided folks shoveling money into the coffers of snake-oil salesmen should spend it instead on improving the acoustics of their listening room. I've seen insanely expensive speakers sitting on hardwood floors in front of ceiling high glass windows...and the guy is hoping that putting the speakers on little cones will make them less harsh!

Re:I think they meant $4.99, not $499.00

[TheLink]

Comb filtering?

I think it's more to do with reality filtering ;).

Some day...

[Kjella]

...I wish someone would do a form of blind test - split a bunch of audiophiles into two different groups. Tell one group the price and quality of each system, while the other group isn't told anything and can only listen to the system. Or for extra fun, a third group that's telling them all sorts of wrong information. It'd be fun to see how much that would impact their impression of the system.

Re:Some day...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well here's your answer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/14/humanbehaviour

"How being swindled can make you feel better" by the Guardian's "Bad Science" columnist, Ben Goldacre.

Re:Some day...

[Achoi77]

This was done with wine, often with humbling results.

Re:Some day...

[Achoi77]

I originally meant the alcoholic beverage, but I suppose the software relation may also apply.

Re:Some day...

[maxume]

I'm pretty sure there is a decay function. A $3 bottle generally isn't going to be as good as a $10 bottle, but even though a $10 bottle that you like is a better experience than a $25 you don't like, people need to feel like that $15 bought something, so they 'prefer' the $25 bottle.

It works for spirits too, I'm pretty sure that $13 Smirnoff is more than 40% as good as $29 absolut or $35 Goose. Probably like 85%. 5 O'clock is probably about 5% as good.

So a $100 DVD player may actually be quite a lot better than a $25 DVD player (perhaps the menus are sane, or it is more reliable), but the only difference between the $100 DVD player and a $500 DVD player is about $400 of profit.

Re:Some day...

[Joska]

This type of test has been conducted a great many times over the years. Notable is the work of Dr. Floyd Toole when he was head of the acoustics lab at the Department Of Physics at Canada's National Research Council in Ottawa. He was able to demonstrate that people of all sorts would recognize and prefer the sound reproduction that was most accurate in terms of having the lowest distortion, flattest frequency response and best loudspeaker dispersion as long as they did not know what equipment they were listening to. When they did know, their beliefs and preconceptions essentially determined their perceptions.

Re:Some day...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an audiophile. I love high-end stuff and I've messed with all kinds of audio equipment looking for the best bang-for-the-buck. Believe me, some of this top-dollar stuff is nearly holographic to listen to.

That said- There's a big divide in the audio community over double-blind testing. There's a vocal group who says that a blind A/B test is completely invalid. Then, these idiots turn around and make claims like, "When I stuck a piece of the magical masking tape to the speaker cabinet, the sound just opened up and gave me an instant orgasm that made me convulse on the floor for ten minutes." Okay, it's not quite that bad but if the difference is huge, why won't a double-blind test work? Hell, I can tell the difference between a cat turd and French silk pie, even blindfolded!

The problem is that some audiophiles need to spend money to feel like they're not being complacent about their baby... er.. system. They want that little extra push over the edge (to 11) so bad that they will themselves into hearing it. Some tweaks really are useful. If you optimize everything then the net improvement may be noticeable even if the individual tweaks aren't, but knowing what the weak links are is key. Six feet of gold power cord isn't going to do anything about the hundreds of feet of ordinary house wiring your power travels through. In fact, it is the job of your component's power supply to shield you from hearing what's going on in the AC world anyway. Even if the cable makes a slight difference, its effect should be attenuated into nothingness.

Oh well, we aren't all morons, and Denon probably figured they needed to get a $500 network cable to market before everyone else did.

Re:Some day...

[RealGrouchy]

...which is why Linux, Firefox and OpenOffice.org should be sold for 100% more than their MS counterparts, not 100% less!

- RG>

Re:Some day...

[ucblockhead]

You don't need a blind test. Ethernet is digital. You cannot get better than "0 dropped packets" no matter how good the cable is, and given modern error correction techniques, even with some dropped packets, the actual bits that get delivered and turned into sound will be identical.

Re:Some day...

[squidfood]

It works for spirits too, I'm pretty sure that $13 Smirnoff is more than 40% as good as $29 absolut or $35 Goose. Probably like 85%.

Yah, but that missing 15% really fucking hurts the next day.

Re:Some day...

[DriftingDutchman]

Makes me think of those overpriced CEOs

Re:Some day...

[TastelessGarbage]

A few years ago, NYT did a blind taste test of 51 vodkas. Smirnoff Red was #1.

It turned out that 49 of the 51 vodkas used the same alcohol base purchased from ADM; 2 others (Belvedere and something else) used their own potatoes.

With 'premium' vodkas, all you are paying for is the bottle design. The story of Grey Goose tells all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Goose_vodka

Re:Some day...

[maxume]

Not in my experience. But then, I don't drink a lot of the expensive stuff.

Re:Some day...

[LordVader717]

I read an article where they done precisely this with a load of different audiophile baloney. None of them could tell the difference. When they were told the answers, their reactions were mainly denial and they started getting defensive.
Things like "Even my Girlfreind can hear the difference, and she doesn't know anything about audio". And they started blaming certain parts of the equipment. One guy who brought along his speaker cable he paid hundreds for even tried to nail it down to the fact that he wasn't able to use his banana-plugs but had to connect the wire directly.

Just found the link, but it's in german.

Re:Some day...

[RightSaidFred99]

Has this ever been tested in a blind study? Vodka dweebs always claim the expensive stuff is so much better and they have a much less hangover the next day. This is retarded for at least a few reasons. First, it's the alcohol that gives you the hangover, dummy. Second, what kind of crap do you think is in e.g. coffee, tea, sodas, etc..? When I go on a binder with those I don't wake up the next day with a horrible hangover.

Face it - if you're a vodka snob and claim you get less of a hangover with expensive vodka, you're just as much of an idiot as the "green marker", "Monster Cable" crowd.

Re:Some day...

[ShakaUVM]

It's the impurities in the alcohol that also give hangovers. Drinking Tecate gives me splitting headaches, but other kinds of Mexican beer doesn't, for example.

Google vodka impurities, and you'll see the expensive stuff does have less, but once you pass a certain price breakpoint (maybe around $30, not high) then you're just paying for the brand name. But Schmirnoff, and lord forfend, Ralph's Brand Charcoal-Filtered Vodka, are pretty bad.

Re:Some day...

[Nightspirit]

I'm not an alcohol snob, I rarely pay more than $10 for 750ml bottle of vodka, and I used to drink it pretty heavily (now only rarely). I never get hangovers, and one day I said screw it, and bought one of the "$6 in a plastic bottle" type of deals. I didn't notice much difference in taste, but the next morning was hell, and I learned my lesson. Could be placebo, could be impurities, but it's not worth it to try it again.

Re:Some day...

[analog_line]

Smirnoff is actually liquid stomach solvent. Back when I drank a lot of vodka, I stayed the hell away from Smirnoff and my hangovers were definitely 85% less awful when I did.

Though yes, often you can find great deals in bourbon and other whiskeys, where there's a lot more room for variation in how you prepare, store and age, blend, etc. There are real variations in taste, a huge range in ABV. When I drink these days, I pretty much stick to bourbon, because I found a couple amazing values at ridiculously cheap prices for their taste. I love scotch, but so does everyone else, and while new distilleries do open (or re-open old closed ones) from time to time, the good ones get snapped up and prices jump soon after (Speyside you could get for under $20/bottle when they re-opened the distillery and it's climbed up once people figured out that it was good). Gin you get a lot of variation, but it's flavored and each type has subtle differences, so that helps.

Vodka is a lot more hip these days, and really, it's grain neutral spirit by definition. Unless you're adding things to it (like the various Absolut or Stolichnaya flavorings) it's all down to the quality and efficacy of your distillation process. I've drunk a lot of different kinds of vodka, and with a single exception, anything from Absolut on up the only differences were in the packaging and marketing (my favorite being Thor's Hammer vodka, which came in a bottle shaped like a renfest water bottle, with Viking-esque designs all over it, been looking for it FOREVER and haven't been able to find it, 'cause I lost the bottle). That one exception was a vodka that claimed to be quintuple distilled, called Pearl. Never seen it but once in 2000 in some booze megamarket in Houston, and it was flat out amazing. Other than that, Absolut, Stoli, Belvedere, Chopin, Grey Goose, tried them all. In the end, they weren't much different.

Rum is also a lot of marketing hooey, though some of the heavily spiced rums do have their own taste (Sailor Jerry Navy Rum is great stuff).

Re:Some day...

[loraksus]

You really need to try the bottom shelf polish vodka.

Under the commies, only a few types (shapes) of bottles were made. This vodka was bottled in the "household cleaner" type of bottle.

I bought a liter for 8.5 zl a few years back ($1.25 USD at the time more or less). I was young, stupid.

Dear fucking christ, the hangover was so bad that everything since has paled in comparison.

Re:Some day...

[mgblst]

Yes, but what do you mean by good, when we are talking about taste, and people prefer different tastes?

Re:Some day...

[maxume]

I'm pretty sure I captured that when I talked about wine you like and wine you don't like.

As far as Vodka, tastes will indeed vary among people who enjoy paint thinner, but beyond that, it isn't particularly subjective as subjective experiences go.

Re:Some day...

[maxume]

So how often did you drink Smirnoff? 1 in 5, or 1 in 100? If it is 1 in 100 times, how the hell do you separate it out from how much you drank? I suppose you might have been the guy who measured 250 ml into a flask and only drank that, and did it every night, but I sort of doubt it.

You could do a blind test. Have someone else prepare two equal amounts of vodka and then have a Saturday bender with each one. Maybe do it with 20 bottles that you have no idea what it is, and record the Sunday hangover. If You consistently felt worse with Smirnoff (without knowing you drank it), then fine. If you drank it twice a year and happen to remember it poorly, well, whatever.

Re:Some day...

[Prune]

I remember an anecdote where someone bought a new power cable and thought it made all this incredible difference to the sound quality from their amplifier. Then the person realized he had actually forgotten to switch in the new cable! LOL

I'm an audiophile myself, but also an engineer and believer in blind tests. The problem though is that most people are turned off by the effort it takes to conduct a proper blind test, and the industry of course is turned off since it gives them less room to make outrageous marketing claims.

Re:Some day...

[analog_line]

Back then I just drank vodka and OJ or lemonade. That was pretty much it, didn't touch even beer really. When other people were buying, or I didn't have enough cash to afford better, it was Smirnoff because it was about as low as you could go before getting into plastic bottle vodka, and you'd have to sink pretty low to get there. I drank enough of it to tell, believe me.

Re:Some day...

[maxume]

Gilbey's and Gordon's generally come in glass for ~$8. The glass is stocked right next to the plastic.

If you were drinking it with OJ or lemonade, you were probably drinking a huge amount of it, so I guess you would be able to sniff out the nuances to the hangovers.

(of course, I'm still skeptical, maybe you were bitter that other people bought cheap shit and drank more, etc., but there really isn't any reason to take the point further, there is no good way to tell short of a huge carefully designed study, and I don't care that much)

Nice Cat

[petecarlson]

I have been looking at 5000' spools of cat5e with insane pricing but the per foot cost on this is just nuts. I am guessing this us used for "ethersound". I have no idea what that is but it seems to be what all the nice flexible pur jacketed cables are meant for. If you just want some nice cable, look at
Mercator cat.5 pur or Koltz Ramcat5.

P.S.
I am looking for reasonably priced, stranded, shielded, pur jacketed, outdoor rated cat5 or cat5e with a diameter from 5.9 to 6.5 mm. Anyone have a source?

Re:Nice Cat

[linzeal]

Talk to your local construction companies that do commercial buildings. A lot of them use it on site to hookup the trailers.

Re:Nice Cat

[MadnessASAP]

My dads an electrician and I lucked out and got a box of Cat6 from him once. Too bad all my cabling need had been satisfied by some shitty Cat5 some of which was even held together by twisting the wires together and covered in masking tape. Unfortunately the audio quality through them was really shitty, I could have really used some $500 Ethernet back then.

In other news...

[Radium_]

A fool and his money are soon parted

Re:In other news...

[tzot]

Pessimistically adjusting the old adage:

"When an experienced salesman meets a rich client, the salesman becomes rich but the client remains blissfully ignorant."

Re:In other news...

[notnAP]

"A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place." - Gordon Gecko

Re:In other news...

[Gavagai80]

Probably just inherited.

Re:In other news...

[AliasMarlowe]

In fact, it is immoral, unethical, and almost unforgivable to leave a fool with any money.

Re:In other news...

[dave420]

Can I buy that saying off you? I've only got £5,000. I can get the rest to you tomorrow.

Truth in advertising

[dn15]

I don't doubt that this is a well-made cable, but why don't they get in trouble for implying that it will even make a difference in your viewing experience? That is, wont *any* cable "bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction" as long as there's functional error correction and sufficient bandwidth to stream all data being transmitted?

Re:Truth in advertising

[MadnessASAP]

Hell, I used to work at the Brick in the warehouse and although I never really liked any of the sales people (They we're as bad as lawyers) I especially disliked the AV ones because they would try to sell Monster fiber optic cable that cost more per foot then undersea cables, even worse was that over the 3-4 feet that these cable would run you could use a cheap piece of plastic fiber and still get the same result.

Wow.

[ZERO1ZERO]

I bet somebody will buy that. Imagine selling an ethernet cable for 500 bucks. Even selling one has to be worth it.

Re:Wow.

[mikael]

One branch of ComputerWorld used to sell boxes of 10 3.5" pre-formatted floppy disks for 100 pounds/box. This particular branch was next to an oil company headquarters.

What a Brilliant Technical Innovation

[OzTech]

These cable will be a great leap forward for Digital Audio.

