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Visitors To US Now Required To Register Online
mytrip sends a reminder that starting today, visitors to the US from 35 visa-waiver countries will be required to register online with the Department of Homeland Security in advance. The DHS is asking people to go online for the ESTA program 72 hours before traveling, but they can register any amount of time ahead. Approval, once granted, is good for 2 years. DHS says that most applications are approved in 4 seconds. If an application is rejected, the traveler will have to go to a US embassy and get a visa. CNet reports that information from applications will be retained for 12 years, and eventually up to 75 years.
Johnny Foreigners, as long as they've filled in the right form!
If he's the Walrus then can I be a penguin please?
Yeah, so much for "your huddled masses" :(
Additionally, watch Americans be completely surprised when these countries reciprocate the generosity.
meh
and I'm doubly not going now.
Do people still visit that country?
I mean I don't even get a shopping card from our local supermarket because I don't think it's necessary for them to have my personal information...
I'm not a criminal, and I don't want to be treated as such. It would be would be debatable if they kept personal information for say a year or so and you could trust them to delete your information afterward.
... too bad, I'd really liked to have seen those miracles of nature within the US borders. Ohwell, I'll pour my money into another country's economy. Northern Spain is pretty nice in spring, I've heard.
"CNet reports that information from applications will be retained for 12 years, and eventually up to 75 years. " Like as in, This will go on your permanent record!
ACK
Either this is a naive dumb solution to a real problem or it's a bureaucratic means to reject any undesirable stereotypes with citizenship from the above 35 nations. Why not just use the passport scans upon entry? Perhaps the systems are not integrated or the time is not sufficient to cross check your identity against the massive data we've collected about you :)
Apart from creating a few jobs, what good can this bring? Please answer!
..especially as I find the American people on the whole some of the most freindly welcoming and interesting people to visit. Sadly however I simply cannot stomach the attitudes and actions of their Govt. I made up my mind never to visit again after a 5 hour wait in Dulles to get through immigration, and was greeted by the most pig ignorant downright hostile group of people I've ever met at the DHS/TSA desk or whatever. You want my fingerprints, you want my details, sorry. Convict me of a crime first. Wanting to visit and spend my dollars in your country is not a crime I'm afraid - I'll go visit Canada instead.
The test itself isn't new, it's just online now. I've been filling out those forms for years, and might actually welcome the new procedure. I've frequently been told by flight attendants that the slightest mistake requires to fill out a new form. That includes the different ways some digits are written (1 and 7), writing in the wrong line etc. I've gotten used to it, but for some people it takes five or more tries to get it right which is highly annoying when they're seated next to you.
BTW: the questions are obviously ridiculous ("Are you traveling to the US to commit a crime?", "Have you been involved in a genocide?"). I guess the goal is to have more legal ammunition if you want to deport someone later.
Fleur de Sel
Ok, time to cue the "I'm not going to the U.S. now" comments... this should be predictable.
The thing is, besides the inevitable furor from the tin-foil hatted crowd, is this policy a step in the wrong direction, or just a return to slightly stricter times? When I came to this country in the early 1970s it was required that we get visa's and passports, present them at the U.S. border, fill out extensive forms documenting our stay etc. And yet we were still thrilled to come here, despite some pretty awful things that had happened in the 60s. We had no doubt that our information was kept on file, and yet it was definitely worth it to come here.
So I am not sure if this policy is just a return to slightly stricter immigration control. If it is, can the policy work and is it necessary? Let's have some constructive discussion instead of whining please.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
If not done already, I can see the politically correct crowd demanding random flagging quotas in the name of "fairness". What a huge PITA this is going to be for business and family travelers.
Life is not for the lazy.
You are about to access a Department of Homeland Security computer system. This computer system and data therein are property of the U.S. Government and provided for official U.S. Government information and use. There is no expectation of privacy when you use this computer system. The use of a password or any other security measure does not establish an expectation of privacy. By using this system, you consent to the terms set forth in this notice. You may not process classified national security information on this computer system. Access to this system is restricted to authorized users only. Unauthorized access, use, or modification of this system or of data contained herein, or in transit to/from this system, may constitute a violation of section 1030 of title 18 of the U.S. Code and other criminal laws. Anyone who accesses a Federal computer system without authorization or exceeds access authority, or obtains, alters, damages, destroys, or discloses information, or prevents authorized use of information on the computer system, may be subject to penalties, fines or imprisonment. This computer system and any related equipment is subject to monitoring for administrative oversight, law enforcement, criminal investigative purposes, inquiries into alleged wrongdoing or misuse, and to ensure proper performance of applicable security features and procedures. DHS may conduct monitoring activities without further notice.
Does this mean that they are implying that I'm hacking a DHS server just by following a link to it?
Break the sound barrier - bring the noise.
"I think this program is security theater more than anything else but our entry/exit requirements still aren't that onerous compared to other countries I can think of."
Care to provide more details, or was that pure rhetoric?
Afaik, no state on this planet has my fingerprints yet, and I do not plan on handing them over any time soon. If that means not to travel to foreign countries where I would love to go to, so be it. I'll watch documentaries instead.
I have my principles, and a change of law will not change them!
Meme of the day: I browse "Disable Sigs: Checked". So should you.
Unless you have to for business reasons?
When I started college 3 years ago I was actually planning on spending a year in the US just to see what the standards and discussions are like and to see whose history I'm studying here. Since then, each year, the American governments makes one shit move after another and my interest in actually visiting this country dwindles with every one. I'm not having my fingerprints be stored for almost two decades in your "potential foreign sleeper terrorist" list and I'm not going through the silliest questions ever invented -again- (the actually DO have that "Did you come here to kill the president" question, I had to answer that when I was 14).
... locked away in his castle on the hilltop shooting at the mailman scared for his life. Congrats America, if that's what your freedom looks like ... no wonder "they" hate it. I do too. The USA used to be a symbol for immgration, diversity and -hell- freedom. Now it's become a symbol of lies, deception, bigotry, intolerance and paranoia. It makes me sad actually.
One more time the bigotry triumphs. Leader of the world, biggest and strongest army
After I heard the horror stories of families that went, were arrested and badly treated all because of a computer glitch I'm still not visiting the US.
However, I would like to go some day, but not until I can be sure I won't be butt probed upon arrival then thrown into a holding area with real criminals like UK families were.
Hey! Where's the "Are you a terrorist?" one?
From tfa: Travelers are being asked to fill out the forms at least 72 hours in advance of travel. .... Travelers filling out the online form will be told whether their request is authorized, denied or pending, he said. Those who are marked "pending" must check back in 72 hours to see if they have been approved, he said.
Hi,
no problem, the US are on my "no fly list" for some time now. Unluckily i'm not allowed to talk about how the US could get removed....
Regards, Martin
The popup alert - and YES the obviously never heard of "\n" - it's all_one_long_paragraph:
"You are about to access a Department of Homeland Security computer system. This computer system and data therein are property of the U.S. Government and provided for official U.S. Government information and use. There is no expectation of privacy when you use this computer system. The use of a password or any other security measure does not establish an expectation of privacy. By using this system, you consent to the terms set forth in this notice. You may not process classified national security information on this computer system. Access to this system is restricted to authorized users only. Unauthorized access, use, or modification of this system or of data contained herein, or in transit to/from this system, may constitute a violation of section 1030 of title 18 of the U.S. Code and other criminal laws. Anyone who accesses a Federal computer system without authorization or exceeds access authority, or obtains, alters, damages, destroys, or discloses information, or prevents authorized use of information on the computer system, may be subject to penalties, fines or imprisonment. This computer system and any related equipment is subject to monitoring for administrative oversight, law enforcement, criminal investigative purposes, inquiries into alleged wrongdoing or misuse, and to ensure proper performance of applicable security features and procedures. DHS may conduct monitoring activities without further notice."
Elsewhere:
"Is this Web site secure and private?
Yes. This Web site is operated by the United States Government and employs technology to prevent unauthorized access to the information you enter and view. Additionally, this Web site operates under the rules and regulations as specified by the United States Privacy Act and this Privacy Statement to insure the privacy of your information."
So, since we can't "process national security information on this computer", and our application is made pursuant to national security requirements, aren't we in violation if we apply?
Also, as they point out, you waive your expectation of privacy on use.
Really comforting ... (well, actually, not.)
Countries have every right to set the terms for other people to enter their borders. This, unfortunately, is just security theatre. Then again, expect this to be required (along with a dna sample) of US citizens 10 years from now when they want to send their kids to the local school, or get a bank account, or fly on a plane, or buy a cell phone or get Internet access (restricted by the Great Firewall of America, of course) ... they'll do it "because they can."
Kevin Smith on Prince
Canadians don't have to do this.... yet. We do however need two pieces of ID.
Random rejections - They also say that they will randomly reject people for 'quality control' purposes, forcing them to go get a visa at the nearest US embassy (with all the trouble that entails).
This is not currently possible because you fill out the form while in-flight at the moment, and they can hardly randomly deport you. (Plus, last time I flew, US Customs said that you will still have to fill out the waiver forms even with this new system)
One of my big annoyances with travelling to the US, especially under the visa waiver programme, is that evil landing card that they make foreigners fill out. It's worse because that form is 1) badly designed and a pain in the arse to fill out and 2) everyone warns of dire consequences for not filling it out correctly.
It does have to be said that getting into the US, even for Australians and Brits (like me), is still a bigger pain in the arse than for many other countries. This is before you count in things like privacy issue, having to go through two security checkpoints to *ENTER* the country, the nuisance factor of having your fingerprints and photo taken, having to 'scan out' at those dinky little Homeland Security terminals upon leaving the country, that sort of thing.
A curious situation for a country which prides itself on being the 'Land of the Free'!.
So visa preapproval over the net, to do away with the horrible landing card (and having it valid for several years), in my book, is actually a slight improvement on the way things were.
Yeah, so much for "your huddled masses" :(
Additionally, watch Americans be completely surprised when these countries reciprocate the generosity.
Hate to break it to you, but the "huddled masses" wording is part of a poem, not the US immigration policy.
I'd further like to note that this requirement is for people traveling under the visa waiver program... ie. it's an alternative to getting a visa. There's nothing new to stop travelers from getting a visa from a US embassy the old fashioned way.
Putting moderation advice in your
After America started running headlong towards a police-state, it just wouldn't make sense to go there. In the same way that an American Jew wouldn't have gone to Germany in 1938.
Yes, because America is confiscating the property of a minority group while condoning violence against said group and laying long term plans for the extermination of that group. Your comparison is totally legitimate and not trolling at all. Mod parent up!
It's a country that can arrest and detain without warrant, without charges, without representation and without trial.
Yeah, if your caught on a battlefield while engaged in hostilities against US forces. Do you have a single citation for that happening to somebody at the border or are you just blowing smoke?
And it believes in torture
Apparently you haven't been watching the news lately?
And the death penalty.
So I take it you won't be visiting Japan either then?
So I can get mugged in Times Square?
New York City is one of the safer cities in the United States and probably in the World. Nice way to stereotype though.
Visit the Creationist museum at the Grand Canyon?
How about the Museum of National History in NYC? How about just going to see the Grand Canyon? You gonna tell me the US is the only country in the World with religious nutjobs?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
This is just an electronic form of the I-W94 Visa waiver form (or something like that) that you have to submit each time. Having this would actually be better than filling that paper thing.
Silly part is that now there are three "entry notifications": this, the paper form, and the notification you either do at the checkin/gate or is done by the travel agent. I guess they'll eventually be unified...
Being Canadian and having family that cross the border on a regular basis, how will this affect Canadians? Will we have to register online?
Canadians entering the states (who are driving, not flying) do not need anything other than a valid drivers license and a clean criminal record (which they look up upon entering).
If you are flying in, all the rules for everyone else is the same.
So, to reiterate, do Canadians driving into the country have pre-register online?
The waiver program was supposed to be a way that citizens could get from their country to a friendly country without much hassle or processing times (aka a visa). It's supposed to go both ways, but now the US has put up a tiny roadblock to that smoothness. Here's to hoping the other countries don't reciprocate in classic xenophobic style.
I see no problem with ESTA, I filled it a month ago and I was approved immediatly, no problem whatsoever. It's way better than have to fill those forms manually or in the airplane/border. A lot of people from other countries can't enjoy the ESTA "easyness" and have to get a proper USA visa, and be sure it is not easy to get one... so I'm still very happy with ESTA.