The arrows to indicate direction will mean that the Electrons wont have to look around before knowing which way they are supposed to be moving. This will allow them to get to their destination quicker and even take a moment to go back and get any stragglers who can't keep up. The end result being that all of the electrons will arrive at the intended destination and as you can imagine this will mean a much better signal.

The next generation of these will probably contain filters to stop those pesky noise electrons making their way down the cable. This will really help the signal to noise ratio, although the commercial development of this is still a little way off yet.

Re:What a Brilliant Technical Innovation

[NevermindPhreak]

I work with coax all day, and I know that problems in the cable can cause micro-reflections and other such things, where the signal actually bounces back towards the source and causes interference. So you could technically create a cable that blocks any signal sent back along the same wire. I don't think it's currently possible, though, because that usually involves filters that are a lot bigger than the cable itself. I don't even know how you'd do that on ethernet, since you have bi-directional communication.

You pay a gazillion dollars for high-end HDMI cables because of the flaws of HDMI itself: unshielded twisted-pair over possibly long distances with no error control. Maybe in the audio world, cat-5 doesn't use error correction. Regardless, i thought optical connections were the standard for high-end audio connections.

Re:What a Brilliant Technical Innovation

[gzunk]

Maybe with a terminator?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_termination

Re:What a Brilliant Technical Innovation

[sr. bigotes]

Given that you work with coax all day, I find it hard to believe you've never heard of impedance matching, which will take care of your little problems with reflections in a jiffy.

Also, you're completely wrong about HDMI and "error control". All digital transmissions are subject to some kind of error correction. I mean, I suppose you could have a receiver that didn't bother, but that would be stupid. Either way, the cable doesn't and can't perform that error correction anyway. No cables do; it all happens at the receiver. I've come to the conclusion that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yay for Amazon.com!

[Briareos]

Even Amazon.com sells them - that means it can only be good, right?

Right?

*nudge nudge wink wink*

np: Anthony Rother - Liquid System (My Name Is Beuys Von Telekraft)

Re:Yay for Amazon.com!

[sharkey]

I like the first review:


"A caution to people buying these: if you do not follow the "directional markings" on the cables, your music will play backwards. Please check that before mentioning it in your reviews. "

Is ALL Denon suspect?

[hirschma]

I was thinking of buying a Denon AV receiver for my home theater upgrade.

Then I see this. Are all their claims just sheer puffery? How can I take their brand seriously?

If this Ethernet garbage is just an aberration, don't they know that doing it will have the reverse effect on consumers with clue?

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[Ben Jackson]

I have a Denon receiver (several generations back) and I really like it. I'm very disappointed by this cable because I thought Denon was an audio brand I could trust. Until I saw this stupid cable, I would have been happy to choose a new AV receiver by picking any Denon model that had the inputs and outputs I needed. Now I'm wondering if I have to add them to my list of "avoid!" companies like HP...

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[bjackson1]

Denon makes excellent equipment. I'd put myself in the category of "audiophile with a clue". That is I understand the basics of how electric signals work, I've built and designed my own speakers, and I generally geek out on audio reproduction.

Honestly, my guess is there is a demand for this cable out there. They have a Denon link cable which is "proprietary". I think that it is Cat-5 but it is not wired the same as normal Cat-5. Rich audiophiles who are clueless have very expensive cables, but can not get a really awesome looking cable for their Denon. They call Denon, and ask for it.

If someone called you right now and said "I need a 500 dollar Cat-5 cable", would you sell it?

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[DigitalSorceress]

I've got an AVR 4306 - this is my second Denon, having outgrown the "gazintas" and "gazoutas" of my previous one (which now does duty as my bedroom stereo)

I've been very VERY happy with it. I really like that this particular model upsamples all video inputs to HDMI, greatly simplifying my remote control macros and keeping the cabling from being such a tangle.

I don't think that the fact that they make a silly, overpriced cable for "golden ears" (or more likely for wannabe "golden ears") really shouldn't dissuade you from the whole company. Judge the product on features and how it sounds and how it treats your video. My guess is that you might get some decent advice, reviews, and alternatives from AVS Forum.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[xrayspx]

Looks standard enough. Based on the colors you can easily make out (Orange, blue and brown), it looks like the pinout could be orange-white, orange, green-white, blue, blue-white, green, brown-white, brown.

Besides, even if it's a "special" pinout, today it would cost me about 60 cents to make a 5' Cat5e cable, any pinout I want.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[hirschma]

If someone called you right now and said "I need a 500 dollar Cat-5 cable", would you sell it? If I was going to be in the business of selling Cat-5 cables, and didn't really care much about the long term, sure.

If I'm in the business, for the long haul, of selling equipment that has a (supposedly) respected brand because of quality, nope.

Compare how you feel about the Denon name to how your feel about Monster Cable. Why would they sully their reputation so? In short, they can sell a few stupid cables to a few stupid people, but they could also lose more than a few sales to competitors that don't feel the need to engage in such stupidities. Are they going to make so much from these pure-copper Cat-5 cables that it'll be worth the negative PR that they're getting just here on Slashdot, and the mocking that will ensue by thousands of potential consumers (and likely, to be seen on Gizmodo, Engadget, Fark, in some corners of AVS forums, etc. etc.)

Someone is going to get fired over this.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[ScrewMaster]

There are very few established brands anymore. Unfortunately for us and the Europeans, China has been using our brand-consciousness against us for some years now. Old-line American audio equipment manufacturers like Marantz sold their names and are now just marketing fronts. The point being, a particular model from a particular maker may be good quality and worth the money, but you can no longer depend upon branding as a reliable indicator of quality. You need to do your research first before you plunk down your money (good advice in any event, but it's especially true today.)

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[Joska]

I don't support companies that believe in abusing the trust of their customers. People without a technological background don't deserve to be preyed upon simply by virtue of being vulnerable.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[Anonymous Coward]

Harman Kardon. They still measure the old fashioned way: the one true way, using all frequencies (pink noise), and all channels. Their watts are real watts. When they say you get 50 watts per channel, you get 50 watts per channel, instead of 2-300 watts for five to seven channels, on a narrow frequency, like most other amp-receivers, including Denon.

Less expensive, more powerful, and vastly less snake oil, compared to Denon. I've long considered Denon to be way over priced, and under performing. Money would be better spent on good 70's hifi stereo amp & receiver, compared to their stuff (which, incidentally is not a bad place to start). But that's just my opinion.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[HeavyDevelopment]

No buy a Denon receiver and you will be happy. I own a middle of the pack Denon receiver and I'm very satisfied (although their speakers are passable....looking to upgrade those). But everyone I know that owns a Denon has been satisfied.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[gyrogeerloose]

Are all their claims just sheer puffery?

In a word, no. I've been using Denon equipment for over 20 years and been satisfied with everything ever purchased. I currently use an AVR-2807 for the home theater and except for the overly-complicated remote control, it's a very nice unit for the price.

BTW, don't pay the MSRP for any Denon unit--there's always a deal to be had

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[Raineer]

I'm extremely disappointed to see this... Denon is quality equipment and always has been. I'm basically ashamed at this moment to have a Denon A/V receiver sitting in the living room...

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[mike260]

My guess is that you might get some decent advice, reviews, and alternatives from AVS Forum [avsforum.com]. Well I had a look and couldn't see any indication that anyone there understood the difference between analogue and digital signals, and what that implies for super-high-quality cables (ie. total waste of money).

And BTW, a 10,000% markup goes beyond 'silly' and 'overpriced' as you put it, and well inside the realm of cynical, nasty, exploitative behaviour.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[the eric conspiracy]

Denon makes very good stuff in a variety of price categories. They have some very good engineering and some of their products like the AVP-A1HD are to die for. Of course you can't trust marketing claims though - ever. You have to do your homework too.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[the eric conspiracy]

AVForums and AVSForum are two completely different sites. And of course you will get a wide variety of levels of expertise. But if you take your time to weed through the chaff there is a lot of good information on AVS Forum.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[kiddygrinder]

Cheap +5 Insightful: just say "All Americans suck because {insert generalization here}" I've done it a couple times, it really hurts if you make a joke about it, cause you get about 50 overrated and 55 funny mods. In general it's not worth the risk :)

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[jeffy210]

I have owned a AVR-3802, AVR-3803 and now a AVR-3808CI as well as the DVD-2900 universal player and I have been extremely happy with everything that they do, from upconversion to quality. My jaw dropped when I saw this and I was seriously hoping it was a joke. I am tempted to drop them a line and ask them but I don't think it would go anywhere.

Sadly, don't let this single product affect your opinion of them. Maybe they're doing it as a test to see how many truely stupid people are out there.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[cmacb]

I don't think that the fact that they make a silly, overpriced cable for "golden ears" (or more likely for wannabe "golden ears") really shouldn't dissuade you from the whole company.

I disagree. I don't buy a lot of audio equipment, or often, but when I do I'm willing to do some research and having done so, willing to spend some money.

This is either a scam or there are a lot of people at Denon that don't have a clue.

In either case, my respect for the company and its products just approached zero.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[Xyrus]

Dear Friend,

You should be aware that clues are classified as dangerous, and should only be used by trained professionals.

The training to use clues is fairly rigorous and intense, and therefore few of the general public actually have clues.

In fact, GWB has been a great forward thinker in this regard. The actions of his administration, along with help of the media conglomerates have almost eliminated the threat of untrained civilians accidentally stumbling upon, obtaining, or using clues.

We must be ever vigilant in this matter, as clues are direct threat to our way of life. It may be hard to stop getting clues once you start, but think of your family and loved ones. They will help you through this trying and difficult time.

Be aware that there are groups and individuals out there who knowingly distribute clues. They can be family members or friends. They may even be in our schools, despite our best efforts to eliminate clues before children get them.

If you suspect someone of having a clue, here are some warning signs to look out for:

1. Strange behavior, such as exhibiting common sense or disagreeing with a News personality.

2. A peculiar need for facts.

3. Indifference to important events, such as who is currently winning American Idol.

If you, or someone you know has a clue, you should contact the Clue Crisis Center immediately. The people there are trained professionals and will be able to handle clues appropriately. Clues can spread quickly, without warning, and may cause sudden outbreaks of common sense if left untreated so speed is of the essence, especially if you may have come in contact with a clue recently.

Once again I thank you for your support in this matter as a patriotic American. This is a War On Clues, and for the sake of our country we must be victorious.

Sincerely,
The Department of Homeland Ignorance

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[mea_culpa]

I'll use a car analogy:
Auto enthusiast spends $1000 or more to have a spoiler attached to the rear hatch even though it is illegal to drive at a speed where the spoiler would show any benefit. Then pays thousands more for chrome and gold plated engine components under the hood. (which adds nothing to the actual performance of the car)
This is just bling and bling comes in many varieties.
If someone has $30,000+ invested in an AV system that they enjoy showing off it would look tacky to have generic cables attached even though they perform just the same, like having equally functional engine components without bling in a hot rod.
Denon profits $495 for each of these, they are filling a niche bling market and if they did sell them for $10 it would be tacky in the eyes of their customer.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[evilviper]

Old-line American audio equipment manufacturers like Marantz sold their names and are now just marketing fronts.

So? You get a crappy product from a formerly good brand, and you buy elsewhere in the future. Isn't that what branding is FOR? It's underhanded, but how is this a problem?

The point being, a particular model from a particular maker may be good quality and worth the money, but you can no longer depend upon branding as a reliable indicator of quality.

I would say just the opposite... Now that millions of new brands are popping up all the time, and making crap, while claiming it's pate, is the ideal time to start paying attention to brand names. You can no longer walk into your favorite store and assume everything on the shelves will work just fine, and as described.

You need to do your research first before you plunk down your money (good advice in any event, but it's especially true today.)

Yes, always good advice. You should be sure to try out that pack of gum before you buy it. You should test drive any potential vehicles for 20 years to make sure you know they will hold up. Clearly, that's the real answer. Ignore brand names.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[fredr1k]

Sorry to tell you, Marantz is not American at all. It's Dutch, it's a brand Owned by Philips.

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[maestroX]

The point being, a particular model from a particular maker may be good quality and worth the money, but you can no longer depend upon branding as a reliable indicator of quality.

Yes, you can. The branding just moved and says: "Made in Japan".

Re:Is ALL Denon suspect?

[molo]

McIntosh remains pretty much true to their roots. All the analog components are designed and manufactured in Binghamton, New York to very high standards. Of course their price point is notably higher than Denon or Marantz.

    http://mcintoshlabs.com/

-molo

Compatibility?

[Sponge Bath]

The PDF user's manual does not specify if works with my 1975 Sears all-in-one turntable, tuner and 8-track console.
You can't find that kind of fidelity anymore, at any price.

Attention to detail, eh?

[jersacct]

Quote: "Attention to detail when building this cable was used by empoying high quality insulation..." Notice any red underlines while employing your extreme attentive powers Denon?

RTFA "...designed for the audio enthusiast."

[Dr.Altaica]

Thease marketed as that same people who buy $7,250 Pear Anjou speaker cables

Re:Someone will ask for it

[mikesd81]

And since we're talking about cat5 cabling.........here.

And...

[Beefslaya]

I have a bridge to sell you in Northern Michigan.

Only $499.

typo?

[markybob]

i really hope it's a typo. it's 1.5meters...maybe it's supposed to be $4.99? :P

Inaccurate headline - not for ethernet

[Anonymous Coward]

Not trying to justify this, but this not for ethernet, but a proprietary digital audio transmission from Denon sources to Denon receviers.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/press-releases/denon-digital-link-receives-approval-for-sacd-transmission/

This isn't for Ethernet

[nelsonen]

It's for Super Audio CD, and the cable carries a bitstream that doesn't have much or any error correction.

Re:This isn't for Ethernet

[DigitalSorceress]

Quite possibly the first time I've heard a plausible explanation for high-price digital cables.... but a bit too high for my liking. I've got a fairly decent stereo system - set up for home theater, but I'm no "golden ears" and I really don't think I could tell the difference between good and great speakers, let alone between various flavors of high-end cabling.