Waiver of Rights: I have read and understand that I hereby waive for the duration of my travel authorization obtained via ESTA any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
In addition to the above waiver, as a condition of each admission into the United States under the Visa Waiver Program, I agree that the submission of biometric identifiers (including fingerprints and photographs) during processing upon arrival in the United States shall reaffirm my waiver of any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
So if you decide to travel, you do not have any right to question/appeal decision of the officer at the arrival airport. If he says you go back, you go back, without any possibility to talk with supervisor or explaining your case (you just waived that by submitting online request).
Joke is on you my friend.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AFJKQq9tLI8
Are you serious? New York is one of the safest cities in the world. You wouldn't get mugged.
that the new motto of usa ?
I have to agree with another poster that I'm not surprised at the amount of anti-America bashing this generated. However, those of you who live outside the USA and are not American citizens should probably consider the following.
1. Most Americans never travel outside of North America and have no desire to do so.
2. The US government regards everybody except Canadians as potential illegal immigrants. Yes, even you EU guys and gals. Trust me when I tell you that while there are certainly American businesses that do want your money, my government really doesn't care if nobody comes over to visit.
3. Probably less than 1% of Americans know the visa requirements for foreigners to come here. Almost everybody I've talked to in the USA had no idea how difficult to impossible it is for citizens of non-Visa Waiver countries to get visas to come here. Almost all Americans think that Mexicans and others need only apply for visas to come here legally and they are simply too lazy to do so. I've seen shocked expressions on the faces of many people when they found out how difficult it truly can be to even visit here as a tourist. I've known of cases of legal immigrants who were unable to get tourist visas for family members to come here to visit.
So if you non-USA people expect us to "fix" our broken system, well, good luck with that because the truth is that almost nobody knows how it really works and almost nobody cares if it discourages you from coming here. That is reality. If you don't want to fill out an online form to come neither my government nor the vast majority of my fellow citizens care if you don't come because you don't like the rules. If you think this is some sort of meaningful protest, you are mistaken.
I'm a US citizen living in Japan, and I wanted to see what my friends and coworkers will have to deal with, so I checked out the Japanese version of the registration website.
It's very poorly planned out in the following ways:
1. Translation is confusing and broken in parts. There were sentences that just broke off halfway through.
2. Due to the details of Japanese text input on computers, you have to specifically tell users to enter single-byte characters in text forms, and actually enforce the this requirement with proper input validation because many people don't really understand the difference. This is unless, of course, you're prepared to handle double-byte alphanumerics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullwidth_form) on the back end. Anyway, the form tells you to enter your info in the Latin alphabet (romaji), but nowhere does it specify single-byte. I wanted to test the form to see how well it coped with double-byte characters, but I didn't want the DHS knocking down my door in the middle of the night.
3. The website is not designed with mobile access in mind (or so I assume; I couldn't even connect to the site on my AU phone). Many, many Japanese people don't have PCs, and do all their internet activities on their mobile phones with very limited browsers.
4. The website does no geo sniffing and ignores preferred language settings, defaulting to English and throwing up a giant legalese JavaScript popup. Talk about unfriendly.
Ultimately I suspect that people will end up leaving all this bullshit to travel agents, and very few people will personally deal with the system on any level (unless that's not allowed; of course I didn't RTFA).
It's worse because that form is 1) badly designed and a pain in the arse to fill out and 2) everyone warns of dire consequences for not filling it out correctly.
You lost me there. How is that different from the new solution, aside from not requiring computer literacy and an internet connection (Ha, take that you evil terrorist grannies - without the help of your grandkids, you're not going to get in!).
It's a country that can arrest and detain without warrant, without charges, without representation and without trial.
That's a gross overstatement. (It's seriously disgusting.) In the United Stats, people don't just get arrested willy-nilly. I'm not saying such a thing has happened, but if you're referencing Gitmo then that's all Afghanistan combatants (weather they really are combatants or not is another debate). Traveling to the United States from another country leaves no possibility of false imprisonment, though you can be detained. When they detain it's usually for a good reason, but just like every place there's idiots who will do it for a clearly innocent person. You just hear the US a lot because people like to hate.
Once you get in to the country, if you are arrested without a warrant, probable cause, and without charges you can expect the prosecution in any kind of trial to get reamed. Believe it or not, our judicial system isn't a bastion of corruption.
This is a visa under a different name
Be thankful that you do not need to give a blood sample yet. I went to some dink ass Asian destination and it was not a really small airport but not much more than a couple of buildings. As I was not a local they wanted to take a blood sample as I went through customs using the one and only needle they had at the airport - lucky for me a friend warned me about this 'unusual' process and I brought my own 'never used' needle - now the airport has TWO needles.
So what of the 12 million Illegal immigrant population of the USA and the fact that 80% drive over the border from Mexico that's 4% of your population
A poem in a FRENCH statue, no less.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
When I went to visit Dubai for my friends wedding, I remember the officials taking my iris scan before entering the other side of the customs. Luckily, the scanner did not work in my case after trying several others. Eventually they let me go.
I would never defend the US's use of torture, suspension of habeas corpus for terror suspects, etc. They're horribly corrosive and embarassing things that every American should be ashamed of.
But, our "secret police," if you will, is the CIA, which only operates abroad. The whole reason that Guantanamo Bay exists is that the CIA and military were afraid of having to be subject to US civil law and courts, so they held all the illegally captured and held prisoners on a base that's on foreign soil.
There's really no risk to someone who is vacationing in the US of being arrested and held without warrant. If the authorities thought that you were dangerous, they wouldn't have let you in, hence the ridiculously onerous requirements for getting in, even for visa-waiver countries. The FBI and domestic police know better than to try to flagrantly break laws regarding habeas corpus or torture, because if it happened within our borders -- where our civil courts have clear authority -- they know their asses would be handed to them.
Hello, Homeland Security? Yes, this is a cynical citizen here, totally disgusted with our trashing what our Founding Fathers intended with your tyrannical intent to create a police state. May I suggest a better solution rather than destroy relations with friends and give more people abroad to make fun of America's Security Theater? I don't have the space to fully explain the concept here but please visit these following web pages for a primer on doing your job:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_psychology
http://psychology.about.com/od/psychologycareerprofiles/a/forensicpsych.htm
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~mlyount/MySites/ForensicPsychology/CriminalProfiling.html
In a nutshell the principle is this: if one does not fit into a "psychology profile" then one is very likely (probability approaches 1) not going to be a ter'rist. The concept is called "profiling," and guess what? It's not based on skin color so tell the political correctness bleeding hearts to fuck off and start practicing actual forensic science! There is no need for a protestant minister or 75-yr-old jewish or hindu woman to be harassed and documented like a criminal. Here in America we have welcomed both visitors and (legal) immigrants from the very beginning. Please do not make it any less desirable to foreigners. As it is most already hate us thanks to the likes of you.
Signed,
An American citizen loyal to the thirteen stars and stripes who is descended from Polish, Italian, Irish, and Jewish immigrants.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Isn't this what a passport is for? Is the U.S. government actively trying to stop tourism? How is this supposed to be any safer than ... oh, I don't know .. highly porous borders to the north and south, not to mention two really large oceans on either side?
The idiocy of a government trying to look as though it's protecting its citizens shows itself once again.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
And people wonder why the US likes to check and double check who's comming into the country? "A security van carrying blank visas and passports was hijacked near Manchester in north England at 6:40 a.m. Monday, 28 July 2008. At least 3,000 blank passports and visa stickers in 24 brown cardboard boxes - intended for distribution to embassies and consulates abroad - were stolen." Ref: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2008-07-30/uk/blank-e-passport-visa-theft-england.htm
Code is simple on the backkend
boolean reject=false;
if (name.matches("m(o|u)h(a|u)m{1,2}(a|e)d") {
reject = true;
}
Only thing I can't figure out, why the hell it takes 4 seconds to execute such simple code. Must be perl or java, maybe network latency.
Instead of filling in an "I95" on the plane one has to spend a few seconds giving the same details on line once and it lasts a couple of years.... What's the big deal to this? It actually saves time if you visit more than once in 2 years. Sometimes the planes run out of paper I95s and create more inconvenience. A while ago I visited Australia and had to apply for a paper visa, in my passport, via one of their embassies. If I had been given the choice of doing it all online I would have jumped at the convenience. Move along people. Borders and immigration stuff exists worldwide. What the US does today the EU will do tomorrow and vice versa. That's the world we live in.
Osama Bin-Ladin was registered without a problem from a public library terminal.
If you are not happy with the way states are cracking down on civil liberties, you might be interested in joining the movement to open source all governments.
If anyone is wondering, here's a list of the 35 visa-waiver countries:
Andorra
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Brunei
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Monaco
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
Republic of Malta
San Marino
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
Look, I've been to the US and hence through immigration for over 20 times between 1990 and 2002 and I'm sorry to say that the procedures, convenience and friendliness of officials is at the absolute bottom when compared to other countries I travelled to (including South Africa, Botswana and Zimbabwe) and I'm not inclined to believe that it got better since then.
Granted, it very much depends on the airport of entry, with Miami being probably the worst airport anywhere, in the world to deal with immigration and Chicago O'Hare (surprise!) actually being the fastest and most convenient of US airports where I went through the hassle.
So what countries are you referring to, where immmigration is even worse then in the US? (I'm really curious, not trying to flamebait).
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
I realize this is probably intended as a joke, but haven't we learned yet that the plural of anecdote is not data? This is the same style of questioning used to show ignorance for comedic value in other areas (When was the (US) Civil War? What are Obama's policies on ____ ? etc).
I can travel around the entirety of Europe without needing anything like this, just show ID.
Which means bringing a passport.
Nothing recorded, nothing logged, no database of my movements, nothing.
You think?
Admittedly I am a dual national like all EU members are
Bzzz, wrong. Thanks for playing, try again.
but the benefits to travel, employment opportunity, tourism etc are immense. To deliberatly restrict such momement does seem somewhat backwards that's all.
Hence why EU wants to impose US-like border arrangements with fingerprint sampling etc.
Of course, USA has it better here, they don't need a passport to travel to a different state.
OK, let me change my moderation: (-1, ignorant EU fanboy)
It appears the DHS doesn't like Chrome users. I can't complete the process using Chrome. Works fine in Firefox tho..
One interesting detail though... The norwegian translation also translates the address for US Customs and border control:
"U.S Tollvesen og Grensekontroll, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, rom 3.2.C., Washington DC 20229. Exp. 3-31-2009"
FTA:
He said travelers would not be required to give any more information than is already requested on the paper immigration forms, which are being replaced.
I'm assuming the "paper immigration forms" are the green I-94 forms. Doing this online ahead of time just means that any potential problems can be found then (rather than in line at immigration, when you're waiting behind them and forgot to go to the bathroom first), and it saves DHS some money that they don't have to spend on data-entry.
Assuming a whole bunch of assumptions, I don't see any problems.
"Yeah, if your caught on a battlefield while engaged in hostilities against US forces. Do you have a single citation for that happening to somebody at the border or are you just blowing smoke?"
Lol "battlefield", is that what they tell you?
"Maher Arar, a Syrian-born dual Syrian and Canadian citizen, was detained at Kennedy International Airport on 26 September 2002, by US Immigration and Naturalization Service officials. He was heading home to Canada after a family holiday in Tunisia. After almost two weeks, enduring hours of interrogation chained, he was sent, shackled and bound, in a private jet to Jordan and then Syria, instead of being extradited to Canada. There, he was interrogated and tortured by Syrian intelligence. Maher Arar was eventually released a year later."
On 17 February 2003, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr (aka "Abu Omar") was kidnapped by the CIA in Milan (Italy),[40] and deported to Egypt. His case has been qualified by Swiss senator Dick Marty to be a "perfect example of extraordinary rendition".[29]
"In October 2001, Mamdouh Habib, who lives in Australia and has both Australian and Egyptian nationality (having been born in Egypt), was detained in Pakistan"
Many many more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Example_cases
Yes, "battlefield", that's it.
The main difference between the US and EU might be some aspect of data retention, where usually in the EU the data is deleted after one or two years and there are a few more limitations on who can get to see that data, unlike the US.
While this is certainly one of the differences an even more major difference are the privacy laws (or total lack thereof in the US).