I do love my Denon AVR 4306 receiver though - those guys make some very good mid-fi.

Signal directional markings

[Myria]

Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer.

That statement is quite correct. The plugs have arrows pointing in both directions.

Re:Signal directional markings

[symbolset]

How else would the signal know it was supposed to traverse the cable lengthwise, rather than crosswise?

Exact copy from Denon description for google stats

[coretx]

Denon's 1.5 meter (59 in.) ultra premium Denon Link cable was designed for the audio enthusiast. Made from high purity copper wire and high performance connection parts, the AK-DL1 will bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction from any of our Denon DVD players with the Denon Link feature. Attention to detail when building this cable was used by empoying high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding and woven jacketing to reduce vibration and to add durability. Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer. Rounded plug levers help prevent breakage

When a potential Denon victim is actually searching for a cable like this ( I still can't believe it is true )the chance that he finds slashdot visitors make them look like ehw, retards ? Is decreased.

Maybe someone should sew Denon for abuseing people's limited intellectual capability's

Re:Exact copy from Denon description for google st

[sjf]

Maybe someone should sew Denon for abuseing people's limited intellectual capability's
You can't make that a crime. At least not in the US. How else would they ever elect another president ?

Re:Free with Vista Ultimate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Twitter linking to a page on Twitter? I need to sit down for a moment after that.

Warranty? What warranty?

[KarMann]

While we're on the subject of their "attention to detail" like "empoying" that others have pointed out, I also see that if you click their "View new product warranty" link, you'll find that... it's not even listed in the products that have any warranty whatsoever! I had been thinking, "damn, if that's a $500 cable, it better either be a couple of football fields long, or have a several century warranty," but no, a crappy 1.5m and no warranty.

Confession:

[regular_gonzalez]

I actually own one of these. Unfortunately it got bent and now some of the 1s get stuck because they don't slide through the bent area as easily as the 0s :(

Re:Confession:

[MichaelSmith]

Flush it out with something loud.

Re:Confession:

[Agripa]

That is nothing. I was running a token passing protocol over one of these cables and one end pulled out allowing the token to fall out on the floor. I still have not found it.

Re:Confession:

[19061969]

I'm afraid you are very wrong. If you look, you can see that a '0' is *much* wider than a '1' (it's what we call, in technical terms, the "fat" bit) and will therefore be the bit that gets stuck when you have those bends in your cable.

But hey, it's just as well we don't have '|' and 'W' to denote bits? There would be even worse stoppages and the digital world might never have worked!

Re:Confession:

[xant]

Sucker. You clearly bought an imitation. The authentic cable has redundant transfer tubes for both 1's and 0's.

Re:Confession:

[RockWolf]

At least you don't have lots of mini-ITX boards running around your place, moving your router every 15 seconds. :)

Now I think I've seen it all...

[analog_line]

Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer.

The first ethernet cable ever with racing stripes.

Someone PLEASE tell me that this is a huge joke.

Re:Now I think I've seen it all...

[MichaelSmith]

Now I get it. The arrows prevent stray signals coming in from the side.

Re:Now I think I've seen it all...

[Mr. Moose]

Yes, you get rid of crosstalk this way.

dejavu

[PPNSteve]

[15:39:22] <&Draelen> Cheap ethernet cable: http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp#
[15:39:29] <&Draelen> Get it while it lasts
[15:40:15] <&PPN> wtf
[15:40:20] <&PPN> are they insane
[15:40:46] <&PPN> its ONLY $499.00
[15:41:12] <&PPN> and its not even gold wire.
[15:41:15] <&Draelen> its cheap in exchange for the high quality 1.5 meter cable you get!
[15:41:24] <&PPN> unhuh
[15:41:47] <&PPN> and i bet you my $0.25 one works just as good.
[15:42:17] <&PPN> prolly better since it'll meat cat6 specs
[15:42:24] <&PPN> meet*
[15:43:21] <&Pikachu> don't forget that the cable has a instruction of where to put in which end of the cable!
[15:43:44] <&Draelen> That cable above can probably meet CAT 7.3 standard
[15:43:54] <&Draelen> 7.4 if you adjust the dilithium matrix
[15:43:58] <&PPN> indeed
[15:44:04] <&Draelen> mr scotty will be ranting at you

$500 ethernet cable?

[wal9001]

While you're at it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Exact copy from Denon description for google st

[kingcool1432]

Maybe someone should sew Denon for abuseing people's limited intellectual capability's Well, thank God their nefarious scheme doesn't seem to have affected your post!

I've figured out the "exclusive difference"...

[Chmarr]

They're not wiring the cable using EIA-568...

If you go to "other pictures" and then the "inside" view, see how they're connecting the cable pairs to the connector: rather than the green pair going to pins 3 and 6 (as per normal EIA-568), they're going to pins 5 and 6.

That will actually reduce crosstalk the tiniest of smidgins (that's a technical term!).

Now, of course, it's MORE likely just a non-impeccable representation, and they ARE wiring it up using normal EIA-568... but wouldn't it be funny if that's the difference they're claiming is "all worth it". Geez... for $500, they could have just commissioned AMP or Foxconn to make a custom connector for them, no?

Re:I've figured out the "exclusive difference"...

[geekmux]

Geez... for $500, they could have just commissioned AMP or Foxconn to make a custom connector for them, no? Damn, you figured out their beta testing proof of concept. Of course, they still had to create this "exclusive" cable, because who the hell would pay $500 for an AMP Ethernet cable?

Re:I've figured out the "exclusive difference"...

[YesIAmAScript]

That can't be it. 1&2, 7&8 3&6 4&5 must be pairs. They are transmitted across as differential pairs, so they must be wired as pairs.

If you don't, you'll end up with poor noise rejection as the two wires in a pair are twisted to reject noise. It'll also mess up the impedance, which will creates echos on the wire or make it so signals don't transmit down them properly.

Re:I've figured out the "exclusive difference"...

[Chmarr]

You missed the point.

You dont HAVE to wire the pairs up as EIA-568... you can wire them up any way you want to, as long as the differential signals go down the twisted pairs.

Of course, then you're not following a ratified standard. Maybe Denon did that... maybe they didn't, and the exploded diagram is just inaccurate.

Re:I've figured out the "exclusive difference"...

[karnal]

Sounds to me like they're using a modified pinout on the connecting devices as well, right? That would be the only way they'd want to use a cable in that configuration....

But then - maybe the echos on the wire will make the digital signal sound closer to analog, which is the goal all along!!! [/sarcasm]

Reviews

[flanktwo]

Check out the Amazon reviews!

Re:Not that folks here need the info but...

[Chmarr]

Nothing wrong with sending digital audio signals over ethernet. Not really that much difference than optical. After all, both copper ethernet and fibre work just fine.

if they were sending analogue audio signals over twisted pair, well, that's a different kettle of fish, but I bet you it wouldn't be a deal killer either: differential signals work pretty well. That twisted pair junk is designed to handle 125MHz clock rates, and it seems to to just fine :)

Not sure what it would do to the low end, though, and since I'm not a audio tech, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Throw some dolbys at it, and I'm sure it would be fine.

Read the tags

[symbolset]

At the bottom of the page there are tags. They're hilarious.

Re:Read the tags

[T3Tech]

I especially like:
harry potter [huh??? wtf kind of tag is that for this]
itsjustadamneth ernetcable
auto-erotic asphixiation
But the best tag has to be:
i can not belive it is not butter

Morons

[SilverBlade2k]

Whoever buys this is a tool for empty hype and has more money then brains, apparently.

A $499 ethernet and they couldn't run spell check?

[em0te]

...Seriously...

Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Dahamma]

This is an RJ45 cable. Actually, to be precise it's an RJ45 connector with an 8-wire cable (unknown if it's even a twisted pair cable, though I'd imagine so). Actually, to be really precise it's not even officially RJ45 but why go into that...

RJ45 cables are used for the ubiquitous 100BASE-TX Ethernet, of course, but also for plenty of other applications, some of them not even digital (for example, long distance transmission of component video signals).

I'm not saying that a $500 RJ45 twisted pair cable is not absurd, just that there ARE applications where a higher quality cable would make a difference; try running a 100m 1080i (analog) component video connection over $1/ft RJ45 and see how it looks compared to something better built for the job.

That said, looking at the intended use ("Denon-Link") it seems to be multichannel 192kbps PCM audio, hence $500 for 1.5m is obviously a total waste of money.

Ok, end rant. Point is, nothing about this cable or any of its uses has the SLIGHTEST thing to do with Ethernet, but now everyone seems to think Denon is selling a cable to stream MP3s over your home LAN (yeah, a 1.5m cable would be really useful for that...) Sigh, why is it that I expect more from /. editors and readers on these types of stories!?

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[DrDitto]

I think you are wrong. It is a Category-5 twisted pair cable with RJ45 connectors.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[LS]

Apparently you are the intended market for this cable...

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Nathonix]

the signal is digital, the wire (diagrams available on the site) is wired to the TIA/EIA 568B spec (ethernet spec), and the only difference between the cheap cable and the one "better built for the job" would be the attention to detail that the manufacturer used in twisting the wires to reduce crosstalk, possibly the gauge of wire (some wires use a thinner wire to save money at the cost of interference issues), and possibly the shielding.

this is, irrevocably, a $100/ft cat5 stp cable, that only comes in one size, is wrapped in cloth, and doesn't even have an anti-snag shield over the tab.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[CodyRazor]

I saw a tutorial somewhere on how to use vga monitor cable as cat 5 cable, apparently because of the cable design you can make the cable 10 times longer or something crazy over standard cat5 cable. So if you want to transport 1080i over 100 feet cut up and splice together a vga monitor cable, it'l work better than your "pro" cable.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Dahamma]

I didn't say it wasn't a Cat5 TP cable w/ RJ45 connectors - in fact I said that is likely what it IS.

I just said it's not Ethernet. Ethernet cable can be RJ45, but RJ45 doesn't have to be Ethernet. This application has NOTHING to do with Ethernet, it's transporting PCM audio over the cable. And it's stupidly expensive. But why not make the title of the article accurate?

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[pantalanaga]

I completely agree with you. By the way, I've got a slightly used Denon ethernet cable I'm trying to sell. I've gone ahead and shaken all the stale bits out so I'm sure its good as new. $200 and its yours!

I've seemed to misplace my analog 1080i cable. Do you know where I can get one? Perhaps Denon sells one...

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Dahamma]

No, I am the opposite of the market for this cable, because I am an electrical engineer, and you are a moron.

I'm not sure how much clearer I could have been in my post that it was a rip off for $500. I was just making the admittedly somewhat pedantic point that there is nothing remotely resembling Ethernet in Denon's use of this cable, so the title was incorrect at best, and inflammatory at (the intended) worst.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[SpeedyGonz]

That said, looking at the intended use ("Denon-Link") it seems to be multichannel 192kbps PCM audio, hence $500 for 1.5m is obviously a total waste of money.

I feel compelled to call it a blatant scam, instead.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[TummyX]

Your example about running analogue 1080i over twisted pair is irrelevant.

They are not intending on having the cable used as a differential analogue audio cable where noise will have an effect.

The cable they're selling is intended for use with their digital Denon Link interface.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Dahamma]

It's not irrelevant, it's reinforcing the only point I was trying to make: RJ45 != Ethernet.

Otherwise, I actually wholeheartedly agree with the general idea that "audiophile" (ie ridiculously overpriced) cables are a pointless waste of money, analog or digital (but yes, especially digital).

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[NotmyNick]

Actually, to be really precise it's not even officially RJ45 but why go into that...

Actually, if you're going to be a pedant, you do have to go all the way. For the intents and purposes of the headline, however, the vernacular 'ethernet cable' is sufficient.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[AK Marc]

I just said it's not Ethernet. Ethernet cable can be RJ45, but RJ45 doesn't have to be Ethernet. This application has NOTHING to do with Ethernet, it's transporting PCM audio over the cable. And it's stupidly expensive. But why not make the title of the article accurate?

Will it run 100 Base-TX ethernet? If so, it is what just about everyone calls an "ethernet cable." As such, if it does indeed work for that purpose, it is an "ethernet cable." If it does, in fact, have some spec that prevents ethernet from running over it, then it isn't an "ethernet cable." From the descriptions, it is, in fact, an ethernet cable.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[Nathonix]

to be totally anal, RJ-45 (aka RJ-45s) is not intended to carry any sort of modern network traffic. the part of this cable that defines it as ethernet is the fact that it is wired to the TIA/EIA 568B spec, which was designed solely for ethernet using unshielded twisted pair cable, when wired into an 8P8C connector (there is also no such thing as an RJ45 connector, RJ45 is a wiring standard in and of itself), thereby making it an ethernet cable.

case in point, sony used an IEEE1394 connection (commonly known as firewire) on it's ps2 console, however it called the system i.Link, while still using firewire cables to transmit the data.

so all in all, they are using an ethernet cable for the transmission of digital data, which is its intended use, and all ethernet cables will work just as suitably. ethernet was not designed for one type of traffic and one type only, and it's used to carry more than just IP frames.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[zarozarozaro]

Also there are several types of ethernet signaling for audio transmission. We are all very familiar with various types of TCPIP streaming, but not everyone is aware of Cobranet, a protocol for very high quality audio over ethernet.
Still, I don't think this cable would help.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[not_anne]

With any subject, there is formal and informal terminology. Informal terminology is typically called "slang."

I'm not going to say "RJ45" to my Dad, or my customers, or to friends who aren't in the know. If I say "ethernet cable" to any of them, they will all know what I mean.

Using precise and correct language often does not help garner better communication or understanding.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[LMariachi]

Will it hold your pants up? If so, it is what just about everyone calls a "belt." Do you think the writeup's title would be more accurate as "Denon's $499 Belt"?