This, in my opinion, is a very important distinction, since the (rather private) data can't just be sold to some sleazy marketoids. I have no way of knowing what happens with my data once collected by US officials.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
ReasonNotToVisitUS++;
If "Cutting it fine" means "Cutting it close" - no. You're asking to apply -at least- 72 hours before your actual travel as it may take up to 72 hours for them to give you a result. They highly *recommend* that you apply as soon as possible. The application, if approved, stays valid for 2 years as long as you don't make any travel changes. Ergo, if you are *now* planning to go on a trip to the USA in Summer - say August - then you can apply now. You can check 72 hours later and if something's awry, you've still got several months to figure out what the deal is, re-apply, etc.
What bothers me is that most US airports have no notion of international transit. If I am not from the USA or Canada, then I need a transit visa if my airline requires me have a connecting flight in the USA. Such cases can occur for example if someone is from Dubai and was visiting Canada, but flying on a US airline. Such measures would encourage the traveller to seek an airline that doesn't pass through the USA. When airlines are hurting this is not something that is helping things out.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I don't know about the retention time, but the information on that web form is *exactly* the same as the I94-W Visa Waiver form that I've been filling in every time I've visited the US over the last 11 years (from the UK, where I was born and Canada, where I live).
The fingerprint scanning and photography has been going on at least the last 5 years.
There's nothing new there, as far as I'm concerned, with the exception that some fields are marked as optional, whereas on the paper form the implication is that all fields are mandatory.
If anything it's beneficial because I don't have to fill out the information on a bit of paper every time I go, and wait for the border guy to copy it into his computer. If I could save the form information (I didn't do a full application, so I don't know whether I can or not) I'd be a happy traveller.
Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
Keeping the personal information of those who choose to come to the US is bad enough, I'm pissed off that my country's government has agreed to a deal which means "exchanging data, including DNA and fingerprint records, and in some cases details of individuals' political and religious beliefs and sexual orientation - even on people not planning to travel to the US".
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1118/1226961467105.html
It seems that other countries have agreed to it too.
I realise their justification is primarily to facilitate business travellers but I wish they would just show some courage and for once say no to the US government's demands, they have no right to this data.
All this is the fault of the fucking Islam. Mohammed was a drug addict, a pedophile and a fucking asshole.
I wipe my ass with the fucking Qu'ran.
In one more week Obama will be president and all will CHANGE.
And unicorns will do the fandango out my ass.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Canada will deny you entry if you've been convicted of drug possession or DWI -- even if said conviction was a misdemeanor/civil affair if your home country. Why don't I see anybody complaining about that?
I am astonished, did you really think this through?
This might be shocking news, for entering Canada it is irrelevant which laws apply in your home country.
"As a potential Johnny foreigner, I will spend my hard won Euros somewhere else."
Please do, you won't be missed.
Of course, you're lying, and this story has fuck all to do with a decision to come to the US you may or may not have actually made, but it's funny that you'd choose to say the same retarded shit that pops up immediately in these conversations.
In ALL serioussness, if this trivial bit of beauracracy GENUINELY causes you to stay away, we're glad about it.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
I live in Austria, and I don't have to carry ID. In princible, I do not even have to own any kind of ID. In Germany, IIRC, you have to get acquire (but carry) some kind of ID when you're 16, but in may other countries not even that much is the case.
"This is a fallacy. If he cares about not handing over his fingerprints to foreign Governments, that doesn't imply he doesn't care about going to the country. On the contrary, if he didn't care about going, why would he care about the requirements?"
Because some people really do hate what they consider privacy restrictions imposed by the government.
Of course, that makes your entire post wrong, but hey lok on the bright side, you said all the right stuff to get the retards here to mod you up, even though you were irrefutably wrong.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
From the US, going to Japan requires a pre-approved visa. Leaving Japan requires payment of a tax of some sort. It has been a while, but I don't think there is a payment required for the visa up front.
From the US going to Australia requires a paid-in-advance electronic visa if not something more formal. There is no exit tax.
In either case, failure to obtain said visa gets you turned around at the departure airport. If you managed to get on the airplane you would be turned around and sent back when you arrived.
Admittedly I haven't seen any visa requirements for European traven from the US but having requirements for registration with lots of personal information is hardly unique to the US. The US has a serious problem with people deciding just to stay on regardless of immigration. Try that in any other country in the world and you will find yourself quickly deported, possibly at gunpoint.
Why does the US have to accept everyone unconditionally? Why shouldn't the US actually enforce a policy of "it is fine to come and visit, but you can't stay."
and they will take their business elsewhere. there are already more desirable and booming emerging markets to do business with, you know.
worse damage could not be done by the remnant of the neocons who are leaving power, just before they left. and in such a state that the american economy is in, too.
alienating business, despite being in desperate need of business. thats 'conservative' economy for you.
Read radical news here
There's really no risk to someone who is vacationing in the US of being arrested and held without warrant.
Quoting from twostix's example: "Maher Arar, a Syrian-born dual Syrian and Canadian citizen, was detained at Kennedy International Airport on 26 September 2002, by US Immigration and Naturalization Service officials. He was heading home to Canada after a family holiday in Tunisia. After almost two weeks, enduring hours of interrogation chained, he was sent, shackled and bound, in a private jet to Jordan and then Syria, instead of being extradited to Canada. There, he was interrogated and tortured by Syrian intelligence. Maher Arar was eventually released a year later." Maher Arar's case has become very well-known in Canada.
Atheism is a religion to the same extent that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
That is exactly Brasil's policy: they require of a country's citizens whatever that country requires of Brasil's citizens.
If the USA requires Brasilians to register 72 hours in advance of visiting the USA, it won't take long before Brasil requires US citizens to register 72 hours in advance of visiting Brasil.
I think it's fair.
The only problem is that these politicians somehow either don't understand or are exempt from these procedures.
I'm outside the USA, so I went to the website to see if my country was on this list of people who had to pre-regsiter, https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/
I got this wonderful javascript popup dialog that said...
Damn, I really want to visit now
HAHA... you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, as can clearly be seen here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14visa.html
Admittedly I am a dual national like all EU members are...
Please elaborate...
If you are a citizen of one of the member-states of the EU you still only have one nationality. If your country signed the Schengen Agreement (this does not necessarily mean you are a EU citizen, since Iceland, Norway and Switzerland signed it too) then you can travel to the other Schengen-countries without encountering border controls, though you might encounter dragnet-controls in certain areas.
National laws about the need to carry an ID (for example) or to identify yourself still apply. While crossing borders into foreign countries is quite normal in europe with all those small countries one can travel very long distances in the US without even coming near a border. So the border controls europeans had to put up with a couple of years ago were addressed at "foreign persons" and an average european encountered a lot more of them then the average US-citizen.
Long story short: Only the Schengen-bordercontrol addressed at "foreign persons" is a suitable parallel to the US-rules - and I suppose no EU-citizen ever had to put up with its rules.
They should, since it's the only way to send a message to the American people that their leaders are insane. Then a new bilateral agreement can be reached between countries reinstating friendly travel policies. Otherwise we can expect more restrictions limiting freedom of movement that will apply to Americans too when they try to get back into their own country.
I just came back to the US from a short trip abroad. I am here on a work visa and every time I go through border control I wonder why I keep working here. I think maybe the time between entries washes away what is to me a disturbing experience of entering the country.
It always makes me feel like a criminal and I am never 100% sure that things will go smoothly even though I am a citizen of an european which is not part of any government watch list du jour. You have no rights, have to take their very rude behavior without challenge to avoid risking getting into a worse situation. If things go bad you feel you are on the mercy of the 'the system' and your fortune can vary.
You always see few people taken into separate areas for some reason.
On yesterday's flight something different happen: the woman in front of me was entering on a H dependent visa and (despite the fact she had the visa on the passport), she had only a photocopy of the original i797c of her husband (used initially to obtain the visa).
The border control agent was very loud and threatening not to let her in because of that and I could see the tears coming from her eyes... What would she do? Or better yet, what would they do?
Eventually they took her to a waiting room while they verified the authenticity of the i797c.
I guess that going through the work authorization and petition process, going for the embassy for the interview, having the visa added to the passport, fingerprints and pictures taken, having to declare what you've done on the last decade including countries you have been to, and background checks, etc. was not enough for her to enter the country...
I don't know if this program is still around, but I remember a few years before I moved from the UK to the US ( I moved here 3 years ago) you where able to register for retina scanning back in the UK as a faster way to get through customs as a British Citizen. Anyone know if this died off or not?
Is the same is true within the US. You can travel all around the country with minimal hassle. If you travel by air you need to show an ID (driver license works fine), by ground there's no ID checks or border stops. No paperwork or permission is required to move state to state.
Now this would be expected, of course. It is all one country. However it is a country that is larger than Europe. It is extremely large and diverse. So traveling around this US is like traveling around Europe.
You can't compare going from the EU to the US as going from France to Germany. That is more like going from Arizona to Washington. The EU is a somewhat unified block of nations and thus there's less restrictions in it. The nations cooperate with each other in a greater way than with the rest of the world. Same deal in the US with the states, only the states are even more unified than the countries in the EU.
While I don't think this new system is useful, it isn't without precedent. It was modeled after Australia's Electronic Travel Authority. You just apply online and go.
Do you have a single citation for that happening to somebody at the border or are you just blowing smoke?
Citation given in the thread below your post.
It's not unexpected that some Americans do not know what is happening on their own borders.
But some of us at least, are paying closer attention.
My grandparents had an amusing bumper-sticker that more or less summarized this:
"I love my country. It's the government I'm afraid of."
It's news because its a good thing. Before, you had to fill out some customs and other forms, saying why you're visiting, where you're going, what you're bringing with you (if anything of value), etc. They read it over, ran it through their machine, then decided whether or not to let you in. Now you can do it online so you know BEFORE YOU FLY if you'll be allowed in. Same form, just more convenient. *GASP*
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
I'm a UK citizen in my 30s. One characteristic of my entire generation is that they love America. Most of them would willingly live there if it wasn't for family ties and general apathy. Although Brits were at one-time curmudgeonly about the US, nowadays we think it's a great place.
Speaking for myself, I admire America. It's hard not to. It's such a huge and inspiring place. But I won't be going there anytime soon.
I wait to see what Barack Obama pulls out of the hat, but George W Bush's term in office showed a pretty ugly side of America. It's like a pretty woman who suddenly revealed that she was in fact wearing a mask, and underneath she's the foulest troll imaginable.
In some ways you can blame the Internet for my opinion of America, because I get to see life as an American on a daily basis. Prior to this, America hid behind a cloud of romanticism. Now we see if for what it really is. If George Bush even farted too loudly, it made one of the news sites that I have access to.
I've visited the US only once on a business trip, and that was cool because I stayed at a colleague's house and saw America as Americans see it for a week or two. It was a great trip. But I won't be going back.
It was odd being in America and going through passport control. I suddenly became very aware of being a foreigner in a strange land. Suddenly I was a suspect. They took my finger print. If I'd had brown skin and a turban, I suspect I would have been body searched... or worse. Never mind the fact that the UK and US have a joint history -- a "special relationship". Now America is afraid of everybody -- even itself.
It was all more diplomatic that 1940s German or Italy, and people were perhaps more polite. But underneath there's the same driving force -- extreme self-interest and hate of "others".
Personally, I'm falling in love with Europe, rather than America. I want to explore the continent of Europe, and celebrate my European citizenship. I'd prefer to live in France, or Germany, than in the US. Europe is where I'd want to go on holiday.
This is a perfect tool for terrorists. If I were leading a group of 20 people intent on doing something criminal in the US I'd welcome this as a way to find out who was and wasn't likely to be stopped at the border. This isn't a way to keep America free of terrorism, it's the natural expansion of bureaucracy.
Not so much hate as intrigued - is this the first country in the world that you are not allowed to enter unless you have internet access?
I'd expect the anti-technology crowd (Daily Mail readers, etc) to be more up in arms about this than the technophile slashdot crowd.
Anyhow, I'd expect a weegie to get access to the internet somehow, they are all in a big city. It's the teuchters up in the hills who'd be more having the problem getting broadband access.
"I find it ironic that your unelected upper house is the voice of sanity in the UK. Perhaps you made a mistake when you stripped them of all their power?"
No mistake there at all buddy. People came to their right senses and realised that being ruled by unelected bodies was not a good idea (we're still working on the monarchy). Having a hereditary, unelected body of folk making the laws might seem a really cute idea from 3000 miles away but it's a bit archaic in this day and age. Somebody gets to make laws and judge you because one of their ancestors 500 years ago did something the king liked (or possibly lent him some money or similar)? No thanks. Or was that a plea from you to have the USA taken under the wing of the British Monarchy and its Parliament again? ;-)
Puh-freaking-lease. All the euro-centric folks here should stop with the comments about travel to the U.S. My wife is from Sri Lanka, and her family has been here multiple times to visit. Her mother has only once been treated poorly while getting a visa, and I suspect it is due to the same reason many others have had problems getting a visa -- she had to talk to another person employed by the embassy who was clearly having a bad day. It had nothing to do with government policies, President Bush, or Vice-President Cheney. It had everything to do with interacting with an embassy employee at the end of a long, frustrating day.