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Actually, to be precise it's an RJ45 connector with an 8-wire cable

If you're gonna be pedantic, at least get it right. Ethernet cables are not terminated with RJ45 connectors.

From the Wikipedia 8P8C article:

These connectors are often referred to as RJ45 plugs and jacks. This is technically incorrect because the RJ45 standard specifies both the mechanical interface and a different wiring scheme than T568A/B, which is often used for Ethernet and telephones.

So, technically, they are 8P8C connectors wired in accordance with T568A/B, connected with Category 5e (or possibly Category 6) twisted pair cabling.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[AK Marc]

It will not hold my pants up well. The cord is too thin and will cut into my skin at my waist. That's why they have belts wide. Also, there isn't a convenient fastener. I guess you could tie it, but the cables don't tie easily. So no, I don't think anyone would want to use it for a belt. However, anyone that needed an ethernet cable could use the Denon one or one sold at Best Buy with the exact same results, same clasp, same dimensions. Also, from the description, it seems that a network cable will work for the $500 application as well. So, it will work for an "ethernet cable" and an "ethernet cable" will work in its place. Sounds like they have a little more in common than an ethernet cable and a belt. But I'm sure you don't see that because you closed your mind when you decided that everyone else in the world is wrong about their usage of "ethernet cable" to describe what nearly everyone uses for a cabling to run an ethernet network.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[LMariachi]

The point is that the article title describes one possible use as if it were the primary intended use, which it is not. The thing is ridiculous and overpriced regardless, so there's no reason to misrepresent it except to stir up discussion. If it were in comments it would be considered flamebait.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[AK Marc]

If it would work in place of an ethernet cable, and an ethernet cable would work in place of it, then how is that a mischaracterization?

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[LMariachi]

Arguably a regular Ethernet cable will not work as well in place of it. An umbrella may be able to protect you against small thrown rocks, and a shield held over your head will keep you just as dry in the rain as an umbrella would. But when you go to the museum you'll notice there's no "Medieval Armor, Swords, and Umbrellas" section.

Re:Ethernet is NOT a cable!

[AK Marc]

Arguably a regular Ethernet cable will not work as well in place of it.

You have nothing to give you that indication, other than the cable costs $500 and the cat-5 cables cost $2. There is nothing in the specs of either you can point to that indicates that an ethernet cable won't work with 100% transmission.

An umbrella may be able to protect you against small thrown rocks, and a shield held over your head will keep you just as dry in the rain as an umbrella would. But when you go to the museum you'll notice there's no "Medieval Armor, Swords, and Umbrellas" section.

A shield isn't as good at keeping you dry. Why? Because the interface is not the same. With the cables, both ends are RJ-45 connectors. For the shield and the umbrella, the handles are different in a way that prevents the shield from being as easy to use. Also, the weight of the shield makes it harder to use. It may keep you dry, but it is not a good replacement for the shield. Every scrap of information available says that a regular ethernet cable will be able to fill the functions to 100% accuracy. That's not a clunky shield that is completely different being used for something its not designed for. It's two identical data cables being swapped. Identical. They are exactly the same in electrical specs and physical specs, as far as we can tell with the specs that have been shared. A shield and an umbrella have a large number of obvious differences. Not identical.

At the very least...

[Nullav]

It is a pretty shade of blue. :o

Try $550

[mako1138]

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/2/28626.html

They're treated with "quantum tunneling".

"Is the Synergistic one meter USB cable worth $550? No, it is worth twice this amount."

Sigh.

Re:Try $550

[Petrushka]

Oh dear gods on Olympus. Have you read the replies to that review? In particular, the replies to the guy that calls it out as snake oil? I'm dumbfounded.

Re:Try $550

[MrMickS]

Thank you for that link. I think I see a whole new business opportunity here. I realised that audiophiles were obsessive having worked with a couple but hadn't realised quite how gullible they were.

Re:Try $550

[dpilot]

At least they're truthful - they call themselves an "asylum."

Re:Try $550

[Workaphobia]

And all this time I hadn't realized that my digital cables were compressing my music without my ever realizing it...

Re:Try $550

[glittalogik]

Dude, wtf? Everyone knows you should be using violet. And don't forget your CODENAME TURQUOISE CD Tray Masking Kit
and Brilliant Pebbles...

Re:Try $550

[fractoid]

That sounds disturbingly like a time when I was in Harvey Norman and ran into an acquaintance who was looking for a stereo and asked me for advice. He happened to stand in front of one with a built-in CD duplicator, and the sales rep rushed over to tell us how the sound quality was much higher on a CD duplicated with this dedicated unit than if you just used a $50 CD burner on your PC...

Never, ever, ever trust a salesman. They generally don't know what they're talking about and will make up and say literally anything to make the sale.

For those of you who think it's gotta be a typo...

[The Famous Druid]

Check out http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/interconnect_cable
The have several cables that make $499 look cheap.

Zip cord....

[3seas]

the copper wire lamp cord that you can split with your hands once you get it started, is as capable a cable as any high cost audio speaker cable.

Re:Zip cord....

[flyingfsck]

Mostly yes, but if you have a really high power system (300W or more), then 15A power cord will be better, since 300W is 8 Ampere into 4 ohm speakers.

Re:Zip cord....

[Detritus]

The problem with lamp cord or zip cord is that it isn't shielded. It makes a great radio antenna. The RF can get into the final stage of the audio amplifier, get detected and amplified, resulting in very audible interference. It's the same thing that happens when you hold a GSM phone near a computer.

Denon is now officially "bad" in my books

[Pulzar]

Wow... I actually have a Denon receiver and considered them a great brand... A boneheaded product like this puts them in the same category as Monster. There's no way I'm ever going to buy or recommend another Denon product -- how can I possibly trust them?

I was looking for a generic corporate email address to write them an email, but I couldn't find one on their web site... Does anyone have one?

Re:Denon is now officially "bad" in my books

[taustin]

At the bottom of their "Contact US" page, there are "Home Audio Contacts" and "Pro Audio Contacts" links that lead to an email form.

Have fun.

This cable reviewed

[symbolset]

For hear.nl, translated to english by Google.

Apparently the reviewer liked it. I think. I have no idea what is "geluidsmodi".

Re:This cable reviewed

[vrt3]

Google translated that sentence incorrectly (I haven't checked the rest of the text). The correct translation is more or less:

"The signal transfer is excellent in all sound modes, with a clean, strong, concise bass reproduction and a spatial, in width and depth, middle and high."

Why do audiophile reviews sound like wine reviews?

They are the same, but still sound better

[baby_robots]

A recent psychological study testing the taste of wine based on price has shown that if people are told that they are drinking a more expensive wine, they get more pleasure from the experience, even though it was the same wine.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/15/america/wine.php

I imagine that the reason why people think these cables sound better is for the same reason. So, it is likely that the people who think that the cables are better will derive more pleasure from listening to music using them. The cables may actually work better, just not for any technical reason.

Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[timothy]

I thought so at first, too, but in depressing fact, that's the real price from Denon.

And it looks like you save 100 pennies if you order from Denon rather than Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM

The reviews are hilarious :)

timothy

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[user-hostile]

Thank you. Yes, the reviews are great, and the _comments_ (replies) to the reviews are even funnier!

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[timothy]

Yep -- I teared up reading some of these. This helps erase my envy of people's Denon DJ setups with matched pitch-controlled CD players :)

timothy

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Holy carp, those are hilarious. A part of me wants to beleive that they're just playing along...

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[cp.tar]

Well, it is said that it is morally unacceptable not to part the fool with his money.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[cp.tar]

A caution to people buying these: if you do not follow the "directional markings" on the cables, your music will play backwards.

This stuff is dangerous. I could get a stroke laughing so hard.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[Tubal-Cain]

The tags are great, too.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[seaturnip]

The official Denon description is not even consistent between their homepage and Amazon. Are the directional markings "for optimum signal transfer" or "to indicate correct direction for connecting cable"? They can't even keep their bullshit straight.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[GumphMaster]

Curiously though, they'll only ship this cable within the US because either:

• Only US residents are stupid enough to part with this amount of cash for common or garden variety twisted pair (which I seriously doubt), or
• The cable needs to be specially counter-wound for use in the southern or eastern hemispheres. Even a casual inspection shows that the electrons need to be up-down corrected for the south, and self-censored for the Chinese market.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[Deanalator]

w00w00 amazon is the new digg :-)

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[WGFCrafty]

The comments are great too.

M. Anderson says: Don't buy these cables. Gold and silver are not good enough. If you're a serious audophile, superconducting cuprate-perovskite ceramic materials cooled to 60 kelvin is what your after. My MP3 collection never sounded better.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[knutkracker]

Tags amazon customers have associated with this product:

• snake oil (91)
• waste of money (62)
• ripoff (61)
• unconscionable (54)
• throwing your money away (52)
• stupid (48)
• pure garbage (28)
• cheat (25)
• immoral (20)
• denon (10)
• harry potter (6)

WTF? I can't even think of a stupid reason for tagging this 'Harry Potter', let alone a serious one.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[LordVader717]

From the Amazon Customers Review:

A caution to people buying these: if you do not follow the "directional markings" on the cables, your music will play backwards. ROFL

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[Elliot_Lin]

I love the fact they offer to giftwrap it. Imagine opening one of them on your birthday all poshly giftwrapped and then you notice that it's actually just an ethernet cable with a different colour plastic coting.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[Tony Hoyle]

snake oil, ripoff, ... , immoral, denon, harry potter

I was doing fine until I got to the last one :p Now I've got tea all over my keyboard...

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[dwywit]

"Harry Potter" = moderately well-constructed fantasy, but there are some who take it seriously.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[IndustrialComplex]

WTF? I can't even think of a stupid reason for tagging this 'Harry Potter', let alone a serious one.

Because the claims of Denon with respect to this cable are, for all intents and purposes, magic.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[bckrispi]

"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow"? WTF is that supposed to mean?

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[mgblst]

I am almost 100% sure this cable was used in David Hasselhoff's Looking for Freedom concert atop the Berlin Wall, the very same show that ended communism in Europe. While listening to the Hoffenschosh's albums, I noted that Hot Shot City is particulary good.

Great to see some of the Hoffenboshcs fans weighing in.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[Constantine XVI]

My MP3 collection never sounded better. Idiot. Everyone knows the only way to listen to music is from 24/96 WAV.

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[BrianRaker]

Someone doesn't understand a joke when it hits them in the face...

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[JimFive]

"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow"? WTF is that supposed to mean?

It's a line from Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven"

"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May queen"
--
JimFive

Re:Nope, no typo, just a thinko :)

[bckrispi]

**Whhoooooshhh**

Re:Free with Vista Ultimate.

[fm6]

Dude, give it a rest.

Randi to the rescue!

[jpbelang]

James Randi: http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4

When challenged, Pear cables chickened out.

I checked. Pear cables did not go out of business.

Re:Randi to the rescue!

[geekoid]

Neither Did Sylvia Brown, and every other scam artist in the world.

However, it does prove a point.

I wonder if wire coat hanger will do just as well?

[HeavyDevelopment]

Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers: http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

Pfft! That's nothing!

[Servo]

Considering this is a recommended accessory to the $3800 DVD player they sell, I'm not surprised.

they are amazing

[speedtux]

I'm an audiophile, and I have to tell you, these cables are AMAZING. They bring out nuances in the sound that you never knew were there. Listen to a recording of the Brandenburg Concertos in the classic 1972 vinyl recording with the Berlin Philharmonica, and you'll swear you're sitting there with Christian Ludwig right in the room, hearing his every borborygmus and flatus. These cables are so subtle that they even allow you to separate the overtones from the bass notes of his snart! And the Goldberg Variations with Glenn Gould... just breathtaking. You hear every note he sings (and the piano is pretty good, too).

Usability is great, too: you'll never spend half an hour wondering which way to plug these things in, since the marking on them finally make it clear that it doesn't matter; now, why didn't anybody think of that before?

If you're an audio professional, these cables will pay for themselves in a week. And if you're a serious amateur, they'll give you an audio experience you won't soon forget.

(-; for the humor impaired)

Re:they are amazing

[Shark]

In the product description is actually says:

Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer. You see, the bits are able to look at the arrow painted on the housing and find their way *better*.

arrows to indicate direction...

[Alien Being]

Hell, I didn't even see the Indians!

Re:Not that folks here need the info but...

[p3d0]

Audio travelling over thin-ass Ethernet gauge wire has to be one of the dumbest ideas ever in the first place. Optical? fine. It is totally digital, no interference issues, no "directionality," etc. Newsflash: the audio is "totally digital" too.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Tell denon

[featheredfrog]

that if they can pass a double-blind test, James Randi may have $1million for them.

Re:Exact copy from Denon description for google st

[coretx]

English is not my native language.

Re:It's a typo

[hob42]

Since Amazon lists it for $500 as well, it seems that is not the case.

Now we know what step 2 is...

[Col Bat Guano]

Step 1. Give something away for free
Step 2. Sell Ethernet cable for $500
Step 3. Profit!!

It's OK, I suppose, but...

[mpaque]

There's always more room for improvement. One could, for example, impose a beneficial energy pattern by the proper attachment of P.W.B. Electret Ring Ties so as to establish a full Stage Five dominant energy pattern within 'space geometry'. One must take great care to apply the same pattern to electrical power interconnects as well as the audio interconnects. A P.W.B Morphic Message Foil can be applied to the Ethernet cable and the listener's forehead to ensure proper synchronization of digital cognisance.

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/product.html

(I only wish this stuff weren't real. I dread being dragged into any conversation with a True Believer audiophile.)

Re:It's OK, I suppose, but...

[SteeldrivingJon]

My favorite was the multi-thousand dollar interconnects with light beam insulation. They had a "special" light source that plugged into the cable, and presumably the light was carried around the conductors in optical fibers.

Although I doubt anyone ever cut such a cable in the middle to see if that was actually happening.

Wow... from the link you provide:

Aligning the slots in screw heads.

Align the slots in all screw heads so that the slots are parallel to the earth's surface. ALL screws - screws fastening light switches to the wall, screws fastening AC power sockets to the wall, screws fastening shelves to the wall etc. Listen to some music for a short time and then move any of the screw slots away from being parallel to the earth's surface and see if you can listen to the same music with the same pleasure !!

That's one of their free listening room tips. They also suggest putting a BLUE (very important!) piece of paper under any vases or potted plants in the listening room.

Can confirm: Since I cooked my ethernet cables...

[ThatbookwritingWheel]

...music streamed over them has a much warmer tone to it.

Definitive home networking

[Paralizer]

This works great when combined with:

• Gigabit Killer NIC ($230)
• Gigabit D-Link Xtreme N Gaming Router ($160)

This d-link review really puts it into perspective:

All the High end networking stuff you need! insane speed on both wired and lan. Youll probably be alittle in shock at this thing when you ralize that the bottleneck is on your modem... this thing can handle a lot of load and when it comes down to it you just might want to tell your ISP to speed you up!

Damn straight. It's got gigabit WAN.. G I G A B I T.. booyah. None of this slow ass 100Mbit crap for me thanks.

Now to leverage the speed of the NIC's onboard processor and the Xtreme N Gaming Router (with LED display!) you need some serious ultra premium link cable to maximize the bandwidth that is typical with high speeds this nature. We finally a cable that can do that.

Someone beat Pear Audio to it?

[Thai-Pan]

http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/patterson/6765

I have just one thing to say:

[Guppy06]

Bitch better be Cat6A.

Re:I have just one thing to say:

[Fieryphoenix]

Heck with that. At that price it better be Cat42z, and transmit 40 GLibrariesofCongress/s.

Yeah, but CAT-6 is still cheaper

[davidwr]

"Hi-fi" ethernet cables only make sense if you are trying to exceed the design limits.

If you think about it, CAT-6 is just "hi-fi" cat-5e, cat-5e is just "hi-fi" cat5, cat-5 is just hi-fi cat-3, and cat-3 is just hi-fi untwisted wire of the same gauge.

Cat3 will do 10mbps as good as CAT-6 over a few meters and you can probably squeeze 100mbps over very short lengths, but why bother, with CAT-5e and -6 being so cheap.

empoying?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

You think at $500 a pop, Denon could afford a copy editor - or at least a spellchecker! The tortured grammar of the non-statement about design is also a howler.

Re:empoying?

[anomaly256]

What's even funnier than 'empoying', is the context in which they use it: "Attention to detail when building this cable was used by empoying high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding and woven jacketing to reduce vibration and to add durability." Great attention to detail guys!

Re:empoying?

[Anonymous Coward]

The price is obviously a typo as well. It should read $4.99.

Re:empoying?

[billcopc]

That's actually a feature! It's audiophile-talk for "This shit is so advanced you can't even comprehend its futuristic grammar".

Seriously, cable vendors and cable fetishists need to be buried alive under a truckload of Monster interconnects. If you buy a cable and you can hear a difference with the rest, it's because you've got a bad cable. Audio doesn't go anywhere close to the high frequencies that are affected by line capacitance and the so-called skin-effect. As long as they've got enough bulk to support the current being driven, everything else is virtually identical.

Re:empoying?

[pizpot]

"...everything else is virtually identical."

Me and my mate both bought similar price/quality/brand stereos. I spend $9k and got a sub too, and 50 cds. He spent $11k and got no sub too, and no cds. But he did get unbendable cables and interconnects that make the sound harsh. Two years later, I am into the music, and his just sits there collecting dust. monocable.com all the way. I litterally spent only $100 on cables, and ended up with 6 foot, 12 foot, and 25 foot cables for depending on if the room is set up for the wife, movie night, or listening.

Re:empoying?

[Pr0Hak]

i think you mean monoprice.com . I've also had good luck with cablesforless.com

Re:empoying?

[billcopc]

Harsh sound ? See now that's the one thing I never understood... how can a cable make the sound "harsher" ? I could see a poor (wrong gauge) cable affecting low frequencies, but what I call "harshness" is usually caused by hard-surfaced tweeters (as opposed to silk or paper cones).

The thing one must understand regarding "high end" stereo equipment, is the marketing aspect of it all. Once you pass a certain threshold, say $600 per component (or $3000 for a 5.1 system with receiver/amp), you step into the audiophile reality distortion field. Crossing that line means you've got money to burn, which is why audiophile gear starts out cheap and stretches to infinity dollars.

The reason your buddy's $11k stereo sounded like ass, is because it puts him in the "rich sucker" bracket. The components may have been selected by the sales person or manufacturer to sound a little off, solely to create demand for their $15k system. The term "upgrade" is heard every day in audio shops around the globe, and such upgrades tend to happen in small, granular steps. That's why speaker vendors don't have just one "perfect" set, they have a long list of products carefully plotted from cheap to obscene, and many shops will offer a trade-in program to help you climb that money ladder. It's all designed to part fools with their money while convincing them otherwise.

Anecdote: a while back I had a stereophile chum, but unfortunately he was dumber than dirt so our convos were rather bland, but he spent every last penny of his on stereo equipment, which fascinated me from a psychological perspective. I never actually liked his system, partly because his "listening room" was a small apartment living room...

Anyway, he started out small, spending about $300 on each speaker and $800 on the receiver. A few months later he had replaced his fronts with a more exotic pair, and continued over the following weeks to replace his other speakers until he had a full matching set. A year later, he had replaced his entire kit twice more, having sold his car to afford a $12000 system, always the same brand as his first cheap kit. Well it should come as no surprise that it sounded like ass to me. He still had sharp highs and horrible staging. Even he conceded there were improvements to be made, to come when his finances allowed it.

Over the course of three years, he probably spent close to $25k on audio gear, since he was selling the used gear at half-price or less. I then used my powers of geekiness to convince him to sell his last heap of junk to some naive schmuck, and took him shopping - online, that is. Shipping was a bitch, but all-told I had him spend about $7k on an assortment of drivers, enclosures, crossover components, soundproofing and related materials, and of course a fierce amp and receiver. I brought over my measuring equipment and taught him how to build speakers (to the best of his limited IQ). He was now free to tweak them according to his personal preferences.

He spent the next few months experimenting with different cones, crossover freqs, enclosure stuffing and a few other tricks I had shown him. Less than a year later, he had settled on his preferred setup, built a second kit out of the leftovers that wasn't half bad. I added some final touches, he sold off the extra system for $3k. Most importantly, he was absolutely in love with his home-made hi-fi sound and it only cost him about $4500 + a lot of fun time playing with it.

The lessons he learned can be applied to any speakers, much like I've been doing forever. Sometimes a commercial speaker might sound 95% good, but have a few annoying flaws. With a bit of elbow grease and know-how, those flaws can often be addressed with an afternoon and just a few bucks.

Re:empoying?

[pizpot]

yes I did mean to type monoprice.com, very nice company. shipping is fast and well done.

Re:empoying?

[pizpot]

I got MA-GS10, PW2200 sub, NAD amp, Adcom. He got B+W805, Bryston, Adcom.

Cheers!

Re:empoying?

[danomac]

The components may have been selected by the sales person or manufacturer to sound a little off, solely to create demand for their $15k system.

Not only that, but when looking for bookshelf speakers for my living room, one of the stores I visited had all the bookshelfs hooked up to one amplifier that had all of it's eq settings and bass boost set to max. It sounded terrible compared to their $3000 set of speakers which had the same model amplifier set normally (flat.)

I've noticed this while test driving cars too - the dealers seem to crank all settings on the stock unit so it supposedly sounds better.

I settled for two sets of smaller bookshelf speakers with a power-matched center speaker and subwoofer. Cost? ~$1000. My amplifier cost me more (around $1400) but it wasn't because of the sound quality, I needed something to switch 9 inputs. If you have a bunch of sources the price goes up exponentially.

Re:empoying?

[Crizp]

I got a $40 T-amp and $250 Eltax Monitor 3 speakers (price converted from NOK to current USD rate). I've heard worse sound from equipment worth ten times as much.

Cheers.

Re:empoying?

[sjames]

Audiophiles are amazing. They're the only group I can think of that make Scientology, ID true believers AND flat earthers look like rationalists.

Check out the the ultimate in audioweenie gear. Magic rocks you tape to your cables, magic clocks, and "audio tuneups" transmitted through your phone!

I'll bet if I tape those magic rocks to the super ethernet cable and put that clock on top of my server, I can probably get a 20 jillion teraquad internet connection over the POTS line.

Re:empoying?

[billcopc]

Bookmarked, that site is so hilarious I almost want to email them to get a "Haha you gullible fool" response. Realhamster anyone ?

Re:empoying?

[r_jensen11]

The thing one must understand regarding "high end" stereo equipment, is the marketing aspect of it all. Once you pass a certain threshold, say $600 per component (or $3000 for a 5.1 system with receiver/amp), you step into the audiophile reality distortion field. Crossing that line means you've got money to burn, which is why audiophile gear starts out cheap and stretches to infinity dollars.

The reason your buddy's $11k stereo sounded like ass, is because it puts him in the "rich sucker" bracket. The components may have been selected by the sales person or manufacturer to sound a little off, solely to create demand for their $15k system. The term "upgrade" is heard every day in audio shops around the globe, and such upgrades tend to happen in small, granular steps. That's why speaker vendors don't have just one "perfect" set, they have a long list of products carefully plotted from cheap to obscene, and many shops will offer a trade-in program to help you climb that money ladder. It's all designed to part fools with their money while convincing them otherwise. This sounds strikingly similar to the strategy employed by the "Church" of Scientology....

Re:empoying?

[syousef]

Wow! Just wow!

The most I ever spent on speakers was $400 and I considered that a rip off. They were creative 4.1 when the consumer sound cards first went multi-channel back in the 90s.

I have 3 pairs of Logitech X-530s. I paid between AUD68 and 79 for each pair. If I wanted to go nuts I'd splurge on X-540s. I call them the wedding speakers. We used them for the ceremony at our wedding because they are loud and clear. We also used them at a friend's wedding where our gift to them was doing the photography semi-professionally. Can I make them buzz or sound horrible? Yes but they have to be up VERY loud or I have to tweak the bass so that it sounds awful anyway.

Each to their own but I'd rather spend my money on things other than audiovisual crud these days when the "cheap" solution is so good.

Re:empoying?

[norminator]

I would like to think that... but so far, the "empoying" typo has been fixed, but the price has not...

Re:empoying?

[Hatta]

You know, a stereo switchbox is trivial to build. I guess you can't switch them with a remote, but if you just want a couple dozen inputs you can make it yourself for cheap.

Re:empoying?

[danomac]

Yeah, I thought of that too. However, being able to remotely switch it is just too damn convenient!

Re:empoying?

[billcopc]

You're right on both counts. The Creative 4.1s were overpriced garbage, and the Logitech X-530s are budget wonders. Like you said: loud, pretty decent sound and cheap as dirt.

I still do much of my work on an old set of Altec Lansing ACS54's. The sub is poop, so I have a custom sub and crossover, but the rest of it goes through those cheap little gaming speakers. They're phenomenal! I mean, my Alesis monitors are nicer, but considering the Alesis cost 10x as much as the Altecs, that's to be expected.

There are good deals at all price points, the hard part is finding them.

Re:empoying?

[ultranova]

This sounds strikingly similar to the strategy employed by the "Church" of Scientology....

Or various software vendors, or processor manufacturers - remember the 486SX ? A 486DX with an intentionally crippled FPU unit ? For that matter, I heard that NVIDIA does this too: sells the same cards under different model names, with the only difference being the modelr marking in the card's BIOS, which cues the driver to enable/disable features.

DIY...

[Capeman]

Do it yourself (don't pirate them?), they even show you how to build this $499 cable...

Holy gravy on a potato!

[Fantastic Lad]

I'd heard of this phenomenon before, but didn't really take it too seriously.

So I took a wander over to the site you linked and discovered the following item description for one of their most expensive cables, (and this isn't even for signal balanced cable pairs, which actually do prevent the causing of inductance-based interference in surrounding cables. What's being sold here are just garden variety audio wires. Made of gold.)

Details:
Golden Reference is the latest evolutionary interconnect design by George Cardas. It features Cardas patented Golden Section, multi-gauge stranding in a symmetrical, helical tri-axial design. Thin wall, Teflon® air tubes are used as dielectric and provide air suspension for the conductors. Cardas patented, Constant-Q construction places the smallest of the Golden Ratio strands at the center of the conductor to reduce stored energy and conductor resonance. Cable resonance is further reduced with controlled propagation, Crossfield construction, matching conductor to dielectric characteristics with carefully computed strand layering. Multi-layer shielding and cross layered conductors reduce EMI and RFI to a new low. All conductors are individually coated to insulate and prevent oxidation. Golden Reference is a perfectly neutral reference cable. It sounds the same at any length, between any component, at any originating or terminating impedance. Golden Reference is perfectly symmetrical and non-directional. Like all Cardas cables, Golden Reference is individually inspected, and hand terminated using Rhodium plated connectors and Cardas formulated Quad Eutectic solder, for a lifetime of listening pleasure.

Wow! I got scared just reading that. They sure know how to make you feel insecure about your audio signal! --The price for security in plugs and wires? $4358 for twenty feet of cable! I bet you could sell some of these around the White House. (Just had to get a political dig in.)

I am stunned. I am clearly in the wrong business. I should be selling wires to rubes. Of course, I can't imagine that would do much for one's self esteem. George Cardas either doesn't sleep well at night, or he can talk up a real shit-storm when you challenge him on his ridiculous product line. . !

-FL

Re:Holy gravy on a potato!

[mgblst]

Don't worry, fortunately there are not that many stupid people willing to fall for this crap. At least, not that many stupid people with enough money.