Meanwhile, when my wife and I have had to travel to -- or through -- Europe, it's freaking hell for my wife to get a visa. I'm glad it's easy for all the European folks here to travel through Europe, but why don't you pull your head out of your butt and look in the mirror. We'd love to take my mother-in-law on a trip through Europe this summer, but it's not going to happen primarily because of the difficulty in getting a visa and the way she and my wife get treated across the board by immigration officials. So go ahead -- pat yourself on the back for how you treat all your other non-asian , non-african brethern.
Go straight to Jail
Do not pass Go.
Do not collect $200.
Scary isn't it.
Canada: many people get visa on arrival.
EU: many people get visa on arrival.
The countries where I needed to apply for a visa are Vietnam, Turkey, Namibia. Even Singapore and Malaysia gave this Mexican who writes a visa on arrival.
So again, which are those countries whose system is worst, more intrusive, than the US's one?
That is how you treat your friends, the US in the other hand distrusts everybody (countries in the visa waiver system are supposed to be well predisposed in general towards the US, so if this is the way to say we love you guys I think it may not be working).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
This part:
"There is no expectation of privacy when you use this computer system."
Nobody hates the US, you guys over there just love to feel victims. YOu send your army all around the place, kill thousands of people everywhere (you don't ever bother to account for them) and don't expect that some resentment will be felt elsewhere.
Honestly, get real.
What many people are saying is that the system does not show a friendly attitude, combine that with the horrendous reception you have when arriving to US airports (I have seen things that really make me puke) and you have a recipe for disenfranchisement.
I used to visit the US around once or twice a year, but every time it became more trying, nowadays you are treated like a potential criminal, with a record of your entries, your laptop can be confiscated without any reason and without you having any possibility of redress and if you are in the unfortunate position of being mistaken as a terrorist (it has happened) then all the bets are off.
Unless all this changes people like me, with a genuine interest to learn more about the US, will not visit your country.
If you class the above as hate is more your problem than anybody else's.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
They have been offered in several occasions regional assemblies and people have voted down the propositions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I guess it's time for us eurotrash to put the same restrictions on US-travellers.
They have no way to know where you have been except the points of entry and departure, and although it is true that hotels take details of your ID you are already in the country and you will not be expelled or jailed or denied entry anymore.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have travelled all around the world.
Form Canada to South Africa, Vietnam, Namibia, all of Western Europe. You name it.
Your immigration procedures are only comparable to those in Vietnam, a communist dictatorship.
If that makes you feel great, all the power to you, if it was my country it would give me pause for thought: it would seem that to be safe you have to emulate totalitarian attitudes.
If you think that poster is lying think again. I go back home frequently and flights with stop overs in the US are cheaper, but just to think about all the draconian, unnecessary procedures (I would be just in transit, no other country I know off needs you to apply for a visa in advance to go on transit) makes me feel sick. Thus I chose to fly using European or Canadian airlines, where I can change planes quickly, efficiently and with minimal fuss.
Every time I flight back home your country loses an average of $1500 that it would gain if the intrusive bureaucracy wasn't so unreasonable.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
As soon as the US put those intrusive policies in place Brazil reciprocated.
Anybody else is treated with the courtesy Brazilians are accorded elsewhere.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
look it up - the prime-minister is always elected by parliament - he's not head of state, some countries elect theirs other have a hereditary monarch
Once you are in the Schengen states you don't have to report with anybody and you can cross the borders without being required to show anything.
I have crossed multiple borders (Germany-Austria, Germany-France, France-Spain, Netherlands-Germany) and never had to show an ID to anybody. I am Mexican btw.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I just don't want to deal with all the bullshit, thus I use Canadian or European airlines.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I love Denny Crane! And yeah, that's my form of gun "control".
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Its called Antarctica. The politicians there are wonderful because they have no jurisdiction there! Plus its so cold any hot air that comes out of them freezes in seconds!
All misspellings and grammatical errors in the above post are intentional and part of my artistic expression.
> Quite a few Americans share your opinion of our government.
As a fellow American, I cannot help but agree with you on that point.
This is not news. This requirement for online "pre-registration" for visa-waiver countries has been around for a while now. And what's the big fuss anyway? Every country has it's requirements for entry by foreign nationals, and the USA is no different.
If you don't like the entry requirements, don't go - simple as that. Visit another country whose entry requirements suit your ideology better.
I for one live in one the visa-waiver countries, and am required to go the USA on occasion for business purposes. I really find the entry requirements to be no more onerous than for any other country I visit that does not require me to obtain a visa first.
Let's get real here. Every sovereign country can set it's own rules. If you don't like them, don't go there. Seems most of the bitching about this is coming from Americans themselves. So "the system is screwed". Why does this surprise you? When do governments not screw up important things like this? It's really not so different where I live, although we're not quite so paranoid about letting in foreigners. Our government just harasses the ones that are already here, and making useful contributions to our country.
This is what I love about /. - you can always be assured that the conspiracy theorists and tinfoil hat brigade will come out charging when these little pseudo-journalistic turds appear.
Seriously, if you don't have internet access you can fill the form in at the airport. Just takes longer.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Everything else in the USA is made in China, why not the politics?
My wife and I are going to the US to visit my mother and sister, I'm a US citizen, she's not, but we're both citizens of a country that is eligible for the visa waver program.
It's only required if you're coming in via the visa waver program(if you get or need a regular visa you don't have to get one).
It literally takes about five minutes to do and asks you substantially less than what they'll ask you to actually enter the country on said program. It's the usual stuff, name, passport number, are you a terrorist, etc. Hell they ask you less than what they'll ask me when I fly in and I have a US passport.
As far as I can tell it's only real purpose appears to be to do a quick preliminary scan of people to see whether they're likely to be rejected as part of the Visa waver program and make them go get an actual visa(which is good cause if you get rejected at the boarder for a visa waver you have to go home).