Belden sells excellent stuff

[Sycraft-fu]

They sell, well, pretty much any cable, but among them is excellent STP. If you need to run some network cables in a sub par environment (say in the same conduit with high current mains cables) it does wonders. You still aren't going to get more distance, of course, but it can deal with noisy environment quite well. It's also great if you are doing video over twisted pair. For short distances, UTP is fine, works as well as coax when you have a good balun. However for longer distances, especially for HD, you find that the signal starts to get unacceptably noisy. Well, if you don't want to run coax (or simply can't) STP will often do as good a job even at a few hundred metres.

Electricity flows from + to -

[davidwr]

Since electronics diagrams show electricity "flowing" from positive to negative, but in reality the electrons go the other way, won't the arrows just be confusing?

Of course, real audiophiles will insist on using only highly-trained electrons that know how to read and have at least a technical degree in electronics.

Like many companies

[Sycraft-fu]

They make good stuff, but they also make stuff to take money from the uneducated. Denon makes professional gear as well as consumer and it's quite solid. Basically, just make sure you understand what you are paying for. Don't buy something that's $500 if you can't figure out why it is $500.

For a HT receiver though, check out Yamaha. I've been really happy with their stuff. Nice features, reasonable price and a really nice amp. Some receivers are a little anemic on their amps, or rather on their power supplies, and you discover that despite theoretically having more than plenty of power they can distort on big hits. The Yamahas I've used handle what they claim very well and are what a good amp should be: Neutral and uncolouring. They reproduce the sound that's asked of them and don't muck with it (the receivers have a DSP if you wish to muck with the sound).

Belden

[Sycraft-fu]

When I want bulk cable, that's who I buy. A little on the expensive side but top notch construction and you can get basically anything you want. They have a massive catalog of different kinds of cable for any sort of need. Just go to the site and search around for what you want. I can just about guarantee they make it.

Denon

[blind biker]

Denon's customers are relatively discerning audiophiles, who usually get (and expect) rather good value for their money. This scam will not go unnoticed, and it will cause irreparable damage to Denon's brand. Companies spend a lot on brand value, especially in the Hi-Fi marketplace. Well, Denon has just tossed it down the loo and I don't see how they can recover it.

A STP cable for $500? Not even Monster Cable pulls this sort of crap.

I bought this cable. Read my review.

[AmigaHeretic]

I have to say after buying this cable for $499 + $29.99 shipping.

Let me say, first off, if you buy this cable like I did, always make sure to buy the "Extended Service Plan". Trust me on an investment like this. You never know when the metal inside that cable will just wear out and need to be replaced. Always buy Service Plans on your cables.

Ok as for the quality. Well I have to be hones, I really couldn't hear any differnce in the 0's that came throught the cable, but trust me when I tell you about the 1's... On my, the 1's... well, it's just a WHOLE new experince in sound. So really it's probably only worth about $250.

But if you're like me and you prefer 1's over those useless 0's anyway, then this cable is a great bargin!

No strain relief, shielding not connected!

[Anonymous Coward]

Judging from the drawing in the "manual":

http://www.usa.denon.com/AK-DL1Lit.pdf

there are at least three major shortcomings with this cable:

1) there is no strain relief that will prevent the force from pulling on the cable from stressing individual wires. These days, even the cheapest patch cables are injection molded, which virtually insures that none of wires are torn out of the crimp connection.

2) The wire mesh shielding of the cable is not connected to the metal shield surrounding the plug. This will increase the bit-error rate in noisy environments.

3) the little plastic lever that needs to be pressed to release the plug from the socket is not prevented from tearing off when the cable is disentagled by a little hood that covers its tip.

5 foot cables of decent quality that do not have the three flaws described above are less than $1 wholesale.

If Denon "engineers" (or more probably their guy that sources stuff on the cheap from chinese manufacturers promising to deliver overnight in quantities of 50) deliver such a shoddy quality on the cable, what kind of corners did they cut in the electronic design of their products?

Can I get the list of people who bought these?

[istartedi]

I have some solar powered clothes dryers I'd like to sell them for $100, and instant breast enlargers for $50.

Read the Amazon reviews, they're hilarious

[John Jorsett]

It gets me closer to the Lord:

If I could use a rusty boxcutter to carve a new orifice in my body that's compatible with this link cable, I would already be doing it. I can just imagine the pure musical goodness that would flow through this cable into the wound and fill me completely -- like white, holy light. Holding this cable in my hands actually makes me feel that much closer to the Lord Jesus Christ. I only make $6.25/hr at Jack In The Box, but I saved up for three months so I could have this cable. It sits in a shrine I constructed next to my futon in Mother's basement.

I only gave it four stars in my review because I can't find music that is worthy enough to flow through this utterly perfect interconnect.

Disappointing quality

I was disappointed. I consider myself an audiophile - I regularly spend over $1000 on cables to get the ultimate sound. I keep my music-listening room in a Faraday cage to prevent any interference that could alter my music-listening experience. Sending any signal down ordinary copper can degrade the signal considerably. While ordinary listeners might not notice, to somebody with even a rudimentary knowledge of sound, the artifacts are glaring. Denon should have used silver wiring (hermetically sealed inside the rubber sheath to prevent any tarnishing, of course), which has a significantly higher conductivity than copper. Furthermore, Denon needs to treat the wires they use in the cable with a polarity inductor to ensure minimal phase variance.

Needless to say, I returned the cable and wrote an angry letter to the so-called engineers at Denon.

this was posted to slickdeals at least 3 days ago

[TheGratefulNet]

and it was funny as hell then, when I first saw it.

a day later, the page was pulled (from sd). I guess the mods couldn't quite tell that it was meant as a joke.

too bad denon doesn't INTEND it as a joke.

btw, don't forget your $500 'hospital grade power cord'. its a matched set, afterall.

This is the closest I could think of...

[zalas]

These pictures are the closest I could think of off the top of my head and it comes in your choice of black or white. Enjoy... <_<;

Re:This is the closest I could think of...

[spazdor]

Henry Ford? Is that you?

(both links go to 'black' ;)

Re:A fool and his money

[therufus]

If you had one of these cables in question, I'm sure you could post a comment next year and still get first post. The cable transmits bits so fast, they actually go back in time.

$500 cable = first post all the time :)

There's a sucker born every minute

[mlwmohawk]

Selling *nothing* to people has a long illustrious history. Bottled water comes to mind.

Selling these cables is no better or worse than selling bottled water, 89 octane gas at 1/2 the difference between 87 and 93 instead of 1/3, "Unlimited" broadband with limits, and so on.

I'm sorry, if you are STUPID, and we are talking about "military grade stupid" here, then you deserve to lose every penny. This isn't convincing someone to send their mortgage check to your P.O. box. You have to LOOK for this, it is not the default in searching. A neophite using google would not find these.

You have to be knowlegable enough to find obscure products AND be stupid enough to buy these. Let's call it darwinian capitalism, i.e. "a fool and his money are soon parted."

Re:There's a sucker born every minute

[Splab]

Well bottled water does actually have a need. In quite a lot of the world the water in taps is undrinkable.

Re:There's a sucker born every minute

[mlwmohawk]

Well bottled water does actually have a need. In quite a lot of the world the water in taps is undrinkable.

Fair enough, but I was referring to poland springs, Evian, and the rest taking up space in every store.

Re:There's a sucker born every minute

[geekoid]

So they ahve money to buy bottled water, but not enough to fix the system?

In the US, the taps are far better then anything in a bottle.

hmm who has taps, and bad water?

Audiophile-grade wall outlet covers

[Animats]

Machina Dynamica's Tru-Tone Duplex Cover. Yes, an audiophile-grade wall outlet cover plate. $30.

Machina Dynamica's Tru-Tone Duplex Cover is a special audiophile-grade cover for all duplex wall outlets; they are intended to replace all types of duplex covers - steel, plastic, wood, etc. - in the listening room -- including non-audio outlets and unused outlets. One or two Tru-Tone Covers can make a significant improvement, however we suggest a baseline of 3-4 Duplex Covers in the room for best results. Tru-Tone Duplex Outlet Covers produce a remarkable degree of focus, detail and presence.

The thing appears to be an absolutely standard plastic cover plate. This isn't about replacing the receptacle, which might be of some value if it was badly worn and causing voltage drops under load. It's just the plastic cover plate.

Re:Audiophile-grade wall outlet covers

[David Gerard]

Machina Dynamica make the finest snake oil in the universe. Brilliant pebbles. Blue construction paper.

This can't be for real. Can it?

No respect for delusion

[n9hmg]

Look, they've already got these fools fervently pretending that gold-plated connectors and "oxygen-free" cables make a difference. Audiophiletards are just looking for something to spend money on, something they can say they've got that somebody else doesn't.
I know people who believe wearing a copper bracelet can mitigate arthritis, or a magnet on their fuel line will give them better mileage. Why not take advantage of their lack of intelligence and tell the fools that there can be a special quality to the ones and zeros... their ones can be just a little more "on", and their zeros just a little more "off" for that extra "punch".

I'm just glad to see I'm not the only person who refuses to respect their delusions.

Re:Not that folks here need the info but...

[rAiNsT0rm]

totally digital on a medium which is very susceptible to interference is just silly. You can shield the cable all you want, but the crimped ends can't be shielded and are nearest the audio device and the receiver port where they can still pick up interference.

Plus, Ethernet isn't really the best or most secure connection for db loss.

eh, I guess if suckers have kept companies like Monster in business so long, Denon will sell some of these no matter what.

Re:Someone will ask for it

[kesuki]

but that's affordable! that stuff is rated for slightly better than cat6 speeds, and only 50 cents a foot, but not quite cat 6a which generally runs about $1 a foot (a little more, not much though)

ironic you called cat 6 cable 'cat5' the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable clears up the difference (just the 'rated' mhz of the cable) although, the only real reason to buy cat6a is for 10 Gbit ethernet. cat 5 cable was usually unsuitable for gigabit ethernet which was why cat5e came along , and then they went to cat 6 to make gigabit ethernet practical for long hauls.

anyways, if you're going to rip people off selling a very short ethernet cable (with directional arrows LOL that is a joke in and of itself.) at least make it cat 6a so they can run 10 gigabit ethernet..

BTW I'm still using a vintage 4 channel Dolby surround stereo that my folks got on clearance when all the new 5 channel dolby pro logic units came on the market. there is Nothing Wrong with the unit, i have even put DVD audio through it, and it still sounds just fine, in fact, it sounds better to me, because dolby 5 and dolby 5.1 systems make 'voices' extremely hard to hear over sound effects, when a dvd player down mixes to stereo, then the stereo signal is up mixed to dolby surround the sound effects are quieter than with a true 5.1 sound system...

the reason they made the sound effects so loud was so that people could hear the speakers behind them, the critical flaw of the dolby 4 speaker systems was the rear level was almost unrecognizable from the front channels (even when you maxed the rear level volume) making people wonder what they paid for...

but the main reason i use the stereo, is because it has a load of audio and video channels, and has a remote, so i can switch from one sound/video feed to another quickly, and without having to get up.

Surely a typo.

[Bitsy Boffin]

Surely this has to be a simple mistake, somebody must have typed in 499 instead of 4.99. Who in thier right mind would think otherwise.

Poetic Justice

[PhearoX]

If I ever see one of these in use, I will make it a point to snap the plastic tabs off.

Is that Cat-5e zip cord...?

[Rui del-Negro]

I doubt it'll work very well for Ethernet, though. :-)

is there a study out there on this kind of thing?

[jeffomatic]

Does anybody know if anything reasonably robust has been written about audiophilia as a kind of rich man's insanity? I would love to read it.

Now of course it's true that this kind of dehydrated-water-selling occurs all the time, but I have to admit that I'm continually fascinated by the maturity of audiophile marketing and the kind of self-styled sophistication of the whole audiophile scene. So much about it seems interesting to me: the way periodicals and other community media are used to collectively reassure the sales pitch, the way science is used to flatter the egos of the consumer, how it is truly difficult to know the difference between science and pseudoscience (if not basically impossible in the most essential sense), and the kind of placebo effect (e.g. these 128k MP3s TOTALLY sound better!) that seems really to come about when somebody is a True Believer.

If I had to concoct a theory off the top of my head, it would be that audiophilia works basically in the same way as a cult religion, only one that's stripped of all the traditional meaning-of-life accoutrements, and instead is extraordinarily science/rationality-driven. It's imagined as purely a practical consumer activity but is in fact so much more. And I wonder if this is merely the logical extreme of the way all consumer activity and/or commodity fetishism occurs, to a greater or lesser degree.

Some people have money to burn.

[Cruciform]

Any time you see insanity like this, just remember:

There are people out there that will spend 10,000 dollars on a purse that looks like it was dipped in wood glue and glitter.

Oddly enough if you take something that's not worth much and give it a slight bump in price, nobody will buy it. But if you give it a HUGE bump in price, then it's a status symbol.

copper?

[CaptainNerdCave]

$499 and they using copper?

Looking at the Amazon listing for this.

[Chas]

$510 for the cable.

And here's all the tags associated with it:

snake oil
waste of money
ripoff
unconscionable
stupid
throwing your money away
pure garbage
cheat
immoral
denon
harry potter
fraud
auto-erotic asphixiation
internet
itsjustadamnethernetcable
not good
overpriced
pt barnum
pure lunacy
shameful
slashdot
snakeoil
utter stupidity of monumental scale

And the reviews are just hilarious.

Needless to say, anyone stupid enough to buy one of these needs to be shot on general principles, not to mention preventing such stupidity from being disseminated into the gene pool.

I have it on good authority...

[PottedMeat]

that Chuck Norris blesses each of these cables.

PM

Bah, just buy the shielded stuff then.

[Chas]

Wow. $3-4 for UTP, and $5-7 for the same length of STP.

not necessarily a total scam...

[dirtyhippie]

Latency is very important in audio work, obviously. It is possible that these cables are designed for such situations, and the applications using them are built on protocols where losing a packet means actual lost data and quality (read: UDP vs. TCP). Just making the cable short probably does most of the work here, but it's possible that this is only 90-95%, not 100%, scam.

Re:not necessarily a total scam...

[tom's a-cold]

I use a 20M run of the cheapest of the cheap cable on our home network. I've never seen anything but 0&% packet loss from it. Ping time over wireless, through the wireless router/switch, down the 20M of cable to the DSL modem and back is 0.2 ms. That's UDP over very cheap equipment. A constant latency of this much is irrelevant for any audio purpose, though a phase difference between channels of this much would matter. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Anyway, it's trivial to set up and test, but if you're still fearful of packet loss, you can always buffer the audio stream.

A more relevant calculation is derived from the well-understood principle that the conditional probability of a person being an abject wanker given that they are an audiophile is very near one.

Scam.

Re:not necessarily a total scam...

[taustin]

It's just another speaker cable scam, based on the fact that audiophiles are idiots. Tests have been conducted to demonstrate that most audiophiles cannot tell the difference between Monster cables and coat hanger wire.

On the other hand, fMRI scans by Caltech showed that people who were given samples of the same wine physically enjoyed it more when they thought it cost more.

There is little reason to believe that humanity will survive much longer.

Missing the point

[NotmyNick]

It doesn't matter what the cable is for. It is what it is. And that is an ethernet cable with fancy proprietary strain-reliefs on the ends. Look at the picture. Look at a piece of Cat-5/6. They're electrically identical.

Umm...

[T3Tech]

Me would think a Fiber cable would be considerably cheaper and ultimately provide a cleaner digital signal to boot. Not to mention that fiber doesn't have the issues of being affected by interference like copper is.

Re:Umm...

[myowntrueself]

Me would think a Fiber cable would be considerably cheaper and ultimately provide a cleaner digital signal to boot. Not to mention that fiber doesn't have the issues of being affected by interference like copper is.

Rubbish.

The laser which is used to illuminate the fiber optic cable can interfere with the signal.

You will find that video signal sent down fiber optic cable will often have a slightly reddish tinge to it.

Another beauty - $9,000 per metre for power cables

[The Famous Druid]

From the sales-spiel for this $898 2m power cable... http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/2409

From TFA:
> They create a huge soundstage that is focused, detailed and very natural. The sound of the Silent Source cables far exceeds their moderate price. They easily beat cables costing 10 to 20 times more.


So, their 'moderately priced' ($449/m) power cable is as good as others costing 20 times as much???

If this is to believed, there are people out there charging $18,000 for a 2 metre cable to connect your hi-fi to the wall-plug. Please, please, someone tell me it isn't so.

So many "audiophiles" are just idiots with money

[DaveCBio]

It doesn't take long to find audiophile scams all over the net. From markers that you are supposed to write on component cases with to lifts that keep the cables off the floor to exotic wood replacement knobs. The sad thing is that just like spammers only a few morons have to fall for these tricks for them to make money.

Charging more

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Scroll down to
"Today's episode: Hey, I only wanted to charge you less!"
in
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio/browse_thread/thread/45086470ed1381d3/c42f3a26781cbae9?lnk=st&q=%22dick+pierce%22+audio+neutral+territory#c42f3a26781cbae9

His customers were outright snotty until he began charging as much as his competitors, after which they started calling local radio stations to endorse him. For the same work.

Re:Charging more

[driftingwalrus]

Thanks for posting that! I read the whole thing, and it is hilarious. I love it.

False advertising?

[tygt]

Isn't it false advertising to claim a benefit where none exists?

Obligatory Penny Arcade

[Khakionion]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/11/25/ Goddamn Martians!

You should work for Denon's marketing department

[Rui del-Negro]

Yes, because, as everyone knows, network latency is caused by using long cables. Kinks slow down the electricity, too.

[sarcastic mode off]

It takes approximately three millionths of a second for an electric signal to travel across a 100-metre cable. Network cables are usually kept short to minimise interference and signal loss, not for any reason related to latency. Light speed ought to be be fast enough for anyone.

FTC?

[flyingfsck]

This should be sent to the FTC for a fraud investigation.

Re:So many "audiophiles" are just idiots with mone

[TheNarrator]

The problem with audio is some multi-millionaire can't believe that he can't spend more than $2000 for a home audio setup even if he gets the absolute top of the line stuff. It's such a let down for them that they can't have stuff that's better than the average middle class audio nerd so scammers find a way to charge them more.

Not Ethernet

[pete-classic]

This cable is not intended to carry Ethernet. It's made for Denon's proprietary low-voltage differential LPCM interconnect. More like S/PDIF than Ethernet. Not everything with an RJ-45 is Ethernet.

Having said that, I can't imagine this is any better than any other cable that meets their spec for this interconnect.

-Peter

Re:Not Ethernet

[b1t r0t]

This cable is not intended to carry Ethernet. It's made for Denon's proprietary low-voltage differential LPCM interconnect. More like S/PDIF than Ethernet. Not everything with an RJ-45 is Ethernet.

In that case, it's worse than if was for Ethernet. What the hell are they doing using a crappy connector like RJ-45 for something like that?

They should be using optical anyhow, but they probably would say that "conversion losses" from translating digital information from electrons to photons and back would somehow be bad for the precious fragile audio.

Amateurs

[WalkingWounded]

5-foot power cable for $6,708.

Re:Free with Vista Ultimate.

[Bloater]

Don't forget "RAM Doubling driver" - $49

Oscilloscope-schmoscilloscope

[Kickasso]

Ha! I've got my golden ears, I don't need your fancy-schmancy science!

Must ignore overhead too..

[Piranhaa]

So I emailed Denon about these great quality cables. When I get a reply, we will officially know if these cables do, in fact, not suffer from the 3-4% overhead cause by the overhead suffered in cheaper cables.

It's gotta be a criminally irrisponsible con.

[Anonymous Coward]

As an electrical engineer - these monster speaker cables get my dander up. Seriously - Who believes that the way you weave your copper strands makes an audible difference?!?!?!

Now - consider this..... How in the hell does a UTP cable (apparently now with additional ungrounded shielding!) can make ANY difference to a digital signal? IT'S FREAKING DIGITAL you COCK!

The error correction systems would weed out any badness - that is what you paid for!

Seriously - This would be the con of the century...

Use a (good quality) CAT-6 cable...

Re:Free with Vista Ultimate.

[driftingwalrus]

You know, the funny thing is that that is real! There actually was software for DOS to increase your RAM, typically they just implemented a swapfile and compressed some stuff.

Clever marketing

[Alain Williams]

So the catalogue contains some audio enthusiast ethernet cables at $499, just next to the same thing for the audio appreciator at $100.

So what do you think does through the typical audio mornon's mind when he views the two catalogue entries:

Gee I wish that I could afford the real cables, but the wife would kill me. I suppose that I could economise and buy the cheaper cable -- I hope that it won't ruin my setup as the $4 cable on the other page surely would.

So by putting something outrageously expensive up for sale they can convince idiots to buy stuff that is only stupidly expensive.

Dollar/pound rate

[Alain Williams]

Gosh - I hadn't realised that the dollar had fallen that far recently!

Take a look at the picture

[Zygamorph]

According to the copy its available in grey, purple and tan. How come the picture is robin's egg blue?

A bit like speaker cables...

[Gordonjcp]

Many many years ago I helped someone set up a double-blind test for speaker cables. It turned out that in fact *one* set of cables far outshone the others, according to the golden-eared audiophiles. Apparently they had far cleaner bass and crisper trebles, without shrill intermodulation distortion on peaks. The "victims" really did agree that these cables *definitely* sounded better - I personally couldn't tell the difference. One of the audiophiles offered to buy them on the spot.

I got a row from my Mum though, because now the extension lead for the lawnmower was too short.

A clue to the huge markup from their website

[larske]

Obviously they have mastered the handicraft of empoyment (directly from the website):"empoying high quality insulation". I can't find a patent for this so it must be protected by trade secret. Hmmm, to empoy something, I wonder how one does that? By using the cable to play Poy Poy for a very long time?

Just maybe the cost *is* justified

[Anonymous Coward]

"Made from high purity copper wire and high performance connection parts, the AK-DL1 will bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction from any of our Denon DVD players with the Denon Link feature. Attention to detail when building this cable was used by empoying high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding and woven jacketing to reduce vibration and to add durability"

So at Frys I can buy a similar cable for less than 1/10th of that. But the quality...

I know everyone will ignore this and nobody will ever read this comment (AC, -1 or 0), but I would very much like to see a chemical analysis or electical analysis of the Denon cable vs the Frys cable.

My money is on "high purity copper" meaning that it is solid core (not stranded, which is better for LANs as it bends better) because that is better for audio and for it to be of a higher grade copper. To paraphrase a well known quote, "some copper is more equal than others."

Now maybe all of the /.'s here don't care for this special cable because the difference it makes doesn't matter to them... but just as some people spend huge amounts of money buying a Rolls Royce (when a toyota corolla will probably do just as well), so some people will prefer to buy expensive cables that have been made better and are made from higher quality materials.

Re:Just maybe the cost *is* justified

[Is0m0rph]

OK get back to your PR job at Denon and stop posting anonymously.

Re:Just maybe the cost *is* justified

[gujo-odori]

I can buy a solid-core cable at Fry's, too. For probably a lot less than 1/10 the price. There's nothing that special about solid wire. As for stranded cable being better for LANs because it's more flexible, well, that would sure make it better for most people's AV setups, too. The reason stranded wire is better for desktop use (rather than LAN per se, since solid is fine for long straight runs) is that it often has to go around tight corners, just like you might find on a home theater setup. Stranded is better in those kinds of applications because solid is more likely to get metal fatigue from bending, and then break.

I agree with the other poster who says you're astroturfing for Denon (or you could just be dumb, I suppose). If you can run GigE over stranded wire and get as close to wire speed as TCP/IP and the quality of your NIC will allow, you're not going to get any noticeable benefit out of it. I'd be surprised if you could even get a *measurable* benefit. Even if you could, it would certainly be nothing you could hear. The whole claim is ridiculous in the context of digital audio. The whole point of digital is that it delivers a perfect copy to the other end. You can get just as good of a copy delivered to the other end over a decent quality regular Ethernet cable as you can over that thing. And because a regular cable doesn't have that stupid woven covering, it'll be a lot easier to clean.

Plus, of course, a regular cable gives you the benefit of being able to impress your friends because you weren't stupid enough to spend 500 bucks on a cable when a ten dollar cable will do the job just as well.

High quality conduction only for electrons?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maplins in the UK used to sell gold-plated Toslink cables...

I guess the audiophiles are not only picky, but not that bright.

$2 Spell Check

[eples]

Directly from the Denon webpage:

Attention to detail when building this cable was used by empoying high quality insulation, tin-bearing alloy shielding ...

They should have enough money to "empoy" some better writers at those prices.

Confusion

[DeanFox]

I was watching _HomeTime_ a generic DYI TV show and they were doing a home theater. When it came to the cables the host is shown choosing Monster cables from the shelf pretty much saying it's best to go with the higher quality just to be sure. Less expensive options were available but his explanation and tone was one of better safe than sorry.

On their show recap Monster is listed http://www.hometime.com/TV/pastshow/pastshows/1995/theater.htm as the cable supplier.

Monster is probably a paid advertiser but no other explanation was given for the high price other than better safe than sorry. I cringed but not everybody understands this magic called technology like most /. users do. They're confused and most expensive is generally related to better.

And Monster cables are better quality. It's not like they're lying. It just doesn't matter. If they'd compare it to something they understand something like the light bulb doesn't care about the quality of the light switch.

-[d]-

Ethernet?

[masonc]

I don't see anything that suggests it is an ethernet cable. If it was ethernet, they would have to state the category. All they state is it is a Denon-Link cable. Is Denon-Link ethernet? How fast?

Paying for R&D

[joshuao3]

Looks like they need to sell only one of these to pay for R&D costs. Seems like a pretty good business model to me.

Finally,

[LM741N]

someone beats Monster Cable to the punch- in the Cayman Islands that is.

For a cleaner Internet

[Biedermann]

Wellllll,
methinks every library, school and family with kids should get one. At last there's a chance to get a clean connection to the Internet.

No more smut! Yay!

monster cables

[asylumx]

Jeez, and I thought monster cables were expensive...

Re:A fool and his money

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

$500 cable = first post all the time :) Wasn't that an Eddie Murphy song from way back?

to give some perspective

[GregNorc]

The Asus Eee PC I'm posting this from was four hundred dollars from newegg. It's not perfect, but as a student, it's great for web browsing, notetaking, etc.

Sounds like these guys and Monster Cable should talk shop.

The cable is for people who make 100 * more

[Colin Smith]

It's basically the equivalent to a $5 cable to them.

If you read slashdot, this isn't for you

[Anonymous Coward]

There are people who make $1000 a freaking minute, for whom $500 is like 50 cents. This is a product for them, not you. Do you drive the same car as someone who makes $100,000,000 a year? Do they get from A to B than you? Do they enjoy it more?

"Value" does not mean anything to someone like this. The cost is irrelevant. I have no doubt that Denon is _not_ making these for $1 each and selling them for $500. They probably spent $25000 on picking the plastics, getting molds made, etc. They might sell a few hundred, making a profit, but not enough to matter. Limited edition custom stuff costs a lot to make. They do it for a few reasons (1) someone will buy it (2) it makes the price of cables they will sell in volume seem more reasonable (think anchoring effect) (3) it makes them seem like they also cater to the high end, which to many people implies their normal stuff it better than some company that doesn't (4) and on and on... it's a business! Next there will be an article claiming $2000/hr sex isn't better than $100/hr sex.