Yes, if end up not going to the US in the end you've provided DHS with some laregly useless demographic information, but this is really more of a streamlining than anything else. Absolutely everything on the form would already be required and logged for absolutely anyone entering the country, including US citizens.
I speculate that this is to verify all those vulnerable self signed passports, in time.
Huh? The Visa Waiver program is a bilateral deal - the waiver applies going both ways. You don't need a waiver to travel to Japan from the US, just like you don't need a visa to travel to the US from Japan. Same goes for the other waiver countries. You need to fill out entry/exit forms, but that is not the same as a visa.
Wow, a 7 digit ID - let that be a lesson in the perils of procrastination.
You folks don't know the half of it..
My flight to London from Australia went via LA recently. I had to sign a "visa waiver" that basically said I waived all my rights whilst in transit in LA.
I had no intention of entering the USA at all. I was "in transit" from Australia to London.
However, I was directed through USA imigration into the baggage claim area (my baggage didn't leave the plane of course..) and then herded back around immigration into the transit lounge.
At the immigration desk I was photographed and fingerprinted. When I stated that I didn't want to enter the USA and asked why I was being fingerprinted, the immigration officer was quite rude and basically said "What do you have to hide?".
I found the whole incident truly scary and it made me quite sick to my stomach. I will never take any flight that transits the USA ever again and I will certainly never visit the USA.
Two things get me about this.
The first is that the process effectively mixed me (an in-transit passenger) with visitors to the USA _after_ immigration. This is stupidity of the highest level.
The second is that the USA now have my photo and fingerprints on record against my will and I have absolutely no say in how those records are used or stored.
During this experience I had the awful thought that if my photo happened to match some dickhead criminal, I could have been thrown in a USA prison, something that doesn't really appeal to me.
I advise anyone traveling overseas to avoid the USA if at all possible.
Japan's fingerprint screening system can be fooled by putting tape over your fingers. Seriously.
The Ministry of Justice said they'll have to "review the procedures" because there's "still some trial and error going on". I guess one can always hope they'll see the light, but it looks more likely they'll just say "Grab people's hands and make sure there's no tape on them."
I frequently travel to Japan and going through immigration and customs in Japan is so nice compared to coming back the US. The first impression one has of a country is going through immigration and customs. There is no reason why US immigration has to treat everyone as a threat. 99.9999% of everyone entering the US are no threat to the US. Treating everyone including US citizens as a threat is not productive. It just creates hostility to the US. I've entered the US with Japanese friends and the treatment they received from US immigration was so hostile that I'm afraid to ask them to visit me in the US again. This never happens when I go to Japan. We live in a global world now. The US needs to be open more than ever. Treating everyone who enters as a criminal does no one any good.
I was wondering how we were going to win the War on Tourism!
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
From the US, going to Japan requires a pre-approved visa. Leaving Japan requires payment of a tax of some sort. It has been a while, but I don't think there is a payment required for the visa up front.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
I live in Japan, and have done for almost 10 years. I've entered on student, work, and tourist visas. You obviously need to pre-approve for the two former, but the latter is just a matter of getting off the plane.
There is no exit tax. You very well may be thinking of the former airport tax at Kansai International in Osaka. For whatever stupid reason, you had to pay that tax not with the cost of your ticket, but by buying a stupid little 2500-yen ticket that you handed to someone as you entered security screening. This caused a lot of trouble to people who were leaving, gleeful that they had spent every last yen, only to find they needed to produce 2500 yen cash to be able to board the plane!
I don't know how long "a while" it's been for you, but it sounds like it was longer ago than 1998, the first time I came to Japan.
<rolleyes>but you guys must really hate us coming there and exporting our pacific pesos into your economy.</rolleyes>
Athy, athier, athiest.
It makes it easier for them to arrest you and your family and friends with no warrant and detain you indefinitely never having to file a single charge against you while ensuring you are never bothered with a lawyer or court date.
Nothing says freedom and welcome like a police state and their party police.
information from applications will be retained for 12 years, and eventually up to 75 years.
The perils of cheap storage...
OK, a lot of comments from people saying they're not going to the US, and a few comments poking fun at them.
Thing is, I seem to recall reading that foreign tourism in the US has been declining over the last few years. A year or two ago I read that Air New Zealand was planning on flying direct from Auckland to Vancouver, with the stated reason being so people did not have to go through the hassle of US customs and immigration en route!
Make fun of the "I'm not going" comments if you like, but it seems that people really aren't going to the US now.
UK will gladly share any data about after you paid the flight ticket. And in the uk they will shoot you anyway in the metro if you look suspicious (foreign and having some wires)
You will be fine if you go to Disney land, but don't attend any free speech conventions, you will be depressed by the latter.
When I was a young man I worked on ship
that first went to soviet union.I lost my seaman's passport there, but they still let me go out.
next country was US I had my driving license as my only id document, but they let me go on land etc.
"I have travelled all around the world."
So have I.
"Form Canada to South Africa, Vietnam, Namibia, all of Western Europe. You name it."
That's not all around the world.
"Your immigration procedures are only comparable to those in Vietnam, a communist dictatorship."
I see, you think Canada, South Africa, Namibia, Vietnam, and Western Europe equals "all around the world" and are ALSO stupid enough to use the hadful of countries you've been to as some kind of metric.
ALL of the Middle east is worse. China is worse. Israel is worse. North Africa is worse. Italy is worse. Most of Eastern Europe is worse. ALL of Russia is worse. The list goes on, but that's MOST of the world.
In short, YOU HAVEN'T TRAVELED ALL OVER THE WORLD, YOU COMPARISON IS MORONIC, AND YOU'RE A LYING IDIOT
"Every time I flight back home your country loses an average of $1500 that it would gain if the intrusive bureaucracy wasn't so unreasonable."
As I said, you're a lying sack who think his handfull of countries equates to some kind of useful sample.
If yo uhonestly think pretending makes your point, please continue, but frankly, you're full of shit and we both know it.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Like I said...
So I forgot to mention the caveat that you can be detained at the border, but once you're in, you're not going to be arrested and thrown into some secret prison.
5 - 1 = 4
infinity - 1 = infinity
Or perhaps you'd prefer:
Sand gets between your toes.
Beaches are made of sand.
Therefore it can be concluded that beaches get between your toes.
You, sir, have very big toes, if that is the case, or your beaches are very small indeed.