Re:If you read slashdot, this isn't for you

[b1t r0t]

The cost may be irrelevant to them, but apparently performance is too, since cat-6 cables are designed to be high quality without spending $300 a foot. Just because they have the money doesn't mean they need to light cigars with $100 bills because "the high-cotton content fibers in US currency, along with the special color-shifting inks, bring out all the richness of the flavor in the tobacco".

Do they get from A to B than you?

The question you should be asking is "Do they even bother to do an A vs B double-blind test?"

Re:is there a study out there on this kind of thin

[b1t r0t]

If I had to concoct a theory off the top of my head, it would be that audiophilia works basically in the same way as a cult religion, only one that's stripped of all the traditional meaning-of-life accoutrements, and instead is extraordinarily science/rationality-driven.

So you mean to say that it's like the belief in anthropogenic global warming, only they use their own money instead of making the rest of us pay for it?

Somebody at Denon lost a bet

[Jawn98685]

"Dude, check this out. I made this tricked-out looking ethernet cable from some crap I bought at Fry's. I'm gonna take a picture of it and slap some logos on it with Photoshop and sell it on the web site for $499, and maybe for $500 at Amazon."
"Man, nobody is stupid enough to pay $500 for an ethernet cable..."
"Five bucks says they sell, Dude."
"You're on, man."

BTW, "Man" won the bet and has been promoted to Vice President of Marketing.

Don't forget the aging period

[Anonymous Coward]

The first review is by an upset customer who failed to notice a change in the sound quality.

Some manufacturers of kilobuck cables are well prepared for this initial experience. They will indicate that their hyper-inflated product requires a period of "aging," or "burning in," of perhaps several weeks, before the superior sound quality becomes evident to the ears. Hopefully, over this time, the fervent expectation of the deluded audiophile will produce the necessary hallucination that the sound *is* superior. Human perception is very easily tainted.

One must admit that it is a rather clever, if deviant, marketing strategy.

a fool and his money soon part ways

[steak]

you can always count on audiophiles with too much money to buy over priced jumk in an effort to hear sounds that are anatomically impossible for humans to hear.

BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Time ago an Audiophile magazine of my country proposed a test, where people asserting those huge differences in audio fidelity between different speaker cables, could put themselves in test.
They proposed a "blind" listening sessions compare, where cheap electrical cables were compared with hi-end cables.
You'd pay something like $200 to participate, and if you could get the difference between the hi-end cable and the electrical one, four times out of five, you'd win a pretty expensive (in the $3000 range IIRC) set of speakers. Plus you'd get your $200 back.
Nobody showed up.

And neither is RJ-45 a cable

[phliar]

RJ-45 is the plastic connector (cf. the little plastic connector that phone cords have is an RJ-11). The ethernet cable we know and love is 4-pair UTP Cat 5.

No one is saying that a cable cannot make a difference for an analog signal; obviously it does. But this Denon-Link is a digital signal.

Re:And neither is RJ-45 a cable

[LMariachi]

Not defending Denon's cable here, but analog vs. digital is not the distinction you seem to imagine. Not all digital transport protocols have error correction. Even with those that do, build a crappy cable that drops half your packets and then see if it doesn't make a difference because "it's digital."

Re:Free with Vista Ultimate.

[Bloater]

I know, the /really/ funny thing is that there was similar software for Windows 95!!!

Re:is there a study out there on this kind of thin

[jeffomatic]

Yeah, something like that. Although based on the phrasing of your reply, I think you and I probably stand on opposite sides of the line with respect to global warming. But that's partly what I mean: we both refer to the same rationality to defend diametrically opposing claims. So what do we do now? I feel myself sliding into territory that's been covered much better by any given postmodern philosopher, although I want to reserve the hope that the truth isn't simply based which side is best-armed with scientists and research funding.

I know about as much about environmental science as a regular educated member of the public, which is to say not much. Therefore my belief that humans cause global warming is essentially an expression of faith, in a certain science, or in a certain group of people who propose to know better. I know this doesn't sum to a real argument, but to me the analogy here breaks down because I think audiophile "science" is much more obviously a lie--blatant falsehoods pop up in the immediate sales pitch, e.g. the claim that there are relative degrees of "purity" or "interference" in a stream of bits easily refuted. However, it seems to me that with the global warming issue, there is a real correlation between human activity and average temperatures, and the argument then becomes how to interpret the data to prove causation. And I don't think the conversation can be so superficially discarded as with the kind of "analog bits" claim that goes on above.

Maybe a better way to understand the point we've constructed here is that you could say that audiophile marketing and the global warming debate are basically instantiations of the same generic philosophical or sociological impasse vis-a-vis science, but I think I'd have to insist there is a big difference between the two in the degree of difficulty with which one side can be dismissed as wrong.

Audiophiles should be offended...

[bugfreezer]

From Denon's site: "Denon's 1.5 meter (59 in.) ultra premium Denon Link cable was designed for the audio enthusiast." To hear Denon tell it, Audiophiles are suckers, and they make products just for them. I'd be ticked and show Denon the door.

vibration ...

[Hasmanean]

>woven jacketing to reduce vibration

Of course, vibration can affect electromagnetic waves severely...if the cable is vibrating at several hundred megahertz. It's have to be pretty tensed to do that all by itself.

The only things affected by vibration are oscillators and semiconductors. I have a cheap wristwatch which used to lose a few seconds a day, but when the strap broke and I left it home, it barely lost a single second over about two weeks.

They should jacket the PC instead.

You just don't undertand. Here is the real science

[earthling1023]

As previous poster remarked, real amateurs! Here is The Real Stuff for a True Enthusiast, very professionally explained, with a good deal of scientific details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlkD7HNpBP8 And don't forget about a good power cable - it is essential for high quality sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK02rrp4jIA I am going to get a couple of power cables. One for my washing machine, it should improve color depth, which is obvious. The other one for the fridge, it should keep products fresher longer. I also _beleive_, that it may prevent cross-contamination of tomatoes by salmonella particles from fish. Beware of fakes though: http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1197/virtual-dynamics-power-3-2000-profit-margin. Now, my tommy hurts and eyes are wet. Must be those cross-contaminated tomatoes..

Not ethermet - more like firewire

[Kingston]

I am not an audiophile. I don't know how Denon's equipment is set up. From reading about Denon link I do know it's not being used in a X BASE-T configuration. From the description it is a low voltage differential signalling system like SATA/eSATA or Firewire or ultra2 SCSI, hence the use of shielding. It also is quite high throughput 1.2 or 1.4 Gbps. So I would not be so confident about plugging in a $2 UTP cable, especially as the pinouts could be different and your $10,000 Denon amplifier goes pop, fizz ( in high clarity of course ). You could speculate ( any audiophiles here ) that the Denon system is very low latency with no error checking, error correction or retransmission,( unlikely ) making the quality of the cable more important than in an ethernet application. Still there is no way you can justify $500 for this.

MacOS had this too

[commodoresloat]

At one time, RAM Doubler was one of the most popular accessories for MacOS (before OS X of course).

It's not for Ethernet

[GWBasic]

Even though it's an Ethernet cable, it's not for Ethernet. For a long time, there was no way to digitally connect a DVD-A or SACD player to the amp. It looks like Denon's proprietary technology uses an ethernet plug.

That being stated, my combo DVD-A / SACD player cost me $250, and sounds excellent. Considering that ordinary Ethernet makes great speaker cable in a pinch; I find the benefits of this cable to be dubious. If anyone ever tried to sell it to me, my response would be "I'm not stupid."

Can't there be legal action pursued against Denon?

[monoqlith]

This is a 100% scam. I can't believe I ever bought headphones from them - they were way overpriced for the quality they gave.

I will not swing cables in Cisco class

[Kwesadilo]

One time on my networking class (branded by Cisco), one guy was being generally mischievous, and the teacher told him to stop. A little later, he pulled some Cat-5 off the spool and started swinging it around the room. The teacher grabbed him and made him write "I will not swing cables in Cisco class" one thousand times on the board. At the time, I thought it was an overreaction on the part of the instructor, but now I know: the cable must have been one of these. It's a shame that kid only ever wrote about five hundred of his thousand. You shouldn't swing $499 cables in Cisco class.

It's an USB cable

[skulgnome]

I'll show you later.

One thing I find Hilarious

[rabtech]

I work with pro audio as a side-gig, mixing local events, etc. I've worked on systems as small as $10,000 and as large as $1 million, just on the audio gear.

It always amazes me that people will spend $1000/ft on worthless junk cables but don't demand that manufacturers add balanced connections to their gear.

Typically you pipe analog audio around on a balanced line - three wires, +, -, and ground. Interference affects both + and - the same, so when you get to the other end of the connection you invert the - signal, add it together and boom - you just canceled out the majority of the interference and noise. This is a simplified description of what happens, but still... it would make a hell of a bigger difference than using de-oxygenated gold cables.

What is even *more* amazing is that people believe that such things can have any effect on digital signals. If a cable is marginal it might cause occasional corruption of bits, which would manifest itself as highly distorted audio... or even random screetching. Otherwise if the cable meets some minimum standard it can't possibly affect the signal. Either the bits make it across the wire or they don't. With input buffers you don't even have to worry about jitter anymore.

Re:One thing I find Hilarious

[Big_Breaker]

By the way you just described how ethernet works as well, which is relevant to the article. Inverting and adding the "mirror" signal cancels a huge amount of the noise. Do you twist balanced cables around each other too?

Digital?

[Bert64]

The idea of "premium cables" makes very little sense with Digital media...

With an analog cable, it can be argued that better cabling results in better output due to less loss or added noise along the cable, and it's very difficult to gauge the point at which perfect reproduction has been achieved (ie it cant get any better)..

With Digital on the other hand, once you have a bit for bit copy with no loss that was transferred at the maximum speed of the devices (ie no retransmits due to dropped/lost packets), then it's by definition perfect and can't get any better.
And in terms of audio reproduction, "perfect" isn't required from the cable, it doesn't really matter if packets are dropped and retransmitted so long as they arrive in time, so long as a perfect digital copy is received on the other end. And of course, it's easy to prove that a digital copy is identical to the original.

Sooner or later, even audiophiles will realise this and the companies that make these premium cables will find themselves without a market.

Re:Digital?

[SuiteSisterMary]

The problem you get with somelike like Ethernet is that it is, inherently, digital. And there's a lot you can do to improve it's functioning, or it's margin-of-safety, which stage performers might want. Any network tech who's spent hours trying to track down an intermittant fault in a cat5 will tell you that.

That having been said, yes, most of the cable stuff is snake oil. 'Directionality?' Yeah, copper is directional to electric current.

One of my own personal favourites is 'in surround sound, all your speaker cables need to be the same length; if they're not, the sound won't be synced.' So, for example, if the cable to your left-front is twelve feet long, but the cable to your right-front (for some reason) is one hundred feet long, you'll be hearing the sound from the front-left ever-so-slightly before the right-front. So, if your longest run is 100 feet, you need five (or seven, or whatever) 100ft cables.

...unless you do the math. Then you find that with a difference of three hundred feet of cable, the positional error is less than that of your head moving due to your breathing.

What?

[p3d0]

Do you know what "digital" means?

Re:What?

[p3d0]

Yep, so instead of slight degradation or interference of your audio signal, you now have the chance of it just being a zero. Which means no sound at all. Just like Satellite technology, instead of fading out slowly as you enter a tunnel you just get 100% drop instantly. Great Success! Holy smokes. I have no idea how to respond to this, because it makes no sense at all. If you ever see an actual published claim that a normal 6-foot ethernet cable in someone's listening room can cause even a single-bit data loss that a $500 cable would prevent, let me know.

On/Off is great for a lot of things, but music... and especially "audiophile" quality it is not. Music on records used to be nice perfect smooth *ANALOG* reproductions of the audio recorded, now we get *DIGITAL* stair-stepped, clipped, and compressed junk. That's a different issue. I thought we were talking about cables.

not Cat5...

[wild_berry]

Considering that ordinary Ethernet makes great speaker cable in a pinch...

In a totally non-audiophile way, I suggest you use something thicker than Cat5 for speaker cable -- the wire may not be thick enough to carry the output of your power amplifier to move the speaker cones and produce the volume of sound you want.

(I do know of a bloke who made speaker cable from Cat5, but it's something like 27 runs in parallel between the amplifier and the speaker terminals. I couldn't work out if using the twisted pairs as positive and negative pairs -- as he did -- produced any advantage or disadvanage.)

Re:not Cat5...

[GWBasic]

In a totally non-audiophile way, I suggest you use something thicker than Cat5 for speaker cable

In a pinch = When you're setting up a haunted house and don't have 30 minutes to drive to Best Buy to get real speaker wire.

And the Russians used Cat6...

[sco_robinso]

This reminds me of that old NASA joke. 'NASA spent several years and millions of dollars developing a pen for use in space - one that could write in temperatures ranging from -200 to +200 degrees, could write underwater, upside down, and in all gravitational situations. The Russians just used a pencil'. Then there's the poor bastards who will pay several grand for a simple 'audiophile' networking setup using ultra-premium Denon Cat5 cables, where the rest of us will just use Cat6, GigE, and some pfsense pixy-dust. Hilarious. Even Sony sells $50 6' Cat5 cables that are PS3 'approved'. I never knew 1's and 0's had such a hard time travelling a couple feet.

A fool and his money

[KiwiCanuck]

are soon departed.

They are geeks too

[dropper14]

Audiophiles are geeks too, but they are limited only to switching cables and audio-components. DIY audiophiles not so limited as just audiophiles, but also limited, to permanent switching capacitors, wires, solder...

On the otherhand...

[Matrix2110]

All I need is just a few people to buy these...

Cha-Ching!

quite reasonably priced.

[oxnard]

Well with the cost of snake oil (obviously a petroleum derivative) tied to the inflation rate plus the P.T. Barnum meadow-muffin base the product is quite reasonably priced.